NationStates Jolt Archive

Yet, how many times has the book been translated?

“Wherefore they spake to the king of Assyria, saying, The nations which thou hast removed, and placed in the cities of Samaria, know not the manner of the God of the land: therefore he hath sent lions among them, and, behold, they slay them, because they know not the manner of the God of the land” (2 Kings 17:26). [I like this one in particular. God sends lions to maul those who are ignorant of Him.]

Ya gotta love irony. (Chuckles)

Yet, how many times has the book been translated?

Depends on what section you're talking about. OT went from Hebrew pretty much straight to Latin, then to English/local tongues. Some parts of the NT started out in (probably) Aramaic, others in Latin, others still in Greek.

However, aside from a few famous (or infamous) gaffes, the translators seem to have done a reasonable job of relating what was actually in the original document.

“He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed” (Exodus 22:20).

“If thou shalt hear say . . . Certain men . . . saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword” (Deuteronomy 13:12-15).

“That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman” (2 Chronicles 15:13).

“And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak . . . because thou believest not my words” (Luke 1:20).

“And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost” (Acts 12:23).

“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” (Luke 19:27).

“Wherefore they spake to the king of Assyria, saying, The nations which thou hast removed, and placed in the cities of Samaria, know not the manner of the God of the land: therefore he hath sent lions among them, and, behold, they slay them, because they know not the manner of the God of the land” (2 Kings 17:26). [I like this one in particular. God sends lions to maul those who are ignorant of Him.]
Don't forget the OT stonings.

As long as the atheist doesn't try to convert me to being one, then I have no qualms with them.

That's pretty much how I feel about it, but the respect works BOTH ways. I'll respect your right to believe what you want as long as you respect my right to do likewise.

And please show me in here where I say that all atheists are evil?

Wasn't that the basic implication of your original post?

Atheists regularly use Christian values, whether or not they choose to accept it. An atheist who does not love his neighbor is evil. A Christian who does not love his neighbor is evil. An atheist who does not follow the categorical imperative where ethics are concerned is evil. So would be a Christian.

When you stop using Christian values, you become evil. No where in there is it implied that you must be a Christian to have Christian values.

So basically, Christianity, and only Christianity, is a perfect, completely flawless religion?

Modern thought and rationalism was brought about by a movement called the Enlightenment, which was a purely philosophical movement and had little to nothing to do with Christianity. On the contrary, these people went back to the golden days BEFORE Christianity pushed Europe into the Dark Ages.

Do you think that the Enlightenment would have happened if the unity of European Christendom hadn't repelled the Muslim invaders?

Before you start frothing at the mouth, let me just say that you're welcome for the right to speak a language other than Arabic, and for the right to criticize religion.

Wasn't that the basic implication of your original post?



No.

So basically, Christianity, and only Christianity, is a perfect, completely flawless religion?

No.

Do you think that the Enlightenment would have happened if the unity of European Christendom hadn't repelled the Muslim invaders?

Before you start frothing at the mouth, let me just say that you're welcome for the right to speak a language other than Arabic, and for the right to criticize religion.

I think the Enlightenment would have happened much sooner if Christians didn't get involved. It's funny that you mention the Age of Reason and Christianity in the same sentence.

That's pretty much how I feel about it, but the respect works BOTH ways. I'll respect your right to believe what you want as long as you respect my right to do likewise.

I would be doing you the ultimate disservice if I let you go your entire life without at least trying to warn you that you are in serious danger of swimming in a lake of fire for all time.

When I stand before the Throne, I would like to at least be able to offer that I tried to help some other people out of Hell. Even though I knew that they would ridicule me and treat me like a second-class intellect just for adhering to the majority western opinion that Christ is God, I tried.

I have exposed myself to you all of your criticisms [and undone them all], and I don't regret it. I only hope that some of you will approach the Bible with a more open mind in the future.

I consider this the end of this thread, which has been absolutely devoured by trolls.

Irony, thy name is Homoousia.

I would be doing you the ultimate disservice if I let you go your entire life without at least trying to warn you that you are in serious danger of swimming in a lake of fire for all time.



As long as I don't have to tip you for this service, say whatever you want.

I would be doing you the ultimate disservice if I let you go your entire life without at least trying to warn you that you are in serious danger of swimming in a lake of fire for all time.


Sorry, but the EAC has set up a contingency plan. By now, they'll have overrun heaven with their chariots of iron.

So basically, Christianity, and only Christianity, is a perfect, completely flawless religion?But of course...

Exactly.

A god confined to space-time and constrained to operating within the physical systems of our universe would be pretty pathetic; not worthy of being called a 'god'.

Well you also need to recognize that time is a force, like gravity. These are the only forces we know of and we are no where near completely understanding them. I mean it took us till Isaac Newton to even acknowledge gravity's presence. God may just be another natural sentient force, its not impossible, nor is it unlikely. Even now scientists are discovering that super dense matters maybe putting holes in time and space and that the force of gravity is actually beyond the dimensions of time and space. So if that gravitational theory is becoming widely accepted why not that our deity may be another force or even an ancient being that lives outside these forces that we still dont comprehend. I know its hard to believe that a being could survive for millions of years, but again time may not even be as relative as we may believe, specifically since we base time off of our sun. Our planet already has over thirty different calendars. I may be a catholic but I dont believe the entire universe was created in six days. I believe that each day may have been six or seven billion years who knows, we dont understand time. Perhaps "God" didnt even create time. Time might be a force that occured as a side effect of creation/Big Bang theory. I mean how do you tell the flow of time when there wasnt a single star in the universe.

I would be doing you the ultimate disservice if I let you go your entire life without at least trying to warn you that you are in serious danger of swimming in a lake of fire for all time.

When I stand before the Throne, I would like to at least be able to offer that I tried to help some other people out of Hell. Even though I knew that they would ridicule me and treat me like a second-class intellect just for adhering to the majority western opinion that Christ is God, I tried.

I have exposed myself to you all of your criticisms [and undone them all], and I don't regret it. I only hope that some of you will approach the Bible with a more open mind in the future.

I consider this the end of this thread, which has been absolutely devoured by trolls.

Okay, look. Atheists are not on your doorstep spitting in your face and criticizing your religion. And although I feel that Christians have recently become the butt of many jokes, telling people that they will go to hell if they don't believe what you believe doesn't exactly sway too many people.

Comprende?

I would be doing you the ultimate disservice if I let you go your entire life without at least trying to warn you that you are in serious danger of swimming in a lake of fire for all time.

When I stand before the Throne, I would like to at least be able to offer that I tried to help some other people out of Hell. Even though I knew that they would ridicule me and treat me like a second-class intellect just for adhering to the majority western opinion that Christ is God, I tried.

I have exposed myself to you all of your criticisms [and undone them all], and I don't regret it. I only hope that some of you will approach the Bible with a more open mind in the future.

I consider this the end of this thread, which has been absolutely devoured by trolls.

I'm gonna go ahead and repost this, just because I think you're an idiot because you ignore whenever somebody presents you with an argument you don't know anything about, get angry about said argument, and revert back to your original premise, that being: I'm only trying to help you.

