NationStates Jolt Archive

So, I don't see any harm in issueing the foreigners a similiar type ID card.

Foreigners are already obliged to carry identification when not in their home country. It's called a passport. And usually a visa if required.

Having extra ID cards would be like putting a 5th wheel on a car. You could do it, but it'd cost extra, and what would be the point?

Yor nation is on a slippery slope but you and others like you can save it. With your ideas, your opnions the USA can still be saved. If the Government did stuff that was oppresive would you stand by and let it happen or would you rise up against it? If you say you would rise up then you have found your nations defence. That defence is you.

"People shouldn't fear their governments, governments should fear their people."

The fact that you think I got owned just further proves to me that I have indeed won the argument.

Um no one can totaly win an argument on a forum such as this. You have points and JuNii has points. You however, did get a nice serve and have done little to prove he was not correct. So I do not see how you can say that you have indeed won an argument when no one is totally winning this argument.

You obviously haven't heard of Jane Fonda.

:rolleyes:

So what would change?

Nothing. LOL

So has this turned into an actual discussion now or are we still fighting with MTAE?

So has this turned into an actual discussion now or are we still fighting with MTAE?I refuse to engage him anymore, so to the extent I've been involved, I think it's an actual discussion.

I refuse to engage him anymore, so to the extent I've been involved, I think it's an actual discussion.

I had an opinion in the beginning and I started to read through to page 8 and then I skipped around and all I saw was talk revolving around MTAE and then I forgot what I was going to write... and oh... it was a disaster.

So has this turned into an actual discussion now or are we still fighting with MTAE?

He got a two-week forumban on an unrelated matter, so we're not fighting with him anymore.

He got a two-week forumban on an unrelated matter, so we're not fighting with him anymore.Wow. Two whole weeks of semi-sanity on the forum. What will we do?

He got a two-week forumban on an unrelated matter, so we're not fighting with him anymore.

Where was that?
EDIT: Nevermind, I found it.

Wow. Two whole weeks of semi-sanity on the forum. What will we do?

Make up for it?

Um no one can totaly win an argument on a forum such as this. You have points and JuNii has points. You however, did get a nice serve and have done little to prove he was not correct. So I do not see how you can say that you have indeed won an argument when no one is totally winning this argument.
Debating in an online forum is like being in the special Olympics; everyone wins.

Wow. Two whole weeks of semi-sanity on the forum. What will we do?
Indulge the insanity that is the weasel and her numerous ditches and smouldering craters? ;)

Wow. Two whole weeks of semi-sanity on the forum. What will we do?
There's potential on the Black President thread, but CE isn't as fun.

so you are in favor of a Thought Police then? and where is the line drawn? remember, there is a HUGE difference between saying "all [insert group] must be [insert action]" and actually doing it.Did I say that? At all? In fact, I'm pretty sure I argued against that in the very next paragraph. Don't twist my words.

remember, you're backing a man who was the one who suggested that all muslims be tattoed, it's only because he said "I was kidding" at the end of his HOUR LONG program that you "exscuse" him. Did he give his callers a chance to say "yeah, me too?" hell no. so people label him a "hero" while others that he tricked are labeled bigots?
He "tricked" them? Did he, at any point, change his story (ironically, as you have just done to me?) No. He stated "all muslims should be tattooed visably". The callers, on their own free will and choice, called in in support. He never "tricked" them. They chose to say what they did. They have every right to those opinions and to say them out loud. And they exercised that right. They do not, however, have the right to not have someone who disagrees call them idiots. He didn't twist their words. He didn't say one thing, and then lead callers into a trap by getting them to say something they didn't want to. They called in and chose to support him.
And 40% of America agrees with them.



