NationStates Jolt Archive

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(


:rolleyes:


Coming out? Oh please, being an atheist isn't taboo man.

Coming out? Oh please, being an atheist isn't taboo man.

Um... yes, it can be.

she need to wake an see the world

Um... yes, it can be.


Where? Dumbfucksville?:D

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

Your mother needs to learn to tollerate other beliefs.

Where? Dumbfucksville?:D

IF that means pretty much everywhere except NSG, then yes. :(

There was another story like this a few months ago, though I have no idea now by whom, so I won't be able to find it.

I'll tell you the same I told the other person: Your belief system isn't your mom's issue. Try and tell her that her piety isn't questioned by your lifestyle, and that you won't try to "convert" her. She'll go to heaven either way, and you take full responsibility what happens to your immortal soul (you always have to use their vocabulary, though don't make it too obvious or she'll point out that you don't believe in an immortal soul and you'll have precisely the argument you're trying to avoid...). Make sure she understands that you consider religion a private matter, and then try to avoid the topic in the future.

As for NSG, just make sure she understands that you can't punish anyone into being religious, and even if you could, Jesus wouldn't want it.

And, even though you shouldn't quote Bible Verses at her because it's just gonna make her angry...remember Matthew 6:5 and 6:6

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

Us? Twist your brain?! NEVER! :p

But on a serious note, your sister sounds like a cow and your mother like a twat. Don't mean to offend, actually I do.

Where? Dumbfucksville?:D
The United States of America, but you are pretty close. :p

I'll share my story...
[conversation about semi-religious relatives]
Me: Well, I'm an atheist, so [something]
Mother: Okay.
[conversation resumes]
Not particularly spectacular, but I suspect they're closet agnostics anyway.

That sucks. Please don't leave us. :(

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(


Mine were never that religous anyway. The father never believed a word of it - he just didn't mention the fact round us. Even the mother isnt that convinced.

Us? Twist your brain?! NEVER! :p

But on a serious note, your sister sounds like a cow and your mother like a twat. Don't mean to offend, actually I do.

You can be very oddly right sometimes, though I nver you before yesterday.

The United States of America, but you are pretty close. :p

I'll share my story...
[conversation about semi-religious relatives]
Me: Well, I'm an atheist, so [something]
Mother: Okay.
[conversation resumes]
Not particularly spectacular, but I suspect they're closet agnostics anyway.

That sucks. Please don't leave us. :(

Hey don't be that cruel, just say "the deep south". All of US is going a bit far.

Thats the most absurd thing I've heard all day. Tell her its your choice and your free to believe in what ever you like. Failing that show her the strength of your conviction by burning down her local church (unless its a Catholic Church).

The United States of America, but you are pretty close. :p

I'll share my story...
[conversation about semi-religious relatives]
Me: Well, I'm an atheist, so [something]
Mother: Okay.
[conversation resumes]
Not particularly spectacular, but I suspect they're closet agnostics anyway.

That sucks. Please don't leave us. :(

I don't wanna leave. This is my home. :(

Though I don't think my mom is really goign to kick me off NS... well, there's realy no way she can.... :p

Surely this isn't "coming out" so much as "being outed." :p

IF that means pretty much everywhere except NSG, then yes. :(

we don't give a shit here, just work hard ,go by the laws you be fine
love my Nation

She's pulling the plug off NSG for you, huh? :( There are ways around this. Just categorically deny everything your sister has said to your mom. Or claim it is a big joke, even. If you don't want to do that, wait till whenever college comes for you to resume business as usual.

Thats the most absurd thing I've heard all day. Tell her its your choice and your free to believe in what ever you like. Failing that show her the strength of your conviction by burning down her local church (unless its a Catholic Church).

We haven't gone to church in a year. More than that actually.

And I'm not burning down churches, that'll make me look more like a Satanist rather than an atheist.

She's pulling the plug off NSG for you, huh? :( There are ways around this. Just categorically deny everything your sister has said to your mom. Or claim it is a big joke, even. If you don't want to do that, wait till whenever college comes for you to resume business as usual.

In four years?

We haven't gone to church in a year. More than that actually.

And I'm not burning down churches, that'll make me look more like a Satanist rather than an atheist.

or the kkk

I wuv my mummy n daddy. They're both Atheists. But I still get grilled 'cause my idea's for "converting" christians are Too "extreme".

You can be very oddly right sometimes, though I nver you before yesterday.

Oddly right? C'mon give me more credit than that:p

Yesterday...yes, of course... ;)

I wuv my mummy n daddy. They're both Atheists. But I still get grilled 'cause my idea's for "converting" christians are Too "extreme".

Do they involve burning down churches and eating babies? :p

Oddly right? C'mon give me more credit than that:p

Yesterday...yes, of course... ;)

Well I don't recall seeing you before yesterday (unless you're someone that I haven't seen for a while...?) and it was very odd that you were so right.... :eek:

Do they involve burning down churches and eating babies? :p

More like a holocaust or an anti-theist crusade.

In four years?
:( Well, you better pray... uh never mind. Joking aside, stay strong if you do get cut from the source. The years will fly fast. If it gets really bad, try projecting your beliefs on the rest of your family.

My parents are both agnostic, although my mum seems to keep a bit of the religion in her.

Actually, when I'm around my mum, I'm constantly grilling Christanity and as my dad said "I was a Christian when I was your age"

More like a holocaust or an anti-theist crusade.

Close enough. :p

:( Well, you better pray... uh never mind. Joking aside, stay strong if you do get cut from the source. The years will fly fast. If it gets really bad, try projecting your beliefs on the rest of your family.

:(

Could you threaten to convert to Islam?

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

:eek: How dare you not believe everything your parents, a bunch of old men and a 2000 year old book says. For shame. How dare you consider more valid (in my opinion, I don't mean to offend) viewpoints.

Jokes out of the way, it sucks that your family isn't more understanding. Where you ever as faithful as them, because in my experience when someone becomes an Atheist their faith was pretty weak to start with (like me :D ).

Well I don't recall seeing you before yesterday (unless you're someone that I haven't seen for a while...?) and it was very odd that you were so right.... :eek:

Clues in the name

"I'm getting one of those things! You know, a headache with pictures!"
"An idea?"
"Yeah!"

Be loudly atheist and shove your beliefs in their face all day long. Push your parents far enough to do something like lock you up for a couple of days without food, then call the ACLU. That'll shut them up. :p

I remember that I said something like "If you don't go to church, I won't go there as well! My soul is not more fragile than ours" to my parents when I was rather young. They punished me (I do not remember how, I think did not let me go to my grandparents on that weekend).

"I'm getting one of those things! You know, a headache with pictures!"
"An idea?"
"Yeah!"

Be loudly atheist and shove your beliefs in their face all day long. Push your parents far enough to do something like lock you up for a couple of days without food, then call the ACLU. That'll shut them up. :p
Err... no thanks... :eek:

Err... no thanks... :eek:
*mutters*
It's still better than burning down churches. :p

Clues in the name

I'm not getting anything....

*mutters*
It's still better than burning down churches. :p

I'd rather see some more.... peaceful.... options. :eek:

I'm not getting anything....

Aw, better not go any further, lest anyone actually guess my idenity. I'm sure some one must've, otherwise you guys aren't as smart as I thought:p

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

Ahh I'm so sorry to hear that Darknovae.

My stories are relatively uninteresting as my parents tend to just take everything in their stride. When I dabbled in wicca they just wanted to make sure I wasn't joining a satanistic or "self harm" cult. When they saw that it was a fairly run of the mill Nature/God-Goddess based group they were fine with it (even though they were still Catholic at the time) They themselves have now changed religion to a non descript Paganistic theme, not wicca but similar. I myself have my very own personal set of beliefs which I have outlined in other threads and won't bore the community with reposting them here.

I'd rather see some more.... peaceful.... options. :eek:
Unless you were working on a flat tax proposal and you accidentally disproved the existence of God, then there aren't a whole lot of peaceful options :(

And if this really is your Last NSG Supper, I'd like to be the first to say I'll miss you. *hugs you* I don't know you, but I do care for you. It's the principle, you understand. :fluffle:

Unless you were working on a flat tax proposal and you accidentally disproved the existence of God, then there aren't a whole lot of peaceful options :(

And if this really is your Last NSG Supper, I'd like to be the first to say I'll miss you. *hugs you* I don't know you, but I do care for you. It's the principle, you understand. :fluffle:

Thanks :fluffle:

Aw, better not go any further, lest anyone actually guess my idenity. I'm sure some one must've, otherwise you guys aren't as smart as I thought:p

Liberated New Ireland?

*mutters*
It's still better than burning down churches. :p

to me all they are is just one more building

Liberated New Ireland?

