NationStates Jolt Archive

Israel, should it exist?

Effort, should it be made?

Answer, should it be given?

Me and the wife are picking up a 4x6 U-haul trailer in the morning. Israel is not involved.

Aside from what Fass said...

In my opinion, Israel PROBOBLY should not have been created.

HOWEVER

Attempting to remove, destroy, dissasemble, reloclate, or whatever you want to call it, Israel simply will not work in the modern situation. The two results I see coming from such an action either consist of World War III (or II, IV, V, or whatever, depending on how you like your history), or a rather unpleasant guerilla war in all nations involved, resulting in bad things happening for all concerned.
Remember, the Israelis practically invented the modern concept of terrorism, and they have a very good army. And nukes.
*shrugs*
But hey, if the UN wants to try to 'dissolve' Israel, they can go ahead and try it. I might even start a betting pool in regards to whose capitol gets burnt down first.

Israel has a right to exist, and should exist. Ehud Olmert and his gang of cronies however need to realise that Palestine has a right to exist as well.

All that needs to be done is for the UN to stop supporting Israel, and for the US to stop funding its military. The locals would handle the rest.

All that needs to be done is for the UN to stop supporting Israel, and for the US to stop funding its military. The locals would handle the rest.

So, youre all for the idea of yet another Arab-Israeli war?
*sigh*
Israel's military is decades ahead of any of the nations that would attack it. In fact, one of the strongest (militarily) nations in the region, Egypt, is actually on more or less good terms with Israel.
That leaves...Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia...yeah, real paragons of military power. Those T-55's are vicious bastards, you know. And of course the Merkhava is just a wusses tank.
Israel fought off the entire Middle East twice, it can easily do it again.

Yes.

Israel, should it exist?

Yes and you could not have picked a topic that will resort to a flamefest.

Uh... yeah.

Israel has a right to exist, and should exist. Ehud Olmert and his gang of cronies however need to realise that Palestine has a right to exist as well.

Which they pretty much do but has a problem with local terrorist organizations preventing all kinds of progress.

Which they pretty much do but has a problem with local terrorist organizations preventing all kinds of progress.progress to what?

Israel has a right to exist,...how and why did this "right" come into existence?

Effort, should it be made?
You win the thread.

Israel, should it exist?

Effort, should it be made?

Answer, should it be given?

:D

That's what this thread is worth...

yes

how and why did this "right" come into existence?

Why does any nation have a right to exist?

Why does any nation have a right to exist?they don't have a right, they just exist because of people living in a territory make up that nation. But Israel is just a bunch of Jews who renamed themselves.

And to kick-start the usual argument that such a threat will necessarily evolve into:
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

And to kick-start the usual argument that I would like this thread to evolve into:
You had a few spelling mistakes there, friend.

progress to what?

Does it have to be told to you? If it does, then you are stupider than I thought.

they don't have a right, they just exist because of people living in a territory make up that nation. But Israel is just a bunch of Jews who renamed themselves.

And to kick-start the usual argument that such a threat will necessarily evolve into:

:rolleyes: and the anti-semitism begins.

Does it have to be told to you? If it does, then you are stupider than I thought.Yes, tell me. What does Israel want Palestine to progress to? An occupied country within a concrete Wall?

Firstly:

http://www.wickedsunshine.com/WagePeace/Election2004/Images/AwJeez,NotThisShitAgain!.jpg

Secondly:

How exactly does this
Israel is just a bunch of Jews who renamed themselves.
conflict with this?
they don't have a right, they just exist because of people living in a territory make up that nation.

:rolleyes: and the anti-semitism begins.

Huzzah!
(toasts marshmellows over a minora)

:rolleyes: and the anti-semitism begins.so quoting the founder of Israel is anti-semitism?

Incompetent Questions, should they exist?


Israel was there first. In my opinion, it's the muslim nations that should be desolved and given to Israel.

Don't get me wrong, I have muslim friends, over here they're nice folk. I got turned off by the middle-eastern ones when they shot at my family on a trip...

they don't have a right, they just exist because of people living in a territory make up that nation. But Israel is just a bunch of Jews who renamed themselves.

I don't understand. They aren't really a nation because they are simply existing on the land? They lack something needed to have a right to be a country?

Israel was there first.What Israel was where first?

I don't understand. They aren't really a nation because they are simply existing on the land? They lack something needed to have a right to be a country?

Even though they have all the foundations of a state/nation/country that is internationally recognized. Palestine at the moment does not. Just ignore the little troll. He's a tool.

Answer, should it be given?

Talking like this, should it continue?

Yes, tell me. What does Israel want Palestine to progress to? An occupied country within a concrete Wall?

Now you are just being funny.

This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 1 seconds.

I love that HEHE!!!

What Israel was where first?

Don't you just love posts like this? :D

Palestine never existed as a country so yea...Israel was there first.

I don't understand. They aren't really a nation because they are simply existing on the land? They lack something needed to have a right to be a country?

hmmmm they have a flag...

hmmmm they have a flag...

And a currency :D

I don't understand. They aren't really a nation because they are simply existing on the land? They lack something needed to have a right to be a country?A nation is a community that its members are born into (hence the word), and that is often associated with a territory.
The problematic point is that the Jews have come to Palestine from outside, with the set aim to create a Jewish state and drive off the already present (Arab) inhabitants. The decision of Mr. Balfour to give away Arab land without its population's consent was simply an error that led to many more subsequent errors.

A nation is a community that its members are born into (hence the word), and that is often associated with a territory.

Sounds like Israel is a nation to me. As well as a Country :D

Don't you just love posts like this? :D
Palestine never existed as a country so yea...Israel was there first.But the question was not for Palestine at all. And Arabs were there before Israelis as such even existed.

A nation is a community that its members are born into (hence the word), and that is often associated with a territory.
The problematic point is that the Jews have come to Palestine from outside, with the set aim to create a Jewish state and drive off the already present (Arab) inhabitants. The decision of Mr. Balfour to give away Arab land without its population's consent was simply an error that led to many more subsequent errors.
Well, it's not like any Israelis have been born in Israel since it was formed... :rolleyes:

Sounds like Israel to me.

Uh, wouldn't this mean that a family with a family home is a nation?

If you consider Israel not a nation on the basis that it's mostly made up of immigrants, wouldn't you have to apply that to pretty much all of the Americas too?

*yawns*

I'd better put some coffee on...

Don't you just love posts like this? :D

Palestine never existed as a country so yea...Israel was there first.

The there first argument runs out of credence when you extend it back far enough into history. Apparently when the Israelites came to what is now Israel they drove out about 7 other nations (Deuteronomy 7:1 if you're interested) who were there first. So their basic claim is we came after that lot but before this lot. Which isn't a hugely substantial one. Not to mention standard arguments re:aborigines, native americans being there first etc.

But by far the best thing that could happen for this thread would be for it to be dedicated to Eddie Izzard quotes.

But the question was not for Palestine at all. And Arabs were there before Israelis as such even existed.

ACtually, that is not 100% true. Arabs refers to the area on the Arabian Peninsula.

Talking like this, should it continue?

yoda, will he sue?

*yawns*

I'd better put some coffee on...
Why bother? It's all just keyboard dihorrea.

A nation is a community that its members are born into (hence the word), and that is often associated with a territory.
The problematic point is that the Jews have come to Palestine from outside, with the set aim to create a Jewish state and drive off the already present (Arab) inhabitants. The decision of Mr. Balfour to give away Arab land without its population's consent was simply an error that led to many more subsequent errors.

Israelis have been born in their nation haven't they? Besides everyone (including Americans) came from the "outside" from where they currently reside. I'm sure we aren't supposed to tell all Americans to leave their land, right?

Why bother? It's all just keyboard dihorrea.

You're good for a n00b.

You're good for a n00b.
I'm no 'n00b', I just like changing names often.

Since the Israelies got a country, I think it's also fair that Chechnya, Kurdistan, and Palestine get a country too.

Too bad that's never going to happen.

Since the Israelies got a country, I think it's also fair that Chechnya, Kurdistan, and Palestine get a country too.

Too bad that's never going to happen.

Palestine is a possibility if the extremists on both sides just shut up.

As for Kurdistan, probably not along with Chechnya. Russia will never let them go. :(

Well, it's not like any Israelis have been born in Israel since it was formed... :rolleyes:

Sounds like Israel to me.

Uh, wouldn't this mean that a family with a family home is a nation?

If you consider Israel not a nation on the basis that it's mostly made up of immigrants, wouldn't you have to apply that to pretty much all of the Americas too?The question was whether Israel has a right to exist. I ask on what that right would be based. The answer is "because it exists". Which is not an answer really. Because Palestinian Arabs existed long before Israel existed as such, and they are denied the right to exist as a country because of the imposed creation of a state of foreigners there, without the consent of the population in the area at issue.
I just cannot understand how people only look at today#s situation but willfully ignore how it came to this, starting with the irresponsible promises that Balfour made to the Zionists. Israel was forced upon the Arabs. By the British, by the UN, by the Jews. The only reason why westerners are so ready to ignore this injustice is because Arabs are Muslims and Jews are practically Europeans. And they also readily ignore that there are still surviving Arab families who wait to return home but cannot because of the foreigners now living on the soil that once made their livelihood.

Since the Israelies got a country, I think it's also fair that Chechnya, Kurdistan, and Palestine get a country too.

Too bad that's never going to happen.

its going to be a bad day when the iraqi kurds lose everything they have spent the last 4 years building.

im pretty sure that palestine could have a country but it would require getting rid of all the outside agitators who have an interest in keeping the conflict going.

the chechnyans seem to have missed their best window of opportunity. maybe later.

Palestine is a possibility if the extremists on both sides just shut up.What kind of Palestine? Under whose conditions?

As for Kurdistan, probably not along with Chechnya. Russia will never let them go.Just as Israel will never allow an independent Palestinian state. Israel is still increasing the number of Jewish settlers in the West Bank.

