NationStates Jolt Archive

gender refers to the sexual distinction between male and female.

Yea....no.

Since you are so clearly unwilling to go elsewhere and learn the correct definitions, let me fill you in:

Sex: physical characteristics of a male or female body, generally classed as primary (vagina/penis) and secondary (breasts/deep voice/body hair) characteristics.

Gender: a psychological state, how an individual sees themselves and interacts with the world around in accordance with certain societal norms.

More or less.

I know that I, for one, am strongly inclined to take the word of individuals who self-identify as magical fairies.

Must be the third gender.

Nope. Gender is a cultural construction, varying from culture to culture. Some cultures view as many as a dozen or so genders, where as only a few view two genders.

For instance, various native American groups have completely different Genders for "Man", "Homosexual Man", "Man who dresses like women, but is heterosexual", etc and so forth. They are seen as completely and totally seperate genders, and not simply as extensions of "man"(The only way to explain them in Western cultural terms is to use treat it as such).

So, really, you willing to admit you don't know what you are talking about yet?

since i do live in a western culture, i tend to lean toward the two gender system.

Must be the third gender.

must be.

websters isn't reputable?

No, you aren't.

Also, dictionary's tend to... not use some terms correctly. They give the precise definition of what it used to mean, however, they do not give how they are used to today. Gender=/sex. You learn this in pretty much any anthropology course.

whats the difference then?

Between transsexualism and XX Male Syndrome?

You haven't picked it up yet?

Transsexualism: Where an individual identifies as a member of the gender that is usually associated with the opposite sex, for whatever reason, and wishes to 'fix' their body to bring it into line with their mind

XX Male Syndrome: Normal males in every way, born with a penis, testicles etc., who identify as male, but discover later in life that for whatever reason they have XX chromosones.


Can you grasp the difference, or will you dismiss it as a theory and blindly throw around your own "theories" which have no basis at all in reality?

gender is determined by chromosomes, and as i stated mine are xy.

Sex is determined by chromosones.

Gender is a social construct.

Now we understand where you have gone so terribly wrong. How did this slip by us?

since i do live in a western culture, i tend to lean toward the two gender system.

EXACTLY! You see the point? Gender is entirely cultural! Your views of gender are simply a construction of the society which you grew up in. HOWEVER, for people whom the two-gender system do not apply to, there is no way to fit in, and they will constantly not only feel like outsiders, but be treated as such. Thus, the only way to feel like they belong in society is to change their appearance!

Bloody hell, did I have a breakthrough?

since i do live in a western culture, i tend to lean toward the two gender system.

Which still works just fine. There are two genders...male and female. There are various biological sexes, generally, male, female or intersexed, with some other variations tossed in for fun.

Sex is determined by chromosones.

Gender is a social construct.

Now we understand where you have gone so terribly wrong. How did this slip by us?

It's the western idea of of two genders, and how they relate to sex, methinks. Easy to confuse the two for most folks.

Ho-well.

Yeah, I'm all excited:) She'll be staying with me for a while.

Ah cool, you can teach her all you know :)

websters isn't reputable?

Err....
Gender: "2 a : SEX <the feminine gender> b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex" (how i see it-so if someone thinks and acts like a female, and accepts all of the traits associated with being female as defined by their culture, they are of the female gender)
Sex: "1 : either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures" (Someone is of the female sex if they have the organs and structures of a female)

quotes from websters.

So as I see it, the OP was a case of someone of the female gender who wished to fix their sex to match their gender.

well im tired of this. obviously, there are far to many people who dissagree with me. i can't change your mind, you can't change mine. i believe that i am right. you all believe that i'm not. there is no sense in arguing over this any longer.i guess old conservatives just don't fit in any longer.

Let them do whatever the heck they want, I say. Just don't have the taxpayers pay for such elective surgery.

I'm fully supportive of the national healthcare net, but for utility's sake it has to be limited to necessary procedures, and probably reconstructive surgery too.

But that's the only issue here I see. The parents and the girl agreed this was best, and it was essentially harmless. Who are we to stop them?

well im tired of this. obviously, there are far to many people who dissagree with me. i can't change your mind, you can't change mine. i believe that i am right. you all believe that i'm not. there is no sense in arguing over this any longer.i guess old conservatives just don't fit in any longer.

Damnit, right when I pop in your leaving. :(

Ah cool, you can teach her all you know :)

Not sure she wants to be TOTALLY corrupted :D

well im tired of this. obviously, there are far to many people who dissagree with me. i can't change your mind, you can't change mine. i believe that i am right. you all believe that i'm not. there is no sense in arguing over this any longer.i guess old conservatives just don't fit in any longer.

Wrong. Old conservatives are just fine.

Old conservatives who don't argue using sound logic or reason, and have proven themselves lacking the knowledge to debate what they are debating, however, don't really fit in(This goes for pretty much anyone).

well im tired of this. obviously, there are far to many people who dissagree with me. i can't change your mind, you can't change mine. i believe that i am right. you all believe that i'm not. there is no sense in arguing over this any longer.i guess old conservatives just don't fit in any longer.

Awwwww poor you. Totally unable to back up your 'belief', and blindly ignoring the facts presented to you which support our position. Demands, horribly unfair demands made of you to actually review the evidence rather than stubbornly declaring 'I'm as right as you are because I believe it to be so'.

Conservative or not, what doesn't fit in here are those who can't manage to debate themselves out of a wet paper bag.

At least you realise that you don't know much about it and don't try to impose ill-informed ideas upon others...instead you're doing the right thing, which isn't a surprise from what I've read of you on this forum, which is a very nice change from the norm :)

so far I have figured out

him feeling like he is a girl -----> does not affect me
his parents telling him he is bad -----> affects him severely

so, he can come live here, we will let him figure it out, no pressure, lots of counseling from people who know about this stuff more than I do.

So as I see it, the OP was a case of someone of the female gender who wished to fix their sex to match their gender.
In my experience, that is what most transsexuals are trying to do: make their sex match their gender.

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I absolutely believe it is an individual's personal choice. I do not in any way support banning sex-change or sexual reassignment treatments/procedures. I certainly believe it is possible for a person to have "male" gender while having a physiologically female body, since I am such a person.

On the other hand, I believe gender is a construct. "Maleness" or "femaleness" in the sense of gender are defined by people, not by biology. I don't see any reason why a person can't be "male" while having a female body, if that's how they want to roll. I am such a person. My personality and feelings related to my gender conform most closely to what my culture defines as "man," though my body is (and always has been) female.

