NationStates Jolt Archive

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/01_wk4/timkim280107_228x323.jpg
Even at the age of two, Tim insisted he was a girl trapped in a boy’s body.

And when puberty began to approach at the age of 12, he convinced his parents that something had to be done.

With their agreement, he became the youngest sex-change patient in the world, receiving hormone injections which arrested his male development.

Now, at 14, Tim has become Kim – a blue-eyed blonde with a growing bust line who is allowed to wear make-up at weekends.

She has no boyfriends at present but her parents say she is interested in what, now, is the opposite sex.

Her treatment, which has cost £18,000 so far, is being funded by the German taxpayer.

Psychiatrists treating her say she was an ‘exceptional case – a person clearly in the wrong body’, even though the decision to grant her wishes when she was so young is still the subject of intense debate.

Her identity and medical insurance cards have been changed to her new name and sex.

But she has not been placed at a different school in case of taunting from children who knew her as him in days gone by because, according to her parents, ‘her friends fully accept her as she is’.

She dresses in trendy clothes and told Germany’s Stern magazine that she ‘dreams of moving to Paris to become a fashion designer’.

The family’s full identity has not been made public. But Kim’s father, known as Lutz P, told Stern that as a child, Tim liked to play with Barbie dolls, enjoyed wearing dresses and, from the age of two, insisted that he was a girl.

‘We saw Kim as a girl, but not as a problem. Our life was surprisingly normal.’

Kim reacted badly to the first signs of puberty, he said.

‘At that stage we realised that she was terrified of growing facial hair and her voice breaking.’

Kim’s parents consulted psychiatrists across Germany.

Some condemned their support of their child’s desire to undergo a sex change, or suggested that she be kept under observation in a closed psychiatric ward.

But others agreed that the child should receive therapy, because growing up to be a man would have damaged her personality.

Dr Bern Meyenburg, the head of a clinic for children and adolescents with identity disturbances at Frankfurt University, concluded that the child was serious.

He wrote in his diagnosis: ‘Kim is a mentally well-developed child who appears happy and balanced.

‘There is no doubt of the determined wish, which was already detectable since early childhood. It would have been very wrong to let Kim grow up to be a man.

‘It is rare to have such a clear-cut case.’

The sex change will not become complete for another four years because while German law does not forbid hormone treatment for minors, they must be 18 before gender-transforming surgery can be carried out.

Dr Achim Wuesthof, who is treating Kim at a clinic in Hamburg, said: ‘To the best of my knowledge, Kim is the youngest sex-change patient in the world.

‘Imagine a man who suddenly starts growing breasts or a woman who starts growing a beard against their will – that is how Kim and people like her experience puberty.’

The UK’s youngest sex-change patient was Oliver Wheadon, from Wigton, Cumbria. He was 17 when he was granted the operation on the NHS four years ago and is now known as Angel Paris- Jordan.
Major, major apologies for the Daily Mail link.... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=432094&in_page_id=1770)

So, what do you think?

Should a child that young have been allowed to do this?

Should s/he have been allowed to delay puberty, but not to take hormones?

Should psychiatrists have treated her in another way, refusing transition unyil she was older?

More generally, how do you feel about transsexuals, male to female or female to male? Is the idea an abomination, or should transsexuals be allowed to pursue what they think is right?

He should wait till he's 18. Give him a good 6 years to think it over, y'know.

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

I agree, let them do what they want so long as the tax payer doesn't have to fund it.

From Tim to Kim? Wow that's really creative.

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

Even though it's the accepted solution to a psychiatric situation?

You would deny the proper treatment to someone with a psychiatric problem just because it happens to be transsexualism?

a lot of kids get their sex chosen for them at birth because their genitals are not fully developed either way (sorry, can't find a source on this, wouldn't know how to search it). at least this kid got the chance to choose for herself.

Even though it's the accepted solution to a psychiatric situation?

You would deny the proper treatment to someone with a psychiatric problem just because it happens to be transsexualism?

Why should the public fund a sex change? Start crossdressing if you think you're a woman.

There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

It's not a given, it's your opinion.

Why should the public fund a sex change? Start crossdressing if you think you're a woman.

In that case, why should the public fund any psychocological or psychiatric treatment?

And, FYI, 'cross-dressing' is an entirely different thing to GID. So that wouldn't solve the problem at all.

T/Kim should have the rights to do this, especially when the family supports it too. Waiting untill he's an adult would be far more traumatic.

Also £18,000 isn't much for a government but quite a bit for some (read: many) families. I think its a good thing that the state paid for it. If you got your face burnt to charcoal you would have liked the state to pay for cosmetic surgeries too; its the same idea.

Even though it's the accepted solution to a psychiatric situation?

You would deny the proper treatment to someone with a psychiatric problem just because it happens to be transsexualism?

Did he ever receive comprehensive psychiatric treatment and therapy for this problem?

I would rather have this mental disorder treated by therapy and medication than waste the government's money on a surgery that he might end up regretting in the future.

In that case, why should the public fund any psychocological or psychiatric treatment?

And, FYI, 'cross-dressing' is an entirely different thing to GID. So that wouldn't solve the problem at all.

Does the public pay for every little psychological problem someone has? Especially if it is in the sum of 18,000 Euros so someone can get their dick cut off? There are far worse problems that money could be spent on.

as long as the parents, kid, and doctors agree on it i dont see a problem, tax paid however i dont think is the way to go

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

i don't think that's quite right. a case could easily be made for this as a medical necessity. take, for example, the condition where a person becomes totally repelled by the presence of a limb (i forget what the condition is called now). feeling, seeing, touching that limb is severely distressing for that person to the point where they take it upon themselves to cut it off. psychiatrists are unable to 'cure' these feelings except with heavy tranquilizers, the only solution to this problem is to surgically remove the offending limb in a properly sterile environment by a professional surgeon. in the same way, for this girl growing male primary and secondary sexual features is extremely distressing to the point where she may well try to take it upon herself to do something about it. she may even end her life, already being depressed and then having a whole load of hormones streaming through her making her even more unbalanced she'd be a prime case for a teenage suicide. in my opinion a sex-change was a perfectly legitimate solution to her problem and could easily be deemed medically necessary.

Did he ever receive comprehensive psychiatric treatment and therapy for this problem?

I would rather have this mental disorder treated by therapy and medication than waste the government's money on a surgery that he might end up regretting in the future.

Of course she did. A 'sex change' is only considered as an option once all other avenues have been exhaused.

What are the other options?

The scary thing is that... it's... kinda hot.

i don't think that's quite right. a case could easily be made for this as a medical necessity. take, for example, the condition where a person becomes totally repelled by the presence of a limb (i forget what the condition is called now). feeling, seeing, touching that limb is severely distressing for that person to the point where they take it upon themselves to cut it off. psychiatrists are unable to 'cure' these feelings except with heavy tranquilizers, the only solution to this problem is to surgically remove the offending limb in a properly sterile environment by a professional surgeon. in the same way, for this girl growing male primary and secondary sexual features is extremely distressing to the point where she may well try to take it upon herself to do something about it. she may even end her life, already being depressed and then having a whole load of hormones streaming through her making her even more unbalanced she'd be a prime case for a teenage suicide. in my opinion a sex-change was a perfectly legitimate solution to her problem and could easily be deemed medically necessary.

But the difference is that transsexuality may be treatable by therapy, and it's on a lot larger scale than removing a limb. I don't know if they made an effort to really treat the problem in a less expensive and less intensive way than going through with this surgery.

If this kid's transsexuality is not a lifelong mental disorder, he's going to be completely screwed because this process is not reversible. Unlike therapy or local surgery, there really isn't a way to reverse or stop this change.

Should s/he have been allowed to delay pregnancy, but not to take hormones? I think you meant to type puberty.

Should psychiatrists have treated her in another way, refusing transition unyil she was older?Generally, I would instinctively say what we usually say in decisions involving permanent bodily modification: wait until they're old enough to really grasp the consequences of what they're doing.

But since in this case all the people actually involved in the case (as opposed to us here who are just reading the piece of quoted) agree that it was the right thing for the kid to do. And what they say makes sense and it certainly sounds like he would have suffered growing up as a boy. So, sure, of course they were right in commencing the treatment.

I don't know if there is an "average age" where most people realize they're transsexual but I'd guess she was probably at the lower end there. Meaning the question probably wouldn't come up for most people that early to begin with, I guess.


They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.
I agree, let them do what they want so long as the tax payer doesn't have to fund it.
Why should the public fund a sex change? Start crossdressing if you think you're a woman.

This is just so much bullshit.

This happened in Germany and we happen to have national health insurance - and believe it or not, but that insurance actually pays for things that are necessary to keep you healthy in body and mind. Crazy, I know. :rolleyes:

If a girl thinks she'd rather have her boobs enlarged because it'd look better in her sweater, she better have the money to pay for it.
But if someone doesn't want to leave the house anymore because she's a double F cup at 15, you bet insurance is going to cover it. As well it should.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/01_wk4/timkim280107_228x323.jpg

Major, major apologies for the Daily Mail link.... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=432094&in_page_id=1770)

So, what do you think?

Should a child that young have been allowed to do this?

Should s/he have been allowed to delay pregnancy, but not to take hormones?

Should psychiatrists have treated her in another way, refusing transition unyil she was older?

More generally, how do you feel about transsexuals, male to female or female to male? Is the idea an abomination, or should transsexuals be allowed to pursue what they think is right?


I take it the German Parliment has had too specify this under the tax allocation spending chart:

Tax revenue relocated too public service:

Health and Sanitation: 47%

Roadways and public transportation: 15%

Social Welfare: 34%

Trans gender procedures for genderly confused sexually ambiguous pre-adolescents: 4%

As for the proceedings, it was perfectly legal. Parental consent was present at its fullest, who seemed too support the notion.

Psychiatrists called it as they saw it. It seemed a majority of them concluded it was a case of "wrong natural gender" syndrome, and they promptly diagnosed it.

I have no shame in making fun of a transsexual. They chose too pursue an excessively expensive procedure, and were not born in that way. They have altered themselves, and are therefore not too be exempt from physical criticism. As for my opinion, it doesn't matter if you're a trans gender, do what you want, live and let live.

Of course she did. A 'sex change' is only considered as an option once all other avenues have been exhaused.

Eh, I still don't know if this was a good idea. You can't reverse this sort of thing.

Even so, if that's the only option, there's not really any other choice.

Does the public pay for every little psychological problem someone has? Especially if it is in the sum of 18,000 Euros so someone can get their dick cut off? There are far worse problems that money could be spent on.

Is there one worse than that which drives around half those who have it to suicide if it is left un'treated'?

Does the public pay for every little psychological problem someone has? Especially if it is in the sum of 18,000 Euros so someone can get their dick cut off? There are far worse problems that money could be spent on.

This money is doing something good for someone's whole life. There are a heck of a lot more places where governments waste sums like this, e.g. paying for the prison employees here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=516404

The scary thing is that... it's... kinda hot.

"It"?

But if someone doesn't want to leave the house anymore because she's a double F cup at 15, you bet insurance is going to cover it. As well it should.

If someone is a double F cup at 15, she's going to be very popular.

"It"?

I dunno. What is it? I don't consider it a female, because biology don't swing that way.

Perhaps an ultra-modified "he"?

If someone is a double F cup at 15, she's going to be very popular.

And have a painful back.

Should a child that young have been allowed to do this?

Absolutely. Her wishes were clear.

Should s/he have been allowed to delay pregnancy, but not to take hormones?

No, she should have been given the full treatment like she was. And the government should pay for it. This is not cosmetic.

More generally, how do you feel about transsexuals, male to female or female to male? Is the idea an abomination, or should transsexuals be allowed to pursue what they think is right?

The latter.

Is there one worse than that which drives around half those who have it to suicide if it is left un'treated'?

By untreated do you mean they didn't get a sex change or they didn't get psychiatric help?

The scary thing is that... it's... kinda hot.

Look at the face...he's definitely not hot once you look at.

I dunno. What is it? I don't consider it a female, because biology don't swing that way.

Perhaps an ultra-modified "he"?

You'll get slapped if you don't call someone whose DNA says XY a "she."

In Kim's case, I think that the halt of her puberty's progression was a good idea. If she hasn't felt comfortable in her skin since she was two years old and received therapy... She received more than a little therapy, I assure you. They make sure your mindset is not that of the gender you were born in.

As for creativity of the name-change from Tim to Kim, name-changes are usually not very creative for convenience reasons. It takes a while to get used to being called "Felicia" or "Jessica" or "Leilani" after being known as "Timothy" or "Benjamin" or "Scott" It would be much easier to become Kim, Brenda or Sonya.

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

Now, while I believe they should not be taxpayer funded...

Maybe in some medical way sex-change operations are considered cosmetic surgery... But it's medically necessary for these peoples' psychological standings. My friend SH, she shouldn't be alive today if she didn't get her operation. Or Mouseygirl. Or Gryphonboy.

I think you meant to type puberty.

Haha...oops.

I don't know if there is an "average age" where most people realize they're transsexual but I'd guess she was probably at the lower end there. Meaning the question probably wouldn't come up for most people that early to begin with, I guess.

Well, generally, I suppose people don't know what "transsexual" is until probably later than that age, but you realise long, long, before what you feel, you just don't know what the name for it is.