Please let me know if you have read a bible at least once in your lifetime. The Law of Moses is not only inclusive of the Ten Commandments, but also dictates the number of steps you can walk on the Sabbath, which was and is still Saturday to followers of Judaism, and so on, etc ad nauseum.

And as for the Christian deity being a jealous one, I can quote you the bible passage where *it* says so.

Deuteronomy 4: 24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

And you know, just because Christians have had an astounding effect on the world's history, doesn't necessarily mean it was the best effect. Consider for a moment the implications of this.

1. History has been made the way it has been made.
2. Christians are a part of history.
3. History wouldn't have been the same without Christians.
4. Ergo, history has been made the way it has been made.

Feel free to replace the word history in this argument with philosophy, modern medicine, politics, really any word at all. This is an argument with the conclusion being the same as the premise. If history wasn't the way it was, it'd be different.

And as for my morality, who's to say it hasn't evolved with us as a species? Why does my morality have to come from another person at all, as opposed to the alternative I'm suggesting now. By the by, this alternative has been suggested many times before by many other people, just as your argument has been suggested many times before, and by much more tolerant people.

Many other species display a form of morality.



It appears that my morality was given to me by my common ancestor with the chimpanzee.

But you aren't really about helping anybody, are you? You're not about trying to actually help somebody see your side of the argument, you're more about some simplistic lip service to the conversions you as a Christian are supposed to aid in.

And the troll in this case, is *you*. You went fishing and caught a whopper that ended up biting back.

Way to go. :rolleyes:

Well you also need to recognize that time is a force, like gravity. These are the only forces we know of and we are no where near completely understanding them. I mean it took us till Isaac Newton to even acknowledge gravity's presence. God may just be another natural sentient force, its not impossible, nor is it unlikely. Even now scientists are discovering that super dense matters maybe putting holes in time and space and that the force of gravity is actually beyond the dimensions of time and space. So if that gravitational theory is becoming widely accepted why not that our deity may be another force or even an ancient being that lives outside these forces that we still dont comprehend. I know its hard to believe that a being could survive for millions of years, but again time may not even be as relative as we may believe, specifically since we base time off of our sun. Our planet already has over thirty different calendars. I may be a catholic but I dont believe the entire universe was created in six days. I believe that each day may have been six or seven billion years who knows, we dont understand time. Perhaps "God" didnt even create time. Time might be a force that occured as a side effect of creation/Big Bang theory. I mean how do you tell the flow of time when there wasnt a single star in the universe.
how is time a force? iirr time is a dimension.

Even now scientists are discovering that super dense matters maybe putting holes in time and space...

No. I believe you might be referring to this guy (http://euler.ciens.ucv.ve/matematicos/images/einstein.gif). He used to actualy theorize about things you say scientists are now discovering.

Where are the Cornies?!

I have exposed myself to you all of your criticisms [and undone them all], and I don't regret it. I only hope that some of you will approach the Bible with a more open mind in the future.

No, you've undone our criticisms by yelling the equivolant of "Are too!" in our faces. No. This isn't argument; this isn't reasoning - this is just yelling, and you are doing us and Christians a disservice by telling us that we will all burn in hell for all eternity if we don't believe what you believe.

Go work on being a better Jehovah's witness and stop being such flamebait, you troll.

No. I believe you might be referring to this guy (http://euler.ciens.ucv.ve/matematicos/images/einstein.gif). He used to actualy theorize about things you say scientists are now discovering.this guy's theories are 100 years old, and science has moved ahead since then. and iirr the guy was never a fan of black holes...

And the troll in this case, is *you*. You went fishing and caught a whopper that ended up biting back.

Way to go. :rolleyes:

This bears replying to because it is simply silly.

People here have come right out and said that my religion is a superstition, that it's stupid, that I'm stupid, that Christianity is evil, etc., etc. I don't need to go back and look for each specific post because, sadly, probably everyone on this message board agrees with those sentiments.

If it makes me a troll to become idignant when a published author puts his insulting words out on the greatest forum for international discussion conceivable [the Internet] and I reply in a way that disagrees with some of you, then I am a troll. It is my right as a citizen in a democratic country and my duty as a Christian to put in my two cents worth into this issue.

The people who attempted to make historical arguments against Christianity all revealed a complete misunderstanding of history that probably came from the pages of "The End of Faith." The people who attempted to make philisophical arguments all dragged out tired old standard arguments that have standard refutations that I could as easily get my copy and pasting from wikipedia, as more than one of you did (without citing it, which I believe is called plagiarism in some circles) during this discussion.

The "whopper that bit back" is a pretty big name to give to yourselves when no one actually presented a substantive argument that wasn't either meaningless ad hominem (whether or not some Middle Ages Popes were militaristic or not has no evidentiary relationship to the truth of Christ), personal attacks ("that's just your bypass acting up again," or whatever), or boring arguments that have never convinced anybody ("the universe came from a bunch of other universes, which have just gone on forever! Why? Because a physicist said so! Screw asking him for the empiricism that he demands of all conflicting points of view!").

gg.

this guy's theories are 100 years old, and science has moved ahead since then. and iirr the guy was never a fan of black holes...

Well, he's the one who started the whole "space/time" relation... IE theory of relativity. I was just pointing it out; I wasn't saying that he was the one who invented all these things.

Although, if he had discovered some kind of anti-aging potion... :D

God is stupid. "Three that are as one". Stupid.

The bible is stupid.

It has been changed, edited, tinkered, translated, corrupted and complemented so much in the last 2000 years that the result is nothing but bullshit.

Meaning everyone that believes in the bible is stupid.

God is stupid. "Three that are as one". Stupid.Well, that's the Christians' idea, not necessarily any god's.

The bible is stupid. the theological part of it, definitely

It has been changed, edited, tinkered, translated, corrupted and complemented so much in the last 2000 years that the result is nothing but bullshit.such hard words...

Meaning everyone that believes in the bible is stupid.and they say that I was lacking pc... :p

People here have come right out and said that my religion is a superstition, that it's stupid, that I'm stupid, that Christianity is evil, etc., etc. I don't need to go back and look for each specific post because, sadly, probably everyone on this message board agrees with those sentiments.

uhh, not... you might want to closely read some posts that i and Congo--Kinshasa made

If it makes me a troll to become idignant when a published author puts his insulting words out on the greatest forum for international discussion conceivable [the Internet] and I reply in a way that disagrees with some of you, then I am a troll. It is my right as a citizen in a democratic country and my duty as a Christian to put in my two cents worth into this issue.

arguing against someone that has presented their ideas on the internet is one thing. yelling back and saying that they are not respecting your ideas when all they are doing is making a counterpoint is another. the latter makes you a troll, not the former.

