NationStates Jolt Archive

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

So if you don't like it, but it's harmless and gives many people enjoyment, sit down and shut up. I'm not saying you should do this for things that actually matter. Don't sit down and don't shut up about the iraq war.

But do sit down and shut up about porn.

Sorry, I had to rant.

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

I don't really understand this part of the analogy.

depends what kind of porn it is and how it's portrayed. i can't go into details without breaking the PG-13 restriction really.

but you are right at a fundamental level, both men and women in porn are merely objects. the differences are in the details. and also the fact that the majority of people viewing porn are men who, while the male porn actors are objects, will not actively be objectifying male actors.

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.


Ah, the whole, "It's bad for you because we say it is" bit.

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble.

How does it make them non-humble? Aside from being scientifically and physically inaccurate, having the most ridiculous and trashy plots, etc., none of it actually degrades them -- provided they consented to all of the actions anyway.

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.

How so? Is it because they do not meet the standard you set for them?

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble.Precisely what do you mean by this?

Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.

How?

and also the fact that the majority of people viewing porn are men who, while the male porn actors are objects, will not actively be objectifying male actors.

It is estimated that one-third to one-half of the $2.5 billion adult industry is gay sales and rentals. Mickey Skee. 1997. "Tricks of the Trade." Frontiers 16 (August 22):43.

Don't ask why I was readi..

Anyway, so it's about equal, even if Wikipedia can be completely inaccurate.

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.

Porn? not humble?

Usually you see alot of actors/actresses on their knees and crying out to God...

how can that not be humble? :p

i agree

those who feel that porn is demeaning to women seem to me to be coming from the idea that women are the victims of sex. that men take sex from women. even that the only time that women participate in sex is when they have to.

so to see a woman in a porn movie enjoying the kinky sex she is having is somehow showing her in a bad light. (not that they arent pretty unrealistic in their portrayal of sexual relationships but thats not the point, neither are romance novels) no woman would willingly do THAT and to suggest that a woman would is to degrade her.

it seems to me that its as bad a view of women as that of men who think that a woman's only value is in her sexual service to him.

now, porn can demean SEX (i suppose) by portraying is as a carnal act rather than a spirtual joining of 2 (married) lovers. by having it be a commodity to be bought and sold.

Sure, its demeaning. It reduces a person who supposively has a brain and a personality to simply a sex object. How can this be anything but negative? This applies to both men and women.

How so? Is it because they do not meet the standard you set for them?
Because women should be seen and not heard. And under no circumstances should they enjoy sex out of wed- lock. [/sarcasm]

Men and women in porn are consenting adults that know full well what they are getting into. I'm a woman and I love my porn stash. Sure it objectifies women, it objectifies men as well. It's equal opportunity objectification.

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.

You're a muslim, though. On Western matters, you don't have an opinion.

Don't ask why I was readi..

Anyway, so it's about equal, even if Wikipedia can be completely inaccurate.

yeh, but when we are talking about porn beng degrading or not to women we aren't talking about gay porn are we?

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.

No. Really. Keep it up. This is excellent stuff.

You've been a muslim for what, six weeks now, I'm sure that's long enough to go out and tell over 50% of the planet's population to 'be humble'.

@OP, depends on the porn, and depends on the woman. (Or man, as the case may be).

I don't really understand this part of the analogy.

Bad example. But still.

yeh, but when we are talking about porn beng degrading or not to women we aren't talking about gay porn are we?

I don't think you got the point of the thread.. :p

i agree

those who feel that porn is demeaning to women seem to me to be coming from the idea that women are the victims of sex. that men take sex from women. even that the only time that women participate in sex is when they have to.

so to see a woman in a porn movie enjoying the kinky sex she is having is somehow showing her in a bad light. (not that they arent pretty unrealistic in their portrayal of sexual relationships but thats not the point, neither are romance novels) no woman would willingly do THAT and to suggest that a woman would is to degrade her.

it seems to me that its as bad a view of women as that of men who think that a woman's only value is in her sexual service to him.

now, porn can demean SEX (i suppose) by portraying is as a carnal act rather than a spirtual joining of 2 (married) lovers. by having it be a commodity to be bought and sold.

your point is true for porn that shows women actually enjoying it. there is much that does not. there is also much that implies the woman was tricked into doing the movie (i know it's probably acting but it's the set-up i'm talking about here) through the offer of money or whatever.

I don't think you got the point of the thread.. :p

call me stupid, but how does gay porn degrade women exactly? :confused:

call me stupid, but how does gay porn degrade women exactly? :confused:

The thread is about how it's equally degrading to men and women.

You were saying men weren't objectified so much.. =\

your point is true for porn that shows women actually enjoying it. there is much that does not. there is also much that implies the woman was tricked into doing the movie (i know it's probably acting but it's the set-up i'm talking about here) through the offer of money or whatever.

those movies demean the viewer.

call me stupid, but how does gay porn degrade women exactly? :confused:

It shows that there are actually men out there that don't think of women as sex objects. :D

those movies demean the viewer.

this is true also

It shows that there are actually men out there that don't think of women as sex objects. :D

Who ever thought these men existed? :p

The thread is about how it's equally degrading to men and women.

You were saying men weren't objectified so much.. =\

well the porn that feminists, and others who argue that porn is degrading to women, are talking about is generally straight porn. straight porn is equally objectifying of men and women on a fundamental level. however, once the 'story' starts to build, in straight porn if there is going to be uneven ojectification and demeaning of a person, or persons, in the film more often than not it will be the woman.

It shows that there are actually men out there that don't think of women as sex objects. :D

heh!

Sure, its demeaning. It reduces a person who supposively has a brain and a personality to simply a sex object. How can this be anything but negative? This applies to both men and women.

So? We objectify people for what they do and not who they are all the freaking time. Actors are objectified. Sports stars are objectified. Runway models are objectified. Manual laborers are objectified. The so called "elite" are objectified. Members of other religions, ethnic groups, sexual orientations, nationalities, political beliefs, professions etc., etc. are objectified. Porn is different how?

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

So if you don't like it, but it's harmless and gives many people enjoyment, sit down and shut up. I'm not saying you should do this for things that actually matter. Don't sit down and don't shut up about the iraq war.

But do sit down and shut up about porn.

Sorry, I had to rant.


So if someone only was interested in screwing you because you were attractive.....

i dont think y'all are understanding the argument

its not that it might be demeaning to be IN a porn movie. that depends on the particular shoot.

the argument is that it demeans ME (your mom, your girlfriend, all women )that porn movies exist in the world.

well the porn that feminists, and others who argue that porn is degrading to women, are talking about is generally straight porn. straight porn is equally objectifying of men and women on a fundamental level. however, once the 'story' starts to build, in straight porn if there is going to be uneven ojectification and demeaning of a person, or persons, in the film more often than not it will be the woman.

Well, then, you are just watching the wrong sort of porn sir.

the argument is that it demeans ME (your mom, your girlfriend, all women )that porn movies exist in the world.
I hardly see how that's the case.

Porn isn't demeaning to women as a whole, just the women in them specifically.

I hardly see how that's the case.

well. porn reduces women to sex objects in the eyes of men. being reduced to a sex object is demeaning.

what would a feminist care if a particular woman decides to trade her dignity for some cash by acting in a porn flick? thats her business.

well. porn reduces women to sex objects in the eyes of men. being reduced to a sex object is demeaning.

what would a feminist care if a particular woman decides to trade her dignity for some cash by acting in a porn flick? thats her business.
Porn doesn't reduce all women to sex objects, just the women in the video and the men in the video are as much sex objects as the women are.

I'm a feminist and I don't care if another woman wants to be in porn, it's quick and easy cash I suppose and it's up to her to decide what to do with her body.

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

So if you don't like it, but it's harmless and gives many people enjoyment, sit down and shut up. I'm not saying you should do this for things that actually matter. Don't sit down and don't shut up about the iraq war.

But do sit down and shut up about porn.

Sorry, I had to rant.


That's true. There are a lot of people who look for things to be offended by. I respect feminists, but the hyperfeminists who will hate any man just beacuase of his gender, they just piss me off.

That's true. There are a lot of people who look for things to be offended by. I respect feminists, but the hyperfeminists who will hate any man just beacuase of his gender, they just piss me off.
Those women aren't feminists.

Porn doesn't reduce all women to sex objects, just the women in the video and the men in the video are as much sex objects as the women are.

I'm a feminist and I don't care if another woman wants to be in porn, it's quick and easy cash I suppose and it's up to her to decide what to do with her body.

and i agree with you. i was just explaining what the notion was, not endorsing it.

im pretty sure that its the anti-porn stance of prominent feminists that causes some men to freak out and call them feminazis.

Porn isn't demeaning to women as a whole, just the women in them specifically.

Not all porn.
Just good porn.
*ducks*

and i agree with you. i was just explaining what the notion was, not endorsing it.

im pretty sure that its the anti-porn stance of prominent feminists that causes some men to freak out and call them feminazis.
Ah, I gotcha.

I don't think I've actually heard too many people argue against porn from a feminist standpoint, most of the arguments I've heard against porn come from a religious standpoint. Like last year at my school we had some "porn nation" campaign that the Campus Crusade for Christ did and it was total bullshit, they wrote "Porn nation" everywhere on campus in chalk so one of my friends and I went around writing "I <3 Porn!" and "Hooray for boobies!" and the like everywhere. It was good fun. :)

Ah, I gotcha.

I don't think I've actually heard too many people argue against porn from a feminist standpoint, most of the arguments I've heard against porn come from a religious standpoint. Like last year at my school we had some "porn nation" campaign that the Campus Crusade for Christ did and it was total bullshit, they wrote "Porn nation" everywhere on campus in chalk so one of my friends and I went around writing "I <3 Porn!" and "Hooray for boobies!" and the like everywhere. It was good fun. :)

it does sound like fun!

i dont think many young feminists are anti-porn.

anyway i pulled this off of wikipedia

Feminist positions on pornography are diverse. Some feminists, such as Diana Russell, Andrea Dworkin, Catharine MacKinnon, Susan Brownmiller, Dorchen Leidholdt, and Robin Morgan, argue that pornography is degrading to women, and complicit in violence against women both in its production (where, they charge, abuse and exploitation of women performing in pornography is rampant) and in its consumption (where, they charge, pornography eroticizes the domination, humiliation, and coercion of women, and reinforces sexual and cultural attitudes that are complicit in rape and sexual harassment). Many feminists differentiate between different sorts of porn and may see some as fairly harmless. Those that favour a complete ban on pornography are actually a small minority, but they tend to receive more attention in the media. The majority of feminists would consider porn to be a small issue.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pornography_movement#Feminist_objections

Those women aren't feminists.

Well, what are they? I could use bitches, but that's not official enough.

