NationStates Jolt Archive

The third holiest place in Islam and the place where our beloved Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) rose to heaven is under attack by the jews. Their construction and digging near and under it may cause to collapse by some estimates. A lot of people I have spoke to are afraid of what would happen if the mosque were to fall. I'm just wondering of what people on here think of the current situation.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/12/israel.holy.site.ap/index.html
edit:
wanted to provide another link with a different propective on this with less western/israel spin(imo)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9788945E-1CCA-43E3-B6BA-F9DEAD14D5C7.htm

The Zionists probably want to replace it with a military base, or a Synagogue that couples as a Bank too.

I say tear it down!

But the reason for that would to be put up a Abrahamic temple, where Jews, Muslims and Christians can worship.

No, it isn't worth the effort to reply. :eek:

I'm just wondering of what people on here think of the current situation.

That you're probably misrepresenting it, and that the article doesn't support the claim that the mosque is "under attack."

According to the article:

"The preparatory work is being carried out by Israeli archaeologists, who began carrying out an exploratory dig last week to ensure that no important remains are damaged when the walkway is built.

The new walkway is meant to replace an ancient earthen ramp that partially collapsed in a snowstorm three years ago. The project has drawn fierce protests from Palestinians and Arab countries, who accuse Israel of plotting to damage Muslim holy sites. Israel denies the charge, noting the work is about 50 yards (meters) from the compound."

and later..

"We don't want any problems here, this is a holy place for us as well."

That you're probably misrepresenting it, and that the article doesn't support the claim that the mosque is "under attack."

According to the article:

"The preparatory work is being carried out by Israeli archaeologists, who began carrying out an exploratory dig last week to ensure that no important remains are damaged when the walkway is built.

The new walkway is meant to replace an ancient earthen ramp that partially collapsed in a snowstorm three years ago. The project has drawn fierce protests from Palestinians and Arab countries, who accuse Israel of plotting to damage Muslim holy sites. Israel denies the charge, noting the work is about 50 yards (meters) from the compound."

and later..

"We don't want any problems here, this is a holy place for us as well."

Gotta love selective reading of some people :)

OMG TEH J00Z!!!!111!1111elevendyonez!1!11

"We don't want any problems here, this is a holy place for us as well."
Exactly. My knowledge of Jerusalem is a bit sketchy, but isn't the al-Aqsa Mosque built into the Temple Mount? Why would Jews want to partially destroy their own holy places just to spite Muslims?

a Synagogue that couples as a Bank too.

:rolleyes:

I say tear it down!


You do realise tearing it down would spark WW3 right? The holy sites in there are there for a reason because their locations are sigificant. You can't just all put them in the same place. For instance the location where the Mosque is, is not the place where christians believe Jesus(pbuh) was crucifed.

A place that holds such historic, cultural, and religious value should be preserved and protected. What's happening now is deplorable.

Repairing a walkway 50 meters from the mosque with the supervision of a team of archaeologists.. yeah, sounds like irreparable damage will be done to the mosque. Those jews just never quit, do they?

:rolleyes:

My thoughts exactly.

Gotta love selective reading of some people :)

I try and focus on the relevant facts. Paranoia isn't news to me.

Repairing a walkway 50 meters from the mosque with the supervision of a team of archaeologists.. yeah, sounds like irreparable damage will be done to the mosque. Those jews just never quit, do they?

I'll be honest, I didn't click the link before posting. *feels stupid*

You do realise tearing it down would spark WW3 right? The holy sites in there are there for a reason because their locations are sigificant. You can't just all put them in the same place. For instance the location where the Mosque is, is not the place where christians believe Jesus(pbuh) was crucifed.

Yes, but the jewish temple used to be there, and that is significant to both jews and christians.

Personally, i think holy sites are stupid anyways. Trying to contain God in a building. Ha.

BTW, how many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Qur'an?

It's disgusting what they're doing. No religion should be allowed to zone another religion's holy site. Imagine the uproar if Muslims were doing that to Jews!

Yes but the Romans destroyed the Temple, so it can't be holy for them anymore can it?

They are repairing a walkway that is used for taking visitors up to the compound, the "mugrabi's way". This walkway is in no way underneath or beside the supporting sturctures of the Mosque itself. You'll notice that in the article is says that ARCHEOLOGISTS are accompanying the exploratory excavations. Rest assured that any findings will be properly dealt with and studied by proffesionals, and that the structure of the walkway will be secured. Archeologists routinely accompany construction in Jerusalem, and always in the old city.

The same cannot be said for the extensive, unproffesional, and deliberately, hugely destructive digging that occured when the Wakf decided to clear Solomon's Stables beneath the temple mount compound several years ago. They removed large amounts of earth that had accumulated in the arched "stables" from ancient times without documenting, sifting, or studying it. This excavation, which destroyed priceless and unknown numbers of artefacts from the 2nd temple period had a clear political motive, and is a major crime against future generations that will never recover the finding destroyed there.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1131367056883&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
But Israeli archaeologists charged that the renovation work was being used a guise by the Wakf to expand a mosque just inside the compound.

"In the name of so-called renovations, the Wakf will expand the recently-constructed mosque at the Temple Mount," said committee spokeswoman and Hebrew University archaeologist Dr. Eilat Mazar, one of the signatories of the letter.

The latest controversy surrounding unsupervised Wakf work near Judaism's holiest site comes in the backdrop of the massive Wakf construction project carried out in the late 1990's at an underground architectural support of the Temple Mount known as the Solomon's Stables, which was illicitly converted into what is now the largest mosque in Israel.

Following the construction work, Wakf officials dumped more than 12,000 tons of earth, with history-rich artifacts, at a garbage dump outside the Old City, an action that the Antiquities Authority later called "an unprecedented archaeological crime."

The renewed dispute also brought back to the fore the lack of Israeli archaeological supervision at the site, nominally the job of the Antiquities Authority.

With violence flaring in the region, neither the government nor the antiquities authority have ever pressed for renewed archaeological inspection at the holy site, as required by law, and instead rely on police for reports of any unauthorized building at the bitterly contested site.



http://www.likud.nl/press21.htmlBulldozers have been carting away huge mounds of earth from underneath the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, one of the most revered sacred sites in the world, drawing the ire of Israeli archaeologists who say Muslim authorities are damaging the inside of the Mount's eastern retaining wall and destroying possibly priceless historical information in the process.

The furor stems from a construction project undertaken by the Waqf, the Muslim religious authority that controls the Temple Mount, to create a second entrance to the al-Marawani mosque, located under the southeastern quadrant of the Mount in an area popularly, but mistakenly, known as Solomon's Stables.

The huge underground mosque at times attracts thousands of worshipers, so there was no question that a second entryway was needed for safety reasons. But the Waqf's decision to simply haul material from the area and to dump it, in the dead of night, in the nearby Kidron Valley has been attacked as irresponsible destruction of an archaeological site.
Israeli archaeologists say the area should first have been subjected to a controlled excavation. Now personnel from the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) can only sift through the dump in the Kidron Valley in hopes of gaining some raw, but contextless, data about ancient Jerusalem.

Solomon's Stables served as a storehouse and stable in the 12th century A.D. for the Crusaders, who assumed that King Solomon had used the vaulted cavern in the same way. But the site actually dates to the reign of Herod the Great (37-4 B.C.), who greatly expanded the Temple precinct.

"It is one of the most important sites in the country, and they've gone at it with a bulldozer," Jon Seligman, Jerusalem region archaeologist for the IAA, told BAR. Seligman was appointed to his position at the very end of 1999, in the midst of the controversy.
"Dropped into the boiling oil," as he put it; though he had served as Jerusalem district archaeologist since 1994.

*gives some knee-jerk anti-jew response*

I'm sure Jews have something to do with this, right? I don't know, I don't feel like reading through the article...

It's disgusting what they're doing. No religion should be allowed to zone another religion's holy site. Imagine the uproar if Muslims were doing that to Jews!Quite the opposite. as I outlined in the above post, when ENORMOUS destructive digging and dumping was occuring in the temple mount itself, the Wakf's 'sovereignty' wasn't challenged (though I personally think it should have been) even though the archeological atefacts being dumped were from the 2nd temple period (Jewish kingdom era). This walkway is a trivial ramp and it's being constructed with the accompaniment of archeologists, OuTSIDE the temple mount compound, nowhere near the foundations of the al-aqsa mosque. I honestly do not know what the big fucking fuss is about, especially compared to the aforementioned willful, politically aimed desctruction.

Aren't they just repairing an old ramp to improve access to the mosque? And, for that matter, they've got archaeologists in tow; if anyone knows how to dig without damaging sites, especially ones hundreds or thousands of years old, it's archaeologists.

I think this is primarily fear caused by lack of information. Of course, it's up to the city to address that fear so that this project isn't impeded by it.

Yes, but the jewish temple used to be there, and that is significant to both jews and christians.

Personally, i think holy sites are stupid anyways. Trying to contain God in a building. Ha.

BTW, how many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Qur'an?

I wonder how much you mean that and how much you just want al-Aqsa to be taken down so the jews can build their little temple again and Jesus could come back as most Christians believe.

Given how important taking new name is in islam, shouldn't you get a new nation name that doesn't reflect your former worship of godless communism?

You do realise tearing it down would spark WW3 right? The holy sites in there are there for a reason because their locations are sigificant. You can't just all put them in the same place. For instance the location where the Mosque is, is not the place where christians believe Jesus(pbuh) was crucifed.

You do realize that the Mosque was built on the Temple Mount which is the Holeyest place in the Jewish religion?

so the jews can build their little temple again

There are numerous difficulties with building a Third Temple that extend far beyond the mere existence of the al-Aqsa Mosque.

You do realize that the Mosque was built on the Temple Mount which is the Holiest place in the Jewish religion?

I'm not sure that is true. The holiest place in the jewish religion was peripatetic for a long time before Solomon.

Though, you can't argue that the whole of jerusalem is part of the Land grant that god gave the jews.

There are numerous difficulties with building a Third Temple that extend far beyond the mere existence of the al-Aqsa Mosque.

Not to mention there would have to be another retcon of theology.

It could have sorted out a lot of problems if they just destroyed it in 1967. It's not like it could have sparked a war considering Israel had just won one.

You do realize that the Mosque was built on the Temple Mount which is the Holeyest place in the Jewish religion?

Er, the jews still have a wall of that temple they can pray at. There is no need for anyone to tear down al-Aqsa just to rebuild that temple.

Not to mention there would have to be another retcon of theology.

Actually, that was one of the difficulties I was thinking of.

There are also more practical ones, though - like the fact that it's not clear precisely where it was located, meaning that a religious body whose authority had more or less universal acceptance would have to decide... and no such religious body exists.

Given how important taking new name is in islam, shouldn't you get a new nation name that doesn't reflect your former worship of godless communism?

lol. I thought about that actually as it is rather odd, but it is just a forum posting name and I don't want to lose all my posts:p

Actually, that was one of the difficulties I was thinking of.

There are also more practical ones, though - like the fact that it's not clear precisely where it was located, meaning that a religious body whose authority had more or less universal acceptance would have to decide... and no such religious body exists.

See my earlier post about it being peripatetic. But it was on that hill I guess.


I would say an even greater problem is the fact that not all tribes are present, even foregoing the retcon problem,

lol. I thought about that actually as it is rather odd, but it is just a forum posting name and I don't want to lose all my posts:p

You could change and just put nation "formerly know" in UR sig.

What is your muslim name BTW.

I would say an even greater problem is the fact that not all tribes are present, even foregoing the retcon problem,

They dealt with that in the Second Temple era, they can deal with it today.

They are repairing a walkway that is used for taking visitors up to the compound, the "mugrabi's way". This walkway is in no way underneath or beside the supporting sturctures of the Mosque itself. You'll notice that in the article is says that ARCHEOLOGISTS are

But they are still JOOS! You know it's an ebil plot!

Exactly. My knowledge of Jerusalem is a bit sketchy, but isn't the al-Aqsa Mosque built into the Temple Mount? Why would Jews want to partially destroy their own holy places just to spite Muslims?

So they can fully rebuild the Temple.

They dealt with that in the Second Temple era, they can deal with it today.

Yah. Which also missed the ark too.

It's all feeble unless the tribes can be found.

You could change and just put nation "formerly know" in UR sig.
I might do that, get something more fitting.

What is your muslim name BTW.

I don't have one actually since my name is not against Islam. I would change it if my name was Christopher or something, which I think means "servant of Christ". If I had to pick one it would be Ubaydah meaning "servant of God" or Jabir "restorer" as I feel my life as been restored since coming to Islam.

link if you are interested.http://www.convertstoislam.com/NewName/newname.html

3,500th post woot!

Actually, that was one of the difficulties I was thinking of.

There are also more practical ones, though - like the fact that it's not clear precisely where it was located, meaning that a religious body whose authority had more or less universal acceptance would have to decide... and no such religious body exists.
They have to find the red heifer too. The sacrifices and so forth would pose huge issues (halackic, and practical). The whole culture of the sheloshah regalim can't really be re-invented.

All this aside from the obvious impossibility of the physical project itself. Whatever. No one is arguing over building a temple on the temple mount (except for a few crazies). The issue is recognizing that the mount is holy and historically important for both Jews and Muslims, and respecting that. There has been very little of this respect on the part of the Waqf, unfortunately, leading to great destruction.

BTW, how many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Qur'an?

"Al Quds" / Jerusalem is not that holy a place for Islam. There was a time during Muhammed's period when he made them pray towards Jerusalem, but when he realised that the Jews will never accept him as a prophet, he chose Mecca instead and made it as the holy city.

For instance the location where the Mosque is, is not the place where christians believe Jesus(pbuh) was crucifed.

Jesus was (according to the Bible) Cricified at Golgotha(sp?).

I say tear it down!
But the reason for that would to be put up a Abrahamic temple, where Jews, Muslims and Christians can worship.But Abraham was no Jew, Muslim, or Christian, and he did not worship what they now worship. You would just have set up any temple.

I would have the entire platform removed and its layers thoroughly analyzed.

"Al Quds" / Jerusalem is not that holy a place for Islam. There was a time during Muhammed's period when he made them pray towards Jerusalem, but when he realised that the Jews will never accept him as a prophet, he chose Mecca instead and made it as the holy city.Jerusalem is still the third holiest place in Islam. And iirr Muhammad chose Mecca as the prayer direction as soon as he had declared the local Kaaba there the symbol of god's covenant and interaction with human.

Yah. Which also missed the ark too. Yah missed the ark? ?? Some claim that Menyelek brought it to (today's) Ethiopia when his supposed father Jedidiyah (Solomon) was still alive..

It's all feeble unless the tribes can be found.Why? A temple is just a building. Why would it require any tribes? There is no tribe left today, if you refer to the Israelite ones...

So they can fully rebuild the Temple.
They could anyways. There is more than enough room between the Al-Aqsa and the Shrine of the Rock, and it would be some meters above the spot where the first temple stood.

See my earlier post about it being peripatetic. But it was on that hill I guess.


I would say an even greater problem is the fact that not all tribes are present, even foregoing the retcon problem,

The problem with finding places in Israel is that over 2000 years, the geography has changed hugely. For example, a hill that was around in 70AD may have eroded down and absorbed into a second nearby hill. Simarily, the place most widely believed to be the site of the Baptism of Christ is on the banks of the Jordan River, despite the fact that that river was diverted several miles east in 1967.

