NationStates Jolt Archive

The Virginia lawmaker who caused an uproar this month by questioning the need for a state apology for slavery proposed a measure to commemorate the freeing of the last U.S. slaves in June 1865.

Del. Frank D. Hargrove Sr. (R-Hanover County) inflamed the House of Delegates by saying that blacks should "get over" slavery and that apologizing for slavery was no more necessary than asking Jews to apologize for "killing Christ." He offered the resolution in part to reach out to those he offended, he said.

Black lawmakers said they are happy to support Hargrove's resolution to celebrate Juneteenth, but not if it is meant to replace theirs, which calls for Virginia to apologize for its role in slavery. The resolution is intended to coincide with the celebration of the 400th anniversary of the English settlement of Jamestown, where slaves first arrived in 1619.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/27/AR2007012701308.html?sub=AR

I was having a "discussion" about this with my boyfriend last night, about whether what this guy said was racist/antisemitist, and whether the state of Virginia should issue an official apology for slavery. He said that:
1) the guy is right, it's basically the same thing because nobody alive now had anything to do with slavery or Jesus Christ,
2) issuing an apology won't change anybody's daily lives and will only cost the taxpayers money and waste the government's time, and
3) could cause some of the white constituents in the state to become angry and take it out on the black constituents.

I said that:
1) it is a bigoted statement overall because it is coming from a white man who unofficially wields power over blacks just by virtue of being white,
2) the comparison of slavery to the killing of Christ is outrageous because slavery happened fairly recently in the scheme of things and is well-documented and directly led to us living with the descendants of slavery who are angry about what happened to their family, while "jews killing Christ" basically amounts to religious myth and has not led to jews being in a position of power to oppress christians in this country, and
3) issuing an official apology is a show of good faith to his black constituents, and sends a message that they realize slavery was wrong and that it will not happen again and that they do not condone acts of predjudice to occur now, and it would cost a negligible amount of money or time considering that the black community feels that it is important and doing so would show them that the state of Virginia cares about them and is invested in doing right by them now.

What do you think?

Jews as a collective unit didn't kill Jesus. Society as a whole in the slave states, however, kept slavery legal and acceptable.

As for the apology, since slavery's legacy persists to this day, an apology is indeed justified and necessary.

thats like getting water out of a rock

thats like getting water out of a rock

What is?

I agree, to a point, with your boyfriend, though I don't think the analogy is quite right.

Why should we apologise? What have I done to any black/white/hispanic/insert race of choice here, at any point that requires me to apologise.
Apologising for something that hasn't existed for over 100 years won't change anything. Were it 1 or 2 generations down the line then yes, apologise. But as none of these people have been enslaved there is nothing to apologise to them for.

What is?

getting a official apology

I'm not racist and I say "fuck slavery." You wern't a slave, your grandma may have been a slave, but you know what? It's fucking over. The Civil Rights movement is over, there is no more Jim Crow or lynching. The only thing left is personal racism and going around pissing and moaning about slavery and discrimination and demanding apologies from everyone isn't going to teach anyone tolerance any time soon.

Why should we apologise? What have I done to any black/white/hispanic/insert race of choice here, at any point that requires me to apologise.

You? Nothing (or at least nothing I know of.)

The Virginia Government? A hell of a lot.

I'm not racist and I say "fuck slavery." You wern't a slave, your grandma may have been a slave, but you know what? It's fucking over. The Civil Rights movement is over, there is no more Jim Crow or lynching.

And if you believe the consequences of those things are just going to evaporate because most white people prefer not to think about them, you're dead wrong.

My argument is that you can argue whether or not it's logical, and I am not convinced that an official apology is entirely logical. However, you can't logic away the way that people feel, and it's a fairly small gesture to give to show the black voters in Virginia that their state government cares about them. I mean, we're not talking about reparations or affirmative action or anything, just an official apology. "We know slavery was wrong, and we're sorry it happened." That's it! Seems like a small price to pay, and it looks a lot worse to NOT do it.

He does know that the overwhelming majority of Virginians didn't own slaves, right? In fact, that was the whole reason why West Virginia seceded from the Confederacy in 1863 to begin with; they didn't want to waste their time, money, or men fighting for a bunch of elite plantation lords who wanted to keep their slaves.

Even so, slavery is over. No one alive today, or even their parents or grandparents, were slaves and it's time for us to move on and put that behind us. Dwelling on it is pointless and does nothing but make it harder for black Americans to integrate themselves in to society. It creates a victim complex that hurts far more than it helps, and it's time to put it behind us and let it go. We would make a lot more progress dealing with the problems today than constantly trying to blame it on slavery and doing nothing.

I agree with your beau on points 1 and 2, but with you on point 3.

You? Nothing (or at least nothing I know of.)

The Virginia Government? A hell of a lot.

The former Government of Virginia. They aren't the same people and a lot has happened since. It's the same irrational problems within that idea that stop governments working with each other.
Would an apology change anything. No. If it did, then it might be worth it, but as it doesn't it would be a waste of government time and money.

1) it is a bigoted statement overall because it is coming from a white man who unofficially wields power over blacks just by virtue of being white,

You mean by virtue of being elected? This isn't Jim Crow anymore, black people get elected to government offices to, you know.

As for the general topic, I find it a waste of time and money to placate aggreived minority groups, especially for a wrong that was committed over a hundred years ago.

Let them fume.

And if you believe the consequences of those things are just going to evaporate because most white people prefer not to think about them, you're dead wrong.
No, consequences of those things arn't going to go away as long as the black leaders expect the race to be coddled and put on a pedestal because of what happened in the past. There is a difference between remembering to learn and bringing it up over and over to "teach a lesson."

If you get an F in school and your parents keep hammering you over and over to study harder because you got an F, are you going to study harder or just resent your parents for not getting the fuck off your back?

You mean by virtue of being elected? This isn't Jim Crow anymore, black people get elected to government offices to, you know.

As for the general topic, I find it a waste of time and money to placate aggreived minority groups, especially for a wrong that was committed over a hundred years ago.

Let them fume.

No, I'm talking about the actual guy who said it. Whether he is elected or not, he still happens to be white. I'm not even sure that white people even have a right to argue about this, since we don't know what it's like to be a descendant of slaves.

to be honest if my grandfather had dragged every slave from a utopia on the way exterminating millions of people whilst stealing land from whatever passed his way I would never think for a second to apologise

Yes bad things happen if you expect a thing from me because of it you have another thing coming

oooh rantalicious

I am seeing a lot more text replies than poll replies. Please, I'd like some vague statistic about how people on NS feel about this issue.

No, I'm talking about the actual guy who said it. Whether he is elected or not, he still happens to be white. I'm not even sure that white people even have a right to argue about this, since we don't know what it's like to be a descendant of slaves.

Erm... that's not true. What about the descendents of the people who fought in the British Civil War who were sent to Barbados as slaves never to see their homes again. Or what about those white people who were captured onboard their ships and sent to the Ivory Coast to be slaves to the Blacks there, should they demand an apology? It's not just the blacks who were slaves and all thise does is make people believe that they were.

He does know that the overwhelming majority of Virginians didn't own slaves, right?

So? The Virginia Government permitted slavery; that's plenty of reason for an apology.

In fact, that was the whole reason why West Virginia seceded from the Confederacy in 1863 to begin with; they didn't want to waste their time, money, or men fighting for a bunch of elite plantation lords who wanted to keep their slaves.

This is Virginia, not West Virginia.

Even so, slavery is [over. No one alive today, or even their parents or grandparents, were slaves

The legal legacy of slavery lasted well into the 1960s... the consequences of that, and of several centuries of racial subordination of which slavery played a crucial part, remain major factors in our society.

and it's time for us to move on and put that behind us.

How convenient.

Dwelling on it is pointless

Except insofar as it recognizes the human dignity of people who have been oppressed, instead of writing it off as irrelevant, or excusable... and insofar as it's part of honestly coming to terms with the United States' history of racism and beginning to seriously repair the legacy of that.

and does nothing but make it harder for black Americans to integrate themselves in to society.

How does it do that?

It creates a victim complex that hurts far more than it helps

No, it creates honest recognition of truth, and builds a commitment to doing something about it.

Surprisingly enough, problems do not solve themselves.

No, I'm talking about the actual guy who said it. Whether he is elected or not, he still happens to be white. I'm not even sure that white people even have a right to argue about this, since we don't know what it's like to be a descendant of slaves.

Well, then it shouldn't even be considered. A decision that doesn't involve all parties is not something that a democratically-elected government should be considering. White voters are equally allowed to voice their opinion on issues as black voters.

At the same time, we're also not slave owners. I have absolutely no guilt about slavery because I'm not a slave owner, my parents aren't, my grandparents aren't, and all of my ancestors in Poland and Germany aren't. Hell, most of my family came from countries that didn't even participate in the slave trade to begin with.

No neither the Virginians nor the the state government of Virginia needs to apologize for something that happened almost a century and a half ago. To me, it seems even if they were to apologize that that would not be enough. When will this "feeling sorry for yourselves" ever end? Are we not able to move on? The Civil Rights movements has made tremendous strides in the last century and I'm sure Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. would agree that the time to move on was generations ago.

I'm not a racist person but come on now. It seems that the white population will be crucified for what happened a long time ago for centuries to come. I think the time to move is Now.

Erm... that's not true. What about the descendents of the people who fought in the British Civil War who were sent to the US as slaves never to see their homes again.

Please don’t rape history especially if its mine

Erm... that's not true. What about the descendents of the people who fought in the British Civil War who were sent to the US as slaves never to see their homes again. Or what about those white people who were captured onboard their ships and sent to the Ivory Coast to be slaves to the Blacks there, should they demand an apology? It's not just the blacks who were slaves and all thise does is make people believe that they were.

Wtf are you talking about?

I am seeing a lot more text replies than poll replies.

I don't even know what your poll options mean.

No neither the Virginians nor the the state government of Virginia needs to apologize for something that happened almost a century and a half ago. To me, it seems even if they were to apologize that that would not be enough. When will this "feeling sorry for yourselves" ever end? Are we not able to move on? The Civil Rights movements has made tremendous strides in the last century and I'm sure Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. would agree that the time to move on was generations ago.

I'm not a racist person but come on now. It seems that the white population will be crucified for what happened a long time ago for centuries to come. I think the time to move is Now.

Oh, "crucified." Very appropriate for this thread. :P

I can't believe you're presuming to speak for Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. For crying out loud, he's dead because a white guy shot him!

Surprisingly enough, problems do not solve themselves.

what about the integration of blacks into the community yes more blacks live in poverty but its changing by itself perfectly well

As such problems do solve themselves

I don't even know what your poll options mean.

I think you'll need to read my first post, it pretty much describes my views vs. my boyfriend's views on the issue as extrapolated from a big argument we had last night about it.

The former Government of Virginia. They aren't the same people and a lot has happened since.

So? Corporations, governments, and other institutions change leadership all the time. They can still be held accountable for their actions.

it would be a waste of government time and money.

What monetary expenditure is involved here?

No, consequences of those things arn't going to go away as long as the black leaders expect the race to be coddled and put on a pedestal because of what happened in the past.

No one is talking about "coddl[ing]."

If you get an F in school and your parents keep hammering you over and over to study harder because you got an F, are you going to study harder or just resent your parents for not getting the fuck off your back?

Probably both.

But the more relevant case here would be if I repeatedly committed an abominable crime, and then was coerced into stopping, at which point I obscured the past and tacitly judged my actions to be acceptable, and began to commit somewhat less abominable crimes, until finally I was forced to stop those too, at which point I just pretended the whole thing hadn't happened... and refused to admit any wrongdoing because it was all so long ago.

Jews should apologize for the rotten trash they put in the Torah (and still hold true). No slavery could ever be as bad as the consequences that came from Jewish teachings, including the atrocities committed by religious directions based on those teachings.
And while slavery is already abolished (but indeed should be apologized for, at least symbolically), the stupid teachings out of the Torah and other biblical writings still poison humankind.

No, I'm talking about the actual guy who said it. Whether he is elected or not, he still happens to be white. I'm not even sure that white people even have a right to argue about this, since we don't know what it's like to be a descendant of slaves.

Saying that we don't have a right to an opinion on this is like saying that you don't have a right to an opinion on the Iraq War unless you got a family member in Iraq.

Of course you have a right to argue about it!

Me, I don't see the justice for apologizing something my ancestors might have done. We should acknowledge that it was wrong and horrible, but I refuse to apologize for something that I didn't do. Simple as that.

I think you'll need to read my first post, it pretty much describes my views vs. my boyfriend's views on the issue as extrapolated from a big argument we had last night about it.

You're wrong. Strom Thurmond is dead, the state apologizing isn't going to help anything. All this restitution for slavery shit can only serve to fuel racism, read my last post.

Gah! The "Jews killed Christ" thing reminds me SO MUCH of that despiccable Mel Gibson movie.
That part alone would merit an uproar over his remarks.

Otherwise, I very much agree with you.

The idea of Representative A apologising to Group B for something group B has never experienced nor has representative A ever had a hand in (direct or indirect) just pisses me off. It doesn't help anyone in anyway.

Yes, slavery has an impact on equality in the USA, but let's tackle the issue of inequality instead of pussy footing about with apologies about slavery.

Should the state of Virginia apologise about the state of inequality in the state? No. If the state is sincerely attempting to tackle inequality then that should be enough. Apologies should be left to those who were part government when the state did not tackle inequality.

I don't think any Japanese person alive today should apologise for the Nanking massacre. However, the Japanese government should help fix any problems caused by Nanking massacre, and prevent any revisionist history books from entering schools. The same for the Germans, but with the holocaust.

Apologies just segregate communities. A holiday celebrating the end of slavery is a better idea as it pulls a community together and celebrates the social progress that has been made.

Jews should apologize for the rotten trash they put in the Torah (and still hold true). No slavery could ever be as bad as the consequences that came from Jewish teachings, including the atrocities committed by religious directions based on those teachings.

As a Jew, I take exception at this insulting comment. The Torah is the greatest moral document provided to mankind from G-d.

Just out of curiosity, would you expect Christians to apologize for the Bible. Or Muslims for the Koran?

what about the integration of blacks into the community yes more blacks live in poverty but its changing by itself perfectly well

As such problems do solve themselves

Actually it's not. Blacks get treated differently in general. Studies show that blacks still don't do as well as whites in schools (controlling for socioeconomic status, which means that this variable was taken out of the equation) and they don't get paid the same as whites in the same sorts of jobs. They get sold cars at a higher price, are steered toward certain neighborhoods and blocked out of others, and are watched VERY carefully in stores. It goes on in little insidious events every day in the United States, and you don't see it because you have the privilege of being white and you don't have to see it.

