NationStates Jolt Archive

What do the people of NS think of allowing Confederate flags to be flown? Is it just a tribute to history, or outright racist? I find it quite offensive, but for the sake of arguement, if no one comes foward to defend it, I will not mind playing the role of devils advocate.

lol, i read the flag title as "confederate fags" and i thought "O RLY?".

I just think it's stupid. Case in point:

http://www.idrewthis.org/comics/idt20041028southernman.gif

What do the people of NS think of allowing Confederate flags to be flown? Is it just a tribute to history, or outright racist? I find it quite offensive, but for the sake of arguement, if no one comes foward to defend it, I will not mind playing the role of devils advocate.

They are a part of the history of the United States so I do not find them any more offensive that the "Union Jack."

I just think it's stupid. Case in point:

http://www.idrewthis.org/comics/idt20041028southernman.gif

I think all extremely racist people in the US should be enlisted and shipped to Saudi Arabia where the Muslims are racists against whites.

lol, i read the flag title as "confederate fags" and i thought "O RLY?".

Now that would be an interesting topic.

What do the people of NS think of allowing Confederate flags to be flown? Is it just a tribute to history, or outright racist? I find it quite offensive, but for the sake of arguement, if no one comes foward to defend it, I will not mind playing the role of devils advocate.

Germany had the good sense to stop flying the Nazi flag. All the Confederate flag stands for is racism and regressivism. If that's what they want to champion, I suppose it's best that we know that up front.

I have no problem with the Confederate flag personally. It's not a problem, and trying to paint it as a symbol for agression or racism is just incorrect. It can be used that way, I'm sure, by people who see it as a sign of exclusion, but so can the national flag if you use a corrupted definition of citizenship. It's pretty much just a distinct symbol of the South.

I tend to hate that shit as it is a sign of secession in my mind, but I suppose it really ends up being an issue of rights. These people have a right to have confederate flags. I don't see it as a sign of the south.

I tend to hate that shit as it is a sign of secession in my mind, but I suppose it really ends up being an issue of rights. These people have a right to have confederate flags. I don't see it as a sign of the south.

What about American Soldiers hanging Nazi flags in their rooms?

It happened in the 101st.......

What do the people of NS think of allowing Confederate flags to be flown? Is it just a tribute to history, or outright racist? I find it quite offensive, but for the sake of arguement, if no one comes foward to defend it, I will not mind playing the role of devils advocate.

Meh. It's just a symbol. It's not like its meaning is set in stone. Take the swastika, for example. It's been a symbol of good fortune for thousands of years, but what do people remember it for? A symbol of hate, of course.

And, frankly, the most widely-known "Confederate Flag", the Naval Jack, is the Confederacy's maritime flag. The Confederate States Navy doesn't really strike me as a hate group. AFAIK, their worst "crime" was privateering, a practice which has been widely used throughout naval history.

I really don't see why such big deals are made about flag flying/burning/wearing/etc. A flag is just another way to show your opinion, like a bumper sticker, or a T-shirt. Also it's a good way to let people know your nationality without having to tell them.

Eh I don't see it as a sign of "racism" or "aggravation" etc. Many people just don't realize that only the rich people own slaved, and God knows they never fought in the battles of the Civil War. Only the poor people fought, and the reason they fought was not for the rich man, but to protect their home, and their land. Many blacks also served under the Confederate flag, so before you call it a "racist" symbol, just think about that for a minute.

http://mariesgiftshop.com/images/afghans/Miscellaneous/Stars%20and%20Bars%20Afghan.jpg

What about American Soldiers hanging Nazi flags in their rooms?

It happened in the 101st.......
You'll have to give the details. Not only that but given that these are government soldiers, they may not necessarily have the same rights as civilians on such measures.

Many people just don't realize that only the rich people own slaved, and God knows they never fought in the battles of the Civil War. Only the poor people fought, and the reason they fought was not for the rich man, but to protect their home, and their land.

Right. From people who they feared wanted to end slavery.

Many blacks also served under the Confederate flag

Yeah... as slaves.

Germany had the good sense to stop flying the Nazi flag. All the Confederate flag stands for is racism and regressivism. If that's what they want to champion, I suppose it's best that we know that up front.
If one were to consider the fact that the Slavery was still legal in the Union throughout the Civil War, and even for a brief time afterward, they might find this association a bit odd.
The only reason that the Civil War is so associated with slavery is that Lincoln wanted a way to strip the South of one of its few strategic resources and ensure that there would be no chance for a compromise peace.

A flag is no more or no less than what you believe it to be. Initially they were simply a method for illiterate conbatants to know who was who. Now they seem to be more important than what they are believed to stand for.

Oh, and by the way, it's not the Civil War, it's The War Between the States.

I just think it's stupid. Case in point:

*pic*
lol


I dont know...I guess I wouldn't like it. Damn confederates...

Many blacks also served under the Confederate flag, so before you call it a "racist" symbol, just think about that for a minute.

I love this particular argument. European colonial powers weren't at all racist either, because they recruited regiments from native populations.

;)

As far as flags go, it is quite ugly.

Right. From people who they feared wanted to end slavery.

You really have to look at the mind set of your typical poor Southerner back then, they most likely didn't have the education that we have today. They were simple farm folks, and really they could care less about the slaves. They fought because they wanted to protect their land, and protect their home. To them, the South was their home, it was their land.


Yeah... as slaves.

Some did, some didn't.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, God the only reason slavery came into the picture was because Abe Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, and even then that was just a political move to cripple the South. Really, Abe didn't even want to end slavery, he just wanted to limit it to the South. The Civil War was a fight between Federal government, and State government.

Confederate flags are very useful. They serve to identify traitors.

Yeah your right, let's allow people to fly a symbol of sucession and racism.

The original meaning does not matter as much, what matters is what it has become, symbol for bigotry and ingorance. The KKK has taken it in as one of their signs, just like they have with the Nazi flag and their wierd cross thingy(which, as a Christian, disgusts me).

(Just a note, lets keep the the discussion G rated and coherent, no debating the ugliness of it, and on the current usage, not what it meant over 100 years ago).

The only reason that the Civil War is so associated with slavery is that...

...the southern states loudly and publicly announced that slavery was their overwhelming motivation.

Many blacks also served under the Confederate flag, so before you call it a "racist" symbol, just think about that for a minute.

Well... while the Confederate Army started to allow blacks into the CSA in March, 1865:
To the slaves is offered freedom and undisturbed residences at their old homes in the Confederacy after the war. Not freedom of sufferance, but honorable and selfwon by the gallantry and devotion which grateful countrymen will never cease to remember and reward.
this was too late for them to make any real contribution to the war effort, considering it ended on April 9 of the same year.

You really have to look at the mind set of your typical poor Southerner back then, they most likely didn't have the education that we have today. They were simple farm folks, and really they could care less about the slaves. They fought because they wanted to protect their land, and protect their home. To them, the South was their home, it was their land.

Okay, stupid tribalism in the service of racism and slavery.

Still not something we should honor with a flag.

Some did, some didn't.

How many free Blacks served with the Confederate military?

How many free Blacks served with the Union military?

I think it's also important to keep in mind that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, God the only reason slavery came into the picture was because Abe Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation,

Utter ahistorical nonsense.

Read. (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/scarsec.htm)

Not to mention the political conflicts of the decade preceding the Civil War.

Really, Abe didn't even want to end slavery, he just wanted to limit it to the South.

So he said. The South disagreed.

The Civil War was a fight between Federal government, and State government.

No, it wasn't. The South didn't care about states' rights when they interfered with their interests; it was just a convenient excuse.

Eh I don't see it as a sign of "racism" or "aggravation" etc. Many people just don't realize that only the rich people own slaved, and God knows they never fought in the battles of the Civil War. Only the poor people fought, and the reason they fought was not for the rich man, but to protect their home, and their land. Many blacks also served under the Confederate flag, so before you call it a "racist" symbol, just think about that for a minute.

http://mariesgiftshop.com/images/afghans/Miscellaneous/Stars%20and%20Bars%20Afghan.jpg

Ok.

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t790/T790871A.jpg

This is not racist? :confused:

You'll have to give the details. Not only that but given that these are government soldiers, they may not necessarily have the same rights as civilians on such measures.

It was a few years ago. They had a bunch of neo-nazis who collected the nazi crap.

They didn't take into account that the Regimental commander had fought the Nazi's in WWII. He did a purge.

The South didn't care about states' rights when they interfered with their interests; it was just a convenient excuse.

hey, they deeply cared about a state's right...to call on the federal government to force northern states to return their escaped slaves

Ok.

[ig]http://imagespicencarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t790/T790871A.jpg[/img]

This is not racist? :confused:

The flag itself, as an inanimate object without opinions or a conciousness, is not. The people hiding behind it, on the other hand, are.

Everyone knew that the war was about slavery, Lincoln new however, that it was more important to preserve the Union

"If I could preserve the Union and not free a single slave, I would do it."

He also new that most Notherners would never support a war when it was about slavery, as they never took truly to abolition (nor later on, to equal rights for blacks.)

