NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.worldpoliticswatch.com/article.aspx?id=395

Interview with the editor in chief of Al-Jazeera, Ahmed Sheikh.

Now, I find his conclusion inane that Arab nations have education, economic, social, and other problems SOLELY because Israel exists. In other words, it's the fault of the "3bil j00z".

How do you see the future of this region in which news of wars, dictators and poverty predominates?

The future here looks very bleak.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

By bleak I mean something like "dark." I've advised my thirty year old son, who lives in Jordan, that he should leave the region. Just this morning I spoke with him about it. He has a son and we spoke about his son's education. I'd like my grandson to go to a trilingual private school. The public schools are bad. He should learn English, German, and French -- Spanish would also be important. But the private schools are very expensive. That's why I told my son to emigrate to the West for the sake of my grandson.

You sound bitter.

Yes, I am.

At whom are you angry?

It's not only the lack of democracy in the region that makes me worried. I don't understand why we don't develop as quickly and dynamically as the rest of the world. We have to face the challenge and say: enough is enough! When a President can stay in power for 25 years, like in Egypt, and he is not in a position to implement reforms, we have a problem. Either the man has to change or he has to be replaced. But the society is not dynamic enough to bring about such a change in a peaceful and constructive fashion.

Why not?

In many Arab states, the middle class is disappearing. The rich get richer and the poor get still poorer. Look at the schools in Jordan, Egypt or Morocco: You have up to 70 youngsters crammed together in a single classroom. How can a teacher do his job in such circumstances? The public hospitals are also in a hopeless condition. These are just examples. They show how hopeless the situation is for us in the Middle East.

Who is responsible for the situation?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so.

Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Exactly. It's because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West's problem is that it does not understand this.


Wow. I didn't know that major economic, internal political, and social problems like unemployment and dictatorship were caused by a lack of self-esteem....

Now, I'll take about 30 minutes to stop laughing.

where does he mention jews? :rolleyes:

where does he mention jews? :rolleyes:

I guess you think that Israel was founded by Danes?

And with that attitude Arab nations will continue to degenerate socially, technologically and culturally. Imagine how fucked they'll be when their oil runs out?

I would say that is a load of bs but the arabs are weird like that. No offence to them but if you look at their history the weirdest events create change and events that cause revolutions in the rest of the world are no cause of change for the Middle East.

To say that the Israeli state does not contribute to some if not all of the issues in the middle east is foolish. Israel is a irritant on the whole of the Arab and Muslim world everyday.

And with that attitude Arab nations will continue to degenerate socially, technologically and culturally. Imagine how fucked they'll be when their oil runs out?

A quote from Sayriana should answer this...

"100 years ago, these men were living in tents and running around chopping each others' heads off and that's where they're gonna be in another hundred."

I may have paraphased the quote, but the point is made.

To say that the Israeli state does not contribute to some if not all of the issues in the middle east is foolish. Israel is a irritant on the whole of the Arab and Muslim world everyday.

you are just jealous that a country of 7 odd million sort-of-amputated penises bum-rapes your 350 million strong great arab nation every single time your egos blow over... israel rulz, you suck, and everyone else is better off then both... live with it:D

I would say that is a load of bs but the arabs are weird like that. No offence to them but if you look at their history the weirdest events create change and events that cause revolutions in the rest of the world are no cause of change for the Middle East.

Wait....revolutions?
Like the Palestinian uprising?
That caused a brutal civil war?
That's a big event.
Is it in the middle east?
Yes.

So would this be a good time to bring al-Jazeera English into this or would that just open up another can of worms?

My ex dumped me because of Israel.

Trilby63;12061745']My ex dumped me because of Israel.

care to elaborate?

I believe he said that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a problem for the Arabs, and you cannot deny that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict started when Israel was created.

I guess you think that Israel was founded by Danes?

From what I read it had nothing to do with religon/race but the country itself

But of course anyone that does not like the choices and or decision of a a country (isreal) is automatically anti semantic :rolleyes:

Trilby63;12061745']My ex dumped me because of Israel.

aaaawwww :p

the world started and will end because of israel... between the two i don't know which one is worse

No, the problem is the incredibly corrupt dictators and sheikhs who blow billions of dollars on palaces, cars, and sex slaves while their people live in poverty ruled by an iron-fisted government that treats them like human garbage.

Their self-esteems is low because of the crippling poverty, unemployment, repression, and corruption inflicted on them by their leaders.

From what I read it had nothing to do with religon/race but the country itself

But of course anyone that does not like the choices and or decision of a a country (isreal) is automatically anti semantic :rolleyes:

correct. this man is attempting to articulate one of the reasons for lack of modernity in the arab world. his point deserves a little bit more than a lame attempt to put anti-semetic words in his mouth.

try harder.

care to elaborate?

I don't want to go into it but it's fair to say that the very existance of Israel causes me to be less endowed in comparison to other men.

well, the israeli army did kill civilians in lebanon this summer...

No, the problem is the incredibly corrupt dictators and sheikhs who blow billions of dollars on palaces, cars, and sex slaves while their people live in poverty ruled by an iron-fisted government that treats them like human garbage.

Their self-esteems is low because of the crippling poverty, unemployment, repression, and corruption inflicted on them by their leaders.

you got it all wrong... all those are the will of allah and are perfectly acceptable... israel is not... ergo israel is the source of all evils in the world :rolleyes:

To say that the Israeli state does not contribute to some if not all of the issues in the middle east is foolish. Israel is a irritant on the whole of the Arab and Muslim world everyday.

You mean that every single problem the Muslim world faces is because of the Jews?Little bit bigoted,eh?

you are just jealous that a country of 7 odd million sort-of-amputated penises bum-rapes your 350 million strong great arab nation every single time your egos blow over... israel rulz, you suck, and everyone else is better off then both... live with it:D

You're as bad as Soviestan.It's just a stupid thing to say; "Y'all suck!" Grow up.

Wait....revolutions?
Like the Palestinian uprising?
That caused a brutal civil war?
That's a big event.
Is it in the middle east?
Yes.

You took the word revolution out of context of what I was saying. I was saying events that cause revolution in the rest of the world, such as repressive dictatorships cause revolutions, seem to have little to no effect on the Arab world.

you are just jealous that a country of 7 odd million sort-of-amputated penises bum-rapes your 350 million strong great arab nation every single time your egos blow over... israel rulz, you suck, and everyone else is better off then both... live with it:D

I'm not jealous of Israel. I would never want to be like them. And the only reason they have a strong military is because of the Americans. Israel most certainly does not rule, It fails

well, the israeli army did kill civilians in lebanon this summer...

The American army killed civilians in Iraq this spring,summer,autumn and winter.Happens a lot,unfortunately,it isn't just Israel.

Well... the notion of Israel = angry Middle East, is not surprising.
I mean, I'm sure it would be the same if say, I dunno... Bulgaria decides to invade some land in California and claim it as their own, and they have global support and whatever. The Americans would be pretty pisseded.

you got it all wrong... all those are the will of allah and are perfectly acceptable... israel is not... ergo israel is the source of all evils in the world :rolleyes:

Strawmantastic.

You mean that every single problem the Muslim world faces is because of the Jews?Little bit bigoted,eh?


he never once mentioned jews.

feel free to discuss the substantive point the journo was making rather than trying to falsely label people anti-semetic

correct. this man is attempting to articulate one of the reasons for lack of modernity in the arab world. his point deserves a little bit more than a lame attempt to put anti-semetic words in his mouth.

try harder.

Dont get me wrong I am not convinced he has the right cause, Like many things there are probably a whole host of reasons

BUT it is a long jump from being wrong to being anti-sementic just because someone is against the choices of a government that happens to be a religous state

You took the word revolution out of context of what I was saying. I was saying events that cause revolution in the rest of the world, such as repressive dictatorships cause revolutions, seem to have little to no effect on the Arab world.

A lot of the Governments in the Middle East,however,are based on religion,so more often than not the people seem to agree.

You're as bad as Soviestan.It's just a stupid thing to say; "Y'all suck!" Grow up.

it was just harmless trolling :eek:

The American army killed civilians in Iraq this spring,summer,autumn and winter.Happens a lot,unfortunately,it isn't just Israel.

And a lot of people are angry at America for it

But unlike being angry at America someone who is mad at isreal automatically gets the title "Anti semantic" apparently :rolleyes:

it was just harmless trolling :eek:

And trolling is immature,and annoys me.It's fun to start with,but you just get bored of it after a while.

Dont get me wrong I am not convinced he has the right cause, Like many things there are probably a whole host of reasons

BUT it is a long jump from being wrong to being anti-sementic just because someone is against the choices of a government that happens to be a religous state

agreed 100%, but we should be able to debate the point made that the state of isreal has an effect on the arab psyche without some jumped up twit calling us anti-semetic.

too many discussions on this topic get hijacked by this smokescreen

But unlike being angry at America someone who is mad at isreal automatically gets the title "Anti semantic" apparently :rolleyes:

Well,yes,that's the sad thing.Say anything bad against someone of a different culture,you MUST be a racist and deserve to hung,drawn and quartered.

A lot of the Governments in the Middle East,however,are based on religion,so more often than not the people seem to agree.

That is true. Which also ties into Arabs not liking Jews. Sometimes I think the world should just build a large wall around the Middle East and let them fight over their desert by themselves.

You know, the Korean war was a problem for the Koreans. Still, South Korea has built itself into a thriving first world nation. It did all this in spite of the level of destruction and death, despite losing half of it's land and population, and despite the lack of oil.

The only thing standing in the way of most Arab nations doing the same is their stubborn attitude of disdain for all things Western and the fact that they tend to send their kids to schools more to study the Koran than for studying math, science and engineering. As if the Koran can do anything positive for them.


No Arab country spends more than 0.2 percent of its gross national product on scientific research, and most of that money goes toward salaries. By contrast, the United States spends more than 10 times that amount.


Fewer than one in 20 Arab university students pursue scientific disciplines.


There are only 18 computers per 1,000 people in the Arab world. The global average is 78 per 1,000.


