NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you pray? Do you feel that praying actually helps? I think my sig sums up my opinion on the matter, but I'd like to hear people's justifications for prayer.

Prayer is useless and achieves nothing.

I pray often; it brings a sense of focus and peace, and I have actually seen examples of shared prayer working for a third party.

Of course, those who think it worthless get exactly what they put into it.

I don't pray, and I don't think it works.

Do you pray? Do you feel that praying actually helps? I think my sig sums up my opinion on the matter, but I'd like to hear people's justifications for prayer.

Worked about as good for me as sitting down quietly and thinking about things and just knowing there are things to be content with in my life

Every time my son spills something on the carpet I pray to god it comes out.:p

I usually find that talking to somebody who
a) exists, or
b) could actually do something to help the problem,
is far more productive.

Of course, those who think it worthless get exactly what they put into it.

How convenient.

I pray often; it brings a sense of focus and peace, and I have actually seen examples of shared prayer working for a third party.

Of course, those who think it worthless get exactly what they put into it.

How do you know its the prayer helping or if its something else?

Do you pray?

Please, one might as well rub one's mojo bag or dance around the totem.

Prayer doesn't work.

How convenient.

N'est-ce pas, darling. N'est-ce pas.

Prayer is useless and achieves nothing.

Exactly.

How do you know its the prayer helping or if its something else?

Cause and effect.

X is happening.
I and 20 friends pray for Y.
Y happens, with no scientific explanation possible.

Had a friend with Lupus whose immune system was killing her -- her kidneys, liver, etc. were affected with a very severe flare-up and the doctors did not hold out much hope for her surviving.

We prayed, often, and hard, and with rather a large group spread out across the country. On her next visit when they did the tests on her, they said that not only was the flare-up over with, the damage they had seen previously a few weeks earlier was completely healed. "Impossible" was what they called it.

I know people are going to discount it and say a million things about what "really" happened, but that's fine.

Every time my son spills something on the carpet I pray to god it comes out.:p

http://weaselhut.net/cheezweas.gif

Cause and effect.

X is happening.
I and 20 friends pray for Y.
Y happens, with no scientific explanation possible.

Had a friend with Lupus whose immune system was killing her -- her kidneys, liver, etc. were affected with a very severe flare-up and the doctors did not hold out much hope for her surviving.

We prayed, often, and hard, and with rather a large group spread out across the country. On her next visit when they did the tests on her, they said that not only was the flare-up over with, the damage they had seen previously a few weeks earlier was completely healed. "Impossible" was what they called it.

I know people are going to discount it and say a million things about what "really" happened, but that's fine.
Thats one thing I never understood, when things like that happen families always try to get LARGE groups of people

Assuming prayer WAS the motivating factor why would size have anything to do with it?

Cause and effect.

X is happening.
I and 20 friends pray for Y.
Y happens, with no scientific explanation possible.

Had a friend with Lupus whose immune system was killing her -- her kidneys, liver, etc. were affected with a very severe flare-up and the doctors did not hold out much hope for her surviving.

We prayed, often, and hard, and with rather a large group spread out across the country. On her next visit when they did the tests on her, they said that not only was the flare-up over with, the damage they had seen previously a few weeks earlier was completely healed. "Impossible" was what they called it.

I know people are going to discount it and say a million things about what "really" happened, but that's fine.

I contend that it wasn't the prayer. It was Mr. Wicks, who lives in my ear and that only I can see. Dastardly devil, he does this all the time - affects the genetic expression of various cytokines in people's leukocytes in ways science has yet not been able to explain and either leads people to believe it was a fluke or, as he likes to target the believers, the magic of their deity.

But he and I know better - he's such a cheeky monkey.

Thats one thing I never understood, when things like that happen families always try to get LARGE groups of people

Assuming prayer WAS the motivating factor why would size have anything to do with it?

Praydiation, or just Mr. Wicks being a popularity whore.

Thats one thing I never understood, when things like that happen families always try to get LARGE groups of people

Assuming prayer WAS the motivating factor why would size have anything to do with it?

I don't know, really. Perhaps they feel that more people praying means a stronger chance of it being answered?

I contend that it wasn't the prayer. It was Mr. Wicks, who lives in my ear and that only I can see. Dastardly devil, he does this all the time - affects the genetic expression of various cytokines in people's leukocytes in ways science has yet not been able to explain and either leads people to believe it was a fluke or, as he likes to target the believers, the magic of their deity.

But he and I know better - he's such a cheeky monkey.

You can laugh all you like. I care as much for your opinion as you do for mine, and you're as likely to change my opinion as I am yours.

What exactly is the point of prayer if God is supposedly all-knowing? Can't you just think it, without all the mumbling and clasping of hands?

What exactly is the point of prayer if God is supposedly all-knowing? Can't you just think it, without all the mumbling and clasping of hands?

Right, because people couldn't possibly be praying near you without you noticing because they couldn't possibly be silently concentrating on what it is they wish to ask.

:rolleyes:

http://weaselhut.net/cheezweas.gif
aww..

*bows*

Does that mean I get cheese??
Thats one thing I never understood, when things like that happen families always try to get LARGE groups of people

Assuming prayer WAS the motivating factor why would size have anything to do with it?

Probably they think the more people pray about one certain thing the greater chance of god hearing them and answering.

Edit: damn...late
ah well

You can laugh all you like.

Oh, and do I ever! Thank you. :)

I care as much for your opinion as you do for mine, and you're as likely to change my opinion as I am yours.

That's OK, but you should know by now I find taking the piss of superstitions to be a reward all on its own, and I do admit I'd probably miss doing it if there weren't any around. Wouldn't mind the missing, though.

What exactly is the point of prayer if God is supposedly all-knowing? Can't you just think it, without all the mumbling and clasping of hands?

that's a good point.

i reckon prayer is largely pointless, because even if god did exist i think it takes some considerable arrogance to believe that god would answer ones prayers when there is so much ridiculous shit going on in the world to countless millions of people who aren't getting helped out by this omnipotent, omniscient sky fairy.

Right, because people couldn't possibly be praying near you without you noticing because they couldn't possibly be silently concentrating on what it is they wish to ask.

:rolleyes:
All right, all right, I meant the standard visible method of prayer, obviously.

I don't know, really. Perhaps they feel that more people praying means a stronger chance of it being answered?



You can laugh all you like. I care as much for your opinion as you do for mine, and you're as likely to change my opinion as I am yours.
But that does not really make any sense if god is all knowing ... sure I understand the emotional impact it may have on the family I just cant see what possible effect it would have on the healing if it is devinly inspired not psysomatic

Do you pray? Do you feel that praying actually helps? I think my sig sums up my opinion on the matter, but I'd like to hear people's justifications for prayer.
I honestly don't need a "justification" for prayer.

Praying helps to calm the mind and spirit, it lets you focus, and it lets you put an order to your thoughts.

Praying usually is not simply asking God for something. When I pray, I usually thank Him for the things that went right in my day and life. And when I do ask for something, it's usually His guidance, and that He may give me strength to face my daily problems and inner demons, or that He may help others in their struggles and keep a guarding hand over them.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Albrecht_Duerer-Betende_Haendeklein.jpg
So, yes. I do pray, and I do feel that praying actually helps.

aww..

*bows*

Does that mean I get cheese??


Probably they think the more people pray about one certain thing the greater chance of god hearing them and answering.

Edit: damn...late
ah well

But god is omniscient and omnipresent according to the Christian belief system, why would he have any troubles hearing it at all?

Define what you mean by "works" I've found meditation,( which is sort of a component of prayer) does bring a certain sense of peace and stress relief.

If by "works" you mean it contacts the Judeo-Christian deity and persuades he/she/it to help you with your struggles, somehow I doubt it. I will say this, though:

Christians, real dedicated Christians, have got something the rest of us don't seem to. I don't know whether it's because of prayer or what, but you can usually pick out fervent Christians fairly quickly. They're the ones always smiling and they have an incomparable zest for life that seems to radiate from them.

If I thought I could get what the Christians have, I'd certainly be willing to give prayer a shot.

But god is omniscient and omnipresent according to the Christian belief system, why would he have any troubles hearing it at all?

He got an iPod, and the bastard never turns it down or takes out the earphones.


Oh, and there was a study (http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS0002870305006496/abstract) done recently (there have been a few, but this is the first one I found) that showed that being prayed for and not knowing it had no effect on healing, and knowing that you were being prayed for might actually increase your stress level and make you more likely to develop complications...the people who weren't prayed for had the best recovery in the experiment, if I'm reading it correctly. So that kinda blows the whole healing-through-prayer thing out of the water...

But god is omniscient and omnipresent according to the Christian belief system, why would he have any troubles hearing it at all?

He wouldn't. It's just the way people think. If you have more than one person praying for the same exact thing it must mean it's pretty important. So, get more people to pray with you.
Just like if somebody wants to protests something, one person doing it probably won't make a difference. But, have a bunch of people protesting it would get some attention.

Cause and effect.

X is happening.
I and 20 friends pray for Y.
Y happens, with no scientific explanation possible.

Had a friend with Lupus whose immune system was killing her -- her kidneys, liver, etc. were affected with a very severe flare-up and the doctors did not hold out much hope for her surviving.

We prayed, often, and hard, and with rather a large group spread out across the country. On her next visit when they did the tests on her, they said that not only was the flare-up over with, the damage they had seen previously a few weeks earlier was completely healed. "Impossible" was what they called it.

I know people are going to discount it and say a million things about what "really" happened, but that's fine.

Science and religion each have their cop out answers. Religion can say 'It's that way because God did it' Science can say 'we just haven't explained it yet but we're sure there is an explanation'.

No real choice between them. I don't pray, for the record, mainly because I don't believe; that's all there is to it really. So let us drink.

Christians, real dedicated Christians, have got something the rest of us don't seem to. I don't know whether it's because of prayer or what, but you can usually pick out fervent Christians fairly quickly. They're the ones always smiling and they have an incomparable zest for life that seems to radiate from them.

You didn't meet Christians, you met hippies. You can, however, usually pick out fervent Christians fairly quickly, though - they're the ones throwing eggs at you and punching your boyfriend as you're strolling down the street in Moscow, or standing by your mate's funeral carrying signs saying their deity hates you and telling you you're a filthy human being and are going straight to hell. You ain't seen fervent, until you've seen that.

Science and religion each have their cop out answers. Religion can say 'It's that way because God did it' Science can say 'we just haven't explained it yet but we're sure there is an explanation'.

No real choice between them. I don't pray, for the record, mainly because I don't believe; that's all there is to it really. So let us drink.

The difference being that science doesn't stop looking once it gives that answer (and usually finds an explanation, eventually), whereas religion sits on its ass after saying "God did it" and never makes an effort to come up with an explanation that isn't trite and annoying.

But that does not really make any sense if god is all knowing ... sure I understand the emotional impact it may have on the family I just cant see what possible effect it would have on the healing if it is devinly inspired not psysomatic

*shrug*

Let's say for the sake of argument it is merely psychosomatic. So what?
If the prayed-for gets better, whether the actual prayer did it or his belief in the prayer did it, the point is moot. The result is still that they got better.

For the sake of argument, it may have little to do with prayer at all but something to do with a large number of humans willing the same thing to happen. Even if prayer is only a method of focusing, so what? They still feel that sense of focus and peace, and the thing they prayed for still happens.

No real choice between them. I don't pray, for the record, mainly because I don't believe; that's all there is to it really. So let us drink.

*hands Forsakia a flute of champagne*
To us! :)

You didn't meet Christians, you met hippies. You can, however, usually pick out fervent Christians fairly quickly, though - they're the ones throwing eggs at you and punching your boyfriend as you're strolling down the street in Moscow, or standing by your mate's funeral carrying signs saying their deity hates you and telling you you're a filthy human being and are going straight to hell. You ain't seen fervent, until you've seen that.

Funny, I've never done any of that, nor considered it. I guess I didn't get up to that chapter in Fass's Guide to Real Christians.

I know people are going to discount it and say a million things about what "really" happened, but that's fine.

But don't you see that there is a 'natural' explanation for why she got better? Just because we might not be able to explain it (though somebody probably can) doesn't mean God magically fixed it.

Reminds me of the evolution of something like a feather.

"How did it evolve something so complex that only works as a feather when it is completed, if evolution is only bit by bit?"

Just because we don't know what benefit each stage of the feather was is our problem, not natural selection's problem.

But on a side note, the intermediate stages of the evolution of the feather probably acted as some sort of fur or something else to keep the animal warm.

And just for full disclosure, I stole that example from The Atheism Tapes on BBC.

Cause and effect.

X is happening.
I and 20 friends pray for Y.
Y happens, with no scientific explanation possible.

Had a friend with Lupus whose immune system was her -- her kidneys, liver, etc. were affected with a very severe flare-up and the doctors did not hold out much hope for her surviving.

We prayed, often, and hard, and with rather a large group spread out across the country. On her next visit when they did the tests on her, they said that not only was the flare-up over with, the damage they had seen previously a few weeks earlier was completely healed. "Impossible" was what they called it.

I know people are going to discount it and say a million things about what "really" happened, but that's fine.



Ah, but correlation does not imply causality. Just because Y ( your friend being healed in this case) followed X ( Your prayers) does not mean that X caused Y.

I'm certainly glad you're friend was healed, but at the same time, I never can understand folks who buy into faith healing. Just for the sake of argument, let's say Pat Robertson is not a complete charlatan and people can be healed through prayer. Why would God choose to heal John Doe but choose to let Jane Doe die of cancer?

This is the big gaping hole in Christianity's ontological arguments: The problem of theodicy, or why bad things happen to people when ostensibly there's a loving God in Heaven. Un-believers like me have been beating Christians over the head with it for ages. We'll probably continue. Sorry. Nothing personal.

I personally don't think it actually matters whether God exists or not: If religion brings joy to your life, that's really all that matters. If the atheists and agnostics are right, it's not like we're gonna be around after to say " See?!? I told you so!"

