NationStates Jolt Archive

This debate has occurred many times on this site, but it's always a fun one to revisit. So let's continue with the great nerdy and petty debate.

The question is which universe wins if all factions in one universe were to fight all the factions in the other.

NOTE: The Force cannot be applied and neither can Q. Let's just face it, if the Q Continuum could be included, all that would happen is Q would snap his fingers to negate the SW universe and make George Lucas get a sex change.

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I'm going with Star Trek:

Star Trek has many more warships than the Star Wars universe has.

By the TNG/DS9 era, the Federation has about 30,000 starships in service. These range from the wimpy Oberths to the mighty Sovereign, Promethius, and Defiant class vessels.

The Klingon Empire has even more. By the start of the Dominion War, they still have more vessels than the Federation. This is despite the fact they lost much of their fleet during the recent wars against the Federation and Cardassians.

The Romulan Star Empire has a smaller fleet size, but their D'deridex class warbirds are very deadly.

The Cardassians had around 15,000 vessels by the time they signed their treaty with the Dominion. Much of their fleet was lost in the surprise attack by the Klingons.

The Dominion has a massive fleet. In the late stages of the war, they had over 30,000 vessels in the Alpha Quadrant alone. This is a large number, but this was a sheer minority of their total fleet. The vast majority of their ships were on the other side of the Bajoran Wormhole.

There is also the Breen. Their fleet size has never been alluded to, but the SW ships wouldn't survive a hit from their energy weapon, which killed the Defiant.

There are many other large factions in the ST universe such as the Gorn, Borg, Ferengi, Orion, and Xindi.

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The SW ships may be larger, but the sheer number of ST ships and their weapons make it obvious ST would win.

All it took to kill a super-star destroyer was an A-Wing crashing into it. That's just simply a sad statement about their ships. Alright, the Odyssey was killed in a kamikaze run, but the Dominion vessel was much closer in size to the Odyssey.

I realize that the destroyer lost its shields first, but the shield generator was easily taken out in a single pass by a few fighters. The shield generator was an easy target atop the bridge. That is very different from ST where the various shield generators are placed like a grid on the duranium hull plates.

By the end of Voyager, Starfleet is able to obtain transphasic torpedoes thanks to Janeway's violation of the Temporal Directive. These torpedoes can pass through shields and hulls to destroy vessels in a single blow.

Other weapons like the Borg cutting ray are unaffected by shields. The Breen energy weapon isn't only unaffected by shields, but it takes them down along with every other electically powered system on the ship.

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Fighters vs. Starships:

The many SW fighters would not be effective against the best Federation starships. I do grant they would be able to harm any vessel predating the Ambassador class ships.

Ships prior to the Ambassador class had phaser banks instead of arrays. These could only be fired in a single concentrated beam. The Ambassador class and later ships with phaser arrays can divide up the power for the phasers and simultaneously fire several beams at various targets.

If a Galaxy class were attacked by a dozen tie fighters, she could simply split the power from her phasers to simultaneously fire 12 beams with 1/12 the power of a concentrated beam at each target and kill it.

There is another thing ST ships can do, they can simply go to warp and engage their enemy while at warp speeds. ST ships have the ability to fight at warp speeds. SW ships can't so they would be sitting ducks as the ST ships make passes at them.

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Many SW fans argue their ships are faster. This is simply not the case. The only onscreen reference to speed told us that the Millenium Falcon (fastest ship in SW) had a top speed of 1.5 c. Even the old NX class could run circles around that at 140.6c. There is also the fact that the Borg have Transwarp capabilities, which give them almost infinite speed.

Perhaps the reason why the Falcon can quickly transverse the galaxy is that the SW galaxy is much smaller than the Milky Way. It's a definite possibility since galaxies definitely have a large variance when it comes to their sizes. Scientists have actually discovered real galaxies only 1/100 the size of the Milky Way.

Even at sub-light speed, ST ships are faster. SW ships have weak ion engines. Compare that to ST impulse drives. Even in TMP, the Enterprise achieved a speed of .5c under impulse alone. By TNG era they could go .75c under impulse.

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Infantry combat:

Star Trek wins here once more. There is no way SW would be able to deal with transporters.

Phasers have also been shown to be much more powerful than blasters. At type 16 setting, they can cause large explosions. If someone were to fire it a few meters in front of a Jedi, it would cause a large explosion while being out of the range of deflection by the lightsaber.

There are also projectile weapons like the TR-116. That weapon can be fitted with a transporter to fire through bulkheads.

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Stealth

ST ships have cloak. Some newer cloaks allow vessels to pass through solid matter when cloaked. Vessels like the Scimitar and Chang's Bird of Prey can fire when cloaked.

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Planet destruction

Yes the Death Star can easily kill planets. It isn't anything ST ships can't do. Any vessel can have a trilithium device placed into a photon torpedo or probe. that device can then be fired at a star. Not only is the star destroyed, but the shockwave destroys every planet in the system. The Defiant also showed us that 2 quantum torpedoes fired into an atmosphere can make a planet unlivable. Even a Danube class runabout can destroy an entire starsystem. The changeling who replaced Bashir attempted to do this.

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Now I believe I've proven that ST is better than SW. I also believe I've proven I'm a nerd who watches way too many re-runs on Spike TV between classes.

*snip*

Now I believe I've proven that ST is better than SW. I also believe I've proven I'm a nerd who watches way too many re-runs on Spike TV between classes.
You've also proved that you did not even read the last thread, wherein half of those exact unchanged arguments were debunked. Is this a war of attrition?

Star Trek. Ok, we don't have Q, but if the Organians are there... well, every control on any SW ship cannot be touched.

You've also proved that you did not even read the last thread, wherein half of those exact unchanged arguments were debunked. Is this a war of attrition?
Only if you count the extended universe as cannon, which I don't.

Star Trek wins because of Tribbles.

That Death Star will be packed full within a week.

[/thread]

I'm fairly certain that my post in the last thread was ignored. The Yuuzhan Vong would walk all over the Star Trek types. They wouldn't even know what hit them.

Let's see, the borg would assimilate the ewoks, totally obliterating the entire collective.

Let's see, let's get the Dominion involved, and...


Yeah. Star Wars is pretty much fucked.

Oh, and if we're counting books, even though Q's out, let's bring in 0 and *.

Oh yeah. 0 bitches. The guy who required three members of the Q continium and several hundred years to take him down.

Oh God! Not FUCKING Again!

I'm going to settle this once and for all. If you want to go by the book (the Big Book of Physics), then whoever can get a rock to smack into their enemy's homeworld first wins. Anything moving fast enough will be a weapon of unimaginable horror.

See Relativistic Weapons (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#rbomb) for a more detailed explanation of what I mean.

Oh God! Not FUCKING Again!

I'm going to settle this once and for all. If you want to go by the book (the Big Book of Physics), then whoever can get a rock to smack into their enemy's homeworld first wins. Anything moving fast enough will be a weapon of unimaginable horror.

See Relativistic Weapons (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#rbomb) for a more detailed explanation of what I mean.

Heh. According to one of the books, Q caused the extinction of the dinosaurs by flinging an asteroid at 0 that missed.

Of course, Star Wars has the Sun Crusher, the Galaxy Gun, and the Death Star.

I'm fairly certain that my post in the last thread was ignored. The Yuuzhan Vong would walk all over the Star Trek types. They wouldn't even know what hit them.
Give me a break, the Yuuzhan Vong are pretty much a rip off of Species 8472.

Give me a break, the Yuuzhan Vong are pretty much a rip off of Species 8472.

Oh yeah...those guys.

Let's face it, once the founders come in Star Wars is fucked.

Technically, Warp Speed and hyperdrive are different. Warp Speed is just moving at insane speeds, whereas hyperspace is an alternate dimension.

Technically, Warp Speed and hyperdrive are different. Warp Speed is just moving at insane speeds, whereas hyperspace is an alternate dimension.
Depending upon how you look at it, it's the same. Warp drive creates a subspace bubble around the ship, warping the space/time continuum fore and aft, and the ship surfs along at a (almost) stationary rate.

First of all check out this link: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

You can see that, as far as technology is concerned, the Empire easily outclasses the Federation, and possibly many of the other races. Massive firepower, can move faster through hyperspace, and a million or so worlds.

Feel free to read most of the site until I have more time to make a detailed rebuttal and argue some points...

Only if you count the extended universe as cannon, which I don't.

Since LucasArts reconizes them as canon you lose.

Since LucasArts reconizes them as canon you lose.
Odd, George Lucas doesn't reconize it.

But, tell ya what, IF it is truely cannon, explain to be two points:

How DID Darth Vader lose his right hand?

And how WAS he the chosen one if the damn Sith keep poping back up again?

First of all check out this link: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

You can see that, as far as technology is concerned, the Empire easily outclasses the Federation, and possibly many of the other races. Massive firepower, can move faster through hyperspace, and a million or so worlds.

Feel free to read most of the site until I have more time to make a detailed rebuttal and argue some points...
This is universe vs universe, not Empire vs Federation.

Now I believe I've proven that ST is better than SW. I also believe I've proven I'm a nerd who watches way too many re-runs on Spike TV between classes.

You've proven a severe lack of understanding of either universe. I could easily take apart your entire argument (and I seldom debate ST vs SW) but it serves no purpose other waste an hour of my time and further demostrate my lack of a productive hobby.

Babylon 5 is the best :D

Odd, George Lucas doesn't reconize it.

But, tell ya what, IF it is truely cannon, explain to be two points:

How DID Darth Vader lose his right hand?

And how WAS he the chosen one if the damn Sith keep poping back up again?

I could care less about the novels, what matters for vs debates are the notorious Incredible Cross Sections books, which are canon and establish capabilities for prequel era ships (not even as powerful as OT era vessels) that far exceed most anything in Star Trek.

A large collection of nerds arguing which fictional universe would win in a fight...*sigh*

The Forerunners

/win

Of course, Star Wars has the Sun Crusher, the Galaxy Gun, and the Death Star.
And Trek has the sun-popping solar torpedo, the Genesis device, and probes fired at even warp 1 which could do lots of kinetic damage.

Halo will beat both. It has the capability to blast clear either or both galaxies of all sentient life, thereby negating any and all conflict.

End of thread.

Halo will beat both. It has the capability to blast clear either or both galaxies of all sentient life, thereby negating any and all conflict.

End of thread.
Didn't that almost happen in an episode of Stargate too?

Enough with the 'save the world' sci-fi already. There are only so many times a small group of heroes can pull it off without a scratch. Hell, it seems like the situations should be once in a lifetime events.

Technobabble vs. Fantasy-in-Space.

Whichever you think would win, you lose.

You might as well discuss what tastes better: superglue, or battery acid.

And how WAS he the chosen one if the damn Sith keep poping back up again?

It says he'll balance the force, not destroy the sith. Look at the end of Episode 3. There are two jedi and two sith left. Therefore, he balanced the force.

And Trek has the sun-popping solar torpedo, the Genesis device, and probes fired at even warp 1 which could do lots of kinetic damage.

Ah. I'd forgotten the Genesis device.

It says he'll balance the force, not destroy the sith. Look at the end of Episode 3. There are two jedi and two sith left. Therefore, he balanced the force.

Some fucking balance...evil rules the galaxy while good goes and hides in the boondocks.

You're all wrong, ST and SW Universe are in the Matrix, and all that has to happen is that The Architect would have to erase the codes that make up both Universe and that would be the end of it!

Matrix FTW.

It says he'll balance the force, not destroy the sith. Look at the end of Episode 3. There are two jedi and two sith left. Therefore, he balanced the force.
Yeah, I really couldn't get how they could have missed something like that. "The Sith have been dead and gone for a really long time now and there are only Jedi. This boy will balance the Force." If the dark side is gone and he'll balance the force then that means he's going to either destroy the light side or bring back the dark side! So obvious. Course ol' Ben had trouble figuring out the location of a system even though star charts showed the center of a gravity well in the middle of nowhere. "Hmm...This space junk seems to be revolving around a spot of empty space like it would arund a star. I wonder what it could mean..."

It says he'll balance the force, not destroy the sith. Look at the end of Episode 3. There are two jedi and two sith left. Therefore, he balanced the force.
Go listen to George Lucas's comments on the Ep III DVD, he says point blank that Vader, in killing the Emperor and dying himself, fulfilled the chosen one shick.

This, to my mind, calles in the problem of the expanded universe suddenly popping up in Sith Lords (Not to mention the Emperor again, and again). Since George says what IS canon...

I'm taking Mr. Lucas at his word, his Star Wars and the Expanded Universe are not the same.

I'm taking Mr. Lucas at his word, his Star Wars and the Expanded Universe are not the same.
Indeed, the EU is fandom. Marketed fandom but nothing more.

Go listen to George Lucas's comments on the Ep III DVD, he says point blank that Vader, in killing the Emperor and dying himself, fulfilled the chosen one shick.

Hmmm, that's an interesting interpretion really. Vader brings balance to the force...by completely wiping out all the old guard, Sith and Jedi.

Now THAT'S balance. :p

Hmmm, that's an interesting interpretion really. Vader brings balance to the force...by completely wiping out all the old guard, Sith and Jedi.

Now THAT'S balance. :p
Damned if I know. Go ask George about it.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/

Star Trek wins.

Also, for those concerned about the canonicity of the EU, I suggest www.canonwars.com where Darkstar moved all of his bits on the canon policies of Paramount and Lucas Films. Basically, there's plenty of evidence for the EU to be considered non-canon, and thus without the EU, Star Wars has no chance. End of the line. Star Trek penultimate wins.

It's superior fiction anyway. While not all THAT much better, it's still better than the crap that is Star Wars.

It's superior fiction anyway. While not all THAT much better, it's still better than the crap that is Star Wars.

With the exception of Deep Space Nine, the later seasons of the The Next Generation, and a few choice episodes of The Original Series most Star Trek is at best mediocre and more often than not almost unwatchable.

Star Trek Nemesis anyone?

Star Trek Nemesis anyone?
Episode I, anyone?

This is universe vs universe, not Empire vs Federation.
Granted I don't know much about Star Trek, but the Federation really has comparable technology to the others, with the exception of the Borg etc, right? When a SW ship can generate 100 million times the firepower than the Enterprise the ST universe is pretty much screwed. (the Borg may turn the tables though I suppose)

What's all this about Star Trek beating SW with numbers? Aren't there in the order of millions of Star Wars species vs. about 30,000 in Star Trek?

With the exception of Deep Space Nine, the later seasons of the The Next Generation, and a few choice episodes of The Original Series most Star Trek is at best mediocre and more often than not almost unwatchable.

Star Trek Nemesis anyone?
Star Trek is written better than Star Wars on the whole. I apologize for saying Wars is crap, when it's not...it's just at most B-quality. I wouldn't exactly call Star Trek A-quality though. More like B+. The key difference is that Star Trek tended--for the most part--to pay attention to science and keep things scientific. (For instance, at first in the original series lithum was used instead of dilithium until the writers realized they might contradict the known properties of lithium and changed it to something else so as to not contradict it.) Furthermore, unlike Wars, Trek is a cultural phenomenon and has inspired numerous people in various ventures. It's also made lots of little changes to society. Consider how cellphones flip open, for instance. Think they'd do that if it weren't for TOS communicators? That's just one example.

Wars, like Harry Potter, the Lord of the Rings, Final Fantasy VII, and others, is simply overhyped and is not as good as it's made out to be.

Also, remember: whatever you might have fun dreaming about at night, the EU is NOT canon and thus cannot be considered. I point to Canon Wars for why.

[U]
Star Trek has many more warships than the Star Wars universe has.


Really? The Federation controls a single quadrant. The Republic/Empire controls the whole galaxy.

The SW ships may be larger, but the sheer number of ST ships and their weapons make it obvious ST would win.

Two words: Death Star. And, mind you, the DS gun isn't a one-of-a-kind. The SSD mounts one of the guns that make up the DS main cannon array. 8 of that guns, with a single shot, can send a planet into space debris. (Bye bye Alderaan). I guess that a single shot of one of that guns is enough to blast any ST ship into smithereens.


I realize that the destroyer lost its shields first, but the shield generator was easily taken out in a single pass by a few fighters. The shield generator was an easy target atop the bridge. That is very different from ST where the various shield generators are placed like a grid on the duranium hull plates.


A design flaw of the ISD/SSD (and a totally plot-instrumental one)... a MC-80 Mon Calamari cruiser hasn't that flaw.


By the end of Voyager, Starfleet is able to obtain transphasic torpedoes thanks to Janeway's violation of the Temporal Directive. These torpedoes can pass through shields and hulls to destroy vessels in a single blow.

By the "Dark Empire" comics (yes, they're canon) there are World Devastators. Who cares about losing vessels? Or men, since you got accelerated cloning.


The Breen energy weapon isn't only unaffected by shields, but it takes them down along with every other electically powered system on the ship.

In SW5 the whole systems of an ISD are totally shut down by a single shot from a land-based ion cannon as it was closing in on rebel ships leaving Hoth. I guess that in battle an ISD has its shields up and running.


The many SW fighters would not be effective against the best Federation starships. I do grant they would be able to harm any vessel predating the Ambassador class ships.

Why? Remember that even old-fashioned Y-wings carry proton torpedoes... and I'm not quoting monsters like the TIE Defender.


Ships prior to the Ambassador class had phaser banks instead of arrays. These could only be fired in a single concentrated beam. The Ambassador class and later ships with phaser arrays can divide up the power for the phasers and simultaneously fire several beams at various targets.
If a Galaxy class were attacked by a dozen tie fighters, she could simply split the power from her phasers to simultaneously fire 12 beams with 1/12 the power of a concentrated beam at each target and kill it.

That is, if the target has no shields. And SW fighters are a lot more maneuverable than ST ships, and usually come in HUGE waves.


There is another thing ST ships can do, they can simply go to warp and engage their enemy while at warp speeds. ST ships have the ability to fight at warp speeds. SW ships can't so they would be sitting ducks as the ST ships make passes at them.

That is, if ST ships can target a non-warp maneuvering target with enough accuracy.


Many SW fans argue their ships are faster. This is simply not the case. The only onscreen reference to speed told us that the Millenium Falcon (fastest ship in SW) had a top speed of 1.5 c.
Perhaps the reason why the Falcon can quickly transverse the galaxy is that the SW galaxy is much smaller than the Milky Way. It's a definite possibility since galaxies definitely have a large variance when it comes to their sizes. Scientists have actually discovered real galaxies only 1/100 the size of the Milky Way.

That "top speed 1.5c" reference is a clear mistake by Lucas and it has been corrected in tons of canon books (RPG, encyclopedias, comics).
Anyway, SW ships can go hyperspace. Even most fighters. And you cannot intercept anything that is going in hyperspace, short of an Interdictor-class cruiser. Hence, an Interdictor's gravity well is enough to detour the course of any warp-driving craft.


Even at sub-light speed, ST ships are faster. SW ships have weak ion engines. Compare that to ST impulse drives. Even in TMP, the Enterprise achieved a speed of .5c under impulse alone. By TNG era they could go .75c under impulse.

I doubt that anywhere in canon material you can find direct reference to the sublight speed of SW ships. Anyway, I have a hint: in SW5, the Millennium Falcon travels in sublight from a system to another (from the Hoth system to the Bespin system), in a time that must be in the order of a month (at least local Millennium Falcon time) because of food supplies. Let's say that those two systems are really close (1 ly, and I'm pushing it because they are supposed to be in the Outer Rim). To travel 1 ly in a local time of about 1 month (so we can allow Luke's local time while training at Dagobah with Yoda quite longer) you must be going pretty fast... no I'm not doing the calculation right now, anyway it should be in the order of 0.9c .


Star Trek wins here once more. There is no way SW would be able to deal with transporters.

Are you sure that SW shields don't block transporters? Why doesn't the Federation use transporting shock troops on enemy ships as standard attack? Capturing a ships is usually better than destroying it, yet ST ships usually engage each other with any other kind of long-distance weapons.


Phasers have also been shown to be much more powerful than blasters. At type 16 setting, they can cause large explosions. If someone were to fire it a few meters in front of a Jedi, it would cause a large explosion while being out of the range of deflection by the lightsaber.
Aren't you forgetting personal armour?

There are also projectile weapons like the TR-116. That weapon can be fitted with a transporter to fire through bulkheads.

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Stealth
ST ships have cloak. Some newer cloaks allow vessels to pass through solid matter when cloaked. Vessels like the Scimitar and Chang's Bird of Prey can fire when cloaked.

Not all ST ships have cloak. And some SW ships have cloak, too. Again, canon material isn't the SW movies only.


Planet destruction
Yes the Death Star can easily kill planets. It isn't anything ST ships can't do. Any vessel can have a trilithium device placed into a photon torpedo or probe. that device can then be fired at a star. Not only is the star destroyed, but the shockwave destroys every planet in the system. The Defiant also showed us that 2 quantum torpedoes fired into an atmosphere can make a planet unlivable. Even a Danube class runabout can destroy an entire starsystem. The changeling who replaced Bashir attempted to do this.

I fail to remember any ST episode featuring the total annihilation of a whole planet by a single craft.
Also blasting a star away is something that a SW ship can do, in some of the post-Zahn-trilogy books.

Anyway, the main argument that makes me believe that SW wins against ST (as I stated some months ago) is this:
ST is science fiction.
SW is space opera.
ST has to keep things on a somewhat reasonable level, hence there are limits.
SW has to make things go on a totally fantastic level, hence limits are there only to be overtaken and shred to tiny, sorry bits.

I also believe I've proven I'm a nerd who watches way too many re-runs on Spike TV between classes.

Join the club... hooray for nerds!
NERD POWER!:D

The EU is not canon. As stated by Lucas himself, his Star Wars--the movies and the novelizations(I can never remembe why those are considered canon...I need to look that up again) alone--and the EU are two separate universes. You don't get much more definitive than that. The EU is nothing more than marketed silly fandom. I'm sure there's some good books in there, but like Star Trek novels, the EU is not canon. Period. Thusly your entire argument deflates.

Also, I'd like to know why so many Star Wars fans have problems with Lucas' vision. Why is it they get so uptight about what he chooses to do with Star Wars and declare some of it to be mistakes and/or bull? Lucas IS Star Wars. Without that neat man and his writing you wouldn't have a freaking fandom. His word is law with Star Wars and should be respected as such. Sheesh.

ST:
"Number one, we have to remember the prime directive"

SW:
"Continue the operation, you may fire when ready"

Bye bye Picard!

Granted I don't know much about Star Trek, but the Federation really has comparable technology to the others, with the exception of the Borg etc, right? When a SW ship can generate 100 million times the firepower than the Enterprise the ST universe is pretty much screwed. (the Borg may turn the tables though I suppose)

What's all this about Star Trek beating SW with numbers? Aren't there in the order of millions of Star Wars species vs. about 30,000 in Star Trek?
True, the SW universe has the edge in terms of numbers, however (And going with the OP, no Q or Force powers), Trek has some fantastical elements that, if we took the universe and had IT fight, SW wouldn't stand a chance.

