NationStates Jolt Archive

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

He's rebelling against the insistence of peoples imaginary friends into our daily lives.

And giving weapons to the godless-the god fearing have been starting enough wars over their imaginary friends for years, maybe it's time to try giving it to someone who doesn't have a sky wizard telling him who to kill.

He's rebelling against blinkered attitudes such as yours, who immediately think anyone who doesn't agree with you must 'hate' you and your beliefs.
I think he said it best when he said:
If they remain a bigot, I doubt there's anything I could say that would improve them.

Thread Integrity at 35%

This thread's not going to be able to take another hit like that Captain!

It hasnae got the power!!

I know tons of atheists, and none of them criticize me for my beliefs. Bottom line (directed @ OP): There are some atheist assholes, but at least as many theist ones. Actually, what the hell am I saying, humanity as a whole is a bunch of assholes (present company included). :p

Stupid Atheists.. Always being ignorant.

If the logic informing "christians are persecuted in the USA" were applied to another situation, it would come out "the jews were treated well by the germans and were treated with great respect in nazi society."

Ok. First, you made a trolly post without having at least a hundred posts to your name, yet you omitted to put in gun smileys.

No-one is going to take your trolly post seriously without the gun smileys. It's pretty much a rule around here.

Second, I don't believe, that you believe, a word that you have written.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

He's...um...right?

To paraphrase, he claims that metaphysical naturalism purports that everything can explained as either inherent or emergent qualities of nature and the natural order, without any need to appeal to a supernatural source.

Theism suggests that God(s), supernatural beings that have effects on the world, exist. It seeks to explain pheneomena on the earth through supernatural explanations.

If you can't see the mutual exclusion in this, you are an idiot.

If the logic informing "christians are persecuted in the USA" were applied to another situation, it would come out "the jews were treated well by the germans and were treated with great respect in nazi society."

That is non-sequetorious. I never asserted that Christianity in this country is oppressed, only that atheists are going out of their way to target Christianity in their pointless rhetoric.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe. The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

The Jews were destroyed by a state that had abandoned Christianity in favor of a paganistic Norse mythology system. The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

Theism suggests that God(s), supernatural beings that have effects on the world, exist. It seeks to explain pheneomena on the earth through supernatural explanations.

If you can't see the mutual exclusion in this, you are an idiot.

Unless, of course, God is natural.

After all, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, especially to those who don't even have the slightest comprehension of the processes in question. I could definitely see an extremely advanced civilization creating new universes for their own research or as a new home when their old one approaches the end of its life and progresses towards its final fate.

The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.
As an atheist, I like my babies medium-rare.

Unless, of course, God is natural.

After all, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, especially to those who don't even have the slightest comprehension of the processes in question. I could definitely see an extremely advanced civilization creating new universes for their own research or as a new home when their old one approaches the end of its life and progresses towards its final fate.

Yes, but then they wouldn't be God(s). Capital G. I understand what you're saying, but the theistic God is, as far as I recall, held to be a transcendent being. This means that he is by default outside the confines of space and time, and therefore outside the confines of nature.

That would make him supernatural.

Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

Because not all of us have one-track minds.

God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him.

Um... Mr. Carrier doesn't believe in God.

If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against?

Religion. Not God.

The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

Look at some statistics sometime.

The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

Godwin, AND a fuck-up. The Nazi's were Christians. As a matter of fact, part of the rhetoric that was given to them was that the Christian God wanted him to do the things they did. The phrase "Gott Mit Uns," comes to mind.

This means that he is by default outside the confines of space and time, and therefore outside the confines of nature.

That would make him supernatural.
Exactly.

A god confined to space-time and constrained to operating within the physical systems of our universe would be pretty pathetic; not worthy of being called a 'god'.

you're a lousy puppet.

He sounds pretty reasonable to me. He's not acting like a militant atheist, and he isn't suggesting that theists cannot be a part of the political/scientific/etc./etc. world. He seems to be just stating his opinion.

Now, I haven't read his books, so I can't say for certain if he's the militant type, but he certainly doesn't seem to be in this interview.

Yes, but then they wouldn't be God(s). Capital G. I understand what you're saying, but the theistic God is, as far as I recall, held to be a transcendent being. This means that he is by default outside the confines of space and time, and therefore outside the confines of nature.

That would make him supernatural.

Yeah, the theistic God is entirely incompatible with philosophical naturalism.

However, the idea of an effectively immortal, omniscient, and omnipotent being that created our universe isn't; the only qualifier is that they would be restricted to using the physical properties of whatever universe they existed in. If they don't exist in our universe, of course, we couldn't even interact with them if we wanted to until we approached a similar level of advancement.

So, no matter what way you look at it, from a scientific perspective the question of God is meaningless. Not that it doesn't exist, but it's meaningless.

I've never heard of an atheist killing another atheist because he didn't not believe in the correct God ;)

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

Tool

That is non-sequetorious. I never asserted that Christianity in this country is oppressed, only that atheists are going out of their way to target Christianity in their pointless rhetoric.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe. The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

The Jews were destroyed by a state that had abandoned Christianity in favor of a paganistic Norse mythology system. The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

Why don't we just go ahead and use one (two?) person to represent billions of non Judeo-Christians?

I've been an atheist for much of my life and I'm a much more responsible person now than I ever was. I now do good in order to help our world. Not because I'm afraid that I'll be punished if I don't. Anyone who would only do good deeds out of fear is not a good person. Also, Stalin was not evil. Horrible, but not evil

I've never heard of an atheist killing another atheist because he didn't not believe in the correct God ;)

No, they just killed for other reasons instead. I have a feeling people kill regardless of whether they believe in God or not.

Yeah, the theistic God is entirely incompatible with philosophical naturalism.

However, the idea of an effectively immortal, omniscient, and omnipotent being that created our universe isn't; the only qualifier is that they would be restricted to using the physical properties of whatever universe they existed in. If they don't exist in our universe, of course, we couldn't even interact with them if we wanted to until we approached a similar level of advancement.

So, no matter what way you look at it, from a scientific perspective the question of God is meaningless. Not that it doesn't exist, but it's meaningless.

I totally agree with you there. But the topic of discussion was theism, not an entity that has the properties, aside from being eternally transcendent, of a god.

In fact if we confine the qualities of God to the physical, the natural, and strip him of all of the elements that make him supernatural, and attempt to explain him in a sort of "hyperscientific" manner, many of the contradictions and paradoxes put forth about Him/Her vanish. You can't really have an omnipotence paradox if you go into the situation with the understanding that the omnipotence of that being is constrained by the natural laws of reality.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe. The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

I'm curious as to why you think paganism is atheism.

No, they just killed for other reasons instead. I have a feeling people kill regardless of whether they believe in God or not.

I would like to see some historical statistics on people murdered over religion (yes, you have to include all the wars) and people murdered for more mundane reasons . . .

That is non-sequetorious. I never asserted that Christianity in this country is oppressed, only that atheists are going out of their way to target Christianity in their pointless rhetoric.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe. The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

The Jews were destroyed by a state that had abandoned Christianity in favor of a paganistic Norse mythology system. The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

I would like to see some historical statistics on people murdered over religion (yes, you have to include all the wars) and people murdered for more mundane reasons . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_wars_by_date

Start counting.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe. The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

Couldn't you just say world.. considering one really wouldn't know that... one can't really even say world.. Bacteria could have their own single-celled god, you know.

I also believe that Christianity has been atempting to undermine all other religions (and all other points of view), too, so, it would be only natural that others try to undermine it. That's what one calls an absolute belief system. When one thinks that one's own beliefs are correct and everyone else is wrong. Thus one has your wars, persecutions and such.

Why don't we just go ahead and use one (two?) person to represent billions of non Judeo-Christians?

I've been an atheist for much of my life and I'm a much more responsible person now than I ever was. I now do good in order to help our world. Not because I'm afraid that I'll be punished if I don't. Anyone who would only do good deeds out of fear is not a good person. Also, Stalin was not evil. Horrible, but not evil

Well that's the thing. You do good for the sake of the world, because this is, as far as you know and believe, all we have to work with.

This is one of the reasons I feel the concept of eternal salvation and paradise are incompatible with the environmentalist agenda. Allow me to use the following analogy:

Assume that you are a young child, around the age of 5. Try to remember the mindset you may have had at this age. Now imagine your father giving you a toy, and telling you to take good care of it, because if you break it you won't get a new one. What do you do? You try your best to take good care of it. You polish it, keep it on a top shelf out of harm's way, maybe use it less harshly than you might have. You may know within your five year old mind that it will inevitably break in the future, but you want to get as much use out of it as possible.

Now, imagine you are this same child. Your father gives you a toy and tells you that when you are done playing with the toy, or have broken it, you'll get a brand new toy, and this one is even better, the perfect idyllic toy that will never ever break and one you'll be able to play with for as long as you want. What do you do? Your five year old mind shrugs internally, and you proceed to beat the living shit out of the toy. You use it, hard, leave it lying around, and generally treat it much more harshly than you would have, trying to get as much use out of it as quickly as possible, because when you're done you can discard it for the perfect toy. After all, it's just a toy.


In the first case, we have the naturalistic, atheist perception of the world. The world is something to be preserved for as long as physically possible. The environment should not be set aside for the sake of progress.

In the other, we have the theistic view of a world where attaining and exterior paradise is on the table. The need to maintain the world is non-existent, and it can even be argued that it is better to hasten the end of the world, so you can get your shiny new Heaven faster.

The Spanish Inquisition artfully illustrates what happens when people start using Christian values- they become evil. Look at me.

Fixed :p

I'm curious as to why you think paganism is atheism.


Like many religious folks these days, he only knows his own religion, and what ever Pat Robertson told him to say about other ones.

As for me, as a committed ignostic, I like my babies served breaded and deep-fried.

In fact, I'm fairly certain Congress already has lots of atheists--who simply pretend to be religious, and laugh all the way to the bank. But these are unscrupulous, machiavellian liars who will never do this country any good. If we're to have more atheists like that, I'd rather vote for Quakers. But if we're talking about infusing Congress with passionate, intellectually serious secularists, atheists who have enough character to say what they really believe and who are committed to thinking and acting rationally and empirically, then yes, that would be a good thing. But so would getting honest, rational, empiricist Christians into office who really believed what the Constitution says and in the ideals that founded it.
Yep. Sure sounds like he hates Xtians.

btw, whose troll puppet are you?
Anyone here care to guess?

and no, it's not me in case you think I'm trying to deflect attention.

Like many religious folks these days, he only knows his own religion, and what ever Pat Robertson told him to say about other ones.

As for me, as a committed ignostic, I like my babies served breaded and deep-fried.

Really? I kinda pegged you for the baby-kebab type :D

I like my babies served breaded and deep-fried.

Same here. I also like mine sprinkled with powdered sugar. :cool:

I'm agnostic.

i just don't buy into the story that there is an invisible man in the clouds, dictating what we should do, threatening non-believers with eternal torture and fire and brimstone while rewarding believers with a utopia for all eternity.

Yeah. I'm agnostic.

Really? I kinda pegged you for the baby-kebab type :D

I was, but then my weekly leftist-atheist-environmentalist conspiracy magazine ran an article saying that skewers killed trees, and I felt guilty.

I also agree that athiests are damned annoying, for denying the Gods. Yes, the Gods. The Gods of our forefathers (northern European forefathers, anyway), such as Odin, the Allfather, Thor, Baldr, Frey, Frigga, Freya, etc. However, I also find Christians to be offensive because they have forsaken their Gods, for the a religion native to the middle east. I have problems with people believing in Christianity, but I feel that Christianity is alien to Europe, and peopel of European descent. Europeans and people of European decent should return to their own gods. Each culture/region has its own gods-let each set of gods stay in their own zones. Allah, and the Christian god in the middle east, Zeus and the other Hellenic gods in Greece and Macedonia, and Odin and the Norse gods in northern Europe.

I was, but then my weekly leftist-atheist-environmentalist conspiracy magazine ran an article saying that skewers killed trees, and I felt guilty.

Aren't they made of...metal? At least the skewer part, not the handle. Actually, I've seen ones with silicone handles come to think of it.

Aren't they made of...metal? At least the skewer part, not the handle. Actually, I've seen ones with silicone handles come to think of it.

Generally a metal skewer works poorly with kebabs. Besides which, the conspiracy told me it was true, and I'm sticking to my story, damn it!

Generally a metal skewer works poorly with kebabs. Besides which, the conspiracy told me it was true, and I'm sticking to my story, damn it!

You and your trees...I ought to show those environmentalist conspirators what Vetalia looks like. They'd have an emotional and mental breakdown.

You and your trees...I ought to show those environmentalist conspirators what Vetalia looks like. They'd have an emotional and mental breakdown.

So does anyone want to respond to my analogy about environmentalism? Even if it's to rip it apart...? *waits patiently*

You and your trees...I ought to show those environmentalist conspirators what Vetalia looks like. They'd have an emotional and mental breakdown.

SHHH! Don't let them hear you! They don't like being critiscized you know. The Illuminati-Jewish-media-manipulator-atheist-Nazi-Eniroconspiracy has ears EVERYWHERE! I'd say the walls have ears, but I had them replaced with double-ply baby-shingles to save the trees, and it's kinda redundant that way.

Like many religious folks these days, he only knows his own religion, and what ever Pat Robertson told him to say about other ones.

As for me, as a committed ignostic, I like my babies served breaded and deep-fried.


Agnostic? Are you daffy?

What is this? You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it? God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

Agnostic? Are you daffy?

What is this? You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it? God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

Wrong. Pascal's Wager has an infinite number of sides. In fact, my new religion, the Dread Pirate Robertsians, say that if you worship Dread Pirate Roberts and listen to the tenets put forth by The Princess Bride, you'll find ultimate salvation. So if you don't worship Dread Pirate Roberts you're on the LOSING SIDE.

SHHH! Don't let them hear you! They don't like being critiscized you know.

The Illuminati-Jewish-media-manipulator-atheist-Nazi-Eniroconspiracy has ears EVERYWHERE! I'd say the walls have ears, but I had them replaced with double-ply baby-shingles to save the trees, and it's kinda redundant that way.

Don't worry, they can't get us here. Wait a minute, you do have an oxygen mask with you, right?

Otherwise, you're probably going to die pretty soon...and for your own safety stay out of the rain. The last time I was caught in it it corroded me so bad that I had to have my entire metallic skin replaced. That was expensive.

Agnostic? Are you daffy?

What is this? You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it? God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

Honorable Sir and/or Maddam, and I mean that in the kindestly-cruel possible way, I am as much an agnostic as you are a parrot. If your avian eyes were not centered on both sides of your head, rather than resting in a manner more suited to reading, you would know that what I wrote was ignostic.

So if you don't worship Dread Pirate Roberts you're on the LOSING SIDE.
Your Princess Bride reference just about cancels out the harm of feeding the troll.

But I wouldn't make a habit of it. :)

Don't worry, they can't get us here. Wait a minute, you do have an oxygen mask with you, right?

Otherwise, you're probably going to die pretty soon...and for your own safety stay out of the rain. The last time I was caught in it it corroded me so bad that I had to have my entire metallic skin replaced. That was expensive.