HE suggested it, HE planted that thought in his listeners mind, HE was the instigator. now if he asked, "so what do you think should be done on this war on terror" and those idiots suggested the tattooing, then I will not be arguing here. but KLEIN suggested the action and only at the END of his program did he get on his moral high horse and berate everyone who agreed with HIS SUGGESTION.But they still CHOSE to agree, and CHOSE to voice that opinion. He didn't force them. He didn't trick them. Did they come up with the idea to tattoo them? Yes. Was he the first to say it? Yes. Did they decide to agree with it and say it was a good idea? Yes. There is no trickery there.

that's fine. I've nothing against Callilng them bigots... good

Now my question is, why is no one also calling Klein a bigot on his part of fanning the flames then exscusing what he did by saying "Nah, I'm joking, you guys should be ashamed of yourself." if callers called back saying "we were joshing along with you" would you believe them as people believed Klein? if all those callers who agreed to Kleins suggestion is a Bigot, then Klein has to also be labeled a bigot for suggesting it and seriously carrying on with that idea for the majority of his show.If he already had the plan, as it is clear that he did, then he isn't a bigot. I could stand up and say "I'm a racist". That doesn't make it true.

And that is what I call Klein... A Bigot, infact he's worse because he used his power on the radio to do nothing more than to grab fame and to put himself on his moral high horse.Or to expose something and make people think. Maybe, just maybe, someone heard the show and was on the fence about the issue, and upon hearing that hey, that really is alot like nazi germany, reconsidered.

I gave this some thought before posting. Americans are legally obligated to carry some form of ID (drivers license, state ID, etc...) So, I don't see any harm in issueing the foreigners a similiar type ID card.

I'm against the tattooing, armbands, concentration camps, etc... but think an ID card would be sufficient and very reasonable. With having that magnetic strip would give the local law enforcement agencies access to the federal information needed.To my knowledge, people in the US are not required to carry any form of ID if they choose not to. The only time the ID is required is for the specific purpose of the ID (drivers license, passport, to purchase age-restricted items).

If you choose not to partake in those activities, you don't need an ID.

Where was that?
EDIT: Nevermind, I found it.

Where was it?

*cough*doublestandard*cough*
So... all right. It's fine for bigots to be bigoted, if they don't act upon their opinions, since it's 'just their opinion' but it's not all right for people to say that the bigots are assholes, even if it's 'just their opinion'. and where did I say that people should not be called bigots? I said that Klein is also a bigot because he suggested the idea of tattooing people. He made the rallying cry, waved the flag, stood up on his podium with the Nazi flag behind him and made his speech about tattoos and marking Muslims.

However, just because at the end of his show he says "just kidding" people like Nazz say…
Klein did a public service by putting the bigotry of the public out there for everyone to see it

He is morally superior to all those fucks who suggested that we ought to deport/kill/incarcerate people for their religious beliefs did Nazz remember that Klein was the one who suggested we tattoo and mark muslims in the first place?

I guess that makes Hitler another great public servant in Nazz’s mind since he to exposed the bigotry of his country with his speeches that had rousing applaudes! Guess also that makes Phelps a national hero to Nazz as he is constantly gathering and exposing other bigots in his march to every Military funeral across America…

Nazz chose to ignore all the signs that bigotry is alive and well all over the world (USA included.) Everyone is a bigot in some way, some fashion. The point is, as long as those opinions stay opinions, then there is nothing wrong with having them.

What makes a Nation better is that while it’s true we’re all bigots, we put those feelings aside when we need to deal/work/confront with those in a public setting that we hold such feelings for.

Gotcha. This person is not 'putting that idea into their heads'. It's blatantly obvious to all sensible people it's a ridiculous idea. The people who agree with him must have some deep-rooted bigotry within them already. Just out of curiosity, what do you think of Borat?oh, considering he's gotten as much calls saying that he was an asshole for suggesting that means IT WAS NOT BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that he was not serious. did you even READ the article?

And considering that Borat also used lies and deceit to get what he wanted, I put him in the same boat as Michael Moore. Scratch that… at least Borat isn’t lauding his movie as a Documentary. So he’s slightly above Michael Moore.

Oh yes, and...

:confused:
If they don't act on their bigotry, obviously it can't lead to illegal actions...yep, which is why there is this thing called Freedom of Speech and Expression. people can talk about "Them" as long as they only talk. People can hold opinions and views different than others and shouldn’t be forced to conform to some standard. Neither do I hold their viewpoints as some sort of caste thing nor do I use their viewpoints as a weapon to make me or anyone feel superior.

I was also making it clear that there is a difference between saying “tattoo the [group]” and actually forming a gang, going out, and tattooing people against their will.