Not last time I checked, keep trying, as I said, clues in the name. Specifically the first word...

The United States of America, but you are pretty close. :p

At least it wasn't in an Islamic theocracy, or he could be hanging from a noose.

Not last time I checked, keep trying, as I said, clues in the name. Specifically the first word...

Nobel Hobos?

Nah... I saw both of you in the same thread....

At least it wasn't in an Islamic theocracy, or he could be hanging from a noose.

If you're saying I'd be hanging from a noose, I'm a she. :)

If you're saying I'd be hanging from a noose, I'm a she. :)

My bad.

If you're saying I'd be hanging from a noose, I'm a she. :)

Poor Darknovae, after a thread (well at least one that I've seen), many complaints and corrections and a mention in her sig. People still get it wrong. But we must forgive the newbie.

Nobel Hobos?

Nah... I saw both of you in the same thread....

It'd be easier if you logged onto MSN...;)

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

Darknovae, do me a favor and get your mother to read this message:

Ma'am, I'm not an atheist to begin with, so I will assume you are willing to read this. Even assuming you measure a person's worth based on their religion - which would take you to the dangerous path Germany followed in 1934 - suspend it for now. Listen to my words, not to me.

I will assume, for the sake of the argument, that you are a Christian. Was not Christ persecuted? Was he not denied the right to his beliefs due to Rome's intollerance? More importantly, was he not a voice for tolerance? If you persecute your own child for what he or she believes in, what makes you different from the Romans of that time - according to the Bible, the book you - assuming, again, you're a Christian - value? Is it that you're his or her mother, and, thus, they should obey you? It is impossible to obey in belief, and - even if it was acceptable to force belief on someone else regardless of their status as one's child, like the Romans did to Christians, it is impossible to order belief. Is not your god a loving one? Is not your god one of tolerance? Is not your god a GOOD god? A god that would be willing, then, to give His grace to those that do GOOD, regardless of their religious affiliation? Is not your child GOOD? Was it not Satan that promoted the idea of "you gain if you pledge allegiance to me" as opposed to God's "you gain if you pledge allegiance to good" principle? The "atheist" ideas were not in here. We have occultists, atheists, fundamentalist Christians, normal Christians, Muslims, and others, not unlike America. Atheism is the conclusion your child reached. If God wants, I'm pretty sure He'll change this soon enough. But the notion that your child will suffer for a belief he or she holds is a notion that would be espoused not by God, but by Satan.

Regards,

Heikoku.

We haven't gone to church in a year. More than that actually.
Given this it's very odd that she should be so annoyed. I'm sure she will come around and learn to tolerate you. She might even try to educate you, rationally and patiently, back into God's way.

Though if you are persecuted, at least you will have that piece of righteousness.

Poor Darknovae, after a thread (well at least one that I've seen), many complaints and corrections and a mention in her sig. People still get it wrong. But we must forgive the newbie.

i don't if i can

It'd be easier if you logged onto MSN...;)

Sel Appa? :eek:

Poor Darknovae, after a thread (well at least one that I've seen), many complaints and corrections and a mention in her sig. People still get it wrong. But we must forgive the newbie.

Yes... poor newbie...

:fluffle: I'm a very forgiving Pancake.

Sel Appa? :eek:

No, no, no, no, no!

I assume you have logged in? Because if you have you're not showing up as logged in on my list:(

Coming out? Oh please, being an atheist isn't taboo man.At least it's a "coming out" of the dark ages of mental retardation.

No, no, no, no, no!

I assume you have logged in? Because if you have you're not showing up as logged in on my list:(

I'm logged in now, Hobo. :p

At least it's a "coming out" of the dark ages of mental retardation.

I didn't fully understand Christianity when I was still a Christian. Then when I did understand it I lost my faith.

I'm logged in now, Hobo. :p

In that case, do me the favor of getting your mother to read my earlier post.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12125299&postcount=53

I'm logged in now, Hobo. :p

;)

In that case, do me the favor of getting your mother to read my earlier post.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12125299&postcount=53
That's good. I approve.

That's good. I approve.
The real trick is getting Mommy to read it and accept it.

Pancake nooo!!!

Hopefully your mother comes around to be reasonable and accepting that other people will come to different conclusions regarding the nature and existence of gods.

But, as this might be the last chance I get. :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

Well, I guess that's okay. I was always an atheist. Your mother seems like a b---h, so you have my sympathy.

Well, just don't listen. Just live your life normally. Besides, you got friends here.

(Pats Darknovae sympathetically)

I became an atheist when I was 13. I had done all those stupid rituals in church. I went to a catholic school and also went to those seminars where you learn about baby jesus, the church, bible and stuff like that.

But when I was a kid, my favorite thing was dinossaurs (yes, I was a geek child). So, someday when I was 12 or so, I looked at the dinossaurs, looked at the bible, and realized both couldnt be true. So, gathering my knowledge and guts, I just quited the church and became an atheist.

Which was kind of hard, because my parents were really connected with the cristian comunity, and sometimes there were gatherings in my house. Yes, even the priest of the comunity came here. So, I had to, lets say, work to quit all that and stop going to church.

But, well, I do think my cristian upbringing and education was good. That gave me enough information to be sure god doesnt existed outside people´s heads.

How can she kick you off NSG? Do it at the library.

Where? Dumbfucksville?:D

Dumbasscus. Fun little city.

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back.

did she have any halfway decent arguments?

I didn't fully understand Christianity when I was still a Christian. Then when I did understand it I lost my faith.

keep looking, you walked the same path I did. (except my parents didn't know about my lost of faith.) but after a moment of... sans faith, you may be hit with some clarity.

as for your mother, well, tell her that you met all sorts of followers of Christianity on the boards as well as those who don't. you even met some who did loose their faith (like you) but once again found it. ;)

back into God's way

Ignorance, hypocrisy, and hatred?

keep looking, you walked the same path I did. (except my parents didn't know about my lost of faith.) but after a moment of... sans faith, you may be hit with some clarity.

as for your mother, well, tell her that you met all sorts of followers of Christianity on the boards as well as those who don't. you even met some who did loose their faith (like you) but once again found it. ;)

Oh for the love of God, JuNii is going sappy on us...

AHH!!!!

It's turning into an episode of 7th Heaven now! NO!

*is in fetal position in corner*

The horror... the horror...

:D

That's all I had to say.

Oh for the love of God, JuNii is going sappy on us...

AHH!!!!

It's turning into an episode of 7th Heaven now! NO!

*is in fetal position in corner*

The horror... the horror...

:D

That's all I had to say.
*pats Seangoli on the head*

could be worse... It could degrade down to either "Picket Fences" or *gasp* "Barney and friends"!

:D

Us? Twist your brain?! NEVER! :p

But on a serious note, your sister sounds like a cow and your mother like a twat. Don't mean to offend, actually I do.

Well, all brains are supposed to be twisted. It's how they fit inside the skull. Like the intestines, if they were rolled out they'd be over 30 feet long. If the Cerebral Cortex were ironed out it would be a large squishy yoga mat. If a brain can fit inside the skull w/o being twisted, there's something very wrong with it.

assuming that you cant bring yourself to do what any other 14 year old at the mercy of her parents would do, namely LIE....


get a relative or other adult who your mother respects talk to her about you being 14 (almost 15!) and needing to find your own way. your mother is being irrational (wow who ever would have seen that one coming?) and needs someone to put her back on the path of good parenting.

You should lie. Assure her that you're not really an atheist. You believe in god. Then tell her you're converting to Satanism or Islam or some other controversial religion.

*pats Seangoli on the head*

could be worse... It could degrade down to either "Picket Fences" or *gasp* "Barney and friends"!

:D

...

*gets up*

Well, with that shock in mind, I think I can handle JuNii's real-life 7th Heaven shpeal. I can handle that.

Oh, and before I forget:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPpSlCX3ghc

Had to be done.

I'm sorry you're getting such a hard time. :( I've spoken to a few people who've been in your position and one thing which always seemed to go down well was offering to read a book defending their religion. It shows willing and might give your mum time to calm down while you're reading it.

Plus the evil infidels of NS will help you to shred any arguments the book makes. ;)

I realy do fell sorry for you. It would be a shame to lose someone over a sillf tiff like that.

Both my parents are atheist. So are my friends.

Personally I'd tell her it wasn't her place,and it was your own decision.It's your life,you lead it.

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

congratulations welcome to freedom from ignorance.....be prepared for discrimination and being shunned but feel proud that you took the step and that there millions(actually more than a billion) more out there just like you.... and still 10's of millions more who are afraid to come out but they will eventually......

Let's try and get the mother to listen to us instead of bashing her and making my work harder?