I'm an ignostic, I don't know if I believe in oxygen or skin or not, but I'm sure that it can't matter that much. What's the worst thing that could happen?

Your Princess Bride reference just about cancels out the harm of feeding the troll.

But I wouldn't make a habit of it. :)

Ok, I'll keep that in mind.

Can I at least have a cookie?

Can I at least have a cookie?

I'm baking a bunch of fetus-chip cookies right now. They should be done in a moment. Will that do?

Ok, I'll keep that in mind.

Can I at least have a cookie?
Inconceivable!!!

You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it?

Souls aren't immortal. They're a bit stretchy, but after a while, they just snap and turn into ectoplasmic stuff.


God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

He's too busy with Buddha, Vishnu, the Jade Emperor and Amaterasu at their weekly game of mahjong. Loser has to date the flying spagetthi monster.


Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

Vishnu might have something to say about that to Christians.

Inconceivable!!!

*slips some iocane powder into your drink*

I'm an ignostic, I don't know if I believe in oxygen or skin or not, but I'm sure that it can't matter that much. What's the worst thing that could happen?

Being horribly mutated by the carcinogen-rich atmosphere would be mercy compared to the other alternatives you might experience. And if you're outside after dark...Gods have mercy on you. That's when they feed...not even the military operates out there after the sun sets.

*slips some iocane powder into your drink*
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-h...

*dies*

*goes to Hell with all the cool people*

Being horribly mutated by the carcinogen-rich atmosphere would be mercy compared to the other alternatives you might experience. And if you're outside after dark...Gods have mercy on you. That's when they feed...not even the military operates out there after the sun sets.

Operating outside, especially when it's dark, does not sound like safe medical procedure to me. I'm glad that your nation's warriors have sense enough to operate in a sterile, well-lit room.

And, uh... Why is my spine trying to climb down my leg?

As long as the atheist doesn't try to convert me to being one, then I have no qualms with them.

Operating outside, especially when it's dark, does not sound like safe medical procedure to me. I'm glad that your nation's warriors have sense enough to operate in a sterile, well-lit room.

Actually, I think we accidentally killed most of the bacteria and amoebae on the planet about 116 years ago...somebody accidentally released some prototype nanophages and it was all downhill from there.

And, uh... Why is my spine trying to climb down my leg?

You still have one? Well, it's a good thing I've recorded this...it might be helpful in investigating how to genetically rehabilitate our biological citizens unfortunate enough to be exposed to the outside.

Oh, and you might want to kill it. They usually get quite hungry once they've detached.

Actually, I think we accidentally killed most of the bacteria and amoebae on the planet about 116 years ago...somebody accidentally released some prototype nanophages and it was all downhill from there.

Just more proof that when the Robots win, listening to techno will be the least of our problems.

You still have one? Well, it's a good thing I've recorded this...it might be helpful in investigating how to genetically rehabilitate our biological citizens unfortunate enough to be exposed to the outside.

Oh, and you might want to kill it. They usually get quite hungry once they've detached.

Again? I just got a new one last week.

Just more proof that when the Robots win, listening to techno will be the least of our problems.

I'll warn you ahead of time, sex is pretty tricky once you've converted to robot form. Put something in the wrong hole and instead of sex you've accidentally got yourself stuck in a backup cooling port. Talk about awkward when you and your partner have to go down together to the local RoboCenter to have some smartass teenage punk find you some nanolubricant...

But I digress.

Again? I just got a new one last week.

Hey, we make the best artificial spines in the galaxy. Ours are the only spines that can support other spines...we're up to 14 and counting.

I'll warn you ahead of time, sex is pretty tricky once you've converted to robot form. Put something in the wrong hole and instead of sex you've accidentally castrated yourself.

The pornographic possibilities are endless....

The pornographic possibilities are endless....

Yeah, let me tell you about the time we had to go down to RoboCenter to get the damn thing removed from the backup cooling port...

Actually, never mind. Let's just say that was damn expensive for the first month or two, and I know that bastard computer terminal at the service desk still snickers behind my back every time I go there to buy a new upgrade. To make matters worse, I went to high school with him and I'm going to hear about it at our 50th reunion...

Yeah, let me tell you about the time we had to go down to RoboCenter to get the damn thing removed from the backup cooling port...

Actually, never mind. Let's just say that was damn expensive for the first month or two, and I know that bastard computer terminal at the service desk still snickers behind my back every time I go there to buy a new upgrade. To make matters worse, I went to high school with him and I'm going to hear about it at our 50th reunion...



Can we please try to stay on topic?

Your sexual perversions might be interesting to the Keeper of the Book of Life but they are not to me.

A man named Richard Carrier has made an assertion about the universe. He is making the enormous claim that God does not exist and that God was not the architect of Mr. Carrier's universe. Whether this claim is true or false, the answer bears enormous gravity.

Why is it that every time a serious discussion about the nature of _the most important question anybody will ever ask_ comes up, a few nerds feel the need to come and ruin it with their little games? No wonder this country is going to shit.

Can we please try to stay on topic?

Your sexual perversions might be interesting to the Keeper of the Book of Life but they are not to me.

A man named Richard Carrier has made an assertion about the universe. He is making the enormous claim that God does not exist and that God was not the architect of Mr. Carrier's universe. Whether this claim is true or false, the answer bears enormous gravity.

Why is it that every time a serious discussion about the nature of _the most important question anybody will ever ask_ comes up, a few nerds feel the need to come and ruin it with their little games? No wonder this country is going to shit.


Probably because this sort of topic has been debated to death countless times, and has lost most if not all entertainment value. Just a bit of a guess, I've lurked for awhile but it may just be true.

Why is it that every time a serious discussion about the nature of _the most important question anybody will ever ask_ comes up, a few nerds feel the need to come and ruin it with their little games? No wonder this country is going to shit.
Maybe because people like you wouldn't know a serious topic if it bit them on the ass? Just guessing.

Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?
Please explain.

Oh, and to answer your question: someone who doesn't believe in God(s)? That's generally what atheists are. :rolleyes:

I think he thinks he's Richard Carrier. Who does the OP think this atheist thinks he is?

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless.

It is, in many ways, depending on what kind of theism we're dealing with.


Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

Probably not, since they don't.


He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

Some people are capable of caring about others without needing God standing over them. If you honestly are unable to find any non-God-based reason to give a shit, then I seriously urge you to seek professional help NOW.


I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him.

I once encountered a fellow who was absolutely positive that the spirit of Elvis spoke to him through his clock radio. I considered that man delusional. Are you saying that by considering him delusional, I must hate that man? Or that I must hate Elvis, since I do not believe Elvis is talking to that man?


If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:
Probably against superstition and delusion.

You ask very easy questions.

Hey, has anybody ever put mustard on their toast? Goes down nicely with a pint of real ale. Now THAT'S religion.

That is non-sequetorious. I never asserted that Christianity in this country is oppressed, only that atheists are going out of their way to target Christianity in their pointless rhetoric.

Yeah. I see your point. When arguing against theism people should take time to criticize other things like sugarless baking, alternate side of the street parking laws, the presence of flute music in rock and jazz, bingo's failure to appeal to the younger generation. Although that last one might get a bit controversial.

It's unfair that they spend so much time focusing on that which represents what they actually believe is wrong with this country. It would be much better for theists if atheists didn't criticize them and preferred to waste their time talking about everything else.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe. The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.


What the hell does an Emperor becoming a pagan have to do with atheism?
If you think paganism = atheism, then you're a complete moron. You're more like an atheist than pagans are (since you only believe in one more god than atheists do).

Oh, and Jesussaves was way better.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

i giggled.

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?
Evidently, he does not. Nor do I. I've never seen the clouds form the word "praise the name of god", unless a fundie pilot wrote them.
How do these two sentences of yours relate, anyway?


He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

The fact that he was in the armed forces proves that the life of his fellow citizens DOES matter to him.
History is full of examples of atheists that cared for the life of their fellow humans.
I don't belive in any god. This means, that gods are unimportant to me. This doesn't imply that other things are of no importance to me. Unless you mean that you care for the life of your fellow humans just because you're scared of eternity in hell, and that you fail to understand that other people might have moral standards NOT based on fear of eternal punishment.

Don't go around insulting people who don't share your own beliefs.
Or, if you prefer, judge not, lest thee be judged yourself.


I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:
If you're tired, ok. I don't waste my time using logics with a person that is quite obviously impervious to it.
Are you happy of your faith? If you aren't, change. If you are, well, no problem.

Anyway, I think that Mr.Carrier is rebelling against bigots: that is, humans who use this god thing as an excuse to behave like jerks in "His Name".

Gott mit uns and blah blah blah.

Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

In Pascal's day, perhaps. Today there are many more sides that have been realized.

1. The Christians are right, and siding with them means you gain everything.
2. The Atheists are right, and opposing them you lose nothing.
3. The Muslims are right, and siding with the Christians means you lose everything.
4. The pagans are right and you have chosen to spend eternity with the most austere and unpleasant deity in creation when you could have been sipping wine with the goddess of sex for all eternity.
5. The Buddhists are right and by siding with the Christians you are going to remain unenlightened in one joyless Christian existence after another with no heaven, just another lifetime of deprivation with no enlightenment.
6. The Hindus are right and by siding with the Christians you will always come back as a lower form of life because Christianity provides no clear framework for being the right kind of contributor to society. Any time you earn money or think that another person besides your spouse is goodlooking you have failed your Dharma and well remain trapped in an endless circle of Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock-> Christian->livestock->...

There's no clear winner anymore.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:


I feel sorry for Mr. Carrier, because he couldn't be farther from the truth.

This thread is made of lulz! :D

Thanks, Homoousia, your hideous idiocy has made my day 350% funnier than it would otherwise have been. :)

Now I'm off to go and kill a baby, eat a kitten (lightly grilled), and indulge in some looting and raping. Oh wait - sorry - I'm not a Crusader!

Instead, I'll go and :fluffle: some random people to make their day a happier day. :)

[QUOTE=Homoousia;12471449]

You mean, your immortal soul is at stake,

And your evidence for the existence of such a thing is........
And I mean [U]evidence[U] not some words from a book.

I feel sorry for Mr. Carrier, because he couldn't be farther from the truth.

And what is this truth of yours?

And what is this truth of yours?

BIG SCARY WHITE MAN IN SKY HIM COME AND PWN J00 FOR UNBELIEF!

I think that sums it up, to be honest.

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

How could you equate religious faith to morality when we have http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=521963 not far downstairs....

BIG SCARY WHITE MAN IN SKY HIM COME AND PWN J00 FOR UNBELIEF!

I think that sums it up, to be honest.

I think you're right :p

Homousia, I, as an Atheist, respect your belief. This is not because I think you're right, but simply because, as a human being, I respect you. Therefore, your belief has importance.

I suspect I am like a lot of Atheists in this. It's one of the major reasons we don't generally proseltyze.

However, you, in your opening statement, have chosen to tag all of us with a set of slurs and diatribes. So, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of your christian god.

The god presented in the Bible is petty, inconsistent and jealous. It is further murderous, genocidal and evil. Every manner of bloody and foul deed is laid at his door, and according to his book, he revels in it. The slightest misstep by his followers is punished for centuries, while generations of faithfulness are utterly ignored.

If this god stood before me and announced himself, I would not worship him. He is unworthy of me - or of anyone.

We have a beautiful, wonderful universe to explore and understand. But there is no place for your stupid superstition anymore.

Homousia, I, as an Atheist, respect your belief. This is not because I think you're right, but simply because, as a human being, I respect you. Therefore, your belief has importance.

I suspect I am like a lot of Atheists in this. It's one of the major reasons we don't generally proseltyze.

However, you, in your opening statement, have chosen to tag all of us with a set of slurs and diatribes. So, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of your christian god.

The god presented in the Bible is petty, inconsistent and jealous. It is further murderous, genocidal and evil. Every manner of bloody and foul deed is laid at his door, and according to his book, he revels in it. The slightest misstep by his followers is punished for centuries, while generations of faithfulness are utterly ignored.

If this god stood before me and announced himself, I would not worship him. He is unworthy of me - or of anyone.

We have a beautiful, wonderful universe to explore and understand. But there is no place for your stupid superstition anymore.

seconded.

Homousia, I, as an Atheist, respect your belief. This is not because I think you're right, but simply because, as a human being, I respect you. Therefore, your belief has importance.

I suspect I am like a lot of Atheists in this. It's one of the major reasons we don't generally proseltyze.

However, you, in your opening statement, have chosen to tag all of us with a set of slurs and diatribes. So, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of your christian god.

The god presented in the Bible is petty, inconsistent and jealous. It is further murderous, genocidal and evil. Every manner of bloody and foul deed is laid at his door, and according to his book, he revels in it. The slightest misstep by his followers is punished for centuries, while generations of faithfulness are utterly ignored.

If this god stood before me and announced himself, I would not worship him. He is unworthy of me - or of anyone.

We have a beautiful, wonderful universe to explore and understand. But there is no place for your stupid superstition anymore.

Truly well said. *bookmarks*

Homousia, I, as an Atheist, respect your belief. This is not because I think you're right, but simply because, as a human being, I respect you. Therefore, your belief has importance.

I suspect I am like a lot of Atheists in this. It's one of the major reasons we don't generally proseltyze.

However, you, in your opening statement, have chosen to tag all of us with a set of slurs and diatribes. So, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of your christian god.

The god presented in the Bible is petty, inconsistent and jealous. It is further murderous, genocidal and evil. Every manner of bloody and foul deed is laid at his door, and according to his book, he revels in it. The slightest misstep by his followers is punished for centuries, while generations of faithfulness are utterly ignored.

If this god stood before me and announced himself, I would not worship him. He is unworthy of me - or of anyone.

We have a beautiful, wonderful universe to explore and understand. But there is no place for your stupid superstition anymore.

Thirded, with applause!

Can we please try to stay on topic?

Your sexual perversions might be interesting to the Keeper of the Book of Life but they are not to me.

A man named Richard Carrier has made an assertion about the universe. He is making the enormous claim that God does not exist and that God was not the architect of Mr. Carrier's universe. Whether this claim is true or false, the answer bears enormous gravity.

Why is it that every time a serious discussion about the nature of _the most important question anybody will ever ask_ comes up, a few nerds feel the need to come and ruin it with their little games? No wonder this country is going to shit.


Welcome to NSG. We're as likely to take a parrot seriously as we are to have a more than 2 page discussion of any issue.

Can we please try to stay on topic?

Your sexual perversions might be interesting to the Keeper of the Book of Life but they are not to me.

A man named Richard Carrier has made an assertion about the universe. He is making the enormous claim that God does not exist and that God was not the architect of Mr. Carrier's universe. Whether this claim is true or false, the answer bears enormous gravity.

Why is it that every time a serious discussion about the nature of _the most important question anybody will ever ask_ comes up, a few nerds feel the need to come and ruin it with their little games? No wonder this country is going to shit.

What topic? The answer is completely and utterly irrelevant.

Agnostic? Are you daffy?

What is this? You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it? God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

You know, I used to buy into that Pascal's wager crap, then I turned 8 and figured out it was a load of horse shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager#Criticisms_of_Pascal.27s_wager

Well you know I have a bit of a bomb shell to tell here...

