NationStates Jolt Archive

Israel would never stand on its own merits..
Israel stands on Billions of US money used to finance one of the most expensive military industrial complex..
These billions make US not safer. It creates more hate.. and thats is where terror coemes from.

Without that US welfare money.. there would be no Israel.. there would be no Palestinean genocide.

BTW if Israel was created in Europe or North America.. chances are the Iraq war would have not happened.
US taxpayers are financing this endless pithole.
Israel's economy and military are perfectly sound enough for it to survive on its own.

I can't wait to see how you're going to link Israel to the war in Iraq...

The first and foremost right of all people is that of self-determination.

If a bunch of Jews want to move to a given part of the world and say "this belongs to us", and they happen to be in the majority in that region, then hey, that's their business.

However, Israel has no right to occupy the West Bank, Golan Hights, and Gaza Strip, nor should Israel's hostile actions be funded by taxpayers in America, the UK, or anywhere else except Israel.

Really, if Jews want to escape persecution and violence, they should move to the United States... we're not surrounded by suicide bombers...

Has anyone ever been killed for a necessary reason?

Yes, the Nazis who were executed after being found guilty at Nuremberg.

The question was whether Israel has a right to exist. I ask on what that right would be based. The answer is "because it exists". Which is not an answer really. Because Palestinian Arabs existed long before Israel existed as such, and they are denied the right to exist as a country because of the imposed creation of a state of foreigners there, without the consent of the population in the area at issue.
I just cannot understand how people only look at today#s situation but willfully ignore how it came to this, starting with the irresponsible promises that Balfour made to the Zionists. Israel was forced upon the Arabs. By the British, by the UN, by the Jews. The only reason why westerners are so ready to ignore this injustice is because Arabs are Muslims and Jews are practically Europeans. And they also readily ignore that there are still surviving Arab families who wait to return home but cannot because of the foreigners now living on the soil that once made their livelihood.Ignoring your numerous racist janet-jackson moments on this forum, I just wanted to make a simple comment about your post.
The reasoning "because it exists" is actually quite sound, pragmatically. Most nationstates in the world resulted from invasions, mass migrations, theft of land, killing, and wars - often to a much more extreme degree to that which took place in Israel. These countries include Canada and the U.S. I don't bring this up in order to "de-legitimize" these numerous countries, but to point out that moral "legitimacy" isn't the thing that defines a nationstate's existence. Self-government, some power, and international recognition are. Israel has these. Thus, it has all the legitimacy a country needs in order to exist. Recognizing this will only help you, and people that think like you, realize your important priorities regarding palestinian rights and national aspirations. Harping about legitimacy, europeanism and past mistakes, will not.

Um, his characterization of a large portion of the settlers is pretty much correct.

Indeed, plenty of Israelis would agree with him.I think you are quite wrong. The cases of beating and so forth are isolated. THe distrust, hatred, and superiority complexes are certainly there, but it goes both ways (antisemetism is rife among Palestinians, and there is no obvious distinction between Israelis and Jews). The violence also goes both ways. 8 members of my extended family were murdered in their house several years ago because the father could not reach his gun fast enough when a palestinian broke through the door and started shooting the kids.

Also, grouping all settlers into the Mafdal category is innacurate. Many settlers moved to the west bank for non-ideological, but rather economic reasons. It was a cheap place for a garden and beautiful view.

Now this is not to say that settlements are not a barrier to peace. they are absoloutly, and I think Israel's policy of building and protecting them was (and continues to be) one of it's most grievous errors ever. But I think it is a mistake to make settlers out as inhuman racist devils as well. They as people are not the embodiment of all that has gone wrong in the region, and constructing them as effigies to gleefully burn is just silly. These are people also.

Israel exists, all your wishing isn't going to make it otherwise. And if, by some chance, through violent upheaval and much death (because that's the only way it will happen) your wishful thinking becomes truth, what are you going to do with the precedent you establish? Will you then disestablish Liberia because it was artificially constructed by the U.S. to "repatriate" freed American slaves to Africa? After that, what country will you deconstruct? There are so many. I assume that Muslim states will be sacrosanct because, it appears, only Christians and Jews are evil so their states are fair game.

I find this whole discussion to be futile. Things are what they are and not something else, however much you may wish it. Nothing good is going to come out of the destruction of Israel. Instead of getting on a folly's road of destruction, try to find a constructive solution to the problems in the Middle East and the rest of the world. One that doesn't involve destroying the life's work and dreams of generations of people in order to pander to rich men who don't give a damn about the poor of their own people and instead use them as an excuse to attach others.

I think you are quite wrong. The cases of beating and so forth are isolated. THe distrust, hatred, and superiority complexes are certainly there, but it goes both ways (antisemetism is rife among Palestinians, and there is no obvious distinction between Israelis and Jews). The violence also goes both ways. 8 members of my extended family were murdered in their house several years ago because the father could not reach his gun fast enough when a palestinian broke through the door and started shooting the kids.

Also, grouping all settlers into the Mafdal category is innacurate. Many settlers moved to the west bank for non-ideological, but rather economic reasons. It was a cheap place for a garden and beautiful view.

Now this is not to say that settlements are not a barrier to peace. they are absoloutly, and I think Israel's policy of building and protecting them was (and continues to be) one of it's most grievous errors ever. But I think it is a mistake to make settlers out as inhuman racist devils as well. They as people are not the embodiment of all that has gone wrong in the region, and constructing them as effigies to gleefully burn is just silly. These are people also.

Yes, but they are also a large part of the problem, be they secular, or religous, fanatical or otherwise. I believe there are less than 500 in Hebron, yet the security required to protect them numbers in the thousands.

Yes, the Nazis who were executed after being found guilty at Nuremberg.Oh, the US say that about every of their executions...

Ignoring your numerous racist janet-jackson moments on this forum, I just wanted to make a simple comment about your post.
The reasoning "because it exists" is actually quite sound, pragmatically. Most nationstates in the world resulted from invasions, mass migrations, theft of land, killing, and wars - often to a much more extreme degree to that which took place in Israel. These countries include Canada and the U.S. I don't bring this up in order to "de-legitimize" these numerous countries, but to point out that moral "legitimacy" isn't the thing that defines a nationstate's existence. Self-government, some power, and international recognition are. Israel has these. Thus, it has all the legitimacy a country needs in order to exist. Recognizing this will only help you, and people that think like you, realize your important priorities regarding palestinian rights and national aspirations. Harping about legitimacy, europeanism and past mistakes, will not.And what about justice? Why the fuck did the Palestinian Arabs have to give up some of their land? If the West likes the Jews so much, why did they not get Wales or half of Pennsylvania? Or one of the German states? For what needed the Palestinian Arabs to be punished? They wanted to live in peace on the soil of their fathers. That's all. And they deserved that after they were free of Turkish rule. Why do they have to suffer a Jewish state imposed on them by foreigners? WHY? Just tell me!

And what about justice? Why the fuck did the Palestinian Arabs have to give up some of their land?

There is this little thing called negotiations. We also have to remember that UN Resolutions tells Israel to go to the Green Line. I'd support them doing that. Now tell me, would you support Israel going back to the Green Line?

If the West likes the Jews so much, why did they not get Wales or half of Pennsylvania? Or one of the German states? For what needed the Palestinian Arabs to be punished?

The Middle East is their ancestrial homeland. Wouldn't you want to go back to yours if you were in the same position?

They wanted to live in peace on the soil of their fathers.

So does Israel.

That's all. And they deserved that after they were free of Turkish rule.

Thanks to the British.

Why do they have to suffer a Jewish state imposed on them by foreigners? WHY? Just tell me!

Because the land was not theirs to begin with.

We could just wait a few hundred years, the people who actually care will be a small subset of the population, since over time the extremists on both sides with die out, somewhat like what has happened every time territory has been taken by an outside power. Israel isn't likely to be destroyed in that time anyway.

If we could just toss religion out the window I think a large portion of the problem would disappear along with it.

We could just carpet nuke the whole planet, that might, MAYBE, reduce the amount of fighting over land.

Because the land was not theirs to begin with.

...in the sense that they did not have self governance, not they did not own it.

There is this little thing called negotiations. We also have to remember that UN Resolutions tells Israel to go to the Green Line. I'd support them doing that. Now tell me, would you support Israel going back to the Green Line?Depends on the conditions. And so far Israel has only caused suffering to Arabs.

The Middle East is their ancestrial homeland. Wouldn't you want to go back to yours if you were in the same position?That's religious/ideological/racist rubbish. Jews have settled down in Europe and elsewhere. They had their lives and their homes there. Jews were European in culture, ideology, and conduct. There was no need to go to Palestine in an imperialist frenzy and demand new homes and take land from Arabs, who had nowhere to go.

So does Israel.No. They wanted someone else's soil, although they already had their own livelihood.

Thanks to the British.Then let the British take the Jews. Wales would be nice. The British had the responsibility to administer the area on the Arabs' behalf and they bitterly betrayed the Arabs, again.

Because the land was not theirs to begin with.Yes it was. Only because they have another concept of possession does not mean their home land was not theirs. And also because they had no political control does not mean it was not theirs.

