NationStates Jolt Archive

You are trying to equate two computer sprites bouncing on one another with real rape. I have a sister who was raped 5 years ago and was given HIV in the assault. And you cannot understand why I am very upset. Poli want it to happen to you mate!

You have totally mis understood what people are saying. No one on this thread are saying it's rape.

No I am not 12, I just have a sister that was really raped you ****!!

If you don't make an effort to manage your anger, we'll be forced to manage your access to this site. Warned for gratuitous flaming.

Irrelevant.

Not exactly irrelevant. When some guy has tried to hit on me believing that I was a girl, I (politely or not, depending on my mood) told them to GTFO. If you're a guy and you have someone trying to hit on you believing you're a girl, you laugh your ass off the window.

You are trying to equate two computer sprites bouncing on one another with real rape. I have a sister who was raped 5 years ago and was given HIV in the assault. And you cannot understand why I am very upset. Poli want it to happen to you mate!

You don't seem to be very good at reading comprehension, do you?

Not exactly irrelevant. When some guy has tried to hit on me believing that I was a girl, I (politely or not, depending on my mood) told them to GTFO. If you're a guy and you have someone trying to hit on you believing you're a girl, you laugh your ass off the window.

It's happened to me more than once. It's fun to lead them on.

You are trying to equate two computer sprites bouncing on one another with real rape. I have a sister who was raped 5 years ago and was given HIV in the assault. And you cannot understand why I am very upset. Poli want it to happen to you mate!

The fact that you would wish that on anyone, even in anger. Has earned you a spot on my ignore list and my contempt.

Grow up. You aren't going to help anyone by flaming people here with angry rantings.

I'm not sure those two examples really sync up. In one you have a very clear case of a dangerous stalker, in the other you have a person harassing you solely on-line and doing things that would likely result in a ban if you brought it to the admins.
How do either you or I know where to draw the line on assessing this potential danger?

But whether there is actual danger is not the point. It is highly unlikely that the threatener could find me. But why should I have to put up with such verbal hostility when it is clearly directed at me personally from him personally, not as characters talking to each other in a fictional, improv narrative?

Of course you didn't consent to said harassment and of course it isn't part of the game,
Precisely.

but until he becomes something more than a nuisance and a jerk, blocking him and bringing a case to the admins is really the only thing that can be done. If it keeps happening (via alt accounts or somesuch), then you may have a case for harassment.
That distinction is up to the law, not me. If I feel strongly enough about something, I can bring it to whatever authority I think fit and see what they have to say about it.

But the argument that "it's just a game so get over it" implies that no one has a right even to stand up for themselves against a bully, so long as the bully sticks strictly to the schoolyard, as it were. If someone is doing that to me, I am not being a pussy for telling him to back the fuck off and if not, demanding that admin delete his account as per the rules of the game. This "it's not real so there's nothing to cry about" argument is used, in games, every day to put down people who complain about being scammed or harrassed or even about actual rule violations.

Just because no one is really dying, doesn't mean that no one is really getting hurt, and just because it's a cartoon, doesn't mean that a game is no-holds-barred, anything goes environment.

But the argument that "it's just a game so get over it" implies that no one has a right even to stand up for themselves against a bully, so long as the bully sticks strictly to the schoolyard, as it were. If someone is doing that to me, I am not being a pussy for telling him to back the fuck off and if not, demanding that admin delete his account as per the rules of the game. This "it's not real so there's nothing to cry about" argument is used, in games, every day to put down people who complain about being scammed or harrassed or even about actual rule violations.

Just because no one is really dying, doesn't mean that no one is really getting hurt, and just because it's a cartoon, doesn't mean that a game is no-holds-barred, anything goes environment.

In Eve you can be scammed, harassed, and blown up constantly. And if you whine loudly enough to the mods, they delete you.

How do either you or I know where to draw the line on assessing this potential danger?

But whether there is actual danger is not the point. It is highly unlikely that the threatener could find me. But why should I have to put up with such verbal hostility when it is clearly directed at me personally from him personally, not as characters talking to each other in a fictional, improv narrative?


Precisely.


That distinction is up to the law, not me. If I feel strongly enough about something, I can bring it to whatever authority I think fit and see what they have to say about it.

But the argument that "it's just a game so get over it" implies that no one has a right even to stand up for themselves against a bully, so long as the bully sticks strictly to the schoolyard, as it were. If someone is doing that to me, I am not being a pussy for telling him to back the fuck off and if not, demanding that admin delete his account as per the rules of the game. This "it's not real so there's nothing to cry about" argument is used, in games, every day to put down people who complain about being scammed or harrassed or even about actual rule violations.

Just because no one is really dying, doesn't mean that no one is really getting hurt, and just because it's a cartoon, doesn't mean that a game is no-holds-barred, anything goes environment.

No argument here. I'm just taking issue with idea that we should be getting outside law enforcement involved. There are in-game solutions to verbal harrassment. If he's violating the rules of the game, take him out. But I still think it's a stretch to get law enforcement involved, even if the ones in question aren't really looking at it like a rape case.

Not in a game where the simulated toon does not have my name or identity.

In Eve (unlike here, where people provide bits and pieces of their identity to support arguments), no one has any clue who you really are.
Unless they hack your account. Most games require at least an email to sign up. Not many people are paranoid enough to make up throw-away accounts for such purposes, so the harrassment could easily follow them home.

Just so you know, I'm STRONGLY against being mean in games. I think that there are much more things to pay attention to, not only the Rules. I heartily disagree with munchkinism and other ways of avowing that "everything that falls under the rules is OK".

The sad truth is that, while everything under the rules might not be OK, it's PERMITTED. And since the jerks are not going to learn, because to be able to listen to our pleas of being civilized, they would have to not be jerks to begin with, we should rather stop trying to teach them and start learning to deal with them. In their our terms, as a last resort.

Unless they hack your account. Most games require at least an email to sign up. Not many people are paranoid enough to make up throw-away accounts for such purposes, so the harrassment could easily follow them home.

So far, no one has been able to hack an Eve account.

I didn't have to provide an email.

It's just not possible to do with the specialized client app they use. If you aren't the Eve client, you aren't connecting to their servers.

And the front edge of their servers are all that you can see - you can't retrieve data from inside the DMZ that isn't supported by calls at the public edge.

Muravyets, your argument about being hacked holds more water in unsecure systems like web based games, or in forums where people exchange personal details.

Eve just doesn't fall into that category. Which is why the mods allow so wide-ranging a variety of behavior.

by Fartsniffage
I thought this was a case of one sprite assaulting another under the control of its' user. I think that would place it firmly in the arena of character to character communication. If it had been in the forums outside the actual game itself then I could see it being harrasment in the way you're discussing.


Or did I miss something and post a pointless message?

Wasn't really making an argument there, just sorta musing, but anyway...