There was another story like this a few months ago, though I have no idea now by whom, so I won't be able to find it.
Yeah, that was me (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=504438).

Darknovae, I'd suggest you do as I did: ignore it. You're unlikely to change you're mom's mind, so just mellow out, continue being a good person, and be secure in the knowledge that you are doing what is right.

Now, if she does challenge your beliefs again, or really does try to pry you away from NSG, then, by all means, fight back. Have a debate. Challenge her beliefs in a logical way. You have friends here, good friends, and separating you from that because of her irrational fears would be just as bad as forbidding you from associating with friends of a different race or religion in RL. And that is absolutely unacceptable.

Meh. Don't feel bad. My parents weren't exactly thrilled when I told them I am Muslim. I just never considered it important because the Qur'an warns of people who will try to take you away from Allah.

the Qur'an warns of people who will try to take you away from Allah.

so does the bible. so does every religion.

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

Try telling her that her kicking you off a place you enjoy writing on (which is not harmful* and actually improves your reading and writing skills) because of a religion is hardly gonna make you convert back to that religion. Try also reminding her you respect her choice to be [insert religion] so why can't she respect your choice?

What religion is she by the way?

*There have indeed been some posts on here suggesting bad things - but unlike certain other message boards (such as biased religious ones), there have been plenty of statements to counter negative views - therefore try reminding her it's impossible for such a varied place to twist your brain when there are so many different opinions there that it's virtually impossible for one view to twist your brain.

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(
Wow, I wonder if your mother knew mine.

:p Just kidding, but seriously, I understand how you feel.

My mother gave me the gears when I refused to go to church the one time she decides that we all have to go because we can only pay our respects to the memory of my Yaya (her mother) at the church...

I told her I refused to go, and that I didn't believe in that shit and that I am an atheist. She then told me that I wasn't that because it's such a harsh word and that I do not know what I'm talking about. She then added that I'm an agnostic because I am unsure about God.

I told her that I was an atheist and that I wasn't an agnostic...

This was in the weeks before I had walked out of her house and refused to talk to her for months.

lie to her, tell her that you aren't an atheist but that you are exploring belief and right now haven't decided on what's right........tell her that you want to make sure your faith is your own and not just something you picked up from your culture.

;)

*yes, Smunkee just told you to lie, but it could turn out to be the truth......sorta.

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

Hey, that's an unfair correlation! I twisted your brain plenty and I'm christian! :p

If you need support, you could try the atheist forums on beliefnet or any of the other athiest sites on the web (BNet has a relatively non-confrontaional group compared to some of the others.)

Of course if your family is fundy, you're in for a rough road.

*yes, Smunkee just told you to lie

Are we supposed to be surprised?

lie to her, tell her that you aren't an atheist but that you are exploring belief and right now haven't decided on what's right........tell her that you want to make sure your faith is your own and not just something you picked up from your culture.

;)

*yes, Smunkee just told you to lie, but it could turn out to be the truth......sorta.

:eek:

:eek:

It's okay, just because smunkee is a traitorous bastard doesn't mean our plan for Vorld Domination is over. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

lie to her, tell her that you aren't an atheist but that you are exploring belief and right now haven't decided on what's right........tell her that you want to make sure your faith is your own and not just something you picked up from your culture.

;)

*yes, Smunkee just told you to lie, but it could turn out to be the truth......sorta.

good advice, it may be better to bide your time until you're older and can defend yourself.....worse case scenario you're in a fundy family and they do something to reprogram you, forced seclusion in theist brainwashing facility.....

good advice, it may be better to bide your time until you're older and can defend yourself.....worse case scenario you're in a fundy family and they do something to reprogram you, forced seclusion in theist brainwashing facility.....

Well I didn't want to come out last night, my sister forced me to. I would have waited until I was older, but no, my sister had to go and rat me out. :(

I didn't fully understand Christianity when I was still a Christian. Then when I did understand it I lost my faith.

Reading the bible is the best way to lose faith in christianity.


Unlike most christians, many atheists have read the bible, often cover to cover, not to mention many other religious texts. Many came to atheism by searching for a "true" religion and finding none they became atheist by default. If your family hasn't been to church in over a year, I'm willing to bet part of your mother's reaction is fear in the knowledge that her faith is pretty weak to begin with. Keep your discussions rational and keep your tone even. If she blows up, calmly tell her you'll be willing to discuss it when she's calmed down. Hopefully she'll notice that you are being rational and she, hysterical, and begin thinking about her own faith rather than worrying about yours.

Well I didn't want to come out last night, my sister forced me to. I would have waited until I was older, but no, my sister had to go and rat me out. :(
Your sister sounds like the sort of person who would enjoy doing that a great deal.

Your sister sounds like the sort of person who would enjoy doing that a great deal.

She did it because I told about her vandal friend (though I thought Mom already knew :() and because I'd ratted her out 2 years ago. :mad:

Reading the bible is the best way to lose faith in christianity.


Unlike most christians, many atheists have read the bible, often cover to cover, not to mention many other religious texts. Many came to atheism by searching for a "true" religion and finding none they became atheist by default. If your family hasn't been to church in over a year, I'm willing to bet part of your mother's reaction is fear in the knowledge that her faith is pretty weak to begin with. Keep your discussions rational and keep your tone even. If she blows up, calmly tell her you'll be willing to discuss it when she's calmed down. Hopefully she'll notice that you are being rational and she, hysterical, and begin thinking about her own faith rather than worrying about yours.

I get the distinct feeling she won't take me seriously. :(

I get the distinct feeling she won't take me seriously. :(

Good for you, that way you can maintain your enlightened beliefs with less seriously applied opposition.

Good for you, that way you can maintain your enlightened beliefs with less seriously applied opposition.

I just wish she'd take me seriously and stop trying to convert me back.

We're going to a candlelight service tomorrow night, and I didn't even realize unti lnow. :(

Well I didn't want to come out last night, my sister forced me to. I would have waited until I was older, but no, my sister had to go and rat me out. :(
got only one word for her

Reading the bible is the best way to lose faith in christianity.


Unlike most christians, many atheists have read the bible, often cover to cover, not to mention many other religious texts. Many came to atheism by searching for a "true" religion and finding none they became atheist by default. If your family hasn't been to church in over a year, I'm willing to bet part of your mother's reaction is fear in the knowledge that her faith is pretty weak to begin with. Keep your discussions rational and keep your tone even. If she blows up, calmly tell her you'll be willing to discuss it when she's calmed down. Hopefully she'll notice that you are being rational and she, hysterical, and begin thinking about her own faith rather than worrying about yours.

i had no need to read it from cover to cover to work out it was full of shit

I get the distinct feeling she won't take me seriously. :(
here
:fluffle: :fluffle:

:rolleyes:


Coming out? Oh please, being an atheist isn't taboo man.

Down south where she lives it is...

Er...turn it around and try to "unconvert" your mom!

So you're an atheist. Boo hoo. We already know your atheist. I mean your into polygamy. Silly mother in laws......

So you're an atheist. Boo hoo. We already know your atheist. I mean your into polygamy. Silly mother in laws......

What the fuck are you talking about? I don't remember Darknovae being into polygamy, plus she isn't married. I mean she's like 14. Unless she's a member of a weird cult.

Seriously though, being athiest is horrible in the south. Same with being gay. And being black if you have sex with a white woman. Or just being black maybe. And don't even consider being a gay black athiest having sex with a white woman.

So you're an atheist. Boo hoo. We already know your atheist. I mean your into polygamy. Silly mother in laws......

:p

Only on NS. :D

What the fuck are you talking about? I don't remember Darknovae being into polygamy, plus she isn't married. I mean she's like 14. Unless she's a member of a weird cult.

Seriously though, being athiest is horrible in the south. Same with being gay. And being black if you have sex with a white woman. Or just being black maybe. And don't even consider being a gay black athiest having sex with a white woman.

Dude, if you've got sigs turned on, you'd know what Londim was talking about. :p

But it's only on NS, I'm not into it in RL.

What the fuck are you talking about? I don't remember Darknovae being into polygamy, plus she isn't married. I mean she's like 14. Unless she's a member of a weird cult.
>.>
<.<

Seriously though, being athiest is horrible in the south. Same with being gay. And being black if you have sex with a white woman. Or just being black maybe. And don't even consider being a gay black athiest having sex with a white woman.
I think all the hatred aimed at a gay black man having sex with a white woman would simply force him out of existence.

I just wish she'd take me seriously and stop trying to convert me back.

