NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/commentary/sexdrive/2007/05/sexdrive_0504

I honestly wonder if real rape, rather than a rape "scene", is even possible in SL. Note, I don't play it.

I guess this may be the first sign of our transition into a full cyberculture.

What kind of fucked-up douchebag finds it necessary or even funny to virtually rape another person's avatar in a game? I swear, the internet brings out the worst in a lot of people.

I've spent a week in Second Life and all I've managed to do was finally get off orientation island, accidentally teleport into the middle of someone's roleplaying game, and change from a fox to a dragon. (I don't want to be either, I just want to be a dude.)

I don't know how people get in their cars (every time I try I end up carrying it instead...) much less how they'd rape people.

Now that I've had my ludite rant, that was an interesting article.

What kind of fucked-up douchebag finds it necessary or even funny to virtually rape another person's avatar in a game? I swear, the internet brings out the worst in a lot of people.

It's that whole disconnection with the fact that there is another human being on the other end, and the belief that there are no consequences for their actions. So the little fuckers who pull wings of insects come on here and engage the extention of their fucked up little selves in a way they wouldn't do in real life because there would be immediate consequence. Some times the internet is disturbing in its ability to show how close to the surface we are from being fucking savages.

Huh? I really, honestly just don't comprehend what happened.

Some person's avatar "forced" some other person's avatar to have sex? How is that even possible?

It's that whole disconnection with the fact that there is another human being on the other end, and the belief that there are no consequences for their actions. So the little fuckers who pull wings of insects come on here and engage the extention of their fucked up little selves in a way they wouldn't do in real life because there would be immediate consequence. Some times the internet is disturbing in its ability to show how close to the surface we are from being fucking savages.

I have to say, one of the things I really appreciate about this place is the level of moderation for just that sort of issue. I've wandered into some other online fora (autoadmit comes to mind) and the level of misogyny (including statements like "that **** ought to be raped in real life" and then including info like where she goes to the gym), racism and anti-semitism in those places is mind-boggling.

And if you are inclined to pooh-pooh this, first read author Julian Dibble's chapter about a rape that occurred in a text-only MOO in the early '90s.)
If RP'ers are so obsessed as that they can be raped in a text-only game, they should be mentally examined. I don't care what the rest of the article says, this is absurd. Are we now going to go around having police investigate the crime of homicide in games with PvP anywhere and no level rules on it?

Some person's avatar "forced" some other person's avatar to have sex? How is that even possible?
A better question is why are police are investigating it.

I have to say, one of the things I really appreciate about this place is the level of moderation for just that sort of issue. I've wandered into some other online fora (autoadmit comes to mind) and the level of misogyny (including statements like "that **** ought to be raped in real life" and then including info like where she goes to the gym), racism and anti-semitism in those places is mind-boggling.

Hehe. Ya know, I just had a wakeup call to how moderated this place is. On another forum (one related to cybernations), I logged on to find my signature had been edited by a moderator. It's a testiment to the civilioty of that forum that, after 4 weeks of frequenting it, I didn't even know they had moderators! :eek:

Hehe. Ya know, I just had a wakeup call to how moderated this place is. On another forum (one related to cybernations), I logged on to find my signature had been edited by a moderator. It's a testiment to the civilioty of that forum that, after 4 weeks of frequenting it, I didn't even know they had moderators! :eek:

You know, though, I'll take it here. It's real easy to get over-immersed in an online world, which is why I took a break from this place for a while, and why I'll vanish for a day or two at times.

I agree with the pantless hero: this is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. You charecter gets raped online. So you become a disturbed, depressed person? Cyberbullying I can understand. But RPG rape? It takes a very weak person to become tramitised from oneline rape. So cancel your acount and get off. Or kill the guy in the game. Or if it's texting, avoid that area. My god, are people stupid these days? Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.

I actually couldn't stand Second Life, jeez it had very bad graphics, I just couldn't get past the bad graphics of it.

I agree with the pantless hero: this is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. You charecter gets raped online. So you become a disturbed, depressed person? Cyberbullying I can understand. But RPG rape? It takes a very weak person to become tramitised from oneline rape. So cancel your acount and get off. Or kill the guy in the game. Or if it's texting, avoid that area. My god, are people stupid these days? Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.

Do you really need to ask that?

I agree with the pantless hero: this is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. You charecter gets raped online. So you become a disturbed, depressed person? Cyberbullying I can understand. But RPG rape? It takes a very weak person to become tramitised from oneline rape. So cancel your acount and get off. Or kill the guy in the game. Or if it's texting, avoid that area. My god, are people stupid these days? Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.

Ummm--what else is virtual rape other than an extreme form of cyber-bullying? I think you need to reconsider what you've actually said here.

so they find that person then what :rolleyes:

so they find that person then what :rolleyes:

I think what happened was that they consented to sex, but when they realized that they just cybered with someone that was the same sex as they are, then they cried virtual rape.

Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds.

so they find that person then what :rolleyes:
Nothing--it's not a crime. Doesn't change that it's a shitty thing to do.
I think what happened was that they consented to sex, but when they realized that they just cybered with someone that was the same sex as they are, then they cried virtual rape.

Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds.
The really stupid thing here is your comment--you manage to minimize date rape while contributing nothing of worth to the rest of the conversation. Great work.

The really stupid thing here is your comment--you manage to minimize date rape while contributing nothing of worth to the rest of the conversation. Great work.

I was talking about the stupidity of 'virtual rape', jeez, how the hell did you make that leap of logic. "Well Wilgrove is making fun of the stupidity of Virtual Rape, Ooo that must mean he minimized date rape! Jeez....

I think what happened was that they consented to sex, but when they realized that they just cybered with someone that was the same sex as they are, then they cried virtual rape.

Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds.
It would only be as stupid as it sounds if the police wern't involved. Instead it's as stupid as it sounds squared.

Nothing--it's not a crime. Doesn't change that it's a shitty thing to do.

so really they just wasting time and money look into a shitty thing they can't do a thing about

I was talking about the stupidity of 'virtual rape', jeez, how the hell did you make that leap of logic. "Well Wilgrove is making fun of the stupidity of Virtual Rape, Ooo that must mean he minimized date rape! Jeez....

Go back and reread that post again--that construction of "she probably got drunk" etc is a minimization of real date rape. That you tried, badly, to make it into a joke about this story doesn't change that. Date rape is a major problem, and joking about it like whenever a woman makes the claim she's just feeling regret doesn't help the issue any.

The really stupid thing here is your comment--you manage to minimize date rape while contributing nothing of worth to the rest of the conversation. Great work.
How did he minimize date rape?
Even if I accepted this as rape, you attacking him says worse about you than him. What the person did minimizes rape and makes it look worse for the victim. But seeing as how I don't accept this as anything more than harassment, your opinion that this is "minimizing date rape" is doubly stupid.

Go back and reread that post again--that construction of "she probably got drunk" etc is a minimization of real date rape.
What the fuck are you smoking? You've lost your mind.

Go back and reread that post again--that construction of "she probably got drunk" etc is a minimization of real date rape. That you tried, badly, to make it into a joke about this story doesn't change that. Date rape is a major problem, and joking about it like whenever a woman makes the claim she's just feeling regret doesn't help the issue any.

You are an idiot, honestly you really really are. I mean God, do you actually read what people write, or do you just smash your head against the screen and smash your hand against the keyboard and somehow it comes out as your post? Honestly, if you're going to actually debate, you might want to actually read what the damn person wrote!

Now, since you obviously need your hand held in this process, let's look at what I said, in the context of a virtual world such as Second Life.

think what happened was that they consented to sex, but when they realized that they just cybered with someone that was the same sex as they are, then they cried virtual rape.

No where in that statement, did I mention ANYTHING about her getting drunk, or anything that HAS to do with virtual rape. All I said was that the two online players consented to sex, because if this is anything like any other MMO out there, you have to accept to duel, do emotes or whatever, so obviously the person accepted to this 'virtual sex' but whoever ininated the sex revealed that it was the same sex as the person who consented or accepted, and now they're crying rape.

So there, try to turn THAT into me making fun of date rape.

You are an idiot, honestly you really really are. I mean God, do you actually read what people write, or do you just smash your head against the screen and smash your hand against the keyboard and somehow it comes out as your post? Honestly, if you're going to actually debate, you might want to actually read what the damn person wrote!

Now, since you obviously need your hand held in this process, let's look at what I said, in the context of a virtual world such as Second Life.



No where in that statement, did I mention ANYTHING about her getting drunk, or anything that HAS to do with virtual rape. All I said was that the two online players consented to sex, because if this is anything like any other MMO out there, you have to accept to duel, do emotes or whatever, so obviously the person accepted to this 'virtual sex' but whoever ininated the sex revealed that it was the same sex as the person who consented or accepted, and now they're crying rape.

So there, try to turn THAT into me making fun of date rape.

I'm sorry--I read the drunk part into that. You're right.

That said, you made a leap that the article and the story didn't which is apparently what I focused on. You acted as though the victim was feeling regret for an action and then turned it into a rape charge, which is what victims are often accused of in date rape. There is a parallel there--not as severe a parallel as I made it sound like in my original reply, but it is there. Rape victims have a hard enough time of it as it is without bystanders acting as though they wanted sex and then felt regret afterward--cyber or otherwise.

Don't play, but I might provide some insight. I play EVE Online, a space MMO noted for (apart from rocking) total PvP. When people complain about it on the forums, many of the answers follow the lines of "It's EVE. There's total PvP. Get over it, or go play something else." And, to an extent, I agree with them. Sadly, my CHARACTER doesn't agree with them, so "It's just a game" won't stop me from putting several dozen missiles into a pirate who attacked me (or anyone I'm allied with) previously.

I'm sorry--I read the drunk part into that. You're right.

That said, you made a leap that the article and the story didn't which is apparently what I focused on. You acted as though the victim was feeling regret for an action and then turned it into a rape charge, which is what victims are often accused of in date rape. There is a parallel there--not as severe a parallel as I made it sound like in my original reply, but it is there. Rape victims have a hard enough time of it as it is without bystanders acting as though they wanted sex and then felt regret afterward--cyber or otherwise.

Apology accepted, and you are right, REAL rape is serious, and any accusations of real rape should be taken seriously. I just don't give virtual rape the same creditability, because well it's virtual, and if you really think about it, virtual rape actually hurts the real rape victim even more, so virtual rape is not only stupid, it can be damaging too.

I think what happened was that they consented to sex, but when they realized that they just cybered with someone that was the same sex as they are, then they cried virtual rape.

Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds.

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

Cookie for reference.

Or maybe they're just from /b/ on 4chan?

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

I'm a rhino.

Isn't playing a game like second life or any kind of RPG just like improvised acting? I mean, it could be considered harrassment if someone was forced (how?) to play the rape victim, but otherwise, how is it any different to a forum poster flaming?

A better question is why are police are investigating it.

i know the police are investigating SL to search for child porn (in Belgium it's childporn even if there were no real children participating in the production). i don't know why they are searching for 'rape'.

REAL rape is serious, and any accusations of real rape should be taken seriously. I just don't give virtual rape the same creditability, because well it's virtual, and if you really think about it, virtual rape actually hurts the real rape victim even more, so virtual rape is not only stupid, it can be damaging too.

I think that about sums it up.

What I don't get is how you can possibly be 'raped' in an online game. Given the option to block a person's communication or even log out, how could you be?

Isn't playing a game like second life or any kind of RPG just like improvised acting? I mean, it could be considered harrassment if someone was forced (how?) to play the rape victim, but otherwise, how is it any different to a forum poster flaming?

I think that about sums it up.

What I don't get is how you can possibly be 'raped' in an online game. Given the option to block a person's communication or even log out, how could you be?

I've never played SL, but I have seen other stories about how characters can force their actions on other, unwilling players in the past. For instance, a few months ago, there was a story about how SL gamers had vandalized the John Edwards for President SL headquarters--if you could simply block them, that wouldn't happen. I suspect the rape issue is something similar.

I'm a rhino.

Cookie :)

http://twiggs.org/images/5203-bakery-crisp-chocolate-chip-cookie.jpg

Hahahahaha...In SL, you can do almost anything.

Hahahahaha...In SL, you can do almost anything.

Except have a real life! :p

Shouldn't the suspect be charged virtually?

Since real rape--> real trial, why isn't it virtual rape----> virtual trial?

It's not like anything actually happened to the 'victim'. The day SL can make your computer grow... stuff... is the day I take this seriously.

I've been raped on NSG. It was incredibly traumatic.

I wonder what would happen if a person, IRL, went up to another person and started saying "I'm raping you! I'm raping you!", or whatever it is that people would emote if they were virtually raping someone. Would they actually get charged with rape?

I wonder what would happen if a person, IRL, went up to another person and started saying "I'm raping you! I'm raping you!", or whatever it is that people would emote if they were virtually raping someone. Would they actually get charged with rape?

there's only one way to find out...
make sure to catch it on tape and to post the movie here.

I wonder what would happen if a person, IRL, went up to another person and started saying "I'm raping you! I'm raping you!", or whatever it is that people would emote if they were virtually raping someone. Would they actually get charged with rape?

I'd imagine that'd constitute a threat.

Online "rape" should be construed as extreme harassment and/or threat, nothing more unless it's followed up by actual physical rape in the real world.

Were Second Life more like conventional MMORPGs, then I would suggest having the sysops slap a huge bounty on the offender's ass, giving out decent rewards to any and all players who smack the shit out of the fucker. A Bounty System if you will. Being everyone's pinata bitch 24/7 after cyberraping someone'll oughta learn ya.

I found the Front National vs Anti-Front National 'war' funny, even if I never used second life.

Does this mean people who play Halo online can be charged with rape for squatting?

This is bullshit.

You can log out on an online game. You can't log out in the real world.

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/commentary/sexdrive/2007/05/sexdrive_0504

I honestly wonder if real rape, rather than a rape "scene", is even possible in SL. Note, I don't play it.

I guess this may be the first sign of our transition into a full cyberculture.

My first reaction to this was "Oh FFS", as I suspect was the case for many others. But it got me to thinking about the nature of experience, and how much of what we perceive is strongly influenced by our own beliefs.

I remember someone saying IRL that road rage is facilitated by the belief that your car is an extension of your body, and so your "personal space" is made extraordinarily large while driving. So yeah, an online avatar is just a bunch of code and no more a part of you than your computer; and on that level the absurdity of it all is plain. But for some people, their inner life could be so dominated by their online experience that it becomes a genuine extension of their person... at least in their own mind.

It sort of goes with the theory that in the real world, you can tell if someone is joking or serious or whatnot. You can't always tell online so some might take the better too much than not enough line of thought and take even a threat of SL rape seriously. Honestly, you don't know that the person on the other end doesn't wish they could rape you if they had the chance. Of course, if that's your thing and it's play rape or you like reenacting Law and Order SVU the next day, that's an entirely different story. I would say to take this on a more case by case basis. I'm pretty sure in SL you can "nuke" other people without their OK so you can probably rape them as well. Some probably do it to be jerks or whatever, others might take a perverse enjoyment out of it. It's probably entirely dependent from person to person.

If RP'ers are so obsessed as that they can be raped in a text-only game, they should be mentally examined. I don't care what the rest of the article says, this is absurd. Are we now going to go around having police investigate the crime of homicide in games with PvP anywhere and no level rules on it?

Luporum arrested for brutal murder of over 30,000

Police apprehended the maniacle gamer after a deadly shoot out on Wake Island. Six officers were critically wounded, but immediately revived by the heroic actions of a single medic. The suspect is believed to have killed 30,000 in the Battlefield universe alone, and claims he's killed in the millions across gamespace everywhere.

"We've spent the last week totaling the damage this 'Luporum' caused in Liberty City, Vice City, and the Greater San Andreas Region. We're about one tenth of the way complete. It's a major step in bringing justice to the lawless hell that is the gamespace." said police captain heading the investigations that may bring charges against millions of people worldwide.

I've been raped on NSG. It was incredibly traumatic.
Indeed, I feel that all victims of NSG-Rape should gather together and press for legal action against those who fluffle first and ask for consent later.

Luporum arrested for brutal murder of over 30,000

Police apprehended the maniacle gamer after a deadly shoot out on Wake Island. Six officers were critically wounded, but immediately revived by the heroic actions of a single medic. The suspect is believed to have killed 30,000 in the Battlefield universe alone, and claims he's killed in the millions across gamespace everywhere.

"We've spent the last week totaling the damage this 'Luporum' caused in Liberty City, Vice City, and the Greater San Andreas Region. We're about one tenth of the way complete. It's a major step in bringing justice to the lawless hell that is the gamespace." said police captain heading the investigations that may bring charges against millions of people worldwide.

i think i saw you in Liberty City, Vice City, and the Greater San Andreas Region on my mad run trip to them

Why rape someone in SL when you can just rape the whole game? Let everyone experience the horrors of replicating muddy dicks and goatse boxes.

I've spent a week in Second Life and all I've managed to do was finally get off orientation island, accidentally teleport into the middle of someone's roleplaying game, and change from a fox to a dragon. (I don't want to be either, I just want to be a dude.)

I don't know how people get in their cars (every time I try I end up carrying it instead...) much less how they'd rape people.

Now that I've had my ludite rant, that was an interesting article.

I'm still stuck on the island

I think the article's assessment is right on. "Virtual rape" is certainly neither equivalent to or as serious as real rape, but that doesn't mean it's not an utterly repulsive thing to do. I don't know what the laws are in Belgium, so I'm not able to state whether someone engaging in such behavior could reasonably be charged with anything, but I'd certainly consider it both possible and reasonable that they might be charged with stalking, harassment, or something along those general lines.

I don't know about "rape", but there is a general disdain, and lack of respect for women on SL.

There are the opportunities to get jobs, (keep in mind, the in world currency can be converted to USD and Euros, I believe) Unfortunately, unless you are talented in designing and/or scripting objects, the only jobs for women are in the sex industry. When someone gets a job as a "dancer" or "hostess" (most often code words for "escort") the bosses call all the dancers "sisters". They will tell you it's to give it a "family" feel, and to discourage competition. What it does, is often make a woman feel like she can't quit...as she doesn't want to "let her sisters down."

It happened to me, as I was hired as a "hostess" for a small club. I figured a hostess would greet patrons, and let them know certain policies, etc. As soon as I learned that cybersex was part of the job, I quit. (I just don't see the need. I figured that an easy hostess job would get me the money I needed to buy stuff in game. I'm not looking to supplement my income, or anything) I know someone else, who is still working for the slimeball. He has told her he loves her, and that she is his one and only. (I happen to know he is married, so I guess she isn't his one and only) She complains that she is being taken advantage of, and yet she doesn't quit, doesn't walk out, because he "needs her", and she doens't want to let her family down...etc.