Gah, I'm trying to put something together, but my words fail me right now. It's still a character in a game, regardless of what's happening. If you can't tell if the actions were aimed at the person or the avatar, how do you determine the crime? She may feel that actions aimed at the avatar are, by default, aimed at her, but that's not necessarily the case.
The point has been made several times that, in in-game harrassment, things may be done to the avatar in order to "get to" the player behind the avatar. Taking away control of your avatar. Subjecting your avatar to particular humliations that are visible to other players. Demonstrating acts upon the avatar that might be threatened against the player. Even just interfering with the player's ability to play the game so much that they are forced to leave.

All of these are harrassment of the player, plain and simple, and some of them, particularly taking over the avatar, making it impossible for someone to actually play the game, and making personal threats, are against the rules of every game I've ever seen. And in many games, the rules also prohibit disguising threats and insults against a person under the mask of character role-play and make allowance for mods/admin to make judgments on that case by case.

The point has been made several times that, in in-game harrassment, things may be done to the avatar in order to "get to" the player behind the avatar. Taking away control of your avatar. Subjecting your avatar to particular humliations that are visible to other players. Demonstrating acts upon the avatar that might be threatened against the player. Even just interfering with the player's ability to play the game so much that they are forced to leave.

All of these are harrassment of the player, plain and simple, and some of them, particularly taking over the avatar, making it impossible for someone to actually play the game, and making personal threats, are against the rules of every game I've ever seen. And in many games, the rules also prohibit disguising threats and insults against a person under the mask of character role-play and make allowance for mods/admin to make judgments on that case by case.

So, in your opinion, if I showed up and hacked your character to bits every time you logged on, you would consider that harassment?

It's not in Eve.

The single most important thing which is NEVER stated in reviews, is that in Eve Online you can be REALLY evil and people can be really evil back to you. You can be destroyed and even betrayed! In WoW, being evil is more of a fashion statement. The Horde in WoW do nothing more than ‘dress in black’ and slay things, just like the alliance. BUT could you handle Eve Online where there are more ’shades of gray’ than ‘black-and-white’?

It's what you do.
No, it isn't.

Oh, and I'm not telling women to turn themselves into men. I'm just saying that if you are playing a toon, nothing that happens there is real, and it's not like they know who or where you are, unless you tell them (which would be stupidity on your part).
A) Then why even bring up that the women gamers you know all play as men?

B) And I've already said that I think that the nothing-is-real argument is nonsense, and that the they-can't-really-find-you argument is irrelevant.

No, it isn't.

A) Then why even bring up that the women gamers you know all play as men?

B) And I've already said that I think that the nothing-is-real argument is nonsense, and that the they-can't-really-find-you argument is irrelevant.

Apparently, it's not irrelevant if they can't really find you.

The point has been made several times that, in in-game harrassment, things may be done to the avatar in order to "get to" the player behind the avatar. Taking away control of your avatar. Subjecting your avatar to particular humliations that are visible to other players. Demonstrating acts upon the avatar that might be threatened against the player. Even just interfering with the player's ability to play the game so much that they are forced to leave.

All of these are harrassment of the player, plain and simple, and some of them, particularly taking over the avatar, making it impossible for someone to actually play the game, and making personal threats, are against the rules of every game I've ever seen. And in many games, the rules also prohibit disguising threats and insults against a person under the mask of character role-play and make allowance for mods/admin to make judgments on that case by case.

But I thought this thread was about a girl who had her sprite humped by another users sprite and reported it to the police. I'm not really sure how that would prevent her from being able to play the game or could even be seen as a threat against her RL person?

Not exactly irrelevant. When some guy has tried to hit on me believing that I was a girl, I (politely or not, depending on my mood) told them to GTFO. If you're a guy and you have someone trying to hit on you believing you're a girl, you laugh your ass off the window.
I run two characters on the RPG I play. One is male, the other is female. I am female in reality. Both characters get flirted with now and then. I play along, in character, for both of them. But if the other player seems to be getting too into it and like they'd like to make it more private and more serious, I clue them that (a) I'm not into cyber-sex and (b) what my real gender is, if I think it will matter.

But in the issue of harrassment, it totally does not matter whether the target is really male or really female. What matters is the intent of the harrasser. After all, if the real identity of the target of cyber-propositions mattered, then the police would not be able to catch pedophiles by posing as 13-year-olds in online chat rooms. Since the cop was not really a 13-year-old kid, the pedophile could argue that his attempt to hook up with a 13-year-old kid never really happened. And they do make those arguments in court, only they don't hold up.

Why do people even play Second Life?? It's one of the shittiest games I've ever had the complete lack of pleasure to try playing.

It did bring us the Front National vs everyone else war.

In Eve you can be scammed, harassed, and blown up constantly. And if you whine loudly enough to the mods, they delete you.
And what if you get sexually harrassed in Eve? Let's see what Eve Online's rules have to say about it:

from Eve Online site (emphasis added):
EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE

As an Eve Online subscriber, you must observe and abide by the rules of conduct and policies outlined below, as well as the End User License Agreement. Failure to comply with these regulations can result in the immediate termination of your account and you will forfeit all unused access time to the game. No refunds will be given.

You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. This includes, but is not limited to: petitioning with false information in an attempt to gain from it or have someone else suffer from it; sending excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or petitions; obstructing customer service representatives (CSR’s) from doing their jobs; refusal to follow the instructions of a CSR; or implying favoritism by a CSR.

You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)

You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies

You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.

You will report out-of-game issues regarding harassment, such as threatening phone calls or correspondence, to your local law enforcement officials or Internet provider. CCP will not reveal personal information about its subscribers to unauthorized individuals. We are not responsible for actions taken by our subscribers that occur outside the jurisdiction of our game servers or web site.

You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in the EVE Online game world or using the EVE Online web site.

You may not violate any local, state, national or international laws or regulations.

You may not impersonate or present yourself to be a representative of CCP or an EVE Online volunteer.

You may not advertise, employ, market, or promote any form of solicitation – including pyramid schemes and chain letters – in the EVE Online game world or on the website.

You may not market, sell, advertise, promote, solicit or otherwise arrange for the exchange or transfer of items in the game or other game services unless it is for in-game sales of in-game services or items.

You may not arrange for the exchange or transfer of any illegal or pirated software or other contraband while you are using the EVE Online client, servers or website.

You may not transmit or upload through the EVE Online client, server or website any copyrighted material that you do not own all rights to without the express written permission of the author or copyright holder.

You may not create, provide or use any server emulator or other site where EVE Online may be played. You may not post or distribute emulators, software tools or utilities related to EVE Online without the express written permission of CCP.

You may not attempt to play EVE Online on any server that is not controlled or authorized by CCP.

You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.

You may not publish private communications from CCP, their agents or representatives or EVE Online volunteers without authorization.

You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber’s personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.

You may not give false information or intentionally hide or withhold any information, including billing and contact information, when registering your EVE Online account subscription. You are responsible for keeping this information accurate and current.

You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game.

You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk. Further information on account transfers can be found in the EULA.

You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.

You will use the CCP bug reporting tools in accordance with their policy and will not intentionally submit misinformation or hide information required by the bug report forms.

CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any user’s account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.

If you are between 13 and 18 years of age, you must have the permission of your parent or guardian to before providing the personal information required to create an EVE Online game or website account.

