NationStates Jolt Archive

I bring in one point.... Time travel. Star Wars was "A long time ago"... So are they time travelling, or is Star Trek fighting thousands of years of technology after the movies/books....

But I go for Star Wars either way. Death Stars, and cloning. Not to mention if all fails just let the gungans annoy them to death.

*is not really trying*

1: The 1.5 was never given a corresponding speed number. Simply stating that it "can go 1.5 past lightspeed" could mean literally anything.

3: Star Trek vessels are definitely much faster in sub-light travel.

1: No matter what it means, it's still faster than the speed of light. Not only that, in two diffrent scenes involving running away from ISDs, they are said to be catching up with the Falcon.

3: I admit my ignorance to ST vessel speeds, but if they only operate in sub-light (which is below the speed of light, which is slower than the Falcon or the ISDs. Well, other thab warp obviously.), but if the larger vessels are capable of faster-than-light travel, who cares about sub-light? Most of the Empire fleet basically consists of Battleship/Carrier hybrids, so they can wait for a good moment to launch their fighters and bombers. While most of the entire Rebel star-faring vessels are capable of Hyperspace travel.

It's not too hard to gain intel. The Empire has a LOT of probe droids (I don't recall an exact number), and it's possible they could get information from the Ferengi, who care more about money than everything else.

If that was meant as humour I didn't detect it lol.

But if it were serious, I say absolute rubbish lol. The Milky Way is filled with so many species that hate each other, filled with so much detest for one another, For one the Klingons and Romulans would never ally with the Dominion not after such a disasterous war. The Cardassians would never ally with the Dominion and would oppose such action eternally.

The Breen would never ally with the Federation, I think we've seen they have some issues with the red shirts. The Ferrengi, would probably ally itself with the empire, lusting over a possible new Galaxy in which to open markets to, not to mention they can be bribed very easily....

It goes on a bit, but you get the general idea.That is probably true that the factions wouldn't ally, but that isn't the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is to see who wins if we were to combine all the physical and technological attributes of every faction in each galaxy.

I doubt the Empire and Rebels would ally, but for the point of this thread they are allied. Same with some of the other factions in the SW books.

Same with some of the other factions in the SW books.

I thought you didn't want to use the SW books.

Same with some of the other factions in the SW books.

What other factions? Other than the Empire, The Old Republic, the Techno-Union, and the rebels, there are hardly any other heavy military powers that create enough of an impact to be noticed (As for any of the bounty hunters, they can easilt be hired by any of the SW sides). As for the books, they're all some part of the EU, and for the purposes of this thread, the EU isn't part of the SW Universe.

Adding on to what I said a moment ago, Han Solo could have been referring to the actual speed of light, which is 299,792,458 m / s (or 299,792.458 km / s). Which makes the .5 of 1.5 149,896,229 m / s (or, again 149,896.229 km / s). So, in total it ends up being 449,688,687 m / s (or 449,688.687 km / s). What was that number you mentioned for X-Wing speed? 1,350 mph? that's 2,172.6144 kilometers per hour. Slower than the speed of light.

That, and do you know what c stands for, scientifically, in the first place?

(edit)
One more thing, 1,350mph sounds slow for an X-Wing. It is stated in the script (http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html) and on-screen that the Death Star would take 30 minutes to come into firing range. Directly after that scene, Luke jumps in his X-Wing and the different squadrons take off. In those 30 minutes, the X-Wings and Y-Wings reached the Death Star from Yavin IV (which was on the side of the planet opposite the death star?), wasted time trying to hit the exhaust port and avoid Tie Fighters, and eventually blew it up with just seconds to spare. The X-Wing speed you mentioned would take too long of a time to stop the Death Star.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

Neither wins!

Watch Generations, Nemisis, and the Undiscovered Country, and of course The fourth startrek movie (whic hwas the worse)

Undiscovered Country, IMO, is the second best film featuring the original series cast...after Wrath of Khan.

ST IV was a fun movie...far more entertaining than I or V.

I thought Nemesis was better than Insurrection. *ducks*

It says he'll balance the force, not destroy the sith. Look at the end of Episode 3. There are two jedi and two sith left. Therefore, he balanced the force.

Actually at the end of Ep 3 there were more then 2 Jedi left. He balanced the force by causing the jedi to no longer be a politically driven machine. They had grown to be a latargic group controlled byy the republic who were in their own right more concerned about propping up the republic and keeping their own power then they were in trying to bring justice and peace to the galaxy.

3: Star Trek vessels are definitely much faster in sub-light travel. According to the Tie Fighter Pilot's Manual, the X-Wing has a sub-light speed of 100 MGLT, which is around 1,350 MP/H, very close to the top speed of an F-16C Fighting Falcon. And the X-Wing is one of the fastest.


Not true Games are close to the bottom in the Canon Hierarchy. The sub light acceleration of the Enterprise D is 1000G , Slave 1 2500G , Acclamator 3500G according to the TM and ICS. The Enterprise suffered shield failture after beeing hit by 400GW beam in Survivors. This means even a wimpy Tie-Fighter has a good chance to kill a Federation warship.