It seems a bit skewed, in that the men are the owners, and women are the sex employees. (though it also amazes me that people will pay for fake sex, and it isn't cheap either) I've just decided I don't need to buy anything, and a friend of mine (both of us female) have opened a completely sex free club. It's basically for fun, if we make money, we make money, if we don't, then we don't.

I don't know...It's not for everyone. I don't notice the graphics sucking. I do notice that without a scripted fix, the avatars walk like gorillas, that's kind of annoying...For me, all my friends live far away from me, so it's a way to hang out with multiple friend and talk, or even go to different virtual venues...there are amusement parks, beaches, dance clubs...so it works for me. My husband thinks it's weird, but he doesn't understand talking to people on forums either. I don't think it's the "new internet" as Linden Labs would like you to think, but it's a nice diversion when I need one.

Honestly...Second Life is one of the few reasons why I think we should just launch all of our nukes at once and burn ourselves off of the face of the Earth.

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

Cookie for reference.

Bloodninja! That shit made me laugh so hard I cried.

I'm a rhino.
Yo can't be a rhino because everyone knows rhinoceroses don't play games. They fuckin' charge your ass.

Yo can't be a rhino because everyone knows rhinoceroses don't play games. They fuckin' charge your ass.

Don't fuk with me bitch, I'm the mightiest sorcerer of the lands.

Don't fuk with me bitch, I'm the mightiest sorcerer of the lands.
I stomp the ground, and snort, to alert you that you are in my breeding territory.

I stomp the ground, and snort, to alert you that you are in my breeding territory.
I steal yo soul and cast Lightning Lvl. 1,000,000


PS. I think this is appropriate (or inappropriate rather).
http://www.itsoverninethousand.com/bloodninja-enters-second-life/

At one point, I knew a particularly ill-mannered fellow who would go start having cybersex with someone and then suddenly change gears and say he was casting a fireball spell and killing them (etc etc). He did it for a cheap laugh; I'd call him a jerk.

On the flip side, I know of a forum where *rapes* is a common greeting (*tentaclerapes*, too) and everybody expects it.

I think there's a lot of adjustment to be made on both sides of the issue (both in terms of avatar identification by people and respectful treatment of others' avatars by other people), but key is going to be that everybody knows what is and is not going to happen in the game.

I steal yo soul and cast Lightning Lvl. 1,000,000


PS. I think this is appropriate (or inappropriate rather).
http://www.itsoverninethousand.com/bloodninja-enters-second-life/
Yup, sounds like Greg alright. Still being an asshole after all this time. I'd hoped he'd have grown up by now.

The more I hear about second life the more I wonder how screwed up the world is and how bad it will get in SOE's PlayStation "home".

"Kimberly Trip" makes this thread five times more phunny.

Do you really wanna date my avatar?

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/commentary/sexdrive/2007/05/sexdrive_0504

I honestly wonder if real rape, rather than a rape "scene", is even possible in SL. Note, I don't play it.

I guess this may be the first sign of our transition into a full cyberculture.


Sadly it does, I've heard of RP guys ICly raping female characters of other players on myspace RPs. :( And lets not forget that one imp that was mentioned here with the 4 year old craving sex due to the fucked up 12 year old next door and the internet (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=524051).

I don't play Second Life. Never have, never will.

I've played a few MUDs, a few RPGs, and, on occasion, engaged in `interesting' conversation online. For what it's worth, here's my two cents.

There is something about virtual realities that takes you into them, and makes what happens in them suprisingly real. Not physically real, but emotionally real. Why do you think people get turned on by cybersex? There's nothing real happening, all that's happening is you're talking to somebody who you may not even know. Even so, people do have boundaries, thing's they won't do and wouldn't ever consider doing.

Seems illogical, doesn't it?

For most people their online boundaries, of any sort, are significantly more generous than their real life ones. They won't do anything near what they'll do online in real life. If you think about it, there's not any reason to not do anything you like online - it doesn't affect you in real life, does it?

If you answered no, you're wrong.

There's something about even textual descriptions of sex, that brings a similar level of emotional commitment into it that you'll feel with reality. Less, admittedly, but still enough that if you feel violated by somebody else, if they cross your boundaries that you've set, that you will feel violated. If you're cajoled into sex in real life, will you feel hurt and regretful about it? Of course you will. What if it happens through a plain internet text link? Would you still feel hurt then?

Yes.

Sex is such an inbuilt, biologically central, thing, that going past boundaries, even if you're thousands of miles away from them in real life, can still hurt and destroy trust and relationships. I've accidentaly stepped over the line before, and there is a sudden change in everything that makes it completely different and unnaceptable.

Cyber-rape is like this. It's taking somebody's virtual body and doing things with it they haven't consented to, and it can destroy somebody's mental state, just as strongly as cyber-bullying.

And that is why it's wrong. I'l admit it should not be investigated by the police as a real rape, but harrasment, mental damage, etc., are all perfectly valid complaints.

As a final word to those you say `Just log off' or `Delete the character if it worries you so much', people will end up with so much of a mental investment into their digital personas that they can't do that? You invest into a pseudonym, a name, something that gives you a virtual identity every bit as strong, if not stronger, than your real one, and it is fucking hard to throw that away because someone else has done stuff with it you didn't want them to.

A name is a currency on NSG, where we don't even engage in RP. Think how much more is bound up in it on somewhere like Second Life or LambdaMOO

If you've read the article, follow the link to the story from a 1990s MOO and read it.

That's all for now, I'll probably expand and clarify on this tomorrow.

As a final word to those you say `Just log off' or `Delete the character if it worries you so much', people will end up with so much of a mental investment into their digital personas that they can't do that? You invest into a pseudonym, a name, something that gives you a virtual identity every bit as strong, if not stronger, than your real one, and it is fucking hard to throw that away because someone else has done stuff with it you didn't want them to.

Get therapy, now. No matter how much you have vested in your character, it is still a character, the end.

Or you will end up like all the other mentally deranged addicts who kill themselves over some one PKing them and looting their shit.

This is a surprisingly complicated matter.

1) Obviously, no actual rape or crime occurred. But, as has been pointed out, pornography laws vary from place to place, and SL seems to include content that is illegal in at least some countries and is being investigated for that. If, as was also mentioned, SL pushes female characters into being sex workers, that may also qualify as a "pornification" (if you will) of the game. This is a game that appeals to and is used by teens below the age of consent as well as adults. It is illegal to show porn to children. Therefore, SL could be in trouble in a lot of places if it does nothing to control sexual content. If the sex -- whether consentual or rape -- in the game involves chat, in which people might reveal real information about themselves, then I fail to see how this could not be seen as a danger zone for potential pedophiles and stalkers. So, maybe, it's not so dumb that the incident is a police matter.

It might be different if "sex worker" was only a player-driven job. So, your character can have sex, and you choose to make your living in game as a prostitute by trading sex for money with other players. That's not the game developer's problem if people choose to do that. But if the game itself demands that women must be sex workers in order to work in clubs or whatever, that's an entirely different matter that is most certainly the developer's responsibility.

2) The question of where reality leaves off and game begins goes both ways. People who play these games have to realize that they are out in public, not in an enclosed, "safe" environment. They have to be careful about what they say and who they hang out with, just as in the "real world." Even in cyber-space, you are still in reality. There is no difference.

So to a person who might feel victimized, they need to keep their guard up and realize they are surrounded by disguised strangers.

And to those who say, oh, what the fuck, it's just a game, let's rape women and destroy planets and launch nukes, it doesn't mean anything -- they're wrong, too. You are not disconnected from reality just because you are pretending that you are, and sex offense/pornography investigations into SL may prove that in the long run.

We have to remember that whatever we do, we are really doing it, and whatever we say, we are saying to someone.

3) I personally don't believe people who claim that nothing they do in game reflects who they are as people in reality. This is because it seems that relatively few players really get into actual role-play, which is essentially improv acting. I see very few players making any effort to stay "in character," and I see even fewer games emphasizing role-play itself. But I see plenty of games advertising all the outrageous things you'll get to do, and plenty of players talking about how much fun it is to do them. Not how much fun it is to be an actor playing different characters in different settings.

An actor who plays the role of a killer or rapist is not necessarily himself a danger to anyone. It is not his fantasy he is acting out. But can we be sure of this with game players? In a play or movie about rape, both the "rapist" and the "victim" are willing participants who have worked out together beforehand how the scene will go. In this situation, only one person was "playing the scene." The other was dragged into it against their will. I don't see how that qualifies as "role playing." Especially in a game where violence is not the main advertised activity.

4) For a long time now, I've been thinking that the no-consequences worlds of games is a bad idea. This notion that you can just rape someone or launch nukes or be a bad-ass, and nothing will happen to you is not just false but pernicious, precisely because most people are not "role-playing" but experimenting with their real fantasies.

I want to see games where bad consequences follow bad actions and vice versa, and dealing with that fact is part of the gameplay. Only a few games even try to address this right now.

The "legal analysis" link in the wired.com article is very interesting. This is it:

http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/04/24/open-roundtable-allegations-of-virtual-rape-bring-belgian-police-to-second-life

In addition, this comment, following the analysis, I found interesting:

12 Robbie [emphasis mine]
I’ve noticed a few responses here about the fact that the user could merely have turned off the computer, and due to this ability to escape, it means that the “sex” was optional and thus that no rape occurred. Firstly, date rape is an example of sex that is technically avoidable, yet due to socially constructed psychological issues, the victim is often unable to escape the situation. The victim may be too emotionally destablised by the inital attack to be able to respond appropriately, or, prior to attempting escape, the victim tries a number of escape methods which fail to work. Inability to effect an appropriate escape hardly neutralises the term of “rape” in this instance. Secondly, other criticism has noted that the victims of online rape cannot consider it rape because the characters are virtual, and have no bearing on the real world. Rape differs from sex beyond the basics of the physical struggle: it is also a mental issue which is primarily marked by a masculine domination through force, and subjectation of the victim. It is the psychological effects that are the most brutal. ...

All this, however, circumvents the fact that there is a person out there who will have - regardless of the victim’s reaction - considered themselves as having successfully raped someone online and congratulated themselves for it. This is an idea I, and hopefully many others, find incredibly disgusting.

Get therapy, now. No matter how much you have vested in your character, it is still a character, the end.

Or you will end up like all the other mentally deranged addicts who kill themselves over some one PKing them and looting their shit.

I should like to quickly apologise at the beginning of this message for possible incoherencies, repetitions, and grammatical errors in my message. The paragraphs will probably be in a somewhat illogical order, but hey, it's only the internet. This is quite simply a brain dump of thoughts, ideas, and opinions.

I don't play Second Life, any MUDs, any other MMORPGs, or any tabletop RPGs. I have dabbled in MUDs before, but that's about it. What do I need therapy for again?

Let me make this very fucking clear: I do not play Second Life. I never have, I probably never will. Everything I know about Second Life is gathered from news articles, and is likely to be incorrect. I'm just someone with a bit of an understanding of issues like this. I don't claim that what I say has any more intrinsic value than what anyone else says, nor that I somehow deserve to be listened to. All I'm saying is that here's my two bits about what this whole sorry affair. Got that?

I'm not approaching this from the angle most NSGers will be approaching it from - that of a somewhat normal person discussing it through an internet forum. I'm approaching from the angle of someone who's geeky enough, who spends enough times living in computers to realize, that digital selves are an extension of your real ones, and what gets done to them can be as hurtful as having it done to you.

If you spend long enough dissociated from (physical) reality, you change your frame of reference. People tend to be okay with PKing and such, you recognise it's likely to happen, on many games you have to opt-in to it. Very few games have opt-in for virtual rape.

Maybe you misunderstood some of what I said. I wasn't condoning the act being pursued as a real rape, or anything of the sort. I was just trying to point out the other side of the argument - does that mean I need to get therapy?

Roleplayers on II or NS aren't keen on your doing stuff with their characters/nations that they don't want you to - is that irrational?

From what I understand, Second Life is not merely a game for some people, it's how they earn their living. If you've done that, you can't just switch characters and tell all your friends who you are now. You'll have to rebuild your professional contacts, and you will take a drop in revenue while you do so.

I'll perfectly agree that a character is just a character. But it's what you've put into that character that counts. Virtual rape doesn't have the physical consequences of real rape, but it can have about the same mental effects. Basically, it's somebody else taking your hard work and using it for their pleasure, their own ends, without your permission. You don't end up physically harmed, there isn't any physical risk, but there is a line in practically everything, almost always with a player's character being raped against the players will, if not before. It's there in tabletop RPGs, in MUDs, in games like Second Life.

Why?

Because people have a boundary, have a line, have something that they hold sacred and that they don't want to happen to their person, and this line has been crossed. I will re-iterate what I said in my last post - read the article, read the links from there. Read the story of a rape on LambdaMOO, and read the guide to including rape in RPGs.

The responses people have to something like this aren't going to be anything you can understand if you've never played a game like LambdaMOO, Shattered World, Shadowrun, Dungeons and Dragons, Call of Cthulu. A game where you don't just roll dice and work out what happens, but where you take on a character, make them your own, and envision their responses. Sure, you shape the character, but, somehow, the character shapes you. You know how writers talk about the characters writing the story? How about when there's several writers, and one of them does something with another writer's character that they (the other writer) don't like.

Interestingly, it would seem to me that both the responses of the group as a whole, and the persons involved, will be different depending on the focus of the system and the group. A combat based group - a bunch of buddies playing a few rounds of D&D and going for the most hideously overpowered character they can, or someone grinding to level 70 on WoW - they'll be much more cut up if their character dies and loses kit than if they are raped. Why? They've kept one kind of perspective - that this is only a game - but lost the other - that it's not one designed for winning, but for taking part. You can end up in the reverse, where you remember it's about crafting an interesting story, and start to forget about the unreality of it. Even if you remember that at all points, the act of observing and changing the character will change you. Furthermore, you're implicitly trusting others not to go beyond certain lines, and when they do it has, shall we say, interesting effects.

That's basically all I have to say, so have at it. Feel free to call me out on any of these comments, and I'll defend them or abandon them as I feel is right.

No offense intended, in case I've managed to cause any.

In case you hadn't worked it out, I was a bit annoyed when I wrote the first couple paragraphs, I do apologise.

EDIT: If that's all in my post that you felt was necessary to haul out and criticise, thank you. It appears I was generally saying what I meant to.

From what I understand, Second Life is not merely a game for some people, it's how they earn their living. If you've done that, you can't just switch characters and tell all your friends who you are now. You'll have to rebuild your professional contacts, and you will take a drop in revenue while you do so.
It's still a character, the end.

Virtual rape doesn't have the physical consequences of real rape, but it can have about the same mental effects.
Get therapy because you (the general you, I don't want to read another long rant because you misunderstood what I said) because you are dangerously emotionally invested in the character. You are a danger to yourself, if not others. Imagine if everyone was that emotionally invested in their character in games with PKing.

I steal yo soul and cast Lightning Lvl. 1,000,000


PS. I think this is appropriate (or inappropriate rather).
http://www.itsoverninethousand.com/bloodninja-enters-second-life/

Omg, best article ever. I can't believe I read it at work.

Alright, I read the whole thread before responding to this article.

I understand that virtual rape can be traumatizing to somebody who has a predisposition to be traumatized. That may be somebody who spends a lot of time online, has significant financial/emotional investment in their character, and/or has been raped in RL.

I don't think it can be considered a crime on the level of RL rape. When they get more savvy about investigating/dealing with online crimes, I think online rape will be a special form of harassment or assault that could, at most, come with a fine, enforced counseling/group counseling, or community service. It's not going to happen for a long time though.

As a postscript, please don't rape my nation, even though I am so sexy. ;)

It's still a character, the end.


Get therapy because you (the general you, I don't want to read another long rant because you misunderstood what I said) because you are dangerously emotionally invested in the character. You are a danger to yourself, if not others. Imagine if everyone was that emotionally invested in their character in games with PKing.
Your responses seem remarkably shallow and dismissive compared to the thought UNIverseVerse put into his statements. Let me try to put it on a more game-like level for you. If you are playing war commando with all the other kids in the sandbox, and one of those kids, a bully, grabs your GI Joe, rips his head off and shoves it up his plastic butt (yes, I know that's not possible), while making fun of you as he does it, I do not believe that you will be completely sanguine about it and shrug it off as "just a part of the game" like some kind of latter-day Marcus Aurelius.

No, I believe that you will be angry and upset. You will be humiliated in a place where you thought you could relax and have fun, and you will suffer the negative emotional and physiological affects of that experience (recent studies indicate that humiliating and painful social embarrassments actually can cause physical pain and nausea responses). Your enjoyment of the game will be ruined, and in the future you will approach that sandbox with caution, in case that same bully is there again.

Your insistence that this is all about the character is missing the point. GI Joes are a dime a dozen and easily replaced. The issue is not about the toy -- whether it is a doll or an online puppet. It's about the person behind the toy, the person playing the game, and the negative affect is on that person. The hostility is toward the person. The pain is felt by the person. Get it?

Your responses seem remarkably shallow and dismissive compared to the thought UNIverseVerse put into his statements. Let me try to put it on a more game-like level for you. If you are playing war commando with all the other kids in the sandbox, and one of those kids, a bully, grabs your GI Joe, rips his head off and shoves it up his plastic butt (yes, I know that's not possible), while making fun of you as he does it, I do not believe that you will be completely sanguine about it and shrug it off as "just a part of the game" like some kind of latter-day Marcus Aurelius.
I'm not 2 any more. I'm not going to throw a tantrum or become mentally affected. Are you comparing that to virtual rape? All that sounds like to me is a further attack on the seriousness of real rape.

What kind of fucked-up douchebag finds it necessary or even funny to virtually rape another person's avatar in a game? I swear, the internet brings out the worst in a lot of people.

Well, in some games, you're allowed to go around and hack anyone down that you're able to hack down (with swords, etc).

If you can get away with it in game, it's fine.

I blow up other people's ships in a game every day. In a game where piracy is considered part and parcel of the game economy (as well as large scale interplanetary war).

Maybe the designers of Second Life should have thought about the ways that their game would be played.

About this issue that Pantless brings up about PKing and so on:

I play an MMORPG that allows PK only in designated areas. I'm not into PK, so I can easily avoid it. But I like to chat on the public channels and get into talk with PKers often. I've noticed two main types.