How about using the Guardian of Forever to go back in time and stop certain people from inventing key SW technology? Or, again, the Q are not the only godlike race in the Trek universe that might suddenly get involved. Like I said, the Death Star is no good if all the controls are white hot and unable to be touched.

And so on and so forth.

It's NOT SW's fault, it's just that George Lucas tells tightly scripted stories that have arcs whereas Trek has 6 different series and 10 movies to play with.

True, the SW universe has the edge in terms of numbers, however (And going with the OP, no Q or Force powers), Trek has some fantastical elements that, if we took the universe and had IT fight, SW wouldn't stand a chance.

How about using the Guardian of Forever to go back in time and stop certain people from inventing key SW technology? Or, again, the Q are not the only godlike race in the Trek universe that might suddenly get involved. Like I said, the Death Star is no good if all the controls are white hot and unable to be touched.

And so on and so forth.

It's NOT SW's fault, it's just that George Lucas tells tightly scripted stories that have arcs whereas Trek has 6 different series and 10 movies to play with.
Well, godlike beings are kind of cheap, ditto for time travel. Hell, a society of cavemen who could time travel could probably destroy a Star Wars/Trek-style civilization...

Trek has loads of episodes, but Star Wars has only 6 movies: wouldn't it be fairer at least in this context to consider the SW books canon, then?

Well, godlike beings are kind of cheap, ditto for time travel. Hell, a society of cavemen who could time travel could probably destroy a Star Wars/Trek-style civilization...
Yell at the OP, I just work here.

Trek has loads of episodes, but Star Wars has only 6 movies: wouldn't it be fairer at least in this context to consider the SW books canon, then?
I'd say official canon only, otherwise we'll spend days arguing about it.

So, for SW, the 6 films, the movie novels, and radio dramas.
ST: Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9, Yoyager, and all 10 films.

On a personal aside I find the whole thing amusing as I happen to love both series and consider both good sci-fi.

Well, godlike beings are kind of cheap, ditto for time travel. Hell, a society of cavemen who could time travel could probably destroy a Star Wars/Trek-style civilization...

Trek has loads of episodes, but Star Wars has only 6 movies: wouldn't it be fairer at least in this context to consider the SW books canon, then?

No, it wouldn't be, because if you open up Star Wars books then you open up Trek books as well--to be, as you say, fair--and believe me, you don't want to open up that Pandora's Box. You'd see some stuff in there that would make you scream, and other stuff that would make Star Wars beg for mercy.

Star Trek has many more warships than the Star Wars universe has.

Let's see... more types of warships more likely. The Empire by itself has millions of worlds, while most of ST is based in two or three quadrants.

By the TNG/DS9 era, the Federation has about 30,000 starships in service. These range from the wimpy Oberths to the mighty Sovereign, Promethius, and Defiant class vessels.

See Empire Vs. Federation (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html) breakdown, which was pointed out earlier not to say that the Empire can beat the crap out of the Feds, but more likely a lot of the other races.

The Klingon Empire has even more. By the start of the Dominion War, they still have more vessels than the Federation. This is despite the fact they lost much of their fleet during the recent wars against the Federation and Cardassians.

May I also point out that, in a 'real' situation, the Klingons would hardly want to help the Feds against the Empire. See previous breakdown

The Romulan Star Empire has a smaller fleet size, but their D'deridex class warbirds are very deadly.

But how many D'deridex do they have?

The Cardassians had around 15,000 vessels by the time they signed their treaty with the Dominion. Much of their fleet was lost in the surprise attack by the Klingons.

The Cardassians are no longer a military threat.

The Dominion has a massive fleet. In the late stages of the war, they had over 30,000 vessels in the Alpha Quadrant alone. This is a large number, but this was a sheer minority of their total fleet. The vast majority of their ships were on the other side of the Bajoran Wormhole.

Despite all this, they lost because they didn't send their entire fleet through the wormhole.

There is also the Breen. Their fleet size has never been alluded to, but the SW ships wouldn't survive a hit from their energy weapon, which killed the Defiant.

Don't know enough about the Breen.

There are many other large factions in the ST universe such as the Gorn, Borg, Ferengi, Orion, and Xindi.

Ferengi would go to the side with the most cash, i.e.: the Empire and sell them a lot of information.

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The SW ships may be larger, but the sheer number of ST ships and their weapons make it obvious ST would win.

Lesse, a million worlds, vs. two or so quadrants.

All it took to kill a super-star destroyer was an A-Wing crashing into it. That's just simply a sad statement about their ships. Alright, the Odyssey was killed in a kamikaze run, but the Dominion vessel was much closer in size to the Odyssey.

I realize that the destroyer lost its shields first, but the shield generator was easily taken out in a single pass by a few fighters. The shield generator was an easy target atop the bridge. That is very different from ST where the various shield generators are placed like a grid on the duranium hull plates.

Might I point out that Admiral Ackbar of Home One ordered the entire rebel fleet to focus fire on the Super Star Destroyer first? and that the fighters didn't seem to be doing that good against any of the capitol ships?

By the end of Voyager, Starfleet is able to obtain transphasic torpedoes thanks to Janeway's violation of the Temporal Directive. These torpedoes can pass through shields and hulls to destroy vessels in a single blow.[/quote]

Those aren't proven against SW shields, as it is not known if the Empire and the Feds use the same type of shields. It's possible that the torpedoes could be unaffective against Empire tech. However, since we can't find a way to prove that, I suppose I'll agree. However, even if the Empire loses one ship against a torpedo, there are limitless numbers of them. The Empire can also very quickly build more.

This may also help: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/index.html

Other weapons like the Borg cutting ray are unaffected by shields. The Breen energy weapon isn't only unaffected by shields, but it takes them down along with every other electically powered system on the ship.

Name the episodes where this happens with the Borg. As for the Breen, I don't know enough about them.

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Fighters vs. Starships:

If a Galaxy class were attacked by a dozen tie fighters, she could simply split the power from her phasers to simultaneously fire 12 beams with 1/12 the power of a concentrated beam at each target and kill it.

Hmm.. well, in most situations, there would be a Star Destroyer with those Ties, as the things are short-range craft. Not only that, but in a few episodes it's been proven that the same phasers can hardly destroy an asteroid (dare me to post the link...). Although I agree the tie fighters wouldn't stand a chance (no shields)

There is another thing ST ships can do, they can simply go to warp and engage their enemy while at warp speeds. ST ships have the ability to fight at warp speeds. SW ships can't so they would be sitting ducks as the ST ships make passes at them.

In which case the SW ship will hyperdrive across the galaxy and destroy something else. Also, I believe the ST ships can't stay in warp forever. (like say, earth)

--------------------------------------------------

Many SW fans argue their ships are faster. This is simply not the case. The only onscreen reference to speed told us that the Millenium Falcon (fastest ship in SW) had a top speed of 1.5 c. Even the old NX class could run circles around that at 140.6c. There is also the fact that the Borg have Transwarp capabilities, which give them almost infinite speed.

Umm.. what? As far as hyperspace is concerned. Not only that, technical journals point out that an Acclamator cruiser is faster than the Enterprise-D. (see the previous SWvST link about direct comparison)

Perhaps the reason why the Falcon can quickly transverse the galaxy is that the SW galaxy is much smaller than the Milky Way. It's a definite possibility since galaxies definitely have a large variance when it comes to their sizes. Scientists have actually discovered real galaxies only 1/100 the size of the Milky Way.

Hyperspace, HYPERSPACE. Since there are no official comments about the size of the SW galaxy, that's not much of an argument.

Even at sub-light speed, ST ships are faster. SW ships have weak ion engines. Compare that to ST impulse drives. Even in TMP, the Enterprise achieved a speed of .5c under impulse alone. By TNG era they could go .75c under impulse.

Read this, please: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

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Infantry combat:

[quote]Phasers have also been shown to be much more powerful than blasters. At type 16 setting, they can cause large explosions. If someone were to fire it a few meters in front of a Jedi, it would cause a large explosion while being out of the range of deflection by the lightsaber.

Read this:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/MoO/Blasters.html
and this one
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/MoO/Lightsabres.html

ST ships have cloak. Some newer cloaks allow vessels to pass through solid matter when cloaked. Vessels like the Scimitar and Chang's Bird of Prey can fire when cloaked.

Not going to argue with that one...

----------------------------------------------------------

Planet destruction

Yes the Death Star can easily kill planets. It isn't anything ST ships can't do. Any vessel can have a trilithium device placed into a photon torpedo or probe. that device can then be fired at a star. Not only is the star destroyed, but the shockwave destroys every planet in the system. The Defiant also showed us that 2 quantum torpedoes fired into an atmosphere can make a planet unlivable. Even a Danube class runabout can destroy an entire starsystem. The changeling who replaced Bashir attempted to do this.

Even that, the Death Star blows up a planet completly, as there's nothing left but a debris field. What ST tech can do that?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I believe I've proven that ST is better than SW. I also believe I've proven I'm a nerd who watches way too many re-runs on Spike TV between classes.

You've proven nothing.

-----------------------

May I point out that ST-v-SW.net is run by someone who has been repeatedly pointed out as an idiot. RSA (Darkstar) has argued with the official licensee of ST (the one who says what's canon as far as the books go) when she said DIRECTLY that the books were not 100% canon.

A lot of this can be shown here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/

So, unless you happen to be RSA, don't bring up anything of his nonsense.

Speaking of which:

"None of the books are canon. That's 100% true."
Paula Block (head of Star Trek licensing at Paramount) to RSA.

"Let go of your rambling diatribes and face the truth."
David Mack (writer of the DS9 episodes "Starship Down" and "It's Only A Paper Moon") to RSA.

"The quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not."
Leland Chee, maintainer of Lucasfilm's Star Wars Holocron, to someone quoting RSA.

"All contradictions are dealt with case-by-case ... Does LucasFilm Ltd. itself actually have a Canon Policy? No."
Leland Chee, refuting RSA's notion that there is some absolute correct "Canon Policy" at Lucasfilm.

And read this one:
http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/Canon.html

There, having fun canon-wise yet?

Warhammer 40k.

i agree that on the whole ST would win if the two galaxies were put at war, but i do think you left out a large part from your OP in that you largely concentrated on alpa-quadrant civilisations. look at any galaxy map of the ST galaxy and you'll see that the Borg control a vast swathe of the galaxy in comparison to any Alpha-quadrant power. thus the Borg will have vastly more ships, and we know the whole deal with the Borg is to adapt to new technologies, races and strategies. it is for this reason that i say the SW galaxy would be whipped shitless by the Borg, let alone the combined forces of the rest of the ST galaxy.

war is not just about what units and guns you throw at each other, but about strategy, and i have no doubt the Borg would adapt to the Empire's military strategies faster and more effectively than other ST powers. couple that in with the fact that the Borg would only need to capture one Empire vessel/star destroyer and they'd figure out ways to adapt to the SW defenses and weapons in no time, as well as the fact that every casualty inflicted to the Empire is another drone to serve the borg, there would be no stopping them.

though in reality what i truly think would happen would be the Borg would fuck off out the way, let the SW and ST powers duke it out, and then pick off the severely crippled winner for an easy win ;)


(not to discount the other ST powers and the OP's other arguments, which i largely agree with, but this is such a critical thing imho that it really should be taken into account :))

Warhammer 40k.


Wuthering Heights > (Star Wars + Star Trek + Warhammer 40k) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=390531)

Geek vs Nerd Redux, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Anyway Bab 5 still pwns them both.

Halo will beat both. It has the capability to blast clear either or both galaxies of all sentient life, thereby negating any and all conflict.

End of thread.

In that case

what is more powerful Halo or a Death Star? :confused:

ST for one reason James Tiberius Kirk

As I usually do in such threads, I'm going to make a running bet the USS Voyager could defeat the entire Star Wars universe single-handedly by the power of plot devices.

First of all check out this link: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

You can see that, as far as technology is concerned, the Empire easily outclasses the Federation, and possibly many of the other races. Massive firepower, can move faster through hyperspace, and a million or so worlds.

Feel free to read most of the site until I have more time to make a detailed rebuttal and argue some points...
That site is bull as it clearly misstates the tech level of the Federation. The Voyager was able to destroy asteroids easily with a single torpedo.

This site is unbiased and provides real analysis.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html

Hehehehe...looks like we've got a Rabid Warsie versus a Darkstar supporter match heating up...this should be fun...usually I'd join in but I'm far too tired to debate effectively so I'll leave it to IDF...

Warhammer 40k.
You win!

Actually, you know which universe will beat any other? Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. They have the Infinite Improbability Drive, which makes the unlikeliest possible outcomes occur. They can therefore do basically anything. Plus, they never panic and always carry towels. :p

[U]

Really? The Federation controls a single quadrant. The Republic/Empire controls the whole galaxy.
The problem is this is galaxy vs. galaxy, not Federation vs. Empire. We're including everything here from the Federation to Species 8472




Two words: Death Star. And, mind you, the DS gun isn't a one-of-a-kind. The SSD mounts one of the guns that make up the DS main cannon array. 8 of that guns, with a single shot, can send a planet into space debris. (Bye bye Alderaan). I guess that a single shot of one of that guns is enough to blast any ST ship into smithereens.
Every Star Trek vessel can carry a trilithium torpedo, which can destroy an entire solar system. I don't think Star Wars weapons can trigger a supernova. A ST vessel just has to come in under cloak, deliver the trilithium and the entire system (including the Star Destroyers in it) is destroyed. The Dominion actually tried to do this to the Federation/Klingon Alliance fleet.




A design flaw of the ISD/SSD (and a totally plot-instrumental one)... a MC-80 Mon Calamari cruiser hasn't that flaw.Nevertheless, it is a design flaw that can be exploited by any vessel.




By the "Dark Empire" comics (yes, they're canon) there are World Devastators. Who cares about losing vessels? Or men, since you got accelerated cloning.
Ditto for the Dominion. All Vorta are cloned and the Jem'Hadar are artificially created. They are basically in infinite supply. They can man ships and fight with weapons or hand to hand.



In SW5 the whole systems of an ISD are totally shut down by a single shot from a land-based ion cannon as it was closing in on rebel ships leaving Hoth. I guess that in battle an ISD has its shields up and running.
That land based ion cannon was a very rare weapon. Every Breen warship we've seen mounts the energy weapon. The Breen ships with those weapons took out over a thousand ships.




Why? Remember that even old-fashioned Y-wings carry proton torpedoes... and I'm not quoting monsters like the TIE Defender.
Proton torpedoes are pretty weak. When Luke's missed and hit the unshielded death star, all it did was leave a scorch mark. It did less than a photon torpedo does against a fully shielded vessel. A photon torpedo is much more powerful than proton torpedoes. Photon torpedoes use anti-matter, which is the most explosive substance known to man.

There is also the fact that the ST phasers can blast the fighters from 250,000 km away. They can also outrun the fighters on impulse power. Doing this, they can keep the fight at distances within their phaser ranges and outside the ranges of the SW ships' weapons.



That is, if the target has no shields. And SW fighters are a lot more maneuverable than ST ships, and usually come in HUGE waves.
See above on how the SW fighters would never catch the ST ships. Ion engines are weak compared to impulse drives. Impulse engines can get ST ships to .75c.



That is, if ST ships can target a non-warp maneuvering target with enough accuracy.
ST ships have targeted non-warp targets with accuracy. It has been done in TOS.



That "top speed 1.5c" reference is a clear mistake by Lucas and it has been corrected in tons of canon books (RPG, encyclopedias, comics).
Anyway, SW ships can go hyperspace. Even most fighters. And you cannot intercept anything that is going in hyperspace, short of an Interdictor-class cruiser. Hence, an Interdictor's gravity well is enough to detour the course of any warp-driving craft.
They may not intercept an object at hyperspace, but they can find a target moving at sublight speed and attack it while in warp. The SW ships would be unable to return fire and hit the ST ship.



I doubt that anywhere in canon material you can find direct reference to the sublight speed of SW ships. Anyway, I have a hint: in SW5, the Millennium Falcon travels in sublight from a system to another (from the Hoth system to the Bespin system), in a time that must be in the order of a month (at least local Millennium Falcon time) because of food supplies. Let's say that those two systems are really close (1 ly, and I'm pushing it because they are supposed to be in the Outer Rim). To travel 1 ly in a local time of about 1 month (so we can allow Luke's local time while training at Dagobah with Yoda quite longer) you must be going pretty fast... no I'm not doing the calculation right now, anyway it should be in the order of 0.9c .

I'm basing the fact SW ships are slow at sublight speed based on the fact they have ion engines. Ion engines are something which NASA has actually recently developed. It's the fastest engine we have available, but its only early 21st century tech. It's much slower than the impulse drives of Star Trek.



Are you sure that SW shields don't block transporters? Why doesn't the Federation use transporting shock troops on enemy ships as standard attack? Capturing a ships is usually better than destroying it, yet ST ships usually engage each other with any other kind of long-distance weapons.

Shields block most transporters. I was talking more about ground battles here instead of ship to ship. Realize that while ST and SW focus on ships, the real wars are still fought on the ground. Some of the biggest battles of the Dominion War involved ground troops. We didn't see it, but battles were referenced where 500,000 Cardassians were slaughtered in a day by Klingons. (This led to Damar's rebellion). There was also the Siege of AR-558. Back to the shield point, by Nemesis, Starfleet had a transporter that could go through shields.



Aren't you forgetting personal armour?
That may stop a phaser up to setting 4. Setting 5 can go through personal shields. At settings 8-16, biological targets are vaporized.



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Not all ST ships have cloak. And some SW ships have cloak, too. Again, canon material isn't the SW movies only.
All Romulan, Klingon, and some Federation vessels have cloak. All Federation vessels are capable of cloaking. They only don't have the devices because of the Treaty of Algeron.



I fail to remember any ST episode featuring the total annihilation of a whole planet by a single craft.
Also blasting a star away is something that a SW ship can do, in some of the post-Zahn-trilogy books.
The Defiant destroyed an entire planetary atmosphere with 2 simple quantum torpedoes. The Genesis Device can be delivered by any vessel and would destroy everything on a planet in favor of its new atomic matrix. We saw probes carrying trilithium destroy an entire solar system. Let's face it, even a Danube class Runabout with a crew of 1 can destroy a solar system.






Join the club... hooray for nerds!
NERD POWER!:DI'm proudly in the club!

In that case

what is more powerful Halo or a Death Star? :confused:

Halo. The Death Star has to destroy planets one at a time, and there's only one of it at a time. Halo doesn't actually destroy planets but wipes them clear of life, and it does the whole galaxy at once. The Infinite Improbability Drive still beats both, however.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

All you need to know.

Proton torpedoes are pretty weak. When Luke's missed and hit the unshielded death star, all it did was leave a scorch mark. It did less than a photon torpedo does against a fully shielded vessel. A photon torpedo is much more powerful than proton torpedoes. Photon torpedoes use anti-matter, which is the most explosive substance known to man.
I'll bet you he's going to bring up the various heat-sink crap.

You know what? I'm going to employ Occam's Razor here: the simplest explanation WITH THE MOST EVIDENCE(an important part often forgotten by many people leading to a misuse of the principle) is the best and most probably correct. As such, the fanwank of the EU means absolutely bull. Again, Lucas himself said that it was a separate universe from his Star Wars, the canon Star Wars. Mike Wong and the rabid warsies and EU completionists are all completely wrong.

EDIT: Oh dear, I let myself speak anyway. Best shut up now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXeHyqlXhWY

Given that the ST and SW universes clearly work on different laws of physics, any comparison of technological capabilities is fundamentally impossible and frankly absurd. It's not as if either is remotely realistic.

Perhaps this will express my views more succinctly and clearly than my previous post. :)

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m209/gswelcome/DieEnterprise.jpg

i know i have not read the posts other then the first and i don't know if you are counting nonmovie content for info but...
when it comes to planet destroying content...
in the sw books there are the planet harvesters, and the sun crusher. the eye of the emperor would also be able to take out every single st ship in a single shot btw.
(ps, the sun crusher's armor would basically make all forms of weapons in st useless, just pointing this out)
(ps.ps. the vong from sw bring even more to the table. there armor is immune to all forms of energy, and they can minipulate gravity to a near infinite extent)

Who cares, Chuck Norris wins by roundhouse kicking the Universe out of existence....

But besides that, a droideka floating in space could destroy the entire Federation. No because it's programming orders it to, but because it is a fan of bad George Lucas dialogue and hates crappy special effects and Heisenberg compensators (the one who came up with that should be.... well... the bottom line is dying in pain).

Only if you count the extended universe as cannon, which I don't.

But if you did, it would be a huge f*cking gun.

I'm sorry, but it had to be said.

Star Trek is written better than Star Wars on the whole. I apologize for saying Wars is crap, when it's not...it's just at most B-quality. I wouldn't exactly call Star Trek A-quality though. More like B+. The key difference is that Star Trek tended--for the most part--to pay attention to science and keep things scientific. (For instance, at first in the original series lithum was used instead of dilithium until the writers realized they might contradict the known properties of lithium and changed it to something else so as to not contradict it.) Furthermore, unlike Wars, Trek is a cultural phenomenon and has inspired numerous people in various ventures. It's also made lots of little changes to society. Consider how cellphones flip open, for instance. Think they'd do that if it weren't for TOS communicators? That's just one example.

Wars, like Harry Potter, the Lord of the Rings, Final Fantasy VII, and others, is simply overhyped and is not as good as it's made out to be.

Also, remember: whatever you might have fun dreaming about at night, the EU is NOT canon and thus cannot be considered. I point to Canon Wars for why.

Woooaa Wooaaa Lord of the Rings overhyped? Have you read the sheer amount of stuff that Tolkien himself wrote?Lord of the Rings (and the whole fictional works related that were written by Tolkien only by Tolkien) makes up the best fictional story (indeed world) written.

Woooaa Wooaaa Lord of the Rings overhyped? Have you read the sheer amount of stuff that Tolkien himself wrote?Lord of the Rings (and the whole fictional works related that were written by Tolkien only by Tolkien) makes up the best fictional story (indeed world) written.

Tolkien's writing style is trite and overstated. He constantly describes every single last detail of every single event almost excrutiatingly. Sure, the world is pretty neat, but the books aren't THAT good.

But I was speaking mostly of the movies, which relied on special effects to wow people into not noticing how much of the plot was butchered left and right.

Star Trek is written better than Star Wars on the whole. I apologize for saying Wars is crap, when it's not...it's just at most B-quality. I wouldn't exactly call Star Trek A-quality though. More like B+. The key difference is that Star Trek tended--for the most part--to pay attention to science and keep things scientific. (For instance, at first in the original series lithum was used instead of dilithium until the writers realized they might contradict the known properties of lithium and changed it to something else so as to not contradict it.) Furthermore, unlike Wars, Trek is a cultural phenomenon and has inspired numerous people in various ventures. It's also made lots of little changes to society. Consider how cellphones flip open, for instance. Think they'd do that if it weren't for TOS communicators? That's just one example.

thats quite right.... i'd rather have some explaination, even if it is nonsense technobabble, rather than none at all or something totally ficticious (yet meant to be believable... Farscape, anyone?)

Tolkien's writing style is trite and overstated. He constantly describes every single last detail of every single event almost excrutiatingly. Sure, the world is pretty neat, but the books aren't THAT good.