How many free Blacks served with the Union military?
178,000, give or take.
How many free Blacks served with the Confederate military?
How many whites served in the Confederate armed forces?

You really have to look at the mind set of your typical poor Southerner back then, they most likely didn't have the education that we have today. They were simple farm folks, and really they could care less about the slaves. They fought because they wanted to protect their land, and protect their home. To them, the South was their home, it was their land.



Some did, some didn't.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, God the only reason slavery came into the picture was because Abe Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, and even then that was just a political move to cripple the South. Really, Abe didn't even want to end slavery, he just wanted to limit it to the South. The Civil War was a fight between Federal government, and State government.

I think it's important to keep mind that you are spouting revisionist bullshit.

The warp and woof of the Confederacy was slavery (and particularly the expansion of slavery).

The Declarations of Secession make this clear, as does Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephen's "Cornerstone" speech.

A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union. (http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/reasons.html#Mississippi)

.... Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
....



http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=76

Alexander H. Stephen's Cornerstone Speech:
...

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other —though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists amongst us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind—from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just—but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.

....

Oh, boy...

Why does anyone give a shit about it? The Confederate flag, like all symbols, is only what you make it to me. To some, it's southern pride, to others it's history, and so on.

It's your choice to see it however you please, but please keep those opinions out of my way, because I'll just take them with a grain of salt, or write you off as (insert political ideology/stereotype here).

Oh, boy...

Why does anyone give a shit about it? The Confederate flag, like all symbols, is only what you make it to me. To some, it's southern pride, to others it's history, and so on.

It's your choice to see it however you please, but please keep those opinions out of my way, because I'll just take them with a grain of salt, or write you off as (insert political ideology/stereotype here).

your name suits you well, we cannot just ignore symbols, as they define us as a civilization.

What do the people of NS think of allowing Confederate flags to be flown? Is it just a tribute to history, or outright racist? I find it quite offensive, but for the sake of arguement, if no one comes foward to defend it, I will not mind playing the role of devils advocate.

I don't find it rascist at all. Hell to be honest, one black guy was trying to protect his right for displaying the flag at functions (that being in my local area of course), and he was proud of having it. I figure its just how the flag is used. I have two Nazi flags hanging in my room right now, both the "Battle Flag" and standard NSDAP Flag, and I never flown them in anger once.

Well, if states or countries wish to get rid of them, thats their choice, but really I don't see a point in it. If we really were nitpicky about flag histories, then even the US Flag would be abolished because of all the stuff we did back in the 1800's.

The flag itself, as an inanimate object without opinions or a conciousness, is not. The people hiding behind it, on the other hand, are.

Nice attempt of word play. ;)

It is a medium for expressing hatred and racism.

your name suits you well, we cannot just ignore symbols, as they define us as a civilization.

I'm not asking you to ignore symbols, I'm simply asking that others keep their interpretations of said symbols out of my life as much as possible, because I probably have already formed my opinion on it, or soon will.

I know you're going to scream "close-minded" and you're probably correct - on things such as the Confederate flag, I've already seen my salvation and will never budge from my previously formed opinion.

*snip*

Oh my gawd!

How are you? Where have you been?

I don't find it rascist at all. Hell to be honest, one black guy was trying to protect his right for displaying the flag at functions (that being in my local area of course), and he was proud of having it. I figure its just how the flag is used. I have two Nazi flags hanging in my room right now, both the "Battle Flag" and standard NSDAP Flag, and I never flown them in anger once.

Well, if states or countries wish to get rid of them, thats their choice, but really I don't see a point in it. If we really were nitpicky about flag histories, then even the US Flag would be abolished because of all the stuff we did back in the 1800's.

And you don't think that the Nazi flag, one of the symbols of the most racist regime in the history of the world, is racist?

You have another thing coming.

And you don't think that the Nazi flag, one of the symbols of the most racist regime in the history of the world, is racist?

You have another thing coming.

Then you may wonder why most Indo-Asian societys have Swatstikas in their temples long before Hitler was born.

I think it's important to keep mind that you are spouting revisionist bullshit.

it seems to me that he has been told this before, too

I don't find it rascist at all....I have two Nazi flags hanging in my room right now

surprise, surprise

Then you may wonder why most Indo-Asian societys have Swatstikas in their temples long before Hitler was born.

They use the swastika as a religious symbol, you are using it in its racist connotation.

Then you may wonder why most Indo-Asian societys have Swatstikas in their temples long before Hitler was born.

Meanings change all the time. Meanings are lost in time.

For example, the childrens rhyme of "Ring around the Roses"

The Swastika of the Nazis is also set different then traditional Swastikas.

I laughed so hard reading this thread, as I remmembered back too this "Simpsons" episode. The one where everyone thinks Bart is unpatriotic, as he accidently burns an american flag.

Anyway the texan guy (http://www.duffzone.org/grabpics/thumbs/kra.texan_thumb.gif) gets pissed and yells:

"You communist scum! Thats the flag ma' grandpappy rebelled against!"

I laughed so hard reading this thread, as I remmembered back too this "Simpsons" episode. The one where everyone thinks Bart is unpatriotic, as he accidently burns an american flag.

Anyway the texan guy (http://www.duffzone.org/grabpics/thumbs/kra.texan_thumb.gif) gets pissed and yells:

"You communist scum! Thats the flag ma' grandpappy rebelled against!"

I remembered that episode. Lol, it was great.

They use the swastika as a religious symbol, you are using it in its racist connotation.

Honestly I don't care if it was modified to a racist form or whatever, its just a bloody piece of fabric. It all comes down to whomever uses the flag and what purpose it's being used for.

And, frankly, the most widely-known "Confederate Flag", the Naval Jack, is the Confederacy's maritime flag. The Confederate States Navy doesn't really strike me as a hate group. AFAIK, their worst "crime" was privateering, a practice which has been widely used throughout naval history.

Hehehe - I have both a Confederate Navy Jack and a version of Calico Jack's Jolly Rodger hanging on my walls, among others (including the Texas and US flags). :)

Why?
Texas - I'm a proud Texan.
US - I'm American.
Navy Jack - It's part of my history.
Jolly Rodger - It's partly political, but mostly fun.

178,000, give or take.

How many whites served in the Confederate armed forces?

Black Soldier numbers vary from 25000 to 50000.

Also are issues of the Creole. Do they fit the classification?

I remembered that episode. Lol, it was great.

Ya, I like how the texan always has two pistols on him :p

Ya, I like how the texan always has two pistols on him :p

Sorta reminds me of Pattons revolvers....if I just had a set like that, XP.

Can we please get back on topic, thanks.

These are simply people who want to remember their history. A big problem I see is that people seem to think that if you ignore history, it will go away. The Confederate flag(s) are part of the history of these states, the people in these states, for good or ill, want them to remain part of their culture, to deny the flags is like trying to deny slavery.

You can't say one part of history happened and ignore the rest in hopes that no one will remember. In an attempt to keep from offending one group, you simply offend another group. Then you get this lovely downward spiral, the sole aim of which is to separate us even more.

The flag(s) are a symbol to two groups. Combine the symbolism, use them as a tool to unite rather than divide. They represent a past that needs to be remembered, they can also represent a future of unity and cohesiveness.

Flag of slavery and treason.

I think people have a right to wave, burn, do whatever with whatever flag they want.

Southerners just shouldn't be suprised when other people call the flag racist. If they can deal with that, then do whatever with it.

These are simply people who want to remember their history. A big problem I see is that people seem to think that if you ignore history, it will go away.

there is a a bit of a difference between acknowledging your shameful and horrific history, and glorifying and lying about it.

there is a a bit of a difference between acknowledging your shameful and horrific history, and glorifying and lying about it.

I don't think anyone is lying about it, we're just stating facts. The Civil War was a War between the States and the Federal Government. Getting rid of slavery wasn't the original intent of the Northern States, the original intent was to limit it to the South and hopefully slowly get rid of it. I don't have a Confederate flag, but I may get one after this discussion. I have ancestors that fought and die for the South, and I've read his diary. He never once stated that he was fighting to keep the black man down. He was fighting to protect what was his, and his family.

Hehehe - I have both a Confederate Navy Jack and a version of Calico Jack's Jolly Rodger hanging on my walls, among others (including the Texas and US flags). :)

Why?
Texas - I'm a proud Texan.
US - I'm American.
Navy Jack - It's part of my history.
Jolly Rodger - It's partly political, but mostly fun.

You sound a lot like me. I had a Michigan flag, the Bonnie Blue Flag (I'm a supporter of states' rights, but not the Confederacy) and the US Army flag. I'm in the middle of moving, so I don't have them up on my walls at the moment.

When my son was in the Navy, he got a tattoo of the American Flag and the Confederate flag crossed over an anchor. This was a statement of who and what he is now and where his family (my ex-husband's side) came from. This was not a statement about race or slavery, just about family history, past and present.

MY own family were northern abolitionists, I still support the rights of individuals and states to whatever foolishness they want (short of doing actual harm - and before anyone says that displaying a flag causes harm, there is a big difference between real harm and invented harm - some people will claim harm where none exists),

http://www.slrc-csa.org/site/images/photos/hk-and-flag-marching.jpg

I think this fellow wants a word with you.

