NationStates Jolt Archive

So you would teach a child by calling them names, rather than trying to teach them?

Some shitty teacher you are, eh?

Hey, you told him it was okay to kill animals because people are starving in Africa.

And when he tortures kittens, you can tell him it's okay because of pollution.

And when he murders someone, you can tell him it's okay because the Patriot Act exists.

You aren't here to judge, remember?

Some shitty facade YOU put on, 'eh?

Wow, are you guys done measuring dick-sizes regarding the amount of charity work you do or don't do? KSP, stop whining. Neesika, Arthais, why do you feel the need to justify the amount of charity work that you do or don't do on an internet forum to somebody that you have already labeled-- quite unscientifically, I might add-- a sociopath?

No one is whining. I'm trying to have a reasonable debate.

Wow, are you guys done measuring dick-sizes regarding the amount of charity work you do or don't do? KSP, stop whining. Neesika, Arthais, why do you feel the need to justify the amount of charity work that you do or don't do on an internet forum to somebody that you have already labeled-- quite unscientifically, I might add-- a sociopath?

I think there is a difference between causing problems. (killing animals)
And not solving problems. (Not protesting animal abuse)

we're not trying to TEACH him anything. He asked us for our opinions, we gave them to him. In neesika's opinion, he's a twat.

Again, what's the problem? If he doesn't like hearing our opinions, he shouldn't have asked.


So either you were doing your adult duty, which you said was to tell him he had done wrong, and therefore acting as a moral advisor and teacher, or you were attacking him. Which is it?

No one is whining. I'm trying to have a reasonable debate.

you have never once on these forums attempted to have a reasonable debate. Some of us just recognize you when you show up and don't attempt to have any with you, since we've already tried that method.

Wow, are you guys done measuring dick-sizes regarding the amount of charity work you do or don't do? KSP, stop whining. Neesika, Arthais, why do you feel the need to justify the amount of charity work that you do or don't do on an internet forum to somebody that you have already labeled-- quite unscientifically, I might add-- a sociopath?

Jesus Christ people, get it right! The term I used, quite scientifically thank you, was TWAT. Not sociopath.

So either you were doing your adult duty, which you said was to tell him he had done wrong, and therefore acting as a moral advisor and teacher, or you were attacking him. Which is it?

I was attacking him, duh.

I was attacking him because he did a stupid, disgusting, and immoral thing. It's not my job to act as his moral advisor. I have no duty to be "nice" to him. I have no obligation to be his guide through the trial of life.

He asked my opinion and I gave it to him. In my opinion he was a prick.

I think there is a difference between causing problems. (killing animals)
And not solving problems. (Not protesting animal abuse)

Interesting...please go on...PLEASE...
The emo is boring me to death...you MUST SAVE US!!!

you have never once on these forums attempted to have a reasonable debate. Some of us just recognize you when you show up and don't attempt to have any with you, since we've already tried that method.

Another personal attack. Are you really so desperate to avoid the issue? As it is, I'm leaving. Have fun arguing with yourself. I assure you, I won't waste the time on you again.

Another personal attack. Are you really so desperate to avoid the issue? As it is, I'm leaving. Have fun arguing with yourself. I assure you, I won't waste the time on you again.

Finally.

And I'm holding you to that promise.

That's "twat" applied to the OP, as opposed to my earlier expressed desire to be twatting KSP over the head with his guitar, for those of you just joining this epic debate

Hahahaha, though I then expanded the twattage to include KSP.

I used your name in place of a rather long list of people who hold your viewpoint, Nees. It was a blanket generalization that seems very chic in this thread.

Jesus Christ people, get it right! The term I used, quite scientifically thank you, was TWAT. Not sociopath.

That's "twat" applied to the OP, as opposed to my earlier expressed desire to be twatting KSP over the head with his guitar, for those of you just joining this epic debate

Another personal attack. Are you really so desperate to avoid the issue? As it is, I'm leaving. Have fun arguing with yourself. I assure you, I won't waste the time on you again.

translation: I've been backed into a corner because a group of people have decided that instead of just letting me get away with being an insuferable prick because I annoy them, they're actually going to make me back up my stance. Since I can't do that, I gotta go.

I think problem one was shooting an animal just because.

I think problem two was being unskilled enough to prolong its suffering.

I think problem three was coming in here with the 'aw shucks oh gee, ain't I cute for killing this bird because I, like, felt bad for causing suffering that was totally preventable' bragging confession.

I think problem four is the attitude of "fuck it, it's just an animal." Was it causing harm to property? uh, no. Was it killing livestock? uh, no. Was it attacking him? uh, no. It was just minding its own business when someone decided it would be fun to see what happens when shot meets living creature. Either he is old enough to know what happens when BB and bird meet, in which case he had no business firing at an animal for no reason, or he's truly too young and irresponsible to be messing with guns of any kind.

Problem five is that, sorry, sociopaths ofter start off torturing and killing small animals and work their way up. So saying, "It's just a fucking bird," says a lot about the person saying it.

Problem six is people getting WAY too fucking bitchy at each other about it.

Do I have a problem with hunting? No. You gonna eat it, or it's harming you, go ahead. If you're going to be the kind of person who knocks off a deer for its head and leaves the rest to rot, then I reserve the right to think you a wasteful asshole.

I used your name in place of a rather long list of people who hold your viewpoint, Nees. It was a blanket generalization that seems very chic in this thread.

I take it you've never dealt with KSP and his particular brand of dickheadedness before then.

*snip*

And I believe that wraps things up nicely.

Good night all:)

Well, we're all bad. I'm trying to seduce this guy who is semi-taken. But it's not all my fault; he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too. He thinks he can be in a casual relationship with her, and still be a-little-more-than-friends with me. I think he needs to choose before it gets too bloody, so I have to convince him that even though she's the good choice, I'm the right one. He may be happy and morally righteous with her, but he'll be complete with me.