There are those for whom PK is a sport, like boxing. They generally look for evenly matched opponents and are pretty willing to return all or most of the stuff they take in victory, and will even heal defeated opponents afterwards. Sort of the game version of a handshake and "good game, better luck next time." Even in guild wars, such players are not hostile about it and emphasize the role-play of the guild war even more than the fighting.

Then there are what I consider the schoolyard bully types. They routinely use tricks and lies to try to lure players into fights unarmed or attack by surprise, and they also routinely target new players who have no chance against them. They get neither experience points nor valuable loot from such attacks, yet they do it all the time and brag about it on channels. When challenged about it, they always defend themselves by saying things like: "It's only a game; you take it too seriously." "It's not against the rules." And even, "I do people a favor by teaching them not to be weak and stupid."

I really don't see how anyone can not see the difference between these two ways of playing. The first is role-playing without personal hostility. The second is nothing but hostile and does not care whether the target gets emotionally hurt or not. Now take that attitude and apply it to more extreme kinds of violence, including sexual violence. People don't log onto a game in the expectation and hope that they will be lied to, bullied, and robbed by some virtual loser who thinks its fun to pick on others. They also don't log onto a game in the expectation that they will have a fun time fending off sexual assaults or harassment. I don't think it is unreasonable to get upset about such things.

By the way, in the game I play, there is another player who I particularly enjoy. He is a dedicated PKer, but he only targets bullies. Basically anyone who he knows makes a habit of picking on weaker players, will find themselves at war with him and his guild, who label themselves the Robin Hoods of the game. Every now and then, he will announce in public channels that someone has generously donated valuable items to charity, post a screenshot of himself killing the guy, and then go to some public place and give away the loot to newbie players who have been robbed by bullies before.

And you should read how the bully PKers complain about him and how he picks on them. It is a joy to behold. That's how you can tell you're dealing with a bully and not a role-player. It's only a game -- until they're on the losing end of it.

I've never played SL, but I have seen other stories about how characters can force their actions on other, unwilling players in the past. For instance, a few months ago, there was a story about how SL gamers had vandalized the John Edwards for President SL headquarters--if you could simply block them, that wouldn't happen. I suspect the rape issue is something similar.

In short, you don't know what you're talking about. In Second Life, there's this thing you can activate to allow the avatar to participate in sex acts. It's on the genitals. If you turn it on and forget to turn it off, people can click on it, and their avatar will walk up to the other avatar and thrust. That's all this is. There's no penetration. Just a poorly animated figure thrusting.

I'm not 2 any more. I'm not going to throw a tantrum or become mentally affected. Are you comparing that to virtual rape? All that sounds like to me is a further attack on the seriousness of real rape.
And that sounds to me like a strawman. Try reading my posts to see what my stance on this topic is.

*snip*

This has nothing to do with the point I was making.

I don't know about "rape", but there is a general disdain, and lack of respect for women on SL.

There are the opportunities to get jobs, (keep in mind, the in world currency can be converted to USD and Euros, I believe) Unfortunately, unless you are talented in designing and/or scripting objects, the only jobs for women are in the sex industry. When someone gets a job as a "dancer" or "hostess" (most often code words for "escort") the bosses call all the dancers "sisters". They will tell you it's to give it a "family" feel, and to discourage competition. What it does, is often make a woman feel like she can't quit...as she doesn't want to "let her sisters down."

It happened to me, as I was hired as a "hostess" for a small club. I figured a hostess would greet patrons, and let them know certain policies, etc. As soon as I learned that cybersex was part of the job, I quit. (I just don't see the need. I figured that an easy hostess job would get me the money I needed to buy stuff in game. I'm not looking to supplement my income, or anything) I know someone else, who is still working for the slimeball. He has told her he loves her, and that she is his one and only. (I happen to know he is married, so I guess she isn't his one and only) She complains that she is being taken advantage of, and yet she doesn't quit, doesn't walk out, because he "needs her", and she doens't want to let her family down...etc.

It seems a bit skewed, in that the men are the owners, and women are the sex employees. (though it also amazes me that people will pay for fake sex, and it isn't cheap either) I've just decided I don't need to buy anything, and a friend of mine (both of us female) have opened a completely sex free club. It's basically for fun, if we make money, we make money, if we don't, then we don't.

I don't know...It's not for everyone. I don't notice the graphics sucking. I do notice that without a scripted fix, the avatars walk like gorillas, that's kind of annoying...For me, all my friends live far away from me, so it's a way to hang out with multiple friend and talk, or even go to different virtual venues...there are amusement parks, beaches, dance clubs...so it works for me. My husband thinks it's weird, but he doesn't understand talking to people on forums either. I don't think it's the "new internet" as Linden Labs would like you to think, but it's a nice diversion when I need one.
Okay, this is a game, right? I don't even know where to start. I don't believe in blaming the victim, but I also don't understand "cyberbullying" either. Here's a quote from the OP's article:
There is no question that forced online sexual activity -- whether through text, animation, malicious scripts or other means -- is real
WTF? I mean, seriously, how can this be real? It's in an imaginary world! We're typing at cartoons! That's all any video game is, typing at a cartoon. I just don't get it :confused:

This has nothing to do with the point I was making.

It helps to keep at least the first line of the post you're responding to, so people will know what has nothing to do with your point.

And I know what your point is. That's what I said seemed shallow and dismissive. I was making a different point of my own based on what you said. Not in response or challenge directly to you (assuming I guessed right about which post you are responding to now).

It helps to keep at least the first line of the post you're responding to, so people will know what has nothing to do with your point.
That's what the green arrow is for. And the whole thing had nothing to do with it, which is why I snipped it.

In short, you don't know what you're talking about. In Second Life, there's this thing you can activate to allow the avatar to participate in sex acts. It's on the genitals. If you turn it on and forget to turn it off, people can click on it, and their avatar will walk up to the other avatar and thrust. That's all this is. There's no penetration. Just a poorly animated figure thrusting.
Even if there was animated penetration, it still wouldn't be really really real in real reality. It would still be just a porn cartoon. That's not the point.

The point is that some people -- in this case, this virtual rapist -- do things in games that make it impossible for others to enjoy the game. This is against the rules of every game that I have ever read. So this person should be banned from SL, even to the extent of having their IP banned or whatever other technique Linden Labs uses to make sure a banned player doesn't get back on.

Beyond that, the point is, is the emotional distress caused by this kind of behavior real, something to take seriously. I say it is, and I say gamers and game developers should keep this kind of thing in mind. You can't keep everyone happy because you can't predict how a person will react even to normal game behavior, but you can arrange things so as not to encourage hostility and bullying in the game.

As for the question of whether this is or should be a police matter -- the article and the legal analysis that I read make clear that it is not known what kind of case the Belgian police are thinking of building. An actual rape case would be a stretch, but a pornography-related case is an entirely different matter.

Oh, and by the way, I've been in situations -- in extremely crowded subway trains -- in which I could not escape some guy "just" "thrusting" against me. Even when I ground my purse or umbrella into their balls, there was no place for the pervs to go, so they had to stand there take the pain, the way a less aggressive woman might have had to stand there and take the humiliation. There is no "just" about it. Even though I was not raped, the intent was to use me for sex whether I liked it or not. The intent is what defines the act. The player who has his avatar sexually assault another avatar is expressing contempt, hostility and menace against the other player.

Okay, this is a game, right? I don't even know where to start. I don't believe in blaming the victim, but I also don't understand "cyberbullying" either

Yes, it's a game. A lot of the posters here have the right idea. If you don't like what is happening, log off. Second Life has the option to mute players...so if you have decided you don't want to deal with someone, you mute them.

HOWEVER...like in any "abusive (for lack of a better term) relationship" this guy says all the "right" things. Makes promises to her, makes declarations of love (not necessarily unheard of) etc. I just happen to know that he does this to many other women too. Someone with low self esteem, or a crappy real life is a prime target for someone like this. She is getting an ego boost every time he tells her he can't live without her, that she is the reason that the club is running, that she is the light of his life. None of those things are true, or even all that relevant in the grand scheme of things, but someone who feels crappy, that lift feels good. For this girl, it happens to be virtual...but the same thing happens in real life.

To clarify my earlier post, the designers of Second Life didn't "design" the game to make sex play the only way of life for female avatars. However...it's out there. I was standing in a "store" and someone came up to me and said "do you want to have sex...I'll pay" Basically, there is a belief that every female avatar will cyber for money. For those that want to, there is a great profit in it.

I think, what many people forget, is that there are people behind every avatar. It isn't like in Sims, where your characters have poorly pixelated sex, but they are just 2 pictures on a screen, no human feeling. In Second Life, you add the human feeling, and thats where things get ugly.

That's what the green arrow is for. And the whole thing had nothing to do with it, which is why I snipped it.
Shallow and dismissive. At least you're consistent. And thanks for ignoring the part where I told you I wasn't addressing your point but making one of my own that was merely suggested to me by what you said. This whole thread isn't revolving around your point alone, you know.

<snip>

To clarify my earlier post, the designers of Second Life didn't "design" the game to make sex play the only way of life for female avatars. However...it's out there. I was standing in a "store" and someone came up to me and said "do you want to have sex...I'll pay" Basically, there is a belief that every female avatar will cyber for money. For those that want to, there is a great profit in it.

<snip>

Thanks for the clarification, because I was wondering how they could get away with such a thing.

In the RPG I play, there was a guy who went around propositioning female avatars, even though this game doesn' t have a sex option (or if it does it is WAY hidden). He tried it with me in private messaging, and it went like this:

Him: You're hot.

Me: Lol, I'm simulated.

Him: Nice tits.

Me: Do that again and I'll abuse report you. [the system for reporting rule breaking]

Him: Sorry. [and he left]

A few days later, I saw the same guy getting yelled at in a public channel, thusly: "<PlayerName>, I'm <FemalePlayerName]'s husband. I'm going to ask you really politely, just once, to stop following my wife around. Got it? Good."

Shortly afterwards, that guy vanished from the game. He was probably banned. But who knows? Maybe he got some action from other players before he got kicked.

The point is that some people -- in this case, this virtual rapist -- do things in games that make it impossible for others to enjoy the game. This is against the rules of every game that I have ever read. So this person should be banned from SL, even to the extent of having their IP banned or whatever other technique Linden Labs uses to make sure a banned player doesn't get back on.


I don't think you understand. There is no way for people to know that the person doesn't want to engage in sex acts, since the person has the option that declares that they want to engage in sex acts on.

Let me say it again, so you can hopefully get it. THEY ARE NOT ATTEMPTING TO RAPE ANYONE.

Shallow and dismissive. At least you're consistent. And thanks for ignoring the part where I told you I wasn't addressing your point but making one of my own that was merely suggested to me by what you said. This whole thread isn't revolving around your point alone, you know.
So you wern't addressing my point, just making a point based on what I said. :rolleyes:

At worst, you were addressing my point. At best, you were misconstruing the point I was making to have people agree with you.

So you wern't addressing my point, just making a point based on what I said. :rolleyes:

At worst, you were addressing my point. At best, you were misconstruing the point I was making to have people agree with you.
Ok, let me try this again. An Example:

You say, "I like red because it's a pretty color."

I say, "What he said about the color red reminds me of this red thing I saw..."

Now, am I addressing your statement? Or am I using your statement as a springboard for a different and independent statement?

So, see, I first commented (negatively) on the quality of your original response to that other guy whose name I've forgotten (apology to him). Then, later, I moved on from that and used your comments as an opening by which to bring in my own points about the matter.

But no matter how I used your posts for my own convenience, I'm still not talking about your points. You've made your points. There is nothing that I can add to them. I am making my own points. If you want to attack them, go for it, but I am not interested in continuting to argue about whether I was talking about you or not.

Here we go. Took a lil searching, but here's the n00b (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip171.html) spelling it out.

I don't think you understand. There is no way for people to know that the person doesn't want to engage in sex acts, since the person has the option that declares that they want to engage in sex acts on.

Let me say it again, so you can hopefully get it. THEY ARE NOT ATTEMPTING TO RAPE ANYONE.
OK, I understand, but is there no such thing as asking before hopping on in SL? I mean, I might see someone has left their front door open, but I don't take that as an automatic invitation for me to walk into their house. I might see people in the RPG I play engaging in a conversation in the local chat channel which is publicly viewable, but I don't assume that I can just join right in without asking them first.

This is a role-play game, right? It's not a high-score arcade style game. So it should have at least a little realism. And in reality, being ready for sex does not mean that one is ready for sex with any old person who wanders along. It's possible even for prostitutes to get raped. Hence the advisability of asking first. A player who left the sex-now mode on may simply not have realized that she did that, or that that would be taken as an invitation for an instant pile-on.

Here we go. Took a lil searching, but here's the n00b (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip171.html) spelling it out.

Nice. :D

It's still a character, the end.

Legally and morally, yes. But people have a tendency to get attached to their creations...

It's all about the words used. Someone at work can sexually harass a person by the sexual statements they make. In the same way, someone can probably feel raped (or at least sexually harassed) by the words someone uses on a chat room.

OK, I understand, but is there no such thing as asking before hopping on in SL?
No. The entire thing is centered around cyber-sex. That's the purpose.

If someone feels raped in a game, they really need to stay off the internet.

It's all about the words used. Someone at work can sexually harass a person by the sexual statements they make. In the same way, someone can probably feel raped (or at least sexually harassed) by the words someone uses on a chat room.

That makes sense. However, the government shouldn't take a criminal stance on it for two reasons.

1) Impracticality
2) Take it to its logical end and see the fun of an entirely PC world.

Wanna know what would be funny? If the belgian police started patrolling SL, with police uniform avatars, tracking these guys down and harassing them relentlessly.

Wanna know what would be funny? If the belgian police started patrolling SL, with police uniform avatars, tracking these guys down and harassing them relentlessly.

I'd vote for LAPD so they'd beat the sh*t out of people.

Online "rape" is not rape. Just a very tasteless and intrusive form of harassment and stalking. At least not until someone develops virtual suits or sensors.

On the other hand, dismissing or insulting the actual emotional harm these harassments and stalkings can have on people reminds me of how military officers dismissed PTSD as "cowardice" and treated outbreaks as such.

On the other hand, dismissing or insulting the actual emotional harm these harassments and stalkings can have on people reminds me of how military officers dismissed PTSD as "cowardice" and treated outbreaks as such.
Again we are equating a virtual occurrence with a real occurrence, or rather something caused by a real occurrence. So PTSD caused by exposure to combat is comparable to emotional stress caused by your digital character being "raped"? Bullshit. That is the kind of obsessive bs that causes game related deaths in South Korea. Whether PKed or "raped," at the end of the day nothing physically happened to you or anyone else.

Again we are equating a virtual occurrence with a real occurrence, or rather something caused by a real occurrence. So PTSD caused by exposure to combat is comparable to emotional stress caused by your digital character being "raped"? Bullshit. That is the kind of obsessive bs that causes game related deaths in South Korea. Whether PKed or "raped," at the end of the day nothing physically happened to you or anyone else.

Uh, no. Thanks for reading between the lines. What I said was that harassment in any form can inflict real emotional damage. Where did I say "Cyberrape=Real Rape?"

Harassment can kill. Since you bring up Asia, you might have heard the odd news stories about kids being bullied constantly to the point where they committed suicide. In America, constant bullying leads to school shootings.

Your mindset is "Sticks and Stones may break my bones but words never hurt me." In the information age, words are a lot more dangerous now.

:rolleyes:

Uh, no. Thanks for reading between the lines. What I said was that harassment in any form can inflict real emotional damage. Where did I say "Cyberrape=Real Rape?"

Except this isn't harrassment. You seem to be under the impression that people are forcing others' avatars to engage in sex acts. That is not happening. What is happening is that some people, after toggling on the option that allows them to be valid targets of sex, aren't toggling them off when finished. So, people see that said character is displayed as someone who wants to engage in animated sex acts, and then click on the button, and their character walks up to the target and thrusts. No actual animated sex of any kind occurs unless the target responds in the affirmative.

Your mindset is "Sticks and Stones may break my bones but words never hurt me." In the information age, words are a lot more dangerous now.

:rolleyes:

Carlos Mencia has proven that words alone have no power. It's the 'victim' who gives it power.

Uh, no. Thanks for reading between the lines. What I said was that harassment in any form can inflict real emotional damage. Where did I say "Cyberrape=Real Rape?"
Wow, you are misconstruing your own post. You compared the emotional stress of virtual "rape" to PTSD. Ridiculous. At the end of the day, everyone goes home unharmed. If you are so emotionally vested in a digital character that something other than its utter destruction upsets disturbs you, you should (a) not be using the internet and (b) should be in therapy.

Harassment can kill. Since you bring up Asia, you might have heard the odd news stories about kids being bullied constantly to the point where they committed suicide. In America, constant bullying leads to school shootings.
Which has what to do with the obsession with video games? There are things that lead to suicide as well as the case where a child died of neglect because its parents were too into a game.


Your mindset is "Sticks and Stones may break my bones but words never hurt me." In the information age, words are a lot more dangerous now.

How? How are words any more dangerous now than they were? I consider words far more dangerous when said to your face.

Cyberbullying is bullshit too. Cyberbullying is harassment but literally ignorable. You can't literally stop some one from coming up and picking on you but you can stop cyberbullying one way or another. Anything that comes to you by a digital means can be stopped, period.

Except this isn't harrassment. You seem to be under the impression that people are forcing others' avatars to engage in sex acts. That is not happening. What is happening is that some people, after toggling on the option that allows them to be valid targets of sex, aren't toggling them off when finished. So, people see that said character is displayed as someone who wants to engage in animated sex acts, and then click on the button, and their character walks up to the target and thrusts. No actual animated sex of any kind occurs unless the target responds in the affirmative.

I was. Thanks for the information. In this case, sounds to me like Second Life ought to take the Moron-Friendly approach and stick all sorts of bright flashing signs and confirmation buttons to the Sex Option.

Wow, you are misconstruing your own post. You compared the emotional stress of virtual "rape" to PTSD. Ridiculous. At the end of the day, everyone goes home unharmed. If you are so emotionally vested in a digital character that something other than its utter destruction upsets disturbs you, you should (a) not be using the internet and (b) should be in therapy.

And your argument there boils down to a dismissive "Don't be such a pussy."

How? How are words any more dangerous now than they were? I consider words far more dangerous when said to your face.