If we could just toss religion out the window I think a large portion of the problem would disappear along with it.No. Although there are religious aspects to it, for Palestinian Arabs this is not about religion, it is about survival, culturally, economically, and otherwise.

I find it funny that you call Israel "Arab land." Do you know why? Originally, the Hebrews/Jews lived Israel long before the Arabs. The Arabs are the immigrants who came from Arabia. You cannot call Israel "Muslim land" either, because Judiasm was before Islam. The Jews were kicked out of their homeland by the Romans.

When the Jews started to return from Diaspora to their homeland, the Arab/Muslims started to kill the returning Jews. This is the reason the UN split the land into a Muslim land, and part Jewish land. When the Arab countries decided to invade, the Jews destroyed them and took the whole thing for themselves. If you want to blame anyone for the creation of Israel, blame the Arab countries and the Arab people. If the Arab immigrants were peaceful, the Jews and the Arabs would be able to live together in peace.

I find it funny that you call Israel "Arab land." Do you know why? Originally, the Hebrews/Jews lived Israel long before the Arabs. The Arabs are the immigrants who came from Arabia. You cannot call Israel "Muslim land" either, because Judiasm was before Islam. The Jews were kicked out of their homeland by the Romans.

When the Jews started to return from Diaspora to their homeland, the Arab/Muslims started to kill the returning Jews. This is the reason the UN split the land into a Muslim land, and part Jewish land. When the Arab countries decided to invade, the Jews destroyed them and took the whole thing for themselves. If you want to blame anyone for the creation of Israel, blame the Arab countries and the Arab people. If the Arab immigrants were peaceful, the Jews and the Arabs would be able to live together in peace.

Wrong. At least partially. There are sections of the Arab population of the area that are descended from the Canaanites which even the Bible admits were there before the Jews. Arabs, Jews, and others have immigrated/invaded/etc over the years. But if anyone was there first, and if it really matters (because the debate doesn't really help matters) it is some sections of the Arab community which descend from the Canaanites.

And what about justice? Why the fuck did the Palestinian Arabs have to give up some of their land? If the West likes the Jews so much, why did they not get Wales or half of Pennsylvania? Or one of the German states? For what needed the Palestinian Arabs to be punished? They wanted to live in peace on the soil of their fathers. That's all. And they deserved that after they were free of Turkish rule. Why do they have to suffer a Jewish state imposed on them by foreigners? WHY? Just tell me!
So you can take Western land but not Palestinian land. Right.

Oh, and don't say "Germany could have been punished", I doubt the Jews would have been particularly keen to live in a state which had previously wanted to exterminate them all. Slightly bad memories.

Oh, the US say that about every of their executions...
All right, how were the executions of Nazi war criminals not justified?

By the way, are you ever going to answer the question of how exactly you propose to make Israel go away?

So you can take Western land but not Palestinian land. Right.The West and the Jews themselves wanted the Jews to move. So it would have been just fair to put them somewhere in the West instead of dumping them into Palestine.
I always wonder how folks like you are so incapable of imagining the situation of an Arab peasant tilling the soil that his family has lived on for millennia, and then being asked to just disappear because in far distant Europe some anonymous Jews had expressed desire for his land. Where do you live? What do you call home? Would you just pack and leave, if some faceless institution decided that your home is no longer your home?

Oh, and don't say "Germany could have been punished", I doubt the Jews would have been particularly keen to live in a state which had previously wanted to exterminate them all. Slightly bad memories.So it was better to punish Arabs by taking their homes?

All right, how were the executions of Nazi war criminals not justified?The question was "Has anyone ever been killed for a necessary reason?" And US sees killing people for any crimes as necessary as killing the Nazi leaders.

By the way, are you ever going to answer the question of how exactly you propose to make Israel go away?Jews came to Palestine by ship or train. I suppose they could also leave by those means.

- “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
- “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”Just so you have an idea of the Jewish attitude.

So you can take Western land but not Palestinian land. Right.

No, why should anyone even be allowed to take other people's land without their consent? I am all for self-determination and the rights of every people to decide their country's future.

But not for anyone to take someone else's land.

Think about it. If tomorrow Martians arrived on Earth and decides to settle down. They saw your house and told you to get lost. Would they be justified in taking your home from you? Is it so hard to perceive the unfairness and injustice? Have a little empathy.

I find it funny that you call Israel "Arab land." Do you know why? Originally, the Hebrews/Jews lived Israel long before the Arabs. The Arabs are the immigrants who came from Arabia. You cannot call Israel "Muslim land" either, because Judiasm was before Islam. The Jews were kicked out of their homeland by the Romans.

When the Jews started to return from Diaspora to their homeland, the Arab/Muslims started to kill the returning Jews. This is the reason the UN split the land into a Muslim land, and part Jewish land. When the Arab countries decided to invade, the Jews destroyed them and took the whole thing for themselves. If you want to blame anyone for the creation of Israel, blame the Arab countries and the Arab people. If the Arab immigrants were peaceful, the Jews and the Arabs would be able to live together in peace.

...and what of the people the original Israelites killed & the acts of genocide they perpetuated, against those living in the area prior to their staking claim to those lands? What of them?

You want to talk shit, let's talk shit.

The West and the Jews themselves wanted the Jews to move. So it would have been just fair to put them somewhere in the West instead of dumping them into Palestine.
I always wonder how folks like you are so incapable of imagining the situation of an Arab peasant tilling the soil that his family has lived on for millennia, and then being asked to just disappear because in far distant Europe some anonymous Jews had expressed desire for his land. Where do you live? What do you call home? Would you just pack and leave, if some faceless institution decided that your home is no longer your home?

So it was better to punish Arabs by taking their homes?
I'm not arguing that it was. As we all know, the opinions of the West do not reflect that of its people, of course. However, the Jews have to go somewhere and they're not going anywhere now. Plenty of them have lived in Israel for their whole lives: the same argument can be applied to them.

The question was "Has anyone ever been killed for a necessary reason?" And US sees killing people for any crimes as necessary as killing the Nazi leaders.
:confused:

The impression I got from your post was that you were somehow disagreeing with CK...

Jews came to Palestine by ship or train. I suppose they could also leave by those means.

Just so you have an idea of the Jewish attitude.
Uh-huh. Now try to figure out how you're going to get them to leave.

I'm not arguing that it was. Yes you are.

As we all know, the opinions of the West do not reflect that of its people, of course. However, the Jews have to go somewhere and they're not going anywhere now. Plenty of them have lived in Israel for their whole lives: the same argument can be applied to them.No. They are the sons and daughters of invaders, and they continue the invasion and even extend it, thus they share the guilt of displacing Arabs.
And the Jews were already somewhere, they did not need to go somewhere else, let alone have their own state at the expense of others.

:confused:
The impression I got from your post was that you were somehow disagreeing with CK...your confusion seems inherent...
I only wanted to hint that the understanding what is a "necessary" killing is highly arbitrary.

Uh-huh. Now try to figure out how you're going to get them to leave.International pressure. Diplomacy. Force. Just what has been used against the Palestinian Arabs in the past 90 years.

I find it funny that you call Israel "Arab land." Do you know why? Originally, the Hebrews/Jews lived Israel long before the Arabs. The Arabs are the immigrants who came from Arabia. You cannot call Israel "Muslim land" either, because Judiasm was before Islam. The Jews were kicked out of their homeland by the Romans.

I suppose you find it funny calling Carlifornia American. 'Cause, I mean, they're so obviously Amerindian and Russian. Or England British, since, obviously, they're Roman. Germany can't be German either, clearly, since they are actually Scandanavian.

Seriously, you don't see anything inherently wrong in claiming a piece of land which you neither control nor form a majoirty in for close to 2000 years?

When the Jews started to return from Diaspora to their homeland, the Arab/Muslims started to kill the returning Jews. This is the reason the UN split the land into a Muslim land, and part Jewish land. When the Arab countries decided to invade, the Jews destroyed them and took the whole thing for themselves. If you want to blame anyone for the creation of Israel, blame the Arab countries and the Arab people. If the Arab immigrants were peaceful, the Jews and the Arabs would be able to live together in peace.

That is a blatant lie. The reason the UN proposed partitioning was because Jews AND Arabs were killing each other so viciously, to the point that the British government gave out. Yes, Jews participated in killings too. Extremists existed on both sides and none were better when it comes to civility.

In fact probably the most infamous case of Jewish terrorism would be the bombing of King David Hotel, which claimed 91 lives, one of the worst cases of terrorism in Palestinian history. If Jews were so peaceful why would they attack the government and kill all these innocent people? Or do you think it is peaceful for Jews to kill Arabs, but Arabs doing the same to Jews would be stopping both sides from living in peace?

I'm not arguing that it was. As we all know, the opinions of the West do not reflect that of its people, of course. However, the Jews have to go somewhere and they're not going anywhere now. Plenty of them have lived in Israel for their whole lives: the same argument can be applied to them.

They still only formed a minority whe they seized (more than) half of Palestine. What of all the other Arabs who lived there for generations after generations for all their lives? Who also numbered a lot more?