The question was whether Israel has a right to exist. I ask on what that right would be based. The answer is "because it exists". Which is not an answer really. Because Palestinian Arabs existed long before Israel existed as such

WRONG!! Palestinian Arabs DID NOT exist long before Israel existed. Israel has been around longer than you want to ever admit. But don't worry. We won't let history stand in your alternate universe.


and they are denied the right to exist as a country because of the imposed creation of a state of foreigners there, without the consent of the population in the area at issue.

Wrong again. They had a state with the mandate. However, they rejected it. Do not get high and mighty. We know that you know jack shit about this. Its ok.

What kind of Palestine? Under whose conditions?

:headbang:

Just as Israel will never allow an independent Palestinian state.

:headbang:

The question was whether Israel has a right to exist. I ask on what that right would be based. The answer is "because it exists". Which is not an answer really. Because Palestinian Arabs existed long before Israel existed as such, and they are denied the right to exist as a country because of the imposed creation of a state of foreigners there, without the consent of the population in the area at issue.
I just cannot understand how people only look at today#s situation but willfully ignore how it came to this, starting with the irresponsible promises that Balfour made to the Zionists. Israel was forced upon the Arabs. By the British, by the UN, by the Jews. The only reason why westerners are so ready to ignore this injustice is because Arabs are Muslims and Jews are practically Europeans. And they also readily ignore that there are still surviving Arab families who wait to return home but cannot because of the foreigners now living on the soil that once made their livelihood.

Palestinians could have had their own state. They decided to throw it away in a war against the Jews. They lost the war and their state. They only have themselves to blame.

I'm no 'n00b', I just like changing names often.

Ah.

Palestinians could have had their own state. They decided to throw it away in a war against the Jews. They lost the war and their state. They only have themselves to blame.that's the typical one-dimensional bullshitty western rethoric.
it was the Jews who started the aggression by coming to Palestine out of ideological reasons. just ask ben gurion.

OK, Isreal goes all the way back to Bblical times, like Moses and stuff. During the middle ages the rightful owners of Isreal tried to create it but it kinda failed. In 1947 the Un helped create the state of Isreal, which was rightfully there snce before Jesus, but you've got some nuts out there that can't respect a nation THAT IS ONLY ABOUT THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY, which only wants peace. So YES Isreal should exist I don't even know why the question would even come up other than to satisfie the nuts. I mean the crusades screwed stuff up a lot too but Isreal has always belonged to who it belongs to. And it is the only Jewish state in the world and there are like a ton of mslim states. So a get over it . You know like a lot of terrorists are always trying to destroy the Jews, just leave em alone. Isreal is fine.

My piont being Isreal SHOULD exist. It always has it just wasn't written down on paper. So plese don't satisfy the nuts. Since before Jesus Isreal has ALWAYS belonged to the people of Isreal.

WRONG!! Palestinian Arabs DID NOT exist long before Israel existed. Israel has been around longer than you want to ever admit. But don't worry. We won't let history stand in your alternate universe.Do you really want to claim that there were no Arabs in Palestine before the Jews immigrated en masse? You know exactly that that's inaccurate.

Wrong again. They had a state with the mandate. However, they rejected it. Do not get high and mighty. We know that you know jack shit about this. Its ok.Whose mandate? You know pretty well that the Arabs were never asked about any mandate or any division plan. And the option was not to form their own state alongside a Jewish state, but to give up a part of their home territory to allow the creation of a Jewish state. Of course they rejected giving up their land, what do you expect? Would the UK have given up Wales to let the Jews settled there if any foreign power and ultimately the UN had decided thus without ever bothering to ask the British or the Welsh?

that's the typical one-dimensional bullshitty western rethoric.
it was the Jews who started the aggression by coming to Palestine out of ideological reasons. just ask ben gurion.

Typical western rethoric more like typical nut rethoric. Did you see my post. That is basically straight out of history text books and stuff.

OK, Isreal goes all the way back to Bblical times, like Moses and stuff. During the middle ages the rightful owners of Isreal tried to create it but it kinda failed. In 1947 the Un helped create the state of Isreal, which was rightfully there snce before Jesus, but you've got some nuts out there that can't respect a nation THAT IS ONLY ABOUT THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY, which only wants peace. So YES Isreal should exist I don't even know why the question would even come up other than to satisfie the nuts. I mean the crusades screwed stuff up a lot too but Isreal has always belonged to who it belongs to. And it is the only Jewish state in the world and there are like a ton of mslim states. So a get over it . You know like a lot of terrorists are always trying to destroy the Jews, just leave em alone. Isreal is fine.

My piont being Isreal SHOULD exist. It always has it just wasn't written down on paper. So plese don't satisfy the nuts. Since before Jesus Isreal has ALWAYS belonged to the people of Isreal.

Israelis, or Jews, are not Israelites. And Palestinian Arabs descend from the selfsame people Jews claim to descend from. So cut the crap about who was first and referring to ancient times. The only relevant question is who actually lived in the land when Balfour gave into the Zionist ambitions in 1917, and who actually lived in the land when the UN started out planning the partition of Palestine.

Typical western rethoric more like typical nut rethoric. Did you see my post. That is basically straight out of history text books and stuff.
And have you read what David ben Gurion said? He never wanted peace with the Arabs or share anything with them.

Do you really want to claim that there were no Arabs in Palestine before the Jews immigrated en masse? You know exactly that that's inaccurate.

Whose mandate? You know pretty well that the Arabs were never asked about any mandate or any division plan. And the option was not to form their own state alongside a Jewish state, but to give up a part of their home territory to allow the creation of a Jewish state. Of course they rejected giving up their land, what do you expect? Would the UK have given up Wales to let the Jews settled there if any foreign power and ultimately the UN had decided thus without ever bothering to ask the British or the Welsh?

Ah u know how since God said let there be light ( not to get religion involved I'm just using it as a time line) ah yeah and ah since then ISreal has belonged to Isreal. Remeber like Jesus' time. Ah Isreal. Like middle ages when modern nations are first devolping the crusades screwed thing up.

that's the typical one-dimensional bullshitty western rethoric.
it was the Jews who started the aggression by coming to Palestine out of ideological reasons. just ask ben gurion.

*shrugs*

Doesn't really matter why they moved there, they have a right to move wherever they wish, the fact that it is their ancient home gives even more of a reason though. You know that in the time of the Jewish migrations to Israel, many Arabs moved there at that time as well. After WWI that area was sparsely populated. Most of the residents at the time of the '48 war were immigrants, both Jewish and Palestinian so you can pipe down on the Jews stealing their land which is way to simplistic.

OK, Isreal goes all the way back to Bblical times, like Moses and stuff. During the middle ages the rightful owners of Isreal tried to create it but it kinda failed. In 1947 the Un helped create the state of Isreal, which was rightfully there snce before Jesus, but you've got some nuts out there that can't respect a nation THAT IS ONLY ABOUT THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY, which only wants peace. So YES Isreal should exist I don't even know why the question would even come up other than to satisfie the nuts. I mean the crusades screwed stuff up a lot too but Isreal has always belonged to who it belongs to. And it is the only Jewish state in the world and there are like a ton of mslim states. So a get over it . You know like a lot of terrorists are always trying to destroy the Jews, just leave em alone. Isreal is fine.

My piont being Isreal SHOULD exist. It always has it just wasn't written down on paper. So plese don't satisfy the nuts. Since before Jesus Isreal has ALWAYS belonged to the people of Isreal.

The Israelites invaded a place and set up a country. Israel was that country, then it stopped being a country. As lots of other countries have. In the meantime the land passed through the hands of several other peoples. It didn't always belong to the Israelis, they were just one invader of several.

What gives a country the right to exist is a very grey area, self-determination is one of the more popular ways although it has problems regarding how many people needed etc. The general justification for states existence is basically "because they do".

Israel is odd in that it was established/re-established/etc by outside forces for people (namely Jews) to immigrate into. Hence its right to exist gets questioned a fair bit, moreso because there is no palestinian state.

If Israel only wants peace then they're being stupid in the way they're going about it (for example, holding talks with the moderate palestinian party and then building a new settlement in the occupied territories pretty soon after; which allows the moderates to be attacked as being in Israel's pocket and loses them votes making peace less likely).

Ah u know how since God said let there be light ( not to get religion involved I'm just using it as a time line) ah yeah and ah since then ISreal has belonged to Isreal. Remeber like Jesus' time. Ah Isreal. Like middle ages when modern nations are first devolping the crusades screwed thing up.
*sighs*. I can't be bothered.

Eddie Izzard quotes are much more fun.

*shrugs*

Doesn't really matter why they moved there, they have a right to move wherever they wish, the fact that it is their ancient home gives even more of a reason though. You know that in the time of the Jewish migrations to Israel, many Arabs moved there at that time as well. After WWI that area was sparsely populated. Most of the residents at the time of the '48 war were immigrants, both Jewish and Palestinian so you can pipe down on the Jews stealing their land which is way to simplistic.Arabs were moving withing Arab territory. And? Jews were coming from outside. And stop the "ancient home" crap, that's just sentimental religious drooling. Jews had their lives in Europe, Russia, and elsewhere while Arabs were actually living in Palestine. There was no need ever to take away land from Arabs. Again, would the UK have given up Wales to let the Jews settled there if any foreign power and ultimately the UN had decided thus without ever bothering to ask the British or the Welsh?

Ah u know how since God said let there be light ( not to get religion involved I'm just using it as a time line) ah yeah and ah since then ISreal has belonged to Isreal. Remeber like Jesus' time. Ah Isreal. Like middle ages when modern nations are first devolping the crusades screwed thing up.
Israel dîd not exist when God said let there be light. Israel came into existence when the tribal confederacy of the "Judges era" was transformed into the Israelite kindom under Shaul in circa 1012 BCE. And between that and Jesus' time Israel was completely annihilated at least once. The Judeans of Jesus' time are not the same folks as the tribe of Yehud of the kingdom era. In the Middle Ages Palestine was under Byzantine, Islamic, Crusader, and finally Turkish rule. Turkish rule ended in 1917, at which point Arabs should have been given the possibility of self-determination. But they were betrayed by the British and the French. And finally they were forced to give up half of Palestine to foreign Jewish immigrants.