Oh for God's sake. Some Israelites decide to renovate a ramp and the Muslims start to get jittery over whether they're going to rebuild the Temple and nuke Mecca. Looks like the entire population of the region needs something for hypertension.

Maybe the whole situation of the Temple mount and the Muslim ownership of it will be resolved like the Soviet Union: eventually one side will gradually crumble without a major war.

Oh for God's sake. Some Israelites decide to renovate a ramp and the Muslims start to get jittery over whether they're going to rebuild the Temple and nuke Mecca. Looks like the entire population of the region needs something for hypertension.

Maybe the whole situation of the Temple mount and the Muslim ownership of it will be resolved like the Soviet Union: eventually one side will gradually crumble without a major war.Israelis are not Israelites. And please leave any god out of it.
And I suppose that one day the Israeli side will crumble. No regime built on injustice and aggression can last forever.

There's nothing holy about Jerusalem or anything in it. A millenia of bloodshed has washed away any meaning that crust of dirt ever had. I say tear the whole thing down and put in waterslides. Everybody likes waterslides. :)

Israelis are not Israelites. And please leave any god out of it. Many Israelis are Israelites, though. Jews, that is, although if you want to get picky I suppose they could be Judaeans.
And I suppose that one day the Israeli side will crumble. No regime built on injustice and aggression can last forever. Which is exactly why the pygmies have won over Bantu Africans, the Amerindians beat back the white colonists, the Celts rule Britain, and the Jews still have their second temple?

In any case Israel is most likely here to stay. Good thing too, given it's the only country in the region which doesn't seem to be crazed. I'm not some kind of apologist but it's no wonder America has ties with Israel, given its liberal democratic status.

In any case Israel is most likely here to stay. Good thing too, given it's the only country in the region which doesn't seem to be crazed.

http://www.gamestar.de/community/gspinboard/images/smilies/atomrofl.gif

http://www.gamestar.de/community/gspinboard/images/smilies/atomrofl.gif http://xs76.xs.to/pics/06153/cat-scream.jpg

Nyaaah! Images do not show up? Whyhy!!!!

The Zionists probably want to replace it with a military base, or a Synagogue that couples as a Bank too.

And you claim you're not an anti-Semite. :rolleyes: I'm guessing you regard the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the authoritative work on Judaism.

http://www.gamestar.de/community/gspinboard/images/smilies/atomrofl.gif

Maybe he should have said "Israel is less crazed than everyone else in the region. ;)

Damn.. Sometimes it's hard for an atheist to look at all the senseless bickering without screaming. Anyway, if LGs suggestion doesn't work, I suggest the lot of you pick up mallets & beat eachother to death. Seems to be the only thing you're interested in anyway, so why the fuck not. I sure as hell won't miss you orthodox wankers. All you touch turns to shit, violence & hatred.

Maybe he should have said "Israel is less crazed than everyone else in the region. ;)

Slightly.

Anybody who sends helicopter gunships to blow up an eighty year old blind deaf guy in a wheelchair while at his morning prayer and then claims it was 'justified' is not playing with a full deck. :p

But I suppose when nobody else is playing with a full deck, having 49 cards is pretty damn good. :)

Maybe he should have said "Israel is less crazed than everyone else in the region. ;)everyone else in the region doesn't keep occupied territories.

It's always puzzled me why religious people get so worked up about material things that they claim are holy... I always got the impression that religion was meant to more about spirituality than materialism. I guess I was wrong.

I can understand protecting a building because it's historically significant or beautiful.

There's nothing holy about Jerusalem or anything in it. A millenia of bloodshed has washed away any meaning that crust of dirt ever had. I say tear the whole thing down and put in waterslides. Everybody likes waterslides. :)

Thats the best idea I've heard yet!

It's always puzzled me why religious people get so worked up about material things that they claim are holy... I always got the impression that religion was meant to more about spirituality than materialism. I guess I was wrong.That's why there was not need for Jews to go to Palestine in the first place. They just could have pursued a place for their weird religion and rituals in western Pennsylvania as well.

I hope nothing bad happens to it, because if something did, every Muslim on the planet would be pissed beyond imagination (and rightfully so), and the world certainly doesn't need that.

everyone else in the region doesn't keep occupied territories.

Saudi Arabia annexed Nejd and the Hejaz. Unlike Saudi Arabia, Israel took the land they took while defending themselves against a genocidal aggressor. They've returned much of the land they took in exchange for peace and they're offering more, just as soon as Hamas agree to recognise Israel and renounce violence.

Slightly.

Anybody who sends helicopter gunships to blow up an eighty year old blind deaf guy in a wheelchair while at his morning prayer and then claims it was 'justified' is not playing with a full deck. :p

But I suppose when nobody else is playing with a full deck, having 49 cards is pretty damn good. :)

I never said I agreed with everything (or even most things) that Israel do, but compared to the rest of the region they're pretty good. :D

Saudi Arabia annexed Nejd and the Hejaz. Unlike Saudi Arabia, Israel took the land they took while defending themselves against a genocidal aggressor. They've returned much of the land they took in exchange for peace and they're offering more, just as soon as Hamas agree to recognise Israel and renounce violence.How can you possibly defend anything that did not even exist prior to the "defense" ?

The third holiest place in Islam and the place where our beloved Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) rose to heaven is under attack by the jews. Their construction and digging near and under it may cause to collapse by some estimates. A lot of people I have spoke to are afraid of what would happen if the mosque were to fall. I'm just wondering of what people on here think of the current situation.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/12/israel.holy.site.ap/index.html
edit:
wanted to provide another link with a different propective on this with less western/israel spin(imo)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9788945E-1CCA-43E3-B6BA-F9DEAD14D5C7.htm

Fucking nuke it! Bloody rag-head religious nutters.:upyours:

The third holiest place in Islam and the place where our beloved Prophet Mohammed(pbuh)...

He isn't and wasn't a prophet. They weren't needed after Jesus, the Holy Son of God, came to earth.

There isn't actually mention of bulldozing the Mosque, however, I daresay certain Israelis want to.

There isn't actually mention of bulldozing the Mosque, however, I daresay certain Israelis want to.

actually, you are wrong. No one wants another war there.


All that the stupid Israeli government did was to repair a fucking damaged ramp. The muslims should have done that themselves but didn't out of lazyness.
They should be greatful, for fuck's sakes!

That's why there was not need for Jews to go to Palestine in the first place. They just could have pursued a place for their weird religion and rituals in western Pennsylvania as well. Actually the founders of Zionism did consider setting up shop in Argentina.

In Israel you can say whatever you like about any religion and if you immigrate there you can enjoy a high standard of living. Israel is better than any other country in the region (notice the qualifier - better does not equal good or perfect!).

If you want to blame someone for its existence, blame the British empire. But the Jews have as much as right to a homeland as anyone else.

Plus I have Israeli music on now, and it's great.

actually, you are wrong. No one wants another war there.


All that the stupid Israeli government did was to repair a fucking damaged ramp. The muslims should have done that themselves but didn't out of lazyness.
They should be greatful, for fuck's sakes!

hmmm.....

I daresay there are Israelis who would like nothing more than to fight a full blown war against their neighbours, however, is repairing a ramp all they are doing?

Actually the founders of Zionism did consider setting up shop in Argentina.

In Israel you can say whatever you like about any religion and if you immigrate there you can enjoy a high standard of living. Israel is better than any other country in the region (notice the qualifier - better does not equal good or perfect!).

If you want to blame someone for its existence, blame the British empire. But the Jews have as much as right to a homeland as anyone else.

Plus I have Israeli music on now, and it's great.

the Muslims in Israel have pretty much the same rights as the jews. Israel is a democracy, so yeah, probably the Muslims in Israel have more rigts than in any Muslim country in that area.

I think this is primarily fear caused by lack of information. Of course, it's up to the city to address that fear so that this project isn't impeded by it.

Willfull fear mongering, methinks. Starting the works on a Friday was a bad idea, that being said. Best just do it Sunday-Thursday and the more discrete the better.

hmmm.....

I daresay there are Israelis who would like nothing more than to fight a full blown war against their neighbours, however, is repairing a ramp all they are doing?

and you know that because... that is what the media tells you?

maybe you should consider educating yourself more on an issue before speaking. It helps, considerably.

Willfull fear mongering, methinks. Starting the works on a Friday was a bad idea, that being said. Best just do it Sunday-Thursday and the more discrete the better.

actually, I would call that war mongering, but that is just me.

Actually the founders of Zionism did consider setting up shop in Argentina.

In Israel you can say whatever you like about any religion and if you immigrate there you can enjoy a high standard of living. Israel is better than any other country in the region (notice the qualifier - better does not equal good or perfect!).

If you want to blame someone for its existence, blame the British empire. But the Jews have as much as right to a homeland as anyone else.

Plus I have Israeli music on now, and it's great.
QFT
hmmm.....

I daresay there are Israelis who would like nothing more than to fight a full blown war against their neighbours, however, is repairing a ramp all they are doing?
WTF are you talking about? Are you saying that there's an evil Israeli plot to plant bombs in the ramp to the mosque or something?

How can you possibly defend anything that did not even exist prior to the "defense" ?

Actually, the war started 3 days after Israel was created, therefore it did exist :)

and you know that because... that is what the media tells you?

maybe you should consider educating yourself more on an issue before speaking. It helps, considerably.

I'm not suggesting they are a majority, but they do exist. Admittedly, documentaries do tend to find a peculiar brand of wierdos, but I've seen several Israelis who quite like the idea of a convential war.

Back to topic, who the fuck decided to start the work on a Friday?

Normally I just read through this forum...

You know that for like 75% of what you guys wrote, I would end up in prison for saying it in this country...


It's always puzzled me why religious people get so worked up about material things that they claim are holy... I always got the impression that religion was meant to more about spirituality than materialism. I guess I was wrong.

I can understand protecting a building because it's historically significant or beautiful.

^The only reasonable comment in this ridiculous thread

Israel took the land they took while defending themselves against a genocidal aggressor. They've returned much of the land they took in exchange for peace and they're offering more, just as soon as Hamas agree to recognise Israel and renounce violence.

Always one, isn't there.....

We'll ignore the "genocial aggressor" nonsense for the moment. Here -

"Olmert also said he would seek to keep three large blocs of Jewish settlements in central areas of the West Bank, which Palestinians want as part of a future state, called Maale Adumim, Ariel, and Gush Etzion. And he vowed to build Jewish housing in a West Bank area east of Jerusalem known as E-1, a longstanding Israeli plan to consolidate control of the area that is on hold because US officials say it violates a settlement-building freeze that is part of the ''road map" peace plan." (my bold)
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/03/10/with_lead_in_israels_polls_kadima_lays_out_plans/?page=1

Holding on to large sections of the West Bank. And then theres the various efforts to grab as much of Arab East Jerusalem as possible.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/03/10/with_lead_in_israels_polls_kadima_lays_out_plans/?page=1

I'm not suggesting they are a majority, but they do exist. Admittedly, documentaries do tend to find a peculiar brand of wierdos, but I've seen several Israelis who quite like the idea of a convential war.

Back to topic, who the fuck decided to start the work on a Friday?

there are weirdos everywhere. And documentaries are rarely impartial... those who control information control opinion.

Most israelis, as I know them ( I travel to Israel frequently for business :( )want to live their lives in peace ... and I daresay most of the sensible Arabs in that area want the same thing.

Always one, isn't there.....

We'll ignore the "genocial aggressor" nonsense for the moment. Here -

"Olmert also said he would seek to keep three large blocs of Jewish settlements in central areas of the West Bank, which Palestinians want as part of a future state, called Maale Adumim, Ariel, and Gush Etzion. And he vowed to build Jewish housing in a West Bank area east of Jerusalem known as E-1, a longstanding Israeli plan to consolidate control of the area that is on hold because US officials say it violates a settlement-building freeze that is part of the ''road map" peace plan." (my bold)
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/03/10/with_lead_in_israels_polls_kadima_lays_out_plans/?page=1

Holding on to large sections of the West Bank. And then theres the various efforts to grab as much of Arab East Jerusalem as possible.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/03/10/with_lead_in_israels_polls_kadima_lays_out_plans/?page=1

Isn't it pretty much standard procedure to keep the lands one conquered in war? Just asking, ya know

actually, I would call that war mongering, but that is just me.


"war mongering" would be Bush/Iran. This is some fuckwit stirring up a people who will die in droves to no end with no hope of success or legtiamate cause behind them. "war" is too dignified a term to grace it with.

Always one, isn't there.....

[QUOTE]We'll ignore the "genocial aggressor" nonsense for the moment. Here -
Why ignore it?
What exactly do you call someone that has as his main purpose destroying a state and the complete annihilation of an entire population?

That is the whole fucking purpose as most of these organizations ( hamas, Hizbollah, etc), from day one. Stated loud and clear.
Why would you downplay a declaration of intention as clear as that?

[QUOTE=Nodinia;12339604]Always one, isn't there.....


Why ignore it?
What exactly do you call someone that has as his main purpose destroying a state and the complete annihilation of an entire population?

That is the whole fucking purpose as most of these organizations ( hamas, Hizbollah, etc), from day one. Stated loud and clear.
Why would you downplay a declaration of intention as clear as that?


He's referring to the 1967 invasion. There were no plans for death camps, gas chambers or mass executions that I was aware of, nor have any been presented.

"war mongering" would be Bush/Iran. This is some fuckwit stirring up a people who will die in droves to no end with no hope of success or legtiamate cause behind them. "war" is too dignified a term to grace it with.


They do have hope of success. 200 million Arabs versus 7 million Jews? As far as war mongering goes... it's been happening there for fucking ever...

Why It Would Be a Catastrophe to Solve the Arab-Israel Conflict
By Rael Jean Isaac
There is no more widely believed proposition in world politics today than that solving the Arab-Israel conflict would contribute to world peace as nothing else could. It doesn't matter where you stand on the conflict. Republicans and Democrats, Western European democratic leaders and Arab despots, the EU, the UN, Israeli leaders, Jews of the world - for all of them, solving the Arab-Israel conflict is the holy grail.


Merely to breathe life into the hope suffices to win a Nobel Peace Prize. No other conflict has garnered so many prizes. The first went to Ralph Bunche in 1950 for working on the Arab-Israel armistice that produced the Green Line, Israel's de facto border until 1967. In 1978 Sadat and Begin received the prize for Camp David and the peace treaty with Egypt (in practice, another armistice, given Egypt's failure to honor most of its provisions). In 1994 it went to Arafat, Peres and Rabin for bringing peace via Oslo.


Those were the ones purely for Arab-Israel peace. But there were a number of others where the Nobel Committee cited contributions to Arab-Israel peace: for example in giving the Prize to Canada's Lester Pearson in 1957 the Nobel Committee said that as a result of his efforts "The Palestinian problem was actually put to rest for some time" UN Secretary General Dag Hammarskjold who got the Prize in 1961 was cited for "easing tension" between Israel and neighboring Arab states. In 1988 the Nobel peace prize went to the UN Peacekeeping Forces - created to keep the peace between Egypt and Israel after the 1956 war. And most recently in 2002 Jimmy Carter got the Nobel. True that was presumably a reward for his anti-Bush stance, but the major achievement the Nobel Committee cited was Camp David. That's seven Nobel peace prizes in whole or part for solving the Arab Israel conflict. Yet the conflict remains as healthy as ever.