We're going to a candlelight service tomorrow night, and I didn't even realize unti lnow. :(

I don't know what sect you belong to some sects will do nothing but have a chat with you others will go all out and try to reprogram you, to save your soul... here are few common techniques used to break down your resistance that I know of....1-they will never leave you by yourself , someone will be around you every waking hour 2-peer pressure, empathy suddenly you'll feel everyone is your friend 3-send you away to a bible camp where you can't escape and really turn on the psychological pressure....

my advice keep quiet, tell them you're really an agnostic and want to explore other religious options...once you're an adult come out full time....

I don't know what sect you belong to some sects will do nothing but have a chat with you others will go all out and try to reprogram you, to save your soul... here are few common techniques used to break down your resistance that I know of....1-they will never leave you by yourself , someone will be around you every waking hour 2-peer pressure, empathy suddenly you'll feel everyone is your friend 3-send you away to a bible camp where you can't escape and really turn on the psychological pressure....

my advice keep quiet, tell them you're really an agnostic and want to explore other religious options...once you're an adult come out full time....
Sadly, I can see the third one happening..... :(

And the first one... :(

My dad's left me alone, but my mom thinks that if I do anything Christian then I'll go psycho like that girl in the Excorsist (or whatever.... :confused:). :rolleyes:

Dude, if you've got sigs turned on, you'd know what Londim was talking about. :p

But it's only on NS, I'm not into it in RL.

lot
me here and in RL

I don't know what sect you belong to some sects will do nothing but have a chat with you others will go all out and try to reprogram you, to save your soul... here are few common techniques used to break down your resistance that I know of....1-they will never leave you by yourself , someone will be around you every waking hour 2-peer pressure, empathy suddenly you'll feel everyone is your friend 3-send you away to a bible camp where you can't escape and really turn on the psychological pressure....

my advice keep quiet, tell them you're really an agnostic and want to explore other religious options...once you're an adult come out full time....

It's too late to say I'm agnostic. :(

I just wish she'd take me seriously and stop trying to convert me back.

We're going to a candlelight service tomorrow night, and I didn't even realize unti lnow. :(

She is taking you seriously. tell her that faith is a personal choice, it's between you and God and no one else. if need be, tell her that her persistance is doing nothing but pushing you away.

Tell her to pray for you but a struggle of faith, is a personal struggle, and that all she can do is pray and wait.

>.>
<.<


I think all the hatred aimed at a gay black man having sex with a white woman would simply force him out of existence.

Why wiuld a gay man have sex with any woman?

Though my ex is half-black and bisexual... :eek:

What the fuck are you talking about? I don't remember Darknovae being into polygamy, plus she isn't married. I mean she's like 14. Unless she's a member of a weird cult.

Seriously though, being athiest is horrible in the south. Same with being gay. And being black if you have sex with a white woman. Or just being black maybe. And don't even consider being a gay black athiest having sex with a white woman.

You failed at humour :(

Why wiuld a gay man have sex with any woman?

Though my ex is half-black and bisexual... :eek:

to see what's it like

>.>
<.<


I think all the hatred aimed at a gay black man having sex with a white woman would simply force him out of existence.

I've always wanted to see someone literally have holes shot in them by piercing glares.

She is taking you seriously. tell her that faith is a personal choice, it's between you and God and no one else. if need be, tell her that her persistance is doing nothing but pushing you away.


Do you realize how funny it is to tell an athiest that their faith is between them and god?

Why wiuld a gay man have sex with any woman?

Though my ex is half-black and bisexual... :eek:
Your average right-wing nut wont know the differance.

I not you havent been removed from NSG yet. Have things calmed down?

You failed at humour :(

:(

Oh. I see the polygamy thing. I see the purdy sigs now.

>.>
<.<


I think all the hatred aimed at a gay black man having sex with a white woman would simply force him out of existence.

black man having sex with a white woman makes me sick and mad

Do you realize how funny it is to tell an athiest that their faith is between them and god?
she was a believer.
her mother is trying to bring her back to the fold.
she wants her mother to accept her decision, she also doesn't want to be preached to every day.

and if her mother's preaching is also pushing her away, telling her (the mother) just may get her to stop.

she was a believer.
her mother is trying to bring her back to the fold.
she wants her mother to accept her decision, she also doesn't want to be preached to every day.

and if her mother's preaching is also pushing her away, telling her (the mother) just may get her to stop.

Yeah, what you said.

You should tell them you've though it better and that now you believe in god again... as a Muslim!

Just for giggles.

It's too late to say I'm agnostic. :(

hey, you're 14 you are allowed to change your mind, accept a little pressure and pull back to being an agnostic...that'll gain you some time and breathing space...play the game but always be in charge(just let them think they are winning)....

Wow...my mom's cool with me. My dad though absolutely hates it and tried to beat me up...then he was told my social services that he can't coherce with me.

Why wiuld a gay man have sex with any woman?

Though my ex is half-black and bisexual... :eek:
I'd avoid Alabama if I were you. Then again, I'd avoid Alabama anyway.
black man having sex with a white woman makes me sick and mad
Sucks to be you then.

it's important not create a rift in your family if at all possible, given time most parents come to accept it.....though there are those that will shut out their own children out of their lives, extreme but it happens...

Yeah, what you said.

I'm assuming you want to handle it with as little hurt feelings on both sides.

get her to pray for you, but tell her that this is your spiritual struggle and one that you need to work out with God.

God is patient, he will let you go your own way and he will wait till you find your faith.

Wether or not you actively search for your faith or you are steadfast in your decision to do without faith, it's your choice and your decision. Anyone who tries to "Push" you into a decision may end up pushing you to the opposite choice.

if she persists, point her to Luke 15:11-32, even his father stood back to allow his son the freedom to make his own choices.

Where? Dumbfucksville?:D

Believe it or not, you isloated generalist, there are places in this world where religion is taken quite seriously. You may have heard of places like Northern Ireland, Lebanon, Gaza -- the Sunnis and Shi'ites are killing one another over who "inherited" the title of Prophet's Heir after Mohammed died, for fuck's sake.

So let's try to keep our ugly, provincial horseshit under our hats, huh? Darknovae isn't looking for an ignorant cheering section, she's looking for help. Calling her relatives "dumbfucks" for believing the way they do isn't going to help anyone -- in addition, you're probably doing more harm than good if NSG is one of the deciding factors in the conflict her mother feels over her daughter's declared atheism.

So yes, it CAN be a taboo. Think about the situation and about something besides your own opinions for half a second, please.

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

I have never "come out" to my parents about anything. I'm just honest with them about my beliefs if they ask, and sometimes we debate them, but not with the intention of converting each other to the "right" side.

That's because my parents want me to be independent. They want me to think for myself, explore the world I live in, learn about it. They both did a lot of searching in coming to their current beliefs (they are both very devoutly religious and politically conservative).

Speaking as a young adult that benefited a great deal from my parent's wisdom, what I would tell your mother is this: do not stifle your child's intellectual growth. Discuss her beliefs, debate them, learn about them, but do not punish them. Encourage her to do more research, to consider more arguments. Give her a chance to grow.

Maybe your daughter won't believe the same as you do, but that's alright. Maybe your daughter will be smarter than you, but that's alright. It's a poor parent who doesn't want their child to grow beyond what they themselves have managed.

And just so you know this isn't an atheist group-think, I'm a devoutly religious and politically conservative person myself.

Hey don't be that cruel, just say "the deep south". All of US is going a bit far.

Popular misconception.

"Religiosity" or rampant fundamentalism or whatever you want to call a religion that preaches Christ while missing many of his larger points in order to make themselves feel righteous and superior is not excusively the domain of the "deep South". Not only are there folks across this great land (and globe) willing to judge you for anything from sexual orientation to the books you read, but there are folks in the "deep South" who, while being faithful, are far from religious and will extend the blessed hand of hospitality to anyone who comes in peace.

Generalizations get people hurt, and do nothing to solve anyone's problems.

I'd avoid Alabama if I were you. Then again, I'd avoid Alabama anyway.

Sucks to be you then.

if you know what i get up to you would not say that

You missed your chance. You should have led with "Mom, I'm gay." Then followed that up, after reviving her from the faint, with, "Well, no not really, but I am an athiest."

Of course, if you had've come out as gay there would be a warm welcoming community to give you hugs (and hugz), ice cream, and maybe even a pair of pink pumps to wear home afterwards. Or a toaster oven. ;)

ahem. Okay. Seriously just let your mom know that there are plenty of smart people on the forum, including a goodly number of Christians (Smunkee and Lunatic Goofballs come to mind immediately), and that your continued exposure to said people will be good for you in the long run.

Well after a particularly philosophically disgusting church day, I finally revealed my atheism..........suprisingly three of my friends felt the same way and we havent been back since.

if you know what i get up to you would not say that

I'm confident that whatever it is that you're getting up to I'd stand by my assessment.