After reading the OP and the article I realised that actually I was denying God entrance into my life. I guess one could say that I might well have had an epiphany reading this thread. All the deniers of God are obviously wrong because they don't have Jesus Christ in their lives. How can they ever understand the goodness that Jesus and God brings to everyone. After all if you have Jesus in your heart you can do no evil in the eyes of God. Being able to wash away my sins at anytime is also an added bonus!

So I realise that I am indeed found and that having God in my life is the best thing to ever happen to me. I fully expect peace to reign the world and all humanity to accept the One True God. Come the Rapture I know I will be saved and go to Heaven to sit next to the Throne of God.

Yes. The above is utter bollocks. Pretty much like...well....religion.

Agnostic? Are you daffy?

What is this? You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it? God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

*lol
You are funny. How old are you, hon? 7?

Now, let's be serious for a moment : What difference does it make if the Christian god exists or not? Let's look at it this way:



The god of the bible exists. He's arrogant, childish, immoral, bloodthirsty, demanding, ungrateful, irresponsible, unreasonable, and an overall bastard. You can :

Worship him. You'll have a life dictated by ridiculous, pointless and overall unreachable ideals that you need to adhere to, while your god is not in any way obliged to reward you for it. If you do get a reward it will be to be allowed to grovel for all eternity.
Not worship him and have a good time. You will get punished, but it can't possibly be any worse than the reward this kind of god has to offer.


The god of the bible doesn't exist. You can :

Still worship, you'll have a life dictated by ridiculous, pointless and overall unreachable ideals that you need to adhere to, only in this scenario you will be spared the reward. Once you're dead, you're gone.
Not worship him and have a good time. Once you're dead, you're gone.



Either way, Christians lose out big time.

Homousia, I, as an Atheist, respect your belief. This is not because I think you're right, but simply because, as a human being, I respect you. Therefore, your belief has importance.

I suspect I am like a lot of Atheists in this. It's one of the major reasons we don't generally proseltyze.

However, you, in your opening statement, have chosen to tag all of us with a set of slurs and diatribes. So, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of your christian god.

The god presented in the Bible is petty, inconsistent and jealous. It is further murderous, genocidal and evil. Every manner of bloody and foul deed is laid at his door, and according to his book, he revels in it. The slightest misstep by his followers is punished for centuries, while generations of faithfulness are utterly ignored.

If this god stood before me and announced himself, I would not worship him. He is unworthy of me - or of anyone.

We have a beautiful, wonderful universe to explore and understand. But there is no place for your stupid superstition anymore.

this post wins the thread and pre-emptively wins all subsequent threads on this theme that will inevitably follow in the weeks, months and years to come while NSG is still active.

that is until god comes down and tells us it was all a big misunderstanding and he really tried to tell Abe and Mo and the rest how to live nicely and that he just wanted people to be friendly and never actually smote anyone but those crazy OT prophets kept shouting nahnahnahnahnah-cant-hear-you-cant-hear-you-kilkilkillkillkill!!! while sticking their fingers in their ears and prancing about and smiting people themselves and blaming it all on him/her/it.

or something.

Agnostic? Are you daffy?

What is this? You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it? God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

Learn what "agnostic" means before you try to spout off about it. Otherwise you will just be providing entertainment for us godless types as you fumble about blindly. And you wouldn't want to make us happy, would you?


Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.
Ok, I take it back, clearly you are out to be nothing but wonderful entertainment for us. Because really...Pascal's Wager? The most over-used, utterly debunked, completely worthless excuse for an "argument" in the history of theological debates?

Pascal's Wager is a joke all by itself, but when you actually find somebody who buys into it then you're in serious falling-down-laughing territory.

Learn what "agnostic" means before you try to spout off about it. Otherwise you will just be providing entertainment for us godless types as you fumble about blindly. And you wouldn't want to make us happy, would you?


Ok, I take it back, clearly you are out to be nothing but wonderful entertainment for us. Because really...Pascal's Wager? The most over-used, utterly debunked, completely worthless excuse for an "argument" in the history of theological debates?

Pascal's Wager is a joke all by itself, but when you actually find somebody who buys into it then you're in serious falling-down-laughing territory.

Aye, he's about as steady on his feet as a drunk prom date.

Boy really needs to learn a thing or two, then come back to us with a real argument.

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?
Because God doesn't exist, but people do.

If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:
The people who try to force theism into people's lives.

What is this? You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it?

MY immortal soul... I would like to make a big deal out of it. How much do you offer?

God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

I don't worship ANYONE out of threats and fear. I am no coward. I am happy to carry the responsibility of my ethical and moral codes, and of my actions too. And this could apply to a lots of christians I know, too.
When a person says "do A or woe unto you" I usually feel a strange compulsion to do any not-A.

Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

I think that Pascal's wager is the most lousy and laughable and ultimately unethical reason to believe in ANYTHING. Expecially a religion nominally based on love and not personal profit.


And, of course, if this "god" guy does exist and comes down saying "hey Risottia I got a couple of things to tell ya" he's going to hear me saying "no, wait, it is I who's going to file a complaint on YOU!"

MY immortal soul... I would like to make a big deal out of it. How much do you offer?



I don't worship ANYONE out of threats and fear. I am no coward. I am happy to carry the responsibility of my ethical and moral codes, and of my actions too. And this could apply to a lots of christians I know, too.
When a person says "do A or woe unto you" I usually feel a strange compulsion to do any not-A.



I think that Pascal's wager is the most lousy and laughable and ultimately unethical reason to believe in ANYTHING. Expecially a religion nominally based on love and not personal profit.


And, of course, if this "god" guy does exist and comes down saying "hey Risottia I got a couple of things to tell ya" he's going to hear me saying "no, wait, it is I who's going to file a complaint on YOU!"

and when you're done, you could send him to me, I've got a thing or three to tell him...

What do you expect from a slave religion?

atheists are going out of their way to target Christianity in their pointless rhetoric.

I don't see how the Atheist rhetoric is pointless. You can't fault people for coming up with an alternative to religion.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe.

Most likely because Christianity colonised other countries and forced them to accept their beliefs. The Portuguese and Spanish, whilst colonising the New World, forced the locals to accept God or they would be killed. A direct contradiction of the Christian values of which you hold so high.

The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

I don't see how experiments and theories used by intelligent people are inferior to Christianity's argument, which is mainly the Bible.

The Jews were destroyed by a state that had abandoned Christianity in favor of a paganistic Norse mythology system. The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

Nazism was not an Atheistic ideology. It was a Christian one. Hitler, the omnipotent leader of the movement - not dissimilar from the position that God is regarded in Christianity, one of several parallels between religion and totalitarianism- stated that Nazism was a Christian movement. The pagan views of which you speak were that of the minority, namely Himmler. To suggest that only Christians have moral values is highly ignorant. All societies do, whether they are religious or not. I am not Christian by understand that it is wrong to murder say. Furthermore, to suggest that the holocaust could only happen in a society bereft of Christian values, as you claim, is naive at best. After all, the group most responsible for persecuting the Jews throughout history has been the Christians.

And I am really sick of religions using Stalin as evidence that Atheism leads to wickedness. Stalin was a monster, plain and simple. Even before he became the leader of Communist Russia he was a monster. There are a lot of countries that don't have Christian values, and I don't see them turning into to despotic dictatorships.

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

Then I award him the first annual NSG Atheist in a Foxhole award!

Seriously, though, he's an atheist most likely because he about humanity enough that he won't let someone's definition of the word of God get in the way of that. Religion is responsible for dozens of wars and millions of people killed for having different beliefs.

Reminds me of an Iron Maiden song...

For the Greater Good of God

Are you a man of peace
Or a man of holy war
Too many sides to you
Don’t know which anymore
So many full of life
But also filled with pain
Don’t know just how many
Will live to breathe again

A life that’s made to breathe
Destruction or defense
A mind that’s vain corruption
Bad or good intent
A wolf in sheep’s clothing
Or saintly or sinner
Or some that would believe
A holy war winner

They fire off many shots
And many parting blows
Their actions beyond a reasoning
Only God would know
And as he lies in heaven
Or it could be in hell
I feel he’s somewhere here
Or looking from below
But I don’t know, I don’t know

Please tell me now what life is
Please tell me now what love is
Well tell me now what war is
Again tell me what life is

More pain and misery in the history of mankind
Sometimes it seems more like
The blind leading the blind
It brings upon us more famine, death and war
You know religion has a lot to answer for

Please tell me now what life is
Please tell me now what love is
Well tell me now what war is
Again tell me what life is

And as they search to find the bodies in the sand
[ Lyrics found on http://www.metrolyrics.com ]

They find its ashes that are
Scattered across the land
And as the spirits seem to whistle on the wind
A shot is fired somewhere another war begins

And all because of it you’d think
That we would learn
But still the body count the city fires burn
Somewhere there's someone dying
In a foreign land
Meanwhile the world is crying stupidity of man
Tell me why, tell me why

Please tell me now what life is
Please tell me now what love is
Well tell me now what war is
Again tell me what life is

Please tell me now what life is
Please tell me now what love is
Well tell me now what war is
Again tell me what life is

For the greater good of God (x8)

Please tell me now what life is
Please tell me now what love is
Well tell me now what war is
Again tell me what life is

Please tell me now what life is
Please tell me now what love is
Well tell me now what war is
Again tell me what life is

For the greater good of God (x8)

He gave his life for us
He fell upon the cross
To die for all of those
who never mourn his loss
It wasn’t meant for us
to feel the pain again
Tell me why, tell me why

And I am really sick of religions using Stalin as evidence that Atheism leads to wickedness. Stalin was a monster, plain and simple. Even before he became the leader of Communist Russia he was a monster. There are a lot of countries that don't have Christian values, and I don't see them turning into to despotic dictatorships.

Plus, of course, Stalin had a personality cult, which is basically like a religion where he is God. Someone who rejects religious attitudes would not be so keen to follow him (except for when threatened, which is how religions often work too).

He's rebelling against blinkered attitudes such as yours, who immediately think anyone who doesn't agree with you must 'hate' you and your beliefs.
I think he said it best when he said:
The OP was obvious trolling.

Nazism was not an Atheistic ideology. It was a Christian one. Hitler, the omnipotent leader of the movement - not dissimilar from the position that God is regarded in Christianity, one of several parallels between religion and totalitarianism- stated that Nazism was a Christian movement.
No, it wasn't. Much like Juche of modern-day North Korea, Nazism was an ideology whose adherents tried to make it a religion also.

And I am really sick of religions using Stalin as evidence that Atheism leads to wickedness.
I agree, I think the adage that "absolute power corrupts absolutely" is most true here. It has been observed in leaders who follow all religions and none.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

I like you. You're funny.

Fellas, stop feeding the parrot, please. We were having fun taunting it, and you want to get all serious again.

Homousia, I, as an Atheist, respect your belief. This is not because I think you're right, but simply because, as a human being, I respect you. Therefore, your belief has importance.

I suspect I am like a lot of Atheists in this. It's one of the major reasons we don't generally proseltyze.

However, you, in your opening statement, have chosen to tag all of us with a set of slurs and diatribes. So, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of your christian god.

The god presented in the Bible is petty, inconsistent and jealous. It is further murderous, genocidal and evil. Every manner of bloody and foul deed is laid at his door, and according to his book, he revels in it. The slightest misstep by his followers is punished for centuries, while generations of faithfulness are utterly ignored.

If this god stood before me and announced himself, I would not worship him. He is unworthy of me - or of anyone.

We have a beautiful, wonderful universe to explore and understand. But there is no place for your stupid superstition anymore.

I'm gonna have to fourth this, despite the fact that it's getting cliche now. But credit where credit is due...well said.

That is non-sequetorious. I never asserted that Christianity in this country is oppressed, only that atheists are going out of their way to target Christianity in their pointless rhetoric.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe. The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

The Jews were destroyed by a state that had abandoned Christianity in favor of a paganistic Norse mythology system. The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

That's by far one of the most idiotic posts I've ever read.

Congratulations.

wait a minute, i dont belive in religion. i dont and never have needed it. i am also a nice person and a charity worker. i dont kill or in any other way harm any one. and i act this way because im a good person, its that simple.

im SICK TO DEATH of religious people saying that people like me are immoral because i dont follow their views. i dont see why you should need a god watching you so you can be good. i help people because i respect them, not because im trying to save up 'god points' to get me into heaven.

how can i be evil when i dont even beleive in the concept.

rant concluded.

wait a minute, i dont belive in religion. i dont and never have needed it. i am also a nice person and a charity worker. i dont kill or in any other way harm any one. and i act this way because im a good person, its that simple.

im SICK TO DEATH of religious people saying that people like me are immoral because i dont follow their views. i dont see why you should need a god watching you so you can be good. i help people because i respect them, not because im trying to save up 'god points' to get me into heaven.

how can i be evil when i dont even beleive in the concept.

rant concluded.

*pat* We know how you feel.

Homousia, I, as an Atheist, respect your belief. This is not because I think you're right, but simply because, as a human being, I respect you. Therefore, your belief has importance.

I suspect I am like a lot of Atheists in this. It's one of the major reasons we don't generally proseltyze.

However, you, in your opening statement, have chosen to tag all of us with a set of slurs and diatribes. So, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of your christian god.

The god presented in the Bible is petty, inconsistent and jealous. It is further murderous, genocidal and evil. Every manner of bloody and foul deed is laid at his door, and according to his book, he revels in it. The slightest misstep by his followers is punished for centuries, while generations of faithfulness are utterly ignored.

If this god stood before me and announced himself, I would not worship him. He is unworthy of me - or of anyone.

We have a beautiful, wonderful universe to explore and understand. But there is no place for your stupid superstition anymore.



The God of the Bible must be petty, inconsistent and jealous because a mindset like yours has chosen to distance itself from His plan. Way to go.

My "stupid superstitions" have no place in this world? A Catholic priest came up with Big Bang theory. Steven Hawkins is an Episcopalian. Christians have invented every major social organization from the Red Cross to Doctors Without Borders. You're welcome.

And you're also welcome for the Crusades, whether or not you choose to accept them. Without them, you WOULD currently be prostrating yourself before the moon god Allah and screaching in Arabic as you behead your own neighbor for bowing at the wrong angle.

Christianity invented Western civilization. After the pagans devoured the Roman Empire, where did art, philosophy, and literacy survive? The monasteries. The Popes nearly ruined it with their militarism, but it was the real Christians in the monasteries who preserved the ancient legacy of the Greeks. For that, you are welcome.

Our "stupid superstition" is the father of your civilization. You owe every work of philosophy you have ever read to Christianity. You owe every ounce of modern medicine to Christianity. You owe the freedom to criticize religion to Christianity.

You're welcome.

You can thank me as we stand before the Throne together.

I like you. You're funny.

Please stop saying that to trolls. They seem to believe you.

The God of the Bible must be petty, inconsistent and jealous because a mindset like yours has chosen to distance itself from His plan. Way to go.

My "stupid superstitions" have no place in this world? A Catholic priest came up with Big Bang theory. Steven Hawkins is an Episcopalian. Christians have invented every major social organization from the Red Cross to Doctors Without Borders. You're welcome.