But I was speaking mostly of the movies, which relied on special effects to wow people into not noticing how much of the plot was butchered left and right.

The movies sure but the books are wonderful. You get the feeling of an actually whole knew world with many many many different histories conflicts etc. And the trilogy tells an absolutely fascinating and envigorating tale this is why those books were voted the best in the past half century in many different polls.

The movies sure but the books are wonderful. You get the feeling of an actually whole knew world with many many many different histories conflicts etc. And the trilogy tells an absolutely fascinating and envigorating tale this is why those books were voted the best in the past half century in many different polls.

Again, I'm not saying they're horrible books...they're just not written in a way that keeps everyone's interest. I found it difficult to force myself to read through them all after most of the way through the first book because, despite the rich world, it just wasn't that interesting.

Some fucking balance...evil rules the galaxy while good goes and hides in the boondocks.

Think about it. Good had ruled for several centuries. Evil deserves a turn.


Also, let's not forget trek has Omega molucules. Boom chaka laka laka laka.

That site is bull as it clearly misstates the tech level of the Federation. The Voyager was able to destroy asteroids easily with a single torpedo.


Oh, right, If those numbers from the 'Five Minutes' link are wrong, point me to somewhere that has nothing to do with Mr. Wong or Mr. Anderson that gives 'official' numbers. Not only that, Darkstar has argued with the authority on what's canon or not on several occasions, mostly because they don't support his 'truth'. So, in this case, let's leave both Darkstar and Wong out of this and find our own 'sources' since we both consider them either 'biased' or 'crazy'

the Borg would fuck off out the way, let the SW and ST powers duke it out, and then pick off the severely crippled winner for an easy win ;)

Hmm.. The borg will problably not be the only ones doing such a thing.

(not to discount the other ST powers and the OP's other arguments, which i largely agree with, but this is such a critical thing imho that it really should be taken into account :))[/QUOTE]

The problem is this is galaxy vs. galaxy, not Federation vs. Empire. We're including everything here from the Federation to Species 8472

I'm sure we're still aware of that. However, the Federation can be considered an 'average' for the Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, and the Cardassians. Not only that, but during any fighting, there's a good chance any of them could switch sides to further their goals (the Feds aren't too popular)


Every Star Trek vessel can carry a trilithium torpedo, which can destroy an entire solar system. I don't think Star Wars weapons can trigger a supernova.

As far as I know, only one can cause a super-nova, the Sun Crusher. Not only that, but if there was any indication that said torpedo is around, any ships in the system can simply hyperspace away. However, how many innocents would be in the way? How far would any of the races go before too many things in either galaxy are destroyed?

There is also the fact that the ST phasers can blast the fighters from 250,000 km away.

Most SW fighters come with a starship, so said scenario is a tad impossible without one nearby.

Ion engines are weak compared to impulse drives. Impulse engines can get ST ships to .75c.

See official numbers, unless you have 'your own'. where are you getting them from?

The SW ships would be unable to return fire and hit the ST ship.

Again, the SW ships can simply run away to another part of the galaxy. Did you read any part of my post?


I'm basing the fact SW ships are slow at sublight speed based on the fact they have ion engines.

See official numbers, unless you can poof up some imaginary ones.

Back to the shield point, by Nemesis, Starfleet had a transporter that could go through shields.

SW could simply devise a device that block transporters entirely. It has been done already.

That may stop a phaser up to setting 4. Setting 5 can go through personal shields. At settings 8-16, biological targets are vaporized.

May I point out the machine gun-like tripod blaster? (or whatever it's called), and support vehicles? (which, btw, most ST races don't have)

----------------------------------------------------------


All Federation vessels are capable of cloaking. They only don't have the devices because of the Treaty of Algeron.

And if said treaty was broken, this would screw up the 'war effort' against the SW galaxy. Tensions are already pretty tight between the Alpha quadrant races. Not only that, but some people are able to see through the cloak (can see a slight outline, or possible exhaust) and there are ways to easily detect through a cloaking field.

even a Danube class Runabout with a crew of 1 can destroy a solar system.

Again, how far would they go before the galaxy goes missing? Also, what if SW attacked first?

though in reality what i truly think would happen would be the Borg would fuck off out the way, let the SW and ST powers duke it out, and then pick off the severely crippled winner for an easy win ;)[/SIZE]

Nah, the borg are all about assimilating as much as possible as fast as possible on their big search for perfection. The Borg would go fucking crazy for anything from the SW universe, just because it's different. They're all about diversity(Your biological and tecnological distinctiveness will be added to our own and all that). They'd side with the others in the ST universe initially, but only in the sense that they'd be laying the pwn on everything they encounter from the SW universe. Eventually they'd turn their attentions beck to the ST universe denizens and lay the pwn on them too. The borg are awesome like that.

Nah, the borg are all about assimilating as much as possible as fast as possible on their big search for perfection. The Borg would go fucking crazy for anything from the SW universe, just because it's different. They're all about diversity(Your biological and tecnological distinctiveness will be added to our own and all that). They'd side with the others in the ST universe initially, but only in the sense that they'd be laying the pwn on everything they encounter from the SW universe. Eventually they'd turn their attentions beck to the ST universe denizens and lay the pwn on them too. The borg are awesome like that.

"Yousa be assimilated. Resistance be futile. Yo biological and technological differences will be added to weesa."

Halo. The Death Star has to destroy planets one at a time, and there's only one of it at a time. Halo doesn't actually destroy planets but wipes them clear of life, and it does the whole galaxy at once. The Infinite Improbability Drive still beats both, however.

I just realized something. In Halo, the Flood are like the Borg, only entirely organic as opposed to cybernetic. What happens if those two fought each other? Say, release a Flood swarm in a Borg ship?

Alright ladies and gents, let’s settle this once and for all.

For canon: ST: I am taking Paramount/CBS at their word and noting that ONLY 5 out of the 6 series and 9 out of the (current) 10 movies are canon. This leaves out the animated series and Star Trek V.

SW: I am taking George Lucas at HIS word that his Star Wars and the EU Star Wars are separate universes (Ala Star Trek). This leaves ONLY the 6 movies (as much as I wish to disown Episode 1), the Clone Wars TV series, radio dramas, and the movie novels (Namely because they are based upon the actual scripts as written by Mr. Lucas).

Thread: The OP has stated no Force powers and no Q, otherwise the whole of the universe is good to go. For formatting reasons, ST will be on the left of any vs. This is alphabetical before you shout bias.

Let’s RUMBLE!

Ships
Unnamed vs Unnamed: Advantage - SW
Here SW has a much better track record of ships. They are larger, actually meant for fighting, and designed with the notion of space combat in mind. They also know that space HAS 3D movement, whereas ST, even now, tends to be stuck with the notion of sticking to one plane. Also, unnamed ST ships exist for one reason and one reason only, to get blown up. Unnamed SW ships actually tend to survive engagement with the enemy. One disadvantage that SW ships have is that they also tend to think they are space going ships-of-the-line and will try to trade broadsides with ST ships. Assuming they manage to cross the T, it would be devastating, if they don’t though...

Unnamed vs Named: Advantage - SW
While doubtful that the Millennium Falcon could actually destroy a Borg cube, it held its own at the Second Battle of Sector 001 (ST: First Contact). Undoubtedly Han would find someway to confuse any unnamed ST ship he was up again. Luke, in his tiny X-wing, would also have no problems given, again, that unnamed ST ships are made to just blow up.

Named vs Unnamed: Advantage - ST
This one is easy. For the Enterprise (any) as Commander Riker noted, “Fate protects fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise”. This would automatically spell the death of any unnamed SW ship. Simply put, someone on board Enterprise would come up with a trick OR space/time would warp and restore the ship, OR etc. For Voyager, same idea, only that Janeway would come up with some technobabble deus ex machina that would be completely unbelievable, but still win the day. For Defiant, this is harder as Defiant was designed to get trashed within an inch of its life before being saved. I’m willing to give SW almost taking out Defiant before the rest of the ST universe dog piles that poor unnamed ship.

Named vs Named: Tie
Obviously given the overriding law in both universes (i.e. the good guys will win) both ships will engage in combat and rough enough other up until it is discovered that Captain Kirk is Luke’s father’s brother’s uncle’s cousin’s former roommate, at which case both sides will stop fighting in joy of being reunited with long lost whatevers and go off to kick some ass of some threat that CAN be defeated.

Ships total: Advantage - SW

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Speed

ST vs SW Advantage - Storyline
In this case nominal advantage seems to be with SW, Hyperspace does seem to be faster than normal warp, however transwarp seems to be just as fast as Hyperspace (and we’re going universe to universe here), perhaps they are the same place (The special effects sure look the same). However, in this case obviously dramatic need will cause the ship in question to be faster. If you look at how quickly the Enterprise E was able to get to Earth from the neutral zone or Padame from 500 Republica to Mustafar... Whichever ship is being more dramatic at the time will have the speed advantage.

Speed: Tie

---------------------------------------------------------

Infantry combat:

Unnamed vs Unnamed: Advantage - ST (Maybe)
This depends upon who is fighting. If its Stormtroopers vs Redshirts/Klingons/Jem’Hadar, I am giving the edge to the Stormtroopers who suddenly will be able to shoot straight. However, given this is universe to universe (and Jedi are sitting this one out), I’m foreseeing Stormtroopers against the Borg. I seriously doubt that armor, which can get taken out by rocks, will stop the Borg nanoprobes. The troopers will quickly start losing men as the Borg quickly start gaining.

Unnamed vs Named: Advantage - SW
Please, Han, Luke, and the rest against a bunch of Redshirts? McCoy wouldn’t be able to say, “He’s dead, Jim!” fast enough! Against the Borg, obviously R2D2 would be able to plug into the Borg Uni-mind and shut them down.

Named vs Unnamed: Advantage - ST
It’s the hero factor. As soon as any hero comes on set, Stormtroopers suddenly cannot hit the broad side of a barn.

Named vs Named: Tie (Maybe ST)
If it’s anyone BUT Kirk vs SW, it’ll go like the named ships vs named ships fight. If it’s Kirk vs anyone from SW, it’s gotta be Kirk. Probably because the SW crew won’t be able to believe that they are getting taken out by someone with such a bad hairpiece.

Infantry combat: ST
----------------------------------------------------------

Stealth
ST vs SW: Advantage - ST
I’ll have to give ST this. All we have is one throwaway line from Empire that no ship that small has a cloaking device. Since we don’t know how the SW’s ones work and as ST’s ARE small enough for just about any ship to have one, gotta give this to ST.

Stealth: ST

----------------------------------------------------------

Planet destruction
ST vs SW: Advantage - MAD
If both sides start slinging around Death Stars, planet killers, and Genesis Devices, MAD happens and both sides lose.

Planet Destruction: Death

-----------------------------------------------------------
Animals

Cute:
ST vs SW: Advantage - ST
In terms of being overly cute, I think we can all agree that tribbles take the cake over the Ewoks. They bread faster too.

Destructive:
ST vs SW: Advantage - SW
SW just has far more big scary things that will eat you.

Animals: Tie
------------------------------------------------------------------
Fantastical:
ST vs SW: Advantage - ST
Unfortunately for SW, its main fantastical side has been told to chill on the bench during this fight. Without the Force, SW is sadly lacking in a head to head with ST, given how many gods, time travelers, higher beings, mirror universes, and unexplained phenomena (namely those damn sub-atomic particles) that ST routinely runs into each week that proceeds to violate the laws of reality. Given just how often the very nature of time is violated, SW would not be able to long survive.

Fantastical: ST
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Total:
ST = 3
SW = 1
Ties = 1
Death = 1

And there you have it; ST wins the head to head here. Or does it? Remember the first law of both universes is that the good guys always win, dramatically. So, honestly now, in a match up, the good guys from both sides would team up to go kick the asses of the ‘Threat’. It’s what always happens after all.

There now, all settled.

I just realized something. In Halo, the Flood are like the Borg, only entirely organic as opposed to cybernetic. What happens if those two fought each other? Say, release a Flood swarm in a Borg ship?
The borg assimilate the flood, the borg release cybernetically enhanced flood. Master Chief cries.

The borg assimilate the flood, the borg release cybernetically enhanced flood. Master Chief cries.

Well, he cries in the ten seconds before he's assimilated.

The borg assimilate the flood, the borg release cybernetically enhanced flood. Master Chief cries.

Wouldn't the flood assimilate the borg likewise, and then cybernetically assimilate the rest of the borg. But then at the same time the borg are assimilating the flood, ack this is madness...Awaits Sparta

Oh and MAC Cannon > Enterprise

<snip>

Wow. :eek: My applause to you. Here is Kowakian Monkey-Lizard for your efforts.

http://www.starwars.gen.tr/images/upload/Kowakian-Monkey-Lizard02.jpg

Even though SW didn't win. *sniff*

NERVUN, that has got to be one of the most amusing SWvST debate-things I've read. As much as I hate to, given all of that, I'd have to agree with you.

Although we can argue about everything else all day.

This debate has occurred many times on this site, but it's always a fun one to revisit. So let's continue with the great nerdy and petty debate.

The question is which universe wins if all factions in one universe were to fight all the factions in the other.

NOTE: The Force cannot be applied and neither can Q. Let's just face it, if the Q Continuum could be included, all that would happen is Q would snap his fingers to negate the SW universe and make George Lucas get a sex change.
If you were a dinosaur you would be a Dorkosaurus.

The borg assimilate the flood, the borg release cybernetically enhanced flood. Master Chief cries.

Wouldn't it be, Borg drone nanoprobes flood drone, flood drone infects Borg drone. Both sides end up exchanging places again and again ad infinitum?

Wow. :eek: My applause to you. Here is Kowakian Monkey-Lizard for your efforts.

http://www.starwars.gen.tr/images/upload/Kowakian-Monkey-Lizard02.jpg

Even though SW didn't win. *sniff*
Thank you, though I'll have to agree with 3P0, that damned thing can give you nightmares. ;)

Stealth
ST vs SW: Advantage - ST
I’ll have to give ST this. All we have is one throwaway line from Empire that no ship that small has a cloaking device. Since we don’t know how the SW’s ones work and as ST’s ARE small enough for just about any ship to have one, gotta give this to ST.

Stealth: ST


well... i do. (only what is in noncannon). when it comes to noncannon (but kinda reliable sorces) there are 2 types of cloaking,
1: visible- the cloaking devices that are on larger ships (the only ones that are mentioned to have this type are star destroyers) work by bending light around them.
2: electronic/radar/etc- there are several types, for the most part they work the same way that military stuff dose now, it defects/refracts/etc.
3: UBER SITH NONCANNON COAKING DEVICE OF DEATH: well... since the force is not usable here i did not mention this before. it works by using a force crystal to absorb all electronic/radiation/energy signals/signatures/pulses/etc around it and always works. again this is not usable in this discussion but i thought i should bring it up.
4: personal: both of these are from truly non cannon and overly non reliable-ish sources so... 1- kotor- they work in all sorts of ways and basically nothing will be able to see you and there is no way short of the force that will be able to find you
2:- this is from a guide on some of the gear in the sw universe that was meant for the table top game (basically DandD for starwars). there is a nonmobal field that can disrupt sound... that's basically it.

You guys are getting way too techincal. If the two were ever to fight, it would come down to one question which is more powerful The Force, or Technobabble.

The force, an energy field that encompasses all life

Technobabble, the way in which you make up words, and bs the effect.

You guys are getting way too techincal. If the two were ever to fight, it would come down to one question which is more powerful The Force, or Technobabble.

The force, an energy field that encompasses all life

Technobabble, the way in which you make up words, and bs the effect.
Sadly, the Force was told to go take a shower for the duration of this thread.

Sadly, the Force was told to go take a shower for the duration of this thread.

So that is what happened... :)

I Believe ST would win because of Three Reasons, and three reasons alone.

The Omega Particle. One Blast of this baby and no matter who you are, your just flat out stuck at basic impulse speeds.

The Dominion. Shapeshifters able to take on practicly any species form. Replace the right people, and since Force/Q don't apply....

And Finally,

The Borg. The Empire and rebels get one, maybe two hits tops. Then their all drones.

I Believe ST would win because of Three Reasons, and three reasons alone.

The Omega Particle. One Blast of this baby and no matter who you are, your just flat out stuck at basic impulse speeds.

The Dominion. Shapeshifters able to take on practicly any species form. Replace the right people, and since Force/Q don't apply....

And Finally,

The Borg. The Empire and rebels get one, maybe two hits tops. Then their all drones.

*Fires death star superlaser*
"Uh...sir?"
"What, Ensign?"
"They've adapted."
"Huh?"
"Word up bitches. Prepare to be fucking assimilated."
"Well, fuck."
"Hey Vader, does that ancient mythology have an afterlife?"
"I...hope...so"
"Oh, no. You ain't dying."


ON THE ENTERPRISE:
"Oh god, no..."
"Shit shit shit."
"The borg assimilated Mace Windu."
"This is not good."
"WE ARE GOING TO ASSIMILATE THESE MOTHERFUCKING SNAKES ON THIS MOTHERFUCKING STARSHIP!"

I point out that planet destruction is well within the power of even ordinary star trek ships. For example, the Voyager episode with the Omega Molecule Janeway designs a warhead for the purpose of destroying the Omega Molecules. Ensign Kim asks "What are we trying to do, destroy a planet?"

Don't forget the fact that drilling phasers can easily obliterate a civilization by destabilizing the mantle.

the borg win

*Fires death star superlaser*
"Uh...sir?"
"What, Ensign?"
"They've adapted."
"Huh?"
"Word up bitches. Prepare to be fucking assimilated."
"Well, fuck."
"Hey Vader, does that ancient mythology have an afterlife?"
"I...hope...so"
"Oh, no. You ain't dying."


ON THE ENTERPRISE:
"Oh god, no..."
"Shit shit shit."
"The borg assimilated Mace Windu."
"This is not good."
"WE ARE GOING TO ASSIMILATE THESE MOTHERFUCKING SNAKES ON THIS MOTHERFUCKING STARSHIP!"
You win the thread.
*Hands over a taiyaki*

I point out that planet destruction is well within the power of even ordinary star trek ships. For example, the Voyager episode with the Omega Molecule Janeway designs a warhead for the purpose of destroying the Omega Molecules. Ensign Kim asks "What are we trying to do, destroy a planet?"

Don't forget the fact that drilling phasers can easily obliterate a civilization by destabilizing the mantle.

Yeah, I thought about that, but I didn't want to go down the whole Planet destroying path, and so I went with the Borg instead. Seemed more Logical to me, what with that whole adapt to practicly anything bit.

So that is what happened... :)
Well, if it helps, the Q were told to go with it...

Well, if it helps, the Q were told to go with it...
It had to be done because Q would just snap his fingers and everything in the SW galaxy would cease to exist.

It had to be done because Q would just snap his fingers and everything in the SW galaxy would cease to exist.

To be fair, you have to remove all instances of god type beings/races/devices and time travellers. They all count as deus ex machina.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

All you need to know.

I see this posted so often...I feel the need to expose it as BS.

Let's do this step by step...

From your link...

Of all the voluminous Star Wars and Star Trek publications out there, only one for each series gives meaningful specifications in real-world units: Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections (SW2ICS) and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual (TNG TM).

Next...

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Generation-Technical-Manual/dp/0671704273/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-9667061-4894315?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173762663&sr=1-1

The Star Trek: The Next Generation® Technical Manual, written by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda, the technical advisors to Star Trek: The Next Generation

Anyone who knows anything about ST knows the contributions Sternbach and Okuda have made to TNG, DS9 and VOY.

Next...

http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Cross-sections-Star-Wars-Episode/dp/0789485745/ref=sr_1_1/104-9667061-4894315?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173762011&sr=1-1

Illustrated by DK's acclaimed cross-section artists, Hans Jenssen and Richard Chasemore, Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections is written by new author, Dr. Curtis Saxton, who has a Ph.D. in theoretical astrophysics and well-known to Star Wars fans through his high-profile website

ORLY?

Next...

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/

*looks around*

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/faq.html

1.2.6 Is this site related to Lucasfilm or any of its licensees?

No. This web site is a private hobby, and is unaffected by the author's contributions to the official literature.

1.2.7 Is this site related to official publications by the same author?

No. The website and the books are kept deliberately separate and have different methodologies and motivations. This site is purely empirical; it relies entirely upon the full bredth of the published canon and expanded universe literature. It does not present new inventions. Everything in this site is a revelation based on extant evidence. Officially published books require and allow creativity, whereas this website is exclusively restricted to analysis and review.

So...the guy who came up with the SW numbers for the "Five-minutes" link explicitly states that those numbers were pulled out of his ass.

Meanwhile, the ST numbers come from two men who have worked on three TV series for over a decade.

So yeah...

It had to be done because Q would just snap his fingers and everything in the SW galaxy would cease to exist.

Actually, there are several beings that are more powerful then the Q continuim. Q hung out with them when he was a kid. Then they betrayed him and it took three members of the Q continium and several hundred years to take out the leader.

Actually, there are several beings that are more powerful then the Q continuim. Q hung out with them when he was a kid. Then they betrayed him and it took three members of the Q continium and several hundred years to take out the leader.

I never knew that. Whose more powerful than Q?

I never knew that. Whose more powerful than Q?

THIS (http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/thumb/f/f8/Swedishchef2.JPG/300px-Swedishchef2.JPG) guy.

:p

I weep for the lives here that will never know the loving touch of a woman. :p

*Fires death star superlaser*
"They've adapted."

"WE ARE GOING TO ASSIMILATE THESE MOTHERFUCKING SNAKES ON THIS MOTHERFUCKING STARSHIP!"

Wouldn't it be hard to adapt to a superlaser that could destroy planets? I mean, one shot and it explodes o.O how the hell can you adapt if you can't survive the first shot?

*shrugs* Hell, that was hilarious though xD.

Wouldn't it be hard to adapt to a superlaser that could destroy planets? I mean, one shot and it explodes o.O how the hell can you adapt if you can't survive the first shot?

*shrugs* Hell, that was hilarious though xD.

It would hit one or two cubes, then the other cubes would adapt to it.

I weep for the lives here that will never know the loving touch of a woman. :p
Don't look at me, I'm married and my wife and I are expecting... ;)

It would hit one or two cubes, then the other cubes would adapt to it.

I suppose, something probably still has to go through the Collective before the Cube is destroyed completly. Hell, if that would happen, I wonder what the Empire would be doing? Probably panicking : P.

The idea of Jedi Borg is disturbing...

I suppose, something probably still has to go through the Collective before the Cube is destroyed completly. Hell, if that would happen, I wonder what the Empire would be doing? Probably panicking : P.


Borg shields have proven to be utterly useless against physical objects. Sooo....Suicide SDs packed full of explosives.


The idea of Jedi Borg is disturbing...

Not really. Jedi rely on a number of things to get the job done. Namely, lots of agility and force powers. Being cybernetic poses no problems to force use as Vader demonstrated, but since the Borg have very clunky movement, he'd be useless with a saber.

And since force use isn't anything like tactics, technology or the usual stuff that the Borg assimilate, Jedi borg would be indistinguishable from the usual borg.