Have any of you actually worked in the pornography industry? My brother has, and though I rarely talk about it, I feel I should speak up now:

For the most part, in the industry, women are treated with an amazing amount of respect. Yes, the movies themselves can APPEAR to demean women, but they don't. Most of the women working in the porn industry enjoy their work and are given the respect they deserve. Men tend not to be so much, though, and with good reason, because it still can be hard to find a woman who wants to be in porn. Very few porn movies these days are made featuring actors and actresses who were forced into making it--and usually any movie like that is quickly destroyed and the perpetrators hunted down. It's only demeaning if you let it be.

Porn is a good thing. It's only bad if you say it's bad, if you make it out to be bad.

(Of course, child porn is another story entirely, but let's not go into that.)

Well, what are they? I could use bitches, but that's not official enough.
Stupid bitches would be good enough. It would be nice if people stopped applying the label "feminist" to people who aren't.

its true some porn does demean women such as forced but apart from that it's the womans choice and they are mostly payed for it. And yes its true that some sites are appealing because they demean women but the women are all there by choice. Whether you like it or not they wanna be there.

So if someone only was interested in screwing you because you were attractive.....

They'd be normal? No expert, but, IIRC, sexual attraction is based on... get this... sexual appeal. If I am not attracted to someone at all, I have absolutely no desire to screw them.

If one reciprocated the feeling, then joy for all?

You're a muslim, though. On Western matters, you don't have an opinion.

A) Porn is universal

B) How is his opinion any less valid? I thought he was from California?

Even if he wasn't how is his opinion on the west less valid then your and others opinion on the east?

B) How is his opinion any less valid?

Because he's a creepy radical religious guy.

i had a girlfriend a few years back who loved to play a submissive role (be tied up etc) who freaked when she found porn on my computer depicting exactly the same scenario and told me it was degrading!

never mind the fact she didn't have my permission to search through my hard-drive - though it did make it difficult for her to claim the moral high ground...

she consented to it, so did the women in the porn, so how the hell is anyone a victim here?

Because he's a creepy radical religious guy.

That I can see ... but just for being Muslim? which was the only reason the quoted poster gave...

i had a girlfriend a few years back who loved to play a submissive role (be tied up etc) who freaked when she found porn on my computer depicting exactly the same scenario and told me it was degrading!

never mind the fact she didn't have my permission to search through my hard-drive - though it did make it difficult for her to claim the moral high ground...


If no one objects, I have to laugh my ass off here.

Porn isn't demeaning to women. It (okay, most of it) doesn't try to deny that women are people, or equal to men, or anything like that. It simply shows the sexual side of women and men by showing the act or the nude body. To acknowledge that the female body is sexually appealling or to take pleasure in viewing does not mean women have become objects.

I view porn as analogous to other kinds of films. It no more turns women into sex objects than a war film turns men into violence objects. It just, like many forms of entertainment, focuses one element of what it means to be human.

I view porn as analogous to other kinds of films. It no more turns women into sex objects than a war film turns men into violence objects. It just, like many forms of entertainment, focuses one element of what it means to be human.

In fact, each kind of film shows a different third of what it means to be human. You have your porn showing sex, your war movies showing violence, and your kazakh journalists showing fleeing from jews.

If no one objects, I have to laugh my ass off here.

no objection - but curious as to what's so funny, specifically i mean

In fact, each kind of film shows a different third of what it means to be human. You have your porn showing sex, your war movies showing violence, and your kazakh journalists showing fleeing from jews.


http://ffmedia.ign.com/filmforce/image/article/711/711738/borat-20060607053153666-000.jpg

“Throw the Jew down the well, so my country can be free, you must grab him by the horns, then we have a big party”

no objection - but curious as to what's so funny, specifically i mean

I just find it funny that someone who enjoys being tied up claims being tied up is degrading. I mean, if you consent to it, it probably isn't degrading. Seriously.

Not all porn.
Just good porn.
*ducks*

Helmet?

I just find it funny that someone who enjoys being tied up claims being tied up is degrading. I mean, if you consent to it, it probably isn't degrading. Seriously.

curiously she really enjoyed playboy-style softcore porn - which is surely more "degrading" in that the women are airbrushed to perfection, thereby creating an unrealistic "ideal" to compare "real" women to

I find porn a bit boring if one of the persons involved isn't demeaning to one of to the others...

*sigh*

Being a woman myself, the most demeaning thing I've come across is people insistent upon telling me what is demeaning to me.

I like to watch porn. Porn is funny -especially when they try to add plot or 70s music. Who cares if women are depicted having intercourse? Oh no. So are the men, as has already been pointed out. As long as consenting adults are involved, what the fuck does it matter?

I'm going back to eating my office party quiche. I might even lick it a little bit.

People in pornos choose to degrade themselves (if that's what you want to call it, in my opinion, it's not degrading). It's their choice to do what they want with their bodies and whom they show it to, no one else's.

I find porn a bit boring if one of the persons involved isn't demeaning to one of to the others...

you only enjoy watching someone be degraded?

you only enjoy watching someone be degraded?
No, but it turns me on most. Nothing too rough. I like watching one guy degrade another. :)

its kind of odd that feminists would pick the porn market to focus on. I mean, dont get me wrong, i understand the agruements, but women get paid more in porn than men do. alot more. besides, when i think of the names in porn that ive heard just in passin, just because they are so famous, i can think of 2 women...and no men. you want to talk about obejctification? In porn, i dont care what the story is(which harly anyone pays attention to anyway), the man is just there to give the woman something to ride. its dirty, but seriously, women are by far more important in the porn industry than men are, precisely because men are the primary audience.
also, if you want to talk about how women are portrayed in the sotryline of the movie, we might as well target horror movies too, because the girls in horror movies are portrayed as much more stupid and needy than the girls in porn are.

There are porn films that women are objectified in. Like lesbian medusa films.


I'll leave now.

Sure, its demeaning. It reduces a person who supposively has a brain and a personality to simply a sex object. How can this be anything but negative? This applies to both men and women.It does not "reduce" people in any way. Being seen as a "sex object" is not mutually exclusive with being seen and respected as a person.

Porn does not inherently have to be demeaning to anybody. There is porn out there which is not demeaning to women or to men. I submit my own harddrive as evidence of this. ;)

However, a whole lot of the porn that is made today is demeaning to women. In a huge proportion of hetero porn, the humiliation and submission of women is pretty much the entire point. In a lot of gay male porn, the theme revolves around "feminizing" one of the men involved, which is just an extension of the idea that women are objects to be used by men for pleasure.

It is, frankly, stupid to insist that porn as we know it doesn't demean women. Yes, it does, more often than not. It doesn't have to be that way, of course, but it is that way.

That doesn't mean you're a bad person for liking porn. It doesn't mean that you hate women (or, if you're a woman, that you hate yourself). It doesn't even necessarily mean that you would like to act out the things you see in porn. It's like how a person can be into BDSM in the bedroom, but still very much believe in egalitarian and respectful relationships on the whole.

But really, knock off the silly denial.

Porn does not inherently have to be demeaning to anybody. There is porn out there which is not demeaning to women or to men. I submit my own harddrive as evidence of this. ;)

i'll take first look of that :)

It does not "reduce" people in any way. Being seen as a "sex object" is not mutually exclusive with being seen and respected as a person.

Stop stealing my thoughts before I post them. :(

Sure, its demeaning. It reduces a person who supposively has a brain and a personality to simply a sex object. How can this be anything but negative? This applies to both men and women.

They're having sex for money not giving a speech on how to combat world poverty at the U.N. You get what you expect and you are portrayed in the way you would think when you sign a contract that says "Will you let 10 different guys nut all over you for $10,000?" Consenting adults making decisions for thmselves is no one's business but the people who are involved. Don't like porn? Don't watch any.

They're having sex for money not giving a speech on how to combat world poverty at the U.N. You get what you expect and you are portrayed in the way you would think when you sign a contract that says "Will you let 10 different guys nut all over you for $10,000?" Consenting adults making decisions for thmselves is no one's business but the people who are involved.

And absolutely none of this means that porn isn't ever demeaning.

It is quite possible for somebody to consent to being demeaned. It is quite common for somebody to consent to being demeaned if you're willing to pay them enough.


Don't like porn? Don't watch any.
The topic, as I understand it, isn't "Do you like porn?" It is a debate over whether or not porn is demeaning.

A lot of porn is demeaning. A lot of people like the porn that is demeaning, and like to watch it. Other people prefer porn that is not demeaning. Some people don't like any porn, and other people like whatever porn they can get a hold of.

Let's not forget that those who appear in porn choose to do so.

Let's not forget that those who appear in porn choose to do so.
Most of them, yes. So? The topic is whether or not porn is demeaning to women. Lots of people consent to being demeaned. Is this really a shock to anybody?

Porn does not inherently have to be demeaning to anybody. There is porn out there which is not demeaning to women or to men. I submit my own harddrive as evidence of this. ;)

However, a whole lot of the porn that is made today is demeaning to women. In a huge proportion of hetero porn, the humiliation and submission of women is pretty much the entire point. In a lot of gay male porn, the theme revolves around "feminizing" one of the men involved, which is just an extension of the idea that women are objects to be used by men for pleasure.

It is, frankly, stupid to insist that porn as we know it doesn't demean women. Yes, it does, more often than not. It doesn't have to be that way, of course, but it is that way.

That doesn't mean you're a bad person for liking porn. It doesn't mean that you hate women (or, if you're a woman, that you hate yourself). It doesn't even necessarily mean that you would like to act out the things you see in porn. It's like how a person can be into BDSM in the bedroom, but still very much believe in egalitarian and respectful relationships on the whole.

But really, knock off the silly denial.
I agree with Bottle.

I also agree with Ashmoria that porn often demeans sex.

and to the OP, I don't like porn and I don't watch it. so there.

Most of them, yes. So? The topic is whether or not porn is demeaning to women. Lots of people consent to being demeaned. Is this really a shock to anybody?

Not a shock at all. But to say that what one person does demeans an entire gender? Quite a stretch that.

And "most of them"? If they appear in a porn film but did not choose to do so, then they're not consenting. That's called rape, and it's a criminal offense.

I view porn as analogous to other kinds of films. It no more turns women into sex objects than a war film turns men into violence objects. It just, like many forms of entertainment, focuses one element of what it means to be human.

Uhm, it's not a valid analogy. People who make war films don't actually send anyone to war, they just pretend they're in a war.

Not a shock at all. But to say that what one person does demeans an entire gender? Quite a stretch that.

Not remotely. A great deal of porn revolves specifically around humiliating or subjugating women. Do you really think that most porn showcases the individuality of the women involved? Do you think they are made into distinct and individual characters? Puh-leeze. They are boobies and cunts and asses and legs and all the pieces that make up A Woman. Hetero male actors are usually pretty much The Cock that is going to fuck The Pussy.