Please don’t rape history especially if its mine

Who's raping history?


In August 1649, Cromwell and 12,000 soldiers arrived in Ireland. During the next ten years of bloodshed it is estimated that about a third of the population was either killed or died of starvation. The majority of Roman Catholics who owned land had it taken away from them and were removed to the barren province of Connacht. Catholic boys and girls were shipped to Barbados and sold to the planters as slaves.
or perhaps:

The slaves included not only Africans but men arrested after a Royalist uprising in the West Country in 1655, and Irish Catholics captured by Oliver Cromwell.

So, my apologies. It should've been Barbados...:rolleyes:

In regards the White Slaves, I recommend you read :White Slaves, African Masters. It's a very interesting paper, though I think you have to pay for it online to get it.

what about the integration of blacks into the community yes more blacks live in poverty but its changing by itself perfectly well

Actually, no, integration is not proceeding "perfectly well"... de facto segregation remains rife throughout the country.

And, no, the progress that has been achieved certainly did not happen "by itself" - it happened thanks to the reforms forced through by the mass action of the Civil Rights Movement, including affirmative action and anti-employment discrimination provisions.

Jews should apologize for the rotten trash they put in the Torah (and still hold true). No slavery could ever be as bad as the consequences that came from Jewish teachings, including the atrocities committed by religious directions based on those teachings.
And while slavery is already abolished (but indeed should be apologized for, at least symbolically), the stupid teachings out of the Torah and other biblical writings still poison humankind.

Whoa, whoa. That is not the issue and I believe that sort of talk can get you warned by mods. Not to mention it is personally offensive to me.

I think the idea of the apology is great, but it's a waste of tax money making a holiday out of it. Hell, I have many friends that are black, and even they think it's a bad idea. Many people have gotten over it, let's not let the rest of society hold back. I think this year's Super Bowl coaches prove my point.

I'm sure Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. would agree that the time to move on was generations ago.

I'm sure he wouldn't.

After all, he repeatedly said that racial equality required a whole lot more than mere legal equality, and that the legacy of centuries of slavery and legal subordination would not be overcome simply through desegregation... but why let actual troublesome facts get in the way of a convenient propaganda line?

:rolleyes:

Oh, "crucified." Very appropriate for this thread. :P

I thought so.

I can't believe you're presuming to speak for Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. For crying out loud, he's dead because a white guy shot him!

It's only my opinion, get over it...

The point is the Civil War ended 141 years ago...It shouldn't be forgotten but it shouldn't be dwelled on...The Civil Rights movement has made tremendous strides and by some people's refusal to stop living in the past is down right ridiculous. People are beginning to get fed up with this "feel sorry for us" attitude.

Yes, the white man bought black slaves from a lot of black and white people. American white men fought a civil war for numerous reasons and one of those reasons was to free the black slaves. Your Welcome.

Actually, no, integration is not proceeding "perfectly well"... de facto segregation remains rife throughout the country.

The races tend to gravitate towards people of their own race. If you think the black people or hispanic people arn't as racist or more than your average redneck (in fact they are more so except in the boonies where the white people arn't looked down on for being outwardly racist), you have obviously only talked to those that only hang around with white people or are of rich families. People segregate themselves, "de facto segregation" is a crock of shit. It's like complaining the geeks hang out with geeks and cheerleaders and jocks hang out together.

SNIP

so the big problem is blacks are poor hmmm good news everyone black people are climbing the social ladder (however slow that is the U.S) and the fact that I’m white doesn’t mean shit I’m a teen so are most of the people on this forum but do I get all pissy over some guy generalising me? no

In August 1649, Cromwell and 12,000 soldiers arrived in Ireland. During the next ten years of bloodshed it is estimated that about a third of the population was either killed or died of starvation. The majority of Roman Catholics who owned land had it taken away from them and were removed to the barren province of Connacht. Catholic boys and girls were shipped to Barbados and sold to the planters as slaves.

1) that has ? To do with the English civil war
2) Irish Catholics (and criminals in general*) where moved in a system of transportation there where not just rounded up and sent away

*don't read that the wrong way its not a statement about the Irish

The slaves included not only Africans but men arrested after a Royalist uprising in the West Country in 1655, and Irish Catholics captured by Oliver Cromwell.

Source?

Actually, no, integration is not proceeding "perfectly well"... de facto segregation remains rife throughout the country.

That isn’t to do with slavery that’s to do with the poor being stuck in poverty its just now you can see it because the poor tend to be marked with a different skin colour

And, no, the progress that has been achieved certainly did not happen "by itself" - it happened thanks to the reforms forced through by the mass action of the Civil Rights Movement, including affirmative action and anti-employment discrimination provisions.

Anti-employment provisions haven’t worked there are still sting operations going on that catch employers out, what has worked is employers have discovered that black people can be hard working normal guys that’s how society changes and that’s how it should change not with a fist

And I don’t know where to begin with affirmative action maybe the fact that its racism in itself

Source?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6185756.stm

No one is alive that was a slave. They should apologize for segregation instead.

No apology should be given. Why should we now who have caused no harm to the black community, apologize for what our great-grandfathers and before them did. It was legal then making it perfectly acceptable at that time. Now it is an abomination but that is the reason why it doesn't happen now.

Jews as a collective unit didn't kill Jesus. Society as a whole in the slave states, however, kept slavery legal and acceptable. US did NOT enslave as a collective unit.
legal??? yes It was. (it was legal and today its a crime)

Was Crucification legal and acceptable for the Jews?? It was acceptable.. I you believe the writings saying the Jews (and the Jew leaders) were demanding Jesus Crucification. (it was legal+acceptable and today its a Crime)

No one is alive that was a slave. They should apologize for segregation instead.well.

I hereby apologize to Africa and the blacks (as a white Human being and as one white US citizen.. for the slavery and the Segregation).

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Let's assume all the southern states (including VA) made an official apology. They interrupted a primetime show at 8-o-clock at night on Fox, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, and FoxNews so they could stand at a podium, one at a time, and say "We're sorry. Slavery was bad, and we acknowledge it." - at the end of it all, what changes? Nothing. Not a damn thing. They never said slavery was GOOD in the first place, so there's nothing to really apologize for.

While I'm a leftist baby-eating liberal who usually sides for the little guy, I've always thought Affirmative Action to be counterproductive. If you can't get the job through experience and talent, you don't deserve it any more or less than a white guy who can't get it either, so why would you deserve it more than a white guy who -does- have the experience and talent? I think race should be taken out of the process altogether, creating a completely flat playing field on which everyone has an equal chance and race is ineffective in gaining or losing chance to be hired.

So if they stand there and waste an hour of everyone's time on TV, most of which people won't watch, including black people, nothing will change. Black colleges won't suddenly become as prestigious as white colleges, racial statistics won't suddenly show that there are exactly as many white criminals as there are black criminals, the ghettos won't suddenly stop being infested with crime and poverty, and nobody will feel better about the fact that slavery still happened regardless of who did it or who apologized for it.

If we did something productive, like actually targeting the problems black people face, as opposed to apologizing for the problems they -used- to face, then maybe we'd get somewhere and things would get better.

If we did something productive, like actually targeting the problems black people face, as opposed to apologizing for the problems they -used- to face, then maybe we'd get somewhere and things would get better.

Agreed. Addressing racial inequalities in education and eliminating what I term "learned hopelessness" in African-American culture would be far more beneficial than a farce of an apology. Instead of making symbolic gestures, we should work for substantive change.

Personally I believe that the very idea of having to apologize for something that you had no part in is ridiculous, particularly when the person or persons you are apologizing to had no part in the situation either. No one in the state of Virginia owns a slave, and no one in the state of Virginia is a slave. I’ll admit I’m rusty on my dates but wasn’t slavery as a practice abolished in like the 1860’s? That would put the last slave holders roughly five or six generations back, which effectively means that I don’t own slaves, my father didn’t own slaves, my grandfather didn’t own slaves, my great grandfather didn’t own slaves, my great great grandfather didn’t own slaves, and my great great great grandfather didn’t own slaves either. So if some guy is convinced that the reason his life sucks is because my great great great great grandfather owned slaves (which he didn’t, because I’m pretty sure my family hadn’t even immigrated to the US that far back), how is that my fault?

On that note, the Dictatorship of Brian S Moe would hereby like to formally issue an apology for the bubonic plague, the Mongolian invasion, and the extinction of the dinosaurs.*

*All events have been historically proven to have nothing to do with any member of the governing body that hasn’t been dead for at least a few hundred years.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Let's assume all the southern states (including VA) made an official apology.
at the end of it all, what changes? Nothing. Not a damn thing.
(...snip)
So if they stand there and waste an hour of everyone's time on TV, most of which people won't watch, including black people, nothing will change. Black colleges won't suddenly become as prestigious as white colleges, racial statistics won't suddenly show that there are exactly as many white criminals as there are black criminals, the ghettos won't suddenly stop being infested with crime and poverty, and nobody will feel better about the fact that slavery still happened regardless of who did it or who apologized for it.Nope.. apologizing does not change back time.. (only superman can)..

apologizing never has.. never will.

Interesting, looks like the thread responses are at odds with the poll responses. Please respond to the poll as well!

No, I'm talking about the actual guy who said it. Whether he is elected or not, he still happens to be white. I'm not even sure that white people even have a right to argue about this, since we don't know what it's like to be a descendant of slaves.

Maybe you need to brush up on the "History of slavery"...

As Rome expanded outward, entire populations were enslaved, thus creating an ample supply. The people subjected to Roman Slavery came from all over Europe and the Mediterranean...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

When Rome was expanding did he only invade and enslave the Black populations? I think not.

How about the Vikings? They also enslaved those who were conquered. Fact is throughout ALL of history there were probably far greater numbers of white slaves compared to the USA slaves of close to a century and a half ago.

Let's not forget the 19th Century rolling into the 20th Century in Europe who had the "white" girls as sex slaves or do they not count?

The list goes on and on and on... So what makes the "Black" slaves more important than the forgotten "white" slaves?

My point is is the fact that "blacks" and Africans were not the only slaves in the History of this World.

Nope.. apologizing does not change back time.. (only superman can)..

apologizing never has.. never will.

Oh really. If that is so, then why do we as individuals ask for an apology when somebody wrongs us? Why do we ask our husbands/wives/children/coworkers/friends/whoever to apologize for hurting our feelings or doing something bad to us? Yeah, if my boyfriend says something really insensitive, I will be pissed and ask him to apologize. If he apologizes and never does it again, that is what I want. YOUR point is that if he apologizes and continues to say shitty things, the apology means nothing. But I think it is worse if he refuses to apologize and says that it won't turn back time, because that is just being arrogant and hammering home his original insensitivity.

And I see that people are doing a lot of harping on the fact that nobody is alive who took part in slavery. The Virginia government is an institution, and institutions ARE held accountable for actions they perpetrated in the past. I believe the pope finally apologized on behalf of the Catholic church for silently condoning the Holocaust fairly recently, as in the last few years. We as a society must have some way of recognizing our wrongs from the past, or we are doomed to repeat them.

Maybe you need to brush up on the "History of slavery"...

As Rome expanded outward, entire populations were enslaved, thus creating an ample supply. The people subjected to Roman Slavery came from all over Europe and the Mediterranean...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

When Rome was expanding did he only invade and enslave the Black populations? I think not.

How about the Vikings? They also enslaved those who were conquered. Fact is throughout ALL of history there were probably far greater numbers of white slaves compared to the USA slaves of close to a century and a half ago.

Let's not forget the 19th Century rolling into the 20th Century in Europe who had the "white" girls as sex slaves or do they not count?

The list goes on and on and on... So what makes the "Black" slaves more important than the forgotten "white" slaves?

My point is is the fact that "blacks" and Africans were not the only slaves in the History of this World.

I am aware of that. Almost everybody has historically been the oppressed and the oppressor at some point. The black lawmakers of Virginia are not asking all whites everywhere to apologize for slavery. They are asking the state of Virginia as an institution to apologize for their role in the institution of slavery.

This whole argument seems preposterous. Apologizing will change absolutely nothing. Not apologizing, on the other hand, implies that Virginia's actions in the 1800s do not warrant an apology, which is a racist and bigoted viewpoint. I'm sure saying "sorry" won't waste too much of the taxpayers' money, nor will it squander precious time which could be better spent on making crooked deals with lobbyists. An official condemnation of the horrors inflicted upon the slaves in past centuries would be ineffectual, but welcome.

Oh really. If that is so, then why do we as individuals ask for an apology when somebody wrongs us? Why do we ask our husbands/wives/children/coworkers/friends/whoever to apologize for hurting our feelings or doing something bad to us? Yeah, if my boyfriend says something really insensitive, I will be pissed and ask him to apologize. If he apologizes and never does it again, that is what I want. YOUR point is that if he apologizes and continues to say shitty things, the apology means nothing. But I think it is worse if he refuses to apologize and says that it won't turn back time, because that is just being arrogant and hammering home his original insensitivity.

And I see that people are doing a lot of harping on the fact that nobody is alive who took part in slavery. The Virginia government is an institution, and institutions ARE held accountable for actions they perpetrated in the past. I believe the pope finally apologized on behalf of the Catholic church for silently condoning the Holocaust fairly recently, as in the last few years. We as a society must have some way of recognizing our wrongs from the past, or we are doomed to repeat them.Who "we" ?

This whole argument seems preposterous. Apologizing will change absolutely nothing. Not apologizing, on the other hand, implies that Virginia's actions in the 1800s do not warrant an apology, which is a racist and bigoted viewpoint. I'm sure saying "sorry" won't waste too much of the taxpayers' money, nor will it squander precious time which could be better spent on making crooked deals with lobbyists. An official condemnation of the horrors inflicted upon the slaves in past centuries would be ineffectual, but welcome.

My point exactly, and a lot more succint than I could have said it.

Who "we" ?

We as individual people, we as human beings who have some shred of social interest.

I am aware of that. Almost everybody has historically been the oppressed and the oppressor at some point. The black lawmakers of Virginia are not asking all whites everywhere to apologize for slavery. They are asking the state of Virginia as an institution to apologize for their role in the institution of slavery.