For a long while I felt like I was in the wrong body. I was sure that I was supposed to be a boy, yet I wasn't. Over many years, I came to realize that the "maleness" that I felt in regard to my gender did not require me to have a male body. What was stopping me was knowing that my society is unaccepting, and even cruel, toward women who 'act like men.' I was angry and afraid because of this.

It wasn't fair that being in a girl's body meant that I wasn't allowed to act the way I was comfortable. It wasn't fair that being in a girl's body meant that everybody was constantly trying to force me to act like a girl, in accordance with THEIR image of what "female" must be.

And that's why I wanted a different body. In a boy's body, I would be allowed to be the person I really am, and nobody would give me shit about it. A boy's body seemed "right" to me, because a boy's body meant being able to be who I really was all the time.

It took me a long time, but I eventually got to a point where I realized that society can go fuck itself. I decided that there is no reason why I shouldn't get to be whatever gender I want, regardless of my body, and to hell with everybody else's expectations.

That's why I have mixed feelings about transsexuality. I think it really sucks that people think they have to have a male body to be male, and a female body to be female. Hell, I think it sucks that people believe in binary gender in the first place!




And I will now pass out cookies to anybody who actually managed to read through that whole bloody mess of a post. :D

And I will now pass out cookies to anybody who actually managed to read through that whole bloody mess of a post. :D

I read it, I had to cause you quoted me. *nods* And my response is... that... it is a hard decision to make... and that... society sucks... at least in some ways... err... iono. Sigh...



Can I still have a cookie?

Edit: also, i thought it was very well written and brought up very good points. *really wants a cookie*

I'm sad that I missed the both of the huge rants gone on, but I suppose I can just return myself to the original arguments at hand.


So, what do you think?

Should a child that young have been allowed to do this?

Should s/he have been allowed to delay puberty, but not to take hormones?

Should psychiatrists have treated her in another way, refusing transition unyil she was older?

More generally, how do you feel about transsexuals, male to female or female to male? Is the idea an abomination, or should transsexuals be allowed to pursue what they think is right?

Yes, no and no to simply answer the first three questions.

I think what a lot of people have missed in arguing this is that Kim has not yet undergone any reconstructive surgery. Instead, she is merely having her male puberty blocked. IF (as unlikely as it is) she choses to reconsider and no longer wishes to be female, she can be given hormones to jumpstart a male puberty, albeit a bit late. Not that I think she should but the option IS there until she does undergo surgery.

I think what she, her parents and her doctors decided to do was right. Quite simply, she thought and acted as a female. There is no reason she should not have a body to match.

I think that transsexuals are perfectly within their rights to have surgery performed if that is their choice. I even support their right to be supported by insurance payments if psychologists have determined that surgery is necessary to thei mental health. I would not force such a clause into any insurance offers, but if it's there then there's no reason it should not be used.

I do think that anyone who IS transsexual should inform any sexual partners of that fact, simply because it is something that makes so many people uncomfortable. Really, it's just making sure that you're with someone who can accept you for who you are.

*snip*

I wholeheartedly agree.
Society seems altogether harsh on those that do not fit into a social "norm." The reason transgenderism can lead to psychological problems is that it is frowned upon, and causes the person to feel isolated and different from everyone else.
I also agree that "maleness" and "femaleness" are constructs of society and irrelevant to biological gender.

What kind of cookies ya got?

In my experience, that is what most transsexuals are trying to do: make their sex match their gender.

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I absolutely believe it is an individual's personal choice. I do not in any way support banning sex-change or sexual reassignment treatments/procedures. I certainly believe it is possible for a person to have "male" gender while having a physiologically female body, since I am such a person.

On the other hand, I believe gender is a construct. "Maleness" or "femaleness" in the sense of gender are defined by people, not by biology. I don't see any reason why a person can't be "male" while having a female body, if that's how they want to roll. I am such a person. My personality and feelings related to my gender conform most closely to what my culture defines as "man," though my body is (and always has been) female.

For a long while I felt like I was in the wrong body. I was sure that I was supposed to be a boy, yet I wasn't. Over many years, I came to realize that the "maleness" that I felt in regard to my gender did not require me to have a male body. What was stopping me was knowing that my society is unaccepting, and even cruel, toward women who 'act like men.' I was angry and afraid because of this.

It wasn't fair that being in a girl's body meant that I wasn't allowed to act the way I was comfortable. It wasn't fair that being in a girl's body meant that everybody was constantly trying to force me to act like a girl, in accordance with THEIR image of what "female" must be.

And that's why I wanted a different body. In a boy's body, I would be allowed to be the person I really am, and nobody would give me shit about it. A boy's body seemed "right" to me, because a boy's body meant being able to be who I really was all the time.

It took me a long time, but I eventually got to a point where I realized that society can go fuck itself. I decided that there is no reason why I shouldn't get to be whatever gender I want, regardless of my body, and to hell with everybody else's expectations.

That's why I have mixed feelings about transsexuality. I think it really sucks that people think they have to have a male body to be male, and a female body to be female. Hell, I think it sucks that people believe in binary gender in the first place!




And I will now pass out cookies to anybody who actually managed to read through that whole bloody mess of a post. :D

Hmm, it's not so simple, the OP-link proves it - obviously, this girl couldn't possibly have realised society tries to enforce "gender roles" and still felt that she had the wrong body, and needed to fix it - And for someone to actually be accepted for surgery, they need to live in that role for at least 2 years. Clearly, if the physical change was not a core of their transgendered nature, they wouldn't have felt they needed surgery. The bodily change is pretty drastic, and whilst not every transgendered person will want it *for example, I'm questioning, but mainly still wanting sex reassignment surgery*, it's a psychological need on its own. Indeed, this would explain transwomen who still take on a more male gender role.

In my experience, that is what most transsexuals are trying to do: make their sex match their gender.

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I absolutely believe it is an individual's personal choice. I do not in any way support banning sex-change or sexual reassignment treatments/procedures. I certainly believe it is possible for a person to have "male" gender while having a physiologically female body, since I am such a person.

On the other hand, I believe gender is a construct. "Maleness" or "femaleness" in the sense of gender are defined by people, not by biology. I don't see any reason why a person can't be "male" while having a female body, if that's how they want to roll. I am such a person. My personality and feelings related to my gender conform most closely to what my culture defines as "man," though my body is (and always has been) female.