And you're also welcome for the Crusades, whether or not you choose to accept them. Without them, you WOULD currently be prostrating yourself before the moon god Allah and screaching in Arabic as you behead your own neighbor for bowing at the wrong angle.

Christianity invented Western civilization. After the pagans devoured the Roman Empire, where did art, philosophy, and literacy survive? The monasteries. The Popes nearly ruined it with their militarism, but it was the real Christians in the monasteries who preserved the ancient legacy of the Greeks. For that, you are welcome.

Our "stupid superstition" is the father of your civilization. You owe every work of philosophy you have ever read to Christianity. You owe every ounce of modern medicine to Christianity. You owe the freedom to criticize religion to Christianity.

You're welcome.

You can thank me as we stand before the Throne together.

The Book of Matthew has some advice that you might want to look in to, my fine, feathered parrot. I believe the number is 7:1. At least we'll get to celebrate hell together.

Thread Integrity at 35%

This thread's not going to be able to take another hit like that Captain!

It hasnae got the power!!

Lol

I'm not atheist, but I got a yuk or three out of that. :D

snipping a bunch of crap
You're welcome.

You can thank me as we stand before the Throne together.

Gee, thanks. You just convinced me to give up my evil pagan ways and follow Jehovah. Where do I sign up? :rolleyes:

Okay, just because someone doesn't follow the same religion as you doesn't mean they're doomed to hell. Get the hell over yourself and think about the things your own Savior taught. (Y'know, those inconvenient virtues like humility and charity, praying in private and... oh, yeah, judge not, lest ye be judged!)

Please stop saying that to trolls. They seem to believe you.

Okay, but it's not my fault they're stupid.

Couldn't you just say world.. considering one really wouldn't know that... one can't really even say world.. Bacteria could have their own single-celled god, you know.

I also believe that Christianity has been atempting to undermine all other religions (and all other points of view), too, so, it would be only natural that others try to undermine it. That's what one calls an absolute belief system. When one thinks that one's own beliefs are correct and everyone else is wrong. Thus one has your wars, persecutions and such.

Not only undermine, but several million people were forcibly converted.

You know, it's fairly obvious that the original poster is a luny toon, and is hardly representative of Christianity. With that said, it saddens me to see so much intolerance for religion. It doesn't bother me so much that people disagree with it (as I have my own quarrels with it), but that some of the Atheists here can't seem to be polite about their own views. Not all Christians are raving lunatics, you know. Skipping around these threads making jokes about Christianity, spewing spiteful insults that paint Christians as delusional, mentally ill, ignorant...it blows, man. Time and time again I have to read Generalites preaching about tolerance, yet in topics like these, it's evident they fail to practice it.

Please stop saying that to trolls. They seem to believe you.

LOL! Sorry...over active imagination.

*gibber*

You know, it's fairly obvious that the original poster is a luny toon, and is hardly representative of Christianity. With that said, it saddens me to see so much intolerance for religion. It doesn't bother me so much that people disagree with it (as I have my own quarrels with it), but that some of the Atheists here can't seem to be polite about their own views. Not all Christians are raving lunatics, you know. Skipping around these threads making jokes about Christianity, spewing spiteful insults that paint Christians as delusional, mentally ill, ignorant...it blows, man. Time and time again I have to read Generalites preaching about tolerance, yet in topics like these, it's evident they fail to practice it.

I've been shocked, but this thread has only had a couple of truly rude posts, to be honest. Unless, of course, you take me seriously. Which would be a big, big mistake.

The God of the Bible must be petty, inconsistent and jealous because a mindset like yours has chosen to distance itself from His plan. Way to go.

My "stupid superstitions" have no place in this world? A Catholic priest came up with Big Bang theory. Steven Hawkins is an Episcopalian. Christians have invented every major social organization from the Red Cross to Doctors Without Borders. You're welcome.

And you're also welcome for the Crusades, whether or not you choose to accept them. Without them, you WOULD currently be prostrating yourself before the moon god Allah and screaching in Arabic as you behead your own neighbor for bowing at the wrong angle.

Christianity invented Western civilization. After the pagans devoured the Roman Empire, where did art, philosophy, and literacy survive? The monasteries. The Popes nearly ruined it with their militarism, but it was the real Christians in the monasteries who preserved the ancient legacy of the Greeks. For that, you are welcome.

Our "stupid superstition" is the father of your civilization. You owe every work of philosophy you have ever read to Christianity. You owe every ounce of modern medicine to Christianity. You owe the freedom to criticize religion to Christianity.

You're welcome.

You can thank me as we stand before the Throne together.
The God of the Bible is inconsistent, petty, and jealous because (these are the only logical options)
A) He's a colossal prick.
B) He's a cobbled-together set of ideas that changed with society as old ideas of religion went out the window and new ones came in.

Stephen Hawking may belong to the Episcopalian church, but I'd bet a great deal of money that he's not exactly a Bible-believing fundie. Also, he'd probably be an Anglican, given that he's British. But the vast majority of eminent scientists don't believe in a personal deity. I'm sure Hawking is no exception.

We owe it to Christianity for preserving Classical culture? What have you been smoking? Most of the knowledge of the ancient world was safely kept in the Library of Alexandria, well after the fall of Rome, and would still be there today except for the fact that it got torched by an angry mob of...you guessed it, Christians. Incited by Cyril, Patriarch of the city. He was later made a saint. So yeah, the greatest single collection of Classical works in the world, that probably would've advanced post-Roman science by hundreds of years...wiped out by a Christian mob because it was an artifact of a pagan culture.

As for your other things we can supposedly thank Christians for...you have no way of knowing how the world would've turned out without Christianity. Could be a lot better than it is now. Could be worse. But saying that if it weren't for Christianity, we'd all be bowing before Allah and unable to speak freely is moronic. Especially since Islam probably wouldn't be around without Christianity before it.

What I find so tiring is that atheists are constantly being looked at by those who follow an organized religion as being bad people. I am not atheist, but agnostic, and as soon as people find that out, they suddenly want to "save" me. I don't need to be "saved" from anything. I am a good person who volunteers, teaches, donates, and much more. There were many Christians who were bad bad people. And I know, that just by saying that, people are going to jump down my throat for it and tell me "oh, those weren't 'real' Christians." Yes... they were... they wholly believed in everything they read and did. I read someone say in support of Christianity that without the crusades, people would be chopping off each other's heads in the name of a false god (Allah). You do realize what the crusades were right? Christianity has the most violent history of ANY other religion, and that is a fact. Not only that, but 'Allah' is the same god as Jehovah/God. The difference between Christians and Muslims is the belief in WHO THE SAVIOR WAS. In the Muslim religion, JESUS CHRIST is a PROPHET of God.
(to the poster of this thread among others)
I do not believe religion is wrong... but I believe many people who follow these religions are. If you are a "true" Christian you would leave the judgment up to GOD. It is almost as if you have taken a position up as God himself.... you are not delusional to believe in God, but you are delusional in thinking you are better than those who do not follow the same belief system as you.

Oh and BTW:
The Crusades were an OFFENSIVE war.
The Muslims were DEFENDING themselves/their land.
The Crusades are also partially responsible for the state that Islam's in now. (You know, still stuck in the 12th century.)
Without the Crusades we'd all probably be better off.
And they're your(GAH! English has no plural you!) fault.

You know, it's fairly obvious that the original poster is a luny toon, and is hardly representative of Christianity. With that said, it saddens me to see so much intolerance for religion. It doesn't bother me so much that people disagree with it (as I have my own quarrels with it), but that some of the Atheists here can't seem to be polite about their own views. Not all Christians are raving lunatics, you know. Skipping around these threads making jokes about Christianity, spewing spiteful insults that paint Christians as delusional, mentally ill, ignorant...it blows, man. Time and time again I have to read Generalites preaching about tolerance, yet in topics like these, it's evident they fail to practice it.

I'll second that.
I don't like your name one bit, but you're right.

The God of the Bible is inconsistent, petty, and jealous because (these are the only logical options)
A) He's a colossal prick.
B) He's a cobbled-together set of ideas that changed with society as old ideas of religion went out the window and new ones came in.

Stephen Hawking may belong to the Episcopalian church, but I'd bet a great deal of money that he's not exactly a Bible-believing fundie. Also, he'd probably be an Anglican, given that he's British. But the vast majority of eminent scientists don't believe in a personal deity. I'm sure Hawking is no exception.

We owe it to Christianity for preserving Classical culture? What have you been smoking? Most of the knowledge of the ancient world was safely kept in the Library of Alexandria, well after the fall of Rome, and would still be there today except for the fact that it got torched by an angry mob of...you guessed it, Christians. Incited by Cyril, Patriarch of the city. He was later made a saint. So yeah, the greatest single collection of Classical works in the world, that probably would've advanced post-Roman science by hundreds of years...wiped out by a Christian mob because it was an artifact of a pagan culture.

As for your other things we can supposedly thank Christians for...you have no way of knowing how the world would've turned out without Christianity. Could be a lot better than it is now. Could be worse. But saying that if it weren't for Christianity, we'd all be bowing before Allah and unable to speak freely is moronic. Especially since Islam probably wouldn't be around without Christianity before it.

As I recall many of what I've heard about Hawking's personal beliefs align him more with Pantheism than with Christianity.

I'll second that.
I don't like your name one bit, but you're right.

For the record, my name is strictly for the RP side of Nationstates...nothing to do with American elitism or the neo-cons.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

I'm going to throw out a crazy idea here.

Maybe, just maybe, you could learn to be secure enough in your beliefs that an atheist's words won't incite such righteous indignation.

And maybe you could work on your debate skills. Lord knows you need to use what potential He gave you.

The Book of Matthew has some advice that you might want to look in to, my fine, feathered parrot. I believe the number is 7:1. At least we'll get to celebrate hell together.
Where did he judge you?

Stephen Hawking may belong to the Episcopalian church, but I'd bet a great deal of money that he's not exactly a Bible-believing fundie.
Believing in the message of Bible makes someone a Christian. A belief in a literalist reading of it makes one a fundamentalist (yes, it means something other than a perjorative).

As for your other things we can supposedly thank Christians for...you have no way of knowing how the world would've turned out without Christianity.
Correct, but most atheists who characterise Christianity as evil ignore the countless Christian humanitarian organisations simply because they don't scream from the rooftops about how fucking Christian they are.

What I find so tiring is that atheists are constantly being looked at by those who follow an organized religion as being bad people.
Most of us believe no such thing.

He doesn't believe God exists, as there is no reason at all to believe he does.

The Jews were destroyed by a state that had abandoned Christianity in favor of a paganistic Norse mythology system. The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

Adolf Hitler was a Christian. Does this mean all Christians are evil?

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe.

If by "known universe" you mean the universe known to you, I suggest you take a look at the following page:
http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/universe_level2/universe.html

As you may know now, this planet is very, very insignificant, seeing as how large the universe is, and the insane amount of stars (trillions) and planets (trillions) there are. To say Christianity is the largest religion in the known universe is very short-sighted. What if some other intelligent life form on some other planet had a religion larger than Christianity? Although I suppose you believe the Earth is the center of the universe, the universe is 4,000 years old, the stars all orbit around the Earth, the Earth is flat, etc.

If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

As shocking as this may seem, the fact that someone doesn't believe in God doesn't necessarily mean that they have no moral values.

The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil.

So, what you're saying is that each and every non-Christian in the world is automatically evil?

What is this? You mean, your immortal soul is at stake, but lets not make a big deal out of it? God may or may not be readying to cast you face-first into a lake of eternal fire, but lets not get too worked up over it?

Since no one has any way of proving whether or not God exists or what he wants out of humanity...no, let's not make a big deal of it.

Get off the fence. Pascal's Wager has exactly two sides, and <b>no matter what, </b>, you are on the LOSING SIDE if you are not a Christian.

Some might call that a pretty arrogant statement.

Can we please try to stay on topic?

You seem to be even newer than me here, so let me go ahead and clue you in: on the NS General forum, staying on topic is hardly possible. :p

Adolf Hitler was a Christian. Does this mean all Christians are evil?

I thought he was an atheist. :confused:

Where did he judge you?


1. Did you see parrot-man's post about agnosticism? Sounds like judgement to me.

2. Isn't Matt 7:1 "Look first to the plank in your own eye (etc.)"?

I thought he was an atheist. :confused:

Nope. Christian.

1. That site reeks of onions.
2. You aren't funny.

That is non-sequetorious. I never asserted that Christianity in this country is oppressed, only that atheists are going out of their way to target Christianity in their pointless rhetoric.

Atheists have been trying to undermine Christianity since the Emperor Julian apostasized to paganism and somehow Christianity remains the largest religion in the known universe. The atheist's arguments are futile and they have lost their war.

The Jews were destroyed by a state that had abandoned Christianity in favor of a paganistic Norse mythology system. The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

Look at Stalin? Hell,look at George Bush. He claims to have Christian values as well. You can't blame an entire incident,such as the Holocaust on a lack of Christian values. I am not an atheist by the way, I'm agnostic,and I understand Atheists targeting Christians because the bible-thumping ones are shoving pamphlets in their faces and damning them to hell. (Don't get me wrong, I thing it's nice that Christians are trying to fill the world with sunshine and protestors) It's that state of mind that drove me away from being a religious fanatic..
If someone is an Atheist or something other than Christian it doesn't make them hate-filled human beings. They're simply fulfilling their spiritual side another way; better than out on homicidal rampages eh?

Nope. Christian.



Anyone who actually knows... pretty much anything about the state religion of the Nazis is that they were openly hostile towards both church and synagogue.

The state religion of Naziism was an extreme obsession with Norse mythology. The SS slogan "God is us," which some of the people on this forum who apparently know nothing about which they speak, is a slogan taken from a Berserker creed. Their insignia, the two parallel lightning bolts, is a direct replication of Norse religious art.

The Swastika comes from Hinduism. It is a symbol of longevity.

Goebbles' diaries confirm the obvious fact that Hitler's early promises of being a Christian were completely fabricated to placate the masses.

I await any demonstration that Hitler was a Christian.

I await any demonstration that Hitler was a Christian.
And we await demonstration that "all atheists are evil", "all the heaven's praise God", or that you aren't a remarkably poor troll.

Gee, thanks. You just convinced me to give up my evil pagan ways and follow Jehovah. Where do I sign up? :rolleyes:

Okay, just because someone doesn't follow the same religion as you doesn't mean they're doomed to hell. Get the hell over yourself and think about the things your own Savior taught. (Y'know, those inconvenient virtues like humility and charity, praying in private and... oh, yeah, judge not, lest ye be judged!)

Excuse me, have you ever READ the Bible?

Christ says that the law of the Old Testament will stand as 100% affirmed, not a letter or a stroke of a letter abrogated until after time was over.

Read Luke 14:26 and tell me where this wussy Jesus you have in your imagination lives. Read Luke 19:27 and tell me where this hippy you speak of is written about.

I judge you because I am judged ("judge not, lest ye be judged"). When I stand before the throne of God, do you think that He would be pleased if I failed to spread His word by whatever means I possibly could? If I do not at least try, God will think me a lazy Christian, which I would be.

I judge you because there is an extremely minute chance that it will save you. The society that has been engineered by liberal "every religion is just swell" theology breeds open disdain for people who actual believe what is written in the Bible. Most Christians you encounter have probably never held an open Bible outside of the church they went to when they were kids, that is why they have this absurd notion of a Christ who loves everybody.