Darknovae, do me a favor and get your mother to read this message:

Ma'am, I'm not an atheist to begin with, so I will assume you are willing to read this. Even assuming you measure a person's worth based on their religion - which would take you to the dangerous path Germany followed in 1934 - suspend it for now. Listen to my words, not to me.

I will assume, for the sake of the argument, that you are a Christian. Was not Christ persecuted? Was he not denied the right to his beliefs due to Rome's intollerance? More importantly, was he not a voice for tolerance? If you persecute your own child for what he or she believes in, what makes you different from the Romans of that time - according to the Bible, the book you - assuming, again, you're a Christian - value? Is it that you're his or her mother, and, thus, they should obey you? It is impossible to obey in belief, and - even if it was acceptable to force belief on someone else regardless of their status as one's child, like the Romans did to Christians, it is impossible to order belief. Is not your god a loving one? Is not your god one of tolerance? Is not your god a GOOD god? A god that would be willing, then, to give His grace to those that do GOOD, regardless of their religious affiliation? Is not your child GOOD? Was it not Satan that promoted the idea of "you gain if you pledge allegiance to me" as opposed to God's "you gain if you pledge allegiance to good" principle? The "atheist" ideas were not in here. We have occultists, atheists, fundamentalist Christians, normal Christians, Muslims, and others, not unlike America. Atheism is the conclusion your child reached. If God wants, I'm pretty sure He'll change this soon enough. But the notion that your child will suffer for a belief he or she holds is a notion that would be espoused not by God, but by Satan.

Regards,

Heikoku.

Aaaaaand CUE THE WEEPING VIOLINS!

Nice try, but could you tone down the melodrama and self-important condescension next time?

You missed your chance. You should have led with "Mom, I'm gay." Then followed that up, after reviving her from the faint, with, "Well, no not really, but I am an athiest."

Of course, if you had've come out as gay there would be a warm welcoming community to give you hugs (and hugz), ice cream, and maybe even a pair of pink pumps to wear home afterwards. Or a toaster oven. ;)

ahem. Okay. Seriously just let your mom know that there are plenty of smart people on the forum, including a goodly number of Christians (Smunkee and Lunatic Goofballs come to mind immediately), and that your continued exposure to said people will be good for you in the long run.

:p

I <3 NSG. Everyone's supportive, even (probably especially!) the Christians on here. :)

I didn't even realize LG was a christian :p

Dumbasscus. Fun little city.

Now that's clever.:D

You missed your chance. You should have led with "Mom, I'm gay." Then followed that up, after reviving her from the faint, with, "Well, no not really, but I am an athiest."

Of course, if you had've come out as gay there would be a warm welcoming community to give you hugs (and hugz), ice cream, and maybe even a pair of pink pumps to wear home afterwards. Or a toaster oven. ;)

ahem. Okay. Seriously just let your mom know that there are plenty of smart people on the forum, including a goodly number of Christians (Smunkee and Lunatic Goofballs come to mind immediately), and that your continued exposure to said people will be good for you in the long run.

Continued exposure to Lunatic Goofballs will solve many problems. Among the problems it won't solve is getting tackled, being charged with public indecency and being coated in mud permanently(though you won't see these things as problems)

Continued exposure to Lunatic Goofballs will solve many problems. Among the problems it won't solve is getting tackled, being charged with public indecency and being coated in mud permanently(though you won't see these things as problems)

:p

Being tackled isn't a problem to me, as long as you're just playing around :) (and you don't break anything...)

Let's try and get the mother to listen to us instead of bashing her and making my work harder?

"Your work"? Who are you, the Conversion Fairy or something? This thread isn't about you, son.

Now that's clever.:D

Why thank you.

:p

Being tackled isn't a problem to me, as long as you're just playing around :) (and you don't break anything...)

Wait we CAN'T break anything....:eek: :p

Dumbasscus. Fun little city.

:D

Wait we CAN'T break anything....:eek: :p

I was talking bones... that was to be a very innocent little comment :(

This is, though, why I love NS :D

:p

Being tackled isn't a problem to me, as long as you're just playing around :) (and you don't break anything...)

Nah, LG wouldn't hurt a pancake. He might throw mud at you, but he throws mud at everything.

Nah, LG wouldn't hurt a pancake. He might throw mud at you, but he throws mud at everything.

Mud I don't mind so much either, provided I'm not in my band uniform at that moment. :(

I was talking bones... that was to be a very innocent little comment :(

This is, though, why I love NS :D

NS is a place that holds little or no innocence :p

NS is a place that holds little or no innocence :p

:p

:p

I <3 NSG. Everyone's supportive, even (probably especially!) the Christians on here. :)

I didn't even realize LG was a christian :p

Um...he's never made a secret of it. And the spreading of peace, love, and good clean fun would have been a great tip-off. ;)

Mud I don't mind so much either, provided I'm not in my band uniform at that moment. :(

Murphy's Law suggests that that's exactly when you'll get completely covered in mud, and not a minute before.

Mud I don't mind so much either, provided I'm not in my band uniform at that moment. :(

Of course, you realize, that you just gave them the most opportune time to sling mud at you... :D

Um...he's never made a secret of it. And the spreading of peace, love, and good clean fun would have been a great tip-off. ;)

I never saw any of his posts that said he was a Christian. Ah well, I still <3 LG anyway.

:fluffle: to you, LG, Smunkee, Londim, and Zarakon. :fluffle:

I never saw any of his posts that said he was a Christian. Ah well, I still <3 LG anyway.

:fluffle: to you, LG, Smunkee, Londim, and Zarakon. :fluffle:

Hooray for Fluffles!:fluffle:

Of course, you realize, that you just gave them the most opportune time to sling mud at you... :D

But then he'll get kicked in the nuts by the band director :p

Nah, LG wouldn't hurt a pancake. He might throw mud at you, but he throws mud at everything.

or get the CIA and the men in white coats after you as they think you know were he is

I'd avoid Alabama if I were you. Then again, I'd avoid Alabama anyway.
Hey, watch it! Not all of us are like that...

or get the CIA and the men in white coats after you as they think you know were he is

The men in white coats have stopped wearing white coats when they come after me, which is so unfair. How else am I meant to recognise them?

But then he'll get kicked in the nuts by the band director :p

Really... he can run that far?

*loads Trebuchet with mud*

It's okay, just because smunkee is a traitorous bastard doesn't mean our plan for Vorld Domination is over. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

do you have some sort of problem that I can help you with?

Hey, watch it! Not all of us are like that...

Sorry, just making with the funneh :fluffle:

The men in white coats have stopped wearing white coats when they come after me, which is so unfair. How else am I meant to recognise them?

not you too :eek:
they still after me thinking i know were LG is

not you too :eek:
they still after me thinking i know were LG is

They're after me too. :(

yep...at first i was convinced buddhism was for me....and i sayed that....i got immidiantly told "anyone in this house follows my relgion" and a bunch of crap....i changed my mind....talked to some preachers...became agnostic instead :)....story of my religion....i get picked on at school...its a catholic school....but then i just say "at least im not a sexist cannibal":p

not you too :eek:
they still after me thinking i know were LG is

They're after me for what I did to Pedro too. So are a bunch of animal rights groups. And a strange person caling himself the Son of Sam.

Silly peoples. Those guys in white coats are after all of us NSGers. They want my headphones aswell, my precious.....

They're after me too. :(
:fluffle: they still not got you
They're after me for what I did to Pedro too. So are a bunch of animal rights groups. And a strange person caling himself the Son of Sam.

you are doom if he after you

I never saw any of his posts that said he was a Christian. Ah well, I still <3 LG anyway.

:fluffle: to you, LG, Smunkee, Londim, and Zarakon. :fluffle:

Why am I getting fluffles? I haven't really given you advice or anything. Oh well.

Wish you luck


:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Silly peoples. Those guys in white coats are after all of us NSGers. They want my headphones aswell, my precious.....

guys in white coats ,they are just some of the people looking for me

Mm my precious......I say we use splurdge guns against these people who chase us so

you are doom if he after you

That's what they said about his father, Sam.

That's what they said about his father, Sam.
Not Sam!
http://alts.homelinux.net/shots/49-0.jpg
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Not Sam!
http://alts.homelinux.net/shots/49-0.jpg
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Not that one, a less terrifying one.