If you are aware of that then why did you say the following?

I'm not even sure that white people even have a right to argue about this, since we don't know what it's like to be a descendant of slaves

How about the Vikings? They also enslaved those who were conquered. Fact is throughout ALL of history there were probably far greater numbers of white slaves compared to the USA slaves of close to a century and a half ago.yes long time ago slavery was part of war.. part of conquest..
you conquer them.. you get all their gold.. and you keep some slave..
but it was done to all.. by all (I actually mean most)

the so called US slave trade or African slave trade.. was race based.

As a Jew, I take exception at this insulting comment. The Torah is the greatest moral document provided to mankind from G-d.

Just out of curiosity, would you expect Christians to apologize for the Bible. Or Muslims for the Koran?

Gah! Don't feed the troll!

I'm not even sure that white people even have a right to argue about this, since we don't know what it's like to be a descendant of slaves

Sure we do! Plenty of our ancestors surely came over here as slaves, indentured servants, or similar things. Or child laborers.

Technically the Romans crucified Christ, the Jews were just an auxiliary.

And I don't see why apologising for slavery is that necessary... I mean, come on, slavery happened years ago, we're over it, why do people keep whining about it? That's why we still have racism, and reverse racism, and all of the other utter crap people spew these days. Just get over yourselves already and get on with life, jeez. Or as Sarcasms 7:13 puts it, "Cry me a river...."

If you are aware of that then why did you say the following?

I'm not even sure that white people even have a right to argue about this, since we don't know what it's like to be a descendant of slaves

Well, I guess I was noting the sad irony of the fact that we as white people (and the government of Virginia is, admittedly, largely made up of white men) get to argue about whether or not to stoop to make a small humanitarian gesture for black people. Although I'm not sure how the two statements I made are necessarily in conflict with each other.

yes long time ago slavery was part of war.. part of conquest..
you conquer them.. you get all their gold.. and you keep some slave..
but it was done to all.. by all (I actually mean most)

the so called US slave trade or African slave trade.. was race based.

So, basicly since "slavery was part of war..part of conquest.." it's justified slavery where as "the so called US slave trade or African slave trade.. was race based" was unjustified.

Well, in that case maybe Africa needs to apologize for selling their own people for profit to the white man of the USA...yes/no?

Oh really. If that is so, then why do we as individuals ask for an apology when somebody wrongs us? Why do we ask our husbands/wives/children/coworkers/friends/whoever to apologize for hurting our feelings or doing something bad to us? Yeah, if my boyfriend says something really insensitive, I will be pissed and ask him to apologize. If he apologizes and never does it again, that is what I want. YOUR point is that if he apologizes and continues to say shitty things, the apology means nothing. But I think it is worse if he refuses to apologize and says that it won't turn back time, because that is just being arrogant and hammering home his original insensitivity.

He doesn't refuse to apologize, there's just nothing to apologize for. He had nothing to do with slavery. We ask for apologies from people we know because the thing that happened is most likely very very recent, and the person who would be apologizing is the person who actually did it, so it actually means something. Did the german car companies have to apologize for supporting the nazis back in the 1940's? Would it make any difference if the mother of the person who stole your purse apologized for what her son did, even if the son never showed remorse for it?

It's not being arrogant, it's just simply tallying up to what you're responsible for and acknowledging that slavery isn't one of those things.

And I see that people are doing a lot of harping on the fact that nobody is alive who took part in slavery. The Virginia government is an institution, and institutions ARE held accountable for actions they perpetrated in the past. I believe the pope finally apologized on behalf of the Catholic church for silently condoning the Holocaust fairly recently, as in the last few years. We as a society must have some way of recognizing our wrongs from the past, or we are doomed to repeat them.

Yes, and EVERYONE (read: 99% of people) recognizes that slavery happened, and that it was terrible. The recognition is already there, so an apology wouldn't really do anything but make it seem like that specific person apologizing for it owes the black community something, which he doesn't. The Catholic church is a single entity which is driven by a single directive and all follows the same principles put forth in the bible - it would make sense for the pope to apologize for something they did fifty years ago, because was recent, and depending on how old the pope was and which pope did it, the pope, who at the time may or may not have been the pope, could have directly played a hand in the decision.

There's a difference between a church, as a whole, condoning something fifty years ago, and a state's government (which is not a strictly aligned body of legislation, meaning people have differing opinions within that single body of legislation) condoning something a hundred and fifty years ago. The state's government which, by the way, changes leadership much more often than the Catholic church..

Sure we do! Plenty of our ancestors surely came over here as slaves, indentured servants, or similar things. Or child laborers.

If you would have read my post entirely you would know what you copied from my post/reply is not my quote but was the OP's quote...

Haven't there been any apologies for slavery before? If not then apologize once and get over it, if it has been done already then no point for apologizeing for something 15 times.

the so called US slave trade or African slave trade.. was race based.

Actually, it was economic in inception, and economic in perpetration.

Race was not an issue until AFTER they became slaves, the very connotation of a slave being less than a free human being. But to say the slave trade was motivated by a hatred of the black man is rather missing the point.

I think it's perfectly okay to expect a state (national or federal) to apologise for it's part in such things as slavery, genocide, concentration camps, torture, illegal wars, etc. That is not to say I think the decendants of the people involved should apologize, that is silly, they were not personally involved (although I recognise that they may be living off the spoils of their ancestors behaviour). However, while people die and their responsibility goes with them, states live on and so do the the social inequities and prejudices that they were built on. Of course, an apology by a state is always going to be hollow and insincere, but as a gesture it is surely worth the five minutes or so of some statesman's time and even the couple of hour's of some speach writer's.

Maybe Virginia could apologize for crucifying Christ...

The state of virginia as an institution participated in an inhumane and brutal system.

The state of virginia, as an institution, thus owes a posthumous apology by those harmed through the perpetration of that system, but as well as those who continue to suffer disadvantages today as a result of it.

I think it's perfectly okay to expect a state (national or federal) to apologise for it's part in such things as slavery, genocide, concentration camps, torture, illegal wars, etc. That is not to say I think the decendants of the people involved should apologize, that is silly, they were not personally involved (although I recognise that they may be living off the spoils of their ancestors behaviour). However, while people die and their responsibility goes with them, states live on and so do the the social inequities and prejudices that they were built on. Of course, an apology by a state is always going to be hollow and insincere, but as a gesture it is surely worth the five minutes or so of some statesman's time and even the couple of hour's of some speach writer's.

That is, fundamentally, the point. It's not Joe Smith, who happens to be a statesman, apologizing for something he didn't have a hand in.

It's the state of virginia apologizing for something it DID have a hand in, through it's mouthpiece, statesman Joe Smith.

Technically the Romans crucified Christ, the Jews were just an auxiliary.or viceversa.

Poncio was a tool..
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poncio_Pilato

or viceversa.

Poncio was a tool..
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poncio_Pilato

not only is this wildly off topic, but if you want to prove a point, provide a source readable by your audience.

Virginia should apologize for crucifying Christ.

Virginia should apologize for crucifying Christ.

pssst, you said that already.

Is it just me, or does it seem the argument over these apologies come around every year? Has any state government ever issued an apology? What about the federal government?

I'm not racist and I say "fuck slavery." You wern't a slave, your grandma may have been a slave, but you know what? It's fucking over. The Civil Rights movement is over, there is no more Jim Crow or lynching. The only thing left is personal racism and going around pissing and moaning about slavery and discrimination and demanding apologies from everyone isn't going to teach anyone tolerance any time soon.

Yeah let's just forget history, because it goes back further than one generation! What a brilliant idea. Fuck slavery, fuck the holocaust, fuck Vietnam! Hey, fuck the 9/11 - that happened like, man, a couple of YEARS ago! It's OVER! Get OVER it! Quit pissing and moaning about the PAST! And fuck the invasion of Iraq! And fuck everyone, ooh what a fucking rebel I am! Look, I'm un-PC, I'm rebelling against the warped media mind-control scheme, what a badass I am! You can tell cuz I say FUCK a lot! It affirms my badassness!

No, consequences of those things arn't going to go away as long as the black leaders expect the race to be coddled and put on a pedestal because of what happened in the past. There is a difference between remembering to learn and bringing it up over and over to "teach a lesson."

Oh well you know, a memorial to slavery is CERTAINLY "coddling the black race." Thank God for you. Also, I'm glad you've shown how life is ideallyic, there is no more racism and we can all just forget history now. Like this VA legislator. He's probably just a figment of my race-traitor's imagination.

If you get an F in school and your parents keep hammering you over and over to study harder because you got an F, are you going to study harder or just resent your parents for not getting the fuck off your back?

Well, you could always just say (to the parents and the school), FUCK THE F! Yeah, it was like YESTERDAY! It's OVER! It's irrelevant! Quit coddling me! Yeah, maybe they won't put it on your report card that way.

Where does this "jews apologizing for christ" thing come from? Jesus was a Jew himself and the entire Messiah-crap and his death as payment for the sin of Adam is completely Jewish. Christians are just a Jewish sect who believes the Messiah has already come. But basically it's the same theology. They all should apologize for fabricating a god and teaching the world that there are people of different value (which in the end is of course an excuse for slavery), but "jews apologizing for christ" is pointless.
And to drag this into a comparison with American-style slavery is just outrageous.

Is it just me, or does it seem the argument over these apologies come around every year? Has any state government ever issued an apology? What about the federal government?

in 1998 Clinton, the first sitting president to do so, spoke about recognizing the collosal damage done by slavery, and noted it as a great moral evil, however the federal government hasn't ever officially apologized for it.

Where does this "jews apologizing for christ" thing come from? Jesus was a Jew himself and the entire Messiah-crap and his death as payment for the sin of Adam is completely Jewish. Christians are just a Jewish sect who believes the Messiah has already come. But basically it's the same theology. They all should apologize for fabricating a god and teaching the world that there are people of different value (which in the end is of course an excuse for slavery), but "jews apologizing for christ" is pointless.
And to drag this into a comparison with American-style slavery is just outrageous.

absent the possibility of the whole religion being fake, if I remember right, the purpose of christ was to be crucified, because it was through that, and the ressurection, that christians gain access to heaven.

So given that the entire religion REQUIRED christ to die, shouldn't christians be....thankful to those that executed him?

not only is this wildly off topic.. id did not bring it.

my first comment is on page 4.. #48.

No neither the Virginians nor the the state government of Virginia needs to apologize for something that happened almost a century and a half ago.

I guess since it happened a century and a half ago, the state can disavow itself of it completely.

Hence, ya know, since the birth of the nation and the signing of the Constitution was over a century and a half ago, those too can be ignored.

I'm not a racist person but come on now. It seems that the white population will be crucified for what happened a long time ago for centuries to come. I think the time to move is Now.

Your martyr complex is showing. Apparently, the proposal to make a memorial = CRUCIFICATION! Jesus fucking Christ. Get a grip.

Oh, by the way, Jesus died 2000 years ago. Who cares if he was crucified. I mean I'm not an anti-Christian, but the time to move is Now. Stop living in the past. Fuck Jesus!

Your martyr complex is showing. Apparently, the proposal to make a memorial = CRUCIFICATION! Jesus fucking Christ. Get a grip.

Oh, by the way, Jesus died 2000 years ago. Who cares if he was crucified. I mean I'm not an anti-Christian, but the time to move is Now. Stop living in the past. Fuck Jesus!

What's funny is, we have a memorial for fucking everything. We have a memorial for the 9/11 victims. We have a memorial for world war II, in fact we have memorials for specific groups IN world war II like Iwo Jima and the Tuskeegee airmen.

We have memorials for vietnam, for korea, for the gulf war, for the war in Iraq, for the civil war

We have a memorial for the kids shot at columbine. We have a dozens of memorials for people who died in 1776 and in the civil war (take that "it happened too long ago").

We even have memorials for people when we don't even know who the fuck they are (tomb of the unknown soldier for example).

But a memorial for the innocents kidnapped, stripped of their liberty and forced into slavery?

Oh, can't have that, the white people will feel bad!

I can only conclude one thing from this thread: Judas was governer of Virginia at some point. And if he wasn't, we need to elect him.

pssst, you said that already.

Nah, first time I said "Maybe...[they] should..."

This was me announcing my decision that they should do it, rather than just suggesting it.

Nah, first time I said "Maybe...[they] should..."

This was me announcing my decision that they should do it, rather than just suggesting it.

*nods* I shall inform the press that you have reached a decision.

in 1998 Clinton, the first sitting president to do so, spoke about recognizing the collosal damage done by slavery, and noted it as a great moral evil, however the federal government hasn't ever officially apologized for it.

Thanks Arthais.

See, this is the sort of thing that I deem helpful, useful. An acknowledgement that slavery happened, that it was wrong, and that it still has ramifications today.

How would an apology go?

"I (We) are very sorry that your ancestors were enslaved. We were wrong."

Or

"I (We) are very sorry for enslaving your ancestors. We were wrong."

I don't know. It just doesn't seem useful, or sincere. We already know it was wrong, and we've already made steps in the direction of right. The first option just implies pity, but the second implies direct action--- which as people have already noted, none of us enslaved anybody, and no one alive had been enslaved.

Your martyr complex is showing. Apparently, the proposal to make a memorial = CRUCIFICATION! Jesus fucking Christ. Get a grip.
there is memorials in every Catholic church.. and maybe other Christian religions too..
Are you saying having memorials.. is having martyr complex?

Jesus died 2000 years ago. Who cares if he was crucified. I mean I'm not an anti-Christian... (snipped)

.... Fuck Jesus!If it is against the rules to post pictures mocking the Holocaust or Mohamed.. It should be against the rules to sexually intercourse Jesus.

Thanks Arthais.

See, this is the sort of thing that I deem helpful, useful. An acknowledgement that slavery happened, that it was wrong, and that it still has ramifications today.

How would an apology go?

"I (We) are very sorry that your ancestors were enslaved. We were wrong."

Or

"I (We) are very sorry for enslaving your ancestors. We were wrong."

I don't know. It just doesn't seem useful, or sincere. We already know it was wrong, and we've already made steps in the direction of right. The first option just implies pity, but the second implies direct action--- which as people have already noted, none of us enslaved anybody, and no one alive had been enslaved.