Israel, should it exist?

It shouldn't have ever been created. But now that it's there, we have to find a way to live with the mistakes of our forefathers. My suggestion is spend half of the money we spend on Mid-East arms to build the economy of Palestine.

It shouldn't have ever been created. But now that it's there, we have to find a way to live with the mistakes of our forefathers. My suggestion is spend half of the money we spend on Mid-East arms to build the economy of Palestine.

If you could guarantee that the funds will remain out of the hands of extremists than I would certainly support such an action.

So, youre all for the idea of yet another Arab-Israeli war?
*sigh*
Israel's military is decades ahead of any of the nations that would attack it. In fact, one of the strongest (militarily) nations in the region, Egypt, is actually on more or less good terms with Israel.
That leaves...Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia...yeah, real paragons of military power. Those T-55's are vicious bastards, you know. And of course the Merkhava is just a wusses tank.
Israel fought off the entire Middle East twice, it can easily do it again.

Just an FYI, Jordan is friendly with Israel too. Jordan actually likes Israel a whole lot more than they like the Palestinians. I guess that's because Israel never assassinated the king's grandfather and then tried to do the same to his father.

The Zionist Regime is of course an illegitimate state, mostly because unlike modern nationstates, it cannot commit to constant borders. Borders need to be established so that every pretext invasion, assassination, bombing from the Zionist aggressors is a violation of international law. I actually am very partial myself though to the treaty which put Jerusalem under UN control.

If were talking about the Palestinian issue, I would have to say the settlers are the problem, most of them are crazy ultra-nationalist racists who volunteer to live in such a dangerous area because they believe in a 'Greater Israel' and all this other Jewish superiority garbage. They routinely attack Palestinians in the West Bank, and with collaboration from the IDF guards, beat up those trying Palestinians waiting at the checkpoints to work in Jerusalem. They have even been noted to be attacked foreign journalists and tourists, by spitting at them and chanting racist slogans. Those Palestinians they don't like, they usually dob into the IDF guards to be taken aside and beaten. Their are many documented cases of this.

Basically, it's the Zionist settlers who are breaking international law and are acting contrary to the aggreements made by their govt with the West and others that no more settlements would be made, they themselves contribute to the cruel oppression of the Palestinians, and are they therefore just as much a legitimate militant target as the IDF soldiers.

they don't have a right, they just exist because of people living in a territory make up that nation. But Israel is just a bunch of Jews who renamed themselves.

And to kick-start the usual argument that such a threat will necessarily evolve into:I'm calling bullshit on your quotes.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=775
Media Monitors (http://www.mediamonitors.net)

An article archived on the Media Monitors Web site is filled with questionable assertions and bogus quotes (some of which were debunked in Part I.) The following quote (which also appears on the MIFTAH Web site) was attributed to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig, supposedly from his controversial report on Israeli Arabs in Galilee:

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.

Source given: Cited in Lustick, Ian, Arabs in the Jewish State, University of Texas Press, Texas, 1980.

Investigation: Neither the source given (Ian Lustick's Arabs in the Jewish State) nor the actual report itself contains any mention of "terror, assassination, intimidation or land confiscation".

The Koenig Report or “memorandum” as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry’s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written. It provoked controversy within Israel after being leaked to Al Hamishmar, the publication of Israel’s Marxist party, Mapam. Koenig’s recommendations included expanding and strengthening Israel’s Jewish presence in the Galilee, applying legal consequences to Arabs expressing hostility toward the state and Zionism, enforcing tax collection from the Arab sector, cutting family subsidies to Arabs with large families, eliminating preferential acceptance of Arabs into Israeli universities, channeling Arab students into studying the physical and natural sciences rather than humanities, and encouraging young Arabs to study abroad and emigrate. As controversial as Koenig’s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using "terror," "assassination," "intimidation" or "land confiscations."

Summary: Fabricated quote, false source

so quoting the founder of Israel is anti-semitism?
No, but these are

What Jewish civilization? You mean what Jews (poorly) copied from the real civilizations.
Well, but Jewish ignorance is nevertheless older than any Christian thing could be. And Jews today believe in the same crap that Jews believed in 2300 years ago.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12367982&postcount=38

Or pursued their sinister religion?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12349842&postcount=228

IDF those Gurion quotes come from many many quote sites and the like, I suspect your sources of being blatantly bias, possibly just an affiliate site from the Jewish Virtual Library, like that 'Myths of Facts of the Middle East' garbage article, lol.

that's the typical one-dimensional bullshitty western rethoric.
it was the Jews who started the aggression by coming to Palestine out of ideological reasons. just ask ben gurion.

They actually came to Palestine out of fear formed by 1900 years or persecution across Europe and in Arab majority nations. They wanted to start a state to protect themselves from genocide.

snip

AP is just a Nazi

The Zionists probably want to replace it with a military base, or a Synagogue that couples as a Bank too.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12338929&postcount=2

IDF those Gurion quotes come from many many quote sites and the like, I suspect your sources of being blatantly bias, possibly just an affiliate site from the Jewish Virtual Library, like that 'Myths of Facts of the Middle East' garbage article, lol.
I provided a link Mr. Nazi. Your quotes are forged, just like your favorite book, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

They actually came to Palestine out of fear formed by 1900 years or persecution across Europe and in Arab majority nations. They wanted to start a state to protect themselves from genocide.

Oh bull, Jews have a hyperinflated persecution disorder, apart from Germany in WWII Jews were permitted both in Ottoman Empire and in the West to practise their religion and culture to the fullest extent. The fact remains, the Zionists are a minority, a great amount of orthodox Jews oppose the state of Israel and the occupation of the West Bank. The Zionists are the problem.

Oh bull, Jews have a hyperinflated persecution disorder, apart from Germany in WWII Jews were permitted both in Ottoman Empire and in the West to practise their religion and culture to the fullest extent. The fact remains, the Zionists are a minority, a great amount of orthodox Jews oppose the state of Israel and the occupation of the West Bank. The Zionists are the problem.You don't even know what a Zionist is.

A Zionist is just someone who believes Israel should exist. The vast majority of Jews are Zionists for the vast majority of Jews believe Israel has the right to exist. There are many Zionists who disagree with Israel's government, but so long as they believe Israel can exist, they are still Zionists.

I suppose the ghettos across Poland were nothing, as were the Czar's pogroms, or the Soviets sending Jews to Siberia. Oh let's not forget the inquisition, the attacks against Jews in Iraq and Yemen, etc.

Let's just face it, you're a bigotted Nazi and hate the Jews.

You don't even know what a Zionist is moron.

A Zionist is just someone who believes Israel should exist. The vast majority of Jews are Zionists for the vast majority of Jews believe Israel has the right to exist. There are many Zionists who disagree with Israel's government, but so long as they believe Israel can exist, they are still Zionists.

I suppose the ghettos across Poland were nothing, as were the Czar's pogroms, or the Soviets sending Jews to Siberia. Oh let's not forget the inquisition, the attacks against Jews in Iraq and Yemen, etc.

Let's just face it, you're a bigotted Nazi and hate the Jews.

Ever heard of the Abu Dis Ghetto?

Historical persecution is not an excuse for an ultranationalist group to annex territory and oppress a population using the 'Holocaust' and other perceived injustices as pretext.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY

Ever heard of the Abu Dis Ghetto?

Historical persecution is not an excuse for an ultranationalist group to annex territory and oppress a population using the 'Holocaust' and other perceived injustices as pretext.
So the Holocaust is just perceived? I guess 40% of the world Jewish population being exterminated in the period of 5 years is a perceived injustice and only in our minds.

I notice you put the Holocaust in ''. Are you questioning it? It really wouldn't surprise me if you did so Adolf. It is so like you.

Yes, Israel should exist. That said, it's not perfect, and it does have many faults, some serious. On the whole, though, I'd say the good far outweighs the bad, and compared to its neighbors, it's a paradise. The fact that many far-leftists foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Israel means they must be doing at least something right. :p

If it happened, where exactly did it happen?Primarily in Poland. If you ever want, you can go visit Auschwitz. Perhaps you would learn a thing or 2, but I doubt it in your case.

So the Holocaust is just perceived? I guess 40% of the world Jewish population being exterminated in the period of 5 years is a perceived injustice and only in our minds.

I notice you put the Holocaust in ''. Are you questioning it? It really wouldn't surprise me if you did so Adolf. It is so like you.

If it happened, where exactly did it happen?

If it happened, where exactly did it happen?

You can say that with a straight face? You've got chutzpah.

:rolleyes:

Whatever credibility you may have had has just been completely thrown out the window.

There is a reason I'm now quoting him as Adolf Prime.

People say I just call any person who questions Israel anti-semitic. That isn't the case. I don't call Nodinia or you anti-semitic. I do call OD, UB, and AP anti-semitic, but I have the quotes to prove it.

If it happened, where exactly did it happen?

:rolleyes:

Whatever credibility you may have had has just been completely thrown out the window.

Primarily in Poland. If you ever want, you can go visit Auschwitz. Perhaps you would learn a thing or 2, but I doubt it in your case.

He'd just say it's "Zionist propaganda" or that the Jews built Auschwitz after the war to "prove" the Holocaust.

There is a reason I'm now quoting him as Adolf Prime

Can't say I blame you.

So, if it happened in Europe, then the solution to it and the Jews lies in Europe, correct?

So, if it happened in Europe, then the solution to it and the Jews lies in Europe, correct?

No Jew wanted to be in Europe after the Holocaust. Even the Jews who didn't go to Israel left Europe. Those who didn't make Aliyah went to America.

Europeans still had a resentment for the Jews following the Holocaust. Such feelings rooted in 2 thousand years of hatred just don't go away overnight.