While, I see no problem with older people getting it as a preteen he proably experinced an hormonal imbalance which resulted in a confusion as for his gender which could have been treated with a mix or therapy and hormone treatment.

If someone is a double F cup at 15, she's going to be very popular.
Yeah, well, not really. More like being made fun of, unable to participate in many sports, unable to wear "normal" tops, and, as already mentioned, having back pain like crazy.

While, I see no problem with older people getting it as a preteen he proably experinced an hormonal imbalance which resulted in a confusion as for his gender which could have been treated with a mix or therapy and hormone treatment.

If its lasted 10 years, that's a pretty huge imbalance....

Yeah, well, not really. More like being made fun of, unable to participate in many sports, unable to wear "normal" tops, and, as already mentioned, having back pain like crazy.

And the fact that's he's a transsexual at age 15.

I dunno. What is it? I don't consider it a female, because biology don't swing that way.

Perhaps an ultra-modified "he"?

It is not a word you use for a human. It is a word you use for an object.

She is a young woman. Nothing else.

You'll get slapped if you don't call someone whose DNA says XY a "she."

I'll slap back >_>

But the difference is that transsexuality may be treatable by therapy, and it's on a lot larger scale than removing a limb. I don't know if they made an effort to really treat the problem in a less expensive and less intensive way than going through with this surgery.

If this kid's transsexuality is not a lifelong mental disorder, he's going to be completely screwed because this process is not reversible. Unlike therapy or local surgery, there really isn't a way to reverse or stop this change.

as nadkor has already pointed out, you have to go through serious therapy and psychoanalysis before surgeons will agree to conducting a sex-change operation.

anyway, transsexuality is treatable with therapy in the same way that homosexuality is. you don't consider youself a woman because you have a bug in your head, you consider yourself a woman because to all intents and purposes you are a woman.

if the kid's psychiatrists had determined that this was simply a disorder caused by an abnormal chemical imbalance in her brain, in the same way that chronic depression or schizophrenia are, then they would be administering drugs or recommending surgery to fix that. as it is they have determined that she genuinely is a female stuck in a male body. i really don't think you can judge this without being a professional with direct access to the case anyway.

Well, generally, I suppose people don't know what "transsexual" is until probably later than that age, but you realise long, long, before what you feel, you just don't know what the name for it is.That makes sense.

While, I see no problem with older people getting it as a preteen he proably experinced an hormonal imbalance which resulted in a confusion as for his gender which could have been treated with a mix or therapy and hormone treatment. Buh? So if in a kid it's only a "hormonal imbalance" what is it in older people, then?

She is a young woman. Nothing else.

Genetics says otherwise.

Genetics says otherwise.

Depends on how you define gender.

By untreated do you mean they didn't get a sex change or they didn't get psychiatric help?

Well, considering that for most transsexuals generally the only effective treatment is the sex change procedure....

She knew what she was doing. She felt this way for ten years; it's wasn't some sudden whim.

The "disorder" here was not her mental state in and of itself, but rather its incongruity with her formerly male body. The correct solution to it was to do exactly what was done.

Depends on how you define gender.

With Xs and Ys.

While, I see no problem with older people getting it as a preteen he proably experinced an hormonal imbalance which resulted in a confusion as for his gender which could have been treated with a mix or therapy and hormone treatment.

Hormone therapy has been pretty much discredited as a treatment for transsexualism, and therapy generally only comes to the conclusion the psychiatrists in this case came to.

Genetics says otherwise.

And genetics decides everything?

And genetics decides everything?

Yep, pretty much.

With Xs and Ys.

Others beg to differ.

If the doctors thought it appropriate treatment for a psychological disorder, then it was certainly an appropriate use of money.

With Xs and Ys.

Considering that gender is very much a psychological thing, it would be exceedingly odd to classify it by chromosomes.

Perhaps you mean sex? (which, itself, can't be classified by chromosomes)

Considering that gender is very much a psychological thing, it would be exceedingly odd to classify it by chromosomes.

Perhaps you mean sex? (which, itself, can't be classified by chromosomes)

It's the same thing.

Yep, pretty much.

So a woman born with a vagina, who is brought up as a girl, and who discovers at puberty that she has XY chromosones is.....?

With Xs and Ys.

that's sex you are talking about. gender =/= sex.

in fact it's not even sex. sex is determined by the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of our physiology. Xs and Ys have nothing to do with who we are as people, they are just how our genes are arranged.

It's the same thing.

Yea...no it's not. You need to learn your definitions before you carry on in this thread...

So a woman born with a vagina, who is brought up as a girl, and who discovers at puberty that she has XY chromosones is.....?

Fucked up.

Considering that gender is very much a psychological thing, it would be exceedingly odd to classify it by chromosomes.

Perhaps you mean sex? (which, itself, can't be classified by chromosomes) I was gonna say that.

But then I figured the answer would be this:
It's the same thing.

I feel so prescient.

Yep, pretty much.

you need some re-education, mate. environment has just as much impact on us as genetics. and we don't even understand yet to what extent either of them matters, or if there are other factors we can't even fathom.

Fucked up.

You realise that your almighty genetics decided it? Bet you won't say that if its your own child.

Fucked up.

A person born with a vagina, who considers themselves to be a woman, isn't a woman, she is "fucked up" just because her genes don't match your ideal?

A person born with a vagina, who considers themselves to be a woman, isn't a woman, she is "fucked up" just because her genes don't match your ideal?

It's GENETICS. It's solid science.

you need some re-education, mate. environment has just as much impact on us as genetics. and we don't even understand yet to what extent either of them matters, or if there are other factors we can't even fathom.

The fact that this child is literally a female in a male body shows that biology may play a lot smaller role in our gender than we think...this is literally the mind overpowering biology and totally rewiring their personal identity.

An interesting case, to say the least.

The fact that this child is literally a female in a male body shows that biology may play a lot smaller role in our gender than we think...this is literally the mind overpowering biology and totally rewiring their personal identity.

Not biology; sex chromosomes.

The causes of transsexuality are almost certainly biological.

It's GENETICS. It's solid science.

Somehow I doubt your science qualifications.

I was gonna say that.

But then I figured the answer would be this:


I feel so prescient.

Yea, I expected as much, really...

Not biology; sex chromosomes.

The causes of transsexuality are almost certainly biological.

Yes, but this case was totally resistant to any form of psychological or hormonal therapy. If it were strictly biological, it should be able to be treated without a sex-change operation.

It's GENETICS. It's solid science.

You that genetics can be summed up by this:
XX = Female
XY = Male?
And that's all there is?

Good Lord, you're wrong.

Solid science, and GENETICS, also gives us XY females. And XO. And XXY. And XYY. And numerous other combinations.

You actually think that a person born with a vagina but XY chromosomes can't possibly have happened, because it's GENETICS?

Tough, solid science disagrees with you.

Yes, but this case was totally resistant to any form of psychological or hormonal therapy. If it were strictly biological, it should be able to be treated without a sex-change operation.

Nonsense. Homosexuality is also almost certainly biological; it can't be "cured" either.

What it means is that there are more biological factors than sex chromosomes that produce innate gender, and that they are more or less immutable.

Yes, but this case was totally resistant to any form of psychological or hormonal therapy. If it were strictly biological, it should be able to be treated without a sex-change operation.

Yea...that's not how it works.

Because it is a physical "malformation" (wrong word, I know, but it gets the idea across), the only way to fix it is to correct the physical problem.

Nonsense. Homosexuality is also almost certainly biological; it can't be "cured" either.

What it means is that there are more biological factors than sex chromosomes that produce innate gender, and that they are more or less immutable.

Of course, if those biological factors were discovered, it would be possible to "cure" these sexual orientations.

I think there is a mental component to it that is resistant to treatment as well; the only way to check is to compare across different cultures with different views on gender and see if this orientation takes a similar form.

You that genetics can be summed up by this:
XX = Female
XY = Male?
And that's all there is?

Good Lord, you're wrong.

Solid science, and GENETICS, also gives us XY females. And XO. And XXY. And XYY. And numerous other combinations.

You actually think that a person born with a vagina but XY chromosomes can't possibly have happened, because it's GENETICS?

Tough, solid science disagrees with you.

My sister has a friend who's got female bone structure, fat displacement, skin and hair texture, but has male genitalia. Basically, it's a female with "guy parts", though he/she (or she/he? gah!) doesn't give it any second thought.

Genetics is freaky and wonderful.

Major, major apologies for the Daily Mail link.... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=432094&in_page_id=1770)

So, what do you think?

Should a child that young have been allowed to do this?

Should s/he have been allowed to delay pregnancy, but not to take hormones?

Should psychiatrists have treated her in another way, refusing transition unyil she was older?

More generally, how do you feel about transsexuals, male to female or female to male? Is the idea an abomination, or should transsexuals be allowed to pursue what they think is right?

this is exactly what should have been done. I know a transexual who has no money and unsupportive parents. his/her life was hellish - all through college she woke up at 3 in the morning to shower when there were no men in the room she was obliged to use, she was brutally mocked through most of her education, and has gone through huge ammounts of emotional pain. transexuals are more likely to be victims of fatal hate crimes than any other demographic in existance, less likely than pretty much anyone to receive support and understanding from family, and highly unlikely in many places to find any friends.

He should wait till he's 18. Give him a good 6 years to think it over, y'know.

I think you meant "she". and waiting until she was 18 would be 16 years to think it over, as the article states twice she was convinced of her gender by the age of 2.

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

no, they are not cosmetic surgeries.

a lot of kids get their sex chosen for them at birth because their genitals are not fully developed either way (sorry, can't find a source on this, wouldn't know how to search it). at least this kid got the chance to choose for herself.

the wikipedia article on intersexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality#Biological_causes_of_intersexuality) has the statistics on this. it's estimated at between .1% of all live births and .02%. either way, no one on this board, statistically speaking, has NOT met someone who was surgically altered at birth to resemble one gender over another.

Why should the public fund a sex change? Start crossdressing if you think you're a woman.

because the state exists to provide services to better the lives of its citizens. as its been stated repeatedly, some transexuals experience extreme anguish over thier condition. they're more likely to be the victims of suicide and hate crimes than any other group of people.

Did he ever receive comprehensive psychiatric treatment and therapy for this problem?

I believe you mean "she", and yes, she did.

I would rather have this mental disorder treated by therapy and medication than waste the government's money on a surgery that he might end up regretting in the future.

again, you mean "she". considering the vast majority of cultures throughout human history have recognized transexuality or third gender status (the government of Iran, for crying out loud, recognises transexuality as a medical condition, funds the surgery, and has done so for more than 20 years), charactorising this as a "mental disorder" is inaccurate. this is a recognized status, not a delusion.

Does the public pay for every little psychological problem someone has? Especially if it is in the sum of 18,000 Euros so someone can get their dick cut off? There are far worse problems that money could be spent on.

this is not a psychological problem - you do not treat psychological problems by conforming reality to a delusion. every psychological association throughtout the world recognizes that transexuality is best treated by gender reassignment, near the exact opposite of the treatment for a *delusion*.

If this kid's transsexuality is not a lifelong mental disorder, he's going to be completely screwed because this process is not reversible. Unlike therapy or local surgery, there really isn't a way to reverse or stop this change.

you mean "She". and again, it is not a delusion, it is a state of being.

While, I see no problem with older people getting it as a preteen he proably experinced an hormonal imbalance which resulted in a confusion as for his gender which could have been treated with a mix or therapy and hormone treatment.

she probably experienced. her gender.

as nadkor has already pointed out, you have to go through serious therapy and psychoanalysis before surgeons will agree to conducting a sex-change operation.

anyway, transsexuality is treatable with therapy in the same way that homosexuality is. you don't consider youself a woman because you have a bug in your head, you consider yourself a woman because to all intents and purposes you are a woman.

if the kid's psychiatrists had determined that this was simply a disorder caused by an abnormal chemical imbalance in her brain, in the same way that chronic depression or schizophrenia are, then they would be administering drugs or recommending surgery to fix that. as it is they have determined that she genuinely is a female stuck in a male body. i really don't think you can judge this without being a professional with direct access to the case anyway.

thank you.

Genetics says otherwise.

actually, no they don't. genetics is not an exact science at this point, and since you appear to be oblivious to this fact, many people are born something *other* than XY or XX. there are, to my knowledge, 5 or 6 possible chromosone combinations, 3 non-xy/xx. there are also multiple cases in which the child reacts (or doesn't react) to hormones differently than most do.

With Xs and Ys.

and an O, actually. and 2 other combinations available other than XX and XY. XXX is also available, I think.

It's GENETICS. It's solid science.

which is in its infancy, and which you seem to know very little about in any event.

Yes, but this case was totally resistant to any form of psychological or hormonal therapy. If it were strictly biological, it should be able to be treated without a sex-change operation.

resistant? it's not a disease. many social species have sub-classes within them that aren't reproductive (some, communal insects come to mind, have societies in which nearly no individuals reproduce) - the same genetic material reacts differently to hormones. while these individuals aren't the norm, they're entirely natural and generally have unique roles to play within the social structure of the group. androgeny among aborigional cultures was key to the developement of religion and social organisation. there hasn't been a single major culture group in the history of the world that hasn't recognized a form of inter or transexuality as a vital part of thier social order.