I think Israel has a complete right to exist, because what people fail to realize is that the Palestinians are the ones starting all this terrorism because they want the land and the Israelis have all along wanted to share the land with the Palestinians and make peace with them, and their "terrorist" attacks on Palestinians are only for the self-defense of Israel. If you're a Jew or Christian who believes in the Old Testament (Torah), they could tell you that G-d gave Israel to the Jewish people and that Israel is the Jewish people's land. What other people may also be forgetting is the countless wars that Israelis have won against the Palestinians (Independence War, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War), so obviously this should be telling people something. And if you're gonna say, Well what about the recent Hezbollah War, I could respond by saying that that was not even a real war, because 1. Hezbollah used extremely unfair war tactics, such as shielding themselves behind inncoent Lebanese people, and making it difficult for the Israeli army to attack Hezbollah without killing innocent Lebanese people, and 2. Lebanon on maps during the war was always depicted as a tiny little country compared to Israel, but in actuality, they show you only part of Lebanon. The real Lebanon is at least the size of, if not bigger than, Israel itself.

I think Israel has a complete right to exist, because what people fail to realize is that the Palestinians are the ones starting all this terrorism because they want the land and the Israelis have all along wanted to share the land with the Palestinians and amke peace with them, and their "terrorist" attacks on Palestinians are only for the self-defense of Israel. If you're a Jew or Christian who believes in the Old Testament (Torah), they could tell you that G-d gave Israel to the Jewish people and that Israel is the Jewish people's land. What other people may also be forgetting is the countless wars that Israelis have won against the Palestinians (Independence War, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War), so obviously this should be telling people something. And if you're gonna say, Well what about the recent Hezbollah War, I could respond by saying that that was not even a real war, because 1. Hezbollah used extremely unfair war tactics, such as shielding themselves behind inncoent Lebanese people, and making it difficult for the Israeli army to attack Hezbollah without killing innocent Lebanese people, and 2. Lebanon on maps during the war was always depicted as a tiny little country compared to Israel, but in actuality, they show you only part of Lebanon. The real Lebanon is at least the size of, if not bigger than, Israel itself.

Please, cut the hypocritical bullcrap. It was fine for Jews to use terrorism to get them self a piece of land they in no way deserved, and yet its some how more wrong for Arabs to fight back in kind? Israel didn't want to share land with Palestine and some religious fundamentalists still don't. But most have matured enought to realise that they'll have to live with it short of resorting to genocide.

And Jews used terrorism all right. Why the hell do we have this Palestinian refugee problem? Because back in the 1948 War Israeli forces massacred Palestinian villagers, so that the Arabs would flee. Then Jews can move in to steal their homes and properties, after stealing their country.

If that is not terrorism, what is?

The only thing Israel's wars tell us is how militaristic they are and how horribly wrong a cause American taxpayer's money is going towards.

There is this little thing called negotiations. We also have to remember that UN Resolutions tells Israel to go to the Green Line. I'd support them doing that. Now tell me, would you support Israel going back to the Green Line?



The Middle East is their ancestrial homeland. Wouldn't you want to go back to yours if you were in the same position?



So does Israel.



Thanks to the British.



Because the land was not theirs to begin with.

Idiot.

I think Israel has a complete right to exist, because what people fail to realize is that the Palestinians are the ones starting all this terrorism because they want the land and the Israelis have all along wanted to share the land with the Palestinians and make peace with them, and their "terrorist" attacks on Palestinians are only for the self-defense of Israel. If you're a Jew or Christian who believes in the Old Testament (Torah), they could tell you that G-d gave Israel to the Jewish people and that Israel is the Jewish people's land. What other people may also be forgetting is the countless wars that Israelis have won against the Palestinians (Independence War, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War), so obviously this should be telling people something. And if you're gonna say, Well what about the recent Hezbollah War, I could respond by saying that that was not even a real war, because 1. Hezbollah used extremely unfair war tactics, such as shielding themselves behind inncoent Lebanese people, and making it difficult for the Israeli army to attack Hezbollah without killing innocent Lebanese people, and 2. Lebanon on maps during the war was always depicted as a tiny little country compared to Israel, but in actuality, they show you only part of Lebanon. The real Lebanon is at least the size of, if not bigger than, Israel itself.

Riiight. Israel wants peace. That's why it has illegal settlements in the West Bank. Perfect tactic for peace.

International pressure. Diplomacy. Force. Just what has been used against the Palestinian Arabs in the past 90 years.

Then if they resist, you would certainly support their right to do so? Since I'm sure you support the Palestinian right to do so

I think Israel has a complete right to exist, because what people fail to realize is that the Palestinians are the ones starting all this terrorism because they want the land and the Israelis have all along wanted to share the land with the Palestinians and make peace with them, and their "terrorist" attacks on Palestinians are only for the self-defense of Israel.
.

...which is why they are building civillian settlements amongst Palestinians on Palestinian land outside Israels borders. Makes perfect sense to me.


If you're a Jew or Christian who believes in the Old Testament (Torah),
.

...but I'm not. Its a bunch of folktales. And thats being diplomatic.


And if you're gonna say, Well what about the recent Hezbollah War, I could respond by saying that that was not even a real war, because 1. Hezbollah used extremely unfair war tactics, such as shielding themselves behind inncoent Lebanese people, and making it difficult for the Israeli army to attack Hezbollah without killing innocent Lebanese people, and 2. Lebanon on maps during the war was always depicted as a tiny little country compared to Israel, but in actuality, they show you only part of Lebanon. The real Lebanon is at least the size of, if not bigger than, Israel itself.

So you believe the IDF and also suspect cartographic hi-jinks....

So you believe the IDF and also suspect cartographic hi-jinks....

LOL I love that! you rock!

No. They are the sons and daughters of invaders, and they continue the invasion and even extend it, thus they share the guilt of displacing Arabs.
And the Jews were already somewhere, they did not need to go somewhere else, let alone have their own state at the expense of others.


So, because their ancestors moved there from somewhere else, they have no right to the land of their birth.

Sorry, but that's the biggest load of crap I've heard spouted yet. Except, maybe, your outright lie about them "invading" anything - since everything the Israeli state has taken since the war of independence has been used to attack THEM.

Over and over I hear this lie repeated, that the Israelis "invaded" Gaza, that they "invaded" the Golan Heights, and it's ALL SO MUCH BULLSHIT. ALL of those areas were occupied after the inhabitants attacked Israel WITH THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF GENOCIDE. Occupation of those areas was clearly their right - hell, they've actually been very reasonable, returning the Sinai and allowing Plaestinian self-rule. They had no particular need to do either.

Oh, and while the Jews were "somewhere", as you put it, they were hardly in a stable position in most of it. They pushed, as an ethnic minority, for a homeland, and Britain granted them one - which, under the provisions of the mandate, they had every right and power to do.

The only invasion was in the heads of a bunch of Arab xenophobes. And, apparently, you.

And what about justice? Why the fuck did the Palestinian Arabs have to give up some of their land? If the West likes the Jews so much, why did they not get Wales or half of Pennsylvania? Or one of the German states? For what needed the Palestinian Arabs to be punished? They wanted to live in peace on the soil of their fathers. That's all. And they deserved that after they were free of Turkish rule. Why do they have to suffer a Jewish state imposed on them by foreigners? WHY? Just tell me!

These are interesting questions for historians to consider. But, no one can turn back the clock. Wishing we could, as you do, is a waste of time. "Justice" cannot be gained by attempting to restore exactly some previous situation, specifically, right in the middle of a war between the end of ottoman rule and the begining of the british mandate, as you suggest (in which, by the way, arabs lacked self-governance and power even more than they do now). Doing so would simply cause injustice towards a whole slew of other people - namely, six million or so Israeli citizens, many of which have no other place to go, having come to Israel as refugees from arab lands or genocidal european ones.

You insist on looking back to achieve "justice". Again, I point to the hypocracy of doing so in the case of Israel and not in the case of every other western state that was founded by wars and mass migration. But more important than the hypocracy, is the utter futility of such an outlook. Justice now must take the form of self-determination as two seperate nationstates for the two peoples. A two-state solution of some sort is both feasable and acceptable to most Israelis and most palestinians. All YOU have suggested is placing 6 million jews on trains and taking them away.

Yes, but they are also a large part of the problem, be they secular, or religous, fanatical or otherwise. I believe there are less than 500 in Hebron, yet the security required to protect them numbers in the thousands.I agree with you, as I clearly stated. I simply object to the demonization of some stereotypical settler persona, which is what the previous poster was doing.

Over and over I hear this lie repeated, that the Israelis "invaded" Gaza, that they "invaded" the Golan Heights, and it's ALL SO MUCH BULLSHIT. ALL of those areas were occupied after the inhabitants attacked Israel WITH THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF GENOCIDE. .


A supposition based on a few loose statements made in a region known (obviously) for its biblical rhetoric. Yet when asked for plans and details before you provided none. Not a jot. Yet we could go into great detail of other facets of that war. But for some strange reason, which entirely escapes me, no plan concerning "genocide" has emerged.


Occupation of those areas was clearly their right - hell, they've actually been very reasonable, returning the Sinai and allowing Plaestinian self-rule. They had no particular need to do either..

"Obviously" eh? "Clearly"? Is that an Aprils fools type statement? They had no long term business in either.

You might explaing to me how allowing and encouraging settlers is "very reasonable".

"allowing Palestinian self rule" is amusing as well. They may well allow it, but its what should happen, not an indication of some noble spirit on their behalf.