The people who attempted to make historical arguments against Christianity all revealed a complete misunderstanding of history that probably came from the pages of "The End of Faith." The people who attempted to make philisophical arguments all dragged out tired old standard arguments that have standard refutations that I could as easily get my copy and pasting from wikipedia, as more than one of you did (without citing it, which I believe is called plagiarism in some circles) during this discussion.

a)its not plagarism. we're not in class. sticking to university codes of conduct in a debate forum is stupid. let me know when you roll off a citation page during your refutations of other arguments so you don't take someone else's ideas, then TG me

b) if they are making such easy arguments, then why can't you refute them instead of whining at them? oh, right... youre a troll. you arent here to debate - youre here to say that you are right, no matter what counterpoint anyone makes

The "whopper that bit back" is a pretty big name to give to yourselves when no one actually presented a substantive argument that wasn't either meaningless ad hominem (whether or not some Middle Ages Popes were militaristic or not has no evidentiary relationship to the truth of Christ), personal attacks ("that's just your bypass acting up again," or whatever), or boring arguments that have never convinced anybody ("the universe came from a bunch of other universes, which have just gone on forever! Why? Because a physicist said so! Screw asking him for the empiricism that he demands of all conflicting points of view!").

gg.

okay. fine. just like my last quote...

if these arguments are so easily refuted, why don't you do it instead of whining about us not listening to you?!

this guy's theories are 100 years old, and science has moved ahead since then. and iirr the guy was never a fan of black holes...

His theory predicted their existence, not certain if he was a fan or not.

This bears replying to because it is simply silly.

People here have come right out and said that my religion is a superstition, that it's stupid, that I'm stupid, that Christianity is evil, etc., etc. I don't need to go back and look for each specific post because, sadly, probably everyone on this message board agrees with those sentiments.Translation: I don't need to provide proof because I believe that's how you all feel. What is it with you Xians and your persecution complex? Sweet zombie Jesus it must suck to be so oppressed all the time.

If it makes me a troll to become idignant when a published author puts his insulting words out on the greatest forum for international discussion conceivable [the Internet] and I reply in a way that disagrees with some of you, then I am a troll. It is my right as a citizen in a democratic country and my duty as a Christian to put in my two cents worth into this issue. No, being indignant is fine, declaring that all atheists are immoral and untrustworthy makes you a troll.

The people who attempted to make historical arguments against Christianity all revealed a complete misunderstanding of history that probably came from the pages of "The End of Faith." The people who attempted to make philisophical arguments all dragged out tired old standard arguments that have standard refutations that I could as easily get my copy and pasting from wikipedia, as more than one of you did (without citing it, which I believe is called plagiarism in some circles) during this discussion. What argument? Anyone who knows history is well aware of the tyranny and slaughter that has followed dogmatic faith around. Personality cults, religions, totalitarian regimes.

The "whopper that bit back" is a pretty big name to give to yourselves when no one actually presented a substantive argument that wasn't either meaningless ad hominem (whether or not some Middle Ages Popes were militaristic or not has no evidentiary relationship to the truth of Christ), personal attacks ("that's just your bypass acting up again," or whatever), or boring arguments that have never convinced anybody ("the universe came from a bunch of other universes, which have just gone on forever! Why? Because a physicist said so! Screw asking him for the empiricism that he demands of all conflicting points of view!").

gg.

You say it's meaningless because you refuse to even entertain the idea that you're wrong, judgmental and a pretty good walking stereotype of a fundie.

Totter along now kid, the grown ups here are tired of your ilk. When you want to come back and actually debate feel free.

okay, im done...

*grabs marshmellows*

now... for the roast of tonight! :D

:sniper:

His theory predicted their existence, not certain if he was a fan or not.There are some conclusions of his theories that he never understood or agreed.
I recall someone saying that after 1923 he should better have gone fishing...

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

Just because you believe something is real doesn't make it real. The man who assassinated Verwoerd, do you think he ACTUALLY had a talking tapeworm in his stomach telling him to kill things? God is the biggest paranoid delusion in the history of mankind. Now if you want to go play with your imaginary friend, you go ahead, but you're pushing religion on us, we're not pushing atheism on you. And it's funny you say that the army trains atheists. Isn't the book of Christ all about NOT killing people? Man, this fool amuses me. You should have your own TV show.

God is stupid. "Three that are as one". Stupid.

The bible is stupid.

It has been changed, edited, tinkered, translated, corrupted and complemented so much in the last 2000 years that the result is nothing but bullshit.

Meaning everyone that believes in the bible is stupid.

You're just stooping to Homoousia's level.

No, being indignant is fine, declaring that all atheists are immoral and untrustworthy makes you a troll.

Agreed.

Just because you believe something is real doesn't make it real. The man who assassinated Verwoerd, do you think he ACTUALLY had a talking tapeworm in his stomach telling him to kill things? God is the biggest paranoid delusion in the history of mankind. Now if you want to go play with your imaginary friend, you go ahead, but you're pushing religion on us, we're not pushing atheism on you. And it's funny you say that the army trains atheists. Isn't the book of Christ all about NOT killing people? Man, this fool amuses me. You should have your own TV show.
talking tapeworm in his stomach telling him to kill things? you're watching too much star gate crap...

Totter along now kid, the grown ups here are tired of your ilk. When you want to come back and actually debate feel free.

Yeah. And don't ask your mommy and daddy to help.

There are some conclusions of his theories that he never understood or agreed.
I recall someone saying that after 1923 he should better have gone fishing...

He also was not a fan of quantum mechanics.

His statement about god not rolling the dice was in many ways an attack on the probability mechanics that underly quantum.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

Amen. I'm with you, brother. :D

This Carrier feller is under conviction, and doesn't want to deal with it. He doesn't want to face the fact that he will stand before God and give account of his life, so he pretends God doesn't exist.

Romans 1:28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

He's rebelling against the insistence of peoples imaginary friends into our daily lives.

And WE are rebelling against the insistence of what you call "our imaginary friends" OUT of OUR lives. We choose to acknowledge God's existence and worship Him; do NOT deny us that right. If YOU don't want to worship Him or acknowledge His existence, that's fine with us; just don't get mad at us just because WE DO.

And giving weapons to the godless-the god fearing have been starting enough wars over their imaginary friends for years, maybe it's time to try giving it to someone who doesn't have a sky wizard telling him who to kill.

You want to give weapons to godless people - people who worship NO deity and consequently have no moral standards and therefore NO OBJECTIONS AGAINST KILLING ANYBODY?

You want to give weapons to godless people - people who worship NO deity and consequently have no moral standards and therefore NO OBJECTIONS AGAINST KILLING ANYBODY?

Funny, considering your high "moral standard" never seem to stop you Xians from going out and killing people with NO OBJECTIONS. Jesus wept.

And WE are rebelling against the insistence of what you call "our imaginary friends" OUT of OUR lives. We choose to acknowledge God's existence and worship Him; do NOT deny us that right.

Then do NOT deny us the right to not worship him.

You want to give weapons to godless people - people who worship NO deity and consequently have no moral standards and therefore NO OBJECTIONS AGAINST KILLING ANYBODY?

Yeah, that's it. The fact that someone doesn't worship a deity automatically means they have no conscience. :rolleyes:

You want to give weapons to godless people - people who worship NO deity and consequently have no moral standards and therefore NO OBJECTIONS AGAINST KILLING ANYBODY?

Morals don't come from God. Amazingly enough, there are reasons not to kill besides "magic skyman will punish me if I do". You're nothing but a sociopath.

You're just stooping to Homoousia's level.


No, I´m just telling the truth.

And what is worst, Bible mythology isnt even original. The greeks were much more creative and wise for that matter. You can learn more from greek mythology.

Btw, I find more truth in the 100 pages of Lao Tzu´s Tao Te Ching than in all the hundreds of pages in the bible.