Honestly, it amazes me that so many people seem so determined to maintain that porn doesn't demean women. Sure it does, more often than not. Why is that hard to accept? Why is that even remotely surprising? Western culture has so many fucked up attitudes about sex, and particularly in regards to female sexuality, so why should it be surprising that our pornography is colored by these issues?

I guess it's encouraging that guys (and girls?) aren't comfortable admitting that porn is demeaning, because it implies that they believe it's wrong to demean others or that they believe that it is socially unaccepted. People know that you aren't supposed to go around bragging about how much you enjoy seeing other people demeaned, because that's not nice.

At the same time, though, I think it's creating a counterproductive state of affairs. It is a waste of time for people to try to convince themselves that porno doesn't demean anybody as long as the participants are consenting. That's just pure bull. Lots of people consent to being demeaned. Lots of people make piles of money off of being demeaned or demeaning others who have consented to play that role. Really, this is nothing new at all.


And "most of them"? If they appear in a porn film but did not choose to do so, then they're not consenting. That's called rape, and it's a criminal offense.You said, "Let's not forget that those who appear in porn choose to do so."

Not all people who appear in porn choose to be in porn. I agree that using a non-consenting person in a porno constitutes rape.

I agree with Bottle.

I also agree with Ashmoria that porn often demeans sex.

and to the OP, I don't like porn and I don't watch it. so there.
Here's the funny thing:

I think porn very often demeans women. I think porn often demeans men, though less often than it demeans women (probably due to the fact that porn is made BY men and FOR men more often than it is made BY women and FOR women). I think porn sometimes demeans sex, though I couldn't honestly say how often this occurs because I'm still sorting out my thoughts on the subject.

And none of this stops me from watching porn.

I prefer porn that doesn't demean anybody. That's just my personal taste. But I've watched porn that demeans somebody (or everybody) in it. I've even enjoyed that kind of porn at times.

Getting off on seeing somebody being demeaned doesn't automatically make you a bad person. Hell, getting off on personally demeaning somebody doesn't automatically make you a bad person, either, provided that the person you are demeaning is consenting to it. But, in both cases, somebody is being demeaned. Don't get all worked up trying to pretend that there's no demeaning going on. Sure there is. And you are enjoying it. Don't worry, you're not going to Hell for it.

Here's the funny thing:

I think porn very often demeans women. I think porn often demeans men, though less often than it demeans women (probably due to the fact that porn is made BY men and FOR men more often than it is made BY women and FOR women). I think porn sometimes demeans sex, though I couldn't honestly say how often this occurs because I'm still sorting out my thoughts on the subject.

And none of this stops me from watching porn.

I prefer porn that doesn't demean anybody. That's just my personal taste. But I've watched porn that demeans somebody (or everybody) in it. I've even enjoyed that kind of porn at times.

Getting off on seeing somebody being demeaned doesn't automatically make you a bad person. Hell, getting off on personally demeaning somebody doesn't automatically make you a bad person, either, provided that the person you are demeaning is consenting to it. But, in both cases, somebody is being demeaned. Don't get all worked up trying to pretend that there's no demeaning going on. Sure there is. And you are enjoying it. Don't worry, you're not going to Hell for it.

it never really appealed to me, I found my parents stash when I was a teen, I thought it was funny cheesy, I dated a guy who watched it when I was a little older, I thought it was stupid, I have male friends who watch it, it doesn't bother me.

The thing is my own real life sex life is so much better than watching porn could be that I would just rather have sex.

The way I see it is;

Women and men are both paid very well for doing pron. Porn is acually one of the few industries where women actually get paid more than the men (quite alot more). Both women and men, are seen having sex/naked. Both are consenting adults that know full what they are doing (not like they are being forced), and the majority of male/female porn stars say that they love there work. When people say 'porn is offencive to women', what they actually mean is 'they are offended by the fact that some women will happly drop their pants on camera if the price is right.

So lets sum this all up. The women are;
-happy
-well paid
-in full knowledge of what they are doing
-and, are objectified no more than the men

How is that demeaning to women??

it never really appealed to me, I found my parents stash when I was a teen, I thought it was funny cheesy, I dated a guy who watched it when I was a little older, I thought it was stupid, I have male friends who watch it, it doesn't bother me.

The thing is my own real life sex life is so much better than watching porn could be that I would just rather have sex.
Hey, more power to you. Some people just don't go for porno, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I think a lot of people are tense about this subject because they think that if they admit porn is demeaning then somebody will try to take it away from them. And there are people who want to take away your porn, so that's not an irrational way to feel!

The thing is, I'm perfectly ok with people making porn that is demeaning to women as long as everybody who is participating in the porn is a consenting adult. What I'm not okay with is people making or viewing porn that demeans women and then turning around and insisting that it doesn't. Seriously, just chill out and save that energy for a good wank.

No man will fuck a feminist. The feminists start crying sour grapes and say they do not want sex or that sex is evil or something just because nobody will lay them. We should take all the feminists and start a colony with them or something. Just for giggles and grins we could put the colony along the Amazon. Gosh darn feminists!

No man will fuck a feminist. The feminists start crying sour grapes and say they do not want sex or that sex is evil or something just because nobody will lay them. We should take all the feminists and start a colony with them or something. Just for giggles and grins we could put the colony along the Amazon. Gosh darn feminists!
I say we send them all to a forced labor camp where they will have to make sammiches and clean bathrooms all day long! That'll larn 'em!

This really begs the question about how porn or any sex could be demeaning to anybody? If people like sex even really extreme sex that is fine. There are lots of chicks that do some pretty freaky things and they love it. It does not demean them. Now if a woman is bad at sex I guess that is demeaning to them for people to make fun of them for it but porn stars earn the big bucks because they are good at sex. I just do not get it.

I say we send them all to a forced labor camp where they will have to make sammiches and clean bathrooms all day long! That'll larn 'em!

Nice! Although, I must say there is something nice about a woman that bakes bread. I think sandwich making is more of a man's job. Unless it is PB&J for the kids. I mean making really awesome sandwiches is pretty much a man thing. But I agree on the bathroom cleaning thing. The only men that should clean bathrooms are janitors. It is cool if you are a janitor. If you arent a janitor you are a democrat or a gay or both.

I say we send them all to a forced labor camp where they will have to make sammiches and clean bathrooms all day long! That'll larn 'em!

good idea but i will not eat one of those sandwich's

good idea but i will not eat one of those sandwich's

Yeah! I'd be afraid of where the yeast came from!:eek:

I say we send them all to a forced labor camp where they will have to make sammiches and clean bathrooms all day long! That'll larn 'em!

This my friends, is an example of appropriate and well-thought out use of satirical humor.


I hope.

Porn isn't demeaning to women, it's demeaning to the entire human race. You look at that which is of another couple, their relationship is being demised by you. How could you think that looking at porn was ok to do? It's immoral, it should be banned.

Helmet?

North of the River Fee...

Porn isn't demeaning to women, it's demeaning to the entire human race. You look at that which is of another couple, their relationship is being demised by you. How could you think that looking at porn was ok to do? It's immoral, it should be banned.

Hm. Wow, Ruffy, you never struck me as one of the Moral Majority.

Ban Ruffy!

:p

Hm. Wow, Ruffy, you never struck me as one of the Moral Majority.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.
But every hero in the movie was Jewish.

But every hero in the movie was Jewish.

You win the internet.

This is what I think, not saying you should think this, unless you happen to agree to what I'm saying.

I'm not directing this at any one person so please don't think I am. I'm just stating why I disagree with those that consider it demeaning.

Arguing about this is ultimately relatively pointless.

Whether something is demeaning or not is entirely subjective.

People argue that porn is demeaning. I belive that this is because largely people still believe that sex is somehow "dirty" or "wrong" (even if the feeling is mild). The reason that they believe this is because for a long long time people have been taught it was so by community religious leaders, largely from standards set out in the Old Testamen. The Old Testament teaches that sex between 2 men is wrong, it teaches that sex should be only for procreation and by implication that sex for pleasure is wrong.

Personally I dont believe any of that. So I don't find porn demeaning to anyone in the slightest. As such I do not objectify the women in it at all and for someone else to tell ME that I do I consider an insult to my intelligence. You don't know me at all, especially as a lover.

A Woman when she gets pregnant knows for certain that her genes have been passed on.

A man does not, he has no guarantee that it was him that impregnated the woman. So by teaching that sex is for procreation, that adultery is totally and utterly wrong, that it should be one man one woman and that such a bond should be a lifetime commitment and imposing heavy penalties or at least a fear of a heavy penalty this pretty much secures the Man's position as impregnator of the woman.

This makes the woman a posession, and indeed until fairly recently a wife was considered the property of her husband. Remember the "Rule of thumb" any one?

So personally, I would think that sticking to the outmoded moral values set out in the old testament Objectifies women far more than a silly porn flick which for the most part shows two people having fun. (and some of them ARE damn silly).

Porn is only as demeaning as you think it is.

This is what I think. I respect your right to your own opinion because as I said it's subjective.

If no one objects, I have to laugh my ass off here.

seconded. sounds like your gf was a little unstable in the head.

The Old Testament teaches that sex between 2 men is wrong, it teaches that sex should be only for procreation and by implication that sex for pleasure is wrong.
where?



This makes the woman a posession, and indeed until fairly recently a wife was considered the property of her husband. Remember the "Rule of thumb" any one?
uh no:confused:

no objection - but curious as to what's so funny, specifically i mean

the obvious. she liked to be demeaned and tied up and got mad because you were turned on by pron that depicted the same thing. Well duh, it turns you on and she does it. I'm assuming she liked to be told she was a "dirty girl" and found it "mean" when the guy said it in the film. That's what's funny IMHO.

where?
Well, it sure isn't in the Song of Solomon.




uh no:confused:
Urban Legend. Supposedly the phrase "rule of thumb" came from a law that stated that a man couldn't beat his wife with a stick any thicker than his thumb. It's completely false.

Well, it sure isn't in the Song of Solomon.
that's what I was thinking........I mean the book is basically soft porn.





Urban Legend. Supposedly the phrase "rule of thumb" came from a law that stated that a man couldn't beat his wife with a stick any thicker than his thumb. It's completely false.

oh, I remember that now, some idiot told me that in high school, he believed it was the law in our state, I told him he was probably right since it was also legal for me to kick the crap out of him during my "woman time" which is what he thought it was whenever a girl said anything "bitchy" (meaning thinking for herself)

And absolutely none of this means that porn isn't ever demeaning.

It is quite possible for somebody to consent to being demeaned. It is quite common for somebody to consent to being demeaned if you're willing to pay them enough.


The topic, as I understand it, isn't "Do you like porn?" It is a debate over whether or not porn is demeaning.

A lot of porn is demeaning. A lot of people like the porn that is demeaning, and like to watch it. Other people prefer porn that is not demeaning. Some people don't like any porn, and other people like whatever porn they can get a hold of.