And given the constraints and hindrances placed upon any Palestinian authority, its more like the difference between rules at an "open" prison and a high security installation.

I think Israel has a complete right to exist, because what people fail to realize is that the Palestinians are the ones starting all this terrorism because they want the land and the Israelis have all along wanted to share the land with the Palestinians and make peace with them, and their "terrorist" attacks on Palestinians are only for the self-defense of Israel. If you're a Jew or Christian who believes in the Old Testament (Torah), they could tell you that G-d gave Israel to the Jewish people and that Israel is the Jewish people's land. What other people may also be forgetting is the countless wars that Israelis have won against the Palestinians (Independence War, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War), so obviously this should be telling people something. And if you're gonna say, Well what about the recent Hezbollah War, I could respond by saying that that was not even a real war, because 1. Hezbollah used extremely unfair war tactics, such as shielding themselves behind inncoent Lebanese people, and making it difficult for the Israeli army to attack Hezbollah without killing innocent Lebanese people, and 2. Lebanon on maps during the war was always depicted as a tiny little country compared to Israel, but in actuality, they show you only part of Lebanon. The real Lebanon is at least the size of, if not bigger than, Israel itself.
Jews have started the terrorism. Cut the crap. They set up militias to cleanse Galilee and northern Samaria of its Arab population in 1946 or even earlier.

- “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
- “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

Jews have started the terrorism. Cut the crap. They set up militias to cleanse Galilee and northern Samaria of its Arab population in 1946 or even earlier.


The problem with you, bucko, is not only what you say, but the way that you say it. If you can't get over the whole "Jew" thing, I suggest fucking off to somewhere where you can rant about them to your hearts content.

Jews have started the terrorism. Cut the crap. They set up militias to cleanse Galilee and northern Samaria of its Arab population in 1946 or even earlier.
You should provide sources for your quotations.
Before Israel's creation there was a great deal of sectarian violence between arabs and Jews. There was also a great deal of cooperation between neighboring towns and villages, and this is well-remembered.
The jewish militias were to get the british out, and protect isolated young towns, not to "cleanse" anything. In fact, many of the Jewish militias modeled their culture after arab warriers and farmers. The gallilee and northern sumaria today is in no way "cleansed" of arabs. The people that left did so in 48 because of the war, not before

These are interesting questions for historians to consider. But, no one can turn back the clock. Wishing we could, as you do, is a waste of time. "Justice" cannot be gained by attempting to restore exactly some previous situation, specifically, right in the middle of a war between the end of ottoman rule and the begining of the british mandate, as you suggest (in which, by the way, arabs lacked self-governance and power even more than they do now). Doing so would simply cause injustice towards a whole slew of other people - namely, six million or so Israeli citizens, many of which have no other place to go, having come to Israel as refugees from arab lands or genocidal european ones. Which have no other place to go? But they did go to another place, namely Palestine, to supplant its Arab population. And they did so because of ideological reasons. If it had been only about their survival, they could have gone somewhere else, as they were indeed offered. But the willfully chose their destination on grounds of religion and its racist interpretations. They weren't just refugees, they came to Palestine with a fixed goal.

You insist on looking back to achieve "justice". Again, I point to the hypocracy of doing so in the case of Israel and not in the case of every other western state that was founded by wars and mass migration. But more important than the hypocracy, is the utter futility of such an outlook. Justice now must take the form of self-determination as two seperate nationstates for the two peoples. A two-state solution of some sort is both feasable and acceptable to most Israelis and most palestinians. All YOU have suggested is placing 6 million jews on trains and taking them away.You are forgetting that there is no self-determination for Palestinians, and the Jews have never allowed anything like that, nor will they ever allow anything. And don't tell me you count the "government" they have as any sign of sovereignty. The Jews are expanding their settlements in the West Bank and they continue the construction of the Wall (a real wailing wall) to turn Samaria into a detention camp and to annex more land. Stop pretending Israelis were pursuing any deal or compromise or peace. So what kind of two-state solution are you talking about? And in which borders? Show me what borders on a map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank (use the lower map and put into it the borders you suggest)

The problem with you, bucko, is not only what you say, but the way that you say it. If you can't get over the whole "Jew" thing, I suggest fucking off to somewhere where you can rant about them to your hearts content.
What am I supposed to call them? Israelis? But it weren't Israelis who came to Palestine to take the half of it. It were Jews. Are you afraid of the word?

What am I supposed to call them? Israelis? But it weren't Israelis who came to Palestine to take the half of it. It were Jews. Are you afraid of the word?


"settlers", "zionists" etc. And no, I'm not afraid of the word. I just use it where appropriate. It seems to be the first thing that comes into your head though,to be put at the start of most of your inaccurate and embarrasing statements.

I think Israel has a complete right to exist, because what people fail to realize is that the Palestinians are the ones starting all this terrorism because they want the land and the Israelis have all along wanted to share the land with the Palestinians and make peace with them, and their "terrorist" attacks on Palestinians are only for the self-defense of Israel. If you're a Jew or Christian who believes in the Old Testament (Torah), they could tell you that G-d gave Israel to the Jewish people and that Israel is the Jewish people's land. What other people may also be forgetting is the countless wars that Israelis have won against the Palestinians (Independence War, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War), so obviously this should be telling people something. And if you're gonna say, Well what about the recent Hezbollah War, I could respond by saying that that was not even a real war, because 1. Hezbollah used extremely unfair war tactics, such as shielding themselves behind inncoent Lebanese people, and making it difficult for the Israeli army to attack Hezbollah without killing innocent Lebanese people, and 2. Lebanon on maps during the war was always depicted as a tiny little country compared to Israel, but in actuality, they show you only part of Lebanon. The real Lebanon is at least the size of, if not bigger than, Israel itself.

You're funny.:D

If I "found" a religious appendage to the bible that said I was automatically king of the world, would you believe that?

So, because their ancestors moved there from somewhere else, they have no right to the land of their birth.

Sorry, but that's the biggest load of crap I've heard spouted yet. Except, maybe, your outright lie about them "invading" anything - since everything the Israeli state has taken since the war of independence has been used to attack THEM.

Over and over I hear this lie repeated, that the Israelis "invaded" Gaza, that they "invaded" the Golan Heights, and it's ALL SO MUCH BULLSHIT. ALL of those areas were occupied after the inhabitants attacked Israel WITH THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF GENOCIDE. Occupation of those areas was clearly their right - hell, they've actually been very reasonable, returning the Sinai and allowing Plaestinian self-rule. They had no particular need to do either.

Oh, and while the Jews were "somewhere", as you put it, they were hardly in a stable position in most of it. They pushed, as an ethnic minority, for a homeland, and Britain granted them one - which, under the provisions of the mandate, they had every right and power to do.

The only invasion was in the heads of a bunch of Arab xenophobes. And, apparently, you.


in·vade
1. to enter forcefully as an enemy; go into with hostile intent: Germany invaded Poland in 1939.
2. to enter like an enemy: Locusts invaded the fields.
3. to enter as if to take possession: to invade a neighbor's home.

They did invade those places. You can argue those invasions were justified or that the war was already in progress when they invaded etc etc. But whatever the reasons etc for them they were definably invasions. Just like the Allies invaded France in Operation Overlord. They had very justifiable reasons for doing so, but it was still an invasion.

- “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
- “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

No matter how many times you say this, the quotes are still false.

No matter how many times you say this, the quotes are still false.

And no matter how many times I post links proving UB's quotes are full of shit, he will still keep using them.

No matter how many times you say this, the quotes are still false.

Because your trollish friend IDF says so? The 'evidence' IDF used to 'prove' the quotes were false trails back to pro-Israel websites. Please go and read your favourite website, the Jewish Virtual Dictionary.

Also, what's with all this using the Bible to justify Israel's existance, you all sound like Pat Robertson clones.

Because your trollish friend IDF says so? The 'evidence' IDF used to 'prove' the quotes were false trails back to pro-Israel websites. Please go and read your favourite website, the Jewish Virtual Dictionary.

Also, what's with all this using the Bible to justify Israel's existance, you all sound like Pat Robertson clones.

Do you have anything usefull to say Adolf? Why don't you go put on your swastika armband and run along?

I have posted proof those quotes are bull. You haven't posted proof to the contrary because it doesn't exist.

as far as i'm concerned israel has as much right to exist as any other state. that is, none at all.

Yeah.

Wait.

No.

The concept of "transferring" European Jews to Palestine and "transferring" the Palestinian people out is central to Zionism. Ben-Gurion, the 1st Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated this essential Zionist pillar, he stated in 1944:

"Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the [Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve their condition and not the contrary." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 159)

When a "Jewish majority" was impossible to achieve based on Jewish immigration and natural growth, Zionists had concluded that forcible "population transfer" (Ethnic Cleansing) was the only solution to what they referred to as the "Arab Problem." To excuse the "Jewish state" from any WAR CRIMES perpetrated against the Palestinian people (specially the ones committed during the 1948 war), Zionists have concocted a myth that the Palestinian people had willingly left their homes, farms, and businesses, and as a result they have forfeited their right to return.