Actually at the end of Ep 3 there were more then 2 Jedi left. He balanced the force by causing the jedi to no longer be a politically driven machine. They had grown to be a latargic group controlled byy the republic who were in their own right more concerned about propping up the republic and keeping their own power then they were in trying to bring justice and peace to the galaxy.

I think that, since the 6 SW movies are actually the story of Anakin Skywalker, Lucas meant that balance has been restored by Anakin killing the Emperor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

Neither wins!

Wow, that had to have been a pain to video edit. I would assume neither wins due to the limits of the movies and the series. It was still pretty good. Had that superlaser hit (which I think shoots pretty damn fast), no more Enterprise. I also think there is only one episode where the Enterprise explodes, but that wasn't a permanent damage.

Oh, and using that goes against the ST wins argument because there was the whole Imperial fleet beating the crap out of them, and the first few turbolaser shots knocked down the shields.

But, since I suppose it's edited media, it doesn't count anyways.

Wow, that had to have been a pain to video edit. I would assume neither wins due to the limits of the movies and the series. It was still pretty good. Had that superlaser hit (which I think shoots pretty damn fast), no more Enterprise. I also think there is only one episode where the Enterprise explodes, but that wasn't a permanent damage.

Oh, and using that goes against the ST wins argument because there was the whole Imperial fleet beating the crap out of them, and the first few turbolaser shots knocked down the shields.

But, since I suppose it's edited media, it doesn't count anyways.


But what would happen if a fleet similiar in size to the one at Wolf 359 were to be backing the Enterprise in that situation. What if this whole fleet had the phase cloak installed and operational.

Actually at the end of Ep 3 there were more then 2 Jedi left. He balanced the force by causing the jedi to no longer be a politically driven machine. They had grown to be a latargic group controlled byy the republic who were in their own right more concerned about propping up the republic and keeping their own power then they were in trying to bring justice and peace to the galaxy.

Yeah, but only two jedi who could conceivable be a threat to the Sith.

Wow, that had to have been a pain to video edit. I would assume neither wins due to the limits of the movies and the series. It was still pretty good. Had that superlaser hit (which I think shoots pretty damn fast), no more Enterprise. I also think there is only one episode where the Enterprise explodes, but that wasn't a permanent damage.

Oh, and using that goes against the ST wins argument because there was the whole Imperial fleet beating the crap out of them, and the first few turbolaser shots knocked down the shields.

But, since I suppose it's edited media, it doesn't count anyways.


It was a joke :) I didn't mean that that would be what the actual fight looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

Neither wins!

personally i totally agree with this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ecfuj2LFw


technology and 'who beats who' aside, ST is a better, more thought provoking and ultimately original show. i still like SW a lot, its entertaining, gripping and exciting, not to mention really great cinema, but it just doesn't have the depth even a single episode of ST has. i have always loved ST for its ability to deal with complex issues in interesting ways that appeal to me - each episode, especially of TNG, is like a greek morality play - and what really matters to me is not which has better tech or whatever, but which i enjoy more... and ST wins that hands down :)


pretty damn awesome video though :D (seen before but always a pleasure to see again!)
also gotta love these http://www.jsa-clan.net/downloads/starwars/video/troops.mov
http://www.jsa-clan.net/downloads/starwars/video/obi-wan_car_shopping.wmv :p

What other factions? Other than the Empire, The Old Republic, the Techno-Union, and the rebels, there are hardly any other heavy military powers that create enough of an impact to be noticed (As for any of the bounty hunters, they can easilt be hired by any of the SW sides). As for the books, they're all some part of the EU, and for the purposes of this thread, the EU isn't part of the SW Universe.

If we are including the books than there are military powers such as the Hapans and the Chiss which have powerful fleets. The Empire and Republic are of course the largest but these two and I'm sure others I can't remember off the top of my head are also powers not to be messed with lightly.

The key difference is that Star Trek tended--for the most part--to pay attention to science and keep things scientific.

It's called SCI-FI- why the hell does it make it better because it is more scientific?

It's called SCI-FI- why the hell does it make it better because it is more scientific?

to me, it makes it more believable

and i'm not one of those people who doesn't 'get' or like fiction or fantasy, don't get me wrong

But what would happen if a fleet similiar in size to the one at Wolf 359 were to be backing the Enterprise in that situation. What if this whole fleet had the phase cloak installed and operational.

What if the Entire Imperial Navy was in one spot? Hmm? Wouldn't that be scary no? The Empire would have won the battle of the Death Star II with the Executor intact (and possibly no Death Star if Lando wasn't stop, but they could build another one, there was a massive fleet sitting right near it) if the Emperor wasn't too busy making a show for Luke.