Some people like being demeaned. Hell, some people crap and piss all over each other in porn. Not my cup of tea, but if they are agreeing to do it and paid well for it, what's the problem? If you're a guy and you think, "I'll treat my wife the way Johhny Juicenuts does in his film" and start telling her what a "filfthy whore" she is (unless she likes that kind of thing) you're just a God damn moron. Expect her to turn around and twist your nuts off rather quickly. You think most men begin to treat women the way porno movies depict they should? My wife's a freakish little thing but at some point she'd perform the vesectomy herself is I treated her poorly. My point is, two conenting adults agree to portray themselves like trash while Fing then so be it.

Some people like being demeaned. Hell, some people crap and piss all over each other in porn. Not my cup of tea, but if they are agreeing to do it and paid well for it, what's the problem? If you're a guy and you think, "I'll treat my wife the way Johhny Juicenuts does in his film" and start telling her what a "filfthy whore" she is (unless she likes that kind of thing) you're just a God damn moron. Expect her to turn around and twist your nuts off rather quickly. You think most men begin to treat women the way porno movies depict they should? My wife's a freakish little thing but at some point she'd perform the vesectomy herself is I treated her poorly. My point is, two conenting adults agree to portray themselves like trash while Fing then so be it.
her point is that people accept money to be demeaned and saying that someone who is getting paid to be demeaned isn't "being demeaned" is idiotic.

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.
It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

So if you don't like it, but it's harmless and gives many people enjoyment, sit down and shut up. I'm not saying you should do this for things that actually matter. Don't sit down and don't shut up about the iraq war.

But do sit down and shut up about porn.

Sorry, I had to rant.

Lollercoaster.... thats all I have to say. I think your wrong, but your analogies.... just Lollercoaster.... and maybe I'll take a roflcopter...

where?

uh no:confused:

To your first one, Sodom and Gomorrah. Their sins were SODOMY (The eloping between two men.)GOD BLEW THEM AWAY WITH HIS MIGHTY COMETS!!!

To your first one, Sodom and Gomorrah. Their sins were SODOMY (The eloping between two men.)GOD BLEW THEM AWAY WITH HIS MIGHTY COMETS!!!

The Hebrew word translated as "know" in that story actually means "know". It isn't the euphemistic "know". The sin of Sodom was inhospitality.

To your first one, Sodom and Gomorrah. Their sins were SODOMY (The eloping between two men.)GOD BLEW THEM AWAY WITH HIS MIGHTY COMETS!!!

uh........no. They were doing a lot of stuff that was wrong, deprave stuff, I don't think it was about sex.......I think it was about people being jerks, I mean new visitors come to the city and men gather around to rape them? a father offers his daughters instead? all kinds of badness going on there.

If you look into "Biblical history" things have to be pretty bad before God comes in and wipes people out......I mean he didn't just send in an army of humans he rained down sulfur.

Well, it sure isn't in the Song of Solomon.

Off the top of my head, without looking it up to check - I think it is in Deuteronomy. If it aint there it is definitely somewhere in the Old Testament.

Whether porn is demeaning or not is subjective, as someone else has pointed out, but I think I can safely say child porn is a big no no.

The Hebrew word translated as "know" in that story actually means "know". It isn't the euphemistic "know". The sin of Sodom was inhospitality.

where do you get that? people always say that but when I question it they call me a homophobe.........

her point is that people accept money to be demeaned and saying that someone who is getting paid to be demeaned isn't "being demeaned" is idiotic.

Ok, but did you ever think that this is what gets some of them off? I knew a girl whom I dated (oh the memories) who wanted me to do things to her which to me seemed a little harsh. Down for whatever, with me alone, she wanted to roleplay the world. She would be Dom, she would be Sub, and all the while she fricken loved it. It turned her on and made her freakswitch go on overdrive. The reality of it was, when it was over neither one of us fealt demeaned. I could have abused every orifice she had while expousing some vile things and one we were done we were still there cuddling in each others arms so completely in love. As a previous poster pointed out, the topic is completely subjective. What offends you will not offend me and vice versa. So is it demeaning if the other person enjoys it and wants it? Noting that the relationship is loving and the "demeaning" is temporary. Believe it or not there are some women and men who really like the dom sub roles and find it to be sintilating and not demeaning at all.

where do you get that? people always say that but when I question it they call me a homophobe.........

I can't remember. I'd try to find a source, but none of the search engines are working for me right now. I'm pretty sure it was some website run by a rabbi or something, or at least someone who was fluent in Hebrew.

Ok, but did you ever think that this is what gets some of them off? I knew a girl whom I dated (oh the memories) who wanted me to do things to her which to me seemed a little harsh. Down for whatever, with me alone, she wanted to roleplay the world. She would be Dom, she would be Sub, and all the while she fricken loved it. It turned her on and made her freakswitch go on overdrive. The reality of it was, when it was over neither one of us fealt demeaned. I could have abused every orifice she had while expousing some vile things and one we were done we were still there cuddling in each others arms so completely in love. As a previous poster pointed out, the topic is completely subjective. What offends you will not offend me and vice versa. So is it demeaning if the other person enjoys it and wants it? Noting that the relationship is loving and the "demeaning" is temporary. Believe it or not there are some women and men who really like the dom sub roles and find it to be sintilating and not demeaning at all.
I don't really care. I doubt that Bottle really cares either.

where?



Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

This is often cited as proof that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it)

Lev 20:10 If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

This is the one man one woman thing I was talking about.

1 Corinthians 7:1 KJV It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
(1 Corinthians 7:29 They that have wives be as though they had none;

These two strongly suggest that sex is only for procreation and I believe have been used as arguments thus.

uh no:confused:

Well the rule of thumb has dubious historical validity but the idea that it came from the maximum thickness of stick that a man could use to beat his wife remains. I just feel that this demostrates past attitudes to women as things to be owned regardless of its accuracy.

Sadly, porn depicts something that is very natural in a totally unnatural light. There is no way most of the crap they do is enjoyable, and it gives people (okay, men) the wrong idea about many aspects of sexuality. It's like watermelon-flavored candy...they took the basic flavor of watermelon, figured out exactly what part of the flavor triggers our "I love this" buttons, and put it all into a tiny sugar pill. Yeah, it still says watermelon, and it has some basic ties to watermelon (and hell, we love it), but that shit ain't watermelon.

We as a culture (okay, American media) tend to take real life and, for our viewing pleasure, distort it to its extremes. That's the way things are. I'm not happy about it, but I shape my world by deciding what to consume, by thinking about what I see and experience, and by choosing the people I associate with.

On a side note, I know a lot of guys, and I don't think there's a single one that doesn't watch random porn on a regular basis, maybe every day. I don't even want to know. Some of these guys are total jerks and degenerates, but most aren't.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

This is often cited as proof that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it)

Lev 20:10 If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

This is the one man one woman thing I was talking about.

1 Corinthians 7:1 KJV It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
(1 Corinthians 7:29 They that have wives be as though they had none;

These two strongly suggest that sex is only for procreation and I believe have been used as arguments thus.


1 Corinthians 7
1Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,"
2 but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.

in context that looks like it speaks about monogamy not about what "sex is for"


the second passage from 1 Corinthians 7 talks about the unmarried.

The Hebrew word translated as "know" in that story actually means "know". It isn't the euphemistic "know". The sin of Sodom was inhospitality.

That's wrong. I don't know who told you that, but they are wrong. Anyway, the story wouldn't make sense if that was the case. Why would the mob be inhospitable for surrounding Lot's house wanting to know the strangers? And why would lot offer his daughters so the mob could know them instead? (Apparently his daughters hadn't yet been known).

Sadly, porn depicts something that is very natural in a totally unnatural light. There is no way most of the crap they do is enjoyable, and it gives people (okay, men) the wrong idea about many aspects of sexuality. It's like watermelon-flavored candy...they took the basic flavor of watermelon, figured out exactly what part of the flavor triggers our "I love this" buttons, and put it all into a tiny sugar pill. Yeah, it still says watermelon, and it has some basic ties to watermelon (and hell, we love it), but that shit ain't watermelon.

We as a culture (okay, American media) tend to take real life and, for our viewing pleasure, distort it to its extremes. That's the way things are. I'm not happy about it, but I shape my world by deciding what to consume, by thinking about what I see and experience, and by choosing the people I associate with.

On a side note, I know a lot of guys, and I don't think there's a single one that doesn't watch random porn on a regular basis, maybe every day. I don't even want to know. Some of these guys are total jerks and degenerates, but most aren't.

I agree :) and I like the watermelon sweets analogy. Porn is often quite distorted, this is the stuff I was refering to as silly. As Smunkee says it is stupid. But there's also a fair ammount that's not like that. I for one don't like the ones that "play to the camera", I find two people enjoying each other far more pleasant to watch.

Dammit I forgot to finish my post.

I was going to say that many many people do like extremes as well. Extreme Sports, Extreme films, Extreme Science, even religious Extremes. As humans we enjoy pushing the limits of what we can experience, it's in our nature and it's what makes us so inquisitive and inventive.

Wow. The religious wackos who hijacked this thread need to get out and stop trying to fit every topic to a biblical tune.


Oh, and Divine Imaginary Fluff already posted my opinion:
It does not "reduce" people in any way. Being seen as a "sex object" is not mutually exclusive with being seen and respected as a person.

Okay, I can sort of get what you're (OP) saying. Men are also often shown in porn. They can be demeaned, too. But, it seems to me that the trend is slowly dying away. Porn showing 2+ women is becoming even more popular. I'm not saying that there isn't porn with 2+ men (although I'd say that it might be aimed more towards homosexual men, but there is a percentage of fairly pervy women, too), but the porn business is directed more towards men. The porn industry's portrayals of women does nothing to increase respect for women, but rather makes some men think that all women are 'hos' and that they should be used as sex objects, or if they're not attractive enough to be so, then they shouldn't exist.

From a religious sense I'm certain that satan sets out to demean women. I read in a book (yes, not the Bible so I can't say whether the writer was wholly right) that Lucifer has been jealous of Eve's (i.e. woman's) beauty ever since her creation and has been trying to downgrade her ever since her creation. Call me idiotic (I put myself out there with practically every response I give), but I'm not surprised by porn's stance on women and how many men get lured by it.

Wow. The religious wackos who hijacked this thread need to get out and stop trying to fit every topic to a biblical tune.

Porn is onlu demeaning if it's Italian.

That's wrong. I don't know who told you that, but they are wrong. Anyway, the story wouldn't make sense if that was the case. Why would the mob be inhospitable for surrounding Lot's house wanting to know the strangers? And why would lot offer his daughters so the mob could know them instead? (Apparently his daughters hadn't yet been known).

First of all, the word for know used in relation to the daughters was the word that meant sex. Second, it was an angry mob. They wanted to know if the people were strangers. If they were, the mob would probably kill them.