Because your trollish friend IDF says so? The 'evidence' IDF used to 'prove' the quotes were false trails back to pro-Israel websites. Please go and read your favourite website, the Jewish Virtual Dictionary.

Also, what's with all this using the Bible to justify Israel's existance, you all sound like Pat Robertson clones.

I'm Agnostic, I'm not about to use the Bible to justify the existence of grass, but I will use common sense and say that, regardless of how anyone feels about it, Israel isn't likely to disappear. Barring a genocidal war that Israel loses(unlikely), the country is there to stay. It doesn't much matter anymore the circumstances of it's creation.

The best the Arab world can hope for at this point is the creation of a Palestinian state along the borders originally set. But this also is unlikely since it will never get support from other Arab nations since the Israelis make such a good diversion whenever dissidents complain about their governments.

It'd just be nice if the issue wasn't simplified to "Evil Jews vs. Crazy Terrorists" like it is so often here. There are a lot of factors to each side other than simple bickering over land.

Israel, should it exist?

Israel, when did it ever exist? :D If Israel doesn't appease its immediate Muslim neighbors then it's done for, regardless of American support. Israel sees how America is bogged down in Iraq not against great armies or tanks but local militias. Israel sees the ever growing Iran and its long reach by its humiliating defeat in Lebanon, not by Lebanese armies but Iranian backed Lebanese militias (Hezbollah). Israel sees other regional nations emerging and they aren't as quick to support Israel as America did. The world is changing, and if Israel wants to exist, it better change its attitude against the Palestinians or it will be like the many thousands of nations that have come and gone in the Middle Eastern sands.

A supposition based on a few loose statements made in a region known (obviously) for its biblical rhetoric. Yet when asked for plans and details before you provided none. Not a jot. Yet we could go into great detail of other facets of that war. But for some strange reason, which entirely escapes me, no plan concerning "genocide" has emerged.

I know of no plans or details. So what? It's an irrelevant question. There weren't any "plans and details" in Rwanda either, but there's no doubt about the genocidal intent.

Rhetoricism is also utterly irrelevant. If someone says "I will kill you" I don't give a damn if he's being rhetorical - I'm going to do everything in my power to stop him. If the Arabs said - as they did - that they were going to exterminate Israel, then I will damn well take them at their word. To do otherwise would be incredibly stupid.


You might explaing to me how allowing and encouraging settlers is "very reasonable".

It isn't. And please stop using side issues as strawmen. I have never supported the settler situation.

Which doesn't change the fact that Israel HAS been very reasonable about the land they've taken.


"allowing Palestinian self rule" is amusing as well. They may well allow it, but its what should happen, not an indication of some noble spirit on their behalf.


"Should" and a buck fifty might get you a cup of coffee.

In a lot of ways, it would be in Israel's best interests to keep the Palestinians leaderless and weak. In going against their national interest, Israel has shown compassion and a willingness to negotiate. "Noble", no. "Human", I think so.


And given the constraints and hindrances placed upon any Palestinian authority, its more like the difference between rules at an "open" prison and a high security installation.

{BANG!} There goes another school bus...

The concept of "transferring" European Jews to Palestine and "transferring" the Palestinian people out is central to Zionism. Ben-Gurion, the 1st Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated this essential Zionist pillar, he stated in 1944:

"Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the [Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve their condition and not the contrary." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 159)

When a "Jewish majority" was impossible to achieve based on Jewish immigration and natural growth, Zionists had concluded that forcible "population transfer" (Ethnic Cleansing) was the only solution to what they referred to as the "Arab Problem." To excuse the "Jewish state" from any WAR CRIMES perpetrated against the Palestinian people (specially the ones committed during the 1948 war), Zionists have concocted a myth that the Palestinian people had willingly left their homes, farms, and businesses, and as a result they have forfeited their right to return.Darth Ben-Gurion was a complete butthole. But Westerners always just see the Jewish interests.

No matter how many times you say this, the quotes are still false.


The second quote is true, as far as I'm aware. From 1937 in repsponse to the report of the peel commission.

"We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal."

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." – (David Ben-Gurion, May 1948. From Ben-Gurion, a Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar)

"The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers..heads smashed against the boulders & walls." - Isreali PM Shamir- speech to Jewish settlers- NY Times 4/1/1988

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91b3-X-wgJU
Mind what the interviewed Israeli has to say

Isreal DOES exist, so your question is moot

Israel exists. There ain't no way to change that that is fair on those descendants of the original refugees and settlers. The fact that it is not fair on those people who are still alive and who were basically shafted is regrettable, and they should probably be reparated in some way for their loss.

However, the question asks not whether Israel exists or whether it is practical to dissolve it, but rather whether it should exist. To me, this asks whether or not the nation should have been created in the first place. And to that, I answer no.

Just like I would not expect a homeless indigenous person to take my home, because of an "ancestral" right to it, there was no viable or fair reason to take the land belonging to the Palestinians and hand it to the Jews. The Palestinians were punished to alleviate the collective world guilt about the Holocaust.

Israel exists. There ain't no way to change that that is fair on those descendants of the original refugees and settlers. The fact that it is not fair on those people who are still alive and who were basically shafted is regrettable, and they should probably be reparated in some way for their loss.

However, the question asks not whether Israel exists or whether it is practical to dissolve it, but rather whether it should exist. To me, this asks whether or not the nation should have been created in the first place. And to that, I answer no.

Just like I would not expect a homeless indigenous person to take my home, because of an "ancestral" right to it, there was no viable or fair reason to take the land belonging to the Palestinians and hand it to the Jews. The Palestinians were punished to alleviate the collective world guilt about the Holocaust.

you use the word regrettable with such ease
however, your last sentence is the essence of Israel's existence

The Palestinians were punished to alleviate the collective world guilt about the Holocaust.yeah.. and they are still being punished.

you use the word regrettable with such ease
however, your last sentence is the essence of Israel's existence

I don't know of a better way to say it. Regrettable is probably a weaker adjective than the situation deserves.

I don't think that Israel should have been created in the first place but it's there. The reality must be dealt with, not pointless posturing and impractical plans to remove the Israelis from the lands. However, I do think the 1967 borders should be reestablished and all settlers removed. I also think that a clause in the constitution like that of Lebanon's should exist to ensure that Palestinians and Arabs in Israel have an equal say in the running of the country. I also believe firmly in the right of a Palestinian nation. We went to the aid of East Timor when they wanted independence. It is the height of hypocracy to go to the aid of one fledgling nation seeking independence and aid in the oppression of self-determination of another.

yeah.. and they are still being punished.

I know. I make poor word choices occasionally.

I know. I make poor word choices occasionally.???

I think your post is well written..
My comment was superficial.

Israel, when did it ever exist? :D If Israel doesn't appease its immediate Muslim neighbors then it's done for, regardless of American support. Israel sees how America is bogged down in Iraq not against great armies or tanks but local militias. Israel sees the ever growing Iran and its long reach by its humiliating defeat in Lebanon, not by Lebanese armies but Iranian backed Lebanese militias (Hezbollah). Israel sees other regional nations emerging and they aren't as quick to support Israel as America did. The world is changing, and if Israel wants to exist, it better change its attitude against the Palestinians or it will be like the many thousands of nations that have come and gone in the Middle Eastern sands.
If Israel is ever on the verge of the destruction, I suspect they'd shrug their soldiers and decide to take the whole damn Middle East with 'em...

FFS. Only an Israel topic gets 300 posts from a four-word OP.

???

I think your post is well written..
My comment was superficial.

well then, thank you. :fluffle:

I know of no plans or details. So what? It's an irrelevant question. There weren't any "plans and details" in Rwanda either, but there's no doubt about the genocidal intent....


Au contraire.....
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/rwanda/Geno1-3-02.htm#P29_10436

It isn't. And please stop using side issues as strawmen. I have never supported the settler situation.

Which doesn't change the fact that Israel HAS been very reasonable about the land they've taken.

Getting a bit contradictory there aren't we? As Israel is responsible for the "settler situation" then it can hardly been deemed to be "very reasonable" can it?



{BANG!} There goes another school bus...

O NOES!!1111!!! - TEHY ARE TEH EBBILL!!!!


....and if we add all the school bus loads together, they still don't add up to the number of Arab children killed or anything close. And while that doesnt make it right, getting a response in kind can be said - as you put it - to be only "human".

If Israel is ever on the verge of the destruction, I suspect they'd shrug their soldiers and decide to take the whole damn Middle East with 'em...Masada-Syndrome?

FFS. Only an Israel topic gets 300 posts from a four-word OP.You know Israel. It's the symbol and focus point of the clash of civilizations West against Arab-world.

Masada-Syndrome?

You know Israel. It's the symbol and focus point of the clash of civilizations West against Arab-world.
Meh, why not? They'd have nothing to lose. I suspect that if any state with nuclear weapons was on the verge of total destruction, they'd think 'screw it' and fire them all off.

Meh, why not? They'd have nothing to lose. I suspect that if any state with nuclear weapons was on the verge of total destruction, they'd think 'screw it' and fire them all off.And yet they claim to be soooo civilized.

And yet they claim to be soooo civilized.

Meh, why not? They'd have nothing to lose. I suspect that if any state with nuclear weapons was on the verge of total destruction, they'd think 'screw it' and fire them all off.
QFE.