Christ was very explicit about his in-group/ out-group theology. I have never heard even the most "dedicated" Universalist (which I consider to be a contradiction, as a universalist prides himself on being lazy about reading the Bible) explain away John 14:6.

Okay.


Wow.

Holy shit.

Just...

I've never seen someone pull off every stereotype of a NSG troll in 1 post.

I've never seen someone pull off every stereotype of a NSG troll in 1 post.

I want to award them an internet, but I just don't know if this is really win or really fail.

I feel a very human chill go down my spine because of this.

And we await demonstration that "all atheists are evil", "all the heaven's praise God", or that you aren't a remarkably poor troll.

Please show me where I said that "all atheists are evil."

Psalms 113:1-4.
Psalms 89:5.

Or if you want a non-Biblical explanation...

The universe has a set of finely-tuned physical constants, among them the speed of light, the mass of the various baryons, the gravitational constant, etc.

Science has shown NO REASON why these numbers should be what they are, they JUST ARE. For SOME REASON, the physical constants are precisely tuned to their current settings.

If the mass of any of the baryons were even slightly higher, atoms could not exist. If the gravitational constant were slightly higher, the universe would have contracted back into a singularity eons ago and if it were slightly lower, interstellar bodies could not form. So on, so on, so on.

The fundamental physical constants of the universe are EXACTLY what they would HAVE TO BE in order for our form of life to arise. No scientist has ever satisfactorily explained how his own findings PROVE how the heavens bow before God's plan of sowing the Earth with life. Science has worked itself into a theological corner because they have very conveniently put on themselves, by measuring the laws of physics, a very straightforward proof for the fact that the universe just "happens" to look exactly as it would have to look if a benificent designer with life in mind were to create it.

And of course you're going to argue this point, because I know that none of you have the forebearance to train your skepticism on your own sciences, which prove beyond all doubt conscious cause of the universe.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?
I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

So are you saying that I can't risk my life for the country that I love because I'm...an atheist(oh the horror, honey hide the kids!!)?

Frankly, I'm tired of some Christians incessantly complaining about minor incidents such as these, and subscribing to the persecution-complex. I understand why a Christian may be pissed over someone wanting to take "God" out of the pledge of the allegiance, but something like this...seriously. The guy is just stating his opinion, he's not trying to harm you or convert you (or would that be uncovert?) to atheism. Your reaction to him is very much over the top, and worst of all, you make other Christians look bad. I'm enlightened enough to know that most Christians are decent, moral people, but there are many not of the religous persuasion(especially on these forums) who think Christians are all fascist bigots.

You're feeding into the stereotype.

Anyone who actually knows... pretty much anything about the state religion of the Nazis is that they were openly hostile towards both church and synagogue.

The state religion of Naziism was an extreme obsession with Norse mythology. The SS slogan "God is us," which some of the people on this forum who apparently know nothing about which they speak, is a slogan taken from a Berserker creed. Their insignia, the two parallel lightning bolts, is a direct replication of Norse religious art.

The Swastika comes from Hinduism. It is a symbol of longevity.

Goebbles' diaries confirm the obvious fact that Hitler's early promises of being a Christian were completely fabricated to placate the masses.

I await any demonstration that Hitler was a Christian.

Gonna go ahead and call bullshit on this one.

The swastika was a Hindu symbol of stability and groundedness, due to the four protrusions representing the four cardinal directions. It's also used as a sun symbol in the worship of Surya.

It has fuckall to do with longevity.

So you clearly don't know all that much, boy.

Dear, Dear, Mr. Parrot, I do wish you'd spend some more time dealing with your own pride, rather than trying to enforce your code of morals on a world that your Christ knew would reject him. Not only are you wasting your time, you're only reaffirming the general consensus that the Christian God is an asshole entirely undeserving of anything outside of a swift kick to his posterior.

Please show me where I said that "all atheists are evil."

Psalms 113:1-4.
Psalms 89:5.

Or if you want a non-Biblical explanation...

The universe has a set of finely-tuned physical constants, among them the speed of light, the mass of the various baryons, the gravitational constant, etc.

Science has shown NO REASON why these numbers should be what they are, they JUST ARE. For SOME REASON, the physical constants are precisely tuned to their current settings.

If the mass of any of the baryons were even slightly higher, atoms could not exist. If the gravitational constant were slightly higher, the universe would have contracted back into a singularity eons ago and if it were slightly lower, interstellar bodies could not form. So on, so on, so on.

The fundamental physical constants of the universe are EXACTLY what they would HAVE TO BE in order for our form of life to arise. No scientist has ever satisfactorily explained how his own findings PROVE how the heavens bow before God's plan of sowing the Earth with life. Science has worked itself into a theological corner because they have very conveniently put on themselves, by measuring the laws of physics, a very straightforward proof for the fact that the universe just "happens" to look exactly as it would have to look if a benificent designer with life in mind were to create it.

And of course you're going to argue this point, because I know that none of you have the forebearance to train your skepticism on your own sciences, which prove beyond all doubt conscious cause of the universe.

You assume that nature and the universe require a reason. Aside from your own clearly anthrocentric viewpoint of the world and everything in it, science doesn't care one bit about providing you with a reason for anything, because guess what: The universe is not intelligently designed, and therefore no reason is required for the "fine tuning" of physical constants. As a matter of fact, if the theories about a multiverse are true, we are but one of an infinite number of universes, and just so happen by chance to have these properties.

Gonna go ahead and call bullshit on this one.

The swastika was a Hindu symbol of stability and groundedness, due to the four protrusions representing the four cardinal directions. It's also used as a sun symbol in the worship of Surya.

It has fuckall to do with longevity.

So you clearly don't know all that much, boy.

Boy, does that sound like a couple of sentences from the wikipedia entry for swastika copy and pasted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Hinduism
Next time you plagiarize an open-source encyclopedia designed to get hits from lazy high schoolers, at least cite it. :rolleyes:

Try actually asking a Hindu what the swastia means.
http://www.indiainclassrooms.org/downloads/Birthday%20traditions.htm
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/swas.htm


Who's next?

The fundamental physical constants of the universe are EXACTLY what they would HAVE TO BE in order for our form of life to arise. No scientist has ever satisfactorily explained how his own findings PROVE how the heavens bow before God's plan of sowing the Earth with life. Science has worked itself into a theological corner because they have very conveniently put on themselves, by measuring the laws of physics, a very straightforward proof for the fact that the universe just "happens" to look exactly as it would have to look if a benificent designer with life in mind were to create it.

Cosmic natural selection? Superintelligent beings engineering a universe for their own research or survival purposes, like posthumans are going to in the distant future (effectively Gods, but not transcendent ones)? Or it could just be random chance. Sometimes we throw a pair of sixes or are dealt a royal flush...it's not likely, but it does happen.

I mean, it could be God or it could be something else. We just don't know.

You assume that nature and the universe require a reason. Aside from your own clearly anthrocentric viewpoint of the world and everything in it, science doesn't care one bit about providing you with a reason for anything, because guess what: The universe is not intelligently designed, and therefore no reason is required for the "fine tuning" of physical constants. As a matter of fact, if the theories about a multiverse are true, we are but one of an infinite number of universes, and just so happen by chance to have these properties.

So you believe that the universe has always existed?

Think about it this way. If there were an infinite number of prior events, that means that a time gap of infinite size would have to be bridged before this current moment could be reached... except, oops, an infinity is by definition untraversable. Whoops!

And the multiverse theory is just science fiction that happens to fit the facts. There is neither math nor observational data behind it; it would be as scientific as asserting that unicorns exist, but we just can't observe or interact with them.

Please figure out what 'science' means before you go pretending that every atheist physicist's armchair fantasies qualify as science just because it comes from a philisophical disposition with which you are inclined to agree by your fear of being held responsible for your own actions by an all-powerful arbiter.

Excuse me, have you ever READ the Bible?
excuse me, have you ever read the bible in its original language? i'm going to go with no, you don't seem the adventurous type.

astoundingly, having a greek orthodox for a father, and a jew for a mother, i have read both testaments in something like their original scripture. before spouting this bs, make sure you know that YOU have read the bible(s). and make sure to read the gospels that were suppressed by the church, before you tell us what Jesus said. you may think you know what Jesus said, but in reality, you only know what you've been told to think. baaaaaaa.

So you believe that the universe has always existed?

Think about it this way. If there were an infinite number of prior events, that means that a time gap of infinite size would have to be bridged before this current moment could be reached... except, oops, an infinity is by definition untraversable. Whoops!

And the multiverse theory is just science fiction that happens to fit the facts. There is neither math nor observational data behind it; it would be as scientific as asserting that unicorns exist, but we just can't observe or interact with them.

Please figure out what 'science' means before you go pretending that every atheist physicist's armchair fantasies qualify as science just because it comes from a philisophical disposition with which you are inclined to agree by your fear of being held responsible for your own actions by an all-powerful arbiter.

I take it they never taught you anything about the Big Bang. A shame, really.

Gonna go ahead and call bullshit on this one.

The swastika was a Hindu symbol of stability and groundedness, due to the four protrusions representing the four cardinal directions. It's also used as a sun symbol in the worship of Surya.

It has fuckall to do with longevity.

So you clearly don't know all that much, boy.

I have been trying to answer this question three times but the moderators have yet to clear it.

Your answer sounds suspiciously like a couple of sentences copy and pasted from the wikipedia entry for "swastika." The next time you feel like plagiarizing from an open-source encylopedia for lazy high schoolers, please at least cite it.

Try actually asking a Hindu, or one of your comparative religion professors, what the swastika means. It is longevity both in the biological sense, and the immutability of God, and the immutability of the universe. It has several meanings in all manner of pagan religions. Please, please, please do not claim knowledge of these things if your only source is theft of a wikipedia editor's intellectual property.

So you believe that the universe has always existed?

Think about it this way. If there were an infinite number of prior events, that means that a time gap of infinite size would have to be bridged before this current moment could be reached... except, oops, an infinity is by definition untraversable. Whoops!

And the multiverse theory is just science fiction that happens to fit the facts. There is neither math nor observational data behind it; it would be as scientific as asserting that unicorns exist, but we just can't observe or interact with them.

Please figure out what 'science' means before you go pretending that every atheist physicist's armchair fantasies qualify as science just because it comes from a philisophical disposition with which you are inclined to agree by your fear of being held responsible for your own actions by an all-powerful arbiter.

You may have missed this in your calculus class, but you can approach infinity just fine.

Or do you want to talk about Xeno's Paradox for an example of acheiving infinity.

excuse me, have you ever read the bible in its original language? i'm going to go with no, you don't seem the adventurous type.

astoundingly, having a greek orthodox for a father, and a jew for a mother, i have read both testaments in something like their original scripture. before spouting this bs, make sure you know that YOU have read the bible(s). and make sure to read the gospels that were suppressed by the church, before you tell us what Jesus said. you may think you know what Jesus said, but in reality, you only know what you've been told to think. baaaaaaa.

"Something like their original scripture."

Please cite book and verse showing me where I am wrong, or show me a serious difference in translations showing that the verses I cited could mean completely different things depending on the translator.

If not, then please, kindly remove yourself from discourse until you are prepared to made evidentiary claims that relate your thesis to reality.

I have been trying to answer this question three times but the moderators have yet to clear it.

Your answer sounds suspiciously like a couple of sentences copy and pasted from the wikipedia entry for "swastika." The next time you feel like plagiarizing from an open-source encylopedia for lazy high schoolers, please at least cite it.

Try actually asking a Hindu, or one of your comparative religion professors, what the swastika means. It is longevity both in the biological sense, and the immutability of God, and the immutability of the universe. It has several meanings in all manner of pagan religions. Please, please, please do not claim knowledge of these things if your only source is theft of a wikipedia editor's intellectual property.

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/7/73/Roflcopter.gif

I AM a Hindu, you Fuckwit.

Excuse me, have you ever READ the Bible?

Christ says that the law of the Old Testament will stand as 100% affirmed, not a letter or a stroke of a letter abrogated until after time was over.

Read Luke 14:26 and tell me where this wussy Jesus you have in your imagination lives. Read Luke 19:27 and tell me where this hippy you speak of is written about.

I judge you because I am judged ("judge not, lest ye be judged"). When I stand before the throne of God, do you think that He would be pleased if I failed to spread His word by whatever means I possibly could? If I do not at least try, God will think me a lazy Christian, which I would be.

I judge you because there is an extremely minute chance that it will save you. The society that has been engineered by liberal "every religion is just swell" theology breeds open disdain for people who actual believe what is written in the Bible. Most Christians you encounter have probably never held an open Bible outside of the church they went to when they were kids, that is why they have this absurd notion of a Christ who loves everybody.

Christ was very explicit about his in-group/ out-group theology. I have never heard even the most "dedicated" Universalist (which I consider to be a contradiction, as a universalist prides himself on being lazy about reading the Bible) explain away John 14:6.

How's this? I understand that you have an obligation under your faith to evangelize. But can I just say that you would get a lot more converts by living the life that Jesus led, eg giving up worldly possessions, giving of himself to charity, feeding the poor, etc, than barging into a forum full of people of all faiths and telling everyone that you don't agree with that they're going to hell.

Re: The bible quotes. Fine, but the greater lessons of Jesus' life, to me at least, are about being a humble person, loving your fellow men, etc (referring to the sermon on the Mount, don't have the exact reference at the moment.) But, not being of the Christin persuasion, I can legitimately cherry pick my beliefs, where those who believe the Bible to be divinely inspired can't.

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/7/73/Roflcopter.gif

I AM a Hindu, you Fuckwit.

Then I am ashamed for you. If you have to quote wikipedia and still get the core symbols of your own faith wrong, then I blush for you.

Please show me where I said that "all atheists are evil."
Okey doke:

The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil. Look at Stalin.

As atheists aren't abiding to Christian values, then, according to you, they must be evil.

snipitty-snip
If the' fundamental physical constants', as you call them, weren't the way we are, then no, of course the universe wouldn't be the way it is. Don't you see the ridiculousness of the statement? "If the universe wasn't the way it is, it wouldn't be the way it is!"

If cheese wasn't cheese, it wouldn't be cheese. If the universe wasn't the universe, it wouldn't be the universe. Big woop.

Leaping from 'we exist' to 'God created us' is pretty extraordinary, especially when you're automatically assuming the Christian God must be the creator. Even if your flawed argument was correct, how do you know it wasn't Vishnu who created the universe? Or Odin? Or Ra?

Take your own advice: have the forbearance to train your skepticism on your own beliefs.

How's this? I understand that you have an obligation under your faith to evangelize. But can I just say that you would get a lot more converts by living the life that Jesus led, eg giving up worldly possessions, giving of himself to charity, feeding the poor, etc, than barging into a forum full of people of all faiths and telling everyone that you don't agree with that they're going to hell.

Re: The bible quotes. Fine, but the greater lessons of Jesus' life, to me at least, are about being a humble person, loving your fellow men, etc (referring to the sermon on the Mount, don't have the exact reference at the moment.) But, not being of the Christin persuasion, I can legitimately cherry pick my beliefs, where those who believe the Bible to be divinely inspired can't.