So, if it happened in Europe, then the solution to it and the Jews lies in Europe, correct?

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or vomit.

Effort, should it be made?

Mean, what do you?

No Jew wanted to be in Europe after the Holocaust. Even the Jews who didn't go to Israel left Europe. Those who didn't make Aliyah went to America.

Europeans still had a resentment for the Jews following the Holocaust. Such feelings rooted in 2 thousand years of hatred just don't go away overnight.

So, going to Palestine and the ME to live was more safe than staying in Europe, lol.

So, going to Palestine and the ME to live was more safe than staying in Europe, lol.

Fewer Jews have been killed in the almost 60 years Israel has existed than were killed during the periods of the pogroms, Inquisition, and ghettos, so yes it is safer.

Of course Israel has a right to exist. Just because it was formed in possibly the stupidest way possible doesn't mean that it doesn't have the right to exist. Seriously, though, there were way better ways for it to have been made.

Fewer Jews have been killed in the almost 60 years Israel has existed than were killed during the periods of the pogroms, Inquisition, and ghettos, so yes it is safer.

Umm, sorry to rain on your parade, but by occupying Arab land and identifying Israel as the land of all Jews in the ME, that is putting Jews is more danger. Especially with such a small population.

Umm, sorry to rain on your parade, but by occupying Arab land and identifying Israel as the land of all Jews in the ME, that is putting Jews is more danger. Especially with such a small population.

Then why have fewer than 15,000 been killed in the past 60 years? That is less than one Jew killed a day due to violence. That is far less than what occurred during any period when the Jews were in the diaspara.

Then why have fewer than 15,000 been killed in the past 60 years? That is less than one Jew killed a day due to violence. That is far less than what occurred during any period when the Jews were in the diaspara.

[dumb question] Does this include the 1948 war, Six Days' War, Yom Kippur War, etc.?

Then why have fewer than 15,000 been killed in the past 60 years? That is less than one Jew killed a day due to violence. That is far less than what occurred during any period when the Jews were in the diaspara.

Still, Israel purely existing is a threat to Arab states, and to Iran and others, just saying that when they loose a war or whatever, they'll only have themselves to blame.

Still, Israel purely existing is a threat to Arab states, and to Iran and others, just saying that when they loose a war or whatever, they'll only have themselves to blame.

How are they a threat to Arabs? Because the evil Jews are going to take over the world?

How are they a threat to Arabs? Because the evil Jews are going to take over the world?

No, because your on their land.

No, because your on their land.
Explain. Do Jews emit deadly Arab-killing radiation or something?

Explain. Do Jews emit deadly Arab-killing radiation or something?

You know, that whole concept of sovereignty?

You know, that whole concept of sovereignty?
So the entire Arab world has sovereignity over Palestine? It doesn't necessarily mean they're a threat, though. The Israelis are hardly trying to take over the entire Middle East. Whether you think the state of Israel was formed illegally or not, now they already have the land and are hardly going to throw it away by trying to blow up their neighbours.

You had a few spelling mistakes there, friend.be careful there.. I was banned for editing quotes..
You are only allowed if you use the ().. and It cannot modify the intention of the original post.

:rolleyes: and the anti-semitism begins.I knew you were going to say that.

So the entire Arab world has sovereignity over Palestine? It doesn't necessarily mean they're a threat, though. The Israelis are hardly trying to take over the entire Middle East. Whether you think the state of Israel was formed illegally or not, now they already have the land and are hardly going to throw it away by trying to blow up their neighbours.

Still, I think finding them a nice patch of Europe wouldn't be so hard, considering all the problems it would solve.

AP is just a NaziMore Godwinning

IDF reminds of Avidor, 'All arabs are nazis and must be executed!'.

I suppose the ghettos across Poland were nothing, as were the Czar's pogroms, or the Soviets sending Jews to Siberia. Oh let's not forget the inquisition, the attacks against Jews in Iraq and Yemen, etc.

Let's just face it, you're a bigotted Nazi and hate the Jews.it never fails.. every time there is some debate about Israel..
someone will say "antisemite"
someone else will say "Nazi"
a third one will say "Holocaust"
and sometimes the name "Hitler" will make it out

So the Holocaust is just perceived? I guess 40% of the world Jewish population being exterminated in the period of 5 years is a perceived injustice and only in our minds.

I notice you put the Holocaust in ''. Are you questioning it? It really wouldn't surprise me if you did so Adolf. It is so like you... or sometimes its a combo "2 for 1"

Holocaust Card - 10+ sympathy points when used on European countries. 2B$US military subsidies when used on United States.

Israel, should it exist?

no. next question.

Israel, should it exist?

If we deny Israel the right to exist, then we deny the right of every nation to exist. All nations are, like Israel, artificial constructs made at the expense of some group or other.

If we deny Israel the right to exist, then we deny the right of every nation to exist. All nations are, like Israel, artificial constructs made at the expense of some group or other.

Good point.

Now that it ALREADY exists? Yes, although they need to fuck off and give the Palestinians their land back.

Before it was carved out of the Palestinian land? Fuck no.

Explain. Do Jews emit deadly Arab-killing radiation or something?or something. the emit deadly Arab-killing gunfire.

Palestinians could have had their own state. They decided to throw it away in a war against the Jews. They lost the war and their state. They only have themselves to blame.

It was only a matter of time till the rough equivalent ignorance to the "bunch of jews" remark reared its ugly head, I suppose......

It was only a matter of time till the rough equivalent ignorance to the "bunch of jews" remark reared its ugly head, I suppose......you are right, it wasn't a bunch of Jews, it was a freaking flood of Jews. :rolleyes:
and they came to Palestine to take away a part of Palestine. do you deny that?

Again, would the UK have given up Wales to let the Jews settled there if any foreign power and ultimately the UN had decided thus without ever bothering to ask the British or the Welsh? And would the world, especially the western powers, have joined the Jews in their Anti-Welsh proceedings as they have supported their Anti-Arab proceedings?

Israel, should it exist?
Yes. Why shouldn't it? Of course, creating Israel in Palestinian Arab territory without their consent was a rather stupid idea, but that can't be helped today. Instead, our efforts should be focused on the creation of a Palestinian state as the best way to supplant the the driving forces that create terrorism.

you are right, it wasn't a bunch of Jews, it was a freaking flood of Jews. :rolleyes:
and they came to Palestine to take away a part of Palestine. do you deny that?
Nodinia undoubtedly does, but doesn't remove Israel's right to exist. Should America and Canada not have a right to exist as they were founded on immigration in the 18th and 19th centuries? Or what about the UK - should it be turned back over to the Celts?

Again, would the UK have given up Wales to let the Jews settled there if any foreign power and ultimately the UN had decided thus without ever bothering to ask the British or the Welsh? And would the world, especially the western powers, have joined the Jews in their Anti-Welsh proceedings as they have supported their Anti-Arab proceedings?
Who knows. But had the world done so, and created a Jewish state in Wales (I doubt the Zionist organisations would have agreed) and it had existed up to this day, they would have pretty much earned their right to exist.

Yes. Why shouldn't it? Of course, creating Israel in Palestinian Arab territory without their consent was a rather stupid idea, but that can't be helped today.So the passage of time does make right out of wrong?

So the passage of time does make right out of wrong?
Yes, in the sense that you cannot undo decisions made in the past, and no, in the sense that does not make the decision made the right decision.

Yes, in the sense that you cannot undo decisions made in the past, and no, in the sense that does not make the decision made the right decision.However, the negative effects of past wrong decisions can be corrected and justice be restored. What about those Arab families who have lived in Palestine since ancient times but cannot return to their soil and livelihood because some Jew lives there now?
Where were the Jews planning to live in Palestine if their set goal was not to remove the inhabitants? All the crap of peacefully setting up a Jewish state in a land that was already inhabited was a lie from the start. And I suppose we all know that. But I cannot understand why some do not see the necessity to revert the consequences of this lie.

However, the negative effects of past wrong decisions can be corrected and justice be restored.
Of course. A Palestinian state could be created, preferably on the 1967 or Geneva Agreement borders, with an agreement between Israel, the Arab states and the Palestinian State over a right to return, or compensation.

New Burmesia is right. Even though the decision to create the Israeli state without the consent of the indigenous Palestinian population and the neighbouring Middle Eastern nations in retrospect was an incredibly stupid and foolish thing to do, we are stuck with it.

Israel has existed for more than half a century now. A generation of people have been born and have died in Israel. It has consolidated it's position and has a right to be a nationstate by the virtue that it has existed for such a length of time. That may not seem fair, but that is how it has worked for hundreds of years. The colonisation of America, Canada and Australia are examples.

It is impractical and naive to think you can just uproot an established nation such as Israel now. The time for the dissolution of Israel has been and gone.

The only way you can have a practical and somewhat fair solution is to work for the creation of a proper Palestinian state.

Of course. A Palestinian state could be created, preferably on the 1967 or Geneva Agreement borders, with an agreement between Israel, the Arab states and the Palestinian State over a right to return, or compensation.Why preferably on the 1967 or Geneva Agreement borders?
You know, I have always supported the idea that Israel should annex the West Bank entirely, let the Palestinian refugees back in, and give them full citizenship and voting rights.

New Burmesia is right. Even though the decision to create the Israeli state without the consent of the indigenous Palestinian population and the neighbouring Middle Eastern nations in retrospect was an incredibly stupid and foolish thing to do, we are stuck with it.

Israel has existed for more than half a century now. A generation of people have been born and have died in Israel. It has consolidated it's position and has a right to be a nationstate by the virtue that it has existed for such a length of time. That may not seem fair, but that is how it has worked for hundreds of years. The colonisation of America, Canada and Australia are examples.

It is impractical and naive to think you can just uproot an established nation such as Israel now. The time for the dissolution of Israel has been and gone.

The only way you can have a practical and somewhat fair solution is to work for the creation of a proper Palestinian state.Inside the Wall?