I suppose, something probably still has to go through the Collective before the Cube is destroyed completly. Hell, if that would happen, I wonder what the Empire would be doing? Probably panicking : P.

Since the Borg are connected to the collective via subspace, yeah. It's FTL communications, so they WOULD get the data and adapt.

Star trek is good because you can see the charactors develope in the episodes so you know what apst experiances theve had when you see them in the films!

Star Wars is made up as Georgey Porgey writes
absoloote PISH

Since the Borg are connected to the collective via subspace, yeah. It's FTL communications, so they WOULD get the data and adapt.

I think it's got to last long enough for the Borg to actually send data before it's vaporized. I mean, if the cube explodes violently the moment it's hit by the beam, I don't think it can send any sort of meaningful data other than "Large energy spike detected on hostile vesssel"

Anyway Bab 5 still pwns them both.

Bab 5 sucks. As explained in "Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning".

Nerdiness is quite high 'round here...

I think it's got to last long enough for the Borg to actually send data before it's vaporized. I mean, if the cube explodes violently the moment it's hit by the beam, I don't think it can send any sort of meaningful data other than "Large energy spike detected on hostile vesssel"
That seems to be enough. Phasers kill you in an instant, but the Borg are able to adapt to them after two or three drones get shot.

First we leave crackpot civilisations out of the picture: no Borg, 8472, Yuuzhan Vong, Rakatan Infinite Empire.

Ship versus ship: StarTrek gets totally owned

Face it, we have no idea how SW shields hold up against phasers, just as we have no idea how ST shields hold up against turbolasers. So, we'll have to make do with raw firepower, numbers and tactics.

Numbers (and production rate): big win for SW. Thousands of warships are in use and more can be created very fast. Just notice how fast the Republic stardestroyers were put into action after the beginning of the war.

Firepower: Another win for Starwars. I'm not going to nitpick about how a plotdevice can turn any ST ship into doomsday device. I'am talking about your average battleship. Just in the way the term "charactershield" is banned on most anime- (Gundam- (by the way, the Gundam universes would kick the crap out of both of them, but that's a story for another day)) forums, it is not very appropriate here. So no lucky technobabble escapes for Voyager here.
I know we are not talking (well, most of us) about EU, but a lone Sith Destroyer from the Old Republic was able to perform Operation Base Delta Zero (total orbital bombardment) 5000 years before SW, so I don't think an Imperator class woudl have any trouble with that.
But besides that, Turbo lasers and their like are just far more powerful than phasers.
*reminisces about battle of Coruscant where hangar mounted SPHA-T shoots a 800 meter Techno Union cruiser cleanly in two.* I have seldom seen phasers do real damage. Maybe only in crackpot New Enterprise... Mostly a phaserhit just causes sparks flying around on consoles on the bridge (how's that for bad shipdesign, huh?).
Stardestroyer captain remarking on phaser damage:
"Look! We have a burnmark on our plating, contact Coruscant and schedule immediate repainting. The Emperor will not be pleased! Oh, and help me out of these sparking wires, they are frightfully annoying."

Tactics: All very fun when ST attacks from subspace, but as stated before SW just jumps into hyperspace and lays waste to the other side of the galaxy. Thereby to impress the SW speed advantage: Yes, some ST ships are sometimes very fast (plothole!), but SW is fast ALL THE TIME. They have had hyperspace experience since the Infinite Empire (25000 years before SW) and usually fly from one end of the galaxy to the other in a matter of days. ST takes years. Besides, what good will jumping one ship (say, Enterprise D) into a cloud of Stardestroyers do?
Cloaking: same point, hiding will only prolong the inevitable.
ST crew is well trained, sure. And they have very capable captains, I have no doubt about that. But don't think Imperial or Republic crews are all slackers.
And what about fighters? ST virtually has none. SW has hordes. TIE's probable won't be much good unless they score a lucky hit. But what about TIE Interceptors, ARC 170s, V wings, X wings, Y wings, B wings, A wings, Vulture droids, Droid Tri-fighters (Buzz droids?) Do not underestimate the power of fast fighters against big slow ships!

Man to man: about the same result, maybe geurilla would be the best option for ST

Voyager elite force ringing in my ears for some obsure reason... Never mind.
Yes, stromtroopers suck bigtime, even when they can shoot straight. But what about Clone troopers, Alpha Batch Commandos, ARC Troopers, NULL ARCs? (no, these are all not EU) They shoot straight, kill Jedi and generally kick ass. And what about battle droids. Yes, the regular kind sucks, but SBDs and Droidekas do not however. And artillery: MMT, AAT, ATTE, ATAT, ATST, STAP, SPHA-T, SPH-X. Starwars is just more into battle and has a complete army, where ST, regrettably, leaves gigantic holes.

Another question: how can a Borg cube adapt to 5*10^23 Joules of energy (Deathstar) coming straight at it? In the same way a Borg drone adapts to a couple of grammes of lead entering its cranial cavity? Riiiiight.....

In other words, what difference will any of the crackpot civilisations make? Borg and 8472 will just have some fun with both eachother and Yuuzhan Vong and then all go down the drain in a worthy way... (think Mandalorians here)

I thought it was pretty much a given that Star Wars will pwn any non-ship battle, at least. (apart from Borg assimilationness) I mean, does Star Trek even have anything vaguely resembling an armoured combat vehicle? SW has a vast array of infantry weaponry and combat droids but ST pretty much has phasers, right?

That seems to be enough. Phasers kill you in an instant, but the Borg are able to adapt to them after two or three drones get shot.

Maybe so, but phasers don't appear to do any physical damage to the cybernetic parts unless directly hit. So it's possible that Borg drones have some sort of gadget that analyzes the beam and transmits that data after its dead.

But as with before, the Borg are utterly defenseless against physical objects. Thereby, ships with mass drivers and other assorted weaponry would be highly effective against them.

As it is, I bet a good old German potato masher would do wonders against Borg drones.

Or flamethrowers.

I thought it was pretty much a given that Star Wars will pwn any non-ship battle, at least. (apart from Borg assimilationness) I mean, does Star Trek even have anything vaguely resembling an armoured combat vehicle? SW has a vast array of infantry weaponry and combat droids but ST pretty much has phasers, right?

Transport yourself a couple of changelings into the Imperial logistics train and watch the mayhem ensue! :D

Maybe so, but phasers don't appear to do any physical damage to the cybernetic parts unless directly hit. So it's possible that Borg drones have some sort of gadget that analyzes the beam and transmits that data after its dead.

But as with before, the Borg are utterly defenseless against physical objects. Thereby, ships with mass drivers and other assorted weaponry would be highly effective against them.

As it is, I bet a good old German potato masher would do wonders against Borg drones.

Or flamethrowers.
The drones are prone to forget about projectiles, but I must be forgetting where ships have been destroyed that way.

Transport yourself a couple of changelings into the Imperial logistics train and watch the mayhem ensue! :D
Star Wars has changelings too, y'know.

OP: Add a poll.

hmmm star wars, star trek. star trek has those numbers, cool weps an a million races. its shows are mainly based on their ships and weaponry onboard, therefore it is only fair to say that yes, e know a heck of alot about their weps and ships...

star wars focuses more on the jedi knights. it is about thejedi knights, the reincarnation of the force and the way of life. its lie saying: "ok we are going to see who wins in a fight, superman or spiderman. only spiderman isnt allowed to have his spidey sense and web ability cus well... thats unfair. and superman needs to drop the man of steel invincibility act. both are left with...well spidey is left with his strength agility and wit. superman is left with errr.... his fancy tights and slugish punches.


jedis are the essence of of the whole show. Q, although a major player, cam in at the end of it all. besides do we even know the proportions of the fleets and crafts?? do we know about any weaponry that was similar? ok they both had lasers and shields. were they the same though? did they operate on the same plane of physics? heck coud tehy even phase eachotehr with their weapons??

the way i see it star wars. all the way because yes you would have to include the jedi. no Yoda, Luke or any of his offspring which were destined o be THE greatest jedis in the universe could possible use the force to destroy anything bigger than an xwing. i mean if you look at the matrix for example.... i reckon Neo destroyed more hands on than all the jedis could together.

You're all wrong, ST and SW Universe are in the Matrix, and all that has to happen is that The Architect would have to erase the codes that make up both Universe and that would be the end of it!

Matrix FTW.

If the Matrix can put me in Star Wars instead of this existence, plug me in.

Star Trek. Ok, we don't have Q, but if the Organians are there... well, every control on any SW ship cannot be touched.


The Organians would just make the Captains fight to the death, winner takes all. :D

I'm fairly certain that my post in the last thread was ignored. The Yuuzhan Vong would walk all over the Star Trek types. They wouldn't even know what hit them.



They might win the first few battles, but not the war. The Federation has proven it's ability to adapt to new enemies. Beyond that the Yuuzhan Vong could find themselves facing the entire Alpha Quadrant. I don't think the Klingons would be to worried about them. Some of the things I've seen Worf fight looked much worse then the Vong.

First of all check out this link: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

You can see that, as far as technology is concerned, the Empire easily outclasses the Federation, and possibly many of the other races. Massive firepower, can move faster through hyperspace, and a million or so worlds.

Feel free to read most of the site until I have more time to make a detailed rebuttal and argue some points...


Interesting ... Is this SW Cannon?

Heh. According to one of the books, Q caused the extinction of the dinosaurs by flinging an asteroid at 0 that missed.

Of course, Star Wars has the Sun Crusher, the Galaxy Gun, and the Death Star.


The Galaxy Gun would be the one that would be the most dangerous, but it could be defeated, once the Federation found it. However if you equipped it with the ST Phase Cloak, it would be nearly invincible.

Olmedreca;12418336']Babylon 5 is the best :D :gundge:

I disagree ...

Halo will beat both. It has the capability to blast clear either or both galaxies of all sentient life, thereby negating any and all conflict.

End of thread.


Halo can't beat the Phase Cloaking device, how do you destroy an enemy that is invisible AND intangable?

You're all wrong, ST and SW Universe are in the Matrix, and all that has to happen is that The Architect would have to erase the codes that make up both Universe and that would be the end of it!

Matrix FTW.

Data could take out the the Architect and rewrite the codes ... :D

The Organians would just make the Captains fight to the death, winner takes all. :D
Er, wrong god-like-beings. You're thinking of the Metrons.

No, the winnah is Hactar and his Ultimate Weapon.

ST:
"Number one, we have to remember the prime directive"

SW:
"Continue the operation, you may fire when ready"

Bye bye Picard!


The Prime Directive isn't meant for battle situations, only first contact with people who's technology doesn't include space travel. So dream on ...

Kormanthor,
you have full right to disagree with me, but you do not have right to misquote me. I didn't use that ugly "gun smiley" in my post and I see no reason why you should quote me like I had used that smiley.

Every Star Trek vessel can carry a trilithium torpedo, which can destroy an entire solar system. I don't think Star Wars weapons can trigger a supernova. A ST vessel just has to come in under cloak, deliver the trilithium and the entire system (including the Star Destroyers in it) is destroyed. The Dominion actually tried to do this to the Federation/Klingon Alliance fleet.


...

That land based ion cannon was a very rare weapon. Every Breen warship we've seen mounts the energy weapon. The Breen ships with those weapons took out over a thousand ships.




Well, well. I should note that destroying entire system does not count as winning the war. I also will note that Ion cannons are quite common in SW and would quickly deal with ST fleets.

But let's go back to basic tactics. In Galaxy vs. Galaxy war, Star Wars ships are by far more mobile (as they easily cross the galaxy in a few days while it will take months or even years for ST) than ST ships which is decisive advantage.
While ST fleets would be travelling till the Outer Rim worlds, SW fleets could lay waste on ST main planets and return to engage in battles. In the beginning of battles SW would have already won.
In fleet battles the winner is obscure (due to different physics used), but numbers (fire power and ship numbers) are on the side of SW. Actually even that is not that significant. With such slow FTL speeds if StarTrek ships destroys ship building facility at one side of the galaxy, then while they are crossing the galaxy, the StarWars guys would have their shipyard rebuilt. On other hand there would be no relax for ST civilizations as in case of ultimate war the planets would be slaughtered by StarDestroyers and supply routes cut by Xwing squadrons.


And then there are of course tacticians that may decide battles. We may speculate, but if SW has Grandadmiral Trawn, than even the Borg is just a short-term problem.

It's NOT SW's fault, it's just that George Lucas tells tightly scripted stories that have arcs whereas Trek has 6 different series and 10 movies to play with.

Here's a crucial point in this thread. Trek has accumulated a vast host of species, technologies and whatnots over the time it's been on, while SW, as a double triololgy has far less to draw upon, canon-wise. This discussion will be loop-sided as long as the Expanded Universe is ignored. While it hasn't been canonized, everything published under the Star Wars licence is sanctioned and approved.

IMO, the EU gives a broader perspective of the potential of the SW-technology, as well as the strategical potential of the Republic/Empire/New Republic.

If I were to enter this discussion, I would first ask which eras we are comparing, since this will influence my position greatly.

I'm not a Trekkie, so I'll just list some of the SW factors I believe will influence a conflict between the two.

Republic
Vast numbers of Jedi, with Battle Meditation, Farseeing and personal mind-affecting and combat enhancing powers.

A host of worlds, with extreme numbers of ships. This is both a pro and a con, since the Republic was hampered by political dissent. However, it has proven itself capable of uniting against a common threat before. (Sith Wars)

Empire
An enormous and effective fleet. It's based on the Star Destroyers, each having it's own detachment of support vessels and troops. Thus any number of vessels can easily be combined into a larger fleet.

Question: Will the Interdictor-class influence the ST-vessels' ability to enter Warpdrive?

The availability of highly trained marines (Stormtroopers), plus an enormous standing army (Imperial Army).

The Empire's doctrine is a Key Point Aquisiton/Scorched Earth-strategy. They will strike at key planets/bases, and has proven it's willingness to wipe out an entire planet (Ep IV)

The Dark Side. Key ST-personnel would be targeted, and the corruptive power of the Dark Side would probably lead several to betray their fellow Trekkies.

Numbers. At it's height, the Empire controls an entire galaxy. The resource and man power capacity is enormous.

Internal dissent. The growing Rebel Alliance would probably ally itself with the Federation.

New Republic
Superior ships, and a logistical- and command structure based on the Empire. Many NR task forces are formed around the Stardestroyer platform.

A growing number of Jedi.

The number of conflicting factions at this time could prove a problem for the NR's ability to commit fully to a war with the Federation.

Olmedreca;12422729']Kormanthor,
you have full right to disagree with me, but you do not have right to misquote me. I didn't use that ugly "gun smiley" in my post and I see no reason why you should quote me like I had used that smiley.


Because it added a little something ... feel free to use whatever smiley you wish on me.

The drones are prone to forget about projectiles, but I must be forgetting where ships have been destroyed that way.

It's a logical assumption that due to Borg tendencies to keep things uniform that their ship shields would be simply upscaled versions of their personnel shields.

Besides, if the Federation was so stupid as to not keep some sort of projectile weaponry for anti-Borg use despite their proven capacity, I doubt they would have upscaled it to affect ship level weapons tech.

Well Capten Kurk = pwn nd he says "LOl I GR8" nd all Vadah cn do is go "OH NOES" nd dy.

Seriously, why bother with this AGAIN???

It's a matter of personal taste, and I prefer Wars. Trek is cool as well though.

All pointless deebate aside, I suddenly feel the urge to see Chewbacca fight Worf.

Because it added a little something ... feel free to use whatever smiley you wish on me.

I do not want you to add anything to that what I wrote then you quote me, no matter if you think that it would add something or not. You may put as many gun smileys at your own posts as you want, if you really think they add something, but don't add them to my posts then you quote me. Oh, and of course I fully realize, that it was a cheap attempt to classify me as some kind of "gun-smiley noob".

Star Wars has changelings too, y'know.

Can they turn into birds, boulders, and even the surface of a table, or are they only able to mimic other humanoid lifeforms?

Interesting ... Is this SW Cannon?

Check post #101 in this thread...I already pointed out that that link is utter crap.

I Believe ST would win because of Three Reasons, and three reasons alone.

The Omega Particle. One Blast of this baby and no matter who you are, your just flat out stuck at basic impulse speeds.

The Dominion. Shapeshifters able to take on practicly any species form. Replace the right people, and since Force/Q don't apply....

And Finally,

The Borg. The Empire and rebels get one, maybe two hits tops. Then their all drones.

The Omega Particle is so rare and unstable I fail to see what it could do other than destroy the Trek side in the attempt to harness the power.

Star Wars has shapeshifters as well.

If we are using any species or technology than we can bring up the obvious point of the Death Star. And any argument that the Borg could actually adapt to the power of a weapon that can destroy an entire planet is ludicrous to me.

The Omega Particle is so rare and unstable I fail to see what it could do other than destroy the Trek side in the attempt to harness the power.

Star Wars has shapeshifters as well.

If we are using any species or technology than we can bring up the obvious point of the Death Star. And any argument that the Borg could actually adapt to the power of a weapon that can destroy an entire planet is ludicrous to me.

See. that's just because the writers only present things from Starfleets point of View. Its not my fault Starfleet is comprised of Cowards too afraid to push the envelope. The Borg had the right idea, even if it did cost alot of drones their lives. so what? its just life. Eventually they'll figure out how to stabilise it and then they can actually harness its power.

Not once in any of the movies did I ever see a shapeshifter. Not that it matters, the point still stands, only now for both sides.

Lasers and Shields aside, Transport over a few hundred Drones, and it won't matter. Since Sw doesn't have Teleporters like ST does, and The Borg have very good sensors, they would be able to find the Control room (Rooms) and a few assimilations later, no more Death star superlaser crew. Since Borg don't need rooms, beds or anything else like that, just regneration chambers that don't take up that much room, one Cube could easily take on the Death star and win, provided the Borg were intelligent enough to stay on the side not facing the Superlaser. And even if the Drones couldn't make it inside the Control Rooms, The Nanites could. Admittedly it would take quite awhile for nanites to spread throughout the entire Star, it would still be fast enough to take over the contrlling systems. There's more than one way for the Borg to defeat the empire, I just mentioned the Shields because its the first thing that springs to mind.

And even still, after a couple of SW crew members got assimilated, the Borg would know all they needed to know to disable the Superlaser.

Lasers and Shields aside, Transport over a few hundred Drones, and it won't matter. Since Sw doesn't have Teleporters like ST does, and The Borg have very good sensors, they would be able to find the Control room (Rooms) and a few assimilations later, no more Death star superlaser crew. Since Borg don't need rooms, beds or anything else like that, just regneration chambers that don't take up that much room, one Cube could easily take on the Death star and win, provided the Borg were intelligent enough to stay on the side not facing the Superlaser. And even if the Drones couldn't make it inside the Control Rooms, The Nanites could. Admittedly it would take quite awhile for nanites to spread throughout the entire Star, it would still be fast enough to take over the contrlling systems. There's more than one way for the Borg to defeat the empire, I just mentioned the Shields because its the first thing that springs to mind.

And even still, after a couple of SW crew members got assimilated, the Borg would know all they needed to know to disable the Superlaser.

I would question on how the ST tactics would work in a universe where the shields, weapons, engines, etc., are all multiple times as powerful as anything ST has. And even if the Borg did get drones over, the crew of the Death Star has something around a million people on it. It would take more than a single Cube to take the entire crew out. If their blasters and other weapons no longer worked they could swamp them with numbers and use blunt objects on them. Not that I'm sure their assimilation needle (I don't know if it has an official name) can break through stormtrooper armor that easily anyway.

Olmedreca;12422926']I do not want you to add anything to that what I wrote then you quote me, no matter if you think that it would add something or not. You may put as many gun smileys at your own posts as you want, if you really think they add something, but don't add them to my posts then you quote me. Oh, and of course I fully realize, that it was a cheap attempt to classify me as some kind of "gun-smiley noob".


There isn't a gun in the gundge smiley, so I don't see how it could possibly make you a "gun-smiley noob".

So...the guy who came up with the SW numbers for the "Five-minutes" link explicitly states that those numbers were pulled out of his ass.

Meanwhile, the ST numbers come from two men who have worked on three TV series for over a decade.

Okay, you win on that one. Although Han Solo was able to get to Bespin without hyperspace pretty quickly, although time isn't mentioned or the distance involved.

As for the Borg, yeah I believe that the Empire wouldn't care too much if they were missing a handful of Star Destroyers. Not only that, I believe there were some races in Voyager (or was it DS9?) that could block transporting or sensors without having the technology themselves. So, if they knew how, the Empire could tinker with the Interdictor technology and block transporting, and possibly Warp (if that was possible anyway)

Okay, you win on that one. Although Han Solo was able to get to Bespin without hyperspace pretty quickly, although time isn't mentioned or the distance involved.

As for the Borg, yeah I believe that the Empire wouldn't care too much if they were missing a handful of Star Destroyers. Not only that, I believe there were some races in Voyager (or was it DS9?) that could block transporting or sensors without having the technology themselves. So, if they knew how, the Empire could tinker with the Interdictor technology and block transporting, and possibly Warp (if that was possible anyway)


They " might " block the transporter if they had a good enough understanding of the way transporters work. But I don't believe they could block warp drive.

Well Capten Kurk = pwn nd he says "LOl I GR8" nd all Vadah cn do is go "OH NOES" nd dy.

Seriously, why bother with this AGAIN???

It's a matter of personal taste, and I prefer Wars. Trek is cool as well though.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/CaptainJamesTiberiusKirk.jpg

As for the Borg, yeah I believe that the Empire wouldn't care too much if they were missing a handful of Star Destroyers. Not only that, I believe there were some races in Voyager (or was it DS9?) that could block transporting or sensors without having the technology themselves. So, if they knew how, the Empire could tinker with the Interdictor technology and block transporting, and possibly Warp (if that was possible anyway)

The Borg would be the only real threat anyway, since the species was designed to be these next to unstoppable beings. The other races are more mortal in their technology and a Star Destroyer by itself should be able to take on many ST ships on its own given its size and multiple weapons platforms. Not to mention its large fighter force to add an extra complication for ST ships.

The Borg would be the only real threat anyway, since the species was designed to be these next to unstoppable beings. The other races are more mortal in their technology and a Star Destroyer by itself should be able to take on many ST ships on its own given its size and multiple weapons platforms. Not to mention its large fighter force to add an extra complication for ST ships.


I keep bringing up the Star Trek phase cloak technology, and this cloak is canon as it was revealed on the Next Generation. It is the same cloaking tech that all Kor Starships use, it renders a ship invisible & intangible! There is nothing in the SW Universe that could harm a ship with that cloak.
This technology alone would make the Federation more unstopable then the borg. Consider this ... personal phase cloaking devices being used by Federation Personnel to obtain all other types of technology, then employing it in addition to the regular federation technolgy. Star Bases with the phase cloak, multiple super lasers, possibly super phasers and Galaxy Guns. The Federation wouldn't even need Starships to lay waste to whoever they wished. Lucky thing Gene didn't invision Star Trek that way huh?