Porn is often quite distorted, this is the stuff I was refering to as silly. As Smunkee says it is stupid. But there's also a fair ammount that's not like that. I for one don't like the ones that "play to the camera", I find two people enjoying each other far more pleasant to watch.

Dammit I forgot to finish my post.

I was going to say that many many people do like extremes as well. Extreme Sports, Extreme films, Extreme Science, even religious Extremes. As humans we enjoy pushing the limits of what we can experience, it's in our nature and it's what makes us so inquisitive and inventive.

Indeed!

Wow. The religious wackos who hijacked this thread need to get out and stop trying to fit every topic to a biblical tune.

I hear that. :p

Wow. The religious wackos who hijacked this thread need to get out and stop trying to fit every topic to a biblical tune.

:rolleyes:

Wow. The religious wackos who hijacked this thread need to get out and stop trying to fit every topic to a biblical tune.



I hear that. :p

I kind of disagree, because they are as entitled to their opinion as we are and as I stated I believe that sex in general and subsequently porn are the "hot topic" that they are because of the influences of the old testament in general. (and possibly several other doctrines but I can't comment on them because I don't know anything about them) I think that the influences are deeply ingrained in todays society and affect even many non christians to a greater or lesser degree simply because they have been there so long.

And I don't regard Smunkee as a religious wacko at all.

Bah, how do you nest a quote properly - sorry for the mess

I can see your point but as well, men are just as much sexual icons to theirselves as their are too women! I think that pornography is very wrong do to you can find it about anywhere and their are many childern in stake at this point! Don't you see that a child seeing this is just as bad as seeing there own mother and father the same way. Would you want your kid seeing that?
One day you will relize that pornography is wrong and if it is going to stay on this world it should be banned from the net as well as anywhere unwanted!

Thank You,

President of FreeBush

My use of the phrase "religious wacko" was pretty tongue-in-cheek. ;)

The very existence of gay porn kind of kills the argument that porn exists solely to demean women.

The very existence of gay porn kind of kills the argument that porn exists solely to demean women.

Don't you see? Women have been demeaned so much that they have been cut out of porn!

First of all, the word for know used in relation to the daughters was the word that meant sex. Second, it was an angry mob. They wanted to know if the people were strangers. If they were, the mob would probably kill them.

Read the judaica press version - and you figure, those guys know they are talikng about when it comes to genesis. You'll see that word used in relation to the mob and the strangers also meant sex.

Stop putting lipstick on the pig.

It can be demeaning to women, although I'm not saying that's a bad thing. However, there is some porn that is made for women or couples to watch. Maybe the government should subsidise this kind of porn for erm...equality reasons or something. :D

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.


Pornography is demeaning to everyone who is involved in it, from the 'actors', to the producers and distributors, all the way to the people that consume the product. It is demeaning and degrading to anyone who gets involved with it, and decent people every where ought to condemn it.

I believe the only people who will defend pornography are those whos minds are tainted by it. Who are wilfully blind to the corosive influence it has on individuals and society out of a desire to justify themselves. None are so blind as those that will not see. Not that I condemn those people, many of them, if not all, never would have let it into their minds in the first place if our society didn't teach them that it was a perfectly acceptable form of entertainment, which is a lie.

I would encourage those that have been ensnared by pornography to rid their lives of it, and seek help to do so, if they are unable to do so on their own. And those who are not involved with it, stay away from it. It is addictive, and it is destructive.

Pornography is demeaning to everyone who is involved in it, from the 'actors', to the producers and distributors, all the way to the people that consume the product. It is demeaning and degrading to anyone who gets involved with it, and decent people every where ought to condemn it.

I believe the only people who will defend pornography are those whos minds are tainted by it. Who are wilfully blind to the corosive influence it has on individuals and society out of a desire to justify themselves. None are so blind as those that will not see. Not that I condemn those people, many of them, if not all, never would have let it into their minds in the first place if our society didn't teach them that it was a perfectly acceptable form of entertainment, which is a lie.

I would encourage those that have been ensnared by pornography to rid their lives of it, and seek help to do so, if they are unable to do so on their own. And those who are not involved with it, stay away from it. It is addictive, and it is destructive.

Whereas on the opposite spectrum, sexual repression without a healthy outlet will only result in something a lot more horrific. Take the Catholic Church as the biggest example.

The very existence of gay porn kind of kills the argument that porn exists solely to demean women.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that.

Whereas on the opposite spectrum, sexual repression without a healthy outlet will only result in something a lot more horrific. Take the Catholic Church as the biggest example.

Pornography is not a healthy outlet.

Pornography is not a healthy outlet.

So what is?

So what is?

Reading the Bible and self-flagellation for our evil sins:D

Reading the Bible and self-flagellation for our evil sins:D

And then before you know it, the Boys' Choir starts looking mighty tasty.

:D

So what is?

Marriage. Normal relations between a man and his wife, plain and simple. People may search for another answer, but this is the only one that is ever going to bring lasting peace and happiness.

Marriage. Normal relations between a man and his wife, plain and simple. People may search for another answer, but this is the only one that is ever going to bring lasting peace and happiness.

Normal relations? Bud, there wasn't marriage 10,000 years ago and I'm pretty sure humans bred back then.

Marriage. Normal relations between a man and his wife, plain and simple. People may search for another answer, but this is the only one that is ever going to bring lasting peace and happiness.

And those of us who can't marry?

Normal relations? Bud, there wasn't marriage 10,000 years ago and I'm pretty sure humans bred back then.

I believe in God, and that He placed our first parents here on this earth. I believe that Adam and Eve where married by the hand of the Lord, and that they were commanded to multiply.

Marriage has existed from the beginning, it is a natural state, and one we all desire after, wether we realise it or not. We all long for the undying affection and security of knowing there is someone that will always be there for us, rain or shine, sick or well, come hell or high water.

Many of us get discouraged and tell ourselves that we can never find such a relationship, or that we don't deserve such a relationship, or we tell ourselves that we are some how different from every one else and cannot be happy in such a relationship. So we settle for something less. But we are decived if we think that. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God for the happiness of his children, and it's something we can all have.

This is what I believe. Why shouldn't we believe it? It is a message of hope and joy. Why will we instead choose to believe a lie that brings us pain and sorrow; Because it's easier? It may seem easier going in to hold ourselves to a lower standard than that which God has set for us, but a few miles down the road, weighed down with trouble and pain, we would gladly exchange our current burden for the burden of keeping God's commandments.

This is what my life experiance has taught me. And I tell you these things not because I wish to condemn you, or because I wish to mar your happiness, but because I have discovered happiness, and I want to help others to find the peace and the joy I have found.

You're a muslim, though. On Western matters, you don't have an opinion.

You're stupid, though. On sentient matters, you don't have an opinion. LOL SCORE!

-snip-

Of course, for those of us who don't share your religious belief, it doesn't necessarily bring happiness (nor does your belief make the real history of marriage any different from what it actually is).

What about anime porn, it is drawn.

Having read through most of the thread (skipping some of the repeditive bits), I began wondering if this were true...
People feel porn to be a degredation of women on the assumption that the actions portrayed in the film are going to affect the actions of those people watching the film. Thus, one is degraded by the introduction of new and otherwise unconsidered ideas of a woman into the mind of a man. Were it any other way, the attack would (or should) be better served focusing on the cause of the problem; as is, porn is the apparent cause, meaning the degrading ideas must originate with porn.
Given this, I would be willing to say that very few people honestly discover "new" ideas from porn. Some of the kinkier things, perhaps, but people seek out porn that visualizes already-existing fantasies. Consiquently, porn is nothing more than an indicator of an individual's tastes, reflecting only pre-existing sexual ideas. Any degredation of women (if there is any) is not the fault of porn, but previous and already-ingrained behaviors.
Basically, don't blame the porn; it never did anything wrong.

What about anime porn, it is drawn.

It's drawn...but it still has the whole degrading to women, but they're not real women...It's a toss up

I believe God... placed our first parents here on this earth. I believe that Adam and Eve where married by the hand of the Lord, and that they were commanded to multiply.

Marriage... is a natural state


I automatically read these as contradicting each other. First you go on about some reality denying life-hating nonsense that detaches humanity from it's true past... then you talk about what's "natural" :confused: very confusing.

Porn does not inherently have to be demeaning to anybody. There is porn out there which is not demeaning to women or to men. I submit my own harddrive as evidence of this. ;)

However, a whole lot of the porn that is made today is demeaning to women. In a huge proportion of hetero porn, the humiliation and submission of women is pretty much the entire point. In a lot of gay male porn, the theme revolves around "feminizing" one of the men involved, which is just an extension of the idea that women are objects to be used by men for pleasure.

It is, frankly, stupid to insist that porn as we know it doesn't demean women. Yes, it does, more often than not. It doesn't have to be that way, of course, but it is that way.

That doesn't mean you're a bad person for liking porn. It doesn't mean that you hate women (or, if you're a woman, that you hate yourself). It doesn't even necessarily mean that you would like to act out the things you see in porn. It's like how a person can be into BDSM in the bedroom, but still very much believe in egalitarian and respectful relationships on the whole.

But really, knock off the silly denial.

Once again, Bottle says exactly what I would have said, only better. :)

OK I am coming in a little late here, but I have to comment on this by Bottle:

Not remotely. A great deal of porn revolves specifically around humiliating or subjugating women. Do you really think that most porn showcases the individuality of the women involved? Do you think they are made into distinct and individual characters? Puh-leeze. They are boobies and cunts and asses and legs and all the pieces that make up A Woman. Hetero male actors are usually pretty much The Cock that is going to fuck The Pussy.

And what form of entertainment showcases the individuality of the people involved? I can not think of one. Any film star is seen as the composite of their physical parts (clothed or otherwise). Is Angelina Jolie really represented as the individual she is in any film she has made, what about Brad Pitt - is he?

No. You are holding porn to a different standard to all other forms of entertainment. That is unless you are going to say that all forms of public spectacle - from Sports, through theatre, film, television, circuses, artistic happenings, photography, etc. are demeaning to the people in the public eye through these media.

The rest of your argument depends on Porn being, in some unexplained manner, different to non Porn. Please explain how it is different.

Humans are sexual creatures!
Get over it! :eek:

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.

You know, that would be a fairly reasonable expectation, considering Christ was Jewish and all.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

I haven't seen either of those movies, actually. Are they demaning to Muslims?


So if you don't like it, but it's harmless and gives many people enjoyment, sit down and shut up. I'm not saying you should do this for things that actually matter. Don't sit down and don't shut up about the iraq war.

But do sit down and shut up about porn.

Sorry, I had to rant.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.


being muslim doesnt mean ur a terrorist


-bhibbak ya lubnan-

It's like watermelon-flavored candy...they took the basic flavor of watermelon, figured out exactly what part of the flavor triggers our "I love this" buttons, and put it all into a tiny sugar pill. Yeah, it still says watermelon, and it has some basic ties to watermelon (and hell, we love it), but that shit ain't watermelon.