Why so much emphasis on this one conflict in a world awash with them? The reason is the perception that it is at the root of all the dysfunction in the Middle East. In a way this has been a comforting proposition to Western leaders. It's something to fall back on when their policies in the region fail; in fact, it could be argued it's the litmus test of their failure when leaders focus on the need to solve the Arab-Israel conflict. This is precisely what is happening now.


The effort to bring about a stable, unified, democratic Iraq is clearly in deep trouble. Under fire for his support of the Iraq war, Tony Blair has been telling any audience he can find that the Israel-Palestinian problem is at the heart of the conflicts in the Middle East and solving it is the key to solving all other Middle East problems. He said this to the Iraq Study Group, he told it to a Washington Post interviewer, and he even said it on Al Jazeera's new English language TV channel in an interview with David Frost. Tasked with coming up with a solution in Iraq or at least a way out, the Iraq Study Group proposed a conference to solve the Arab-Israel conflict. There were 78 other proposals, but this was clearly the pièce de résistance.


When the Iraq Study Group proposals, hugely hyped before their publication, fell flat, a former national security adviser (to Presidents Ford and the first President Bush), apparently feeling the problem was the plethora of recommendations, rode to the rescue in a January 4 New York Times op-ed. He boiled the 79 suggestions down to one: solve the Arab-Israel conflict. According to Brent Scowcroft, at that point

"American allies like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States would be liberated to assist in stabilizing Iraq."
And while the Bush administration has not adopted the Iraq Study Group's recommendation for using Israeli concessions as a carrot to induce Syria and Iran to limit their participation in the mayhem in Iraq, in his address to the nation on January 10 President Bush promised "urgent diplomacy...to help bring peace to the Middle East."


On Condoleezza Rice's latest whirlwind trip through the Middle East, according to a January 15 AP report, Arab officials proposed a broad bargain they dubbed "Iraq for Land," i.e. Israeli land in return for their help in stabilizing Iraq. (Given that Iran is the key player, backing both Shiite militias and Sunni jihadists, it is hard to see what leverage the Sunni states offering this "bargain" have.)


In Iraq, with little fanfare or notice, the Kurds, 20% of the population, have opted out of the state. They have their own army, customs officials, education system, language and flag. Peter Galbraith provides a telling incident in his recent book The End of Iraq. The Kurds, to show their friendship for the United States, wanted to throw a party for the Americans in honor of the Fourth of July. American officials said they'd be happy to attend, but only if an Iraqi flag flew over the building. The Kurds refused to budge - the flag of Iraq is anathema throughout Kurdistan. So there was no Fourth of July Party.


A skeptic may say, very well. It's clear the Arab-Israel conflict is more likely to produce peace prizes than peace. And pretending that solving it would solve other unrelated problems is indeed a cop-out by those who know that pushing Israel around is a lot easier than achieving Western goals in the Muslim world. But why claim that actually solving the Arab-Israel conflict would be a catastrophe? A catastrophe not only for Israel but for the U.S. and for Judeo-Christian civilization as a whole.


Let's begin with Israel where it is not hard to see why solving the Arab-Israel conflict spells catastrophe. The only way Israel can achieve peace is to disappear. The Arabs make that clear, no matter how much the rest of the world and indeed the Israelis shut their ears. The Hamas government on Israel's border makes that crystal clear, without any of the peace-in-English, war-in-Arabic obfuscations of the Arafat era. The conflict is not about territory occupied since 1967, but about all the territory Israel occupies.


What is less obvious is that for Israel even the process of trying to achieve peace is catastrophic. Even those dubious of such efforts may not recognize this - in fact they may think that by constantly striving to reach a peace agreement, the Jewish state shows the world that Israel is willing to make major sacrifices for peace while it is the Arabs who refuse all reasonable compromise. But the damage far outweighs whatever small good such brownie points may do Israel. That is because once elected Israeli leaders hold up the promise that peace can be achieved, they are impelled to act in ways that supposedly will advance it. In 1992 the Labor Party, led by Yitzhak Rabin, defeated the long ascendant Likud with the promise that if elected, it would achieve peace within the year. Labor leaders then felt they had to produce something quickly. The result was the catastrophic Oslo agreement. Should Israel be destroyed, historians will surely find that a major turning point.


At election time, from then on, leaders of both parties would continue to offer voters the same promise. In his victorious campaign against Shimon Peres in 1996 Netanyahu promised to bring peace. What he delivered was another retreat sealed and delivered at the Wye conference. Barak promised to bring peace. He virtually offered Arafat the territorial store, even including a limited Arab right of return: for his pains he obtained a renewed Arab Intifada, far more lethal than the first. Sharon promised to bring peace. He delivered the so-called "disengagement," a euphemism for the destruction of Israel's Gaza settlements. As a direct result rockets have rained steadily on Israeli communities in the south while the army brass and politicians alike have shrugged and told angry residents, there's nothing we can do, live with it. Hamas tells the Jews of Sderot, the hardest hit community, that the only solution for them is to evacuate the town. Hamas briefly offered a truce (predictably, it did not hold up) but even the way the truce was offered was a form of escalation: the Hamas government announced that if Israel had not gone back to the 1949 borders within 6 months, it would embark on all out war.


In short, the promises of peace have delivered only Israeli retreats, escalating Arab demands, greater Arab self-confidence, declining Israeli morale, greater Israeli vulnerability. Israeli leaders share the blame with the Israeli public. The leaders fail to rally the public for the challenge of confronting unrelenting Arab hostility. They tell voters what the majority wants to hear. For this reason Israeli Nobel Prize winner in Economics Robert Aumann says the average Israeli is equally responsible. Says Aumann:

"Jews are so desperate for peace that we run around in a frenzy, we can't wait, we expel people from their homes in an unprecedented act of barbarism, self-hatred and stupidity. We fall all over ourselves with anxiety and self-hatred."
Despite the failure over and over again, of retreat and concessions, Israeli leaders, seemingly gripped by a form of obsessive-compulsive behavior, come up with more of the same. In the wake of the IDF's humiliation by Hezbollah in Lebanon, Olmert briefly said his "convergence" plan (to do to Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria what was done to Jewish communities in Gaza) had been put aside, but it is already being revived. Some members of the cabinet talk optimistically of relinquishing the Golan to Syria. Can Israeli leaders possibly expect a different outcome this time? More likely they are so bankrupt of ideas, so lacking in fortitude, so morally exhausted, that they can think of no alternative but yet more retreats. And so the broken record scratches over and over again on the same groove. In short, it is difficult to dispute that even the search for peace has had catastrophic consequences for Israel.


But what about the United States and the Western world? Why should Arab-Israel peace be catastrophic for them? Let's look for a moment at the analysis and expectations of those who see Arab-Israel peace as the key to solving the myriad problems and conflicts of the Middle East. As they see it, it was the creation of Israel that roiled the slumbering waters of the Middle East, producing the fury, the frustration, the sense of humiliation and injustice that keeps the area seething. In this view the bitterly anti-Western attitudes of the man on the Arab street derive from resentment of the West for forcing a Jewish state upon Arab lands, displacing Arab peoples, all this because of the Holocaust, a Western sin. The continuing rage feeds regional instability as Arab masses fasten on a series of bad actors who exploit that rage, a Nasser, a Saddam Hussein, an Osama bin Laden. Now, the highest bidder yet has emerged, Iran's Ahmadinejad, who promises a nuclear Armageddon. And so, according to this scenario, if the problem of Israel could only be solved to Muslim/Arab satisfaction, all the most intractable problems posed by the region would melt away. The Arab sense of grievance toward the West would dissolve. No more planes into New York towers. No more bombs on London tubes. Arab leaders reinforce this view of the situation, repeating endlessly to their Western counterparts that the Arab-Israel conflict is the root cause of every Middle Eastern debacle.


How then to solve it? Some Western leaders, and one must acknowledge the idealism of a Tony Blair or President Bush, believe that if only the right formula is devised, Palestinian Arabs will live contentedly side by side with Israel, and Arab rhetoric to the contrary is just that, rhetoric. However there are plenty of realists out there, Baker surely among them, who realize that peace means the end of Israel and figure that's a good thing too. As they see it, as long as Israel exists in any borders it's an irritant; and it is only after it is gone that the Middle East will be a new slate on which good relations with the West can be written.


What about this analysis, in either its idealistic or realist version? It's not wholly wrong. It's clearly true that the Arab-Israel conflict woke the Arabs up to their impotence. Incredible to the Arab mind, five Arab armies, supremely confident of driving the Jews into the sea, were beaten by what they viewed as a small ragtag community of despised Jews, many of them the beaten down survivors of concentration camps. For the Arab world it was immensely traumatic, and the trouncing of Arab armies two decades later, in 1967, only reinforced the trauma.


But the trouble with the analysis is that for the Arabs, and indeed the broader Muslim world, Israel is a small part of the problem. The core problem is their abject inferiority to the West in both power and cultural influence. They would have woken up to this, admittedly in less dramatic fashion, without Israel. Yes, the Muslim world longs to extirpate the little Satan, but much of that world now feels itself ready to take on the Great Satan, to restore the Caliphate, to embark on a global jihad to win the world for Allah.


The Muslim world is in a much stronger position than it was in 1948, with a realistic prospect of taking over much of Europe demographically, from within. And however stubbornly the realists may balk at recognizing this reality, if the West delivers up the little Satan, it will only increase its own danger and vulnerability. That's because Israel's demise would be perceived as a huge victory for the Islamists.


Possessed of a strong sense of religious and cultural superiority, the Arab world for decades looked to one nostrum after another to restore it to glory, to cure its "humiliation" by Western power. Some looked to Soviet Communism; that romance petered out. Then there was pan-Arabism, epitomized by Nasser, involving such short-lived experiments as the 1958 union between Syria and Egypt (Syria pulled out in 1961) and the 1971 Federation of Libya, Egypt and Syria (which also expired within two years). As it became apparent that lip service was all that Arab governments were prepared to offer, the enthusiasm for Pan-Arabism waned. What has replaced it is the presumption that the triumph of a pure Islam is the tool to restore worldwide Muslim preeminence. For the West the worst possible outcome would be if the Islamists, whose goals go way beyond the pan-Arabists, were to prove they had found the path that works.


Bin Laden has repeatedly stated his belief that Islam defeated one of the two great powers in Afghanistan. He is convinced the other is weak and without will, a belief the vigorous U.S. response in the wake of 9/11 only temporarily undermined. To the Muslim world Israel and the U.S. are umbilically tied. Many in the West may know that along with political and economic support Israel has been at the receiving end of much U.S. political pressure to bow to Arab demands. But that's not how the Muslim world sees it. The destruction of Israel would be seen as a huge defeat for the U.S. There could be nothing more likely to produce the wreck of U.S. interests and policies throughout the Middle East, no greater boost for the Islamists in encouraging them to pursue their larger war against Judeo-Christian civilization.


If solving the Arab-Israel problem is the path to perdition, what policies can productively be pursued in respect to the Middle East? Deterrence? Exploiting divisions within Islam? Military action? Supporting internal dissidents within individual countries? Sharply curtailing Muslim immigration to the West? A crash program to develop non-mid East energy sources? A combination of these? Other possibilities? We are in for a long struggle against a resurgent Islam and there are no Five Easy Steps to End the Islamic Threat. This said, it is past time for some genuine realism to be brought to bear in thinking about the problems of the Middle East, not the false kind James Baker represents. Putting the idea of solving the Arab Israel conflict in the diplomatic trash bin should be the first order of business.

sorry, I lost the link and I am lazy

[QUOTE=Shreetolv;12339618]


He's referring to the 1967 invasion. There were no plans for death camps, gas chambers or mass executions that I was aware of, nor have any been presented.


just the openly stated one to "throw all the Jews into the sea" if my memory server

[QUOTE=Nodinia;12339621]


just the openly stated one to "throw all the Jews into the sea" if my memory server They all seem quite determined to throw each other into the sea over there, indeed. Perhaps LG's idea regarding waterslides wouldn't go amiss.

They do have hope of success. 200 million Arabs versus 7 million Jews? As far as war mongering goes... it's been happening there for fucking ever...

200 million Palestinians have access to Arab East Jerusalem for prayers on a Friday?



sorry, I lost the link and I am lazy

Debate by large c&p is usually frowned upon in forums.

there are weirdos everywhere. And documentaries are rarely impartial... those who control information control opinion.

Most israelis, as I know them ( I travel to Israel frequently for business :( )want to live their lives in peace ... and I daresay most of the sensible Arabs in that area want the same thing.

I suppose so, but equally, just as there are hawks within the USA, so to they will exist in Israel.

200 million Palestinians have access to Arab East Jerusalem for prayers on a Friday?



hmmm... what IS a Palestinian anyway?

hmmm... what IS a Palestinian anyway?

Thanks for acknowledging that you misread by post, albeit via sudden goal post shift.

Thanks for acknowledding that you misread by post, albeit via sudden goal post shift.

well, it depends. We cannot look at this conflict without placing it into context, and we both know that should a conflict arise again, it is 200 million Arabs versus 7 million jews.

And what is a Palestinian? Seriously? Technically speaking, Palestinians are the people born in the Palestine province of the British Empire.


You see, at the time when the (so called) Palestinians claim to have been chased out of Israel ( some data says otherwise), a lot of Jews were chased out of the surrounding Arab countries. In similar numbers.

Mind you, Israel took them in. Those lovely and brotherloving Arab nations left their own to rot in camps... which is quite useful if you want to use said people as a political pawn against Israel, you know?

If let's accept that the state of Palestine is created, don't the Arab states owe Israel a lot of compensation for taking their citizens in? Just asking.

And no, I will not say everything is shiny and pink in Israel. The country is being ran by a religious minority, and the difference from Iran is ... not as big as most Israelis would like it to be.

I might be Jewish ( by a technicality anyway), but this still looks kinda stinky from both ends... The problem is that the way this debate in the international media is very far from the way it is framed on spot... where people die.

Because you and I can argue here until kingdom come, but I am pretty sure none of us lives with the fear of attack at every turn, like the Israelis do.

There is zero chance this will undermine the mosque. This is just fearmongering bullshit.

There is zero chance this will undermine the mosque. This is just fearmongering bullshit.


A-MEN

well, it depends. We cannot look at this conflict without placing it into context, and we both know that should a conflict arise again, it is 200 million Arabs versus 7 million jews. Don't forget that the 7 million Jews can count on the support of the USA and probably a whole lot of other powerful nations.

And what is a Palestinian? Seriously? Technically speaking, Palestinians are the people born in the Palestine province of the British Empire. A secessionist. You may as well ask what a Northern Irish Republican is.

And no, I will not say everything is shiny and pink in Israel. The country is being ran by a religious minority, and the difference from Iran is ... not as big as most Israelis would like it to be. I thought Jews were a majority in Israel?

well, it depends. We cannot look at this conflict without placing it into context, and we both know that should a conflict arise again, it is 200 million Arabs versus 7 million jews. .