Only 370 industrial patents were issued to people in Arab countries between 1980 and 2000. In South Korea during that same period, 16,000 industrial patents were issued.


No more than 10,000 books were translated into Arabic over the entire past millennium, equivalent to the number translated into Spanish each yearhttp://chronicle.com/free/v50/i26/26a03601.htm

I'm not jealous of Israel. I would never want to be like them. And the only reason they have a strong military is because of the Americans. Israel most certainly does not rule, It fails

exactly how? there is absolutely no way any arab force can challange it and israel is a rich and free country which lives by its own values... you have everything to envy... if you do not then the state of the arab world today is what you aspire to (which is obviously not the case)

That is true. Which also ties into Arabs not liking Jews. Sometimes I think the world should just build a large wall around the Middle East and let them fight over their desert by themselves.

Nah,the Americans would think "Oh no,a conflict!We must bring freedom to their land by fighting them!" and just get involved.

That is true. Which also ties into Arabs not liking Jews. Sometimes I think the world should just build a large wall around the Middle East and let them fight over their desert by themselves.

they never seemed to have a problem with jews until the Isreali state was founded....

maybe, just maybe its Isreal they are pissed at and nothing to do with religion? or does that not fit the right wing agenda?

Strawmantastic.

neh... sarcasm

Well,yes,that's the sad thing.Say anything bad against someone of a different culture,you MUST be a racist and deserve to hung,drawn and quartered.

Agreed, that is very true. It is a very sad day when everyone who dislikes someone who happens to be different means they are a racist pig and not a person who dislikes a person for them.

The American army killed civilians in Iraq this spring,summer,autumn and winter.Happens a lot,unfortunately,it isn't just Israel.

I never said that the arabs were right. i am very well aware of what you are saying.

Basically, it's because the Arab world has too many fundamentalist troglodytes who are obsessed with Israel.

Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.
There is no reason why they should obsess over this cause so much. In the west, many of us care about the fate of the Palestinians, but it is not a pathological obsession.

In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Exactly. It's because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West's problem is that it does not understand this.
It seems common fundamentalist behaviour to blame others for problems that are very much your own. See the "she was wearing too little, I couldn't help myself" excuse for rape.

they never seemed to have a problem with jews until the Isreali state was founded....

maybe, just maybe its Isreal they are pissed at and nothing to do with religion? or does that not fit the right wing agenda?

Really? Then explain the riots in that area in the 1920s where Palestinians raped, killed and robbed Jews. Explain why the Palestinians indluding the Mufti of Jerusalem aided and encouraged Hitler both in his war and in his holocaust.

And trolling is immature,and annoys me.It's fun to start with,but you just get bored of it after a while.

i only just started anyways:p

or you could take it as an artistic expression of my opinion of sovietstan... or dont...

That is true. Which also ties into Arabs not liking Jews. Sometimes I think the world should just build a large wall around the Middle East and let them fight over their desert by themselves.

how about just turn the desert to glass? just to make sure:p

If you want to go farther back then DCD we could go to WW I and the Arabs getting pissed off when they found out the Allies lyed to them and split up the Arabia they were promised. Or we could go back to the time of the Persian Empire or when the Palistinans took Isreal from the Jews.

i only just started anyways:p

or you could take it as an artistic expression of my opinion of sovietstan... or dont...

Then quit while you're ahead :)
It was always fun when MTAE did it,but he's gone now,so it's lost its flavour.
I could....COULD....but I'm far too lazy.

If you want to go farther back then DCD we could go to WW I and the Arabs getting pissed off when they found out the Allies lyed to them and split up the Arabia they were promised. Or we could go back to the time of the Persian Empire or when the Palistinans took Isreal from the Jews.

Or we could stop dragging irrelevat wars that happened nearly 100 years ago into the argument?Different people,different times.Especially with the Persian Empire,which doesn't actually exist anymore.So it causes a bit of a rivalry,but no-one really cares.

Well... the notion of Israel = angry Middle East, is not surprising.
I mean, I'm sure it would be the same if say, I dunno... Bulgaria decides to invade some land in California and claim it as their own, and they have global support and whatever. The Americans would be pretty pisseded.

I'm sure some native americains would have something to say about that...

Or we could stop dragging irrelevat wars that happened nearly 100 years ago into the argument?Different people,different times.Especially with the Persian Empire,which doesn't actually exist anymore.So it causes a bit of a rivalry,but no-one really cares.

The whole point was to show The SR that Jewish and Arab conflict has been happening since before the new Israel was created.

The whole point was to show The SR that Jewish and Arab conflict has been happening since before the new Israel was created.

not to anything resembling the scale or intensity it is today. so far one incident that predates the zionist project.

Now, I find his conclusion inane that Arab nations have education, economic, social, and other problems SOLELY because Israel exists. In other words, it's the fault of the "3bil j00z". ...

I find your conclusion inane as he did not say problems existed solely because
Israel exists.

"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons"
Is what he said.


Why did you feel it necessary to replace the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
with Israel exists
why did you further feel it necessary to then say he had claimed it was the
sole problem.

If you are just going to make it up however you want, why bother pretending
to relate it to a real event?

And a lot of people are angry at America for it

But unlike being angry at America someone who is mad at isreal automatically gets the title "Anti semantic" apparently :rolleyes:

"Anti-semantic". You mean they're against wordplay?

"Anti-semantic". You mean they're against wordplay?

Thanks word auto correct ...

No, the problem is the incredibly corrupt dictators and sheikhs who blow billions of dollars on palaces, cars, and sex slaves while their people live in poverty ruled by an iron-fisted government that treats them like human garbage.

Their self-esteems is low because of the crippling poverty, unemployment, repression, and corruption inflicted on them by their leaders.

I could not agree with you more Vetalia.

well, the israeli army did kill civilians in lebanon this summer...

It was a war Swilatia. A war in which the enemy fires from civilian locations thus making those locations military targets under the Geneva Conventions. Do you honestly think Hezbollah cares about that?

Or we could stop dragging irrelevat wars that happened nearly 100 years ago into the argument?Different people,different times.Especially with the Persian Empire,which doesn't actually exist anymore.So it causes a bit of a rivalry,but no-one really cares.

Actually, to the mindset of the region, it is not actually irrelevent but very relevent.

not to anything resembling the scale or intensity it is today. so far one incident that predates the zionist project.

Care to bet? During the time of Xerxes, Hamen wanted to kill all the jews and secured the King's blessing. Unfortunately for him, the Queen was a jew and Hamen was executed and the jews had the blessing of the King to defend themselves from those who want to kill them.

I think people are missing the point. It's not the existence of isreal per se that he is condenming, but rather that the isreal/palastine conflict has so overwhelmed arab thinking that it creates the environment in which such shitty regimes can prosper. From that perspective his answer to the question 'would things be better if isreal did not exist' is clear.

In a sense he's condemning arab ignorance just as much as he condemns the state of the palestinian people.

Obviously he is not a supporter of the current arab regimes, for why else would he desire that his children move to the west?

I'm wasting my breath, of course, or typing fingers or whatever.

I think people are missing the point. It's not the existence of isreal per se that he is condenming, but rather that the isreal/palastine conflict has so overwhelmed arab thinking that it creates the environment in which such shitty regimes can prosper. From that perspective his answer to the question 'would things be better if isreal did not exist' is clear.

In a sense he's condemning arab ignorance just as much as he condemns the state of the palestinian people.

Obviously he is not a supporter of the current arab regimes, for why else would he desire that his children move to the west?

I'm wasting my breath, of course, or typing fingers or whatever.

You do have a good point. If the Arabs want to settle the issue then they should make peace with Israel like Jordan and Egypt have.

Obviously he is not a supporter of the current arab regimes, for why else would he desire that his children move to the west?
Exactly. It's not like Al-Jazeera is particularly popular (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-jazeera#Criticism_and_controversy) with autocratic governments in the Middle East anyways.

Even though some Westerners might not have gotten the message, AJ is a free media station that calls things as it sees it, from an Arab perspective. The views debated on their panel programs and talkshows could get you locked away in many if not most Arab countries.

In the Arab world, AJ is a beacon of free speech.

You do have a good point. If the Arabs want to settle the issue then they should make peace with Israel like Jordan and Egypt have.

*cough two biggest sell outs of the middle east cough*

*cough two biggest sell outs of the middle east cough*

And how is peace selling out? Egypt got the Sinai back when they signed their peace treaty with Israel. If the Palestinians want total control of the West Bank and Gaza, make peace with Israel and it is yours.

Exactly. It's not like Al-Jazeera is particularly popular (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-jazeera#Criticism_and_controversy) with autocratic governments in the Middle East anyways.

Even though some Westerners might not have gotten the message, AJ is a free media station that calls things as it sees it, from an Arab perspective. The views debated on their panel programs and talkshows could get you locked away in many if not most Arab countries.

In the Arab world, AJ is a beacon of free speech.

Well, you have to figure that since every government in the world pretty much hates them, they must be getting something right. ;)

I've never actually been against them. Funnily enough, before the recent contretemps with the middle east, they were actually lauded as the free voice of the middle east in the US.

People forget that though.

*cough two biggest sell outs of the middle east cough*

When is the last time Jordon got bombed again?

When is the last time Jordon got bombed again?

And Egypt too.

*cough two biggest sell outs of the middle east cough*

Wait. I thought islam was about peace. Isn't it a peaceful religion that eschews violence. I mean, after all, no 'true' muslim would commit an act of unprovoked violence.

So how are they sell outs for making peace?

And Egypt too.

yep, was it '76?

yep, was it '76?

It was in 1979 that the peace treaty was signed between Egypt and Israel.

Wait. I thought islam was about peace. Isn't it a peaceful religion that eschews violence. I mean, after all, no 'true' muslim would commit an act of unprovoked violence.

So how are they sell outs for making peace?

Your right however the very existence of Israel is provoctive. They declared war on the entire Muslim world in '48 when they came into being. Their will not peace until the israelis are out of Palestine.

They are sell outs because the only reason they argeed to the bloody peace agreements was so that they could get money and support from the west. As Muslims we should do what is right, not what makes us richer.