Wouldn't the flood assimilate the borg likewise, and then cybernetically assimilate the rest of the borg. But then at the same time the borg are assimilating the flood, ack this is madness...Awaits Sparta

Oh and MAC Cannon > Enterprise

Wouldn't it be, Borg drone nanoprobes flood drone, flood drone infects Borg drone. Both sides end up exchanging places again and again ad infinitum?
Maybe they'd sort of half assimilate each other and make some kind of in-between scary assimilate-y creature.
And any argument that the Borg could actually adapt to the power of a weapon that can destroy an entire planet is ludicrous to me.
They wouldn't adapt to it, they'd assimilate it......

They wouldn't adapt to it, they'd assimilate it......

They'd have to have quite a few Cubes in order to take control of the entire station...

They'd have to have quite a few Cubes in order to take control of the entire station...

Well once they got in(which would be a feat in and of itself) they'd have a station full of unwilling recruits.

Well once they got in(which would be a feat in and of itself) they'd have a station full of unwilling recruits.

Like I said earlier, even once they've adapted to their weapons, there are so many people on the station they could just rush the drones and just beat them to death. If they are able to get through stormtrooper armor to assimilate to begin with.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/CaptainJamesTiberiusKirk.jpg

That was awesome, were did you get that?

All pointless deebate aside, I suddenly feel the urge to see Chewbacca fight Worf.

lol. That´s what I want on Pay-per-View.

Galaxy vs. galaxy? Yeah. That's gonna happen.

For the sake of sanity, let's say after Nemesis and after Return of the King. Jedi! Jedi! Return of the Jedi.

The rebellion has won a major victory over the Empire, but said Empire is still fighting, yahta yahta. Some inexplicable Force, a Q factor, if you will, sticks both universes right next to each other. The Federation, after the Dominion War and the turmoil now surrounding the RSE if the major Alpha Quadrant Power, closely rivaled by the Klingon Empire.

The RSE, needless to say, isn't thrilled by this situation, and offers whoever's in charge of the Empire at this point (or one of the Warlords. Whatever), cloaking and/or transporter technology in exchange for military assistance in a bid to destroy the Klingon Empire.

The Borg go off and try and assimilate the Yuhazan Vong. (mutters about superspecies). Draw your own conclusions as to how that turns out.

Now, the Empire and the Klingons are fighting, which causes the Defiant to recieve orders to go help out the Rebellion. (Now the New Republic?). The Defiant arrives, on Chewbacca and Worf spar for some reason.

At this point, a rogue squad of Jem'Hadar (and I spelled that wrong), use the Iconian window technology to stage a series of commando raids, essentially wiping out the Federation, Klingon, and Romulan leadership. (Because those are the three powers that defeated the Dominion, doofus), as well as the Provisional Government of the occupied Cardassian Empire. As a result, the Klingon and Romulan Empires break into civil war, and Section Thirty-one returns behind a military coup of the Federation.

The thusly divided Klingon Empire falls before the Empire, who also snatches up the Romulans. A state of uneasy truce exists between the Federation and the Empire, which is beginning to reunite. Thrawn begins work on a third massive battlestation, in absolute secret. Despite this (of course,) word reaches the fragments of the Obsidian Order, and through them one humble tailor. A word in the ear of a Starfleet official who knows enough to trust him on this later, the Defiant recieves new orders.

Cue dramatic space/land fight scene as the Defiant and a rebel fleet try to take on the Death Star, while Kira Nereese (also spelled wrong), and Han Solo, along with an elite team beam down into the facility on a nearby planet to try and shut down the shield generator. The good guys win, (yayyyyyyyy!), and the Defiant goes off to try and bring back some semblance of sanity to the increasingly authoritarian Federation.

Star Trek has many more warships than the Star Wars universe has.

By the TNG/DS9 era, the Federation has about 30,000 starships in service. These range from the wimpy Oberths to the mighty Sovereign, Promethius, and Defiant class vessels.

Bullshit. I'd love to know where you pulled that figure from, since everything I've ever read or seen from ST refutes it.

The Klingon Empire has even more. By the start of the Dominion War, they still have more vessels than the Federation. This is despite the fact they lost much of their fleet during the recent wars against the Federation and Cardassians.

Again, cite a source. They have alot more vessels than the Federation, but nowhere close to 30,000.

The Romulan Star Empire has a smaller fleet size, but their D'deridex class warbirds are very deadly.

To their crew, and idiots with technology as poor as other Star Trek forces do. More on this later.

The Cardassians had around 15,000 vessels by the time they signed their treaty with the Dominion. Much of their fleet was lost in the surprise attack by the Klingons.

Cardassians are economically, politically, and militarily crippled post-Domion War. Basically a negligable force.

The Dominion has a massive fleet. In the late stages of the war, they had over 30,000 vessels in the Alpha Quadrant alone. This is a large number, but this was a sheer minority of their total fleet. The vast majority of their ships were on the other side of the Bajoran Wormhole.


Again, source your idiotic numbers. Trek states have such poor fleets that they include starfighters and support vessels in fleet counts, meaning that by your standards a single Star Destroyer would constitute a something like a 50-ship fleet with TIEs and shuttles.

There is also the Breen. Their fleet size has never been alluded to, but the SW ships wouldn't survive a hit from their energy weapon, which killed the Defiant.

The Defiant, like anything else the Feds made, is badly designed, weak-hulled, and poorly shielded. Just because a 9mm handgun round can punch through a steel office cabinet doesn't mean that it can punch through steel tank armour.

There are many other large factions in the ST universe such as the Gorn, Borg, Ferengi, Orion, and Xindi.

The Borg are the only faction that would pose a marginal challenge to the Empire or New Republic. However, with enough firepower to slag a fleet of cubes before they could 'adapt', and projectile weapons that negate the energy-blocking shields on Borg drones, it's a simple enough problem to fix.


The SW ships may be larger, but the sheer number of ST ships and their weapons make it obvious ST would win.

Utter idiocy. ST weapons have pitifully low yields - your heavy weapon Photon Torpedos have a maximum yield of roughly 64 megatons, or ~128 megatons for quantum torpedos. By contrast, the primary turbolasers on an Imperial-Class Star Destroyer average about 595 MT per cannon, or in the vicinity of 2,500,000 terrawatts.

Besides, we've heard that at it's prime the Empire had around 25,000 ISDs alone.

All it took to kill a super-star destroyer was an A-Wing crashing into it. That's just simply a sad statement about their ships. Alright, the Odyssey was killed in a kamikaze run, but the Dominion vessel was much closer in size to the Odyssey.

All it took was the A-Wing, after the Executor had been bombarded for a full half hour by vessels with firepower that's not even comprehensible to the Federation. You can't magically circumvent shields, you have to bring them down - something it took a whole Rebel fleet to accomplish, or in ST terms what the entire Borg Collective might be able to pull off in a few dozen years.


I realize that the destroyer lost its shields first, but the shield generator was easily taken out in a single pass by a few fighters. The shield generator was an easy target atop the bridge. That is very different from ST where the various shield generators are placed like a grid on the duranium hull plates.

See above; false.

By the end of Voyager, Starfleet is able to obtain transphasic torpedoes thanks to Janeway's violation of the Temporal Directive. These torpedoes can pass through shields and hulls to destroy vessels in a single blow.

Wrong, they can destroy Star Trek vessels with single hits. Nothing in Star Wars is as laughably low-durability as your spacewhales, excepting starfighters.

Other weapons like the Borg cutting ray are unaffected by shields. The Breen energy weapon isn't only unaffected by shields, but it takes them down along with every other electically powered system on the ship.

They penetrate Star Trek shields, which work on what seems to be a different mechanism to Star Wars ones. Further, your ships are virtually unarmoured under their precious shield nets, while SW vessels are heavily reinforced.

The many SW fighters would not be effective against the best Federation starships. I do grant they would be able to harm any vessel predating the Ambassador class ships.

Unlikely, but possible. To be able to damage the Death Star with it's lasers, the quad laser cannons on his X-Wing must have had at least a 60 GJ/shot output... and that's assuming the DS was made of something as primitive as iron.

Fighter-carried Proton Torpedos have a yield hypothesized in the mega- or gigaton range.

Ships prior to the Ambassador class had phaser banks instead of arrays. These could only be fired in a single concentrated beam. The Ambassador class and later ships with phaser arrays can divide up the power for the phasers and simultaneously fire several beams at various targets.

Point being? Regardless of phaser system type, Star Trek vessels still somehow manage to miss each other by spectacular margins, even when only a few hundred meters from each other.

If a Galaxy class were attacked by a dozen tie fighters, she could simply split the power from her phasers to simultaneously fire 12 beams with 1/12 the power of a concentrated beam at each target and kill it.

See above; a Galaxy hitting something the size of a TIE is hilarious, since they can miss targets over half a kilometer long when engaging at ranges less than the length of their own vessel.

There is another thing ST ships can do, they can simply go to warp and engage their enemy while at warp speeds. ST ships have the ability to fight at warp speeds. SW ships can't so they would be sitting ducks as the ST ships make passes at them.


Wrong, we can jump into hyperspace and outrun you by far.

Many SW fans argue their ships are faster. This is simply not the case. The only onscreen reference to speed told us that the Millenium Falcon (fastest ship in SW) had a top speed of 1.5 c. Even the old NX class could run circles around that at 140.6c. There is also the fact that the Borg have Transwarp capabilities, which give them almost infinite speed.

Of all the dumb Trekkie arguments, this is the dumbest. Han Solo stated that the Falcon could go ".5 past lightspeed", not "1.5 times the speed of light". How do you know that hyperdrive classes don't work by a logritmic (sp?) or even more complex scale, fool? How would Class 2 or Class 3 hyperdrives work in your context?

Perhaps the reason why the Falcon can quickly transverse the galaxy is that the SW galaxy is much smaller than the Milky Way. It's a definite possibility since galaxies definitely have a large variance when it comes to their sizes. Scientists have actually discovered real galaxies only 1/100 the size of the Milky Way.

Wrong. The SW galaxy has been discribed to be larger than the Milky Way.

Even at sub-light speed, ST ships are faster. SW ships have weak ion engines. Compare that to ST impulse drives. Even in TMP, the Enterprise achieved a speed of .5c under impulse alone. By TNG era they could go .75c under impulse.

More Dumb writers not knowing what they're talking about. It's specifically been stated that an Bajoran starfigher could accelerate at about 15.6 m/s^2. The X-Wings at the battle of Yavin accelerated by at least 17,000 m/s^2.


Star Trek wins here once more. There is no way SW would be able to deal with transporters.

Wrong. Transporters get blocked by everything from gravetic fields to naturally occuring radiation.

Phasers have also been shown to be much more powerful than blasters. At type 16 setting, they can cause large explosions. If someone were to fire it a few meters in front of a Jedi, it would cause a large explosion while being out of the range of deflection by the lightsaber.

Phasers opperate by dreamworld physics and are so far from the remotest scrap of realism that it makes genocide of ST writers palatable. They've been blocked - consistently - by packing crates which a blaster bolt would perforate.


There are also projectile weapons like the TR-116. That weapon can be fitted with a transporter to fire through bulkheads.

Overly high-tech and inefficient. Besides, you have a better sniper rifle. Congradulations, we have better infantry, ranged weapons, armoured vehicles, close combat weapons, command stucture, logistic support...

Star Trek has never demonstrated combined arms capacity. You fail.

ST ships have cloak. Some newer cloaks allow vessels to pass through solid matter when cloaked. Vessels like the Scimitar and Chang's Bird of Prey can fire when cloaked.

Who cares? CGT scanners from Star Wars can detect cloaked vessels, and Star Wars ships also have cloaking devices.

Yes the Death Star can easily kill planets. It isn't anything ST ships can't do. Any vessel can have a trilithium device placed into a photon torpedo or probe. that device can then be fired at a star. Not only is the star destroyed, but the shockwave destroys every planet in the system.

Only ever done successfully by Soren, who was killed and his research destroyed along with his last missile.

The Defiant also showed us that 2 quantum torpedoes fired into an atmosphere can make a planet unlivable.

Base Delta Zero can be performed by any ship with sufficient firepower, never mind quantorps which have yet to be issued fleetwide.


Even a Danube class runabout can destroy an entire starsystem. The changeling who replaced Bashir attempted to do this.

Source?

Now I believe I've proven that ST is better than SW. I also believe I've proven I'm a nerd who watches way too many re-runs on Spike TV between classes.

Nope, you've just proven that you're a nerd. So what, most of us are. You just chose the wrong side.

Star Trek phase cloak technology

Ack, that sounds bothersome. Although I would assume there would have to be some weakness somewhere. All else fails, SW can simply hyperspace somewhere else and blow something else up or, do a quick orbital bombardment hit-and-run.

Oh, as for those numbers related to fleet sizes, most ST 'fleets' count fighters and small craft. So.... 25,000 ISDs, multiplied by 72 fighters/gunship per SD (assuming each ISD is full). Do the math and you end up with 1,800,000 'small craft'. So, the Feds would at least call it a 1,825,000 fleet if they happened to be traveling in one place. Which probably wouldn't happen because a hit-and-run campaign would be perfect with the Empire against anyone sitting around.

And, for anyone stealing technology, just because they understand how it works doesn't mean they can make it work. So, say the Feds get their hands on a single Hyperdrive. Could it work by itself? would they be able to mass produce these hyperdrives. Do the materials exist in their galaxy? Furthermore, Voyager and her crew tried a lot of alien technology to get back home faster. They understood how it works, but it didn't work out with the ship or they couldn't duplicate the results. There's also the chance that ST ships could break apart in hyperspace due to the forces involved. Or, the other way around, if the Empire or the Rebels tried to use a warp drive (reason why would be beyond me). Would it work with your run of the mill ISD? Would the forces involved in warp travel cause problems for any SW ship?

Flood Vs. Borg? That would be an interesting fight. Call an assimilate-off and go at it O.o

So...the guy who came up with the SW numbers for the "Five-minutes" link explicitly states that those numbers were pulled out of his ass.
Meanwhile, the ST numbers come from two men who have worked on three TV series for over a decade.

And those two men did get their numbers from where?
Careful and peer rewiewed research perhaps?
Do they have a degree in transwarp engineering?

Methinks you are loosing your grasp on reality.

The Defiant, like anything else the Feds made, is badly designed, weak-hulled, and poorly shielded. Just because a 9mm handgun round can punch through a steel office cabinet doesn't mean that it can punch through steel tank armour.


As your always saying in your poorly thought-out post, "cite me a source".


Utter idiocy. ST weapons have pitifully low yields - your heavy weapon Photon Torpedos have a maximum yield of roughly 64 megatons, or ~128 megatons for quantum torpedos. By contrast, the primary turbolasers on an Imperial-Class Star Destroyer average about 595 MT per cannon, or in the vicinity of 2,500,000 terrawatts.

Okay, this is just bullshit. Star Trek quantum, gravimetric, and photon torpedoes average in the teratons.


Wrong, they can destroy Star Trek vessels with single hits. Nothing in Star Wars is as laughably low-durability as your spacewhales, excepting starfighters.
Your evidence for this is roughly the same as the evidence that donkeys can jump to lightspeed unassisted.



They penetrate Star Trek shields, which work on what seems to be a different mechanism to Star Wars ones. Further, your ships are virtually unarmoured under their precious shield nets, while SW vessels are heavily reinforced.


Once again, Your evidence for this is roughly the same as the evidence that donkeys can jump to lightspeed unassisted.



See above; a Galaxy hitting something the size of a TIE is hilarious, since they can miss targets over half a kilometer long when engaging at ranges less than the length of their own vessel.


Snared in your own logic here. By this logic, a star destroyer couldn't hit a galaxy-class starship either.


Star Trek has never demonstrated combined arms capacity. You fail.


Except, of course, in all those gigantic space battles.


Nope, you've just proven that you're a nerd. So what, most of us are. You just chose the wrong side.

By which you mean, "the side I don't like".

Okay, this is just bullshit. Star Trek quantum, gravimetric, and photon torpedoes average in the teratons.

Not only that, but a small vessel owned by a well-known bounty hunter can easily destroy an asteroid with roughly the same firepower. You haven't even considered all the 'illegal' technology most of the bounty hunters sling around. Not only that, it's been quoted by Darth Vadar himself that Boba Fett is capable of disintegrating his targets. I believe Boba's ship is a lot smaller than most ST vessels, not including any of the other Bounty Hunter vessels (who we only know about their backstory through the EU).

Snared in your own logic here. By this logic, a star destroyer couldn't hit a galaxy-class starship either.

Uhh.. what the hell are you talking about? It's being said that a Fed vessel couldn't hit the broadside of a fast-moving barn, that probably doesn't apply to ISDs.

Except, of course, in all those gigantic space battles.

And how many of those gigantic space battles do the Feds actually win? they got reamed in a straight fight against a single borg cube, they had to use mines against the Dominion

By which you mean, "the side I don't like".

Even with that said, SW starship and infantry capabilities still outweigh most of the Alpha Quadrant's races, as well as anyone less powerful than the Borg. Just because you 'don't like it' doesn't mean it can't win.

For what concernes cloaking devices in SW:
Needa and his men duck as the Falcon nears the bridge
window. At the last minute, the Falcon veers off and out of
sight. All is quiet.
NEEDA: Track them,. They may come around for another pass.
TRACKING OFFICER: Captain Needa, the ship no longer appears on our scopes.
NEEDA: They can't have disappeared. No ship that small has a cloaking
device.
TRACKING OFFICER: Well, there's no trace of them, sir.
COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER: Captain, Lord Vader demands an update
on the pursuit.
NEEDA: (drawing a breath) Get a shuttle ready. I shall assume full
responsibility for losing them, and apologize to Lord Vader.
Meanwhile, continue to scan the area.
See? SW does have canon cloaking devices.

For what concernes the Millenium Falcon Hyperspace speed:
INTERIOR: MOS EISLEY SPACEPORT -- DOCKING BAY 94
Chewbacca leads the group into a giant dirt pit that is Docking
Bay 94. Resting in the middle of the huge hole is a large,
round, beat-up, pieced-together hunk of junk that could only
loosely be called a starship.
LUKE: What a piece of junk.
The tall figure of Han Solo comes down the boarding ramp.
HAN: She'll make point five beyond the speed of light. She may not
look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've added some
special modifications myself.
Luke scratches his head. It's obvious he isn't sure about
all this. Chewbacca rushes up the ramp and urges the others to
follow.
HAN: We're a little rushed, so if you'll hurry aboard we'll get out of
here.
As you can read nothing is said about the real speed of the ship. You cannot assume that it just means 1.5c because it suits you. It just means that "She'll make point five (Km/h, LY/ns, donughts, coffe, whatever) beyond the speed of light" obviously the figure means something to Luke and Han so it doesn't have to be elaborated since that would only make the plot boring.

In the manual of the SW RPG this point is actually pretty much adressed and, if i recall correctly, it is tought to be a time reduction factor whereas smaller is better (i.e. .5 is much faster than 1) but this can be obviously discounted as non canon, right?

One last point, it cannot be argued that SW ion engines are slow because NASA is developing them because those are SW (i.e. a fantasy universe) ion engines and not RL ion engines.

Oh, and i forgot!

Galaxy Quest wins!

;)

Star Wars. No contest.

It's a logical assumption that due to Borg tendencies to keep things uniform that their ship shields would be simply upscaled versions of their personnel shields.
No, because Borg ships are not airtight. They use forcefields to keep out space junk (Like starships navagation deflectors) when travling at high speeds. So it would seem that their ships are well capable of deflecting any large projectile weaponry.

This is shown by how torpedos (which are physical) don't have an effect upon the Borg cubes once they adapt.

Besides, if the Federation was so stupid as to not keep some sort of projectile weaponry for anti-Borg use despite their proven capacity, I doubt they would have upscaled it to affect ship level weapons tech.
Well, two reasons. Phasers are more effecient in that term. One shot=kill as opposed to projctiles where you HOPE it hits something vital.

And two, the only real time it's been shown to work is with Picard in the holodeck and there Rule Number 1 of both universes kick in "The Good Guys Always Win". ;)

If they are able to get through stormtrooper armor to assimilate to begin with.
Dude, the Stormtroopers' armor couldn't stand up to the Ewoks' rocks and flint tipped arrows. As far as I can tell that armor is cosmetic.

Dude, the Stormtroopers' armor couldn't stand up to the Ewoks' rocks and flint tipped arrows. As far as I can tell that armor is cosmetic.

Is the armor like that in the Star Wars universe though? As far as I can tell, the Ewoks were put in the movies as a crowd pleaser, and it would seem even stupider if all they did was get killed. Seems like Lucas made their weapons a little over-effective, eh? Also, do blasters do penetrative damage? I though they just burned you horribly, if they do then the storm trooper's armor would be designed to absorb heat and prevent the wearer from being fried.

I'm going with Star Trek:

First mistake, but you are after all only human :P

Star Trek has many more warships than the Star Wars universe has.

By the TNG/DS9 era, the Federation has about 30,000 starships in service. These range from the wimpy Oberths to the mighty Sovereign, Promethius, and Defiant class vessels.

I disagree. Primarily because the Federation on her attempt at retaking Deep Space Nine, dedicated a significant portion of its forces (two complete fleets) to an attack on the station to regain control of the wormhole during the Dominion war.

This task force consisted of roughly 600 ships, including fighters. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the Federation possessed no more than a few thousand ships at the time. (If two fleets including fighters consist of merely six hundred ships.)

The Klingon Empire has even more. By the start of the Dominion War, they still have more vessels than the Federation. This is despite the fact they lost much of their fleet during the recent wars against the Federation and Cardassians.

I would be even more assertive in stating you are wrong. Dialogue from Way of the Warrior clearly establishes that a Klingon attack force comprised over a third of the Klingon military, and that the very first wave of the attack would consist of over a hundred ships. If we assume that there are several waves (three or four) it logically follows that the Klingon fleet is from 1000-2000 ships.

The Romulan Star Empire has a smaller fleet size, but their D'deridex class warbirds are very deadly.

I would agree their size is similar to the Klingons yes.

The Cardassians had around 15,000 vessels by the time they signed their treaty with the Dominion. Much of their fleet was lost in the surprise attack by the Klingons.

I would really like to see your sources here, you seem to be conflicting with canon.....

I make this assumption primarily because in the episode immediately before "Sacrifice of Angels", in which Weyoun angrily asked "Two large enemy fleets break off from the front lines and rendezvous at a starbase and you have no idea why?" I find this a Pretty strange way to react when a small and insignificant group of ships moves about, isn't it?

Next we have the episode "A Time to Stand", in which Doctor Bashir reports news of the seventh fleet? What was it he said? Oh yes, he said: "out of 112 ships, only 14 made it back." In other words, the Seventh fleet originally numbered 112 ships. This fleet was used to attack the Dominion at one point.

If the Cardassians had so many ships, including the Domions support, one would assume the Federations assault would be with far more than 112 ships....

The Dominion has a massive fleet. In the late stages of the war, they had over 30,000 vessels in the Alpha Quadrant alone. This is a large number, but this was a sheer minority of their total fleet. The vast majority of their ships were on the other side of the Bajoran Wormhole.

You are spouting facts without support in direct conflict to canon claims to fleet sizes, and ship numbers from the series. I would go back and take a look at your numbers again....