I feel so prescient.

we are dealing with that mind famous for it's barricades and bolted doors afterall. honestly, it's a wonder some people manage to project their thoughts at all, they must need super synaptic slingshots to get them over those towering traverses. w00t for aliteration :P

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

Simply, I agree. There's tons more that taxpayer money needs to be spent on than gender re-assignment, as much as I sympathize with some of them (having one friend who may be on a similar path).

Nonsense. Homosexuality is also almost certainly biological; it can't be "cured" either.


Well, uh...actually...

http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ci=108&ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=17393

Interesting stuff. Definately raises some ethical issues.

Simply, I agree. There's tons more that taxpayer money needs to be spent on than gender re-assignment, as much as I sympathize with some of them (having one friend who may be on a similar path).

a pathetic smidgeon of the military budget in the US could provide gender reassignment surgery to anyone in the entire world who wanted it.

Yes, but last time I checked, the government's duty was to protect its country and its way of life, not provide sex-change operations.

Well, uh...actually...

Saw that already; it's not clear that the procedure works in the long-term, or universally, though.

Yes, but last time I checked, the government's duty was to protect its country and its way of life, not provide sex-change operations.

What about providing for the well-being of its citizens?

a pathetic smidgeon of the military budget in the US could provide gender reassignment surgery to anyone in the entire world who wanted it.

Silly Vegan Nuts - everyone knows that finding new and better ways to kill people is a far superior use of money than preventing immense emotional pain and difficulty.

I don't see it becoming something for use on humans - brings up way too many ethical issues, plus it's not anything I would call definitive - if it was, it sure would be interesting. It could be something that would really benefit a person if they wanted to change. But that brings up the issue - should you change something if you were born that way? Are you being true to yourself, then? I guess it's actually pretty similar to sex-change operations in that sense.

the wikipedia article on intersexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality#Biological_causes_of_intersexuality) has the statistics on this. it's estimated at between .1% of all live births and .02%. either way, no one on this board, statistically speaking, has NOT met someone who was surgically altered at birth to resemble one gender over another.
thanks for finding that, i didn't know what it was called

again, you mean "she". considering the vast majority of cultures throughout human history have recognized transexuality or third gender status (the government of Iran, for crying out loud, recognises transexuality as a medical condition, funds the surgery, and has done so for more than 20 years), charactorising this as a "mental disorder" is inaccurate. this is a recognized status, not a delusion.

...

resistant? it's not a disease. many social species have sub-classes within them that aren't reproductive (some, communal insects come to mind, have societies in which nearly no individuals reproduce) - the same genetic material reacts differently to hormones. while these individuals aren't the norm, they're entirely natural and generally have unique roles to play within the social structure of the group. androgeny among aborigional cultures was key to the developement of religion and social organisation. there hasn't been a single major culture group in the history of the world that hasn't recognized a form of inter or transexuality as a vital part of thier social order.

that's interesting about Iran, i didn't know that at all. you wouldn't happen to have a source for that would you? i'm writing my dissertation at the moment on the evidence for gender roles and gender representation in the archaeological record of ancient mesopotamia and a large part of my research has focused on the possibility of multiple recognised genders. it is becoming increasingly evident that modern (post-"enlightenment") Western culture is pretty much alone in it's belief in the existence of only two rigidly defined genders that are directly related to biological sex. a very interesting topic indeed but something that relies rather heavily on ethnographic comparisons with recent or current societies. a modern example so close to my area would be very useful. :)

His/her treatment was funded with the taxpayers money!!!! If that's not a reason not to pay your taxes then god I don't know what is. I'm sure glad I'm not living in Germany right now cause that country has gone to hell.

What about providing for the well-being of its citizens?

Then it boils down to what side of the political spectrum you fall on - I'm a staunch libertarian, so I would have to say that it's not something a government should be supplying, any more so than a government should pay for breast enlargements.

His/her treatment was funded with the taxpayers money!!!! If that's not a reason not to pay your taxes then god I don't know what is. I'm sure glad I'm not living in Germany right now cause that country has gone to hell.

I'm pretty sure most western/'civilised' countries do the same.

Then it boils down to what side of the political spectrum you fall on - I'm a staunch libertarian, so I would have to say that it's not something a government should be supplying, any more so than a government should pay for breast enlargements.

So you would say that the government should have no hand in the treatment of psychological problems?

Then it boils down to what side of the political spectrum you fall on - I'm a staunch libertarian, so I would have to say that it's not something a government should be supplying, any more so than a government should pay for breast enlargements.

as has already been demonstrated by at least two posters in this thread, sex-change surgery is not cosmetic.

Meh.

I'm pretty sure most western/'civilised' countries do the same.

So now European nations get to define what is civilized and what is not? And you say Americans are bigoted/nationalistic/whatever? In that case, fuck you, you piece of Eurotrash. I hope the US never meets your standards of civilized.

Did he ever receive comprehensive psychiatric treatment and therapy for this problem?

I would rather have this mental disorder treated by therapy and medication than waste the government's money on a surgery that he might end up regretting in the future.

Actually, it may infact not be a mental disorder at all. It is entirely plausible, infact it is probable, that his/her brain developed differently in certain key parts which determine sexuality.

Infact, this notion is something that has been known for thousands of years(In that sex and gender are not the same thing, and that two people of the same sex could be different genders etc and so forth). For instance, there are some native American groups which had 14 genders, involving everthing including such notion as a "man trapped in a woman's body", and vice versa.

With that said, this is just her adapting to the Western cultural notion that there are only two genders, and that she must be one or the other(And thus would feel out of place in society as a whole). No amount of psycological treatment would fix this, bub.

So you would say that the government should have no hand in the treatment of psychological problems?

Why yes, yes I do - in fact, socialized medicine is one of the greatest foul-ups in the history of modern civilization, and I fully expect it to collapse well before I am able to partake in it myself (i.e., Medicare).

as has already been demonstrated by at least two posters in this thread, sex-change surgery is not cosmetic.

I agree with you, but many would not - I think Kim's life has changed for the better, now. As I have stated before, however, I don't believe in socialized medicine.

that's interesting about Iran, i didn't know that at all. you wouldn't happen to have a source for that would you? i'm writing my dissertation at the moment on the evidence for gender roles and gender representation in the archaeological record of ancient mesopotamia and a large part of my research has focused on the possibility of multiple recognised genders. it is becoming increasingly evident that modern (post-"enlightenment") Western culture is pretty much alone in it's belief in the existence of only two rigidly defined genders that are directly related to biological sex. a very interesting topic indeed but something that relies rather heavily on ethnographic comparisons with recent or current societies. a modern example so close to my area would be very useful. :)

It really is, actually. See my above example of certain Native Americans having as many as 14 genders. It's entirely cultural, and this surgery is just her trying to aline with her culture's notion of the relationship between gender and sexuality.

So now European nations get to define what is civilized and what is not?

They do? Fantastic!

And you say Americans are bigoted/nationalistic/whatever?

I do?

In that case, fuck you, you piece of Eurotrash. I hope the US never meets your standards of civilized.

And I hope I never meet yours.

Anway, darling I don't believe I was talking to you, or even referenced either Europe or the US. So please go away.

Why yes, yes I do - in fact, socialized medicine is one of the greatest foul-ups in the history of modern civilization, and I fully expect it to collapse well before I am able to partake in it myself (i.e., Medicare).

Socialised medicine?

It really is, actually. See my above example of certain Native Americans having as many as 14 genders. It's entirely cultural, and this surgery is just her trying to aline with her culture's notion of the relationship between gender and sexuality.

that's a good way of putting it, hadn't quite thought about it like that before. expanding on that might be a fruitful way of getting people who are staunch traditionalists with the whole gender thing and who don't want the state to pay for this sort of procedure to really consider what they are arguing for/against. i love it when the contradictions of blind conservativism are exposed.

i knew that a lot of research had been done on multiple genders in native american societies, didn't know there was as many as 14 though! wow! :eek: just goes to show how narrow and restrictive our own societies' gender attribution is.

Google search for 'socialized' - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=socialized

...and one for 'sociaised.' - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Socialised

Google search for 'socialized' - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=socialized

...and one for 'sociaised.' - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Socialised

....what?

I'm pretty sure most western/'civilised' countries do the same.I for one am glad I don't live in a 'civilised' country. I much prefer living in a civilized country.

It really is, actually. See my above example of certain Native Americans having as many as 14 genders. It's entirely cultural, and this surgery is just her trying to aline with her culture's notion of the relationship between gender and sexuality.

Not necessarily, it probably largely her mind trying to 'realign' her body with it's view of what her body should be.

I for one am glad I don't live in a 'civilised' country. I much prefer living in a civilized country.

...you haven't encountered the concept of the "ise/d" ending yet?

Poor you.

Are you the same person as Rignezia? He doesn't seem to have either. If not, you two would probably get along just fine.

I'm a little lost - how is believing that there are two genders blind conservatism? Is it inherently wrong for a society to assert two genders? I don't see why that is wrong, just like I don't see why it is wrong for a society to have more genders than that. You can't ask a society to go against something like that - 'Oh, I believe in seven genders, but since you only have two, you have to help me conform to one of those two.' Am I missing something? I mean this sincerely, because your wording has me confused.

It sounds like what was done in this case was exactly what should have been done. Given her doctors' and parents' belief that going through puberty as a male would be severely traumatic for Kim, they prevented that from happening. When she is 18, she can (and presumably will) get the final surgery. In the meantime, she's happy and functional instead of miserable and ashamed. Sounds like the right choice to me. :)

Google search for 'socialized' - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=socialized

...and one for 'sociaised.' - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Socialised

And you posted this useless graffiti why?

this surgery is just her trying to aline with her culture's notion of the relationship between gender and sexuality.

This may be true for some varieties of transgenderism, but my understanding is that transsexuality tends to consist of a reaction to the physical form of the body as well as the cultural gender roles.

So it's more than that.

I'm a little lost - how is believing that there are two genders blind conservatism? Is it inherently wrong for a society to assert two genders? I don't see why that is wrong, just like I don't see why it is wrong for a society to have more genders than that. You can't ask a society to go against something like that - 'Oh, I believe in seven genders, but since you only have two, you have to help me conform to one of those two.' Am I missing something? I mean this sincerely, because your wording has me confused.

Whose wording?

Whose wording?

Infinite Revolutions wording I believe.

...you haven't encountered the concept of the "ise/d" ending yet?

Poor you.

Are you the same person as Rignezia? He doesn't seem to have either. If not, you two would probably get along just fine.

Well, I would be insulted, but this is coming from the guy who can't find any other way to attack people save by criticizing their spelling -

Oh, by the way genius, if the endings are both correct, it works both ways, and you're the one who attacked me first - you haven't encountered the concept of the 'ized' ending yet? Poor you.

IMO, striking before puberty seems a biologically adept solution. Strike while the iron's hot and all that.

Well, I would be insulted, but this is coming from the guy who can't find any other way to attack people save by criticizing their spelling -

Oh, by the way genius, if the endings are both correct, it works both ways, and you're the one who attacked me first - you haven't encountered the concept of the 'ized' ending yet? Poor you.

Haha, what? Whose spelling did I criticise? How did I 'attack'2 you? And it's not guy, but the way, I have "female" written in my signature for a reason.

Are you a parody?

I'm half expecting you to reply with something about a parrot.

IMO, striking before puberty seems a biologically adept solution. Strike while the iron's hot and all that.

But, wouldn't the iron be cold in this case? :p

Haha, what?

Are you a parody?

I'm half expecting you to reply with something about a parrot.

I think he interpreted your response of "socialised medicine?" to be referring to his use of the -ize ending.

I think he interpreted your response of "socialised medicine?" to be referring to his use of the -ize ending.

Then he has a serious persecution complex...is it Eut? :D

I'm a little lost - how is believing that there are two genders blind conservatism? Is it inherently wrong for a society to assert two genders? I don't see why that is wrong, just like I don't see why it is wrong for a society to have more genders than that. You can't ask a society to go against something like that - 'Oh, I believe in seven genders, but since you only have two, you have to help me conform to one of those two.' Am I missing something? I mean this sincerely, because your wording has me confused.

well i wasn't calling you a blind conservative. the blind conservatism i was talking about is the one, exhibited by a few posters in this thread, that suggests that two genders is the only way to be and anything else is just ridiculous. specifically when this belief is coupled with the belief that anyone who does not conform to this sort of gender division is some kind of abomination or is "fucked up" as one poster so eloquently put it and that those who don't conform to the two rigidly defined genders should just suck it up and force themselves to conform no matter how miserable that might make them.

Transexuals freak me right the hell out.

Gay men, straight women... what you see is what you get. But transexuals? A man who has his genitals surgically removed is NOT a woman. He's a man in denial. But that doesn't stop them from pretending to be women, and the very thought of that pisses me off.

It's not the idea. I'm fine with the fact they'd rather be women. It's not the sex change itself that bothers me, it's when they bullshit other people into believing their lie.

Having a friend come out of the closet to you? Akward. Taking your girlfriend up to your room only to find out she's not actually a woman? Beyond akward.

Regarding the story however, I believe this was foolish on the parents part. 12? 12 year olds are stupid. Most sane people realize this. They aren't even at that rebellious stage yet where they just BEGIN to learn how to make their own decisions. Everything before that is just preparation, and even during their teenage years we kids still aren't at the point where we should be making such life changing decisions. As a teenager, it tends to be difficult to make mistakes with dire consequences, so it gives us a safe learning ground to explore our personalities and build our knowledge of action=reaction.