All that needs to be done is for the UN to stop supporting Israel, and for the US to stop funding its military. The locals would handle the rest.

The UN is about as useful as a water-proof hairdryer and US millitary aid only began after the Six Day War (aka Israel's greatest millitary victory). You're also ignoring the Samson Option (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option).

Palestinians could have had their own state. They decided to throw it away in a war against the Jews. They lost the war and their state. They only have themselves to blame.

Well said Utracia.

that's the typical one-dimensional bullshitty western rethoric.
it was the Jews who started the aggression by coming to Palestine out of ideological reasons. just ask ben gurion.

And that's the typical anti-semitic bullshitty from those who hate jews.

Do you really want to claim that there were no Arabs in Palestine before the Jews immigrated en masse? You know exactly that that's inaccurate.

Where they arabs? No. They weren't. ARabs came from Saudi Arabia. Hence the name, Arabs. If you want to be more accurate, they were canan's among various other names. Of which, all of them are extinct.

Whose mandate?

You're that stupid of History?

Probably not, however, it does exist, and is unlikely to go away.

Israelis, or Jews, are not Israelites. And Palestinian descend from the selfsame people Jews claim to descend from.

So you deny the jews claim that they descended from the same people as the Palestinians?

So cut the crap about who was first and referring to ancient times.

Can't do that sorry as it is paramount to this debate.

The only relevant question is who actually lived in the land when Balfour gave into the Zionist ambitions in 1917, and who actually lived in the land when the UN started out planning the partition of Palestine.

And I'm sure you were shown where the states of BOTH Israel and Palestine would be. OOPS!!!! So cut the crap!

I am all for the Catholic Principality of Jerusalem and other city states.

Arabs were moving withing Arab territory.

I did not know that Saudia Arabia owned the area in 1947.

And? Jews were coming from outside. And stop the "ancient home" crap, that's just sentimental religious drooling.

IT CAN"T BE IGNORED!!!!

Jews had their lives in Europe, Russia, and elsewhere while Arabs were actually living in Palestine.

As well as jews. I notice you love to gloss over that fact? Oh and let us not forget Christians.

There was no need ever to take away land from Arabs. Again, would the UK have given up Wales to let the Jews settled there if any foreign power and ultimately the UN had decided thus without ever bothering to ask the British or the Welsh?

I love you keep bringing that up when it really has nothing to do with it. It goes back to their homeland. That's the only thing that matters and why it keeps coming up though you do your level best to shut it up. Guess what? I won't stop bringing it up because it is paramount to this debate entirely. You do not like that then take your anti-semitism elsewhere.

you are right, it wasn't a bunch of Jews, it was a freaking flood of Jews. :rolleyes:
and they came to Palestine to take away a part of Palestine. do you deny that?

I do indeed. "Take away" does not represent the totality of Israeli thought on the matter even today. I doubt the refugees of the 30's and mid 40's gave much of a mind to anything except getting the fuck away from Europe.

You seem to be one of those hell bent on dragging the idea of "Jews" into everything. To me its irrelevant who they are.

Well said Utracia.?

Yeah, trot out a few more oversimplfications and generalisations while you're at.

Why preferably on the 1967 or Geneva Agreement borders?
I think it is the borders that would be most likely to get the support of the Arab community, both in and outside of Palestine. Any agreement must have that kind of support, otherwise terrorists would have the excuse they need to ignore any agreement.

You know, I have always supported the idea that Israel should annex the West Bank entirely, let the Palestinian refugees back in, and give them full citizenship and voting rights.
I'd go with that, so long as there were enough rights to protect the Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs from any kind of oppression. It's unlikely to work, however. Most Palestinians support a Palestinian state, separate from Israel.
http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2007/no61.pdf

I am all for the Catholic Principality of Jerusalem and other city states.

with casinos and booze for all.....

Umm, sorry to rain on your parade, but by occupying Arab land and identifying Israel as the land of all Jews in the ME, that is putting Jews is more danger. Especially with such a small population.

Do I have to go through this again?

Still, Israel purely existing is a threat to Arab states, and to Iran and others, just saying that when they loose a war or whatever, they'll only have themselves to blame.

A threat? Why are they a threat? Because they kicked the countries in the Middle East's ass one to many times?

Do I have to go through this again?

How come you get to criminally oversimplify, and he doesn't?

Israel, should it exist?
one should restore the Canaaite nation on the Israeli and Palestinian territory. This way everyone loses and I win!

You know, that whole concept of sovereignty?

So who has soveriegnty over Palestine? Yes that is right folks, Israel and you can thank the 6 days war for that. Or was it Yom Kipur?

Still, I think finding them a nice patch of Europe wouldn't be so hard, considering all the problems it would solve.

And it'll create new ones.

no. next question.

I knew you were going to say that. Then again you are a fundie.

So who has soveriegnty over Palestine? Yes that is right folks, Israel and you can thank the 6 days war for that. Or was it Yom Kipur?

No, they do not have soverignty over "Palestine". They have the state of Israel as internationally recognised. They are illegally occupying and colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. And we can really thank the US for that, because if it wasnt for them, sanctions would have forced them to draw back years ago, with significantly less violence and hate than is now the case. Thanks America, you fucking hypocrite.

or something. the emit deadly Arab-killing gunfire.

Even though they have gone around blowing up civilians left and right that you don't seem to mind at all even though most civilized countries have condemned such actions. You want to point to why Palestinians do not have a state? There's your answer, they keep blowing up innocent men, women, and children.

it never fails.. every time there is some debate about Israel..
someone will say "antisemite"
someone else will say "Nazi"
a third one will say "Holocaust"
and sometimes the name "Hitler" will make it out

It's invariably the anti-Zionists who bring up the Holocaust, I can't remember the last time anyone invoked the Holocaust as justification for Israel's existence because it's a damn stupid argument.

It's also the anti-Zionists who are most likely to make comparisons to between Israel and Nazi Germany.

Why preferably on the 1967 or Geneva Agreement borders?
You know, I have always supported the idea that Israel should annex the West Bank entirely, let the Palestinian refugees back in, and give them full citizenship and voting rights.

They did invite the Palestinians back after the Israeli War for independence with full voting and citizenship rights.

No, they do not have soverignty over "Palestine". They have the state of Israel as internationally recognised. They are illegally occupying and colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

I can lay Jerusalem at the feet of the Arab World. Why? Because if they had not violated a UN Resolution that created both Israel and Palestine with Jerusalem as an International city, we would not be in this mess today.

Even though they have gone around blowing up civilians left and right that you don't seem to mind at all even though most civilized countries have condemned such actions. You want to point to why Palestinians do not have a state? There's your answer, they keep blowing up innocent men, women, and children.


Yet even if we only include the last 7 years, the IDF have killed 5 times as many.

They did invite the Palestinians back after the Israeli War for independence with full voting and citizenship rights..

If you look that up, you'll see that thats not the case at all.

I can lay Jerusalem at the feet of the Arab World. Why? Because if they had not violated a UN Resolution that created both Israel and Palestine with Jerusalem as an International city, we would not be in this mess today...

The fact that Arabs fucked up excuses Israel grabbing the city how?

I do indeed. "Take away" does not represent the totality of Israeli thought on the matter even today. I doubt the refugees of the 30's and mid 40's gave much of a mind to anything except getting the fuck away from Europe. If it was just about leaving Europe, they could just have gone elsewhere. And they did "take away" and they knew they would when they started out. Or tell me, where were the Jews planning to live in Palestine if their set goal was not to remove the inhabitants?

You seem to be one of those hell bent on dragging the idea of "Jews" into everything. To me its irrelevant who they are.To me it is not, because it is Judaism that is the justification for choosing Palestine as the place for the Jewish state. If it didn't matter who they are, they could have taken western Pennsylvania as their new home.

Where they arabs? No. They weren't. ARabs came from Saudi Arabia. Hence the name, Arabs. If you want to be more accurate, they were canan's among various other names. Of which, all of them are extinct.That's complete and utter bullshit. And you know it. Arabs don't come from Saudi Arabia, they have been in the entire Middle East long before the Saud family was anywhere near to ruling most of the Arabian peninsula. Arabs are the descendants of the merged Semitic and Indo-European people of Mesopotamia, the Levant, and parts of the Arabian peninsula. What is today Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Palestine/Israel, and the states of the Arabian peninsula were all inhabited by Arabs before the Jewish immigration of the 19th and 20th centuries.
And what is "canan's" supposed to mean?

You're that stupid of History?So you are saying that the Arabs gave anyone a mandate to rule in their stead?

Israel has as much right to exist as any other country. However, the way it was created was particularly stupid and unfair on those already living in the area. But it is there to stay, so we must work to form and solution, simply because people are dying for unnecessary reasons.

So you are saying that the Arabs gave anyone a mandate to rule in their stead?

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post because you are really really ignorant to history.

However, with this, the Ottoman Empire was defeated and the area taken over by the Brits and French. And the Ottoman's were not arabs. They were turks.

Yet even if we only include the last 7 years, the IDF have killed 5 times as many.

Counting the number of people killed is rarely a good way to decide who is in the wrong, but it's especially misleading in this case.

1. Justification isn't determined by the body count.
2. Israeli fatality figures are artificially low because their health care system is so much more advanced than those of their neighbours. For example, during the recent Israel-Lebanon conflict, somewhere between 1,035 and 1,191 Lebanese civilians died, as opposed to only 43 Israeli civilians deaths. However, if you look at the number of people injured the figures are 4,409 for Lebanon and 4,262 for Israel, a much smaller disparity.
3. Even during the Intifada only about one in ten suicide bomb attacks actually succeeded, the rest were stopped by Israeli security. The Palestinians, on the other hand, don't really have any way to stop Israeli attacks, so the number of Israelis killed is only one tenth of the number that terrorists have tried to kill.

That said, I agree that the conduct of the IDF in the occupied territories is appalling.