I have some questions about this Phase Cloak. Are there any weaknesses to this technology? Does it suck up a lot of power? Where is this phase cloak in the series or the movies? Is it practical to use? Is it also completly invisible to the naked eye? Does it cover up any weapons fired? If the Empire (or anyone else in SW) could see the weapons being fired, they could be able to track the weapons back to where they came from. Or, they could simply ignore said starships and lay waste to everything else.

Actually, as far as the story goes, I agree with the guy in the YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ecfuj2LFw). He has a lot of valid points.

What if the Entire Imperial Navy was in one spot? Hmm? Wouldn't that be scary no? The Empire would have won the battle of the Death Star II with the Executor intact (and possibly no Death Star if Lando wasn't stop, but they could build another one, there was a massive fleet sitting right near it) if the Emperor wasn't too busy making a show for Luke.

Considering they were only able to rustle up four SDs and a SSD in TESB to locate and destroy the Rebellion's HQ and then only put about 20-30 SDs into combat at a major fleet action (Battle of Endor), we can infer from the movies that fleets in Star Wars (at least in the time of the Empire) aren't actually that big.

Maybe this has already been brought up, but I'm told that the statistics offered in the book Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections concerning power output and weapon yield pretty much prove the argument decisively in Star Wars' favour.

Maybe this has already been brought up, but I'm told that the statistics offered in the book Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections concerning power output and weapon yield pretty much prove the argument decisively in Star Wars' favour.

The ICS book, while having pretty pictures, is not canon within the "movies only" universe.

And the power output calculations are disputed by some people, especially considering that it says a quad turbolaser on a transport puts out 200 gigatons per shot, which is pretty ridiciulous...Some of the calcs are dervied from the EU as well.

Considering they were only able to rustle up four SDs and a SSD in TESB to locate and destroy the Rebellion's HQ and then only put about 20-30 SDs into combat at a major fleet action (Battle of Endor), we can infer from the movies that fleets in Star Wars (at least in the time of the Empire) aren't actually that big.

I would count the low number of SDs because they problably had the idea that that Rebels fled from the base with their tail between their legs. Since we don't know how large the Rebel's fleet was during any part of the Movies except in the end of TESB and the middle section of ROTJ, we won't know if the Empire knew how many ships the Rebels had (since that large fleet had to come from somewhere). Although the EU tells us that the Mon Calamarians, whose planet was a large shipbuilding location, rebelled and possibly took a large number of Imperial ships with them as well as their giant cruisers (Which again, didn't happen).

However, since we're still going Movies-only, we have no idea when and how the fleet got so large.

I can only guess at how many ISDs were away from the Battle of Endor, and there aren't any more SSDs (As far as the movies tell us, the EU says otherwise). Although isn't that roughly the same number of vessels from Wolf 359? Quick glance at Wikipedia says there were about 40 fed ships there (while I know Wikipedia's information is suspect at times, the sources say roughly the same thing). Which, as far as I know, was the largest Fed fleet assembled (that 30,000 number still sounds far-fetched).

It can also be said that, one way or another, that while ST can't completely obliterate an asteroid (Even though the one in VOY was artificial and Riker mentions somewhere that some asteroids require two torpedo shots), a single shot from a Turbolaser can, as seen in TESB with the SSD plowing through the asteroid field.

I can only guess at how many ISDs were away from the Battle of Endor, and there aren't any more SSDs (As far as the movies tell us, the EU says otherwise). Although isn't that roughly the same number of vessels from Wolf 359? Quick glance at Wikipedia says there were about 40 fed ships there (while I know Wikipedia's information is suspect at times, the sources say roughly the same thing). Which, as far as I know, was the largest Fed fleet assembled (that 30,000 number still sounds far-fetched).

It can also be said that, one way or another, that while ST can't completely obliterate an asteroid (Even though the one in VOY was artificial and Riker mentions somewhere that some asteroids require two torpedo shots), a single shot from a Turbolaser can, as seen in TESB with the SSD plowing through the asteroid field.

In the very thread you are posting in we have established that in Star Trek there have been fleets of over 100 ships assembled for particular battles in the dominion war and most battles had more than one fleet.

you cant use the asteroid thing to judge anything, an asteroid can be a 100km cube made from clumped ice and dust or be a solid chunk of wankanium ore with a circumference for 4000km, you never know.

The ICS book, while having pretty pictures, is not canon within the "movies only" universe.


SW has a canon hierarchy. Anything that is explanied in a C canon and exist in G canon is considered G canon unless a G canon source disagrees with the explanation.

In the very thread you are posting in we have established that in Star Trek there have been fleets of over 100 ships assembled for particular battles in the dominion war and most battles had more than one fleet.

you cant use the asteroid thing to judge anything, an asteroid can be a 100km cube made from clumped ice and dust or be a solid chunk of wankanium ore with a circumference for 4000km, you never know.

Oh, I'm sorry, I must of missed it somehow. That, and I admit my ignorance of DS9.

Okay, but to make the 'firepower' topic any easier, we need to find something to compare a ST capitol ship phaser to a SW Turbolaser. And since asteroids won't cut it, we need to find something else.