He wouldn't. It's just the way people think. If you have more than one person praying for the same exact thing it must mean it's pretty important. So, get more people to pray with you.
Just like if somebody wants to protests something, one person doing it probably won't make a difference. But, have a bunch of people protesting it would get some attention.

So people dont truly understand what the implications of their faith really mean? that one person asking for it should be just as effective as 1000?

God should hear even one prayer reguardless and would know the importance of that person to others without needing to be asked or the point re-enforced

I am not saying this is an excuse to be lazy it it is just that you think people would understand what their faith means and take comfort in believing in a deity that should not have to be cajoled into doing something for them

Who would want to believe in something that is supposedly infinatly good but yet has to be talked into doing the right thing (and it is the "right" thing because in the end apparently the deity decides to help ... it would not do that if it was the wrong thing)

Thats one thing I never understood, when things like that happen families always try to get LARGE groups of people

Assuming prayer WAS the motivating factor why would size have anything to do with it?
sense of community.

What exactly is the point of prayer if God is supposedly all-knowing? Can't you just think it, without all the mumbling and clasping of hands?
You can just think it, but it detracts from the experience for some people I suppose. God is all-knowing and so, He pretty much already knows what's bothering you. That's why I believe that praying is more for people than for God. My husband knows why I had a bad day, but talking to him about it makes me feel better.

and Fass......that's just hurtful.

But don't you see that there is a 'natural' explanation for why she got better? Just because we might not be able to explain it (though somebody probably can) doesn't mean God magically fixed it.
Wow, that sounds like utter faith in science, which told her "it's a mystery". ;) (Note: I am not one of those idiotic ID people).

Reminds me of the evolution of something like a feather.

"How did it evolve something so complex that only works as a feather when it is completed, if evolution is only bit by bit?"

Just because we don't know what benefit each stage of the feather was is our problem, not natural selection's problem.

But on a side note, the intermediate stages of the evolution of the feather probably acted as some sort of fur or something else to keep the animal warm.

And just for full disclosure, I stole that example from The Atheism Tapes on BBC.
Meh, the same way eyes evolved -- in response to the environment, a little at a time.

*shrug*

Let's say for the sake of argument it is merely psychosomatic. So what?
If the prayed-for gets better, whether the actual prayer did it or his belief in the prayer did it, the point is moot. The result is still that they got better.

For the sake of argument, it may have little to do with prayer at all but something to do with a large number of humans willing the same thing to happen. Even if prayer is only a method of focusing, so what? They still feel that sense of focus and peace, and the thing they prayed for still happens.



snip
Thats fine it just seems wierd like in my other post that people want to believe in an "all good" deity that has to be cajoled into something by getting a bunch of people to do it

sense of community.

snip

Thats fine I just dont think I could (working within that framework) believe that it helped at least with the convincing god portion

You didn't meet Christians, you met hippies. You can, however, usually pick out fervent Christians fairly quickly, though - they're the ones throwing eggs at you and punching your boyfriend as you're strolling down the street in Moscow, or standing by your mate's funeral carrying signs saying their deity s you and telling you you're a filthy human being and are going straight to hell. You ain't seen fervent, until you've seen that.


Stop right there. See I don't think those folks ARE real Christians. You haven't met any real Christians, dude. In fact, it sounds like you've only ever had contact with Christianity's radical fringe. If you look at it, most Christians actually consider the theology of the Falwells and Pat Robertsons of this world to be unbiblical and dangerous. Unfortunately, everyone thinks those are the "real Christians" because they get the most press. You know why? Because they're insane and on the fringe!

I've met a mixture of the real Christians and the crazy ones. I'm from the rural South of the US, and my town actually has a fairly large number of real Christians. But we have our Judgement Houses, and our angry fundamentalists too.

I'm sorry these "Christians" have treated you so horribly.

Thats fine I just dont think I could (working within that framework) believe that it helped at least with the convincing god portion

I don't try to convince God to do anything. I pray for wisdom, patience, peace, etc. I know that whatever God's will is is probably right, and that my job is to glorify Him through my life. I don't need to play the game where I try to control God, I need to be the best person I can be. Prayer is a way for me to share with God my thoughts, and to explore my feelings and center myself.

Wow, that sounds like utter faith in science, which told her "it's a mystery". ;) (Note: I am not one of those idiotic ID people).

No, I don't have faith in science. I accept the reality that your friend got better without the interference of a magical, invisible spirit-man who was convinced to save her life by a group of people asking. I'm sure more people have prayed for something similar and it didn't work.

This is going to be rude and smug and all that garbage that goes along with the arrogant atheist asshole stereotype, but I don't care: how can you be so fucking stupid? Are you three? What the hell is wrong with you that you believe such garbage? I really want to know. Was there some tragedy in your life that you couldn't handle without pretending there was some omniscient guy in the clouds pulling all the strings for a reason, and that if you believed in him hard enough it'd all be alright? Seriously, did your mum die suddenly in a car crash or your son from cancer or something? Tell me, please.

Stop right there. See I don't think those folks ARE real Christians. You haven't met any real Christians, dude. In fact, it sounds like you've only ever had contact with Christianity's radical fringe. If you look at it, most Christians actually consider the theology of the Falwells and Pat Robertsons of this world to be unbiblical and dangerous. Unfortunately, everyone thinks those are the "real Christians" because they get the most press. You know why? Because they're insane and on the fringe!

I've met a mixture of the real Christians and the crazy ones. I'm from the rural South of the US, and my town actually has a fairly large number of real Christians. But we have our Judgement Houses, and our angry fundamentalists too.

I'm sorry these "Christians" have treated you so horribly.

They are christians too

I am not saying I believe they represent a large portion of the Christian faith but they are Christian none the less

Funny, I've never done any of that, nor considered it. I guess I didn't get up to that chapter in Fass's Guide to Real Christians.

Maybe you're not just as fervent as you thought. Remember, the likes of me are to have our blood on ourselves and there certainly are Christians out there fervent enough to do what they're told and who love their deity despite his seemingly random cruelties and don't resort to a fluffier, and much more easily and conveniently worshipped, interpretation.

and Fass......that's just hurtful.

Tell it to Matthew Shepard's mother. Too bad her son wasn't a heterosexual soldier, then maybe the less fervent Christians would've cared and showed up with those motorcycles of theirs to protect her from their brethren, hmm? Oh, but he was just a fag, so large scale public outrage and distancing had to wait until someone that could actually be seen as worthy of sympathy was subjected to this fervour. Then came the time to attempt to save face.

I don't try to convince God to do anything. I pray for wisdom, patience, peace, etc. I know that whatever God's will is is probably right, and that my job is to glorify Him through my life. I don't need to play the game where I try to control God, I need to be the best person I can be. Prayer is a way for me to share with God my thoughts, and to explore my feelings and center myself.

Thats cool my question just came up with the large group prayer thing ... that was where my questions were coming from

[QUOTE=Katganistan;12707400]Cause and effect.

X is happening.
I and 20 friends pray for Y.
Y happens, with no scientific explanation possible.

Had a friend with Lupus whose immune system was killing her -- her kidneys, liver, etc. were affected with a very severe flare-up and the doctors did not hold out much hope for her surviving.

We prayed, often, and hard, and with rather a large group spread out across the country. On her next visit when they did the tests on her, they said that not only was the flare-up over with, the damage they had seen previously a few weeks earlier was completely healed. "Impossible" was what they called it.

I know people are going to discount it and say a million things about what "really" happened, but that's fine.

That is merely coincidence. Plenty more people die in such situations despite being prayed for; all that is is luck of the draw.

No, I don't have faith in science. I accept the reality that your friend got better without the interference of a magical, invisible spirit-man who was convinced to save her life by a group of people asking. I'm sure more people have prayed for something similar and it didn't work.

This is going to be rude and smug and all that garbage that goes along with the arrogant atheist asshole stereotype, but I don't care: how can you be so fucking stupid? Are you three? What the hell is wrong with you that you believe such garbage? I really want to know. Was there some tragedy in your life that you couldn't handle without pretending there was some omniscient guy in the clouds pulling all the strings for a reason, and that if you believed in him hard enough it'd all be alright? Seriously, did your mum die suddenly in a car crash or your son from cancer or something? Tell me, please.

Were you so traumatized by your life that my belief is such a threat you need to flame me? Did you not get something you wanted, so you decided to be enraged at anyone who dared to believe in what you don't? Or are you just an angry, nasty person by nature?

Damn, the rabid atheist brigade is out in force today.

Thats cool my question just came up with the large group prayer thing ... that was where my questions were coming from

I think that there are a lot of Christians who think that God is a vending machine, only instead of money you have to promise Him stuff to get what you want.

"I promise if you let me pass this test, I won't ever masturbate while thinking of puppies again"

:p

anyway, I quit praying when I was a kid because I thought it was stupid....

"God, if it's in your will please heal Bobby from his foot odor, we know you have a plan for Bobby's smelly feet"

I figure God is God and God has a plan and I am not going to change it......I mean do people really think God is sitting up there listening to prayers and all of the sudden thinks "OMM (oh, my me) I could heal Bobby of his foot odor! I didn't know! WOW, that is so much better than letting his feet smell!"

:rolleyes:

You didn't meet Christians, you met hippies. You can, however, usually pick out fervent Christians fairly quickly, though - they're the ones throwing eggs at you and punching your boyfriend as you're strolling down the street in Moscow, or standing by your mate's funeral carrying signs saying their deity hates you and telling you you're a filthy human being and are going straight to hell. You ain't seen fervent, until you've seen that.
I wonder who's being more ignorant here. Those so-called "Christians" or you.:rolleyes:
Stop right there. See I don't think those folks ARE real Christians. You haven't met any real Christians, dude. In fact, it sounds like you've only ever had contact with Christianity's radical fringe. If you look at it, most Christians actually consider the theology of the Falwells and Pat Robertsons of this world to be unbiblical and dangerous. Unfortunately, everyone thinks those are the "real Christians" because they get the most press. You know why? Because they're insane and on the fringe!
I've met a mixture of the real Christians and the crazy ones. I'm from the rural South of the US, and my town actually has a fairly large number of real Christians. But we have our Judgement Houses, and our angry fundamentalists too.
I'm sorry these "Christians" have treated you so horribly.
Fass seems to forget that there's idiots in all shapes, colors, and convictions.
I don't try to convince God to do anything. I pray for wisdom, patience, peace, etc. I know that whatever God's will is is probably right, and that my job is to glorify Him through my life. I don't need to play the game where I try to control God, I need to be the best person I can be. Prayer is a way for me to share with God my thoughts, and to explore my feelings and center myself.
Amen.:fluffle:

I think that there are a lot of Christians who think that God is a vending machine, only instead of money you have to promise Him stuff to get what you want.

"I promise if you let me pass this test, I won't ever masturbate while thinking of puppies again"

:p

anyway, I quit praying when I was a kid because I thought it was stupid....

"God, if it's in your will please heal Bobby from his foot odor, we know you have a plan for Bobby's smelly feet"

I figure God is God and God has a plan and I am not going to change it......I mean do people really think God is sitting up there listening to prayers and all of the sudden thinks "OMM (oh, my me) I could heal Bobby of his foot odor! I didn't know! WOW, that is so much better than letting his feet smell!"

:rolleyes:
:D :fluffle:

You rock, Smunk.

I'm a Christian, and I pray. It helps a lot. I used to have chronic depression, but with a lot of self-reflection and prayer, I muscled through it with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Who would want to believe in something that is supposedly infinatly good but yet has to be talked into doing the right thing (and it is the "right" thing because in the end apparently the deity decides to help ... it would not do that if it was the wrong thing)

You are not talking him into doing anything. It's called asking for help.

Were you so traumatized by your life that my belief is such a threat you need to flame me? Did you not get something you wanted, so you decided to be enraged at anyone who dared to believe in what you don't? Or are you just an angry, nasty person by nature?

I'm usually quite mild-mannered and quiet. But two things: 1) this is the internet and 2) I get frustrated over the fact that you chose to be so ignorant. You obviously aren't too poorly-educated, so there must be a reason. And I want to know why.

I think that there are a lot of Christians who think that God is a vending machine, only instead of money you have to promise Him stuff to get what you want.

"I promise if you let me pass this test, I won't ever masturbate while thinking of puppies again"

:p

anyway, I quit praying when I was a kid because I thought it was stupid....

"God, if it's in your will please heal Bobby from his foot odor, we know you have a plan for Bobby's smelly feet"

I figure God is God and God has a plan and I am not going to change it......I mean do people really think God is sitting up there listening to prayers and all of the sudden thinks "OMM (oh, my me) I could heal Bobby of his foot odor! I didn't know! WOW, that is so much better than letting his feet smell!"

:rolleyes:
I agree working within the framework that god knows everything and will always do what is most right then you should never be able to change his mind and there should be no information or perspective you can add that will change what will happen (or change his intervention anyways)

Maybe you're not just as fervent as you thought. Remember, the likes of me are to have our on ourselves and there certainly are Christians out there fervent enough to do what they're told and who love their deity despite his seemingly random cruelties and don't resort to a fluffier, and much more easily and conveniently worshipped, interpretation.



Tell it to Matthew Shepard's mother. Too bad her son wasn't a heterosexual soldier, then maybe the less fervent Christians would've cared and showed up with those motorcycles of theirs to protect her from their brethren, hmm? Oh, but he was just a fag, so large scale public outrage and distancing had to wait until someone that could actually be seen as worthy of sympathy was subjected to this fervour. Then came the time to attempt to save face.



Obviously this is an emotional subject for you. I'm not even gonna say I know what's it's like to be the object of that much hatred. But surely you can see it's not logical to base your opinion of an entire group off of the actions of a radical fringe. That'd be the equivalent of me saying " Oh, those dudes who ed us on 9/11 were Muslims. Therefore, all Muslims must be homicidal maniacs!"