But its the Al Aqsa mosque we're talking about, and its the Palestinians who attend Friday prayers who are the ones most likely to get gunned down over a walkway, is it not?


And what is a Palestinian? Seriously? Technically speaking, Palestinians are the people born in the Palestine province of the British Empire..

Many referred to Palestine as a nationality before WW1. However....


You see, at the time when the (so called) Palestinians claim to have been chased out of Israel ( some data says otherwise), a lot of Jews were chased out of the surrounding Arab countries. In similar numbers...

Actually it was over 20 years and about 800,000. Some fled, some migrated, some were forced out with a mob at their heels.


Mind you, Israel took them in. Those lovely and brotherloving Arab nations left their own to rot in camps... which is quite useful if you want to use said people as a political pawn against Israel, you know?...

And this justifies Israels occupation of the West Bank how, precisely?


If let's accept that the state of Palestine is created, don't the Arab states owe Israel a lot of compensation for taking their citizens in? Just asking.
..

I'm sure theres a few decades of legal debate as to who owes what to who. I think it fair to say that the Palestsinians should have a state, regardless.

Don't forget that the 7 million Jews can count on the support of the USA and probably a whole lot of other powerful nations.

*trying to remember where wa sthat support last summer*
A secessionist. You may as well ask what a Northern Irish Republican is.

Not quite.

I thought Jews were a majority in Israel?

Jews are. However the country is being ran by the religious ones (Orthodox), which are a minority... and fuck stuff up for the rest. Most Israelis are not really religious.

*trying to remember where wa sthat support last summer* The Israelis managed to fuck up Lebanon without outside help.

Not quite. Expliquez-vous, s'il vous plais?

Jews are. However the country is being ran by the religious ones (Orthodox), which are a minority... and fuck stuff up for the rest. Most Israelis are not really religious. Ah right, so the leaders don't think the way the populace does. That shows that they definitely are a secular democracy!

But its the Al Aqsa mosque we're talking about, and its the Palestinians who attend Friday prayers who are the ones most likely to get gunned down over a walkway, is it not?

This is not a local conflict. And no one gunned down the Muslims praying there just because they prayed there.



Many referred to Palestine as a nationality before WW1. However....

a nationality = specific ethnicity and specific language... doesn't quite qualify



Actually it was over 20 years and about 800,000. Some fled, some migrated, some were forced out with a mob at their heels.

same as the Jews from the Arab countries? And the "mob at their feet" part is not quite historically confirmed, is it?



And this justifies Israels occupation of the West Bank how, precisely?
territory won in war.


I'm sure theres a few decades of legal debate as to who owes what to who. I think it fair to say that the Palestsinians should have a state, regardless.

yes.

Always one, isn't there.....

We'll ignore the "genocial aggressor" nonsense for the moment.

Nonsense? We have the leaders of Syria and Iraq on record publicly calling for genocide and ordering their soldiers to "pave the roads with Jewish skulls".

Here -

"Olmert also said he would seek to keep three large blocs of Jewish settlements in central areas of the West Bank, which Palestinians want as part of a future state, called Maale Adumim, Ariel, and Gush Etzion. And he vowed to build Jewish housing in a West Bank area east of Jerusalem known as E-1, a longstanding Israeli plan to consolidate control of the area that is on hold because US officials say it violates a settlement-building freeze that is part of the ''road map" peace plan." (my bold)
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/03/10/with_lead_in_israels_polls_kadima_lays_out_plans/?page=1

Holding on to large sections of the West Bank. And then theres the various efforts to grab as much of Arab East Jerusalem as possible.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/03/10/with_lead_in_israels_polls_kadima_lays_out_plans/?page=1

First of all, lets read the post you were replying to shall we?

Israel took the land they took while defending themselves against a genocidal aggressor. They've returned much of the land they took in exchange for peace and they're offering more, just as soon as Hamas agree to recognise Israel and renounce violence.

Notice I said offering 'more', not 'all'.

I've rebolded the section of article which you quoted. Of course he's going to 'seek' to keep the settlements, we're talking about negotiations here. Both sides will go in with inflated demands and they'll eventually beat out a compromise (assuming Hamas are willing to actually talk and recognise Israel...). Israel will probably ask for Jerusalem too, as will the Palestinians. If you go into negotiations with minimal demands then the inevitable compromise will favour your opponent.

On the second page of the Boston Globe article we have "they began to describe a new round of unilateral withdrawals they say Israel could carry out alone if Hamas does not change its ways."

In other words they're telling Hamas to negotiate borders now or Israel will decide for them.

There were no plans for death camps, gas chambers or mass executions that I was aware of, nor have any been presented.

Israeli intelligence reported that Egyptian army units were equipped with poison gas canisters for use on civilians, although I'm guessing you'll reject this evidence on principle because it came from the Israeli military.

Besides, why would they need death camps? In Rwanda nearly one million people were killed in just one hundred days by about 30,000 militiamen, many armed only with machetes. According to Wikipedia, the combined Arab armies numbered about 280,000 men. There are about 5.3 million Jews in Israel today, I don't know how many there were in 1967 but let's say 5 million to keep the numbers nice (although there were probably less). About 10,000 people a day were killed in Rwanda, so that means that every militiaman is killing once every three days. If this was the case in Israel, then that would mean over 90,000 dead each day. Given these figures it would only have taken 56 days to wipe out the entire Jewish population. This isn't accounting for the fact that the Arab armies were more organised than the militias, that they would have been more mobile, that they had over 800 aircraft supporting them, and that the Jewish population in Israel is probably more centralised than the Tutsi population in Rwanda; all of these factors would have reduced the time needed to commit genocide.

Given all of this, why would they need death camps? Why wouldn't they have cut out the middle man and let the armies do the work?

I've got a lot of work to do this weekend so I probably won't be able to respond to any replies before Monday.

The Israelis managed to fuck up Lebanon without outside help.

Should lebanon have been less tolerant of a terrorist organization in its midst, they wouldn't have had this problem.

Expliquez-vous, s'il vous plais?

I think it's s'il vous plait.


Ah right, so the leaders don't think the way the populace does. That shows that they definitely are a secular democracy!
Indeed :)

I wonder how much you mean that and how much you just want al-Aqsa to be taken down so the jews can build their little temple again and Jesus could come back as most Christians believe.

I wonder how much you're just trying to be OMG the world is against us, when the evidence just isn't there, as well as being monumentally disrespectful while whining that your religion is not respected.

Oh, the hypocrisy.

no shit...

That's why there was not need for Jews to go to Palestine in the first place. They just could have pursued a place for their weird religion and rituals in western Pennsylvania as well.

And what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So why isn't your weird religion and rituals pursued in Outer Mongolia?

I wonder how much you're just trying to be OMG the world is against us, when the evidence just isn't there, as well as being monumentally disrespectful while whining that your religion is not respected.

Oh, the hypocrisy.

The reason he complains about the "lack of respect" for his religion may be found in the pages of history (from the First Barbary War, say).

In 1786 Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman or (Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves. Jefferson reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:

The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet (Mohammed), that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to heaven.

Ever wonder why Jefferson got a copy of the Koran? So he could verify this for himself.

Fucking nuke it! Bloody rag-head religious nutters.:upyours:

:rolleyes: Yeah, that's a really intelligent response.

The reason he complains about the "lack of respect" for his religion may be found in the pages of history (from the First Barbary War, say).


This would be the religion that invaded the Byzantine empire the Balkans, central Europe and Iberia?

Fucking Palestinians are paranoid. Even on the rare occasion when the Israelis are doing something for their benefit, like repairing the access ramp to their mosque, they entertain paranoid and inflamatory fantasies that the Israelis are going to destroy their "holy" place.

And what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So why isn't your weird religion and rituals pursued in Outer Mongolia?It probably is. However, there is no need for a state for the followers of this religion, just as there has never been a need for a Jewish state.

This is not a local conflict. And no one gunned down the Muslims praying there just because they prayed there..

This is not a local conflict. And no one gunned down the Muslims praying there just because they prayed there.

My inital statements were referring to the Al Aqsa mosque quite specifically and my reference to people being gunned down was clearly referring to the "hate mongering" I referred to earlier. Now why you keep misrepresenting what I type is not quite clear to me, but I suggest that you cease and desist fairly fucking rapidly.



a nationality = specific ethnicity and specific language... doesn't quite qualify..

According to you. Yet the majority of world organisations recognise them as thus.


same as the Jews from the Arab countries? And the "mob at their feet" part is not quite historically confirmed, is it?..

I was actually referring to the Jewish population there, as should have been pefectly clear from the "over 20 years". Your reading comprehension is truly appalling.

As regards your idea that Arabs were not forced out, indicated by that "not quite historically confirmed" remark, you'll find that they largely were, en masse, by the Irgun/Haggannah.


territory won in war.?..

Peoples homes and lands, taken by force. Of course we could all reject the idea that the annexation of territory by force is illegal and illegitamate, but then how would you go about compensating Iraq for being thrown out of Kuwait.

Nonsense? We have the leaders of Syria and Iraq on record publicly calling for genocide and ordering their soldiers to "pave the roads with Jewish skulls"..

I'm sure they did. I seem to remember Saddam talking about lakes of blood, but I don't recall widespread American worries about giant Iraqi juicers. It should go without saying they tend towards the biblical with their rhetoric in that part of the world.


I've rebolded the section of article which you quoted. Of course he's going to 'seek' to keep the settlements, we're talking about negotiations here. Both sides will go in with inflated demands and they'll eventually beat out a compromise (assuming Hamas are willing to actually talk and recognise Israel...). Israel will probably ask for Jerusalem too, as will the Palestinians. If you go into negotiations with minimal demands then the inevitable compromise will favour your opponent."..

"From the start of the article - JERUSALEM -- Leaders of Israel's new Kadima party, which holds a commanding lead in the polls, are sketching out a bold plan to withdraw from most of the West Bank and unilaterally draw Israel's permanent borders within four years."
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/03/10/with_lead_in_israels_polls_kadima_lays_out_plans/?page=1

This was pre-election. Since the election theres been increased building within the settlements and even more skullduggery around land ownership in Arab East Jerusalem.


In other words they're telling Hamas to negotiate borders now or Israel will decide for them.."..

The plan began with Sharon withdrawing from Gaza when Arafat was in power.

Israeli intelligence reported that Egyptian army units were equipped with poison gas canisters for use on civilians, although I'm guessing you'll reject this evidence on principle because it came from the Israeli military..."..

I've never come across evidence from anything resembling a netural party on this.

Given all of this, why would they need death camps? Why wouldn't they have cut out the middle man and let the armies do the work?..."..

What units were to do what to who when? These things just don't organise themselves. It would have to be planned, and as of yet I have yet to see or hear detailed realistic references to a plan.

My inital statements were referring to the Al Aqsa mosque quite specifically and my reference to people being gunned down was clearly referring to the "hate mongering" I referred to earlier. Now why you keep misrepresenting what I type is not quite clear to me, but I suggest that you cease and desist fairly fucking rapidly.
or you could try being clearer. It helps.



According to you. Yet the majority of world organisations recognise them as thus.
again. why?



I was actually referring to the Jewish population there, as should have been pefectly clear from the "over 20 years". Your reading comprehension is truly appalling.

I am not a mind reader. If you have something to do, be specific. Expecting someone to read your mind is...

As regards your idea that Arabs were not forced out, indicated by that "not quite historically confirmed" remark, you'll find that they largely were, en masse, by the Irgun/Haggannah.

I have found conflicting reports on this... Do you ahve something more?

Peoples homes and lands, taken by force.

In a war fought in self defense, I might add. Welcome to human civilization. We all live in areas taken by force from someone else.

Yes but the Romans destroyed the Temple, so it can't be holy for them anymore can it?what is your point?
that they are not allowed to rebuild a temple or..
that its ok to do it.. because the Romans did it?

You do realize that the Mosque was built on the Temple Mount which is the Holeyest place in the Jewish religion?what is your point?
That it is OK to destroy the holy Mosque.. because it sit on that holy mountain?

what is your point?
That it is OK to destroy the holy Mosque.. because it sit on that holy mountain? I think we should destroy the Mosque because the temple would look nicer (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0cACZAkwg0CADDXxRfZvfTlBlJexneH*MnbgiYpbIPi0mo*u7E*ImlMqJNrJ6CoHEIhkkgnPVM0wgDVvvkOckcvQqjbk6YbHXMEc WQlZv7v0yXUnwhhXC3trU97QpN3nkzKUxifCTZuSa2Ayz*cn2UR04KOnSNUa9KGNvbXBhdGk/Model%20of%20Third%20Temple%20-%20a.bmp?dc=4675477003291215608) ;) . But the Jews aren't allowed to build the Third Temple yet anyway, so why the Palestinians think they're going to blow up their mosque I don't know.

I'll put it down to run-of-the-mill middle eastern paranoia, a la "Police State Britain".

what is your point?
that they are not allowed to rebuild a temple or..
that its ok to do it.. because the Romans did it?Well, since there is no temple no more, and no Ark no more, there is no reason for Jews to still consider this place holy. Muslims consider this place holy because of the alleged attempted sacrificial ritual of Abraham on Mount Moriah, and not because of the Ark or the Temple.

This whole debate is skirting over everything BUT the main question:

Do the Jews have a right to have a state of their own?

Let us remember one thing: they started settling themselves in Israel a lot earlier than 1948. Most of that land was bought by them from its legal owners... and I do remember a shitload of troubles with the Arabs in that VERY soarsely populated region a long time before the state of Israel was created.

If we agree that the Jews have a right to have a state of their own in Israel, then we have to give them the right to defend themselves against aggression.


As far as the mosque thing goes, it is obviously fear mongering, and nothing more.

I think we should destroy the Mosque because the temple would look nicer (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0cACZAkwg0CADDXxRfZvfTlBlJexneH*MnbgiYpbIPi0mo*u7E*ImlMqJNrJ6CoHEIhkkgnPVM0wgDVvvkOckcvQqjbk6YbHXMEc WQlZv7v0yXUnwhhXC3trU97QpN3nkzKUxifCTZuSa2Ayz*cn2UR04KOnSNUa9KGNvbXBhdGk/Model%20of%20Third%20Temple%20-%20a.bmp?dc=4675477003291215608) ;) . But the Jews aren't allowed to build the Third Temple yet anyway, so why the Palestinians think they're going to blow up their mosque I don't know.

I'll put it down to run-of-the-mill middle eastern paranoia, a la "Police State Britain".3rd temple?

or you could try being clearer. It helps.
.

Its perfectly clear. Any lack of clarity there may be seems to occur at your end.


again. why?.

Why? Because they are one.


I am not a mind reader. If you have something to do, be specific. Expecting someone to read your mind is... ?.

Its not required to read my mind to know that the expulsion of Sephradic Jews occurred over 20 years. It is required you know what you're on about though.

have found conflicting reports on this... Do you ahve something more??.

For example - Yizhk Rabin on the expulsions from Lydda & Rammla in 1948, where 50,000 approx were driven out.

"Great Suffering was inflicted upon the men taking part in the eviction action. [They] included youth-movement graduates who had been inculcated with values such as international brotherhood and humaneness. The eviction action went beyond the concepts they were used to. There were some fellows who refused to take part. . . Prolonged propaganda activities were required after the action . . . to explain why we were obliged to undertake such a harsh and cruel action." (New York Times, October 22, 1979)


We all live in areas taken by force from someone else.
??.