There is also the Breen. Their fleet size has never been alluded to, but the SW ships wouldn't survive a hit from their energy weapon, which killed the Defiant.

I agree that their fleet numbers have not been eluded to, but, they were not significant enough to defeat the entire Klingon empire, when the allied forces of the Alpha Quadrant were rendered useless.

There are many other large factions in the ST universe such as the Gorn, Borg, Ferengi, Orion, and Xindi.

Agreed, however they, would never ally in any concentrated effort to take on the Empire. I think it's been proven enough that the Borg will betray anyone at any time, for any reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The SW ships may be larger, but the sheer number of ST ships and their weapons make it obvious ST would win.

How do you work that one out? That's just an opinion without any fact or reasoning behind it?

All it took to kill a super-star destroyer was an A-Wing crashing into it. That's just simply a sad statement about their ships. Alright, the Odyssey was killed in a kamikaze run, but the Dominion vessel was much closer in size to the Odyssey.

Actually, it took a head on collision with a moon sized battlestation to destroy the Executor.... The close proximity with the Death Star, and the fact that it takes time to move controls from the bridge to engineering sadly resulted in her destruction. An A-wing did not destroy the Executor, hitting a moon did.

I realize that the destroyer lost its shields first, but the shield generator was easily taken out in a single pass by a few fighters. The shield generator was an easy target atop the bridge. That is very different from ST where the various shield generators are placed like a grid on the duranium hull plates.

I believe Ackbarr ordering the entire rebel fleet to engage the SSD at point blank range, is what done the damage. If fighters were so effective, what's the point in capital ships? :confused:

By the end of Voyager, Starfleet is able to obtain transphasic torpedoes thanks to Janeway's violation of the Temporal Directive. These torpedoes can pass through shields and hulls to destroy vessels in a single blow.

Other weapons like the Borg cutting ray are unaffected by shields. The Breen energy weapon isn't only unaffected by shields, but it takes them down along with every other electically powered system on the ship.

You're assuming Imperial ships work on the same provision Federation vessels do. The Breen weapons, were countered and thusly, you have no idea the effect they would have on Imperial vessels, since they obviously use more advanced tehcnology, who knows what random happenings in their engine cores could aide them? Just like that Klingon Bird of Prey.....

As for Voyager you have no evidence that starfleet would produce or were even capable of producing such weapons with their technological level without futuristic Janesways help. The Federation would also, as per the Prime Directive probably not utilise this technology, for fear of disrupting the timeline. Hence it being the.... Prime Directive.

------------------------------------------------------------

Fighters vs. Starships:

The many SW fighters would not be effective against the best Federation starships. I do grant they would be able to harm any vessel predating the Ambassador class ships.

Ships prior to the Ambassador class had phaser banks instead of arrays. These could only be fired in a single concentrated beam. The Ambassador class and later ships with phaser arrays can divide up the power for the phasers and simultaneously fire several beams at various targets.

Take a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4 Proof enough that Beam weapons are not 100% effective on vessels of capital ships size, let alone fighters, they miss.... a lot. Or here in Sacrifice of Angels.... Pay close attention to the Jem Hadar, warriors cloned and bred for combat, chasing the Defiant, using beam weapons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCm70favfYI



If a Galaxy class were attacked by a dozen tie fighters, she could simply split the power from her phasers to simultaneously fire 12 beams with 1/12 the power of a concentrated beam at each target and kill it.

You're assuming they wouldn't be firing at the capital ship that just launched them?

There is another thing ST ships can do, they can simply go to warp and engage their enemy while at warp speeds. ST ships have the ability to fight at warp speeds. SW ships can't so they would be sitting ducks as the ST ships make passes at them.

When other ships are moving at warp, if not the ST ships would pass the Imperial vessel before being capable or actually.... hitting them.


--------------------------------------------------

Many SW fans argue their ships are faster. This is simply not the case. The only onscreen reference to speed told us that the Millenium Falcon (fastest ship in SW) had a top speed of 1.5 c. Even the old NX class could run circles around that at 140.6c. There is also the fact that the Borg have Transwarp capabilities, which give them almost infinite speed.

Expanded universe is canon, accept it and it details Hyperspace clearly enough. The Borg have transwarp yes they do, no one else does. The Borg may I add do not share technology.

Perhaps the reason why the Falcon can quickly transverse the galaxy is that the SW galaxy is much smaller than the Milky Way. It's a definite possibility since galaxies definitely have a large variance when it comes to their sizes. Scientists have actually discovered real galaxies only 1/100 the size of the Milky Way.

Funny how Lucas says otherwise, and in Revenge of the Sith, OB1 when detailing the outer rim sieges clearly shows a Galaxy pretty much the same as our own. Once again you are ignoring what the founder of Star Wars says and dictates about his own genre. Accept that what Lucas says is Gospel.

Even at sub-light speed, ST ships are faster. SW ships have weak ion engines. Compare that to ST impulse drives. Even in TMP, the Enterprise achieved a speed of .5c under impulse alone. By TNG era they could go .75c under impulse.

Yet they have very short ranger not exceeding a hundred kilometers, to be effective they would have to remain in an Imperial firing arc, where thanks to their more numerous weapons would be rather capable of saturating the area with firepower.

---------------------------------------------------------

Infantry combat:

Star Trek wins here once more. There is no way SW would be able to deal with transporters.

I disagree, firstly because transporters cannot function through shields. And the Star Wars universe makes significant use of ground based shielding over entire planets/continents. However some Trek cultists repeatedly point out that transport has indeed occurred through shields in the past, it must be noted that defects, seams, or known weaknesses in the shields were exploited in these incidents, rather than a new method of simply transporting directly through a full-strength shield. This means that nothing can be transported in combat unless the target vessel's shields are dropped first.

Secondly, if transporters were so effective, the Federation and or Dominion would have used them in many ground battles in the war, we have no such proof. I would assume it is because Transporters are so easily disrupted, for example in the movie Insurrection they are disrupted by ore deposits, or in multiple episodes, natural atmospheric radiation.

Phasers have also been shown to be much more powerful than blasters. At type 16 setting, they can cause large explosions. If someone were to fire it a few meters in front of a Jedi, it would cause a large explosion while being out of the range of deflection by the lightsaber.

And a Star Wars hand held pistol does not?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/DockingBay94.jpg

There are also projectile weapons like the TR-116. That weapon can be fitted with a transporter to fire through bulkheads.

Would be very expensive and difficult to do in a war time situation? But lets ignore that for a second. You are assuming things here, not stating canonical fact. Wide use of such a device is not within the mainstay of the ST universe, but, for small arms, I suppose I could point out the vast droid armies of the Star Wars universe, the great production lines of Geonosis? Surely you do not continue to dispute the inability for the Federation to this?

----------------------------------------------------------

Stealth

ST ships have cloak. Some newer cloaks allow vessels to pass through solid matter when cloaked. Vessels like the Scimitar and Chang's Bird of Prey can fire when cloaked.

So can Imperial ships. Big deal....

----------------------------------------------------------

Planet destruction

Yes the Death Star can easily kill planets. It isn't anything ST ships can't do. Any vessel can have a trilithium device placed into a photon torpedo or probe. that device can then be fired at a star. Not only is the star destroyed, but the shockwave destroys every planet in the system. The Defiant also showed us that 2 quantum torpedoes fired into an atmosphere can make a planet unlivable. Even a Danube class runabout can destroy an entire starsystem. The changeling who replaced Bashir attempted to do this.

A world devestator, A Galaxy Gun, A Death Star, A Sun Crusher, all do the same damage as your concieved superweapon, yet you ignore the obvious. Firstly, Warp is much slower than Hyperdrive, and that it would take years, if not months to reach Imperial systems, the war would probably be over before any damage was done.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I believe I've proven that ST is better than SW. I also believe I've proven I'm a nerd who watches way too many re-runs on Spike TV between classes.

You have proven that you can declare things out of thin air without any regard to canon from either genre.

I sense a disturbance in the force....almost as if someone posted something 3 times....

Is the armor like that in the Star Wars universe though? As far as I can tell, the Ewoks were put in the movies as a crowd pleaser, and it would seem even stupider if all they did was get killed. Seems like Lucas made their weapons a little over-effective, eh? Also, do blasters do penetrative damage? I though they just burned you horribly, if they do then the storm trooper's armor would be designed to absorb heat and prevent the wearer from being fried.
The films are the ultra canon. So if the Ewoks got through, I can only assume that the armor isn't all that great against penetration. Given the Borg nanoprobes can go through EV suits (also designed to stop people from being fried), I'm fairly certain that Stormtrooper armor isn't going to stop them.

The films are the ultra canon. So if the Ewoks got through, I can only assume that the armor isn't all that great against penetration.
I know it's canon, I just think Lucas was being a moron.

Given the Borg nanoprobes can go through EV suits (also designed to stop people from being fried), I'm fairly certain that Stormtrooper armor isn't going to stop them.
Good point.

No, because Borg ships are not airtight. They use forcefields to keep out space junk (Like starships navagation deflectors) when travling at high speeds. So it would seem that their ships are well capable of deflecting any large projectile weaponry.

This is shown by how torpedos (which are physical) don't have an effect upon the Borg cubes once they adapt.

I always figured it was the funky energy warheads that the shields adapted to so that you'd get a dent in the structure, but that's about it.


Well, two reasons. Phasers are more effecient in that term. One shot=kill as opposed to projctiles where you HOPE it hits something vital.

Well, frag grenades would work just as nicely. Or phosphorus ones. Borg flesh isn't fire retardant. I mean, where's the number one infantry carried room clearer?


And two, the only real time it's been shown to work is with Picard in the holodeck and there Rule Number 1 of both universes kick in "The Good Guys Always Win". ;)

Not really. Since hand to hand combat works on the Borg (not that it'd probably do much), it's logical to assume that their shields wouldn't stop physical objects.

Heck, why not go really old fashion? Use the replicators and port in a nice form fitting heavy stone roller (the kind used to flatten golf greens), and make Borg pate.

I stand by my assertion that the Federation is filled with stupid, tactically retarded people, in all branches who can only be saved by occasional techno-babble and the appearance of random good guys.

The films are the ultra canon. So if the Ewoks got through, I can only assume that the armor isn't all that great against penetration. Given the Borg nanoprobes can go through EV suits (also designed to stop people from being fried), I'm fairly certain that Stormtrooper armor isn't going to stop them.

Most of the time, it's concussion on the Endor moon that knocks out a storm trooper not the fact that their amrour is broken, though we have many pictures of such events happening. I suppose I'm not the only one to take into consideration that there were the emperors best troops and that their armour was more than certainly going to be marked with battle scars, cracks, flaws, as they're pushed into combat for an operation none of them would have had time to prepare for.

But, we're not taking any accound of the back story to the movies, just the assumption that Ewoks broke the armour.

blah blah i love dark vader etc

The federation could not divert all of their ships to the dominion war, in fact it would take 5 years for most ships to cross the entire federation, so it is logical to assume the majority of the federation fleet was tasked elsewhere during the war and that of all the ships in the theater of the dominion war, only some were fit for a deliberate combat role and of those only a fraction could be spared from station and planetary defense to mount attacks or combat air patrols if you will. The "about 30,000" ship figure is an estimate based on ships registry numbers between ships which was fist suggested by a senior member of the star trek production team. We must also consider many federation ships are science vessels, transports or other non-front line combatants, although they are surely all armed to some extent.

if we are following guidelines from the OP and its not federation against empire its st vs SW, we know there are faster modes of transportation than warp in the ST universe; trans-warp(the federation in kirks era have experimented with and voyager in era have archived trans-warp speeds twice, once on their own, and once after stealing a coil, quantum slipstream(achieved by voyager on thier own and faster than trans-warp), space-folding(alien tech that they got), wormholes(naturally occurring and artificial) to name a few...

also we have seen "free borg" (unimatrix 001) who might ally with the federation and share tech anyway

The films are the ultra canon. So if the Ewoks got through, I can only assume that the armor isn't all that great against penetration. Given the Borg nanoprobes can go through EV suits (also designed to stop people from being fried), I'm fairly certain that Stormtrooper armor isn't going to stop them.

sure the troopers went down, but I think its more because of the concussive force of having alot of clubs banging on your head.

also, armor built to withstand blasters and other energy weapons may not be thick enough or padded enough to stand against physical attacks.

How many times did a stormtrooper fall down subduded after being flipped over the shoulder (Han), punched (chewbacca) or slingshoted into a tree (Han on endor.) which is more proof that Storm Trooper armor isn't that effective protecting the wearer from physical attacks. but they still do not show the armor itself being breached.

No, because Borg ships are not airtight. They use forcefields to keep out space junk (Like starships navagation deflectors) when travling at high speeds. So it would seem that their ships are well capable of deflecting any large projectile weaponry. neither is the Federation ships. watch First Contact. Picard shows Cochrane's assistant a window protected only by a force feild.

This is shown by how torpedos (which are physical) don't have an effect upon the Borg cubes once they adapt.from the construction of the Torpedo, (tech manuals) the damage comes from the micro Anti-matter explosion from the payload. for all you know, the physical damage is still done. I.E. the physical casing does damage the cube, but the explosion is contained.


Well, two reasons. Phasers are more effecient in that term. One shot=kill as opposed to projctiles where you HOPE it hits something vital. which shows the Federation's weakness... to dependant on Technology. Read the Graphic Novel "Debt of Honor." One of the Federation officers shows his contempt to the Romulan's Assault Rifle (Slug thrower) then they meet a foe that was resistant to energy attacks... may not be cannon, but you never see any Federation person using a physical weapon.

The federation could not divert all of their ships to the dominion war, in fact it would take 5 years for most ships to cross the entire federation.

How do you then assume they would be capable of attacking a Galactic Empire? Let alone defend their territory in time against a force that moves many millions of times the speed of light? If by your own admission they cannot even cross their territory in time to fight a war that threatens their very survival, but a smaller foe than the Galactic Empire?

So it is logical to assume the majority of the federation fleet was tasked elsewhere during the war and that of all the ships in the theater of the dominion war, only some were fit for a deliberate combat role and of those only a fraction could be spared from station and planetary defense to mount attacks or combat air patrols if you will.

There nothing logical about that at all. Incase you forget the fate of the entire Alpha quadrant lay in the balance with the dominion war, the federation would have sent everything they could have to prevent the dominion invading and even winning. What you're saying is that Stalin, when Hitler invaded ordered the red army to move to the Chinese border instead or ordering everything towards Stalingrad.

The "about 30,000" ship figure is an estimate based on ships registry numbers between ships which was fist suggested by a senior member of the star trek production team. We must also consider many federation ships are science vessels, transports or other non-front line combatants, although they are surely all armed to some extent.

IDF was referring to military ships of the line capable of waging and providing significant support to the war effort. A science vessel or a freighter does not do this. Either way, I assume you are therefore in agreement with my estimation of military ship numbers? Since you did not disagree.

If we are following guidelines from the OP and its not federation against empire its st vs SW, we know there are faster modes of transportation than warp in the ST universe; trans-warp(the federation in kirks era have experimented with and voyager in era have archived trans-warp speeds twice, once on their own, and once after stealing a coil, quantum slipstream(achieved by voyager on thier own and faster than trans-warp), space-folding(alien tech that they got), wormholes(naturally occurring and artificial) to name a few...

Yet despite Voyager having contact with Earth for some time before the end of the Dominion war, the Federation did not install this technological equipment to obtain a significant tactical advantage. Remember, slipstream failed and was put aside by Janeway as too dangerous to use.

As for the rest of their FTL technology, I'm sure if the Federation was capable they would have begun using it in their fleet during the war that threatened their very existence.

Also we have seen "free borg" (unimatrix 001) who might ally with the federation and share tech anyway

Big assumption in a big Galaxy, there no reason to assume the Empire would attack everyone at once, or that the Federation would even know of their presence. Unimatrix 001 was also extermianted by the Brog queen....

But that's not the point, the Federation would never willingly or openly trust the borg or even use their technology in their own systems, it has a habit of taking over ships, and thusly the Federation as a whole.

It's annoying how some people say how 'physical objects' don't affect the Borg. While hand to hand combat with Borg is very risky, it shows physical objects can affect them.

Aren't ISDs capable of cloak? I'm sure somewhere it's mentioned (Thrawn maybe?)

As for the Storm troopers, their inaccuracy has to do with "Good Guy Vs. Bad Guy" physics. You can't have the bad guys be spot accurate when the good guys are on the scene, you don't want them dead unless they're like... Unnamed. I also beleive that some of the Ewok's tactics working didn't make sense. The rolling logs against the walker make sense (you trip in those things, your screwed), the two thick heavy trees smashing into the armor of a walker kinda makes sense.

Although they shouldn't have been the main point of the battle, they should have gotten slaughtered unless they were born from birth to kill things. I vote for the Ewoks to be more violent and bloodthirsty, not cute and cuddly.

On a side note: I take grim satifiction in the death of Ewoks. Shooting them in Star Wars: Battlefront is too tempting (their 'war cries' drive me insane), and the Empire at War expansion creates 'slave ewoks' trained to be suicide bombers. Awesome stuff.

The Spaceballs universe would own them both - It has the best of both worlds!

Really, Star Trek would win. I'm not going to restate all of the reasons, but thats my vote.

The question is which universe wins if all factions in one universe were to fight all the factions in the other.



Sith, did u see that in the original post?

which shows the Federation's weakness... to dependant on Technology. Read the Graphic Novel "Debt of Honor." One of the Federation officers shows his contempt to the Romulan's Assault Rifle (Slug thrower) then they meet a foe that was resistant to energy attacks... may not be cannon, but you never see any Federation person using a physical weapon.

I'd say pig headed stubborness rather than tech dependance. If they've got phasers, I'm sure they've got high performance railguns that would core a Borg drone....

I've just had a really odd thought. Chainsaw wielding rednecks vs Borg drones. I'd say better than even odds.

JuNii, rather than rely on non-canon books, watch deep space nine episode which revolves around the TR-116 sniper rifle, a federation projectile weapon.

Sith, did u see that in the original post?

The thing is, most trekkies try to limit the factions available to SW while taking everything but the kitchen sink for ST. It'd be much easier if it went on a class by class basis. If only SW movies are used, then only ST movies. If ST series are used, then include SW series (I think there's an animated series somewhere). If ST books are used, include SW books. So on, so forth.

I'd say pig headed stubborness rather than tech dependance. If they've got phasers, I'm sure they've got high performance railguns that would core a Borg drone....

I've just had a really odd thought. Chainsaw wielding rednecks vs Borg drones. I'd say better than even odds.
can you give me any episode or movie excluding the series Enterprise, where a federation officer is armed normally with a Slug Thrower?

Normally, so Picards Holodeck tommy gun, Sulu's pistol collection, the various swords given/found per episode are all discounted.


"Whoooo wee billy bob... check out that there Ipod thingie on that white boy... that dang must've hurt somethin fierce." :D

The thing is, most trekkies try to limit the factions available to SW while taking everything but the kitchen sink for ST. It'd be much easier if it went on a class by class basis. If only SW movies are used, then only ST movies. If ST series are used, then include SW series (I think there's an animated series somewhere). If ST books are used, include SW books. So on, so forth.

imo only movies and live action tv-series really should be considered

the star trek cartoon shouldn't count nor should sw cartoon nor books!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JuNii, rather than rely on non-canon books, watch deep space nine episode which revolves around the TR-116 sniper rifle, a federation projectile weapon.

you mean this weapon (http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/TR-116_rifle)...
The TR-116 rifle is a hand-held rifle-type weapon, a projectile weapon developed by Starfleet Security for use in dampening fields or radiogenic environments where conventional energy weapons would be useless. The rifle fires a chemically propelled tritanium bullet. A working prototype of the weapon was developed, but Starfleet opted not to produce the weapon after the advent of the regenerative phaser.

NOT PRODUCED BEYOND THE PROTOTYPE!!!

The ones used were modified but were not NORMALY assigned to Star Fleet Officers.

but you never see any Federation person using a physical weapon
.

My point is: The entire episode revolved around 2 federation persons using a physical weapon.

can you give me any episode or movie excluding the series Enterprise, where a federation officer is armed normally with a Slug Thrower?

Ah, I mistated myself. I meant that they should have the ability to produce and equip their combat teams with slug throwers.


"Whoooo wee billy bob... check out that there Ipod thingie on that white boy... that dang must've hurt somethin fierce." :D

"Them white trash young'uns these days, always going with them fancy new piercings."

:p

Might I point out that the Clone Wars were EU before the movies were created? How would we know that Darth Vader became the way he was because of a fight over a pit of lava against Obi-wan? It was hinted at in ANH, but it wasn't mentioned that was how he ended up that way. I believe there is some truth in the details between the movies and the novelizations. It's been said that the EU is a 'foggy window' into the SW universe. While some things aren't all fact, there is some fact in them. So, you can't leave out the EU, they depict events occuring outside the movie or not seen in the background. I beleive the EU also includes why the Rebels left Yavin, and the large force that attacked it in revenge of the destruction of the Death Star.

So your opinion is that ST would win, but as far as the 'facts' of both universe show, they invalidate your opinion. Hell, several of the posters already have said roughly the same thing arguing against IDF.

As for most of the 'gods', Q didn't do a damn thing against the Dominion, they wouldn't help out the 'lesser mortals'.

While you say "the borg can adapt to bullets because the ones in First Contact were holographic." Then explain the need for 'safeties' if they're not real to some extent?

The ST animated series doesn't count because Gene Roddenberry says that it isn't canon himself! He also considers the original series to NOT be canon. You can also ask the higher-ups in both Lucas companies that the EU books ARE canon, and the ST higher-ups will tell you that the books are not canon.

So, let's just say that anything EU cannot overwrite the movies, and the ST books can't override the series/movies (as I'm told that there are a lot of screaming problems with some of the ST books). Another thing is, the OP told us this is Universe Vs. Universe, not Canon Universe Vs. Canon Universe. The only other rule was No Q and no force (which is silly, because you can't have Star Wars without the Force).

He also considers the original series to NOT be canon.


Let me make sure of what you are saying, you say that the original Star Trek, Enterprise 1701, crewed by Kirk, Spock, etc are considered not canon by Gene Roddenberry. If that is what you are saying, you are full of something that smells very bad. Because if the ORIGINAL Star Trek isn't canon ... then how could any of it be canon. The truth is all the series ( non cartoon ) and movies are canon ... period.

I can see where you could make the argument that gene Roddenberry didn't consider the original series canon, because he was forced to do so many things by the limits of budget time and nbc breathing down his neck. And even thought it is also said that star trek: the next generation was the first time he was actually allowed to do what he wanted, i agree that all tv shows INCLUDING the original series(but not cartoons) and all movies should be canon and nothing else!

Call me crazy all you want, this comes from the head licensee of paramount.


Another thing that makes canon a little confusing. Gene R. himself had a habit of decanonizing things. He didn't like the way the animated series turned out, so he proclaimed that it was NOT CANON. He also didn't like a lot of the movies. So he didn't much consider them canon either. And—okay, I'm really going to scare you with this one-after he got TNG going, he .. well .. he sort of decided that some of the Original Series wasn't canon either. I had a discussion with him once, where I cited a couple things that were very clearly canon in the Original Series, and he told me that he didn't think that way anymore, and that he now thought of TNG as canon wherever there was conflict between the two. He admitted it was revisionist thinking, but so be it.