I just don't know how to do this without losing sight of who I am, and earning myself a hefty base of enemies. You see, even if I'm able to convince myself that I'm better for him, and I'm what he needs, the whole drama-room crowd is on her side. I don't want to feel like some slut of another woman, but I don't want to give him up without a fight. *Moral Dilemma-ed!*

*blinks*

Well, we're all bad. I'm trying to seduce this guy who is semi-taken. But it's not all my fault; he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too. He thinks he can be in a casual relationship with her, and still be a-little-more-than-friends with me. I think he needs to choose before it gets too bloody, so I have to convince him that even though she's the good choice, I'm the right one. He may be happy and morally righteous with her, but he'll be complete with me.


I just don't know how to do this without losing sight of who I am, and earning myself a hefty base of enemies. You see, even if I'm able to convince myself that I'm better for him, and I'm what he needs, the whole drama-room crowd is on her side. I don't want to feel like some slut of another woman, but I don't want to give him up without a fight. *Moral Dilemma-ed!*

*blinks*

Well, I thought it was a thread on how we're all bad people, not an eighteen page debate on shooting animals.

Well, I thought it was a thread on how we're all bad people, not an eighteen page debate on shooting animals.

meh, either/or.

Though the relationship drama does seem fun vicariously.

And I believe that wraps things up nicely.

Good night all:)Word.

The end.

meh, either/or.

Though the relationship drama does seem fun vicariously.

Oh, yeah! It's loads of fun.

If that makes you feel bad then you should never live a day in my life.

*Randomly jumps NSGers and beats them up*

OK...a little forum etiquette lesson, since it's apparently needed.

Regarding the OP

You disgust me.

You apparently get your kicks from shooting dumb, defenseless animals with guns? And for no particular reason?

I will never understand non-essential hunting.

GOOD answers!

What's wrong is that you're a murderous, bored little thug who, for want of any reason whatsoever, destroyed an infinitely more beautiful, delicate and graceful creature who at least understood his purpose in life, which is more than you'll ever be able to say.

Feel like shit yet? Well, good. And while I'm at it,

*ignore*

I don't chat with greasy little bird-killing punks.

Fucking rights.

Anything less would make you an absolute, disgusting little twat.

Hunting? Get a fucking grip.

BAD answers!

---

There are some remarks here one could classify as bullying.

Hmmm...

I find it amusing to be lectured about me living in a "fantasy world" from someone who hasn't graduated highschool yet and lives with his parents.

Unless you've been napping, the thread has shifted from the great white hunter to listening to the dark, gloomy emo messiah who one day will dedicate his LIFE to alleviating the suffering of his fellow human beings...not just obsessing over a bird to the exclusion of all the evils in this world like the rest of us...yes, he'll do this...one day...just not, like, right now, because um, like...he's too caught up in his art. Or something.

awww, isn't that cute. His music has a "point". What point is that junior, how much life is suffering because daddy grounded you for "borrowing" the car and not telling him?

and has classes to do.

And mommy wants him home for dinner, and he's really not let out of the house after 9.

*collapses, howling with laughter*

I can't believe we're discussing 'your music' *tears in eyes*

Just do it elsewhere. I'm sure you parents need their daily dose.

I'd certainly say so...sad really.

Well its late and I'm off. I would like to point out one thing:

This thread celebrated its start with needlessly volatile insults directed at a kid (okie) and appears it will end with volatile insults directed at another one (ksp).

It really is kind of sick.

I agree.

kiddo, the only one who has been trying to make this about you is you.

Ugh, you've done nothing but make it about you.

He (KSP) tried several times to redirect the conversation to the topic...but you two just kept egging him on because you knew he'd jump through your hoops.

He's right...you really ought to have something better to do...and I think KSP showed a hell of a lot more maturity in this thread than you two did.

Why can't we all get along?

Hey, that reminds me of the time I was grapped my .40 cuz Tony called my motha a whore and near the exact.... eh nvm. I'm going to leave now.

...
So... What is wrong with me?

I could say....


nah, I won't bother I think. If you don't know, there's no helping you really.

I could say....


nah, I won't bother I think. If you don't know, there's no helping you really.

Good post!

What the hell are you doing with a fricking gun, bb or not. aiming at a defenceless animal.

if i had a bb gun i'd be shooting you with it.

you stupid scum

people like you disgust me.

go shoot yourself in the leg 10 times see how you like it.

moron

Bad post!


...see how easy this is people? :p

EDIT: Yay Warpishness

What the hell are you doing with a fricking gun, bb or not. aiming at a defenceless animal.

if i had a bb gun i'd be shooting you with it.

you stupid scum

people like you disgust me.

go shoot yourself in the leg 10 times see how you like it.

moron

I don't see the problem, to be honest. If you're willing to kill an animal for food, you shouldn't see anything wrong in killing one for fun or whatever other reasons. It's like murdering someone to rob their house or simply just for fun; either both are wrong or they aren't.

Ok this is what happened... (Taken from IRC)
<Okie> see i was in the woods with my BB gun
<Okie> and i saw this bird swoop in
<Okie> so i shot at it
<Okie> and i crushed its left wing
<Okie> so it started hoppng around cuz it couldnt fly
<Okie> and you cant leave a bird like that to die
<Okie> so i chased it to kill it so it wouldnt suffer and die slowly
<Okie> but i shot it once and it was stil alive so i shot it three more times
<Okie> but it was still alive and it squeaked and looked to be in pain
<Okie> so i pumped my gun all 10 times and shot it in the head and got bird blood all over me :(
So... What is wrong with me?

i kinda did that once with a rat. we had a problem with them at uni and managed to catch a couple in a bin. my flatmate got a cricket bat and landed a hit dead on one of the rats heads, killing it right away. me, however.... i was kinda stoned and it took, lets say, a few too many tries to actually kill the poor thing :-S :(


but still, bad...

What the hell are you doing with a fricking gun, bb or not. aiming at a defenceless animal.

if i had a bb gun i'd be shooting you with it.

you stupid scum

people like you disgust me.

go shoot yourself in the leg 10 times see how you like it.

moron

PETA SUCKS!:upyours:

I just hope the kid learns from his actions.

Shotgun FTW. Though I never got the point of hunting/fishing if you don't plan on using the animal or are engaging in pest control - go clay pidgeon shooting instead.

I do have to wonder about how exactly people think animals die in the wild.