For a long while I felt like I was in the wrong body. I was sure that I was supposed to be a boy, yet I wasn't. Over many years, I came to realize that the "maleness" that I felt in regard to my gender did not require me to have a male body. What was stopping me was knowing that my society is unaccepting, and even cruel, toward women who 'act like men.' I was angry and afraid because of this.

It wasn't fair that being in a girl's body meant that I wasn't allowed to act the way I was comfortable. It wasn't fair that being in a girl's body meant that everybody was constantly trying to force me to act like a girl, in accordance with THEIR image of what "female" must be.

And that's why I wanted a different body. In a boy's body, I would be allowed to be the person I really am, and nobody would give me shit about it. A boy's body seemed "right" to me, because a boy's body meant being able to be who I really was all the time.

It took me a long time, but I eventually got to a point where I realized that society can go fuck itself. I decided that there is no reason why I shouldn't get to be whatever gender I want, regardless of my body, and to hell with everybody else's expectations.

That's why I have mixed feelings about transsexuality. I think it really sucks that people think they have to have a male body to be male, and a female body to be female. Hell, I think it sucks that people believe in binary gender in the first place!




And I will now pass out cookies to anybody who actually managed to read through that whole bloody mess of a post. :D
you have a supersecret TG in response to something.....or whatever.

I request chocolate instead of cookies.

Hmm, it's not so simple, the OP-link proves it - obviously, this girl couldn't possibly have realised society tries to enforce "gender roles" and still felt that she had the wrong body, and needed to fix it -

I felt I had the wrong body from about the time I was 4. At least, that's the earliest I can remember feeling that way. At age 12, if you looked at a photo of me you would probably assume I was a boy, since I did everything in my power to "pass" as one. Unfortunately for me, I was an early bloomer and started puberty at age 11. That made it somewhat more difficult to be a boy. :P


And for someone to actually be accepted for surgery, they need to live in that role for at least 2 years. Clearly, if the physical change was not a core of their transgendered nature, they wouldn't have felt they needed surgery. The bodily change is pretty drastic, and whilst not every transgendered person will want it *for example, I'm questioning, but mainly still wanting sex reassignment surgery*, it's a psychological need on its own. Indeed, this would explain transwomen who still take on a more male gender role.
Yeah, it's a pretty complicated situation. There's gender, gender roles, sex, sexual orientation, etc etc etc, and it all ends up being an ugly muddle of one's own identity and feelings mixed in with social and cultural expectations.

*A rain of cookies pours over the thread*

:D

EDIT: And special Smunkee chocolates.

*A rain of cookies pours over the thread*

:D

*Dies of overeating*

In my experience, that is what most transsexuals are trying to do: make their sex match their gender.

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I absolutely believe it is an individual's personal choice. I do not in any way support banning sex-change or sexual reassignment treatments/procedures. I certainly believe it is possible for a person to have "male" gender while having a physiologically female body, since I am such a person.

On the other hand, I believe gender is a construct. "Maleness" or "femaleness" in the sense of gender are defined by people, not by biology. I don't see any reason why a person can't be "male" while having a female body, if that's how they want to roll. I am such a person. My personality and feelings related to my gender conform most closely to what my culture defines as "man," though my body is (and always has been) female.

For a long while I felt like I was in the wrong body. I was sure that I was supposed to be a boy, yet I wasn't. Over many years, I came to realize that the "maleness" that I felt in regard to my gender did not require me to have a male body. What was stopping me was knowing that my society is unaccepting, and even cruel, toward women who 'act like men.' I was angry and afraid because of this.

It wasn't fair that being in a girl's body meant that I wasn't allowed to act the way I was comfortable. It wasn't fair that being in a girl's body meant that everybody was constantly trying to force me to act like a girl, in accordance with THEIR image of what "female" must be.

And that's why I wanted a different body. In a boy's body, I would be allowed to be the person I really am, and nobody would give me shit about it. A boy's body seemed "right" to me, because a boy's body meant being able to be who I really was all the time.

It took me a long time, but I eventually got to a point where I realized that society can go fuck itself. I decided that there is no reason why I shouldn't get to be whatever gender I want, regardless of my body, and to hell with everybody else's expectations.

That's why I have mixed feelings about transsexuality. I think it really sucks that people think they have to have a male body to be male, and a female body to be female. Hell, I think it sucks that people believe in binary gender in the first place!




And I will now pass out cookies to anybody who actually managed to read through that whole bloody mess of a post. :D

Yeah, but you've just demonstrated that you aren't transsexual; you just didn't behave in a way society expected, and had trouble coming to terms with that, because what society tried to impose on you wasn't how you acted.

Whereas a transsexual, no matter how they try to convey to you what they feel, is probably transitioning not because they want to be able to act in a certain way and think they need a certain body to be able to, but because they want to get their body to what their brain is convinced it should be. The fact that a lot of transsexuals have a hatred of their sexual organs is a fairly good sign of this. As is the fact that transsexuality occurs in societies where gender isn't so rigidly binary as in western culture.

well im tired of this. obviously, there are far to many people who dissagree with me. i can't change your mind, you can't change mine. i believe that i am right. you all believe that i'm not. there is no sense in arguing over this any longer.i guess old conservatives just don't fit in any longer.

"Old conservatives" fit in just fine.

"Old conservatives" who refuse to listen to reason and medical evidence, continue to spout incorrect rubbish, and insist upon ignoring facts, however, are not welcome.

Not sure she wants to be TOTALLY corrupted :D

Only one way to find out :D

Yeah, but you've just demonstrated that you aren't transsexual; you just didn't behave in a way society expected, and had trouble coming to terms with that, because what society tried to impose on you wasn't how you acted.

Whereas a transsexual, no matter how they try to convey to you what they feel, is probably transitioning not because they want to be able to act in a certain way and think they need a certain body to be able to, but because they want to get their body to what their brain is convinced it should be. The fact that a lot of transsexuals have a hatred of their sexual organs is a fairly good sign of this. As is the fact that transsexuality occurs in societies where gender isn't so rigidly binary as in western culture.Exactly. My sister is the last person to give in to societal norms, but this isn't just about gender as a construct, and that construct being too stifling. For a while, that's what she thought it was, but it wasn't enough to reject that and just live as she pleased. She is slowly coming to the realisation that even if she were around only people who rejected gender constructs, she would STILL need the physical change too.