In the age of the Internet, where disinformation campaigns and leaks can do considerable damage?

Cyberbullying is bullshit too. Cyberbullying is harassment but literally ignorable. You can't literally stop some one from coming up and picking on you but you can stop cyberbullying one way or another. Anything that comes to you by a digital means can be stopped, period.

Again, while turning off the computer will stop the bullying from hitting you directly, it'll still spread to everyone else in your vicinity and maybe even further as part of the harassment campaign. An ostrich with its head in the sand is still going to get picked off.

Can't tell me gossips and rumors never hurt people.

And your argument there boils down to a dismissive "Don't be such a pussy."
Your argument is a virtual "assault" on your character that you didn't condone is equatable to a stress disorder caused by witnessing of traumatic events or being the victim of a traumatic event. I think I have the upper hand in this argument.

In the age of the Internet, where disinformation campaigns and leaks can do considerable damage?
Which is totally more dangerous than other forms of instant dissemination that have nothing to do with the internet?


Again, while turning off the computer
Who said anything about that?

will stop the bullying from hitting you directly,
I wasn't aware computers were involved in actual bullying or that cyberbullying involved physical attacks.


Can't tell me gossips and rumors never hurt people.
As much as you let them.

I think the EVE way of solving unwanted violence works - arm yourself! Fight back! For instance, a few weeks ago, my ship - an expensive interceptor - was destroyed by a corporation who was at war with my alliance. I was pissed.

Unfortunately for them, we had a combat-ready gang already going. Ten minutes later, after I grabbed my cheaper but tougher cruiser, we exacted retribution, taking down two battlecruisers.

If bullies are cowards, as people say, then standing up to them should work.

I think the EVE way of solving unwanted violence works - arm yourself! Fight back! For instance, a few weeks ago, my ship - an expensive interceptor - was destroyed by a corporation who was at war with my alliance. I was pissed.

Unfortunately for them, we had a combat-ready gang already going. Ten minutes later, after I grabbed my cheaper but tougher cruiser, we exacted retribution, taking down two battlecruisers.

If bullies are cowards, as people say, then standing up to them should work.

From what I know, Second Life isn't a conventional MMORPG so the shit-stomping approach won't work.

OK, so back to the idea to forge a portal between MMOs, then use orbital bombardment to eliminate EVE's competitors.

Your argument is a virtual "assault" on your character that you didn't condone is equatable to a stress disorder caused by witnessing of traumatic events or being the victim of a traumatic event. I think I have the upper hand in this argument.

I didn't have the notion comparing the harassment to PTSD in mind. I was saying that the dismissive and contemptuous attitudes shared by skeptics of both problems struck me as being similar. Sorry if it sounded like I implied such.

Which is totally more dangerous than other forms of instant dissemination that have nothing to do with the internet?



Who said anything about that?


I wasn't aware computers were involved in actual bullying or that cyberbullying involved physical attacks.


As much as you let them.

It's especially damaging to social outcasts with few or no friends to turn to. Just because you can ignore the insults, threats and rumors doesn't mean other people will. If any extrapolation or umbrage from grade school can be taken, it would be that people enjoy a chance to single out someone and join in on the persecution guilt-free. It can and has gone national in history too, from the persecution of Jews, Native Americans, Germans, Japanese, Communists, Socialists, so on and so forth up to Muslims today. The Inquisition and Salem Witch Trials are just more instances of mob mentality going on outcast hunts.

Humanity enjoys picking on outcasts and cyberbullying is just an electronic and faster means of letting a lot more people know about them.

After reading that article I followed the links to this one:

http://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/bungle.html

Which is an entertaining if a bit melodramatic narrative of an incident that took pace on one of the old MUDs where there was a guy emoting forcible sex acts on people's avatars.

As I considered this article I couldn't help but get the impression that a big component of why peoiple are as emotionally impacted by something like this is because on some level they're way too emotionally involved in the toon. When you approach an avatar as if it IS you, then naturally anything that happens to it will have some kind of emotional impact.

This is not a healthy thing. I think incidents like this expose a growing problem where people disassociate themselves too much from reality and become too integrated with their online persona.

There are just so many safeguards to prevent or stop harassment online. There are ignore features, mods, privacy controls and if worse comes to worst, the power button. Should an innocent player HAVE to turn off their computer just because some jerk acts a fool? Well, no... But there are a million things we all do every day that we shouldn't HAVE to do but the fact that not everybody plays by the same rules means we do. I shouldn't HAVE to lock my car when I leave it. I shouldn't HAVE to keep the phone number for the police handy in case someone assaults me. I shouldn't HAVE to etc etc etc. Ultimately, some level of self assertino and responsibility has to occur.

I mean, let's take this to its logical conclusion. If it's possible to commit a rape online, one with real world consequences, what does that imply about say, PvP in MMOs? If you play EQ2 and play a Shadowknight, and my Paladin meets you, you're gonna get killed. Have I comitted murder? What if, after the fight is over, I do the Halo crouch over your corpse, (which I'd never do because I find it distasteful) have I raped you? What if my Swashbuckler pickpockets you? Shall I now be charged with a misdemeanor petty theft?

Ridiculous? Sure it is, but then a lot of us would have said that about this whole issue not so long ago.

In the article I linked above, the author offers the argument-counter argument scenario in which he feels that using the ignore feature available in most of these games isn't enough, because it doesn't actually stop the jerk from doing his emotes. It only means the victim doesn't see it. This is equated to a woman who is passed out at a party and is fondled. Just because she doesn't know it happened doesn't mean it didn't.

To me, that argument is another indicator that people are having too much trouble separating themselves from their avatar. If someone fondles you while you're unconscious, you've still been violated. Your body has been touched without your consent. On the other hand, in an online environment, nothing CAN be violated because no body exists. If you don't see it, there can't be an emotional impact, and your physical body is perfectly safe, sitting in front of the computer.

As I considered this article I couldn't help but get the impression that a big component of why peoiple are as emotionally impacted by something like this is because on some level they're way too emotionally involved in the toon. When you approach an avatar as if it IS you, then naturally anything that happens to it will have some kind of emotional impact.

I disagree strongly.

I've been the target of "virtual violence" and sexual threats, both in games and in forums/chats, and the impact of this kind of crap has nothing to do with how invested you are in your toon or avatar.

It's fucking scary as hell to have somebody graphically describe how they want to rape you. Particularly if you have ever been the target of sexual violence (which, remember, ONE IN THREE WOMEN will be).

It's just another reminder that I am not allowed to be female in this world. For the high crime of being a woman, I am marked for violence, rape, and abuse. By admitting I am female, I invite threats, harassment, and cyber stalking.

I have a choice. I can pretend to be male, to reduce the bullshit I have to put up with, or I can admit I am female and be told that I need to "toughen up" or "get over it." If I dare to complain about the abuse I receive, people will brush my concerns aside and tell me that it's no big deal and it's not real anyway and why don't I just go do something else.

Bullshit.

I'm tough enough that I'm not going to be silenced by all the people who want to pretend that graphic rape threats are no big deal. I'm not going to quietly endure harassment because some people (most of whom will never face any such harassment themselves) think it's no big deal.

People who trivialize and marginalize these problems are as big a problem as the harassers themselves.

I think the EVE way of solving unwanted violence works - arm yourself! Fight back! For instance, a few weeks ago, my ship - an expensive interceptor - was destroyed by a corporation who was at war with my alliance. I was pissed.

Unfortunately for them, we had a combat-ready gang already going. Ten minutes later, after I grabbed my cheaper but tougher cruiser, we exacted retribution, taking down two battlecruisers.

If bullies are cowards, as people say, then standing up to them should work.

Heh...you wouldn't happen to be in Invictus...would you? Because I may have been the asshole who got the final shot on your inty, if that's the case.

I disagree strongly.

I've been the target of "virtual violence" and sexual threats, both in games and in forums/chats, and the impact of this kind of crap has nothing to do with how invested you are in your toon or avatar.

It's fucking scary as hell to have somebody graphically describe how they want to rape you. Particularly if you have ever been the target of sexual violence (which, remember, ONE IN THREE WOMEN will be).

It's just another reminder that I am not allowed to be female in this world. For the high crime of being a woman, I am marked for violence, rape, and abuse. By admitting I am female, I invite threats, harassment, and cyber stalking.

I have a choice. I can pretend to be male, to reduce the bullshit I have to put up with, or I can admit I am female and be told that I need to "toughen up" or "get over it." If I dare to complain about the abuse I receive, people will brush my concerns aside and tell me that it's no big deal and it's not real anyway and why don't I just go do something else.

Bullshit.

I'm tough enough that I'm not going to be silenced by all the people who want to pretend that graphic rape threats are no big deal. I'm not going to quietly endure harassment because some people (most of whom will never face any such harassment themselves) think it's no big deal.

People who trivialize and marginalize these problems are as big a problem as the harassers themselves.

I have a couple questions, so that I understand clearly what you're saying so that I don't reply wbout the wrong point.

When somebodty threatened you, were they threatening the real life you, or was it supposed to be in character? (Just curious)

Why not /ignore them?

Did you report it to the devs/mods/admins?

Not trying to ask leading questions, just those items weren't clear in your post and I was wondering.

I have a couple questions, so that I understand clearly what you're saying so that I don't reply wbout the wrong point.

When somebodty threatened you, were they threatening the real life you, or was it supposed to be in character? (Just curious)

I've experienced both.

When it comes to "in character" threats, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and a lot more leeway. After all, I allow in-game characters to threaten to gut me! :P

The thing is, I've never had a serious rape threat from an in-game character that didn't turn out to be a pretty out-of-character issue. Basically, in-game rapist-types use their character as a shield, so they can go around engaging in harassment but then hide behind their character when somebody calls them out on it. They're not actually role-playing at all. They're acting out exactly what they really want to do, and then using role-playing to hide whenever they get caught.

Think about it this way: if you're RPing with somebody who's saying they want to gut you, it can be funny or dramatic or fun...but if you start feeling that they seriously, really and truly, want to murder you in painful ways, it stops being fun. Then it's just fucking creepy.


Why not /ignore them?

I do. I also report them. If they were odious enough, I enlist the aid of friends so we can combine forces to make the perp's life completely miserable. :D


Did you report it to the devs/mods/admins?

Yes, though the responses are often pretty weak. I've had a dev tell me that having somebody send me a macro'ed wall of text with a detailed fantasy about raping me with a sword "does not constitute harassment according to the terms of service." Even though this person sent me the same wall of text using three different alts.


Not trying to ask leading questions, just those items weren't clear in your post and I was wondering.
No prob.

I honestly think a lot of people who brush aside these experiences are simply unaware of what goes on. That's totally understandable.

I don't know what it feels like to be routinely harassed because of, say, my race. I don't have the kind of direct experience with racism that other people have, because I'm not a member of the demographic that is most often targeted for racist harassment in my society. It would be easy for me to feel that racism isn't a big deal, because I simply don't see it in my daily life.

I know a lot of very nice, very well-meaning guys who have been completely shocked to hear about the harassment I've encountered. They simply don't encounter it. I even know girls who are shocked by it, but most of them are girls who don't admit to being girls online. I don't blame them...most of the time, I do the same thing. In most games or forums, I don't "come out" as female until I've gotten my bearings and I feel solid enough to deal with the harassment that I know will start the moment I admit I'm a girl.

Most of the harassment incidents, by themselves, are minor. By themselves, they'd be nothing. I'd brush them off. But the sheer volume is what gets you. Pile up enough of those "minor" insults, and it gets pretty heavy.

And then you can get some of the really sick fuckers who decide to put a lot of time and energy into ruining your day. They know exactly what they are doing when they send you their graphic rape/murder fantasy. They know EXACTLY what reaction it will get. They WANT to scare the crap out of you. They want to make your skin crawl. They want you to feel violated. That's the whole point. Don't waste time pretending it's anything else. It's not "role playing." It's their way of acting out exactly what they really want to do, but while leaving themselves an easy escape so they can't be held accountable.

Bottle,

I play a game called Eve Online, and in game, all scamming, violence, etc., is considered part of the game. All violence is non-consensual - you aren't safe anywhere in the game as your character - anyone who wants to take the risk of being attacked by what passes for police in the game can attack you.

It's in the EULA. You agree to these risks when you play.

As for threats to you personally, outside of the game, those are EULA violations, and all you have to do is report them to the mods.

They have logs of all in game activity and conversations.

I've experienced both.

When it comes to "in character" threats, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and a lot more leeway. After all, I allow in-game characters to threaten to gut me! :P

The thing is, I've never had a serious rape threat from an in-game character that didn't turn out to be a pretty out-of-character issue. Basically, in-game rapist-types use their character as a shield, so they can go around engaging in harassment but then hide behind their character when somebody calls them out on it. They're not actually role-playing at all. They're acting out exactly what they really want to do, and then using role-playing to hide whenever they get caught.

Think about it this way: if you're RPing with somebody who's saying they want to gut you, it can be funny or dramatic or fun...but if you start feeling that they seriously, really and truly, want to murder you in painful ways, it stops being fun. Then it's just fucking creepy.


Even though I haven't experienced that, I absolutely agree with you. If you get a chance to read the link I posted, essentially what wound up happening to the harasser is he got his account deleted. I think that's completely apropriate. That's especially true in an MMO environment where there are often youngsters playing. My kids play EQ2 with me and the idea that someone might send that sort of text to them makes me glad Sony is pretty good about responding to those kinds of complaints.

And frankly, when it comes to harassing text I wouldn't have a problem with a person's account getting nixed whether the threats were IC or OOC, but clearly if the intent is to threaten OOC then it becomes a real-life issue. I think in the OP and in the example in the link, the event was entirely within the realm of In-Character. Disgusting, but handleable within the context of the game.


I do. I also report them. If they were odious enough, I enlist the aid of friends so we can combine forces to make the perp's life completely miserable. :D

Hehe bravo!


Yes, though the responses are often pretty weak. I've had a dev tell me that having somebody send me a macro'ed wall of text with a detailed fantasy about raping me with a sword "does not constitute harassment according to the terms of service." Even though this person sent me the same wall of text using three different alts.


See, that's a failure on the part of the devs. Whether the harasser meant that IC or OOC (let's assume he meant it IC) then using different alts was obviously an attempt to circumvent the /ignore feature. That's a perfect case for a banned account. Sounds like they ought to revisit their TOS.


No prob.

I honestly think a lot of people who brush aside these experiences are simply unaware of what goes on. That's totally understandable.

I don't know what it feels like to be routinely harassed because of, say, my race. I don't have the kind of direct experience with racism that other people have, because I'm not a member of the demographic that is most often targeted for racist harassment in my society. It would be easy for me to feel that racism isn't a big deal, because I simply don't see it in my daily life.

I know a lot of very nice, very well-meaning guys who have been completely shocked to hear about the harassment I've encountered. They simply don't encounter it. I even know girls who are shocked by it, but most of them are girls who don't admit to being girls online. I don't blame them...most of the time, I do the same thing. In most games or forums, I don't "come out" as female until I've gotten my bearings and I feel solid enough to deal with the harassment that I know will start the moment I admit I'm a girl.

Most of the harassment incidents, by themselves, are minor. By themselves, they'd be nothing. I'd brush them off. But the sheer volume is what gets you. Pile up enough of those "minor" insults, and it gets pretty heavy.

And then you can get some of the really sick fuckers who decide to put a lot of time and energy into ruining your day. They know exactly what they are doing when they send you their graphic rape/murder fantasy. They know EXACTLY what reaction it will get. They WANT to scare the crap out of you. They want to make your skin crawl. They want you to feel violated. That's the whole point. Don't waste time pretending it's anything else. It's not "role playing." It's their way of acting out exactly what they really want to do, but while leaving themselves an easy escape so they can't be held accountable.

I've seen enough garbage in the context of chatroom roleplay to be very difficult to shock.

A few years ago, I remember there was a big discussion about this sort of thing and precisely because, as a male, I hadn't been directly exposed to it, I decided to create a female avatar and just sit there and see what happened. Some of the solicitations for cybering I got ranged from mundane to creepy as hell. One guy wanted to live out a fantasy IC where he was killed by the female and slowly cooked and eaten. Another few pretended to have software thet tracked a screename to its address and were threatening to come after the felame they believed was behind the keyboard. Still others would just constantly spam either for cyber or for a phone number.

I concluded my experiment with a much better perspective on the subject. Of course, there was no moderation in the environment I was just describing but there were features to block and ignore, and while I never bothered since it was just for the experiement, I can see they'd be a very valuable feature to have.

My wife can tell similar stories since she used to spend a lot of time RPing in that environment. (It's how we met, actually.) Her stories make mine look boring by comparison, since obviously she was at it a lot longer than the length of my experiment.

Ultimately, if you ask her she'll tell you the best defense against this nonsense is the off button. Or, if it exists, the /ignore or block. When she plays EQ2 she takes crap from *nobody*. When she leads a group, she WILL kick people out of it for crouching over enemy corpses or crouching party members. (In EQ2 crouching brings the face right to crotch level for many races and people sometimes do it to female toons.) And this without immersing herself emotionally into her characters.

Bottle,

I play a game called Eve Online, and in game, all scamming, violence, etc., is considered part of the game. All violence is non-consensual - you aren't safe anywhere in the game as your character - anyone who wants to take the risk of being attacked by what passes for police in the game can attack you.

I choose not to play games where scamming and harassment are considered "part of the game."

What bugs me is the number of times that I've been in a game with a TOS that CLEARLY prohibits the kind of harassment I'm receiving...but the devs/admins refuse to do anything about it when I report.


It's in the EULA. You agree to these risks when you play.

That's why I don't play those. Anybody who intentionally creates a safe space for criminals* and rapists is somebody who won't be getting my money.

*By criminals, I am referring to scammers and hackers.


As for threats to you personally, outside of the game, those are EULA violations, and all you have to do is report them to the mods.

They have logs of all in game activity and conversations.
In my experience, "virtual rapes" are treated with even more disregard than real-life rapes, and that's really saying something.

Devs and admins are overwhelmingly likely to be male. No surprise, then, that a lot of them don't give two shits when girl gamers are abused and harassed. Many of them openly admit that they resent having girls in their clubhouse in the first place. I've been told that it was my fault for inviting harassment because I identified as female. That's it. That's what it takes for them to conclude that I "consented" to be harassed.

My wife can tell similar stories since she used to spend a lot of time RPing in that environment. (It's how we met, actually.)

Awww, thats cute. RP'ers in love.

I choose not to play games where scamming and harassment are considered "part of the game."