Where? Dumbfucksville?:D

Essentially;)

edit: This is for if you're Christian - what religion are you? Sorry but I don't want to read all the pages to see if you said taht somewhere else before I asked

Have a look through the Old Testament (especially Exodus) and show her a few bad passages to demonstrate why you think Christianity is a load of crap. This page may also help: http://************/5zrvt

And here's a copy of a letter I sent to some Jewish website (Jews believe in five books of the Old Testament) [edit: forgot to mention, Jews consider it wrong to write down the word God, so I used G-d instead and also missed out the vowels in the name Jesus]:

I have been reading your website (http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm ) and have noticed that you make it clear that circumcision is not, as widely believed, practiced by Jews for hygiene or medical reasons and that it is in fact practiced in line with a commandment from G-d as clearly stated in Genesis and Leviticus, despite the people who claim that circumcision is harmful (obviously it is physically harmful at the time of it being carried out as it is extremely painful, but I am of course referring to long-term effects). Obviously for one to be accepted by the rest of their religious brothers and sisters as being part of that religion, it is important to adhere to the requirements of that religion – for example, a person couldn’t go around deliberately spreading hate and claim to be Christian when J-s-s stated that one of the two most important commandments is to ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’, but I was just wondering what your opinion is on other commandments that could cause controversy – do you also follow them and advocate the following of them, and if not, what is your reason? I refer to commandments such as:

Leviticus 25:44, which states that you should have slaves. Do you have slaves, and how do you treat them?

Leviticus 15:19 which commands you not to have any physical contact with a woman who is menstruating – if you follow this obligation, how do you tell whether a woman is menstruating? Do you ask them, and how do they respond (especially as you would have to ask every day to be certain) or do you just avoid touching women completely?

Exodus 35:2, which clearly states that anyone who works on the Sabbath (Shabbat) should be killed – would you kill him/her yourself or is a Rabbi required to perform this?

Leviticus 19:27, which expressly forbids cutting the hair – have you ever have a haircut, and if so, have you repented of this sin? If you have ever had a haircut, why have you ignored this commandment?

Leviticus 19:19, which states that you are not allowed to wear garments made of more than one material (e.g. A cotton-polyester blend) – do you observe this? If not, are you currently preparing to be stoned to death as G-d requires as a punishment for you (Leviticus 24:14)? Have you ever stoned anyone in response to this commandment, and if so, how did killing another person make you feel – was it a terrible experience or was it a joyful one as you were observing a religious requirement set by G-d?

Deuteronomy 13:13-19, which commands you to kill unbelievers. When you also burn the city as these passages require, do you use petrol to make it burn faster or is that against your environmental ethics?

Thank you for reading this. I await your informative reply.

Have a look through the Old Testament (especially Exodus) and show her a few bad passages to demonstrate why you think Christianity is a load of crap. This page may also help: http://************/5zrvt

And here's a copy of a letter I sent to some Jewish website (Jews believe in five books of the Old Testament):

I have been reading your website (http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm ) and have noticed that you make it clear that circumcision is not, as widely believed, practiced by Jews for hygiene or medical reasons and that it is in fact practiced in line with a commandment from G-d as clearly stated in Genesis and Leviticus, despite the people who claim that circumcision is harmful (obviously it is physically harmful at the time of it being carried out as it is extremely painful, but I am of course referring to long-term effects). Obviously for one to be accepted by the rest of their religious brothers and sisters as being part of that religion, it is important to adhere to the requirements of that religion – for example, a person couldn’t go around deliberately spreading hate and claim to be Christian when J-s-s stated that one of the two most important commandments is to ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’, but I was just wondering what your opinion is on other commandments that could cause controversy – do you also follow them and advocate the following of them, and if not, what is your reason? I refer to commandments such as:

Leviticus 25:44, which states that you should have slaves. Do you have slaves, and how do you treat them?

Leviticus 15:19 which commands you not to have any physical contact with a woman who is menstruating – if you follow this obligation, how do you tell whether a woman is menstruating? Do you ask them, and how do they respond (especially as you would have to ask every day to be certain) or do you just avoid touching women completely?

Exodus 35:2, which clearly states that anyone who works on the Sabbath (Shabbat) should be killed – would you kill him/her yourself or is a Rabbi required to perform this?

Leviticus 19:27, which expressly forbids cutting the hair – have you ever have a haircut, and if so, have you repented of this sin? If you have ever had a haircut, why have you ignored this commandment?

Leviticus 19:19, which states that you are not allowed to wear garments made of more than one material (e.g. A cotton-polyester blend) – do you observe this? If not, are you currently preparing to be stoned to death as G-d requires as a punishment for you (Leviticus 24:14)? Have you ever stoned anyone in response to this commandment, and if so, how did killing another person make you feel – was it a terrible experience or was it a joyful one as you were observing a religious requirement set by G-d?

Deuteronomy 13:13-19, which commands you to kill unbelievers. When you also burn the city as these passages require, do you use petrol to make it burn faster or is that against your environmental ethics?

Thank you for reading this. I await your informative reply.

Roflcopter, Multiland.

I'll tell you the same I told the other person: Your belief system isn't your mom's issue. Try and tell her that her piety isn't questioned by your lifestyle, and that you won't try to "convert" her. She'll go to heaven either way, and you take full responsibility what happens to your immortal soul (you always have to use their vocabulary, though don't make it too obvious or she'll point out that you don't believe in an immortal soul and you'll have precisely the argument you're trying to avoid...). Make sure she understands that you consider religion a private matter, and then try to avoid the topic in the future.

To Darknovae:

I completely disagree with NL. I think that you will belittle both your mother's beliefs and her motherly instinct. I was raised in a very Christian family and many of them know that I am an atheist, but there is a serious concern for my well being. They know that I am a good person as well, and they are worried that I may be condemning myself to hell. To switch this over to your mother's "piety" you will at the same time insult her faith and her desire to take care of you. I imagine that would make her upset.

I think the best thing you can do is to explain to her why you came to this decision and emphasize that this is not some sort of rebellion. Make sure she knows that you are the same person you were before.

My coming out has been of my own volition, luckily for me. My mother was upset about it, but she respected my decision (or decided that she wasn't going to be able to change my mind). Some of my closer family members even joke around about it, calling me an atheist, saying that I "only believe in science" and the like.

I imagine your situation will blow over soon enough. Good luck.

Here's another idea (this is if your family is Christian): Remind them that if you have been Baptised, then you're going to heaven, so there's no need for anyone to be concerned for your welfare. (Acts 2:38, which says you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost if you're Baptised)

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

I did that in eighth grade.
My friends started to try to convert me to Christianity, and they've been pissed at me since, though they've gotten better.
My mom's Mormon, but my dad's agnostic, so she really didn't care. Yay.
At least you know your mom worries about your spiritual health and whatnot, instead of not giving a shit until it makes her blood pressure go up.

:rolleyes:


Coming out? Oh please, being an atheist isn't taboo man.

Woman.

Darknovae- Sex female, gender pancake.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

To Pancake:

I think you are fine as an atheist. Or any sort of -theist really.

(I, of course, conscribe to some sort of monotheist type thing, but to each his own... so long as force and fraud are not parts of it.)

If your mother doesn't, well, too bad. She is missing out on a nice person (and her own daughter) because of some dogmatic ideas of Olde.

"Your work"? Who are you, the Conversion Fairy or something? This thread isn't about you, son.

I know it isn't, but do you really think insulting DN's mother will work to try and get her to come around?

Aaaaaand CUE THE WEEPING VIOLINS!

Nice try, but could you tone down the melodrama and self-important condescension next time?

As opposed to what, exactly?

I know it isn't, but do you really think insulting DN's mother will work to try and get her to come around?

Well how likely is it that Pnacake is going to convince her mother to read a thread on the forum that she thinks turned her daughter into an atheist?

Well how likely is it that Pnacake is going to convince her mother to read a thread on the forum that she thinks turned her daughter into an atheist?

Not at all...
if my mom thought NSG turned me into a lesbian, she'd shoot me and then the computer.

Not at all...
if my mom thought NSG turned me into a lesbian, she'd shoot me and then the computer.

Your mother would shoot you for being a lesbian? What a fucking bitch.


Or do you mean she would shoot you for being so goddamn stupid as to let a couple folks on the internet change your ENTIRE sexual orientation?

Your mother would shoot you for being a lesbian? What a fucking bitch.


Or do you mean she would shoot you for being so goddamn stupid as to let a couple folks on the internet change your ENTIRE sexual orientation?

If I thought I'd turned someone on the intarwebs gay I'd hunt them down and shoot them for their stupidity myself.

Your mother would shoot you for being a lesbian? What a fucking bitch.


Or do you mean she would shoot you for being so goddamn stupid as to let a couple folks on the internet change your ENTIRE sexual orientation?

The first one if I'm butch, the second if I'm not...she's told me this several times.

As a father of a teenage girl (a little younger than yourself) I would never try to force my beliefs (or the lack thereof) on my daughter, or any of my children.