Banning flags is always stupid. Extremists will always find new symbols or deceive some older ones as result.

I don't think anyone is lying about it, we're just stating facts.

any set of 'facts' about the civil war and what that flag symbolizes that at all attempts to downplay the fact that slavery was the absolutely dominant issue is not worthy of the name.

I have ancestors that fought and die for the South, and I've read his diary. He never once stated that he was fighting to keep the black man down. He was fighting to protect what was his, and his family.

you'd be amazed at some of the stupid shit they can get people to believe. doesn't matter at all when viewed in light of the facts.

People can fly whatever the hell kind of flag they want, regardless of how obscene or deplorable it may be.

I think all extremely racist people in the US should be enlisted and shipped to Saudi Arabia where the Muslims are racists against whites.
Actually, I hear the rankings go something like this:

At the top there's Arabs, of course.
Second come Germans. I wonder why...
Then come other Europeans.
Then come rich Asians.
Then come poor Asians from Pakistan or India.
Then come Americans.
Then come Jews.

But that was in Dubai. Maybe they have other rules across the border. :p

Actually, I hear the rankings go something like this:

At the top there's Arabs, of course.
Second come Germans. I wonder why...
Then come other Europeans.
Then come rich Asians.
Then come poor Asians from Pakistan or India.
Then come Americans.
Then come Jews.

But that was in Dubai. Maybe they have other rules across the border. :p
I don't understand your list. :confused:

I don't understand your list. :confused:

^ What HR said. ^

What do the people of NS think of allowing Confederate flags to be flown? Is it just a tribute to history, or outright racist? I find it quite offensive, but for the sake of arguement, if no one comes foward to defend it, I will not mind playing the role of devils advocate.

Tacky. Tasteless. Perhaps indicative of pervasive fetal alcohol syndrome, and a definite precursor to full-blown mulletdom and - xenophobia.

I have no problem, whatsoever, with the confederate flag. I'm not denying that slavery was an issue but I am denying it to be the ultimate reasons for the war.

http://www.arikah.com/encyclopedia/American_Civil_War

In 1862 the large, bloody battles began. After the Battle of Antietam in September 1862, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation made the freeing of the slaves a war goal — one bitterly opposed by Copperheads. Emancipation ensured that Britain and France did not intervene to help the Confederates. In addition, the goal also allowed the Union to recruit African-Americans for reinforcements
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The War had begun in 1861. To those who argue slavery was the #1 issue...Then why did the Union (Federal Government) wait to list it as a war goal until almost the end of the year 1862? Simply because Lincoln did it mainly for strategic reasons. Doing so would allow the Union to recruit them and would also ensure that Britain and France would not help the Confederacy.

Those who argue that slavery was the main reason for the war, please explain to me why did it take Lincoln and the North almost 2 years after the start of the war to add the abolition of slavery to the war goals? :confused:

That just doesn't make sense to me. I thought most wars in the history of this world all had their main reasons for the war at the beginning of the war and even before the first shot fired. Why wait almost 2 years?

Any symbol can be used by an extremist or hate group. Nazi Germany is a prime example, they used a beloved and cherished symbol and turned it into hate. Not everybody who has a Confederate Flag is representing Hate. It's a symbol of Southern Heritage, History, Family. To claim it is solely possessed to voice Hate and Slavery is just simply incorrect.

Slavery was the main reason for the war, it is the single most important factor in brewing mistrust and misgivings between the two sections.

It just wasn't the direct cause... And Personally I think Lincoln was quite a hypocrite ( hope I don't get flamed for saying that...).

But I'm not saying it is 'solely possessed to voice Hate and Slavery', I'm saying it clearly demonstrates widespread retardation, most likely due to multigenerational, chronic alcohol abuse.

They are a part of the history of the United States so I do not find them any more offensive that the "Union Jack."
The Nazi regime is an important part of the history of Germany; is their flag not offensive?

The Nazi regime is an important part of the history of Germany; is their flag not offensive?

That's hardly comparable don't you think? Totally different scales.

The Nazi regime is an important part of the history of Germany; is their flag not offensive?

Not to German Nazis, no.

If one were to consider the fact that the Slavery was still legal in the Union throughout the Civil War, and even for a brief time afterward, they might find this association a bit odd.
The only reason that the Civil War is so associated with slavery is that Lincoln wanted a way to strip the South of one of its few strategic resources and ensure that there would be no chance for a compromise peace.
The reason for the Emancipation Proclamation was to give a moral cover to the Union's actions in the eyes of the international community. Lincoln was understandably concerned about imperial western European powers intervening on the Confederate side.

That's hardly comparable don't you think? Totally different scales.

You keep right on minimizing. Civil War? A luncheon gone wrong.

You keep right on minimizing. Civil War? A luncheon gone wrong.

Errr..... I thought I quoted Nazi Germany?

Errr..... I thought I quoted Nazi Germany?

Yeah, but obviously it's really about the American Civil War, what with this being a thread about Confederate flags, and all.

Yeah, but obviously it's really about the American Civil War, what with this being a thread about Confederate flags, and all.

Well, American Civil War and World War Two are hardly comparable in scale, so what was wrong with my statement? :confused:

Rather what did you mean.....

A flag is no more or no less than what you believe it to be. Initially they were simply a method for illiterate conbatants to know who was who. Now they seem to be more important than what they are believed to stand for.

Oh, and by the way, it's not the Civil War, it's The War Between the States.

I have also heard it called "The War of Northern Aggression" and "The Late Great Unpleasantness" but outside of the South it's definitely called the Civil War.

It's like how we're both talking about the same battle when you say Sharpsburg and I say Antietam.

Well, American Civil War and World War Two are hardly comparable in scale, so what was wrong with my statement? :confused:

Rather what did you mean.....

Evil isn't mitigated by scale.

Evil isn't mitigated by scale.

Yes, but unlike Nazi Germany I don't think the Confederacy tried to carry out any 'final solution' on its black population....

Yes, but unlike Nazi Germany I don't think the Confederacy tried to carry out any 'final solution' on its black population....

No, evidently they were content with their 'first solution'. And?

No, evidently they were content with their 'first solution'. And?

And so the connotations associated with their respective flags ought to be different.

And so the connotations associated with their respective flags ought to be different.

Not in my books.

Not in my books.

You think killing 30-40 million people is the same as declaring independence to preserve slavery? Err... well, ok, but at least I wasn't minimising anything was I.

And so the connotations associated with their respective flags ought to be different.
Both governments were guilty of extreme human rights abuses. The Confederates were not quite as bad as the Nazis, but that doesn't mean that they were not evil.

at least I wasn't minimising anything was I.

Except the Civil War, of course.

Both governments were guilty of extreme human rights abuses. The Confederates were not quite as bad as the Nazis, but that doesn't mean that they were not evil.

Well, I see a difference in using the state for mass murder, and organising a state on an existing society with an exisitng system of slavery. I mean, slavery was alive and well under the Stars and Stripes wasn't it? If the South created the Confederacy so that they could start enslaving the African population I would say ban the flag too....

And while we are on the topic, in 1864 the Confederacy proposed to abolish slavery if Britain would intervene in the U.S. Civil War on their behalf. For the South states' rights is just as important a trigger for Civil War as is slavery, particularly seeing how not all slave states did secede.

Well, I see a difference in using the state for mass murder, and organising a state on an existing society with an exisitng system of slavery. I mean, slavery was alive and well under the Stars and Stripes wasn't it? If the South created the Confederacy so that they could start enslaving the African population I would say ban the flag too....

So apathy should be held in high esteem is what you're saying.

So apathy should be held in high esteem is what you're saying.

No. Just that the Confederacy was not all about slavery nor was it its aim to enslave.

Both governments were guilty of extreme human rights abuses. The Confederates were not quite as bad as the Nazis, but that doesn't mean that they were not evil.

and the same could be said about the Union in regards to the way they treated their immigrants.

and the same could be said about the Union in regards to the way they treated their immigrants.

Or the Indians.

Well, I see a difference in using the state for mass murder, and organising a state on an existing society with an exisitng system of slavery. I mean, slavery was alive and well under the Stars and Stripes wasn't it? If the South created the Confederacy so that they could start enslaving the African population I would say ban the flag too....
Anti-Semitism existed in Germany before the Nazis. They just institutionalised it. The Confederates did the same thing with slavery. Besides, if slavery was alive and well under the Stars and Stripes why was there any need to form a breakaway government?

and the same could be said about the Union in regards to the way they treated their immigrants.
They didn't enslave their immigrants. The Union's worst crimes were probably against the Native Americans.

Anti-Semitism existed in Germany before the Nazis. They just institutionalised it. The Confederates did the same thing with slavery. Besides, if slavery was alive and well under the Stars and Stripes why was there any need to form a breakaway government?

The Holocaust wasn't all about killing Jews; that's a convenient fairy tale. Roughly as many Slavs died, and millions of Poles were killed off systematically too. Operation Barbarossa killed off 27 million Russians.

Besides the Confederacy didn't institutionalise racism; they just didn't do anything about slavery.