I personally have no reservations, none at all about this issue. If someone in Bottle's position can find peace short of a physcial alteration, then fine. If someone can't, also fine.

Excuse me, some of the "experts" recommended a closed psychiatric ward? S/he is a transvestite, not a psychopath.

Excuse me, some of the "experts" recommended a closed psychiatric ward? S/he is a transvestite, not a psychopath.

And she's a transsexual not a transvestite.

And she's a transsexual not a transvestite.

And just like teh gays, we can cure 'em!

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/01_wk4/timkim280107_228x323.jpg

Major, major apologies for the Daily Mail link.... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=432094&in_page_id=1770)

So, what do you think?

Should a child that young have been allowed to do this?

Should s/he have been allowed to delay puberty, but not to take hormones?

Should psychiatrists have treated her in another way, refusing transition unyil she was older?

More generally, how do you feel about transsexuals, male to female or female to male? Is the idea an abomination, or should transsexuals be allowed to pursue what they think is right?

Well, it's their call. But I think...big what the fuck.

Yeah, but you've just demonstrated that you aren't transsexual; you just didn't behave in a way society expected, and had trouble coming to terms with that, because what society tried to impose on you wasn't how you acted.

From my discussions with transsexual friends, I believe many of my feelings about my sex were typical of transsexual individuals. Not all, of course, but certainly not completely off the map.


Whereas a transsexual, no matter how they try to convey to you what they feel, is probably transitioning not because they want to be able to act in a certain way and think they need a certain body to be able to, but because they want to get their body to what their brain is convinced it should be.

My brain was convinced that my body was supposed to be male. Hitting puberty was a shock because I had honestly believed that at puberty my body would know to mature the "right" way and make me male. When I sprouted boobs, I was disgusted and somewhat scared.


The fact that a lot of transsexuals have a hatred of their sexual organs is a fairly good sign of this.

I have never hated my genitals, though I felt that I had the wrong type for many years. I absolutely hated my breasts and secondary sex characteristics, because they made my body look "wrong." I was supposed to be a boy.


As is the fact that transsexuality occurs in societies where gender isn't so rigidly binary as in western culture.
Those are the cases I find particularly interesting! And are also why I do not try to use my personal experience as a catch-all to define all transsexuality.

Well, it's their call. But I think...big what the fuck.

Yeah, I have that same reaction each time I lose a friend to religion. :(

From my discussions with transsexual friends, I believe many of my feelings about my sex were typical of transsexual individuals. Not all, of course, but certainly not completely off the map.

From what you put it seems so, anyway, but without the final...whatever it is. I don't know what it is, but something.


My brain was convinced that my body was supposed to be male. Hitting puberty was a shock because I had honestly believed that at puberty my body would know to mature the "right" way and make me male. When I sprouted boobs, I was disgusted and somewhat scared.

Yeah, I can imagine.

I have never hated my genitals, though I felt that I had the wrong type for many years. I absolutely hated my breasts and secondary sex characteristics, because they made my body look "wrong." I was supposed to be a boy.

Well, for you, from what I've read, the feelings faded over time and you accepted yourself and how you could be in society, which is different for many transsexuals because it's not really a societal thing so much as a physical thing.

Actually, I don't know, I'm just trying to get an idea from what you've said. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong...

Those are the cases I find particularly interesting! And are also why I do not try to use my personal experience as a catch-all to define all transsexuality.

I see them as the most interesting way of seeing how connected transsexuality is to culture and society. I take the view that, obviously, it has something to do, but not as much as the person's perception of what their body should be with the societal role being something of an 'added bonus'. But that's just for me.

Nadkor, I have the same nagging feeling of 'that isn't it' as you here...to try and narrow it down, could you answer a question?

Do you think that someone who, even if at one point they seriously consider physical alteration, stops having that need, is a transsexual, or something else?

I don't mean...thinks about it, then says no, then thinks some more, but just can't bring themselves to do it...still wanting to underneath it all. I'm talking about someone who wanted to at one point, but now is fine with their body as it is.

From what you put it seems so, anyway, but without the final...whatever it is. I don't know what it is, but something.

Indeed. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I became gradually accustomed to my own body, and more comfortable with my physical sex, while other people don't.


Yeah, I can imagine.

This was even more confusing considering that I am also attracted to women. So I was discovering that I found breasts sexually appealing at the same time I was feeling horrified and disgusted about my own breasts.


Well, for you, from what I've read, the feelings faded over time and you accepted yourself and how you could be in society, which is different for many transsexuals because it's not really a societal thing so much as a physical thing.

Yes and no. The strong feelings of disgust about my body have, thankfully, faded out. My body is far from perfect, but I am quite content with it now.

However, I still feel that my body is not "right" in many ways. I am still surprised sometimes when I see my own reflection, because the "me" that I see in my own head is a boy. Seeing my female shape is a bit off-putting sometimes. Particularly when I brush my teeth in the morning, since I'm still sleep-muddled. I've sometimes whipped around to try to figure out who the hell that woman is behind me. :D


Actually, I don't know, I'm just trying to get an idea from what you've said. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong...

I won't pretend to have sorted out all of it myself. For now, I am content to be slightly confused. Or, as my mom puts in, in "gender limbo." I identify myself as a woman because I know it is what most people around me will be comfortable with and will be able to understand, but to myself I will probably always be "gender: other."


I see them as the most interesting way of seeing how connected transsexuality is to culture and society. I take the view that, obviously, it has something to do, but not as much as the person's perception of what their body should be with the societal role being something of an 'added bonus'. But that's just for me.
Quite.

Something I remember very vividly was a case study I read during a psych course in college. It was about a young child who was sexually ambiguous at birth. The doctors and parents decided to make the child a girl, and shaped its genitals accordingly while it was still a baby. The parents were told to rear the child as a girl. This meant making the child wear dresses and behave in a typically "feminine" manner.

The child rebelled at this. Despite all their parents' efforts, the child still wanted to do "boy things." Instead of dolls, the child wanted toy cars and trucks. Instead of liking to sit quietly and behave like a lady, the child wanted to run and be loud and fight with other kids. The child expressed feelings of being a boy, not a girl, but was strongly discouraged from having such thoughts.

Eventually the child was told the truth, I believe around the time puberty was going to begin. It was at this point that the child concluded that he was really supposed to be a boy, and his parents picked the wrong gender for him.