In compliance with The Children’s Online Privacy Act of April, 2000, we cannot provide subscriptions to individuals under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you may not create an EVE Online account and you are not eligible to enter contests or promotions.

You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE Online’s game service or web site.

http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp

Maybe you should read the forums, and find out how often they enforce it.

Zero...

Real rape people get really hurt. Or are you so up your own arse that you cannot understand that?

And of what relevance is that to whether or not this constituted sexual harassment, or have you not been keeping up?

Muravyets, if you played Eve enough, you would find out that in order to get them to enforce it, you have to prove that the other person actually knows who and where you are.

Otherwise, they can keep talking and blowing you up...

No argument here. I'm just taking issue with idea that we should be getting outside law enforcement involved. There are in-game solutions to verbal harrassment. If he's violating the rules of the game, take him out. But I still think it's a stretch to get law enforcement involved, even if the ones in question aren't really looking at it like a rape case.
Well, as I've said before but don't mind repeating because it keeps getting lost in the debate, we don't know why the Belgian police are interested in this matter.

It has already been made clear that no one here thinks this lady was really raped in any sense of the word. But it has also been stated that Belgium has issues with Second Life based on the way it allows sexual content in the game. Apparently there are questions about whether it violates Belgium's child porn laws. If there are broader questions about how sex is used in this game, that might be the reason for getting law enforcement involved.

Meanwhile, if you look at the Terms of Use for Eve Online, which I posted in response to someone else, you will see that they do include instruction to report all out-of-game harrassment to local law enforcement. They are disclaiming responsibility for things that happen out of game even if they started in game, but that implies that such things do happen and do spin out of PERSONAL, OUT OF CHARACTER interactions between people playing the game.

Well, as I've said before but don't mind repeating because it keeps getting lost in the debate, we don't know why the Belgian police are interested in this matter.

It has already been made clear that no one here thinks this lady was really raped in any sense of the word. But it has also been stated that Belgium has issues with Second Life based on the way it allows sexual content in the game. Apparently there are questions about whether it violates Belgium's child porn laws. If there are broader questions about how sex is used in this game, that might be the reason for getting law enforcement involved.

Meanwhile, if you look at the Terms of Use for Eve Online, which I posted in response to someone else, you will see that they do include instruction to report all out-of-game harrassment to local law enforcement. They are disclaiming responsibility for things that happen out of game even if they started in game, but that implies that such things do happen and do spin out of PERSONAL, OUT OF CHARACTER interactions between people playing the game.

You would have to prove to CCP that they actually know who you are and where you are.

Otherwise, they don't act on it.

So far, no one has been able to hack an Eve account.

I didn't have to provide an email.

It's just not possible to do with the specialized client app they use. If you aren't the Eve client, you aren't connecting to their servers.

And the front edge of their servers are all that you can see - you can't retrieve data from inside the DMZ that isn't supported by calls at the public edge.

This is not an Eve Online thread. This is about games in general, and since all games -- including Eve Online -- contain warnings about and policies against account hacking, you can't tell me that it never happens or never can happen.

But if you think you can win this debate by applying your own limited experience of one game to everyone's experiences in all games, you go right ahead and try it.

Muravyets, your argument about being hacked holds more water in unsecure systems like web based games, or in forums where people exchange personal details.

Eve just doesn't fall into that category. Which is why the mods allow so wide-ranging a variety of behavior.
Again, this is not an Eve Online thread. We are discussing games in general.

This is not an Eve Online thread. This is about games in general, and since all games -- including Eve Online -- contain warnings about and policies against account hacking, you can't tell me that it never happens or never can happen.

But if you think you can win this debate by applying your own limited experience of one game to everyone's experiences in all games, you go right ahead and try it.

The policies are in place as ass-covering doublespeak.

However, Eve hasn't been hacked. Conceptually, it can't happen (stealing account information).

If you were a software developer, and had talked with the developers at the last EveFest, you would know it's impossible.

So, in your opinion, if I showed up and hacked your character to bits every time you logged on, you would consider that harassment?

It's not in Eve.
So what? The entire internet does not begin and end with Eve Online. :rolleyes:

The single most important thing which is NEVER stated in reviews, is that in Eve Online you can be REALLY evil and people can be really evil back to you. You can be destroyed and even betrayed! In WoW, being evil is more of a fashion statement. The Horde in WoW do nothing more than ‘dress in black’ and slay things, just like the alliance. BUT could you handle Eve Online where there are more ’shades of gray’ than ‘black-and-white’?
What does this have to do with anything?

Apparently, it's not irrelevant if they can't really find you.
Yes, it is irrelevant. Because even if they can't come to your house and say nasty things to you, they can still say the nasty things to you in the game.

So what? The entire internet does not begin and end with Eve Online. :rolleyes:


What does this have to do with anything?

It's not a defense to once again say it's irrelevant after you've accepted arguing about it.

It has everything to do with it.

I can blow you up every day in Eve. I can threaten to do it, and ruin your game experience. It's not against the rules.

I, and a lot of other players, do it every day.

We're "killing" every day. Which is fine, because it's simulated.

CCP puts the burden of proof on YOU to prove that it's outside the game - basically, you have to prove that someone KNOWS where you really are and KNOWS who you really are.

Which is next to impossible for you to prove.

If you keep whining, they invoke that clause that ejects you permanently from the game.

If I were running Second Life, and they actually have a problem with toon harassment, I would place the same burden of proof on people who complain.

Prove to me that the harasser knows exactly who you really are, and where you really are, and I'll dump them from the game. Otherwise, I would dump you from the game.

But I thought this thread was about a girl who had her sprite humped by another users sprite and reported it to the police. I'm not really sure how that would prevent her from being able to play the game or could even be seen as a threat against her RL person?
You may not see it, but she did, and it will be up to the Belgian police, since she called them, to decide whether she is being reasonable or unreasonable.

In the meantime, because the information on the OP incident is so scant, I have done what the OP article and its linked legal analysis did and am looking at the issue of hurting people in virtual worlds more broadly, not just in reference to this particular complaint by this particular person.

You may not see it, but she did, and it will be up to the Belgian police, since she called them, to decide whether she is being reasonable or unreasonable.

In the meantime, because the information on the OP incident is so scant, I have done what the OP article and its linked legal analysis did and am looking at the issue of hurting people in virtual worlds more broadly, not just in reference to this particular complaint by this particular person.

If hurting a virtual person becomes a crime, then the MMOGs will just shut down.

Or they won't be played in your country.

The thing is, everything people are saying about internet sex threats is the SAME SHIT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT REAL-LIFE SEXUAL VIOLENCE.So because it's bollox in one context, it's bollox in any context?That's what makes me "uh-oh" meter start jumping.Maybe you should get it fixed then.We've heard it all on this thread. Victims should just leave. Should just find a new game. Should just learn to lie about their gender or orientation. Victims should get used to it. Should accept that that's just how it is. Etc. I said nothing of the sort. You can and should log off and drop an email to the OP. You can and should expect the TOS to be enforced. And if there isn't any, you've pretty much accepted the possibility that not everyone will be nice to you - and you can still find another place to waste your time in that case. You can't do anything of the sort when you're getting raped. There is no comparison. Drink less, think it over and come back.Real-world rape victims are told all the time that it was their fault for being in that neighborhood, or in that skirt, or in that state of intoxication.Which in itself is a damn good reason not to compare something that ultimately depends on your voluntary participation, to something you, under the very best of circumstances, have no control over.My entire point, this whole time, seems to be getting completely ignored.If your point was that trying to bully, scare and abuse people out of a virtual world they like, and possibly pay for, is unacceptable and should result in an instant and permanent ban, then I can only agree. I'm sure people operating such communities agrees too.