Anti-Semitism existed in Germany before the Nazis. They just institutionalised it. The Confederates did the same thing with slavery. Besides, if slavery was alive and well under the Stars and Stripes why was there any need to form a breakaway government?

Politics... :eek:

State Rights and economic reasons...The Union wanted to have full control over the South plus take their money. These are the main reasons for the Civil War which to Abe Lincoln almost 2 years after the start of the war to list slavery as a war goal. Which, I might add, wasn't because Lincoln cherished African-Americans but more for political and strategic reasons such as by adding slavery as a war goal would ensure the British and French would not intervene on the side of the Confederacy among other politically motivated reasons.

No. Just that the Confederacy was not all about slavery nor was it its aim to enslave.

You're right: except for the slave traders, and those who owned slaves and profited from their labour, the Confederacy was not all about slavery. It was about genteel luncheons and idyllic greenery.:rolleyes:

And I'll concede that it's aim was not to enslave, but to improve the lives of its' white citizenry by remaining apathetic and doing nothing in light of the FUCKING SLAVERY going on in their midsts.

Besides the Confederacy didn't institutionalise racism; they just didn't do anything about slavery.

Apathy does not deserve veneration.

They didn't enslave their immigrants. The Union's worst crimes were probably against the Native Americans.

Well, Executive Order 9066 placed more than a hundred thousand Japanese civilians in concentration camps that pretty much destroyed their lives as well as several billion dollars' worth of property.

Well, Executive Order 9066 placed more than a hundred thousand Japanese civilians in concentration camps that pretty much destroyed their lives as well as several billion dollars' worth of property.

Except that happened in 1942, long after the Civil War. Remember?

You're right: except for the slave traders, and those who owned slaves and profited from their labour, the Confederacy was not all about slavery. It was about genteel luncheons and idyllic greenery.:rolleyes:


It was also about a South wanting independence from what they saw as an increasingly powerful, controlling central government. Slavery was the issue they worried the most about, and it was the most important issue over which the prospect of federal control eventually led them to split. But that doesn't mean the state that they then formed was all about slavery.


Apathy does not deserve veneration.

Neither does it need to be condemned. The Union also tolerated slavery for decades and only eliminated it as a war measure, for purely political benefits. Should America stop flying that flag?

Except that happened in 1942, long after the Civil War. Remember?

......How's that related? The Union should still be evil, by your standards.

......How's that related?

I was hoping you'd tell us, seeing as you brought it up.

The Union should still be evil, by your standards.

Who said the current administration isn't?

I was hoping you'd tell us, seeing as you brought it up.



Who said the current administration isn't?


What the hell are you on about? I mentioned an example of American mistreatment of immigrants. You linked it to the Civil War. Is there supposed to be some sort of magical connection here?

They didn't enslave their immigrants. The Union's worst crimes were probably against the Native Americans.

I never said they enslaved their immigrants. I said the way they treated their immigrants. Meaning...Very poor wages for hard core and horrendous job duties that barely and in some cases didn't afforded them to eat along with their roach infested shacks which all of which would definately have been condemned in today's society. Let the immigrants do the work and labor that the nationals preferred not to and whatnot. During that time (pre-Civil War), the Union has a very poor record of the way they treated and paid the immigrants.

Also, as for how the History of the Civil War is taught and portrayed is very suspect considering most of the documents from the Confederacy were either lost or destroyed and how the Union kept their records and stats and basicly wrote History as they wanted it written...Yes, suspect at the very least.

What the hell are you on about? I mentioned an example of American mistreatment of immigrants. You linked it to the Civil War. Is there supposed to be some sort of magical connection here?

Again, you tell me. What does the internment of Japanese-American civilians have to do with Confederate flags?

Again, you tell me. What does the internment of Japanese-American civilians have to do with Confederate flags?

So basically you're picking on me for posting stuff not obviously related to Confederate flags.

Evil isn't mitigated by scale.

Please demonstrate what this has to do with Confederate flags.

......How's that related? The Union should still be evil, by your standards.
You know, sometimes I can't help the feeling that they are. I mean, 65 years later, the U.S. is still using concentration camps.

Not to German Nazis, no.

Or perhaps this one. I don't see how it links to Confederate flags at all except perhaps that they all existed on this planet; but you might want to enlighten the rest of us.

So basically you're picking on me for posting stuff not obviously related to Confederate flags.

No, I'm picking on you for other reasons. Go back and re-read our exchange, if you must.

Not in my books.

Again what does your book have to do with Confederate flags?

Hmm, feel persecuted much?

No, I'm picking on you for other reasons. Go back and re-read our exchange, if you must.

Exchange? You mean this:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pacifist Womble: They didn't enslave their immigrants. The Union's worst crimes were probably against the Native Americans.

Me: Well, Executive Order 9066 placed more than a hundred thousand Japanese civilians in concentration camps that pretty much destroyed their lives as well as several billion dollars' worth of property.

You: Except that happened in 1942, long after the Civil War. Remember?

Me: ......How's that related? The Union should still be evil, by your standards.

You: I was hoping you'd tell us, seeing as you brought it up

Me: What the hell are you on about? I mentioned an example of American mistreatment of immigrants. You linked it to the Civil War. Is there supposed to be some sort of magical connection here?

You: Again, you tell me. What does the internment of Japanese-American civilians have to do with Confederate flags?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have examined everything and concludes that you simply can't stand people holding different views to you.

Hmm, feel persecuted much?

Once again nothing to do with Confederate flags.

No, I'm picking on you for other reasons. Go back and re-read our exchange, if you must.

Since you obviously don't understand some of the most simple logic there is, I'll point out that this also have nothing directly to do with Confederate flags.

Personally, I would normally not care, its just that everybody is getting upset over the wrong flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag).

Of course, its the symbology and what a bunch of idiot hics who dont know their history THINK is the CSA's flag that gets people offended, so nobody really cares.
I guess its the same reason only a few people get upset when somebody starts waving, say, a Soviet flag around.

Which is quite funny, really. The Soviet Union was, in pretty much every way, far worse than the CSA. But the CSA was composed of dirty slave-holding, traitor, hics. So its alright.

Yeah your right, let's allow people to fly a symbol of sucession and racism.

The original meaning does not matter as much, what matters is what it has become, symbol for bigotry and ingorance. The KKK has taken it in as one of their signs, just like they have with the Nazi flag and their wierd cross thingy(which, as a Christian, disgusts me).



Yeah youre right. Since they're all symbols of the KKK let's ban the Confederate flag, the "Nazi flag" and the cross! They disgust me.

They didn't enslave their immigrants. The Union's worst crimes were probably against the Native Americans.

True.

Blacks were also treated abominably, though, as were immigrants.

Since you obviously don't understand some of the most simple logic there is, I'll point out that this also have nothing directly to do with Confederate flags.

...But apathy does.

...But apathy does.

Apathy means indifference, which has no direct link to Confederate flags except in your head. So once again I maintain that you simply cannot understand normal logics.

...But apathy does.

So did I mention that this post also has nothing to do with Confederate flags?

Apathy means indifference, which has no direct link to Confederate flags except in your head. So once again I maintain that you simply cannot understand normal logics.

I disagree. Indifference has a great deal to do with the Confederate flag. As I've already illustrated for you.

I disagree. Indifference has a great deal to do with the Confederate flag. As I've already illustrated for you.

At last we see a post from you that's actually something to do with Confederate flags, although it seems to me that you simply chucked the words so as to achieve that. Because it makes no sense whatsoever.

Then again you're obviously thinking in such a way that it is incomprehensible to me.

Personally, I would normally not care, its just that everybody is getting upset over the wrong flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag).

Yeah, I pointed that out on the first page. Nobody took note, annoyingly enough...

At last we see a post from you that's actually something to do with Confederate flags, although it seems to me that you simply chucked the words so as to achieve that. Because it makes no sense whatsoever.
I pointed out that indifference, or apathy, as I'd described it myself - had a great deal to do with the Confederacy, and not "except in (my) head". I further said that I had already illustrated that for you. What tasks your comprehension so?
Then again you're obviously thinking in such a way that it is incomprehensible to me.

No doubt true. And more's the pity.

I see Dobbsworld made another reply; just want to point out that it's also got nothing to do with Confederate flags except in some twisted logic.

Although I can't actually see the post (or intends to) I believe I can safely make this assumption based on the last couple of pages.

Yeah, I pointed that out on the first page. Nobody took note, annoyingly enough...

People on this forum tend to do that, I guess its more fun to argue when you can ignore things outside of the immidiate issue.

People on this forum tend to do that, I guess its more fun to argue when you can ignore things outside of the immidiate issue.

I guess that's what Dobbsworld is trying to do then....

I see Dobbsworld made another reply; just want to point out that it's also got nothing to do with Confederate flags except in some twisted logic.

Although I can't actually see the post (or intends to) I believe I can safely make this assumption based on the last couple of pages.

I'm not clear as to what your problem is, but I'm guessing you now have me on ignore. Good for you.

Yet another reply from Dobbsworld. Another post that has nothing to do with Confederate flags.