When is the last time Jordon got bombed again?

And Egypt too.

they don't get bombed because they are cowards who surrendered to the zionists.

Your right however the very existence of Israel is provoctive. They declared war on the entire Muslim world in '48 when they came into being. Their will not peace until the israelis are out of Palestine.

They are sell outs because the only reason they argeed to the bloody peace agreements was so that they could get money and support from the west. As Muslims we should do what is right, not what makes us richer.

So would you be happy if isreal went back to the '48 borders agreed upon by the UN? Or do you think that Isreal should not exist?

I wish I had a promised land that I could go to and kick people out of.

So would you be happy if isreal went back to the '48 borders agreed upon by the UN? Or do you think that Isreal should not exist?

I would be happy if they went back to the 48 borders and ended the occupation, I could live with that. I would be happier if they weren't there at all, though. That said the way the situation is currently, is unacceptable.

A quote from Sayriana should answer this...

"100 years ago, these men were living in tents and running around chopping each others' heads off and that's where they're gonna be in another hundred."

I may have paraphased the quote, but the point is made.I was thinking of that exact line right before I saw your post!
Matt Damon's charachter was pretty swish.
"So, yes, on behalf of my firm, I accept your money."

Blaming Israel for all their problems is just a symbol of the deep denial (on a variety of fronts) that's prominent in the national psyches of middle eastern countries.

I wish I had a promised land that I could go to and kick people out of.

I do. But they won't let me. :mad:

they don't get bombed because they are cowards who surrendered to the zionists.

No. They signed a peace treaty because it was the proper thing to do. They recognized that Israel is here to stay and ended the war. I give them kudos for that you racist pig.

Dont get me wrong I am not convinced he has the right cause, Like many things there are probably a whole host of reasons

BUT it is a long jump from being wrong to being anti-sementic just because someone is against the choices of a government that happens to be a religous stateI think there is a connection in this case. The fact that the editor of al-jazeera, and a sizable amount of the arab world along with him, irrationally blame Israel for their domestic failings, and the fact that same Israel is populated by Jews that repeatedly kick their asses in wars are highly relevant to each other. He said himslef that it was a penis-size issue. Whether it's Israel or Jews that bear the brunt of the scapegoatism is really more or less the same in this case. To your garden-variety arab muslim small-dick bigot, the two are one and the same.

No. They signed a peace treaty because it was the proper thing to do. They recognized that Israel is here to stay and ended the war. I give them kudos for that you racist pig.

right.....and israel doesn't torture kids:rolleyes: When your ready to come back to reality, let me know.

right.....and israel doesn't torture kids:rolleyes: When your ready to come back to reality, let me know.

The only disconnected with reality is you. I have never stated that Israel is always right. I just stated that both Egypt (who got land back) and Jordan (who got some territory back as well) recognized the reality of the situation and signed a peace deal (which gave them said land back) with Israel.

When you are ready to come back to reality, let me know.

Well... the notion of Israel = angry Middle East, is not surprising.
I mean, I'm sure it would be the same if say, I dunno... Bulgaria decides to invade some land in California and claim it as their own, and they have global support and whatever. The Americans would be pretty pisseded.

But does that mean the economy of New York would collapse?
How would it affect Maine?

According to this every other state would be ruined just because Bulgaria took over California.

Oh and

Israel stole my wallet.

right.....and israel doesn't torture kids:rolleyes:

While we're hysterically squawking "think of the children!", maybe we should remind ourselves how many children are dying in Egypt from Israeli shells, compared to in the Gaza Strip.

While we're hysterically squawking "think of the children!", maybe we should remind ourselves how many children are dying in Egypt from Israeli shells, compared to in the Gaza Strip.
None... and as of right now... None.

None... and as of right now... None.

That was my point ;)

I think people are missing the point. It's not the existence of isreal per se that he is condenming, but rather that the isreal/palastine conflict has so overwhelmed arab thinking that it creates the environment in which such shitty regimes can prosper. From that perspective his answer to the question 'would things be better if isreal did not exist' is clear.

In a sense he's condemning arab ignorance just as much as he condemns the state of the palestinian people.

Obviously he is not a supporter of the current arab regimes, for why else would he desire that his children move to the west?

I'm wasting my breath, of course, or typing fingers or whatever.You raise a good point, though maybe you're attributing to him a level of logic he didn't quite state. The guy recognizes the problems his society faces (lack of education, dictatorships, and as implied religion too) and to some degree he understands that the paralysis in the arab world in terms of development somehow hinges on the psychological obsession with Israel. He still states that Israel is the cause of the problem though - not the psycholgocal paralysis it purportedly induces. I don't think he actually implied the meta-level logic you inferred to his words.

The only disconnected with reality is you. I have never stated that Israel is always right. I just stated that both Egypt (who got land back) and Jordan (who got some territory back as well) recognized the reality of the situation and signed a peace deal (which gave them said land back) with Israel.

When you are ready to come back to reality, let me know.

And in doing so, turned their back on Islamic princples and sold their soul. They basically said, "Hey, if you give us some of our land back and money, we will stop caring about and defending the oppressed." unacceptable.

And in doing so, turned their back on Islamic princples and sold their soul. They basically said, "Hey, if you give us some of our land back and money, we will stop caring about and defending the oppressed." unacceptable.meh.They both have a much better chance of contributing positively apropos of the Palestinians (if that's who you mean by "the opressed") as brokers and negotiators now than they would have had if they were still waging innefectual wars against Israel. Pragmatism FTW.

meh.They both have a much better chance of contributing positively apropos of the Palestinians (if that's who you mean by "the opressed") as brokers and negotiators now than they would have had if they were still waging innefectual wars against Israel. Pragmatism FTW.

No wars against the occupiers of Muslim land are ineffective in the eyes of Allah. So long as the intent is just, the result is not important and those who fight will be rewarded with paradise.

No wars against the occupiers of Muslim land are ineffective in the eyes of Allah. So long as the intent is just, the result is not important and those who fight will be rewarded with paradise.
BAHAhahhaaaaaaha

I forgot that you don't care about people. You're saving up for your 72 virigins.

BAHAhahhaaaaaaha

I forgot that you don't care about people. You're saving up for your 72 virigins.

you do know the 72 virgins is a myth right?

You raise a good point, though maybe you're attributing to him a level of logic he didn't quite state. The guy recognizes the problems his society faces (lack of education, dictatorships, and as implied religion too) and to some degree he understands that the paralysis in the arab world in terms of development somehow hinges on the psychological obsession with Israel. He still states that Israel is the cause of the problem though - not the psycholgocal paralysis it purportedly induces. I don't think he actually implied the meta-level logic you inferred to his words.

Regardless, the guy is clearly not a radical. And he has idenitified the obsession with isreal/palastine as being a large part of the problem with the arab world. Moreover he seems to recognize that it is tangential to the actual problems that they face.

I actually think that his answer about isreal is logical from his perspective, but he's the type of guy who would also rather isreal existed and the fighting just stopped.

In other words I don't see him as the OP painted him.

You know, nothing like an israel/middle east/arabs debate to start the day, huh?

I read part of the discussion, so I apologize in adavnce if anything said here would be repeatitive or just plain annoying.

First of all, to say that arab nations are based on religion is wrong, Eygpt, Lebanon, Syria, Jorden, Iraq and Marocco are not religion driven. it's true that he religious factor is strong there, but by no mean it controls the state.
Second, Turkey is a muslim country which by all mean doesn't reject western culutre, again, on the contrary.

So, when talking about the arab world, one needs to make notice that they are not all the same, generalizing arabs is quite wrong.... and want to hear the funny part about that statement? I'm an israeli jew.... ironic, huh?

Regardless, the guy is clearly not a radical. And he has idenitified the obsession with isreal/palastine as being a large part of the problem with the arab world. Moreover he seems to recognize that it is tangential to the actual problems that they face.

I actually think that his answer about isreal is logical from his perspective, but he's the type of guy who would also rather isreal existed and the fighting just stopped.

In other words I don't see him as the OP painted him.I agree that he isn't radical. As someone mentioned, Al-jazeera is a free jounalistic enterprise, which doesn't heel to authoratarians or religious dudes. He wants to send his grandkids to schools where they can learn languages and technology skills. Clearly he's a western-oriented person that wants development, democracy and prosperity for his region. But in a way the fact that he, as such a person that I just described, still said this -
Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so. - is even more depressing than if some whacko sheikh said it.

You know, nothing like an israel/middle east/arabs debate to start the day, huh?

I read part of the discussion, so I apologize in adavnce if anything said here would be repeatitive or just plain annoying.

First of all, to say that arab nations are based on religion is wrong, Eygpt, Lebanon, Syria, Jorden, Iraq and Marocco are not religion driven. it's true that he religious factor is strong there, but by no mean it controls the state.
Second, Turkey is a muslim country which by all mean doesn't reject western culutre, again, on the contrary.

So, when talking about the arab world, one needs to make notice that they are not all the same, generalizing arabs is quite wrong.... and want to hear the funny part about that statement? I'm an israeli jew.... ironic, huh?
Yeah, totally crazy! To think that there are Israelis that don't lump arabs into generalized and negative categories! impossible!

In seriousness though, the countries that you mentioned, that were part of the now-defunct pan-arab movement are having a harder and harder time keeping their administrations, let alone their countries' societies secular. In fact, they can only hang on to power through authoratarianism, because Islamists are more popular than they are.

And in doing so, turned their back on Islamic princples and sold their soul. They basically said, "Hey, if you give us some of our land back and money, we will stop caring about and defending the oppressed." unacceptable.

You mean defending the oppressed by

"Giving money so people can make crappy rockets that MISS, causing Israel to fire rockets back that KILL the oppressed, basicly doing nothing but hurting themselves."

"Giving money to brainwash kids into strapping Bombs onto them so they could blow themselves up along with the 'oppressors' causing the 'oppressors' to kill MORE of them.


Don't you FREAKING GET IT ALREADY!!

Southern Syrian=Kills Israeli #= #x10 Southern Syrians killed in return.