Israel has as much right to exist as any other country. However, the way it was created was particularly stupid and unfair on those already living in the area. But it is there to stay, so we must work to form and solution, simply because people are dying for unnecessary reasons.

Has anyone ever been killed for a necessary reason?

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post because you are really really ignorant to history.The fact of the matter is that you have no clue of Middle Eastern history, neither ancient nor modern.

However, with this, the Ottoman Empire was defeated and the area taken over by the Brits and French. And the Ottoman's were not arabs. They were turks.And then the Arabs who were finally free of Turkish rule mandated the Brits and French, or anyone else, to rule in their stead?

The fact of the matter is that you have no clue of Middle Eastern history, neither ancient nor modern.

Yea right. I actually had a class on the Middle East. Passed it with ease too.

And then the Arabs who were finally free of Turkish rule mandated the Brits and French, or anyone else, to rule in their stead?

Why should they get a say when they did not have a say when the Ottoman Turks took them over? Not saying it wasn't right but since when did governments care?

Yea right. I actually had a class on the Middle East. Passed it with ease too.School classes are always easily passed. That says nothing about the knowledge you really gained there.

Why should they get a say when they did not have a say when the Ottoman Turks took them over? Not saying it wasn't right but since when did governments care?So the right to self-determination is only for westerners. And foreign rule is ok as long as it serves what you want. And because you want the Jewish state to exist in the Middle East you don't care what Arabs want or wanted. That attitude is called imperialistic.

The way Israel was created was actually considerably much more peaceful compared to most other nations in the world.

School classes are always easily passed. That says nothing about the knowledge you really gained there.

Try university UB. And the Professor knows the Middle East. Probably better than you do. Hell my father probably knows more about it than you do too.

So the right to self-determination is only for westerners. And foreign rule is ok as long as it serves what you want. And because you want the Jewish state to exist in the Middle East you don't care what Arabs want or wanted. That attitude is called imperialistic.

Or the fact that was how the culture was back in those days. However, you never seem to realize the differences in cultures between today and yesterday.

The way Israel was created was actually considerably much more peaceful compared to most other nations in the world.

Despite the whole 1948 war for independence that has never been actually resolved.

That's complete and utter bullshit. And you know it. Arabs don't come from Saudi Arabia, they have been in the entire Middle East long before the Saud family was anywhere near to ruling most of the Arabian peninsula. Arabs are the descendants of the merged Semitic and Indo-European people of Mesopotamia, the Levant, and parts of the Arabian peninsula. What is today Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Palestine/Israel, and the states of the Arabian peninsula were all inhabited by Arabs before the Jewish immigration of the 19th and 20th centuries.
And what is "canan's" supposed to mean?


I'd assume "canan's" is referring to the people of canaan. The canaanites were in the land where modern Israel/Palestine/Lebanon is today, and according to the Bible (Deuteronomy 7:1) were driven out by the invading Israelites.

According to wiki they're not extinct.


Genetic research using Y-chromosome haploid analysis has identified a Phoenician genetic marker (a so-to-speak "Canaanite gene") among modern Lebanese populations, including among Maronite Christians and Shiite Muslims, especially near the coast.

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan#Genetics)

Despite the whole 1948 war for independence that has never been actually resolved.

But that is more Israel defending it's independance then it actually creating it's own independance.

But that is more Israel defending it's independance then it actually creating it's own independance.

It was still a war nonetheless

It was still a war nonetheless

Doesn't stop my point from being valid though.

But that is more Israel defending it's independence then it actually creating it's own independence.
how can a state that did not exist prior, "defend" anything?

how can a state that did not exist prior, "defend" anything?

Well, if you bother to read history....

What Israel was where first?

Before you form an argument, try READING the oppositional documents, you know, the bible, history books, things that haven't been altered to your liking, before you start to lecture on who was there and who wasn't.

Israel was there since humans existed and began settling. The tribes, that sort of thing. Egypt comes along and enslaves them. They get freedom and come back, to see Palestinians have taken their place. Muslims face no persecution compared to the Jews, and plus, the Jews don't blow their own ruddy people up, nor stone them for being raped.

Israel was there since humans existed and began settling. The tribes, that sort of thing. Egypt comes along and enslaves them. They get freedom and come back, to see Palestinians have taken their place.roflol

how can a state that did not exist prior, "defend" anything?

What do you mean? It was granted self determination, created its own govermnet/economy etc..., therefore it existed.

Before you form an argument, try READING the oppositional documents, you know, the bible, history books, things that haven't been altered to your liking, before you start to lecture on who was there and who wasn't.

Israel was there since humans existed and began settling. The tribes, that sort of thing. Egypt comes along and enslaves them. They get freedom and come back, to see Palestinians have taken their place. Muslims face no persecution compared to the Jews, and plus, the Jews don't blow their own ruddy people up, nor stone them for being raped.

No. The land that was to become known as Israel was canaan before that, then according to the bible God promised it to Abraham


1: Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.
2: And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
3: I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves."
4: So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
5: And Abram took Sar'ai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions which they had gathered, and the persons that they had gotten in Haran; and they set forth to go to the land of Canaan. When they had come to the land of Canaan,
6: Abram passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land.
7: Then the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built there an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Not even the Bible claims the Jews were there originally.

What do you mean? It was granted self determination, created its own govermnet/economy etc..., therefore it existed.Who was granted what by whom? And at whose expense?

Who was granted what by whom? And at whose expense?

You could ask that question for any country.

You could ask that question for any country.But the answers would surely be different for most.

Israel was there since humans existed and began settling. The tribes, that sort of thing. Egypt comes along and enslaves them.

Umm yea. I have to laugh at this. Go back and re-read the story of Joseph.

Umm yea. I have to laugh at this. Go back and re-read the story of Joseph.


So the next time somebody asks why Israel gets to put a few fanatics in semi-detached houses in the West Bank, its because of the coat of many colours. You're great, you are.

Would somebody please explain to me how Jewish mythology is relevant to the legitimacy of a state in the 21st century? Israel should stand or fall on its own merits, not because of what some book says.

Before you form an argument, try READING the oppositional documents, you know, the bible....Pat Robertson and other evengelicals keep telling US "the Bible says the land belongs to the Jews. "

and some idiots believe him.

Would somebody please explain to me how Jewish mythology is relevant to the legitimacy of a state in the 21st century? Israel should stand or fall on its own merits, not because of what some book says.Israel would never stand on its own merits..
Israel stands on Billions of US money used to finance one of the most expensive military industrial complex..
These billions make US not safer. It creates more hate.. and thats is where terror coemes from.

Without that US welfare money.. there would be no Israel.. there would be no Palestinean genocide.

BTW if Israel was created in Europe or North America.. chances are the Iraq war would have not happened.
US taxpayers are financing this endless pithole.

Israel would never stand on its own merits..
Israel stands on Billions of US money used to finance one of the most expensive military industrial complex..

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, US military aid only began after Israel won the Six Day War. They're more than capable of standing on their own.

These billions make US not safer. It creates more hate.. and thats is where terror coemes from.

A gross over simplification. Terrorism is inspired by a combination of exasperation with Western propping up of oppressive Middle Eastern regimes (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, et al.), economic failure (the GNP of the entire Arab world, not counting money from fossil fuels, is less than that of Finland), and an upsurge in religious fundamentalism triggered by the failure of Arab nationalism. To lay the blame entirely at Israel's door is grossly unfair. Also, some of the hatred displayed towards Israel isn't the result of any particular Israeli action: Israel's continuing existence is a constant reminder of how much Islam's power has been weakened since the glory days of the Caliphate and as such inspires a violent reaction.

Without that US welfare money.. there would be no Israel..

I've already addressed this.

there would be no Palestinean genocide.

Genocide? Given that the Palestinian population is growing and has been for a long time I can only conclude that either Israel's military is remarkably incompetent or that you're exaggerating.

I don't dispute that the Palestinians have suffered greatly, but to describe it as 'genocide' is ridiculous.

BTW if Israel was created in Europe or North America.. chances are the Iraq war would have not happened.

Iraq only has oil because of Israel? :confused:

Apparently the Palestinian Authority have made it a capital crime to sell property (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122017) to Jews (not Israelis).

For the record, I've never seen this news website before so I've got no idea if it's reliable or not. One of the adds on the webpage is for an organisation called 'Jonah' which claims to "prevent" and "treat" homosexuality.

Israel, should it exist?

Reply, should it be posted?

I have a list of several nations that shouldn't exist.

Great Britain - It was superimposed over several different nations, including but not limited to - Scotland, Wales, Anglia, a portion of Ireland and several others - this was done through military conquest and at the expense of several indigenous populations.

Germany - Same reasons

France - Same reasons

Spain - Same reasons

UAR - Same reasons

United States - Same reasons

China - Same reasons

Japan - Same reasons

Australia - Same reasons

I could go on.

But the answers would surely be different for most.

But they would equally be "unjustifiable" in almost all cases.

So the next time somebody asks why Israel gets to put a few fanatics in semi-detached houses in the West Bank, its because of the coat of many colours. You're great, you are.At least Joseph got the Israelites out of Canaan...

I have a list of several nations that shouldn't exist.

Great Britain - It was superimposed over several different nations, including but not limited to - Scotland, Wales, Anglia, a portion of Ireland and several others - this was done through military conquest and at the expense of several indigenous populations.

Germany - Same reasons

France - Same reasons

Spain - Same reasons

UAR - Same reasons

United States - Same reasons

China - Same reasons

Japan - Same reasons

Australia - Same reasons

I could go on.

And that was the justification to give Arab land to Jews? But I thought we were now in the civilized era, with diplomacy and human rights and world justice and the UN and all that...

And that was the justification to give Arab land to Jews? But I thought we were now in the civilized era, with diplomacy and human rights and world justice and the UN and all that...

Doesn't make a difference, their claim to their land is equally as valid.

Israel, should it exist?