Don't beleive me? This was part of a post by Paula Block herself on TrekBBS, here's a .PDF file with the whole topic, including the mentioned post.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/TrekBBS-2.pdf

Assuming the thread still exists, I need to register for the site and track it down and give you a direct link.

http://picard.ytmnd.com/
this is canon also

Call me crazy all you want, this comes from the head licensee of paramount.



Don't beleive me? This was part of a post by Paula Block herself on TrekBBS, here's a .PDF file with the whole topic, including the mentioned post.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/TrekBBS-2.pdf

Assuming the thread still exists, I need to register for the site and track it down and give you a direct link.

Here's the thing: Gene Roddenberry does not decide Star Trek canon and hasn't since he died in 1991, if he ever even DID truly decide it. Paramount decides Star Trek canon...or did till that bloody split-up with CBS taking the series'.

LucasFilms decides canon for Star Wars, and LucasFilms listens to Lucas himself for canon. Lucas has stated the EU is a separate universe.

Now, see my point here? You can't weasel out of it without looking like what you are: a foolish EU completionist who cannot stand the fact that using purely canon materials his universe loses. Face it.

Aww, you left out the rest of the song xD

Picard: "He just kept talking in one long incredibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic so that no one had the chance to interrupt it was really quite hypnotic."

Picard: This is becoming a speech
Troy: Your the captain sir, your entitled.
Picard: Hmm... I'm entitled to ramble on about something everyone knows.

Those are the best lines of the song, there's still some more amusing stuff.

If your really bored, here's the link to download said song: http://tborgax.homepage.dk/audio.html

hahahaa i have never heard the full song

its great :D

Here's the thing: Gene Roddenberry does not decide Star Trek canon and hasn't since he died in 1991, if he ever even DID truly decide it. Paramount decides Star Trek canon...or did till that bloody split-up with CBS taking the series'.

I never said this was still true. I also pointed out a ST staffie had one of the ST books relating to Voyager as canon. When said staffie left, said book was never used again as a guide for Voyager and was ignored entirely

LucasFilms decides canon for Star Wars, and LucasFilms listens to Lucas himself for canon. Lucas has stated the EU is a separate universe.

He also says that the EU INTRUDES BETWEEN his movies while stating it's parallel. Use the full qoute.

Now, see my point here? You can't weasel out of it without looking like what you are: a foolish EU completionist who cannot stand the fact that using purely canon materials his universe loses. Face it.

The EU is mostly all the stuff that the movies leave out. All the events happening at the same time during the movies that were not shown in them is what the EU is mostly all about. So, according to your logic, what if we saw a movie about World War 2 that was historicly correct, but only showed the American conflicts? And, at the same time, the only thing that we hear about the rest of the war are in books. Let's also say these are the only things we have about WW2. In this case, the American battles are the Star Wars movies, and everything else is the EU. Again, following your logic, the rest of WW2 does NOT exist. One more time, the EU covers what the movies do not tell you.

Even WITHOUT the EU, Star Wars still wins.

He also says that the EU INTRUDES BETWEEN his movies while stating it's parallel. Use the full qoute.
He also said that the EU is like Star Trek's books, ala a paraelle universe.

They aren't HIS SW and since Lucas is God...

However, the Conitnuity editors (which might as well be the 'canon' editors) state this:

"Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology."

And here's the full George quote

"There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] THEY DO INTRUDE IN BETWEEN THE MOVIES. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe." (emphasis added)

THEY DO INTRUDE BETWEEN THE MOVIES, how can you confuse exactly what he said? He's actually saying that the official material is valid for all points in the Star Wars timeline other than the movies themselves! He could also be referring to different department.

Good old George says that the movies are a SELECT PERIOD of time. THEREFORE, the EU is STILL the rest of the Star Wars universe.

"There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, THEY DO INTRUDE IN BETWEEN THE MOVIES. I don't get too involved in the [b]parallel universe."


Bold is my emphasis. He says parallel universe, as in, not the same universe.

Right, they intrude between the movies, much like fanfiction of lots of other series' also intrude between various episodes. That doesn't make them part of the canon. All it means is that in the EU universe, the movie events also occur and that some EU events occur between the incarnations of the movies IN THAT UNIVERSE. That's what the whole PARALLEL UNIVERSE part is about. How hard is that to understand?

However, the Conitnuity editors (which might as well be the 'canon' editors) state this:

"Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology."

And here's the full George quote

"There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] THEY DO INTRUDE IN BETWEEN THE MOVIES. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe." (emphasis added)

THEY DO INTRUDE BETWEEN THE MOVIES, how can you confuse exactly what he said? He's actually saying that the official material is valid for all points in the Star Wars timeline other than the movies themselves! He could also be referring to different department.

Good old George says that the movies are a SELECT PERIOD of time. THEREFORE, the EU is STILL the rest of the Star Wars universe.
Good old George also said:

I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
(Emphasis mine)

That was 2005, not if you have a quote that corrects that or takes it in a new direction, George Lucas seems to be pretty blantent that EU is not in his universe, it is in another, just like the Trek books happen in another universe as well.

Bold is my emphasis. He says parallel universe, as in, not the same universe.

Again, if you apply the logic that nothing else other than the movies occur, than what tells you when and where any of the SSDs were contructed, when and how they created the death star, when and how the Mon Calamari entered the fighting, when, why, and how the rebels left Yavin IV

Here's a good example of Movies Vs Expanded Universe, straight from the star wars database.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/superstardestroyer/

The section known as 'The Movies' tells you what the SSD class did in the movies. While the EU tells you how many weapons it has, when the first was created, how many there are, what i can carry, and etc.

Without this section of the EU, we couldn't use SSDs outside of the moves. without the EU, the Executor wouldn't have arrived at Yavin IV to destroy the rebels after the death star was destroyed. Without the EU, this event didn't happen.

Are you getting my point yet? Or say I repeat myself 500 times?

Again, if you apply the logic that nothing else other than the movies occur, than what tells you when and where any of the SSDs were contructed, when and how they created the death star, when and how the Mon Calamari entered the fighting, when, why, and how the rebels left Yavin IV

Here's a good example of Movies Vs Expanded Universe, straight from the star wars database.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/superstardestroyer/

The section known as 'The Movies' tells you what the SSD class did in the movies. While the EU tells you how many weapons it has, when the first was created, how many there are, what i can carry, and etc.

Without this section of the EU, we couldn't use SSDs outside of the moves. without the EU, the Executor wouldn't have arrived at Yavin IV to destroy the rebels after the death star was destroyed. Without the EU, this event didn't happen.

Are you getting my point yet? Or say I repeat myself 500 times?
The event didn't happen. Just like there are numerous stories about the end of the 5 year mission. We KNOW Kirk and crew went back to Earth. We KNOW the Enterprise was refitted to the movie configuration. We KNOW Captain Decker was hand picked by Kirk to oversee the refit when he was promoted to admiral, BUT, and here's the thing, it AIN'T canon until it appears on screen somewhere.

It doesn't matter if those novels mesh with the 'real' universe well, they are still not canon and never will be.

Or, again, how did Darth Vader lose his right hand?

Again, if you apply the logic that nothing else other than the movies occur, than what tells you when and where any of the SSDs were contructed, when and how they created the death star, when and how the Mon Calamari entered the fighting, when, why, and how the rebels left Yavin IV

Here's a good example of Movies Vs Expanded Universe, straight from the star wars database.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/superstardestroyer/

The section known as 'The Movies' tells you what the SSD class did in the movies. While the EU tells you how many weapons it has, when the first was created, how many there are, what i can carry, and etc.

Without this section of the EU, we couldn't use SSDs outside of the moves. without the EU, the Executor wouldn't have arrived at Yavin IV to destroy the rebels after the death star was destroyed. Without the EU, this event didn't happen.

Are you getting my point yet? Or say I repeat myself 500 times?

For the purposes of the movies, we don't need to know that stuff. Sure, it's interesting, but its not vital. And it's not canon as it's not in the movies. Interesting and cool, but not canon (Which is a shame, because I love Wedge Antilles and Rogue Squadron).

*sigh* Didn't happen?

Well, if that didn't happen, then the Rebels didn't have to leave Yavin. If the EU 'didn't happen' than the Executor wouldn't exist because it was 'never built' at Fondor.

Also, the EU tells you how exactly spies took the Death Star plans. According to your logic, since this 'didn't happen' the Death Star plans were MAGICALLY stolen by the Rebels.

While 'interesting information' isn't vital, IT'S STILL THERE.

Again, if you apply the logic that nothing else other than the movies occur, than what tells you when and where any of the SSDs were contructed, when and how they created the death star, when and how the Mon Calamari entered the fighting, when, why, and how the rebels left Yavin IV

Here's a good example of Movies Vs Expanded Universe, straight from the star wars database.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/superstardestroyer/

The section known as 'The Movies' tells you what the SSD class did in the movies. While the EU tells you how many weapons it has, when the first was created, how many there are, what i can carry, and etc.

Without this section of the EU, we couldn't use SSDs outside of the moves. without the EU, the Executor wouldn't have arrived at Yavin IV to destroy the rebels after the death star was destroyed. Without the EU, this event didn't happen.

Are you getting my point yet? Or say I repeat myself 500 times?
Okay, so let's use your logic on this point, then:

The Enterprise-D nor any other Enterprise was ever constructed as we never see this happen during any series/movie. Humanity never evolved on Earth; the Klingons didn't build the experimental bird of prey that could fire while cloaked; the Remans didn't build the Scimitar or take over Romulus; the Borg never assimilated the millions of worlds they have, and so on and so forth.

In other words, your logic is ridiculous. Obviously various ships and whatnot were built and other events did occur in-between the various movies, but that does not make the EU canon. That's ridiculous and you know it. Even if that might possibly render some of the EU canon, you're talking about story events, not reference books such as Saxton's works, which I think are the things you really want canon anyway, right?

Oh, and don't forget about all of the EU stuff that makes Star Wars look even worse. I think good old Darkstar has that on his website, somewhere, right?
Oh, here it is:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/STSWObsid-Order.html

You want to render the EU canon? Then you have huge amounts of conflicting data everywhere, especially with some of the super-early books written inbetween the original movie productions that contradict the movies themselves! The EU cannot be canon.

*sigh* Didn't happen?

Well, if that didn't happen, then the Rebels didn't have to leave Yavin. If the EU 'didn't happen' than the Executor wouldn't exist because it was 'never built' at Fondor.

Also, the EU tells you how exactly spies took the Death Star plans. According to your logic, since this 'didn't happen' the Death Star plans were MAGICALLY stolen by the Rebels.

While 'interesting information' isn't vital, IT'S STILL THERE.

Well, obviously they were built as they appear on-screen and the characters interact with them. The Executor was built, but for all intents and purposes (if we go by merely the movies) then we don't know where. We also know that, according to movie canon, the rebels stole the Death Star plans in a battle, somewhere. We don't see it, but we are provided the information on-screen. So yes, for all intents and purposes the plans were magically stolen by rebels. ;)

And yes, it's there, but not canon.

You have to admit that there are actions going on in the background right? Everything does not 'magically' end up in the correct place. The stuff in the background is EU, since it's in the background, it's STILL the star wars universe. So if the EU isn't canon, than these events in the background do not exist.

*sigh* Didn't happen?

Well, if that didn't happen, then the Rebels didn't have to leave Yavin. If the EU 'didn't happen' than the Executor wouldn't exist because it was 'never built' at Fondor.

Also, the EU tells you how exactly spies took the Death Star plans. According to your logic, since this 'didn't happen' the Death Star plans were MAGICALLY stolen by the Rebels.

While 'interesting information' isn't vital, IT'S STILL THERE.
Unless it was mentioned, yes. We can speculate, but we cannot say that, "YES! The rebels were forced to leave Yavin IV at this time and because of these reasons!" because (and this is the important part) George Lucas might go back and say it happened differently. The events are speculation, nothing more.

Perfect example of this is Darth Vader's right hand. We know, from Jedi, that Vader doesn't HAVE a right hand. For years the EU confidently stated that said hand was removed by the Emperor because he lost the first Death Star. That was stated in I don't know how many books. But...

Opps, George Lucas made Ep II and Anakin Skywalker lost that hand to Dooku.

Oh dear, EU was very, very wrong. All those books are screwed.

And don't get me started with the Sith showing up again.

They never happened, they are tales that explain what might have happened, but they cannot be counted on because unless George Lucas wrote it, it didn't happen.

You have to admit that there are actions going on in the background right? Everything does not 'magically' end up in the correct place. The stuff in the background is EU, since it's in the background, it's STILL the star wars universe. So if the EU isn't canon, than these events in the background do not exist.

No, there is a background, but we don't see it happening. The EU is speculation on what might've been happening or what could've happened. It is not the background to the movies. As GL said, the EU is parallel, not the same.

You have to admit that there are actions going on in the background right? Everything does not 'magically' end up in the correct place. The stuff in the background is EU, since it's in the background, it's STILL the star wars universe. So if the EU isn't canon, than these events in the background do not exist.

Circular logic. Yes, events occur in the backround, but just because the EU covers some of those events does not render the EU canon. The EU is merely one interpretation of those events. I could write a little fanfic about how the Executor was built on Bespin using R2-D2 clones. Would that suddenly become canon? No, and you know it.

I ask why you repeatedly ignore the parallel universe part of the quote. What is your answer to it?

You have to admit that there are actions going on in the background right? Everything does not 'magically' end up in the correct place. The stuff in the background is EU, since it's in the background, it's STILL the star wars universe. So if the EU isn't canon, than these events in the background do not exist.
You're missing the point. The films are canon. HOW they end up on the film may be a tale or two, but we simply don't know how it happened. We don't know if the legion that was waiting on the Forest Moon stopped for a pizza and a few beers on the way in, or if the EU is right about it. We don't know if Luke and Vader faced each other before Empire, they may have, but Luke could have just called him up on the holocron and flipped Vader off.

Until it's stated BY Lucas at this point, it just isn't canon. You can't take it as gospel.

However, if events change after an EU book was written by the movies, than the movies overwrite whatever the hell the books say. Because they are secondary canon. I never said the EU overwrites the movies.

AND, each one of these books usually HAVE to talk to Lucas Films, Lucas Arts, or Lucas Books before it comes out! These guys speak FOR Lucas, just because he doesn't dabble in EU does not mean EU doesn't exist AT ALL.

Also, my answer to the parallel quote, since your brining it up again. Is that the calls 'his world' the movies, and anything relating to licensing he refers to as 'another universe.' and by saying it intrudes on his world says it happens while the movie is happening. Not everyone in the Empire is caring about the Rebels. Some care about building more ISDs, research, things going on about other planets, etc.

So, I say this again, If all we had about WW2 was a movie about all the American battles, and books about everything else (written by people who had to get through the Movie guys first). If we apply your current logic to this situation, you are pretty much saying that anything not mentioned by the WW2 American battles do no exist. Which would say things like, the Germans never attempted to invade Russia, any fighting in the Middle-east and Africa didn't happen, and Japan didn't do anything until they attacked the US.

Do you see MY point?

The entire galaxy did NOT stand still while the Empire were fighting the rebels.

And since we've gone so far off topic, I may remind all that this is Universe vs. Universe, not 'What's canon and what's not', and in the case of universe vs. universe, Star Wars will win.

((adding on to my previous post, anything I make after this one will direct to any replies between this post and my last one.))

And since, apparently, Darkstar knows more about SW and ST than the staff of ST and SW, we're allowed to argue about that.

It's been proven consistently that Darkstar has little or no idea what he's talking about as far as a few things are concerned.

I mean, look at this:

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/hate/darkstardatabase.html#aholecanon1

Then you're a fucking moron. Simple as that.

Canon = Real STAR WARS.

Real STAR WARS = Canon.

"The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history ..."

How can the history not be considered part of STAR WARS?

EVERY piece of published STAR WARS fiction is a window into the 'real' STAR WARS universe.

The people writing the material were given the specific mandate to expand STAR WARS reality.

The STAR WARS Encyclopedia states that the movies, novelizations, scripts and radio dramas are canon. Everything else is quasi-canon.

Anything else? That's convinced everyone else except one notable supreme moron.


This is from ASVS, where someone replied to one of Darkstar's posts.

Darkstar debating with Wong:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.startrek.vs.starwars/browse_thread/thread/3c6ca042d5068be5/85f1c5c03353b8d3?lnk=gst&q=darkstar+Curtis+Saxton+continuity&rnum=3#85f1c5c03353b8d3

and the idea that 'Darkstar' is unbiased is crazy, he's biased towards his own opinions.

However, if events change after an EU book was written by the movies, than the movies overwrite whatever the hell the books say. Because they are secondary canon. I never said the EU overwrites the movies.

There is no such thing as secondary canon. Either it is canon or it isn't, and you're picking and choosing. If the EU is canon, it's ALL canon, or NONE of it is canon. You can't pick and choose. Again, I point out that there are scores of conflicting information in the EU itself.

AND, each one of these books usually HAVE to talk to Lucas Films, Lucas Arts, or Lucas Books before it comes out! These guys speak FOR Lucas, just because he doesn't dabble in EU does not mean EU doesn't exist AT ALL.
They do not speak for Lucas. He says it is a parallel universe and that he does not dabble in it. The EU does exist, but it is a parallel universe to his own universe.

Also, my answer to the parallel quote, since your brining it up again. Is that the calls 'his world' the movies, and anything relating to licensing he refers to as 'another universe.' and by saying it intrudes on his world says it happens while the movie is happening. Not everyone in the Empire is caring about the Rebels. Some care about building more ISDs, research, things going on about other planets, etc.

So, I say this again, If all we had about WW2 was a movie about all the American battles, and books about everything else (written by people who had to get through the Movie guys first). If we apply your current logic to this situation, you are pretty much saying that anything not mentioned by the WW2 American battles do no exist. Which would say things like, the Germans never attempted to invade Russia, any fighting in the Middle-east and Africa didn't happen, and Japan didn't do anything until they attacked the US.

Do you see MY point?

The entire galaxy did NOT stand still while the Empire were fighting the rebels.

No, they didn't, but again you're missing the point. We understand that you're saying there are background events, but the EU is merely one possible interpretation of those events, nothing more. Anyone can reinterpret them. I can write a book and have it published that details the history of the Ewoks evolution from garbage cans, but does that mean Ewoks are garbage cans? No. It's a fanicful interpretation, but not canon.

And since we've gone so far off topic, I may remind all that this is Universe vs. Universe, not 'What's canon and what's not', and in the case of universe vs. universe, Star Wars will win.
The canon debate is the very heart of Star Trek vs. Star Wars. Without determining canon nothing else can be debated. Note our very debate here: we're tossing around evidence left and right, but if that evidence is not canon, it can't be accepted. Without determining what is canon, the entire debate is an exercise in futility.

((adding on to my previous post, anything I make after this one will direct to any replies between this post and my last one.))

And since, apparently, Darkstar knows more about SW and ST than the staff of ST and SW, we're allowed to argue about that.

It's been proven consistently that Darkstar has little or no idea what he's talking about as far as a few things are concerned.

I mean, look at this:

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/hate/darkstardatabase.html#aholecanon1


This is from ASVS, where someone replied to one of Darkstar's posts.

Darkstar debating with Wong:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.startrek.vs.starwars/browse_thread/thread/3c6ca042d5068be5/85f1c5c03353b8d3?lnk=gst&q=darkstar+Curtis+Saxton+continuity&rnum=3#85f1c5c03353b8d3

and the idea that 'Darkstar' is unbiased is crazy, he's biased towards his own opinions.
Darkstar himself does not factor into this debate. These are ad hominem attacks, nothing more. I admit I myself ad hominimed a bit and I apologize for those. Wong and Poe both routinly engage themselves in ad hominem attacks on Darkstar and have otherwise been completely and ridiculously unfair to him, as stated on this page:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWrabidattack.html

Furthermore, I question the dates of anything he said. Note the Google debate seems to be from 2002, a much earlier time from before the Lucas quote stating that the EU is a parallel universe. I have no idea when the Poe quotes came from. Also, I question the out of context usage of these quotes, as Poe and Wong often do.

Frankly, though, none of that has to do with anything we're arguing here. I only bring Darkstar' up as a reference, not to try and use his arguments on everything.

AND, each one of these books usually HAVE to talk to Lucas Films, Lucas Arts, or Lucas Books before it comes out! These guys speak FOR Lucas, just because he doesn't dabble in EU does not mean EU doesn't exist AT ALL.
And each and every Star Trek book HAS to talk to Paramount/CBS (or whoever is holding the copyright these days). We're not saying that the EU doesn't exist, we're just noting that the EU is NOT in Star Wars' universe. It's in ANOTHER universe. George Lucas has said that HIS SW is THE SW. The EU exists somewhere else that does not tread upon HIS SW. It simply is not canon and cannot be taken as such.

Also, my answer to the parallel quote, since your brining it up again. Is that the calls 'his world' the movies, and anything relating to licensing he refers to as 'another universe.' and by saying it intrudes on his world says it happens while the movie is happening. Not everyone in the Empire is caring about the Rebels. Some care about building more ISDs, research, things going on about other planets, etc.
That is streching that quote beyond the breaking point. He is clear that the EU is another universe and that the EU tries to reflect his universe, but goes off in other directions. That's fine and dandy, but we can't take it to mean diddly as unless it is said by the man in the flanel, it hasn't actually happened yet, it is pure speculation.

So, I say this again, If all we had about WW2 was a movie about all the American battles, and books about everything else (written by people who had to get through the Movie guys first). If we apply your current logic to this situation, you are pretty much saying that anything not mentioned by the WW2 American battles do no exist. Which would say things like, the Germans never attempted to invade Russia, any fighting in the Middle-east and Africa didn't happen, and Japan didn't do anything until they attacked the US.
No, THIS would be how the analogy would properly go:
We lose all knowledge of WWII except for a movie. We can only take that movie as a starting point for WWII. That's fine, if that's what we know. We're fairly sure that other things were going on, but we simply don't know unless we have evidence that can be vetted. We can speculate, we can project, but if our only "proof" is that movie, we cannot say that such and such happened, or this and this existed.

A far BETTER analogy would be that we know life HAS to have started sometime. But we cannot (at this point in time) say HOW it started. We can speculate and look for evidence in the current lifeforms on the planet, but no one can say that "Because my book was looked at by God while I was writting it and his people said ok, I can conclusivly state that life started when a time travler dropped his egg salad sandwich in a puddle in whatever BCE".

That's what we're saying, we know that something happened, but the EU cannot be said to be definitive. ONLY George Lucas can claim that.

Do you see MY point?
Do you see ours?

The entire galaxy did NOT stand still while the Empire were fighting the rebels.
We know, but Lucas hasn't gotten around to explaining what was happening during that time. Until he does, we can assume nothing. As far as we know, Palaptine DID order everyone to stand still for a bit in order to make it easier to control them.