I'll try to find some links to some real Christian organizations. One example I can think of is Jim Wallis's Call to Renewal. There's also Tony Campolo, an ex-professor and liberal Christian activist. I'd recommend his book [I]Speaking My Mind[I]These people are out there. Google em or something. You'll see.

You are not talking him into doing anything. It's called asking for help.

Yet apparently the number of people praying influences his decision. And if he is all-loving and all-knowing why would he need to listen to anyone's calls for help in order to do the right thing, which apparently it is since he is doing it.

Stop right there. See I don't think those folks ARE real Christians.

It isn't uncommon to convince oneself they're not, I've noticed. The truth is much too harsh.

You haven't met any real Christians, dude.

Oh, I've met real Christians. I've been so close to them I got their spittle on me, which was not unintentional on their side, followed by their oh, so loving hands, so don't you dare tell me I haven't met real Christians. I've stared into their frenzied faces and seen what one doesn't like to speak about around the tabernacle.

I'm sorry these "Christians" have treated you so horribly.

No you're not, and neither is any of them. It's my due.

You are not talking him into doing anything. It's called asking for help.

What is the difference between one person asking and 1000? was it your example that took into account persuasive force of a group in protest? I would agree that could be about the only effect (outside of psychosomatic effects) that more people would have

Again what then is the point of getting more people then if it is not to convince?

I'm usually quite mild-mannered and quiet. But two things: 1) this is the internet and 2) I get frustrated over the fact that you chose to be so ignorant. You obviously aren't too poorly-educated, so there must be a reason. And I want to know why.

I could say that you choose to be ignorant for the way that you express your beliefs, but I have too much respect for you -- and for myself.

I suspect my reasons for believing are as personal as yours for not believing -- but I'd seriously look into WHY you are so invested in what I believe, and why it angers you.

I'm usually quite mild-mannered and quiet. But two things: 1) this is the internet and 2) I get frustrated over the fact that you chose to be so ignorant. You obviously aren't too poorly-educated, so there must be a reason. And I want to know why.


I'm going to try to be civil. I'm not trying to flame anyone. But it does seem to me that, by flaming people, you yourself sir, are making yourself to look ignorant. I think we'd all feel better if you could cool it with the flaming.

Thank you.

It's my due.

Wuv you.
:fluffle:

I could say that you choose to be ignorant for the way that you express your beliefs, but I have too much respect for you -- and for myself.

I suspect my reasons for believing are as personal as yours for not believing -- but I'd seriously look into WHY you are so invested in what I believe, and why it angers you.

Okay, I've calmed down. How about I tell you my reasons for not believing and you tell me your reasons for believing?

Obviously this is an emotional subject for you. I'm not even gonna say I know what's it's like to be the object of that much hatred. But surely you can see it's not logical to base your opinion of an entire group off of the actions of a radical fringe. That'd be the equivalent of me saying " Oh, those dudes who ed us on 9/11 were Muslims. Therefore, all Muslims must be homicidal maniacs!"

All Muslims are not homicidal maniacs, just like all Christians aren't. Then there are those that actually follow their religions and see what eggs need to be cracked for their deity to like the omelette.

I'll try to find some links to some real Christian organizations. One example I can think of is Jim Wallis's Call to Renewal. There's also Tony Campolo, an ex-professor and liberal Christian activist. I'd recommend his book [I]Speaking My Mind[I]These people are out there. Google em or something. You'll see.

Or, I can just see what the Bible says about people like me and get all the info I need, no?

Wuv you.
:fluffle:

I would too, if it didn't seem like ya went out of your way to cheese me off, Fass. ;)

That said, I could not possibly care less about who you choose to love, nor would I shun you, hurl things at you, or treat you like some kind of abhorrent monster because of your sexual preferences.

I might pie you for telling me what I believe though. :D

All Muslims are not homicidal maniacs, just like all Christians aren't. Then there are those that actually follow their religions and see what eggs need to be cracked for their deity to like the omelette.



Or, I can just see what the Bible says about people like me and get all the info I need, no?
Note that the Bible says 'love thy neighbour'. The Bible is loaded with contradictions. You can't just pick the ones you dislike and use them as proof all good Christians hate you.

Okay, I've calmed down. How about I tell you my reasons for not believing and you tell me your reasons for believing?

Does it really matter? I've told you in part above why I believe, but you don't accept it. You've characterized me as a child, stupid, and idiotic, so respecting me is pretty much out the door.

Do you pray? Do you feel that praying actually helps? I think my sig sums up my opinion on the matter, but I'd like to hear people's justifications for prayer.

I think that your attitude is an extension of your will, and as such is reflective of your intent.
Difference being, i suspect, that instead of taking responsibility for the next step of intervention yourself, whatever it may be, you are allowing what you assume is a personal appreciation by a "higher power" to give some kind of justice for whatever faculty you don't actually possess.

There's another way of looking at it that's a little darker, but this will suffice for most people's casual perception of things.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with people praying for GOOD for another - i have a problem with people praying for an extension of their own personal fuckups to be manifest through someone or something else.

Prayer, through whatever means, can be the last step before actualization and responsibility, in the case that the realization occurs to you.

Pure as we begin.
Pure as we come in.
Pure as we begin.
Ruled by will alone.

Pure as we begin.
Here we have a stone.
Gather, place, erase so.
Shelter turns to home.

Pure as we begin.
Here we have a stone.
Throw to stay the stranger.
Swore to crush his bones.

Ruled by will alone.

Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Light the way or warm this.
Home we occupy.

Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.

Moved by will alone.
Pure as we begin.

Pure as we begin
Move by will alone.
Leave as we come in.
Pure as light.
Return to one.

Move by will alone.

It isn't uncommon to convince oneself they're not, I've noticed. The truth is much too harsh.



Oh, I've met real Christians. I've been so close to them I got their spittle on me, which was not unintentional on their side, followed by their oh, so loving hands, so don't you dare tell me I haven't met real Christians. I've stared into their frenzied faces and seen what one doesn't like to speak about around the tabernacle.





No you're not, and neither is any of them. It's my due.


I've made an error. I hope you'll forgive me. I don't think I defined my terms. What I meant by "real Christians" are Christians that actaully adhere to the Judeo-Christian code of ethics ( You know, love thy neighbor and love thy God with all your mind, and strength and soul) They're about helping the poor, and the persecuted. They exemplify the love of Christ in their daily lives. I don't think it could be argued that the Christians you have met fall under this category.

I pray often; it brings a sense of focus and peace, and I have actually seen examples of shared prayer working for a third party.

Of course, those who think it worthless get exactly what they put into it.

As an agnostic, I say that if prayer gives you the patience to mod us without banning us all out-of-hand, then it can't be all bad :)

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/godfuse.html

Can't we all just get along?

I suppose its a little like meditation in that its unlikely to actually do anything but if you believe it will you could get a placebo affect.

Note that the Bible says 'love thy neighbour'. The Bible is loaded with contradictions. You can't just pick the ones you dislike and use them as proof all good Christians hate you.

Good example of what a poor moral guide it can be... all knowing deities should not leave contradictory books as their sole source of faith for their religion

That being said some christians feel it is is more loving to their neighbor to inform them of their "sin" then it is to be nice to them ...

Thats fine I dont think it directly contradictory I just think it is detestable

I would too, if it didn't seem like ya went out of your way to cheese me off, Fass. ;)

That said, I could not possibly care less about who you choose to love, nor would I shun you, hurl things at you, or treat you like some kind of abhorrent monster because of your sexual preferences.

I might pie you for telling me what I believe though. :D

It was the "due" part that evoked the fluffle, really. :)

I've made an error. I hope you'll forgive me. I don't think I defined my terms. What I meant by "real Christians" are Christians that actaully adhere to the Judeo-Christian code of ethics ( You know, love thy neighbor and love thy God with all your mind, and strength and soul) They're about helping the poor, and the persecuted. They exemplify the love of Christ in their daily lives. I don't think it could be argued that the Christians you have met fall under this category.

I cited some examples of some "real" Christians in a previous post. Take a look at it, if you want. I think it would help change your mind.

Deuteronomy and Leviticus disagree, at least if you're Jewish.

As an agnostic, I say that if prayer gives you the patience to mod us without banning us all out-of-hand, then it can't be all bad :)

Seconded.

As an agnostic, I say that if prayer gives you the patience to mod us without banning us all out-of-hand, then it can't be all bad :)

:fluffle:

"Give me strength, give me patience....":D

I'm usually quite mild-mannered and quiet. But two things: 1) this is the internet and 2) I get frustrated over the fact that you chose to be so ignorant. You obviously aren't too poorly-educated, so there must be a reason. And I want to know why.
That this is the internet lets you forget manners?
That you get frustrated over some other person's "ignorance" or belief makes you act the way you do?

That is sad. Very much so.
It isn't uncommon to convince oneself they're not, I've noticed. The truth is much too harsh.
The truth is that they have not understood the word and message of Christ, nor are they acting upon it.
Oh, I've met real Christians. I've been so close to them I got their spittle on me, which was not unintentional on their side, followed by their oh, so loving hands, so don't you dare tell me I haven't met real Christians. I've stared into their frenzied faces and seen what one doesn't like to speak about around the tabernacle.
Again, a real Christian true to the words of Jesus Christ would not act the way those people did towards you.
No you're not, and neither is any of them. It's my due.
How would you know?

Note that the Bible says 'love thy neighbour'. The Bible is loaded with contradictions. You can't just pick the ones you dislike and use them as proof all good Christians hate you.

Oh, they love their neighbours, all right. I am just not considered one, so there is no contradiction. "Thou shalt not kill", but then again not soon after "oh, but thou shalt kill these". Every rule has an exemption to confirm it, and they're all into confirmations*.

*Ugh, that was an awful pun, I know. I couldn't help myself.

Does it really matter? I've told you in part above, but you don't accept it.

Where?

I just can't understand why somebody with such a wealth of knowledge at their fingertips would be religious. Seriously, was there a tragedy in your life that made you take comfort in God? Or are you just believing because your parents taught you to? Or does a world without God (and a death without life) scare you? Personally I don't believe because of the fact that the books used as the foundation of the religion/s are merely various previously-told stories mixed up and amalgamated with eachother and re-written to suit the religion's needs. That is the basis of it anyway.

What is the difference between one person asking and 1000? was it your example that took into account persuasive force of a group in protest? I would agree that could be about the only effect (outside of psychosomatic effects) that more people would have

Again what then is the point of getting more people then if it is not to convince?

Yeah..that is the point I made. People tend to think that more in numbers is better.

What is YOUR point?

All Muslims are not homicidal maniacs, just like all Christians aren't. Then there are those that actually follow their religions and see what eggs need to be ed for their deity to like the omelette.



Or, I can just see what the Bible says about people like me and get all the info I need, no?

I'm glad your mind has been changed on that point. Judging from your previous posts, you were definitely under the impression that Christian= maniac.

As to your second point, there are different schools of thought on biblical interpretation.

Originally Posted by Katganistan
Cause and effect.

X is happening.
I and 20 friends pray for Y.
Y happens, with no scientific explanation possible.

Had a friend with Lupus whose immune system was killing her -- her kidneys, liver, etc. were affected with a very severe flare-up and the doctors did not hold out much hope for her surviving.

We prayed, often, and hard, and with rather a large group spread out across the country. On her next visit when they did the tests on her, they said that not only was the flare-up over with, the damage they had seen previously a few weeks earlier was completely healed. "Impossible" was what they called it.

I know people are going to discount it and say a million things about what "really" happened, but that's fine.


That is merely coincidence. Plenty more people die in such situations despite being prayed for; all that is is luck of the draw.

Here's the other problem with this scenario. If there is a God and He/She/It did actually did interfere in this one case simply because a group of people got together and asked Him/Her/It to do so, then said God is a truly reprehensible being, not for this interference, but because He/She/It refuses to help in the thousands, if not millions of other cases where people are also praying and begging for their loved ones to recover. Frankly, I'd rather believe in blind luck than in a God like that one. You can't credit God with the good without blaming God for the indifference.

Oh, they love their neighbours, all right. I am just not considered one, so there is no contradiction. "Thou shalt not kill", but then again not soon after "oh, but thou shalt kill these". Every rule has an exemption to confirm it, and they're all into confirmations*.

*Ugh, that was awful pun, I know. I couldn't help myself. I quite liked it! There's hope for you yet, Fass!
But don't change too much, you're often a voice of reason in a morass of opinion

That this is the internet lets you forget manners?
That you get frustrated over some other person's "ignorance" or belief makes you act the way you do?

That is sad. Very much so.

The truth is that they have not understood the word and message of Christ, nor are they acting upon it.

Again, a real Christian true to the words of Jesus Christ would not act the way those people did towards you.

How would you know?

Bravo. You point it more succintly than I did.

The truth is that they have not understood the word and message of Christ, nor are they acting upon it.

Again, a real Christian true to the words of Jesus Christ would not act the way those people did towards you.

You have a need to convince yourself thereof, I understand that. I, however, don't.

How would you know?

It's just an empty thing people say before they vote Christian Democrat.

Yeah..that is the point I made. People tend to think that more in numbers is better.

What is YOUR point?

MY point was that those that do such working within their framework have what I see as an inconsistent faith

MY point was that those that do such working within their framework have what I see as an inconsistent faith

I think a lot of "Christians" misunderstand Christianity. They see it as a means to an end.

Again, a real Christian true to the words of Jesus Christ would not act the way those people did towards you.

How would you know?
But who gets to make that determination? You? You're going to be the one who judges who are true christians and who aren't? The idea of the "true christian" is an abstract--there's no solid, concrete definition that can be agreed upon by all involved. You might like to say that Phelps isn't a true christian, but you have no objective standard by which to make that determination, and that's the problem with all discussions of this kind. There is no objective standard. The best you can hope to do is say "I think that person is not a good christian," but if you're on the receiving of the spittle, that's little comfort.

MY point was that those that do such working within their framework have what I see as an inconsistent faith

Not inconsistent...just misguided.

Where?