It seems that many here seem to think animals naturally die in Beatrix Potter scenarios surrounded by their friends and relatives in their cosy bed in their nest with medication and so on and so on. This is not the case - they die because they get injured and starve to death, or because they get an illness that kills them - think of the suffering caused by an illness that kills a human if untreated and with no painkillers - it's a lot of suffering, or because they die of cold or heat exhaustion or the most merciful and quickest of all when they are eaten by another animal - even old age is rarely the cause, the animal becomes so weak it can't get food properly and slowly starves to death. It's a brutal brutal world out there and the chances are this bird suffered a lot less than it eventually would have at the hands of nature.

Ok this is what happened... (Taken from IRC)
<Okie> see i was in the woods with my BB gun
<Okie> and i saw this bird swoop in
<Okie> so i shot at it
<Okie> and i crushed its left wing
<Okie> so it started hoppng around cuz it couldnt fly
<Okie> and you cant leave a bird like that to die
<Okie> so i chased it to kill it so it wouldnt suffer and die slowly
<Okie> but i shot it once and it was stil alive so i shot it three more times
<Okie> but it was still alive and it squeaked and looked to be in pain
<Okie> so i pumped my gun all 10 times and shot it in the head and got bird blood all over me :(
So... What is wrong with me?

You've been fed too much meat. Try going veggie for a while :)

20 pages ,wtf?

20 pages ,wtf?

QFT

OK...a little forum etiquette lesson, since it's apparently needed.

Piffle. If the OP didn't want to be taken to task for his thoughtless, destructive anti-social behaviour, he should've kept his tongue behind his teeth.

My moral judgment towards the OP will be reserved for whether or not he learned that it is unacceptable to torture small animals. Other than that, I do have to wonder why he didn't know this at his age, but unless it's willful ignorance, I can't really fault him for it.

What the fuck is wrong with you, man?

http://lego.zianet.com/lighthouse/zap.gif

How old are you? I was 11 the last time I walked through the wood with a BB gun and shot a bird. Grow up pussy.

Well. Karma kicked my butt today. I was walking in the parking lot afer school and one of those ever crapping inland seagulls took a dump on my head.

How old are you? I was 11 the last time I walked through the wood with a BB gun and shot a bird. Grow up pussy.
15. What is your problem>

As uninteresting as topics like these are to me, they sure do let you know who the nuts are.. interesting reading. :p

Well. Karma kicked my butt today. I was walking in the parking lot afer school and one of those ever crapping inland seagulls took a dump on my head.
Let that be a lesson to you.

And thank God that there are no flying elephants.

As uninteresting as topics like these are to me, they sure do let you know who the nuts are.. interesting reading. :p
:p OF course

Let that be a lesson to you.

And thank God that there are no flying elephants.
Or flying German Nightmares

Or flying German Nightmares
;) You betcha.

Reminds me of a miliary marching cadence. Goes a little something like this:

Birdie, birdie in the sky...

...dropped some whitewash in my eye...

...I'm not worried! I won't cry!...

...I'm just glad that cows don't fly!

:D

As uninteresting as topics like these are to me, they sure do let you know who the nuts are.. interesting reading. :p
There are no nutjobs on NS. :) Just normal, everyday people.

There are no nutjobs on NS. :) Just normal, everyday people.

Don't burst his bubble. *cavorts and engages in nuttery*

There are no nutjobs on NS. :) Just normal, everyday people.

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/smarty.gif

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/smarty.gif
http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/blbl.gif

You should've used a rifle.
To shoot a little bird? With an aim like his?
I would have recommended a small-game shotgun, perhaps a 410 bore.

15. What is your problem>

presumably his problem is the same as my problem.

At 15 you should have known better.

The part of your human nature that wants to hurt things and the part that doesn't want things to suffer clashed in an internal battle.

I'd buy that for a dollar.

As far as the question of "do animals feel pain", this states it better than I can:

Nearly all the external signs that lead us to infer pain in other humans can be seen in other species, especially the species most closely related to us--the species of mammals and birds. The behavioral signs include writhing, facial contortions, moaning, yelping or other forms of calling, attempts to avoid the source of the pain, appearance of fear at the prospect of its repetition, and so on. In addition, we know that these animals have nervous systems very like ours, which respond physiologically like ours do when the animal is in circumstances in which we would feel pain: an initial rise of blood pressure, dilated pupils, perspiration, an increased pulse rate, and, if the stimulus continues, a fall in blood pressure. Although human beings have a more developed cerebral cortex than other animals, this part of the brain is concerned with thinking functions rather than with basic impulses, emotions, and feelings. These impulses, emotions, and feelings are located in the diencephalon, which is well developed in many other species of animals, especially mammals and birds. [1]

We also know that the nervous systems of other animals were not artificially constructed--as a robot might be artificially constructed--to mimic the pain behavior of humans. The nervous systems of animals evolved as our own did, and in fact the evolutionary history of human beings and other animals, especially mammals, did not diverge until the central features of our nervous systems were already in existence. A capacity to feel pain obviously enhances a species' prospects for survival, since it causes members of the species to avoid sources of injury. It is surely unreasonable to suppose that nervous systems that are virtually identical physiologically, have a common origin and a common evolutionary function, and result in similar forms of behavior in similar circumstances should actually operate in an entirely different manner on the level of subjective feelings...

Source (http://articles.animalconcerns.org/ar-voices/archive/pain.html)

You really are struggling arent you?

Ayeh.

I'd buy that for a dollar.
You really are struggling arent you?

So its wrong to kill a bird? :confused: Whatever:rolleyes:

it's wrong to inflict pain on a bird for your own amusement, yes. I think people who shoot birds simply for their own amusement are bad people. By virtue of this, I think you are a bad person.

If you didn't want that answer, why the hell did you ask the question?

What'd you expect? We'd all go "aww, it's ok, it's just a bird, no harm done" and give you some absolution? Did you think we'd all excuse your behavior and tell you it's alright and make you feel better?

Sorry, I'm not your mother, it's not my job to be nice to you. You came here, you asked the question, I gave you my answer.

presumably his problem is the same as my problem.