Okay, but to make the 'firepower' topic any easier, we need to find something to compare a ST capitol ship phaser to a SW Turbolaser. And since asteroids won't cut it, we need to find something else.

How about planets? Base Delta Zero operations require a planet turned into a rock without anything of use, which means to the point where the oceans are boiled up, the planetary crust slagged (to get rid of mines and bunkers), etc, etc.

3 Star destroyers are needed to perform a BDZ, presumably to provide a full simultanous coverage of the entire planetoid and complete the operation within 24 hours. Can 3 Federation ships of the line perform the same level of destruction?

Since it's a planet, we can use an earth type planet and calculate how much energy is required to burn the surface to ash and the crust. Using that, calculation of the power output of 3 star destroyers can be estimated with a rough level of accuracy.

Considering they were only able to rustle up four SDs and a SSD in TESB to locate and destroy the Rebellion's HQ and then only put about 20-30 SDs into combat at a major fleet action (Battle of Endor), we can infer from the movies that fleets in Star Wars (at least in the time of the Empire) aren't actually that big.

Not when you have a fleet, in the actual words of the Empire Strikes Back dispersed all over the Galaxy in pursuit of the rebellion.

Okay, but to make the 'firepower' topic any easier, we need to find something to compare a ST capitol ship phaser to a SW Turbolaser. And since asteroids won't cut it, we need to find something else.

Asteroids will do quite nicely. Most share the same composition, and in reference to the particular Trek episode at hand, and the Empire Strikes Back, both asteroid belts were in mid system, depending on which scientific theory you agree on in the formation of planetery solar systems, it's very likely that the composition of the asteroids were similar.

The ICS book, while having pretty pictures, is not canon within the "movies only" universe.

And the power output calculations are disputed by some people, especially considering that it says a quad turbolaser on a transport puts out 200 gigatons per shot, which is pretty ridiciulous...Some of the calcs are dervied from the EU as well.

Just because you don't like it, does not make it any less canon. And we are not debating from the movies only universe, we are debating from canon. Star Wars the movies are a space opera, the expanded universe is just that, the expanded Star Wars universe. What you see in the movies, does not give us enough information on weapon yields and power outputs and the size of the Galactic Empire to provide a concrete debate. However, that is why we use the EXPANDED UNIVERSE so the behind the scene parts of the movies are expanded upon. Ignoring this expansion of the universe you are questioning, just because you dislike what is said, and that it crushes your Trek infested dreams is hardly the ethos of good debating or concession.

Try to keep your opinions and contestings of canon stats to yourself, if its simply because "they seem a tad too high for us."

Considering they were only able to rustle up four SDs and a SSD in TESB to locate and destroy the Rebellion's HQ and then only put about 20-30 SDs into combat at a major fleet action (Battle of Endor), we can infer from the movies that fleets in Star Wars (at least in the time of the Empire) aren't actually that big.

The rebellion consisted of a few fighter squadrons and some outdated relics as warships. While the Imperial Navy, though spread over the entire Galaxy in pursuit consisted of top of the line battleships, and Super battleships.

You gather that the Imperial fleet is small, because you only see a small fleet in a backwater system of the Empire? May I remind you that the Imperial Navy was searching for the rebellion at the time ("Spread over the entire Galaxy), and they can't very well do that if all of their ships are in one place.

They only had a small fleet present because it's all they needed.

Considering they were only able to rustle up four SDs and a SSD in TESB to locate and destroy the Rebellion's HQ and then only put about 20-30 SDs into combat at a major fleet action (Battle of Endor), we can infer from the movies that fleets in Star Wars (at least in the time of the Empire) aren't actually that big.

Rubbish, you are making assumptions without any facts or basis. Why would the emperor muster a vast fleet at Endor if he was intending on leading the rebellion into a tap?

In fact, if I am to do the same as you and make a theory based on mindless opinion, then I suppose I can say, that the task force of thrity Star Destroyers is considered to be a small force by Imperial standards. I'm rather sure you will agree with me, since the force was deemed small enough to hide without detection, in its role as ambushers.

Now, I can go along those lines or simply point out to you, that the force was perfectly adequate and all it had to do was keep the rebel fleet from escaping , while the fully operational death star opened fire on the rebel forces, as a show of symbolism and Imperial might.

I have some questions about this Phase Cloak. Are there any weaknesses to this technology? Does it suck up a lot of power? Where is this phase cloak in the series or the movies? Is it practical to use? Is it also completly invisible to the naked eye? Does it cover up any weapons fired? If the Empire (or anyone else in SW) could see the weapons being fired, they could be able to track the weapons back to where they came from. Or, they could simply ignore said starships and lay waste to everything else.
In order: No. The Ent-D could handle it without any modifications, and it worked on a Oberth class vessel. TNG: The Pegasus. Yes. Yes. Yes, though limited to torpedoes (but they too can be phase-cloaked, so you'd end up with invisible, intangible torpedoes;) ). Torpedoes would be invisible. You can't ignore something you can't see:p

NAS: Yes, general order 24 (mentioned somewhere in TOS) requires a starship to destroy the surface of a planet.