What bugs me is the number of times that I've been in a game with a TOS that CLEARLY prohibits the kind of harassment I'm receiving...but the devs/admins refuse to do anything about it when I report.


That's why I don't play those. Anybody who intentionally creates a safe space for criminals* and rapists is somebody who won't be getting my money.

*By criminals, I am referring to scammers and hackers.


In my experience, "virtual rapes" are treated with even more disregard than real-life rapes, and that's really saying something.

Devs and admins are overwhelmingly likely to be male. No surprise, then, that a lot of them don't give two shits when girl gamers are abused and harassed. Many of them openly admit that they resent having girls in their clubhouse in the first place. I've been told that it was my fault for inviting harassment because I identified as female. That's it. That's what it takes for them to conclude that I "consented" to be harassed.

Kinda hard to be "raped" in Eve Online.

On the other hand, having your ship blown up out from under you, and then when you eject from the ship, having them open fire on your escape pod and blowing you up personally is part of the game.

Unlike World of Warcraft, and similar games, there are no safe havens in the game. There are only degrees of "safe".

Unlike other MMOGs, it isn't a "grinding" game. You take risks every time you get in your ship.

The game atmosphere is far more exciting because of the level of risk.

There are contracts in game - and it's buyer beware. It's a game where you had better make some friends and allies - and quickly - and where making enemies can be persistently fatal.

Bottle,

I play a game called Eve Online, and in game, all scamming, violence, etc., is considered part of the game. All violence is non-consensual - you aren't safe anywhere in the game as your character - anyone who wants to take the risk of being attacked by what passes for police in the game can attack you.

It's in the EULA. You agree to these risks when you play.

As for threats to you personally, outside of the game, those are EULA violations, and all you have to do is report them to the mods.

They have logs of all in game activity and conversations.

Nice. What corp?

I've never been on the giving or receiving end of any of these kinds of threats or situations. Matter of fact I can't remember anyone ever even cybering, even on the MUDs I've played.

But if this really does happen, even an "in character" avatar who is an asshole should have some line he can't cross when it comes to non-consensual player interaction.

I had another thought about this...

Rape is about power. It's about the power the rapist has over the victim. In a rape, there's no escape for the victim. There's fear of death on top of everything else. That's what makes it so heinous.

Online, a rapist has nothing like that level of power. In fact, with features like /ignore and blocking the potential victim can block the attack instantly. I can't imagine it's much fun for the harasser if he knows he's been blocked and his intended victim can't see what he's doing anymore. With the support of other players, devs or mods there are ways to deal with such fools.

I think that's an important distinction.

Awww, thats cute. RP'ers in love.

Hehe

And the reality is vastly better than anything that went on in chat. :)

Even though I haven't experienced that, I absolutely agree with you. If you get a chance to read the link I posted, essentially what wound up happening to the harasser is he got his account deleted. I think that's completely apropriate. That's especially true in an MMO environment where there are often youngsters playing. My kids play EQ2 with me and the idea that someone might send that sort of text to them makes me glad Sony is pretty good about responding to those kinds of complaints.

And frankly, when it comes to harassing text I wouldn't have a problem with a person's account getting nixed whether the threats were IC or OOC, but clearly if the intent is to threaten OOC then it becomes a real-life issue. I think in the OP and in the example in the link, the event was entirely within the realm of In-Character. Disgusting, but handleable within the context of the game.

I agree with you on this.


See, that's a failure on the part of the devs. Whether the harasser meant that IC or OOC (let's assume he meant it IC) then using different alts was obviously an attempt to circumvent the /ignore feature. That's a perfect case for a banned account. Sounds like they ought to revisit their TOS.

Yeah, enforcement of rules quite often depends upon which dev you happen to get attention from. Some of them are awesome. Some suck at life.


I've seen enough garbage in the context of chatroom roleplay to be very difficult to shock.

[snip for length]

Ultimately, if you ask her she'll tell you the best defense against this nonsense is the off button. Or, if it exists, the /ignore or block. When she plays EQ2 she takes crap from *nobody*. When she leads a group, she WILL kick people out of it for crouching over enemy corpses or crouching party members. (In EQ2 crouching brings the face right to crotch level for many races and people sometimes do it to female toons.) And this without immersing herself emotionally into her characters.
Sounds like we're on the same page.

I'm particularly hard-ass about crap like this because I tend to like playing support characters in most games. Why does this matter? Well, I usually end up playing the classes that are in very high demand. (Example: I play healers and tanks in WoW.) This means that my team NEEDS me. If I leave team, they're going to get to sit around for 2 hours trying to replace me. So I am comfortable being a little tyrant when it comes to harassing or BS behavior in my teams.

Want to call everything "gay" and everybody a "fag"? I'm not healing you if you do that. Want to keep harassing me and hitting on me long after I've gently told you to chill out and stop it? Enjoy tanking those five mobs you just pulled. I know I enjoy watching it. ;)

The funny thing is, I'm all about dirty jokes and graphic language. I give people a TON of space when it comes to that stuff. But there is a big difference between fun joking around and hostile, sexist, vile bullshit. And if somebody wants to start with that shit, I'll be happy to ruin their day. :D

Hehe

And the reality is vastly better than anything that went on in chat. :)

You have never cyberred properly then.

Well, I haven't cyberred but thats besides the point.

Nice. What corp?

I've never been on the giving or receiving end of any of these kinds of threats or situations. Matter of fact I can't remember anyone ever even cybering, even on the MUDs I've played.

But if this really does happen, even an "in character" avatar who is an asshole should have some line he can't cross when it comes to non-consensual player interaction.

Galactic Defense Consortium.

Simple example:

I'm hauling in my cargo ship. I'm in high security space (safer). But anyone willing to take the risk can blow my ship up (even though they will be blown up by the CONCORD enforcement in return). His friends can then loot my wreck.

In lower security space, if I'm just coming out of a jumpgate, there might be people waiting there to blow me up and loot my wreck. And for added fun, they'll shoot my escape pod (maybe after I refuse to pay a ransom).

It can be personal - often, it is not. They're just making money through piracy.

You don't have to be a pirate in Eve - but there are many pirates.

Kinda hard to be "raped" in Eve Online.

On the other hand, having your ship blown up out from under you, and then when you eject from the ship, having them open fire on your escape pod and blowing you up personally is part of the game.

Unlike World of Warcraft, and similar games, there are no safe havens in the game. There are only degrees of "safe".

Unlike other MMOGs, it isn't a "grinding" game. You take risks every time you get in your ship.

The game atmosphere is far more exciting because of the level of risk.

There are contracts in game - and it's buyer beware. It's a game where you had better make some friends and allies - and quickly - and where making enemies can be persistently fatal.

The entire game is basically designed around a "survive or die" mentality. You either make it through a given encounter, or you (occasionally) start from scratch. More often than not you have some measure of protection, designated safe spots, etc. that you can fall back to.

The entire game is basically designed around a "survive or die" mentality. You either make it through a given encounter, or you (occasionally) start from scratch. More often than not you have some measure of protection, designated safe spots, etc. that you can fall back to.

Now that probes work, safe spots are no longer safe, unless the people hunting you are relatively unskilled.

I'm particularly hard-ass about crap like this because I tend to like playing support characters in most games. Why does this matter? Well, I usually end up playing the classes that are in very high demand. (Example: I play healers and tanks in WoW.) This means that my team NEEDS me. If I leave team, they're going to get to sit around for 2 hours trying to replace me. So I am comfortable being a little tyrant when it comes to harassing or BS behavior in my teams.

Want to call everything "gay" and everybody a "fag"? I'm not healing you if you do that. Want to keep harassing me and hitting on me long after I've gently told you to chill out and stop it? Enjoy tanking those five mobs you just pulled. I know I enjoy watching it. ;)

The funny thing is, I'm all about dirty jokes and graphic language. I give people a TON of space when it comes to that stuff. But there is a big difference between fun joking around and hostile, sexist, vile bullshit. And if somebody wants to start with that shit, I'll be happy to ruin their day. :D

That sounds remarkably like my wife... She often plays either a Paladin (in EQ2 a Paladin is a tank) or a Mystic (which is one of the healer classes) and she knows how to use that authority much like how you described.

Ironically, I'm the counterpart. Wen she heals, I tank and vice versa. That way we never have trouble getting a group. I usually only threaten when people are playing stupidly though ;)

Awww, thats cute. RP'ers in love.
Tangent: my first introduction to World Of Warcraft was attending an in-game wedding. The players getting married in-game had just returned from their real-life honeymoon. They decided to have a complete in-game wedding and reception for their guild.

I was surprised at how fun it was, mostly because people came up with creative ways to use existing in-game features to flesh out the wedding. Also, seeing a bunch of wacky elves and dwarves and so on "line-dancing" at a wedding reception is funny, no matter who you are.

Galactic Defense Consortium.

Simple example:

I'm hauling in my cargo ship. I'm in high security space (safer). But anyone willing to take the risk can blow my ship up (even though they will be blown up by the CONCORD enforcement in return). His friends can then loot my wreck.

In lower security space, if I'm just coming out of a jumpgate, there might be people waiting there to blow me up and loot my wreck. And for added fun, they'll shoot my escape pod (maybe after I refuse to pay a ransom).

It can be personal - often, it is not. They're just making money through piracy.

You don't have to be a pirate in Eve - but there are many pirates.

In Eve University right now, though I'm considering an offer to switch over to Invictus. They've cut out a fairly large swath of territory near Reisen.

Yeah. I'm glad I've never been gatecamped. But that's the attraction of Eve. In WoW, you can be a dick to people all you want, screw people over on chests, etc.
In Eve, you try that, even if you're ganged, and you're liable to get podded.

Now that probes work, safe spots are no longer safe, unless the people hunting you are relatively unskilled.

That's true. Though the only real pvp piracy I've had to worry about are from the Privateers. And they're at war with practically everybody.

That sounds remarkably like my wife... She often plays either a Paladin (in EQ2 a Paladin is a tank) or a Mystic (which is one of the healer classes) and she knows how to use that authority much like how you described.

Ironically, I'm the counterpart. Wen she heals, I tank and vice versa. That way we never have trouble getting a group. I usually only threaten when people are playing stupidly though ;)
Yeah, my boyfriend and I play together in teams like that a lot.

In most casual teams we only have to worry about play skill. But sometimes you get that one annoying bugger who uses "fag" like a comma, and I just can't take that for two hours of dungeon crawling.

A few nights ago we had a kid like that on a team with us, and he just couldn't seem to stop saying "fag" even after I asked him to knock it off twice. Finally, I stopped healing him entirely. He died during a pull, and went, "WTF?!" I told him, "You've got the FAG debuff on you. It neutralizes all healing effects. Don't worry, it will wear off in five minutes, as long as you don't type the letter F, A, and G in your chat box."

I agree with you on this.


Yeah, enforcement of rules quite often depends upon which dev you happen to get attention from. Some of them are awesome. Some suck at life.


Sounds like we're on the same page.

I'm particularly hard-ass about crap like this because I tend to like playing support characters in most games. Why does this matter? Well, I usually end up playing the classes that are in very high demand. (Example: I play healers and tanks in WoW.) This means that my team NEEDS me. If I leave team, they're going to get to sit around for 2 hours trying to replace me. So I am comfortable being a little tyrant when it comes to harassing or BS behavior in my teams.

Want to call everything "gay" and everybody a "fag"? I'm not healing you if you do that. Want to keep harassing me and hitting on me long after I've gently told you to chill out and stop it? Enjoy tanking those five mobs you just pulled. I know I enjoy watching it. ;)

The funny thing is, I'm all about dirty jokes and graphic language. I give people a TON of space when it comes to that stuff. But there is a big difference between fun joking around and hostile, sexist, vile bullshit. And if somebody wants to start with that shit, I'll be happy to ruin their day. :D

I think NWN had it pretty good in terms of DMs for the most part. Only problem there was a few griefers, looters or favourable DMs (those tended to not be the big modules).

This type of behavior can be disturbing and unsettling, and appropriate in game punishments are perfectly appropriate, including account deletion and IP banning.

To refer to this as rape however severely diminishes the true weight of rape, and completely minimizes the horror that it is.

This is a dick being a dick. It's upsetting, it's unsettling, it's harassing. But it's one hell of a far cry from rape.

This type of behavior can be disturbing and unsettling, and appropriate in game punishments are perfectly appropriate, including account deletion and IP banning.

To refer to this as rape however severely diminishes the true weight of rape, and completely minimizes the horror that it is.

This is a dick being a dick. It's upsetting, it's unsettling, it's harassing. But it's one hell of a far cry from rape.
This is yet another situation where I think we need a new word.

Sexual threats and harassment online are, in my experience, in a class of their own. The viciousness, not to mention the pervasiveness, of this kind of crap is totally unlike the routine annoyances of just generally dealing with online drama.

But you're right, it's not rape. I've seen people call it eRape, or vRape (v for virtual), but I don't know that I like those terms because they are often used too generally and include all sexualized harassment online.

*snip*

Bottle, you make great points. I agree with you about people who "roleplay" rapists. Why would someone want to do that? And, having played female characters in DAoC and WoW, I have been the target of harrassment, and it always pissed me off. I guess I've been lucky with my appeals, they've always seemed to work. But, and this is largely semantic, I still think it is only "harrassment."* Doesn't calling something "virtual rape" take away from the term, in the case of actual rape? Kind of like the word "addiction" getting over-used a lot taking away from true cases of addiction? I don't know, it seems hard to peg my upset-o-meter over typing at a cartoon.

*Just to be clear, I do not think that harrassment is ever "only." I just came out that way in this context.

A few nights ago we had a kid like that on a team with us, and he just couldn't seem to stop saying "fag" even after I asked him to knock it off twice. Finally, I stopped healing him entirely. He died during a pull, and went, "WTF?!" I told him, "You've got the FAG debuff on you. It neutralizes all healing effects. Don't worry, it will wear off in five minutes, as long as you don't type the letter F, A, and G in your chat box."

That's awesome :D

Tangent: my first introduction to World Of Warcraft was attending an in-game wedding. The players getting married in-game had just returned from their real-life honeymoon. They decided to have a complete in-game wedding and reception for their guild.

Now that is sweet

I was surprised at how fun it was, mostly because people came up with creative ways to use existing in-game features to flesh out the wedding. Also, seeing a bunch of wacky elves and dwarves and so on "line-dancing" at a wedding reception is funny, no matter who you are.

Paying a subscription service to get in? Lack of Starcraft 2 (I know that isn't in-game but I might as well bring it up)?

I usually only threaten when people are playing stupidly though ;)

*Ahem* Leeroy Jenkins!

I hate World of Warcraft precisely because there's no risk.

Bottle, you make great points. I agree with you about people who "roleplay" rapists. Why would someone want to do that? And, having played female characters in DAoC and WoW, I have been the target of harrassment, and it always pissed me off. I guess I've been lucky with my appeals, they've always seemed to work. But, and this is largely semantic, I still think it is only "harrassment."* Doesn't calling something "virtual rape" take away from the term, in the case of actual rape? Kind of like the word "addiction" getting over-used a lot taking away from true cases of addiction? I don't know, it seems hard to peg my upset-o-meter over typing at a cartoon.

(Bold mine)

Here's my dilemma:

On the one hand, I agree that it's not a good idea to use "rape" to describe online sexualized bullshit of the sort we are discussing. It's hard enough to get people to take rape seriously, without generalizing that term so much that it loses its meaning.

On the other hand, it's fucking hard to get people to take online "eRape" or whatever it is seriously. Using a word like RAPE gets people's attention, which you often can't seem to get any other way. It's so hard to get through to people that this shit can be really serious. It's hard to convince most male gamers to give a crap about the many, many ways that female gamers are chased away, harassed, marginalized, and excluded through these kinds of behaviors.

It's hard to communicate what it feels like when you have somebody using alts to repeatedly send you their fantasy about shoving blades into your vagina. RAPE is a word that carries the right emotional charge. It communicates the feeling of that experience.

That's not enough reason to use it, of course. But right now I can't think of any word that communicates what needs to be communicated in these situations.

This all comes back to my fundamental belief that most people are good people. I believe that if you can just get them to empathize with you, to see how you feel about something, then they will be understanding and respectful and take you seriously. That's why I really wish there were a better way to communicate the seriousness of online "rape" issues without actually using the word rape.

This is yet another situation where I think we need a new word.

Sexual threats and harassment online are, in my experience, in a class of their own. The viciousness, not to mention the pervasiveness, of this kind of crap is totally unlike the routine annoyances of just generally dealing with online drama.

But you're right, it's not rape. I've seen people call it eRape, or vRape (v for virtual), but I don't know that I like those terms because they are often used too generally and include all sexualized harassment online.

Role Violation? Intellectual violation?

http://newsletter.vugames.com/bz0306nl01/img/footer_esrb_notice.gif

It's hard to communicate what it feels like when you have somebody using alts to repeatedly send you their fantasy about shoving blades into your vagina. RAPE is a word that carries the right emotional charge. It communicates the feeling of that experience.
It's serial harassment. Not rape. "Rape" carries an emotional charge above and beyond what is happening.

If RP'ers are so obsessed as that they can be raped in a text-only game, they should be mentally examined. I don't care what the rest of the article says, this is absurd. Are we now going to go around having police investigate the crime of homicide in games with PvP anywhere and no level rules on it?


A better question is why are police are investigating it.

I want to report a murder!!!! :eek:

I was just out minding my own business, thinking about farming some gold when out of no-where a small group of horde attacked my level 18 gnome. The poor guy did'nt know what hit him...

I think what happened was that they consented to sex, but when they realized that they just cybered with someone that was the same sex as they are, then they cried virtual rape.

Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds.

.....
would that even be rape in real life?

example:
Why did'nt you tell me you were born a man? etc...

i mean this would make a great court case.
"I asked him/her to stop"
"and then what? take your time..."
"he/she just kept typing in...out...in...out"

A few nights ago we had a kid like that on a team with us, and he just couldn't seem to stop saying "fag" even after I asked him to knock it off twice. Finally, I stopped healing him entirely. He died during a pull, and went, "WTF?!" I told him, "You've got the FAG debuff on you. It neutralizes all healing effects. Don't worry, it will wear off in five minutes, as long as you don't type the letter F, A, and G in your chat box."

You win forever.