I just can't understand why somebody with such a wealth of knowledge at their fingertips would be religious. Seriously, was there a tragedy in your life that made you take comfort in God? Or are you just believing because your parents taught you to? Or does a world without God (and a death without life) scare you? Personally I don't believe because of the fact that the books used as the foundation of the religion/s are merely various previously-told stories mixed up and amalgamated with eachother and re-written to suit the religion's needs. That is the basis of it anyway.

Why are you fixated on there having to have been a tragedy in my life in order to believe in God? Is it somehow unbelievable if it is not a crutch?

My parents taught me, then said, "You're old enough to choose what you believe." I spent about 15 years after that not believing in anything much, but when I had gone off to college, learned a lot about other belief systems through study, and looked at Christianity with a fresh eye, a lot of it made sense to me. Somehow I didn't get the amazing sense of hatred others attribute to me just for being Christian -- and have been doing a fine old job of displaying themselves.

And no, I didn't go to a Christian college -- unless I'm mistaken it's not the Christian University of New York.

You have a need to convince yourself thereof, I understand that. I, however, don't.



It's just an empty thing people say before they vote Christian Democrat.


I would submit that you seem to have a need to cling to your notions of what Christianity really is. I was actually going to ask you how you knew I wouldn't feel sorry for someone who was treated in the manner you were. Are you omniscient perhaps? Or did God tell you? I thought that we both agreed he doesn't exist.

But who gets to make that determination? You? You're going to be the one who judges who are true christians and who aren't? The idea of the "true christian" is an abstract--there's no solid, concrete definition that can be agreed upon by all involved. You might like to say that Phelps isn't a true christian, but you have no objective standard by which to make that determination, and that's the problem with all discussions of this kind. There is no objective standard. The best you can hope to do is say "I think that person is not a good christian," but if you're on the receiving of the spittle, that's little comfort.

I agree that what makes a "true" Christian is subjective. But I think we can objectively determine whether Phelps practices the Golden Rule, the centerpiece of Judeo-Christian ethics. I haven't asked him, but I think we can infer that Phelps himself would not take kindly to being spat upon. Therefore, we can say that he does not follow the golden rule. Even the Christians who do not actually practice the Golden Rule acknowledge that it's in Scripture and we should try to abide by it.

I think a lot of "Christians" misunderstand Christianity. They see it as a means to an end.

Expound. What is their end? Do you mean the Falwells and folks like that who just use it to gain political power?

I'm glad your mind has been changed on that point. Judging from your previous posts, you were definitely under the impression that Christian= maniac.

We're talking about real Christians here, not just Christians.

As to your second point, there are different schools of thought on biblical interpretation.

It's pretty straightforward to me:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"

"And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the sodomites out of the land[...]"

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.[...] Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And so on... Now call me crazy, but I see a pattern forming here, right from OT stretching into NT. Yes, even if some Christians like to claim that they don't need to pay attention to the OT, the NT still says I am worthy of death.

How cosy.

Why are you fixated on there having to have been a tragedy in my life in order to believe in God? Is it somehow unbelievable if it is not a crutch?

Even if it wasn't in reaction to some sort of tragedy, I view it as a crutch in general. Whether it be because the person is afraid of death, scared that the world would be meaningless without a God etc. Obviously you aren't going to feel that way because, apparently, you believe in him. (Yes, as you might have guessed, that condescending 'apparently' was added intentionally to suggest that you might not actually believe- but push this thought away because it is easier to say "God did it")

My parents taught me, then said, "You're old enough to choose what you believe." I spent about 15 years after that not believing in anything much, but when I had gone off to college, learned a lot about other belief systems through study, and looked at Christianity with a fresh eye, a lot of it made sense to me.

So why did you return to Christianity? Why not Islam or Judaism? What makes more sense about Christianity?

Somehow I didn't get the amazing sense of hatred others attribute to me just for being Christian -- and have been doing a fine old job of displaying themselves.

I don't hate you because you're Christian. I hate you because you are a well-educated person with an amazing amount of resources available but still believe in something so ridiculous. If you were some dirt-poor farmer living in a developing country who was indoctrinated by your parents during your four years of schooling then I wouldn't hold it against you.

Expound. What is their end? Do you mean the Falwells and folks like that who just use it to gain political power?

I mean 90% of the Christians I encounter. They think that going to heaven is the goal of Christianity.....or more accurately avoiding hell. Other than that, a lot of them seem to think that God is there to make their lives better.

We're talking about real Christians here, not just Christians.



It's pretty straightforward to me:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"

"And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the sodomites out of the land[...]"

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.[...] Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And so on... Now call me crazy, but I see a pattern forming here, right from OT stretching into NT. Yes, even if some Christians like to claim that they don't need to pay attention to the OT, the NT still says I am worthy of death.

How cosy.

according to the Bible everyone is worthy of death.

I would submit that you seem to have a need to cling to your notions of what Christianity really is.

I need not cling. I need only kiss my boyfriend on the street, and, whoops, those real Christians will somehow materialise. Doesn't require any effort on my part.

I was actually going to ask you how you knew I wouldn't feel sorry for someone who was treated in the manner you were. Are you omniscient perhaps? Or did God tell you? I thought that we both agreed he doesn't exist.

As I said, it's just an empty pleasantry that serves more to comfort he who says it than the one it is directed towards.

I don't hate you because you're Christian. I hate you because you are a well-educated person with an amazing amount of resources available but still believe in something so ridiculous.
how very tolerant. how do you expect anything better of the "stupid Christians" if you can't keep your own hatred and close mindedness in check?

I don't hate you because you're Christian. I hate you because you are a well-educated person with an amazing amount of resources available but still believe in something so ridiculous. If you were some dirt-poor farmer living in a developing country who was indoctrinated by your parents during your four years of schooling then I wouldn't hold it against you.

Marvelous. You hate me for my beliefs.
What a winning argument for being an atheist -- that you are so unable to accept someone else's beliefs you hate them for them.

Fortunately, I know tons of atheists without such extreme, ignorant views.

Good day, sir. Good luck with that hating people thing. All that negativity isn't doing a blessed thing to me -- but it certainly seems to be eating you alive.

I keep a rock in my possesion that keeps away tiger attacks. True, wild tigers aren't around in north america, but who says it isn't helping?:rolleyes:

But, if a tiger escapes the zoo, somehow finds it's way to my house, breaks in and attacks me, then the rock didn't do anything.:(

I look at prayer the same way, but I do wish strengh for those going through tough times and they realize that, it give them a reason to strive for a happy ending.

Not inconsistent...just misguided.
No inconsistent with the idea of an all knowing all loving god ...

according to the Bible everyone is worthy of death.

You don't have to tell me twice - the whole religion is about waiting for most people to be culled by a sword-wielding Jesus. Some, apparently, can just be made to dispense with the waiting and be dealt with at once.

according to the Bible everyone is worthy of death.

Which is kind of ridiculous, don't you think? Especially when it comes to newborns--they didn't do anything that warranted death. They haven't been around long enough. Which is why I tend to think that the Bible is, like most other ancient texts, a collection of the thoughts of people trying to make sense of a world they didn't understand, and anthropomorphizing it to help.

according to the Bible everyone is worthy of death.

But not all are worthy of being killed by another human being early

If all are going to die some day what is the point of the book pointing out which ones should die earlier?

We're talking about real Christians here, not just Christians.

If you'll recall, I've been trying to convince you this entire time that you're definition of "real" Christianity is misguided. Just to clear things up, just tell me straight up, why is it that Phelps's or Falwell's brand of Christianity is the "real" one? I'm sincerely curious. So many people have this fallacious assumption ingrained in their heads that all Christians are monsters. I'm not a Christian, but people I care about are; and it makes me sick to see people make assertions like this: Christians everybody! They're all wackos!

If you'll recall, I too have had contact with radical, fundamentalist Christians. Not as bad as yours, but I've been to Judgement Houses and had people tell me I'm going to hell. Definitely not as bad as what you went through, but not a nice thing to have said about me.

It's pretty straightforward to me:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to ; their shall be upon them"

"And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the sodomites out of the land[...]"

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.[...] Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of , not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And so on... Now call me crazy, but I see a pattern forming here, right from OT stretching into NT. Yes, even if some Christians like to claim that they don't need to pay attention to the OT, the NT still says I am worthy of .

How cosy.

Read Speaking My Mind by Tony Campolo. That can explain the liberal wing of Christianity's view on the subject much better than I can.

Marvelous. You hate me for my beliefs.

For what it's worth, I don't hate you. Hate is so labour-intensive, and requires commitment.

You don't have to tell me twice - the whole religion is about waiting for most people to be culled by a sword-wielding Jesus. Some, apparently, can just be made to dispense with the waiting and be dealt with at once.

have I done something to offend you lately or are you in a really bad mood or is this pity party just entertaining for you?

I am starting to get bored with it.

But not all are worthy of being killed by another human being early

If all are going to die some day what is the point of the book pointing out which ones should die earlier?

I don't think that anyone is worthy of being killed by another human early, but that's my own inconsistency.

I actually go out into the woods (with 13 acres of land it's easy for me to completely surround myself in nature) and sit down by the small river, and just meditate. I just take a few deep breath and just relax and depending on what is going on in my life, I either ask for answers, guidance, I ask the Divinity to help a friend, or sometimes I'm just there to reflect on my life so far and recent events. It really is relaxing and I enjoy doing it. I don't do it on a schedule but I usually end up doing it like once a week.

Marvelous. You hate me for my beliefs.
What a winning argument for being an atheist -- that you are so unable to accept someone else's beliefs you hate them for them.

Fortunately, I know tons of atheists without such extreme, ignorant views.

Good day, sir. Good luck with that hating people thing. All that negativity isn't doing a blessed thing to me -- but it certainly seems to be eating you alive.

It is now, but as soon as I close this window I will forget about how deluded and ignorant you are and go on living my life. And for the record I'm agnostic.

For what it's worth, I don't hate you. Hate is so labour-intensive, and requires commitment.

Fass, the remark was not directed at you, but at Proggressica. I'd like to think that we can disagree vehemently and NOT dislike each other.

I don't think that anyone is worthy of being killed by another human early, but that's my own inconsistency.

Personally I think it is a good thing that you believe that :)

Which is kind of ridiculous, don't you think? Especially when it comes to newborns--they didn't do anything that warranted death. They haven't been around long enough.
not ridiculous, it's difficult for me to explain though, especially to someone who isn't working with the same frame of mind/philosophy.


Which is why I tend to think that the Bible is, like most other ancient texts, a collection of the thoughts of people trying to make sense of a world they didn't understand, and anthropomorphizing it to help.
could be.

It is now, but as soon as I close this window I will forget about how deluded and ignorant you are and go on living my life. And for the record I'm agnostic.

And, apparently, so threatened by me that you need to hate me.
Lord knows why I should be so important in your life.
I pity your ignorance and how empty your life must be that you can attack others and 'hate' them, and justify it by implying it is their problem and not yours.

Yes, forgetting me -- the ultimate cop-out, pretending that you didn't just lose your rag for no good reason. Unless you're admitting that you're also trolling, and trying to get a reaction rather than expressing your own views?

You don't have to tell me twice - the whole religion is about waiting for most people to be culled by a sword-wielding Jesus. Some, apparently, can just be made to dispense with the waiting and be dealt with at once.


I'm assuming you are referring to the dispensationalist brand of Christianity. Tim LaHaye and his ilk. The ones obsessed with the "Rapture". If you look at the Bible, their theology has no biblical basis whatsoever. It was all made up by this English preacher named John Darby in the 1800s.

And, apparently, so threatened by me that you need to hate me.
Lord knows why I should be so important in your life.

insecurity. people who are secure in their thoughts, opinions, and beliefs have little reason to protest so loudly someone who is contrary to their own understanding.

have I done something to offend you lately

Not that I've noticed, no.

or are you in a really bad mood

Not particularly, although I have been a bit peckish for some Cashews all night.

or is this pity party just entertaining for you?

Pity? I assure you, I pity myself not in the least in this respect (not having those Cashews is bitch, though, I'll give you that). Why, do you think I should pity myself on account of your religion?

I am starting to get bored with it.

Perhaps you should start noticing I am not here to alleviate your ennui. Would you like me to try, though?

It is now, but as soon as I close this window I will forget about how deluded and ignorant you are and go on living my life. And for the record I'm agnostic.


HUZZAH! Looks like Progressica's gone! What a relief...

Fass, the remark was not directed at you, but at Proggressica. I'd like to think that we can disagree vehemently and NOT dislike each other.

We can "thumb" on that. It's a Swedish kid thing - when you put your thumb against my thumb, that's like we've come to a super important agreement.

Not that I've noticed, no.
oh good. ;)



Not particularly, although I have been a bit peckish for some Cashews all night.
that's funny, I just had some *offers Fass some cashews*



Pity? I assure you, I pity myself not in the least in this respect (not having those Cashews is bitch, though, I'll give you that). Why, do you think I should pity myself on account of your religion?
I don't think you should, I think you have set yourself up as the victim and me as the attacker.....and while it may be true that you are a victim of sorts, I didn't attack you, and yet you say hurtful things about me.

Perhaps you should start noticing I am not here to alleviate your ennui. Would you like me to try, though?
will it hurt doctor?