And that of course makes it right, I presume. In which case explain why it was not deemed right for Saddam to annex Kuwait.

c. 10th century BCE: Solomon’s Temple completed.

And the Jews lived happily ever after.

. Most of that land was bought by them from its legal owners... and I do remember a shitload of troubles with the Arabs in that VERY soarsely populated region a long time before the state of Israel was created.


O dear me. What planet does 9% of the total area consitute "most" on?

c. 10th century BCE: Solomon’s Temple completed.

And the Jews lived happily ever after.No they didn't.
And Solomon’s supposed Temple was destroyed.

No one wants another war there.If they dont want another War.. they should Stop doing whatever they are doing.


All that the stupid Israeli government did was to repair a fucking damaged ramp. They should stop. No big deal.

They should be greatful, for fuck's sakes! If they are ingrateful.. even more reason to stop "helping" them.

O dear me. What planet does 9% of the total area consitute "most" on?Interesting grammar... :p

Interesting grammar... :p

I see your tendencies head towards grammar too. Wunderbar.

why the Palestinians think they're going to blow up their mosque I don't know.
Maybe because they dont trust the Jews?
and maybe because some Israelis say the Mosque should be destroyed..

I think we should destroy the Mosque because the temple would look nicer (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0cACZAkwg0CADDXxRfZvfTlBlJexneH*MnbgiYpbIPi0mo*u7E*ImlMqJNrJ6CoHEIhkkgnPVM0wgDVvvkOckcvQqjbk6YbHXMEc WQlZv7v0yXUnwhhXC3trU97QpN3nkzKUxifCTZuSa2Ayz*cn2UR04KOnSNUa9KGNvbXBhdGk/Model%20of%20Third%20Temple%20-%20a.bmp?dc=467547700329121560) ;) . But the Jews aren't allowed to build the Third Temple yet anyway.
why are they not allowed to build the 3rd Temple??

No they didn’t.
And Solomon’s supposed Temple was destroyed.
Yeah... sarcasm?

I see your tendencies head towards grammar too. Wunderbar.
?

why are they not allowed to build the 3rd Temple??For what purpose?

Exactly. My knowledge of Jerusalem is a bit sketchy, but isn't the al-Aqsa Mosque built into the Temple Mount? Why would Jews want to partially destroy their own holy places just to spite Muslims?

Upon the platform for the Temple that Herod built for the Jews. It's a mish-mash of buildings.

Maybe because they dont trust the Jews?
and maybe because some Israelis say the Mosque should be destroyed..



And some Muslims say that all Jews should be killed.

To use that logic is seventeen different ways to retarded.

This whole debate is skirting over everything BUT the main question:

Do the Jews have a right to have a state of their own?of course they do.
What a stupid question.

For what purpose?you are answering my question with another question.
I have red-ironed other posters for less than that. ;)

of course they do.why? and who grants that right? "god" ?

you are answering my question with another question.
I have killed peoples for less than that. :D

Oooh, nice. Quoted, so you can't edit it out later.

you are answering my question with another question.
I have red-ironed other posters for less than that. ;)changed "killed" to "red-ironed", huh?

This is why own krugerrands, not bonds. :p

And some Muslims say that all Jews should be killed. Do they say it on the printed Newspapers?

there is a difference.. Many (probalby most) NBA players dispise Gays.. but speaking up on Natinal TV is "crossing the line".

changed "killed" to "red-ironed", huh?hehe..

you are fast.

Oooh, nice. Quoted, so you can't edit it out later.
sue me.:p

why? Because they are a nation.

and who grants that right? "god" ?God? dont be silly.

I never accepted ancient religeus writtings as Land Ownership certificates..
And neither should you.

Al-Aqsa shouldn't be torn down, that's just stupid.

However, the Palestinians are being paranoid here, all the Israeli construction crews are doing is repair a walkway so people are able to go to the mosque.

Al-Aqsa shouldn't be torn down, that's just stupid.

However, the Palestinians are being paranoid here, all the Israeli construction crews are doing is repair a walkway so people are able to go to the mosque.Why are Israelis doing this? Why not Arabs?

.. all the Israeli construction crews are doing is repair a walkway so people are able to go to the mosque.they should stop.

Why are Israelis doing this? Why not Arabs?
Maybe they're unwilling or unable to?

they should stop.
Why? Why do the Arabs have such a problem with this?

Why? Why do the Arabs have such a problem with this?That's not supposed to be a serious question, is it?

they should stop.Why? "why?" Are you freaking serious?

Israel/Palestine/MiddleEast is a Fucking Powder Keg..
how is that for an answer?

I dont care how many Archeologists their Gov pays to say "its not dangerous"..
If the Muslims think it could be dangerous.. its reason enough to stop "helping" them.

I dont care how many Archeologists their Gov pays to say "its not dangerous"..
If the Muslims think it could be dangerous.. its reason enough to stop "helping" them.

So if the Israelis help them, they're in the wrong, and if they hurt them, they're in the wrong? Are Israelis in the wrong for existing to you?

Are Israelis in the wrong for existing to you?I have already answered that question.
I sugest you either:

#1 Use the wounderful search function.
#2 Read this very page.
#3 or if you are too lazy.. just click this link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12340114&postcount=141)

I have already answered that question.

Ok then, what should the Israeli's do to be in right?

Ok then, what should the Israeli's do to be in right?they should call the RE/MAX agent, of course.

Jerusalem is still the third holiest place in Islam.

Not during Muhammed's time or by his (or Qur'an's) teachings/sayings. It was made so during a later caliph's time. Muhammed forbade muslims to pray in that direction after having asked them to do so initially.


And iirr Muhammad chose Mecca as the prayer direction as soon as he had declared the local Kaaba there the symbol of god's covenant and interaction with human.

After he realised that the jews and other folks in Jerusalem will never accept him as a prophet.

Fucking Palestinians are paranoid. Even on the rare occasion when the Israelis are doing something for their benefit, like repairing the access ramp to their mosque, they entertain paranoid and inflamatory fantasies that the Israelis are going to destroy their "holy" place.

You will find this funny. :p

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1170359831729&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Following the afternoon prayers at the Temple Mount a group of approximately 150 Muslim Israeli men and women threw rocks at the buses that had been sent to take them home.

A crowd chanted, "Allah is great," while pelting the buses which were waiting near the Rockefeller Museum.:eek: :rolleyes: :headbang: :p

You will find this funny. :p

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1170359831729&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Well, I can see their point. Sending busses to take them home is an insult to the wisdom and power of god. If god had wanted them to leave he'd have sent angels to bear them away on their spotless white wings.

Not during Muhammed's time or by his (or Qur'an's) teachings/sayings. It was made so during a later caliph's time. Muhammed forbade muslims to pray in that direction after having asked them to do so initially.



After he realised that the jews and other folks in Jerusalem will never accept him as a prophet.

This is just flat wrong. The direction went to Mecca after he recieved a revelation.

UB, AP, OD2, and Soviestan are nothing but anti-semitic morons. This thread is proof of it. The four of you desperately need lobotomy.

Pryotr and others have to waste their time explaining to you why what Israel is doing is good. You're just being a bunch of morons and referring back to the Protocols about those evil Jews with their horns trying to get money and destroy the mosque.

Pryotr is a Muslim.

No I'm not.....

Well, I can see their point. Sending busses to take them home is an insult to the wisdom and power of god. If god had wanted them to leave he'd have sent angels to bear them away on their spotless white wings.

"That's right Private Pyle. Don't make any fucking effort to get to the top. If G-d wanted you up there he would've miracled your ass up there by now, wouldn't he Private Pyle?"

"Sir, yes Sir."

"Your ass looks like about a 150 pounds of chewed bubblegum. Were you born fat and lazy or did you have to work at it?"

No I'm not.....

Sorry, I could've sworn seeing you post in the past that you were.

Sorry, I could've sworn seeing you post in the past that you were.

That's ok, and if you don't mind me asking, what about my posting made you come to this conclusion?

That's ok, and if you don't mind me asking, what about my posting made you come to this conclusion?It wasn't anything about your posting. I could've sworn reading something a couple of months back with you claiming you were Muslim. I might've confused you with another poster. Easy to do so with the few hundred who regularly post on these boards.

UB, AP, OD2, and Soviestan are nothing but anti-semitic morons. This thread is proof of it. The four of you desperately need lobotomy.

Pryotr and others have to waste their time explaining to you why what Israel is doing is good. You're just being a bunch of morons and referring back to the Protocols about those evil Jews with their horns trying to get money and destroy the mosque.

I don't appreicate you calling me a moron.

I don't appreicate you calling me a moron.
I don't appreciate your hatred towards me and my people. Nor do I appreciate your lies.

OMG… Muslim vs Jew time. *hides*

In the good old days we would ride down and knock ye both around. Ah, how times have changed.

dp

Pryotr is a Muslim.No I'm not.....neither am I.
and IMHO IDF is jewish. but I could be wrong.

UB, AP, OD2, and Soviestan are nothing but anti-semitic morons.neither am I.
and IMHO IDF is a Godwiner troll.

This is just flat wrong. The direction went to Mecca after he recieved a revelation.

Muslim myth. Jews of Jerusalem refused to accept Muhammed as the "seal of the prophets" despite Muhammed making the direction of Jerusalem for the first Qibla and adopting several Jewish practices like Yom Kippur-like fast, permission to eat kosher food and approval to marry Jewish women etc. Early muslims were actually asked not to follow the pre-Islamic practice of the Meccans to pray toward the Ka‘ba.

Sometime in 624, this changed since the Jews won't buy into Muhammed's teachings.

2:142-52 goes like:

The Fools among the people will say: "What has turned them [the Muslims] from the qibla to which they were always used?"

Allah answers

We appointed the qibla that to which you was used, only to test those who followed the Messenger [Muhammad] from those who would turn on their heels [on Islam].

now shall we turn you to a qibla that shall please you. Then turn your face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque [in Mecca]. Wherever you are, turn your faces in that direction.


Even if you were to bring all the signs to the people of the Book [i.e., Jews], they would not follow your qibla.

From then on, Mecca would be the direction of prayer, so that it serves as a differentiation from Jews.

Read At-Tabari and Jalaluddin etc - early Arab muslim historians/commentators. I am tired of explaining muslim history to muslims. :p

I understand that you can shut your ears and go "lalalallalalalalalalla" and say "Gibrael told Muhammed (pbuh) under the order of Allah (saw) and I am not going to consider any other explanations".....but unfortunately some of us don't take the words of a man who says some spirit told him something under the orders of another invisible entity and this wrote by other men who wrote what they could remember under the orders of another man.

IOW, you may believe that Muhammed had revelations and Qur'an is an uncorrupted word of God as was revealed to him, but evidence says otherwise.

Actually, evidence shows it all to be a crock of shite. Theres no invisible man lads, and the sooner yez realise it the better.

Evidence such as?

Evidence such as?

It says in the holy books one thing, another thing is the case in reality. Therefore.....

It says in the holy books one thing, another thing is the case in reality. Therefore.....What does it say in the holy books that does not correspond with ... reality?

What does it say in the holy books that does not correspond with ... reality?

O fer fucks sake. The flood. The creation. Etc, etc, etc.

O fer fucks sake. The flood. The creation. Etc, etc, etc.ah, the flood, yes. but more recent stuff?

O fer fucks sake. The flood. The creation. Etc, etc, etc. Which brings up the whole "literalist versus non-literalist" thing. Islamic tradition is far more literalist, as the Quran is seen as being the direct word of God himself.

Actually there are fringe groups of Israelis who are trying to rebuild the temple, but they are not mainstream Jews. Every religion has those fringe loonies who would like nothing better than to give the whole religion a bad name.

That being said, the temple is long gone neither group was responsible for its destruction and the group that was, the romans, are gone. Trying to force this whole argument one way or another will bring nothing but more bloodshed. Therefore, I think it wise to just keep the status quo and let the Muslims have their mosque, let the Jews have their wall and let the Christians have their sepulchre.

Which brings up the whole "literalist versus non-literalist" thing. Islamic tradition is far more literalist, as the Quran is seen as being the direct word of God himself.
wow, that's funny. :p :rolleyes:
if a text is crap it really doesn't matter how literal you take it.

The Zionists probably want to replace it with a military base, or a Synagogue that couples as a Bank too.
LOL

Do they say it on the printed Newspapers?


Fairly regularly.

LOL

Dudes I was only joking, you know the whole thing about Jews and money?

I don't appreciate your hatred towards me and my people. Nor do I appreciate your lies.

you claim I lie. yeah right. pot meet kettle

I don't appreciate your hatred towards me and my people. Nor do I appreciate your lies.

Your people, please no more ethnic-nationalism please.

IOW, you may believe that Muhammed had revelations and Qur'an is an uncorrupted word of God as was revealed to him, but evidence says otherwise.

What evidence? All you did was offer some explanation you pull out of your arse to try to counter what is in the Qur'an. Thats not proof, thats just denying the words of Allah(swt).

I suppose, somewhere in 13 pages, someone mentioned the dynamiting of Bhuddist statues by fundamental Islamists?

I suppose, somewhere in 13 pages, someone mentioned the dynamiting of Bhuddist statues by fundamental Islamists?

Uh, no.....

Actually, evidence shows it all to be a crock of shite. Theres no invisible man lads, and the sooner yez realise it the better.

What about lepruchans? Now you're going to tell me that lepruchans aren't real? How do you explain lucky charms then? I had a bowl for breakfast this morning. You'll never that that away from me.

Dudes I was only joking, you know the whole thing about Jews and money?

I'm a Jew and I think Jew jokes are hilarious. Anti-semitism is when someone actually takes these stereotypes seriously. There are plenty of people who do. But most of the time, it's just good old fashioned fun... like on South Park.

Uh, no.....

Well, then, my point would be that if, when in positions of political power, they blow up other religion's cool historical stuff, they're hypocrites to complain when someone does it to them, I guess.

This is why own krugerrands, not bonds. :p

and this was a clue as well ;)

What about lepruchans? Now you're going to tell me that lepruchans aren't real? How do you explain lucky charms then? I had a bowl for breakfast this morning. You'll never that that away from me.



I'm a Jew and I think Jew jokes are hilarious. Anti-semitism is when someone actually takes these stereotypes seriously. There are plenty of people who do. But most of the time, it's just good old fashioned fun... like on South Park.

Well IDF constantly tries to paint me as this anti-semitic nazi, because of my opposition to Israeli foreign policy and actions, and support of Palestinian militants and Hezbollah.

Well IDF constantly tries to paint me as this anti-semitic nazi, because of my opposition to Israeli foreign policy and actions, and support of Palestinian militants and Hezbollah.

Well, if you do not agree with Israel on every decision it makes then he thinks a person must be anti-Semitic so I don't think he is really the best person to judge.

Well IDF constantly tries to paint me as this anti-semitic nazi, because of my opposition to Israeli foreign policy and actions, and support of Palestinian militants and Hezbollah.

Yes but Hezbollah is... well, anti-Jew. They don't hide this fact. Go ahead and ask them. I'm sure they have a website. I want to stop using the term anti-semitic since it's really a European word based on a caucasian perspective. The truth is that Arabs are technically a semitic peoples. So are Persians. Europeans use the term semite to refer to the Jews because they hailed from semitic lands.