Look back through this thread and find the place where I've suggested that there should be any restriction on allowing people to hold these points of view, where I've called for legal repercussions against thoughts and ideas. Can't find them? Gee, I wonder why. Because I've never fucking suggested them.
please show me where I said you said Legal Reprecussions. Thought Police isn’t an automatic assumption of a Legal Force. Thought Police also means those that say how other people should think.

He is morally superior to all those fucks who suggested that we ought to deport/kill/incarcerate people for their religious beliefs

I'm morally superior to those fucks too

you can disagree with their opinion nazz, but to claim superiority because of their THOUGHTS and opinions? Actions are different, but we are talking Thoughts and Opinions here.

But you bet your ass I think that as a society we ought to fight ignorance with education, that’s fine for ignorance, but you fight Intolerance with public humiliation.
and when people make suggestions like the ones Klein did as part of his hoax …so you admit that Klein made the suggestion… yet because he used the last minutes of his show to say “April Fools” he’s the hero in your eyes? The fact that he was willing to give his suggestion air time should be just as wrong as those that supported him. Otherwise, you should be saying that those “fuckers” who agreed with him are true Americans for having the courage to voice their opinions and viewpoints.
and that some callers agreed with, then as members of a tolerant and multicultural society we should certainly stand up and say that we will not sacrifice a small segment of our population in order to appease the frenzy held by the ignorant. I’ll continue that thought Nazz to illustrate my point… “…frenzy held by the ignorant that was encouraged and fueled by a public figure, who holds the public’s trust. who was only looking for a stepping stool to place himself on his own moral high horse.

Now quit trying to turn my words into something they're not, Junii. I'm tired of your shit. twisting your words… funny, no twisting here.

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.

More open nazz? Funny, you seem rather adamant that those who’s opinions (not actions, but opinions) that you don’t agree with are somehow beneath you.

No twisting here.
He is morally superior to all those fucks who suggested that we ought to deport/kill/incarcerate people for their religious beliefsfunny, you just admitted earlier that Klein suggested the baseline idea of tattoos and bands…

I'm morally superior to those fucks too yep, no bigotry or hatred from nazz, he’s open and accepting of ideas and opinions that are different from his.

and this sounds like a rationality to justify your own bigotry.
…not all bigotry is created equal…

now, for a brief lesson in English
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) –
big•ot /ˈbɪgət/
–noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

American Heritage Dictionary –
big•ot (bĭg'ət)
n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) -
big•ot•ry /ˈbɪgətri/

–noun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

American Heritage Dictionary
big•ot•ry (bĭg'ə-trē)

n. The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

Hatred is hatred, bigotry is bigotry, there are no degrees only degrees of controlling it. It don’t matter who it’s directed at, it don’t matter which ideals, beliefs or creeds one is intolerant against, it’s still bigotry. So yes, being intolerant for those who are intolerant is still bigotry.

You showed a lot of hatred (in fact a lot of people did) towards those that have differing opinions, you are intolerant of their opinions and their beliefs. Which makes you and them bigots. Kettle, meet pot.

If you were truly accepting, then you would not be ranting like this and you would be seeing that what Klein did was wrong, not illegal, but still wrong.

The fact that you believe that shame is the only way to cause it to retreat
And yes, I do believe that exposing hatred causes it to retreat--I know from experience that people hold hateful opinions almost unconsciously, and only retreat from them once they've been shamed.
only strengthens my point that you were viewing the world through rose colored glasses. Everyone holds different opinions and everyone is entitled to speak them. However, what Klein did was he got on his Nazi Podium, gave a Nazi-like speech and then lambasted everyone who agreed with him. Basically, he encouraged his viewers to speak up with a controversial idea he gave his listeners for no other reason than to get on his high horse and feel Morally superior at others expense.

Who else does that? Make themselves superior at the expense of others by using shame… Bullies, Con-artists, Fundies, Bigots…

I’ve stated that Bigotry is everywhere and so far no one as countered that point. Why? Because it’s true.

You’ve asked me where I stand? I’ll tell you. I confront intolerance with patience and understanding. I endeavor to understand another person’s hatred and gently turn it away from “blanket” statements and generalizations. I respect their opinions and I show them that I hold their opinions with respect. I find more often than not, that those people will then respect my opinions and give it weight and honest thought.