If you believe that those are the lessons of the life of Christ, then you should be able to offer evidence from the text of his life (the New Testament) refuting his in-group/out-group theology. Otherwise, Christ is either a liar or a madman in your eyes and you should draw nothing from His life.

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/7/73/Roflcopter.gif

I AM a Hindu, you Fuckwit.
C'mon man. Don't rise to his crap.

And the multiverse theory is just science fiction that happens to fit the facts. There is neither math nor observational data behind it; it would be as scientific as asserting that unicorns exist, but we just can't observe or interact with them.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
You realize you're saying this in a discussion about God, right?
And that God is even less scientific then the multiverse, because the multiverse is at least theoretically testable?

If you believe that those are the lessons of the life of Christ, then you should be able to offer evidence from the text of his life (the New Testament) refuting his in-group/out-group theology. Otherwise, Christ is either a liar or a madman in your eyes and you should draw nothing from His life.

I don't really care about in-group/out-group theology. Not my area of expertise. Being that I'm not Christian, I'm free to take any damn lesson I want from Christ's teachings. Hell, I'm free to take whatever lesson I want from any holy text. How cool is that?

I don't think Jesus was a liar, nor do I think he was a madman. Whoever he was, he had a profound experience that brought him to lead an exemplary life, and I respect that. I respect his willingness to endure agony and death for his beliefs. I respect the lessons of the sermon on the mount.

C'mon man. Don't rise to his crap.

Oh, I'm not anymore. I'm done here.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
You realize you're saying this in a discussion about God, right?
And that God is even less scientific then the multiverse, because the multiverse is at least theoretically testable?
Sheni, Troll. Troll, Sheni.

If you believe that those are the lessons of the life of Christ, then you should be able to offer evidence from the text of his life (the New Testament) refuting his in-group/out-group theology. Otherwise, Christ is either a liar or a madman in your eyes and you should draw nothing from His life.

Or, you know. A lie. There's that possibility too. I'm in with that one.

Or, you know. A lie. There's that possibility too. I'm in with that one.
I'm plumping for a mix of local cult hero-worship infused with millennia-old mythology.

I'm plumping for a mix of local cult hero-worship infused with millennia-old mythology.

I'd give you that. After all, the Bible wasn't even put together until over a hundred years after "Jesus" supposedly lived.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
You realize you're saying this in a discussion about God, right?
And that God is even less scientific then the multiverse, because the multiverse is at least theoretically testable?

You do realize that if you were at a trial, and 96% of the planet testified as witnesses on one side, the trial would be over.

96% of the planet testifies to feel God in their hearts and minds.

The defense rests.

Didn't your parents ever ask you the age-old question. "If your friends wanted to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"

And as for that little statistic of 96%.......You're including non-Christians into your scheme, including Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and all manner of people with all manner of mental disorders.

BTW, people are 85% more likely to believe what you say if you include a statistic.

You do realize that if you were at a trial, and 96% of the planet testified as witnesses on one side, the trial would be over.

96% of the planet testifies to feel God in their hearts and minds.

The defense rests.

One billion-and-a-half people does not constitute 96% of the planet.

You do realize that if you were at a trial, and 96% of the planet testified as witnesses on one side, the trial would be over.

96% of the planet testifies to feel God in their hearts and minds.

The defense rests.

That number is grossly inflated and uncited. Of that less than 90%, many beleive in God only out of convenience. Out of the remaining 30 or 40 percent, maybe 20 belong to one group.

So much for that bullshit.

Now go troll elsewhere, parrot. None of us is being converted by you. In fact, you're probably having the opposite effect.

And, I'd remind you, that people believing something is as empiricaly relevant as doctored pictures.

You do realize that if you were at a trial, and 96% of the planet testified as witnesses on one side, the trial would be over.

96% of the planet testifies to feel God in their hearts and minds.

The defense rests.

You fail at math

(sorry have to use this from another thread)
http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1174329819-fail.b.jpg

Thread Integrity at 35%

This thread's not going to be able to take another hit like that Captain!

It hasnae got the power!!

"Spock, do something!"
"Captain, I deal with logic and logical situations. This is something that no sane being can even begin to comprehend."

I can easily summarize 11 pages of posts.
"I am so enlightened, Christians are retarted!"
"I am so enlightened, Atheists are retarted!"
Personal insults, insults to beliefs, false logic, cliche attack lines, false statistic,
etc.


I don't agree with this man, but he's writing a book about how atheists can be good people.

Let the bitter fight continue!

Didn't your parents ever ask you the age-old question. "If your friends wanted to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"

And as for that little statistic of 96%.......You're including non-Christians into your scheme, including Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and all manner of people with all manner of mental disorders.

BTW, people are 85% more likely to believe what you say if you include a statistic.

But 42% of all statistics are made up.

But 42% of all statistics are made up.

I'd say the number is slightly higher, being in the 99% range, and that low only because statistics are based in sound mathematics, but can be skewed by exclusion or inclusion.

You do realize that if you were at a trial, and 96% of the planet testified as witnesses on one side, the trial would be over.

96% of the planet testifies to feel God in their hearts and minds.

The defense rests.

Little problems.

1)They can testify that in their opinion god(s) exist. An opinion has no judiciary value - an opinion, even the opinion of the majority, has no meaning in a trial.
By the same argumentation, we could assume that until Galileo and Kepler the Sun orbited around the Earth, then in the subsequent 100 years they shifted position.
Consensus is no truth.

2)It would be wonderful to see such testes bitch about how this/these god(s) is/are.
Let's say that there is an alleged breaking into an house. The police ask for witnesses. They find 6.
Number one says: I've seen nothing.
Number two says: I've seen him! It was a white old man with a flowing beard.
Number three says: I've seen him! It was an arab-looking man.
Number four says: I've seen them! It was a huge gang of about 12 people, some male, some female, some of them with swords, spears and shields.
Number five says: I've seen them! It was an army of more than 1000, with all sorts of strange appendages (4-6-8 arms, 2-10 faces each etc etc).
Number six says: I've seen him/them! It was an white old man with a flowing beard which also looked like a young white man which also looked like a dove!

What do you think the police is going to think?


Not only consensus is no truth: there is NO consensus about religion. So quit these pitiful arguments, you're doing nothing but vilify religion.
All the atheists I know accept that other people are happy with their irrational beliefs, and, as long as these irrational beliefs make them happy...

I adopted an American. Welcome to Europe, Edoniakistanbabweagua!

I wanna be adopted by a European!

*whines*

*snip*

Skipping around these threads making jokes about Christianity, spewing spiteful insults that paint Christians as delusional, mentally ill, ignorant

you're right, all theists are not ignorant, nor mentally ill. for the rest, it's a point of view...

The God of the Bible must be petty, inconsistent and jealous because a mindset like yours has chosen to distance itself from His plan. Way to go.

Really? I don't recall there being much discussion of people like me back in the old testament. You know, when your god did such things as what happened to dear old Job.

Let's see - family wiped out, wealth destroyed, covered in boils - not very nice, really. But what gets me is the poor guy's family. A bunch of nice, god fearing people - whom your god crushes like bugs under a falling house. To test Job. Nothing really to do with them - I guess they're just collateral damage.
And note that Job is a good, god-fearing man. He sacrifices to god regularly and obeys the Law. So, god singles him out for abject misery. Yay god.
Your god is also in favour of human sacrifice, btw. Everybody knows about the guy who was almost forced to murder his own son (wow, is that kid going to have "issues" growing up!), but what about the daughter of Jephthah? No nice angel to save her.

Petty, inconsistent, brutal, downright murderous, in fact.


And you're also welcome for the Crusades, whether or not you choose to accept them. Without them, you WOULD currently be prostrating yourself before the moon god Allah and screaching in Arabic as you behead your own neighbor for bowing at the wrong angle.

Ah. You don't actually know anything about history, do you? The Crusades failed. TOTALLY. They actually stirred up a more or less quiescent and divided Islam into something close to unification, and set them on the road of war again.

Oh, and let's not forget that the Crusades did a damn good job of destroying EASTERN CHRISTENDOM. Without the sack of Constantinople, the Byzantine Empire might have survived Mehmed II's siege, and Istanbul might today still be Constantinople.


Our "stupid superstition" is the father of your civilization. You owe every work of philosophy you have ever read to Christianity. You owe every ounce of modern medicine to Christianity. You owe the freedom to criticize religion to Christianity.

No. I owe Christianity nothing. I owe all of these things to those strong enough and wise enough to overcome the blocks placed in their path BY Christianity.

Philosophy was constrained for centuries by religious dogma. Modern Medicine was delayed for CENTURIES by clerical rulings and church demands.

As for freedom to criticize - if the churches had their way, I would be burned at the stake as a heretic. Freedom of thought has no place in Christianity.

A bunch of nice, god fearing people - whom your god crushes like bugs under a falling house. To test Job. Nothing really to do with them - I guess they're just collateral damage.

Oh my nothing... Jehoah looks like Dubya! Now I'm scared - there is a gun-crazy trigger-happy texan over there!


Oh, and let's not forget that the Crusades did a damn good job of destroying EASTERN CHRISTENDOM.

Iirc, Costantinopolis was sacked by the Venetians, with the blessing of the Papacy. Very nice, very charitable...

You do realize that if you were at a trial, and 96% of the planet testified as witnesses on one side, the trial would be over.

96% of the planet testifies to feel God in their hearts and minds.

The defense rests.

You mistake the role of democracy.
Democracies decide on actions, what to do about facts. They do NOT decide about facts. You cannot determine if something is true or not by going by what the majority believes to be true.
The majority used to believe that the world is flat.
The majority of people (even today) believe that witches exist.
The majority of people is dumb beyond belief.

You do realize that if you were at a trial, and 96% of the planet testified as witnesses on one side, the trial would be over.

96% of the planet testifies to feel God in their hearts and minds.

The defense rests.


Okay, on behalf of rational Christians everywhere, I order you to stop typing now.

Please show me where I said that "all atheists are evil."

Psalms 113:1-4.
Psalms 89:5.

Or if you want a non-Biblical explanation...

The universe has a set of finely-tuned physical constants, among them the speed of light, the mass of the various baryons, the gravitational constant, etc.

Science has shown NO REASON why these numbers should be what they are, they JUST ARE. For SOME REASON, the physical constants are precisely tuned to their current settings.

If the mass of any of the baryons were even slightly higher, atoms could not exist. If the gravitational constant were slightly higher, the universe would have contracted back into a singularity eons ago and if it were slightly lower, interstellar bodies could not form. So on, so on, so on.

The fundamental physical constants of the universe are EXACTLY what they would HAVE TO BE in order for our form of life to arise. No scientist has ever satisfactorily explained how his own findings PROVE how the heavens bow before God's plan of sowing the Earth with life. Science has worked itself into a theological corner because they have very conveniently put on themselves, by measuring the laws of physics, a very straightforward proof for the fact that the universe just "happens" to look exactly as it would have to look if a benificent designer with life in mind were to create it.

And of course you're going to argue this point, because I know that none of you have the forebearance to train your skepticism on your own sciences, which prove beyond all doubt conscious cause of the universe.

imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

Douglas Adams

Christianity invented Western civilization. After the pagans devoured the Roman Empire, where did art, philosophy, and literacy survive? The monasteries. The Popes nearly ruined it with their militarism, but it was the real Christians in the monasteries who preserved the ancient legacy of the Greeks. For that, you are welcome.

Actually, it survived in the Arab world. The monasteries did all they could to burn pagan books, well into the 16th century and even after.
Christians have a long tradition of burning books.
And Jews.
And Muslims.
And women.
And other Christians.

Basically, Christians in history would burn everything that could catch fire. The rest was drowned, traditionally.


Our "stupid superstition" is the father of your civilization. You owe every work of philosophy you have ever read to Christianity. You owe every ounce of modern medicine to Christianity. You owe the freedom to criticize religion to Christianity.

You're welcome.

You can thank me as we stand before the Throne together.

Hon, all that you quoted above developed despite Christianity and more often than not in sharp contrast to its teachings.

Actually, it survived in the Arab world. The monasteries did all they could to burn pagan books, well into the 16th century and even after.
Christians have a long tradition of burning books.
And Jews.
And Muslims.
And women.
And other Christians.








...and atheists.

Sorry, just thought I'd add that.

So you believe that the universe has always existed?

Think about it this way. If there were an infinite number of prior events, that means that a time gap of infinite size would have to be bridged before this current moment could be reached... except, oops, an infinity is by definition untraversable. Whoops!

And the multiverse theory is just science fiction that happens to fit the facts. There is neither math nor observational data behind it; it would be as scientific as asserting that unicorns exist, but we just can't observe or interact with them.

just as god is a fiction wich happens to (not) fit the facts. as for the unicorn one, have you tried replacing "unicorn" with "god"?

Please figure out what 'science' means before you go pretending that every atheist physicist's armchair fantasies qualify as science just because it comes from a philisophical disposition with which you are inclined to agree by your fear of being held responsible for your own actions by an all-powerful arbiter.

what makes you think fear motivates us?

Anyone who actually knows... pretty much anything about the state religion of the Nazis is that they were openly hostile towards both church and synagogue.

The state religion of Naziism was an extreme obsession with Norse mythology. The SS slogan "God is us," which some of the people on this forum who apparently know nothing about which they speak, is a slogan taken from a Berserker creed. Their insignia, the two parallel lightning bolts, is a direct replication of Norse religious art.

The Swastika comes from Hinduism. It is a symbol of longevity.

Goebbles' diaries confirm the obvious fact that Hitler's early promises of being a Christian were completely fabricated to placate the masses.

I await any demonstration that Hitler was a Christian.

Openly hostile? Let a German correct you there. Hitler was Christian, and so were most of the Nazi elite. The only two exceptions were Goering and Himmler, I believe, who were fascinated with the old Norse gods.

Sources? Oh, plenty :

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_murphy/religionofhitler.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Hitler.27s_religious_beliefs
http://ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hitler.html
http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Let me know if you need more.
The Catholic church cooperated with Hitler, and the Lutheran church was actually turned into a party organ through Gleichschaltung. Christians were not prosecuted during the 3rd Reich, on the contrary. Christianity was encouraged.

Christianity invented Western civilization. After the pagans devoured the Roman Empire, where did art, philosophy, and literacy survive? The monasteries. The Popes nearly ruined it with their militarism, but it was the real Christians in the monasteries who preserved the ancient legacy of the Greeks. For that, you are welcome.

Our "stupid superstition" is the father of your civilization. You owe every work of philosophy you have ever read to Christianity. You owe every ounce of modern medicine to Christianity. You owe the freedom to criticize religion to Christianity.


Falsehood and contradictions.

"Christianity invented western civilisation" and in the same paragraph "the ancient legacy of the Greeks".
Contradiction. You imply that western civilisation (from the PAGAN, LATIN word "civitas") is founded on things by far older than christianity.

Falsehood. It wasn't until merchantile relationships between the Sea Republics (Genova and Venice) and Islamic lands that the Greek philosophy, preserved by the Moors, re-entered Europe. See guys like Averroe (latinised form of Ibn-Rashid iirc).