It's a trap!

http://blogs.chron.com/tmi/Toothy%20Beartrap.JPG

Doesn't make a difference, their claim to their land is equally as valid.So the claim of a foreigner who just arrived in the land is as valid as that of an inhabitant whose family has tilled and lived on the soil for millennia? And that it justifies cleansing?

Israel, should it exist?

The Zionist project was unwise.

As it stands, the destruction of Israel would probably not be a good thing, though - except under certain very specific replacement schemes.

So the claim of a foreigner who just arrived in the land is as valid as that of an inhabitant whose family has tilled and lived on the soil for millennia?


It's not just a foreigner walking onto some land which is densely populated and saying "nice land, i'll take it". The British gave them some desert which they owned which had little to no population at all, but at the time many Jews were already living there. Yes, when Israel began to expand there was a lot of conflict but this is pretty much the same as any other country whether or not it happened a millenia ago, a couple of centuries ago (like the USA) or half a century ago. It makes no difference.

The British gave them some desert which they owned which had little to no population at all

What are you talking about?

It was a good deed of the U.S. to help Israel, but let's get down to the basic facts:

1. Israel is the holy land to the Jews.

2. The whole Arabian Penninsula (that's probably a typo, I know) along with the rest of the Middle East is the holy land to the Muslims.

3. The Jews have lived in Israel for much longer than the Muslims.

4. The Muslims are much more enthusiastic about their religion. (I personally do not object to their enthusiasm, I believe sticking up for what you believe in is key to human progress)

5. The Muslims will NEVER give up their land.

6. The Jews have already given up their land, a few times.

Now, lets get to the historical facts:

7. The Christians were selfishly trying to regain the Holy Land during the Crusades in The Dark Ages. Did the Christians get anywhere?

8. Screw this list... the bottom line is both the Jews and the Muslims should both just accept each other's beliefs.

What are you talking about?

The British technically owned the land prior.

5. The Muslims will NEVER give up their land.

6. The Jews have already given up their land, a few times.

Justify these two.

It's not just a foreigner walking onto some land which is densely populated and saying "nice land, i'll take it". The British gave them some desert which they owned which had little to no population at all, but at the time many Jews were already living there. Yes, when Israel began to expand there was a lot of conflict but this is pretty much the same as any other country whether or not it happened a millenia ago, a couple of centuries ago (like the USA) or half a century ago. It makes no difference.What are you talking about? Palestine was unpopulated? The British owned Palestine? And nobody ever complained about the Jews already living there, the complaint is about those immigrating to Palestine to create a state there (which was of course equivalent with the desire of removing its current inhabitants).

The British technically owned the land prior.No. They were only supposed to administer it in trusteeship.

The British technically owned the land prior.

They administered it, yes, I know. (That is not the same as "owning", but nevermind.)

What specifically are you talking about? The Balfour Declaration? The General Assembly resolution that partitioned Palestine? What?

Because, if memory serves, Balfour didn't specify territory, and the GA resolution was the UN, not the British, and left the Jews with the majority of the land, in which lived a whole lot of Arabs.

And regardless, the decrees of imperialist powers aren't much of a justification.

And regardless, the decrees of imperialist powers aren't much of a justification.

Yes but the point is, it is no more or less legitamate then any other countries claim to independence.

Yes but the point is, it is no more or less legitamate then any other countries claim to independence.Others' errors legitimize your own?

Palestine was unpopulated?

The part the British "administered" had a very small population.


And nobody ever complained about the Jews already living there

Hardly.

Israel should exist but not to the extent which it does today. Originally it was meant to be much smaller, and for years they have continued to stress their strength and control and expand the borders into territory that should not be their's.

Others' errors legitimize your own?

No but if you believe that Israel shouldn't exist, you should believe that almost all other states shouldn't exist, pretty much making you an anarchist.

No but if you believe that Israel shouldn't exist, you should believe that almost all other states shouldn't exist, pretty much making you an anarchist.
ok, which other country was 'founded' 60 years ago by members of a religious group by pushing the inhabitants out of the land they arrived in and subsequently occupied the rest of the land so as to stop all further economic or cultural or social development of the former population in those 60 years?

and oh, did i mention this?...
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

ok, which other country was 'founded' 60 years ago by members of a religious group by pushing the inhabitants out of the land they arrived in and subsequently occupied the rest of the land so as to stop all further economic or cultural or social development of the former population in those 60 years?

So as long as it was done more then 60 years ago it's ok :rolleyes:

So as long as it was done more then 60 years ago it's ok :rolleyes:time makes right out of wrong? although those wronged are still alive? and it wasn't really done 60 years ago, it has been done for the last 60 years.

So the claim of a foreigner who just arrived in the land is as valid as that of an inhabitant whose family has tilled and lived on the soil for millennia? And that it justifies cleansing?

900,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries and fled to Israel after it was founded. How are they 'foreigners'?

and oh, did i mention this?...

Have you refuted IDF's Media Moniters page yet? Even if the quotes are genuine Ben-Gurion was just one man; should we take Hajj Amin al-Husseini to be representative of all Palestinians?

3. The Jews have lived in Israel for much longer than the Muslims.



Two problems with this, one I'm not wild on the ideas of a religious states. And secondly they haven't. The ancestors of some sections of the current arab peoples pre-dated the Jews in the area.

900,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries and fled to Israel after it was founded. How are they 'foreigners'?After Israel was founded there was war between Arabs and Jews. And those Jews are not the ones who immigrated en masse and subsequently founded Israel to purposely antagonize the Arabs.

The part the British "administered" had a very small population.

No, it didn't.

Until the 1948 war, there was a consistent Arab majority, and if you include the refugees, there is one to this day.

No, it didn't.

Until the 1948 war, there was a consistent Arab majority, and if you include the refugees, there is one to this day.

The majority doesn't mean the actual population was bigger.

The majority doesn't mean the actual population was bigger.

What point, exactly, are you making?

After Israel was founded there was war between Arabs and Jews. And those Jews are not the ones who immigrated en masse and subsequently founded Israel to purposely antagonize the Arabs.

There were plenty of Jews involved in the founding of Israel whose families had lived in the Middle East for generations, there's always been a significant Jewish presence in what is now Israel and Palestine.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the state of Israel was declared because the Jews wanted their own country, not simply to thumb their noses at the Arabs.

There were plenty of Jews involved in the founding of Israel whose families had lived in the Middle East for generations,

Not "plenty", the vast majority were immigrants.

And many (I think most, but I'm not sure) of those who had lived in the Middle East for generations were ardent anti-Zionists for religious reasons.

Should Isreal exist? God said so. America said so. Britian said so. And, Israel said so.

There were plenty of Jews involved in the founding of Israel whose families had lived in the Middle East for generations, there's always been a significant Jewish presence in what is now Israel and Palestine.between 5 and 10 percent. that changed when Jews started pouring into Palestine when Zionism became fashionable among Jews.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the state of Israel was declared because the Jews wanted their own country, not simply to thumb their noses at the Arabs.If they had just wanted their own country, they could have wanted it elsewhere. They knew that Palestine was already inhabited but they just didn't care that they would need space/soil to live there which would logically mean the removal of those inhabitants.

Should Isreal exist? God said so. America said so. Britian said so. And, Israel said so.

Isreal is real?

God said so.

No, God said that the Jews should be patient and wait for His deliverance, not prematurely attempt to escape their exile.

More precisely, it depends on your interpretation.

Isreal is real?

Israel.

The word in Hebrew is "yisrael" - three syllables.

The part the British "administered" had a very small population.And that means what? Alaska also has only a small population. So why don't you give that to the Jews?

Not "plenty", the vast majority were immigrants.

And many (I think most, but I'm not sure) of those who had lived in the Middle East for generations were ardent anti-Zionists for religious reasons.

I never said 'a majority', I'd consider 84,000 to be plenty. As I've already said, the population was swelled massively after the founding of Israel by 900,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries.

I never said 'a majority', I'd consider 84,000 to be plenty. As I've already said, the population was swelled massively after the founding of Israel by 900,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries.
And how many Jews immigrated into Palestine from, say, 1890 to 1947 ? And how many were there before and what percentage of the population was that respectively? And what was the percentage when the Balfour declaration was made in late 1917 ?

between 5 and 10 percent. that changed when Jews started pouring into Palestine when Zionism became fashionable among Jews.

Fashionable? Most of them were fleeing brutal persecution. A quarter of a million came between 1929 and 1939 to escape the rise of anti-semetism and Nazism in Europe.

If they had just wanted their own country, they could have wanted it elsewhere. They knew that Palestine was already inhabited but they just didn't care that they would need space/soil to live there which would logically mean the removal of those inhabitants.

There was plenty of room in the Mandate for Jews and Arabs to live without anyone having to force anyone else out, as was demonstrated by the considerable Arab immigration into the area.

No, God said that the Jews should be patient and wait for His deliverance, not prematurely attempt to escape their exile.

More precisely, it depends on your interpretation.

You do make good points. And, are correct in that my interpretation differs.
Indeed, its seems some have returned to the land without the acceptance of Christ.
However, the term "Jew" which comes from "Judean," a citizen of the former Kingdom of Judea, does not include all Israelites. The other 10 tribes of Israel that formed the kingdom of Israel during their divided time were scattered by the Assyrians. The continuing history of this age of mankind should prove interesting as far as how the other tribes will be returned to the land.

If were talking about the Palestinian issue, I would have to say the settlers are the problem, most of them are crazy ultra-nationalist racists who volunteer to live in such a dangerous area because they believe in a 'Greater Israel' and all this other Jewish superiority garbage. They routinely attack Palestinians in the West Bank, and with collaboration from the IDF guards, beat up those trying Palestinians waiting at the checkpoints to work in Jerusalem. They have even been noted to be attacked foreign journalists and tourists, by spitting at them and chanting racist slogans. Those Palestinians they don't like, they usually dob into the IDF guards to be taken aside and beaten. Their are many documented cases of this.

If you're wondering why people think you're anti-semitic idiot, then maybe you should read over the utter bullshit you posted right there. You sure do you like emotive words, though.