This kid is nowhere near old enough to make a decision like this. Sure, he may think he's a girl, he may want to be a girl. But he could very well have survived without a sex change until he was older, more mature.

It's like a little girl saying "I want a pony". She can't have a damn pony! She's not prepared to undertake the responsibility of owning a pony! When she's older, she can buy some stables and get a pony, but as a child, she lacks many of the fundamental things a pony needs to live. And when she's older, and realizes all the trouble a pony is, she might not want said pony anymore.

Take what you will from that similie, but the point is, a 12 year old is not old enough to make these sorts of decisions. His parents should have waited till he was old enough to sign the papers himself.

It's like a little girl saying "I want a pony". She can't have a damn pony! She's not prepared to undertake the responsibility of owning a pony! When she's older, she can buy some stables and get a pony, but as a child, she lacks many of the fundamental things a pony needs to live. And when she's older, and realizes all the trouble a pony is, she might not want said pony anymore.


to paraphrase a classic by the nazz: "that's not even comparing apples to oranges, that's like comparing apples to cosmic space dust!"

now go read through the whole thread and find the rebuttals to everything else you said. education is fun ;)

... I believe the only thing I really said was that "12 year olds are too stupid to make their own decisions". Unless people have gotten to the point where they're refuting every word of every sentance already. Usually that takes at LEAST ten pages of religious debate.

Are you meaning to tell me children with their grade four edumucation and their ABD's are mentally prepared to make decisions as important as having your baby makers taken off?

GASP! How could I have been so blind? I should have watched the movie Baby Geniuses. Maybe then I wouldn't be in this embarassing predicament.

Unless it's something about "hormones" and "genetics"... at which point I don't care. I'm not a brilliant scientist so it'd all go right over my head anyways.

And before you ask, yes, "edumucation" was on purpose.

Edit: To reply to Poli, it's a lie in the sense that just because they look like women, doesn't mean they function like women. I'm pretty sure transexuals can't have children. Though science can do creepily amazing things...

As for the "lying", I'm mainly reffering to a transexual who would not bring it up till it's too late. I'm pretty sure no pre-op transexual would tell you otherwise, as that would be quite problematic.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure what you're born with is what you get. Do you agree with the mental patients who see the magical purple elf? The way we think has nothing to do with our gender. I am a man, because I was born with a penis. If it fell off and a vagina somehow grew, that's pretty much the same thing as a sex change (except more impossible... and you know, actually turning me into a woman) and thus I'd still refer to myself by what I was born as.

You can put all the rims and racing stripes you want on your Smartcar, but underneath it all, it's still a smartcar.

Transexuals freak me right the hell out.

Gay men, straight women... what you see is what you get. But transexuals? A man who has his genitals surgically removed is NOT a woman. He's a man in denial. But that doesn't stop them from pretending to be women, and the very thought of that pisses me off.

It's not the idea. I'm fine with the fact they'd rather be women. It's not the sex change itself that bothers me, it's when they bullshit other people into believing their lie.

Having a friend come out of the closet to you? Akward. Taking your girlfriend up to your room only to find out she's not actually a woman? Beyond akward.


I'm not sure how you figure that it's a "lie," especially when you're talking about post-op transsexuals. If someone looks like a woman, talks like a woman, thinks like a woman, acts like a woman, and furthermore has all of the physical characteristics of a woman, how exactly is she lying when she calls herself a woman?

Of course, I don't think she'd be lying pre-op, either. While it's admittedly an oversimplification, one can reasonably think of a transgendered person as having a brain of a different gender than that indicated by their genitalia. Personally, I define who I am as a human being much more by how I think than by what's going on between my legs. I strongly suspect that you do too, whether you recognize it or not. Assuming you're male, do you really believe that if, through some magical process, your penis fell off tomorrow and you grew a vagina, you would think of yourself as a woman? If not, why should a transgendered person, looking at genitalia that their brain is telling them are wrong, define him or herself by those genitalia?

... I believe the only thing I really said was that "12 year olds are too stupid to make their own decisions". Unless people have gotten to the point where they're refuting every word of every sentance already. Usually that takes at LEAST ten pages of religious debate.

Are you meaning to tell me children with their grade four edumucation and their ABD's are mentally prepared to make decisions as important as having your baby makers taken off?

GASP! How could I have been so blind? I should have watched the movie Baby Geniuses. Maybe then I wouldn't be in this embarassing predicament.

Unless it's something about "hormones" and "genetics"... at which point I don't care. I'm not a brilliant scientist so it'd all go right over my head anyways.

And before you ask, yes, "edumucation" was on purpose.
no, i was talking about how it wasn't simply up to the kid, she'd gone through extensive therapy and psycho-analysis before this treatment was seriously considered. i very much doubt the kid said anything as coherent as "i want surgery", more likely she said "i want to be a girl" and it was rekoned by her parents and her psychiatrists and the surgeons who will work on her, that this was the best solution to her predicament. if you'd read the thread and the article properly you would know this.

Edit: To reply to Poli, it's a lie in the sense that just because they look like women, doesn't mean they function like women. I'm pretty sure transexuals can't have children. Though science can do creepily amazing things...

Yes, actually, it does mean they "function as women." Fertility is not in any way a defining quality of femininity; post-menopausal women are still indisputably women.

As for the "lying", I'm mainly reffering to a transexual who would not bring it up till it's too late. I'm pretty sure no pre-op transexual would tell you otherwise, as that would be quite problematic.

When is it "too late"? Too late for what? :confused:

And yeah, I'm pretty sure what you're born with is what you get. Do you agree with the mental patients who see the magical purple elf?

I'm not sure what "mental patients" you're referring to. I gather only that you think "mental patient" is some sort of insult, which is entertainingly ignorant of you.


The way we think has nothing to do with our gender. I am a man, because I was born with a penis. If it fell off and a vagina somehow grew, that's pretty much the same thing as a sex change (except more impossible... and you know, actually turning me into a woman) and thus I'd still refer to myself by what I was born as.


The way we think has everything to do with our gender. That's kind of the definition of "gender." There's a great deal of evidence that men's and women's brains function differently; the fact that you either ignore this or are unaware of it doesn't exactly help your argument. It's strange to me that, while you seem perfectly capable of understanding that, when your genitalia and your brain don't match, it's your brain that determines your identity, for some reason you don't seem to be able to understand that the same principle holds true even when those mismatched genitals are the only ones you've ever known.

... I believe the only thing I really said was that "12 year olds are too stupid to make their own decisions". Unless people have gotten to the point where they're refuting every word of every sentance already. Usually that takes at LEAST ten pages of religious debate.

Are you meaning to tell me children with their grade four edumucation and their ABD's are mentally prepared to make decisions as important as having your baby makers taken off?
I certainly agree 12 year olds can not make such hugely impacting decisions for themselves, that's why they have parents. The decision to allow the hormone proceedure to go ahead may be in line with the girl's wishes, and clearly they could not have secured the treatment without the proffesional opinion of qualified practitioners, but ultimately it was the parent's decision. Given we allow parents to make life and death medical decisions for their children, the capacity to make such a monumental decision is not outside the scope of what is routinely given over to the authority of parents. While no parent ought to be allowed to have such proceedures carried out on their off-spring where it is contrary to the child's wishes, certainly acquising to them is well within the scope of authority typically placed within the hands of legal guardians/parents.
Further there is no indication that Kim ever decided to be a female, it seems rather that she realised it.

GASP! How could I have been so blind? I should have watched the movie Baby Geniuses. Maybe then I wouldn't be in this embarassing predicament.

Unless it's something about "hormones" and "genetics"... at which point I don't care. I'm not a brilliant scientist so it'd all go right over my head anyways.

And before you ask, yes, "edumucation" was on purpose.
Right, so you naysay the informed opinion of those who know her best, of proffesionals qualified to judge the situation from a psychiatric perspective as well as proffesionals who unlike yourself do have an exceptional understanding of hormones and genetics, along with the decade long understanding/belief of Kim herself, knowing full well that you lack the knowledge necessary to form a useful opinion. I never could comprehend this line of thought -"I know I dont know enough to know one way or the other, but I am definately right while those who do know enough to know one way or the other are definately wrong"...:rolleyes:

Edit: To reply to Poli, it's a lie in the sense that just because they look like women, doesn't mean they function like women. I'm pretty sure transexuals can't have children. Though science can do creepily amazing things...
Right, so in your utterly unqualified opinion my Aunt, born with a vagina, who developed female secondary characteristics, has a womb, has always felt as though she is a female, and has the XX genetic component associated with the female sex, is in fact something other than a female because she is unable to bear a child. :rolleyes:

As for the "lying", I'm mainly reffering to a transexual who would not bring it up till it's too late. I'm pretty sure no pre-op transexual would tell you otherwise, as that would be quite problematic.
Once again you are wrong. My friends Aunt was transgendered for decades before she was able to undergo the sex reassignment proceedures. Not a single male she ever involved herself with romantically/sexually was unaware of her identity, every single one knew 'before it was too late'. Careful your complete lack of a clue is showing.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure what you're born with is what you get. Do you agree with the mental patients who see the magical purple elf? The way we think has nothing to do with our gender. I am a man, because I was born with a penis. If it fell off and a vagina somehow grew, that's pretty much the same thing as a sex change (except more impossible... and you know, actually turning me into a woman) and thus I'd still refer to myself by what I was born as.
Gender identity roles are socially constructed, not biologically mandated. The large majority of humans fall into one of two broad categories with regards to their sex and this usually aligns itself with 'gender' aspects of their identity in a manner that is consistent with the gender constructions in their society. However we do know that there are more than two sexes, further it is not true that the 'gender' aspects of a persons identity necessarily matches up with the features our culture traditionally associate with the two predominate sexes.
You can put all the rims and racing stripes you want on your Smartcar, but underneath it all, it's still a smartcar.
Humans observations are the basis of the ideas and understanding we have about sexes, but they are not definitive of sexes. If you had only ever observed two kinds of vegetables, say carrots and potatoes, you could be
forgiven for concluding that vegetables were either carrots or potatoes, but when you then go on to observe the existence of corn, such a conclusion becomes ludicrous. That is where we are with sexes, we have observed sexes that dont fall into the 2 previously known, observed, and assumed to be universal sexes, it would be ludicrous for us to carry on as though our first observations defined reality when we have proof that the scope of those observations is far too narrow to describe reality as it actually is.

as long as the parents, kid, and doctors agree on it i dont see a problem, tax paid however i dont think is the way to go

I don't know if that has been cleared up here already, but "tax paid" is not quite acurate. The state doesn't pay for any form of medical expensese. Health insurances do.

In Germany, the situation is such that health insurance is mandatory, meaning everybody HAS to have and pay for health insurance. There are public insurances, semi-private and private insurances. Some of these insurances will cover sex change operations, others won't. In this case, the insurance of the girl's parents did pay for it. That does not equate to the money being taken out of the pockets of the entire German population.

Yep, pretty much.

What would you call someone who's XXY, then?

... I believe the only thing I really said was that "12 year olds are too stupid to make their own decisions". Unless people have gotten to the point where they're refuting every word of every sentance already. Usually that takes at LEAST ten pages of religious debate.

Are you meaning to tell me children with their grade four edumucation and their ABD's are mentally prepared to make decisions as important as having your baby makers taken off?

...


Hold up a bit. So far its all reversible, you know... Kim's not taking the final step untill she becomes an adult. Besides, she did spend 10 years thinking over it.

If Kim herself, her parents and the psychologists (and there will have been more than one) all agree it was right then I do to and doing it before the onset of puberty is a GOOD THING, she will have a much easier time in her later life because of it. Not least because she won't have an adams apple which is always a dead giveaway for the poor souls and neither will she have to have surgery to change her voice to something more feminine (because of the adams apple).

Who cares if the taxpayers had to foot the bill? this child NEEDED help and to be quite honest it sounds relatively inexpensive. I can quite believe that skingraft operations or brain surgery could come close to that. Plus it's not like these things are routine.

Perhaps if it was self inflicted there would be a basis for whining about tax payers money but when this kind of thing happens in the UK this is EXACTLY what the NHS is for. Spreading the cost of medical procedures among the populace so that no one person need ever go without no matter how much they do or do not earn.

Huh... I read about this story a few days back. Article wasn't very comprehensive though. Thing is, transgenderism (for want of a better word, as GID kinda grates on me a little now) IS usually identified by the individual at a young age - usually. However, at the same time, there are a lot of people who're convinced they are, right down to the marrow, and change their mind. This doesn't seem to be one of those cases, though. I'm certainly in favour of blockers given at this age - wouldn't have chosen them myself, but that's more due to where my life has taken me now, I'm guessing than anything. I know from personal experience that what you feel can change - even if it isn't drastic, you grow up, know yourself a little better, some things alter, some things don't. Even my own view on my transition has evolved. Hasn't changed much, but even the tiniest skew can change your life. I don't reckon there's anything MUCH wrong going on here. my only qualm, actually, is the media attention - From my recollection (ie, take with salt if you've heard otherwise) most trans people who regret their surgery felt somewhat pressured into going the whole hog - and nobody does pressure like a media circus - it might be what she feels now, but not everyone wants the surgery, long term.