At 15 you should have known better.
So its wrong to kill a bird? :confused: Whatever:rolleyes:

So its wrong to kill a bird? :confused: Whatever:rolleyes:

Ah...so you WERE bragging, and not contrite at all.

Glad I wasn't fooled.

Ayeh.
I'll send you a tele soon:)

Ah...so you WERE bragging, and not contrite at all.

Glad I wasn't fooled.
They way I had to go about killing it was bad.

Let me get this straight. You come here making a whiny thread about how you were "an awful person today", it goes on for 21 pages, and now you're giving us this:
So its wrong to kill a bird? :confused: Whatever:rolleyes:
?

Seriously?

it's wrong to inflict pain on a bird for your own amusement, yes. I think people who shoot birds simply for their own amusement are bad people. By virtue of this, I think you are a bad person.

If you didn't want that answer, why the hell did you ask the question?

What'd you expect? We'd all go "aww, it's ok, it's just a bird, no harm done" and give you some absolution? Did you think we'd all excuse your behavior and tell you it's alright and make you feel better?

Sorry, I'm not your mother, it's not my job to be nice to you. You came here, you asked the question, I gave you my answer.
I was just killing for the point of killing. I guess theres something wrong in that but I wasnt killing to inflict pain. Just for "sport" I guess. But there isnt much sport in a little sparrow now is there.:rolleyes:

They way I had to go about killing it was bad.

Ah, but killing a bird for no reason is fine. I see.

So its wrong to kill a bird? :confused: Whatever:rolleyes:

Pathetic.

Let me get this straight. You come here making a whiny thread about how you were "an awful person today", it goes on for 21 pages, and now you're giving us this:

?

Seriously?

Yes, it's quite something. And all of the people who were defending him so much...well, I hope they read this latest twattage.

Let me get this straight. You come here making a whiny thread about how you were "an awful person today", it goes on for 21 pages, and now you're giving us this:

?

Seriously?
No no no no. Look at my comment after. The reason I posted was the way I killed it and thats why I gave it the title. If I would have killed it one shot, no biggie. But it took me like 7 so

The bird was asking for it.

And no pics? :(

Pathetic.

Oh, us horrible people, persecuting him when he clearly felt regret for his actions.:rolleyes:

Pathetic.
Because you are a sheltered little PETA fanatic?

No no no no. Look at my comment after. The reason I posted was the way I killed it and thats why I gave it the title. If I would have killed it one shot, no biggie. But it took me like 7 so

So again. Killing an animal for no purpose other than pleasure is alright in your mind.

Great white hunter.

Oh, us horrible people, persecuting him when he clearly felt regret for his actions.:rolleyes:

I can't tell anymore; I have the rotten little brat on ignore. It's only due to extensive quotations I was able to hear his total and utter lack of contrition.

Because you are a sheltered little PETA fanatic?

Oh, us horrible people, persecuting him when he clearly felt regret for his actions.:rolleyes:

Here we go again. :p

I'll bet by the end of the night there'll be another good 20 pages added to the volumes that already make up this thread. :)

The bird was asking for it.

And no pics? :(
No. Im not that perverted to take pictures of a mutilated sparrow.

Here we go again. :p

I'll bet by the end of the night there'll be another good 20 pages added to the volumes that already make up this thread. :)
2 Pages before someone says: OMG U NAZI

Because you are a sheltered little PETA fanatic?
So do you drown kittens too, in your spare time?

No. Im not that perverted to take pictures of a mutilated sparrow.
Well you already killed the damn thing - taking pictures is hardly what would make you perverted at this point.

So again. Killing an animal for no purpose other than pleasure is alright in your mind.

Great white hunter.
*Okie raises his bow in triumph

Here we go again. :p

I'll bet by the end of the night there'll be another good 20 pages added to the volumes that already make up this thread. :)

Well you're adding to it :D

No. Im not that perverted to take pictures of a mutilated sparrow.

I don't understand why people are getting so worked up over one dead sparrow, then. Maybe if it was an endangered animal or something it would be bad. But it's a useless little sparrow. Life goes on. If you feel bad about it just don't do it again.

Well you already killed the damn thing - taking pictures is hardly what would make you perverted at this point.
Youve never killed a living creature?

I was just killing for the point of killing. I guess theres something wrong in that

Well, duh.

but I wasnt killing to inflict pain. Just for "sport" I guess. But there isnt much sport in a little sparrow now is there.:rolleyes:

Let me get this straight. You fired a metal slug at a creature with enough force to shatter its skeleton, and didn't think it would feel pain?

What did you think? That you were some davy crockett junior, who could shoot it right between the eyes and it would fall down with some cartoonish "thud"?

You shot at it for your own amusement. But you were trying to kill it, you didn't want to inflict pain on it.

So let me ask. You fired a metal projectile at it with enough force to break its spine. What the fuck did you think would happen, exactly?

I don't understand why people are getting so worked up over one dead sparrow, then. Maybe if it was an endangered animal or something it would be bad. But it's a useless little sparrow. Life goes on. If you feel bad about it just don't do it again.
I feel bad and not bad at the same time :confused: thats why I have mixed responces

I don't understand why people are getting so worked up over one dead sparrow, then. Maybe if it was an endangered animal or something it would be bad. But it's a useless little sparrow. Life goes on. If you feel bad about it just don't do it again.

He doesn't feel bad. That's kind of the point. He started this bullshit thead to get attention, so he pretended he regretted it.

Well, duh.



Let me get this straight. You fired a metal slug at a creature with enough force to shatter its skeleton, and didn't think it would feel pain?

What did you think? That you were some davy crockett junior, who could shoot it right between the eyes and it would fall down with some cartoonish "thud"?

You shot at it for your own amusement. But you were trying to kill it, you didn't want to inflict pain on it.

So let me ask. You fired a metal projectile at it with enough force to break its spine. What the fuck did you think would happen, exactly?
Ok this bird was in pain for maybe ten seconds. And second why is this bird so....high up I guess?

Well you're adding to it :D
Heh, I never said it was a bad thing. Let's just see how long this remains entertaining.

Youve never killed a living creature?
Not intentionally, no. I still am confused as to why you even did it in the first place.