When I confront a person who is intolerant to any idea, creed, belief… etc, I let them say what they want to say, I let them rant on and on. And you know what? I don’t let them feel morally inferior, I don’t shame them, I talk to them. Face to face. And 7 times out of 10 times, I convince then first that not all of “those people” are as bad as they make out. Then I expand that to show them that “Those People” are more of a minority when it comes to what really irks those intolerant people.

They leave actually thinking positive thoughts about those that they once lumped into a group. Others are thinking about it and actually narrowing their scope down. Say, from all Muslims to Islamic Extremists.

And do you know what I’ve found while talking to those individuals? All their “information” comes from the Media. Newspapers, Televisions, RADIOS and the INTERNET.

So I ask you Nazz, about your morally superior Klein… what happened to all those he convinced with his little rant about tattoos and bands and whatnot, those who did not have any such idea before but liked the sound of it because of their perception of Islamic militants and terrorists, then turned off their radio before he did his Moral rant? Who do you blame for putting those ideas into their heads and convincing them that tattoos are the way to go and that there is a public figure who supports that idea. Them? Or Klein for putting the idea into their heads? Your hero isn’t morally superior, you are not morally superior. No one is. You just hold differing opinions than everyone else.

Oh, and I’ve found that by trying to shame them (what Klein did, and your preferred method) will only strengthen their intolerance and cause it to spread. They don’t retreat to re-think their viewpoints, they rationalize it and strengthen their resolve, only now you would be included as a “brainwashed” or “Sympathetic” followers and everything you say from now on will be tainted as such (like Mtae and Deep Kimchi are labeled as Bigots and Trolls, like Eut and others on these boards.) Often times, others who witness the shaming, would pity the person shamed and guess what. Seriously think on that shamed persons viewpoints. Congrats, you just spread one bigot’s viewpoint to others.

Oh I can hear the replies now. “It’s ok to be intolerant against those who are intolerant.” That’s an “Eye for an Eye” mentality and you know it. Don’t believe me? Replace Intolerant with any crime and you will find yourself supporting the Death Penalty. “it’s ok to murder a murderer” and cruel and unusual punishments. “Rape the Rapist!”

Am I intolerant of intolerance? Once I was. But not anymore, I accept that there are those around me who do hold such sentiment and such opinions and it is their right and privilege to do so. Acting on those viewpoints and opinions in a detrimental manner (illegal) is wrong.

Am I a Bigot? Yes, I hate people who use shame and public humiliation to put down others only to make them feel superior, I hate people who pull stunts like the one Klein did, and I hate people who claim superiority over others because of their thoughts, opinions and feelings.

Ever feel ashamed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061201/lf_nm/usa_muslims_fear_dc_1) of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing, and for making Britney Spears a multi-millionaire.



Except that Klein didn't actually believe what he'd suggested. Here's how he finished the show:

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.


Better yet, in the 1860-1914 period, it was quite common for those backing an expansionist more assertive Germany and increased military spending to speak of the decadence of Europe and france in particular, as well as a pre-occupatiuon with the higher birth rate of these less folk. And yes, they wanted laws against the Jews etc.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.

We are beyond saving. Leave while you can. I'm heading for Paraguay.

Did I say that? At all? In fact, I'm pretty sure I argued against that in the very next paragraph. Don't twist my words. not twisting, but asking. Thought Police is also holding people's thoughts against them. not their actions, but their thoughts. It doesn't mean anything Legal.

He "tricked" them? Did he, at any point, change his story (ironically, as you have just done to me?) No. He stated "all muslims should be tattooed visably". The callers, on their own free will and choice, called in in support. He never "tricked" them. They chose to say what they did. They have every right to those opinions and to say them out loud. And they exercised that right. They do not, however, have the right to not have someone who disagrees call them idiots. He didn't twist their words. He didn't say one thing, and then lead callers into a trap by getting them to say something they didn't want to. They called in and chose to support him.
And 40% of America agrees with them.you must've missed the ending of his program where he said.

At the end of the one-hour show, rich with arguments on why visual identification of "the threat in our midst" would alleviate the public's fears, Klein revealed that he had staged a hoax. It drew out reactions that are not uncommon in post-9/11 America.

"I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said," he told his audience on the AM station 630 WMAL (http://www.wmal.com/), which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland

For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people's bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver's license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It's beyond disgusting.

"Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen ... We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous."

so yes, he did "Change his story" he purposely drew people out with a single idea. When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band, the phone lines jammed instantly.
note, HE suggested the marking. now if he asked "what do you think we should do about terrorism" or "how to make our country safer" and some caller suggested the tattoos and bands then I would not be calling him a bigot and a liar. for then the idea would've been given by the viewers. not the radio host.

But they still CHOSE to agree, and CHOSE to voice that opinion. He didn't force them. He didn't trick them. Did they come up with the idea to tattoo them? Yes. Was he the first to say it? Yes. Did they decide to agree with it and say it was a good idea? Yes. There is no trickery there.He waived a flag, got the people to come out thinking he was on their side, then he shot them down. yes, they chose to agree, but the key word is AGREE. they were agreeing to his sentiment of tattooing Muslims and making em wear armbands.

If he already had the plan, as it is clear that he did, then he isn't a bigot. I could stand up and say "I'm a racist". That doesn't make it true.how do you know he it was planned from the very beginning? How do you know during his hour long show, he didn't get a call on his cell from his general manager to tell him "change his viewpoint or this is his last show" so to keep his job he said "Boogha" we don't.

You can stand up and say "Gays shouldn't be allowed to get married" and should alot of people agree and you turn around and pull the same shit that Klein did, you bet your ass I'll be on your back for that. you can call yourself a racist, but to portray one to instill confidence to allow others to express themselves then turn around and lambase them for being racists is giving false pretenses. who else does that? Con men.

Or to expose something and make people think. Maybe, just maybe, someone heard the show and was on the fence about the issue, and upon hearing that hey, that really is alot like nazi germany, reconsidered.or maybe that person though "hey that is a good idea" then turned off the radio not hearing the rest of the program? or worse. he put that idea in some idiot's head and that idiot thinks "well as long as we don't gass them or kill em, tattoes are fine." so he gave someone out there that idea. yep, he exposed his idea for tattoes to everyone and somewhere out there, someone is actually thinking it's a good idea. Klein should be really proud of himself.

My feelings precisely. 4 in 10 Americans are unmitigated assholes, according to that poll.

Americans shouldn't feel bad about this figure, it is substantially lower
than other countries believe the UA quotient of US citizens to be.

Of course if you believe the trend is upwards then it should be a most
serious concern.

Gosh you are so inspiring!
Thanks. :fluffle:
Well, slaves were worth a lot, but keep going!
The documents, and what their stated goals are, were brilliant. USA was slowly moving towards living up to the declaration of independance and the bill of rights, but they have recently gone backwards in a big way.

Really? What precisely is the cost of defeat? I mean real defeat, what Bin Laden and radical Islam want. Europe and America under the thumb of radical islam. Islamic law. You girlfriend in a veil. She can't read. She can't drive. She can't look up. she can wear black, she has that going for her. And she doesn't have to care too much about her hair, that is a godsend!
The above paragraph is only relevant if taking away the rights of individuals will be effective in stopping radical Islam. It wont. Tell me what you think will happen in an American born Muslim from the day he is born is treated like a 2nd class citizen in his birth country, and can't live a normal life. He is much more likely to become a "home grown" terrorist than if he was given all the rights and responsibilities of any other citizen.

That is popular tripe to mouth. It ignores the fact that the radical muslims already consider us godless infidels.

That is popular tripe to mouth. It ignores the fact that the radical christians already consider Muslims godless psychopaths.

My dad bought the cassette tape of that when it came out, and he played it constantly for about a week...

Did you shoot him on day 7?

He waived a flag, got the people to come out thinking he was on their side, then he shot them down. yes, they chose to agree, but the key word is AGREE. they were agreeing to his sentiment of tattooing Muslims and making em wear armbands.

They didn't all just choose to agree - some went further, offering suggestions of their own:
The second congratulated him and added: "Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their forehead but you ship them out of this country ... they are here to kill us."

Another said that tattoos, armbands and other identifying markers such as crescent marks on driver's licenses, passports and birth certificates did not go far enough. "What good is identifying them?" he asked. "You have to set up encampments like during World War Two with the Japanese and Germans."