QFE.I rather think that any other state would finally give in and save its population.

---
Somehow, this whole modern Israel thing is the last chapter in the story that has been told in Kings and Chronicles. Yehuda supplanting Israel.

I rather think that any other state would finally give in and save its population.
I doubt the Israelis would be treated particularly well by their neighbours...

I doubt the Israelis would be treated particularly well by their neighbours...You never know... I suppose it would depend on the Israeli's overall conduct. I mean, if Israel were finally to offer real conditions for peace and for the survival of the Palestinian Arabs, the other side would definitely accept them. But what we see on the ground is not very promising in that regard. Real conditions would be to withdraw the settlers from the West Bank, end the military occupation there, revert to the Green Line as the borders of Israel, tear down the Wall, and give full sovereignty to the Palestinians. And of course the question of the Palestinian refugees must be solved, e.g. by full compensation for their loss of home.
But as long as Israel does not want that, it can all go straight to hell.

You never know... I suppose it would depend on the Israeli's overall conduct. I mean, if Israel were finally to offer real conditions for peace and for the survival of the Palestinian Arabs, the other side would definitely accept them. But what we see on the ground is not very promising in that regard. Real conditions would be to withdraw the settlers from the West Bank, end the military occupation there, revert to the Green Line as the borders of Israel, tear down the Wall, and give full sovereignty to the Palestinians.
Well, in this hypothetical scenario if it's gone so far they've been invaded and are about to be destroyed, chances are that their conduct hasn't been stellar, so that's mostly moot, I suppose.

To go off on a completely random tangent, I don't support Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, and they should have their own state. If it requires Israel to be invaded or dissolved (although it shouldn't), however, then it's not worth it. Israel is the only state in the Middle East that's actually a liberal democracy. Unfortunately there are far too few free nations in the world that we can go around destroying them. Israeli statehood is more important than Palestinian statehood just because of pragmatism. IMO it's like West Berlin during the Cold War- although I can't support the abuse of Palestinian rights, I can't support letting a democracy surrounded by totalitarian states be dissolved either.

I don't support Israel's treatment of the PalestiniansYou support Israel. There is no other Israel than that one. So how can you possibly separate your support for Israel where and how it is from support of its conduct? Israel was made for creating a state in an already populated area, so what other behavior would you expect?

Israeli statehood is more important than Palestinian statehood just because of pragmatism.You must be insane.

IMO it's like West Berlin during the Cold War-Yes, you are insane. West Berlin wasn't created artificially to forcibly create a state for a religious and alleged ethnic group. Nor was it a beacon of corruption and racism against the surrounding state(s).

although I can't support the abuse of Palestinian rights, I can't support letting a democracy surrounded by totalitarian states be dissolved either.depends on what kinds of governments are elected by the "democracy"

You must be insane.

Yes, you are insane. West Berlin wasn't created artificially to forcibly create a state for a religious and alleged ethnic group. Nor was it a beacon of corruption and racism against the surrounding state(s).

depends on what kinds of governments are elected by the "democracy"
West Berlin was essentially created artificially, though.

Nooo, it's not like Israel is less corrupt or racist than its Middle Eastern neighbours at all. They're ranked 34th out of 165 states (http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2006/cpi_2006__1/cpi_table) for corruption. Okay, the UAE and Qatar are just slightly ahead of them, but come on, the other Middle Eastern countries are not shining beacons of honesty. Israel is hardly more corrupt. Israel has Arab MPs and grants Arabs equal rights, unlike, say, um, Saudi Arabia, which has banned Judaism and other religions...

Well... the Palestinians elected a terrorist group to govern them...

West Berlin was essentially created artificially, though.Oh yes, it was implanted by outside forces...

Nooo, it's not like Israel is less corrupt or racist than its Middle Eastern neighbours at all. They're ranked 34th out of 165 states (http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2006/cpi_2006__1/cpi_table) for corruption. Okay, the UAE and Qatar are just slightly ahead of them, but come on, the other Middle Eastern countries are not shining beacons of honesty. Israel is hardly more corrupt. Israel has Arab MPs and grants Arabs equal rights, unlike, say, um, Saudi Arabia, which has banned Judaism and other religions...so according to you israel is as corrupt as its neighbors, yet you chose to support it over its neighbors?

Well... the Palestinians elected a terrorist group to govern them...as a reaction to Israeli policies prior to the election, iirr.
and israelis elected netanyahu, barak, and sharon. that's just as good as a terrorist group, especially netanyahu

You support Israel. There is no other Israel than that one.
I support my own land, Britain in many ways. I don't support the handling of various ridiculous wars around the world. Nor do I support ID cards, or how Northern Ireland is being dealt with, nor even increasingly tighter laws.

That doesn't really preclude it at all - and nor does this for some people with Israel.

They probably support Israel because it's probably the most westernised country in the area, along with Lebanon, which the US also supports, and for them, a land which is similar to the US in a few ways, although more militant, is a good thing.

I don't support that view myself. Normally, I would lean towards the Palestinians - on the other hand, after looking at the full history of the event, it's hard not to feel for the Israelis, too.

Both sides have done utterly ridiculous things in an attempt to gain or keep their own sovereignty, but the fact that they have been willing to fight so hard for it possibly means that all of the sides should get their own land, their own sovereignty, and financial and political backing from people around the world, instead of it being used as the playing field for geopolitical arguments.
Yes, you are insane. West Berlin wasn't created artificially to forcibly create a state for a religious and alleged ethnic group. Nor was it a beacon of corruption and racism against the surrounding state(s).
...

It was almost entirely the same.

It was in the USSR's territory, and was essentially of a different faith (a political ideolody rather than a religion). It was in an already-populated area, and some would say that some things that were done to keep it there were pretty extreme.

I think it best to say that nobody wins the Cuddle Bear for treatment of people of a different inclination in that region. The reason Israel tends to get flack is because some seem to think that the light shines from its posterior.

Oh yes, it was implanted by outside forces...

so according to you israel is as corrupt as its neighbors, yet you chose to support it over its neighbors?

as a reaction to Israeli policies prior to the election, iirr.
and israelis elected netanyahu, barak, and sharon. that's just as good as a terrorist group, especially netanyahu
I see civil rights and standards of living as being more important than corruption. You're the one who said it was a beacon of corruption against its neighbours, which it's obviously not.

Israel has/is (compared to the rest of the MidEast)
- the highest GDP/capita
- highest literacy
- highest Human Development Index
- highest freedom of the press
- the only one that actually has gay rights
- the highest freedoms in general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World)

for starters.

*snip*The US support Lebanon because it has a considerable Christian population.

It was almost entirely the same.

It was in the USSR's territory, and was essentially of a different faith (a political ideolody rather than a religion). It was in an already-populated area, and some would say that some things that were done to keep it there were pretty extreme.What the fuck are you talking about? West Berlin wasn't created in the GDR while it already existed. Berlin was divided into four sectors after the war (as was Vienna, and Germany as a whole), and West Berlin was then the three sectors of the western allies after the Soviets created their puppet state in East Germany. West Berlin wasn't forced on the GDR population.

They did invade those places. You can argue those invasions were justified or that the war was already in progress when they invaded etc etc. But whatever the reasons etc for them they were definably invasions. Just like the Allies invaded France in Operation Overlord. They had very justifiable reasons for doing so, but it was still an invasion.

You have a point (and a good one), but use of language isn't just the dictionary definition.

Invasion conjures up ideas of armored columns and military might, and that's not what the situation was. A better term for what happened in the late forties would be the term colonization.

Oh, and for the record, no I don't support what happened then. But bemoaning events that occurred before I was even born seems pointless.

I see civil rights and standards of living as being more important than corruption. You're the one who said it was a beacon of corruption against its neighbours, which it's obviously not.

Israel has/is (compared to the rest of the MidEast)
- the highest GDP/capita
- highest literacy
- highest Human Development Index
- highest freedom of the press
- the only one that actually has gay rights
- the highest freedoms in general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World)

for starters.
...but not for Palestinians.

You have a point (and a good one), but use of language isn't just the dictionary definition.

Invasion conjures up ideas of armored columns and military might, and that's not what the situation was. A better term for what happened in the late forties would be the term colonization.

Oh, and for the record, no I don't support what happened then. But bemoaning events that occurred before I was even born seems pointless.For other people it's events that occurred after they were born, and which affected their lives and those of their offspring directly. For those still living in refugee camps it is not necessarily pointless.

Au contraire.....
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/rwanda/Geno1-3-02.htm#P29_10436


Thanks for that. Interesting reading.


Getting a bit contradictory there aren't we? As Israel is responsible for the "settler situation" then it can hardly been deemed to be "very reasonable" can it?

Of course it can. Show me any country on earth that doesn't have absurd and self-contradictory policies. Israel has been very reasonable in it's foreign relationships, while undermining those diplomatic efforts domestically.

The US and EU do exactly the same trick regarding farm subsidies.


....and if we add all the school bus loads together, they still don't add up to the number of Arab children killed or anything close. And while that doesnt make it right, getting a response in kind can be said - as you put it - to be only "human".