Indeed, its seems some have returned to the land without the acceptance of Christ.

That is not what I was referring to.

If you're wondering why people think you're anti-semitic idiot, then maybe you should read over the utter bullshit you posted right there. You sure do you like emotive words, though.

Um, his characterization of a large portion of the settlers is pretty much correct.

Indeed, plenty of Israelis would agree with him.

I have never understood point of creating some Palestinian state. There are like some 20 Arab states already, most of those without oil more or less poor. Why to create some new one which may easily split into two parts in some sort of civil war(in case West-Bank and Gaza are ruled by different groups). Just give west-bank to Jordania and Gaza to Egypt and both nice amount of money so they would be ready to accept the offer. There isn't any serious ethnical difference between palestinians and egyptians or palestinians and jordanians. Only point of creating Palestinian state is to keep Arabs as divided as possible(helps to keep them weak).

Olmedreca;12495887']I have never understood point of creating some Palestinian state. There are like some 20 Arab states already, most of those without oil more or less poor. Why to create some new one which may easily split into two parts in some sort of civil war(in case West-Bank and Gaza are ruled by different groups). Just give west-bank to Jordania and Gaza to Egypt and both nice amount of money so they would be ready to accept the offer. There isn't any serious ethnical difference between palestinians and egyptians or palestinians and jordanians. Only point of creating Palestinian state is to keep Arabs as divided as possible(helps to keep them weak).What about the Palestinian Arabs who once lived where Jews now live? What about the refugee camps all around Israel? What about the occupation and the Wall in the West Bank?

Israelis, or Jews, are not Israelites. And Palestinian Arabs descend from the selfsame people Jews claim to descend from. So cut the crap about who was first and referring to ancient times. The only relevant question is who actually lived in the land when Balfour gave into the Zionist ambitions in 1917, and who actually lived in the land when the UN started out planning the partition of Palestine.


And have you read what David ben Gurion said? He never wanted peace with the Arabs or share anything with them.

OK first 1917 it doesnt matter Isreal also belongs to the Arabs and they are welcome there . There like oh it belongs to Syria and stuff. AH no its theres. Would you rather live in the country thats rightfulloy yours or some elses

What about the Palestinian Arabs who once lived where Jews now live? What about the refugee camps all around Israel?

Still why to create another Arab state? Why not just give areas with Arab majority to already existing Arab states? Of course I understand logic of many arab states, more you have, smaller they are. Smaller they are, weaker they are. But I seriously believe that instead of creating another Arab state it would be better to give areas(im not going to argue where borders should be drawn, pointless waste of time) to already exitsing and more or less stable Arab states.
Note: my whole point is about giving areas that would be given to Palestinian state to Egypt and Jordania not how borders with israel should be exactly drawn.

Olmedreca;12495940']Why not just give areas with Arab majority to already existing Arab states?

Maybe because the Palestinians want to rule themselves?

Olmedreca;12495940']Still why to create another Arab state? Why not just give areas with Arab majority to already existing Arab states? Of course I understand logic of many arab states, more you have, smaller they are. Smaller they are, weaker they are. But I seriously believe that instead of creating another Arab state it would be better to give areas(im not going to argue where borders should be drawn, pointless waste of time) to already exitsing and more or less stable Arab states.
Note: my whole point is about giving areas that would be given to Palestinian state to Egypt and Jordania not how borders with israel should be exactly drawn.The question where the borders would be drawn and who rules what how, is essentially what would interest folks.

Israel, should it exist?

It does. Get over it.

I never said 'a majority', I'd consider 84,000 to be plenty. As I've already said, the population was swelled massively after the founding of Israel by 900,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries.


They weren't all expelled, and that took place over 20 years, the last wave arriving after the 1967 conflict.

Maybe because the Palestinians want to rule themselves?

Well, I haven't heard about any serious resistance aganist jordanians then Jordan controlled(IIRC even annexed) West-Bank. And there isn't any real ethnical difference between palestinians and jordanians or palestinians and egyptians, they are all very similar Arabs. Difference between those is only political(result of western colonial powers drawing borders as they liked).

The question where the borders would be drawn and who rules what how, is essentially what would interest folks.

Im not going to discuss exact borders here, as i have participated enough of such discussions to know main arguments and that how no agreement will be ever reached. My whole point is that areas that would be given to palestinian state, should be actualy given other neighbouring arab states as it would create some stability and better environment for stable buildup. I consider possibility that this new Palestinian state would end up in instability and maybe even civil war little bit too big to be ignored.

Um, his characterization of a large portion of the settlers is pretty much correct.

Indeed, plenty of Israelis would agree with him.

Yes, they are a rather horrific lot all told, and do the average Israeli no favours by association.

Olmedreca;12496026']Well, I haven't heard about any serious resistance aganist jordanians then Jordan controlled(IIRC even annexed) West-Bank.

And I haven't heard any eagerness to return to Jordan's control, either.

Difference between those is only political

And cultural.

Olmedreca;12496026']Im not going to discuss exact borders here, as i have participated enough of such discussions to know main arguments and that how no agreement will be ever reached. My whole point is that areas that would be given to palestinian state, should be actualy given other neighbouring arab states as it would create some stability and better environment for stable buildup. I consider possibility that this new Palestinian state would end up in instability and maybe even civil war little bit too big to be ignored.So if you give those lands to Egypt and Jordan, then in what borders? Which families will be free of Jewish occupation and which won't? Which families will have to give up all hope to return to where they lived 60 years ago? That's not just a abstract question of politics. Giving the land to someone will personally affect those living on it, you know.

Olmedreca;12496026']Well, I haven't heard about any serious resistance aganist jordanians then Jordan controlled(IIRC even annexed) West-Bank. And there isn't any real ethnical difference between palestinians and jordanians or palestinians and egyptians, they are all very similar Arabs. Difference between those is only political(result of western colonial powers drawing borders as they liked).



Im not going to discuss exact borders here, as i have participated enough of such discussions to know main arguments and that how no agreement will be ever reached. My whole point is that areas that would be given to palestinian state, should be actualy given other neighbouring arab states as it would create some stability and better environment for stable buildup. I consider possibility that this new Palestinian state would end up in instability and maybe even civil war little bit too big to be ignored.

Well Jordanians are now listed a minority within Jordan, so there are obviously differences there. Secondly, they have ceded all rights to Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank to the Palestinians. What needs to happen now is an Israeli withdrawal.

I fully realize that dividing Palestinian territories between Egypt and Jordan probably will not happen because of retarded political reasons but im also quite sure that Israeli-Palestina conflict will not be solved anytime soon anyway. Just I consider dividing palestinian territories between Jordan and Egypt most practical solution(that probably will not be used).

And cultural.

I admit that im not real expert of Middle east so could you explain little more detail what are cultural differences between West-Bank Palestinians and Jordanians, or Gaza Palestinians and Egyptians? I fully realize that you may be correct and I may be wrong but then I would like to know little more details.

So if you give those lands to Egypt and Jordan, then in what borders? Which families will be free of Jewish occupation and which won't? Which families will have to give up all hope to return to where they lived 60 years ago? That's not just a abstract question of politics. Giving the land to someone will personally affect those living on it, you know.

Well I find it easiest to build that idea around 1967 borders(if palestinian state is created then its borders probably wont be much different from 1967 borders) but it can be used with other versions too. You may even consider situation where Israel doesn't exist at all(not realistic possibility) and you need to drawn border between Jordan and Egypt.

Should Isreal exist? God said so. America said so. Britian said so. And, Israel said so.

None of whom really have a great history in terms of foreign policy, especially when dealing with indigenous populations.

Olmedreca;12496220']Well I find it easiest to build that idea around 1967 borders(if palestinian state is created then its borders probably wont be much different from 1967 borders) but it can be used with other versions too. You may even consider situation where Israel doesn't exist at all(not realistic possibility) and you need to drawn border between Jordan and Egypt.But Israel has already extended Jewish settlement far inside the 1967 border (the Green Line). And you are certainly aware that Israel is currently building a Wall far inside the West Bank to further diminish Palestinian territory? Again: Which families will be free of Jewish occupation and which won't?

The question was whether Israel has a right to exist. I ask on what that right would be based. The answer is "because it exists". Which is not an answer really. Because Palestinian Arabs existed long before Israel existed as such, and they are denied the right to exist as a country because of the imposed creation of a state of foreigners there, without the consent of the population in the area at issue.
I just cannot understand how people only look at today#s situation but willfully ignore how it came to this, starting with the irresponsible promises that Balfour made to the Zionists. Israel was forced upon the Arabs. By the British, by the UN, by the Jews. The only reason why westerners are so ready to ignore this injustice is because Arabs are Muslims and Jews are practically Europeans. And they also readily ignore that there are still surviving Arab families who wait to return home but cannot because of the foreigners now living on the soil that once made their livelihood.
Typical one-dimensional bullshitty leftist/neo-leftist rethoric. *rolls eyes*

Typical one-dimensional bullshitty leftist/neo-leftist rethoric. *rolls eyes*

...answered in an uniformative and buzz-word laden sentence, so typical of the right.

...answered in an uniformative and buzz-word laden sentence, so typical of the right.
Someone hasn't read through the thread too well now have they.


Plus who said anything about me being from the right? I just call it as I see it.

Israel would never stand on its own merits..
Israel stands on Billions of US money used to finance one of the most expensive military industrial complex..
These billions make US not safer. It creates more hate.. and thats is where terror coemes from.

Without that US welfare money.. there would be no Israel.. there would be no Palestinean genocide.

BTW if Israel was created in Europe or North America.. chances are the Iraq war would have not happened.
US taxpayers are financing this endless pithole.As I pointed out earlier in the thread, US military aid only began after Israel won the Six Day War. They're more than capable of standing on their own.I dont care about the starting date..
Its still a billions of my tax dollars wasted for nothing..
..and all this wasting-lifes-and-money has been going on for a lifetime.