You want to give weapons to godless people - people who worship NO deity and consequently have no moral standards and therefore NO OBJECTIONS AGAINST KILLING ANYBODY?

Christians don't seem to have much of a problem with killing people

Amen. I'm with you, brother. :D

This Carrier feller is under conviction, and doesn't want to deal with it. He doesn't want to face the fact that he will stand before God and give account of his life, so he pretends God doesn't exist.

Romans 1:28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

That's just what I expected. Whenever somebody disputes your religion, you try to prove that you're right by pulling a quote out of your own religious books. Plenty of Christians have sense, and you're not one of 'em.

Look, I'm semi-religious (not Christian, I'm actually Jain, but leaning towards a more Buddhist point-of-view) but I think you're completely and conveniently ignoring the Crusades (after which Christians discovered the glory of Muslim civilization) and the Dark Ages. Isn't it ironic that the era in which religion ruled was known by that name?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [...]"

The OP's entire "atheists in the military" point was just blown out of the water, and in proper MLA formatting too. If you just have morals to please your God, that's not morals, that's SUCKING UP. If there was no God, would you still have morals (not wantonly kill people, etc.)? Most atheists do (excepting those on this forum), but I'm thinking you would say no, based on what I've seen.

God is stupid. "Three that are as one". Stupid.

The bible is stupid.

It has been changed, edited, tinkered, translated, corrupted and complemented so much in the last 2000 years that the result is nothing but bullshit.

Meaning everyone that believes in the bible is stupid.

Well, I don't like the Bible, but maybe you should keep a more open mind.

Well, I don't like the Bible, but maybe you should keep a more open mind.

Actualy, I´ve already readed it.

And I had christian education when I was 8 to 12. I used to go to church every sunday and two times a week to religious classes. My parents were friends of the local priest, and they helped comunity couples solve their family problems throuhg counseling. So every week we went to someone´s houses and gathered there.

To tell you the truth, all the knowledge I got from it was one of the main reasons why I became an atheist. All the shit is just too dumb. Of course, when I was that age, I was also studying a lot of science, and my favorite hobby was dinossaurs (yes, I was a geek kid).

So, you could say dinossaurs was another reason why I became an atheist. There are no dinossaurs in the bible :D

From that, I spent about 6 years trying to prove that christianity was wrong. Then I realized christianity is just one from hundreds of religions. So, I started researching into buddhism, taoism, hinduism, islam and other minor religions. I also readed most of the important books on these religions, like the Tao te Ching (taoism), Theravada books (Way of the Ancients Buddhism), the Vedas and Bagavhad Gita (Hinduism) and other books and articles.

I thought I had finaly found a religion I could follow properly, and that was buddhism. So I started to become a buddhist, and almost became a monk. Actually, I came very close to it. It was so logical it had to be true. BUt it had a major flaw, and that was that the whole foundation of buddhism is to stop you from coming back to earth after death.

But I dont believe in reincarnation.
So, I stoped being a buddhist. Then I realized I couldnt base reality on anything created so far, so I had to find the truth somewhere else. That is why I went to physics, chemistry, psychology, philosophy, biology, and that was mainly the reason why I went to college in a Psychology major degree.

But after 4 years of college I´ve found out that psychology doenst hold all the answers I needed, nor philosophy. I needed something concrete. So that is why I decided I had to do medical school, because otherwise I wouldnt find the answers. So now I´m studying to get into med school, where I hope Ill bee able to get into research, and If I´m lucky, get the answers I need before I die.

So yes, the bible is quite stupid.

And WE are rebelling against the insistence of what you call "our imaginary friends" OUT of OUR lives. We choose to acknowledge God's existence and worship Him; do NOT deny us that right. If YOU don't want to worship Him or acknowledge His existence, that's fine with us; just don't get mad at us just because WE DO.


Obviously, we aren't denying you any rights. We aren't rebelling and creating a new constitution imprisoning or killing Christians. You are imagining threats that do not exist and never will.

Oh, and our refusal to worship your God is obviously not fine with you; you clearly support a ban of atheists (and those with religions other than Christianity, I presume) in the military, which amounts to oppression and prejudice. You pretend to be open-minded, but you have proven to us that you aren't.

And the multiverse theory is just science fiction that happens to fit the facts. There is neither math nor observational data behind it; it would be as scientific as asserting that unicorns exist, but we just can't observe or interact with them.

Please figure out what 'science' means before you go pretending that every atheist physicist's armchair fantasies qualify as science just because it comes from a philisophical disposition with which you are inclined to agree by your fear of being held responsible for your own actions by an all-powerful arbiter.

:p

And God is just theology that either happens to fit the facts or is fabricated to do so. There is neither math nor observational data that can be sufficiently backed up behind it; it would be as scientific as asserting that unicorns exist, but we just can't observe or interact with them.


from my point of view you seem to be in fear of this "all-powerfull arbiter".


personally i belive that what happens after death is decided by what ever estabelished and defined belifs you happen to belong to.


and yes im feeding the troll because i want to =)

And WE are rebelling against the insistence of what you call "our imaginary friends" OUT of OUR lives. We choose to acknowledge God's existence and worship Him; do NOT deny us that right. If YOU don't want to worship Him or acknowledge His existence, that's fine with us; just don't get mad at us just because WE DO.

I don't think that people really get mad at you for believing in God. It's the fact that some people are so stuck up about it, so mindlessly convinced that what the teachings of a handful of guys 2000 years dead is the truth, the only truth there is, and ever will be.

I mean, fuck. Jesus would have shot himself.

You want to give weapons to godless people - people who worship NO deity and consequently have no moral standards and therefore NO OBJECTIONS AGAINST KILLING ANYBODY?

The US is at least 60% Christian, and more than half of them had no objections with going to war with Iraq, and still support it even though it's killed thousands of people already. Plus, all those good Christian soldiers who signed up to get ported off to kick some Muslim ass.

Better yet, the Middle East is almost completely Muslim, and a good number of them have no qualm with planting IEDs in the side of the road and explode a trooper or two to hell.

I'm agnostic myself, but you won't see me killing anybody.

I've got a simple question for all theists:

Who created God?


and stop shoving your religion down my throat

I do not cram my atheism down yours.

Talking about christianity is useless.

Right now there is a guy living in Africa who will never learn about our catholic god through his entire life, and his life will just be as shitty as ours.

Now, if god was real, why doesnt he enforce his religion down on everyone? Freedom of choice? I doubt a guy in the middle of the African Jungle has the freedom to become a catholic or not.

Now, will he go to heaven because of that? Will he go to hell because his family, his parents, his elders and everyone around him believe that if you sacrifice a chicken your child will be free from AIDS?

As you can see, talking about god is useless and nothing but shit. The only person that can believe in it is an ignorant hick who has never left his town or state, and believes life everywhere on the world is just like his nice small hometown.

If Christians would "burn everything that could catch fire," I invite you to explain why it is that Copernicus dedicated his work on the true nature of the orbits of planets to the Pope.


uhm i must have missed something.... didnt the church threaten to burn him at the stake if he didnt say his life work was false? or was that just his book?

i cant remeber if he did renounce his belives about the planetary orbits or not.