I don't understand why people are getting so worked up over one dead sparrow, then. Maybe if it was an endangered animal or something it would be bad. But it's a useless little sparrow. Life goes on. If you feel bad about it just don't do it again.

That useless little sparrow still feels pain. He inflicted pain on something capable of feeling that pain with most if not all the intensity you do.

If it were done to a human we'd call that torture.

In the end, yes, it's just one sparrow. No major loss. We are not bemouning the loss of the sparrow. We are disgusted by the barbaric attitude of this little thug.

Heh, I never said it was a bad thing. Let's just see how long this remains entertaining.


Not intentionally, no. I still am confused as to why you even did it in the first place.
YOU LIAR. Youve never squashed a bug with your foot intentionally?

Killing for no reason is wrong. No getting around it. Life is precious and if you don't need what you killed in death or if it is not attempting to harm you then there is no reason to kill it.

Not intentionally, no. I still am confused as to why you even did it in the first place.

Kids get bored.

Ok this bird was in pain for maybe ten seconds.

Pain you inflicted on it, for no other purpose than to further your own amusement.

That is wrong.


And second why is this bird so....high up I guess?

It isn't. It's actually considerably lower than a human, which is why you're still free to come to this forum and whine about your little existential crisis rather than sitting in jail.

If you did that to a person you'd have been arrested. Since it's a bird, you aren't.

In the end, yes, it's just one sparrow. No major loss. We are not bemouning the loss of the sparrow. We are disgusted by the barbaric attitude of this little thug.

Thank you for summing this up.

YOU LIAR. Youve never squashed a bug with your foot intentionally?

bugs don't feel pain.

Try to keep up.

It isn't. It's actually considerably lower than a human, which is why you're still free to come to this forum and whine about your little existential crisis rather than sitting in jail.

If you did that to a person you'd have been arrested. Since it's a bird, you aren't.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
So killing a bird means I would kill a person?

Pain you inflicted on it, for no other purpose than to further your own amusement.

That is wrong.


Who cares how much pain it feels? It's a sparrow.

Btw, one of the traits of a serial killer is killing animals for fun.:p

YOU LIAR. Youve never squashed a bug with your foot intentionally?
Not if it wasn't going to cause me harm, no. Insects usually creep around at night. I really doubt the bird was out to get you though. And clearly you were not hunting out of hunger.

Kids get bored.
Which is what we have PS 3s and the like for. Animals are not just cute, fluffy little toys that you can put to death when you've got nothing better to do.

And no, I am not advocating anything different to what I did yesterday, should some people in here think I am. I enjoy playing Devil's advocate though. :D The argument that tigers/primates kill for pleasure is fine for illogical, irrational beings that are built for the purpose of meting out death - not for spoilt human kids.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
So killing a bird means I would kill a person?

god, you're an idiot. We don't treat birds as "high" as humans, which was your question.

If we did treat birds as high as humans, you'd be in jail now, because if you did it to a human, you would be.

Although, I wouldn't put it past you. As mentioned before in this thread, torture of animals is often seen as one of the first signs of sociopathology.

Who cares how much pain it feels? It's a sparrow.

Btw, one of the traits of a serial killer is killing animals for fun.:p

Who cares how much you feel pain? You're a stranger.

It just seems so odd to me that people need some sort of rationale not to needlessly kill living things...like it's so shocking to support having a reason for the death you mete out beside merely, 'I was bored'.

Does anyone think that he/she should've just let the sparrow live after the first shot and just let it limp around?

Not if it wasn't going to cause me harm, no. Insects usually creep around at night. I really doubt the bird was out to get you though.
Oh. You under estimate this bird! Besides it was near a neighborhood...it couldhave eaten small children!

Does anyone think that he/she should've just let the sparrow live after the first shot and just let it limp around?

No.

But most of us think he should not have shot it in the first place. None of us have argued against killing it once it was so horribly injured.

Who cares how much you feel pain? You're a stranger.


A stranger is not equitable to a human being. Which has already been said. And I honestly doubt that you would care very much if I died or felt pain. Sure, people say "Oh that's awful..." but how much is it going to affect them the next day emotionally? I doubt very much.

Oh. You under estimate this bird! Besides it was near a neighborhood...it couldhave eaten small children!
If I had less intelligence than the bird, I'd also be afraid of it. ;)

Which is what we have PS 3s and the like for. Animals are not just cute, fluffy little toys that you can put to death when you've got nothing better to do.


PS3s cost 600 dollars. If that's not torture, then what is?

A stranger is not equitable to a human being. Which has already been said. And I honestly doubt that you would care very much if I died or felt pain. Sure, people say "Oh that's awful..." but how much is it going to affect them the next day emotionally? I doubt very much.

And yet, despite my lack of compassion for your pain or death, I would wish neither upon you, nor would I condone someone causing you that pain or death on the premise that your pain or death is meaningless to me.

Get it now?

Probably not.

Just because you don't care that the sparrow feels pain is no reason or justification for it to be put into pain.

If I had less intelligence than the bird, I'd also be afraid of it. ;)

Think of all the earthworms he saved.

Who cares how much pain it feels? It's a sparrow.

Are you being sarcastic or not?

If not, let me ask you, why SHOULDN'T we care about something suffering? Yeah it's a sparrow, I won't lose sleep over it, it is less than a human.

Does that make it alright to inflict pain on an animal "just because"? No, of course not.

Let's put it this way. I have a cat. I love my cat. I wouldn't do anything to kill my cat.

But let's say both myself and my cat get infected with a virus, it will kill both of us. We are both placed under quaranteen, together. Someone figures out an antidote, but they only have time to develop one dose. One of us will live, one of us will die.

I love my cat. But kitty's going down.

That's sane, that's logical. I am more important than my cat. I will make a choice that results in me living over my cat dying. I am more important than the cat.

That still doesn't make it right to torture it before it dies.

Btw, one of the traits of a serial killer is killing animals for fun.:p

Somewhat. One of the signs of antisocial personality disorder is a lack of empathy. Many serial killers have antisocial personality disorder. Torturing animals is often an indicator of that disorder.

god, you're an idiot. We don't treat birds as "high" as humans, which was your question.

If we did treat birds as high as humans, you'd be in jail now, because if you did it to a human, you would be.