So, what do you think?

Great news for her, and never having gone through a male puberty will ensure her transition will have very, very good results.

Should a child that young have been allowed to do this?

Yes.

Should s/he have been allowed to delay puberty, but not to take hormones?

There is no other way to delay puberty other than taking hormones, except of course castration.

Should psychiatrists have treated her in another way, refusing transition unyil she was older?

Nope-

More generally, how do you feel about transsexuals, male to female or female to male? Is the idea an abomination, or should transsexuals be allowed to pursue what they think is right?

I support transsexuals and I am very happy that there is a medical procedure available that lets them lead as close to a normal life as possible, drastically improving their mental health and lowering the fatality risk involved with being stuck in the wrong body. As it is in many cases a life-saving intervention I have no qualms about the procedure being covered by national health care insurance not only because it saves and improves lives, but also because it makes financial sense to have transsexual people get well as soon as possible so they can become "tax-paying cogs in the wheel" like the rest of us (if one wants to be cynical and only look at the bottom line).

Having read the article, I think this was absolutely the right decision. Its a difficult issue, but if the kid was already exhibiting symptoms by age of two or three thats a fairly good sign that it isn't a temporary phase. Must say I've been quite disappointed by the fact there have been some quite transphobic comments on here, thought we had a more enlightened forum than that.

Must say I've been quite disappointed by the fact there have been some quite transphobic comments on here, thought we had a more enlightened forum than that.

Have a cursory glance at any LGBT thread and you'll soon enough be able to quickly recognise the idiots and also as quickly see them for being that. Then ignoring them and their deficiencies becomes even more effortless.

Have a cursory glance at any LGBT thread and you'll soon enough be able to quickly recognise the idiots and also as quickly see them for being that. Then ignoring them and their deficiencies becomes even more effortless.

As much as I like to start reading every thread with an optimistic view of humanity, you are (as usual) totally correct.

What would you call someone who's XXY, then?

a person who is XXY has a genetic disorder. they are still considered male, but can not reproduce.

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.
What exactly do you consider medically necessary? Obviously not treatment for psychiatric problems, or you wouldn't be against preventing her from having some rather serious ones. Sex reassignment is hardly cosmetic.

If you have a large disfiguring growth on your face, do you think it should just be left there if it poses no health risk? Or could you be persuaded to let the taxpayers pay to remove it. Hardly a perfect analogy, but that's "cosmetic" and most people have no problem with tax payer funding.

a person who is XXY has a genetic disorder. they are still considered male, but can not reproduce.

You're missing the point....

He should wait till he's 18. Give him a good 6 years to think it over, y'know.
Indeed.

This was not only a radical decision on his part, but also a radical decision on the doctor's part...IIRC, it involves some slow, long and cautious step-by-step preparation in order to change sex, and if during this time period, it shouldn't have been accelerated this quickly...not that I'm a technophobe or a science phobe, but this is a radical decision and while I may disagree with it, I can respect her (formerly his) decision.

If someone is a double F cup at 15, she's going to be very popular.

Not if she's fat and kinda homely and poor. She'll get teased endlessly and move away as soon as possible, I know, cuz I knew this girl. :(

Indeed.

This was not only a radical decision on his part, but also a radical decision on the doctor's part...IIRC, it involves some slow, long and cautious step-by-step preparation in order to change sex, and if during this time period, it shouldn't have been accelerated this quickly...not that I'm a technophobe or a science phobe, but this is a radical decision and while I may disagree with it, I can respect her (formerly his) decision.

I can tell you from personal experience it's no decision - the doctors support is unconventional, but not radical, given the child will have invariably been seen by more psychs than I can count, and for most of her life, especially if this has been going on since age 2. You're right though, it does involve the slow, long and cautious step by step road... I read the articles a few hours ago, so I can't remember if estrogens are being prescribed.... just blockers though, will merely stop her going through a male puberty, which is a good thing, as she'll never have to cope with growing facial hair, voice breaking, and the numerous other things that can cause considerable distress.

I can tell you from personal experience it's no decision - the doctors support is unconventional, but not radical, given the child will have invariably been seen by more psychs than I can count, and for most of her life, especially if this has been going on since age 2. You're right though, it does involve the slow, long and cautious step by step road... I read the articles a few hours ago, so I can't remember if estrogens are being prescribed.... just blockers though, will merely stop her going through a male puberty, which is a good thing, as she'll never have to cope with growing facial hair, voice breaking, and the numerous other things that can cause considerable distress.
I know that there will be a lot of psychological consideration going on and preparing for sex change...but regardless, at this age, even if Kim (formerly Tim) hadn't felt right since the age of two, this is a bit extreme, and while I can respect the individual's decision, it still is a bit unnerving and a radical from my perspective.

You're missing the point....

what would that be.
being a transexual is not a genetic disorder. Klinefelter syndrome ( having xxy chomosomes) is. they are two very different things.

I know that there will be a lot of psychological consideration going on and preparing for sex change...but regardless, at this age, even if Kim (formerly Tim) hadn't felt right since the age of two, this is a bit extreme, and while I can respect the individual's decision, it still is a bit unnerving and a radical from my perspective.

It's not a big deal. Nothing is really being permanently changed; Kim's just not going to go through puberty like teenage boys. Compared with cutting things up all over 6 years later this is a much less traumatic approach.

You're missing the point....

what would that point be?

What about providing for the well-being of its citizens?

happiness and well-being is for commie eurotrash fags. :rolleyes:

Silly Vegan Nuts - everyone knows that finding new and better ways to kill people is a far superior use of money than preventing immense emotional pain and difficulty.

mea culpa.

I don't see it becoming something for use on humans - brings up way too many ethical issues, plus it's not anything I would call definitive - if it was, it sure would be interesting. It could be something that would really benefit a person if they wanted to change. But that brings up the issue - should you change something if you were born that way? Are you being true to yourself, then? I guess it's actually pretty similar to sex-change operations in that sense.

I honestly feel like whatever the moral standing of things like homosexuality and transexuality and the whole alphabet soup...if there's a God then it is something that that person was born to grow with. I've tried to be open minded about the possibility homosexuality really is sinful (being pro gay rights just because you're gay is about as commendable as being pro-nazi because you're german...) and even when I was considering that, I never once thought that it was anything but how I was "supposed" to be, even if that meant that it was just something difficult I was supposed to deal with. to answer your question, I don't think we have any business changing our bodies to meet a pre-conceived notion of what is ideal. practically the whole point of living is to strive for improvement and growth - if we were born perfect there would be neither. *shrug* just my two cents.

thanks for finding that, i didn't know what it was called

that's interesting about Iran, i didn't know that at all. you wouldn't happen to have a source for that would you? i'm writing my dissertation at the moment on the evidence for gender roles and gender representation in the archaeological record of ancient mesopotamia and a large part of my research has focused on the possibility of multiple recognised genders. it is becoming increasingly evident that modern (post-"enlightenment") Western culture is pretty much alone in it's belief in the existence of only two rigidly defined genders that are directly related to biological sex. a very interesting topic indeed but something that relies rather heavily on ethnographic comparisons with recent or current societies. a modern example so close to my area would be very useful. :)

sorry, I don't remember in what context I heard it - of course since it's Iran, the sex-changes are manditory once you've been evaluated and given the go-ahead. if you don't get approved for the sex change, they inject you with large doses of male hormones and attempt to resocialise you as an uber-male. *gag* still, transexuality is something that's been recognized in persia and the near east since well before the code of hamurabi. for lots and lots of wonderful information on the history of third genders, there's a website produced by a linguist who's dedicated much time and effort (the entire page is very thoroughly sourced and cross-referenced) to the dozens of words in different languages that modern western translators have simply rendered "eunuch".

here's the link (http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/), and here is a link (http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum%5Fkhnumhotep/) concerning the tomb of two high ranking egyptian officials, apperently a "gay" couple burried together. he uses this as context to explain a single word translated variously as "eunuch" and "funerary priest" which appears to have meant a class of 3rd gender religious functionaries. there are all sorts of intellectual goodies that first website links to.

So now European nations get to define what is civilized and what is not? And you say Americans are bigoted/nationalistic/whatever? In that case, fuck you, you piece of Eurotrash. I hope the US never meets your standards of civilized.

as annoying as my anthropologist-inclined self finds the way people fling around the word "civilised", chill out.

It really is, actually. See my above example of certain Native Americans having as many as 14 genders. It's entirely cultural, and this surgery is just her trying to aline with her culture's notion of the relationship between gender and sexuality.

eh. I've heard that Hijras, a very very old class of transexuals in India, will ritually castrate themselves (without anesthesia, with shards of pottery...ow) as a rite of passage within thier community. it's not just a cultural thing to desire change at the anatomical level.

that's a good way of putting it, hadn't quite thought about it like that before. expanding on that might be a fruitful way of getting people who are staunch traditionalists with the whole gender thing and who don't want the state to pay for this sort of procedure to really consider what they are arguing for/against. i love it when the contradictions of blind conservativism are exposed.

i knew that a lot of research had been done on multiple genders in native american societies, didn't know there was as many as 14 though! wow! :eek: just goes to show how narrow and restrictive our own societies' gender attribution is.

14? I've read quite a bit on the topic (I don't particularly consider myself "male" either, though it doesn't bother me to the extent I'd want surgery, since I don't identify as female either)

I for one am glad I don't live in a 'civilised' country. I much prefer living in a civilized country.

oh come on. british and american spellings. I'm american and I use the british spelling more often than not, get over it.

I'm a little lost - how is believing that there are two genders blind conservatism? Is it inherently wrong for a society to assert two genders? I don't see why that is wrong, just like I don't see why it is wrong for a society to have more genders than that. You can't ask a society to go against something like that - 'Oh, I believe in seven genders, but since you only have two, you have to help me conform to one of those two.' Am I missing something? I mean this sincerely, because your wording has me confused.

it's inherently wrong for a society to forcefully assert anything that compromises the dignity of another human being. you could believe there was 1 gender, for all it mattered, so long as you didn't go around denying people who felt differently the right to do something about it.

Transexuals freak me right the hell out.

*snip*

thank you for admitting that you have a substantial bias. and I should think that it is the responsible thing to do to tell your partner, whoever you are, who you are and where you are coming from. it's pretty lame that people will have sex with someone who they barely know (and I say this as someone who has done just that on multiple occasions) - before getting intimate with someone it stands to reason that you should know about them. if you don't, and aren't OK with thier past, then you should have taken the time to get to know them before you were in thier pants. if they aren't honest, that's another issue, but not one that transexuals have any sort of monopoly on.

I'm not sure how you figure that it's a "lie," especially when you're talking about post-op transsexuals. If someone looks like a woman, talks like a woman, thinks like a woman, acts like a woman, and furthermore has all of the physical characteristics of a woman, how exactly is she lying when she calls herself a woman?

Of course, I don't think she'd be lying pre-op, either. While it's admittedly an oversimplification, one can reasonably think of a transgendered person as having a brain of a different gender than that indicated by their genitalia. Personally, I define who I am as a human being much more by how I think than by what's going on between my legs. I strongly suspect that you do too, whether you recognize it or not. Assuming you're male, do you really believe that if, through some magical process, your penis fell off tomorrow and you grew a vagina, you would think of yourself as a woman? If not, why should a transgendered person, looking at genitalia that their brain is telling them are wrong, define him or herself by those genitalia?

QFT

Having read the article, I think this was absolutely the right decision. Its a difficult issue, but if the kid was already exhibiting symptoms by age of two or three thats a fairly good sign that it isn't a temporary phase. Must say I've been quite disappointed by the fact there have been some quite transphobic comments on here, thought we had a more enlightened forum than that.

symptoms? even the people who agree with her on here seem to talk about transexuality like its a disease. I don't know exactly what wording to use either, but "symptoms" and "Treatment" seem to imply that, rather than these feelings being perfectly normal for a small, but naturally occuring healthy group of people, they are signs of a deviation from optimal health. maybe I'm being over-sensitive here...

symptoms? even the people who agree with her on here seem to talk about transexuality like its a disease. I don't know exactly what wording to use either, but "symptoms" and "Treatment" seem to imply that, rather than these feelings being perfectly normal for a small, but naturally occuring healthy group of people, they are signs of a deviation from optimal health. maybe I'm being over-sensitive here...

Only a tiny bit, to me anyway.


It's a kind of middle ground. I refer to my hormone therapy as treatment, mainly because it's just easiest to. What else do you call it, really? But I don't call transsexualism a disease of any kind either. I'm only one voice of the 'community' though, and my opinion is formed purely by myself. Some people I've met DO call it an illness, because it's something you're treated for and hopefully, work through. Some people don't refer to it as anything, and just do whatever comes naturally. I refer to it as treatment mainly because it brings my body in line with what I feel it should be.

symptoms? even the people who agree with her on here seem to talk about transexuality like its a disease. I don't know exactly what wording to use either, but "symptoms" and "Treatment" seem to imply that, rather than these feelings being perfectly normal for a small, but naturally occuring healthy group of people, they are signs of a deviation from optimal health. maybe I'm being over-sensitive here...