I don't owe small things like Pithagoras, Platon, Aristoteles, Demokritos, Sokrates, Gorgia, Eyklides, to a bunch of book-burners.

I don't owe the alphabet I'm using to christianity. I owe it to the Pagan Romans, and before them to the Greeks, the Etruscans and the Phoenicians.

I don't owe the words "philosophy", "science", "mathematics", "geometry", "geography", "number", "algebra", "history", "literature", "justice", "democracy", "advocate", "code", "parliament", "senate", "representative", "zero", "triangle", "line", "multiplication", "tragedy", "comedy", "music", "republic" to christianity, just to quote an incredibily small fraction.

The Roman Empire (and before it, the Roman Republic), was founded by those people you call the PAGANS. The foundations of the "western" civilisation lies in the Mediterranean - Phoenician, Egyptian, Hellenistic, Roman and Arabic.

Now, I'm tired of debating with a person that clearly needs Ancient History 101 and Logics 101.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:

Who does Homoousia think s/he is?

Does s/he not know that if God does love us all then none of us are Godless.

Im so tired of some bozo nutbag insisting his personal philosophy is absolute.
Particularly when its a Christian who claims persecution, and points a holier-than-thou finger at an atheist.

Do these people need a reminder of just how murky, and shaky the very ground that thier own faith is built upon, is?

The fact their bible was written by persons unknown, and times unknown, and translated through several languages, thereby eliminating any actual credibility as being any kind of reliable..

Or that Jesus himself was not considered divine until a council got together, and just "decided" he was the legitimate son of god?

and these people the temerity to suggest that anyone who doesnt buy this obvious crock isnt as wise, or learned as they?

Since its very inception Christianity has been a stain on any place it touches, being directly responsible for some of the worst periods of human history.

If folks want to waste thier lives on this kind of crap, I personally dont care, but dont you dare even begin to think that people who dont need spiritual crutches are weak, or unintelligent.

Im so tired of some bozo nutbag insisting his personal philosophy is absolute.
Particularly when its a Christian who claims persecution, and points a holier-than-thou finger at an atheist.

Do these people need a reminder of just how murky, and shaky the very ground that thier own faith is built upon, is?

The fact their bible was written by persons unknown, and times unknown, and translated through several languages, thereby eliminating any actual credibility as being any kind of reliable..

Or that Jesus himself was not considered divine until a council got together, and just "decided" he was the legitimate son of god?

and these people the temerity to suggest that anyone who doesnt buy this obvious crock isnt as wise, or learned as they?

Since its very inception Christianity has been a stain on any place it touches, being directly responsible for some of the worst periods of human history.

If folks want to waste thier lives on this kind of crap, I personally dont care, but dont you dare even begin to think that people who dont need spiritual crutches are weak, or unintelligent.


Shit yeah, or shouldn't be given guns!

The OP is a fool. Horus is the one true god.

http://www.windows.ucar.edu/mythology/images/horus_sm.jpg

I know tons of atheists, and none of them criticize me for my beliefs. Bottom line (directed @ OP): There are some atheist assholes, but at least as many theist ones. Actually, what the hell am I saying, humanity as a whole is a bunch of assholes (present company included). :p

Yep. It's the ones that can't admit it that piss me off.

Here's yet another site devoted to the destruction of Christianity based on historical evidence.

The Rejection of Pascal's Wager (http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/central.html)

Please show me where I said that "all atheists are evil."

:rolleyes:

The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil.

Actually, it survived in the Arab world. The monasteries did all they could to burn pagan books, well into the 16th century and even after.
Christians have a long tradition of burning books.
And Jews.
And Muslims.
And women.
And other Christians.

Basically, Christians in history would burn everything that could catch fire. The rest was drowned, traditionally.



Hon, all that you quoted above developed despite Christianity and more often than not in sharp contrast to its teachings.




:headbang: Ugh, another person who doesn't know anything about history acting like an authority on it.

Even Arab scholars agree that the Arabs "invention" of modern mathematics was basically a race to see who could steal the most knowledge from China first. From there, it was Christian missionaries on the Arabian peninsula who enabled literacy to spread, and who exchanged ideas with Europe, despite the best efforts of the pagans.

If Christians would "burn everything that could catch fire," I invite you to explain why it is that Copernicus dedicated his work on the true nature of the orbits of planets to the Pope. I then invite you to explain why we have translations of Aristotle and Plato in Latin that are literally centuries older than our oldest copies in Arabic.

The Christian monastic tradition is the reason that civilization exists. The bloodthirsty Catholics you cite certainly were criminals, because Catholicism has been throughout history a very softcore pagan religion, complete with goddess worship and other forms of polytheism, for whom I do not apologize.

Protestantism in particular launched the birth of modern thought, with rational theology and democracy. I invite you to name a single trustworthy historian who would not say that the Protestant Reformation was the direct causative event of modern rational society.

Please, in the future, do not try to confuse the works of some Catholics centuries ago with all of the works of all Christians.

Please, in the future, do not try to confuse the works of some Catholics centuries ago with all of the works of all Christians.

I'll try, if you try not to confuse people who disagree with you with people who are evil. Just a thought.

God is real and I feel him in my heart

No, that's just your coronary bypass acting up again.

No, that's just your coronary bypass acting up again.

Gee, good point.

Why am I the troll again?

I'll try, if you try not to confuse people who disagree with you with people who are evil. Just a thought.



Please show me where I said that people who disagree with me are evil. If you cannot, then I advise you to retract your deceptive statement.

I'm just gonna jump in here real fast, lest the taint of general stick to me, and drop my thoughts on the subject.

There are the atheists who believe that religion is wrong and try to force others to be like them, then there are athiests like me, who feel that the religious are misguided, but respect their decision to believe in something. We make up the majority of the athiest belief.

Also, the only people that I feel can be evil are those without morals. An atheist, just because they don't believe in god, can still have morality and respect for his fellow man.

Now I'm gone, never to return here.

homoousia
rational theology

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Please show me where I said that people who disagree with me are evil. If you cannot, then I advise you to retract your deceptive statement.

See post 195 where someone quotes you (AGAIN!) calling all non-Christians evil.

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God?

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens?

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:
you're precious, lets put you in a jar and forget to poke holes.

If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:Idiots like you who whine when someone questions their faith in the invisible unicorns of SPACE, that you've never seen, heard from, or even have any proof other then a 2000 year old book that has dozens of transcription errors and some translation errors (it's a REED sea, not the RED sea)

Face it: "We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

You do realize that if you were at a trial, and 96% of the planet testified as witnesses on one side, the trial would be over.

96% of the planet testifies to feel God in their hearts and minds.

The defense rests.
But for the sake of arguement I'll call up the 95% of humans already dead and ask them what they believe in. And when they start talking about Zeus or Huitzilopochtli and such, I believe that I could rest my case; you fail to account that dozens of religions have risen, and fallen.

Please show me where I said that people who disagree with me are evil. If you cannot, then I advise you to retract your deceptive statement.

See post #195. I'm tired, and my hip hurts. And I need some painkillers. I'm not doing this any more.

Here's the thing. Anyone can believe in any bloody thing they want, provided nobody's getting hurt who doesn't want to get hurt. I can believe in multiple gods, you can believe in Jehovah, you over there can believe in nothing at all, that other guy over there can believe exclusively in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. WHO THE FUCK CARES?!?! Does my being pagan hurt you somehow? Does your being Christian or atheist or whatever hurt anyone else? So why don't we all stfu and go play in the sandbox like civilized people, m'kay?

Anyone who wants to have an actual discussion about what they believe (not 'come to jeebus') is welcome to telegram me. I see no further need to continue banging my head against this wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homoousia
The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil.




And please show me in here where I say that all atheists are evil?

Atheists regularly use Christian values, whether or not they choose to accept it. An atheist who does not love his neighbor is evil. A Christian who does not love his neighbor is evil. An atheist who does not follow the categorical imperative where ethics are concerned is evil. So would be a Christian.

When you stop using Christian values, you become evil. No where in there is it implied that you must be a Christian to have Christian values.

Next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homoousia
The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil.




And please show me in here where I say that all atheists are evil?

Atheists regularly use Christian values, whether or not they choose to accept it. An atheist who does not love his neighbor is evil. A Christian who does not love his neighbor is evil. An atheist who does not follow the categorical imperative where ethics are concerned is evil. So would be a Christian.

When you stop using Christian values, you become evil. No where in there is it implied that you must be a Christian to have Christian values.

Next.

You seem to be implying that Christians invented morality. I'm not even going to try explaining how stupid that is.

Also, to follow your words, if I do not love my neighbor, I am evil. So if I lived next to Saddam Hussein, I wouldn't be allowed to hate him? If I lived next to Hitler, would I be allowed to hate him? I'm Jewish (not by religion, just by race), and I'm not allowed to hate him for the Holocaust?

Sorry, but I just don't buy that someone who doesn't ascribe to your particular view of what a human should be is evil. Your precious Christian morals are just the church's way of saying: "this is how society should be".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homoousia
The Holocaust artfully illustrates what happens when people stop using Christian values- they become evil.




And please show me in here where I say that all atheists are evil?

Atheists regularly use Christian values, whether or not they choose to accept it. An atheist who does not love his neighbor is evil. A Christian who does not love his neighbor is evil. An atheist who does not follow the categorical imperative where ethics are concerned is evil. So would be a Christian.

When you stop using Christian values, you become evil. No where in there is it implied that you must be a Christian to have Christian values.

Next.

These statements make no sense; You keep forgetting that the majority of
the planet's humans have been of a religion other then Christianity.

The Bible clearly states you should kill people who try to talk some sense into you, and then later tells you not to kill. the guy who tells you that being homosexual is an 'abomination' also states that eating shrimp is too.

Does that mean that every time you eat a shelled animal from the sea you become evil? Does that really make sense to you?

According to the bible Mosy boy broke 4 of the 14 commandments, so you could be 'evil' right now.

Or maybe the last commandment was 'haha April fools guys'

you use Evil in a very lose way. By definition, evil is someone who goes against the 'good' but 'good' is only relative to the society that's proposed it. It's not any different then two sides of a war. they are both evil, and good, depending on who you ask.

You claim that atheists follow Christian values, but that is not true; half of the Christian values follows atheist values that are deep set in the basic thoughts of ever human (IE don't kill peoples) while others are just fabricated by that writer's dislike for a culture, SO, etc.

I don't seem to recall the Good book talking about women's rights and such, in fact, it may even oppress them. Does that mean voting women who don't stay in the kitchen barefoot, and pregnant, are evil?

Im so tired of some bozo nutbag insisting his personal philosophy is absolute.

Hm. Oddly enough, you've just described yourself.

Particularly when its a Christian who claims persecution, and points a holier-than-thou finger at an atheist.

Because we all know atheists are incapable of persecution, right? They don't attack Christians with offensive rhetoric about how they're delusional and believe in a fairy god, right?



Oh yay, here we go.

[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches]The fact their bible was written by persons unknown, and times unknown, and translated through several languages, thereby eliminating any actual credibility as being any kind of reliable..

Or that Jesus himself was not considered divine until a council got together, and just "decided" he was the legitimate son of god?

and these people the temerity to suggest that anyone who doesnt buy this obvious crock isnt as wise, or learned as they?

People? These people? Who are you referring to? Christians? So far, we've got one nutter suggesting this. That's the original poster. You automatically grouping all Christians into this guy's category basically says EVERYTHING about YOUR ability to tolerate different ideas. We get it. You're pissed off about religion. You think it's a farce. You think it's a bunch of bullshit. Is it necessary to be so militant? To the point where you just can't be respectful of other people's beliefs? To the point where you lump everybody in one category and insult them by telling them their religion is crap? That is an ugly, UGLY personality trait to have, and it speaks volumes about your intelligence. You sir are just as ignorant as the original poster.

Since its very inception Christianity has been a stain on any place it touches, being directly responsible for some of the worst periods of human history.

If folks want to waste thier lives on this kind of crap, I personally dont care, but dont you dare even begin to think that people who dont need spiritual crutches are weak, or unintelligent.

These statements make no sense; You keep forgetting that the majority of
the planet's humans have been of a religion other then Christianity.

The Bible clearly states you should kill people who try to talk some sense into you, and then later tells you not to kill. the guy who tells you that being homosexual is an 'abomination' also states that eating shrimp is too.

Does that mean that every time you eat a shelled animal from the sea you become evil? Does that really make sense to you?

According to the bible Mosy boy broke 4 of the 14 commandments, so you could be 'evil' right now.

Or maybe the last commandment was 'haha April fools guys'

you use Evil in a very lose way. By definition, evil is someone who goes against the 'good' but 'good' is only relative to the society that's proposed it. It's not any different then two sides of a war. they are both evil, and good, depending on who you ask.

You claim that atheists follow Christian values, but that is not true; half of the Christian values follows atheist values that are deep set in the basic thoughts of ever human (IE don't kill peoples) while others are just fabricated by that writer's dislike for a culture, SO, etc.

I don't seem to recall the Good book talking about women's rights and such, in fact, it may even oppress them. Does that mean voting women who don't stay in the kitchen barefoot, and pregnant, are evil?



No. Violation of the law of Moses does not make you evil. Please pick up a Bible and read it at least once.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from? Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins? Josef Stalin? Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p

No. Violation of the law of Moses does not make you evil. Please pick up a Bible and read it at least once.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from? Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins? Josef Stalin? Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p

Your right, they do come the background I grew up in, but I wouldn't assume that my 'values' are really a product of your 'christian' society; I could be from the middle east, for example, or My family could be pagan. Perhaps I'm really an advanced scout for an alien invasion force.

In any case, My 'believes' basically boil down to 'don't do anything that would adversely affect of the wellbeing of that person; ruling always in favor of the good of many.'

They were originally 'Christian' but as you can see (maybe you can't), they've been modified to make more sense and less hateful.

but, by all means, attempt to formulate an argument that makes sense.

Your right, they do come the background I grew up in, but I wouldn't assume that my 'values' are really a product of your 'christian' society; I could be from the middle east, for example, or My family could be pagan. Perhaps I'm really an advanced scout for an alien invasion force.

In any case, My 'believes' basically boil down to 'don't do anything that would adversely affect of the wellbeing of that person; ruling always in favor of the good of many.'

They were originally 'Christian' but as you can see (maybe you can't), they've been modified to make more sense and less hateful.

but, by all means, attempt to formulate an argument that makes sense.


As nothing in this post contained anything even remotely resemblant of a refutation to my post, I have no choice but to consider that you agree with me.

No. Violation of the law of Moses does not make you evil. Please pick up a Bible and read it at least once.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from? Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins? Josef Stalin? Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p

Just to give an extreme example:
An' ye harm none, do what ye will.
~The Wiccan Crede (part of it)

Where I come from, Christianity is a minority religion. Open your eyes and look at the other half of the world (Yes, there are people in the East).

My values may be influenced by society. However, there are many OTHER religions, as well as many philosophies that expouse morality (Confucianism for example). Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) does not have to be the source of my values.

there have been "civilised" societies that predated Christianity (ergo their rules had no Christian influence) and there will be civilised societies after Christianity has dissapeared.

I personally think you all give JC a bad name - as an atheist i belive he existed and had some pretty good ideas, it's just a damn shame they went and made a religion out of it.