What I fail to understand is how you can support an organization that willfully orchastrates racially motivated killings on both Jews and other ethnic arab populations. Israel gets a pretty bad rap. But most everything they've been accused of has been outright lies. Have they killed innocent people? Shamefully yes. Intentionally? Hell, no! Hezbollah on the other hand...

Israel is often portrayed as a Jewish nation. Yes, it became the homeland for the Jews. For most of us, it represents the hope for a safe haven. Years and years of persecution finally convinced us that Europe didn't want us. Africa didn't want us. The Middle East didn't want us. Russia didn't want us.

So? Since the early 1800s, far before the concept of "Zionism" rested on the lips of Jews and anti-Jews alike, there was a movement to return to the region of Judea. For over 80 years, Jews moved back to the region, earned citizenship (at this time from the Ottoman Empire) and purchased land from Arab settlers. We want to view the Jewish presence in Israel as a relatively recent phenomenon, but a census taken of the population of Jerusalem as early as 1867 reports a 63% majority to be Jewish. Areas of Judea as sparsely populated as the Negev, the lower plains region, and mountainous area just north of Nazareth were almost entirely Jewish by the turn of the 20th century. In fact, during the 1800 Jews had better relations with their Arab neighbors than with any European nation.

It wasn't until just prior to the turn of the century that clerics began to rally against the increasing numbers of Jewish immigrants. By WWI, the British Empire had declared Jewish settlement of the region of Palestine to be illegal. However, after a Jewish armed force proved instrumental in the taking of a Turkish seaport, and after a British patrol boat managed to sink two vessels bearing Jewish settlers, the Jews were once again allowed immigration status. Bear in mind that the entire region from Turkey to Iraq, to Egypt was ruled as a British protectorate at the time. Jewish immigration was tightly regulated, but a slow and steady stream of Jews, fleeing growing persecution in places like Russia, Poland, Germany and France, continued to trickle into the area.

By now, Arab/Jewish hostilities had reached a boiling point. Attacks on both sides escalated the issues of racial and religious differences. We must remember that there was not, nor is there today, a unified Arabia. In addition to Arab/Jewish tensions, clans of Beduins fought with Turks, Kurds, Persians, and of course European populations. The British solution to this growing problem was to divide the Middle East into territories very similar to the nations we have today.

Britain, in their monumental wisdom, gave Jerusalem over almost exclusively to the "Arabs". Again, remember that the idea of Arabia existed as more of a figment of British imagination. In truth, many ethnically diverse "Arabs" rejected the British lines which forced people into groups with friends and enemies alike. National lines were not drawn with ethnic sensitivities in mind. Rather, geographic regions containing specific resources were singled out to make trade between Europe and the Middle East much easier. On the ground, however, ethnic strife threatened to tear apart the fabric of these faux governments. Shi'ite radicals swept in to destroy sacred Jewish Holy sites. Persian Zoroastrians attacked areas which Shi'ites revered. Sunni extremists desecrated Christian religious areas, while Christians sacked Persian temples.

Much of this chaos subsided at the close of WWII. With the Holocaust fresh in the memory of a generation of Jews, a mass immigration to Israel ensued. This was followed almost immediately with the official proclaimation of Israel as a nation. Instantly, Arab tribes that were once bitter enemies joined forces to eliminate this new threat. Lebanese Christians and Israeli Jews, both backed by wealthy European nations stood their ground against a more heavily armed force under a now united Arab strike force. It was in the 6 day war of Israeli Indepence that Israel took up defensive positions in the Golan Heights. Despite a majority Arab presence, Israel still maintains de facto control over the region to this day.

The battle lines were immediately drawn during the 6 day war. The rash of violence that had plagued the entire Middle East during the early 20th century became much more organized. Christians and Jews were now piting themselves against a sea of Arab nations. Despite their differences, Israel began to make peace with it's neighbors, one by one. Yet every time that peace was declared, the social and economic conditions in many impoverished Arab countries seemed to get worse. It may be that the Jews had been used as an illogical scapegoat for the problems of drought, famine, oppression, and social breakdown. Some say that since peace had been declared, the excuses had lost their power.

More likely though, the income disparity between Jews and Arabs grew out of advances in industry and technology. There has always been an emphasis in Islam of practicing responsibility and restraint. The temptations of a hedonistic west must have proven to much for many Arab peoples. Facing the loss of huge swaths of devoted followers, in my opinion, led many clerics to hype up the evils of the west beyond proportion. But then again, maybe we are excessively greedy and hedonistic. Either way, in an attempt to salvage their cultural identity, many religiously devout Arabs turned to anti-Jewish and anti-Christian philosophies. Simultaneously, facing the constant fear of extinction, Israel has devoted itself to paranoid first strike action.

Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Palestinian militants are escalating their activity against Israeli citizens. Their stated mission, to wipe Israel from the map, has been supported but the leaders of Iran and Syria as well as many extremist clerics. Israeli citizens support a peace with their neighbors while recognizing the importance of security. It's democratically elected goverment receives orders to strike one day and withdraw the next. Israel is the only nation in the Middle East which allows it's citizens to protest against it's government. The opposition to Israeli military action is most effective when sponsored by it's citizenry. Arab peoples represent a greater percentage of the population all the time. Israel faces a duplicitous task. How will they remain both democratic AND Jewish?

While the majority of Islamic peoples in the Middle East are surprisingly ambivilant to the goings on in Israel, the majority of Israeli citizens are overwhelminly supportive of a lasting peace with their Arab neighbors. Meanwhile radical extremists, while once a fringe group of Islamic philosophy, are growing in number exponentially. Terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah, are sponsored by oil-rich governments such as Syriah and Iran. Meanwhile, their message of hate is receiving validity by clerics whose interpretation of the Koran has been previously understated. This is the situation facing the peoples of the Middle East.

Now I know that it's quite fashionable among liberals to bemoan the "civil rights violations" perpetrated by Israel while applauding the suicide bombers employed by Hamas. Among conservatives it is generally believed that a secret Zionist plot that has somehow ensnared many national leaders. Between both sides of the political spectrum it can be quite popular to call George Bush a nazi and Tony Blair the anti-christ. Christians openly support Israel with one hand while deploring the Christ-killing Jews with the other. Moreover, it seems that once every couple of days somebody claiming to be an Arab living in the Middle East starts a thread in broken english about how Israeli fighter jets napalmed his puppy because it was facing Mecca. But the situation in Israel is far more complicated than we give it credit for.

So unless you live in Israel, Lebanon, Syriah, Jordan... and maybe Egypt, you've got no idea what's actually going on. All of the Americans, Europeans, and whoever else wants to give an opinion on the state of things should remember that you're looking at all of your information from thousands of miles away. Unless you have a vested interest in any of the regions I've just mentioned you don't know what you're talking about. The sooner you can admit that, the sooner there will be peace in the Middle East.

Now I know that it's quite fashionable among liberals to bemoan the "civil rights violations" perpetrated by Israel while applauding the suicide bombers employed by Hamas.

:rolleyes:

I'd question that "knowledge" if I were you.

What evidence? All you did was offer some explanation you pull out of your arse to try to counter what is in the Qur'an. Thats not proof, thats just denying the words of Allah(swt).

Yep, I am denying the words of Allah. Sue me. :p

Yep, I am denying the words of Allah. Sue me. :pWhat words of allah?

What I fail to understand is how you can support an organization that willfully orchastrates racially motivated killings on both Jews and other ethnic arab populations. Israel gets a pretty bad rap. But most everything they've been accused of has been outright lies. Have they killed innocent people? Shamefully yes. Intentionally? Hell, no! .

Out of the thousands of incidents over the years, "hell yes" would be far more appropriate a response.

So? Since the early 1800s, far before the concept of "Zionism" rested on the lips of Jews and anti-Jews alike, there was a movement to return to the region of Judea. For over 80 years, Jews moved back to the region, earned citizenship (at this time from the Ottoman Empire) and purchased land from Arab settlers. We want to view the Jewish presence in Israel as a relatively recent phenomenon, but a census taken of the population of Jerusalem as early as 1867 reports a 63% majority to be Jewish. .

In 1922 the first Census by the British reports there to be 83,794 Jewish persons out of a total population of 757,182. At no stage was there a Jewish Majority. At a guess I would say that a source has taken the figures for a small area (Possibly part of Jerusalem and its surrounds) and used that figure for the area as a whole.


Areas of Judea as sparsely populated as the Negev, the lower plains region, and mountainous area just north of Nazareth were almost entirely Jewish by the turn of the 20th century. In fact, during the 1800 Jews had better relations with their Arab neighbors than with any European nation..

Yet this shouldnt obscure the fact that even by 1948 less than 10% of the total area of Palestine was Jewish owned.

By now, Arab/Jewish hostilities had reached a boiling point. Attacks on both sides escalated the issues of racial and religious differences. We must remember that there was not, nor is there today, a unified Arabia. In addition to Arab/Jewish tensions, clans of Beduins fought with Turks, Kurds, Persians, and of course European populations. The British solution to this growing problem was to divide the Middle East into territories very similar to the nations we have today...


In fact the division was done with France in 1916, and it is whats led to those difficulties in the first place - the fate of the Kurds being split across so many "nations" being perhaps the worst.

Britain, in their monumental wisdom, gave Jerusalem over almost exclusively to the "Arabs". Again, remember that the idea of Arabia existed as more of a figment of British imagination. In truth, many ethnically diverse "Arabs" rejected the British lines which forced people into groups with friends and enemies alike. National lines were not drawn with ethnic sensitivities in mind. Rather, geographic regions containing specific resources were singled out to make trade between Europe and the Middle East much easier. On the ground, however, ethnic strife threatened to tear apart the fabric of these faux governments. Shi'ite radicals swept in to destroy sacred Jewish Holy sites. Persian Zoroastrians attacked areas which Shi'ites revered. Sunni extremists desecrated Christian religious areas, while Christians sacked Persian temples....

No idea....must be drugs


Much of this chaos subsided at the close of WWII. With the Holocaust fresh in the memory of a generation of Jews, a mass immigration to Israel ensued. This was followed almost immediately with the official proclaimation of Israel as a nation. Instantly, Arab tribes that were once bitter enemies joined forces to eliminate this new threat. Lebanese Christians and Israeli Jews, both backed by wealthy European nations stood their ground against a more heavily armed force under a now united Arab strike force. It was in the 6 day war of Israeli Indepence that Israel took up defensive positions in the Golan Heights. Despite a majority Arab presence, Israel still maintains de facto control over the region to this day.....


More weirdo talk. Golan was seized in 1967.


The battle lines ..... Some say that since peace had been declared, the excuses had lost their power.

More likely though, the income disparity between Jews and Arabs grew out of advances .......strike action.

Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Palestinian militants are escalating their activity against Israeli citizens. .....East.

Waffle which ignores the continued building of settlements.

but a census taken of the population of Jerusalem as early as 1867 reports a 63% majority to be Jewish.



In 1922 the first Census by the British reports there to be 83,794 Jewish persons out of a total population of 757,182. At no stage was there a Jewish Majority. At a guess I would say that a source has taken the figures for a small area (Possibly part of Jerusalem and its surrounds) and used that figure for the area as a whole.


good detective work sherlock

Your people, please no more ethnic-nationalism please. Israel exists on the basis of ethnic nationalism. An unavoidable fact, and quite a good example if I may say so.

Israel exists on the basis of ethnic nationalism. An unavoidable fact, and quite a good example if I may say so.religio-ethnic superiority complex

Superiority complex?

And Israel is largely secular. Much more so than the surrounding regions. It's basically Western but with different shaped noses.

Its perfectly clear. Any lack of clarity there may be seems to occur at your end.

not everyone is a native English speaker.



Why? Because they are one.

and that is because?........


Its not required to read my mind to know that the expulsion of Sephradic Jews occurred over 20 years. It is required you know what you're on about though.

not the point. It is still a population exchange.

And that of course makes it right, I presume. In which case explain why it was not deemed right for Saddam to annex Kuwait.

why would I have to explain it? It was also deemed right to attack Iraq because supposedly Al Quaeda attacked the USA.

Well, if you do not agree with Israel on every decision it makes then he thinks a person must be anti-Semitic so I don't think he is really the best person to judge.AP is a Nazi though. Every time he posts about the Jews he either posts blood libel, some Jewish conspiracy, or some other anti-semitic shit. If you can't see he's anti-semitic, then you read more of his shit.

religio-ethnic superiority complex
More anti-semitic bullshit from our drunk Irish friend.

NOTE: I have nothing agaisnt the Irish, only this particular poster and those who share his anti-semitic views.

and that is because?........
.

Well, generally speaking when a group of people claim to be a nationality, and a large number of international groups accept it, its because they are one


the point. It is still a population exchange..

But not quite, as there is no Palestinian state into which the Arab Palestinians went.


why would I have to explain it? It was also deemed right to attack Iraq because supposedly Al Quaeda attacked the USA.

emm...Is the US building permament civillian colonies in Iraq? Has Iraq been made a state of the US?

More anti-semitic bullshit from our drunk Irish friend.

NOTE: I have nothing agaisnt the Irish, only this particular poster and those who share his anti-semitic views.

Hes Irish? Since when?

AP is a Nazi though. Every time he posts about the Jews he either posts blood libel, some Jewish conspiracy, or some other anti-semitic shit. If you can't see he's anti-semitic, then you read more of his shit.

To be fair I was only judging from your previous posts which paints a very wide anti-Semitic brush. But I could be wrong with that one particular poster, I don't know his stuff well enough to say for sure.

Well, generally speaking when a group of people claim to be a nationality, and a large number of international groups accept it, its because they are one

not a good enough argument. What makes them a nationality different from any otehr around?


But not quite, as there is no Palestinian state into which the Arab Palestinians went. There wasn't a new state created to absorb the jews from the arab states, was there?



emm...Is the US building permament civillian colonies in Iraq? Has Iraq been made a state of the US?

not yet

not a good enough argument. What makes them a nationality different from any otehr around?It's only a renamed religious group.

There wasn't a new state created to absorb the jews from the arab states, was there?yes, it was.

not yetdepends on how long the US will survive in Iraq

Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world’s population, can lay claim to the following:

• The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.
• Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel
• The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel
• The Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed, and produced in Israel. The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.
• Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.
• Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel
• The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis
• Israel has the fourth largest Air Force in the world (after the US, Russia, and China).
• According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry’s most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.
• Despite a lack of abundant natural resources, Israel’s $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined. In the words of former Prime Minister Shimon Peres “Israel has accomplished more with their minds than the Arabs have with their oil.”
• Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.
• Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.
• Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation in the world
• Israel has one of the highest rates of per capita patents filed as well.
• In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the US.
• Outside the US and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.
• Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.
• On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups
• Twenty-four percent of Israel’s workforce holds university degrees – ranking third in the industrialized world, after the US and Holland. 12% hold advanced degrees.
• Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East
• In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia
• When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world’s second elected female leader in modern times.
• When the US Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day – and saved three victims from the rubble.
• Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.
• Israel was the first nation in the world to adapt the Kimberly Process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as “conflict free”
• Israel has the second highest per capita of books
• Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert
• Israel has more museums per capita than any other country
• Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer
• An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in US hospitals, 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.
• Israel’s Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.
• Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce. With over 25% of its workforce employed in technical professions, Israel places first in this category as well.
• A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device, produces a high intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct, all without damaging surrounding skin or tissue
• An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California’s Mojave desert.