I feel nerdy now.:(

How about planets? Base Delta Zero operations require a planet turned into a rock without anything of use, which means to the point where the oceans are boiled up, the planetary crust slagged (to get rid of mines and bunkers), etc, etc.

3 Star destroyers are needed to perform a BDZ, presumably to provide a full simultanous coverage of the entire planetoid and complete the operation within 24 hours. Can 3 Federation ships of the line perform the same level of destruction?

Since it's a planet, we can use an earth type planet and calculate how much energy is required to burn the surface to ash and the crust. Using that, calculation of the power output of 3 star destroyers can be estimated with a rough level of accuracy.

a few quantom torpedos fired into the atmosphere of a planet can make it uninhabitable i believe. i don't remember seeing it work that way round, but in VOY (somewhere) they use torpedos to set of a chain reaction to repair the atmosphere of a planet. assumedly the reverse is true.

as for the rest of it, i should imagine the advanced ST scanning technology would be able to find key vulnerable spots in the geological makeup of a planet, and would have little problem wreaking terrible damage to the crust. it would just probably take some time and numerous shots with torpedoes, but one decent class ship could probably do it from what i've seen.

however this renders a comparison useless as its not a single shot of a weapon in the ST case

then of course there's the Genesis device, which i'm sure the Klingons would only be too happy to affirm it is, in fact, a weapon ;)

What if the Entire Imperial Navy was in one spot? Hmm? Wouldn't that be scary no? The Empire would have won the battle of the Death Star II with the Executor intact (and possibly no Death Star if Lando wasn't stop, but they could build another one, there was a massive fleet sitting right near it) if the Emperor wasn't too busy making a show for Luke.

I have some questions about this Phase Cloak. Are there any weaknesses to this technology? Does it suck up a lot of power? Where is this phase cloak in the series or the movies? Is it practical to use? Is it also completly invisible to the naked eye? Does it cover up any weapons fired? If the Empire (or anyone else in SW) could see the weapons being fired, they could be able to track the weapons back to where they came from. Or, they could simply ignore said starships and lay waste to everything else.

Actually, as far as the story goes, I agree with the guy in the YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ecfuj2LFw). He has a lot of valid points.



I first saw it on Star Trek the Next Generation, an Admiral came onboard Enterprise with orders for them to find his old ship. Will Riker was an ensign on his ship and had defended him against a mutanist crew. In the process the ship was found inside a asteriod. The cloak was recovered, the Enterprise was sealed inside by the Romulans and the cloak was used to get out. The cloak allowed the Enterprise to move through the solid rock of the asteriod in order to make good their escape.

Just because you don't like it, does not make it any less canon. And we are not debating from the movies only universe, we are debating from canon. Star Wars the movies are a space opera, the expanded universe is just that, the expanded Star Wars universe. What you see in the movies, does not give us enough information on weapon yields and power outputs and the size of the Galactic Empire to provide a concrete debate. However, that is why we use the EXPANDED UNIVERSE so the behind the scene parts of the movies are expanded upon. Ignoring this expansion of the universe you are questioning, just because you dislike what is said, and that it crushes your Trek infested dreams is hardly the ethos of good debating or concession.

Try to keep your opinions and contestings of canon stats to yourself, if its simply because "they seem a tad too high for us."

I refer you to George Lucas' "parallel universes quote" and the establishment of the movies only and moves+EU continuity. The fact the GL, the essential "God" of Star Wars, doesn't even read most of the EU is enough for me. Add to that the idea of two universes and you end up with movie canon and movie+EU canon.

As explained earlier, the EU is an interpretation of Star Wars, not defenitive Star Wars. Until GL says that it happened, it didn't actually happen in the movies universe, which I would assume would be higher up on the scale the the movies+EU continuity.



The rebellion consisted of a few fighter squadrons and some outdated relics as warships. While the Imperial Navy, though spread over the entire Galaxy in pursuit consisted of top of the line battleships, and Super battleships.

Please tell me you're not one of those people who actually consider Star Destroyers actual destroyers.

And I will conceed the point on TESB.

Rubbish, you are making assumptions without any facts or basis. Why would the emperor muster a vast fleet at Endor if he was intending on leading the rebellion into a tap?

Because it was a TRA designed to crush the rebellion once and for all? If they were able to hide 30-40 ships behind the Endor moon, surely they could've hid many more. If the fleet is really in the millions, as some claim, then they could've had hundreds without even putting a dent in their operations.


In fact, if I am to do the same as you and make a theory based on mindless opinion, then I suppose I can say, that the task force of thrity Star Destroyers is considered to be a small force by Imperial standards. I'm rather sure you will agree with me, since the force was deemed small enough to hide without detection, in its role as ambushers.

Except my theory is based on onscreen evidence and yours is based on...nothing.

Now, I can go along those lines or simply point out to you, that the force was perfectly adequate and all it had to do was keep the rebel fleet from escaping , while the fully operational death star opened fire on the rebel forces, as a show of symbolism and Imperial might.