Do the math, they are only hurting themselves.
Way to 'save' them huh? Uh the goal of a war is to make the OTHER side lose more people. It proves that those groups don't give a DAMN about the 'oppressed' they just hate Israel and they will use ANYONE they can to try and destroy them. Because I guess there are plenty of supplies of 'oppressed' to use as weapons.

If one of those nations were given a weapon that would kill everyone in Israel, Jewish and non, I bet most of them would use it, because it's no longer about the 'oppressed' it's about pure hatred. The meaning of this war has been lost, it's tit for tat now. It's like what's going on now in Iraq. It's all revenge.

You mean defending the oppressed by

"Giving money so people can make crappy rockets that MISS, causing Israel to fire rockets back that KILL the oppressed, basicly doing nothing but hurting themselves."

"Giving money to brainwash kids into strapping Bombs onto them so they could blow themselves up along with the 'oppressors' causing the 'oppressors' to kill MORE of them.


Don't you FREAKING GET IT ALREADY!!

Southern Syrian=Kills Israeli #= #x10 Southern Syrians killed in return.

Do the math, they are only hurting themselves.
Way to 'save' them huh? Uh the goal of a war is to make the OTHER side lose more people. It proves that those groups don't give a DAMN about the 'oppressed' they just hate Israel and they will use ANYONE they can to try and destroy them. Because I guess there are plenty of supplies of 'oppressed' to use as weapons.
What do you expect when King Saud said the following after Partition was voted:

"There are 50 million Arabs. What does it matter if we lose 10 million people to kill all the Jews? The price is worth it."

I agree that he isn't radical. As someone mentioned, Al-jazeera is a free jounalistic enterprise, which doesn't heel to authoratarians or religious dudes. He wants to send his grandkids to schools where they can learn languages and technology skills. Clearly he's a western-oriented person that wants development, democracy and prosperity for his region. But in a way the fact that he, as such a person that I just described, still said this -
- is even more depressing than if some whacko sheikh said it.

You could find people in the pennine towns of england who would say the same type of thing about islam. It's not that the want it wiped out per se, but just that if didn't exist their world woudl be so much easier.

It's not that the want it wiped out per se, but just that if didn't exist their world woudl be so much easier.

Agreed. Well put, sir!

Your such a racist - thread creator....

Your such a racist - thread creator.... ????
Not really, it seems like that's what the person interviewed is saying so it's rather accurate.

And in doing so, turned their back on Islamic princples and sold their soul. They basically said, "Hey, if you give us some of our land back and money, we will stop caring about and defending the oppressed." unacceptable.

Since when have arab dictatorships cared about the opressed?

Syria 1982 (a few months before the beriut massacre) The syrian army uses artillery to put down a revolt in the city of Hama, 15 000 people are killed, 3 months later the arab world screams for blood as 1000 palestinians are killed by forces allied to Israel.

You only to look at Iraq to see how much value arab countries put in human life.
US invades and topples the government, insurgents fight back by using car bombs to kill fellow muslims and not the US invaders..:confused:

But the big reason the Israel-Palestinian conflict goes on , is because it suits the arab dictatorships that it does so.
When things are going badly for them they can always rely on shouting 'Look what the evil Israelis are doing to an innocent palestinian " while their own security police are busy arresting and shooting anyone protesting.

El-presidente Boris

I guess you think that Israel was founded by Danes?

The British, actually, as anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge on the subject would know.

The British, actually, as anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge on the subject would know.

A little bit of that, a little bit of this.... it's pretty much amalgam

Not really, it seems like that's what the person interviewed is saying so it's rather accurate.
No, the interviewee said that the Middle East would be better off without Israel.

This is what annoys me most about some people on this topic, who continue to say that you can't be anti-Israeli without being an anti-Semite.

I have Jewish friends. I do not like the state of Israel. The two can be exclusive, you know.

While we're hysterically squawking "think of the children!", maybe we should remind ourselves how many children are dying in Egypt from Israeli shells, compared to in the Gaza Strip.

don't you mean how many Egyptian children are dying in suicide attacks done by Hamas?

Huh.... last time israel attacked Eypgt was in 73.....

And in doing so, turned their back on Islamic princples and sold their soul.

Yea right. That is so far off base, it is not even funny. Theyhave not turned their backs on Islamic principles (though you are not exactly in accordance with them either) nor did they sell their souls.

Which islamic principles? Shiites or Suuns?

No wars against the occupiers of Muslim land are ineffective in the eyes of Allah. So long as the intent is just, the result is not important and those who fight will be rewarded with paradise.

And what is just about killing innocent men, women, and children by blowing them up using suicide bombers inside shopping malls, restaurants, nightclubs, etc?

Which islamic principles? Shiites or Suuns?

You have to ask him which sect he is.

And what is just about killing innocent men, women, and children by blowing them up using suicide bombers inside shopping malls, restaurants, nightclubs, etc?
Instead of killing people with airstrikes, or smashing their houses down, or indiscriminate artillery fire, which is OK because at least the murderer isn't putting themself in any danger, right?

Instead of killing people with airstrikes, or smashing their houses down, or indiscriminate artillery fire, which is OK because at least the murderer isn't putting themself in any danger, right?

it's called a valid warfare doctorine, minimum casualties to allies, maximum demage to the enemy.... and don't blame me, it's what every modern nation used....

Instead of killing people with airstrikes, or smashing their houses down, or indiscriminate artillery fire, which is OK because at least the murderer isn't putting themself in any danger, right?

Most IDF artillery fire is not indiscriminate but targeting where the terrorists are hiding. Terrrorists mind you that hide among civilians thus increasing the risk of civilian casualities. Civilian casualties are regretable but in every war fought, it has occured. In regards to civilian deaths, most of those deaths can be laid at the feet of the terrorists because they used said civilians as human shields against the IDF. That is the Geneva Conventions that if human shields die in war, it is the person using said people for it that is responsible and not the side actually attacking.

Israel has the right to self-defense and that is what they are doing. Defending themselves. People may not like what they are doing to defend themselves (and that includes me from time to time) but they do have the right to defend themselves.

Most IDF artillery fire is not indiscriminate but targeting where the terrorists are hiding. Terrrorists mind you that hide among civilians thus increasing the risk of civilian casualities. Civilian casualties are regretable but in every war fought, it has occured. In regards to civilian deaths, most of those deaths can be laid at the feet of the terrorists because they used said civilians as human shields against the IDF. That is the Geneva Conventions that if human shields die in war, it is the person using said people for it that is responsible and not the side actually attacking.

Israel has the right to self-defense and that is what they are doing. Defending themselves. People may not like what they are doing to defend themselves (and that includes me from time to time) but they do have the right to defend themselves.

So basically, sucks to be those civilians being used as human shields and we won't bother to find ways to minimise civilian casualties or find a diplomatic solution? Hell, if they really were serious about minimising civilian casualties, why not use ground forces? Oh, because Israeli soldiers might actually have to fight on an equal basis with the enemy. Instead of murdering entire villages to get one or two possible "terrorists".

Most IDF artillery fire is not indiscriminate but targeting where the terrorists are hiding. Terrrorists mind you that hide among civilians thus increasing the risk of civilian casualities. Civilian casualties are regretable but in every war fought, it has occured. In regards to civilian deaths, most of those deaths can be laid at the feet of the terrorists because they used said civilians as human shields against the IDF. That is the Geneva Conventions that if human shields die in war, it is the person using said people for it that is responsible and not the side actually attacking.

Israel has the right to self-defense and that is what they are doing. Defending themselves. People may not like what they are doing to defend themselves (and that includes me from time to time) but they do have the right to defend themselves.

its always 'their' fault isnt it.

your boring

I guess you think that Israel was founded by Danes?

He never says "Jews". You may have noticed that in the middle east they tend to be fairly unconcernced what the West thinks a lot of the time and say "Jews" when they mean "Jews". He didn't mention "Jews".

Most IDF artillery fire is not indiscriminate but targeting where the terrorists are hiding.
.

...according to the IDF.


Israel has the right to self-defense and that is what they are doing. Defending themselves. People may not like what they are doing to defend themselves (and that includes me from time to time) but they do have the right to defend themselves.

How is building civillian colonies outside its 1967 borders "self defense"?

Your right however the very existence of Israel is provoctive. They declared war on the entire Muslim world in '48 when they came into being. Their will not peace until the israelis are out of Palestine.

There will not be peace until people want peace. What if there was a war, and nobody came?

Israel never declared war on the entire Muslim world; what does Indonesia have to say about this?

No wars against the occupiers of Muslim land are ineffective in the eyes of Allah. So long as the intent is just, the result is not important and those who fight will be rewarded with paradise.
Rubbish, of course the result is important. You're just throwing away the idea of helping people in the name of your own self-righteousness.

it's called a valid warfare doctorine, minimum casualties to allies, maximum demage to the enemy.... and don't blame me, it's what every modern nation used....
You fool, that legitimises every pro-Palestinian bomber who targets civilians.

its always 'their' fault isnt it.

You're not exactly unbiased.

You're not exactly unbiased.

of course not, but im not naive/programmed/propagandising enough to blame one side 100%. Im unashamedly on the Palestinans side in this conflict, but utterly oppose the suicide bombing tactic.

Even when the IDF admit they fucked up as they did with the shelling incident, the apologists still come on and blame the victims.

of course not, but im not naive/programmed/propagandising enough to blame one side 100%. Im unashamedly on the Palestinans side in this conflict, but utterly oppose the suicide bombing tactic.

Even when the IDF admit they fucked up as they did with the shelling incident, the apologists still come on and blame the victims.
I agree with you, but in fairness I've never seen you do anything but blame Israel entirely.

I agree with you, but in fairness I've never seen you do anything but blame Israel entirely.

well when was the last time the Palestinans killed a load of Israelis and someone on this site denied it happend?

My role on this site is to counter right wing bullshit, and we had it all summer through the Lebanese fiasco.

[quote]Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so.

- is even more depressing than if some whacko sheikh said it.