Although, I wouldn't put it past you. As mentioned before in this thread, torture of animals is often seen as one of the first signs of sociopathology.
Then do you really want to argue with me?

PS3s cost 600 dollars. If that's not torture, then what is?
A Wii for what... $200? Or the television, or playing with his little kiddy friends. Or reading for crying out loud, maybe to ascend from the intellectual void he's currently stuck in....

Maybe working for the $600 to gain the PS 3 might put him out of his boredom. :)

Pathetic.

Trolling, actually.

Does anyone think that he/she should've just let the sparrow live after the first shot and just let it limp around?

No.

That being said, he shouldn't have shot it in the first place.

If he came across an animal wounded, suffering, and dying and killed it to end its pain I would have considered that acceptable. I probably would consider that down right noble.

I find no moral highground putting an animal out of the misery he caused in the first place.

Then do you really want to argue with me?

I'm really not all that scared, you can't even hit a bird right. Although, I'm sure this could be considered a personal threat....mods generally don't like that.

A Sparrow. Few here apparently care about a Sparrow. Well, I care. I provide food, water and shelter to a flock of approximately five dozen sparrows - not to mention the Starling clan who wanders in an out of the neighbourhood. For the last few weeks I've been helping to keep a stranded flock of Gnat-Catchers alive 'til spring thaw - they were caught up in the unseasonably warm December weather, and now are having to learn to survive in the city, the Sparrow way. Come summer, I'll be tending the needs of Cardinals, Redwing Blackbirds, Cowbirds, Magpies and yes, Crows as well.

Over the years, I've built sufficient trust with the local sparrows that they'll rest on one foot (a sure sign of confidence) while sitting less than six inches from my body - and they'll remain perched even if I make a movement. I can differentiate between sounding calls, mating calls, alarm calls, and sleepy chatter. I can even call back to them - their frequency is nearly the same as that of my lovebirds, a species I'm extremely familiar with, and one that happens to fill the same ecological niche as the Sparrow - at least in the mountains of Tanzania.

I've rescue orphaned sparrows. I've wept to find Cardinal hens savaged by somebody's fucking housecat. I've raised birds by hand, and held birds gently as they breathed their last. I've learned a great deal from watching, handling and listening to birds, and I came to realize that even a tiny, caged Agapornis Personata Personata can and will understand what's being said around and about them. I don't give a fig what anyone else who hasn't had my wealth of experience proclaims about birds not being sentient - as they're clearly talking out their arseholes.

Pests? Maybe. Inconsequential? Never. Wherever my travels have taken me, I have seen Sparrows - just the same as the delicate little ones who sing outside my window every morning. Aggressive, territorial, prodigious. Successful, adaptable, admirable. Alive. More alive than Okliehoma, at any rate.

Trolling, actually.
Um. No. Im not trolling I just want sure if I had done something I should regret or not:rolleyes:

In whos eyes is the life of a sparrow worth less than that of a human being? It would take a human to believe that, I am sure. And that is all it is... a belief.

There is no objective scale where one can compare what creature has more worth in this universe. It's silly to say otherwise.

I'm really not all that scared, you can't even hit a bird right. Although, I'm sure this could be considered a personal threat....mods generally don't like that.
Definately not a threat. More of a joke. I really hope you didnt take that seriously.

Pests? Maybe. Inconsequential? Never. Wherever my travels have taken me, I have seen Sparrows - just the same as the delicate little ones who sing outside my window every morning. Aggressive, territorial, prodigious. Successful, adaptable, admirable. Alive. More alive than Okliehoma, at any rate.

We agree...but now both of us are raving PETA lunatics.:rolleyes:

In whos eyes is the life of a sparrow worth less than that of a human being? It would take a human to believe that, I am sure. And that is all it is... a belief.

There is no objective scale where one can compare what creature has more worth in this universe. It's silly to say otherwise.

objectively we can argue based purely on capability. A human has a larger capacity to do good things. A sparrow will always be a sparrow.

We can also discuss what is lost to the world by a human's death, through a sparrow's death. In these instances I would consider a sparrow "less" than a person, and would generally always chose the person's life over the sparrow's life.

Maybe it is a subjective human believe, but it is only humans we're talking about here, no other race has sought fit to enter the conversation.

Um. No. Im not trolling I just want sure if I had done something I should regret or not:rolleyes:
Why ask a bunch of strangers on a forum? This is something you ought to figure out for yourself via reflection.

Trolling, actually.

Yeah, well - I made up for it with my subsequent post. And if you read that, it goes to explain my previous pronouncement.

What's more, I'll stick by that pronouncement. It is pathetic.

Definately not a threat. More of a joke. I really hope you didnt take that seriously.

and if I did? Certainly SOUNDED like you were making a threat to me...

Yeah, well - I made up for it with my subsequent post. And if you read that, it goes to explain my previous pronouncement.

What's more, I'll stick by that pronouncement. It is pathetic.
I think kat was refering to the OP and quoted you for context, not direction.

and if I did? Certainly SOUNDED like you were making a threat to me...

http://blog.mediacatalyst.com/images/seriousbusiness.jpg

Why ask a bunch of strangers on a forum? This is something you ought to figure out for yourself via reflection.
Ummm. Because.

Ummm. Because.
Well, I can't argue with logic that incisive...

I think kat was refering to the OP and quoted you for context, not direction.

Oh, my bad. Coulda been taken the other way, the way that exchange went.

Sorry Kat.

and if I did? Certainly SOUNDED like you were making a threat to me...
Then you are paranoid.

Then you are paranoid.

I dunno, you certainly seem like a dangerous individual.

objectively we can argue based purely on capability. A human has a larger capacity to do good things. A sparrow will always be a sparrow.

We can also discuss what is lost to the world by a human's death, through a sparrow's death. In these instances I would consider a sparrow "less" than a person, and would generally always chose the person's life over the sparrow's life.

Maybe it is a subjective human believe, but it is only humans we're talking about here, no other race has sought fit to enter the conversation.

and since a human has much more of a capacity to do very very bad things that could never be accomplished by any other creature? Wouldnt it follow that humans are lesser than any other creature?