If that's the case, then the Emperor is pretty damn stupid for putting all of his trust in a single superweapon.

I refer you to George Lucas' "parallel universes quote" and the establishment of the movies only and moves+EU continuity. The fact the GL, the essential "God" of Star Wars, doesn't even read most of the EU is enough for me. Add to that the idea of two universes and you end up with movie canon and movie+EU canon.

As explained earlier, the EU is an interpretation of Star Wars, not defenitive Star Wars. Until GL says that it happened, it didn't actually happen in the movies universe, which I would assume would be higher up on the scale the the movies+EU continuity.

Firstly I dispute your interpretation of the quote. The whole quote reads "There are two worlds here ... There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

He is obviously referring to real life events and how it works. The Expanded Universe runs alongside his work, and exists between his work, and is accepted by him. In his own words "They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies."

From that one quote, it is obvious that Lucas accepts the Expanded Universe as canon and as existing only when it does not come into conflict with what he himself has written.


Please tell me you're not one of those people who actually consider Star Destroyers actual destroyers.

And I will conceed the point on TESB.

Theres nothing for you to concede apart from that you're deluding yourself from fact.

Because it was a TRA designed to crush the rebellion once and for all? If they were able to hide 30-40 ships behind the Endor moon, surely they could've hid many more. If the fleet is really in the millions, as some claim, then they could've had hundreds without even putting a dent in their operations.

Nonsense, the rebellion had a very large spy network in place, to summon vast hordes of warships would have ruined the trap. The took enough to get the job done, with the provision of having a very large battlestation to assist. To use the Imperial Navy would defeat the emperors point of the supremacy of the new order, and the fear from the single ultimate weapon.


Except my theory is based on onscreen evidence and yours is based on...nothing.

No, yours is based on personal interpretation as is mine. Except my logic follows conventional military procedure, after all, when was the last time the USA sent in 500,000 marines to spring an ambush. Usually it's just one squad or so....


If that's the case, then the Emperor is pretty damn stupid for putting all of his trust in a single superweapon.

I'm rather sure, if you had a moon sized battlestation capable of destroying an entire planet at your finger tips, you too would be a little bit cocky.

Unified Sith, I may note that I tried the exact same thing with the Lucas quote, and didn't nudge them either way. I suggest another approach, or a better explanation that I did.

I'm also surprised there wasn't any objections to DBZ, as I suppose it's also EU.

Unified Sith, I may note that I tried the exact same thing with the Lucas quote, and didn't nudge them either way. I suggest another approach, or a better explanation that I did.

I'm also surprised there wasn't any objections to DBZ, as I suppose it's also EU.

I know, but when will they realise that it's pointless to resist? Them and their red shirt agenda. They won't be happy until we're all free loving, communists.

I know, but when will they realise that it's pointless to resist? Them and their red shirt agenda. They won't be happy until we're all free loving, communists.
You guys are still ignoring the fact that Lucas made a point of noting that the EU is exactly the same as the Trek books. As much as you like the EU, George has declared it not a part of his world.

You guys are still ignoring the fact that Lucas made a point of noting that the EU is exactly the same as the Trek books. As much as you like the EU, George has declared it not a part of his world.

Sounds to be interpertation of his comments. Seems he feels more that he accepts the books but if they get in his way then they become moot. Besides, there are many more hours of ST to gain info from, without SW books there wouldn't be much to debate on as the movies leave much out.

And, why wouldn't he accept the EU as canon? The EU contains all pertinent information regarding starship specs, world histories, and other. Furthermore, you accepted that these things were happening in the background, just because it was not in the movies, doesn't mean it isn't part of the SW universe.

Also, in that same quote, he specifically calls the 'other world' the world of licensing, books, etc., and specifically calls 'his world' the movies. Why not just say that everything other than the movies were not part of the Star Wars universe. Without the EU, a lot of important details are left out.

I believe Lucas does support the EU, but doesn't dabble in it. Even then, there is no specific 'canon policy' for either the ST companies or the SW companies.

And, why wouldn't he accept the EU as canon? The EU contains all pertinent information regarding starship specs, world histories, and other. Furthermore, you accepted that these things were happening in the background, just because it was not in the movies, doesn't mean it isn't part of the SW universe.
And things happen in the background in Trek, but until we see it on the screen it ain't canon. It's fan speculation, end of story.

Also, in that same quote, he specifically calls the 'other world' the world of licensing, books, etc., and specifically calls 'his world' the movies. Why not just say that everything other than the movies were not part of the Star Wars universe. Without the EU, a lot of important details are left out.
He DID say that they are not part of his world. He IS Star Wars. Why can't you accept this fact? If he says that it's not part of his world, then it's not part of his world.