No. The entire thing is centered around cyber-sex. That's the purpose.
You mean the whole SL game? Really? It's ALL about cyber-sex? Because that's not how it's advertised. You go to their site to sign up, and there is nothing, not one thing about "come here to have cyber sex." There are no age verification pages or disclaimers about content. Nothing. The game is advertised as a place to socialize, do business, experiment with programming, and role play. Not one word about sex. And its press coverage in recent months have been all about how SL is growing in popularity among teens -- I'm talking about minors.

If it's a sex game, fine. Call it "Plato's Retreat Online" and have done already. But then it will be porn. And it should be advertised as a porn site. And it should be restricted as a porn site, too. No letting 15-year-olds sign up as members.

I think you are mistaken. I think that, although cyber-sex is an available activity in Second Life, the entire game is NOT in fact centered around it and it is NOT the purpose of the game.

Because if it is, then SL is most certainly guilty of involving minors in sexual activities, and THAT may be what the Belgian police are investigating. Not whether a rape occurred, but the entire use of sex in this game. Someone mentioned very early in this thread that Belgium has been investigating SL on child porn allegations under their very restrictive laws, so maybe that is what is really going on here.

Everyone in this thread should remember that the OP article and related links make clear that the Belgian police have not said publicy just what they are investigating or what kind of case they are thinking of building, only that it has to do with these rape allegations.

This is bullshit.

You can log out on an online game. You can't log out in the real world.

That's where it's at!

My first reaction to this was "Oh FFS", as I suspect was the case for many others. But it got me to thinking about the nature of experience, and how much of what we perceive is strongly influenced by our own beliefs.

I remember someone saying IRL that road rage is facilitated by the belief that your car is an extension of your body, and so your "personal space" is made extraordinarily large while driving. So yeah, an online avatar is just a bunch of code and no more a part of you than your computer; and on that level the absurdity of it all is plain. But for some people, their inner life could be so dominated by their online experience that it becomes a genuine extension of their person... at least in their own mind.

Well, yeah. If your avatar has become an extension of your person, you could suffer a lot from "online raeping". That's true. But the solution isn't police investigation: THE SOLUTION IS GETTING THE FUCK OUT OF YOUR BASEMENT AND START HAVING A FIRST LIFE, RATHER THAN A SECOND ONE. And, if that doesn't work, get some goddamned therapy and counseling, for pete's sake, level-headed people don't feel raeped over teh interbutt. They get angry, tell the sad attempt of a rapist to GTFO, set them on ignore, and call the mods. Or just, you know, SHUT THE DAMNED PROGRAM OFF AND GO GRAB A SANDWICH, or WHATEVER, not standing there being raeped, as if your body would die without a mind if you pulled the plug... :D

Well, yeah. If your avatar has become an extension of your person, you could suffer a lot from "online raeping". That's true. But the solution isn't police investigation: THE SOLUTION IS GETTING THE FUCK OUT OF YOUR BASEMENT AND START HAVING A FIRST LIFE, RATHER THAN A SECOND ONE. And, if that doesn't work, get some goddamned therapy and counseling, for pete's sake, level-headed people don't feel raeped over teh interbutt. They get angry, tell the sad attempt of a rapist to GTFO, set them on ignore, and call the mods. Or just, you know, SHUT THE DAMNED PROGRAM OFF AND GO GRAB A SANDWICH, or WHATEVER, not standing there being raeped, as if your body would die without a mind if you pulled the plug... :D

Amen.

I hear people complain in the Eve Online forums about how they weren't expecting to be killed the moment they tried to fly somewhere...

The common reply on the forums there is, "Since you're leaving the game, can I have your stuff?"

(Bold mine)

Here's my dilemma:

On the one hand, I agree that it's not a good idea to use "rape" to describe online sexualized bullshit of the sort we are discussing. It's hard enough to get people to take rape seriously, without generalizing that term so much that it loses its meaning.

I think calling it what it is, sexual harassment, is sufficient, and accurate.

It's hard to communicate what it feels like when you have somebody using alts to repeatedly send you their fantasy about shoving blades into your vagina. RAPE is a word that carries the right emotional charge. It communicates the feeling of that experience.

I don't think it does. I don't think that anything anyone can do to you online, anything anyone can say to you, any messages they send your way, any emotes they use around you, nothing they can do online can instill in any reasonable person the same emotional feelings that being raped causes.

I simply don't think that those experiences evoke the same level of emotion. I truly don't think that even at an emotional level, these acts evoke the same emotional response as being raped does.

Take a person who has been raped. Actually, physically, held down and raped.

Then take a person who has been subjected to this sort of behavior.

Do you REALLY want to take the position that the emotional response between the two of them is the same?

Do you really want to tell the first person that the experiences of the second person were equally emotionally scarring? That someone saying suggestive, lude, harrassing, and even downright violent things to you, online, is equally emotionally traumatic as being pinned down and raped?

Seriously?

That's not enough reason to use it, of course. But right now I can't think of any word that communicates what needs to be communicated in these situations.

"sexual harassment" seems to fit fine, as I said.

This all comes back to my fundamental belief that most people are good people.

Do what I do. That'll change.

I hear people complain in the Eve Online forums about how they weren't expecting to be killed the moment they tried to fly somewhere...

I know this dichodemy is really, REALLY hard for you to grasp, but try to keep up.

In Eve, being killed is allowable in the rules. Being sexually harassed is not.

Are you beginning to understand the difference?

What kind of fucked-up douchebag finds it necessary or even funny to virtually rape another person's avatar in a game? I swear, the internet brings out the worst in a lot of people.

When I had a go at playing Call of Duty 3 I saw something that really takes all the fun out of war game/FPS'ers...

A soldier fucking another soldier...who was dead. Really rather put a dampener on things.

(if you stand over someone who just died and do the crouching thing it looks like you're fucking the dead guy))

It's serial harassment. Not rape. "Rape" carries an emotional charge above and beyond what is happening.
In real life, serial harrassment is also a crime and not just because it's annoying. It poisons the life of the victim with fear and humiliation. Although it is not violent, it is still aggressive, hostile, and all about domination by force -- of will, if not phsyical strength.

I am relative lucky. Being a naturally aggressive person, I respond very directly and very openly whenever someone tries to harrass me and so I am able to put a stop to it before my personal life is too much affected. But I have had to deal with it often. And sometimes, the dealing with it had to be extreme and temporarily negative to me. I've quit a job to put an end to sexual harrassment. I've threatened lawsuits to force other employers to enforce their own anti-harrassment policies. And quit those job shortly thereafter. But at least I've never been physically threatened or stalked.

But tell me, why should I have had to give up a job just because some jackass thinks its funny to leave extreme porn pictures all over my work station every single day? Why should I have to fight to get protection under existing rules? And why should I have to leave a game because of harrassment? Why shouldn't the perv be the one who has to leave?

Tell me why I should have to just shrug it off like it's nothing? Why should I have to put up with being insulted at all?

This type of behavior can be disturbing and unsettling, and appropriate in game punishments are perfectly appropriate, including account deletion and IP banning.

To refer to this as rape however severely diminishes the true weight of rape, and completely minimizes the horror that it is.

This is a dick being a dick. It's upsetting, it's unsettling, it's harassing. But it's one hell of a far cry from rape.
I just want to repeat this because it's getting lost in the debate:

WE DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BELGIAN POLICE ARE TRYING TO BUILD A RAPE CASE AGAINST SECOND LIFE.

We know that a player made an allegation and called it rape. We do not know all the circumstances of the incident, and we do not know if Belgian law would even allow for an argument that there is such a thing as cyber rape.

What we do know is that they are "looking into it." That is all.

I just want to repeat this because it's getting lost in the debate:

WE DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BELGIAN POLICE ARE TRYING TO BUILD A RAPE CASE AGAINST SECOND LIFE.

Well, yes, sure. I'll admit that my knowledge of the belgian criminal code is rusty. Whether it constituted "some crime" in belgium is really beyond my legal expertise.

I merely am refering to the idea, in general, whether calling it "rape" is accurate.

In real life, serial harrassment is also a crime and not just because it's annoying. It poisons the life of the victim with fear and humiliation. Although it is not violent, it is still aggressive, hostile, and all about domination by force -- of will, if not phsyical strength.

I am relative lucky. Being a naturally aggressive person, I respond very directly and very openly whenever someone tries to harrass me and so I am able to put a stop to it before my personal life is too much affected. But I have had to deal with it often. And sometimes, the dealing with it had to be extreme and temporarily negative to me. I've quit a job to put an end to sexual harrassment. I've threatened lawsuits to force other employers to enforce their own anti-harrassment policies. And quit those job shortly thereafter. But at least I've never been physically threatened or stalked.

But tell me, why should I have had to give up a job just because some jackass thinks its funny to leave extreme porn pictures all over my work station every single day? Why should I have to fight to get protection under existing rules? And why should I have to leave a game because of harrassment? Why shouldn't the perv be the one who has to leave?

Tell me why I should have to just shrug it off like it's nothing? Why should I have to put up with being insulted at all?

You don't have to put up with it. Although in spirit they're the same, online and IRL harassment are quite different. If you can't get away from your online harasser, you're either:

A) not really trying.
B) not skilled enough in the use of teh interbutt.
C) just spending too much goddamned time online.

I think calling it what it is, sexual harassment, is sufficient, and accurate.

I think "sexual harassment" covers too wide a range of behaviors.

Some sexual harassment is relatively trivial. Other harassment is very, very serious.


I don't think it does. I don't think that anything anyone can do to you online, anything anyone can say to you, any messages they send your way, any emotes they use around you, nothing they can do online can instill in any reasonable person the same emotional feelings that being raped causes.

I guess I'm not a reasonable person, then.

It's only a matter of degrees, with some of these threats. Having somebody stalk me in game, repeatedly sending private messages about raping me or torturing me, that gives me the same kind of willies as if I were getting physical letters or phone calls in real life. The fear that it creates is very solid, to me. And only more so because of my physical, real-life experiences.

It's like it calls up an echo of those original feelings of violation, and then amplifies them by reminding me that I am NEVER ALLOWED TO FEEL SAFE. If I try to be female in public, even in VIRTUAL public, I face this kind of threat. It is so disgusting to know that there are always people who will intentionally fuck with me and terrorize me simply because I am female and I exist. And it's fucking terrifying how many of them there are out there...


I simply don't think that those experiences evoke the same level of emotion. I truly don't think that even at an emotional level, these acts evoke the same emotional response as being raped does.

Absolutely not "the same emotional response." But similar.

It's like comparing the joy I feel at seeing my baby brother during a trip home to the joy I felt the very first time he said my name. They are of different magnitudes, but they're the same "flavor" of feeling.

The feeling I get from being sent graphic sexual threats on line is of the same flavor as the feeling I got from being the victim of sexual violence. It is a different flavor of feeling from what I experience when I face non-sexual harassment in game (like somebody just being a jackass and ninjaing loots or camping my corpse or something).

I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm trying to articulate feelings and that is always a pain in the ass for me.


Take a person who has been raped. Actually, physically, held down and raped.

Then take a person who has been subjected to this sort of behavior.

Do you REALLY want to take the position that the emotional response between the two of them is the same?

No, and I believe my post made it very clear that I don't.


Do you really want to tell the first person that the experiences of the second person were equally emotionally scarring? That someone saying suggestive, lude, harrassing, and even downright violent things to you, online, is equally emotionally traumatic as being pinned down and raped?

Again, I think my post answered these questions very clearly.


"sexual harassment" seems to fit fine, as I said.

I don't agree.

I also think "sexual harassment" doesn't help at all with one of my main goals, which is to get through to people about these incidents. In my experience, exactly ZERO people online give a shit if you are 'sexually harassed.' The term is basically a joke these days.

Seriously, guys and gals here. I get everyone around is pretty much an interbutt nut. Let's envision ourselves as victims of an online raep/harassment.

If we couldn't get away from it, we would be either:

A) Not really trying.
B) Not skilled enough in the use of teh interbutt.
C) Taking teh interbutt a lil too much as "serious bussiness".

I also think "sexual harassment" doesn't help at all with one of my main goals, which is to get through to people about these incidents. In my experience, exactly ZERO people online give a shit if you are 'sexually harassed.' The term is basically a joke these days.

That may be because just because your character is female, no one in game ever really knows.

Most female characters online have turned out to be men (in my experience), and a lot of women play male characters (and you never find out).

I know this dichodemy is really, REALLY hard for you to grasp, but try to keep up.

In Eve, being killed is allowable in the rules. Being sexually harassed is not.

Are you beginning to understand the difference?
This is the most basic, most important point of all, and I really don't understand why some people can't seem to grasp it.

What happened in this SL incident was not rape. Even though the complaining party called it that, it does not match the legal definition of rape. Period.

But it MIGHT match the definition of sexual harassment, which is against the law in many countries all by itself.

And frankly, I am sick and tired of this "it's not really happening because it's just a game" argument that some people have been posting. If someone says to you, to your face, "I'm going to rape you," they're not really raping you at that moment, but they did really do something. They really threatened you.

And if they write it to you in a letter, then they still really did it.

And if they post it to you in a game, they STILL. REALLY. DID. IT.

(Bold mine)

Here's my dilemma:

<Snip>I don't get it.

Griefing's griefing. Whether it involves petrifying some hapless sucker's alter ego for days, killing the fucker every 10 seconds, or monopolizing the idiot's attention and verbally abusing him/her in some fashion, it's all the same damn thing.

Rape is sexually abusing someone in the real world.

If you're in an unmodded virtual environment, you can make it all stop by leaving. If you're in a modded virtual environment, you don't even have to. You can just appeal to the staff.

Rape is something you can't stop. It's something you can't do anything about. And if you're lucky, it's something you'll get told is your own damn fault.

I dunno. I think Goodwin would laugh his ass off over this.

Ultimately, there is no non-consensual online activity. But hey, next time someone asks me if I want coffee, I'll cry rape too. Makes perfect sense... In some other weird universe.

I know this dichodemy is really, REALLY hard for you to grasp, but try to keep up.

In Eve, being killed is allowable in the rules. Being sexually harassed is not.

Are you beginning to understand the difference?

Kinda hard to be sexually harassed in Eve.

* tries to get a mental picture of one ship fucking another *

Nope, can't be done like it can in Second Life.

Seriously, guys and gals here. I get everyone around is pretty much an interbutt nut. Let's envision ourselves as victims of an online raep/harassment.

If we couldn't get away from it, we would be either:

A) Not really trying.
B) Not skilled enough in the use of teh interbutt.
C) Taking teh interbutt a lil too much as "serious bussiness".
Meh. This is the same thing people have told women who received threatening phone calls or harassing letters or work-place harassment.

"Just unplug the phone."

"Just change your number."

"Just don't open the mail."

"Just grow a thicker skin."

I don't waste time blaming the victims. There are enough ignorant assholes doing that already.

Kinda hard to be sexually harassed in Eve.

* tries to get a mental picture of one ship fucking another *

Nope, can't be done like it can in Second Life.

yeah because harassment can never happen through things like...I dunno...words..

That's where it's at!
Well, yeah. If your avatar has become an extension of your person, you could suffer a lot from "online raeping". That's true. But the solution isn't police investigation: THE SOLUTION IS GETTING THE FUCK OUT OF YOUR BASEMENT AND START HAVING A FIRST LIFE, RATHER THAN A SECOND ONE. And, if that doesn't work, get some goddamned therapy and counseling, for pete's sake, level-headed people don't feel raeped over teh interbutt. They get angry, tell the sad attempt of a rapist to GTFO, set them on ignore, and call the mods. Or just, you know, SHUT THE DAMNED PROGRAM OFF AND GO GRAB A SANDWICH, or WHATEVER, not standing there being raeped, as if your body would die without a mind if you pulled the plug... :D

The further we intergrate into 'cyberspace' the more this will be valid personification of yourself.

yeah because harassment can never happen through things like...I dunno...words..

Well, I was wondering why you thought killing was so much better than rape...

Is it merely because the EULA says killing is ok?

If so, would you be OK if Second Life said in its EULA, 'and rape is OK'...

This is the most basic, most important point of all, and I really don't understand why some people can't seem to grasp it.

What happened in this SL incident was not rape. Even though the complaining party called it that, it does not match the legal definition of rape. Period.

But it MIGHT match the definition of sexual harassment, which is against the law in many countries all by itself.


Yes, I think I said that, I'm not disagreeing heh

The further we intergrate into 'cyberspace' the more this will be valid personification of yourself.

Whos we?

That may be because just because your character is female, no one in game ever really knows.

Most female characters online have turned out to be men (in my experience), and a lot of women play male characters (and you never find out).

For the truth. I'm a guy and I USUALLY play female characters. Why? the simplest answer is that if I'm going to spend hours staring at a digital toy, I'd rather have it be something that pleases my eyes: A girl, that is. But feel free to add any freudian extrapolations! They'd probably be true too.

Plus I also choose girls in one-on-one fighting games too. and I draw too, and I draw mostly girls.

When I had a go at playing Call of Duty 3 I saw something that really takes all the fun out of war game/FPS'ers...

A soldier fucking another soldier...who was dead. Really rather put a dampener on things.

(if you stand over someone who just died and do the crouching thing it looks like you're fucking the dead guy))

Its called corpse humping. If someone really had to humiliate another player it would be much less odd if they just shot the dead body.

I only played CoD 1, what is 3 like?

Meh. This is the same thing people have told women who received threatening phone calls or harassing letters or work-place harassment.It's not a valid comparison, and incidentally, those are exactly the reasons it's a fucking terrible idea to connect internet nuisances with real-world threats to people's safety.

I don't get it.

Griefing's griefing. Whether it involves petrifying some hapless sucker's alter ego for days, killing the fucker every 10 seconds, or monopolizing the idiot's attention and verbally abusing him/her in some fashion, it's all the same damn thing.

Rape is sexually abusing someone in the real world.

If you're in an unmodded virtual environment, you can make it all stop by leaving. If you're in a modded virtual environment, you don't even have to. You can just appeal to the staff.

Rape is something you can't stop. It's something you can't do anything about. And if you're lucky, it's something you'll get told is your own damn fault.

The thing is, everything people are saying about internet sex threats is the SAME SHIT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT REAL-LIFE SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

That's what makes me "uh-oh" meter start jumping.

We've heard it all on this thread. Victims should just leave. Should just find a new game. Should just learn to lie about their gender or orientation. Victims should get used to it. Should accept that that's just how it is. Etc.

Real-world rape victims are told all the time that it was their fault for being in that neighborhood, or in that skirt, or in that state of intoxication. We are only now, FINALLY, getting to a point where society is starting to call bullshit on that crap, though blaming the victim is still certainly alive and well.