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country in the world.

Today, we are fighting a war all over the world to protect civilization. Civilization has grown up and evolved over 5000 years. Over that time, mankind has always endeavored to better himself. With medical advancements, mankind has increased the length of life as well as the quality of life. With scientific advancements, mankind is able to dynamically expand his capabilities with machines and computers. The amount of knowledge we have gained through the study and advancement of philosophy, law, and liturature has expanded not only the capacity for man to live, but to continue to advance to the next level. Israel stands for all of this. Israel has participated and significantly contributed to all of humankinds attempts to better itself. Aside from the political facts of Israel’s existence, it is so important to remember and remind others of how Israel’s existence has personally benefited virtually everybody on the face of the earth.

In the Spring of 2003, terrorists blew up the Mike’s Place Pub in Tel Aviv. The alarming fact of this terror attack was that it was not carried out by Palestinians. It was carried out by two Syrians with British passports.

When Israel released 435 prisoners in exchange for retired Colonel Elhanan Tannenbaum, 40 of those prisoners, who were arrested in Israel for terrorism, almost 10% of this total, lived in Sudan, Libya, and Morocco.

Copied from an article on World Net Daily by Joseph Farah:

Conventional wisdom suggests a huge Arab population was displaced by the creation of Israel in 1948. It suggests the remaining Arab population in Israel has been mistreated. And it further suggests the solution to this problem is the creation of an Arab Palestinian state on Israeli land.

There are several glaring misconceptions in this view:



The Arab population displaced by the 1948 war has been greatly exaggerated. The actual figure is no more than 500,000. Even more important is the cause of that displacement. The 1948 war was declared against Israel by all of its Arab neighbors. The refugees left Israel at the urging of those Arab states. They were told to leave because their homeland was about to be liberated by Arab forces. Of course, we all know Israel survived. Who is morally and legally culpable for creating those refugees? I would suggest it is the Arab states, not Israel.

Far from being mistreated, the Arab population in Israel and in the territories administered by Israel has been freer than the population in any Arab state. Arabs in Israel vote. They elect leaders to the Knesset. They have their own political parties. They have their own newspapers. They have full rights to citizenship. They are free to speak their minds. As an Arab-American journalist who has spent a good deal of time covering the region, I can tell you there is more freedom for Arabs in Israel than in any Arab state.

Land cannot possibly be the contentious issue as the Arab and Muslim states in the region already have 800 times as much territory as Israel. The Arabs have 50 times the population of Israel. The Arabs have all of the oil reserves of the region. They have 21 states of their own – all varying shades of police states. It's difficult to imagine how one more will bring peace to a region that has known some of the most devastating and costly wars of the last century.

But, to top it all off, I seem to be the only observer asking pointed questions about the Arab-Israeli conflict: If conditions for Arabs are so bad in Israel, why is the Arab population exploding -- and I don't mean because of suicide bombers? Why do Arabs continue to flock to the tiny Jewish state from virtually every Arab and Muslim land in the world?

In 1949, the Arab population of Israel was about 160,000. Today, it is over 1.2 million.

This is hardly attributable to higher birth rates. Most of the growth in Arab population is due to migration. In other words, Arabs are picking up stakes in Arab lands and choosing to live in Israel.

This trend, of course, doesn't include Arab Jewish migration to Israel. No one talks about the staggering number of Arab Jewish refugees – as many as 1 million – who fled the Muslim world with little more than the clothes on their backs to reach the safety and security of the Jewish state in the last 50 years.

We're led to believe Arabs hate Israel – and, indeed, it's true there is an irrational, inexplicable form of virulent anti-Semitism growing in the Arab and Muslim world. But when they vote with their feet, Arabs seem to love Israel. They continue to choose it as a place to live over life in their native countries as they have for the last half-century.

Well IDF constantly tries to paint me as this anti-semitic nazi, because of my opposition to Israeli foreign policy and actions, and support of Palestinian militants and Hezbollah.

Yeah, this clearly isn't racist and stereotypical comment:rolleyes: :

The Zionists probably want to replace it with a military base, or a Synagogue that couples as a Bank too.

Well IDF constantly tries to paint me as this anti-semitic nazi, because of my opposition to Israeli foreign policy and actions, and support of Palestinian militants and Hezbollah. Supporting Hezbollah is worse than supporting the IRA.

Israel is neither anti-Palestinian nor anti-Arab. There are many Jews who despise the State of Israel and there are many Arabs who love her. The following is an article posted on the website ArabsforIsrael.com:

Why I love Israel


By an Arab Egyptian, with a Muslim background and an ex-member of one of the most fanatical Islamic groups in the history of Islam (JI).
T. Abdelhamid


I am a typical Arab- Egyptian- with a Muslim background.
As any Arab, I was brought up on hating Israel and the Jews. When I was four years old, the dehumanisation of the Jews everywhere around me led me to imagine them as green ugly people full of evil.

In the age of six or seven my father who was secular and open minded was reading in a history book and he showed me a photo.
This photo will never be erased from my memory as it was for a whole family without clothes and the father was opening of his eyes in a combination of fear, shock and inability to believe what is happening to him and his family.
My dad said to me in this moment ? these people are called Jews and some one is called Hitler put them in ovens to burn them alive?. My dad was telling this from pure historical point of view. I went to my room and wept over this man and these people.
Since then, every thing changed in my mind regarding the Jews and despite the extreme hatred toward them in the media, in the schools, and everywhere around me, I could not hate them and, in fact I sympathised with them.
This creates a feeling in me that I should meet these people, talk to them, and try to understand them.
As I grew up the hatred in my community was increasing but my feelings did not change.
One day, in my school in Egypt, the teacher asked us to draw something called Bahr Albaquar. They told all the students that Israel attacked a kindergarten and killed the Egyptian kids intentionally. They portrayed Israel and the Jews as bloodsuckers who enjoy killing young Arab kids.
I used to draw this on sheet of paper as I was a young student and I had to obey the teacher, but my feelings toward the Jews remained the same and my desire to see them and talk to them had not changed.

Later in my life, and when I was 15 years old, I met in a family occasion with some doctor who used to work in the area of Bahr Albaquar and he told me the shocking truth. The man was telling that this area was a pure military area and the commander of it decided to open a kindergarten for the kids of those who work in the military unite just 48 hours before the Israeli attack and consequently when Israel attacked it they were attacking it on military basis and they never knew of the sudden unpredicted decision of the commander of this military unit.
When I heard this I felt that my whole government was betraying all of us just to make us hate Israel and to portray the Jews as blood suckers.
The moment I heard this story was the moment when I really felt I was betrayed all my life.
I decided not to believe my government any more when they talk about Israel and my desire to talk to the Jews and hear their views from their point of view was even increased.

After this stage I started to join the Islamic movements in the late 1970?s and I actually joined one of the most fundamental Islamic groups back then (Jamaha Islamia). This was the group that produced Alzawahire, the top organiser of Alquaida.
After relatively very short period of time I started to feel that my personality that was open to others, that accepted difference, and that loved peace is changing gradually into a real evil personality.

I felt I will become a real satanic beast if I continued with this group and I started to withdraw from the group ?JI? and I developed a new small peaceful sect within the Islamic religion itself. This sect was not only peaceful, but also tolerates difference, and promotes love, care, and compassion to all humans irrespective of their deeds.
According to this sect which follow only the Quran rather than Hadith (written traditions about Mohamed or Sunna) I had totally different view about Israel and the Jews as you will see next.
Based on my interpretation of the Quranic verses which was based on literal pure language interpretation rather than a historical one, I used to love the word, love the meaning, and love the concept of Israel.

Let me now explain this to you in more details.

The word Israel for me was the name of one of the greatest profits that as described in the Quran among those who shed tears when they listen to the words of G-d. Just read the following verse to understand my feeling toward the word Israel:
( Quran 19:58 Those were some of the prophets on whom God did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of ((God)) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.)

As the reader can see, the verse just made me love the word Israel.
Sadly, most Muslims correlate the word Israel to the word ?Azraeil? that sound near to Israel but has a totally different meaning as the latter is the name of the ?Angel of death? that takes the life of people. This created a link in the mind of most Muslims? children that made them hate the word Israel as it was linked to death so that the first thing they are brought up with is to hate the word ?Israel?.

I loved the meaning, because the word Jews in Arabic language is ?Yahood?. Even though most Arabs hate this word but for me the case was the opposite for the following reason.
The word ?Yahood? in pure literal Arabic language is derived from the word ?Hado and Hudna? which mean ?returned back?. This word , according to the Quran, was given as a gift from G-d to the Israelites when they ?returned back? to him. The following Quranic verse describes this moment when the Israelites were called ?Yahood? because they ?Hado or Hudna? or ?returned back? to G-d: (7:156 the Israelites said: "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee ?Hudna Ilaik?.").
According to this literal Arabic interpretation, I loved the word ?Jews? even more and more.
I used to ask people around me why do you hate the Jews while this beautiful word represents those who ?returned back? to G-d.
Sadly, I had no answer as the hatred for the Jews among Arabs and Muslims made them blind to any logic.

In addition, to the word Israel and the meaning the word Jews, I also loved the concept of gathering such wonderful nation from everywhere around the earth into their homeland again. For me, according to the Quran, this represented the power of G-d who saved the Jews from the evil of pharaoh (28:4 Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them (children of Israel): their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females to rape them: for he was indeed a maker of mischief 28:5 And We wished to be Gracious to those who were being depressed in the land, to make them guiding lights and leaders (in Faith) and make them heirs).
Furthermore, and again according to the Quran itself, G-d gave the Israelites the land as their promised land (17:104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land of promise":

The Quran went even further to consider the Promised Land as the permanent inheritance for the Israelites (26:59 Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (the promised land)
In addition, the Quran considered that G-d wrote the Promised Land to the Israelites as a final contract (5:21 "O my people (the Jews)! Enter the holy land which God hath assigned unto you).

For me, I loved the G-d that saved his people, kept them alive while other and even more powerful nations disappeared, a G-d who kept his promise.

In addition to the above discussion and according to the some other unambiguous Quranic verses G-d will gather the Israelites again into their promised land before the end of the world (Quran [17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, ?scatter and live all over the world?and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land?).

This last verse proves that the Quran is declaring that it is the will of G-d himself to gather the children of Israel again in their promised land before the end days. Accordingly, No Muslim has the right to interfere with gathering the Jews in Israel again as this is the will of G-d himself.

The latter verse made me look at Israel as the ultimate representation of G-d?s power and the wonderful declaration of his existence.

My view was that if Muslims are unhappy with these Quranic verses they should not blame me as I am not the one who invented them and if they refused these great meanings about the Jews and Israel they should stand, look to the sky and said to ?Allah? we are not happy with your Quran!.

I think the reader can now imagine what can happen to a man like me who preached these views in the midst of the Muslim world. I will not tell what happened to me as it is violent and will be very painful to many readers but I will tell you the end result which was that I left every thing behind me, my house, my car, my good Job in Saudi Arabia and immigrated to the West.

After this relatively religious stage in which I used to preach Islam in a totally different manner, I started to look at the Middle East from a logical point of view rather than a religious view.

This can be elucidated when an Egyptian secular person asked me one day ?Why do you love Israel?. I said to him I want you to think in two countries, country A and country B rather than thinking in Israel and Arabs and just be honest to yourself. Then I said to him country A respects you as a human being who can stand against the government, respect your freedom to choose your religion or believe, and the son of its president can not even dare to touch your wife or rape her or otherwise he would punished with no mercy, while in country B your basic human rights are not respected, you have no choice for your religion, and the son of its president can rape your wife and no one will dare to say to him? this is wrong?. Obviously I was referring to Israel by country A and to the Arab world by country B in which human right activists are thrown into prison if they spoke against the government e.g. Saad Eldi Ibrahim, the Human Rights activist, in Egypt, people can not change their religion e.g. In Saudi Arabia and many Islamic countries the death penalty is applied to any one who dare to convert from Islam, and the son of the president can rape the wife of any one and no one can criticise this e.g. Uddai the sun of Saddam Hussein used to do this regularly without any punishment!.

I then asked my friend, which country do you think you should love more?.is it country A or country B ?, which country you should respect more ? country A or country B, and which country you should defend with your own blood?country A or country B.

The man just could not answer my questions and looked down!

As a man who just want to be honest, I will never forget when Israel Air Forces was above Cairo in 1967 in a war that, as usual, initiated by the Arabs, they could have destroyed the whole of Cairo but they did not do that. This for me represents the highest degree of civilisation ever as I know very well that if the opposite had happened and the Arabs were above Tel Aviv with their Air forces they would not have hesitated for even a second to destroy all of it.

I will never forget Israel the country, Israel the civilisation, Israel the great meaning that put its sons and daughters at risk to select the terrorists who hide in between the civilians instead of killing without discrimination , Israel the democracy that allows all different religions to exist on its land (compare this to Saudi Arabia that prevents any other people but Muslims from practicing their own religions, dose not allow any Non-Muslims to built their temples to pray, or even having their religious books with them).
For these reason I will never forget Israel??.the ?Flower? of the Middle East.

When I mentioned the word ?Flower? an instant flashback happened in my mind to remember one of the poems I wrote about Israel.

I wrote this poem after I saw a movie called ?the pianist? that materialised the suffering of such great Jewish nation.
It was late at night when the movie was over but I could not stop my hands for writing some words to describe the story of Israel?..my hand were shaking and my neck pains were killing me but I continued the story and I wrote :

They want to kill the flower but the flower will never die

Thousands of years ago
a flower was born
it was the most beautiful one among all the flowers
the flower was called Israel

the lord said?.this is going to be my flower to witness my name and speak about my might and beauty
I will give her a charming beauty and I will make all the earth smell its perfume

The spikes went jealous and they decided to kill the flower
They injured her many times
And its perfume dropped like tears on its soft papers

The flower went sad and started to die??.then???and all of a sudden?. it awaked and cried? I will never ever die and I will not let the spikes kill me?.I will fight with my perfume and resist their evil with my softness?..and the spikes surrounded her?.and the flower was groaning in pain
?. the lord listened to her groaning and his voice filled the earth and the skies???I swear with my holiest name I will never leave you to die ?.my most beautiful flower?..and I will make the whole earth smell your perfume and see your charm and beauty?.