I believe Lucas does support the EU, but doesn't dabble in it. Even then, there is no specific 'canon policy' for either the ST companies or the SW companies.
Of course he supports it, it makes him money. Just like Paramount/CBS supports the Trek novels, it makes them money, but it STILL does not make them canon. Yes, it leaves a lot out, but thems the breaks. LoTR leaves a whole lot out of Tolken's universe (Even with the other books), but it doesn't mean that anything that is made up and licensed by his estate becomes canon unless it is stated as such.

Sounds to be interpertation of his comments. Seems he feels more that he accepts the books but if they get in his way then they become moot. Besides, there are many more hours of ST to gain info from, without SW books there wouldn't be much to debate on as the movies leave much out.
Don't think so:

"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions." George Lucas (Emphasis mine)

It sounds very clear to me.

a few quantom torpedos fired into the atmosphere of a planet can make it uninhabitable i believe. i don't remember seeing it work that way round, but in VOY (somewhere) they use torpedos to set of a chain reaction to repair the atmosphere of a planet. assumedly the reverse is true.

No, no, no. Atmospheric destruction/repair isn't enough. BDZ's specifically state that the planet has to be rendered completely worthless, or something along that line, I forget the exact wording. That means you have to make sure that there isn't anything of value left. So you have to boil the oceans to nothing and crack the crust so as to hit any deep mines and shelters that might survive otherwise. So that means getting rid of the planetary crust, not destabilizing, but vaporizing it. I don't have the figures, but the energy required is astronomical for that level of destruction on an earth sized body.

Because it was a TRA designed to crush the rebellion once and for all? If they were able to hide 30-40 ships behind the Endor moon, surely they could've hid many more. If the fleet is really in the millions, as some claim, then they could've had hundreds without even putting a dent in their operations.


???

I don't know about the cloak capabilities of a Star Destroyer, but any military planner will tell you there's only so many forces you can hide for an ambush without giving the game away. When planning an ambush, concealment is a priority. Given the size of a star destroyer, which is roughly 1.7km I think, there's only so much space you can have behind a moon to hide ships before the nose or rear of one sticks out and gives the game away.

Your statement of adding hundreds just because they had the numbers to spare doesn't make logical sense for an ambush.


If that's the case, then the Emperor is pretty damn stupid for putting all of his trust in a single superweapon.

What did you expect? He's a bad guy, he has an evil empire. So he falls under the Evil Overlord category. Thereby, he is forbidden from reading the Evil Overlord's manual. If he was smart, Luke would probably have been dropped into a live incinerator while under custody while he called in a much larger assault force.

But he's a bad guy, and following the rule of thumb, bad guys make stupid mistakes so clueless heroes can beat them.

No, no, no. Atmospheric destruction/repair isn't enough. BDZ's specifically state that the planet has to be rendered completely worthless, or something along that line, I forget the exact wording. That means you have to make sure that there isn't anything of value left. So you have to boil the oceans to nothing and crack the crust so as to hit any deep mines and shelters that might survive otherwise. So that means getting rid of the planetary crust, not destabilizing, but vaporizing it. I don't have the figures, but the energy required is astronomical for that level of destruction on an earth sized body.
See my previous post.

See my previous post.

Your previous post dealt with a phase cloak. I don't quite see the connection.

Your previous post dealt with a phase cloak. I don't quite see the connection.
Should I spell out your complete name next time?;)
NAS: Yes, general order 24 (mentioned somewhere in TOS) requires a starship to destroy the surface of a planet.

Should I spell out your complete name next time?;)

Yeah, so I missed it. As for that order, can you be more specific? Like, how many ships are needed to execute said order, how long, etc, etc.

Yeah, so I missed it. As for that order, can you be more specific? Like, how many ships are needed to execute said order, how long, etc, etc.

You know, I actually don't care either way, but I'm still nice enough to offer you a potential resource:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html

Do with it as you will.

From what I recall it requires one ship (The Enterprise in this case) and an unspecified amount of time, I'd say probably a couple of hours to two days at most.

You know, I actually don't care either way, but I'm still nice enough to offer you a potential resource:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html

Do with it as you will.

Read the site, the author seemed a bit biased in his fact picking in some areas. Civilized vs uncivilized worlds don't seem to hold any difference to him in terms of effort required to sterilize.

I'd say civilized worlds take a bit more effort because the inhabitants are usually capable of contesting your intentions.

He also ignores deep deposits of ore or other resources that can be considered natural resources of value when talking about targets.

Hmmm, topsoil is about 15-20 cm deep, and Earth's surface area is 510,065,600Km² or so. Hmmm, so for an even dispersion, we're looking at around 10,201,312,000 cubic kilometers of topsoil to atomize. Still a lot of firepower required.

As for deep planet shelter, no idea if it's even remotely possible, but can you put a shelter under the crust and inside the mantle?

But let's put that all aside and propose the ultimate SW vs ST fight. Darth Vader vs Kirk in a stand up boxing match. Should be amusing to say the least.

He DID say that they are not part of his world. He IS Star Wars. Why can't you accept this fact? If he says that it's not part of his world, then it's not part of his world.