Superbly put. That shit, most certainly, ain't watermelon. As long as people can draw the line between the screen and reality, the stuff is not harmful. There are those that can't, and I'll agree that's a problem.

Still, why else DID we guys invent the internet, if not for HOT ASIAN TEENZ!!!! XXX SUPER HOT!!!!!! kinda shit? Sure, I admit that it's dumb, but it's not evil. As very intelligently put a page ago by Polite Individuals, porn only reflects pre-existing tendencies. If somebody doesn't start off liking a certain sexual fetish, watching images of it will not implant that a desire for it into them.

Marriage. Normal relations between a man and his wife, plain and simple. People may search for another answer, but this is the only one that is ever going to bring lasting peace and happiness.

Oh jeez, have some more Kool-Aid. Religious fanatics want to ban porn because sex is to be kept within an opposite sex, same-race marriage for the sole purpose of procreation and must not be discussed. Extreme feminists (the kind that people were saying don't count as feminists earlier in this thread) want to ban porn for various reasons, probably including the idea that they believe that men are evil and sex is rape, and that they want to further the idea that no woman really wants to have sex with a man. Angry parents want to ban porn because it warps their children's fragile little minds, never mind that they get their hands on things that are just as bad every day. All these forces can't stop the free market, apparently. I don't much care for the whole genre myself, but if people want to buy it, why the hell shouldn't they? There's no reason to ban it other than that it makes people feel icky, upset, or degraded.

Saying that porn degrades women is like saying gay marriage wrecks straight marriage - it's a complete logical fallacy. It's like saying the Yugo devalues all cars or mad keggers at some universities devalue all college degrees. It's outrageous.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing a porno blooper reel...that might be good for some laughs...

Still, why else DID we guys invent the internet, if not for HOT ASIAN TEENZ!!!! XXX SUPER HOT!!!!!! kinda shit?

Asians are hot, but i prefer tanned girls. *Drools*
P.S.: By tan, i mean real tan...Not that artificial shit you buy.

being muslim doesnt mean ur a terrorist


-bhibbak ya lubnan-

I was merely suggesting that you should not go to a movie about 9/11 expecting to see muslims portrayed in a favorable light.

Don't you see? Women have been demeaned so much that they have been cut out of porn!

Dude, gay porn's a helluva lot more demeaning then straight porn. I mean christ, some of that shit looks painful. REALLY painful.

Also I feel that most mentally healthy people (I say most. Some people just don't want to have sex, others can't get any for various reasons) will have premarital sex.

As for adultery, why the hell do you need a slip of paper telling you where you can stick it? The IRS gives us those enough.

In a lot of gay male porn, the theme revolves around "feminizing" one of the men involved, which is just an extension of the idea that women are objects to be used by men for pleasure.

How does that follow?

How does that follow?

I think he's implying that the femininized man is put in a submissive situation, which Bottle views as demeaning. Apparently Bottle has watched a lot of gay pr0n in his day.

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.


You are so full of shit that it's flowing out of your ears, nose, mouth and especially your fingers as you typed that.

Today's porn is demeaning to women in so many different ways:

The way that women in the business are commonly referred to by fans as bitches/slust/whores.

The now routine ass-to-mouth and increasingly routine dirty ass-to-mouth in porn vids.

The increasing appeal of spitting/slapping and choking vids in which the woman is repeatedly spit/slapped or choked.

The appearence of actual donkey punch porn vids.

And yes, the women do agree to all of the above before they do the vids. That doesn't mean it isn't demeaning.

You are so full of shit that it's flowing out of your ears, nose, mouth and especially your fingers as you typed that.



Thank you for being so reasonable.

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.




Harm this... :fluffle: :upyours:



Sorry, I couldn't help myself.:D I do agree with you however.:D

Harm this... :fluffle: :upyours:



Sorry, I couldn't help myself.:D I do agree with you however.:D

Wait...you agree with Soviestan?


When Soviestan means Woman should "Be humble" He means "Take it from any man, whenever, any way he wants" and then cook his dinner.


EDIT: Oh, you mean about the porn being harmful.

I think he's implying that the femininized man is put in a submissive situation, which Bottle views as demeaning. Apparently Bottle has watched a lot of gay pr0n in his day.

Her day.

Her day.

Either way.

Read the judaica press version - and you figure, those guys know they are talikng about when it comes to genesis. You'll see that word used in relation to the mob and the strangers also meant sex.

Stop putting lipstick on the pig.

The judaica press version only translates that way because various Jewish commentaries say it should by translated that way.
I know hebrew, I just read that line, the word there means know the same way "I know how to recite pi to 40,334 digits!" means know. (actually, not exactly, more like "I want to get to know him", due to the way Hebrew works. But it's still the word that would be used for know by, say, a scientist and not by some guy in a bar talking about what he did last night.)

Wait...you agree with Soviestan?


When Soviestan means Woman should "Be humble" He means "Take it from any man, whenever, any way he wants" and then cook his dinner.


EDIT: Oh, you mean about the porn being harmful.



I was talking about yes, but that humble part is just plain disgusting! Thats more harmful than any porn!

The way I see it is;

Women and men are both paid very well for doing pron. Porn is acually one of the few industries where women actually get paid more than the men (quite alot more). Both women and men, are seen having sex/naked. Both are consenting adults that know full what they are doing (not like they are being forced), and the majority of male/female porn stars say that they love there work. When people say 'porn is offencive to women', what they actually mean is 'they are offended by the fact that some women will happly drop their pants on camera if the price is right.

So lets sum this all up. The women are;
-happy
-well paid
-in full knowledge of what they are doing
-and, are objectified no more than the men

How is that demeaning to women??
I find it pretty sad that one of the few industries where women earn more than men is the sex industry...

That thought isn't related to whether it's demeaning, it's just kinda sad to me.

Porn is demeaning to every living thing that has graced the face of the Earth.

So there.

Porn is demeaning to every living thing that has graced the Planet Earth.

So there.



Nanny Nanny Boo Boo! :p :p :p



Stupidity :sniper:

I think he's implying that the femininized man is put in a submissive situation, which Bottle views as demeaning.

Clearly that is what she is implying. My question is how the connection is made between putting the male in a submissive position and believing that females are properly sex objects to be used for the pleasure of males.

It seems to merely be a manifestation of a preference for depictions of submission, regardless of gender. (In straight pornography, though, I will grant that the fact that the submissive partner is almost always female is indicative of a sexist and demeaning attitude towards women.)

I should add that depictions of submission are not necessarily demeaning.

Clearly that is what she is implying. My question is how the connection is made between putting the male in a submissive position and believing that females are properly sex objects to be used for the pleasure of males.

It seems to merely be a manifestation of a preference for depictions of submission, regardless of gender. (In straight pornography, though, I will grant that the fact that the submissive partner is almost always female is indicative of a sexist and demeaning attitude towards women.)

I should add that depictions of submission are not necessarily demeaning.

Basically, what Bottle is saying is that he doesn't like porn, and therefore you shouldn't either. I've never ran into any gay porn involving feminization, so I imagine Bottle is just hunting down reasons.

Basically, what Bottle is saying is that he doesn't like porn, and therefore you shouldn't either.

I don't think she is saying that at all.

I don't think she is saying that at all.

Although she does admit to having porn, she seems firmly against the good kind.

Porn does not inherently have to be demeaning to anybody. There is porn out there which is not demeaning to women or to men. I submit my own harddrive as evidence of this. ;)

However, a whole lot of the porn that is made today is demeaning to women. In a huge proportion of hetero porn, the humiliation and submission of women is pretty much the entire point. In a lot of gay male porn, the theme revolves around "feminizing" one of the men involved, which is just an extension of the idea that women are objects to be used by men for pleasure.

It is, frankly, stupid to insist that porn as we know it doesn't demean women. Yes, it does, more often than not. It doesn't have to be that way, of course, but it is that way.

That doesn't mean you're a bad person for liking porn. It doesn't mean that you hate women (or, if you're a woman, that you hate yourself). It doesn't even necessarily mean that you would like to act out the things you see in porn. It's like how a person can be into BDSM in the bedroom, but still very much believe in egalitarian and respectful relationships on the whole.
But really, knock off the silly denial.

Zarakon, your point is dead.

Zarakon, your point is dead.

I reread some of her arguments, and changed my position. Judging from you're resultant reaction, I assume you probably aren't even reading my posts anymore. Like I said, she's not against porn. Just the good kind.

I reread some of her arguments, and changed my position. Judging from you're resultant reaction, I assume you probably aren't even reading my posts anymore. Like I said, she's not against porn. Just the good kind.

I read your last post.
I just bolded that first line because I thought it was important, even though you conceded the point.

Hey, more power to you. Some people just don't go for porno, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I think a lot of people are tense about this subject because they think that if they admit porn is demeaning then somebody will try to take it away from them. And there are people who want to take away your porn, so that's not an irrational way to feel!

The thing is, I'm perfectly ok with people making porn that is demeaning to women as long as everybody who is participating in the porn is a consenting adult. What I'm not okay with is people making or viewing porn that demeans women and then turning around and insisting that it doesn't. Seriously, just chill out and save that energy for a good wank.

Ok, let's try that again.
Zarakon, your point is dead again.

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

So if you don't like it, but it's harmless and gives many people enjoyment, sit down and shut up. I'm not saying you should do this for things that actually matter. Don't sit down and don't shut up about the iraq war.

But do sit down and shut up about porn.

Sorry, I had to rant.

Porn IS demeaning to women, bastard. Oh, and i'm not a feminazi, but i still find it demeaning.

Porn IS demeaning to women, bastard. Oh, and i'm not a feminazi, but i still find it demeaning.

Way to defend your point, though. how is it demeaning to women if they consent to engage in sexual acts?

Precisely what do you mean by this?


women should know how to act in society and not dress and act like whores as I see everyday.

How?

because its wrong

because its wrong


Well now it's all clear....:rolleyes:

uh........no. They were doing a lot of stuff that was wrong, deprave stuff, I don't think it was about sex.......I think it was about people being jerks, I mean new visitors come to the city and men gather around to rape them? a father offers his daughters instead? all kinds of badness going on there.

If you look into "Biblical history" things have to be pretty bad before God comes in and wipes people out......I mean he didn't just send in an army of humans he rained down sulfur.


True but the visitors were men and the men gathered around to rape them (The Qu'ran holds the same thing, so I don't buy the supposed "Hebrew language says this") and the guy offers them his daughter to keep them from committing two sins, one of sodomy and the other of rape (He would be keeping them from sodomy.... I guess thats better than both.)

True but the visitors were men and the men gathered around to rape them (The Qu'ran holds the same thing, so I don't buy the supposed "Hebrew language says this") and the guy offers them his daughter to keep them from committing two sins, one of sodomy and the other of rape (He would be keeping them from sodomy.... I guess thats better than both.)