:fluffle:

"Give me strength, give me patience....":D
"...and give it to me now!" :p
Bravo. You point it more succintly than I did.
Thanks. ;)
You have a need to convince yourself thereof, I understand that. I, however, don't.
Stop trying to tell people what they think or have need of.
It's just an empty thing people say before they vote Christian Democrat.
Well, too bad for your little scheme that I've never voted for the Christian Democrats in my life and never will. :rolleyes:
But who gets to make that determination? You? You're going to be the one who judges who are true christians and who aren't? The idea of the "true christian" is an abstract--there's no solid, concrete definition that can be agreed upon by all involved. You might like to say that Phelps isn't a true christian, but you have no objective standard by which to make that determination, and that's the problem with all discussions of this kind. There is no objective standard. The best you can hope to do is say "I think that person is not a good christian," but if you're on the receiving of the spittle, that's little comfort.
Well, first off - I try to follow the "Judge not lest you be judged" and also try to lead by example in following the Golden Rule and the passage I chose for my Babtism: "God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." (1 Jn 4:16).
But it is fairly obvious to tell by people's behavior whether they act upon the teachings of Christ or whether they stray from the righteous path of which Jesus was the shining example.
Why are you fixated on there having to have been a tragedy in my life in order to believe in God? Is it somehow unbelievable if it is not a crutch?
I have found my belief in God not because something tragic has happened to me but because I started appreciating the perfection of His creation.
My parents taught me, then said, "You're old enough to choose what you believe."
Mine did the same. We are Lutherans, but I went to a Catholic kindergarden.
And it's not like they tried to indoctrinate me or force any beliefs onto me. It was I who could and did ask them the questions that lead to my present-day belief.
I was babtized when I was 14, before I was confirmed. So the choice really was up to me and only me.
I agree that what makes a "true" Christian is subjective. But I think we can objectively determine whether Phelps practices the Golden Rule, the centerpiece of Judeo-Christian ethics. I haven't asked him, but I think we can infer that Phelps himself would not take kindly to being spat upon. Therefore, we can say that he does not follow the golden rule. Even the Christians who do not actually practice the Golden Rule acknowledge that it's in Scripture and we should try to abide by it.
He, this time you got it down better than I did. ;)

not ridiculous, it's difficult for me to explain though, especially to someone who isn't working with the same frame of mind/philosophy.
I understand the concept of original sin--I was raised as a fundamentalist christian and can quote scripture with the best of them, though I'm a little rustier these days. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god..." for instance. My suggestion is that a group seeking to understand the concept of infant mortality, with no way to explain the concept in an empirical, case-and-effect sort of way, might latch onto the idea that displeasing a God results in death. The Bible says so, after all, in Ezekiel. "The wages of sin is death." And so if you can come up with a tale of sin being the lot of every human, then infant mortality makes more sense to your worldview.

We can "thumb" on that. It's a Swedish kid thing - when you put your thumb against my thumb, that's like we've come to a super important agreement.

Interesting. We have something similar, but with pinkies.

We can "thumb" on that. It's a Swedish kid thing - when you put your thumb against my thumb, that's like we've come to a super important agreement.

We have a similar thing here -- we lock pinkies. It's called a "pinky swear."
:D

And, apparently, so threatened by me that you need to hate me.
Lord knows why I should be so important in your life.
I pity your ignorance and how empty your life must be that you can attack others and 'hate' them, and justify it by implying it is their problem and not yours.

I am not threatened by you (can't see why I would be), nor do I hate you as a person since you seem reasonable and a nice person while I'm obviously coming off as quite the asshole. I do however hate the fact that, despite all your privileges, you continue to delude yourself. Just as I don't hate my friend who smokes, but I hate the fact that he thinks he can stop smoking when he turns 30 and it will not have any adverse health affects.

I'm just simply fascinated in why you believe in God, and the fact that you don't have a reasonable explanation, and the ignorance that entails, pisses me off as I value rationality. Same reason I get pissed off that random people believe one of mankind's greatest accomplishments, the moon landing, was a hoax.

Sorry I came off as such an asshole, but I am still yet to see any valid reason for your belief.

Do you pray? Do you feel that praying actually helps? I think my sig sums up my opinion on the matter, but I'd like to hear people's justifications for prayer.

yes, I pray, and what I get out of prayer is some pretty good advice.

of course, my prayers tend to be more conversational and to the layman, it does sound like I'm arguing with myself.

oh and your sig?
The hard work of one does more than the prayers of millions. that depends. the prayers of the millions could be for one person to do the work. :p

I understand the concept of original sin--I was raised as a fundamentalist christian and can quote scripture with the best of them, though I'm a little rustier these days. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god..." for instance. My suggestion is that a group seeking to understand the concept of infant mortality, with no way to explain the concept in an empirical, case-and-effect sort of way, might latch onto the idea that displeasing a God results in death. The Bible says so, after all, in Ezekiel. "The wages of sin is death." And so if you can come up with a tale of sin being the lot of every human, then infant mortality makes more sense to your worldview.
I think as humans we are flawed, which leads to spiritual death. I think a lot of us are already spiritually dead. In fact, we all start out that way. (I sound like a crazy person yeah?)

oh good. ;)

When have you ever offended me? Come off it, don't try to reverse the victimisation here! :P

that's funny, I just had some *offers Fass some cashews*[7quote]

OK, I do hate you a little, now. Just a pinch.

[quote]I don't think you should, I think you have set yourself up as the victim and me as the attacker.....and while it may be true that you are a victim of sorts, I didn't attack you, and yet you say hurtful things about me.

About you? I thought I'd made it clear that I didn't see you as one of the real Christians. You're one of those who go for the easier to worship, fluffier kind that although it doesn't want me dead, will still see as my due me burning for all eternity on the sides of murderers and rapists.

will it hurt doctor?

I did try that awful pun earlier, and it did cause me some physical discomfort bordering on ache, so I can't promise anything. But, here goes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HnAAeHrEmlE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7eorObV6E9U

I love, love, love the Belfast accents!

I am not threatened by you (can't see why I would be), nor do I hate you as a person since you seem reasonable and a nice person while I'm obviously coming off as quite the asshole. I do however hate the fact that, despite all your privileges, you continue to delude yourself. Just as I don't hate my friend who smokes, but I hate the fact that he thinks he can stop smoking when he turns 30 and it will not have any adverse health affects.

I'm just simply fascinated in why you believe in God, and the fact that you don't have a reasonable explanation, and the ignorance that entails, pisses me off as I value rationality. Same reason I get pissed off that random people believe one of mankind's greatest accomplishments, the moon landing, was a hoax.

Sorry I came off as such an asshole, but I am still yet to see any valid reason for your belief.

if you are so convinced that we are delusional, why be agnostic? wouldn't it make more sense for you to be atheist?

No inconsistent with the idea of an all knowing all loving god ...

Hmm..

Well, my parents love me and know when I'm in a crisis. They just choose to let me work it out on my own and not interfere unless I ask them for help. Doesn't mean I am not loved.

Same could be said about god I guess.

Well, first off - I try to follow the "Judge not lest you be judged" and also try to lead by example in following the Golden Rule and the passage I chose for my Babtism: "God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." (1 Jn 4:16).
But it is fairly obvious to tell by people's behavior whether they act upon the teachings of Christ or whether they stray from the righteous path of which Jesus was the shining example.
Here's the problem with that. An asshole like Phelps can make the offensive yet logical argument that those who tolerate and support homosexuals are not true Christians, and that the only way to show them love is to get in their faces and call them sinners. It's the Jesus angry in the temple throwing out the money changers example that they've decided to follow. And who can tell them that they're not truly following the example of Christ as they understand it? That's the problem with religion as a whole--if it were easy to understand and interpret, there wouldn't be this level of disagreement.

About you? I thought I'd made it clear that I didn't see you as one of the real Christians. You're one of those who go for the easier to worship, fluffier kind that although it doesn't want me dead, will still see as my due me burning for all eternity on the sides of murderers and rapists.
what if I told you I don't believe in the burning part?

I did try that awful pun earlier, and it did cause me some physical discomfort bordering on ache, so I can't promise anything. But, here goes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HnAAeHrEmlE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7eorObV6E9U

I love, love, love the Belfast accents!

:p

You didn't meet Christians, you met hippies. You can, however, usually pick out fervent Christians fairly quickly, though - they're the ones throwing eggs at you and punching your boyfriend as you're strolling down the street in Moscow, or standing by your mate's funeral carrying signs saying their deity hates you and telling you you're a filthy human being and are going straight to hell. You ain't seen fervent, until you've seen that.


Don't know what kind of "Christians" you've encountered, but in my book, these are not true Christians. A true Christian would never treat people in this way. These people may be calling themselves Christians, but they've got it wrong.

what if I told you I don't believe in the burning part?

I'd say you'd gone off the edge and jumped into a sea of marshmallow fluff. You know the kind, the white stuff in glass jars imported from the US that goes unsold in the North American food isle at the grocery store because no one dares try it.

:p

How very dare you? Gay, dear? Who, dear? Me, dear? No, dear! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=CKTvbtS3ON0&mode=related&search=) :D

if you are so convinced that we are delusional, why be agnostic? wouldn't it make more sense for you to be atheist?

Delusional for following a religion. I don't see that as conflicting with agnosticism.

Do you pray? Do you feel that praying actually helps? I think my sig sums up my opinion on the matter, but I'd like to hear people's justifications for prayer.

It may help. Certainly doesnt hurt to try. For ex, we know meditation can change body temperatures (http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html), we know from psychological studies that people's expactations may create biological changes (such as getting drunk from fake alcohol) and we know the placebo effect.
There are ways to change some harsh cold reality....

Don't know what kind of "Christians" you've encountered, but in my book, these are not true Christians. A true Christian would never treat people in this way. These people may be calling themselves Christians, but they've got it wrong.

No True Scotsman fallacy.

The definition of a Christian is one who follows Christ. You don't get to define how he has to.

We have a similar thing here -- we lock pinkies. It's called a "pinky swear."
:D

Interesting. We have something similar, but with pinkies.

Pinkies? When one thinks you people can't get odder...

what if I told you I don't believe in the burning part?

I'd say you're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness. ;)

Delusional for following a religion. I don't see that as conflicting with agnosticism.

So what you're saying is, that while you acknowledge that it's impossible to know if God(dess) exists or not, one who believes in him or her is delusional?

I am not threatened by you (can't see why I would be), nor do I you as a person since you seem reasonable and a nice person while I'm obviously coming off as quite the . I do however the fact that, despite all your privileges, you continue to delude yourself. Just as I don't my friend who smokes, but I the fact that he thinks he can stop smoking when he turns 30 and it will not have any adverse health affects.

I'm just simply fascinated in why you believe in God, and the fact that you don't have a reasonable explanation, and the ignorance that entails, es me off as I value rationality. Same reason I get ed off that random people believe one of mankind's greatest accomplishments, the moon landing, was a hoax.

Sorry I came off as such an , but I am still yet to see any valid reason for your belief.



Ah, so you don't Christians as such, but you pity them. Hmm. I think someone raised this point earlier, but you have said you are agnostic, yes? As I understand it, being agnostic means you reserve judgement on whether there's a God or not. We cannot say for certain fact God does not exist, therefore agnostics place themselves in the undecided column. So you are castigating people for believing in God, and yet you acknowledge that he might exist? Interesting...

Pinkies? When one thinks you people can't get odder...

Well a Iranian friend once told me that giving someone the thumbs up in Iran is analogous to flipping the bird over here.

Maybe they're just trying to avoid pissing off Iranians.

Well a Iranian friend once told me that giving someone the thumbs up in Iran is analogous to flipping the bird over here.

Maybe they're just trying to avoid pissing off Iranians.

One Iranian once told me that one of their naughtier insults translated into "your dad's dick is twirling". I must say, I would've been impressed to see that.

So what you're saying is, that while you acknowledge that it's impossible to know if God(dess) exists or not, one who believes in him or her is delusional?

No. You can believe in some sort of creator if you want, but somebody believing in any sort of religion that has any sort of structure or core set of beliefs that followers must accept is delusional since there the religion is just based on pure bullshit. It is a very ambiguous agnosticism, mine. I'm open to believing there could have been a guiding hand, but making any assumptions about his/her/its form or wishes etc is useless and delusional.

One Iranian once told me that one of their naughtier insults translated into "your dad's dick is twirling". I must say, I would've been impressed to see that.

That must take quite a bit of effort and muscular control.

Is that even physically doable on your own?

Here's the problem with that. An like Phelps can make the offensive yet logical argument that those who tolerate and support homosexuals are not true Christians, and that the only way to show them love is to get in their faces and call them sinners. It's the Jesus angry in the temple throwing out the money changers example that they've decided to follow. And who can tell them that they're not truly following the example of Christ as they understand it? That's the problem with religion as a whole--if it were easy to understand and interpret, there wouldn't be this level of disagreement.

I agree with that last bit, but to my knowledge Phelps isn't trying to show anyone love. Even Pat Robertson at least tries to proselytize folks. Phelps doesn't even bother. He's one of those Calvinists, who believe in predestination. He's just telling people "Hey, you're not destined to go to Heaven-- boy it sucks to be you!" Phelps is so outside the mainstream that he's even got folks like Robertson ticked at him. But I think it's because he's a Calvinist, and not that he does all the things he does.

I'd say you're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness. ;)

not so much. I am familiar with their beliefs, my understanding doesn't mesh well with theirs.

I totally believe hell is real, I just think that it's misunderstood.

Ah, so you don't Christians as such, but you pity them. Hmm. I think someone raised this point earlier, but you have said you are agnostic, yes? As I understand it, being agnostic means you reserve judgement on whether there's a God or not. We cannot say for certain fact God does not exist, therefore agnostics place themselves in the undecided column. So you are castigating people for believing in God, and yet you acknowledge that he might exist? Interesting...

Slightly different beliefs than those you seem to be associating with agnosticism, which is fair enough since definitions regarding religions usually differ between each person. See my previous post please.

No. You can believe in some sort of creator if you want, but somebody believing in any sort of religion that has any sort of structure or core set of beliefs that followers must accept is delusional since there the religion is just based on pure bullshit. It is a very ambiguous agnosticism, mine. I'm open to believing there could have been a guiding hand, but making any assumptions about his/her/its form or wishes etc is useless and delusional.

I suppose you could take that perspective. Though I'd imagine that having belief in a deity would require at least some attachment of qualities.

Ah, so you don't Christians as such, but you pity them. Hmm. I think someone raised this point earlier, but you have said you are agnostic, yes? As I understand it, being agnostic means you reserve judgement on whether there's a God or not. We cannot say for certain fact God does not exist, therefore agnostics place themselves in the undecided column. So you are castigating people for believing in God, and yet you acknowledge that he might exist? Interesting...