If your point was that typing abuse online is even remotely similar to getting raped, then I think you're cracked.I am completely aware that real-world rape is different from internet sexual threats and whatnot. I'm willing to bet solid money that I am more aware of the realities of BOTH of those than you are.Given your familiarity with online gaming, I'd have thought so too. But apparently we were both mistaken about that.My point is simply that the shit that goes down on the internet is not taken seriously enough, and the concerns of the targets of this type of harassment are brushed aside far too often.Then stick to that. Calling it rape is at least really fucking insulting to rape victims everywhere, and quite possibly another of those little things that make people view rape as something the victim basically asked for.I don't have any desire to see in-game rape fantasies viewed as equivalent to real-world rape. And yet you equate the two at every turn.What I want is for people to be able to take in-game problems seriously without anybody needing to drop the r-word.Wow.. Backpeddal much? But hey, at least we can agree on that. I know some people can get a major emotional bruising when the staff isn't up to the task. But the victim is still in control of the situation, no matter how bad it is. Advocating shit like prison sentences for sick online personae, is far worse than anything those personae can ever do.And, so far, the problem for me has been that this doesn't happen. The in-game or in-forum problems don't get ANY attention unless you fucking scream at the top of your damn lungs.Start doing what we do in the real world. Virtual activism. Or boycott the place.My whole problem is that I hate the idea of people hollering about "rape" when they are really talking about cyber "assaults" or something like that, but I also recognize that there is no existing term that reflects the seriousness of those issues. That's a shitty situation.Isn't griefing good enough? Otherwise, think of a better term and spread it around. Might work if you combine it with some in-community activism.That's as bullshit as saying there's no non-consensual activity in public spaces. I mean, you consented to go out in public, right? I guess you automatically consent to whatever somebody does to you in public.It's always a problem when we fail to look out for each other. In the real world, however, you can't simply disconnect for 5 mins and drop an email to the PM. Online, you can. That's why there's no non-consensual interaction online. Unlike in the real world, your participation is required.

Finally, that I disagree - and is really fucking offended by - your callous disregard for rape victims and the fucked up social problem that rape is, in no way implies I think vacant community OPs and online abuse is a good thing. So no reason for you to imply that I do.

Think, and start being constructive, instead of that silly character assasination shit.

/rant

Yes, it is irrelevant. Because even if they can't come to your house and say nasty things to you, they can still say the nasty things to you in the game.

I can say nasty things (and I do) every day in Eve.

So does everyone else.

We don't get booted for it unless someone can prove we know who someone really is, and where they really are.

Muravyets, if you played Eve enough, you would find out that in order to get them to enforce it, you have to prove that the other person actually knows who and where you are.

Otherwise, they can keep talking and blowing you up...

and that's bullshit in its entirety because the prima facie elements of sexual harassment doe not contain a requirement that you know the name, location, or gender of your target. Ergo a crime can be comitted absent all of these things.

I highly suspect that when presented with evidence that a crime has been comitted, Eve would do something about it.

and that's bullshit in its entirety because the prima facie elements of sexual harassment doe not contain a requirement that you know the name, location, or gender of your target. Ergo a crime can be comitted absent all of these things.

I highly suspect that when presented with evidence that a crime has been comitted, Eve would do something about it.

The evidence involves knowing the real identity. Why don't you consult the laws of Finland, which CCP works under?

Or are you a lawyer that curses from Finland now, whose principal argument sounds like "Objection! Irrelevant!"

CCP puts the burden of proof on YOU to prove that it's outside the game - basically, you have to prove that someone KNOWS where you really are and KNOWS who you really are.

Which is next to impossible for you to prove.

If you keep whining, they invoke that clause that ejects you permanently from the game.

If I were running Second Life, and they actually have a problem with toon harassment, I would place the same burden of proof on people who complain..

um, maybe I missed this, but as far as I know, a private game company doesn't have the power to define the burden of proof of a criminal act.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they can do that.

um, maybe I missed this, but as far as I know, a private game company doesn't have the power to define the burden of proof of a criminal act.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they can do that.

They're not going to get involved unless you can somehow substantiate that a criminal act has occurred.

Otherwise, we could all claim every interaction in the game was a criminal act...

The evidence involves knowing the real identity.

As harassment does not require this, evidence that the person knew the real identity is irrelevant. It is not needed to fulfill the prima facie requirements of the elements

Why don't you consult the laws of Finland, which CCP works under?

Its place of incorporation is entirely irrelevant as doing business in the United States they willingly place themselves in the jurisdiction of the United States and regardless of that, it is the jurisdiction of the PLAYERS that matters in an accusation of harassment, not the company.

See, if you were a lawyer, you'd know that.

Remote Observer
Maybe you should read the forums, and find out how often they enforce it.

Zero...

Muravyets, if you played Eve enough, you would find out that in order to get them to enforce it, you have to prove that the other person actually knows who and where you are.

Otherwise, they can keep talking and blowing you up...
Are you arguing that, because the rules are not always enforced, they de facto don't exist?

First of all, if someone is breaking the rules and Eve Online admin does not enforce the rules against them, then that is the fault of Eve Online, and if harm resulted to a person for it, they could be liable for it, all their disclaimers notwithstanding.

Second, how do you know they don't enforce them? Just because people on the forums complain that they didn't get an enforcement that they demanded? Not every accusation has merit, so not every accusation will result in a ban. Most accusations have to be accompanied by proof in the form of a chat log or screenshot. Many times people fail to save such evidence. Or maybe it's because of players bragging about how they get away with things? Maybe a lot of people have never actually read the Terms of Use and don't know that they can report abuses and get results.

But I fail to see how claiming that the rules don't get enforced somehow means that harrassment is OK in the game, when it is clearly prohibited by the rules.

The game I play is much less violent than Eve and has very pro-active mods (some say too active). People get banned every week, yet the forums are still full of others crying that the rules don't get enforced enough.

I gave you Eve Online's list of rules. Your anecdotal claims about what people say in forums cannot wipe out that list.

They're not going to get involved unless you can somehow substantiate that a criminal act has occurred.

And I do believe that eve, like every other MMO, has the ability to capture and report text directly to the support staff.

And, by the way:

Why don't you consult the laws of Finland, which CCP works under?

Iceland.

And since you're so keen on the Eve EULA, why don't you read this part:

You shall comply with all applicable laws regarding your access to and use of the System, use of the Software, your access to your Account and your playing of the Game

You would have to prove to CCP that they actually know who you are and where you are.