Actually, I don't believe that's true. The various Palestinian groups have been caught so many times inflating casualty figures and claiming "massacres" where none occured, that I have no idea what sort of numbers we're actually talking about. And please don't bring up Red Cross/Crescent and Amnesty International figures - they, and groups like them, have proven distressingly credulous about casualties that were "reported", but that they never set eyes on.

As to the "response" - who is responding to whom? Israel has accepted cease fires and withdrawn from areas numerous times, only to be forced to reoccupy those areas to stop them being used as staging areas for attacks. Have the Palestinians EVER held to a cease-fire?

For other people it's events that occurred after they were born, and which affected their lives and those of their offspring directly. For those still living in refugee camps it is not necessarily pointless.

Yes, that's true. Just as there are still people who were born before WWI, and whose lives were changed because of it.

I'm not saying we should ignore the fact this happened, or fail to take advantage of lessons learned. But it is done.

"The moving hand writes, and moves on; and all your skill and craft cannot change what has been written."

Instead of weeping for the past, we should seek a better future.

Instead of weeping for the past, we should seek a better future.That's impossible if the cause for the weeping is still around, and the wounds of the past cannot be healed.

...but not for Palestinians.
To put it simplistically, the Palestinian governing body abuses both Palestinians and Israelis whilst the Israeli government only abuses Palestinians.

To put it simplistically, the Palestinian governing body abuses both Palestinians and Israelis whilst the Israeli government only abuses Palestinians.you can be so proud of Israel then...
and it seems you are

you can be so proud of Israel then...
and it seems you are
Whereas the Palestinian Authority can do whatever the hell they like to both their own people and Israeli civilians and it's all right because of the evil Israeli occupation?

Note again that almost every government in the Middle East abuses its citizens' basic rights, except for Israel.

Come to think of it, I find it strange that you who has a particular amount of vitriol against religion would support a theocracy over a secular state...

That's impossible if the cause for the weeping is still around, and the wounds of the past cannot be healed.

But I cannot accept that this is the case in this instance.

If people are still living in refugee camps after fifty years, it is because they choose to be there. There are no guards and fences - they could leave, and get on with their lives elsewhere.

A bunch of people got displaced fifty years ago. Nobody disputes that, and I don't think anyone sane disagrees that it was an injustice. But if you're sitting around bewailing that after that long, what you really need is a slap upside the head and somebody to say "get over it already!"

The only way the wounds of the past don't heal is if you don't let them.

Whereas the Palestinian Authority can do whatever the hell they like to both their own people and Israeli civilians and it's all right because of the evil Israeli occupation?What are they doing to Israeli civilians? Occupy their home land?

Note again that almost every government in the Middle East abuses its citizens' basic rights, except for Israel.And that justifies the occupation or the creation of Israel in the first place? And who exactly are Israel's citizens whose basic rights are not abused? Jewish settlers in the West Bank are Jewish citizens while the Palestinians there are not, right? And Arabs in Israel are not being discriminated against in any way?

But I cannot accept that this is the case in this instance.

If people are still living in refugee camps after fifty years, it is because they choose to be there. There are no guards and fences - they could leave, and get on with their lives elsewhere.

A bunch of people got displaced fifty years ago. Nobody disputes that, and I don't think anyone sane disagrees that it was an injustice. But if you're sitting around bewailing that after that long, what you really need is a slap upside the head and somebody to say "get over it already!"

The only way the wounds of the past don't heal is if you don't let them.You have no idea of home, do you? And why the fuck should they accept the injustice done to them? Just admit defeat? They are stateless and they have no means to go anywhere.
Get over it? Yes, that's the self-righteous arrogance of the victorious...

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." – (David Ben-Gurion, May 1948. From Ben-Gurion, a Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar)

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=775
And this link debunks the quote

What are they doing to Israeli civilians? Occupy their home land?

And that justifies the occupation or the creation of Israel in the first place? And who exactly are Israel's citizens whose basic rights are not abused? Jewish settlers in the West Bank are Jewish citizens while the Palestinians there are not, right? And Arabs in Israel are not being discriminated against in any way?
Hmm, I don't know... does the phrase 'suicide bomber' mean anything to you?

Most of Israel's citizens rights are not abused- freedom of speech etc. Arabs in Israel aren't really discriminated against, I suspect they get the short end of the stick but minorities do in every single country in the world.

I'll repeat this for the umpteenth time. It is TOO LATE TO STOP ISRAEL FROM BEING CREATED. Israel is there already, and now Israelis have just as much right to be there as Palestinians, even if they did not when the state was established. Plenty of Israelis have been there for their whole lives, which is just as long as any Palestinian has been there. :p Unless you have a mind to wreck the Middle East for decades, you're not going to get rid of Israel.

What are they doing to Israeli civilians? Occupy their home land?

And that justifies the occupation or the creation of Israel in the first place? And who exactly are Israel's citizens whose basic rights are not abused? Jewish settlers in the West Bank are Jewish citizens while the Palestinians there are not, right? And Arabs in Israel are not being discriminated against in any way?

Actually, my understanding is that Arab (and other Muslim) citizens of Israel are treated pretty well. They face some social bigotry (as do Christians, I understand), but no official persecution.

Hmm, I don't know... does the phrase 'suicide bomber' mean anything to you?

Most of Israel's citizens rights are not abused- freedom of speech etc. Arabs in Israel aren't really discriminated against, I suspect they get the short end of the stick but minorities do in every single country in the world.

Arabs in Israel have more rights than they do in pretty much any other Arab nation. In Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Palestinian Territories, they wouldn't be allowed to enter into a homosexual relationship, protest, practice a religion different from the majority population, make anti-government statements on a forum such as this, etc.

Arabs in Israel have more rights than they do in pretty much any other Arab nation. In Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Palestinian Territories, they wouldn't be allowed to enter into a homosexual relationship, protest, practice a religion different from the majority population, make anti-government statements on a forum such as this, etc.
Agreed.

You have no idea of home, do you? And why the fuck should they accept the injustice done to them? Just admit defeat? They are stateless and they have no means to go anywhere.
Get over it? Yes, that's the self-righteous arrogance of the victorious...

Actually, my sense of "Home" probably isn't as strong as some peoples, as I moved around a lot as a kid. Which is probably why I've got no problem living in Oz while retaining my US Citizenship.

That said, if I lost my home and possessions, I'd be pretty damn pissed. And I'd do what I could to get back what was mine.

However, I would NOT waste my life butting my head against a brick wall for half a century. Frankly, that's just stupid.

As for "They are stateless and they have no means to go anywhere.", well, what a load of bollocks. They have an open invitation to go to Jordan (which is mostly Palestinian anyway), an easy trip to Lebanon or Syria, and from any of those countries they could go anywhere they liked, or just rebuild their lives there. It wouldn't necessarily be easy, but whose lives are in that region?

And yes, GET OVER IT. The simple fact is that in four wars, Israel is 4-0. It's not going anywhere. Live with it, or keep on failing.

I see civil rights and standards of living as being more important than corruption. You're the one who said it was a beacon of corruption against its neighbours, which it's obviously not.

Israel has/is (compared to the rest of the MidEast)
- the highest GDP/capita
- highest literacy
- highest Human Development Index
- highest freedom of the press
- the only one that actually has gay rights
- the highest freedoms in general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World)

for starters.

Consdiering that the IDF have right of veto on "security related" media reports, thats not exactly saying much for media freedom in the middle east. And whilst Israel is occupying the territories, leaving out what happens in them is rather dishonest.

Of course it can. Show me any country on earth that doesn't have absurd and self-contradictory policies. Israel has been very reasonable in it's foreign relationships, while undermining those diplomatic efforts domestically.
.

Well for starters the territories are not part of Israel, and its foriegn relations are defined largely by them. You seem loathe to face up to Israels role in its own status.


Actually, I don't believe that's true. .

Of course not. It helps you sleep better. You seem to have no problem swallowing the official Israeli line, however.

I suppose you think Amnesty, the Red Cross and HRW etc are all "in it together"....


If people are still living in refugee camps after fifty years, it is because they choose to be there. There are no guards and fences - they could leave, and get on with their lives elsewhere..

Yeah, they should just leave the West Bank like they left whats now Israel....seeing the IDF wave them off and settlers arrive to take over the land...Perhaps somebody should be given a slap around the head and told "Enough already".


They face some social bigotry (as do Christians, I understand), but no official persecution...

Unless it comes to funding for education etc, or - notoriously - land issues. I suggest you read up on the Bedouin in the Negev as well.

However, I would NOT waste my life butting my head against a brick wall for half a century. Frankly, that's just stupid.
.

Yep. Like the Poles, Ukranians, Irish, Vietnamese, Americans. Stupid little people wanting to govern themselves. Sheer madness.

Well for starters the territories are not part of Israel, and its foriegn relations are defined largely by them. You seem loathe to face up to Israels role in its own status.

Israel has been at least as responsible as the Palestinians for the current situation. I merely object to the "Blame Israel for everything" aspect that UB and a few others have been promoting.



Of course not. It helps you sleep better. You seem to have no problem swallowing the official Israeli line, however.

Israel has a free press, allows international observation (and world press presence), and an official registry of deaths. This makes their estimates of casualties far more reliable than the Palestinians.


I suppose you think Amnesty, the Red Cross and HRW etc are all "in it together"....

"I suppose you eat babies for breakfast too".