I don't want to speak for Progressica, but I am going to point out the christianity-centric view you're expressing, because in essence you're saying that an agnostic, someone who is unwilling to take a position on the existence of god or gods can't say that christianity is silly as a belief system, when the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible, as an agnostic, to point to logical flaws in the doctrine of any christian church that accepts the infallibility of the Bible, and dismiss it as silly.

I actually go out into the woods (with 13 acres of land it's easy for me to completely surround myself in nature) and sit down by the small river, and just meditate. I just take a few deep breath and just relax and depending on what is going on in my life, I either ask for answers, guidance, I ask the Divinity to help a friend, or sometimes I'm just there to reflect on my life so far and recent events. It really is relaxing and I enjoy doing it. I don't do it on a schedule but I usually end up doing it like once a week.
That's wonderful. http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/MeditatingSmiley.gif
I am not threatened by you (can't see why I would be), nor do I hate you as a person since you seem reasonable and a nice person while I'm obviously coming off as quite the asshole. I do however hate the fact that, despite all your privileges, you continue to delude yourself. Just as I don't hate my friend who smokes, but I hate the fact that he thinks he can stop smoking when he turns 30 and it will not have any adverse health affects.
I'm just simply fascinated in why you believe in God, and the fact that you don't have a reasonable explanation, and the ignorance that entails, pisses me off as I value rationality. Same reason I get pissed off that random people believe one of mankind's greatest accomplishments, the moon landing, was a hoax.
Sorry I came off as such an asshole, but I am still yet to see any valid reason for your belief.
You really need to learn tolerance and learn to simply accept things, even though you might not understand them, be they reasonable to you or not.

Why should any believer have to justify their convictions?

I'm not asking you to justify your position either - even though I cannot understand it, either.

If you were honestly interested you wouldn't be spewing all this hatred for no apparent reason.

You really have a strange way to show your fascination.
Here's the problem with that. An asshole like Phelps can make the offensive yet logical argument that those who tolerate and support homosexuals are not true Christians, and that the only way to show them love is to get in their faces and call them sinners. It's the Jesus angry in the temple throwing out the money changers example that they've decided to follow. And who can tell them that they're not truly following the example of Christ as they understand it? That's the problem with religion as a whole--if it were easy to understand and interpret, there wouldn't be this level of disagreement.
Would it surprise you if I said I agreed? Well, I do - and like you said, it's not easy to understand.
I just feel that it's wrong and not what I consider my Christian belief to stand for. I'm afraid that is all I can offer when it comes to those hateful people like Phelps & Co. ;)

That must take quite a bit of effort and muscular control.

Is that even physically doable on your own?

I found it quite easy when flaccid - you sort of just have to gyrate your hips and the penis will follow. Erect, though, I can only make it move up and down and slightly side to side, but never in a full circle. Guess I should continue practising.

I don't want to speak for Progressica, but I am going to point out the christianity-centric view you're expressing, because in essence you're saying that an agnostic, someone who is unwilling to take a position on the existence of god or gods can't say that christianity is silly as a belief system, when the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible, as an agnostic, to point to logical flaws in the doctrine of any christian church that accepts the infallibility of the Bible, and dismiss it as silly.


You are right. Attacking religion is not the same thing as attacking belief in God, although I think folks who believe in God but are not attached to a religion are few and far between. My post was fallacious. Progressica, accept my apology.

not so much. I am familiar with their beliefs, my understanding doesn't mesh well with theirs.

I totally believe hell is real, I just think that it's misunderstood.

I know. I was just teasing. As far as I know, the JWs are the only major sect that doesn't believe in a burning hell, but I could certainly be wrong. They look at death as the ultimate punishment because it causes separation from God, and believe no loving God would ever torture someone for eternity because of sins committed during a limited life on earth. It offends their sense of God as the embodiment of justice.

I found it quite easy when flaccid - you sort of just have to gyrate your hips and the penis will follow. Erect, though, I can only make it move up and down and slightly side to side, but never in a full circle. Guess I should continue practising.

I've had the same experience...wait, why are we having this conversation? :eek:

I found it quite easy when flaccid - you sort of just have to gyrate your hips and the penis will follow. Erect, though, I can only make it move up and down and slightly side to side, but never in a full circle. Guess I should continue practising.
:eek: it works with a chubby

I know. I was just teasing. As far as I know, the JWs are the only major sect that doesn't believe in a burning hell, but I could certainly be wrong. They look at death as the ultimate punishment because it causes separation from God, and believe no loving God would ever torture someone for eternity because of sins committed during a limited life on earth. It offends their sense of God as the embodiment of justice.

most of my minor beliefs don't line up with any sect that I know of.

my majors line up mostly with fundamental Christianity, if you stick to the six basic beliefs.

I found it quite easy when flaccid - you sort of just have to gyrate your hips and the penis will follow. Erect, though, I can only make it move up and down and slightly side to side, but never in a full circle. Guess I should continue practising.
thank you Fass... I now have an image of you standing infront of the mirror practicing this with your member in the various stages of arousal.

"hmm... at the 50% erectile... it makes even circular motions, and offers a modicum of control..."

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

I've had the same experience...wait, why are we having this conversation? :eek:

It's just that cock > prayer. Cock > all, really. So, everything tends to come back to the cock. At least for me.

:eek: it works with a chubby

What's a chubby?

Cause and effect.
Y happens, with no scientific explanation currently available.


Fixed.

There is a purely natural explanation for what happened, we just may not be able to understand it at this particular point in time.

When I don't understand something, it has never really followed to assume that it was the work of a fairy or a god or whatever.

That's wonderful. http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/MeditatingSmiley.gif

You really need to learn tolerance and learn to simply accept things, even though you might not understand them, be they reasonable to you or not.

Why should any believer have to justify their convictions?

I'm not asking you to justify your position either - even though I cannot understand it, either.

If you were honestly interested you wouldn't be spewing all this hatred for no apparent reason.

You really have a strange way to show your fascination.

Would it surprise you if I said I agreed? Well, I do - and like you said, it's not easy to understand.
I just feel that it's wrong and not what I consider my Christian belief to stand for. I'm afraid that is all I can offer when it comes to those ful people like Phelps & Co. ;)

I don't suppose they HAVE to justify their convictions, but most folks want them to. It's human nature to argue and ask people to back up what they believe. The fact that we are all here in this forum is proof of that.

thank you Fass... I now have an image of you standing infront of the mirror practicing this with your member in the various stages of arousal.

"hmm... at the 50% erectile... it makes even circular motions, and offers a modicum of control..."

Don't be absurd. I didn't try it in front of a mirror. Although, different states of arousal, you say? *gets cracking*

most of my minor beliefs don't line up with any sect that I know of.

my majors line up mostly with fundamental Christianity, if you stick to the six basic beliefs.

"Six"? I thought the Golden Rule was pretty much it. *sees a variation of the Spanish Inquisition sketch coming on*

You are right. Attacking religion is not the same thing as attacking belief in God, although I think folks who believe in God but are not attached to a religion are few and far between. My post was fallacious. Progressica, accept my apology.

I'm one of them and I dont think we are few. And even some of those who believe in GOD and are attached to some religion, arent actually attached, as they dont do most/any of the things required by that religion. Think of some of those who never go to church, for example. Some people say they are Christian only because they havent really thought about what they are...

I know. I was just teasing. As far as I know, the JWs are the only major sect that doesn't believe in a burning hell, but I could certainly be wrong. They look at death as the ultimate punishment because it causes separation from God, and believe no loving God would ever torture someone for eternity because of sins committed during a limited life on earth. It offends their sense of God as the embodiment of justice.I had a couple of JW that mention being cast into the circle of fire to me once...

:eek: it works with a chubby

great... now I have an image of every poster here testing this out... :headbang:

Fixed.

There is a purely natural explanation for what happened, we just may not be able to understand it at this particular point in time.

When I don't understand something, it has never really followed to assume that it was the work of a fairy or a god or whatever.

Even if it were, such acts would have to reflect themselves in the real world, and such reflections could be observed and noted.

An 'all-powerful' God, even if transcendent himself, could not do anything without leaving some sort of trace evidence somewhere (or, at least, the concept's probability is so low as to make the word 'impossible' suffice).

And to those who say he's all-powerful and can thus do what he wants, answer me this: Can God make a boulder so huge, even He in His most powerful form cannot lift it?

Pinkies? When one thinks you people can't get odder...

No odder than touching thumbs, surely?

It's just that cock > prayer. Cock > all, really. So, everything tends to come back to the cock. At least for me.
:)

What's a chubby?

it's in between flacid and a stiffy, which is right before an erection.

don't you know your own penis?

I suppose you could take that perspective. Though I'd imagine that having belief in a deity would require at least some attachment of qualities.

Hmm... I don't really see why. You can acknowledge the existence of something without making any assumptions about its form, intentions, values etc.

You really need to learn tolerance and learn to simply accept things, even though you might not understand them, be they reasonable to you or not.

I don't tolerate intentional ignorance, and for that I don't apologise. I don't tolerate people who belief the moon landing was a hoax. Though, in general, I am always very polite and tolerant.

Why should any believer have to justify their convictions?

Well I imagine they'd like to be able to justify them to themself, but if you mean to me then they don't. But this is a discussion form after all so I thought I'd ask.

I'm not asking you to justify your position either - even though I cannot understand it, either.

I'm pretty sure you'd be able to understand my beliefs and why I have them.

If you were honestly interested you wouldn't be spewing all this hatred for no apparent reason.

You really have a strange way to show your fascination.

There is a quite apparent reason, as I've stated numerous times.

It's just that cock > prayer. Cock > all, really. So, everything tends to come back to the cock. At least for me.

Well I dunno about that. My cock definitely > prayer. However, I'm not sure all cock > prayer.

Then again, I don't much like cock.

What's a chubby?

The status immediately preceding a hardon

*gets cracking*
not with a Cat-o-nine tails I hope...
:eek:

"Six"? I thought the Golden Rule was pretty much it. *sees a variation of the Spanish Inquisition sketch coming on*

:p

* Inerrancy of the Scriptures
* The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
* The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith
* The bodily resurrection of Jesus
* The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming)

well, 5, there is some debate about adding a sixth, which would be belief in the trinity.

I had a couple of JW that mention being cast into the circle of fire to me once...
It's a symbolic thing--they're quoting a passage from Revelation which describes Death being cast into the lake of fire. They tie it to their belief that after Armageddon, the faithful will live forever in paradise on earth.

great... now I have an image of every poster here testing this out... :headbang:

What are you waiting for? Posttehpix, kthnx!

Then again, I don't much like cock.
heresy.

Hardon

nope.

heresy.



nope.

I corrected myself, and I much prefer tits.

I corrected myself, and I much prefer tits.

those are boring, everyone has those. Penises on the other hand are one notch down from holy.

No odder than touching thumbs, surely?

Thumbs are cute. Pinkies are the useless digit.

:)

Don't you knows it, girl!

it's in between flacid and a stiffy, which is right before an erection.

don't you know your own penis?

Apparently, I don't know my English penis. Perhaps he needs an English name, too? Ooh, this is gonna keep me pondering for a while, now.

I didn't bother reading 11 pages of thread, so I'm honestly not sure whether we're still n the topic of prayer, and whether it can or cannot be used for healing purposes. I imagine the thread's on something quite different now, but I'll just put my two cents in:

First of all, I have been healed myself. I was in the hospital with E. Coli, and the infection was so severe it pretty much filled up my abdominal cavity, according to my doctor. He showed me the ultrasound of my stomach, and then pointed at all the areas that were now filled with infection. There was quite a lot of it. Our family gets together and prays, asking God to heal me, since the doctors said I didn't have a very good chance of living at all.

Fast forward three days.

They give me another ultrasound, and...nothing! No infection anywhere - not in my stomach, not in my spleen, not in my liver, not in my intestines; every last bit of infection had disappeared. I was completely healed.

That's the first testimony of faith healing I have. The second was when a bunch of people from my university and I went on a missions trip to Slovenija and Italy.

We were having a prayer services at one of the churches we visited, and in the front row there was a lady in a wheelchair with a shriveled foot. Me and two other people were praying with this lady (as in I was standing right beside her) and as we did, I actually saw her foot grow back in front of my eyes. I am dead serious. Her foot LITERALLY grew back into a normal foot in front of us.

Now some would say "oh, there's a logical explanation for that; it couldn't have been God" but honestly, in my mind the only logical explanation for that sort of thing IS God.

Apparently, I don't know my English penis. Perhaps he needs an English name, too? Ooh, this is gonna keep me pondering for a while, now.
:p why do boys name them? it's not like they can answer when you call (believe me I tried)

Thumbs are cute. Pinkies are the useless digit.



Don't you knows it, girl!



Apparently, I don't know my English penis. Perhaps he needs an English name, too? Ooh, this is gonna keep me pondering for a while, now.

"Willy!"

Well I dunno about that. My cock definitely > prayer. However, I'm not sure all cock > prayer.

Then again, I don't much like cock.

How very dare you? It has become increasingly apparent that the only solution to your state of doubt and detriment is of course to try the cock yourself. I guarantee you'll be pleasantly surprised.

:p why do boys name them? it's not like they can answer when you call (believe me I tried)

They may not answer when you call...

those are boring, everyone has those. Penises on the other hand are one notch down from holy.

as for Holey, I preferre... :D er... nevermind... :p

boring. Fass's genitalia is probably some type of royalty......or at least snobby enough to think it is. (okay, I have to talk about the original topic before I get myself into more trouble)

This thread just completely derailed. I'm actually kind of happy I had a hand in it.

"Willy!"

boring. Fass's genitalia is probably some type of royalty......or at least snobby enough to think it is. (okay, I have to talk about the original topic before I get myself into more trouble)

They may not answer when you call...

they seem to perk up when I am around......I never could carry on a coherent conversation with one yet though.....

:p why do boys name them?