I too, as a human, would choose a humans life over a sparrows but that only reinforces my point about it being subjective. If a sparrow had the capacity to choose I'm betting that in the sparrow would win.

Because you are a sheltered little PETA fanatic?

No, because you caused pain to an animal for no good reason and apparently needed to put seven more shots into a bird with a broken wing to put it out of its misery.

Well, I can't argue with logic that incisive...
Of course you cant!

The fact that you shot the bird for no reason in the first place speaks very badly about you.

However, the fact that upon seeing the result of your action, you attempted to put the poor thing out if its misery instead of just watching or leaving it to suffer shows that you have some empathy. Hopefully you've learned something from this.


Now, in response to some of the posters on this thread. The bird is less intelligent and self-aware than we are. However, the physical perception of pain is the same in the bird is pretty much the same. Like us, it has nerve endings and a neural network attached to a brain. The part of the brain that percieves base feelings and emotions like that is the most primitive part of our brain, and so isn't really much different from that in the bird. In short, you really can't deny that what the bird was feeling was agony.

What I object to is the fact that the suffering inflicted was needless. I don't take issue with hunting if one is going to eat the animal, as then at least there is a purpose, that's fair, the food chain and all that. Here there was no purpose, a creature suffered excruciating pain for no reason. That is what saddens me.

No. Im not that perverted to take pictures of a mutilated sparrow.

No. But you can cause the mutilation and then tell us all about it.

No, because you caused pain to an animal for no good reason and apparently needed to put seven more shots into a bird with a broken wing to put it out of its misery.
Hey. Sue the company that made the BB gun if it makes you happy. I didnt want to hit it in the head until I had too.

Have you ever held a Bb or real gun in your life?

The fact that you shot the bird for no reason in the first place speaks very badly about you.

However, the fact that upon seeing the result of your action, you attempted to put the poor thing out if its misery instead of just watching or leaving it to suffer shows that you have some empathy. Hopefully you've learned something from this.

As I said before, if he came across a suffering animal and killed it to end its pain I would have considered that a noble and morally good act.

I find no moral goodness in ending the pain he caused. The immorality may be in some way mitigated by that, it may perhaps be, in some ways "less bad", but certainly not a net positive.


Now, in response to some of the posters on this thread. The bird is less intelligent and self-aware than we are. However, the physical perception of pain is the same in the bird is pretty much the same. Like us, it has nerve endings and a neural network attached to a brain. The part of the brain that percieves base feelings and emotions like that is the most primitive part of our brain, and so isn't really much different from that in the bird. In short, you really can't deny that what the bird was feeling was agony.

Fundamentally yes. The part of our brains that feel pain is very similar to the parts of avian and mammal brains. Likewise they respond to pain in the same way humans do.

What I object to is the fact that the suffering inflicted was needless. I don't take issue with hunting if one is going to eat the animal, as then at least there is a purpose, that's fair, the food chain and all that. Here there was no purpose, a creature suffered excruciating pain for no reason. That is what saddens me.

Agreed. The problem is not that he killed an animal. Killing an animal is justified in many occassions. It's that he did it for no purpose.

No. But you can cause the mutilation and then tell us all about it.
Um Yes. It really wasnt that mutilated anyway...I onyl have .177 caliber pellets thats why it took so long to die

Um Yes. It really wasnt that mutilated anyway...I onyl have .177 caliber pellets thats why it took so long to die

you did what is the scaled equivalent of driving a 3 inch metal spike into your arm.

What the hell is your standard of mutilation?

I dunno, you certainly seem like a dangerous individual.
Of course

Um Yes. It really wasnt that mutilated anyway...I onyl have .177 caliber pellets thats why it took so long to die

if the caliber of the pellet was such that you were unlikely to kill it on the first shot, and would be inflicting pain on it, why the hell were you shooting at it in the first place?

you did what is the scaled equivalent of driving a 3 inch metal spike into your arm.

What the hell is your standard of mutilation?
Loosing a body part

Of course

so then it was a threat?

Loosing a body part

Um... it kinda did... and that's a pretty disturbing definition of mutilation.

So if I took a sledgehammer to your arm and bashed the crap out of it, breaking it badly, that's not mutilation? For a better comparison to the plight of the bird, assume you have no real access to medical attention.

Loosing a body part

you fail.

Mutilation is an act or injury that degrades the appearance or function of the body, usually without causing death

if the caliber of the pellet was such that you were unlikely to kill it on the first shot, and would be inflicting pain on it, why the hell were you shooting at it in the first place?
To shoot at something that is moving?

Yeah, well - I made up for it with my subsequent post. And if you read that, it goes to explain my previous pronouncement.

What's more, I'll stick by that pronouncement. It is pathetic.

Dobbs, I was not scolding you. Considering the polling questions, lack of regret, and bragging about putting seven or eight shots into something that weighs, what, a quarter to a half an ounce, it sounds a lot like trolling to me.

The same kind of person who ends up as a serial killer later in life. It starts as killing animals for no reason then grows. I have killed and ordered others to kill but i would never take pride in it. It is a gruesome and horrible business that i would never recommend to anyone. There is nothing that weighs on your soul more than taking another human life.

Hey. Sue the company that made the BB gun if it makes you happy. I didnt want to hit it in the head until I had too.

Have you ever held a Bb or real gun in your life?

Yes, I have, and I've fired them, too. Bows as well. Your point?

You're the one who aimed. You're the one who pulled the trigger. You're the one who's responsible. Why would I hold a company that makes a tool responsible for the way someone uses it? Unless of course, blaming other people for your own actions is something you've grown accustomed to?

To shoot at something that is moving?

with the knowledge that it would cause pain, yes?

So you are saying i will be a serial killer

You seem to fit the profile.

armyman?

You fail at military structure too.

Yes, I have, and I've fired them, too. Bows as well. Your point?
*Shrugs* Didnt have a point just a question

So you are saying i will be a serial killer armyman?

You seem to fit the profile.



You fail at military structure too.
Thank you. I will come and kill you one day then;) . YOU HAVE CREATED ME:D

Thank you. I will come and kill you one day then;) . YOU HAVE CREATED ME:D

another personal threat?