This case study was presented to us as an example of how gender is innate, since all the parents' best efforts couldn't make a boy into a girl. But I read it completely the other way.

Plenty of girl children don't like dresses, or dolls, or playing quietly and acting like a lady! If you tell a child that a girl must do those things, while a boy gets to do other things, then it makes perfect sense for the child to conclude that being a boy is what they want. Trying to force a child to be something they are not is a very good way to ensure that they will rebel against you and the whole system you set up.

To me, the whole problem was the idea that "girls are X" while "boys are Y." Any girl who ISN'T X is going to start wondering if maybe she's really not a girl, and same for the boys who aren't Y.

It honestly disgusts me the way people gender their children at such a young age. Kids are still in diapers, but they're already being color-coded and told that girls are a certain way while boys are another. Pity the poor children who don't happen to match up to these expectations.

I've yet to have anybody provide me with a single conclusive trait that a woman MUST HAVE in order to be a woman, or a single conclusive trait that man MUST HAVE to be a man. Chromosomes don't work. Genitals don't work. Secondary sex traits don't work. Personalities don't work. So if we can't even conclusively define what is and is not a woman, then what does it actually mean when a person "switches sex" or "changes gender"?

This truly is a complicated topic. I had the opposite experience- no problems at all then...*bang* puberty and a reaction of "wtf?", intensifying throughout puberty up until now (19) when being a guy really freaks me out. I sense this is not the usual order of things, but then I've always been a bit of a contrary eejit:p .

Nadkor, I have the same nagging feeling of 'that isn't it' as you here...to try and narrow it down, could you answer a question?

Do you think that someone who, even if at one point they seriously consider physical alteration, stops having that need, is a transsexual, or something else?

I don't mean...thinks about it, then says no, then thinks some more, but just can't bring themselves to do it...still wanting to underneath it all. I'm talking about someone who wanted to at one point, but now is fine with their body as it is.

Transgendered, definitely, but I don't know...not transsexual anymore I don't think. Someone who was having trouble reconciling how they acted and felt with what they thought they were meant to act like in society but has come to terms with it and decided they don't need to change their body in order to be able to act as they wish? Maybe....I don't know...I guess I just see transsexuality as something where an individual has a problem with their body because it wasn't what they thought they were meant to have, primarily, rather than somebody who had a problem with their body because society doesn't allow somebody with that body to act they way the person wants to.

Er, maybe.

Difficult question. I had a better answer, with an actual conclusion, but the more I thought about it the more difficult it got to actually write an answer out, so I deleted it and typed that instead. What about you? What do you think?

Interesting question, though.

This truly is a complicated topic. I had the opposite experience- no problems at all then...*bang* puberty and a reaction of "wtf?", intensifying throughout puberty up until now (19) when being a guy really freaks me out. I sense this is not the usual order of things, but then I've always been a bit of a contrary eejit:p .

That's roughly the same as me, pretty much... I mean, I decided to do something about being trans when I turned 18, but I only really got it at about age 12 - there were one or two incidents in my further childhood, but I never really felt "in the wrong body" til then.

Er, maybe.

Difficult question. I had a better answer, with an actual conclusion, but the more I thought about it the more difficult it got to actually write an answer out, so I deleted it and typed that instead. What about you? What do you think?

Interesting question, though.

Well, I kind of think of it this way. Some people really, truly are totally homosexual, or totally heterosexual. I don't understand it, and I suspect that most people are not totally at one end or the other, but I accept it is true. You can be 'mostly' gay or het, but I think that's different than the people out there who are ALL gay or ALL het.

So, I kind of consider that there are people who are transgendered, and fall into a wide range, and then there are people who are full on transsexual (pre-transsexual if they haven't actually had the physical change). I think full-on transsexuals are rarer than transgendered people. So someone who considers a physical change, but can live without it would not be transsexual, but transgendered.

Meh, that's what a few people I know have argued anyway, and I can see it.

That's roughly the same as me, pretty much... I mean, I decided to do something about being trans when I turned 18, but I only really got it at about age 12 - there were one or two incidents in my further childhood, but I never really felt "in the wrong body" til then.

That is interesting. Having had no problems at 12, I'd decided by 15/16 that something would have to be done (though I'm still postponing it and putting it off until 3 or 4 years later:rolleyes:). Anyway, its reassuring that someone else has followed a vaguely similar pattern. Was kinda worrying that the fact I didn't start having problems till later meant I was just making up or something!

Cool.

Well, at least if s/he gets the treatment early, they're be less unwanted development to reverse.

My general attitude to transsexuality is that I'm unsure whether treatment can be considered to truly make a male into a female (or vice versa), but the answer to that question doesn't change the fact that I think people should be allowed to do what they want with their own bodies.

Good for Germany and good for that girls parents for supporting her.

I don't see this is cosmetic surgery. I see it as a necessary medical procedure to make things right for the girl in a boys body.

There are lots of instances where very young children feel that they are a different gender than what their physical appearance suggests and naturally feel more comfortable in the opposite role.

:fluffle:

What I find more interesting than the "ah, but is a transsexual really a <whatever>" is the fact that it seems to assert gender roles, something normally done by less liberally-minded types. But maybe I'm just talking crap. :D

What I find more interesting than the "ah, but is a transsexual really a <whatever>" is the fact that it seems to assert gender roles, something normally done by less liberally-minded types. But maybe I'm just talking crap. :D

Not necessarily. Not all transsexuals conform to stereotypical gender roles even after reassignment.

Well, considering that "Kim" is happier now then when she was "Tim", I think that the reassignment was worth it. Transgendering is a tricky thing, and I'm glad that this case worked out well for those involved.

And she's a transsexual not a transvestite.

Actually, according to my friend, transvestite is BEFORE the operation, transexual is after. Since s/he hasn't had the full operation, s/he's a transvestite. I could be wrong, though.

Actually, according to my friend, transvestite is BEFORE the operation, transexual is after. Since s/he hasn't had the full operation, s/he's a transvestite. I could be wrong, though.

Yep. Transvestites do not want to be women. They were the clothes, either temporarily or full time, for a variety of reasons, but are, fundamentally, happy with their original gender.

A transsexual before the op is just a pre-op transsexual. it's a pretty minor and un-necessary distinction to make though.

it's a pretty minor and un-necessary distinction to make though.