Now, if god was real, why doesnt he enforce his religion down on everyone?

Sadly, some people interpret events on earth, such as the deaths of troops in Iraq, as God "punishing" us.

To the various trolls in this thread:
Atheists not only don't not have morals, we probably have better morals then you do, because you are content to ignore the many, many passages where either God or the Israelites kill people because of some stupid reason, like not believing in their god. In fact, God is worse then the Israelites, because he kills people for even stupider reasons then believing in some other God.
He also kills people for complaining that he kills people (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2016:41-50;&version=31;), for instance.

how is time a force? iirr time is a dimension.

Time is nether.

Time is a measurement of change. what that change is is different depending on who you ask.

In String thread, all of us exist in 4d, but can only see 3ds. Thus, we only see a 'slice' of time; like a thin slice of a finger if you cut it paper thin. Therefore, Time is the measurement of change between slices.

On the other hand, theirs also 4+ spacial dimensions we can't see ether.

I would be doing you the ultimate disservice if I let you go your entire life without at least trying to warn you that you are in serious danger of swimming in a lake of fire for all time.

How do I swim in fire?!

These arguments are pointless. We have Freedom of Religion or not. I'm a devout Christian, but I do not try and covert Athestits. I expect them to give me the same respect. Furthermore, I am a newly found Christian, I wasn't raised that way, and therefore I have seen every argument out there. I could have been atheist. I chose not to be.

Is this thread still going on?

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/928/makeitstopel5.png (http://imageshack.us)

This bears replying to because it is simply silly.

People here have come right out and said that my religion is a superstition, that it's stupid, that I'm stupid, that Christianity is evil, etc., etc. I don't need to go back and look for each specific post because, sadly, probably everyone on this message board agrees with those sentiments.

If it makes me a troll to become idignant when a published author puts his insulting words out on the greatest forum for international discussion conceivable [the Internet] and I reply in a way that disagrees with some of you, then I am a troll. It is my right as a citizen in a democratic country and my duty as a Christian to put in my two cents worth into this issue.

The people who attempted to make historical arguments against Christianity all revealed a complete misunderstanding of history that probably came from the pages of "The End of Faith." The people who attempted to make philisophical arguments all dragged out tired old standard arguments that have standard refutations that I could as easily get my copy and pasting from wikipedia, as more than one of you did (without citing it, which I believe is called plagiarism in some circles) during this discussion.

The "whopper that bit back" is a pretty big name to give to yourselves when no one actually presented a substantive argument that wasn't either meaningless ad hominem (whether or not some Middle Ages Popes were militaristic or not has no evidentiary relationship to the truth of Christ), personal attacks ("that's just your bypass acting up again," or whatever), or boring arguments that have never convinced anybody ("the universe came from a bunch of other universes, which have just gone on forever! Why? Because a physicist said so! Screw asking him for the empiricism that he demands of all conflicting points of view!").

gg.

You can become indignant all you want, however, your choice of forums on which to post was rather strange. While you did post a link--an article of which I was unaware--the way in which you ranted was rather childish and imprudent.

We cannot judge a god based on his followers? Not only popes were militaristic in their views on other faiths, many so-called Christians were as well.

Take for instance Tertullian:
You are fond of spectacles, expect the greatest of all spectacles, the last and eternal judgement of the universe. How shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs, and fancied god, groaning in the lower abyss of darkness; so many magistrates, who persecuted the name of the Lord, liquefying in fiercer fires than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sage philosophers blushing in red-hot flames with the deluded scholars; so many celebrated poets trembling before the tribunal of Christ ...

Thanks for your concern, Tert, and thanks for both the amazing sado-masochistic view you lent your fellow Christians to come.

And the "truth" of Christ?
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Compared with...
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,

So, pray tell, which lineage is correct?

And while we're on the subject of the origins of the universe . . . The Big Bang could be correct for all we know, and it is certainly an acceptable choice for many people in the scientific community. Now, considering I'm not a particle physicist, or an astro-physicist, I cannot give first hand accounts on any of the research being done. However, that is not the point of science, to argue and dicker over how credible the scientist is? Sounds like a soap opera. Achievable, reproducible results.are the key here, and science has had much more luck with reproducibility with particle accelerators than I dare say any theologian has had with the creation, or any aspect of religion apart from communion on the wrong Sabbath.

What was it you said about us thanking you later at the gates of judgement? Were we supposed to thank you on behalf of the philosophers, artists, and writers we'll see in hell? If the judgement were to occur, I submit to you that you'd be raptured for your blind faith, while I waited out for judgement and my eventual sentence to hell, where I can thank Plato, Socrates, Neitczhe(bah, I can never spell his name), and Freud, as well as many other numerous souls whose lack of faith allowed them to produce modern philosophy and whose courage to stand up to the Vatican allowed us to benefit.

I hope that you'll come to respect others' opinions more in the future, but, seeing as how that's unlikely, I hope you'll be kinder and gentler towards your fellow men.

And WE are rebelling against the insistence of what you call "our imaginary friends" OUT of OUR lives. We choose to acknowledge God's existence and worship Him; do NOT deny us that right. If YOU don't want to worship Him or acknowledge His existence, that's fine with us; just don't get mad at us just because WE DO.



You want to give weapons to godless people - people who worship NO deity and consequently have no moral standards and therefore NO OBJECTIONS AGAINST KILLING ANYBODY?

there are objections to killing people? :confused:
maybe I should stop shooting at random persons on the street then, but it opens my appettite before eating babies...

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

Whoa, back up there buddy. Your talking about one guy. I would say its safe to assume your christian yes? Well now if that ain't the most notorious religion in all of history for DEMANDING you belief what they belief and most commonly are willing to enforce that with... well force. They are also big into believing that they are the ONLY right way and that all others are wrong. I don't know where they are ranking now but it was not that long ago the hate group, I might add a christian hate group, called Christian Identity was top of the list of the FBI's hate groups in the U.S. Point and case being, you are talking about how you know this and know that, when this atheist fellow is only doing the same exact thing. You my good sir are quite the hypocrite. I mean when yo say the word god what exactly do you mean? Your god? The christian god? Or for that matter what are you saying when you say religion? Yours? That is an awfully short sighted view on things. And what of this godless crap your talking about? What are you trying to say, everyone who has ever decided that religion was not for him had no point in life and was just horribly miserable? I have quite a few friends who are atheists and they are just fine. If you choose to be christian, which to me, and hopefully anyone who knows its history, is a terrible mark on society, keep your beliefs to yourself and don't be trying to call people out as though since they don't belief in your god they therefore can't care about anything. Expand your mind a little. Also, in summarization of the opening two sentences to this, its just one guy what the hell do you care what he thinks. If he is so wrong in your opinion then let him be wrong.

12 Take heed to thy self, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their alters, break their images and cut down their groves:

I thought this applies to believers of other faiths, not to non-believers. ;)

Oh well. It's nice to be an atheist, I don't have to repent when I make a mistake about a holy book.

So basically, Christianity, and only Christianity, is a perfect, completely flawless religion?