Given that those countries have spent a fair amount of money on the Israeli-Palestine conflict and related wars etc etc then had Israel not existed that money would have been available for other things. It wouldn't necessarily have been diverted into those areas but it's hardly outrageous for him to have an opinion that it would have been.

Also:


Now, I find his conclusion inane that Arab nations have education, economic, social, and other problems SOLELY because Israel exists. In other words, it's the fault of the "3bil j00z". ...


I find your conclusion inane as he did not say problems existed solely because
Israel exists.

"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons"
Is what he said.


Why did you feel it necessary to replace the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
with Israel exists
why did you further feel it necessary to then say he had claimed it was the
sole problem.

If you are just going to make it up however you want, why bother pretending
to relate it to a real event?
QFT

So basically, sucks to be those civilians being used as human shields and we won't bother to find ways to minimise civilian casualties or find a diplomatic solution? Hell, if they really were serious about minimising civilian casualties, why not use ground forces? Oh, because Israeli soldiers might actually have to fight on an equal basis with the enemy. Instead of murdering entire villages to get one or two possible "terrorists".

If Israel wanted to, they could've cause a hell of a lot more civilian casualties. They have done their best to minimize civilian casualties. As to a diplomatic solution, that would be very nice however, you have the extremists on both sides who do not want to have peace. As to using ground forces, Israel has used ground forces in the past for that very reason. To say that they have not used ground forces in the past is ludicrous.

its always 'their' fault isnt it.

your boring

I did not say that it is alway's "their" fault. I'm stating that the Israel has the right to self defense.

...according to the IDF.

And I bet you believe what the terrorists are saying on their networks?

How is building civillian colonies outside its 1967 borders "self defense"?

Was I talking about their settlements? No I do not believe I was.

You fool, that legitimises every pro-Palestinian bomber who targets civilians.

I never said I agree with that doctorine, but it's one that every armed force will aim at... because it.... logical.

And I bet you believe what the terrorists are saying on their networks?
.

so because she questions that IDF she is automatically a terrorist?

grow up.

so because she questions that IDF she is automatically a terrorist?

grow up.

Why don't you stop reading things into my posts that are not there.

He never says "Jews". You may have noticed that in the middle east they tend to be fairly unconcernced what the West thinks a lot of the time and say "Jews" when they mean "Jews". He didn't mention "Jews".

Yes, but as far as I can tell, most people in the Arab World make little to no distinction between jews and Israel. From what I've seen, being Jewish there automatically makes you a bloodthirsty zionist. That does not mean that, as a jew, I believe anyone who criticizes Israel is antisemetic. I think people are perfectly right to criticize some of Israel's tactics. But it's obvious that most opposition to Israel is now (and I say now because, if anyone would care to remember, Jews and Muslims actually have a fairly good history of mutual tolerance up until recently) born at least in part from the antisemitism in the Middle East.

Why don't you stop reading things into my posts that are not there.

Can't be done, if you haven't noticed, in this reality, and in this forum, people apply their own way of thinking on others, assuming by doing so, things that aren't there.

Why don't you stop reading things into my posts that are not there.


And I bet you believe what the terrorists are saying on their networks?

how else is it to be read?

the world doesnt happen in black and white.

they shelled a beach during the summer and a market recently. people are entitled to ask questions.

how else is it to be read?

the world doesnt happen in black and white.

they shelled a beach during the summer and a market recently. people are entitled to ask questions.

Asking questions of one side, and relying on the answer of one side.... that wouldn't be called "asking questions" but rather appeasing one thoughts.

Can't be done, if you haven't noticed, in this reality, and in this forum, people apply their own way of thinking on others, assuming by doing so, things that aren't there.

I've been around long enough to know that but still I say it anyways even though it does no good.

Can't be done, if you haven't noticed, in this reality, and in this forum, people apply their own way of thinking on others, assuming by doing so, things that aren't there.

he equated questioning the IDF with believing what terrorists had to say.

not me. him.

how else is it to be read?

A normal to question to ask.

the world doesnt happen in black and white.

No shit sherlock holmes.

they shelled a beach during the summer and a market recently. people are entitled to ask questions.

Yes they are entitled to ask questions. I did not say that they couldn't. So why don't you grow up and actually look at the world from both sides and not just one or the other.

Yes they are entitled to ask questions. I did not say that they couldn't. So why don't you grow up and actually look at the world from both sides and not just one or the other.

that is deeply ironic from you.

the IDF have had too many identical shelling incidents to just fob us off and say 'we will investigate' and shelve it.

Asking questions of one side, and relying on the answer of one side.... that wouldn't be called "asking questions" but rather appeasing one thoughts.

that doesnt make any sense in the context of Nodonia questioning the IDF version of events that all neutral observors dispute.

even a discussion about al-Jazeera's head making an observation turns into a Zionist propaganda piece and guilt appeasment thread.

that is deeply ironic from you.

You do not kknow me so to say something is Ironic from me is rather idiotic.

the IDF have had too many identical shelling incidents to just fob us off and say 'we will investigate' and shelve it.

At least they do investigate it. How come no one investigates Hamas or Hezbollah or even Fatah? Oh yes, I forgot! Only Israel is capable of doing evil.

that is deeply ironic from you.

the IDF have had too many identical shelling incidents to just fob us off and say 'we will investigate' and shelve it.



that doesnt make any sense in the context of Nodonia questioning the IDF version of events that all neutral observors dispute.

even a discussion about al-Jazeera's head making an observation turns into a Zionist propaganda piece and guilt appeasment thread.

Forget the media, have you personally talked with all the people on both sides in order to have a clear and correct picture of events?
Or you took the pieces you see fit and filled in the void with your own beliefs?

You do not kknow me so to say something is Ironic from me is rather idiotic.

all your posts on this sublect defend Isreal regardless. Robotic. For you to lecture others about thinking for themselves is a joke


At least they do investigate it. How come no one investigates Hamas or Hezbollah or even Fatah? Oh yes, I forgot! Only Israel is capable of doing evil.

How many people on this site defend Hamas or Hezbollah or Fatah with the consistancy and ferocity that those who defend Israel do? No-one denies the incident even happened on the occasions the Palestinians attack Israel.

And if you cant tell why Israel should be held to a higher benchmark I despair.

You know I always come to the point of intent in this conversation....
I blame israel in wrongful manslaughter, while the terrorists in murder of the first degree...
Cause you see, I personally know people who serve as infantry or in the IAF, and I do know that the don't want to kill women and children... that's far from it, due to the nature of the Israeli army of being a draft army, most of the people just want to get out of the army, and live a quiet life, they don't want this war, they just want to get laid, eat good food, and watch good TV.
While, the concept of suicide bombing.... killing yourself and in the process killing others who just happen to be there.... doesn't sit well with my idea of living being preserving their own life.

all your posts on this sublect defend Isreal regardless. Robotic. For you to lecture others about thinking for themselves is a joke

Again, you do not know me. I am arguing from a pro-Israeli position hence the pro-israeli statements I am making. You say you are here to counter the so called "right wing bullshit". But who is going to counter the so called "Anti-Israeli bullshit"?

I am arguing one side of a debate here. I am doing my best to follow proper debating techniques. To launch a character attack the way you have on me, shows you have no position. Why don't we try to debate in a civilized manner without the character attacks? I have had decent debates with people I disagree with in the past on this board. In the end, we both presented our information and acknowledged eachother and moved on. No character attacks, no insults, and no flames.

As a debator, I am arguing on the Pro-Israeli side. With that said, I am stating that if the Arabs make peace with Israel, the region will begin to settle down as Palestine will have its own state. That's the whole key to this entire debate, a state for the Palestinians.

Now if I was arguing from the otherside, I would be doing the exactly the samething I am doing now in regards to arguing the Pro-Israeli side.

Next time, do not make character assumptions on someone when you do not know the person.


How many people on this site defend Hamas or Hezbollah or Fatah with the consistancy and ferocity that those who defend Israel do? No-one denies the incident even happened on the occasions the Palestinians attack Israel.

You are indeed correct. However, there are many on this board who praise such attacks on civilians. I can think of one right off the top of my head, UB.

And if you cant tell why Israel should be held to a higher benchmark I despair.

They should. I have not denied that they shouldn't be.

To say that the Israeli state does not contribute to some if not all of the issues in the middle east is foolish. Israel is a irritant on the whole of the Arab and Muslim world everyday.

So basicly the Arab world is so fragile that it cannot stand anyone who isnt Arab? Doesnt that mean then that you are saying that Arabs are hideously intollerant.

Even when the IDF admit they fucked up as they did with the shelling incident, the apologists still come on and blame the victims.

Actually, the shelling incident is still under investigation. The Human rights watch report says that it wasnt the Isralie battleship, as the shell explosion was too large. Early investigation suggests that it was a Palestian rocket misfire.

Again, you do not know me. I am arguing from a pro-Israeli position hence the pro-israeli statements I am making. You say you are here to counter the so called "right wing bullshit". But who is going to counter the so called "Anti-Israeli bullshit"?

I am arguing one side of a debate here. I am doing my best to follow proper debating techniques. To launch a character attack the way you have on me, shows you have no position. Why don't we try to debate in a civilized manner without the character attacks? I have had decent debates with people I disagree with in the past on this board. In the end, we both presented our information and acknowledged eachother and moved on. No character attacks, no insults, and no flames.

As a debator, I am arguing on the Pro-Israeli side. With that said, I am stating that if the Arabs make peace with Israel, the region will begin to settle down as Palestine will have its own state. That's the whole key to this entire debate, a state for the Palestinians.

Now if I was arguing from the otherside, I would be doing the exactly the samething I am doing now in regards to arguing the Pro-Israeli side.

Next time, do not make character assumptions on someone when you do not know the person.




You are indeed correct. However, there are many on this board who praise such attacks on civilians. I can think of one right off the top of my head, UB.



They should. I have not denied that they shouldn't be.So you are for a state for the Palestinians.
In what borders? Inside the Israeli wall?