It wasn't just the men, it was the women and children too. Who the hell brings the wife and kids to a gang rape?
No, they wanted to interrogate them, probably unpleasantly, not rape them.

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

So if you don't like it, but it's harmless and gives many people enjoyment, sit down and shut up. I'm not saying you should do this for things that actually matter. Don't sit down and don't shut up about the iraq war.

But do sit down and shut up about porn.

Sorry, I had to rant.


I'm sorry you had to rant too, especially because you've drawn ridiculous parallels.

I find most porn a turn-off, because it's generally trashy and the women and men never look like real, beautiful, sexy people. I don't want to see Porn-Star-Barbie and Coke-Head-Ken get it on. However, I have been lucky to come across some photography and one movie (called 9 songs) that have really made me hot....
& I don't think the ones I like are demeaning, unless, of course, the man is taking control of the women; That's just sexy.

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.

Is sex harmful too?

i agree

those who feel that porn is demeaning to women seem to me to be coming from the idea that women are the victims of sex. that men take sex from women. even that the only time that women participate in sex is when they have to.

so to see a woman in a porn movie enjoying the kinky sex she is having is somehow showing her in a bad light. (not that they arent pretty unrealistic in their portrayal of sexual relationships but thats not the point, neither are romance novels) no woman would willingly do THAT and to suggest that a woman would is to degrade her.

it seems to me that its as bad a view of women as that of men who think that a woman's only value is in her sexual service to him.

now, porn can demean SEX (i suppose) by portraying is as a carnal act rather than a spirtual joining of 2 (married) lovers. by having it be a commodity to be bought and sold.

How is showing someone enjoying sex a bad thing?

Porn doesn't reduce all women to sex objects, just the women in the video and the men in the video are as much sex objects as the women are.

I'm a feminist and I don't care if another woman wants to be in porn, it's quick and easy cash I suppose and it's up to her to decide what to do with her body.

I'm not a feminist, but I agree.

Well, what are they? I could use bitches, but that's not official enough.

That's more suited though. Any extreme is bad. Being super-femminist to the point that you're sexist against men is just as bad as men who degrade & hate women. Being a "femminist" just means you actively choose to pursue gaining equal rights.

i had a girlfriend a few years back who loved to play a submissive role (be tied up etc) who freaked when she found porn on my computer depicting exactly the same scenario and told me it was degrading!

never mind the fact she didn't have my permission to search through my hard-drive - though it did make it difficult for her to claim the moral high ground...

she consented to it, so did the women in the porn, so how the hell is anyone a victim here?

I think she would've been more pissed off because she would've prefered to act out the scenario with you than have you watch porn. Your girlfriend probably just wanted to be the only woman you fantasized about/thought about/got off on/etc.

No, but it turns me on most. Nothing too rough. I like watching one guy degrade another. :)

I can sort of understand, but I think you're not using the right words. I like to watch dominant/submissive porn and I like to take part in scenarios where I'm the submissive participant.

Way to defend your point, though. how is it demeaning to women if they consent to engage in sexual acts?

SNAP!

women should know how to act in society and not dress and act like whores as I see everyday.


because its wrong

People can dress how they like. That is not the topic being discussed here.

women should know how to act in society and not dress and act like whores as I see everyday.
http://www.simplifiedsigns.org/fail.jpg

I think he's implying that the femininized man is put in a submissive situation, which Bottle views as demeaning. Apparently Bottle has watched a lot of gay pr0n in his day.
Yes, what I was getting at is the idea that one man is made into the "bitch," the submissive who is used for the sexual gratification of another man or other men. The "feminine" party is the passive object that is used (and very often demeaned).

And yes, I've watched a fair amount of gay porn in my time.

Basically, what Bottle is saying is that he doesn't like porn, and therefore you shouldn't either. I've never ran into any gay porn involving feminization, so I imagine Bottle is just hunting down reasons.
Hehehehehehehehehe.

Wow, you don't even bother to pretend that you've read my posts, do you?

My very first post on the thread specified that I have porn. I have repeated, through pretty much all my posts, that I don't think there's anything wrong with enjoying porn. I've said, multiple times, that I view and enjoy porn. I've said that I don't remotely want to see people banned from making porn, even that which demeans somebody.

Seriously, put at least a tiny little bit of effort into it, or you're just going to embarass yourself further.

I reread some of her arguments, and changed my position. Judging from you're resultant reaction, I assume you probably aren't even reading my posts anymore. Like I said, she's not against porn. Just the good kind.
The only kind of porn that I'm against is the kind where somebody was forced or coerced into participating. As long as all parties involved consented to be there, I don't oppose it.

However, as I've said several times before, PEOPLE CAN CONSENT TO BEING DEMEANED. The fact that a porn was made with 100% consenting parties does not mean that it is free of demeaning activities.

I'm not "against" demeaning porn, in the sense that I don't care if people make it or view it. I don't personally tend to enjoy it, but I also don't enjoy Westerns. That's just me.

I just find it adorable that so many people feel the need to pretend that porn doesn't ever demean women (or men). Seriously, get a grip.

And what form of entertainment showcases the individuality of the people involved? I can not think of one.

Then you're not thinking hard enough.

Any film star is seen as the composite of their physical parts (clothed or otherwise). Is Angelina Jolie really represented as the individual she is in any film she has made, what about Brad Pitt - is he?

In "mainstream" film, the idea is at least nominally to have distinct characters fulfilling particular roles. Now, granted, a lot of movies don't really do this, but the good ones are all about it.

Porn is...not so much like that.


No. You are holding porn to a different standard to all other forms of entertainment. That is unless you are going to say that all forms of public spectacle - from Sports, through theatre, film, television, circuses, artistic happenings, photography, etc. are demeaning to the people in the public eye through these media.

Hardly. I'm simply noticing that porn isn't about the individual characters or personalities involved. It is about showcasing sex, not characters or plotlines or anything else. That is so mind-numbingly obvious that I'm surprised I even have to make the point.


The rest of your argument depends on Porn being, in some unexplained manner, different to non Porn. Please explain how it is different.
If you need me to explain the difference between porn and not-porn, then maybe you should do a little "research" before participating in this thread. :D

Way to defend your point, though. how is it demeaning to women if they consent to engage in sexual acts?

I preferred not to say anymore because its a heated issue with me. I don't care if women want to participate in sexual activity. Hell I do, but to have videos up o the internet/sites/pictures of men controlling women, raping them, and using them as objects, yea that's wrong. its one thing to have artful nudity. That's okay to me, but when its used just to stir up the lions of various men and statistically 7% of women for their 'viewing pleasure' there is no honor in that. There is no respect in that. Porn objectifies women turning them into sex objects rather than actual people. It's up to people to make their own decisions, but sexually liberatted and being objectified are two different things.

and to this quote, by Soviestan "women should know how to act in society and not dress and act like whores as I see everyday" Man you hang out with the wrong women. The right women can make a sweater look sexy with out exposing any skin. I find it more sexy than those with no clothes on because there is mystery there. I find that refined women who dress appropriately can be more of a turn on than scantily clad women. Seriously. Just to avoid confusion, i am female, but i am bisexual.

"However, as I've said several times before, PEOPLE CAN CONSENT TO BEING DEMEANED. The fact that a porn was made with 100% consenting parties does not mean that it is free of demeaning activities. " I agree completely.

women should know how to act in society and not dress and act like whores as I see everyday.



By which you mean, you can tell they're woman. Christ, they just dress in a way to keep cool. Short skirts and whatnot are probably not just a fashion choice, they also keep you cool, I'd imagine.

Seriously Soviestan, why don't you just move to Saudi Arabia or some other barbaric country?

Still, why else DID we guys invent the internet, if not for HOT ASIAN TEENZ!!!! XXX SUPER HOT!!!!!! kinda shit? Sure, I admit that it's dumb, but it's not evil. As very intelligently put a page ago by Polite Individuals, porn only reflects pre-existing tendencies. If somebody doesn't start off liking a certain sexual fetish, watching images of it will not implant that a desire for it into them.

Yep! There wouldn't be a black market if people didn't want it, as illustrated so well in that episode of Battlestar Galactica. As long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.

uh...Bottle? The "Edit Post" button works quite well, for the future.

I think she would've been more pissed off because she would've prefered to act out the scenario with you than have you watch porn. Your girlfriend probably just wanted to be the only woman you fantasized about/thought about/got off on/etc.

Yeah, probably. Of course, that's not realistic...without major brainwashing and most likely the use of a male chastity device. That's a little too much work for me. :D

Is porn demeaning to women?

Well I wouldn't like to see my mom, sisters, wife etc in a porn film, yet I watch porn films containing someone else's mother etc. Also a lot of my early sex ed came from porn films.

So on one level I have to say yes, porn is demeaning to women, but on the other - no.

Slips off quietly into the back room.

Sadly, porn depicts something that is very natural in a totally unnatural light. There is no way most of the crap they do is enjoyable, and it gives people (okay, men) the wrong idea about many aspects of sexuality. It's like watermelon-flavored candy...they took the basic flavor of watermelon, figured out exactly what part of the flavor triggers our "I love this" buttons, and put it all into a tiny sugar pill. Yeah, it still says watermelon, and it has some basic ties to watermelon (and hell, we love it), but that shit ain't watermelon.

We as a culture (okay, American media) tend to take real life and, for our viewing pleasure, distort it to its extremes. That's the way things are. I'm not happy about it, but I shape my world by deciding what to consume, by thinking about what I see and experience, and by choosing the people I associate with.

On a side note, I know a lot of guys, and I don't think there's a single one that doesn't watch random porn on a regular basis, maybe every day. I don't even want to know. Some of these guys are total jerks and degenerates, but most aren't.

agreed

agreed

But most of the jerks and degenerates probably would've been jerks and degenerates anyway.

But most of the jerks and degenerates probably would've been jerks and degenerates anyway.

hmn?

But most of the jerks and degenerates probably would've been jerks and degenerates anyway.

Yeah, it's very chicken-or-the-eggish. Do they watch porn because they're jerks or degenerates, or did the porn turn them into jerks and degenerates? There's most likely a third factor (as we like to call it in Research and Eval class, "factor Z") that influences both factor X (porn) and factor Y(jerk/degenerate). That would make for an interesting, if complicated, research study. How can you operationally define being a jerk and a degenerate? For that matter, you'd have to operationally define porn, and there are different types and levels of porn...damn, forget it.

I have accidentally typed "pron" a million times. "Ponr" is a close second.

Yeah, it's very chicken-or-the-eggish. Do they watch porn because they're jerks or degenerates, or did the porn turn them into jerks and degenerates? There's most likely a third factor (as we like to call it in Research and Eval class, "factor Z") that influences both factor X (porn) and factor Y(jerk/degenerate). That would make for an interesting, if complicated, research study. How can you operationally define being a jerk and a degenerate? For that matter, you'd have to operationally define porn, and there are different types and levels of porn...damn, forget it.