If she keeps giving you a hard time tell her you are gay too and the resulting heart attack will take care of the problem ;)

In all seriousness I hope your mom does not try to keep you away from NS as your leaving would be a great loss to our community.

Don't sweat it too much dear Pancake, your mom will get over herself eventually.

That sucks, don't know what I would do. Religion isn't inherently evil, but dogma will fuck over a family in no time.

The first one if I'm butch, the second if I'm not...she's told me this several times.

Are you a lesbian?

And...your mom's incisting (Fuck, can't spell) that if you're a lesbian, you must be a lipstick lesbian?

Are you a lesbian?

And...your mom's incisting (Fuck, can't spell) that if you're a lesbian, you must be a lipstick lesbian?

I'm bi though she doesn't know that...closer to lesbian than straight, though.
And yes, she abhores butch lesbians apparently.

I'm bi though she doesn't know that...closer to lesbian than straight, though.
And yes, she abhores butch lesbians apparently.

Who doesn't? Hot lesbians always ftw.;)

Who doesn't? Hot lesbians always ftw.;)

I'm not hot, so...bleh.
She reminds me of that, too.

I'm not hot, so...bleh.
She reminds me of that, too.

But I never understood butch lesbians. If you like girls, then why do you like them to be manly? Unless you just like dudes with vaginas.:p

But I never understood butch lesbians. If you like girls, then why do you like them to be manly? Unless you just like dudes with vaginas.:p

Break out the metrosexuals!!!

I know it isn't, but do you really think insulting DN's mother will work to try and get her to come around?

DN? My name gets abbreviated now?

Wow. :eek: :D

DN? My name gets abbreviated now?

Wow. :eek: :D

Better than OJ. :(

Better than OJ. :(

:p

:p

Sorry for turning religion into lesbians...my b.

Better than OJ. :(

QFT!

DN? My name gets abbreviated now?

Wow. :eek: :D

Well, think of it this way: people know who the hell you are!

( cant say the same for me :sad: ).

Sorry for turning religion into lesbians...my b.

Forgiven. Everyone's been really supportive, so a little spam and threadjacking is okay. :)

:fluffle:

Forgiven. Everyone's been really supportive, so a little spam and threadjacking is okay. :)

:fluffle:

Yay!
I do extend my condolences in all seriousness.

Forgiven. Everyone's been really supportive, so a little spam and threadjacking is okay. :)

:fluffle:

A little (fuffle) spam is needed for stress relief.

But back on subject...

Good luck DN.

A little (fuffle) spam is needed for stress relief.

But back on subject...

Good luck DN.

Wow. First I get sigged by 3 different people, then my name gets abbreviated.

:fluffle:s for all!

:fluffle:
:fluffle:

Wow. First I get sigged by 3 different people, then my name gets abbreviated.

:fluffle:s for all!

:fluffle:
:fluffle:

I even made a puppet for your NS region! :fluffle:

Better than OJ. :(

Sorry I don't have photoshop.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/samforgy/iFOUTCASTJESUITSDIDIT.jpg

I think this bears repeating, as final, irrevocable proof I have to much free time.

I even made a puppet for your NS region! :fluffle:

My NS region is full of my puppets! :p :fluffle:

If I get kicked off NS, I will cry. :(

If I get kicked off NS, I will cry. :(

Wait, I must have missed it: your parents know of NSG?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/samforgy/iFOUTCASTJESUITSDIDIT.jpg

I think this bears repeating, as final, irrevocable proof I have to much free time.

Wait, I must have missed it: your parents know of NSG?

Yes, the computer is in a very public area of the house so everyone's seen me spamming a couple times. :p

But anyway... my mom thinks that I'm going to go like that Excorsist chick if we go to the candlelight service. :rolleyes:

I don't wanna leave. This is my home. :(

Though I don't think my mom is really goign to kick me off NS... well, there's realy no way she can.... :p

This is your home? I don't know what home environment you live in and I don't know nor pretend to know how you should live your life, but hear this. Nationstates isn't your family and no impersonal thing comprised of strangers can come anywhere close to a family.

Don't turn your back on your family. Leave nationstates alone for a few days and sit down with your mom to find some sort of resolution. You'd probably be able to get on within the next week or so anyway.

Yes, the computer is in a very public area of the house so everyone's seen me spamming a couple times. :p

But anyway... my mom thinks that I'm going to go like that Excorsist chick if we go to the candlelight service. :rolleyes:

She thinks your possessed?

Holy...shit. That's weird.

Yes, the computer is in a very public area of the house so everyone's seen me spamming a couple times. :p

But anyway... my mom thinks that I'm going to go like that Excorsist chick if we go to the candlelight service. :rolleyes:

Mayeb you need to tell her of the non-militant atheists out there.

And get a more private computer. :p

Mayeb you need to tell her of the non-militant atheists out there.

And get a more private computer. :p

I will soon. :D

It'll either be the old old computer (the one whose hard drive we need to erase completely :() or this one (the one I am using now). Ain't the laptop though. :(

And I'm not a militant atheist, I'm not militant at all.

She thinks your possessed?

Holy...shit. That's weird.

Yeah...... O.o

I will soon. :D

It'll either be the old old computer (the one whose hard drive we need to erase completely :() or this one (the one I am using now). Ain't the laptop though. :(

And I'm not a militant atheist, I'm not militant at all.

Irony: as I posted about privacy, my dad walks by and asks about the forums.

Karma FTW!

Irony: as I posted about privacy, my dad walks by and asks about the forums.

Karma FTW!

:p

Irony: as I posted about privacy, my dad walks by and asks about the forums.

Karma FTW!

Whenever someone asks me what I'm doing, I just tell them I'm watching people get pissed off about the news and religion.

:p

You laugh now, but when you make fun of someone running into a parked car and then ride your bike into one, dont come cryin to me! :p

You laugh now, but when you make fun of someone running into a parked car and then ride your bike into one, dont come cryin to me! :p

:p

I'm an atheist, but...her house, her rules.

...As an atheist, I'm not gay or anything. MY sister ratted me out.

My mom instantly flipped out, and was all like "I can't believe you! When did this happen? Why don't you believe in God? I think the people on NationStates twisted your brain!"

She promptly began to challenge me, trying to convert me back. :mad:

And she's considering kicking me off NSG. :( :( :(

Any coming-out stories (of the religious sort)? Post em quick, I wanna see them before I go :(

My parents didn't say much. I don't know what they'll say if I tell them I'm bisexual, but my dad might be confused.

My mother still doesn't believe I'm an atheist, and I can't be bothered to correct her any longer.

Do what atheists have done for ages: do all the necessary whatnot whilst the pagans are about, the pro forma demonstration of faith, and keep your own beliefs. Forcing religion on people is, regrettably, a time-honoured human tradition; sometimes all that can be done is keeping your head down and faking it.

As for your sister, there are many pranks to get back at her, which I'll leave to wiser people to describe.

Why do you even have to tell people you are an athiest? Does it come up in conversation that often?

i had the opposite - i remember my father explaining to me when i was 5 and about to go to school for the first time that other kids parents make up ghost stories and fairy tales about 'god' because they're weak-minded and need a security blanket

just in case i got converted, i guess...

i had the opposite - i remember my father explaining to me when i was 5 and about to go to school for the first time that other kids parents make up ghost stories and fairy tales about 'god' because they're weak-minded and need a security blanket

just in case i got converted, i guess...

So? I still have my blankie and I also keep a rifle in my room. :D

I'm an atheist, but...her house, her rules.
"Her rules" do not extend into your mind, I hope.

And I'm not a militant atheist, I'm not militant at all.

i highly recommend militancy. it's fun and makes people look dead sexy.

So? I still have my blankie and I also keep a rifle in my room. :D

im not saying i believe what he told me, just telling my story

it was a bit of a heavy load to put on a 5yo kid i think

and lacking context for what he'd told me, i went off to school and promptly got in a lot of trouble for repeating what he'd said

i had the opposite - i remember my father explaining to me when i was 5 and about to go to school for the first time that other kids parents make up ghost stories and fairy tales about 'god' because they're weak-minded and need a security blanket

just in case i got converted, i guess...

Holy crap I love your dad, in a non-platonic way.

I think.

Do what atheists have done for ages: do all the necessary whatnot whilst the pagans are about, the pro forma demonstration of faith, and keep your own beliefs. Forcing religion on people is, regrettably, a time-honoured human tradition; sometimes all that can be done is keeping your head down and faking it.


lol. I know more than a few Christians that do that...

Holy crap I love your dad, in a non-platonic way.

I think.

Good edit. I was going to ask what Pluto had to do with love.