Well, hopefully by now Dobbsworld realises that not all posts made in this thread has to be directly on the topic of Confederate flags. Then again given the level of intellegence demonstrated Dobbsworld has demonstrated in these posts I highly doubt that.

Yet another reply from Dobbsworld. Another post that has nothing to do with Confederate flags.

Well, hopefully by now Dobbsworld realises that not all posts made in this thread has to be directly on the topic of Confederate flags. Then again given the level of intellegence demonstrated in these posts I highly doubt that.

I concur. Given the level of intelligence demonstrated in these posts, I highly concur.

Can anybody else feel the love in this thread?
I know I can.

And can you feel the love tonight?
It is where we are
It's enough for this wide-eyed wanderer
That we got this far
And can you feel the love tonight
How it's laid to rest?
It's enough to make kings and vagabonds
Believe the very best

Before I go this is what happaned, just for the record, and apologies to anyone else who might be reading this thread. Sorry about the spamming(?)... I don't usually do this. So I feel like I should explain myself.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pacifist Womble: The Nazi regime is an important part of the history of Germany; is their flag not offensive?

Me: That's hardly comparable don't you think? Totally different scales.

Dobbsworld: You keep right on minimizing. Civil War? A luncheon gone wrong.

Me: Errr..... I thought I quoted Nazi Germany?

Dobbsworld: Yeah, but obviously it's really about the American Civil War, what with this being a thread about Confederate flags, and all.

Me: Well, American Civil War and World War Two are hardly comparable in scale, so what was wrong with my statement?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pacifist Womble: They didn't enslave their immigrants. The Union's worst crimes were probably against the Native Americans.

Me: Well, Executive Order 9066 placed more than a hundred thousand Japanese civilians in concentration camps that pretty much destroyed their lives as well as several billion dollars' worth of property.

Dobbsworld: Except that happened in 1942, long after the Civil War. Remember?

Me: ......How's that related? The Union should still be evil, by your standards.

Dobbsworld: I was hoping you'd tell us, seeing as you brought it up

Me: What the hell are you on about? I mentioned an example of American mistreatment of immigrants. You linked it to the Civil War. Is there supposed to be some sort of magical connection here?

Dobbsworld: Again, you tell me. What does the internment of Japanese-American civilians have to do with Confederate flags?

Me: So basically you're picking on me for posting stuff not obviously related to Confederate flags.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder why both started with The Pacifist Womble :confused:

Can anybody else feel the love in this thread?
I know I can.
Love like the Klingons like it...

Before I go *snips*



So it's forum martyrdom followed by a pre-emptive retreat for you, then? Ah well. Anyone who wants to can go back and read about it all they like, your excerpts don't phaze me.

Love like the Klingons like it...

Ah, the old 'Ride it like a Blakh'ta' approach.

Right. From people who they feared wanted to end slavery.

Yeah... as slaves.

You have either not studied or have chosen to ignore the history leading up to and of the Civil War.

As far as the war goes, I don't have any sympathy with the South. Succeeding was quite possibly the stupidest thing they could've done. Okay, sure, they had to deal with an anti-slavery president, but the president still had to deal with Congress and the Supreme Court. If the southern states had stayed in the Union they would've been able to use the democratic system to maintain their rights. Just think about, if they had used the democratic system the South might be swarming with African Marxist Guerrillas. Or the entire country could be dealing with an African version of the IRA. Most likely the South would've gone all Haiti way before the 1920s.

As far is the flag is concerned: the worst thing about the flag is that during the 50s/60s it was used by groups opposed to granting equal rights to blacks. Oh, and the fact that it used by a Nation that wanted to keep slavery as an economic and social institution.

Utter ahistorical nonsense.

No, it wasn't. The South didn't care about states' rights when they interfered with their interests; it was just a convenient excuse.


You don't know very much about the causes of the Civil War do you or you have been studying the "Revisionist History of the War Between the States." :(

Nice attempt of word play. ;)

It is a medium for expressing hatred and racism.

Would you say the same about the Union Jack? http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:MkqYC6aBL3EgsM:www.anbg.gov.au/images/flags/union-jack.gif

I live in upstate New York and there are Confederate flags running amok everywhere. Sort of depressing, really.

Let me say right off the bat I am not a racist KKK member, I used to live in west Philly, and several of my best friends are black.
That said, the Civil War wasn't about slavery. Slavery was the north's "moral high-ground" The south tried to declare independance, and the north use slavery as an excuse to attack. The south fought a completely defensive war untill Gettysburg (probably mis-spelled), at which point they were in northern territory. The south did what the US did in the American Revolution, but only they lost, so they are now portrayed as the bad guys.
Fun fact- Lee himself was a fierce opponent of slavery. He was also offered comand of the Army of the Pottomac, though he resigned, so that he could defend his home country.
Throughout the war, it was the north, not the south, who were the agrresors, and the north treated Black men and women almost as badly. Thus, I don't see why the Confederate flag is a problem.

Would you say the same about the Union Jack? http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:MkqYC6aBL3EgsM:www.anbg.gov.au/images/flags/union-jack.gif

The Brits have protests about Niggers and talk about white rights?

The Brits have protests about Niggers and talk about white rights?

No, they just had this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_empire

The Brits have protests about Niggers and talk about white rights?

Well, a very tiny, ugly, and inconsequential minority do (*cough* BNP *cough*).

No, they just had this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_empire

The Confederacy was about building empires?

The KKK are in reality an empire looking to expand?

Well, a very tiny, ugly, and inconsequential minority do (*cough* BNP *cough*).

They have protests and wave the UJ around?

The Confederacy was about building empires?

The KKK are in reality an empire looking to expand?

Well, I'll agree they're looking to expand, anyway.

They have protests and wave the UJ around?

I don't know, I was just pointing out that Southerners don't hold a monopoly on racist bigotry (I never implied that you thought they did, I was just pointing out).

Well, I'll agree they're looking to expand, anyway.

Interesting? They are up your way? sorry about that.

Anyhow, it's a weak justification on their part.

I would like to see them compare the KKK to the British Empire.....

You keep right on minimizing. Civil War? A luncheon gone wrong.

He isn't minimizing the Civil War. All he is saying is you can not compare the two. :rolleyes:

I don't know, I was just pointing out that Southerners don't hold a monopoly on racist bigotry (I never implied that you thought they did, I was just pointing out).

That's the problem though. Take the UJ and ask people what comes to mind and most will talk about Great Britain and what not. Few will talk about racism.

Take the Confederate flag and you will hear people talk about the KKK and white power....

The KKK are in reality an empire looking to expand?

In a sense, yes. They are the "Invisible Empire."

That's the problem though. Take the UJ and ask people what comes to mind and most will talk about Great Britain and what not. Few will talk about racism.

Take the Confederate flag and you will hear people talk about the KKK and white power....

True.

The Brits have protests about Niggers and talk about white rights?

The Brits practiced genocide against the Irish and enslaved most of the native people in their colonies.

The Brits practiced genocide against the Irish and enslaved most of the native people in their colonies.

I am a little more versed then you think. You want to talk about Scotland?

So lets see the comparison of the KKK and the Empire?

I am a little more versed then you think. You want to talk about Scotland?

So lets see the comparison of the KKK and the Empire?

I never said there is a comparison between the KKK and the Empire. My point is if people consider the Confederate flag a symbol of racism do those same people consider the Union Jack a symbol of racism. If not, why not?

Eh I don't see it as a sign of "racism" or "aggravation" etc. Many people just don't realize that only the rich people own slaved, and God knows they never fought in the battles of the Civil War. Only the poor people fought, and the reason they fought was not for the rich man, but to protect their home, and their land. Many blacks also served under the Confederate flag, so before you call it a "racist" symbol, just think about that for a minute.

http://mariesgiftshop.com/images/afghans/Miscellaneous/Stars%20and%20Bars%20Afghan.jpg


So what about Stonewall Jackson and Robert E Lee, and many other senior officers of the CSA? They were what you call "rich" people they fought and many of them died. That statement that only the poor fought is about as dumb as it is when used today for the vietnam war or the Iraq war. Don't make blanket statement. Hell many "rich" people back then formed their own regiments and supplied them out of their own pockets so that they had good weapons and equipment.

You sound a lot like me. I had a Michigan flag, the Bonnie Blue Flag (I'm a supporter of states' rights, but not the Confederacy) and the US Army flag. I'm in the middle of moving, so I don't have them up on my walls at the moment.

Your not gone yet you bum? Hey Safe flight when you go and let us know when you get there.

Again, you tell me. What does the internment of Japanese-American civilians have to do with Confederate flags?

Maybe we should ban the stars and stripes over that because it denotes racism I think is what he means.

For the South states' rights is just as important a trigger for Civil War as is slavery, particularly seeing how not all slave states did secede.
The right to keep slavery?

The Holocaust wasn't all about killing Jews; that's a convenient fairy tale. Roughly as many Slavs died, and millions of Poles were killed off systematically too. Operation Barbarossa killed off 27 million Russians.
I'm well aware that Jews were not the only target group of the Holocaust. Slavs haven't got the same publicity because they mostly live in Eastern Europe and were repressed by Soviets for most of the past 60 years.