I have accidentally typed "pron" a million times. "Ponr" is a close second.

I don't think they watch porn because they're jerks and degenerates. I think they're jerks and degenrates who happen to like porn. Which is good, because they're probably never going to get any except from extremely stupid and/or drunk people.

uh...Bottle? The "Edit Post" button works quite well, for the future.
I know it's embarassing when it turns out that you've made a mistake and said something foolish, but you don't have to feel defensive and try to lash out because of it. I'm not the sort of person who would grind your nose in it if you decided to apologize for your error.

By which you mean, you can tell they're woman. Christ, they just dress in a way to keep cool. Short skirts and whatnot are probably not just a fashion choice, they also keep you cool, I'd imagine.

It has nothing to do with keeping cool. There are pently of ways of keeping cooling other than wearing little clothing. They do it because society teaches them to be sex objects
Seriously Soviestan, why don't you just move to Saudi Arabia or some other barbaric country?

Saudi Arabia is not a barbaric country.

I know it's embarassing when it turns out that you've made a mistake and said something foolish, but you don't have to feel defensive and try to lash out because of it. I'm not the sort of person who would grind your nose in it if you decided to apologize for your error.

Not trying to lash out here. I'm just saying you you shouldn't make 5 posts in a row. I get it, you have pr0n.

Saudi Arabia is not a barbaric country.

Women cant vote and they have to cover up all parts of their body. Women also arent aloud to drive. They are severly discriminated against.

People also get their hands cut off for small crimes like robbery, and being gay. And could be whipped if they are publically drunk.

They also have public beheadings and other executions where large amounts of people can watch.

I wouldnt call Saudi Arabia a civilized place.

Women cant vote and they have to cover up all parts of their body. Women also arent aloud to drive. They are severly discriminated against.

People also get their hands cut off for small crimes like robbery, and being gay. And could be whipped if they are publically drunk.

They also have public beheadings and other executions where large amounts of people can watch.

I wouldnt call Saudi Arabia a civilized place.

It's like you read my mind. Thanks for sparing me some typing.

It wasn't just the men, it was the women and children too. Who the hell brings the wife and kids to a gang rape?


uh........bad people. that's the whole point of the smiting.

Ummmmmmmm..........

What is civilized? Why is demeaning women not part of a civilized country?

And does doing one thing that is "uncivilized" make the country as a whole full of barbarians?

I mean is civilized just whoever has more cities and technology? Is it about human rights? Equality? Or is it a human concept created to control people in order to make them be more like you?

Disclaimers: I am pro women's rights, I just hate when people arbitrarily divide lines of civilized and uncivilized because yeh it pretty much is a created human concept.

Yeah, probably. Of course, that's not realistic...without major brainwashing and most likely the use of a male chastity device. That's a little too much work for me. :D

I'm pretty sure my fiance thinks about me rather than other women.

W

[QUOTE=Milchama;12126559]Ummmmmmmm..........

What is civilized? Why is demeaning women not part of a civilized country?


Civilized means "Like us".

Seriously though. They aren't demeaning them. Demeaning just means (IMO) that it hurts people's view of them. Saudi Arabia OPRESSES woman, and that's an astronomically difference.

I'm pretty sure my fiance thinks about me rather than other women.
lol

I'm pretty sure my fiance thinks about me rather than other women.

This, my friends, is why there is so much tension between the genders. Ignorance of how the opposite sex thinks.

I'm pretty sure my fiance thinks about me rather than other women.

When he's getting off? You would be pretty surprised by the things that go on in a man's mind during that little event.

Anymore than it is to men. Men are treated like sex objects in porn as well, but you never here men complain. Not to be rude, but maybe feminists should stop LOOKING for things to be offended by.

It would be like a jew going to see the passion of the christ expecting jewish people to be portrayed as heroes.

It's like a muslim going to see a movie about 9/11.

So if you don't like it, but it's harmless and gives many people enjoyment, sit down and shut up. I'm not saying you should do this for things that actually matter. Don't sit down and don't shut up about the iraq war.

But do sit down and shut up about porn.

Sorry, I had to rant.

I haven't read the rest of this thread but knowing some women who have worked in porn, I don't think you know what really happens there.

It is true that most of the women enjoy this type of work. But some women get into not because they seek but because no one else will give them jobs. For women who need to pay bills and can't get another kind of job, the only option is pornography. It is highly immoral, therefore, to judge these women or the men who get into it for the same reasons.

The women have no rights to the control over the use of their image. Instead the photographer retains all the rights. He can take an innocent picture of you and convert it into a pornographic one using software and post it on the web and he can do this without your consent because in the porn industry, women have very little rights. You do have a right to walk off a set but if you do, you get blacklisted.

Some porn women are actually actresses who used to be in legitimate movies and TV shows. Remember the girl from the show Family Matters? The one that Erkel was always trying to hook up with? Guess what happened to her? Everyone refused to hire her so she got stuck becoming a porn star because she had no where to turn to.

Actually I don't think there is such a thing as a "legitimate occupation" when it comes to survival as all people have the right to use all means necessary to ensure their own survival.

But you do have a right to refuse work.
That's about the only right you have.

Some of the photographers you work with, tend to claim ownership over you after that point.

Some porn women are actually actresses who used to be in legitimate movies and TV shows. Remember the girl from the show Family Matters? The one that Erkel was always trying to hook up with? Guess what happened to her? Everyone refused to hire her so she got stuck becoming a porn star because she had no where to turn to.


What, she couldn't get work as, say, a waitress? A certified public accountant? A dog trainer? A camp counselor? Don't give me that "they had no other options" bull.

I haven't read the rest of this thread but knowing some women who have worked in porn, I don't think you know what really happens there.

It is true that most of the women enjoy this type of work. But some women get into not because they seek but because no one else will give them jobs. For women who need to pay bills and can't get another kind of job, the only option is pornography. It is highly immoral, therefore, to judge these women or the men who get into it for the same reasons.

The women have no rights to the control over the use of their image. Instead the photographer retains all the rights. He can take an innocent picture of you and convert it into a pornographic one using software and post it on the web and he can do this without your consent because in the porn industry, women have very little rights. You do have a right to walk off a set but if you do, you get blacklisted.

Some porn women are actually actresses who used to be in legitimate movies and TV shows. Remember the girl from the show Family Matters? The one that Erkel was always trying to hook up with? Guess what happened to her? Everyone refused to hire her so she got stuck becoming a porn star because she had no where to turn to.

Actually I don't think there is such a thing as a "legitimate occupation" when it comes to survival as all people have the right to use all means necessary to ensure their own survival.

But you do have a right to refuse work.
That's about the only right you have.

Some of the photographers you work with, tend to claim ownership over you after that point.

Do you have a source for any of this, other than you knowing some women who have worked in porn?

Porn is demeaning to women, they should be humble. Porn is hamrful whether people realise it or not.


Go spout your Islamic garbage somewhere else.

Anyways, porn isn't demeaning at all, because the actors who did it did it voluntarily. If they have that certain skill, they have every right to do it if they want to. It doesn't mean they don't have a brain.

Oh, by the way. I don't mind porn, and this is just a point.

When people in porn are called "whores" or similar things, that's technically true. They're having sex for money. They're whores.

Oh, by the way. I don't mind porn, and this is just a point.

When people in porn are called "whores" or similar things, that's technically true. They're having sex for money. They're whores.

Does it still count if they're not being paid by the person they're having sex with?

Does it still count if they're not being paid by the person they're having sex with?

No. They wouldn't be whores then. They'd just be having sex on camera.

No. They wouldn't be whores then. They'd just be having sex on camera.

So then women in porn in many cases are not whores.

They'd just be having sex on camera.
Thatsa mighty beeg camera for them to have sex onna it... :D

women should know how to act in society and not dress and act like whores as I see everyday.

How should they act? Like your servant? What's whorelike, too? Showing too much of their eyes through that burka? Damn, woman, put on some clothes!

Reading about porn and listening to Disney music...so wrong!

Reading about porn and listening to Disney music...so wrong!

Disney music being the more "Wrong" of the two :p

Reading about porn and listening to Disney music...so wrong!

Wow. That could totally warp one's mind.

The Disney music, that is. Why...?

Wow. That could totally warp one's mind.

The Disney music, that is. Why...?

Because it keeps me from feeling lonely.
I hate breaks.

Thatsa mighty beeg camera for them to have sex onna it... :D

Not, it's just dwarf midget porn. And that isn't reduntant. I'm referring to porn starring someone who looks like a dwarf to a midget.

Those would be some small...things.

Because it keeps me from feeling lonely.
I hate breaks.

Porn can do the same ... and its more healthy

Porn can do the same ... and its more healthy

It's not my computer.
My computer has not internet.
This is my mom's computer.
That would be more wrong than the Disney music.

Porn can do the same ... and its more healthy

And it involves nudity. Nudity > all

And it involves nudity. Nudity > all

Pi > all.

Those would be some small...things.

Well, I'm going to say a dwarf is about 1/3 the size of a tall adult (2 ft.) It's sorta a short dwarf, I suppose, So I'm going to say it's 2 1/2 feet instead.

Therefore, this dwarf midget would be 1/3 the size of a dwarf, so about 10 inches.

So yeah, pretty small.

Well, I'm going to say a dwarf is about 1/3 the size of a tall adult (2 ft.) It's sorta a short dwarf, I suppose, So I'm going to say it's 2 1/2 feet instead.

Therefore, this dwarf midget would be 1/3 the size of a dwarf, so about 10 inches.

So yeah, pretty small.

I wasn't talking about the dwarf midget. I was talking about their goods.

I wasn't talking about the dwarf midget. I was talking about their goods.

I think dwarves have normal sized goods. So this thing is gonna be 10 inches tall with a 5 inch...thing.

I think dwarves have normal sized goods. So this thing is gonna be 10 inches tall with a 5 inch...thing.

That is horny.

Women cant vote and they have to cover up all parts of their body. Women also arent aloud to drive. They are severly discriminated against.

People also get their hands cut off for small crimes like robbery, and being gay. And could be whipped if they are publically drunk.

They also have public beheadings and other executions where large amounts of people can watch.

I wouldnt call Saudi Arabia a civilized place.

If people stay on the right path, they don't have to worry about the things you mentioned. And for the record Saudi Arabia has far less robberys and alcohol problems than the US, hardly uncivilised.

How should they act? Like your servant? What's whorelike, too? Showing too much of their eyes through that burka? Damn, woman, put on some clothes!

I'm not sure if they should be my servant but they should cover up and know their place.

When he's getting off? You would be pretty surprised by the things that go on in a man's mind during that little event.

Are you implying that my fiance has better things to think about than the woman in front of him?