Apologies if it has come across that way. I certainly do not view it as a "deviance". As someone who has had "issues" regarding gender identity for some time but lacked the courage to act, I'd very much not want to give the impression that these are my views. Totally, I take your point. I guess my rationale in using those words is that having a clash between sex and gender has negative effects on well-being, and requires, if that person is to live a fulfilled life, some kind of medical intervention. I guess thats why i used medical terminology such as "symptoms" or "treatment" in my post. I accept that this topic is somewhat the verbal minefield! Find me some better words to use and I'll willingly use them :p.

T/Kim should have the rights to do this, especially when the family supports it too. Waiting untill he's an adult would be far more traumatic.
Also £18,000 isn't much for a government but quite a bit for some (read: many) families. I think its a good thing that the state paid for it. If you got your face burnt to charcoal you would have liked the state to pay for cosmetic surgeries too; its the same idea.
Absolutely. And (Like Cabra said later on) it's not the state that pays for it, but the health insurance. Slight difference...
as long as the parents, kid, and doctors agree on it i dont see a problem, tax paid however i dont think is the way to go
It's funded by the insurance company, and believe it or not - in Germany we still have something like a solidarity community (=Solidargemeinschaft), especially when it comes to health care.
i don't think that's quite right. a case could easily be made for this as a medical necessity.
(...)
in the same way, for this girl growing male primary and secondary sexual features is extremely distressing to the point where she may well try to take it upon herself to do something about it. she may even end her life, already being depressed and then having a whole load of hormones streaming through her making her even more unbalanced she'd be a prime case for a teenage suicide. in my opinion a sex-change was a perfectly legitimate solution to her problem and could easily be deemed medically necessary.
My thoughts!
Generally, I would instinctively say what we usually say in decisions involving permanent bodily modification: wait until they're old enough to really grasp the consequences of what they're doing.
But since in this case all the people actually involved in the case (as opposed to us here who are just reading the piece of quoted) agree that it was the right thing for the kid to do. And what they say makes sense and it certainly sounds like he would have suffered growing up as a boy. So, sure, of course they were right in commencing the treatment.
I don't know if there is an "average age" where most people realize they're transsexual but I'd guess she was probably at the lower end there. Meaning the question probably wouldn't come up for most people that early to begin with, I guess.
This is just so much bullshit.
This happened in Germany and we happen to have national health insurance - and believe it or not, but that insurance actually pays for things that are necessary to keep you healthy in body and mind. Crazy, I know. :rolleyes:
If a girl thinks she'd rather have her boobs enlarged because it'd look better in her sweater, she better have the money to pay for it.
But if someone doesn't want to leave the house anymore because she's a double F cup at 15, you bet insurance is going to cover it. As well it should.
Again, I can only agree.
This money is doing something good for someone's whole life. There are a heck of a lot more places where governments waste sums like this, e.g. paying for the prison employees here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=516404
Exactly!
What about providing for the well-being of its citizens?
That concept is completely unknown in some parts of the world? :p
His/her treatment was funded with the taxpayers money!!!! If that's not a reason not to pay your taxes then god I don't know what is. I'm sure glad I'm not living in Germany right now cause that country has gone to hell.
So what? It ain't your tax euros, and I for one am glad that our health insurance would cover such measures. Besides, I don't think you know enough about Germany to make that call.
But I'm sure glad you ain't living here, 'cause that kind of attitude wouldn't improve Germany either.
So now European nations get to define what is civilized and what is not? And you say Americans are bigoted/nationalistic/whatever? In that case, fuck you, you piece of Eurotrash. I hope the US never meets your standards of civilized.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Feuerlscher.gif
It sounds like what was done in this case was exactly what should have been done. Given her doctors' and parents' belief that going through puberty as a male would be severely traumatic for Kim, they prevented that from happening. When she is 18, she can (and presumably will) get the final surgery. In the meantime, she's happy and functional instead of miserable and ashamed. Sounds like the right choice to me. :)
I can only agree!
IMO, striking before puberty seems a biologically adept solution. Strike while the iron's hot and all that.
Yes. Just imagine going through puberty with the feeling that nothing is the way it should be. Now, that would be horrible indeed.
I don't know if that has been cleared up here already, but "tax paid" is not quite acurate. The state doesn't pay for any form of medical expensese. Health insurances do.
In Germany, the situation is such that health insurance is mandatory, meaning everybody HAS to have and pay for health insurance. There are public insurances, semi-private and private insurances. Some of these insurances will cover sex change operations, others won't. In this case, the insurance of the girl's parents did pay for it. That does not equate to the money being taken out of the pockets of the entire German population.
Thanks for clearing that up, Cabra.
If Kim herself, her parents and the psychologists (and there will have been more than one) all agree it was right then I do to and doing it before the onset of puberty is a GOOD THING, she will have a much easier time in her later life because of it. Not least because she won't have an adams apple which is always a dead giveaway for the poor souls and neither will she have to have surgery to change her voice to something more feminine (because of the adams apple).
Who cares if the taxpayers had to foot the bill? this child NEEDED help and to be quite honest it sounds relatively inexpensive. I can quite believe that skingraft operations or brain surgery could come close to that. Plus it's not like these things are routine.
Perhaps if it was self inflicted there would be a basis for whining about tax payers money but when this kind of thing happens in the UK this is EXACTLY what the NHS is for. Spreading the cost of medical procedures among the populace so that no one person need ever go without no matter how much they do or do not earn.
Yup! Again, I agree.
Great news for her, and never having gone through a male puberty will ensure her transition will have very, very good results.
I support transsexuals and I am very happy that there is a medical procedure available that lets them lead as close to a normal life as possible, drastically improving their mental health and lowering the fatality risk involved with being stuck in the wrong body. As it is in many cases a life-saving intervention I have no qualms about the procedure being covered by national health care insurance not only because it saves and improves lives, but also because it makes financial sense to have transsexual people get well as soon as possible so they can become "tax-paying cogs in the wheel" like the rest of us (if one wants to be cynical and only look at the bottom line).
Yes!
Having read the article, I think this was absolutely the right decision. Its a difficult issue, but if the kid was already exhibiting symptoms by age of two or three thats a fairly good sign that it isn't a temporary phase. Must say I've been quite disappointed by the fact there have been some quite transphobic comments on here, thought we had a more enlightened forum than that.
I agree. (Although NSG doesn't really surprise me any more...)

Well, uh...actually...

http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ci=108&ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=17393

Interesting stuff. Definately raises some ethical issues.

Unfortunately the article you link to is a complete misrepresentation of the work being carried out and it has been refuted by the research team.:rolleyes:

What exactly do you consider medically necessary? Obviously not treatment for psychiatric problems, or you wouldn't be against preventing her from having some rather serious ones. Sex reassignment is hardly cosmetic.

If you have a large disfiguring growth on your face, do you think it should just be left there if it poses no health risk? Or could you be persuaded to let the taxpayers pay to remove it. Hardly a perfect analogy, but that's "cosmetic" and most people have no problem with tax payer funding. Thanks for that, I wanted to write something to that effect in response to Vetalia last night but then it was 5am and I crashed. :/

This kid is nowhere near old enough to make a decision like this. Sure, he may think he's a girl, he may want to be a girl. But he could very well have survived without a sex change until he was older, more mature.

It's like a little girl saying "I want a pony". She can't have a damn pony! She's not prepared to undertake the responsibility of owning a pony! When she's older, she can buy some stables and get a pony, but as a child, she lacks many of the fundamental things a pony needs to live. And when she's older, and realizes all the trouble a pony is, she might not want said pony anymore.

Take what you will from that similie, but the point is, a 12 year old is not old enough to make these sorts of decisions. His parents should have waited till he was old enough to sign the papers himself.
no, i was talking about how it wasn't simply up to the kid, she'd gone through extensive therapy and psycho-analysis before this treatment was seriously considered. i very much doubt the kid said anything as coherent as "i want surgery", more likely she said "i want to be a girl" and it was rekoned by her parents and her psychiatrists and the surgeons who will work on her, that this was the best solution to her predicament. if you'd read the thread and the article properly you would know this. That, and she had been feeling like this ever since she was a toddler. It's not like, as a fickle twelve year old, she suddenly came up and said "Hey, you know what, I wanna be a boy!" :rolleyes:


Transexuals freak me right the hell out.

Gay men, straight women... what you see is what you get. But transexuals? A man who has his genitals surgically removed is NOT a woman. He's a man in denial. But that doesn't stop them from pretending to be women, and the very thought of that pisses me off.

It's not the idea. I'm fine with the fact they'd rather be women. It's not the sex change itself that bothers me, it's when they bullshit other people into believing their lie.

Having a friend come out of the closet to you? Akward. Taking your girlfriend up to your room only to find out she's not actually a woman? Beyond akward.

As for the "lying", I'm mainly reffering to a transexual who would not bring it up till it's too late. I'm pretty sure no pre-op transexual would tell you otherwise, as that would be quite problematic.

Wow... You scare me. "But that doesn't stop them from pretending to be women, and the very thought of that pisses me off." It pisses you off? Why on earth would it piss you off?

I've never understood why transexuals attract violent reactions - what is they actually do to you? Is it really as obvious as feeling threatened by something you can't put into your usual categories? How could anybody possibly be so insecure? Ah, just liberal psycho-babble, you say? So, then what is it? Why would anybody simply trying to live their life as a man or woman even if they were born "into a different body" possibly offend you??? Why would you take it as a personal affront? Somehow I really doubt you ever had a transexual con you into believing something about them and in result leave you scarred for life and traumatised and pathologically angry at a whole group of people you've never met.

Must say I've been quite disappointed by the fact there have been some quite transphobic comments on here, thought we had a more enlightened forum than that.
Indeed. Especially Canadialand here reads like a character out of Boys Don't Cry.

what would that be.
being a transexual is not a genetic disorder. Klinefelter syndrome ( having xxy chomosomes) is. they are two very different things.

Sure it is. You have the wrong genes for your brain.

Sure it is. You have the wrong genes for your brain.

those "genes for your brain" don't determine what gender you are.

those "genes for your brain" don't determine what gender you are.

Perhaps you've misunderstood me. What I meant was that there are the wrong genes for the way the brain is configured.

For example; an MtF has XX genes, which are the wrong ones for the brain's gender. If you know what I mean.

those "genes for your brain" don't determine what gender you are.

Hmmm...I am going to have to beg to differ. If I remember correctly, biological sex is determined by chromosones (though there can be quirks in these, complicating the matter somewhat) but that the gender of the brain depends on hormones received while in the womb. Well, thats one theory I have come across. It certainly isn't as clear cut as you seem to be suggesting.

Hmmm...I am going to have to beg to differ. If I remember correctly, biological sex is determined by chromosones (though there can be quirks in these, complicating the matter somewhat) but that the gender of the brain depends on hormones received while in the womb. Well, thats one theory I have come across. It certainly isn't as clear cut as you seem to be suggesting.

true. the sex of the babie as a whole is determined by what hormone is present. i, however, was stating that the genetic disorder of xxy is not the same as being a transsexual.
the person in the original article was a boy that thought he was a girl. he had no genetic disordes. he just thought that he was a girl. his parents seemed to encourage this, so he kept on thinking this. he was confused, nothing else.

true. the sex of the babie as a whole is determined by what hormone is present. i, however, was stating that the genetic disorder of xxy is not the same as being a transsexual.
the person in the original article was a boy that thought he was a girl. he had no genetic disordes. he just thought that he was a girl. his parents seemed to encourage this, so he kept on thinking this. he was confused, nothing else.

Yeah, you really don't know much about transgenderism, do you?

Yeah, you really don't know much about transgenderism, do you?

if the child has xy chromosomes, its a male.
if the child has xx chromosomes, its a female.
a child with xx choromsomes is not a male regardless of how it feels.

true. the sex of the babie as a whole is determined by what hormone is present. i, however, was stating that the genetic disorder of xxy is not the same as being a transsexual.
the person in the original article was a boy that thought he was a girl. he had no genetic disordes. he just thought that he was a girl. his parents seemed to encourage this, so he kept on thinking this. he was confused, nothing else.

It's nothing to do with "what hormone is present"... you don't flood a womb with testosterone for a boy, or estrogen for a girl.... if it's anything, it's various hormone levels, potential deficiencies and surplusses, and that's just a theory, which has yet to be substantiated beyond doubt and has many detractors, from my research. Nevermind that the creation of any human is an imperfect process, hence why we're all born different. Making a human is not like making a computer, and the results cannot be predicted. I don't see why a physically male child with a female brain, or vise versa, is so unbelievable, when you consider the sheer diversity of humanity. The exception of this to all others is illogical.

if the child has xy chromosomes, its a male.
if the child has xx chromosomes, its a female.
a child with xx choromsomes is not a male regardless of how it feels.
And yet it seems that Kim is a happy young girl with XY chromosomes.

if the child has xy chromosomes, its a male.
if the child has xx chromosomes, its a female.
a child with xx choromsomes is not a male regardless of how it feels.

If a child has XY chromosones, but is born with a vagina, a uterus etc., believes themselves to be a genetic female, and everybody else believes it to be so as well, there being no evidence otherwise, and only discovers in early teens that she has XX chromosones, does that make her all of a sudden a male?

In addition, simply repeating this far too basic mantra, which has been shown to be false previously in this thread, does nothing to help your credibility.