More like something like this:

"The Government of the United States formally apologises for its role in the slave trade that existed in this country from X to Y. The government recognizes the horrible actions that it committed, and the numerous lives that were destroyed as a result. We commit ourselves now, not only to recognizing the evils of the past, but ensuring not only that the lasting impact be corrected, but that such an evil never occurs again in this country."

What's funny is, we have a memorial for fucking everything. We have a memorial for the 9/11 victims. We have a memorial for world war II, in fact we have memorials for specific groups IN world war II like Iwo Jima and the Tuskeegee airmen.

We have memorials for vietnam, for korea, for the gulf war, for the war in Iraq, for the civil war

We have a memorial for the kids shot at columbine. We have a dozens of memorials for people who died in 1776 and in the civil war (take that "it happened too long ago").

We even have memorials for people when we don't even know who the fuck they are (tomb of the unknown soldier for example).

But a memorial for the innocents kidnapped, stripped of their liberty and forced into slavery?

Oh, can't have that, the white people will feel bad!

Let's not forget the Civil War Memorials throughout the nation and more importantly let's have a little gratitude for the hundred of thousands of Americans who gave their lives for freeing the slaves...

As for Virginia's apology (although I'm completely against it) maybe they should apologize after Africa apologizes for selling "white" Americans their own people.

Let's not forget the Civil War Memorials throughout the nation

I didn't forget it, read more carefully.

and more importantly let's have a little gratitude for the hundred of thousands of Americans who gave their lives for freeing the slaves...

One does not have to do with the other.

As for Virginia's apology (although I'm completely against it) maybe they should apologize after Africa apologizes for selling "white" Americans their own people.

One does not have to do with the other, unless you believe that american policy should be dictated by other nations.

That seems horribly unlike you. Shall we ask Britain's help in how we should spend our budget? Let Canada run our Health system?

Oh, I know, I know, let's let Grenada manage our military.

Your history is also severely lacking.

What's funny is, we have a memorial for fucking everything. We have a memorial for the 9/11 victims. We have a memorial for world war II, in fact we have memorials for specific groups IN world war II like Iwo Jima and the Tuskeegee airmen.

We have memorials for vietnam, for korea, for the gulf war, for the war in Iraq, for the civil war

We have a memorial for the kids shot at columbine. We have a dozens of memorials for people who died in 1776 and in the civil war (take that "it happened too long ago").

We even have memorials for people when we don't even know who the fuck they are (tomb of the unknown soldier for example).

But a memorial for the innocents kidnapped, stripped of their liberty and forced into slavery?

Oh, can't have that, the white people will feel bad!

Ooo, I sort of like this. I can imagine it, the image of a strong black man, a noble woman, and charming child, all in some sort of black metal. The inscription underneath:
"To those who were deprived of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, who were deprived freedom, equality, and homeland, we honor you and your sacrifices. For helping to shape America and forcing us to examine our most cherished ideas, we thank you."


I think it would look nice in DC.

More like something like this:

"The Government of the United States formally apologises for its role in the slave trade that existed in this country from X to Y. The government recognizes the horrible actions that it committed, and the numerous lives that were destroyed as a result. We commit ourselves now, not only to recognizing the evils of the past, but ensuring not only that the lasting impact be corrected, but that such an evil never occurs again in this country."

I'm convinced. When's the press conferance?

And if you believe the consequences of those things are just going to evaporate because most white people prefer not to think about them, you're dead wrong.

If you want governments to apologise for everything they've done which had bad consequences then you're going to have everybody apologising for more or less everything. Hell, the UK would need a new department for the job.

Let's not forget the Civil War Memorials throughout the nation and more importantly let's have a little gratitude for the hundred of thousands of Americans who gave their lives for freeing the slaves...


How could we forget? No one like ever says shit like, "Hey, America should just forget the Civil War and move on already! LOL it happened in the past! Fuck the past!"

It's like this - if you believe in memorializing dead soldiers, why do you NOT want to memorialize dead slaves?

As for Virginia's apology (although I'm completely against it) maybe they should apologize after Africa apologizes for selling "white" Americans their own people.

Tu Quoque (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) fallacy. Try again, Jesus.

+1 boyfriend.


The is little substantially different between the two.

+1 boyfriend.


The is little substantially different between the two.

there are three substantial differences between the two:

1) veracity

2) level of involvement

3) the fact that the entire christian belief is based on the predestination of Jesus Christ to be sacrificed.

+1 boyfriend.


The is little substantially different between the two.

Except for that little thing where a Religion is not a State. Minor detail really. Unimportant.

Tu Quoque (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) fallacy. Try again, Jesus.

I can do even better than that. 60 years past between the abolition of the slave trade and the passing of the 13th amendment. No slaves were brought into the US after about 1805.

Slavery existed in this country for about 60 years propulgated entirely on existing slaves and their decendants.

More like something like this:

"The Government of the United States formally apologises for its role in the slave trade that existed in this country from X to Y. The government recognizes the horrible actions that it committed, and the numerous lives that were destroyed as a result. We commit ourselves now, not only to recognizing the evils of the past, but ensuring not only that the lasting impact be corrected, but that such an evil never occurs again in this country."

So you not only want an apology, but a promise to try and fix the problems that occurred because of slavery. Not just that, but if the entire government apologized then that would include the black people that are in the government - shouldn't it be "The white people of the government of the United States apologizes"? And why the entire government, the north apologized and atoned for it during the Civil War. Would you prefer "The southern white people of the government of the United States apologizes"?

So we've got time being taken by speechwriters, time being taken from the news networks, time being taken from the government, time being taken from people who have better things to do than sit and watch people make an apology that half of them don't really think they should do, money being taken from paying the speechwriters, paying the broadcasters, paying the advertisers that won't be shown their advertisements because this is being played instead, all because you want the southern white men of the government to make a halfassed apology that nobody really wants to watch.

Right. Good call.

Tu Quoque (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) fallacy. Try again, Jesus.This is not a "Tu quoque" fallacy. Doing something positive after seeing example by others does not at all fall in your assumed category.

Except for that little thing where a Religion is not a State. Minor detail really. Unimportant.It's an institution nonetheless.

So you not only want an apology, but a promise to try and fix the problems that occurred because of slavery.

I think that perfectly reasonable, and should be something the government is doing anyway, as a matter of course.

Unless you missed that whole "civil rights act" and "voter registration act" stuff a few years back.

Not just that, but if the entire government apologized then that would include the black people that are in the government - shouldn't it be "The white people of the government of the United States apologizes"? And why the entire government, the north apologized and atoned for it during the Civil War. Would you prefer "The southern white people of the government of the United States apologizes"?

The people IN the government are not the same AS the government, much like a corporations board of directors are entirely seperate legal entities from the corporation itself. You fail at logic.

So we've got time being taken by speechwriters,

Heaven forbid I advocate taking time away from people's jobs so that they can do their job.

time being taken from the news networks,

Heaven forbid I advocate taking time away from people's jobs so that they can do their job.

time being taken from the government,

time being taken from people who have better things to do than sit and watch people make an apology that half of them don't really think they should do,

I was unaware someone had kidnapped you and was forcing you to watch television. It is a good thing your captor has allowed you access to the internet, I suggest you make contact with the proper authorities immediatly.

Right. Good call.

Thank you. If you have any real arguments please let me know, considering these weren't very good.

This is not a "Tu quoque" fallacy. Doing something positive after seeing example by others does not at all fall in your assumed category.

So the government of the united states needs an excuse to do something positive?

I agree with you we should have collective guilt even for things we did not do or were not even alive for. You should become a politician and make a law that punishes children for their parents actions. Throwing children and other people in prison who have the same genetics as people who have committed crimes is a great idea. Punishing children for the sins of the father would make the country more free and prosperous.

So the government of the united states needs an excuse to do something positive?Did I say that?? Maybe they just need someone to give them an example for doing something positive...

It's an institution nonetheless.

try addressing my other three points, namely that:

1) the crucifiction of christ has not been historically demonstrated

2) given that it has not been conclusively demonstrated, any group's involvement, and the level of that involvement is spurious at best

3) the principle belief structure of christianity is that jesus was predestined to be sacrificed, meaning that IF it occured, it was not only a benefit to christians, as the sacrifice gives them a method of salvation, but something ordained by god to occur.

Did I say that??

yes you did. Otherwise why would the United States have, or even should, wait for another nation to do similar, unless you suggest either that the United States needs to be lead by example, or that other nations should have a say in US domestic policy

edit: confusion of posters, I wasn't paying too much attention to the names, only that I was addressing someone with a two word name (King Bodacious) and saw yours (United Beleriand), the argument got crossed, the post wasn't directed at you, sorry for the confusion.

I agree with you we should have collective guilt even for things we did not do or were not even alive for. You should become a politician and make a law that punishes children for their parents actions. Throwing children and other people in prison who have the same genetics as people who have committed crimes is a great idea. Punishing children for the sins of the father would make the country more free and prosperous.

once again, you like many others make the mistake of confusing the person with the government.

The people may be dead, the government still exists. It was the actions of THE GOVERNMENT that should be apologized for, and THE GOVERNMENT should apologize for it.

I agree with you we should have collective guilt even for things we did not do or were not even alive for. You should become a politician and make a law that punishes children for their parents actions. Throwing children and other people in prison who have the same genetics as people who have committed crimes is a great idea. Punishing children for the sins of the father would make the country more free and prosperous.he he, inherited sin is the whole point in judaism and christianity, isn't it...

yes you did. Otherwise why would the United States have, or even should, wait for another nation to do similar, unless you suggest either that the United States needs to be lead by example, or that other nations should have a say in US domestic policyyeah, i know the us has problems with taking advise or following examples... :rolleyes:

Except for that little thing where a Religion is not a State. Minor detail really. Unimportant.

What conceivable difference does this distinction make here?

A state perisists in the same sense as a religion, as an institution.

The jews and romans who killed jesus, in the jesus story, are dead and gone, - just like the virginians who owned slaves.

yeah, i know the us has problems with taking advise or following examples... :rolleyes:

sorry, I edited my above post, I got confused with which poster I was discussing. King Bodacious suggested that no apology should be issued until african nations did the same, which is the fallacy.

The argument that seeing such an apology might prompt the US to act the same is different, I was aiming for the other poster who suggested that an apology of the US should be conditional on an apology from other nations.

once again, you like many others make the mistake of confusing the person with the government.

The people may be dead, the government still exists. It was the actions of THE GOVERNMENT that should be apologized for, and THE GOVERNMENT should apologize for it.Well can you get me address of the Government? What does the Government look like
what color hair does the Government have? Because after all the evil the Government has done we should file a police report and have the Government arrested. Some one as bad as the Government should not be allowed to roam the streets freely.

What conceivable difference does this distinction make here?

A state perisists in the same sense as a religion, as an institution.

The jews and romans who killed jesus, in the jesus story, are dead and gone, - just like the virginians who owned slaves.However it would help heal some wounds if current Virginians would distance themselves from the deeds of their ancestors. Just as Jews should distance themselves from the Conquest of Canaan, the biblical and the ongoing one.

What conceivable difference does this distinction make here?

A state perisists in the same sense as a religion, as an institution.

The jews and romans who killed jesus, in the jesus story, are dead and gone, - just like the virginians who owned slaves.

one could argue though that religion, as an institution, has no, or at least nominal control over its members. Religion may decide edicts and religious law, but it is up to the individual members as to whether or not they obey it. Likewise while it's possible that jews were involved in the execution of jesus, it is virtually impossible to demonstrate that this involvement was as a result of a policy of Judaism as a whole.

A government on the other hand has a far greater control of its citizens, and slavery existed as a result of specific governmental policy.

In other words, just because some jews might have done something bad, this was not a result of a policy of judaism. Slavery was a policy of the government of the united states.

THat's the big difference.

he he, inherited sin is the whole point in judaism and christianity, isn't it...Yes it is instead of throwing these kids in jail they should be smited by the hand of god.

I come from a family who arrived in New York as Irish immigrants. My descendants were treated like dirt, given the worst wages of any group with the possible exception of Chinese immigrants, and no one apologizes to me. Why? Because the people it happened to are dead. Apologizing isn't going to help me or anyone else.

This is just more bullshit bible-mentality, where we think that for some reason the sins of the father really should become the sins of the son.

Well can you get me address of the Government? What does the Government look like
what color hair does the Government have? Because after all the evil the Government has done we should file a police report and have the Government arrested. Some one as bad as the Government should not be allowed to roam the streets freely.

your argument that because the government isn't a person it does not exist as an entity, this is patently false, in the same vein that a corporation isn't an person, but still exists..

You can sue the government, it has an existance as a legal entity.

...
This is just more bullshit bible-mentality, where we think that for some reason the sins of the father really should become the sins of the son.depends on the son's position on those sins...

one could argue though that religion, as an institution, has no, or at least nominal control over its members. Religion may decide edicts and religious law, but it is up to the individual members as to whether or not they obey it. Likewise while it's possible that jews were involved in the execution of jesus, it is virtually impossible to demonstrate that this involvement was as a result of a policy of Judaism as a whole.

A government on the other hand has a far greater control of its citizens, and slavery existed as a result of specific governmental policy.

In other words, just because some jews might have done something bad, this was not a result of a policy of judaism. Slavery was a policy of the government of the united states.

THat's the big difference.
You'd be right if the Government mandated that everyone had to own slaves. But most Southerners didn't. Most of them were yeomen who couldn't hope to afford slaves. In this respect, it was much like the control Judaism held: if the South didn't want to own slaves, they didn't have to, and if the Jews liked Jesus they didn't have to be against him.

But the point is moot. All slaves, and all their children, are dead.

In other words, just because some jews might have done something bad, this was not a result of a policy of judaism. Slavery was a policy of the government of the united states.

Furthermore, not only is the involvement of the religious institutions of the Jewish community in the crucifixion of Jesus (assuming it even happened) highly questionable, but the religious institutions that would have been involved no longer exist, and have no established successors.

Who would make the apology?

You'd be right if the Government mandated that everyone had to own slaves. But most Southerners didn't. Most of them were yeomen who couldn't hope to afford slaves. In this respect, it was much like the control Judaism held: if the South didn't want to own slaves, they didn't have to, and if the Jews liked Jesus they didn't have to be against him.

But the government said "it is alright to own slaves". Did the rabbinc heirarchy support the execution of Jesus Christ, or was it just some jews in an area?

But the point is moot. All slaves, and all their children, are dead.

Saying that all slaves are dead therefore there is no need to apologize is like saying a murderer shouldn't be punished because the person he killed is dead. It happened move on.