My entire point, this whole time, seems to be getting completely ignored.

I am completely aware that real-world rape is different from internet sexual threats and whatnot. I'm willing to bet solid money that I am more aware of the realities of BOTH of those than you are.

My point is simply that the shit that goes down on the internet is not taken seriously enough, and the concerns of the targets of this type of harassment are brushed aside far too often. I don't have any desire to see in-game rape fantasies viewed as equivalent to real-world rape.

What I want is for people to be able to take in-game problems seriously without anybody needing to drop the r-word. And, so far, the problem for me has been that this doesn't happen. The in-game or in-forum problems don't get ANY attention unless you fucking scream at the top of your damn lungs.

My whole problem is that I hate the idea of people hollering about "rape" when they are really talking about cyber "assaults" or something like that, but I also recognize that there is no existing term that reflects the seriousness of those issues. That's a shitty situation.


Ultimately, there is no non-consensual online activity.

That's as bullshit as saying there's no non-consensual activity in public spaces. I mean, you consented to go out in public, right? I guess you automatically consent to whatever somebody does to you in public.

Well, I was wondering why you thought killing was so much better than rape...

Is it merely because the EULA says killing is ok?

If so, would you be OK if Second Life said in its EULA, 'and rape is OK'...

*sigh* you are daft.

A EULA is a licensing agreement. It is a contract. No contract between parties can make illegal activity legal. You can't make a legally binding contract to kill someone. You can't make a contract to rob a bank.

You can't make a contract to do anything illegal. Sexual harassment is illegal. Killing someone's virtual toon is not.

Therefore no, I wouldn't be ok with it if they said that in the EULA, because no contract can allow for illegal activity.

Now, however, one could argue that if you joined a game that said, specifically, sexual harassment is allowed, one COULD argue that anyone who joined that game would have consented to it.

If you want to make that argument, that since you are wanred that sexual activity goes on, and by playing the game you consent to all sexual conversations, and thus playing the game constitutes implied consent...well ok. Sure. If a company WANTED to put that there, and someone WANTED to play, then that's their choice, they consented.

It's not a valid comparison

how is it in any way not?

Well, yes, sure. I'll admit that my knowledge of the belgian criminal code is rusty. Whether it constituted "some crime" in belgium is really beyond my legal expertise.

I merely am refering to the idea, in general, whether calling it "rape" is accurate.
I think the idea of whether the term "rape" is accurate or not is trivial.

It's not rape. OK? Let's be done with that.

Now let's ask ourselves, if it's not rape, then what is it?

And while we're at it, let's define what we mean by "it," too. What are we really talking about here? We can't really discuss this particular SL incident because we don't know enough about it. We know that a woman claimed that guy had his avatar hump her avatar despite her telling him not to. We do not know why this person got as upset as she did - upset enough to call the police. Is it because she is an emotionally fragile person? Is it because the other player used sexually explicit, derogatory or threatening words whiile he did it? We do not know what happened, so we cannot even speculate about it usefully.

But we can talk about the use of sex in games in general. We can talk about the use of sex in Second Life in particular. We can talk about the exposure of children to sexual content in games.

And we can talk about the attitudes and ethics of games and gamers. We can talk about proper and impromper uses of violence. We can talk about rule enforcement and mods. We can talk about harrassment and whether there is real danger from cyber-stalkers.

And we can talk about whether there should be laws covering these things and whether it should be possible, legally, to commit a crime while playing a game.

Meh. This is the same thing people have told women who received threatening phone calls or harassing letters or work-place harassment.

"Just unplug the phone."

"Just change your number."

"Just don't open the mail."

"Just grow a thicker skin."

I don't waste time blaming the victims. There are enough ignorant assholes doing that already.

It's not the same thing. Most of interbutt services allow you to selectively cut contact from one source. Also, not disclosing too much personal information, or revealing THOROUGLY FORGED personal information, is a safe and healthy practice over teh interbutt. Also, I'm talking about preventing - If you gave enough detail for the harasser to be able to track you all over teh interbutt, you let them get too close. THEN it's time to get help.

Mind you, the mother of a friend of mine is being harassed by her ex-husband, IRL. So I won't side with the harasser, at all. I'm just saying that getting the proper tools and skills to stop harassment is easier over teh interbutt than IRL.

It's not a valid comparison, and incidentally, those are exactly the reasons it's a fucking terrible idea to connect internet nuisances with real-world threats to people's safety.
How so?

It's a perfectly valid comparison. Plenty of people work online now. Plenty of people use email and chat instead of phones or snailmail for their communication.

I think this is just the usual stuff that happens when technology progresses faster than people's sensibilities. Lots of people like to view the "new" technology as some how exempt from the same rules as our existing structure. That will change with time.

*sigh* you are daft.

A EULA is a licensing agreement. It is a contract. No contract between parties can make illegal activity legal. You can't make a legally binding contract to kill someone. You can't make a contract to rob a bank.

You can't make a contract to do anything illegal. Sexual harassment is illegal. Killing someone's virtual toon is not.

Therefore no, I wouldn't be ok with it if they said that in the EULA, because no contract can allow for illegal activity.

Now, however, one could argue that if you joined a game that said, specifically, sexual harassment is allowed, one COULD argue that anyone who joined that game would have consented to it.

If you want to make that argument, that since you are wanred that sexual activity goes on, and by playing the game you consent to all sexual conversations, and thus playing the game constitutes implied consent...well ok. Sure. If a company WANTED to put that there, and someone WANTED to play, then that's their choice, they consented.

Germany is talking about making "killing" a toon in game illegal.

Of course - problem solved - if you live in Germany, you won't be able to play Eve, because by agreeing to the EULA, you will be violating the law right off the bat.

What I'm talking about is the consent to a style of play.

Eve has extremely limited your ability to do anything of a sexual nature. It's just not as easy as it is in Second Life.

Apparently, the Second Life people haven't thought about how their game would be played, and how (or if) they would tolerate sexual activity and sexual harassment in game.

It's not the same thing. Most of interbutt services allow you to selectively cut contact from one source. Also, not disclosing too much personal information, or revealing THOROUGLY FORGED personal information, is a safe and healthy practice over teh interbutt. Also, I'm talking about preventing - If you gave enough detail for the harasser to be able to track you all over teh interbutt, you let them get too close. THEN it's time to get help.

Are you kidding me? It is RIDICULOUSLY easy to track an average person over the 'net.

Are you kidding me? It is RIDICULOUSLY easy to track an average person over the 'net.

Depends on the application, and it depends on how you signed up.

It is very difficult to identify who a player really is in Eve Online, unless they do something stupid like post in the forums.

The game itself is not browser based, and the security is excellent.

Unless you're careless enough to post your own personal details, no one will know who you are.

Germany is talking about making "killing" a toon in game illegal.

Of course - problem solved - if you live in Germany, you won't be able to play Eve, because by agreeing to the EULA, you will be violating the law right off the bat.

Not exactly, you wouldn't be violating the law. However the EULA would not be a sign of consent.

It's a good thing you're not pretending to be a lawyer anymore.

What I'm talking about is the consent to a style of play.

Eve has extremely limited your ability to do anything of a sexual nature. It's just not as easy as it is in Second Life.

Apparently, the Second Life people haven't thought about how their game would be played, and how (or if) they would tolerate sexual activity and sexual harassment in game.

What does any of this have to do with the

Not exactly, you wouldn't be violating the law. However the EULA would not be a sign of consent.

It's a good thing you're not pretending to be a lawyer anymore.

What does any of this have to do with the

The Eve EULA has been explained many times to its players.

It DOES imply consent to being killed online, over and over again, for no reason at all. You consent to the roleplay of that killing, and the killing of your toon, over and over again. You consent to the nonconsensual nature of that killing.

If at any time you do not consent, you lose your right to play the game. They have permabanned people for whining that they were killed nonconsensually.

The Eve EULA has been explained many times to its players.

It DOES imply consent to being killed online, over and over again, for no reason at all. You consent to the roleplay of that killing, and the killing of your toon, over and over again. You consent to the nonconsensual nature of that killing.

If at any time you do not consent, you lose your right to play the game. They have permabanned people for whining that they were killed nonconsensually.

OK, and once again, what the hell is your point?

Listen carefully, ok, listen very, VERY carefully

Being killed online is not a crime.

Eve Online's EULA states that to play the game you consent to being killed.

Ergo, to play Eve Online you consent to something that is NOT illegal.

The EULA however can not, ever, at any time, require something illegal. It can not say "to play Eve Online you consent to our staff coming to your house and shooting you in the head, killing you". It just can't. THe contract would be null and void. You can not contract illegal activity.

Eve Online CAN contract killing of little avatars because that is not illegal activity.

Sexual harassment is illegal activity, and once again, a contract can not contract for illegal activity.

In other words I don't give a flying fuck what you consent to when you play eve online, as long as it is not a crime to do what you consent to.

What part of this are you not getting?

Whos we?

Society, humanity, new generation of computer people.

OK, and once again, what the hell is your point?

Listen carefully, ok, listen very, VERY carefully

Being killed online is not a crime.

In Germany, it soon will be. What part of that do you not get?

In Germany, it soon will be.

Even assuming this is true, what the fuck does that have to do with anything?

No, seriously, what the fuck does that have to do with any part of what we are talking about?

How is it, in any way, of any relevance what so fucking ever to this discussion, or the validity of the point, if Germany makes it illegal to kill avatars in a computer game?

If germany makes it illegal to kill avatars, then killing avatars will be illegal in germany. So the fuck what?

So let me get this straight, You join a role playing game and your sprite gets raped by someone elses sprite:confused: Does the game allow sex between sprites:confused: And you are 'sposed to get upset over this cos your sprite feels dirty:confused: Really, if we put all these plonkers on a spaceship and fired them at the sun then it could only benefit the gene pool!

Even assuming this is true, what the fuck does that have to do with anything?

No, seriously, what the fuck does that have to do with any part of what we are talking about?

How is it, in any way, of any relevance what so fucking ever to this discussion, or the validity of the point, if Germany makes it illegal to kill avatars in a computer game?

If germany makes it illegal to kill avatars, then killing avatars will be illegal in germany. So the fuck what?

It has everything to do with it.

You're just completely blind to the idea.

It's all in the question I asked you - why is the idea of killing ok, and the idea of rape not ok?

All legality aside...

But you're so far up your ass with being a lawyer, that you can't think of any other possibility of context...

Why do people even play Second Life?? It's one of the shittiest games I've ever had the complete lack of pleasure to try playing.

It's all in the question I asked you - why is the idea of killing ok, and the idea of rape not ok?

Consent, you dumbfuck.

The thing is, everything people are saying about internet sex threats is the SAME SHIT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT REAL-LIFE SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

That's what makes me "uh-oh" meter start jumping.

We've heard it all on this thread. Victims should just leave. Should just find a new game. Should just learn to lie about their gender or orientation. Victims should get used to it. Should accept that that's just how it is. Etc.

Real-world rape victims are told all the time that it was their fault for being in that neighborhood, or in that skirt, or in that state of intoxication. We are only now, FINALLY, getting to a point where society is starting to call bullshit on that crap, though blaming the victim is still certainly alive and well.

My entire point, this whole time, seems to be getting completely ignored.

I am completely aware that real-world rape is different from internet sexual threats and whatnot. I'm willing to bet solid money that I am more aware of the realities of BOTH of those than you are.

My point is simply that the shit that goes down on the internet is not taken seriously enough, and the concerns of the targets of this type of harassment are brushed aside far too often. I don't have any desire to see in-game rape fantasies viewed as equivalent to real-world rape.

What I want is for people to be able to take in-game problems seriously without anybody needing to drop the r-word. And, so far, the problem for me has been that this doesn't happen. The in-game or in-forum problems don't get ANY attention unless you fucking scream at the top of your damn lungs.

My whole problem is that I hate the idea of people hollering about "rape" when they are really talking about cyber "assaults" or something like that, but I also recognize that there is no existing term that reflects the seriousness of those issues. That's a shitty situation.
Your point is not lost on me. :)

Everything you've said has been entirely valid and strikes to the heart of the matter. Do we or do we not bear responsibility for our actions, even when we are playing? I say, yes, we do.

If I'm playing a game with someone and I say or do something, in character, in the context of the gameplay, that upsets the other player, I don't need to care whether they are getting upset over something important or something trivial or something completely crazy that they just imagined. All I need to care about is that they are upset. And since I am a human being who has even the slightest empathy for my fellow humans, I must stop what I am doing, step out of character, and say, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you." And I need to not do that same thing to them again. Ever. Period.

When someone says, "This person hurt me, personally (by harrassment, threats, etc), during this game," that needs to be taken seriously.

I am sick of and sickened by these "just get over it; that's the way the game is played" arguments. To me they sound like nothing but the self-justifications of bullies.

Originally Posted by Similization
Ultimately, there is no non-consensual online activity.
That's as bullshit as saying there's no non-consensual activity in public spaces. I mean, you consented to go out in public, right? I guess you automatically consent to whatever somebody does to you in public.
I agree. If that remark were anything but total bullshit, then, if there is no non-consensual online activity, and you use online banking and someone hacks your bank's servers, you should just accept them emptying all your accounts. Or if your identity is stolen via online commercial transaction records, then you should pay all those bills and taxes that are racked up by someone using your name since you consented to it, obviously, since that information was taken from an online source.

That really was the most bankrupt statement I've read so far.

Consent, you dumbfuck.

If it's in the game EULA then, you consent to it.

It's all in the question I asked you - why is the idea of killing ok, and the idea of rape not ok?


Because when you kill someone over the internet, you are not actually killing a human life. When you sexually harass someone over the internet, you are sexually harassing the person in real life as well (assuming this is harassment through words).

If it's in the game EULA then, you consent to it.

no shit. Where in the EULA has anyone consented to having lewd emotes and tells?

In fact every single EULA expressly FORBIDS it.

Because when you kill someone over the internet, you are not actually killing a human life. When you sexually harass someone over the internet, you are sexually harassing the person in real life as well (assuming this is harassment through words).

Because Germany is about to make online killing illegal, where does that put you?

They seem to think it's really killing...

Why not just make rape impossible in the game? Its obvious that if ANYTHING is possible in a web game, the punters will find how to do it! Thats how Barrel jumping ( standing on an oil barrel and fireing your rocket launcher into it while jumping. you can then jump to impossible hights) came about in Quake. Anyway its only a bloody game!

no shit. Where in the EULA has anyone consented to having lewd emotes and tells?

In fact every single EULA expressly FORBIDS it.

You said previously that signing a EULA does not imply consent. Which is it?

Because Germany is about to make online killing illegal, where does that put you?


Well thats fucked up, but thats besides the point of the actual discussion.

Well thats fucked up, but thats besides the point of the actual discussion.

On a purely non-legal note, do you think that online killing is morally acceptable?

You said previously that signing a EULA does not imply consent. Which is it?


where the fuck did I ever say that? Please, show me once.

I said you can not, by definition, consent to an illegal act, but that's something entirely different

Are you kidding me? It is RIDICULOUSLY easy to track an average person over the 'net.

Yeah, and more or less as ridiculously easy to stop the incoming data from them, unless they resort to h4xx0r1ng 1337 skillz.

Someone I don't want to talk to gets my msn? I block them.
Someone I don't want to talk to harass me over RO? I ignore them. They fuck with me in-game? I bring the case to the mods.
Someone says something stupid to me over SL? (I have SL installed, and have logged sometimes into it, but it seems somewhat pointless to me) I tell them to GTFO.
Someone sends me threatening e-mails? Well, I receive heaps of spam everyday.

The solution: ignore and report to the mods.

Unless they resort to 1337 h4xx0ring, in which case, I would be screwed.

where the fuck did I ever say that?

Please, show me once.
Go back and read in the thread.

All legality aside, why is it that people here are making the argument that online killing is morally acceptable because it's "not real", but online harassment (or online rape of a toon) is not morally acceptable because "it's real"

Either what happens in a simulation is all real, or not.

If the online killing is not real, neither is anything else that happens in game.

On a purely non-legal note, do you think that online killing is morally acceptable?

I think it's A-moral. The only thing it can amount to is a minor inconveniance if you have gotten really far with your charecter, and are forced to start from the beggining when you are killed.

Society, humanity, new generation of computer people.
New generation of stupid, sad people more like! Bet some poor bastard in Africa who has to walk 20 miles for water is really concerned about the possible rape of his avatar!

Go back and read in the thread.

You stated I said a EULA was not consent. I said show me where I said it.

Don't tell me to "go back" I know what I said. You show me where I said it. Go on, find it. Find me the post, show it to me. Prove me wrong, right in front of everyone. Go on, show me where i said it.

Either do that or shut the fuck up.


All legality aside, why is it that people here are making the argument that online killing is morally acceptable because it's "not real", but online harassment (or online rape of a toon) is not morally acceptable because "it's real"

Either what happens in a simulation is all real, or not.

If the online killing is not real, neither is anything else that happens in game.

Are you an idiot, really? Most people here agreed it is NOT in fact rape. I said it was not. Bottle said it was not, Murayvet said it was not. Who the fuck are you talking to trying to convince us it's not rape because it was simulated.

No shit, I agree with you on that, that's pretty fucking simple.

it can, however, be sexual harassment.

On a purely non-legal note, do you think that online killing is morally acceptable?

Just physically impossible! Its a fucking sprite!

If the online killing is not real, neither is anything else that happens in game.

How does that logically follow? Are you saying that if you sexually harass someone over the internet, you arn't actually sexually harassing them?

You stated I said a EULA was not consent. I said show me where I said it.

Don't tell me to "go back" I know what I said. You show me where I said it. Go on, find it. Find me the post, show it to me. Prove me wrong, right in front of everyone. Go on, show me where i said it.

Either do that or shut the fuck up.


Well, I guess you can continue to pretend you're a lawyer, with that mouth of yours.
it can, however, be sexual harassment.

Harassment of a toon? When they don't really have any way to know who you really are? When they don't even know if you're really male or female?

On the surface to me, this is akin to saying "someone beat up my imaginary friend." It seems silly. But, on the other end of that avatar is a person. Which is where the touchiness starts.

I don't think it's really comparable to real life sexual harrassment as if all else fails, you can turn the computer off. You shouldn't have to, but the unfortunate reality is that you may have to. Also, if sexual harrassment can occur thru mail or whatnot, why shouldn't it extend to the actions of avatars in-game?

[insert obligatory "slippery slope" statement here]

I empathize, but I also can't help but think this is overreaction.