Why not?

it's not like they can answer when you call (believe me I tried)

You just haven't perfected your oration, is all. *stops before Katganistan has to get all moddy*

"Willy!"

Too Scottish.

:p

* Inerrancy of the Scriptures
* The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
* The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith
* The bodily resurrection of Jesus
* The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming)

well, 5, there is some debate about adding a sixth, which would be belief in the trinity.

Wait, so no Golden Rule at all? WTF Smunk! (and it does lend itself to the Spanish Inquisition sketch quite well ;))

they seem to perk up when I am around......I never could carry on a coherent conversation with one yet though.....

no ears... so you have to put your lips very, very close in order for them to hear you...

boring. Fass's genitalia is probably some type of royalty......or at least snobby enough to think it is. (okay, I have to talk about the original topic before I get myself into more trouble)

King Willy?

Though, in general, I am always very polite and tolerant.

As you've so ably demonstrated.

How very dare you? It has become increasingly apparent that the only solution to your state of doubt and detriment is of course to try the cock yourself. I guarantee you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I doubt it. Though from conversation with others, you might enjoy mine.

Apparently, I don't know my English penis. Perhaps he needs an English name, too? Ooh, this is gonna keep me pondering for a while, now.
Here's a little song that can help you out now...

Isn't it awfully nice to have a penis?
Isn't it frightfully good to have a dong?
It's swell to have a stiffy.
It's divine to own a dick,
From the tiniest little tadger
To the world's biggest prick.
So, three cheers for your Willy or John Thomas.
Hooray for your one-eyed trouser snake,
Your piece of pork, your wife's best friend,
Your Percy, or your cock.
You can wrap it up in ribbons.
You can slip it in your sock,
But don't take it out in public,
Or they will stick you in the dock,
And you won't come back.

no ears... so you have to put your lips very, very close in order for them to hear you...

Still no ears..can't hear.

They get the topic of the conversation by sensation alone...

Here's a little song that can help you out now...

Monty Python > cock > prayer.

Wait, so no Golden Rule at all? WTF Smunk! (and it does lend itself to the Spanish Inquisition sketch quite well ;))
I believe you will be hard pressed to find any Christian Sect that does not believe in the Golden Rule.

You just haven't perfected your oration, is all. *stops before Katganistan has to get all moddy*


Hee, I was wondering when people would remember I was still around. :D

What exactly is the point of prayer if God is supposedly all-knowing? Can't you just think it, without all the mumbling and clasping of hands?

I very rarely mumble or clasp hands when I pray.

I pray because it's comforting. It's a way to take a very very difficult situation, and give it to someone else for a while.

6 years ago, my daughter was in PICU, dying. She was 2 months old, and has a respiratory virus, and ALSO had pneumonia. She was on a breathing machine. I prayed to give me comfort...not to heal her...I depended on the doctors and nurses to do that.

Now, my 3 year old has a gastrointestinal disorder of unknown variety. I pray that she goes through the day without throwing up everything she's eaten. I pray that she gains weight the way she should, and I pray that she doesn't have to go through any more tests, because any sort of "scopes" aren't fun for an adult, try prepping a 3 year old for a colonoscopy....again, I'm not asking God to cure her, I'm depending on a competent doctor to do that. If prayer is what gets me through the day, who are you to say that it's wrong or useless. It's no more wrong or useless for you to NOT pray.

It always amazes me, how intolerant the athiests of this board are. I very rarely see those who believe in God bashing the belief (or non-belief) of the athiests, yet in every thread like this, the athiests are out in spades, just waiting to jump all over someone who should dare to admit that they might just believe in God. I've also noticed that most of the people here, athiests and theists alike seem to believe that all believers are of the "fundamentalist" variety. While I'm sure that there are some, by no means are all believers fundamentalists.

These are just some observations I've made...take them how you will. I understand that I am not going to make a believer out of anyone, nor is anyone going to make me a "non-believer".

I believe you will be hard pressed to find any Christian Sect that does not believe in the Golden Rule.

But if you're going to have Six Rules, shouldn't it be #1?

Still no ears..can't hear.

They get the topic of the conversation by sensation alone...

Perhaps, like snakes, they feel vibrations.
Oh, maybe that's why they are called trouser snakes?

Hee, I was wondering when people would remember I was still around. :D

I took the lack of Mod-Boots on the back of my head as a sign you were enjoying the banter.

It always amazes me, how intolerant the athiests of this board are. I very rarely see those who believe in God bashing the belief (or non-belief) of the athiests, yet in every thread like this, the athiests are out in spades, just waiting to jump all over someone who should dare to admit that they might just believe in God. I've also noticed that most of the people here, athiests and theists alike seem to believe that all believers are of the "fundamentalist" variety. While I'm sure that there are some, by no means are all believers fundamentalists.

These are just some observations I've made...take them how you will. I understand that I am not going to make a believer out of anyone, nor is anyone going to make me a "non-believer".

It always amazes me when believers come up with this "oh, we are so oppressed by the dirty atheists around here" line. Spare me, please. You guys own the damn world, and we're about 10% at best. We have religion jammed in our damn faces every day by people a lot ruder about it than we ever are in return.

I pray, but I know the Gods are under no obligation to grant it. I just hope my conduct is deemed respectful enough for them to consider honoring my request.

Still no ears..can't hear.

They get the topic of the conversation by sensation alone...
as I said... that's why you have to put your lips very, very close.

the vibrations is what they "hear" by. actual contact conveys more sound vibrations. and you can tell they are hearing you by how much they perk up and pay attention.

and Kat, if I did cross the line, I apologize and will stop now... :(

It always amazes me when believers come up with this "oh, we are so oppressed by the dirty atheists around here" line. Spare me, please. You guys own the damn world, and we're about 10% at best. We have religion jammed in our damn faces every day by people a lot ruder about it than we ever are in return.

Ah, but who here in this thread has told you they hate you for your beliefs, Nazz?

Kat, if I did cross the line, I apologize and will stop now... :(

If you did, I jumped across with both feet a while back.

For those of you who don't believe in faith healing, a question - not out of hostility, but out of curiosity regarding your worldview:

A few pages ago (page 11, I think) I shared the story of being an eye-witness to a crippled lady's shriveled foot growing back to normal before my eyes. To what would you ascribe this phenomenon?

Ah, but who here in this thread has told you they hate you for your beliefs, Nazz?

Oooo! Oooo! Could I hate Nazz for his favourite colour? I'm sure it's the wrong one!

I doubt it. Though from conversation with others, you might enjoy mine.

Pfft! While my versatility is almost perfectly balanced, don't you doubt for a second, boy, that you'd be my bitch.

the vibrations is what they "hear" by. actual contact conveys more sound vibrations. and you can tell they are hearing you by how much they perk up and pay attention.


Ahh..but they can't actually hear what you say. I could put my lips very close and spout off nonsense...or berate it..and it would still perk up like a puppy waiting for a treat.

:p

Pfft! While my versatility is almost perfectly balanced, don't you doubt for a second, boy, that you'd be my bitch.

That sounds like a challenge. A challenge you'd lose.

Ah, but who here in this thread has told you they hate you for your beliefs, Nazz?

I assume you are referencing me. I specifically said I don't hate you, and you seem like a nice person. I just said that I hate the fact that with so much knowledge and so many resources, you don't appear to have a valid reason for your beliefs.

Ah, but who here in this thread has told you they hate you for your beliefs, Nazz?
So I should just let it go because it hasn't happened this time? One time in thousands does not a trend make, Kat.

Do you pray? Do you feel that praying actually helps? I think my sig sums up my opinion on the matter, but I'd like to hear people's justifications for prayer.



Yes I do on both accounts, and by the way ..... your tag should read .... the hard prayer of one does more than the work of millions.

That sounds like a challenge. A challenge you'd lose.

In these matters, I win even if I lose, so caveat ludor. :)

Oooo! Oooo! Could I hate Nazz for his favourite colour? I'm sure it's the wrong one!

Don't be silly. I determined my favorite color by researching and experimenting according to the scientific method. ;)

You have a need to convince yourself thereof, I understand that. I, however, don't. .

I'm afraid that you have mixed up Fundamentalists with ALL Christians.

I posted the other day about The UCC...United Church Of Christ. It's a VERY liberal denomination....basically, we don't care what you do behind closed doors, anyone and everyone is welcome. There are even churches in the denomination that have voted to become "Open and Affirming" meaning that those churches put it out for all to see that we not only allow people who are GLBT, but we WELCOME them.

My church has a lay minister who comes in every time my minister is on vacation. He used to be a she. He preached when he was a woman, and he preaches now...People ask for him to come to the church and preach. Tell me again, how all the Christians hate the gays, because I don't see it.

In these matters, I win even if I lose, so caveat ludor. :)

Touche. I love you, Fass, in a totally platonic fashion.

Edit: You silly, silly pole-smoker.

I'm afraid that you have mixed up Fundamentalists with ALL Christians.

I posted the other day about The UCC...United Church Of Christ. It's a VERY liberal denomination....basically, we don't care what you do behind closed doors, anyone and everyone is welcome. There are even churches in the denomination that have voted to become "Open and Affirming" meaning that those churches put it out for all to see that we not only allow people who are GLBT, but we WELCOME them.

My church has a lay minister who comes in every time my minister is on vacation. He used to be a she. He preached when he was a woman, and he preaches now...People ask for him to come to the church and preach. Tell me again, how all the Christians hate the gays, because I don't see it.

Hmmm, what is the view of UCC on people of other religions and what happens to them in the next life?

I pray. I don't believe that god can physically affect things like she's playing some tabletop game or something. I do believe, though, that she can affect emotions, thoughts and other such things.

For those who don't believe it does anything, fine. Nobody's making you. You probably couldn't tell if I was praying right next to you, either (I think speaking is somewhat superfluous during prayer).

It can't hurt, though. And at least, even if it does nothing else, it's calming.

Edit: Now, if we're going to go into favorite colors, mine is blue. Dark blue, though, none of this panzy sky blue nonsense or dodger blue or any of that crap. And no, I did not arrive at it by scientific method. Blue is the favorite color of most in my family, and I suppose you could attribute it to the University of California, but at this point I think it's really more of a family pride sort of thing. Not rational in any way. But it's a color, it's not supposed to be.

I assume you are referencing me. I specifically said I don't hate you, and you seem like a nice person. I just said that I hate the fact that with so much knowledge and so many resources, you don't appear to have a valid reason for your beliefs.

hmmmm...


I don't hate you because you're Christian. I hate you because you are a well-educated person with an amazing amount of resources available but still believe in something so ridiculous.

I put in bold the part where you specifically said I hate you.

k...carry on.

hmmmm...



I put in bold the part where you specifically said I hate you.

k...carry on.

My bad. I was pretty sure I had written that somewhere but lol. I think it is obvious what I was trying to say though, specifically:

I am not threatened by you (can't see why I would be), nor do I hate you as a person since you seem reasonable and a nice person while I'm obviously coming off as quite the asshole. I do however hate the fact that, despite all your privileges, you continue to delude yourself. Just as I don't hate my friend who smokes, but I hate the fact that he thinks he can stop smoking when he turns 30 and it will not have any adverse health affects.

I'm just simply fascinated in why you believe in God, and the fact that you don't have a reasonable explanation, and the ignorance that entails, pisses me off as I value rationality. Same reason I get pissed off that random people believe one of mankind's greatest accomplishments, the moon landing, was a hoax.

Sorry I came off as such an asshole, but I am still yet to see any valid reason for your belief.

I hate you, too Proggresica. :)

Not really actually. Though your intolerant bigotry saddens me.

No, I don't pray. I don't believe in any gods, so prayer would be a complete waste of time.

I'm afraid that you have mixed up Fundamentalists with ALL Christians.

I posted the other day about The UCC...United Church Of Christ. It's a VERY liberal denomination....basically, we don't care what you do behind closed doors, anyone and everyone is welcome. There are even churches in the denomination that have voted to become "Open and Affirming" meaning that those churches put it out for all to see that we not only allow people who are GLBT, but we WELCOME them.

My church has a lay minister who comes in every time my minister is on vacation. He used to be a she. He preached when he was a woman, and he preaches now...People ask for him to come to the church and preach. Tell me again, how all the Christians hate the gays, because I don't see it.

It's simple, really. You're not real Christians. You don't worship the Christian deity, you worship a very easy to worship distortion of it. Basically, you're trying to have your cake and eat it to: claim to be Christians, but then not really follow the tenets of Christianity which are nothing about "niceness" and all about a very jealous deity that has some very peculiar and taxing demands that it wants fulfilled. Everyone can worship a saint, not everyone can worship a bastard.

Of course, I don't want people to worship a bastard, but I'd like them to know that that's what they're supposed to do, and if they come to the conclusion that they can't stomach it, well, that's the good outcome.

Hmmm, what is the view of UCC on people of other religions and what happens to them in the next life?


I could get very circular, and say that the UCC believes that what happens to other religions is whatever they believe will happen.

In all honesty, I haven't discussed that with my minister. My PERSONAL belief, is that is one lives a good life, regardless of whether they are christian, jewish, muslim, agnostic, athiest...whatever, they will have "everlasting life".

BUT, as I said, I belong to a very liberal church. We sponsored a refugee from somewhere in the middle east, I regret that I don't remember which it was. He came to church on a communion sunday (we take communion once a month...most churches do it on the first sunday of the month) There was never a question of whether this man would take communion.. if he wanted to, it was allowed.




To Nazz....I apologize if you think my comment was out of line. As I stated, it was merely something I have observed. Perhaps I've not been in the "Christians bashing the Athiests" threads, perhaps it just that I believe "to each their own" I don't believe that I can convert you...it's not my job. I also went through a very long period of time when I didn't believe, and came back to the church, because it works for me. It doesn't work for everyone, and that's fine. I just saw a WHOLE lot of ugliness in this thread. I'm all about hearing other peoples opinions. I try to keep mine respectful, and perhaps naively expect others to as well. I don't hate athiests, in fact, I think I'm raising one, as my 6 year old told me the other day that God is illogical. That's her opinion. I don't make her go to church, if she doesn't want to, I don't force my belief or opinion on her. Perhaps she will decide when she's older that God will be an important part of her life, maybe she won't, who knows...it doesn't really matter to me.