No, you mistake our Homoousia. He says that Orthodoxes, Armenians, Copts, Hussites, Waldenses, and Catholics are wrong, too. Just his "Reformed Christianity" is the perfect religion, in his opinion. And I'm sure that, if we would inquire a bit about it, he'd start singling out the Reformed Churches he hates.

I thought this applies to believers of other faiths, not to non-believers. ;)

I'm assuming this is some form of sarcasm, but in case it isn't and for those who might not understand a believer of other faiths is considered to be as much of an unbeliever as an atheist.

Time is the measurement of change between slices.

Time as a parameter? Quite Galileian/Newtonian...

In special relativity, time becomes a full-fledged dimension of the space/time, like the three space dimensions. Since the geometry of the space/time is quite different from the standard euclidean 3d geometry, you have that the time plays a role somewhat different from the space dimensions - and it's linked to the universal constant c (lightspeed in vacuum).
To be accurate:
in 3d euclidean space, the distance between point (x,y,z) and the origin of the frame of reference is the square root of x^2 + y^2 + z^2 .
in 4d relativistic spacetime, the "distance" between event (t,x,y,z) and the origin of the frame of reference is the square root of (c*t)^2 - x^2 - y^2 - z^2. This leads to a totally different geometry, of course.

String theories are still too theoretically underdeveloped for us to start bitching about epistemology. Really.

How do I swim in fire?!

Wear an asbestos swimsuit.

I'm assuming this is some form of sarcasm, but in case it isn't and for those who might not understand a believer of other faiths is considered to be as much of an unbeliever as an atheist.

You never can know: religions (expecially judaism and christianity) are renowned for byzantine-style interpretations.

:D :D

So yes, the bible is quite stupid.

I wouldn't stretch that so far.

The bible is a collection of myths and teachings, recorded by people who died about 2 millennia ago on the average. I personally find it interesting, because it allows me to understand a little better some of the people that live on this planet.

Stupid are those people who follow the teachings of some people that died 2 millennia ago BLINDLY. Shutting off the ability of critical thinking is the ultimate idiocy.

Luckily, not ALL christians choose to stop thinking.

Right now there is a guy living in Africa who will never learn about our catholic god through his entire life, and his life will just be as shitty as ours.

Now, if god was real, why doesnt he enforce his religion down on everyone? Freedom of choice? I doubt a guy in the middle of the African Jungle has the freedom to become a catholic or not.

Now, will he go to heaven because of that? Will he go to hell because his family, his parents, his elders and everyone around him believe that if you sacrifice a chicken your child will be free from AIDS?


Ask Pope Natzinger. I bet he'll say he's going to hell for worshipping an idol.
He just said that the EU not putting a piece about "christian roots" in the constitutional treaty is "apostasy". This guy might be coming from Bavaria: but I bet he comes from XII century Bavaria.

Ask Pope Natzinger. I bet he'll say he's going to hell for worshipping an idol.
He just said that the EU not putting a piece about "christian roots" in the constitutional treaty is "apostasy". This guy might be coming from Bavaria: but I bet he comes from XII century Bavaria.

how can that be apostasy when a state has no state religion?

Do you think that the Enlightenment would have happened if the unity of European Christendom hadn't repelled the Muslim invaders?

Before you start frothing at the mouth, let me just say that you're welcome for the right to speak a language other than Arabic, and for the right to criticize religion.

Oh, so it was Christianity then that repelled Islam... and here I was thinking it was Austria repelling the Ottoman Empire! Silly me.
And Christianity did not give anyone the right to criticise religion, on the contrary. Remember the ten commandments? The bit about having to worship god, not being allowed to worship any other god, and not being allowed to criticise god? Very tolerant, enlightened and encouraging indeed.

This bears replying to because it is simply silly.

People here have come right out and said that my religion is a superstition, that it's stupid, that I'm stupid, that Christianity is evil, etc., etc. I don't need to go back and look for each specific post because, sadly, probably everyone on this message board agrees with those sentiments.

If it makes me a troll to become idignant when a published author puts his insulting words out on the greatest forum for international discussion conceivable [the Internet] and I reply in a way that disagrees with some of you, then I am a troll. It is my right as a citizen in a democratic country and my duty as a Christian to put in my two cents worth into this issue.

The people who attempted to make historical arguments against Christianity all revealed a complete misunderstanding of history that probably came from the pages of "The End of Faith." The people who attempted to make philisophical arguments all dragged out tired old standard arguments that have standard refutations that I could as easily get my copy and pasting from wikipedia, as more than one of you did (without citing it, which I believe is called plagiarism in some circles) during this discussion.

The "whopper that bit back" is a pretty big name to give to yourselves when no one actually presented a substantive argument that wasn't either meaningless ad hominem (whether or not some Middle Ages Popes were militaristic or not has no evidentiary relationship to the truth of Christ), personal attacks ("that's just your bypass acting up again," or whatever), or boring arguments that have never convinced anybody ("the universe came from a bunch of other universes, which have just gone on forever! Why? Because a physicist said so! Screw asking him for the empiricism that he demands of all conflicting points of view!").

gg.

You came here flaming atheists and spouting religious nonsense. People here reacted accordingly and put you in your place, outing you as ignorant, arrogant, self-righteous, hateful, condescending, narrow-minded and, in short, a troll.

Nobody here will deny that Christianity was an influence on the Western world, but claiming that it enabled the Western world to become what it is today is like saying that Nazi Germany allowed Europe to become what it is today.

And Christianity did not give anyone the right to criticise religion, on the contrary. Remember the ten commandments? The bit about having to worship god, not being allowed to worship any other god, and not being allowed to criticise god? Very tolerant, enlightened and encouraging indeed.

Not to mention the part about not killing.

Atheism is simply the most logical path to me. There are too many inconsistencies in the Bible and other religious works for me to accept them on a logical basis... therefor I reject them. There is no god.

talking tapeworm in his stomach telling him to kill things? you're watching too much star gate crap...

Umm... no... that ACTUALLY happened.

Not to mention the part about not killing.

Atheism is simply the most logical path to me. There are too many inconsistencies in the Bible and other religious works for me to accept them on a logical basis... therefor I reject them. There is no god.

So what is there? Nothing? You to me just seem afraid of something higher than you telling you what to do.

No, we're not afraid of a higher presence, because that would mean we acknowledge this presence's existence, so in short: we don't fear what (we don't believe) doesn't exist.
Oh, and I'm Buddhist, just so anyone asked.

No, we're not afraid of a higher presence, because that would mean we acknowledge this presence's existence, so in short: we don't fear what (we don't believe) doesn't exist.
Oh, and I'm Buddhist, just so anyone asked.

Some of them *seem* to be. They just seem to not like the rules.

So what is there? Nothing? You to me just seem afraid of something higher than you telling you what to do.
Exactly, there is nothing.

You (in the sense of all religious people) seem to just be afraid to do anything without someone holding your hand, Even if your holding the hand of your fictional friend.

Hey! Agression! Fowl! Fictional friends are nice!
The don't age, eat, poo, break things, die, reproduce, etc.
They are superb!
Just like that Dreden Dolls song, "Coin-Operated Boy".

Exactly, there is nothing.

You (in the sense of all religious people) seem to just be afraid to do anything without someone holding your hand, Even if your holding the hand of your fictional friend.