Not for the person who lifts up the skirt and gets an unpleasant surprise! :D

Not for the person who lifts up the skirt and gets an unpleasant surprise! :D


anyone who lifts up mine will get several unpleasant surprises.... but they won't be conscious long enough for it to sink in :p

Well, except for the one person who does, but I don't think she gets surprised :fluffle:

Should have been thrown off a cliff with other mutants.

Indeed. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I became gradually accustomed to my own body, and more comfortable with my physical sex, while other people don't.

I suppose it's probably just 'one of those things'...

This was even more confusing considering that I am also attracted to women. So I was discovering that I found breasts sexually appealing at the same time I was feeling horrified and disgusted about my own breasts.

Yea, I can understand that

Yes and no. The strong feelings of disgust about my body have, thankfully, faded out. My body is far from perfect, but I am quite content with it now.

Then I guess you were one of the (relatively) lucky ones. A lot of people who feel the same are never lucky enough to be able to get over it.

However, I still feel that my body is not "right" in many ways. I am still surprised sometimes when I see my own reflection, because the "me" that I see in my own head is a boy. Seeing my female shape is a bit off-putting sometimes. Particularly when I brush my teeth in the morning, since I'm still sleep-muddled. I've sometimes whipped around to try to figure out who the hell that woman is behind me. :D

Well, maybe you'll never be completely over it, but it would sure beat fully fledged transsexuality.

I won't pretend to have sorted out all of it myself. For now, I am content to be slightly confused. Or, as my mom puts in, in "gender limbo." I identify myself as a woman because I know it is what most people around me will be comfortable with and will be able to understand, but to myself I will probably always be "gender: other."

As long as you're happy with it and you've reached something of an equilibrium, sort of, then that's great to hear.

Quite.

Something I remember very vividly was a case study I read during a psych course in college. It was about a young child who was sexually ambiguous at birth. The doctors and parents decided to make the child a girl, and shaped its genitals accordingly while it was still a baby. The parents were told to rear the child as a girl. This meant making the child wear dresses and behave in a typically "feminine" manner.

The child rebelled at this. Despite all their parents' efforts, the child still wanted to do "boy things." Instead of dolls, the child wanted toy cars and trucks. Instead of liking to sit quietly and behave like a lady, the child wanted to run and be loud and fight with other kids. The child expressed feelings of being a boy, not a girl, but was strongly discouraged from having such thoughts.

Eventually the child was told the truth, I believe around the time puberty was going to begin. It was at this point that the child concluded that he was really supposed to be a boy, and his parents picked the wrong gender for him.

This case study was presented to us as an example of how gender is innate, since all the parents' best efforts couldn't make a boy into a girl. But I read it completely the other way.

If it's the case I think you're talking about (and I'm pretty certain it is) then he did express an intense dislike of his female body. And, unhappily, committed suicide in 2004.

Plenty of girl children don't like dresses, or dolls, or playing quietly and acting like a lady! If you tell a child that a girl must do those things, while a boy gets to do other things, then it makes perfect sense for the child to conclude that being a boy is what they want. Trying to force a child to be something they are not is a very good way to ensure that they will rebel against you and the whole system you set up.

To me, the whole problem was the idea that "girls are X" while "boys are Y." Any girl who ISN'T X is going to start wondering if maybe she's really not a girl, and same for the boys who aren't Y.

It honestly disgusts me the way people gender their children at such a young age. Kids are still in diapers, but they're already being color-coded and told that girls are a certain way while boys are another. Pity the poor children who don't happen to match up to these expectations.

You can't say that fits with the case of David Reimer (the guy you were talking about before), because we don't know to what extent his parents pushed being a girl on him.

At the same time, I disagree with your general theory to a certain extent. Boys who are brought up boys and are vaguely happy with that role can be transsexual. Same with girls brought up as girls who are vaguely happy with that role can be transsexual. So that way I can't see it as something purely brought on by being tied to a gender role the person doesn't want to be in.

And the fact that it exists in cultures where things aren't enforced quite as strongly leads me away from the idea that it's a reaction against societal expectation. If there is a lower pressure to conform to one of two genders how can there be the same reaction?

And, just from personal experience I suppose, it can very much be only to do with how an individual thinks their body should be, as their mind instinctively percieve it should be.

I've yet to have anybody provide me with a single conclusive trait that a woman MUST HAVE in order to be a woman, or a single conclusive trait that man MUST HAVE to be a man. Chromosomes don't work. Genitals don't work. Secondary sex traits don't work. Personalities don't work. So if we can't even conclusively define what is and is not a woman, then what does it actually mean when a person "switches sex" or "changes gender"?

As far as I can see, to be a woman you should feel like you're a woman and to be a man you should feel like a man, regardless of how you act.

Actually, according to my friend, transvestite is BEFORE the operation, transexual is after. Since s/he hasn't had the full operation, s/he's a transvestite. I could be wrong, though.

Yea, you are :p

Transvestites are generally straight males who get a sexual kick out of dressing in 'female' clothes.

A transsexual before the operation is a pre-op transsexual. Somebody who identifies as a member of the opposite sex and actively intends to change their body to fit that.

Should have been thrown off a cliff with other mutants.

Nice.

Should have been thrown off a cliff with other mutants.

Careful. Advocating the death of human beings, a 'class of humans' actually that you've deemed mutants, is not okay here.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/01_wk4/timkim280107_228x323.jpg

Major, major apologies for the Daily Mail link.... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=432094&in_page_id=1770)

So, what do you think?

Should a child that young have been allowed to do this?

Should s/he have been allowed to delay puberty, but not to take hormones?

Should psychiatrists have treated her in another way, refusing transition unyil she was older?

More generally, how do you feel about transsexuals, male to female or female to male? Is the idea an abomination, or should transsexuals be allowed to pursue what they think is right?


I think it should be allowed because it makes the transition much easier then it is when the individual is older.

Careful. Advocating the death of human beings, a 'class of humans' actually that you've deemed mutants, is not okay here.

Hey, it's alright, if mutants get thrown off cliffs, so do trolls...

In that case, why should the public fund any psychocological or psychiatric treatment?

And, FYI, 'cross-dressing' is an entirely different thing to GID. So that wouldn't solve the problem at all.


I think it would be nice if Transgendered people could get it financed just like people can any other thing they wish to purchase.

I think it would be nice if Transgendered people could get it financed just like people can any other thing they wish to purchase.

Get it financed? So are you supporting public payment for it or not?