No, nonsensical. The victim is dead, but the victimizer still lives. The government that promulgated slavery lives on, as does the ramification for that slavery.

depends on the son's position on those sins...
If your dad murdered his neighbor, and you thought he did the right thing, it wouldn't be fair to put you in jail.

If your dad murdered his neighbor, and you thought he did the right thing, it wouldn't be fair to put you in jail.

But this is not the same thing at all. The argument is like saying, as I said above, that the dad murdered someone, so the victim is dead, the crime is over, nothing to be done.

Nonsense, you wouldn't put the son in jail, but you sure as hell would jail the father, because the father lives on.

The government of the United States, and the government of virginia, still exist.

If your dad murdered his neighbor, and you thought he did the right thing, it wouldn't be fair to put you in jail....but under close observation. at the least.

I come from a family who arrived in New York as Irish immigrants. My descendants were treated like dirt, given the worst wages of any group with the possible exception of Chinese immigrants, and no one apologizes to me. Why? Because the people it happened to are dead. Apologizing isn't going to help me or anyone else.

Two differences:
The Irish, as a 'white' race, were able to eventually assimilate into popular white culture. There is nothing to distinguish them as different, and so they stopped being treated as different.

Blacks faced extreme racism, after emancipation and before the Civil Rights movement, the effects of which are still apparent today.

Secondly, there is really no "bad-blood" between the Irish and the government. Perhaps that's a credit to the Irish. But the atmosphere is decidedly more tense when it comes to black/ white history. The purpose of an apology, after all, is to reduce tension and to re-connect. Even if an apology in this case is unlikely to have far-reaching extraordinary effects, it might do some good, and you never know how much good it will do until you try it.

your argument that because the government isn't a person it does not exist as an entity, this is patently false, in the same vein that a corporation isn't an person, but still exists..

You can sue the government, it has an existance as a legal entity.Has a corporation ever gone to jail? Has a corporation ever gotten the death penalty? Has corporation ever had to do community service for his crimes? Well if corporation and government exist as an entity have you ever had danced with the Government? Have you ever talked to a corporation? Had sex with a corporation? My guess is no but I have heard of people being fucked by the Government but I do not think it is literal. The Government and Corporations are not alive and are nothing more than groups of individuals working together. They would not be real if their were no individuals in them.

Has a corporation ever gone to jail? Has a corporation ever gotten the death penalty? Has corporation ever had to do community service for his crimes?

Forgive me, I missed the point where one has argued the government be executed.

Have you ever talked to a corporation?

Often, I represent several.

The Government and Corporations are not alive and are nothing more than groups of individuals working together. They would not be real if their were no individuals in them.

Keep saying that, it might make it true if you keep repeating it.

one could argue though that religion, as an institution, has no, or at least nominal control over its members. Religion may decide edicts and religious law, but it is up to the individual members as to whether or not they obey it. Likewise while it's possible that jews were involved in the execution of jesus, it is virtually impossible to demonstrate that this involvement was as a result of a policy of Judaism as a whole.

A government on the other hand has a far greater control of its citizens, and slavery existed as a result of specific governmental policy.

In other words, just because some jews might have done something bad, this was not a result of a policy of judaism. Slavery was a policy of the government of the united states.

THat's the big difference.


And the wrong of slavery has been well "appologized" already.

The civil war comes to mind, the extension of voting rights, of civil rights, &c.

No harm would come from appologizing for slavery, but it is a trivial and wasteful display, just like appologizing for killing jesus.

sorry, I edited my above post, I got confused with which poster I was discussing. King Bodacious suggested that no apology should be issued until african nations did the same, which is the fallacy.

The argument that seeing such an apology might prompt the US to act the same is different, I was aiming for the other poster who suggested that an apology of the US should be conditional on an apology from other nations.

I merely mentioned "Africa should apologize" as a point. I stand by my sayings, that there is NO need for Virginia as a state government to apologize. The blood of hundred of thousands for the freedom of the slaves should be enough. Funny how I don't recall any Thankyou just the ongoing "feel sorry for yourself" attitudes.

As for apologies, hell maybe we need to apologize to Britain for becoming independent and the native Americans for killing them and taking their land and not to forget taking parts of Texas from the Mexicans, and Japan for bring Hiro Shima, and apologize to the eskimos in Alaska for taking over them, and the Spanish for us taking Florida. Hell, maybe we should just apologize for our existance...or this could actually all be Britain's fault since their the ones we originally rebelled against...Only if the British Crown had better control over his people... :rolleyes:

But this is not the same thing at all. The argument is like saying, as I said above, that the dad murdered someone, so the victim is dead, the crime is over, nothing to be done.

Nonsense, you wouldn't put the son in jail, but you sure as hell would jail the father, because the father lives on.

The government of the United States, and the government of virginia, still exist.
A government is just a group of people. The laws and bylaws of the government may stay the same or change, but the government is basically the administration.

The administrations that presided of the U.S. Government and the Virginian government are composed of dead members.

Therefore, the father is dead.

And the wrong of slavery has been well "appologized" already.

I missed the apology, please point it out to me. Show me at what point the government said "it was wrong, I'm sorry".

No harm would come from appologizing for slavery, but it is a trivial and wasteful display, just like appologizing for killing jesus.

The problem is, as simple, WHO would apologize for killing Jesus? Was the religion of judaism, as an institution, involved, or was it just a bunch of jews who are long dead?

1) it is a bigoted statement overall because it is coming from a white man who unofficially wields power over blacks just by virtue of being white?

That's got to be the most bigoted statement I've read today.

A government is just a group of people. The laws and bylaws of the government may stay the same or change, but the government is basically the administration.

The administrations that presided of the U.S. Government and the Virginian government are composed of dead members.

Therefore, the father is dead.

Legally the government is an institution in and of itself. It has its own legal identity. As a legal entity with a legal identity, it exists today.

Let me ask you a question, let's say someone sues the state of virginia in a civil rights violation suit. THe man wins and the state is ordered to pay compensation of one million dollars.

The government delays, so long in fact that every single member of the government at the time of the verdict either retires or dies. NOw not a single person in the government of virgina was in place at the time the judgement came down.

Is the money still owed?

If only to shut up the whinicans/cryocrats, the US and all the states should issue a one line appology on the model of.

"The United States hereby appologizes to all people who it has wronged, and for all wrongs it has committed."

The Government and Corporations are not alive and are nothing more than groups of individuals working together. They would not be real if their were no individuals in them.

Corporations are forced to pay fines when they don't follow the law. ;)

The Government, consisting of a group of individuals, exists as something beyond the individual. The policies of that Government must be followed by those individuals. The policies remain, though individuals change. The USA is a democracy; this definition does not change each time a new group of individuals comes through.

If only to shut up the whinicans/cryocrats, the US and all the states should issue a one line appology on the model of.

"The United States hereby appologizes to all people who it has wronged, and for all wrongs it has committed."

heh, but then it'd have to issue one every 6 months or so.

6 hours or so as long as Bush is still in power.

Hell, every morning just after he wakes up the president should go "for everyone I fucked over yesterday....sorry".

Corporations are forced to pay fines when they don't follow the law. ;)

The Government, consisting of a group of individuals, exists as something beyond the individual. The policies of that Government must be followed by those individuals. The policies remain, though individuals change. The USA is a democracy; this definition does not change each time a new group of individuals comes through.
Then you agree that once the policy changes all individuals inducted into the organization thereafter are absolved of guilt, as they are part of what is arguably a new system.

Saying that all slaves are dead therefore there is no need to apologize is like saying a murderer shouldn't be punished because the person he killed is dead. It happened move on.
No. However, if the murdered was 103 and all the victims family members were all dead from old age, yeah, punishing him is just for show and serves no purpose.

No, nonsensical. The victim is dead, but the victimizer still lives.
Horseshit. Slavery is over. Jim Crow is over. Black people are in the Virginia legislature. The victimizer died of old age and was succeeded by the victims.

The government that promulgated slavery lives on, as does the ramification for that slavery.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. The government that promulgated slavery died years ago. Governments consist of people and change every 8 years or so normally, and they have to change when people die. The government of Virginia that "promulgated" slavery is long dead, on it now sits black people, so unless you want to accuse them of promoting slavery, get some shit in perspective.

IThe problem is, as simple, WHO would apologize for killing Jesus? Was the religion of judaism, as an institution, involved, or was it just a bunch of jews who are long dead?It was the Temple Authority, the most official element in Judaism at the time. I'd call that an institution, not just a bunch of jews...
Nevertheless, there is no need for an apology. Jews only killed another Jew (or had him killed).

What conceivable difference does this distinction make here?

A state perisists in the same sense as a religion, as an institution.

The jews and romans who killed jesus, in the jesus story, are dead and gone, - just like the virginians who owned slaves.

The State of Virginia which enslaved black people, still remains. The State of Virginia is what made it legal. Judaism as a religion never killed Jesus, nor sanctioned it. See the difference? It's kind of important.

Then you agree that once the policy changes all individuals inducted into the organization thereafter are absolved of guilt, as they are part of what is arguably a new system.

No. Because it remains the same organization; it is the same entity.

If an apology was not made before the change of policy, then that is the same as unfinished business rolled over into the "new".

I missed the apology, please point it out to me. Show me at what point the government said "it was wrong, I'm sorry".



The problem is, as simple, WHO would apologize for killing Jesus? Was the religion of judaism, as an institution, involved, or was it just a bunch of jews who are long dead?

I'd say for the sake of argument it could be argued that the religion of judaism, with its fixation on violent and murderous punishments for religious affronts, stands to blame in similar measure as the the state of virginia.

Judaism as an institution condoned the death penalty, virginia as an institution condoned slavery.

Some jews, in consideration of their institution's regulations and doctrine, felt that jesus should be killed for his blasphemy.

Some virginians, in consideration of their institution's laws, felt that they ought to own slaves.

Legally the government is an institution in and of itself. It has its own legal identity. As a legal entity with a legal identity, it exists today.

Let me ask you a question, let's say someone sues the state of virginia in a civil rights violation suit. THe man wins and the state is ordered to pay compensation of one million dollars.

The government delays, so long in fact that every single member of the government at the time of the verdict either retires or dies. NOw not a single person in the government of virgina was in place at the time the judgement came down.

Is the money still owed?
That's a mighty fine strawman you have there.

The State of Virginia which enslaved black people, still remains.
Yes, just like the Ford Company that supported Hitler is still around.

The State of Virginia is what made it legal.
No, the Constitution of the United States of America made slavery legal.

The former Government of Virginia. They aren't the same people and a lot has happened since. It's the same irrational problems within that idea that stop governments working with each other.
Would an apology change anything. No. If it did, then it might be worth it, but as it doesn't it would be a waste of government time and money.

As pointed out before -- West Virginia separated out from the rest and actually, the rest of the country should apologise for the abject poverty they've been in since.

The FORMER government of Virginia is no longer -- or do you think that the Confederate States of America still exists? The government of Virginia that was responsible for slavery was dissolved at the end of the Civil War -- you know, where the Emancipation Proclamation was signed, and slavery was ended. That sounds pretty much like o me, "Yeah, that sucked and was wrong."

Asking people born over a hundred years after the fact to apologize for something they had no part in, especially since, as the racialists are so fond of moaning, the country is becoming more and more reflective of its immigrants, is a bit ridiculous. Beyond that, it's ludicrous... have you ever heard someone who doesn't feel sincere apologize for something?

"Yeah, I'm sorry."

Please.

No. Because it remains the same organization; it is the same entity.

If an apology was not made before the change of policy, then that is the same as unfinished business rolled over into the "new".
The apology already came in the form of a redress of grievances, and furthermore just because it maintains the name United States of America doesn't mean it's the same organization. It's not the exact same organization, as it no longer condones slavery.

Judaism as a religion never killed Jesus, nor sanctioned it. I would be enough that the highest institution of Judaism killed him, or sanctioned it. However, since Jesus was a Jew himself, that's pointless.

Jews should apologize for the rotten trash they put in the Torah (and still hold true). No slavery could ever be as bad as the consequences that came from Jewish teachings, including the atrocities committed by religious directions based on those teachings.
And while slavery is already abolished (but indeed should be apologized for, at least symbolically), the stupid teachings out of the Torah and other biblical writings still poison humankind.

You are aware that those trashy Jewish teachings make up the Old Testament, I hope?

You are aware that those trashy Jewish teachings make up the Old Testament, I hope?

I would imagine the new testament falls under "other biblical writings" in his post. So I imagine he is aware of that.

You are aware that those trashy Jewish teachings make up the Old Testament, I hope?I know that. And? And the New Testament is firmly based on the trashy teachings that make up the Old Testament.

The apology already came in the form of a redress of grievances, and furthermore just because it maintains the name United States of America doesn't mean it's the same organization. It's not the exact same organization, as it no longer condones slavery.

That's like saying that since Nintendo now created the Wii it is no longer Nintendo.

Come on.

The government of the United States is still the government of the United States.

I do agree with you that acknowledgement of wrong-doing has been given, as shown by the actions of the government.

However, apologies are an emotional, mental thing. People hold grudges, even if they really have no right to hold them; an apology would make one less reason for a grudge. If it's not that big of deal, as you suppose, then why waste your time fighting it? Why not just say "I'm sorry" and see what happens? What evil has come from apologizing?

And if as you suppose, everytime policy changes in the US government, the entity itself becomes something entirely else, then why does the government attempt to fix the wrong-doing of the past governmet? According to you, they would not bear any such responsibility. According to you, once Bush is impea... er... out of office... the United States of America had no involvement in Iraq whatsoever. Afterall, it's a New Government.

Interesting, looks like the thread responses are at odds with the poll responses. Please respond to the poll as well!

The poll is flawed. No one in his or her right mind would "take it out on differently colored constituents" because of an insincere apology probably delivered by someone whose ancestors got here less than eighty years ago.

Sure we do! Plenty of our ancestors surely came over here as slaves, indentured servants, or similar things. Or child laborers.

As a matter of fact, indentured servants were in many places looked down upon as even lower than slaves, because they chose to be captives.

That's like saying that since Nintendo now created the Wii it is no longer Nintendo.

[quote]Come on.

The government of the United States is still the government of the United States.
Let me explain using math:


Just bear with me: Let's say that X is the government of Virginia which supported slavery, and A is all the policies and people that made up that government. It can be said that x = A

Now B represents slavery and all institutions and people impeached and abolished after the civil war.