New generation of stupid, sad people more like! Bet some poor bastard in Africa who has to walk 20 miles for water is really concerned about the possible rape of his avatar!

Quoted for complete truth. sometimes, although I feel myself evil, would like some people to have more real, true problems, so thay stop worrying about certain stupid nonsenses.

When you think of all the real computer crime (Fraud, identity theft, viruses, spywhere, child porn) is this not a particularly pathetic complaint?

When you think of all the real computer crime (Fraud, identity theft, viruses, spywhere, child porn) is this not a particularly pathetic complaint?

Yes. Playing a game is not a right - it is a privilege granted by the software company.

If you feel you're being treated badly in a game, the traditional thing to do is logoff and stop playing.

Just physically impossible! Its a fucking sprite!

That's a fact.

Also, perhaps we should remember the notions of "out of character" and "in character":

If someone harasses YOU, as an individual, through an interbutt service, that's plain harassing. How does the victim cope with it it's up to them.

If someone harasses your character, "kills" (yeah, yeah, no killing on teh interbutt, "how do you kill that which has no life?") your character, "rapes" your character, TOUGH CHEESE. As long as it's not against the rules of the game. It may be unpleasant, but, you knew you were exposed to that, you knew that it's allowed, and was a risk that you were willing to take. Yeah, PKing a clvl70 hardcore character in Diablo II online is being a DICK and a very mean person, but hey, it can be done, it's just plain evil, *not illegal*, so suck it up, buttercup. IT'S A GAME.

Yes. Playing a game is not a right - it is a privilege granted by the software company.

If you feel you're being treated badly in a game, the traditional thing to do is logoff and stop playing.

Right on!:D

That's a fact.

Also, perhaps we should remember the notions of "out of character" and "in character":

If someone harasses YOU, as an individual, through an interbutt service, that's plain harassing. How does the victim cope with it it's up to them.

If someone harasses your character, "kills" (yeah, yeah, no killing on teh interbutt, "how do you kill that which has no life?") your character, "rapes" your character, TOUGH CHEESE. As long as it's not against the rules of the game. It may be unpleasant, but, you knew you were exposed to that, you knew that it's allowed, and was a risk that you were willing to take. Yeah, PKing a clvl70 hardcore character in Diablo II online is being a DICK and a very mean person, but hey, it can be done, it's just plain evil, *not illegal*, so suck it up, buttercup. IT'S A GAME.

The lawyers here can't see it that way. To me, it's an anonymous simulation, unless you're stupid enough to use your real name and identification.

Prove to me that you can find out exactly who any toon is, and where they live, in Eve, and I'll take it back.

Otherwise, what happens to a toon, is simulation.

Go back and read in the thread.

All legality aside, why is it that people here are making the argument that online killing is morally acceptable because it's "not real", but online harassment (or online rape of a toon) is not morally acceptable because "it's real"

Either what happens in a simulation is all real, or not.

If the online killing is not real, neither is anything else that happens in game.
No one is making that argument. You brought it up.

If you want a response on this, here's mine:

Everything that happens in a simulation is real. What is real about it is that there are people doing it. "Doing it" = assessing the game situation, making a decision on action, and moving their game pieces (ships, avatars, etc) accordingly. All of those are real things, real actions. Therefore they really were done and really happened.

Now, let's say I'm playing a game which advertises itself as an open PK environment in which I will be in near constant danger from attack from the moment I log on. If I choose to log on, then I must be prepared to be attacked and deal with that. At the beginning I will likely get knocked out of the game frequently, but if I like to puppet-fight for fun, then I should just get back in and keep trying.

But let's say, in that same game, in the midst of all the fighting and trash talking and pissing contests that goe with it, there is one other player who decides to focus on me particularly and who starts to say and do things that are out of keeping with the rest of the game. Suppose while everyone else is threatening to frag my cramistan (or whatever) and make me their punk and so on, this one other guy is threatening to find where I live in real life, come to my house and kill my baby. That doesn't sound like mere trash talking, does it? And what if he keeps it up day after day after day, and keeps coming up with more and more elaborate and gruesome ways he intends to hurt me? What if I put him on ignore, but later learn he has been going around telling other people lies about me, as if he knows me personally -- sexual lies, lies about the way I live or things I do, etc?

Am I the one who can't tell game from reality? Or is he?

And am I supposed to just put up with that because fighting and killing and trash talking are part of the game? I don't think so.

Now let's say his harrassment has nothing to do with the game at all. Let's say, while we're all killing each other willy-nilly, he's constantly sending me private chat messages about all the sexual things he wants to do to me. Sure I can block that, too, but is it part of the game? Did I consent to being subjected to his sex fantasies just because I logged onto a public game?

And your final remark about how, if killing isn't real then nothing else is, is nonsense. I suppose if a pedophile uses the game to connect with an underage player for sex chat, that's not real because the killing in the game isn't real?

I'll admit that it's not as bad as an actual sexual harassment case, but that doesn't mean that these people shouldn't be banned from Second Life. I also think if the person continues to harass the player even though the player has done everything he/she can to block the person, then a charge could be made against the person since I can understand how this type of cyber stalking could be very distressing to some people.

I play a lot of "Battlefront Extrime" and the big wind up is team kills. Yeah you get shot in the back by your own team as you exit the spawn point. So you find the turd who did it and do it back. If your Avatar gets jumped in a back alley by someone in a virtual gimp mask, DEAL WITH IT! DO IT BACK!

I play a lot of "Battlefront Extrime" and the big wind up is team kills. Yeah you get shot in the back by your own team as you exit the spawn point. So you find the turd who did it and do it back. If your Avatar gets jumped in a back alley by someone in a virtual gimp mask, DEAL WITH IT! DO IT BACK!

revenge rape?

The lawyers here can't see it that way. To me, it's an anonymous simulation, unless you're stupid enough to use your real name and identification.

Prove to me that you can find out exactly who any toon is, and where they live, in Eve, and I'll take it back.

Otherwise, what happens to a toon, is simulation.

Wow, you really are dense.

TRY to grasp this concept. See us, right here and now? We're online, I have no idea who you are, you have no idea who I am.

But I am interacting with you. I am communicating with you. It's a form of communication just as valid as email, or instant messages, or letters, or phone conversations, or face to face.

Communication is communication.

And if I am in a game, and I say something to you, this is not my CHARACTER interacting with your CHARACTER, it is me, talking to you.

And when I talk to you, I am obligated to follow certain laws. Sexual harassment via communication is against the law. It matters not HOW I communicate with you. If it's email, or phone, or face to face, or through pictures, or conversations, or instant messages, or forums, or communication through a game, sexual harassment via communication is a crime.

Your concept that somehow that the communication goes through a game somehow renders communication between party A and party B, not communication through individuals, but rather communication from one imaginary avatar through another is, frankly, ludicrus, ascinine, and frankly stupid.

The game provides a medium of communication. I can talk to you, just as I'm doing right now. if I utilize that method of communication to sexually harass you, I have committed a crime. The idea that somehow this is not true, because it's not me talking to you, but rather my character talking to your character is beyond idiotic.

Am I the one who can't tell game from reality? Or is he?

You. It's your toon. The other player has no idea who you really are.


And am I supposed to just put up with that because fighting and killing and trash talking are part of the game? I don't think so.

It is in Eve. If you don't like it, go play WoW.


Now let's say his harrassment has nothing to do with the game at all. Let's say, while we're all killing each other willy-nilly, he's constantly sending me private chat messages about all the sexual things he wants to do to me. Sure I can block that, too, but is it part of the game? Did I consent to being subjected to his sex fantasies just because I logged onto a public game?
No, but you can block it. Quite simple.

Once again, it's unlikely, because most players know that just because a character is "female" it has no connection with reality. In that case, he has a problem with reality. All of the women that I know who play (whom I have met in person) play as male characters.

Once again, the game I play is open-ended. I can show up at the station where you park your ship, camp outside with friends, and blow you up every time you undock, until I get tired of it. And it's not considered harassment, unless you are a very, very, very new character. Even if I sit outside and talk trash about what a poor player you are.

<snip>


Harassment of a toon? When they don't really have any way to know who you really are? When they don't even know if you're really male or female?
What does that have to do with it? So what if the harasser doesn't know who he is harassing? He is still picking a target for harrassement, and the harrassment is aimed at the person behind the avatar, no matter who that might be. That's the difference between harrassment and role-play trash talking.

All legality aside, why is it that people here are making the argument that online killing is morally acceptable because it's "not real", but online harassment (or online rape of a toon) is not morally acceptable because "it's real"

Either what happens in a simulation is all real, or not.

If the online killing is not real, neither is anything else that happens in game.

That's nonsense. If I call you a noodle-head right now, I have really called you a noodle-head. This is pretty unambiguous. If I call you a dirty little slut and describe all the ways I'd like to rape you, I have really done this. You have really been told those things. If, however, I kill your character, you are not really dead. How hard is this to grasp?

What does that have to do with it? So what if the harasser doesn't know who he is harassing? He is still picking a target for harrassement, and the harrassment is aimed at the person behind the avatar, no matter who that might be. That's the difference between harrassment and role-play trash talking.

If someone was talking to a "female" character in Eve, it's likely he's talking to a guy about that sort of stuff. It's ROFLMAO material.

no! Its A Fucking Sprite! Its Like A Picture In A Book! If You Place Your Finger On A Picture Of Micky Mouse's Crotch You Are Not Sexually Assaulting Micky Mouse! Try Talking To Some People Who Have Been Really Raped! Jesus H Christ!!!!!!!!!

If someone was talking to a "female" character in Eve, it's likely he's talking to a guy about that sort of stuff. It's ROFLMAO material.

This article would beg to differ, as it was a female in question.

I also know a very nice lesbian couple who play eve...

The idea that somehow this is not true, because it's not me talking to you, but rather my character talking to your character is beyond idiotic.

If that's true then why do the Mods on this site differentiate between IC and OCC communication?

Suppose while everyone else is threatening to frag my cramistan (or whatever) and make me their punk and so on, this one other guy is threatening to find where I live in real life, come to my house and kill my baby. That doesn't sound like mere trash talking, does it? And what if he keeps it up day after day after day, and keeps coming up with more and more elaborate and gruesome ways he intends to hurt me? What if I put him on ignore, but later learn he has been going around telling other people lies about me, as if he knows me personally -- sexual lies, lies about the way I live or things I do, etc?

-snip-

Now let's say his harrassment has nothing to do with the game at all. Let's say, while we're all killing each other willy-nilly, he's constantly sending me private chat messages about all the sexual things he wants to do to me. Sure I can block that, too, but is it part of the game? Did I consent to being subjected to his sex fantasies just because I logged onto a public game?


I'm not sure those two examples really sync up. In one you have a very clear case of a dangerous stalker, in the other you have a person harassing you solely on-line and doing things that would likely result in a ban if you brought it to the admins.

Of course you didn't consent to said harassment and of course it isn't part of the game, but until he becomes something more than a nuisance and a jerk, blocking him and bringing a case to the admins is really the only thing that can be done. If it keeps happening (via alt accounts or somesuch), then you may have a case for harassment.

no! Its A Fucking Sprite! Its Like A Picture In A Book! If You Place Your Finger On A Picture Of Micky Mouse's Crotch You Are Not Sexually Assaulting Micky Mouse! Try Talking To Some People Who Have Been Really Raped! Jesus H Christ!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, what are you, 12?

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous!

This article would beg to differ, as it was a female in question.

I also know a very nice lesbian couple who play eve...

So, unless they were dumb enough to provide that identification, how would anyone know?

On the surface to me, this is akin to saying "someone beat up my imaginary friend." It seems silly. But, on the other end of that avatar is a person. Which is where the touchiness starts.

I don't think it's really comparable to real life sexual harrassment as if all else fails, you can turn the computer off. You shouldn't have to, but the unfortunate reality is that you may have to. Also, if sexual harrassment can occur thru mail or whatnot, why shouldn't it extend to the actions of avatars in-game?

[insert obligatory "slippery slope" statement here]

I empathize, but I also can't help but think this is overreaction.
You undermined your own argument here.

Indeed, on the other end of the avatar is a person. That's the whole and entire point. And the issue is telling the difference between something that is done to the avatar and something that is done to the avatar but aimed at the person.

You yourself point out that people being harrassed shouldn't have to leave the game. They also shouldn't have to leave their jobs because of harrassment or change schools because of harrassment. They shouldn't have to be afraid to walk through their own neighborhood because of harrassment.

And as you point out, if harrassment can happen through the mail, etc, why shouldn't be recognized as happening in games too? Indeed, why not?

No I am not 12, I just have a sister that was really raped you ****!!

That's nonsense. If I call you a noodle-head right now, I have really called you a noodle-head. This is pretty unambiguous. If I call you a dirty little slut and describe all the ways I'd like to rape you, I have really done this. You have really been told those things. If, however, I kill your character, you are not really dead. How hard is this to grasp?

Not in a game where the simulated toon does not have my name or identity.

In Eve (unlike here, where people provide bits and pieces of their identity to support arguments), no one has any clue who you really are.

If that's true then why do the Mods on this site differentiate between IC and OCC communication?

ahh, because there there IS a clear differentiation. When communication is "in character" it can be said to be one CHARACTER talking to another CHARACTER. There the rules get more fuzzy (is it really roleplay, or is it an exuse using roleplay to really address the person).

But we're not talking about "in character" interaction. We're talking about out of character interaction.

In fact, the very existance of that dichotemy, that an "ooc" concept exists indicates that the mere fact that the communication occurs in game does not mean it automatically is between characters, not users.

No I am not 12, I just have a sister that was really raped you ****!!

and the validity of this is what, exactly?

So, unless they were dumb enough to provide that identification, how would anyone know?

and this is relevant how?

Seriously, what are you, 12?

And now she is infected with HIV from that rape. Just like in a game right??

no! Its A Fucking Sprite! Its Like A Picture In A Book! If You Place Your Finger On A Picture Of Micky Mouse's Crotch You Are Not Sexually Assaulting Micky Mouse! Try Talking To Some People Who Have Been Really Raped! Jesus H Christ!!!!!!!!!

"Hi, Poliwanacraca. I'm Poliwanacraca. Nice to meet you."

There, now that I've done as you suggested, will you stop shrieking nonsense at us?

and the validity of this is what, exactly? Real rape people get really hurt. Or are you so up your own arse that you cannot understand that?

and this is relevant how?

It's relevant because if I'm insulting or harassing a toon, and I have no idea who I'm really talking to (in fact, I might be talking to a guy), then it's kind of silly - my insults are likely meaningless, as are any attempts at harassment.

We get hate mail in Eve. I get it about half the time that I blow people away (I don't ransom, because mercy is not something I do in game).

A lot of promises to kill me in real life, etc. It doesn't do any good to report it to the mods, because they argue that the person in question has no idea who or where I really am.

No one gets banned or ejected for hate mail.

We post hate mails we receive on the forums there, because some of them are quite comical.

no! Its A Fucking Sprite! Its Like A Picture In A Book! If You Place Your Finger On A Picture Of Micky Mouse's Crotch You Are Not Sexually Assaulting Micky Mouse! Try Talking To Some People Who Have Been Really Raped! Jesus H Christ!!!!!!!!!

FOR THE WIN!

You. It's your toon. The other player has no idea who you really are.


It is in Eve. If you don't like it, go play WoW.


No, but you can block it. Quite simple.

Once again, it's unlikely, because most players know that just because a character is "female" it has no connection with reality. In that case, he has a problem with reality. All of the women that I know who play (whom I have met in person) play as male characters.

Once again, the game I play is open-ended. I can show up at the station where you park your ship, camp outside with friends, and blow you up every time you undock, until I get tired of it. And it's not considered harassment, unless you are a very, very, very new character. Even if I sit outside and talk trash about what a poor player you are.
Well done. When someone makes an argument that looks at multiple angles of the issue, just delete all the parts of it you can't answer and cherrypick only those parts that allow you to repeat your earlier nonsense with no further analysis.

And don't forget to tell women that, if they don't want to be sexually harrassed, they should turn themselves into men. :rolleyes:

ahh, because there there IS a clear differentiation. When communication is "in character" it can be said to be one CHARACTER talking to another CHARACTER. There the rules get more fuzzy (is it really roleplay, or is it an exuse using roleplay to really address the person).

But we're not talking about "in character" interaction. We're talking about out of character interaction.

In fact, the very existance of that dichotemy, that an "ooc" concept exists indicates that the mere fact that the communication occurs in game does not mean it automatically is between characters, not users.

I thought this was a case of one sprite assaulting another under the control of its' user. I think that would place it firmly in the arena of character to character communication. If it had been in the forums outside the actual game itself then I could see it being harrasment in the way you're discussing.


Or did I miss something and post a pointless message?

You undermined your own argument here.

Indeed, on the other end of the avatar is a person. That's the whole and entire point. And the issue is telling the difference between something that is done to the avatar and something that is done to the avatar but aimed at the person.

You yourself point out that people being harrassed shouldn't have to leave the game. They also shouldn't have to leave their jobs because of harrassment or change schools because of harrassment. They shouldn't have to be afraid to walk through their own neighborhood because of harrassment.

And as you point out, if harrassment can happen through the mail, etc, why shouldn't be recognized as happening in games too? Indeed, why not?


Wasn't really making an argument there, just sorta musing, but anyway...

Gah, I'm trying to put something together, but my words fail me right now. It's still a character in a game, regardless of what's happening. If you can't tell if the actions were aimed at the person or the avatar, how do you determine the crime? She may feel that actions aimed at the avatar are, by default, aimed at her, but that's not necessarily the case.

Well done. When someone makes an argument that looks at multiple angles of the issue, just delete all the parts of it you can't answer and cherrypick only those parts that allow you to repeat your earlier nonsense with no further analysis.


It's what you do.

Oh, and I'm not telling women to turn themselves into men. I'm just saying that if you are playing a toon, nothing that happens there is real, and it's not like they know who or where you are, unless you tell them (which would be stupidity on your part).

If someone was talking to a "female" character in Eve, it's likely he's talking to a guy about that sort of stuff. It's ROFLMAO material.
Irrelevant.

"Hi, Poliwanacraca. I'm Poliwanacraca. Nice to meet you."

There, now that I've done as you suggested, will you stop shrieking nonsense at us?

You are trying to equate two computer sprites bouncing on one another with real rape. I have a sister who was raped 5 years ago and was given HIV in the assault. And you cannot understand why I am very upset. Poli want it to happen to you mate!