And what do you mean "purchase"? It's not as if a transsexual can walk into a shop and say "yes, I'll have that vagina and those breasts, please".

And what do you mean "purchase"? It's not as if a transsexual can walk into a shop and say "yes, I'll have that vagina and those breasts, please".


not yet!

Does the public pay for every little psychological problem someone has? Especially if it is in the sum of 18,000 Euros so someone can get their dick cut off? There are far worse problems that money could be spent on.


First of all it isn't cut off, secondly if you had been born transgendered you would know how wrong you are. Think about it, if you were to go to sleep tonight, and wake up in a body that is the opposite sex. How would you feel about it. Would you want to wait until you've had years to think about it, or would you want to be changed back to the sex that you KNOW you truely are. Further, should others have a say of rather or not you should be allowed to change back?

not yet!


I mean it cost money to have the operation, if you want it, you must pay for it ... ie ... purchase it.

Should have been thrown off a cliff with other mutants.

Are you being tongue in cheek? Please tell me you are...

Yea, you are :p

Transvestites are generally straight males who get a sexual kick out of dressing in 'female' clothes.

A transsexual before the operation is a pre-op transsexual. Somebody who identifies as a member of the opposite sex and actively intends to change their body to fit that.

My bad.

Get it financed? So are you supporting public payment for it or not?

And what do you mean "purchase"? It's not as if a transsexual can walk into a shop and say "yes, I'll have that vagina and those breasts, please".


I am transgendered and I do not expect anyone to pay for my surgery. I do expect to be allowed to pay for it myself. Some people don't think that we should even have the right to get it even if we pay for it. As I said I would like to be able to finance it if I can't afford to pay cash.

Should have been thrown off a cliff with other mutants.


You are welcome to try to throw me off of a cliff if you'd like, but don't be surprised if it doesn't workout the way you wish it too.

I mean it cost money to have the operation, if you want it, you must pay for it ... ie ... purchase it.

Where do you live?

5:55 pm est ... I must go pick up my roommate, I will come back on when I return.

Where do you live?

Columbus, Ohio USA

Columbus, Ohio USA

Well, there you go. It's a different system. We have the NHS which we pay for, so it's only reasonable to receive treatment on it; after all, that's its purpose.

I say good on her if she happy now that shes a young lady more then before when she was chap, She looks kind of pretty better than alot of old post ops

Should have been thrown off a cliff with other mutants.

Hate crime.

Hate crime.

Yes, good call.

Hate crime. Love legally sanctioned and approved activities.

Yes, good call.

Hate crime. Love legally sanctioned and approved activities.

Yes, plus this world needs more dickgirls.

EDIT: SORRY IF THIS IS AGAINST CoC.

Yes, plus this world needs more dickgirls.

EDIT: SORRY IF THIS IS AGAINST CoC.

CoC?

CoC?

Code of Conduct presumably.

CoC?

Code of Conduct. Rules, basically.

Code of Conduct. Rules, basically.

Oh, OK. Don't think it is, but then I've never read the rules so I'm really an authority on them...

So now European nations get to define what is civilized and what is not? And you say Americans are bigoted/nationalistic/whatever? In that case, fuck you, you piece of Eurotrash. I hope the US never meets your standards of civilized.

Warned for flaming.

She's so pretty!

She's very lucky to have such understanding parents. Some of the idiots in this thread would have her locked up in a mental hospital to satisfy their twisted sense of natural law.

a lot of kids get their sex chosen for them at birth because their genitals are not fully developed either way (sorry, can't find a source on this, wouldn't know how to search it). at least this kid got the chance to choose for herself.

This isn't true. The outer parts of it may not be developed but the inner part is.

She's very lucky to have such understanding parents. Some of the idiots in this thread would have her locked up in a mental hospital to satisfy their twisted sense of natural law.

Totally. And it's people like those in this thread who put off transsexuals from coming out, with potentially fatal consequences.

This isn't true. The outer parts of it may not be developed but the inner part is.

...


the wikipedia article on intersexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality#Biological_causes_of_intersexuality) has the statistics on this. it's estimated at between .1% of all live births and .02%. either way, no one on this board, statistically speaking, has NOT met someone who was surgically altered at birth to resemble one gender over another.

I wonder about my sister. Now to understand my skepticism you have to realize what an attention whore she is. She has a history of revealing shocking info to seem... more interesting. It wasn't her first "revelation" to family and friends. And she didn't decide she was uncomfortable with her gender until her late twenties. She never seemed to have a problem with her gender as a kid.

So? Problem with gender or more attention seeking?

I wonder about my sister. Now to understand my skepticism you have to realize what an attention whore she is. She has a history of revealing shocking info to seem... more interesting. It wasn't her first "revelation" to family and friends. And she didn't decide she was uncomfortable with her gender until her late twenties. She never seemed to have a problem with her gender as a kid.

So? Problem with gender or more attention seeking?

Not enough info to make a decision - but when I came out, people at first didn't believe me because I didn't act typically female - it's not proof that I'm not though.

I wonder about my sister. Now to understand my skepticism you have to realize what an attention whore she is. She has a history of revealing shocking info to seem... more interesting. It wasn't her first "revelation" to family and friends. And she didn't decide she was uncomfortable with her gender until her late twenties. She never seemed to have a problem with her gender as a kid.

So? Problem with gender or more attention seeking?

We'd need to know more than that, really. From what's there, though, it could quite possibly be that she had problems with her gender, but kept them well hidden for fear of being rejected, and has since got over them.

The bottom line is this ... If you have never lived through this then you don't get a vote. I have read the posts in this thread, and some of them make me sick. Many of us have been killed by people with similiar beliefs, even here in the United States. Just because you don't agree with what you call our lifestyle. Doesn't give anybody the right to take a life. Shame on you for saying so.

The bottom line is this ... If you have never lived through this then you don't get a vote.

What a spectacularly narrow-minded view to take. I've never lived through a war, does this mean I should have no opinion on war? I've never lived through a close friend/relative's suicide, does this mean I shouldn't have an opinion on suicide?

Just because somebody hasn't lived through something doesn't mean they can't have an opinion on it. Whether you like the opinion or not is, of course, a different matter.

I have read the posts in this thread, and some of them make me sick. Many of us have been killed by people with similiar beliefs, even here in the United States. Just because you don't agree with what you call our lifestyle. Doesn't give anybody the right to take a life. Shame on you for saying so.