Actually, the shelling incident is still under investigation. The Human rights watch report says that it wasnt the Isralie battleship, as the shell explosion was too large. Early investigation suggests that it was a Palestian rocket misfire.

i was actually referring to the other shelling incident more recently in the market.

there are so many of them

So you are for a state for the Palestinians.
In what borders? Inside the Israeli wall?

Basicly the borders that Arafat turned down would have been sufficient for me.

And I never said I wasn't for one.

Basicly the borders that Arafat turned down would have been sufficient for me.

And I never said I wasn't for one.

You are aware that you just entered a never ending cycle of holier than thou dogmatic debate?

Basicly the borders that Arafat turned down would have been sufficient for me.

And I never said I wasn't for one.Do you know at all what those borders were? http://www.palestine-pmc.com/maps/2-9-05.pdf

And if you aren't for one you're an anti-Semite.

more maps http://www.palestine-pmc.com/maps.asp
especially http://www.palestine-pmc.com/maps/20-8-05.pdf

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/maps/oslo.jpg<-- Oslo Accord

You are aware that you just entered a never ending cycle of holier than thou dogmatic debate?

Unknown apathy, I've been debating this issue for quite sometime, both on this forum and in the classroom. But yea, I know. Luckily for me though, UB finally realizes that I do support a Palestinian state.

Unknown apathy, I've been debating this issue for quite sometime, both on this forum and in the classroom. But yea, I know. Luckily for me though, UB finally realizes that I do support a Palestinian state.

Which he believe should rise on the ashes of the israeli state...
Not all people are so accepting and enlighted as some people here who, while oppose israel actions, do not want it's destruction.

Do you know at all what those borders were?

Yes I do know what those borders are.

And if you aren't for one you're an anti-Semite.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
Palestinians are Semites, are they not?

Palestinians are Semites, are they not?

So are jews. I guess not wanting an Israeli state is also anti-semitism by his definition.

Palestinians are Semites, are they not?Yes. Unlike most jOOz.

So are jews but to say that if one does not want a palestinian state is anti-semitism is really idiotic.

No more idiotic than the claim that one who doesn't want an Israeli state is anti-semetic.

Yes. Unlike most jOOz.

Oh my God in Heaven.

well when was the last time the Palestinans killed a load of Israelis and someone on this site denied it happend?

How many people on this site defend Hamas or Hezbollah or Fatah with the consistancy and ferocity that those who defend Israel do? No-one denies the incident even happened on the occasions the Palestinians attack Israel.
It's not the same. On your "side" of this issue (and keep in mind my views on it*) it's more common to simply deny that groups who are obviously terrorists, are terrorists.

*That Israel is an apartheid state that needs some serious changes. Palestinians also need to recognise that Israel is here to stay and that they must stop attacking Israel. Israelis must withraw to the 1967 borders, and aid the Palestinians in setting up an independent Palestine.

No more idiotic than the claim that one who doesn't want an Israeli state is anti-semetic.

Yep.

Yes. Unlike most jOOz.

Seems that it's mentally painful for you to articulate the word in the right fashion.
And please, show me your genealogy tables concerning jews and arabs... I find it interesting...

And I bet you believe what the terrorists are saying on their networks?.

I'm unsure what would constitute a "terrorist" network, though a number of smart arse answers come to mind. However I don't accept statements at face value from Palestinian groupings, no.


Was I talking about their settlements? No I do not believe I was.

Settlements cause violence. Settlements are the target of violence and defending them requires violence. Settlements serve what purpose - are they offensive or defensive in nature? If IDF actions take place in order to defend settlements, and settlements are by nature an aggressive, offensive tactic, then the IDF claim of self defence is not as straight forward as it might first seem.

I'm unsure what would constitute a "terrorist" network, though a number of smart arse answers come to mind. However I don't accept statements at face value from Palestinian groupings, no.

Just making sure.

Settlements cause violence. Settlements are the target of violence and defending them requires violence.

Then why the violence in Haifa? Tel Aviv? Jerusalem? Other towns and villages that are not settlements?

Settlements serve what purpose - are they offensive or defensive in nature?

I'm not in Israel so was not there when these are put up. Nor have I talked to the people who actually sat it up to know one way or the other.

If IDF actions take place in order to defend settlements, and settlements are by nature an aggressive, offensive tactic, then the IDF claim of self defence is not as straight forward as it might first seem.

If they are there defending Israeli citizens then yes, a claim can be stated that they are acting in self-defense. They are defending their citizens from attacks. That is by nature, self-defense.

Oh my God in Heaven.

I think(hope) hes being sarcastic.

Oh, the settlements? they exist because some idiots in my country still think that we need to aspire to a greater israel... and some idiots think that once you settle there, it yours.... like good ol' taming the wild american west...

As I said, idiots.

I think(hope) hes being sarcastic.

I sure as hell hope he is being sarcastic.

Seems that it's mentally painful for you to articulate the word in the right fashion.
And please, show me your genealogy tables concerning jews and arabs... I find it interesting...Do you believe that in all the 1900 years in Europe Jews did not mingle with Europeans? And that no Jews are the offspring of converts?
Oh, I forgot that Jews are not supposed to get in relationships with non-Jews. ...Where is my Bible...?
Boy, Maltese are more Semitic than Jews.

Seems that it's mentally painful for you to articulate the word in the right fashion.
And please, show me your genealogy tables concerning jews and arabs... I find it interesting...

Look at the thread title.

Do you believe that in all the 1900 years in Europe Jews did not mingle with Europeans? And that no Jews are the offspring of converts?
Oh, I forgot that Jews are not supposed to get in relationships with non-Jews. ...Where is my Bible...?

But I can say that the three sons of noah didn't really exist, and they use of the name of Shem, is symbolic and valid to every one who practice judaism, Christianity and islam, due to the fact that the legacy started with him, and later split to the other religions... so, the ball is your field. ^_^

so because she questions that IDF she is automatically a terrorist?



"he". I think the "....inia" at the end of my usual nomme de guerre give the opposite impression however.


At least they do investigate it. How come no one investigates Hamas or Hezbollah or even Fatah?

Were you to check the pages of HRW, B'tselem etc you'll find various reports on them. You might also note that its the democractically elected Hamas Government under sanctions at the moment for not recognising Israel or renouncing violence. They were elected in Jan 2006. Israel has been building colonies outside its borders for near on 40 years in what is effectively an apartheid state, and I think we know what sanctions have been brought against them.

But I can say that the three sons of noah didn't really exist, and they use of the name of Shem, is symbolic and valid to every one who practice judaism, Christianity and islam, due to the fact that the legacy started with him, and later split to the other religions... so, the ball is your field. ^_^The term Semitic has nothing to do with religion, but with linguistics and ethnicity. Indeed the use of the name of Shem is symbolic here.
Akkadians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, Kurds, etc etc

To say that the Israeli state does not contribute to some if not all of the issues in the middle east is foolish. Israel is a irritant on the whole of the Arab and Muslim world everyday.

Well they could bury the hatchet and get on with their lives. If the really militant factions over there just stopped acting like barbarians...

Just making sure.?.

Well now you know. And I don't speak Arabic, so must rely on english translations, I might add.



Then why the violence in Haifa? Tel Aviv? Jerusalem? Other towns and villages that are not settlements?.

That would be, from the Palestinian viewpoint, hitting the enemy on another front.


'm not in Israel so was not there when these are put up. Nor have I talked to the people who actually sat it up to know one way or the other.

The claim to ignorance is rather redundant in the age of IT. They are civillian colonies outside Israels borders. You may research the subject with a view to refuting that description.


If they are there defending Israeli citizens then yes, a claim can be stated that they are acting in self-defense. They are defending their citizens from attacks. That is by nature, self-defense.

Defending their citizens from attack while those civillians are engaged in offensive, aggressive activity, however, is not "self defense". Again, we aren't talking about attacks within Israel, but against settlements in the occupied territories which are outside Israels borders.

Defending their citizens from attack while those civillians are engaged in offensive, aggressive activity, however, is not "self defense". Again, we aren't talking about attacks within Israel, but against settlements in the occupied territories which are outside Israels borders.

You and I can go back and forth on this issue Nodinia. However, instead of wasting pages and post numbers on an endless debate such as self-defense, why don't we both agree to disagree?

You and I can go back and forth on this issue Nodinia. However, instead of wasting pages and post numbers on an endless debate such as self-defense, why don't we both agree to disagree?

Because were your definition of self defence to hold, then any burglar challenged on entry into my home would entitled to fight me off, and I would be "in the wrong" for attacking him.

We can disagree about the methodology of my defence of my home, but at the end of the day, its clearly not the Burglar who has right of way.

And Israelis are still extending their illegal colonies in the West Bank. Since the Gaza pullout they have further increased the number of settlers by over 20·000.

And Israelis are still extending their illegal colonies in the West Bank. Since the Gaza pullout they have further increased the number of settlers by over 20·000.

well, what do you know, israel got an incompetent government.... awwww

Israel/Zionism/apartheid has caused problems for the entire world.

Many Americans can see nothing beyond 9/11. They see no reason for terror attacks other than jealousy for their democratic way, the public has been hoodwinked by the media and Israeli/Zionist propaganda.

Do they not realize that Osama, Iran's Nuclear research, fundamental Islamic movement, terror attacks are all related to the creation of Israel and it's racist apartheid policies.

Does it never occur to the American public that maybe the it's their media that has it wrong and the International media has it right? Does it ever occur to them that it's their choice of Presidents and foreign policy that perpetuates the problem? American's pride themselves on their justice system but are seemingly ignorant about the injustice waged against the Palestinians with US approval and support.

When the US public actually start thinking for themselves and not listing to the media they may come to understand why the world hates their country.

Do they not realize that Osama, Iran's Nuclear research, fundamental Islamic movement, terror attacks are all related to the creation of Israel and it's racist apartheid policies.

I would love for you to back this all up with evidence.

*snip*

Done with your rant?

Israel/Zionism/apartheid has caused problems for the entire world.

Many Americans can see nothing beyond 9/11. They see no reason for terror attacks other than jealousy for their democratic way, the public has been hoodwinked by the media and Israeli/Zionist propaganda.