Um...he's never made a secret of it. And the spreading of peace, love, and good clean fun would have been a great tip-off. ;)

Since when is mud-slinging good, clean fun?

Holy crap I love your dad, in a non-platonic way.

I think.

i really wish he'd given me a bit more to work with though - basically he was just as dogmatic as the 'small-minded people who brainwash their kids with fear' he warned me about
he didn't (ever) rationally explain his own 'rational empiricism'
and he didn't ever allow me to be exposed to 'faith' to make up my own mind

so i'm 100% atheist - absolutely no spirituality at all - i've adopted the old sods' rational empiricism and find it impossible to believe in *anything* intangible

and often it feels like a loss

i really wish he'd given me a bit more to work with though - basically he was just as dogmatic as the 'small-minded people who brainwash their kids with fear' he warned me about
he didn't (ever) rationally explain his own 'rational empiricism'
and he didn't ever allow me to be exposed to 'faith' to make up my own mind

so i'm 100% atheist - absolutely no spirituality at all - i've adopted the old sods' rational empiricism and find it impossible to believe in *anything* intangible

and often it feels like a loss

Ah, you realise adding that last bit makes you sound like you sometimes wish you were not 100% atheist?

to see what's it like

My friend is gay and told me sex with a woman isn't pleasant because they're 'too squishy'.

My friend is gay and told me sex with a woman isn't pleasant because they're 'too squishy'.LOL!

Ah, you realise adding that last bit makes you sound like you sometimes wish you were not 100% atheist?

sometimes i *do* wish i weren't 100% atheist, yes

which is not the same thing as wanting to join a formal religion...

but i'm damned (pun intended) if i can make a 'leap of faith' when all i know is what i can see, because by definition we *can't* know god
faith is believing without proof - when i can't believe in *anything* that can't be proved, it can be a very cold, dark and lonely world i live in


...no i'm not emo, why do you ask?

sometimes i *do* wish i weren't 100% atheist, yes

which is not the same thing as wanting to join a formal religion...

but i'm damned (pun intended) if i can make a 'leap of faith' when all i know is what i can see, because by definition we *can't* know god
faith is believing without proof - when i can't believe in *anything* that can't be proved, it can be a very cold, dark and lonely world i live in


...no i'm not emo, why do you ask?

Gee... All I can say is that I know how that feels, but that's a bit cliched: the whole Christian saying: "I was like that, but then I saw the light thing."

Well I had to get in on this; I know exactly how you feel my parents did the same thing to me... Also to those of you that replay as saying being Atheist isn't taboo or anything like that, well all I have to say is it is. In fact in present day society many people are so under educated about religion that when you say the words Atheist many people reply, and seriously reply, you worship the devil? Now back to the subject at hand I must ask have you parents tried the guilt trip? For instance the one I hear most often is "How will you feel when all of the people who you love, and love you back, go to heaven and you don't?" Its amazing how well that one sentence irked me, along with how well it reaffirmed my beliefs in Atheism. Every time I would here it all I could think was what religion is worth believing in if you have to be guilt tripped into it, every time my parents, or anyone else for that matter, would try to persuade me into converting I would get the felling that they were trying to get me to join in a cult. In fact the humor in that is for the most part present day humanity has twisted religious beliefs, most that of Christianity, into the form of a cult. Back when Christianity was first formed it was mans way of creating a feeling of worth, a way of knowing that there was something out there assuring them that everything would be all right. This was fine, because to be honest most of humanity needs that feeling to properly function in society, and in that time period the need was even greater, now though its become another source of money, and power. Mans greed has turned something beautiful into a secretly corrupt system. Of course I must give examples to back up this statement, and I will.

Lets start with church, right in my opinion church is one of mans greatest sins brought through greed, when the bible was originally written it stated that to be a good Christian all you needed to do was follow the 10 commandments and worship god within the sanctuary of your own being, and when I say god I do not mean Jesus Christ, nothing irks me more than people who associate Christianity with the worship of Jesus Christ. For the record, Jesus Christ is rather new in comparison with God, and the origins of Christianity are God not Jesus. Anyways, back to church, now the original idea of worship inside the sanctuary of ones self was a good one, but then came along some smartass (Romans to be exact, though they weren’t the first Jews and Islam’s were but that’s a different form of Christianity that we aren’t talking about) with the idea that you could pull all of those people into a building and preach to them what was right in front of their faces, and collect donations off of it saying that its the will of God and the proper thing for a good Christian to do (prove me wrong any of you bastards who are offended by this because I guarantee you there are always a few who do). Which if you think about it how many Pastors and Priests do you think really care about all of man, lets look back into the past, who in the past has been allowed into churches along with giving the upper hand in most situations of class and dignity? White protestants, (and no for the record I am not black, Mexican, or Asian, I am white and can still be sickened by the injustices of my predecessors) now lets think about that, that in turn makes the ancient church racist, and even though its been a long time, the last time I read the bible I did not see anything in there about racial segregation. Now sure this may have changed in modern day times, but the foundations were set that way and that’s what im getting at. Now what’s next on the menu?

How about preaching in the schools, even though in most states this is now illegal, it is very, VERY common. In fact my younger sister (she’s a little over 14, not that its an important fact) came home not too long ago, feeling bad that she did not believe in god because her teacher had criticized and downed her beliefs. Needless to say that teacher is no longer employed and currently undergoing several law suits, but that’s not important. Now I’m not saying that that anything with underlying Christian ideals should be banned from schools, in fact I was very pissed to find out that many schools in California have banned an absolutely wonderful piece of literature by the name of “Lord of the Fly’s,” solely due to the fact that some atheist asshole decided that due to its underlying Christian ideals, and the laws that state religion is not aloud to be preached on a school campus, that he should sue the district and get it removed from said districts. Now that’s just too far, there is a difference between teachings telling students their beliefs and books with “Ideals.” Well that’s enough about schools, but wait there is more!

Its time for religious battles! The 1v1 brawls that have spawned ages, this is probably the most absurd thing about religion, and the biggest evidence of what man can do to a once beautiful thing. Its probably what drove me away the most, the whole my religions right, no mine is argument just never ends. I always get comments like “So what happens when I go to heaven and you don’t? Your willing to take that chance?” Its gotten to the point now where I just reply with “And what about that Buddhist monk over there? What happens when he gets reincarnated and you don’t? Are you willing to take that chance?” Which is where the normal “No, no, no, that’s way different” argument comes in and I just leave. It’s hideous what we will do to prove our point that were right, I mean Jesus look at the crusades, how many people had to die so that some egotistic male could be right? There are just so many fields to show how absurd religion has become in our “modern day society,” wars, grants, scholarships, and tax right offs… take Mormons for example, could you imagine having to donate a portion of your paycheck to the church? Well that’s all Ill write for now, its late and as much as I would love to give more examples, I’m getting rather tired and besides the more I write the less most will read ;) . So for tonight I’m done, Good night all, Merry Christmas, and I look forward to replying to all the hate mail I normally end up getting lol :D

Ouch thats longer than I thought it would be lol........ lol I should have titled it QUOTE THIS JERKS!

Have you ever heard of paragraphs... ?

Ouch thats longer than I thought it would be lol........ lol I should have titled it QUOTE THIS JERKS!

The responses to that comment would cover a page or two, smothering and overshadowing all posts that were unfortunate enough to be caught between them.

Bah.

I was lucky. Mom & Dad couldn't give a shit less who I worship, so long as no one got hurt in the process. I "came out" as an atheist when I was... 7, I think. I told my dad that there was no heaven and there was nothing after we died. It took me nearly 4 years to finally embrace the void (much more traumatic than actually inadvertantly telling my father I was an atheist [Not that I knew what one was] was).

As much as I go in for the "Tell them to fuck themselves and walk away" direction for dealing with the shocked and horrified, I suppose that doesn't work to well with parents.

The easy way out is to just ignore them and keep living, regardless of their bullshit. The hard way out is to tell them that, hey, it's really none of their business whether you worship Toga, the Sorority-Bimbo Queen, or Satan, and to stick with that.

Not that that does too much good. But hey, make it an issue of trust. If they can't trust you well enough to take care of your own immortal soul, how are they going to trust you with the responsibility of driving, or taking care of yourself when you leave home? You're a teenager, and you should make it clear that part of having pre-adult responsibilities is that you have to be able to take responsibility for them too.

Gee... All I can say is that I know how that feels, but that's a bit cliched: the whole Christian saying: "I was like that, but then I saw the light thing."

huh?

<snip>

Unless I'm mistaken, right about in the middle of that post (type(thingy)) you said that Jews and Muslims were Christians. Ummm.... Not quite. And you can't really call any of those religions in their own right, more like broad groupings of religions. Just the way I read it. And the way I see it.