I don't think people in this thread were advocating murder.

Well, whats done is done. Lets hope she has a good life.

Not enough info to make a decision - but when I came out, people at first didn't believe me because I didn't act typically female - it's not proof that I'm not though.She's never acted or dressed remotely masculine, but I realize this isn't the only criteria. She and I were always close and shared many sexual fantasies, and though we both had some fantasy where we were male she didn't seem to have a problem with being female. After she revealed her desire to be male she got married and dropped the idea for a few years. Though she did say originally that she's still prefer males even after the change.

Am I being insensitive? I've never said anything like I think she's full of shit, but I'm definitely taking this with a grain of salt.

An interesting issue. I would really doubt, however, that at 12, you have enough emotional maturity or accumulated life experience to be competent enough make a decision of that magnitude. Moreover, I would have a VERY LARGE problem with the procedure being done at tax-payers expense. That being said, I'm glad that all the main principal players in this drama seem to be happy with their decision. Particularly since my money was not involved.

Nothing surprises me anymore. Check, please.

An interesting issue. I would really doubt, however, that at 12, you have enough emotional maturity or accumulated life experience to be competent enough make a decision of that magnitude. Moreover, I would have a VERY LARGE problem with the procedure being done at tax-payers expense. That being said, I'm glad that all the main principal players in this drama seem to be happy with their decision. Particularly since my money was not involved.

Nothing surprises me anymore. Check, please.

*sigh* To repeat that again, the article is incorrect in claiming it's "taxpayer's money".
The German helath insurance system makes it obligatory for every citizen to have and pay for health insurance. There are public, semi-private and private insurances. Some of those insurances will cover a sex change treatment if advised by doctors (normally doctors in the employment of the insurance company itself), others will not. Most will decide on a case-by-case basis.
So, no, it's not the state paying, and it's not taxpayer's money. It's the insurance of the girl's parents.

And I think if a child began stating that she's a girl at the age of 2, which is approximately the age that most children become aware of their sex and gender, and keeps up that conviction for the next 10 years (which I don't think were easy years. The article says she had to change schools because of harassment) I think it is rather unlikely that the sentiment will change again.

An interesting issue. I would really doubt, however, that at 12, you have enough emotional maturity or accumulated life experience to be competent enough make a decision of that magnitude. Moreover, I would have a VERY LARGE problem with the procedure being done at tax-payers expense. That being said, I'm glad that all the main principal players in this drama seem to be happy with their decision. Particularly since my money was not involved.

Nothing surprises me anymore. Check, please.

Come on, magnitude? It's just stopping male puberty from setting in. She can still change her mind until the final step, to be performed in 4 years.....

Besides you won't object if the state pay for YOUR medical condition.

Did he ever receive comprehensive psychiatric treatment and therapy for this problem?

I would rather have this mental disorder treated by therapy and medication than waste the government's money on a surgery that he might end up regretting in the future.


If this kid's transsexuality is not a lifelong mental disorder, he's going to be completely screwed because this process is not reversible. Unlike therapy or local surgery, there really isn't a way to reverse or stop this change.

I'm sure someone has answered this one hundred times by now.
But seeing how She\he basicly had this since birth, the condition IS lifelong. For all intent and purposes the brain is STUCK on "Female" and it won't go back either. So not she will not regret it.

An interesting issue. I would really doubt, however, that at 12, you have enough emotional maturity or accumulated life experience to be competent enough make a decision of that magnitude.

That's why there are psychiatrists to decide whether or not to allow the transition to take place. And her parents. And the fact she has felt the same way for 10 years.

Moreover, I would have a VERY LARGE problem with the procedure being done at tax-payers expense.

That's OK then, because it wasn't.

I'm sure someone has answered this one hundred times by now.
But seeing how She\he basicly had this since birth, the condition IS lifelong. For all intent and purposes the brain is STUCK on "Female" and it won't go back either. So not she will not regret it.

Bingo. That's exactly it.

wow - so much bigotry.

People seem to be hung up on the genetic aspect of gender. There is a huge psychological factor to gender. If you were look at the brain of almost all transsexuals they would be wired in a "female" way. There would be no telling the difference between a genetic female and a transexual female.

When this is factored in, isnt it more of a "lie" for a transgendered person to live in there biological gender?

If you were look at the brain of almost all transsexuals they would be wired in a "female" way.

Even female to male transsexuals?

They always seem to be forgotten...

Even female to male transsexuals?

They always seem to be forgotten...
Opps, i should have said m2f transsexuals! thanx

Even female to male transsexuals?

They always seem to be forgotten...

Why is that? Is it because it's much easier for females to act in a masculine way or because female bodies can more easily ressemble that of a male than vice versa. Or is it just because our society does not want to think of the possability than a female could prefer a male body. After all, we seem to find the female body more artistically appealing.

Opps, i should have said m2f transsexuals! thanx

Happy to help :p

Should have been thrown off a cliff with other mutants.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/TrollScroll.jpg

Opps, i should have said m2f transsexuals! thanx

It's a reasonable mistake, I suppose. M2F transexuals are more common, I suppose. Plus the surgery's a LOT easier, I'd imagine.

It's a reasonable mistake, I suppose. M2F transexuals are more common, I suppose. Plus the surgery's a LOT easier, I'd imagine.

Oh definitely. And far more satisfactorily realistic.

Did either of you know, that with testosterone, the clitoris of a FtM elongates and becomes a small penis? The phalloplasty is to rewire the urinal tubes (can't remember the name) and to add length (I believe) at any rate, even though it is smaller than average, it is fully capable (I am told) of the full range of male sexual experience.

Did either of you know, that with testosterone, the clitoris of a FtM elongates and becomes a small penis? The phalloplasty is to rewire the urinal tubes (can't remember the name) and to add length (I believe) at any rate, even though it is smaller than average, it is fully capable (I am told) of the full range of male sexual experience.

I didn't know that, and could've lived to be quite old without knowing it.

I didn't know that, and could've lived to be quite old without knowing it.

You'll never know now... :p

Well I think it's great, considering the clitoris is supposed to be quite a lot more sensitive than the penis.

Did either of you know, that with testosterone, the clitoris of a FtM elongates and becomes a small penis? The phalloplasty is to rewire the urinal tubes (can't remember the name) and to add length (I believe) at any rate, even though it is smaller than average, it is fully capable (I am told) of the full range of male sexual experience.

Well, I know now :)