Otherwise, they don't act on it.
Another irrelevant response that ignores what I actually posted.

Read the rules. They clearly state, report all out of game contacts etc. So, if the contacts are out of game, don't you think the harrasser has, by then, already found the victim's identity and location? Please, RO, do try to keep up.

Oh, and of course, let's not forget this bit:

User Content that you cause to be communicated to the System may not (i) violate any statute, rule, regulation or law; (ii) infringe or violate the intellectual property, proprietary, privacy or publicity rights of any third party; (iii) be defamatory, indecent, obscene, child pornographic or harmful to minors;

The policies are in place as ass-covering doublespeak.

However, Eve hasn't been hacked. Conceptually, it can't happen (stealing account information).

If you were a software developer, and had talked with the developers at the last EveFest, you would know it's impossible.
Oh, please. All this dismissive nonsense that is just your opinion, not anything based in actual fact, just shows me you have no response to the evidence I posted. Also, all this "if you did this" or "if you were that" nonsense is just that - nonsense.

Nothing you say even addresses the facts of the Eve Online rules that I posted, let alone refutes my argument that the existence of those rules refutes your claim that harrassment is just part of the game.

By the way, Eve's rules are nearly identical to the rules of all other games. This is not mere ass-coverage. What it is, is standard legal language.

And since you're so keen on the Eve EULA, why don't you read this part:
Companies just put in EULAs to cover their asses. We don't read them and they know we don't read them.

It's not a defense to once again say it's irrelevant after you've accepted arguing about it.
I have not accepted arguing about it. I have done nothing but tell you it is irrelevant.

It has everything to do with it.

I can blow you up every day in Eve. I can threaten to do it, and ruin your game experience. It's not against the rules.

I, and a lot of other players, do it every day.

We're "killing" every day. Which is fine, because it's simulated.

CCP puts the burden of proof on YOU to prove that it's outside the game - basically, you have to prove that someone KNOWS where you really are and KNOWS who you really are.

Which is next to impossible for you to prove.

If you keep whining, they invoke that clause that ejects you permanently from the game.
So you say. I refer you back to the rules. Yes, anyone who makes an accusation has to be the one to prove it actually happened, but in most games this can be done by sending a screenshot or chat log to the mods or admins. They are the ones who know which character belongs to which player.

So excuse me if I don't believe you when you say that, despite their rules to the contrary, if a person can show that another person is harrassing them in violation of the rules, Eve will punish the victim not the rule breaker.

And I also remind you that this is not a discussion of only Eve Online, so unless you can expand your examples to prove that the majority of other games do the same, then your Eve stories are just anecdotes that prove nothing.

If I were running Second Life, and they actually have a problem with toon harassment, I would place the same burden of proof on people who complain.
The burden of proof is already on the accuser anyway, in all cases. Where has anyone said otherwise? Or is this another strawman, like your "that's an attack on the seriousness of rape" line?

Prove to me that the harasser knows exactly who you really are, and where you really are, and I'll dump them from the game. Otherwise, I would dump you from the game.
More strawmen. I wonder if you are making them by accident because you cannot follow the arguments in the debate?

a) If I accuse someone of harrassing me in game in a way that breaks the rules of the game, all I have to prove is that they did that. In game.

b) If I am saying that someone has found me in real life and is harrassing me at home, and IF I CAN PROVE THAT, well, hell, then I guess they must be really doing it or else I wouldn't be able to prove it. And that then is a matter for the police to deal with, not Eve Online, just like it says in Eve's Terms of Use.

The bottomline is, the only thing I have to prove to the game admins is that someone is doing something IN GAME that violates the rules of the game. Period. I don't have to prove anything beyond that. If it goes beyond that, then the people I have to prove it to will be the police, not the game admins.

If hurting a virtual person becomes a crime, then the MMOGs will just shut down.

Or they won't be played in your country.
That is a false conclusion based on your false assumption that no one ever makes an attempt to get at a person in order to hurt them by verbal abuse or threats through the medium of a game. You have done nothing to show that it never, ever happens that people communicate PERSONALLY through games, not just in character or in the context of play, therefore your arguments based on that assumption are unfounded.

EDIT: And another thing:

You're the one who is arguing that what one does to an avatar is not the same as doing it to a person, yet you refuse to acknowledge that your opponents are talking about doing things to people, not to avatars. You keep wanting us to make the distinction between avatars and people, yet you refuse to see that we have been doing that all along.

You're the one who is arguing that what one does to an avatar is not the same as doing it to a person, yet you refuse to acknowledge that your opponents are talking about doing things to people, not to avatars. You keep wanting us to make the distinction between avatars and people, yet you refuse to see that we have been doing that all along.
Because this thread is not about people actually doing things to people. Trying to make it so is convoluting the point.

I can say nasty things (and I do) every day in Eve.

So does everyone else.

We don't get booted for it unless someone can prove we know who someone really is, and where they really are.

So you say. I refer you back to the rules. You have failed to show me any proof that these are not enforced. Just like a person accusing someone of harrassment, you are making an assertion of fact, so you need to back it up with something more than your say-so.

Because this thread is not about people actually doing things to people. Trying to make it so is convoluting the point.

conversation which instills fear, revultion, disgust and embarassment does indeed do something to people.

That would be the entire motivation behind sexual harassment laws.

The evidence involves knowing the real identity. Why don't you consult the laws of Finland, which CCP works under?

Or are you a lawyer that curses from Finland now, whose principal argument sounds like "Objection! Irrelevant!"
Eve already knows the real identity of every player -- or at least what is given when the account is opened. If someone harrasses me, and I can send the Eve mods the chatlog or screenshots showing what was done, they can see clearly which character is saying what and from that can look up who owns the offending character. Then they have all the information and power they need to do whatever the rules require to the offending person, provided the offense actually breaks the rules.

They're not going to get involved unless you can somehow substantiate that a criminal act has occurred.

Otherwise, we could all claim every interaction in the game was a criminal act...
Are you just not capable of arguing within the parameters of reality? First you claim that this whole argument is an attack on the seriousness of rape, then you claim that people are trying to make all gameplay out to be harrassment, now you're trying to blur the line between what game owners can do what the police can do, as if anyone is saying the game admins must enforce the laws of whatever country. That's bull. No one has said anything like that.

But the rules of games make it clear: If a player violates the rules, they will be punished. Doing things that are illegal IS a violation of the rules. So is harrassment, whether it rises to the level of illegal or not. And what do the game admins do about it? Just what it says in the rules - they suspend or delete player accounts. Period.

So, no, no matter what you claim, no one has to prove to the admins that a crime was committed in game. They only have to prove that the rules were broken.

Companies just put in EULAs to cover their asses. We don't read them and they know we don't read them.
There's that old saying, ignorance of the law is not a defense.

If you agree to a set of rules without reading them, then more the fool you, because if you break them, they can be invoked against you.

Because this thread is not about people actually doing things to people. Trying to make it so is convoluting the point.
Yes, it is what the thread is about. Harrassment is an act committed against a person. Likewise with threatening, menacing, stalking, and other forms of action that can be entirely verbal. THAT is what we are talking about, not elves hitting gnomes with cartoon sticks.