Most Societies have had rules against killing in cold blood and theft - and most societies have poeple who have broken those rules, including Chritsian ones.

(pot, this is kettle, check your hue)

As nothing in this post contained anything even remotely resemblant of a refutation to my post, I have no choice but to consider that you agree with me.

If by 'agree' you mean that I think your a 'close minded' idiot, then yes.

Christianity is evil and should be outlawed.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from? Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins? Josef Stalin? Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p

Our [atheists] values aren't Christian. Christians might share them, but they aren't Christian. Christians aren't responsible for ethics, morals, values etc. They were a result of evolution and the need for civil treatment among tribes and communities. And if you get all your superior Christian morals from the Bible then why aren't you out burning lesbians?

It always makes me laugh when Christians or religious people in general believe they have some sort of monopoly on ethics and morals, and that all atheists must be out raping and murdering.

Dawkins divorced? Big deal. Did he gets divorced because he is an atheist? No. Christians get divorces. Fuck, Ted Haggard did ice and fucked some male prostitute in the ass. Because he is Christian? No.

Christianity is evil and should be outlawed.



Ugh. Why do I bother.

Ugh. Why do I bother.

I am not sure why either of you bother to troll ... but at least his post was at the level of intelligence this thread deserved

Ugh. Why do I bother.

I am not sure why either of you bother to troll ... but at least his post was at the level of intelligence this thread deserved

I am not sure why either of you bother to troll ... but at least his post was at the level of intelligence this thread deserved

I'm just quoting this to see what my post count is.

No. Violation of the law of Moses does not make you evil. Please pick up a Bible and read it at least once.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from? Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins? Josef Stalin? Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p

Please let me know if you have read a bible at least once in your lifetime. The Law of Moses is not only inclusive of the Ten Commandments, but also dictates the number of steps you can walk on the Sabbath, which was and is still Saturday to followers of Judaism, and so on, etc ad nauseum.

And as for the Christian deity being a jealous one, I can quote you the bible passage where *it* says so.

Deuteronomy 4: 24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

And you know, just because Christians have had an astounding effect on the world's history, doesn't necessarily mean it was the best effect. Consider for a moment the implications of this.

1. History has been made the way it has been made.
2. Christians are a part of history.
3. History wouldn't have been the same without Christians.
4. Ergo, history has been made the way it has been made.

Feel free to replace the word history in this argument with philosophy, modern medicine, politics, really any word at all. This is an argument with the conclusion being the same as the premise. If history wasn't the way it was, it'd be different.

And as for my morality, who's to say it hasn't evolved with us as a species? Why does my morality have to come from another person at all, as opposed to the alternative I'm suggesting now. By the by, this alternative has been suggested many times before by many other people, just as your argument has been suggested many times before, and by much more tolerant people.

Many other species display a form of morality.

A chimpanzee stroking and patting a victim of attack or sharing her food with a hungry companion shows attitudes that are hard to distinguish from those of a person picking up a crying child, or doing volunteer work in a soup kitchen. To classify the chimpanzee's behavior as based on instinct and the person's behavior as proof of moral decency is misleading, and probably incorrect. First of all it is uneconomic in that it assumes different processes for similar behavior in two closely related species. Second it ignores the growing body of evidence for mental complexity in the chimpanzee including the possibility of empathy. I hesitate to call the members of any species other than our own "moral beings", yet I also believe that many of the sentiments and cognitive abilities underlying human morality antedate the appearance of our species on this planet.

It appears that my morality was given to me by my common ancestor with the chimpanzee.

I invite you to name a single trustworthy historian who would not say that the Protestant Reformation was the direct causative event of modern rational society.


Reformation: XVI century. Humanism and Renaissance: XIV century.
You are pwned by your own argument.

Pico della Mirandola wasn't a protestant. Neither were Abelardus and Galileo Galilei, etc, etc.
I might give you tons of historians that wouldn't stretch the importance of the Reformation to that point. But, of course, you will define "trustworthy" and "modern rational" in the way it fits your ideas better, with a poorly motivated logical leap.
I might remember some episodes out of the consequences of the Reformation, like the witch-burnings of Salem - no Catholics there - unless you think that this is a typical modern and rational event.
The problem is fundamentalists, not religions. And there have been, and still are, a lot of fundamentalists in all religions. Just like you are.

Christians have a long tradition of burning books.
And Jews.
And Muslims.
And women.
And other Christians.


If you happen to travel to Roma, go to the market square (Campo de' Fiori). And remember poor Giordano Bruno.

No. Violation of the law of Moses does not make you evil. Please pick up a Bible and read it at least once.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from? Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins? Josef Stalin? Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p

...

The Jewish?

No. Violation of the law of Moses does not make you evil. Please pick up a Bible and read it at least once.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from? Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins? Josef Stalin? Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p

the thing is, when you're an atheist, you don't actually NEED some fucking higher authority to tell you what's good or bad, you get to work it out for yourself. for instance, my values are just "let people do anything they want, as long as it's between consenting adults, and do wathever you want, as long as it hurts no one". and don't tell me it's a christian set of ethics, these are just COMMON SENSE. besides, it includes things like "gay people are just like straight ones, and should have the same rights", "no one deserves to be killed", and some others that are not, I think, exclusively christian... (I'm damn sure about the gay one).

No. Violation of the law of Moses does not make you evil. Please pick up a Bible and read it at least once.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from?

Same place that you do, really: from the societal and cultural context in which we grow up and live our lives, combined with our own personalities and individual background. Christianity chooses a certain subset of our culture, slaps the name "Jesus" on the values, and runs with it. But I can't think of a single original value that has been invented by Christianity. It's all recycled stuff anyhow, so you're no different from anybody else.


Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins?

Given that Christians are MORE likely to go through divorces than non-Christians, and given that the Bible Belt boasts the highest divorce rates in the USA, I guess that getting their values "from the ministry of Christ" really isn't doing that much for them. I mean, their divorce rates are better than even the Godless Heathens(tm)!


Josef Stalin?

I have to admit, it is pretty slim pickins' when a godless person is looking for a role model. We've got Stalin, maybe Mao, and Evil Dawkins to pick from. Meanwhile, Christians can enjoy the choice leadership and shining examples of such visionaries as:

Adolf Hitler
Richard Nixon
Joe McCarthy
James Dobson
Newt Gingrich
Ted Haggart


Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Everybody's values come, in large part, from the society they grow up in. Yours are no different. Your version of "Christianity" is extremely far removed from the Christianity practiced by other people, and the reason you pursue your version is because of your social and cultural context. Hell, why do you think you're Christian in the first place? If you'd been born to a Hindu family, do you really think you'd instantly decide to base your personal moral code on Christianity? Or do you think that you might, just maybe, reflect the morality and values of your upbringing?


Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

The society I grew up in is also overwhelmingly sexist. The society I grew up in is also overwhelmingly unable to locate Iran on a map. The society I grew up in is also overwhelmingly fond of American Idol.

Just because a lot of people do something stupid doesn't mean that you have to be a follower and do it too.

Part of being an adult human being is learning that not everything Society tells you is right. You have to learn to use your own judgment and reason to examine what other people tell you, and see if they really do gel. Because very often, they don't.


Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p
The problem is that you are putting it backwards. Morality precedes religion. Religion is a means of relating and/or enforcing a moral structure that has already been created.

And, of course, if you want to get really technical, Christianity came from Judaism, from ancient Egyptian myths, from Greek and Roman mythology, from the earthy pagan traditions, from Slavic history and mythology, and from a host of other sources. Even Jesus wasn't invented by Christianity. So, really, if this is about tracing our morality back to its sources, we're going to have to go back at least several thousand years before Christ to begin finding our answer.

the thing is, when you're an atheist, you don't actually NEED some fucking higher authority to tell you what's good or bad,
As my Dad used to put it,

"If you are an adult human being who needs God to carve 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' into stone before you get the point, then you're pretty much completely hopeless."

As my Dad used to put it,

"If you are an adult human being who needs God to carve 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' into stone before you get the point, then you're pretty much completely hopeless."

damn right!

Its the Human spirit in all of us that is a true and unquestionable fact that there is a God.We must therfore always not forget that all free people that live and breathe on this planet have a right to practice his or her beliefs.

Its the Human spirit in all of us that is a true and unquestionable fact that there is a God.We must therfore always not forget that all free people that live and breathe on this planet have a right to practice his or her beliefs.

is it really the case?

dang, it's not so unquestionable then.

seriously, how is the human spirit (you may want to give a definition there) a proof of the existence of god?

is it really the case?

dang, it's not so unquestionable then.

seriously, how is the human spirit (you may want to give a definition there) a proof of the existence of god?
Don't bother. Posts like his are just a way for believers to run in, throw their beliefs at everybody, and then run out while screaming "No backsies!!" over their shoulders.

It's a passive-aggressive tactic that lets them feel like they've claimed moral high ground and won the debate or something.

I'm just quoting this to see what my post count is.

You don't need more. Leave it at that. Direct your energy towards getting people to stop feeding the troll/parrot.

:headbang: Ugh, another person who doesn't know anything about history acting like an authority on it.

Even Arab scholars agree that the Arabs "invention" of modern mathematics was basically a race to see who could steal the most knowledge from China first. From there, it was Christian missionaries on the Arabian peninsula who enabled literacy to spread, and who exchanged ideas with Europe, despite the best efforts of the pagans.

If Christians would "burn everything that could catch fire," I invite you to explain why it is that Copernicus dedicated his work on the true nature of the orbits of planets to the Pope. I then invite you to explain why we have translations of Aristotle and Plato in Latin that are literally centuries older than our oldest copies in Arabic.

The Christian monastic tradition is the reason that civilization exists. The bloodthirsty Catholics you cite certainly were criminals, because Catholicism has been throughout history a very softcore pagan religion, complete with goddess worship and other forms of polytheism, for whom I do not apologize.

Protestantism in particular launched the birth of modern thought, with rational theology and democracy. I invite you to name a single trustworthy historian who would not say that the Protestant Reformation was the direct causative event of modern rational society.

Please, in the future, do not try to confuse the works of some Catholics centuries ago with all of the works of all Christians.

Funny, how Aristotle was translated into Latin by the Romans and Plato wrote in Latin himself :rolleyes:
Hon. you are talking to a librarian here. What Christians did and in some places still do to books and civilisation on the whole is nothing short of criminal.
And please stop claiming that Christianity made Western civilisation possible, especially since you do admit yourself that for the first 1.5 millenia of its existence Christianity in Europe WAS Catholic.

Modern thought and rationalism was brought about by a movement called the Enlightenment, which was a purely philosophical movement and had little to nothing to do with Christianity. On the contrary, these people went back to the golden days BEFORE Christianity pushed Europe into the Dark Ages.

No. Violation of the law of Moses does not make you evil. Please pick up a Bible and read it at least once.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss. Christian values come from the ministry of Christ. Whose values do atheists get their values from? Thrice-divorced Richard Dawkins? Josef Stalin? Either tell us the source of your values, or admit that they come from the society you grew up in.

Then admit that the society you grew up in is overwhelmingly Christian.

Then finish the hypothetical syllogism for me. Your values come from your society. Your society is overwhelmingly Christian. Tell us all now, where do your values come from? :p

Some values come from society, others don't.

Ever heard of the Golden Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity)? It's been around for centuries before some scribblers thought of writing examples of it in a book and claim that they've invented it.

When I think atheist values, I am at a loss.That's ok. A lack of imagination is not condemnable :)

I can't say I've checked it recently, but I'm pretty sure looking down your noses at fellow beings was pretty much frowned upon in the Bible.

you are talking to a librarian here

Hey! I didn't know that! This is one of the coolest job EVER!

...working between full bookshelves and written paper...
...in a place where no one is allowed to shout...

*envy*

about the Golden Rule, from wikipedia

"Moses in the Torah recorded the command "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:18)

Some formulations, such as that of Leviticus 19:18, apply explicitly only to members of one's own people, while others, such as that of Leviticus 19:34 and Luke 10:25-37, extend the Rule to apply to human beings outside of one's own people. Jesus not only affirmed Moses but extended his commandment to apply explicitly to all human beings."

This is, in my opinion, the most important teaching of Jesus. Alongside with "forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing" (more or less).

Incidentally, I've seen nowhere in the Bible (both OT and NT) incitations to insult/hate/despise nonbelievers. :eek:

Hey! I didn't know that! This is one of the coolest job EVER!You have no idea...

Hey! I didn't know that! This is one of the coolest job EVER!

...working between full bookshelves and written paper...
...in a place where no one is allowed to shout...

*envy*

Well, I studied librarianship and worked in libraries for years.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a position in one in Ireland so far :(

Well, I studied librarianship and worked in libraries for years.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a position in one in Ireland so far :(

Wait what? You have to study to be a librarian?

:rolleyes: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/175418/an_exclusive_interview_with_richard.html :rolleyes:

This Richard Carrier guy says that naturalism is incompatible with theism and that many of our politicians are closet Godless. Does he not know that the very heavens praise the name of God? Heaven is fictional too.

He was in the armed forces. Why would the government ever voluntarily put firearms in the hands of a Godless human being? If God doesn't matter to him, how could ANYTHING, much less the life of his superiors or fellow citizens? Atheists get locked up at a much lower rate than theists. Atheists are more likely to be law abiding citizens. I trust atheists with guns more than theists, but in reality I think most folks are ok with guns, even theists with their violent, criminal ways.

I'm tired of these atheists coming out and trying to convince me that my faith in God and Christ Jesus the Lord his Son is some kind of a "delusion." God is real and I feel him in my heart as certainly as Mr. Carrier obviously feels hatred towards Him. If God doesn't exist, then what exactly is Mr. Carrier rebelling against? :cool:Nobody's trying to convince you of anything. It's all in your imagination. Atheists are quite content with minding their own business if you folks will just mind yours.

Wait what? You have to study to be a librarian?

Of course you do.

Of course you do.

Aye. As I recall it requires a...graduate degree in Library Studies, correct?

Aye. As I recall it requires a...graduate degree in Library Studies, correct?

Depends on the country.
In Germany, it's a diploma in Library Studies (which equals a Master's degree).

Incidentally, I've seen nowhere in the Bible (both OT and NT) incitations to insult/hate/despise nonbelievers. :eek:

I knew Exodus would be a good place to look for that . . .

Ex 34 12-13

12 Take heed to thy self, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their alters, break their images and cut down their groves:

"forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing" (more or less).that's not a teaching. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, I've seen nowhere in the Bible (both OT and NT) incitations to insult/hate/despise nonbelievers. :eek:
“He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed” (Exodus 22:20).

“If thou shalt hear say . . . Certain men . . . saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword” (Deuteronomy 13:12-15).

“That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman” (2 Chronicles 15:13).

“And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak . . . because thou believest not my words” (Luke 1:20).

“And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost” (Acts 12:23).

“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” (Luke 19:27).

“Wherefore they spake to the king of Assyria, saying, The nations which thou hast removed, and placed in the cities of Samaria, know not the manner of the God of the land: therefore he hath sent lions among them, and, behold, they slay them, because they know not the manner of the God of the land” (2 Kings 17:26). [I like this one in particular. God sends lions to maul those who are ignorant of Him.]