You cannot say that
X = A - B



I do agree with you that acknowledgement of wrong-doing has been given, as shown by the actions of the government. Good. So, unless you want to create a precedant of endless apologies, it wouldn't make sense to apologize again.

However, apologies are an emotional, mental thing. People hold grudges, even if they really have no right to hold them; an apology would make one less reason for a grudge. If it's not that big of deal, as you suppose, then why waste your time fighting it? Why not just say "I'm sorry" and see what happens? What evil has come from apologizing?
I'll agree that it was, politcally, a stupid thing to do, but it was not morally wrong.

However, just for the sake of argument, it strengthens feelings that reparations should be given, and sets a precedent for endless apologies, which are two things that would hurt American citizens as a whole.

And if as you suppose, everytime policy changes in the US government, the entity itself becomes something entirely else, then why does the government attempt to fix the wrong-doing of the past governmet? According to you, they would not bear any such responsibility. According to you, once Bush is impea... er... out of office... the United States of America had no involvement in Iraq whatsoever. Afterall, it's a New Government.
There are several flaws. For one thing, the people that elected those representatives still exist, and they are therefore still responsible. Secondly, they should try to fix the wrongs of their ancestors, just as we did after the Civil War. Thirdly, it is clearly in the interest of the United States to fix past grievances such as slavery and Iraq, and therefore should be pursued irregardless of guilt.

That's like saying that since Nintendo now created the Wii it is no longer Nintendo.

Come on.

The government of the United States is still the government of the United States.

I do agree with you that acknowledgement of wrong-doing has been given, as shown by the actions of the government.

However, apologies are an emotional, mental thing. People hold grudges, even if they really have no right to hold them; an apology would make one less reason for a grudge. If it's not that big of deal, as you suppose, then why waste your time fighting it? Why not just say "I'm sorry" and see what happens? What evil has come from apologizing?

And if as you suppose, everytime policy changes in the US government, the entity itself becomes something entirely else, then why does the government attempt to fix the wrong-doing of the past governmet? According to you, they would not bear any such responsibility. According to you, once Bush is impea... er... out of office... the United States of America had no involvement in Iraq whatsoever. Afterall, it's a New Government.

How much of history should we apologise for?

Well, I guess I was noting the sad irony of the fact that we as white people (and the government of Virginia is, admittedly, largely made up of white men) get to argue about whether or not to stoop to make a small humanitarian gesture for black people. Although I'm not sure how the two statements I made are necessarily in conflict with each other.

So you speak for all of us as white people?

I'm a third generation American of Sicilian and Hispanic background. My great-grandparents got here in 1908 and were discriminated against like hell. My mother cried telling me that as a child, there were actually signed posted on apartment buildings, "No Dogs or Puerto Ricans."

I don't hear anyone apologizing to me for all the discrimination against Guineas, Wops, and Spics, and my ancestors were dirt poor where they came from.

If you feel wonderfully superior and think the poor and downtrodden think that they need pity and insincere words to salve your conscience, that's YOUR PROBLEM. Treating people like, well, you know, PEOPLE, and making sure that they aren't discriminated against CURRENTLY, and making sure you treat everyone equally PERSONALLY is far more important than this sop to sentimentality that you're trying to force on others via the guilt trip.

But please, feel free to walk up to every person of every conceivable shade of brown and tell them you're so sorry about their continuing inferiority because of the levels of melanin in their skin. I'm sure they'll quite appreciate it.

Often, I represent several.You talked to the corporation or someone working for the corporation?



Keep saying that, it might make it true if you keep repeating it.So the corporation is alive what kind of health is the corporation in I bet the corporations you know are extremely obese.

Yes, just like the Ford Company that supported Hitler is still around.

And that has what to do with this discussion?

Is a business elected by the people? By the people, for the people, of the people? No? Okay so maybe you can tell me how this is somehow relevant.

No, the Constitution of the United States of America made slavery legal.

Oh, so Virginia is not to be held accountable for sanctioning and practicing slavery?

And that has what to do with this discussion?

Is a business elected by the people? By the people, for the people, of the people? No? Okay so maybe you can tell me how this is somehow relevant.


You're arguing that despite huge changes of policy and similar, the US/Virginia government is still the same as it was in the days of slavery. The principle can applied to businesses just as easily.

What conceivable difference does this distinction make here?

A state perisists in the same sense as a religion, as an institution.

The jews and romans who killed jesus, in the jesus story, are dead and gone, - just like the virginians who owned slaves.

Then you're saying that the United States of America are really just colonies, because at some point in the past, that's what they were.

The current government of Virginia is not the government of Virginia that endorsed slavery. That government split off from the United States government and became the Confederate State of Virginia.

The Confederate State of Virginia as an entity ceased to exist at the end of the Civil War/War of Northern Aggression/War Between the States/Late Great Unpleasantness or whatever you want to call it.


Shall we have all the former Confederate States apologize for splitting off?
Or have all the former Union States apologize for kicking the shit out of the Confederate States and keeping them in povery long after the war?

Can we get the descendants of the black African slave traders over here as well to apologize? After all, fair is fair.

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/0018a/0018a162.jpg

This was just a gesture, nothing really. But it paved the way for normalising relations and getting some sort of future happening together.

Regardless of whether anyone today actually kept slaves, it just seems like a wise policy move to try and make some amends.

1) Then you're saying that the United States of America are really just colonies, because at some point in the past, that's what they were.

2) The current government of Virginia is not the government of Virginia that endorsed slavery. That government split off from the United States government and became the Confederate State of Virginia.

3) The Confederate State of Virginia as an entity ceased to exist at the end of the Civil War/War of Northern Aggression/War Between the States/Late Great Unpleasantness or whatever you want to call it.


4) Shall we have all the former Confederate States apologize for splitting off?
Or have all the former Union States apologize for kicking the shit out of the Confederate States and keeping them in povery long after the war?

1) No, I'm not. What are you talking about?

2) And?

3) Virginia was a state with slaves long before it became a confederate state. How is this relevant anyway?

4) Why would we do that if I'm not advocating that Virginia apologize for slavery?

What does anything you've posted have to do with anything I've posted or with my position on this topic?

?

?

?

And that has what to do with this discussion?
Everything if we are working under the assumption that corporations are like governments and "governments never change."

Is a business elected by the people? By the people, for the people, of the people?
So you are saying the government is only a product of its constituents and actually has no individual mind?

Oh, so Virginia is not to be held accountable for sanctioning and practicing slavery?
I thought you just recognized a state as a non-individual in your last statement?

No, I'm not.
Yes, you are. You are asserting states never change, and since they existed as they are now for the most part before the Constitution, and therefore are all still colonies.

Regardless of whether anyone today actually kept slaves, it just seems like a wise policy move to try and make some amends.
Why? So they can convince the black people in the state legislature that the state they are representatives of doesn't support slavery and Jim Crow still? Seems ironic don't you think?

Everything if we are working under the assumption that corporations are like governments and "governments never change."

It's nonsensical to say "governments never change" and nobody has made that argument. If it were true, the USSR would still be around.

Governments certainly DO change. However they do not change simply because the representatives retire and new representatives take power.

A government is formed through a legal framework. If that framework ceases to have legal authority, the government is considered to no longer exist.

The United States was formed through the legal framework that is the Constitution of the United States. That constitution existed during the civil war, and it exists today.

Ergo the government of the united states today, and the government of the united states during the civil war, both operated under the same legal framework. Thus they are the same nation.

If tomorrow we toss the constitution and rebuild ourselves in some different way, then perhaps the nation that is the united states today will not be the same as whatever exists tomorrow.

But considering that both the nation today and the nation in 1865 exist under the same legal framework, they can be considered the same nation.

Yes, you are. You are asserting states never change, and since they existed as they are now for the most part before the Constitution, and therefore are all still colonies
Again it's not that states NEVER change, this is nonsensical. It's that if the same legal framework exists from one day to the nex, it can be held to be the same nation.

Where does this "jews apologizing for christ" thing come from? Jesus was a Jew himself and the entire Messiah-crap and his death as payment for the sin of Adam is completely Jewish. Christians are just a Jewish sect who believes the Messiah has already come. But basically it's the same theology. They all should apologize for fabricating a god and teaching the world that there are people of different value (which in the end is of course an excuse for slavery), but "jews apologizing for christ" is pointless.
And to drag this into a comparison with American-style slavery is just outrageous.

Wow, that's the first post to deal with THAT part of the question. I completely agree, and it's pretty creepy that this guy said it at all.

More like something like this:

"The Government of the United States formally apologises for its role in the slave trade that existed in this country from X to Y. The government recognizes the horrible actions that it committed, and the numerous lives that were destroyed as a result. We commit ourselves now, not only to recognizing the evils of the past, but ensuring not only that the lasting impact be corrected, but that such an evil never occurs again in this country."

That sounds pretty good to me. You should be Virginia's speech-writer. :D

It's nonsensical to say "governments never change" and nobody has made that argument.
Except for everyone saying Viriginia supported slavery and should apologize.
However they do not change simply because the representatives retire and new representatives take power.

A government is formed through a legal framework. If that framework ceases to have legal authority, the government is considered to no longer exist.
Yeah, it's not like the representatives have control of the legal framework. They just sit on their collective old asses getting political science majors to fetch them coffee and jacking up the prizes in the capital area because lobbyists spend assloads of cash buying them lunch.

Except for everyone saying Viriginia supported slavery and should apologize.

Please point out someone saying that no nation, ever, under any circumstances, changes.

Yeah, it's not like the representatives have control of the legal framework. They just sit on their collective old asses getting political science majors to fetch them coffee and jacking up the prizes in the capital area because lobbyists spend assloads of cash buying them lunch.

Is the Constitution of the United States no longer in force?

No?

Then I guess the legal framwork of the nation is still intact then, huh?

Please point out someone saying that no nation, ever, under any circumstances, changes.
I said state, as in a collection of borders who have accepted the Constitution of the United States and are united under it.




Then I guess the legal framwork of the nation is still intact then, huh?
Which has what to do with the price of tea in China, or moreover, slavery in Virginia and why Virginia, as a state, should apologize for it?

I am a white American whose family probably benefitted financially from slavery. I occasionally meet black people who have the same last name as me. I usually feel a bit awkward when this happens because it's quite possible that my family owned his family a while back. So.... I'll apologize. It's a lot cheaper than coughing up unpaid wages.

Hmm... no one's responded to my post in this thread. I guess must be completely right and other people are finding easier arguments to rip apart. I am satisfied.

Hey I've been quoted on a blog:

http://justspeech.blogspot.com/2007/01/apologies-for-slavery.html

...well, we have.

Hey I've been quoted on a blog:

http://justspeech.blogspot.com/2007/01/apologies-for-slavery.html

...well, we have.How on earth did you find it? Did you google Ilie or something?

I do like how general is developing a presence on the web though. I've seam to remember it being refered to increasingly frequently.

I agree with your boyfriend.

Well can you get me address of the Government? What does the Government look like
what color hair does the Government have? Because after all the evil the Government has done we should file a police report and have the Government arrested. Some one as bad as the Government should not be allowed to roam the streets freely.

I happen to agree with that...I don't think much of the actions of most of our goverment(s). I suppose that's why we have NationStates, to make our own ideal government.

Two differences:
The Irish, as a 'white' race, were able to eventually assimilate into popular white culture. There is nothing to distinguish them as different, and so they stopped being treated as different.

Blacks faced extreme racism, after emancipation and before the Civil Rights movement, the effects of which are still apparent today.

Secondly, there is really no "bad-blood" between the Irish and the government. Perhaps that's a credit to the Irish. But the atmosphere is decidedly more tense when it comes to black/ white history. The purpose of an apology, after all, is to reduce tension and to re-connect. Even if an apology in this case is unlikely to have far-reaching extraordinary effects, it might do some good, and you never know how much good it will do until you try it.


Well said, Moosle. You've been very verbal on this subject.

As for apologies, hell maybe we need to apologize to [snip] the native Americans for killing them and taking their land and not to forget taking parts of Texas from the Mexicans, and Japan for bring Hiro Shima, and apologize to the eskimos in Alaska for taking over them, and the Spanish for us taking Florida. Hell, maybe we should just apologize for our existance...

Actually, that is a great idea. We need to do a lot of freaking apologizing, and may I add that taking over people's lands and benefiting from their destruction is not the same thing as existing. We could (and should) have done better with our relocating plans.

That's got to be the most bigoted statement I've read today.

Why?

The poll is flawed. No one in his or her right mind would "take it out on differently colored constituents" because of an insincere apology probably delivered by someone whose ancestors got here less than eighty years ago.

If you don't agree with any part of the first two choices, I have two others left over that are pretty broad.

I think your boyfriend should appologize to you for not letting women vote 100 years ago.

So you speak for all of us as white people?

I'm a third generation American of Sicilian and Hispanic background. My great-grandparents got here in 1908 and were discriminated against like hell. My mother cried telling me that as a child, there were actually signed posted on apartment buildings, "No Dogs or Puerto Ricans."

I don't hear anyone apologizing to me for all the discrimination against Guineas, Wops, and Spics, and my ancestors were dirt poor where they came from.

If you feel wonderfully superior and think the poor and downtrodden think that they need pity and insincere words to salve your conscience, that's YOUR PROBLEM. Treating people like, well, you know, PEOPLE, and making sure that they aren't discriminated against CURRENTLY, and making sure you treat everyone equally PERSONALLY is far more important than this sop to sentimentality that you're trying to force on others via the guilt trip.

But please, feel free to walk up to every person of every conceivable shade of brown and tell them you're so sorry about their continuing inferiority because of the levels of melanin in their skin. I'm sure they'll quite appreciate it.

ExCUSE me, I am Jewish. MY grandmother escaped from Russia during the Russian pogroms (you know, one of the many times a country decided they were sick of a good portion of their population and decided to get rid of them by whatever means). They lived in a ghetto and had their shit vandalized all the time. Ask me if jews were allowed anywhere your family wasn't allowed to go either. We worked our way up from nothing and there are still assholes around that have a lot to say about jews.

Saying that whites inherently have power isn't just my personal opinion. You and I can buy "flesh" colored bandaids and "nude" pantyhose. You and I can go shopping without a salesperson tailing us. You and I can "blend in" as minorities because we are pretty darned white. Anybody who is in school for any career to do with the humanities is learning that we have to think about what it means to be white in this culture, and the fact is that whites have inherent power in the United States. To not admit it and face it and work to change it means you are ignoring it, which also means that you are on the wrong side of things. For crying out loud, get educated.