I haven't heard his program, but based on the article I can't share your indignation towards the radio host. Rather, I find it scary how many are in favour of doing something radical, like making muslims carry special identification, and I see Mr. Kleins act as an attempt to expose those feelings.

yes, they chose to agree, but the key word is AGREE. they were agreeing to his sentiment of tattooing Muslims and making em wear armbands.

What is your excuse for those who advocated detention camps or collective deportation?


who else does that? Con men.
Undercover cops.

or maybe that person though "hey that is a good idea" then turned off the radio not hearing the rest of the program? or worse. he put that idea in some idiot's head and that idiot thinks "well as long as we don't gass them or kill em, tattoes are fine." so he gave someone out there that idea. yep, he exposed his idea for tattoes to everyone and somewhere out there, someone is actually thinking it's a good idea. Klein should be really proud of himself.
Oh, of course, it's the radio host's fault that people are closet fascists and would be willing to force other people to mark themselves as Muslims, or Jews, so others can identify them as such.

Ever feel ashamed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061201/lf_nm/usa_muslims_fear_dc_1) of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing, and for making Britney Spears a multi-millionaire.

Except that Klein didn't actually believe what he'd suggested. Here's how he finished the show:

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.


It's not just the US. Polls in the UK indicate that the majority of people there view Muslims as a threat. Even leftist parties in places like Denmark that espoused multiculturalism are completely changing their stances towards Muslims.

It's only a matter of time. Not saying it's right - just saying it's human nature.

Stop trying to say it's only a US kind of thing...

Oh, of course, it's the radio host's fault that people are closet fascists and would be willing to force other people to mark themselves as Muslims, or Jews, so others can identify them as such.
Hell, it's not like Klein said something that you couldn't potentially hear on Michael Savage's or Glenn Beck's shows. Beck, if you'll remember, asked a newly-elected congressman what the congressman could do to prove he wasn't the enemy simply because he's Muslim. And Junii is twisted about a guy making a point and exposing bias and bigotry on the radio?

I am not surprised at all. I'm just terrified. If any of you have AOL and went on the AOL forum for that news story about the Congressman who's being sworn in on the Koran, you'd see it was filled with posts saying "All Muslims need to be shipped out of the US!!!" and "Fuck that guy!" and "The Koran says to kill all Americans!!!!" and other sort of ignorant nonesence. when I voted, 60% of people were against allowing him to be sworn in on the Koran (dispite the Constitution having a provision for congressmen to be sworn in on the holy book of their choice).

And there it is in a nutshell. Ignorance, hate. Germany wasn't unique in the least. It's disgusting.

Indeed. Have you read the poll results from the aol site? %48 as of last night believed US Muslims sympathize with with Al Qaeda and 39% said that Muslims should be scarred with marks indicating they are of Middle Eastern heritage. It was a frightening display of ingorance that shows the trouble we are facing today. These people are lacking mentally, morally, and sadly claim we should do this because this is a "christian nation." They make me want to vomit.

I am not surprised at all. I'm just terrified. If any of you have AOL and went on the AOL forum for that news story about the Congressman who's being sworn in on the Koran, you'd see it was filled with posts saying "All Muslims need to be shipped out of the US!!!" and "Fuck that guy!" and "The Koran says to kill all Americans!!!!" and other sort of ignorant nonesence. when I voted, 60% of people were against allowing him to be sworn in on the Koran (dispite the Constitution having a provision for congressmen to be sworn in on the holy book of their choice).

And there it is in a nutshell. Ignorance, hate. Germany wasn't unique in the least. It's disgusting.

Indeed. Have you read the poll results from the aol site? %48 as of last night believed US Muslims sympathize with with Al Qaeda and 39% said that Muslims should be scarred with marks indicating they are of Middle Eastern heritage. It was a frightening display of ingorance that shows the trouble we are facing today. These people are lacking mentally, morally, and sadly claim we should do this because this is a "christian nation." They make me want to vomit.