There's that old saying, ignorance of the law is not a defense.

If you agree to a set of rules without reading them, then more the fool you, because if you break them, they can be invoked against you.
So you read the entire EULA for this site? For every video game, piece of software, piece of hardware, and anything else you own?

So you read the entire EULA for this site? For every video game, piece of software, piece of hardware, and anything else you own?
Yes, I do.

Anything I am asked to sign or acknowledge agreement to, I read thoroughly first. Anything that starts with, "By accepting these terms, you..." I read thoroughly before accepting it.

That's how I know that all games use nearly identical Terms of Use. It's also how I've avoided ever getting shafted by a credit card company or a warranty agreement for a piece of merchandise or anything of that sort.

EDIT: In fact, not only do I read all these little online agreements and contracts, I download and print them too, for future reference.

It's also how I've avoided ever getting shafted by a credit card company or a warranty agreement for a piece of merchandise or anything of that sort.
Those are totally different than the EULA for an mp3 player, video game, or forum.

Those are totally different than the EULA for an mp3 player, video game, or forum.
Are you attempting to suggest that because I included more information than you asked for, that means I didn't answer your question?

I said: I do read EULAs. I do read Terms of Agreement. I do read all the docs associated with any game or service or anything that I use.

I included warranties and credit card contracts in addition to that because they are also examples of things people often sign without reading and regret later.

I read everything I sign and/or agree to.

So you read the entire EULA for this site? For every video game, piece of software, piece of hardware, and anything else you own?

Yup, every time.

I'm glad you people have so much time on your hands and the predisposition for legalese.

Hmm, this thread has exploded a bit since I last was here. Lets see now, got to make sure I cover all the bases. In no particular order, but hopefully managing to deal with most of the points that have been raised:

Just to be fair, I'm going to declare what possible biases I might have right here, up front.


Play currently/played seriously at some point:
[none]

Played or dabbled in:
Shattered World
Shattered Kingdom
LambdaMOO
Dungeons & Dragons
Munchkin

Have not played, but would consider trying:
World of Warcraft
Everquest

Will likely never even try:
EVE Online
Second Life
Most generic MMORPGs and MUDs/MOOs


PTSD - post traumatic stress disorder. We had a bit of a debate about this over around post 110, didn't we? Shall we amuse ourselves for a moment by examing what the term `post traumatic stress disorder' actually means? Okay (I should make it clear that no dictionaries, wikis, or anything were consulted here, and the definitions are open to argument.). `Post' - in this context, a prefix meaning `after'. `Traumatic' - an experience which causes trauma, either physical or mental. `Stress' - overwhelmed by worry and anxiety. `Disorder' can be further broken down. `dis' - not, reversed. `order' - stable. Let's put that together, and we'll get something along the lines of `After an experience which causes physical or mental trauma [people may experience] fear and anxiety, becoming unstable'. Suprisingly, this would seem to fit fairly well with what I would suppose likely to happen to someone who has been sexually harassed online.

Is it rape? No, it isn't. It's probably best classed as sexual harassment, although I'm of the opinion we're needing a new category for certain things now, one of these being some, if not most, of online activities of dubious legality.

A brief point regarding the arguments I'm advancing: I am not arguing on the sole basis of any one incident, especially the linked one in the OP, as I know next to nothing about Second Life. The main source I'll likely draw on is quotes from this thread, and, to give me a bit of a grounding in an actual event, the linked happenings in LambdaMOO.

Cyberbullying. I've never been an actual victim myself, although I can think of an incident in which attempts were made, briefly. I am probably lucky in that my online communities of friends do not know me at school or anything of the sort, and my enemies in reality do not know my online identities. However, I do recognise that, as with all forms of bullying, it can be very damaging to a person. `Just block them, change aliases, ignore it', you're probably going to say, right? Sure, explain how that works for some loner in the bottom year, smaller than everyone else, no friends, no-one to turn to, bullied at school and on the web, rumors spread about him. You don't even have to be contacted by it for it to do you harm - rumours can be quite nasty enough.

Avatars, and the emotional impact of what happens to them. I'll make several points here. One, creating an avatar will, almost necessarily, involve you emotionally in it in some way. This holds more in text games where you have to write your own description and such, but still holds to a degree in the more RP oriented MMORPGs. Two, `If you stare long enough into the abyss, it stares back' (paraphrased). The act of playing this character and role that you've created, writing a new person into existence, will leave something of a mark on you. Third, who is to say which persona is real, anyway? The public face I present in `Real Life', or my digital persona on a MOO or on NS?

EVE Online: Respectfully, and in the nicest possible way, STFU. Your game is not the be all and end all of online gaming, does not set the standard or the rules for other games to follow, and, frankly, given the reactions of the admins to possible player complaints and behaviour breaching the EULA, I don't think I'd want to play it. I don't care about the specific rules in one game I won't be playing, and I fail to see how these make it impossible for me to argue about something completely different.

Teh_Pantless_Hero, could you, just once, try to put a bit of thought into one of your responses, instead of a two or three line response dismissing a message from someone else? Thanks, it would make debating with you a lot easier.



Meh, not as much as I wanted to say, but I need sleep. Could I ask people to declare their biases beforehand please?

I'm glad you people have so much time on your hands and the predisposition for legalese.
I'm glad to see that we've managed at last to use up your available repertoire of come-backs.

By the way, "I read everything I sign" is just plain old English, not "legalese."

I'm glad you people have so much time on your hands and the predisposition for legalese.

"reading something before I sign it" is not legalese

It's common fucking sense

"reading something before I sign it" is not legalese

It's common fucking sense
You are either both the same person or somehow both pretty damn dense. I was referring to the EULA with that part of the statement.

You are either both the same person or somehow both pretty damn dense. I was referring to the EULA with that part of the statement.

you realize you legally accept the terms of that EULA when you click on it, yes?

You realize that legally it is the same as if you signed it, yes?

How in ANY way is my statement somehow invalidated by the fact that you were refering to a EULA as opposed to....any other form of contract?

I'm thinking I'm not the dense one here.

Doubly so for the fact that you think a EULA is complex legal language

<snip>

PTSD - post traumatic stress disorder. We had a bit of a debate about this over around post 110, didn't we? Shall we amuse ourselves for a moment by examing what the term `post traumatic stress disorder' actually means? Okay (I should make it clear that no dictionaries, wikis, or anything were consulted here, and the definitions are open to argument.). `Post' - in this context, a prefix meaning `after'. `Traumatic' - an experience which causes trauma, either physical or mental. `Stress' - overwhelmed by worry and anxiety. `Disorder' can be further broken down. `dis' - not, reversed. `order' - stable. Let's put that together, and we'll get something along the lines of `After an experience which causes physical or mental trauma [people may experience] fear and anxiety, becoming unstable'. Suprisingly, this would seem to fit fairly well with what I would suppose likely to happen to someone who has been sexually harassed online.
In addition consider the well established statistic that 1 in 3 women is likely to become the victim of sexual assault in the real world, and the number of people likely to be severely psychologically impacted by online sexual harrassment increases.