Your statement above that "he just thought that he was a girl. his parents seemed to encourage this, so he kept on thinking this. he was confused, nothing else." is fundamentally flawed". Even transgendered individuals who rigidly enforce gender roles when they suspect their child may act outside of them, as opposed to 'encouraging' it, generally continue to feel the same way into adulthood. So to say that she was just confused and the only reason for her transition is her parent's encouragement is completely wrong.

And yet it seems that Kim is a happy young girl with XY chromosomes.

the human brain does't stop developing until the age of 21. HE is delusional.

if the child has xy chromosomes, its a male.
if the child has xx chromosomes, its a female.
a child with xx choromsomes is not a male regardless of how it feels.

http://health.enotes.com/genetic-disorders-encyclopedia/xx-male-syndrome

This seems to disprove your merry theory.

If a child has XY chromosones, but is born with a vagina, a uterus etc., believes themselves to be a genetic female, and everybody else believes it to be so as well, there being no evidence otherwise, and only discovers in early teens that she has XX chromosones, does that make her all of a sudden a male?

if she had xx chromosomes, then she is a female. you can't magically switch which chromosomes you have. how did she go from xy to xx?

the human brain does't stop developing until the age of 21. HE is delusional.
Actually, the human brain never stops developing and changing.

But you're simply being ignorant: If it were only the child, that'd be one thing. But there's doctors and specialists attached to her case. You can believe what you want, but I'll accept their professional appraisement over your prejudice any day.

http://health.enotes.com/genetic-disorders-encyclopedia/xx-male-syndrome

This seems to disprove your merry theory.

enotes.com is hardly a reputable site.

Actually, the human brain never stops developing and changing.

But you're simply being ignorant: If it were only the child, that'd be one thing. But there's doctors and specialists attached to her case. You can believe what you want, but I'll accept their professional appraisement over your prejudice any day.

i'm not stopping you. she is just receiving a hormone to halt puberty.

if she had xx chromosomes, then she is a female. you can't magically switch which chromosomes you have. how did she go from xy to xx?

Oh, typo, that XX should read XY. Now answer the (revised) question:

If a child has XY chromosomes, but is born with a vagina, a uterus etc., believes themselves to be a genetic female, and everybody else believes it to be so as well, there being no evidence otherwise, and only discovers in early teens that she has XY chromosomes, does that make her all of a sudden a male?

enotes.com is hardly a reputable site.

It was the first site I googled in which the terms were broken into easily understandable terms that wouldn't confuse everyone but a specialist. But then, please, explain why you are more reputable, with your blanket... proofless statements.

Also, please explain how, when it comes to chromosones, nature suddenly becomes infallible, with no abnormalities in its entire history?

Oh, typo, that XX should read XY. Now answer the (revised) question:

If a child has XY chromosomes, but is born with a vagina, a uterus etc., believes themselves to be a genetic female, and everybody else believes it to be so as well, there being no evidence otherwise, and only discovers in early teens that she has XY chromosomes, does that make her all of a sudden a male?

genetically speaking, yup.

genetically speaking, yup.

And physically? And would you call them delusional for being female?

When you are that certain, from the very beginning? Yes, I support the parents in helping her.

It was the first site I googled in which the terms were broken into easily understandable terms that wouldn't confuse everyone but a specialist. But then, please, explain why you are more reputable, with your blanket... proofless statements.

Also, please explain how, when it comes to chromosones, nature suddenly becomes infallible, with no abnormalities in its entire history?

well then, i should just believe the first site that you googled. i'm sorry i ever doubted anything.

i never said abnormalities never occured. i simply stated that the boy in the article only beleived he was a girl without any proof that he was.

genetically speaking, yup.

You would tell a 13 year old girl that she's male?

And expect to not sound completely ludicrous?

You would tell a 13 year old girl that she's male?

And expect to not sound completely ludicrous?

if, in fact, he did have xy chromosomes, then yes i would.

well then, i should just believe the first site that you googled. i'm sorry i ever doubted anything.

If you don't want to believe that one you could believe these:
http://uuhsc.utah.edu/healthinfo/adult/men/infertil.htm
http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=525&PrintPage=1

well then, i should just believe the first site that you googled. i'm sorry i ever doubted anything.



nononononono. See, this might be where the argument is coming from, a blindspot, you're just not seeing half of what I'm typing. Just a second, I'll try again.

"It was the first site I googled in which the terms were broken into easily understandable terms that wouldn't confuse everyone but a specialist."

You see? it doesn't actually just say "it was the first site I googled", now does it? It's amazing how the other half of the sentence can change the meaning entirely.

And physically? And would you call them delusional for being female?

yes i would.

if, in fact, he did have xy chromosomes, then yes i would.

Wait, now you're actually referring to her as "he"?

A girl, born with the body of a girl, brought up as a girl, with nobody having any reason to suspect she is nothing other than a normal girl, having had no surgery to make her that way, discovers she has XY chromosones, and because of that you call her "he"?

You really are absurd.

I just hope you're trolling. There's no other excuse for the sheer....fucked-up-ness.

They should be allowed to do what they want provided they either give consent or have parental consent, but it shouldn't be taxpayer-funded. There's more important things to spend money on, especially given that sex-change operations are cosmetic surgery rather than medically necessary.

This is more than cosmetic surgery. Hormonal treatments physically alter how this person is going to grow, and the changes are going to be much more that skin deep. As for 'medically necessary'...there are many treatments that are medically necessary that are not live-saving. If there is a mental/physical divide, why SHOULDN'T the corrective therapy be funded? This isn't just a case of 'I wish I'd been born a girl'...this is 'I'm a girl, and something went horribly wrong when I was born'.

yes i would.

Then you say abnormalities never occur. exactly what you denied. You have said, categorically, that it is impossible for an XY female (born with female characteristics, with female gender identity) to exist. Infallibility in nature... that's a new one.

I agree, let them do what they want so long as the tax payer doesn't have to fund it.

Right. And since skin grafts for burn patients are just cosmetic, we shouldn't pay for that either. Women who have masectomies due to breast cancer shouldn't get implants for free. Cleft palletes? Live with it! People born with their fingers fused together should not be funded to have their hands reconstructed. Those selfish bastards, taking our money for unecessary procedures!

nononononono. See, this might be where the argument is coming from, a blindspot, you're just not seeing half of what I'm typing. Just a second, I'll try again.

"It was the first site I googled in which the terms were broken into easily understandable terms that wouldn't confuse everyone but a specialist."

You see? it doesn't actually just say "it was the first site I googled", now does it? It's amazing how the other half of the sentence can change the meaning entirely.

not realy. you still googled it. regardless of how technical the article is, unless a doctor ar some othe authourity wrote it, and backed up the statements with fact, i don't have to believe it.

Then you say abnormalities never occur. exactly what you denied. You have said, categorically, that it is impossible for an XY female (born with female characteristics, with female gender identity) to exist. Infallibility in nature... that's a new one.

don't tell me what i say. he has male dna. he is male.

if the child has xy chromosomes, its a male.
if the child has xx chromosomes, its a female.
a child with xx choromsomes is not a male regardless of how it feels.

You didn't answer the question which was, "You don't know much about transgenderism do you?"

The answer to that is obviously, "No."

Wait, now you're actually referring to her as "he"?

A girl, born with the body of a girl, brought up as a girl, with nobody having any reason to suspect she is nothing other than a normal girl, having had no surgery to make her that way, discovers she has XY chromosones, and because of that you call her "he"?

You really are absurd.

I just hope you're trolling. There's no other excuse for the sheer....fucked-up-ness.

yes. i am absurd. now that we have that out of the way, who are you to say that my beliefs are wrong?

And yet it seems that Kim is a happy young girl with XY chromosomes.

I think that's probably what's pissing certain people off the most. How dare they spend ''OUR" (re: taxpayer's, even in another country) money to be happy?

Wait, now you're actually referring to her as "he"?

A girl, born with the body of a girl, brought up as a girl, with nobody having any reason to suspect she is nothing other than a normal girl, having had no surgery to make her that way, discovers she has XY chromosones, and because of that you call her "he"?
I went to high school with that girl, as a matter of fact. She might have gone her entire life without knowing she had XY chromosomes, except for an unrelated medical issue that led to her finding out about it after some tests were run. She was, and remains, a girl. She simply has XY chromosomes.

don't tell me what i say. he has male dna. he is male.

You stated an absolute. you keep proving my point. You keep saying "he has male DNA, he IS male" That is statement of an absolute. There is no word that implies "most of the time" and thusly, you are wrong. Because absolutes do not exist in nature.

And no, you don't have to believe me, but this is a discussion, and so as my part in the discussion, I am trying to persuade you.

I think that's probably what's pissing certain people off the most. How dare they spend ''OUR" (re: taxpayer's, even in another country) money to be happy?

exactly. that money has better uses that to make a delusional child even more delusional.

yes. i am absurd. now that we have that out of the way, who are you to say that my beliefs are wrong?

Good point here. This poster is clearly not interested in varying his/her beliefs, doesn't want facts, and is intent only on maintaining his/her bigotry.

Sounds like the appropriate time to ignore someone who argues based soley on 'belief'...that line has frankly been exhausted in terms of its usefulness.

the human brain does't stop developing until the age of 21. HE is delusional.
No, 21 is the age when Americans are allowed to buy beer. The human brain continues developing and changing throughout our entire lifespan.

Or, in some cases, never develops in the first place...

She (the original one) for a boy having a swop is actually now quite attractive lol

yes. i am absurd. now that we have that out of the way, who are you to say that my beliefs are wrong?

A sane, rational person. That's who.

Good point here. This poster is clearly not interested in varying his/her beliefs, doesn't want facts, and is intent only on maintaining his/her bigotry.

Sounds like the appropriate time to ignore someone who argues based soley on 'belief'...that line has frankly been exhausted in terms of its usefulness.

i agree. you won't change my mind, i won't change yours.

not realy. you still googled it. regardless of how technical the article is, unless a doctor ar some othe authourity wrote it, and backed up the statements with fact, i don't have to believe it.

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/60/67145.htm

Reviewed by the doctors at The Cleveland Clinic Department of Psychiatry and Psychology.
Medically reviewed by Cynthia Haines, MD, WebMD, July 2005.

I think that's probably what's pissing certain people off the most. How dare they spend ''OUR" (re: taxpayer's, even in another country) money to be happy?
I don't mind my share of the health care system being spent on her that way. Especially not if it helps a young person become and stay (mentally) healthy!

I for one wish the girl all the best and a happy future!

I think the decision that the child and the family made is soley upon them, but I dont think that the tax payers should have to pay for it. There a people all over the world who think they are in the wrong body, but they have to pay for that decision on there on. That money could have went to a homless family or to give someone an education. I just dont think tax payers should have paid for that. Thats just a scandal.

I went to high school with that girl, as a matter of fact. She might have gone her entire life without knowing she had XY chromosomes, except for an unrelated medical issue that led to her finding out about it after some tests were run. She was, and remains, a girl. She simply has XY chromosomes.

Exactly.

Unfortunately some people are just far too scared of a threat to their own perception of their gender forcing them to re-evaluate themselves that they will defend the XY = Male, XX = Female system to the death, regardless of the weight of evidence against them...

yes. i am absurd. now that we have that out of the way, who are you to say that my beliefs are wrong?

Generally, where a belief is (a)intuitively illogical when applied to practical cases, and (b) formulated with a pitiful degree of knowledge on the topic, generally, yes that belief tends to be wrong.

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/60/67145.htm

Reviewed by the doctors at The Cleveland Clinic Department of Psychiatry and Psychology.
Medically reviewed by Cynthia Haines, MD, WebMD, July 2005.

Yeah, I already posted two links, one from the NHS and another from a department of the John Hopkins University, and he's ignored them so far, so I'm not so optimistic of him actually living up to what he says in his post.

No, 21 is the age when Americans are allowed to buy beer. The human brain continues developing and changing throughout our entire lifespan.

Or, in some cases, never develops in the first place...

please don't confuse brain development with adhering to your beliefs.

i agree. you won't change my mind, i won't change yours.

Well, since that is the extent of your possible contribution to the thread...bye now. Let the grownups continue the discussion.

Yeah, I already posted two links, one from the NHS and another from a department of the John Hopkins University, and he's ignored them so far, so I'm not so optimistic of him actually living up to what he says in his post.

if the other one was the enotes link, then i'v read both. if not, i missed it.

if the other one was the enotes link, then i'v read both. if not, i missed it.

No, it was this post:

If you don't want to believe that one you could believe these:
http://uuhsc.utah.edu/healthinfo/adult/men/infertil.htm
http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=525&PrintPage=1

Yeah, I already posted two links, one from the NHS and another from a department of the John Hopkins University, and he's ignored them so far, so I'm not so optimistic of him actually living up to what he says in his post.

only theories were offered. i'll stick to mine.

Yeah, I already posted two links, one from the NHS and another from a department of the John Hopkins University, and he's ignored them so far, so I'm not so optimistic of him actually living up to what he says in his post.

I have been trying to avoid the topic, I have enough stress over this issue at home anyway. I am working on getting a situation where my nephew can live with me.

only theories were offered. i'll stick to mine.

No statements of medical fact by qualified authorities were offered. You can stick to your belief if you wish, but to steadfastly stick to something that is demonstrably false, even when presented with evidence, is a sign of foolishness.

No, it was this post:

well these do offer some interesting ideas. still, i don't agree with them.