It's also important to remember, that each CHURCH in the UCC votes on policy...so, there are many UCC churches that have not adopted the open and affirming policy. I think it's coming, but it will take time for all the churches to be on board.

It's simple, really. You're not real Christians. You don't worship the Christian deity, you worship a very easy to worship distortion of it. Basically, you're trying to have your cake and eat it to: claim to be Christians, but then not really follow the tenets of Christianity which are nothing about "niceness" and all about a very jealous deity that has some very peculiar and taxing demands that it wants fulfilled. Everyone can worship a saint, not everyone can worship a bastard.

Of course, I don't want people to worship a bastard, but I'd like them to know that that's what they're supposed to do, and if they come to the conclusion that they can't stomach it, well, that's the good outcome.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am entitled to mine.

My belief of God is that He is an all loving God. I don't believe in Fire and Brimstone. I believe the Bible was written by men, with the knowledge and societal norms that man had at the time. I don't believe that ANYbody takes the Bible at it's word...even those you call "REAL Christians". If you get the inkling, ask those bigots if they cook their meat to well done. It says they need to in the Bible. Ask them if they wear clothing made from only one fiber. If they wear blends, it's offensive to God. If they offend God, they aren't "Real Christians" It's the ones you call "Real Christians" that pick and choose the things they want to believe, in order to justify their bigotry. I understand you are angry, and you know what, I'd be pretty darn pissed if the way I live my life was so discriminated against. Personally, though, I'd be calling those people what they are, which is a bigot, rather than what they aren't, which is Christian. They are using religion as a shield. Earlier in the thread, "The Golden Rule" was quoted. That is "Do unto others as you would have done to you" It's the basis of Christianity. I have a hard time believing that the people you are referring to would want that behavior "done to them"

I hold NOTHING against people who are gay. My sister and my father are gay. My sister is my daughter's Godmother, and guardian, should something happen to me.

Anyway....you can believe what you want about Christians, I will believe what I do...what you believe doesn't really affect me in any way. I will say I am sorry that you are treated the way you are. To be quite honest, if I found out my sister or father was harassed or treated in such away, I would do everything in my power to have those people found and prosecuted. (the US is fairly serious about hate crimes...or at least that is what I've been led to believe...it might be a bunch of BS)

I assume you are referencing me. I specifically said I don't hate you, and you seem like a nice person. I just said that I hate the fact that with so much knowledge and so many resources, you don't appear to have a valid reason for your beliefs.

I don't hate you because you're Christian. I hate you because you are a well-educated person with an amazing amount of resources available but still believe in something so ridiculous. If you were some dirt-poor farmer living in a developing country who was indoctrinated by your parents during your four years of schooling then I wouldn't hold it against you.

You may have back-pedaled, but all we need do is scroll back for your admission.

You may have back-pedaled, but all we need do is scroll back for your admission.

Then I apologise unreservedly for that.

Sigh, this got out of hand. My bad.

Still kind of on topic though, I don't see why it is apparently so evil to dislike somebody's beliefs. I would never insult somebody because of their race, gender, disability etc. But I don't see why we should need to be so tolerant of other's religious beliefs if they themselves have consciously chosen them. We judge people's non-religious views. For instance illegal immigration. We will criticise someone's belief if they say something like "we should shoot at people trying to cross the border", but for some reason a lot of people see it as taboo to criticise someone's religious choice, merely because it is about religion. That is fucked IMO. Why can't we criticise religious views just as we criticise political views or what sports team we root for?

Then I apologise unreservedly for that.

Sigh, this got out of hand. My bad.

Still kind of on topic though, I don't see why it is apparently so evil to dislike somebody's beliefs. I would never insult somebody because of their race, gender, disability etc. But I don't see why we should need to be so tolerant of other's religious beliefs if they themselves have consciously chosen them. We judge people's non-religious views. For instance illegal immigration. We will criticise someone's belief if they say something like "we should shoot at people trying to cross the border", but for some reason a lot of people see it as taboo to criticise someone's religious choice, merely because it is about religion. That is fucked IMO. Why can't we criticise religious views just as we criticise political views or what sports team we root for?

It is not evil to insult someone's beliefs.

However, suggesting that someone is delusional for having said beliefs is unseemly.

It is not evil to insult someone's beliefs.

However, suggesting that someone is delusional for having said beliefs is unseemly.

lol, yeah. My bad.

But in general I think I was right that for some reason people think it is taboo to insult someone's religion. You could be having quite a nice argumental conversation about an election, then politely try and change it to be about someone's religion, and why they follow it even with x, and they will find it rude.

It is not evil to insult someone's beliefs.

However, suggesting that someone is delusional for having said beliefs is unseemly.

Why? We'd rightly mock anyone who suggested the earth is anything but a sphere, and call them delusional if they continued to argue otherwise. We mock people who continue to claim that Iraq was an imminent threat to the US before the war began, and rightly so.

The problem is that we accord an undue amount of respect to religious beliefs, simply because they're religious, and frankly, I think that's ridiculous. Those beliefs ought to be able to withstand close scrutiny and be subject to the same mockery as any other belief if they don't.

Why? We'd rightly mock anyone who suggested the earth is anything but a sphere, and call them delusional if they continued to argue otherwise. We mock people who continue to claim that Iraq was an imminent threat to the US before the war began, and rightly so.

The problem is that we accord an undue amount of respect to religious beliefs, simply because they're religious, and frankly, I think that's ridiculous. Those beliefs ought to be able to withstand close scrutiny and be subject to the same mockery as any other belief if they don't.

What's you favourite colour?

Why? We'd rightly mock anyone who suggested the earth is anything but a sphere, and call them delusional if they continued to argue otherwise. We mock people who continue to claim that Iraq was an imminent threat to the US before the war began, and rightly so.

The problem is that we accord an undue amount of respect to religious beliefs, simply because they're religious, and frankly, I think that's ridiculous. Those beliefs ought to be able to withstand close scrutiny and be subject to the same mockery as any other belief if they don't.

http://humanities.byu.edu/elc/student/idioms/idioms/images/hit_nail_on_head.jpg

What's you favourite colour?

Are you comparing religious belief to a colour preference? I mean, most believers take the former far more seriously than the latter, and beliefs don't exactly match up with preferences.

But if you really want to know, I prefer green.

Are you comparing religious belief to a colour preference? I mean, most believers take the former far more seriously than the latter, and beliefs don't exactly match up with preferences.

But if you really want to know, I prefer green.

I'm comparing justifying a regious belief with justifying a favourite colour, yes. And arguing with you why red is better than green would be the same. Don't you think?

Why? We'd rightly mock anyone who suggested the earth is anything but a sphere, and call them delusional if they continued to argue otherwise. We mock people who continue to claim that Iraq was an imminent threat to the US before the war began, and rightly so.

Yes, but there is clear evidence to the contrary for those things. There are no arguments against God based in clear evidence to the contrary, so to call someone "delusional" because they believe in God is not only incorrect but a cheap attempt at using an inflammatory term against religious believers.

It's entirely irrational and dishonest. Until you can demonstrate with clear, reproducible evidence to the contrary that there is no God, it is utterly incorrect to call religious belief a delusion. Just because someone believes in something without evidence doesn't make that belief a delusion; in order to be a delusion, it would have to be demonstrably untrue, and we're no closer to showing God is demonstrably untrue than we were 10,000 years ago.

I'm comparing justifying a regious belief with justifying a favourite colour, yes. And arguing with you why red is better than green would be the same. Don't you think?

Not even close. I don't pretend a color preference is based on anything other than my own preference. There's no afterlife involved, no eternal punishment, certainly no attempt by me to proselytize as to why I feel my choice is better, in fact, no attempt to even claim my choice is objectively better than any other. Just that it is my preference, based on nothing other than that. If you think a major religion can fit that bill, you go right ahead.

Why? We'd rightly mock anyone who suggested the earth is anything but a sphere, and call them delusional if they continued to argue otherwise. We mock people who continue to claim that Iraq was an imminent threat to the US before the war began, and rightly so.

The problem is that we accord an undue amount of respect to religious beliefs, simply because they're religious, and frankly, I think that's ridiculous. Those beliefs ought to be able to withstand close scrutiny and be subject to the same mockery as any other belief if they don't.

The difference here being that anyone can fly around the world, thus proving it is indeed a sphere, and not a flat plane with edges. The inspectors went in, and couldn't find any WMDs, thus debunking the claim that Iraq was going to use said weapons on the States.

However, when you're talking about God, to call anyone delusional for believing in Him (or her, or it, depending on the religion) then you've crossed over into the bounds of what seems to be arrogant presumption, seeing as there's no empirical method for testing whether there is a God or not. It's one thing to say "no one can prove or disprove God, therefore you may or may not be wrong"; it's quite another thing to flat out say "there is no possibility of there being a God; all you idiots are delusional". The former sentence is stating truth, while the latter just makes anyone who says it look incredibly arrogant.

Yes, but there is clear evidence to the contrary for those things. There are no arguments against God based in clear evidence to the contrary, so to call someone "delusional" because they believe in God is not only incorrect but a cheap attempt at using an inflammatory term against religious believers.

It's entirely irrational and dishonest. Until you can demonstrate with clear, reproducible evidence to the contrary that there is no God, it is utterly incorrect to call religious belief a delusion.

I don't agree. There is evidence to the contrary for Iraq being a major threat to US homeland security, and there is evidence to the contrary that Christianity (not just the generic 'God') is false. Miles of it. I think it is delusional to believe both that Iraq was a threat and also that the Bible is trustworthy. The point of which is that we should be able to criticise religious beliefs just as we do political beliefs... I believe... lol.

Yes, but there is clear evidence to the contrary for those things. There are no arguments against God based in clear evidence to the contrary, so to call someone "delusional" because they believe in God is not only incorrect but a cheap attempt at using an inflammatory term against religious believers.

It's entirely irrational and dishonest. Until you can demonstrate with clear, reproducible evidence to the contrary that there is no God, it is utterly incorrect to call religious belief a delusion.

Wrong wrong wrong. It's not the atheist's job to prove there is no god. That is the starting point for any rational discussion--and we've been through this before. The beginning point for any empirical discussion is the null set--until there is proof of something, it is assumed that there is nothing there. But for some reason, believers refuse to accept this as a starting point (wonder why?), even though it's the starting point for practically any other discussion of that type. It is the believer's job ot provide proof of an existent god or gods--until that happens, the starting point of the discussion remains unchallenged.

As far as calling someone's beliefs delusional is concerned, I'd say that it's entirely fair to say that someone who believes an unseen force parted the Red Sea at the command of a man with a big stick (and which is contradicted by available archaeological evidence) so that a chosen people could cross on dry land is indeed delusional. I'd say its entirely fair to say that a person who believes that humans gained fire because a god defied the King of the gods and brought it to them, and as a punishment he was chained to a rock and a bird eats his liver every day as punishment. Both are religious beliefs, both based on largely the same amount of evidence, both equally delusional.

Not even close. I don't pretend a color preference is based on anything other than my own preference. There's no afterlife involved, no eternal punishment, certainly no attempt by me to proselytize as to why I feel my choice is better, in fact, no attempt to even claim my choice is objectively better than any other. Just that it is my preference, based on nothing other than that. If you think a major religion can fit that bill, you go right ahead.
And that may be some of the problem, at least to some of us non theists from understanding

Some of us have come to the realization that a religious belief is really just a choice, and while we made our choice based on our opinion we just cant understand how someone can view it as not a choice but as objectively right choice

That leap is maybe where some of the contention comes in, I realize I made a choice and that I may be wrong how ever much I dont think so ...

I don't agree. There is evidence to the contrary for Iraq being a major threat to US homeland security, and there is evidence to the contrary that Christianity (not just the generic 'God') is false. Miles of it. I think it is delusional to believe both that Iraq was a threat and also that the Bible is trustworthy. The point of which is that we should be able to criticise religious beliefs just as we do political beliefs... I believe... lol.

In regards to the person who was calling believers delusional, I may be wrong about this, but I believe the context of that statement was about people who believe in God, not solely people who subscribe to Christian beliefs. The argument over whether the Bible is trustworthy or not and the argument over whether God even exists at all or not are two completely separate issues.

The difference here being that anyone can fly around the world, thus proving it is indeed a sphere, and not a flat plane with edges. The inspectors went in, and couldn't find any WMDs, thus debunking the claim that Iraq was going to use said weapons on the States.

However, when you're talking about God, to call anyone delusional for believing in Him (or her, or it, depending on the religion) then you've crossed over into the bounds of what seems to be arrogant presumption, seeing as there's no empirical method for testing whether there is a God or not. It's one thing to say "no one can prove or disprove God, therefore you may or may not be wrong"; it's quite another thing to flat out say "there is no possibility of there being a God; all you idiots are delusional". The former sentence is stating truth, while the latter just makes anyone who says it look incredibly arrogant.

Sorry, but the truly arrogant position is the one that says, despite any evidence whatsoever, that there is a God or gods, and that a person knows exactly what that God or gods desires of humans, and what punishment will be meted out for failure to comply. All I do is say "there's no proof, and everything you're putting out there as proof is ludicrous." And yet I'm the arrogant one?

Not even close. I don't pretend a color preference is based on anything other than my own preference. There's no afterlife involved, no eternal punishment, certainly no attempt by me to proselytize as to why I feel my choice is better, in fact, no attempt to even claim my choice is objectively better than any other. Just that it is my preference, based on nothing other than that. If you think a major religion can fit that bill, you go right ahead.

I think they are the same, but with perhaps a greater level of emotional attachment. You seem fairly colour-agnostic, but some people are quite passionate about flaunting their taste in colour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V5Pkjw37Uw)