Operation Barbarossa was a military invasion, not a part of the Holocaust.

These are the main reasons for the Civil War which to Abe Lincoln almost 2 years after the start of the war to list slavery as a war goal. Which, I might add, wasn't because Lincoln cherished African-Americans but more for political and strategic reasons such as by adding slavery as a war goal would ensure the British and French would not intervene on the side of the Confederacy among other politically motivated reasons.
A fact highlighted by me earlier in the thread:

The reason for the Emancipation Proclamation was to give a moral cover to the Union's actions in the eyes of the international community. Lincoln was understandably concerned about imperial western European powers intervening on the Confederate side.

......How's that related? The Union should still be evil, by your standards.
The USA has done many different things since 1865, some good some bad. The CSA ceased to exist, so in memory it is forever frozen with the image of what it was fighting for back then.


I guess its the same reason only a few people get upset when somebody starts waving, say, a Soviet flag around.
In countries that were formerly abused by the Soviet Empire, such as Hungary, Lithuania and Ukraine, many people do get upset and rightly so.

Love like the Klingons like it...

Don't drag the klingons into this they have stayed neutral.

Let me say right off the bat I am not a racist KKK member, I used to live in west Philly, and several of my best friends are black.
That said, the Civil War wasn't about slavery. Slavery was the north's "moral high-ground" The south tried to declare independance, and the north use slavery as an excuse to attack. The south fought a completely defensive war untill Gettysburg (probably mis-spelled), at which point they were in northern territory. The south did what the US did in the American Revolution, but only they lost, so they are now portrayed as the bad guys.
Fun fact- Lee himself was a fierce opponent of slavery. He was also offered comand of the Army of the Pottomac, though he resigned, so that he could defend his home country.
Throughout the war, it was the north, not the south, who were the agrresors, and the north treated Black men and women almost as badly. Thus, I don't see why the Confederate flag is a problem.
Anyone may use the Confederate flag in my eyes, but I disagree with your statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

I go to college in southern georgia. Down here, theres a confederate flag on every block. Its not really racist, it just symbolizes a way of life.

Maybe we should ban the stars and stripes over that because it denotes racism I think is what he means.
However the US flag was also flown by the same country that passed civil rights acts for blacks in the 1960s and after. Thus it is somewhat redeemed. However the CSA is irredeemable for obvious reasons.

I go to college in southern georgia. Down here, theres a confederate flag on every block. Its not really racist, it just symbolizes a way of life.
I would love you to tell me what way of life that is?

However the US flag was also flown by the same country that passed civil rights acts for blacks in the 1960s and after. Thus it is somewhat redeemed. However the CSA is irredeemable for obvious reasons.

The obvious reason being that it was dismantled before it had a chance to pass the civil rights acts of the 1960s.

As for the USA being redeemed, well, these are just small crimes on its part:
Police brutality, disputed shootings and ill-treatment in prisons and jails were reported. In May the U.N. Committee against Torture considered the initial report of the USA on implementation of the U.N. Convention against Torture. Eighty-five prisoners were executed in 14 states bringing to 683 the total number of people executed since 1976. Those executed included individuals who were children under 18 at the time of their crimes, and the mentally impaired.
The Guantánamo Bay detention camp has become a symbol of the United States administration’s refusal to put human rights and the rule of law at the heart of its response to the atrocities of 11 September 2001. It has become synonymous with the United States executive’s pursuit of unfettered power, and has become firmly associated with the systematic denial of human dignity and resort to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment that has marked the USA’s detentions and interrogations in the "war on terror".

Anyone may use the Confederate flag in my eyes, but I disagree with your statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

Don't forget that secession was also Unconstitutional.

Don't forget that secession was also Unconstitutional.

Where in the constitution does it say that a state can not leave the Union?

I would love you to tell me what way of life that is?

You know, huntin, campin, skinnin deer, trailblazing on dirtbikes, gettin drunk in the afternoon on the front porch, talkin about how the damn liberal media hates bush, led zeppelin, talkin to truckers on the CB radio, all that stuff them city slickers are missin, ect. Its really a unique culture down here.

Where in the constitution does it say that a state can not leave the Union?

Article Six, I believe.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Article Six, I believe.

actually here is the full text of the 6th article

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

And no where in there does it say a state can not leave the Union.

Operation Barbarossa was a military invasion, not a part of the Holocaust.
While it is true that Operation Barbarossa was a military invasion, please don't forget that in the East, the Germans fought a war of extermination.
Don't drag the klingons into this they have stayed neutral.
No, they violated the Neutral Zone and had tough love in Federation Space!

While it is true that Operation
No, they violated the Neutral Zone and had tough love in Federation Space!

That was not a violation, they were helping the Federation. Lets sit down with some Romulan Ale and discuss this, or maybe a barrel or two of Bloodwine?

You know, huntin, campin, skinnin deer, trailblazing on dirtbikes, gettin drunk in the afternoon on the front porch, talkin about how the damn liberal media hates bush, led zeppelin, talkin to truckers on the CB radio, all that stuff them city slickers are missin, ect. Its really a unique culture down here.

How awful.

actually here is the full text of the 6th article

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

And no where in there does it say a state can not leave the Union.

yes it does, but not in the words you're looking for

Maybe we should ban the stars and stripes over that because it denotes racism I think is what he means.

No, the Stars and Stripes denotes American Imperialism - which is an altogether different reason for banning a flag. And one I would agree with, as it happens.

Article Six, I believe.

Amendment X: Constitutional rights do not deny other rights.

Just replying to the OP, here:

If you want to fly a Confederate flag, feel free. Just A) don't fly it above the American flag, or the flag of your state, and B) don't be surprised people think you're a stupid, bigoted redneck.

How awful.

what is awful about that?

Let me say right off the bat I am not a racist KKK member, I used to live in west Philly, and several of my best friends are black.
That said, the Civil War wasn't about slavery. Slavery was the north's "moral high-ground" The south tried to declare independance, and the north use slavery as an excuse to attack. The south fought a completely defensive war untill Gettysburg (probably mis-spelled), at which point they were in northern territory. The south did what the US did in the American Revolution, but only they lost, so they are now portrayed as the bad guys.
Fun fact- Lee himself was a fierce opponent of slavery. He was also offered comand of the Army of the Pottomac, though he resigned, so that he could defend his home country.
Throughout the war, it was the north, not the south, who were the agrresors, and the north treated Black men and women almost as badly. Thus, I don't see why the Confederate flag is a problem.

I would have to disagree with your assessment of the cause of the Civil War. Slavery was in fact a primary reason for its cause. Even when George Washington took his oath of office the problem of slavery was already evident. The founders, already divided over the issue and not wanting to rock the boat, formed a Constitution that satisfied no one in regard to slavery and was filled with compromise. Further as time went on, whenever the US added new territory, slavery was always an issue that had to be worked out and the fights were vicious as both the free and slave states worked to maintain a balance in Congress so no side got an upper hand. Since the South was economically dependent on slavery, Northern feelings of emancipation were a direct threat to their way of life. How you can possibly try to claim that slavery was not a factor in the Civil War is simply beyond me.

The simple fact is that the Confederate flag is now used by racists to promote their ideology and historical revisionists who want to try and trumpet the lost Southern cause. I support free speech so I would be against any attempt to ban the flag but I am not going to look kindly on anyone who chooses to fly the rag.

yes it does, but not in the words you're looking for

This says they must support it but in no uncertain terms says they are not allowed to leave the Union. It just means they must support it as long as they are a member of it.

what is awful about that?

To paraphrase William S. Burroughs, "Just about everything".

To paraphrase William S. Burroughs, "Just about everything".

just because you do not like to do it does not make it awful. He and or others who enjoy those things may find what you do "awful". Differences make the world go around and make the US what it is.

just because you do not like to do it does not make it awful. He and or others who enjoy those things may find what you do "awful". Differences make the world go around and make the US what it is.

Gee thanks for taking the time to explain that one away, there Sherlock. In other news, water is wet.

How awful.

I suggest that you do not knock it ti'll you've tried it.

I suggest that you do not knock it ti'll you've tried it.

Oh Heavens, no. That I should preclude myself from taking part in such inanities should come as no small comfort to you - else I dilute the purebred hillbilly experience and ruin it for you and the bald kid with the banjo.

This says they must support it but in no uncertain terms says they are not allowed to leave the Union. It just means they must support it as long as they are a member of it.

No, in their positions as senators/representatives/etc., they left the Union, which can easily be defined as not supporting the Constitution, which is in direct violation of the Constitution.

Oh Heavens, no. That I should preclude myself from taking part in such inanities should come as no small comfort to you - else I dilute the purebred hillbilly experience and ruin it for you and the bald kid with the banjo.

Listen hear boi, I dun like the sound uh what yer sayin. Don't make me get my gun. *heads over to big green truck*

You need ta apologize to Jesus for what yer sayin.

Listen hear boi, I dun like the sound uh what yer sayin. Don't make me get my gun. *heads over to big green truck*

You need ta apologize to Jesus for what yer sayin.

Too bad Jesus wasn't there to help ensure victory for the Confederate forces, eh wot?