What? I don't recall us ever being afraid. I'm not afraid. You mean afraid of going to Hell? And what if I told you I wasn't afraid of that? That I deserved it? Would that make me afraid? It seems to me like you are afraid of admitting that there is someone that makes choices that you have no influence on.

What? I don't recall us ever being afraid. I'm not afraid. You mean afraid of going to Hell? And what if I told you I wasn't afraid of that? That I deserved it? Would that make me afraid? It seems to me like you are afraid of admitting that there is someone that makes choices that you have no influence on.

Well, some of your friends around here (and especially in this particular thread) spend a lot of time threatening people with fire and brimstone and hell and whatnot. I would say that's a very clear indication that a lot of Christians are indeed afraid of hell, and assume that others will be, too.

Personally, I think that there will be nothing once I'm dead. My body will disolve, and that's that. And if I look at the Christian options, I'd rather take hell than heaven any day, thank you.

... And if I look at the Christian options, I'd rather take hell than heaven any day, thank you.Afraid of heavenly boredom? :p

Afraid of heavenly boredom? :p

Why would I want to spend eternity grovel at the feet of a childish, cruel deity with an enormously inflated ego?

Some of them *seem* to be. They just seem to not like the rules.

I'm more afraid what *people* would do with said rules. Like blowing up clinics and shooting doctors. Or burning people on the stake.

Why would I want to spend eternity grovel at the feet of a childish, cruel deity with an enormously inflated ego?To cut off his feet every now end then?

Hm. Oddly enough, you've just described yourself.

Never at any time have I ever said that my personal philosophy is superior, or should be adopted by everyone.
UNLIKE your own bible, wich claims that no eternal reward can be achieved by humans except directly through Jesus Christ.
Ask a buddist how they feel about that.




Because we all know atheists are incapable of persecution, right? They don't attack Christians with offensive rhetoric about how they're delusional and believe in a fairy god, right?

You missed the point by a mile and a half.
My comment was a complaint about Christians insisting thier faith is under constant attack from a majority of people.
In fact, exactly what you did in the quote above.

Why must you attempt to martyr yourself?






People? These people? Who are you referring to? Christians? So far, we've got one nutter suggesting this. That's the original poster. You automatically grouping all Christians into this guy's category basically says EVERYTHING about YOUR ability to tolerate different ideas. We get it. You're pissed off about religion. You think it's a farce. You think it's a bunch of bullshit. Is it necessary to be so militant? To the point where you just can't be respectful of other people's beliefs? To the point where you lump everybody in one category and insult them by telling them their religion is crap? That is an ugly, UGLY personality trait to have, and it speaks volumes about your intelligence. You sir are just as ignorant as the original poster.

and you have done nothing whatsoever to dispute any of my " ugly and unintelligent" accusations.

FACT: The four accepted Canonical texts of the Bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, ALL have dubious origins.
The earliest one thought to have been written was anywhere from 100-160 a.d, many, many years after any possible eye witness to the accounts within.
This means the entire gospel is based on hearsay, and conjectutre.

FACT: Much earlier and non-Canonical texts like the Gospel of Thomas in wich, Jesus is not reffered to as divine, nor does it contain any mention miracles, nor crucifiction or ressurection. Experts believe it was written @ 40 A.D. This means the concept of Jesus' divinity was later added to the story a century or two AFTER the whole thing happened.

Youve basically announced your inability to debate against my arguements in a civilized manner, and instead, resort to name-calling and insults.
Fairly typical responses from children who dont like what they hear, yet cannot refute it.

If you must know the truth, I do indeed despise your religion, but I dont generally have issues with those who follow it. Only the ones who insist that those not like them are inferior, or "ugly-minded and ignorant".
I believe that when you take an honest look at the formation of Christianity, how it became an elaborate forgery, is self-evident.
If you disagree, thats fine, but if you must address me on these boards, do so in an adult manner, and refute my claims with your own ideas and proof, and not immature insults and weak tactics.

Your move.

I'm not afraid. You mean afraid of going to Hell? And what if I told you I wasn't afraid of that? That I deserved it? Would that make me afraid?
No, that would just make you either profoundly ignorant or mentally ill.

Hell is ETERNITY OF TORTURE. Think about that. Think about the concept of making the punishment fit the crime. What, exactly, can you possibly have done in your mortal, finite lifespan that could possibly earn you an eternity of torment?

If you really hate yourself so much that you believe you deserve to be tortured for all eternity, then I seriously urge you to seek help now. I honestly fear for the well-being of any person who loathes themselves that much.

No, that would just make you either profoundly ignorant or mentally ill.

Hell is ETERNITY OF TORTURE.

Only according to the New Testament.
No mention of fire or brimstone in the OT, Hell is merely " an absence from God".

The "Lake of Fire" business was only added later by the fledgling Christian church to gain quick converts.
"Old time religion" if you will, a sort of "Join us, or you will SUFFER ETERNALLY" sort of thing.

Only according to the New Testament.
No mention of fire or brimstone in the OT, Hell is merely " an absence from God".

No argument here, but my understanding is that Christians are supposed to pay attention to the New Testament.

Unless (gasp) you are suggesting that Christians pick and choose which parts of their Holy Text they will follow?!

Unless (gasp) you are suggesting that Christians pick and choose which parts of their Holy Text they will follow?!Heavens No! They would never do that....


They let their religious leaders do that for them.

how can that be apostasy when a state has no state religion?

Beats me. Ask His HolineSS.

You came here flaming atheists and spouting religious nonsense. People here reacted accordingly and put you in your place, outing you as ignorant, arrogant, self-righteous, hateful, condescending, narrow-minded and, in short, a troll.

Nobody here will deny that Christianity was an influence on the Western world, but claiming that it enabled the Western world to become what it is today is like saying that Nazi Germany allowed Europe to become what it is today.

CW I really like you. Take a :fluffle:

CW I really like you. Take a :fluffle:

*takes the :fluffle:

:D

Why would I want to spend eternity grovel at the feet of a childish, cruel deity with an enormously inflated ego?

Nothing wrong with an inflated ego.

But to quote the song:
"I'd rather laugh with sinners than cry with the saints."

No argument here, but my understanding is that Christians are supposed to pay attention to the New Testament.

Unless (gasp) you are suggesting that Christians pick and choose which parts of their Holy Text they will follow?!

Supposedly, OT is as important as, if not even more than the NT.
The OT holds some very basic pieces of Ancient literature. Muslims, Jews and Christians are all subproducts of this text.

The OT holds some very basic pieces of Ancient literature. Such as?

There Is No Biblical God


Hehh care to prove that one?

Hehh care to prove that one?Not again.

Well that's the thing. You do good for the sake of the world, because this is, as far as you know and believe, all we have to work with.

This is one of the reasons I feel the concept of eternal salvation and paradise are incompatible with the environmentalist agenda. Allow me to use the following analogy:

[snip] After all, it's just a toy.


In the first case, we have the naturalistic, atheist perception of the world. The world is something to be preserved for as long as physically possible. The environment should not be set aside for the sake of progress.

In the other, we have the theistic view of a world where attaining and exterior paradise is on the table. The need to maintain the world is non-existent, and it can even be argued that it is better to hasten the end of the world, so you can get your shiny new Heaven faster.