I am a white American whose family probably benefitted financially from slavery. I occasionally meet black people who have the same last name as me. I usually feel a bit awkward when this happens because it's quite possible that my family owned his family a while back. So.... I'll apologize. It's a lot cheaper than coughing up unpaid wages.

Wow...that is awkward.

How on earth did you find it? Did you google Ilie or something?

I do like how general is developing a presence on the web though. I've seam to remember it being refered to increasingly frequently.

Actually, I was googling for more information on the "official apology" thing. Pretty neat, huh?

I agree with your boyfriend.

As I recall, you think he's pretty cute, too. I'm sure that has nothing to do with it. :p

I think your boyfriend should appologize to you for not letting women vote 100 years ago.

Actually, the argument did evolve into him needing to be sensitive to the fact that women are still not treated equally in the United States. But that is a topic that has been brought up many times and it's not something I have the energy to deal with here.

ExCUSE me, I am Jewish. MY grandmother escaped from Russia during the Russian pogroms (you know, one of the many times a country decided they were sick of a good portion of their population and decided to get rid of them by whatever means). They lived in a ghetto and had their shit vandalized all the time. Ask me if jews were allowed anywhere your family wasn't allowed to go either. We worked our way up from nothing and there are still assholes around that have a lot to say about jews.

Saying that whites inherently have power isn't just my personal opinion. You and I can buy "flesh" colored bandaids and "nude" pantyhose. You and I can go shopping without a salesperson tailing us. You and I can "blend in" as minorities because we are pretty darned white. Anybody who is in school for any career to do with the humanities is learning that we have to think about what it means to be white in this culture, and the fact is that whites have inherent power in the United States. To not admit it and face it and work to change it means you are ignoring it, which also means that you are on the wrong side of things. For crying out loud, get educated.

I'm not ignoring it, and I am educated, thank you very much. I just happen to think your argument is stupid.

There are black lawmakers. There are black businessmen and women. There are black actors. There are black singers. There are black athletes. There are black educators. Just like there are white ones.

There are ignorant white people. There are poor white people. There are economically disadvantaged white people. There are socially disadvantaged white people. There are white people who are not, through no fault of their own, ever going to be able to get out from under and get a decent job. They live in bad neighborhoods and have as good a chance as a similarly poor black person at getting robbed or shot.

Why not work on the class and economic disadvantages that the poor and uneducated in this country face rather than some idiotic lip service that puts no food on anyone's table, no money in anyone's pocket, and no education in anyone's head? Because of the White Man's Burden, the excuse that's been used in order to OPPRESS anyone who's too brown? "You can't do it, so we'll do it for you? You're too stupid to know how to run your land, so we'll take it from you?"

You take the bloody cake, and the tablewear, tablecloth, chairs and rug too.

I'm not ignoring it, and I am educated, thank you very much. I just happen to think your argument is stupid.

There are black lawmakers. There are black businessmen and women. There are black actors. There are black singers. There are black athletes. There are black educators. Just like there are white ones.

There are ignorant white people. There are poor white people. There are economically disadvantaged white people. There are socially disadvantaged white people. There are white people who are not, through no fault of their own, ever going to be able to get out from under and get a decent job. They live in bad neighborhoods and have as good a chance as a similarly poor black person at getting robbed or shot.

Why not work on the class and economic disadvantages that the poor and uneducated in this country face rather than some idiotic lip service that puts no food on anyone's table, no money in anyone's pocket, and no education in anyone's head? Because of the White Man's Burden, the excuse that's been used in order to OPPRESS anyone who's too brown? "You can't do it, so we'll do it for you? You're too stupid to know how to run your land, so we'll take it from you?"

You take the bloody cake, and the tablewear, tablecloth, chairs and rug too.

Look, this thread is about what you think about this guy's statement. I happen to find the fact that they refuse to issue one blatantly insensitive. This is not about reparations, or "running their land", or whatever else you'd like to pin on me. This hypothetical apology was requested by black lawmakers. Okay? Is that non-racist enough for you?

Everything if we are working under the assumption that corporations are like governments and "governments never change."

Well, that seems to be a strawman, or someone else's point. I never said governments "never change" and I don't see how bringing up corporations is at all relevant.

So you are saying the government is only a product of its constituents and actually has no individual mind?

No... that's not what I said. And I don't need to repeat what I said, cuz you yourself quoted what I said.

I thought you just recognized a state as a non-individual in your last statement?

I recognize the State. Period.

Yes, you are. You are asserting states never change, and since they existed as they are now for the most part before the Constitution, and therefore are all still colonies.

It seems to me your main argument here consists of putting words in my mouth. I don't have time - address what I write, or don't respond at all.

You're arguing that despite huge changes of policy and similar, the US/Virginia government is still the same as it was in the days of slavery. The principle can applied to businesses just as easily.

The State of Virginia is the State of Virginia. There have been changes, but not in this really basic concept of political sovereignty. Unless of course you are no longer recognizing that the State of Virginia exists... you'd be rather alone in that, though.

Whether it can be applied to businesses or not is a non-issue. Sure, the Ford Company supported Hitler. This discussion is about Virginia.

The assertion that the State of Virgina is an individual, while subsequently ignoring the fact it only exists as a collaboration of elected officials, is patently absurd.

The assertion that the State of Virgina is an individual, while subsequently ignoring the fact it only exists as a collaboration of elected officials, is patently absurd.

And farting while laughing is also absurd. Any more strawmen?

And farting while laughing is also absurd. Any more strawmen?

If you can't make an argument, don't bother posting.
How are the elected officials that make up the state of Virginia ignorable?

The assertion that the State of Virgina is an individual

The state of virginia is not an individual, it is an entity.

Until you understand he basic legal concept of a legal political entity, I suggest this conversation may be over your head.

How are the elected officials that make up the state of Virginia ignorable?

How is a african elephant in uganda ignorable?

It's irrelevant.

Look, this thread is about what you think about this guy's statement. I happen to find the fact that they refuse to issue one blatantly insensitive. This is not about reparations, or "running their land", or whatever else you'd like to pin on me. This hypothetical apology was requested by black lawmakers. Okay? Is that non-racist enough for you?

God forbid someone is blatantly insensitive!

Oh, the humanity.

Imagine if all the time and energy wasted trying to get the Virginia government to cough up an insincere ("well, if it shuts these whiny blacks up...") trivial 'apology for slavery' were used to create actual change in the conditions in which people live.

God forbid someone is blatantly insensitive!

Oh, the humanity.

Imagine if all the time and energy wasted trying to get the Virginia government to cough up an insincere ("well, if it shuts these whiny blacks up...") trivial 'apology for slavery' were used to create actual change in the conditions in which people live.

1) what makes you think it would take so much time?

2) insincere? So you think the representatives of virginia do not think slavery was an evil? How racist do you think they are?

How is a african elephant in uganda ignorable?

It's irrelevant.

Wrong. There is no state of Virginia if the elected officials are ignored. The legislature can change the laws, to the point of amending the constitution of Virginia itself. If you pretend they don't exist, why should the state of Virgina apologize? I guess you should go make the dead garden apologize for not providing beauty and oxygen and give the gardeners the day off.

EDIT: In fact, the Constitution of Virginia was rewritten in 1864 in which slavery was outlawed.

Until you understand he basic legal concept of a legal political entity,
The state is not a legal entity in the manner you want it to be. You can personify it all you want, but you still won't get any more out of it than a tale of the Cat and the Fiddle.

1) what makes you think it would take so much time?

2) insincere? So you think the representatives of virginia do not think slavery was an evil? How racist do you think they are?

I think that the reps of Virginia would already have issued the apology if they intended it with any real conviction.

This is an exercise in trivial whining. Instead of whining, the people whining about an apology should do something substantial.

How on earth did you find it? Did you google Ilie or something?

I do like how general is developing a presence on the web though. I've seam to remember it being refered to increasingly frequently.

Either Ilie wrote it theirself or someone they know did it.

God forbid someone is blatantly insensitive!

Oh, the humanity.

Imagine if all the time and energy wasted trying to get the Virginia government to cough up an insincere ("well, if it shuts these whiny blacks up...") trivial 'apology for slavery' were used to create actual change in the conditions in which people live.

Oh gee, I wish I'd said that. :D

Look, this thread is about what you think about this guy's statement. I happen to find the fact that they refuse to issue one blatantly insensitive. This is not about reparations, or "running their land", or whatever else you'd like to pin on me. This hypothetical apology was requested by black lawmakers. Okay? Is that non-racist enough for you?

No, the thread is about your argument with your boyfriend and your need to be proven right.

You mean by virtue of being elected? This isn't Jim Crow anymore, black people get elected to government offices to, you know.

As for the general topic, I find it a waste of time and money to placate aggreived minority groups, especially for a wrong that was committed over a hundred years ago.

Let them fume.

Meh, I get more annoyed when I get the "You enslaved us!" schpeel, even though there are two problems, and one nervous tick:

1. None, and I mean none, of my white ancestors were over this way at the time.
2. My race hasn't exactly had a fun little past over here, as far as race goes(Italians, for some reason or another, have random spurts of lynching-haven't figured it out)
3. Wanna talk about slavery? Let's talk about open genocide of my ancestors throughout most of the history of America, even past the civil war(Native American).

So, really, that's why I get annoyed, and feel no need to apologize personally, other than "Sorry that that happened in the past, but seriously I don't give a damn"(As most of the people giving this schpeel have far more money than I do).

Thank you all for participating in this thread. I know this is a sensitive topic, and I appreciate your honesty.

The parallel is totally invalid.

Jews, as a living group, did not kill Christ. We aren't even sure if there was a Christ, let alone about the circumstances of his death. Furthermore, none of the Jews or Jewish organizations that could theoretically have participated in the death of Jesus are still in existence today.

The state of Virginia did legally uphold slavery. The state of Virginia still exists. We have ample evidence of both.

The PEOPLE of Virginia who are around today don't owe anybody an apology for slavery, because none of them engaged in it. However, the STATE of Virginia did. I wouldn't mind seeing an on-the-record apology for that.

During the Civil War Richmond wound up being the Capital of the Confederate States of America during the war a part of Virginia split into what is called West Virginia. After the Civil War the Virginia State government was "restored" No apology needed.

As some here are claiming that the "State of Virginia" should apologize, who should represent the State of Virginia since the fact is that nobody alive during the Civil War is alive today so who can fairly represent the State of Virginia of 1861? And why aren't people whining about the rest of the South to apologize? Why only Virginia? Let's turn the tide, I demand the Northern states apologize for their grimness and atrocities against the immigrants of back then. The Immigrants were treated horrendously by the Northern states and have yet to recieve an apology.

I agree with those who say, "Get over it"...

During the Civil War Richmond wound up being the Capital of the Confederate States of America during the war a part of Virginia split into what is called West Virginia. After the Civil War the Virginia State government was "restored" No apology needed.

And West Virginia still exists. Not sure where you're going here with this.

As some here are claiming that the "State of Virginia" should apologize, who should represent the State of Virginia

Gee, that's a tough one. I know, the democratically elected government of the State of Virginia!

since the fact is that nobody alive during the Civil War is alive today so who can fairly represent the State of Virginia of 1861?

Bullshit. You don't need Civil War generation survivors in order to have "fair representation" of the State of Virginia. You seem to think, as others do, that if the individuals leading a State die, nothing the State does matters since it was "just those individuals." Ridiculous.

And why aren't people whining about the rest of the South to apologize? Why only Virginia?

Why are you whining about poor victimized Virginia? Your mother from there or something?

Let's turn the tide, I demand the Northern states apologize for their grimness and atrocities against the immigrants of back then. The Immigrants were treated horrendously by the Northern states and have yet to recieve an apology.

You ignored it the first time around, so.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
http://www.cuyamaca.edu/bruce.thompson/fallacies/tuquoque.asp
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_tuquoque.htm
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

Have a nice day.

I agree with those who say, "Get over it"...

If your agreement was based on something other than ignorance and fallacy maybe it would be relevant.

I want the NAACP to apologize for the atrocities of Timur the Lame. Absurd, right?

I agree with those who say, "Get over it"...

Actually, this is much deeper than the State of Virginia maybe it's the Democrats who needs to apologize since they were the party that ruled the majority of the South...

...I can picture this, all of today's people representing the Democratic Party, which is alive and well as the same party that was alive and well and formed the State of Virginia in 1860s, all standing up and condemning their party's act and atrocities of the 1860s slavery...

Come on now, stand up Democrats and do the right thing, Pelosi, Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, Reid, Let's not for get you "KKK" Byrd, All Democrats of the Legislature please stand and Apologize NOW, I demand it...

The state of virginia is not an individual, it is an entity.

Until you understand he basic legal concept of a legal political entity, I suggest this conversation may be over your head.Would you please explain how a legal entity apologises for slavery? Does the legal entity have a mouth to apologise with?

Would you please explain how a legal entity apologises for slavery? Does the legal entity have a mouth to apologise with?most likely it has.

Gee, that's a tough one. I know, the democratically elected government of the State of Virginia!
Who had what to do with slavery?

EDIT: Nevermind, I demand Lionell Spruill, Dwight Jones, Benjamin Lambert, Louise Lucas, and Yvonne Miller to apologize on the behalf of the state of Virginia for its part in slavery.

If that doesn't outline the absurdity of this, nothing will.

Would you please explain how a legal entity apologises for slavery? Does the legal entity have a mouth to apologise with?
Civics 101, people. You should consider it your prerequisite for posting around these threads. :P

I don't think that's such a good idea. If VA apologizes for slavery, that would put a lot of weight into the "Reparations for Slavery" movement.

Virginia should be using their time to actually govern instead of debating whether they should apologize for something that ended long ago. How are we supposed to become a fully integrated society when we constantly look into the past and dredge up even more issues as to why whites are so evil? Why don't we consentrate on the problems we have today instead of looking back? Putting money into poor innercity schools for a start.