The Lord promised her a gift?.a new land to grow and blossom
And what the Lord had said ?happened?..and the new garden was called .. Jerusalem
And the beautiful flower went to its new land?.and it grew and blossomed.
(I refer here to saving the Jewish nation from the Pharoahs when they were in Egypt)

The spikes went crazy??and they swore they will threw the flower out of its new land??and sadly?.. it happened
(I refer here to the destruction of the first temple)


The flower was in pain and it complained to its G-d
And the Lord swore.???I will return you smiling?my beloved flower?. to your land? ?. the lord kept his promise?. and the beautiful flower returned back to its garden?..the holist of holies?..Jerusalem?..and it kept growing and it blossomed

Then???...all the spikes united and said?.we will not have any mercy with her this time?..?.and they started to injure her?..caused her to suffer pain??made her sad?..and finally???? the flower was bleeding her perfume?.
And the perfume was smelled everywhere ?..
(I refer here to the destruction of the second temple and the dispersion of Jews every where)

The spikes went even more angry?..then they decided to cut its green papers??and defame her?. to make her die and to end its perfume?.they did not have mercy with her this time?.her perfume dropped like tears??.no one felt for her?..they threw her lonely to suffer her pains?.the flower did not find many to feel the pains with her??and its crying got louder and it was heard every where on the earth??and it started to die from the pains.
and ?.it surrendered to its fate??? in silence????????????.
(I refer here to the holocaust)

?and in an inevitable moment of death ??.the flower remembered the promise of her G-d?..and it remembered the old spikes ???and its beautiful garden in Jerusalem?.and the flower swore to return back to the land that G-d promised her
and the flower tolerated the pains and continued fighting with its perfume??..and it returned back?..believe me it returned back??..after a long journey?.to its most beautiful garden?.to grow and blossom
?and after the journey of pain and suffering was over? there was no pain any more and her perfume was smelled all over the earth?.and the flower lived.
(I refer to the declaration of Israel in 1948)

The spikes are still trying again to kill ?the Flower???but it will never die ??.if we gave her our love??if we sacrificed our blood to protect it??..if we spoke loudly every were???.?you will never die our beloved flower?.and you will blossom again in the most beautiful garden?.on the mountains of Zion??..you will never shed tears any more?.as G-d kept his promise?.

When I wrote the poem I sent it to a friend of mine at nearly mid night, it was full of English language mistakes as I translated it from Arabic (my native language), but I could not stop myself from sharing it with my best Jewish friend who is also a ?Flower?.

To conclude, as an observer form within the Arab and Muslim world and as a man who just want to say the truth and nothing but the truth, I say it loudly that Israel is the ONLY light of the Middle East.
Israel is the light of love, democracy, civilization, tolerance, and justice and I pray from the depth of my heart that the light of Israel radiates to cover the darkness around it.
It is a dream?..but who knows it may happen.

Do you understand now why I love Israel!

T. Abdelhamid
7/June/2004

Supporting Hezbollah is worse than supporting the IRA.

Why?

not a good enough argument. What makes them a nationality different from any otehr around?

Hang on a second. They are a recognised nationality. If you don't like that, take it up with the rest of the planet. Start with the UN. Then go to the EU.


There wasn't a new state created to absorb the jews from the arab states, was there?

Did they have a state to go to? Why yes they did. More straw man nonsense.


not yet

So, according to you, the occupation and colonisation/annexation of the West Bank is ok, because that is what America is doing in Iraq....Lovely.

Why? If the IRA wanted to wipe out Britain entirely and expel anyone who's not a celt from the North, then they would be on the same level.

I would have thought it was obvious. For the edification of anyone who doesn't know, Hezbollah want to end Israel.

Not on its own, no, but neither do (or did) most Republicans expect the Ulster Scots to just pack up after a few bombs.

If the IRA wanted to wipe out Britain entirely and expel anyone who's not a celt from the North, then they would be on the same level.

Hezbollah has no real chance of destroying Israel, and almost certainly would not even make the attempt.

Nasrallah is not stupid.

Nasrallah is not stupid.

Um...

massive snippage

To you, and everyone else in this thread that is completely off-track: making huge posts, or copying swaths of articles from other places about topics unrelated to the topic at hand (the temple mount, in this case) is in bad taste on the forum. There's no reason that every topic relating to Israel has to devolve into a screaming match about it's right to exist. It really is irrelevant. Grow up all of you, for fuck's sake.

Hezbollah has no real chance of destroying Israel, and almost certainly would not even make the attempt.

Nasrallah is not stupid.

Hezbollah indeed can't destroy israel but same time Israel can't effectively destroy Hezbollah unless they use brutal methods(like Russia in Chechnya), so hezbollah can effectively keep up infinitive confrontation which is in interests of Hezbollah's main supporters Syria and Iran.

-snip -

Must you just copy massive chunks of test? It's annoying. Stop.

Um...

Okay, you get to choose.

Either Nasrallah is smart, or Israel got humiliated by an incompetent fool. ;)

Israel, t.........earth.

As far as I'm aware, debate by spam is not permitted. In addition you failed to either place quotation marks, or a link, to indicate that the piece was not your own. A small section from the relevant article is also common practice, to avert the "debate by spam" effect.

And its entirely irrelevant.


They were told to leave because their homeland was about to be liberated by Arab forces. Of course, we all know Israel survived. Who is morally and legally culpable for creating those refugees? I would suggest it is the Arab states, not Israel. .

While cutting and pasting from sources that agree with you seems like a quiick solution, its always best to check if they are actually correct. He states "They were told to leave".

According to Yitzhak Rabins diary for 10/11 July 1948, with reference to the population of Lydda and Ramla (some 50,000 persons).
"Ben-Gurion would repeat the question: What is to be done with the population?, waving his hand in a gesture which said: Drive them out! [garesh otem in Hebrew]. 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring, .... Psychologically, this was on of the most difficult actions we undertook" I earlier posted a piece from an interview where Rabin described the effect on the men of carrying out the expulsions.

How does this square with the relevant piece from Mr Farah?

The following is an article posted on the website ArabsforIsrael.com:
.

More excessive c&p...If you can't argue in your own words, this really isnt the place for you. Nor have you referred to my refutations re your earlier post.

I say tear it down!

But the reason for that would to be put up a Abrahamic temple, where Jews, Muslims and Christians can worship.

No, it should be a Baha'i Temple, SO ALL CAN JOIN!!!1

Listen, we can debate the evils of Israel all day long. But at the end of the day, there are hundreds of militant groups with the stated mission of destroying Israel. Those people who say that Hezbollah and Hamas want peace are clearly ignoring all evidence to the contrary. Repeatedly, these terrorist organizations have stated their intentions. They're not even trying to pretend to want peace. Seriously, go ask them. They continuously call for the destruction of Israel.

To compare them to "freedom fighters" doesn't jibe. George Washington never called for the destruction of the British Empire, the Zapatistas in Chiapas are not calling for the overthrowing of Mexico's central government, not even the IRA is calling for the destruction of the U.K. All of these groups have at their core a desire to seperate themselves from an oppressive government. The goal of the PLO is not to seperate themselves from Israel and create a sovereign Palestine, but rather to wipe Israel from the map. In the Middle East, the freedom fighters are the Israelis, not the other way around.

Okay, you get to choose.

Either Nasrallah is smart, or Israel got humiliated by an incompetent fool. ;)

I'll choose the later. Israel consistantly gets humiliated by incompetent fools. That's why the international community needs to but out and let them be more effective.

To you, and everyone else in this thread that is completely off-track: making huge posts, or copying swaths of articles from other places about topics unrelated to the topic at hand (the temple mount, in this case) is in bad taste on the forum. There's no reason that every topic relating to Israel has to devolve into a screaming match about it's right to exist. It really is irrelevant. Grow up all of you, for fuck's sake.

You don't have to read it. Feel free to ignore things that you don't want to hear. That's what most of the anti-Israeli members of the forum have been doing.

Listen, we can debate the evils of Israel all day long. But at the end of the day, there are hundreds of militant groups with the stated mission of destroying Israel. Those people who say that Hezbollah and Hamas want peace are clearly ignoring all evidence to the contrary. Repeatedly, these terrorist organizations have stated their intentions. They're not even trying to pretend to want peace. Seriously, go ask them. They continuously call for the destruction of Israel.

To compare them to "freedom fighters" doesn't jibe. George Washington never called for the destruction of the British Empire, the Zapatistas in Chiapas are not calling for the overthrowing of Mexico's central government, not even the IRA is calling for the destruction of the U.K. All of these groups have at their core a desire to seperate themselves from an oppressive government. The goal of the PLO is not to seperate themselves from Israel and create a sovereign Palestine, but rather to wipe Israel from the map. In the Middle East, the freedom fighters are the Israelis, not the other way around.
You seem to think we're arguing in favor of extremists or extremism, we're not.

I'll choose the later. Israel consistantly gets humiliated by incompetent fools. That's why the international community needs to but out and let them be more effective.
Sorry, no member of the U.N. can simply do whatever they want.

As far as I'm aware, debate by spam is not permitted. In addition you failed to either place quotation marks, or a link, to indicate that the piece was not your own. A small section from the relevant article is also common practice, to avert the "debate by spam" effect.

And its entirely irrelevant.



While cutting and pasting from sources that agree with you seems like a quiick solution, its always best to check if they are actually correct. He states "They were told to leave".

According to Yitzhak Rabins diary for 10/11 July 1948, with reference to the population of Lydda and Ramla (some 50,000 persons).
"Ben-Gurion would repeat the question: What is to be done with the population?, waving his hand in a gesture which said: Drive them out! [garesh otem in Hebrew]. 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring, .... Psychologically, this was on of the most difficult actions we undertook" I earlier posted a piece from an interview where Rabin described the effect on the men of carrying out the expulsions.

How does this square with the relevant piece from Mr Farah?


More excessive c&p...If you can't argue in your own words, this really isnt the place for you. Nor have you referred to my refutations re your earlier post.

Well, I'll post what I like, where I like. I'm fairly certain that I'm within my rights according to the message board rules. All of my sources ARE accurate. I choose to include them in order to demonstrate that I am not the only one in the world who supports Israel. Though at times it feels like it. As to your refutations: Check your data. I didn't feel the need to repond to someone who clearly didn't have their facts straight. Read a book... then get back to me with an intelligent response.

Well, I'll post what I like, where I like. I'm fairly certain that I'm within my rights according to the message board rules. All of my sources ARE accurate. I choose to include them in order to demonstrate that I am not the only one in the world who supports Israel. Though at times it feels like it. As to your refutations: Check your data. I didn't feel the need to repond to someone who clearly didn't have their facts straight. Read a book... then get back to me with an intelligent response.

Oh dear, is that the best you can do?

That's why the international community needs to but out and let them be more effective.

Don't you think Israel destroyed South Lebanon enough as it was? (Again?)

Don't you think Israel destroyed South Lebanon enough as it was? (Again?)

Not hardly. Israel is the best hope for the Lebanese people. Only under Israeli protection has Lebanon been free to exercise democracy. Prior to Israel's "invasion" the country was run by armed militants supported by neighboring Syriah. The only time an elected Lebanese official was allowed to speak his mind, he was gunned down by Hezbollah terrorists.

Not hardly. Israel is the best hope for the Lebanese people.

I'm sorry, I stopped reading there... I'm laughing too hard.

You really believe all this shit, don't you?

I'm sorry, I stopped reading there... I'm laughing too hard.

You really believe all this shit, don't you?

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/1211228421.html?dids=1211228421:1211228421&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jan+31%2C+2007&author=SETH+WIKAS&pub=Jerusalem+Post&edition=&startpage=06&desc=Why+the+Syrians+can+best+help+Lebanon+by+staying+out.+And+why+they+won%27t+unless+Hizbullah+is+ neutralized

The typical palor of anti-Israeli sentiment is wholely made up of anti-semites, religious extremists, "enlightened" college freshmen, and those intellectuals who already know everything so they don't have to read a newspaper. I think that you'll find that the more you immerse yourself in the subject of Israel, the truth of their virtue becomes more and more clear.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/1211228421.html?dids=1211228421:1211228421&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jan+31%2C+2007&author=SETH+WIKAS&pub=Jerusalem+Post&edition=&startpage=06&desc=Why+the+Syrians+can+best+help+Lebanon+by+staying+out.+And+why+they+won%27t+unless+Hizbullah+is+ neutralized

Israel is scared shitless of the people they "liberated" back in 1982: the Shi'ites of South Lebanon.

I think there's a lesson in that, now that the old propaganda line is being drawn out again.

Don't you think Israel destroyed South Lebanon enough as it was? (Again?)

Israel happened to defend itself form a terrorist attack. Should lebanon not have allowed itself to be ran by a terrorist organization, that wouldn't have been the case.

The typical palor of anti-Israeli sentiment is wholely made up of anti-semites, religious extremists, "enlightened" college freshmen, and those intellectuals who already know everything so they don't have to read a newspaper. I think that you'll find that the more you immerse yourself in the subject of Israel, the truth of their virtue becomes more and more clear.

So you went from Copy & Paste debate to Ad hominem arguments, as well as the tried and true method of labeling any opposition to Israel as anti-semitic.

Well, I'll post what I like, where I like. I'm fairly certain that I'm within my rights according to the message board rules.
.

Re pasting massive chunks of text as well as not properly demarking a copied passage, no you are not.


All of my sources ARE accurate..

Yet the claim that Palestinians willingly left is inaccurate. You have failed to refer to what Ben Gurion said, or Rabins statement, which I quoted earlier. Why?

Your odd idea that the Golan was seized in 1948 is also inaccurate.
It was in the 6 day war of Israeli Indepence that Israel took up defensive positions in the Golan Heights. You are confusing events, evidently.


I choose to include them in order to demonstrate that I am not the only one in the world who supports Israel.

Presumably not, though may be one who knows the least about it I've come across. I find it amusing that one of your sources is the one who, on numerous occassions, was posted here exclaiming that the "WMD" have been found.

Israel is the best hope for the Lebanese people

They're fucked then so, the poor bastards.....

The typical palor of anti-Israeli sentiment is wholely made up of anti-semites, religious extremists, "enlightened" college freshmen, and those intellectuals who already know everything so they don't have to read a newspaper. I think that you'll find that the more you immerse yourself in the subject of Israel, the truth of their virtue becomes more and more clear.

Dear, dear, dear.......

good. I hope all your sacred sites are destroyed.

good. I hope all your sacred sites are destroyed.Who are you talking to? And whose sacred sites?

Who are you talking to? And whose sacred sites? He probably means the Muslims, as he seems to be talking to the OP.

I'm sure a lot of people feel the same in Israel (I know he's not there), but it's not good to just go and say it like that. It ain't good.

Who are you talking to?

the OP.

And whose sacred sites?

Muslims

the OP.without quoting and after 17 pages in this thread? forum newbie?

without quoting and after 17 pages in this thread? forum newbie?

I've been here longer then you, and have a higher postcount then you. Thus it makes no sense that you consider me to be a newbie.

I've been here longer then you, and have a higher postcount then you. Thus it makes no sense that you consider me to be a newbie.very funny.

People seem to be forgetting all that garbage rhetoric from Ben Gurion and the like about the forced subjugation and annexation of Arab land for building a greater Jewish state. You also forget that the settlers in the West Bank are for the most part pretty crazy ethnic-ultra nationalists who volunteer to live in these extremely dangerous places because they believe in a 'Greater Israel' and think all Arabs less than human.

Palestinians living in Jerusalem or near the border and in the territories are regularly attacked by these extremists. These people volunteered to be illegal colonists occupying a foreign land, contrary to agreements made by Israel with the West. It is for this reason that they are not only complicit with the occupation, but they actively participate in it out of a racist notion of Jewish superiority. For this reason they have put themselves in the firing line and are therefore legitimate targets. People also forget that this collective hatred of Arabs has become a cultural racism in Israel and the territories, creating racial segregationist laws.