Don't put words in my mouth. I said those organizations are credulous, that is all. They tend to accept claims without properly investigating them.

Though, that said, I understand the Red Cross is getting better at this sort of thing.

Yep. Like the Poles, Ukranians, Irish, Vietnamese, Americans. Stupid little people wanting to govern themselves. Sheer madness.

Nice misapplication of history, there. None of those peoples drove themselves to penury and failed to provide for their families to protest their situations. They got on with their lives and awaited the opportunity to regain what was taken from their ancestors; they rebuilt and regained their wealth even as they fought against their oppressors.

Why don't I see the same in Palestine?

Israel, should it exist?

Trolls, should they be fed?

Israel has a free press, allows international observation (and world press presence), and an official registry of deaths. This makes their estimates of casualties far more reliable than the Palestinians.

It has a relatively free press, allows international observers when it suits and likewise with the press presence.

Are you saying that Israel has no agenda and thus can be believed while the Palestinians can't?


I said those organizations are credulous, that is all..

According to you. And the Israelis.

Nice misapplication of history, there. None of those peoples drove themselves to penury and failed to provide for their families to protest their situations. They got on with their lives and awaited the opportunity to regain what was taken from their ancestors; they rebuilt and regained their wealth even as they fought against their oppressors.


Yet about 90% of the Irish population refused to change religon and swear allegiance to the Queen, thus barring themselves from the proffessions, education, and damning the most of them to landless semi-serfdom for three hundred years......

Actually, my understanding is that Arab (and other Muslim) citizens of Israel are treated pretty well. They face some social bigotry (as do Christians, I understand), but no official persecution.

Except that they had their land taken from them by foreigners. They are forced to live in a minority in a land of immigrants who weren't there 50 years ago for the most part. Without getting a choice in whether they wanted to give up that land. How is that not persecution?

Yep. Like the Poles, Ukranians, Irish, Vietnamese, Americans. Stupid little people wanting to govern themselves. Sheer madness.

We went to the aid of East Timor when they wanted independence. It is the height of hypocracy to go to the aid of one fledgling nation seeking independence and aid in the oppression of self-determination of another.

I didn't have your examples.

It has a relatively free press, allows international observers when it suits and likewise with the press presence.

Are you saying that Israel has no agenda and thus can be believed while the Palestinians can't?

No, but they can't outright lie and be believed by credulous international bodies and press. They have to be reasonably accurate or they'll be caught out - and they know this.


According to you. And the Israelis.


And the facts. The Palestinians have been caught inflating casualty figures, making claims of massacres where there were none - but the International Agencies just lap up their statements and investigate nothing.


Yet about 90% of the Irish population refused to change religon and swear allegiance to the Queen, thus barring themselves from the proffessions, education, and damning the most of them to landless semi-serfdom for three hundred years......

Actually, huge numbers of Irish left to begin new lives, carry on with their professions, AND continue to agitate for a free Ireland. It was the money they sent back that financed Ireland's freedom - and as far as I'm concerned, anybody who'd stay under an invader's rule when they had a way out is a fool.

No, but they can't outright lie and be believed by credulous international bodies and press. They have to be reasonably accurate or they'll be caught out - and they know this.
.

Since when? Once they keep the US onside they can do whatever they want. And usually do.


And the facts. The Palestinians have been caught inflating casualty figures, making claims of massacres where there were none - but the International Agencies just lap up their statements and investigate nothing.
.

As far as I remember a few intitial assesments proved wrong and all of a sudden "ITS ALL A LIE" gets shouted out from the usual suspects.


Actually, huge numbers of Irish left to begin new lives, carry on with their professions, AND continue to agitate for a free Ireland. It was the money they sent back that financed Ireland's freedom - and as far as I'm concerned, anybody who'd stay under an invader's rule when they had a way out is a fool.

So the Frenchman, Dutchman or Belgian who resisted at home rather than trying to get to England was a "fool". Likewise the Phillipinos who resisted the Japanese and the Chinese who did likewise. Hmmmm.

And whatever about the where the money came from, it was the people that stayed behind that did the fighting in 1919-21, if I recall.

Israel has been at least as responsible as the Palestinians for the current situation. I merely object to the "Blame Israel for everything" aspect that UB and a few others have been promoting.How are the Palestinians as responsible for the current situation as Israel? Have the Palestinians started a mass migration to a foreign land to create a state there with the support of international organizations and colonial powers? All Palestinians have ever done is react. And you above all others should know that.

How are the Palestinians as responsible for the current situation as Israel? Have the Palestinians started a mass migration to a foreign land to create a state there with the support of international organizations and colonial powers? All Palestinians have ever done is react. And you above all others should know that.

That just isn't my read of it. Yes, the tit-for-tat aggressions and bloodletting that has characterized this conflict (when outright war hasn't intervened) did start with the Israelis, there's no real question about that.

But responsibility for a situation doesn't just lie with the initiator, not after a point, and in this area that point is long past. Eventually you're not reacting, you're participating, and that lays the blame equally squarely on your own shoulders. One side or the other can always simply make the decision to STOP - and if neither does, both are to blame

Then, there's the point that Israel has attempted, no matter how ham-fistedly, to resolve the situation without further bloodshed. Particularly during the Rabin Prime Ministership, but also at other times, Israel has extended the olive branch. That said branch now lies in the Gaza dust is not solely Israel's fault.

Any attempt to eliminate Israel now would be as much an injustice as was done to the Palestinians in 1949. I believe the only hope is for Israel and Palestine to make their own peace.

And I hope it is not long in coming, though I fear it shall be.

Edit: Why do you feel I in particular would feel that way? Not that you're necessarily wrong, I'm just interested in your reasoning.

Depends on the conditions. And so far Israel has only caused suffering to Arabs.

Do you support Israel falling back to the green line as indicated in the UN Resolutions? This is not a depends answer.

That's religious/ideological/racist rubbish. Jews have settled down in Europe and elsewhere.

So have arabs. What's your point?

They had their lives and their homes there.

So have Arabs, what's your point?

Jews were European in culture, ideology, and conduct. There was no need to go to Palestine in an imperialist frenzy and demand new homes and take land from Arabs, who had nowhere to go.

Once again, Arabs are also part of the culture and Ideology and conduct in Europe, what your point?

No. They wanted someone else's soil, although they already had their own livelihood.

Which in reality, and in the face of history, is Bullshit.

Then let the British take the Jews. Wales would be nice. The British had the responsibility to administer the area on the Arabs' behalf and they bitterly betrayed the Arabs, again.

Britain is not their ancestrial home. The Middle East is. And no. Not just on the Arabs behalf was Britain in control of it for.

Yes it was.

No it was not. It was not even Arab land either.

because they have another concept of possession does not mean their home land was not theirs. And also because they had no political control does not mean it was not theirs.

Um that's because it wasn't. It was land taken away from its previous Owners (Jews)!

No. Although there are religious aspects to it, for Palestinian Arabs this is not about religion, it is about survival, culturally, economically, and otherwise.

Not about religion? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's the dumbest thing you said in this entire thread.

I find it funny that you call Israel "Arab land." Do you know why? Originally, the Hebrews/Jews lived Israel long before the Arabs. The Arabs are the immigrants who came from Arabia. You cannot call Israel "Muslim land" either, because Judiasm was before Islam. The Jews were kicked out of their homeland by the Romans.

I pointed that out but it does not good to him.

Um that's because it wasn't. It was land taken away from its previous Owners (Jews)!


Its the appeal to antiquity again. It can only be Corny.

Idiot.

Flame much?

*SNIP*

Well said Dododecapod. Well said indeed.

No matter how many times you say this, the quotes are still false.

PSST!! Don't let facts get in the way of his dilusions. Its funny watching him through that around even though it is false.

Because your trollish friend IDF says so? The 'evidence' IDF used to 'prove' the quotes were false trails back to pro-Israel websites. Please go and read your favourite website, the Jewish Virtual Dictionary.

Also, what's with all this using the Bible to justify Israel's existance, you all sound like Pat Robertson clones.

Care to prove that beyond a shadow of doubt?

Israel, when did it ever exist? :D If Israel doesn't appease its immediate Muslim neighbors then it's done for, regardless of American support.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Done for!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!! The Arab nations has lost every war that it ever had with Israel.

Israel sees how America is bogged down in Iraq not against great armies or tanks but local militias. Israel sees the ever growing Iran and its long reach by its humiliating defeat in Lebanon, not by Lebanese armies but Iranian backed Lebanese militias (Hezbollah). Israel sees other regional nations emerging and they aren't as quick to support Israel as America did. The world is changing, and if Israel wants to exist, it better change its attitude against the Palestinians or it will be like the many thousands of nations that have come and gone in the Middle Eastern sands.

Grow up.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Done for!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!! The Arab nations has lost every war that it ever had with Israel.



Grow up.

To be fair, Corneliu, the Arab forces only need to be good or lucky once.

Israel would be very pleased, I suspect, with the fact that Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Saudi are nowhere near as united today as they once were.

Flame much?


...says the genius who throws in

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Done for!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!


PSST!! Don't let facts get in the way of his dilusions. Its funny watching him through that around even though it is false

Only the Koenig quote is false. Do you know what that memoranda actually contains?