I don't care one way or another if VA apologises or not. But I would like to see the democratic party apologise for being the main player in that particular dark chapter of US history. The Democrats were pro-slavery until the end, after they were disabused of the notion by the South losing the war and the Union being vehemently anti-slavery in it's idealogy they at least had the decency to hush up. However even during the civil war, some ardent democrats, such as Stephen A. Douglas, tried to rally support behind Union lines for their pro-slavery stance.
One of the reasons I will never vote for the democrats is simply they were one of the most racistic parties and never apologised officially for their transgressions. Meanwhile the Republicans, under Abraham Lincoln actually fought to free the slaves not keep them in shackles.
VA like the democratic party changed and even I recognise that both see slavery as abhorent now. However neither has apologised. If they should is another topic. However I firmly believe if VA apologises the democratic party should at least have the decency to follow the suit and get that crutch off it's back.

How are we supposed to become a fully integrated society when we constantly look into the past and dredge up even more issues as to why whites are so evil? Why don't we consentrate on the problems we have today instead of looking back? Putting money into poor innercity schools for a start.

a refusal to apologize pretty much means that an honest attempt to deal with the ramifications of previous actions is out of the question.

Virginia should be using their time to actually govern instead of debating whether they should apologize for something that ended long ago.

You obviously don't understand the intricacies of being a public representative.

a refusal to apologize pretty much means that an honest attempt to deal with the ramifications of previous actions is out of the question.
Horseshit. A forced apology and debate on whether or not an apology should be made is not helping make amends for slavery or racism, on either side of the line. The very idea that it does is ridiculous. Words are words and actions are actions and hollow words are a waste of time you could be using to coerce action.

And ultimately, I for one am tired of hearing how white people and southerners and former slave states should apologize for slavery. Fuck slavery and fuck your apology, spend your time lobbying for reforms and get the fuck over slavery, it's over, hell the Virginia constitution of 1864 abolished it. Slavery is dead, Jim Crow is dead, why isn't the black agenda's idea that all black people living today were slaves dead?

a refusal to apologize pretty much means that an honest attempt to deal with the ramifications of previous actions is out of the question.

Slavery is outlawed. That should be indication enough that no one cares for the institution anymore. Why do people need to hear an official apology? This sounds like a simple attempt for those black advocates to feel like victims. They want to be patted on the back in sympathy for what their great-great-great grandparents went through. Instead of looking for solutions to modern problems they want to go back to an issue that no longer exists. Waste of time.

You obviously don't understand the intricacies of being a public representative.

I can understand that politicians need to listen to their constituents. But if this is the case then put through quickly a "I'm sorry we had slaves" and vote it through. Don't spend time agonizing over it, simply do it and get back to the matter of governing.

You? Nothing (or at least nothing I know of.)

The Virginia Government? A hell of a lot.

Show me where Virginia allows slavery.

Oh yeah, we don't. Moot point, move along.

Horseshit. A forced apology and debate on whether or not an apology should be made is not helping make amends for slavery or racism, on either side of the line. The very idea that it does is ridiculous. Words are words and actions are actions and hollow words are a waste of time you could be using to coerce action.

what forced apology are you talking about?

and on what planet do you live where people who refuse to apologize for what they have done are believed to be better able to honestly attempt to repair the damage they have caused? 'cause in every case i can think of, the apology is taken to be a necessary step in the process.

Instead of looking for solutions to modern problems they want to go back to an issue that no longer exists.

yeah, because the ramifications of slavery and jim crow are gone and we already live in the land of equality...

The parallel is totally invalid.

Jews, as a living group, did not kill Christ. We aren't even sure if there was a Christ, let alone about the circumstances of his death. Furthermore, none of the Jews or Jewish organizations that could theoretically have participated in the death of Jesus are still in existence today.

The state of Virginia did legally uphold slavery. The state of Virginia still exists. We have ample evidence of both.

The PEOPLE of Virginia who are around today don't owe anybody an apology for slavery, because none of them engaged in it. However, the STATE of Virginia did. I wouldn't mind seeing an on-the-record apology for that.

Why should there be an apology via proxy for those who engaged in the past in slavery, and who would not be apologetic considering it was a social normative? Also, considering the overall behaviour of Virginia, especially considering the existence of Affirmative Action programs and several other "equality" institutios, constitutes apologetic behaviour. There is no need to issue a formal apology.

what forced apology are you talking about?
Virginia apologizing for slavery?

and on what planet do you live where people who refuse to apologize for what they have done are believed to be better able to honestly attempt to repair the damage they have caused?
So some one is again insisting that the current elected representatives of Virginia, as well as the constituents that elected them, were alive during slavery and supported it? As well as asserting the Constitution of Virginia is the same one as the one before the Civil War and thusly still supporting slavery.

I can understand that politicians need to listen to their constituents. But if this is the case then put through quickly a "I'm sorry we had slaves" and vote it through. Don't spend time agonizing over it, simply do it and get back to the matter of governing.
Like I said, you don't under the intricacies of public representation. Besides, what does that accomplish? Nothing. The Jews might as well apologize for killing Jesus.


I agree Virginia should apologize for slavery if, and only if, Lionell Spruill, Dwight Jones, Benjamin Lambert, Louise Lucas, and Yvonne Miller (and like members of the Virginia legislature) do the apologizing on Virginia's behalf. If you don't know who those people are, look them up and you will get my point.

yeah, because the ramifications of slavery and jim crow are gone and we already live in the land of equality...

Slavery is a non-issue. It is an illegal practice. Why keep on about it? As for its aftereffects that is something that we have also dealt with. Laws against discrimination have been passed. What we have now are the prejudices in peoples hearts. Can't legislate THAT away. And we do have practical issues to deal with like horrid crime and poverty filled neighborhoods and bad schools that can be tackled instead of looking way back in time and asking for an apology for something that is not something we have to deal with now.

To me those who advocate this sort of thing and only look in the past simply want to excuse how they act today. Their life sucks so blame slavery. Right. Like you have no control over your own life? Have to put the blame on someone or something else. And if your life is bad in the year 2007 then clearly it is the fault of the slaveowners in the 1800's. Yeah. Sure.

Virginia apologizing for slavery?

if they do so it will be voluntarily adopted by the state legislature and the governor. now, some 80 year old racists on the losing side of the vote will probably feel forced, but fuck those assholes.

So some one is again insisting that the current elected representatives of Virginia, as well as the constituents that elected them, were alive during slavery and supported it? As well as asserting the Constitution of Virginia is the same one as the one before the Civil War and thusly still supporting slavery.

nope. merely asserting that the institution 'virginia' is a continuous one, and so the present virginia remains morally responsible for the past.

in addition to that, it is incontrovertible that we are still in need of reconciliation between people over the sins of the past. those that have been aggrieved by those sins think this is a start. it is only practical to go along with it. unless one thinks that black people are not really fully human and their wishes are the random mutterings of lesser beings

Slavery is a non-issue. It is an illegal practice. Why keep on about it? As for its aftereffects that is something that we have also dealt with. Laws against discrimination have been passed. What we have now are the prejudices in peoples hearts. Can't legislate THAT away.

Governments do this thing called diplomacy because apparently it's what people want. If people want an apology from Virginia, we should pretend to be a democratic nation and allow that apology.

Sure, slavery is a non-issue, in the US. As is gassing millions of Jews. But you know, as soon as the Nazis were dead, people didn't just go, "Oh! Well, the Holocaust is now a non-issue!" Why not? Should they have? Maybe the German government shouldn't have apologized for the Holocaust - after all, the people who committed it are not a member of the current government. And Jews should just move on. Right?

To me those who advocate this sort of thing and only look in the past simply want to excuse how they act today. Their life sucks so blame slavery. Right. Like you have no control over your own life? Have to put the blame on someone or something else. And if your life is bad in the year 2007 then clearly it is the fault of the slaveowners in the 1800's. Yeah. Sure.

To me, people who advocate apologizing in general were raised by good parents. And not in barns. You know, it's just sorta a decent thing to do, as a human being.

But you're right, it's all because black people want to blame Virginia for how their life is bad and they have no self-control and want to make excuses for how they act today. Good job. Same with those pesky Jews.

To me those who advocate this sort of thing and only look in the past simply want to excuse how they act today. Their life sucks so blame slavery. Right. Like you have no control over your own life? Have to put the blame on someone or something else. And if your life is bad in the year 2007 then clearly it is the fault of the slaveowners in the 1800's.

yes, i'm sure that is the case with the virginian legislators who proposed this. are you actively trying to sound racist?

if they do so it will be voluntarily adopted by the state legislature and the governor. now, some 80 year old racists on the losing side of the vote will probably feel forced, but fuck those assholes.
Do you know what forced even means?

nope. merely asserting that the institution 'virginia' is a continuous one,
To put it simply, that's fucking retarded. The Constitution of Virginia has been rewritten half a dozen times, as well as who knows how many amendments. Virginia today is not Virginia 1777.

in addition to that, it is incontrovertible that we are still in need of reconciliation between people over the sins of the past.
I've said it a dozen times I will say it how many more it takes to sink in. HORSESHIT. Slavery is over. Jim Crow is over. The only thing left is personal racism and continuously hounding people to apologize for shit they have had to apologize for a thousand times over and also had no part in is just going to further ingrain racism into all sides of the race line.

those that have been aggrieved by those sins think this is a start.
You mean all the dead people? No one alive today was a slave. The end. People alive today may have been affected by legal discrimination, but that too is over and apologizing for slavery isn't apologizing for Jim Crow or legalized racism.


I unless one thinks that black people are not really fully human and their wishes are the random mutterings of lesser beings
Go go gadget straw man!


I also like how all of these "OMG VIRGINIA SHOULD APOLOGIZE" ... people.. are ignoring my conditions for an apology being made.

Were it up to me, I would pass the resolution of appology and have it read by whichever black member of the government is most senior.

This being just about the institution of the state of virginia, and not about race, it would be appropriate I assume for a black person to read the statement of appology.

"I hereby appologize on behalf of the State of Virginia (&c.) for the institution, some century and a half ago, of slavery"

Were it up to me, I would pass the resolution of appology and have it read by whichever black member of the government is most senior.
Which is what I have been suggesting, the collective black membership of the Virginia legislature should apologize on behalf of Virginia for its role in slavery. Of course all the whiners, racists (racism isn't only committed by whites against everyone else), and living-in-the-pastians have been ignoring it.

If they arn't willing to do it, fuck them and fuck the apology. They want to play silly, meaningless games of words, they can play by the absurd rules thusly instated by the games supporters.

I also like how all of these "OMG VIRGINIA SHOULD APOLOGIZE" ... people.. are ignoring my conditions for an apology being made.

we probably just don't want to mention that you appear to be sailing of the racist deep end if you think you have a point there.

Jews did not kill Jesus, Romans did. Still, having me to apologize for slavery would be wrong because I never participated in it and neither did my family.

we probably just don't want to mention that you appear to be sailing of the racist deep end if you think you have a point there.
Do you now know what racism is either? How is that racist?
It is pointing out the absurdity of the apology. To say that Virginia has never changed is absurd and having the black members of the legislature give the apology for the state's more than 140 year ago support of slavery would point out the absurdity of it to people obviously too stupid, or too racist themselves, to get it. Then again, they are stupid and racist, they wouldn't get it anyway.

VA apologizing for slavery is like jews apologizing for christ!?

It's a good analogy, except that slaves were real and Jesus was a mythical creature.

It's a good analogy, except that slaves were real and Jesus was a mythical creature.

I have a brilliant idea.

February 18 will be meaningless apology day.

All former slave states will apologize for slavery.
The Jews will apologize for killing Jesus.
The United States government will apologize for killing and forcing Indians off their land.
The Northern states will apologize for reparations.
The United States will apologize for bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
The black people will apologize for African ancestors selling their own people into slavery.
The Native Americans will apologize for being able to have casinos where gambling is illegal and fleecing people of money.
The white people will have to apologize for killing Jesus, because they are all probably of Roman descent by now.
The United States government will have to apologize for making buffalo an endangered species.
etc etc

How is that racist?

it has more than a hint of "that'll show those darkies their place" to it. in fact, that's all i can see in it.

besides, it was black members of the legislature that wrote the damn thing - in effect, they already fucking have done what you requested. now they want it officially adopted by the state of virginia. you know, how resolutions work.

it has more than a hint of "that'll show those darkies their place" to it. in fact, that's all i can see in it.
Then you, sir, are a bigot.

Then you, sir, are a bigot.

am i the one requiring something outside of normal legislative procedure that intentionally aims to hold black legislators up for scorn over their attempts to promote reconciliation between peoples?

am i the one requiring something outside of normal legislative procedure that intentionally aims to hold black legislators up for scorn over their attempts to promote reconciliation between peoples?
How is it holding black legislatures up for scorn? The only thing that is holding them up for scorn is the fact that they wrote up an apology for the state that they want it to pass. How is that holding them up for scorn? They arn't willing to apologize on behalf of the state themselves. They want to get the white people to do it, therefore making everyone look like racist assholes and proving some intangible point the black agenda can't let go of.

My suggestion is a move in the right direction. It shows the black agenda is willing to recognize that no one alive took part in slavery and that they are able to move forward and stop relying on a crutch of "blame slavery" for any of their current or future problems.

If this is about the institution of Virginia offering a formal apology, it should be absolutely neutral whether black or white legislators write and deliver the apology.

Even the faintest suggestion or hint that anything at all is amiss with it being an all-black endeavor indicates that there is more to the apology than the institution of the state of Virginia.


"white people" isn't an institution, and the white people who owned slaves are all dead now. No apology can be demanded from anyone in their stead.

If this is about the institution of Virginia offering a formal apology, it should be absolutely neutral whether black or white legislators write and deliver the apology.

nobody has to deliver anything. in so far as there will be a delivery of anything at all, it would be done by the person who already occupies the position of reading resolutions into the record. and to suggest that it should be done by somebody else 'to prove a point' is stupid. and when that point appears to be 'lookit the blacks being foolish', it can be nothing other than racism.

The parallel is totally invalid.

Jews, as a living group, did not kill Christ. We aren't even sure if there was a Christ, let alone about the circumstances of his death. Furthermore, none of the Jews or Jewish organizations that could theoretically have participated in the death of Jesus are still in existence today.

The state of Virginia did legally uphold slavery. The state of Virginia still exists. We have ample evidence of both.

The PEOPLE of Virginia who are around today don't owe anybody an apology for slavery, because none of them engaged in it. However, the STATE of Virginia did. I wouldn't mind seeing an on-the-record apology for that.
The Government of the state of Virginia are represetatives of the people, and therefore any aplogy made by them would be the same as saying the people are apologizing.