Then add in medical study indications that severe social embarrassment, rejection by others, and verbal hostility evoke similar physiological reactions of pain and nausea as actual physical injury, and the reasons why the "it's not real so nobody is getting hurt" argument is bunk become even clearer.

Is it rape? No, it isn't. It's probably best classed as sexual harassment, although I'm of the opinion we're needing a new category for certain things now, one of these being some, if not most, of online activities of dubious legality.
Lack of clarity in the language is certainly not helping the debate, but I wonder why we are debating over whether it is right or wrong to be a shit towards other people at all. The fact that it is not actual rape does not make such behavior okay. It is a little scary to me that there are people who don't seem to get that.

<snip>
Cyberbullying. I've never been an actual victim myself, although I can think of an incident in which attempts were made, briefly. I am probably lucky in that my online communities of friends do not know me at school or anything of the sort, and my enemies in reality do not know my online identities. However, I do recognise that, as with all forms of bullying, it can be very damaging to a person. `Just block them, change aliases, ignore it', you're probably going to say, right? Sure, explain how that works for some loner in the bottom year, smaller than everyone else, no friends, no-one to turn to, bullied at school and on the web, rumors spread about him. You don't even have to be contacted by it for it to do you harm - rumours can be quite nasty enough.
I've never been the victim of cyberbullying, but as a child I was the victim of a couple of actual bullies. The long term traumatic stress caused by prolonged bullying cannot be over-estimated, especially if the bully is very motivated. One of the childhood bullies I dealt with was, I later learned, a victim of abuse in their own home and as a result, worked out extreme rage on schoolmates not only in physical violence but in psychological power plays, manipulations, humiliations, lies and rumors as well.

Also, throughout my life, I have had times of struggling with vicious gossips who deliberately, out of anger or malice, spread lies about me or people I knew, at school and on jobs. The damage their lies caused to other people's reputations often followed them for years.

Avatars, and the emotional impact of what happens to them. I'll make several points here. One, creating an avatar will, almost necessarily, involve you emotionally in it in some way. This holds more in text games where you have to write your own description and such, but still holds to a degree in the more RP oriented MMORPGs. Two, `If you stare long enough into the abyss, it stares back' (paraphrased). The act of playing this character and role that you've created, writing a new person into existence, will leave something of a mark on you. Third, who is to say which persona is real, anyway? The public face I present in `Real Life', or my digital persona on a MOO or on NS?
Consider also the value of the avatar to a young person who may be a misfit in their school scene or home environment, who is trying to define themselves in someway, who might use role playing to try out different personas and experiment with their social skills. Such a person's identification with the avatar will be even greater because it is piece of themselves they are putting out there to see what happens. If what happens is that they get treated like dirt, that is going to be extremely hurtful.

Plus, there is the simple fact that everyone in a game has come there for the same reason -- to play. If a few people decide that everyone else is there merely to provide them with cyber-punching bags, that denies others the ability to enjoy the game as it was designed to be enjoyed.

<snip>
Meh, not as much as I wanted to say, but I need sleep. Could I ask people to declare their biases beforehand please?
Sure, I'll do it, though it's hardly beforehand at this point.

Besides NS (which I don't really play; I just hang out here mostly), I play 1 game - a run of the mill LOTR rip-off MMORPG that is Mac compatible and doesn't look horrendously horrendous for a free game. It is relatively family friendly and gore-free. It has plenty of PK space (segregated) but is more encouraging of role-play than action -- its fight system is primitive, for instance.

I would never play Eve Online or any other such PK-heavy games because I don't like violence and I find such war-oriented games disturbing.

I prefer role-play over action and look for games that give me a rich environment and material for narrative themes that interest me. If I could find decent-looking horror or sailing games for Mac, I'd play those too.

I considered playing Second Life because I was interested in the interactive set-up, but there was something kind of formless about it that made me think I'd run into a lot of idle bores desperately looking for someone to entertain them. And there's too much money and business involved in that game. I don't want to do real life work in a game. The game I play is like a mini cartoon vacation on my desk.

Games I've looked at and rejected because of content:
Eve Online (and all open PK games)
World of Warcraft (too much warcraft and as crowded as a subway terminal)
The Forsaken (or something like that; it actually encourages players to earn the title of Murderer by killing innocent, unarmed characters)

The games I rejected for crappy graphics are too numerous to list.

Games I'd try if I had a PC:
Voyage Century
Pirates of the Burning Sea
KAL Online

I think online RPGs are one of the waves of the future - a new form of socializing that will likely remain popular for many, many years. I think people should be able to play any kind of game they like -- whether it be role-play or action, war or fantasy, glorified chat-rooms with pictures, or even sex party games. I only demand that we all be honest about what we are doing and stop pretending that these games don't include social interactions that have a real impact on people's lives, or that what we choose to do in them is not a reflection of who we are, or that it comes from any place other than our own minds.

You are either both the same person or somehow both pretty damn dense. I was referring to the EULA with that part of the statement.
A) If you don't understand something, you should not sign it or click "I Agree" until you get it explained.

B) Brother, if you think a EULA is legalese, you should try reading a tax code one of these days, or some actual legislation, or an intellectual property contract (like a recording contract), or even just a really fat commercial lease.

EULAs are not complicated documents, and their language is clear and simple. And they are all the same, everywhere you go.

I'm thinking I'm not the dense one here.

Doubly so for the fact that you think a EULA is complex legal language
Of course, I'm the dense one because I don't read 5 pages of legal ass covering as opposed to not being able to read a person's single one line post properly.

I suggest you reread everything so you know you read it right the first time if you couldn't understand what I said.

Of course, I'm the dense one because I don't read 5 pages

Yes, because you didn't bother to read the legally binding contract you agreed to.

That is stupid. Period.

There is no other way to describe it. No way to justify it. Agreeing to something when you don't have any fucking clue what you are agreeing to is stupid.

Of course, I'm the dense one because I don't read 5 pages of legal ass covering as opposed to not being able to read a person's single one line post properly.

I suggest you reread everything so you know you read it right the first time if you couldn't understand what I said.
Haha, you're funny. With the proviso that I'm not the one who called you dense -- and that you were the one who started calling me and Arthais dense first, just for the record -- if you are dense, it would be because you are accepting terms that are legally binding upon you without checking them out first.

And if we missed that you meant that the EULA is unreadable, it may be because neither of us could imagine someone not being able to follow such a short, simple document.

Yes, because you didn't bother to read the legally binding contract you agreed to.

That is stupid. Period.

There is no other way to describe it. No way to justify it. Agreeing to something when you don't have any fucking clue what you are agreeing to is stupid.
Especially if its The Official List of things you're not supposed to do, and if it states clearly that, if you do those things, you will be kicked out and they will keep your money.

Anything that starts with "By accepting these terms, you agree..." should be read very carefully, word by word, if only to see if, later on, it contains the words "No refund" which the Eve Online Terms of Use do.