Gee thanks for taking the time to explain that one away, there Sherlock. In other news, water is wet.

And the sky is blue. But we still do not need to hear you condemn other peoples beliefs, because they are not yours.

I go to college in southern georgia. Down here, theres a confederate flag on every block. Its not really racist, it just symbolizes a way of life.

Slavery and treason.

No, in their positions as senators/representatives/etc., they left the Union, which can easily be defined as not supporting the Constitution, which is in direct violation of the Constitution.

No what they did in their positions was listen to their constituents and informed the Union that their states had voted for leaving the Union. Hence they did their jobs and since their states had voted to leave the Union their jobs no longer existed and so they were not in violation. Or are you saying that they should not do as the people they are elected to represent want them to do? There was no violation of the constitution.

And the sky is blue. But we still do not need to hear you condemn other peoples beleifs, because they are not yours.

First I've ever heard anyone describe getting drunk on their front porch and listening to Led Zeppelin as a "belief".

I suppose eating a burrito and playing a game of checkers is a "principle".

The obvious reason being that it was dismantled before it had a chance to pass the civil rights acts of the 1960s.

As for the USA being redeemed, well, these are just small crimes on its part:
I'm well aware of America's continuing human rights abominations. I just explained why the Union flag doesn't have the same connotations as the Southern flag.

You know, huntin, campin, skinnin deer, trailblazing on dirtbikes, gettin drunk in the afternoon on the front porch, talkin about how the damn liberal media hates bush, led zeppelin, talkin to truckers on the CB radio, all that stuff them city slickers are missin, ect. Its really a unique culture down here.
I really doubt anyone in the CSA went trailblazing on dirtbikes, talkin about how the damn liberal media hates bush, led zeppelin, talkin to truckers on the CB radio, etc.

How awful.
Let them have their fun.

Oh Heavens, no. That I should preclude myself from taking part in such inanities should come as no small comfort to you - else I dilute the purebred hillbilly experience and ruin it for you and the bald kid with the banjo.
Don't be intolerant now, they're not harming other people with their inanities.

First I've ever heard anyone describe getting drunk on their front porch and listening to Led Zeppelin as a "belief".

I suppose eating a burrito and playing a game of checkers is a "principle".

They Believe they have the right to do what they want as long as it does not harm anyone else....so yes their belief. But I am sure you are so much superior to those "hillbillies", so we should never doubt that you know better then they about what is good and proper to do.

Slavery and treason.

Come on! Every facet of the U.S. has its own culture, its own style. We are not all dumb hillbillies as t.v. might sometimes portray us, but we do celebrate traditions and lifestyles that are unique to this region. You might be caught up on a few red-necks that hate black people but lets face it, there are racist morons accross the united states.

Come on! Every facet of the U.S. has its own culture, its own style. We are not all dumb hillbillies as t.v. might sometimes portray us, but we do celebrate traditions and lifestyles that are unique to this region. You might be caught up on a few red-necks that hate black people but lets face it, there are racist morons accross the united states.

You are correct Brother.

They Believe they have the right to do what they want as long as it does not harm anyone else....so yes their belief. But I am sure you are so much superior to those "hillbillies", so we should never doubt that you know better then they about what is good and proper to do.

Good? Proper? Meh - I at least apparently know better than either you or soyut what is truly awful.

Good? Proper? Meh - I at least apparently know better than either you or soyut what is truly awful.

only in your own screwed up version of reality.:headbang:

only in your own screwed up version of reality.:headbang:

At least I don't have to endure drunken mullets cranking Zeppelin in front of the entire neighbourhood.

I tried some moonshine for the first time last night. Big fella named Zeke made it in his tractor's radiator. Got me pretty sick. That stuff'll knock you on yer ass.

At least I don't have to endure drunken mullets cranking Zeppelin in front of the entire neighbourhood.

neither do I, but I am not so full of myself to think it is wrong for anyone to enjoy it.
But I guess I was wrong in my belief that this was a free country, it is actually a country that should be run according to what Dobbsworld thinks is correct and all else should be outlawed.

It must make you feel good that throughout history those same "neanderthal hillbillies" have died to give you the right to belittle them and try to make them out to be moronic oafs because you have heard one too many redneck joke or think that they all look and act like Nascar stereotypes.

I tried some moonshine for the first time last night. Big fella named Zeke made it in his tractor's radiator. Got me pretty sick. That stuff'll knock you on yer ass.

ya got to watch that stuff some is good some is...whoa. I have had several varieties over the years and some were not too bad.

I tried some moonshine for the first time last night. Big fella named Zeke made it in his tractor's radiator. Got me pretty sick. That stuff'll knock you on yer ass.
Hehe, struck by white lightning. :D I remember getting wasted on that stuff in NC one evening. Looks like I impressed the locals in how well I tolerated the homemade "paintthinner".

I tried some moonshine for the first time last night. Big fella named Zeke made it in his tractor's radiator. Got me pretty sick. That stuff'll knock you on yer ass.

Do you think that maybe it made you sick because it was made in the radiator of a tractor? Just a thought.

ya got to watch that stuff some is good some is...whoa. I have had several varieties over the years and some were not too bad.

Being a Chemistry major, I had to talk to Zeke a while about his methods. The methyl alcohol(or wood alcohol) has a lower boiling point than ethyl alcohol. Therefore, the distiller must throw away the first few hundred ml (or 1-2%)of distillate before collecting the moonshine.

Beware of amateur distillers! They might not know what they are doing and might inadvertently put toxins in their moonshine.

Being a Chemistry major, I had to talk to Zeke a while about his methods. The methyl alcohol(or wood alcohol) has a lower boiling point than ethyl alcohol. Therefore, the distiller must throw away the first few hundred ml (or 1-2%)of distillate before collecting the moonshine.

Beware of amateur distillers! They might not know what they are doing and might inadvertently put toxins in their moonshine.

I am an engineering major thinking about changing to be a teacher. YOu need not go into the details. I trust in My southern Army buddies to make sure I only get the good stuff.:cool:

Do you think that maybe it made you sick because it was made in the radiator of a tractor? Just a thought.

Radiator fluid is a non-polar mixture. So yes you have to wash the radiator with a non-polar fluid before using it (water dosen't work). Zeke used a bunch of acetone to clean it. The acetone also evaporated from the radiator after a few hours leaving the inside clean.

Zeke's tractor never freezes in the winter.

neither do I, but I am not so full of myself to think it is wrong for anyone to enjoy it.
But I guess I was wrong in my belief that this was a free country, it is actually a country that should be run according to what Dobbsworld thinks is correct and all else should be outlawed.

It must make you feel good that throughout history those same "neanderthal hillbillies" have died to give you the right to belittle them and try to make them out to be moronic oafs because you have heard one too many redneck joke or think that they all look and act like Nascar stereotypes.

There's not a single "neanderthal hillbilly" (and I'll point out it wasn't I who introduced the word "neanderthal" to the discussion) who died to give me anything, other than a continual source of amusement and much opportunity to point fingers while laughing uproariously. I don't have to make anyone out as a "moronic oaf", honey - they make damn good targets of themselves. I couldn't even begin to tell you what a "Nascar stereotype" should look like or act like - because that sort of regional, backwater entertainment doesn't actually grace any TV screens I've ever seen, or am ever likely to see - and judging from the respondents in this thread, I should feel no small amount of pleasure in being denied the dubious pleasure of spending hours at a time watching people make left-hand turns in gaudily-painted automobiles.

Radiator fluid is a non-polar mixture. So yes you have to wash the radiator with a non-polar fluid before using it (water dosen't work). Zeke used a bunch of acetone to clean it. The acetone also evaporated from the radiator after a few hours leaving the inside clean.



I just don't think I could drink it if it came from a tractor... unless I had to. Or I was already drunk. Or I was real depressed.

Zeke's tractor never freezes in the winter.
But can it drive in a straight line?

There's not a single "neanderthal hillbilly" (and I'll point out it wasn't I who introduced the word "neanderthal" to the discussion) who died to give me anything, other than a continual source of amusement and much opportunity to point fingers while laughing uproariously. I don't have to make anyone out as a "moronic oaf", honey - they make damn good targets of themselves. I couldn't even begin to tell you what a "Nascar stereotype" should look like or act like - because that sort of regional, backwater entertainment doesn't actually grace any TV screens I've ever seen, or am ever likely to see - and judging from the respondents in this thread, I should feel no small amount of pleasure in being denied the dubious pleasure of spending hours at a time watching people make left-hand turns in gaudily-painted automobiles.

Nascar not being a"sport" I watch , I do have friends who enjoy it. And unless your not a citizen of the US your correct, but if you are a citizen you have had those hillbillies die for everything you enjoy today starting during the revolution and leading up to those who serve today. Whether you want to admit it or not is your choice. I have found it is always those who think they are better then those around them who want to deny that what they enjoy was brought about by the Blood, Sweat, and Tears of all the people who came before them. makes me go back to peoples screwed up images of reality And there are a lot of messed up respondents all over this website, but that is what Freedom of Speech is about, and proves everyone has their opinion, does not make them all right but we all have one.

But can it drive in a straight line?