You're right he did say it's not a part of HIS personal real life world because he is a busy man. But he did say that it is a part of The Star Wars Universe. He accepts them, he says they exist, they work and move around what he does. He has said the books are fine unless they conflict with what I say or do.

Of course he supports it, it makes him money. Just like Paramount/CBS supports the Trek novels, it makes them money, but it STILL does not make them canon. Yes, it leaves a lot out, but thems the breaks. LoTR leaves a whole lot out of Tolken's universe (Even with the other books), but it doesn't mean that anything that is made up and licensed by his estate becomes canon unless it is stated as such.

I believe Lucas Arts has stated it as such and he has also said he accepts them. You are trying to wrangle on semantics because acception of the canon universe just goes to show the true scope of the Star Wars Universe. But I suppose you are a tool of the red shirt agenda.

I think that, since the 6 SW movies are actually the story of Anakin Skywalker, Lucas meant that balance has been restored by Anakin killing the Emperor.

You may have a point there....it was late I was tired...but I may give some points to ya.

Yeah, but only two jedi who could conceivable be a threat to the Sith.

I do not think I agree with that many of those others could have been a threat and were fairly powerful the thing is the purge caused many to decide just to go in hiding and bide their time then to force a confrontation against odds that they had no chance to win against since the Sith had the forces of the empire at their disposal.

Star Wars Is Way Better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not think I agree with that many of those others could have been a threat and were fairly powerful the thing is the purge caused many to decide just to go in hiding and bide their time then to force a confrontation against odds that they had no chance to win against since the Sith had the forces of the empire at their disposal.

The Jedi had prophecy working in their favour, not only that but the Sith had become what the despised about the Jedi. Arrogant in their power, sure and secure of their purpose and situation.

Palpatine - "Your arrogance blinds you master Yoda."

The Sith defeated the Jedi because they had changed their ways and methods of fighting. The Jedi no longer went straight out for conflict as they had done previously, instead they had chosen politics and the same shadows to which the Sith themselves had clung to.

At the fall of the old Republic the Jedi too changed, their ways were sacrificed for the Sith knew how to destroy them through their traditions and arrogance. Instead, the Jedi became like the Sith, they evolved their ways of thinking, and fighting, while Palpatine, believing there were only Old Order Jedi alive, felt and rightly so, that they would use old order tactics and traditions, he was capable of fighting that, but did not expect the children of Anakin Skywalker to rise with new beliefs and new methods.

In the EU, besides Palpatine's 10,000 returns, do the sith ever actually come back, or are all darkside users just dark jedi now?

In the EU, besides Palpatine's 10,000 returns, do the sith ever actually come back, or are all darkside users just dark jedi now?

Yes they do the newest series "Legacy of the Force" shows some of it. But there is also a new series coming out set 100 years down the road where the Sith return in larger numbers they abandon the "rule of two" and turns back more towards the older traditional methods with many Sith Lords with a supreme controling Sith Lord at the top.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k54/fryman04/coolprofile/Images/Funny_Myspace_Images/images/32.gif

In the EU, besides Palpatine's 10,000 returns, do the sith ever actually come back, or are all darkside users just dark jedi now?

As far as I know, Emperor Palpatine is the only sith in the European Union.


:D

After trudging about on the Internet for awhile, I located an interview with Leland Chee (the keeper of the Holocron, the guy in charge of what's admissible for anything outside the movies) and Wizards of the Coast (link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031204leland)). This was found while trying to find an official quote from someone equivalent to Paula Block as far as the SW universe is concerned.

Here's some 'important' highlights
(Any emphasis is mine...).

Wizards: Let's say that you come across two or more contradictory sources while chasing down a reference. How do you decide which one to accept as "canon"?

Leland: Everything is looked at on a case-by-case basis. Among the factors we consider: In how many sources does this particular fact appear? Which source has the largest audience? Which explanation is the coolest? Have we been told by George Lucas to avoid this topic? If, after weighing all those variables, the answer isn't yet clear, the issue is presented to an internal group that makes the final determination as to which source is "correct."


*coughs* Oh look, they do decide which is and is not canon as far as the EU goes for any and all contradictions.

Also, I looked at Mr. Chee's (aka Tasty Taste (http://blogs.starwars.com/webapps/blogs/view-profile.action?userID=414903)) blog (link (http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/4)) himself. I found this little gem (again, any emphasis mine).


Q: Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as canonical & non-canonical? Are there various degrees of "officialness"?

A: The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else from the EU. There is a secondary "S" continuity classification used for older published materials created when there was less attention to making everything in the EU fit with everything else in the EU. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon entry that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction. Any contradictions that arise are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Oh look, there is 'secondary' canon. By the person whose job it is to collect all CORRECT information about the Star Wars universe. Arguing with this is the same as arguing with Paula Block (known head licensee of ST, whose job is roughly the same).

So, given all this, why wouldn't one in charge of all SW knowledge not include the EU? HMM!? The words canon are placed all over both quotes, and since I have links to both, you can hardly contest them.

Lucas > other persons.