Do they not realize that Osama, Iran's Nuclear research, fundamental Islamic movement, terror attacks are all related to the creation of Israel and it's racist apartheid policies.

Does it never occur to the American public that maybe the it's their media that has it wrong and the International media has it right? Does it ever occur to them that it's their choice of Presidents and foreign policy that perpetuates the problem? American's pride themselves on their justice system but are seemingly ignorant about the injustice waged against the Palestinians with US approval and support.

When the US public actually start thinking for themselves and not listing to the media they may come to understand why the world hates their country.

Yay, israel is the cause of all the world's evil... woohoo....
Wait... I heard that rhetorics previously....

Yay, israel is the cause of all the world's evil... woohoo....
Wait... I heard that rhetorics previously....

He does says that and then launches into an Anti-US rant.

Israel/Zionism/apartheid has caused problems for the entire world.

Many Americans can see nothing beyond 9/11. They see no reason for terror attacks other than jealousy for their democratic way, the public has been hoodwinked by the media and Israeli/Zionist propaganda.

Do they not realize that Osama, Iran's Nuclear research, fundamental Islamic movement, terror attacks are all related to the creation of Israel and it's racist apartheid policies.

Does it never occur to the American public that maybe the it's their media that has it wrong and the International media has it right? Does it ever occur to them that it's their choice of Presidents and foreign policy that perpetuates the problem? American's pride themselves on their justice system but are seemingly ignorant about the injustice waged against the Palestinians with US approval and support.

When the US public actually start thinking for themselves and not listing to the media they may come to understand why the world hates their country.

Actually, terrorism has everything to do with the policies of the Great Powers after the First World War, and the perceived insult felt by the Arab peoples in the middle east, following the breaking of the Ottoman Empire, as well as Attaturks removal of the position of the Caliph.

Well, there were hostilities since the dawn of civilization, the only difference now that these day and age, it's total war. So nothing changed 59 years ago

Israel/Zionism/apartheid has caused problems for the entire world.

Many Americans can see nothing beyond 9/11. They see no reason for terror attacks other than jealousy for their democratic way, the public has been hoodwinked by the media and Israeli/Zionist propaganda.

Do they not realize that Osama, Iran's Nuclear research, fundamental Islamic movement, terror attacks are all related to the creation of Israel and it's racist apartheid policies.

Does it never occur to the American public that maybe the it's their media that has it wrong and the International media has it right? Does it ever occur to them that it's their choice of Presidents and foreign policy that perpetuates the problem? American's pride themselves on their justice system but are seemingly ignorant about the injustice waged against the Palestinians with US approval and support.

When the US public actually start thinking for themselves and not listing to the media they may come to understand why the world hates their country.

I would eat my hat if you could back that up.And a shoe.

I would eat my hat if you could back that up.And a shoe.

I'll eat my hat, my shoe and my pants if you can prove me wrong!

Osama himself has said his 9/11 attack was a result of US Israel action in the middle east.

For every action there is an equal opposite reaction.
These people just didn't wake one day and decide to fly a plane into a building, their are reasons why they hate some countries more than others. Note they never flew a plane into some building in Finland, they attacked who they see as the aggressor.

I'll eat my hat, my shoe and my pants if you can prove me wrong!

Osama himself has said his 9/11 attack was a result of US Israel action in the middle east.

For every action there is an equal opposite reaction.
These people just didn't wake one day and decide to fly a plane into a building, their are reasons why they hate some countries more than others. Note they never flew a plane into some building in Finland, they attacked who they see as the aggressor.

Actually, the burdon of proof is on you.

I'll eat my hat, my shoe and my pants if you can prove me wrong!

Osama himself has said his 9/11 attack was a result of US Israel action in the middle east.

For every action there is an equal opposite reaction.
These people just didn't wake one day and decide to fly a plane into a building, their are reasons why they hate some countries more than others. Note they never flew a plane into some building in Finland, they attacked who they see as the aggressor.

Actually, Mr. bin Laden said that the attacks were a response to western actions in the Middle East, with an explicit allusion to "80 years of humiliation". Not US actions in specific.

Furthermore, his goals are not to bring down the Israeli government, but to bring down the autocratic regimes in the region, which he believes are dividing the "Umma" from becoming unified and whole, the way it was before the First World War.

And what is just about killing innocent men, women, and children by blowing them up using suicide bombers inside shopping malls, restaurants, nightclubs, etc?

I wasn't talking about suicide bombings. I was talking about army to army, man to man fighting. Those fight for a just cause in the name of God will certainly be rewarded.

So basicly the Arab world is so fragile that it cannot stand anyone who isnt Arab? Doesnt that mean then that you are saying that Arabs are hideously intollerant.

So your saying you would comfortable with a state in the heart of the US becoming 90% Arab and Muslim?

I wasn't talking about suicide bombings. I was talking about army to army, man to man fighting. Those fight for a just cause in the name of God will certainly be rewarded.

If this was an Army to Army fight, that is one thing. However, we do not have an army to army fight in the region.

it's called a valid warfare doctorine, minimum casualties to allies, maximum demage to the enemy.... and don't blame me, it's what every modern nation used....
Nothing invalid about asymetrical warfare. It's just one different doctrine.

Nothing invalid about asymetrical warfare. It's just one different doctrine.

It is until you start to target civilians directly.

i couldnt find the post that said the persian emprie kicked them out, it hough the romans expelled them before that,

however on the issue, i do think Israel excasterbates the problem, however its not the sole cause. Both sides have commited their fair share of atrocities, its fairly hard aswell when tentative ceasefire agreements are reached and Israel uses them to 'assasinate terrorists' fair enough that they are doing this ebcause they are a threat to their national security but the timing could be a little better, and bombing them using a plane will always lead to collateral, and thus retaliatory attacks happen and the cycle starts again.

However as ruthless or efficiant as some peopel call it the IDF are, i donth think one can land all the problems in the conflict on them. They are put under pressure by the illegal settlements, and they ahve a duty to protect their citizens, i think the main problems are the illegal settlements though, and its unrealistic to say that they should just leave them to survive on their own, because thats just not going to happen, any Israeli priminister who said that would definatly not be re-elected

It is until you start to target civilians directly.
Because Israel never goes in for collective punishment which leads to large amounts of civilian deaths or anything, right?

Because Israel never goes in for collective punishment which leads to large amounts of civilian deaths or anything, right?

Care to point out where I said it didn't?

Care to point out where I said it didn't?

Wait a second. Your claiming that Israel does not target civilians, yet practices collective civilian punishment? Double-think much?

Wait a second. Your claiming that Israel does not target civilians, yet practices collective civilian punishment? Double-think much?

I was talking more about civilian deaths than collective punishment.

well, what do you know, israel got an incompetent government.... awwwwExcept when it comes to demolish Palestinian houses... awwww

Wow. I didn't know that major economic, internal political, and social problems like unemployment and dictatorship were caused by a lack of self-esteem....

Now, I'll take about 30 minutes to stop laughing.


It's no more ridiculous than recent neocon scare tactics about the US going to hell because of 'evil' Mexicans and 'evil' gay marriage...

I was talking more about civilian deaths than collective punishment.That's practically the same.

Except when it comes to demolish Palestinian houses... awwww

So you are saying they are not incompetent when it comes to that? :confused:

If this was an Army to Army fight, that is one thing. However, we do not have an army to army fight in the region.No, it's people vs people fight.

So you are saying they are not incompetent when it comes to that? :confused:Don't you know your own language?

The Muslim Scum would wage genocide just because some priest stubbed his toe.
If Israel didn't exist, they still would have attacked the World Trade Center.
They don't have to worry about FEELING inferior as they are inferior.
90% of the problems in the Middle East started there.
From a murderous sociopathic religious belief system all the way down to the average mental inferiors who beileve blowing themselves up will produce any result other than the rest of the universe laughing at their stupidity.

No, it's people vs people fight.

Actually, it is a militia vs Army fight. A fight where the militia is targeting innocent men, women, and children by blowing them up with suicide bombers.

I am not saying that Israel is not guilty of things, they are, however, who is guilty of a bigger crime?

Care to point out where I said it didn't?
Yeah. You said that Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians. It does.

Actually, it is a militia vs Army fight. A fight where the militia is targeting innocent men, women, and children by blowing them up with suicide bombers.

I am not saying that Israel is not guilty of things, they are, however, who is guilty of a bigger crime?
No, it's the Jewish 'people' against the Arab people. It has been that ever since the first Zionist set foot into Palestine. That's what they have come for in the first place.

Don't you know your own language?

This is what UA said: well, what do you know, israel got an incompetent government.... awwww

Notice how it is written. Then this is what you said: Except when it comes to demolish Palestinian houses... awwww

Therefor, by process of reasoning, you are basicly saying that the Israeli government is not incompetent when it comes to demolishing Palestinian houses.

Do you understand English?

Yeah. You said that Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians. It does.

Sometimes yes but most of the time they don't.

This is what UA said: well, what do you know, israel got an incompetent government.... awwww

Notice how it is written. Then this is what you said: Except when it comes to demolish Palestinian houses... awwww

Therefor, by process of reasoning, you are basicly saying that the Israeli government is not incompetent when it comes to demolishing Palestinian houses.

Do you understand English?And? Israel demonstrates always much efficiency when it comes to removing Palestinians from their homes, and then removing the homes (although I've heard they sometimes don't bother to first remove the inhabitants).

btw therefore

Cthulhu-Mythos;12065211']The Muslim Scum would wage genocide just because some priest stubbed his toe.
If Israel didn't exist, they still would have attacked the World Trade Center.
They don't have to worry about FEELING inferior as they are inferior.
90% of the problems in the Middle East started there.
From a murderous sociopathic religious belief system all the way down to the average mental inferiors who beileve blowing themselves up will produce any result other than the rest of the universe laughing at their stupidity.
Well you're a shining example of a rational and well-informed human being, aren't you?

No, it's the Jewish 'people' against the Arab people. It has been that ever since the first Zionist set foot into Palestine. That's what they have come for in the first place.