Yes! Zeke takes very good care of it. That John Deer is a torque-monster. It can pull anything out of the mud!

Nascar is boring. However, I used to enjoy World Rally Championship until SpeedVision stoped showing it on Sunday nights.

... (and I'll point out it wasn't I who introduced the word "neanderthal" to the discussion) ...

First I have to put up with those Geico commercials, now they're comparing me to redneck nascar frakkin hillbillies. I am going to start a Neanderthal Anti-Defamation League.

Nascar not being a"sport" I watch , I do have friends who enjoy it. And unless your not a citizen of the US your correct, but if you are a citizen you have had those hillbillies die for everything you enjoy today starting during the revolution and leading up to those who serve today. Whether you want to admit it or not is your choice. I have found it is always those who think they are better then those around them who want to deny that what they enjoy was brought about by the Blood, Sweat, and Tears of all the people who came before them. makes me go back to peoples screwed up images of reality And there are a lot of messed up respondents all over this website, but that is what Freedom of Speech is about, and proves everyone has their opinion, does not make them all right but we all have one.

Then colour me correct, dear.

First I have to put up with those Geico commercials, now they're comparing me to redneck nascar frakkin hillbillies. I am going to start a Neanderthal Anti-Defamation League.

no offense was meant to you by me:eek: ...can't say the same for Geico.

Then colour me correct, dear.

I do not need to correct you, you have the right to your beliefs, but you should not put others down for what they do.

I do not need to correct you, you have the right to your beliefs, but you should not put others down for what they do.

Just watch me.

Just watch me.

correct a freedom you enjoy given to you by the blood, sweat , and tears of those better then yourself. Because they were willing to do more then just talk and belittle others.

correct a freedom you enjoy given to you by the blood, sweat , and tears of those better then yourself. Because they were willing to do more then just talk and belittle others.

*Sigh*

I am getting so incredibly tired of having to underscore each and every damn thing I say around here:

And unless your not a citizen of the US your correct, but if you are a citizen you have had those hillbillies die for everything you enjoy today starting during the revolution and leading up to those who serve today

Then colour me correct, dear.

That make it any more crystal-clear for you, or do you need it in semaphore as well? Morse? Sign language? Smoke signals?

And drop the 'blood, sweat and tears' business. Take a shower, for crying out loud - that rhetoric smells like a horse. And I don't want my carpets stained, either.

*Sigh*

I am getting so incredibly tired of having to underscore each and every damn thing I say around here:





That make it any more crystal-clear for you, or do you need it in semaphore as well? Morse? Sign language? Smoke signals?

And drop the 'blood, sweat and tears' business. Take a shower, for crying out loud - that rhetoric smells like a horse. And I don't want my carpets stained, either.

Sorry I apoligize when I am wrong, the negative numbers in the temps outside are slowing by brain functions.

actually here is the full text of the 6th article

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

And no where in there does it say a state can not leave the Union.

Just because you ctrl-f'ed "secession" and it didn't come up with anything, doesn't mean its not there.
It says state governments cannot defy the national government. Secession is pretty much the ultimate ultimate act of defiance. Ergo, yes, it says that a state cannot leave the Union.

Just because you ctrl-f'ed "secession" and it didn't come up with anything, doesn't mean its not there.
It says state governments cannot defy the national government. Secession is pretty much the ultimate ultimate act of defiance. Ergo, yes, it says that a state cannot leave the Union.

No it does not. you can't read into it what is not there. The founding fathers never set it up to stop anyone from leaving who did not want to be there. They were fighting against tyranny not creating it. SO the states do have the right to choose to belong or not, it is not a club once joined that you can not leave.

As long as they don't fly it above an American flag I don't see a problem with it.

I never said there is a comparison between the KKK and the Empire. My point is if people consider the Confederate flag a symbol of racism do those same people consider the Union Jack a symbol of racism. If not, why not?

Probably because Britain practiced milder forms of racism. For example, Wogs, not allowing Hindu in special clubs, etc.

The South had full blown discrimination after the war. For example, seperate bathrooms, drinking fountains, etc.

Britain didn't have a group like the KKK.

Britain practiced slavery and then openly made efforts to end it later on. The very thing why the South was doomed to failure was the fact they supported slavery. Great Britain would not formally help them.

It also doesn't help the fact that there is the effort to declare racism was not an issue of the civil war. Nor does it help when there is effort to redefine Nathanial Bedford Forest as the supreme patriot rather then the racist he was. I have read a few attempts at this but the fact remains he was one and it's documented that one of his officers wrote to Lee and demanded a transfer after witnessing NBF execute a free black man that he knew. Reason: he was a traitorous slave.

Time will be the biggest healer as it is with most things.

As long as they don't fly it above an American flag I don't see a problem with it.

Is that the same for the Nazi flag?

Is that the same for the Nazi flag?

Hardly something I'd want the American flag to be associated with, certainly. It also doesn't really make any sense to have the rebel flag along with American one. Bit of a contradiction there as well, I'd say.

How many whites served in the Confederate armed forces?

Around ten million or so, IIRC.

Around ten million or so, IIRC.

......That'd be more than the entire population of the South combined :eek:

......That'd be more than the entire population of the South combined :eek:

Ah, going from memory. The Army proper was 500,000 to 1,500,000, while the entire military was maybe 100,000 or so men larger. Personally, I'd go with the larger value, due to the fact that 250,000 of them died.

Anyways, it was huge.

Plus, not a single black man ever served in combat for the CSA, as far as I can find. A small handful of slaves were trained for around a month, but the war ended before they saw active duty.

This just reminded me of a story.

I see this girl witch a Confederate flag on her cell phone, and I ask her,

"Why do you have the Confederate flag on your phone?"

"I thought it was the British flag."

This just reminded me of a story.

I see this girl witch a Confederate flag on her cell phone, and I ask her,

"Why do you have the Confederate flag on your phone?"

"I thought it was the British flag."

ROFL. How the hell did those two got switched......

But then, I once mistook the Maori flag for the English flag...... :p

......That'd be more than the entire population of the South combined :eek:

Combined with what?

Ah, going from memory. The Army proper was 500,000 to 1,500,000, while the entire military was maybe 100,000 or so men larger. Personally, I'd go with the larger value, due to the fact that 250,000 of them died.

Anyways, it was huge.

Plus, not a single black man ever served in combat for the CSA, as far as I can find. A small handful of slaves were trained for around a month, but the war ended before they saw active duty.

Actually some saw some defense skirmishes.

http://www.civilwarhistory.com/slavetrade/blacksoldiersCSA.htm

But I think you are right in that they were not involved on the level of the 54th Mass.

Combined with what?

Err... I think I either meant black and white population combined, or all Southern states combined :p

I have also heard it called "The War of Northern Aggression" and "The Late Great Unpleasantness" but outside of the South it's definitely called the Civil War.


My American History professor calls it the War Between the States.

And he's not in the US South.

My American History professor calls it the War Between the States.

And he's not in the US South.

Does your text use that phase?

My American History professor calls it the War Between the States.

And he's not in the US South.

then he is either a racist or incredibly naive

I just think it's stupid. Case in point:

http://www.idrewthis.org/comics/idt20041028southernman.gif
Please, the South was fighting for good ol' American values.

What do the people of NS think of allowing Confederate flags to be flown? Is it just a tribute to history, or outright racist? I find it quite offensive, but for the sake of arguement, if no one comes foward to defend it, I will not mind playing the role of devils advocate.

Who gives a damn about it?

Does your text use that phase?

What text? :o

Weren't we talking about Aussie Day people toting flags being a non-"violation" of freedom of speech a couple of weeks ago?

So why is it that, because it is associated with segregation, its a violation of the freedom of speech?

I just think it's stupid.

Yes, it's a common reaction to Idrewthis.org. :)

What do the people of NS think of allowing Confederate flags to be flown? Is it just a tribute to history, or outright racist? I find it quite offensive, but for the sake of arguement, if no one comes foward to defend it, I will not mind playing the role of devils advocate.

Oh please don't, I hate when people do that. Fucking annoying.

As for what I think of the flag in question? Well, I usually refer to it as the traitor's flag.

Do I think it should be illegal to fly it? Of course not, that's free speech. But then again so is the Nazi party flag.

Is that the same for the Nazi flag?

:rolleyes:

then he is either a racist or incredibly naive

How so? It was a war between the states.

meh. Fly any flag you want, it's all in free speech. As long as you don't trample on other people's rights, you have your right of free speech.

Wear that Nazi thing on your arm is fine with me. Brandish a knife and threaten to kill a Jew while wearing that isn't.

We all have different opinions, some more to the extreme. Preventing a person's expression of his/her belief just because the majority deems it unacceptable is tyranny of the majority, not a democracy.

meh. Fly any flag you want, it's all in free speech. As long as you don't trample on other people's rights, you have your right of free speech.

Wear that Nazi thing on your arm is fine with me. Brandish a knife and threaten to kill a Jew while wearing that isn't.

We all have different opinions, some more to the extreme. Preventing a person's expression of his/her belief just because the majority deems it unacceptable is tyranny of the majority, not a democracy.

Give that man his Internet.