Well done, sir. That is possibly the very best explanation of religion & atheism - as it applies to environmentalism - I've ever seen. I had a similar view myself, but that's a lot more clearly expressed than I have ever managed. Nice one!

Well, some of your friends around here (and especially in this particular thread) spend a lot of time threatening people with fire and brimstone and hell and whatnot. I would say that's a very clear indication that a lot of Christians are indeed afraid of hell, and assume that others will be, too.

Personally, I think that there will be nothing once I'm dead. My body will disolve, and that's that. And if I look at the Christian options, I'd rather take hell than heaven any day, thank you.

As I have said earlier in the thread, I disagree with my brothers... shall we say...disrespect to other peoples beliefs. Why would you take Hell? According to the Bible, Heaven is the place of eternal happiness, while Hell is not. Also many people seems to think that they will automatically go to Hell for committing a sin. Thats why Jesus died. You repent and forsake this sin, and you are forgiven, and no more hell.

As I have said earlier in the thread, I disagree with my brothers... shall we say...disrespect to other peoples beliefs. Why would you take Hell? According to the Bible, Heaven is the place of eternal happiness, while Hell is not. Also many people seems to think that they will automatically go to Hell for committing a sin. Thats why Jesus died. You repent and forsake this sin, and you are forgiven, and no more hell.

I found a book in the street once and if you follow all the rules (Thou shalt not burn a match whilst singing; Thou must keepest thine hands in pockets throughout the nights of a full moon; etc.) you go to a heaven where chocolate doesn't make you fat. If you do not follow the rules, you are turned into poop with a brain for all eternity and are routinely serenaded by Tiny Tim. I follow that book and I have no idea why anybody would not follow it given the possible consequences.

I found a book in the street once and if you follow all the rules (Thou shalt not burn a match whilst singing; Thou must keepest thine hands in pockets throughout the nights of a full moon; etc.) you go to a heaven where chocolate doesn't make you fat. If you do not follow the rules, you are turned into poop with a brain for all eternity and are routinely serenaded by Tiny Tim. I follow that book and I have no idea why anybody would not follow it given the possible consequences.

I am not going to even respond to this obvious troll. Also if you don't want to follow it, dont! It's freedom of religion. I can't and Don't want to force my religion on you.

I am not going to even respond to this obvious troll. Also if you don't want to follow it, dont! It's freedom of religion. I can't and Don't want to force my religion on you.

I just don't like Pascal's Wager.

And I'm not a troll. I'm just a little bit stupid.

Well done, sir. That is possibly the very best explanation of religion & atheism - as it applies to environmentalism - I've ever seen. I had a similar view myself, but that's a lot more clearly expressed than I have ever managed. Nice one!

Thank you. It took me some time to develop that analogy in a way that could be expressed, but I hope I did a sufficient job at it.

What? I don't recall us ever being afraid. I'm not afraid. You mean afraid of going to Hell? And what if I told you I wasn't afraid of that? That I deserved it? Would that make me afraid? It seems to me like you are afraid of admitting that there is someone that makes choices that you have no influence on.
Orly. then why do you worship it?

Gods are created to explain unknowns in human knowledge, like when someone who's healthy dies in their sleep, or a thunderstorm.

Humans fear the unknown, you can see prove of this almost everywhere you turn; children fear the dark, for example, because they can't see. You maybe fearful of the first time you get on a plane and I takes off.

perhaps one of the greatest unknowns to early humans was, what happens after death. And thus, a heaven, and a hell are created, to explain it.

It's all based on fear, theirs no point in denying it.

Orly. then why do you worship it?

Gods are created to explain unknowns in human knowledge, like when someone who's healthy dies in their sleep, or a thunderstorm.

Humans fear the unknown, you can see prove of this almost everywhere you turn; children fear the dark, for example, because they can't see. You maybe fearful of the first time you get on a plane and I takes off.

perhaps one of the greatest unknowns to early humans was, what happens after death. And thus, a heaven, and a hell are created, to explain it.

It's all based on fear, theirs no point in denying it.

Perhaps. Oh, and I worship it because I quite simply, believe in it.

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/temp/fuckyoursins.jpg

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/temp/fuckyoursins.jpg

Was there a point to that? Or just a flame?

Was there a point to that? Or just a flame?
Purple Drink

He obviuosly needs to be burned at the stake.;)

I just want to get this off my chest concerning atheism and religion.

A: God does exist.
B: Religion is for those who can't find god for themselves.
C: Spirituality is fundamentally important in order for a person to lead a healthy life. And you can experience spirituality by attending any religious institution as long as you are following your own interpretation and not that of someone else's.

God is necessary to explain that which science cannot and to rely solely upon science is to approach the world from a very narrow perspective. It's important to have balance and to be objective in how you view life as it is.

Why would I want to spend eternity grovel at the feet of a childish, cruel deity with an enormously inflated ego?

That's why its better to go to Valhalla to feast, drink, and fight until Ragnarok!

I just want to get this off my chest concerning atheism and religion.

A: God does exist.Go on then, prove it.
B: Religion is for those who can't find god for themselves.So.. No religious people ever 'found god' for themselves, or on their own if that's what you meant?C: Spirituality is fundamentally important in order for a person to lead a healthy life.That's a pretty bold claim from someone I wager don't know every last godless person that had, do and will exist. But do explain what makes you so sure.And you can experience spirituality by attending any religious institution as long as you are following your own interpretation and not that of someone else's.Does that mean someone who didn't concieve of the Trinity, but was told about it, believes wholeheartedly in it and has had numerous spiritual experiences based in it, haven't actually had any - or what are you trying to say?God is necessary to explain that which science cannot and to rely solely upon science is to approach the world from a very narrow perspective.You couldn't be more wrong. A simple "I dunno" suffices. And in my experience, if you keep asking questions, that's exactly what the divinity-inclined end up saying anyway.It's important to have balance and to be objective in how you view life as it is.But you don't actually mean that, do you? I mean, if you're being objective, you sort of have to reject divinity as there's no hint of it anywhere. Or is your point that it's important to dispense with rationality every so often, because being objective all the time's bad for you?

I just want to get this off my chest concerning you; you're being an obnoxious prat to practically everyone, probably yourself included. And you suck ass at explaining why - or rather, you never even tried. Are you trying to get flamed or what :confused:

As I have said earlier in the thread, I disagree with my brothers... shall we say...disrespect to other peoples beliefs. Why would you take Hell? According to the Bible, Heaven is the place of eternal happiness, while Hell is not. Also many people seems to think that they will automatically go to Hell for committing a sin. Thats why Jesus died. You repent and forsake this sin, and you are forgiven, and no more hell.

I think I've explained that several times now, both in this thread and in others:

In the Christian theory, Heaven would be a place where people will go on gorveling before this childish, immature, arrogant, violent, cruel, spiteful, vengeful thing they call god.
I don't do that here, so what would make you think it would make me happy in afterlife?
That, in all fairness, sounds a lot like hell to me. So, where I to accept that the Christian god does exist, I've got a choice of two types of hell for eternity.

God damnit, DCD. Is this you making puppets again? :eek:

Perhaps. Oh, and I worship it because I quite simply, believe in it.
And why do you believe in it?