If you don't understand something, you should not sign it or click "I Agree" until you get it explained.
Are you sure you use a computer? If so, you must not use any extra software that didn't come with it.
Buy a game (NWN 2, UT 2k4, Civ IV, Civ IV: Warlords, Homeworld, HW: Cataclysm, Baldur's Gate, Just Cause, Half Life 2, Dark Messiah of M&M, X-Men Legends 2: Rise of Apocalypse, Age of Empires II, ...)? New EULA
Switch to Firefox? New EULA
Switch to Thunderbird? New EULA
New version of Bit Comet out? New EULA
Major update to Guild Wars? New EULA
etc etc.

I like to use my computer with my software and my games without hiring a personal attorney

And if we missed that you meant that the EULA is unreadable, it may be because neither of us could imagine someone not being able to follow such a short, simple document.
A two page EULA for every piece of software I own in a format non-conducive to reading.
That's a lot of barely readable pages.

Anything that starts with "By accepting these terms, you agree..." should be read very carefully, word by word, if only to see if, later on, it contains the words "No refund" which the Eve Online Terms of Use do.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that they won't give you back your money after banning you from the game, regardless of what you pay for. The EULA is the legal ass cover for common knowledge.

<snip>
If you don't understand something, you should not sign it or click "I Agree" until you get it explained.
Are you sure you use a computer? If so, you must not use any extra software that didn't come with it.
Buy a game (NWN 2, UT 2k4, Civ IV, Civ IV: Warlords, Homeworld, HW: Cataclysm, Baldur's Gate, Just Cause, Half Life 2, Dark Messiah of M&M, X-Men Legends 2: Rise of Apocalypse, Age of Empires II, ...)? New EULA
Switch to Firefox? New EULA
Switch to Thunderbird? New EULA
New version of Bit Comet out? New EULA
Major update to Guild Wars? New EULA
etc etc.

I like to use my computer with my software and my games without hiring a personal attorney
Ah-ah-ah, naughty, naughty -- quoting my post without attributing it to me, thus making it seem as if Arthais had said that.

And you can quit hinting around that you might be gearing up to calling me a liar. I can read. So can you, or you wouldn't be here. I read everything I sign on paper or accept online. Period. And I do not need a lawyer to hold my hand while I do it. When you've read as many of these as I have, they fly right by. It's very easy to spot where something is missing or different from last time. It takes all of 5 - 10 minutes of my time to read the docs before signing. If there is a disupte later on, I consider it time well spent.

Just because you may be too lazy or impatient to look out for your own interests, is no reason go around insulting people who choose to be more careful.

A two page EULA for every piece of software I own in a format non-conducive to reading.
That's a lot of barely readable pages.
That's a lame excuse. It doesn't change the fact that, by signing/clicking "accept" you are binding yourself to their terms.

And I think we have already established that they are not "barely readable" to everyone. Arthais and I have no trouble reading them quickly, and we outnumber you 2 to 1.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that they won't give you back your money after banning you from the game, regardless of what you pay for. The EULA is the legal ass cover for common knowledge.
Ah, so if it's common knowledge, then you must have already known that harrassing people is not considered part of the game (as you claimed) but is in fact prohibited, since it says so in the EULA and the EULA only says things that are common knowledge.

I like to use my computer with my software and my games without hiring a personal attorney

Fortunatly I am my own personal attorney.

Mur is close enough.

More to point, if you think that these documents, which are basically as simple as contracts get, are complex legal documents, I pray you never actually have to enter a REAL contract.

I'm tired of this gibbering over EULA's.
Let's go back to how virtual rape is emotionally charged term for at most indirect sexual harassment.

Fortunatly I am my own personal attorney.

Mur is close enough.

More to point, if you think that these documents, which are basically as simple as contracts get, are complex legal documents, I pray you never actually have to enter a REAL contract.
Hell, Arthais, I barely finished high school (despite being in the top 5% of NYC students in all areas but math; I was a bit of a delinquent), yet I can read, write, argue and explain things well enough to be the kind of legal secretary lawyers mistake for a lawyer. Gosh, I wonder how that could be? I must be some one-of-a-kind prodigy. /sarcasm/

What I am is a person who pays attention to what's going on around me, and that seems to make all the difference.

As amusing as the circle jerk is, let's return to the point already.

I'm tired of this gibbering over EULA's.
Let's go back to how virtual rape is emotionally charged term for at most indirect sexual harassment.
Dusting off your first strawman? Forget it.

1) Nobody in this thread is calling the OP incident "rape," virtual or otherwise.

2) There is nothing indirect about the harrassment.

3) Harrassment, in and of itself, is against the law, so calling it what it really was doesn't make it less of an issue.

As amusing as the circle jerk is, let's return to the point already.
I'll just mark you down as conceding the point then, shall I?

Quitter.

EDIT: You have fun thinking up more strawmen and fallacies to throw at us. I have to go take some decongestants and get some sleep. (That's right I can even read the Eve Online EULA with the flu.)

1) Nobody in this thread is calling the OP incident "rape," virtual or otherwise.
Besides it being in the topic.

2) There is nothing indirect about the harrassment.
Besides that it was virtual.

I remember a time when many games required you to scroll all the way to the bottom of the agreement before you could tick the box.
Most EULA can be summed up in the following points:
-This is our work, you can use it on your computer but on one elses
-If someone is repeatedly pissing you off online and making obscene comments, we're required/not required to remove them but we are not legally responsible for your trauma
:cool:

Unless you read the one for Age of Empires 2 on my high school's network, which my friend hacked and now reads "Microsoft will seek compensation via fines, anal probing, or sacrifices of first born sons.":D

Besides it being in the topic.

Because SHE called it that. Not that any of us did.

Besides that it was virtual.

Which is irrelevant.

I don't know about "rape", but there is a general disdain, and lack of respect for women on SL.

There are the opportunities to get jobs, (keep in mind, the in world currency can be converted to USD and Euros, I believe) Unfortunately, unless you are talented in designing and/or scripting objects, the only jobs for women are in the sex industry. When someone gets a job as a "dancer" or "hostess" (most often code words for "escort") the bosses call all the dancers "sisters". They will tell you it's to give it a "family" feel, and to discourage competition. What it does, is often make a woman feel like she can't quit...as she doesn't want to "let her sisters down."

It happened to me, as I was hired as a "hostess" for a small club. I figured a hostess would greet patrons, and let them know certain policies, etc. As soon as I learned that cybersex was part of the job, I quit. (I just don't see the need. I figured that an easy hostess job would get me the money I needed to buy stuff in game. I'm not looking to supplement my income, or anything) I know someone else, who is still working for the slimeball. He has told her he loves her, and that she is his one and only. (I happen to know he is married, so I guess she isn't his one and only) She complains that she is being taken advantage of, and yet she doesn't quit, doesn't walk out, because he "needs her", and she doens't want to let her family down...etc.

It seems a bit skewed, in that the men are the owners, and women are the sex employees. (though it also amazes me that people will pay for fake sex, and it isn't cheap either) I've just decided I don't need to buy anything, and a friend of mine (both of us female) have opened a completely sex free club. It's basically for fun, if we make money, we make money, if we don't, then we don't.


What kind of nonsense is this?