I have been trying to avoid the topic, I have enough stress over this issue at home anyway. I am working on getting a situation where my nephew can live with me.

Good of you to try and help him out :)

I think the decision that the child and the family made is soley upon them, but I dont think that the tax payers should have to pay for it. There a people all over the world who think they are in the wrong body, but they have to pay for that decision on there on. That money could have went to a homless family or to give someone an education. I just dont think tax payers should have paid for that. Thats just a scandal.
Thanks for paying attention. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]

It's not the tax payer who paid for it but the family's health insurance.

And the real scandal would've been to deny the child the therapy it apparently needed.

well these do offer some interesting ideas. still, i don't agree with them.

They're not "theories" they're statements of medical fact by qualified, and reputable, authorities.

No statements of medical fact by qualified authorities were offered. You can stick to your belief if you wish, but to steadfastly stick to something that is demonstrably false, even when presented with evidence, is a sign of foolishness.

if you read the article you posted, then you will notice that it states, "The exact cause of gender identity disorder is not known, but several theories exist. These theories suggest that the disorder may be caused by genetic (chromosomal) abnormalities, hormone imbalances during fetal and childhood development, defects in normal human bonding and child rearing, or a combination of these factors"

Interesting you brought this up Nadkor...just wanted to update that my brother is finally going as female the bulk of the time. I was referring to her as 'he' for quite a while because she said she wasn't quite ready to have that changed, but she's coming back to town and that was the first thing she asked of me. *does a happy dance*

So yay! My sis is coming to town :D

well these do offer some interesting ideas. still, i don't agree with them.

You refute facts with facts. You don't pretend to refute facts with beliefs you are unable to back up.

Good of you to try and help him out :)

well, his parents aren't helping any. I am really getting tired of idiots who think they can force people to be what they want them to be when it's just not going to happen.

I still don't know much about the whole thing, but I don't really see a problem with giving the kid some space.....I mean what do they think they are going to achieve?[/mini rant]

if you read the article you posted, then you will notice that it states, "The exact cause of gender identity disorder is not known, but several theories exist. These theories suggest that the disorder may be caused by genetic (chromosomal) abnormalities, hormone imbalances during fetal and childhood development, defects in normal human bonding and child rearing, or a combination of these factors"

Fantastic, but you will be well aware that they were posted in relation to XX Male Syndrome, which was talked about in the enotes page Jordaxia posted, to our earlier discussion on chromosomes and gender, and to your continues insistence that chromosomes decide everything.

Fantastic, but you will be well aware that they were posted in relation to XX Male Syndrome, which was talked about in the enotes page Jordaxia posted, to our earlier discussion on chromosomes and gender, and to your continues insistence that chromosomes decide everything.

again, those were just theories. my theory is as valid as yours.

again, those were just theories. my theory is as valid as yours.

Hardly. Your 'theory' is manifestly uninformed. Simply holding a belief does not, in and of itself, make that belief as valid as any other belief.

Interesting you brought this up Nadkor...just wanted to update that my brother is finally going as female the bulk of the time. I was referring to her as 'he' for quite a while because she said she wasn't quite ready to have that changed, but she's coming back to town and that was the first thing she asked of me. *does a happy dance*

So yay! My sis is coming to town :D

That's great :D

Hardly. Your 'theory' is manifestly uninformed. Simply holding a belief does not, in and of itself, make that belief as valid as any other belief.

unless the subject is proven without a shadow of a doubt, then any beleif is valid.

again, those were just theories. my theory is as valid as yours.

XX Male syndrome is a theory?

Your "theory" is not valid until you can back it up with medical evidence from qualified and well regarded authorities. Anything else and it's just bullshit made up by some guy having trouble coming to terms with the XX/XY system he's built his entire identity upon being false.

That's great :D

Yeah, I'm all excited:) She'll be staying with me for a while.

Gender reassignment CANNOT be considered cosmetic. It goes to fundamental beliefs in one's own gender. Tim did not seek assistance because he didn't like his nose or he fancied a quick tummy tuck - he questionned his entire gender.

With regards to the tax payer's money being used, of course it should. Kim's parents are tax payers and their child was in need of medical treatment and was rightfully granted it. There are plenty of things paid for by tax payers money that I do not agree with for example treating cancer patients who refuse to quit smoking. Money down the drain some would say.

As for chosing the name Kim, it seems somewhat better than Angel Paris-Jordan ( god love the UK )/

I hope Kim has a great future ahead of her - she looks great!

No, 21 is the age when Americans are allowed to buy beer. The human brain continues developing and changing throughout our entire lifespan.
Or, in some cases, never develops in the first place...
Hehehe. :D
Interesting you brought this up Nadkor...just wanted to update that my brother is finally going as female the bulk of the time. I was referring to her as 'he' for quite a while because she said she wasn't quite ready to have that changed, but she's coming back to town and that was the first thing she asked of me. *does a happy dance*
So yay! My sis is coming to town :D
Good to hear that! I can already picture you two going on a shopping spree. :p

XX Male syndrome is a theory?

Your "theory" is not valid until you can back it up with medical evidence from qualified and well regarded authorities. Anything else and it's just bullshit made up by some guy having trouble coming to terms with the XX/XY system he's built his entire identity upon being false.

the syndrome itself is not the theory. the causes of it are. females having xx chromosomes can think that they're male all they want. it doesn't mean that it is caused by anything other than a strong desire to be the opposite sex.

Fair play to the parents and the kid - one more hottie in the world for all of us losers :D

unless the subject is proven without a shadow of a doubt, then any beleif is valid.

This isn't a criminal trial. In the real world, 'proven' is, on the balance of probabilities, with the relevant facts at hand, what is the more likely possibility? Your 'possibility' is unsupported. Valid, as a belief, but not valid as a truth. Valid, but not EQUALLY valid to a belief or position that actually has support.

well, his parents aren't helping any. I am really getting tired of idiots who think they can force people to be what they want them to be when it's just not going to happen.

I still don't know much about the whole thing, but I don't really see a problem with giving the kid some space.....I mean what do they think they are going to achieve?[/mini rant]

At least you realise that you don't know much about it and don't try to impose ill-informed ideas upon others...instead you're doing the right thing, which isn't a surprise from what I've read of you on this forum, which is a very nice change from the norm :)

Good to hear that! I can already picture you two going on a shopping spree. :p
Yeah, I get to raid the petite section, and she can (at 6'4") raid the 'plus' section...so we won't actually have to fight over any single article of clothing:D

This isn't a criminal trial. In the real world, 'proven' is, on the balance of probabilities, with the relevant facts at hand, what is the more likely possibility? Your 'possibility' is unsupported. Valid, as a belief, but not valid as a truth. Valid, but not EQUALLY valid to a belief or position that actually has support.

i have xy chromosomes. i beleive that i am male. am i wrong?

the syndrome itself is not the theory. the causes of it are. females having xx chromosomes can think that they're male all they want. it doesn't mean that it is caused by anything other than a strong desire to be the opposite sex.

What?

I think you've badly confused transsexualism with XX Male Syndrome. Seriously, please, do some reading.

true. the sex of the babie as a whole is determined by what hormone is present. i, however, was stating that the genetic disorder of xxy is not the same as being a transsexual.
the person in the original article was a boy that thought he was a girl. he had no genetic disordes. he just thought that he was a girl. his parents seemed to encourage this, so he kept on thinking this. he was confused, nothing else.

Where is the button for annoyance? Alright, let's break this down:

1. Gender and sex are not the same thing.
2. Not all cultures view gender the same.
3. In a culture which prescribes one specific gender to one specific sex, those who lie outside of the bounds of this feel, and are dealt like, outsiders.
4. As she is unable to fit into any predescribed role, the only way she will align with society views towards her is to physically change herself.

This is not anything about confusion, she honestly think that she is a girl, and should be one. Due to her culture's view, there is no other option for her to fit in with society.

So, learn something for once in your life, and stop being an ignorant tool.

unless the subject is proven without a shadow of a doubt, then any beleif is valid.
You wish.

In reality, if you want to assert that something is the case, then the burden of proof is on you. If I want to claim that you are actually a magical fairy who is cleverly disguising yourself as a human being, the default is not for everybody to assume that I must be right until proven otherwise. And you'd better be goddam thankful of that, because there's absolutely no way for you to prove that you're not a magical fairy pretending to be a human, and fairies don't have any legal standing anywhere in the world.

What?

I think you've badly confused transsexualism with XX Male Syndrome. Seriously, please, do some reading.

i seem to recall that transexualism is what i was originally posting on. someone else ( i forgot who) brought up xx/xy syndrome.

i have xy chromosomes. i beleive that i am male. am i wrong?

You are physically male, but your gender may not be. It's fun like that.

i have xy chromosomes. i beleive that i am male. am i wrong?
Congratulations. You've just established that you are male. Or that, at least, you claim to be male, since none of us have any means of proving it right now. None of this has the least thing to do with whether or not somebody ELSE is male.

i have xy chromosomes. i beleive that i am male. am i wrong?

Do you know for sure that you have XY chromosomes?

Otherwise it's still a "valid theory" that you have female chromosomes, despite what you believe. And, as you've made so clear to us, this would automatically make you female.

You wish.

In reality, if you want to assert that something is the case, then the burden of proof is on you. If I want to claim that you are a actually a magical fairy who is cleverly disguising yourself as a human being, the default is not for everybody to assume that I must be right until proven otherwise. And you'd better be goddam thankful of that, because there's absolutely no way for you to prove that you're not a magical fairy pretending to be a human, and fairies don't have any legal standing anywhere in the world.

you got me. i am a magical fairy pretending to be human. as you stated, i have no legal standing anywhere. it's a good thing no one but the people on this thread know.

Do you know for sure that you have XY chromosomes?

Otherwise it's still a "valid theory" that you have female chromosomes, despite what you believe. And, as you've made so clear to us, this would automatically make you female.

yes i do. i had tests done as a child.

i seem to recall that transexualism is what i was originally posting on. someone else ( i forgot who) brought up xx/xy syndrome.

Yes, it was, but the conversation has moved on from straight transsexualism, and moved into other areas of transgenderism, such as XX Male Syndrome, after you said that you wouldn't believe it until you were given a more reputable source. More reputable sources were then provided, yet you still insisted you wouldn't believe it, and it's carried on from there.

Do try to keep up.

You are physically male, but your gender may not be. It's fun like that.

gender is determined by chromosomes, and as i stated mine are xy.

yes i do. i had tests done as a child.

Of course you did....

Yes, it was, but the conversation has moved on from straight transsexualism, and moved into other areas of transgenderism, such as XX Male Syndrome, after you said that you wouldn't believe it until you were given a more reputable source. More reputable sources were then provided, yet you still insisted you wouldn't believe it, and it's carried on from there.

Do try to keep up.

you (or someone else) told me i had transgenderism and xx syndrome confused. now you say that xx syndrome is a part of it. which is it?

gender is determined by chromosomes, and as i stated mine are xy.

No, sex is, usually (except in those with certain syndromes), determined by chromosomes. Gender is a psychological thing.

Like I've already said; please do some reading or, at the very least, learn the basic definitions of words.

gender is determined by chromosomes, and as i stated mine are xy.

How much proof will you require before you will drop the "gender is determined by chromosones" nonsense. If you meant "sex" you have a case, but providing that wasn't a typo ":rolleyes:" is the only response left to give

you (or someone else) told me i had transgenderism and xx syndrome confused. now you say that xx syndrome is a part of it. which is it?

Neither. I said you had transsexualism and XX Male Syndrome confused.

Not transgenderism; both could be considered part of transgenderism.

Like I said, do try to keep up.

No, sex is, usually (except in those with certain syndromes), determined by chromosomes. Gender is a psychological thing.

Like I've already said; please do some reading or, at the very least, learn the basic definitions of words.

gender refers to the sexual distinction between male and female.

Of course you did....
I know that I, for one, am strongly inclined to take the word of individuals who self-identify as magical fairies.

Yeah, I get to raid the petite section, and she can (at 6'4") raid the 'plus' section...so we won't actually have to fight over any single article of clothing:D
Oh. :( So much for trading clothes. :D
Hope you enjoy her stay and have fun! *pictures you in something petite* *dreams* *drools* Sorry... Bad boy syndrome... :P

I know that I, for one, am strongly inclined to take the word of individuals who self-identify as magical fairies.

then i guess my job is done, eh.

gender refers to the sexual distinction between male and female.

Incorrect. Look it up in a reputable dictionary, and contrast it with "sex".

Neither. I said you had transsexualism and XX Male Syndrome confused.

Not transgenderism; both could be considered part of transgenderism.

Like I said, do try to keep up.

whats the difference then?

Incorrect. Look it up in a reputable dictionary, and contrast it with "sex".

websters isn't reputable?

gender is determined by chromosomes, and as i stated mine are xy.

Nope. Gender is a cultural construction, varying from culture to culture. Some cultures view as many as a dozen or so genders, where as only a few view two genders.

For instance, various native American groups have completely different Genders for "Man", "Homosexual Man", "Man who dresses like women, but is heterosexual", etc and so forth. They are seen as completely and totally seperate genders, and not simply as extensions of "man"(The only way to explain them in Western cultural terms is to use treat it as such).

So, really, you willing to admit you don't know what you are talking about yet?