Do we have to go through this with you again about who was there first?

Sometimes yes but most of the time they don't.
The same goes for Palestinian attacks.

And? Israel demonstrates always much efficiency when it comes to removing Palestinians from their homes, and then removing the homes.

And the Arabs didn't force Jews from their homes? The Arabs did not force Palestinians from their homes?

The same goes for Palestinian attacks.

Most of the attacks are against civilians. Only some of the attacks are against the IDF and the government.

Do we have to go through this with you again about who was there first?The fact that you're an anti-Semite doesn't make me wrong. And it's indeed about who was already living there when the request for a Jewish state was first raised.

The fact that you're an anti-Semite doesn't make me wrong.

HAHAHAHAHA! I support a 2 state solution. The only anti-semite in our debate is you for wanting the Jews gone from their ancestrial homeland.

Most of the attacks are against civilians. Only some of the attacks are against the IDF and the government.
*sighs*

Both sides have attacked their fair share of civilians, and I dare say that the IDF has killed plenty more than the Palestinians.

*sighs*

Both sides have attacked their fair share of civilians, and I dare say that the IDF has killed plenty more than the Palestinians.

I can agree to a point with you on this one.

And the Arabs didn't force Jews from their homes? The Arabs did not force Palestinians from their homes?

Other Arab nations don't even allow Palestinian refugees in to their nations.

HAHAHAHAHA! I support a 2 state solution. The only anti-semite in our debate is you for wanting the Jews gone from their ancestrial homeland.
The Palestinians are a semitic group. You want them gone from theirs, so now you're the anti-Semite.

There, I can stoop down to your level, too!

Both sides have attacked their fair share of civilians, and I dare say that the IDF has killed plenty more than the Palestinians.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. The Palestinian terrorists (not the Palestinian resistance) have killed a lot of people in attacks on Israeli soil.

I can agree to a point with you on this one.
It's not something you can agree to a point on. It's just true. That's the way it is.

The Palestinians are a semitic group. You want them gone from theirs, so now you're the anti-Semite.

Actually, Palestinians are not a semitic group. They speak a semitic language as does Israel so therefor, by wanting Israel gone from its ancestrial homeland, makes UAan anti-semite. Me on the other hand do not want the Palestinians gone from the area. Therefor, I am not an anti-semite. Thanks for playing though.

There, I can stoop down to your level, too!

Funny, I know I'm not anti-semitic so whose level are you really on?

HAHAHAHAHA! I support a 2 state solution. The only anti-semite in our debate is you for wanting the Jews gone from their ancestrial homeland.As soon as you have your home elsewhere, you lose your (alleged) right to your (alleged) ancestral homeland.

And do you understand English?

Other Arab nations don't even allow Palestinian refugees in to their nations.

Jordan did until they tried to assassinate the King then they got expelled.

Actually, Palestinians are not a semitic group. They speak a semitic language as does Israel so therefor, by wanting Israel gone from its ancestrial homeland, makes UAan anti-semite. Me on the other hand do not want the Palestinians gone from the area. Therefor, I am not an anti-semite. Thanks for playing though.Go back to school. All Arabs are Semitic. Therefore Palestinian Arabs are Semitic no less.

Well you're a shining example of a rational and well-informed human being, aren't you?
Yes, I am.
Thank you for noticing...

As soon as you have your home elsewhere, you lose your (alleged) right to your (alleged) ancestral homeland.

And do you understand English?

I understand English just fine. It is you who does not grasp English nor logic for that matter.

Go back to school. All Arabs are Semitic. Therefore Palestinian Arabs are Semitic no less.

They speak a Semitic LANGUAGE! Geez. Did you fail linguistics?

I don't know if that's necessarily true. The Palestinian terrorists (not the Palestinian resistance) have killed a lot of people in attacks on Israeli soil.
Hard to back this up with facts, seeing as the statistics of it all are all over the place and, more importantly, not visible on Wikipedia, which is where I usually try to get stats.

But I'm willing to wager that the Israelis have, whether directly through 'coventional' attacks, or indirectly through povery and starvation, killed more civilians than the Palestinians.

I understand English just fine. It is you who does not grasp English nor logic for that matter.Well, at least you can't spell.

Jordan did until they tried to assassinate the King then they got expelled.

Exactly. Many of the Arab groups that "support" Palestinian independence or statehood are brutally and cruelly bigoted towards the Palestinian people; they couldn't give a shit how many of them die or how much they suffer as long as their radical ideologies are forced in to the region and they can control those people as pawns against their real enemy, Israel.

There will be no peace between Israel and Palestine until the tyrants of the region are overthrown.

Well, at least you can't spell.

At least I have logic and history and language families on my side.

Exactly. Many of the Arab groups that "support" Palestinian independence or statehood are brutally and cruelly bigoted towards the Palestinian people; they couldn't give a shit how many of them die or how much they suffer as long as their radical ideologies are forced in to the region and they can control those people as pawns against their real enemy, Israel.

There will be no peace between Israel and Palestine until the tyrants of the region are overthrown.

Agreed 100%.

Hard to back this up with facts, seeing as the statistics of it all are all over the place and, more importantly, not visible on Wikipedia, which is where I usually try to get stats.

But I'm willing to wager that the Israelis have, whether directly through 'coventional' attacks, or indirectly through povery and starvation, killed more civilians than the Palestinians.

I know, I figured that the Israelis would have killed more civilians but I wasn't sure how the numbers stacked up. Of course, I'm not saying that having a lower death count that the Palestinians would somehow absolve the Israelis of crimes they commit, but I'm just interested in the cost of this war.

They speak a Semitic LANGUAGE! Geez. Did you fail linguistics?Arabs of course speak Arabic. Geez is spoken by Eritreans, Ethiopians, and Somali.

Arabs of course speak Arabic. Geez is spoken by Eritreans, Ethiopians, and Somali.

:rolleyes:

You are confusing Ge'ez, which is what you are referring to, and the word geez:

geez (jz) KEY

INTERJECTION:

Used to express mild surprise, delight, dissatisfaction, or annoyance.

They speak a Semitic LANGUAGE! Geez. Did you fail linguistics?
No, they're a Semitic people, I think you'll find.

No, the interviewee said that the Middle East would be better off without Israel.

This is what annoys me most about some people on this topic, who continue to say that you can't be anti-Israeli without being an anti-Semite.

I have Jewish friends. I do not like the state of Israel. The two can be exclusive, you know.
One thing that you forget.

Over there they are both considered the same.

In the middle east Jewish people are all considered Zionist.

...according to the IDF.



How is building civillian colonies outside its 1967 borders "self defense"?
They won those lands in defeating the Arab armies in war. If you remember after every past war nations have lost land, We defeated Spain... We gained some land, Germany was defeated in WW1, they lost land, after WW2, they lost more land. It's spoils of war, if they didn't want to lose that land they shouldn't have invaded.

Though I think it would be a good idea to give them the land.

But if they continue afterwords. Then Israel could do whatever for all I care, because then it's not about 'freedom' it's about killing all the Israelis.

Do you know at all what those borders were? http://www.palestine-pmc.com/maps/2-9-05.pdf

Hey they consider Golan highs a part of Syria also. Hezbollah still doesn't have a leg to stand on.

:rolleyes:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge'ez_language

One thing that you forget.

Over there they are both considered the same.

In the middle east Jewish people are all considered Zionist.
Actually not true!

If you were uneducated and listened to nothing but propaganda, then maybe you'd think that. If you are educated, as the al-Jazeera staff are, then that's not so likely.

Agreed 100%.

This entire Israeli-Palestinian war is a chess game between the Arab states and Israel. They were unable to defeat them in open war, so they're using the Palestinians to try and do what they couldn't. Israel is being used by the US to fight the Arab states, something that we can't do directly, and the Palestinians are caught in the crossfire.

A stable, prosperous Palestine will be one of the greatest weapons against radical Islam that we could ever have...it would be the wedge that would begin the ultimate collapse of the oil tyrants and enable the Middle East to move out of the poverty and exploitation it is forced in to now. It'll require unprecedented aid and work on Israel's side as well as the commitment of the Palestinians.

No, they're a Semitic people, I think you'll find.

Semite is a language family composed of: Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Ge'ez, Hebrew, Maltese, Tigrinya and other languages. People who do speak these languages are referred to as semitic people but in reality, refers to the language that they actually speak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge'ez_language

geez (jz) KEY

INTERJECTION:

Used to express mild surprise, delight, dissatisfaction, or annoyance.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/geez;_ylt=AlO5yyUpvTTizgQtXLIIHxesgMMF

Therefore, geez was used properly. I was not referring to Ge'ez which is a semitic language. And you tell me I do not know English.

Semite is a language family composed of: Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Ge'ez, Hebrew, Maltese, Tigrinya and other languages. People who do speak these languages are referred to as semitic people but in reality, refers to the language that they actually speak.bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla :rolleyes:

Semite is a language family composed of: Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Ge'ez, Hebrew, Maltese, Tigrinya and other languages. People who do speak these languages are referred to as semitic people but in reality, refers to the language that they actually speak.
Don't try to use overformal, dictionary style phrases to try and cover up that you're wrong, please.

You are just wrong on the matter. Accept it.

Don't try to use overformal, dictionary style phrases to try and cover up that you're wrong, please.

You are just wrong on the matter. Accept it.

Wrong that it started out as language then migrated to culture and then ethnicity? Sorry but I am not wrong in that regard. If we want to get into semantics here, we can. However, Both the Jews and the Arabs are semites no matter if we use language or culture or ethnicity.

So tell me where I am wrong.

Wrong that it started out as language then migrated to culture and then ethnicity? Sorry but I am not wrong in that regard. If we want to get into semantics here, we can. However, Both the Jews and the Arabs are semites no matter if we use language or culture or ethnicity.
So tell me where I am wrong.You just said Arabs were not Semitic. Now what?

Arabs are Semitic in every way one can be Semitic.

You just said Arabs were not Semitic. Now what?

*sighs*

no matter if we use language or culture or ethnicity.

You can't read can you?