And since we've gone so far off topic, I may remind all that this is Universe vs. Universe, not 'What's canon and what's not', and in the case of universe vs. universe, Star Wars will win.
In other words we invoke everything in the Star Wars universe vs everything in the Star Trek universe?
Fine. Star Trek wins. The (insert god race of choice here) just snapped their collective fingers and turned the Star Wars universe into a pot of petunias.

No, they didn't, but again you're missing the point. We understand that you're saying there are background events, but the EU is merely one possible interpretation of those events, nothing more. Anyone can reinterpret them. I can write a book and have it published that details the history of the Ewoks evolution from garbage cans, but does that mean Ewoks are garbage cans? No. It's a fanicful interpretation, but not canon.

Okay... but any interpretation has some amount of truth to it, does it not? You can have several stories about the same thing, and no matter how much any of those stories deviate from the truth, a few things will end up being the same. the EU doesn't overwrite the movies, but they do overwrite anything not mentioned by the movies until the movies cover that topic. I'll also concede slightly by saying that not all of the EU is canon, but some of it is. You can't define everything as 'black and white', there are shades of gray in between. Part of the EU can be canon, but not all of it.

As for Darkstar... Okay then, I won't mention anything else about him unless it has something to do with the quote or if he mis-interpreted something. Although I will mention he creates death threats pointed at him from out of the air. But that's it....

And I suppose I'm wrong, canon has everything to do with a Universe vs. Universe debate. However, It still stands, even if you leave out the EU, that SW has a huge advantage over ST. I'm going to bring up the 'five minutes' from SD.net again, except let's just look at the last section, where we just look at what happens in the movies and shows.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

(SW and ST added)
SW Planetary destruction: Death Star blast (roughly 20 billion trillion megatons, ie- the number "two" followed by 22 zeroes). Planet blown apart at 5% of the speed of light. Even if we assume the shot was time-lapse photography (not that there's any reason to), the absolute lower limit is roughly 50 quadrillion megatons. Note that even if you scale this monster down by a factor of 10 million (to the volume of a Star Destroyer), you'd still have 5 billion megatons. More than a match for poor Enterprise.

ST Planetary destruction: 30-ship bombardment in "The Die is Cast" (surface-level explosions create fireballs in the megaton range at most, judging from fireball duration). No sub-orbital ejecta launched from planet's surface at all. Trekkies attempt to ignore weak-kneed appearance of attack and focus on semantics in order to exaggerate the figure.

SW Asteroid destruction: Jango Fett's seismic charges destroy asteroids in a radius of 5-10 km in AOTC.

ST Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).

SW Combat range: in ROTJ, combat initially occurs at ranges of a few thousands kilometres, eventually closing to a few hundred kilometres ("point blank" according to Lando) until Rebel ships are within a few dozen kilometres of the Executor.

ST Combat range: fleet actions in DS9 uniformly feature engagements at ranges of 5 km or less, just as they do in TNG's Klingon wars or Borg engagements. In "The Die is Cast", Sisko actually orders the Defiant to approach to 500 metres (while taking fire) before shooting at a Jem'Hadar attack ship, presumably due to some disadvantage incurred at longer range. The only long-ranged incidents involve stationary or near-stationary targets.

SW Speed: travel from galactic core systems to outer rim systems ("halfway across the galaxy" as Amidala put it) is shown repeatedly in ANH, TPM, and AOTC. It is invariably same-day traffic, typically a few hours.

ST Speed: Voyager took 7 years to crawl across part of one quadrant of the galaxy, even with repeated assists from alien races, stolen technology, and even the occasional shove from a godlike being. Not hours ... years.

Okay... but any interpretation has some amount of truth to it, does it not? You can have several stories about the same thing, and no matter how much any of those stories deviate from the truth, a few things will end up being the same. the EU doesn't overwrite the movies, but they do overwrite anything not mentioned by the movies until the movies cover that topic. I'll also concede slightly by saying that not all of the EU is canon, but some of it is. You can't define everything as 'black and white', there are shades of gray in between. Part of the EU can be canon, but not all of it.[/url]

So who and what decides what parts of the EU is not canon and what parts are? Mike Wong? You and I both know he'll only pick the absolute best things for Star Wars technology and ignore anything that contradicts it.

No, either the entire EU is canon or none of it is. You can't pick and choose based on your liking, because that IS being biased towards your opinions. We can't pick and choose elements of the movies or the various series' that we don't like, now can we? No, so why should we with the EU?

Again, Lucas does not dabble in it. He is the hard core rock of canon for the Star Wars universe and decides what is canon or is not. He is, in other words, the Star Wars universe God. He says the EU is another universe. End. Of. Story.

As for the five minute essay, I'll bow to NERVUN on that issue, as NERVUN seems to be much better at dissecting specifics than I am.

Okay... but any interpretation has some amount of truth to it, does it not? You can have several stories about the same thing, and no matter how much any of those stories deviate from the truth, a few things will end up being the same. the EU doesn't overwrite the movies, but they do overwrite anything not mentioned by the movies until the movies cover that topic. I'll also concede slightly by saying that not all of the EU is canon, but some of it is. You can't define everything as 'black and white', there are shades of gray in between. Part of the EU can be canon, but not all of it.
*thunk* No, this is not a game of let's pick what we like. Look, I like a lot of the EU. I have read a lot of the comic books, I have worn out copies of the novels from the library (sadly, at the time my budget didn't cover hardbacks), and I have a number of them sitting on my shelf at home. Right now, being in Japan, my EU takes up far more shelf space than my Trek. But I ackowledge that the EU is just licenced fan fiction and nothing more. It's great stories, but at the end of the day they are not telling the "truth" about the SW universe, any more than Paul Bunion stories are telling the truth about being a lumberjack. They just are not part of the main universe as told by George Lucas at this point in time. In the future, Lucas may go back and re-evaluate, at which point, yes. Lucas may die (hope not) and LucasArts as the designated keeper of all things SW may say that it considers the EU canon, again, at which point yes. But right now Lucas has stated they are seperate. That's the end of it unless you ahve a quote from Lucas that states otherwise.

And I suppose I'm wrong, canon has everything to do with a Universe vs. Universe debate. However, It still stands, even if you leave out the EU, that SW has a huge advantage over ST. I'm going to bring up the 'five minutes' from SD.net again, except let's just look at the last section, where we just look at what happens in the movies and shows.
That's SW vs the Federation, major difference there. BTW, in terms of speed, the Enterprise D managed to pass though a couple of galaxies within minutes. I believe she holds the speed record.

Everyone always insists on thinking solely in terms of which fleet is more powerful. Pretty much all SW ground forces and planetary assault forces are more powerful. They possess superior small craft, and if you consider all factions fighting, then they have much more shipping and merc vessels. The borg cutting laser can get through ST shields, but SW shields have different properties + ray shields. SW has enough droids that they could easily create a large fighting force to fight the borg. This does not take into account two things. One, that star wars occurs "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" and star trek occurs in the future. This means that if they did clash, the star wars universe would be technologically superior by far. Two, the logistics of it, we dont know exactly how many forces are on each side. evenly matched, SW wins, but have you seen unimatrix 0? Its huge. The borg occupy massive amounts of space.

That's SW vs the Federation, major difference there. BTW, in terms of speed, the Enterprise D managed to pass though a couple of galaxies within minutes. I believe she holds the speed record.
That was thanks to intervention by the Traveler and was most certainly not typical, speed-wise, and since we're counting out intervention by Q and other similarly powerful beings--and that includes Wesley after he joins the Traveler to learn about various Traveler-style manipulations--we can't consider it.

That was thanks to intervention by the Traveler and was most certainly not typical, speed-wise, and since we're counting out intervention by Q and other similarly powerful beings--and that includes Wesley after he joins the Traveler to learn about various Traveler-style manipulations--we can't consider it.
We were just told no Q, not no gods.

*sighs* Look people, this argument is never going to get anywhere. Trek always pulls a rabbit out of its hat and Wars is full of Jedi mind tricks. Why? Because they're STORIES. There's no real way to say "This is the usual" because we've never seen it, we've only seen stuff that makes the good guys look like heros.

I mean, be honest. If we're going to use the on screen stuff every single damn ship in the Trek universe that ISN'T named 'Enterprise' will blow up. ANY shot they take will drain the Enterprise's shields by 50% until they blow up.

EVERY single Stormtrooper can't hit the broad side of a barn, EVER. The mechanical dohickies that can withstand blaster fire and extream cold can be taken out by a bunch of tree trunks!

Face it, the "average" for both series are pathetic. The Imperial Navy can't win battles or shoot down a guy who has never flown in space before, and the Jedi can get killed by the most unbelievable of events. Starfleet loses ships when someone sneezes and bad guys that took out 39 ships in one go get their collective (heh) asses handed to them by a scoutship that carries less weapons than anything they have previously faced.

We're just going to be going around and around in circles for ever with this because we both can come up with example after example.

We're just going to be going around and around in circles for ever with this because we both can come up with example after example.

...but...it's fun to debate!

Alright, I suppose you have a point. We should just put it aside. Neither Trek nor Wars has enough internal consistancy in order to make this an actual debate worth debating.

Now, Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross...THERE'S something with internal consistancy like you wouldn't believe. Much easier to debate issues there.

...but...it's fun to debate!

Alright, I suppose you have a point. We should just put it aside. Neither Trek nor Wars has enough internal consistancy in order to make this an actual debate worth debating.
Actually, I am hijacking this thread right now. No one try anything funny, ya see?

New debate, ST vs SW, which one is the better story teller?

Ok, now THIS is a STvsSW debate that can actually get somewhere.

Actually, I am hijacking this thread right now. No one try anything funny, ya see?

New debate, ST vs SW, which one is the better story teller?

Ok, now THIS is a STvsSW debate that can actually get somewhere.

Star Trek can tell a wide variety of stories from an equally wide variety of viewpoints. Consider stories with such moral ramifications as "The Inner Light" or "The Measure of a Man." Star Wars fails horribly on even the most basic of themes, romanticism. The Padme and Anikan relationship, for instance, was done extremely poorly, to the point of snapping the thread holding up my suspension of disbelief like a piano floating over a sidewalk.

I'd love to be there when the Borg transport themselves onto a Trade Federation droid control ship and realize it is not filled with unwilling organic recruits but with Battle droids, Super Battle droids and Droidekas, far more mobile and better armed then they themselves are. A great "Oops"-moment. (for the record, even if they do adapt to the various blasters, lasers and disruptors, (unlikely, since they are very different to phasers and not just a case of flipping a swith to up the shields a little bit and tune in to their frequency) SBDs (and even regular battle droids) are shown to be capable of melee combat. In other words, Borg be screwed...)

Star Trek can tell a wide variety of stories from an equally wide variety of viewpoints. Consider stories with such moral ramifications as "The Inner Light" or "The Measure of a Man." Star Wars fails horribly on even the most basic of themes, romanticism. The Padme and Anikan relationship, for instance, was done extremely poorly, to the point of snapping the thread holding up my suspension of disbelief like a piano floating over a sidewalk.
Romanticism isn't necessarily the most basic of themes, is it?

I thought Star Wars did an excellent job showing the decline of a democratic system into a dictatorship, for example. One presumes that Star Trek will be able to tell a lot more stories from many more viewpoints when it has so much more running time in its loads of episodes than Star Wars...

going entirely on the basis of suspension of disbelief, as is my inclination to do. both are severly lacking in signiffigant areas. differing mainly in which of these.

both suffer from a too human dominated universe. b5's context and premiss is, to me, much more convincing then either of them.

i guess i'm spoiled by reading too much REAL (i.e. litterary and litterate) science fiction.

of course both are/were better then cattle car bad actica, then i suppose that's like a fart in church to even mention.

even the fantasy world of dark crystal was more convincing for its alienness then either of them.

=^^=
.../\...

I'd love to be there when the Borg transport themselves onto a Trade Federation droid control ship and realize it is not filled with unwilling organic recruits but with Battle droids, Super Battle droids and Droidekas, far more mobile and better armed then they themselves are. A great "Oops"-moment. (for the record, even if they do adapt to the various blasters, lasers and disruptors, (unlikely, since they are very different to phasers and not just a case of flipping a swith to up the shields a little bit and tune in to their frequency) SBDs (and even regular battle droids) are shown to be capable of melee combat. In other words, Borg be screwed...)

Not really. Borg are shown to be capable of subverting ship systems and hack into control protocols. It's possible that they could simply seize control of the entire droid army.

Sith, did u see that in the original post?

I certainly did, and the point I was making is that all these factions would not ally, but instead wage their own war effort instead of a unified effort. The Borg would attempt to destroy the Federation and everyone else, the Cardassians would hate the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, the Federation and vice versa. The Kazon and Vedeeans would continue to fight each other while fighting the empire, while the empire has a mere rebel alliance to deal with. And since the force is not an issue, and since the empire is a vast unified military machine with no Jedi to deal with, then it's easy to point out and assume, that the Milky Way would be splintered.

Everyone thinks that Star wars would actually fight star trek. if you include Episodes I-III then this is more likely to happen.

THe Emperor sends in spies, and sets up a war between the federation and (insert species here). After a while when the federation is loosing (watch TNS and DS9, they would take heavy losses), the empire would come in to save them. The empire will be seen as heroes, thus gaining the favor of the federation. The Empire would soon join the federation council, and over time slowly corrupt the Federation council to being subserviant to the Empire.

Then the Empire would move on to the next species. The war would not be between Star Wars vs. star trek, it would be Star trek, vs star trek, with the empire saving them, and helping them to form a "Safe and secure society." The empire would win with minimum losses, while the alpha quadrant would burn from it's own hatred and divisions. You do not gain millions of member worlds by blowing the crap out of them.

BTW Vader is the borg god. :) Look at it this way, are they going to threaten to turn Vader into a half man half machine, oh no... :)

I certainly did, and the point I was making is that all these factions would not ally, but instead wage their own war effort instead of a unified effort. The Borg would attempt to destroy the Federation and everyone else, the Cardassians would hate the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, the Federation and vice versa. The Kazon and Vedeeans would continue to fight each other while fighting the empire, while the empire has a mere rebel alliance to deal with. And since the force is not an issue, and since the empire is a vast unified military machine with no Jedi to deal with, then it's easy to point out and assume, that the Milky Way would be splintered.

That is also a good possibility.

New debate, ST vs SW, which one is the better story teller?


I was going to concede my point too... *shrugs* Ah well...

In this case, if we include Episodes I, II, and III in Star Wars (As much as we have to), and since EU isn't canon, than we have terrible story-telling past the massive battles of the prequel trilogies. However, if we ignore the weakest part of the dual trilogies (which we, sadly, can't) than we see something better than blatant special effects that are 'supposed' to distract us from the terrible dialogs on-screen

Let's just face it, as far as romance is concerned, Lucas has recently been an idiot. ROTS left a bad taste in my mouth. TESB, and ROTJ were so good because he had the help of other writers, which he foolishly ignored when creating the latest movies. And, since we have just movies, there's a lot less to go with.

As opposed to ST, which has several series already, a LOT of information to shift through, and so on. There are also a few of the movies.

However, most of this series have to do with one enterprise or another, or focus on one ship or station. It's pretty limited in that respect. Not only that, but I'm sure there are a few movies that suck. Although I haven't found one yet O.o *coughs*. Also, the various ST episodes usually have diffrent writers.

Although I may mention ST uses a lot of technobabble to slip through the cracks in some episodes, and the various ship captains pull off the 'impossible' and slink through the cracks through the use of various plot devices, which seem to be missing in SW.

Gasp! Me supporting Star Trek? : P

. Not only that, but I'm sure there are a few movies that suck. Although I haven't found one yet O.o *coughs


Watch Generations, Nemisis, and the Undiscovered Country, and of course The fourth startrek movie (whic hwas the worse)

lets go back in time and save earth by beaming a killer whale onboard a klingon bird of prey and sending it to the future. It was basically back to the future meets the discovery channel.

Well, I probably need to watch those movies again. Since usually (with me anyway) the first time I watch a movie, it's always cool because it's something new (Although some I say suck right off the bat). Another thing is there are few movies I'll watch a second time, unless I'm forced to.

I didn't see Undiscovered Country, so I'll take your word for it (much like I accept that Alien 3 sucks, even thought I haven't seen it, but what I've read of the plot is strange). Also, since I don't consider it a good part of my life to watch those movies again, I suppose I wouldn't call those 'great' either. Those also include some of the most silliest ST plot devices, such as the Time Travel one which was also abused in an episode of TOS, and I'm sure some other time stream silliness occurred in TNG (like the episode where whenever the Enterprise explodes, the episode 'starts over' and it becomes a race of who is paying attention enough to know the death of the Enterprise is going to happen, and how to stop it happening before the episode restarts).

But Back To the Future + The Discovery channel would be interesting, but the fourth movie (whatever it's called) does it wrong.

That is also a good possibility.

I can guarantee all the factions of ST would ally. All they have to do is have Elim Garak cause a few accidents and blame some SW faction. He got the Romulans to ally with the Federation and Klingons during the Dominion War, didn't he?

I can guarantee all the factions of ST would ally. All they have to do is have Elim Garak cause a few accidents and blame some SW faction. He got the Romulans to ally with the Federation and Klingons during the Dominion War, didn't he?

But would the Dominion really itself with cardasia? The Federation with the Borg? The Borg with Species 8795 (or whatever number it is?) You mean to say that none of the Star Trek races would see the empire coming in as an oppritunity to advance their own wills, especially since certain members would be distracted.

Again though the Empire is not stupid enough to start a war with people they do not know, I still think the empire would win by out manuvering the Alpha Quadrant.

But would the Dominion really itself with cardasia? The Federation with the Borg? The Borg with Species 8795 (or whatever number it is?) You mean to say that none of the Star Trek races would see the empire coming in as an oppritunity to advance their own wills, especially since certain members would be distracted.

Again though the Empire is not stupid enough to start a war with people they do not know, I still think the empire would win by out manuvering the Alpha Quadrant.

I think that most of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers would ally with each other to fight the Empire (They did it against the Dominion). The Borg are another matter entirely.

As for the super-fast hyperdrive mentioned by some:

You need navigational information, which the Empire doesn't have.

It would actually be pretty simple for Star Trek to pwn Star Wars.

They travel back in time in Star Trek so often, it's like taking a bus.

Go back in time, smother the Emperor in his cradle, etc. Game over.

But would the Dominion really itself with cardasia? The Federation with the Borg? The Borg with Species 8795 (or whatever number it is?) You mean to say that none of the Star Trek races would see the empire coming in as an oppritunity to advance their own wills, especially since certain members would be distracted.

Again though the Empire is not stupid enough to start a war with people they do not know, I still think the empire would win by out manuvering the Alpha Quadrant.
If it came to survival of them all, I do think the Dominion would ally itself with Cardassia and the other Alpha and Beta Quadrent powers. Remember that Odo seriously changed the Changelings viewpoint of "solids" so the Dominion is not exactly the military dictatorship it was before the end of the war.

I do, however, agree with you when it comes to the Borg, the Kazon, the Vidiians, and Species 8472. I don't see the Borg allying with the Federation anytime soon, especially considering just how badly they were crippled by Voyager in "Endgame." Unimatrix Zero on the other hand...

Eve: That's cheating, and the Federation doesn't cheat like that.

Kilani: That's true, they do need navigational information. That is probably also true of Star Trek's warp drive. Since it's a manipulation of space-time around the vessel, they'd need to know everything about where they're going and where they are in order to go as fast as possible, or otherwise they'd have to go more slowly in order to ensure they don't screw it up somehow. That's why they are able to cross 35,000 light years in a few weeks in "The Chase" while Voyager requires seventy years to cross twice that distance. Or at least that's one theory, albiet the one with the most logic.

As for the super-fast hyperdrive mentioned by some:
You need navigational information, which the Empire doesn't have.

Scout droids anyone? Spies?
Each side woud have to use those to get the nav infos neither of them has.

By the way if you remove the Force from the scenario don't count on the Rebellion to do your dirty work. Without the Force no Luke Skywalker and no Obi Wan Kenobi -> nobody saves Leia Organa recovering the Death Star plans. Without the Force Luke could not blow up the Death Star either so... Bye bye Yavin.

Many SW fans argue their ships are faster. This is simply not the case. The only onscreen reference to speed told us that the Millenium Falcon (fastest ship in SW) had a top speed of 1.5 c. Even the old NX class could run circles around that at 140.6c. There is also the fact that the Borg have Transwarp capabilities, which give them almost infinite speed.

Perhaps the reason why the Falcon can quickly transverse the galaxy is that the SW galaxy is much smaller than the Milky Way. It's a definite possibility since galaxies definitely have a large variance when it comes to their sizes. Scientists have actually discovered real galaxies only 1/100 the size of the Milky Way.

Even at sub-light speed, ST ships are faster. SW ships have weak ion engines. Compare that to ST impulse drives. Even in TMP, the Enterprise achieved a speed of .5c under impulse alone. By TNG era they could go .75c under impulse.

1: The 1.5 was never given a corresponding speed number. Simply stating that it "can go 1.5 past lightspeed" could mean literally anything. Either the galaxy in Star Wars is rather small, or the Falcon is unbelievably fast... I'll have to put my money on the latter, as the Galactic Empire has "conquered over a million systems", and still controls very little of the galaxy itself. Of course, that still leaves the speed of the Falcon up in the air, because even smaller galaxies still have well over a hundred million stars. Of course, one can never be sure, so it's best to leave this matter alone at the moment.

2: Read above.

3: Star Trek vessels are definitely much faster in sub-light travel. According to the Tie Fighter Pilot's Manual, the X-Wing has a sub-light speed of 100 MGLT, which is around 1,350 MP/H, very close to the top speed of an F-16C Fighting Falcon. And the X-Wing is one of the fastest.

Red Dwarf kicks both of their asses. Bazookoids, nanobots and the Holly Hop Drive!

Not forgetting the might of the NORWEB federation (North Western Electricity board)

I can guarantee all the factions of ST would ally. All they have to do is have Elim Garak cause a few accidents and blame some SW faction. He got the Romulans to ally with the Federation and Klingons during the Dominion War, didn't he?

If that was meant as humour I didn't detect it lol.

But if it were serious, I say absolute rubbish lol. The Milky Way is filled with so many species that hate each other, filled with so much detest for one another, For one the Klingons and Romulans would never ally with the Dominion not after such a disasterous war. The Cardassians would never ally with the Dominion and would oppose such action eternally.

The Breen would never ally with the Federation, I think we've seen they have some issues with the red shirts. The Ferrengi, would probably ally itself with the empire, lusting over a possible new Galaxy in which to open markets to, not to mention they can be bribed very easily....

It goes on a bit, but you get the general idea.

I bring in one point.... Time travel. Star Wars was "A long time ago"... So are they time travelling, or is Star Trek fighting thousands of years of technology after the movies/books....

But I go for Star Wars either way. Death Stars, and cloning. Not to mention if all fails just let the gungans annoy them to death.

*is not really trying*

Given that they are separate universes, the timeframe may be exact, in that "a long time ago" is the same time as the 24th century when it comes to comparing the two universes timelines. In other words we ignore this because it's an unnecssary detail.