Dobbs, I was not scolding you. Considering the polling questions, lack of regret, and bragging about putting seven or eight shots into something that weighs, what, a quarter to a half an ounce, it sounds a lot like trolling to me.

...Again, my bad. Sorry, sorry.

So you are saying i will be a serial killer armyman?

1) that would be Marine.

2) No not at all. However your actions line up with that of a serial killer pretty well. The glorification of death is a horrible thing. You don't know the real weight of killing kid. Stop.

Umm no.

certainly looked like it.

1) that would be Marine.

2) No not at all. However your actions line up with that of a serial killer pretty well. The glorification of death is a horrible thing. You don't know the real weight of killing kid. Stop.
AAh i thought you were a marine I couldnt remember. So I should never hunt or kill again eh?

certainly looked like it.
Yes with the wink and giant smile it sure did.:rolleyes:

another personal threat?
Umm no.

AAh i thought you were a marine I couldnt remember.

the "USMC" should have been a hint.


So I should never hunt or kill again eh?

not until you:

1) have a purpose to it rather than simply killing for the sake of killing

and

2) increase your aim.

Yes with the wink and giant smile it sure did.:rolleyes:

well you already admitted to being a violent person. Why shouldn't i believe you?

Besides, a lot of serial killers enjoy killing. That smile looks creepy to me.

the "USMC" should have been a hint.
.
I didnt remember if that was the prefix of his name ok.

well you already admitted to being a violent person. Why shouldn't i believe you?

Besides, a lot of serial killers enjoy killing. That smile looks creepy to me.
:D That one?

Ok this is what happened... (Taken from IRC)
<Okie> see i was in the woods with my BB gun
<Okie> and i saw this bird swoop in
<Okie> so i shot at it
<Okie> and i crushed its left wing
<Okie> so it started hoppng around cuz it couldnt fly
<Okie> and you cant leave a bird like that to die
<Okie> so i chased it to kill it so it wouldnt suffer and die slowly
<Okie> but i shot it once and it was stil alive so i shot it three more times
<Okie> but it was still alive and it squeaked and looked to be in pain
<Okie> so i pumped my gun all 10 times and shot it in the head and got bird blood all over me :(
So... What is wrong with me?


when i was a youngster(10-12) we all had guns and tromped around the forest.
all the big kids and parents hunted for food(this is about 30 odd years ago)
as pre teens we wanted to emulate them.it is also human nature for most boys to exsperiance the hunt(probably in our dna)
we never shot anything because we made so much damn noise we scared all the animals away..lol
one day we are walking along,and to my utter amazement..a rabbit jumped out in front of me,about 5-10 feet away.so i shoulder my shotgun and shoot it.not really being a hunter,i did not aim for the head,but just pointed and shot.i shot the poor thing in half.
it made me sick to my stomach.
my buddy's older brother comes along and berates me for not shooting it in the head...and how i just wasted the fur and the meat.
i stopped hunting after that....still liked to shoot...but i just got into skeet and target shooting.
i did go with my uncle deer hunting for meat a few years later,saw a beautiful buck at about 50 yards,i had a 30-30 winchester...but couldnt shoot it.

i love shooting,but don't hunt....if i was hungry and had no food i would hunt.
hunting has it's place and i have no problem with hunting or pest control...just not my cup of tea i guess.
it is a valuable tool in population control of herds...but i just cant shoot animals,unless i was starving.

i almost shot a bear last year,but that was for self preservation.

i guess my dragged out point is,if it bothers you to shoot an animal,then dont...take up target shooting if you like shooting like me.

i felt equally conflicted like you feel now..thats how i dealt with it.

my 2 cents.

nothing anti hunting here..just i had a taste of it,and didn't like the taste.

and also,if you do shoot an animal...you should do so for the meat and fur only...killing for the sake of killing is unfathonable to me.
unless it is a predator and your in danger,or your doing pest control like rats and other such destructive animals.
(my best friend shoots moles and such at his farm because they cause alot of damage to his buildings and such..i have no problem with that either)

AAh i thought you were a marine I couldnt remember. So I should never hunt or kill again eh?

There can be purpose to a hunt. In some areas the deer population has to be controlled. It is regretable and the reason that the problem has risen is b/c of humans but it must be done regardless. To kill for no reason is one of the most unnatural things that you can do. If you don't need to kill something then don't do it. It's simple. I know that it might seem "cool" to you to have that power but it's really not.

So I should never hunt or kill again eh?

There are plenty of valid reasons to hunt, but you don't need to relish the animal's misfortune when you unintentionally cause pain. It's hard to believe you aren't doing exactly that by egging sensitive people on for 27 pages. If you're new to the internet, I can believe that you didn't anticipate the reaction you received here, but I do doubt that you're honestly morally conflicted.. you aren't completely lacking a moral compass, and even if you were, ten pages should've been enough to get a sample of others' opinions. I also don't quite believe this:

I onyl have .177 caliber pellets thats why it took so long to die

I've defended goats from coyotes with a .177 pellet, a pistol no less, and done away with a good number of gophers and rats to boot. Kinda hard to believe you aren't trying to stir up trouble, again.

Don't really bother all. He won't be replying, I fear (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519356). I suggest we all just let it die now. Continuing a discussion with only one side of it doesn't typically amount to much fun.

I think I can explain this thread.

I've talked with Okie for a few days on a Nationstates-related IRC channel. It's pretty obvious I have an affinity for birds, mind. So, the other day, we were goofing about, and I think I upset him with an entirely non-serious advance on his e-person.

I'm surmising he regaled the channel we share with this little story in the hopes of upsetting me and, finding that I wasn't there, pasted it in General for my later perusal.

So, while I'm quite heartened by the number of responses I see condemning Okie's actions (and a little vindicated by his subsequent banning), I suggest we all take this tale with a grain of salt. I suspect it's completely untrue, or at the very least grossly exaggerated.. though still, in my opinion, in bad taste.

That said, let the discussion continue.

As this thread has degenerated into attacks upon the original poster, and as the original poster is no longer about to defend himself, I'm locking the thread.

Overall? Not impressed by the standard of debate here, people. Far too much ad hominem.

~ Tsar the Mod.