Indeed. The entity into which our country is turning is sickening -- no, outright revolting. Many people care more about the rights of terrorists than they do about the lives of innocent Americans. They would rather a terrorist is able to live comfortably while in prison rather than use coercive interrogation techniques to attempt to extract information from him. They would rather the government not pry into the personal lives of terrorists rather than prevent a terrorist attack from occurring. They are almost as guilty as the terrorists because their actions are what allow the terrorists to succeed in their gruesome goals. To me, those who aid and abet terrorists by passing laws which make it easier for them to slaughter Americans are no better than accomplices.

nice straw man. Is there anyone who wants to aid terrorists?

nice straw man. Is there anyone who wants to aid terrorists?

Yes, there are. Not as many as some think, but yes there are.

Then make all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, etc., wear special IDs, too. I do not discriminate against Muslims, but I feel it necessary that we protect ourselves from the fanatics who seek to butcher us. We need to keep our eye on them.

How is making ALL muslims carry ID cards going to make it easier to spot the select few that wish to do us harm? Unless you're assuming that all muslims are terrorists and we come to our logical conclusion of you being a bigot. 100people carrying ID cards makes it easier to pick out the one who's a terrorist? You still leave yourself in teh same predicament, although now you've pissed on the consitution to do something horrid.

nice straw man. Is there anyone who wants to aid terrorists?

In reality, how many people do you think want to aid terrorists? Are they of the extreme minority of people or not? I again ask, how would this help?

How is making ALL muslims carry ID cards going to make it easier to spot the select few that wish to do us harm? Unless you're assuming that all muslims are terrorists and we come to our logical conclusion of you being a bigot. 100people carrying ID cards makes it easier to pick out the one who's a terrorist? You still leave yourself in teh same predicament, although now you've pissed on the consitution to do something horrid.


Well, if you wanted to eliminate the risk of Islamic terrorism (not all terrorism - just the kind brought by jihadis), you round up all of the Islamic people you can possibly identify (and there will be some misidentification one way or the other) and put them in the Arizona desert in tents.

Hardly the penultimate expression of the support for human rights, but it would make a large portion of the population "feel good" that something was "being done" about terrorism.

The purpose of ID cards is usually to round people up. That's the logic behind most registration schemes - whether for registered televisions and radios, or registered firearms. Or registered people (they even use the voter registration lists in the US to force people to serve on juries).

Yes, some people would be outraged at such a "reprehensible violation of human rights". But, if it had been preceeded by a suitably virulent series of attacks, I'm sure that the average person would be clamoring for its implementation.

And before you think that either party in the US would be against it at that point, think again.

And before you think that either party in the US would be against it at that point, think again.The PATRIOT Act is a perfect example of that phenomenon.

It's not just the US. Polls in the UK indicate that the majority of people there view Muslims as a threat. Even leftist parties in places like Denmark that espoused multiculturalism are completely changing their stances towards Muslims.

It's only a matter of time. Not saying it's right - just saying it's human nature.

Stop trying to say it's only a US kind of thing...It's all of western Europe, not just a select few. Hell, something like 40% of the German voting public partially or wholly endorsed switching to Fascism in a recent survey, listing immigration as the primary reason for doing it...

...I wonder if I'll ever find a place to live?

The PATRIOT Act is a perfect example of that phenomenon.

Yes, that was interesting. As unpopular as Bush's leadership ideas might have been to Democrats, they certainly gave that one a quick rubber stamp (with a few vocal, yet meaningless objections).

No one wants to appear "weak on terrorism". Especially in the aftermath of an attack.

Immediately after 9-11, the concept of internment was discusssed openly. Not implemented, but discussed. The mere fact that it was discussed should be cause for alarm, because no one - no one - shouted it down.

It's all of western Europe, not just a select few. Hell, something like 40% of the German voting public partially or wholly endorsed switching to Fascism in a recent survey, listing immigration as the primary reason for doing it...

...I wonder if I'll ever find a place to live?

Antarctica.

They didn't all just choose to agree - some went further, offering suggestions of their own:that's true, but if you read what I've said, I've said that there's always been bigotry all over the world, so Nazz shouldn't be "suprised" at the amount of calls for such thing.

Post 182 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12028420&postcount=182)

I haven't heard his program, but based on the article I can't share your indignation towards the radio host. Rather, I find it scary how many are in favour of doing something radical, like making muslims carry special identification, and I see Mr. Kleins act as an attempt to expose those feelings.so the racisit and Bigot that starts the rant, rave and incites those feelings is a hero in your eyes if they say "Just kidding" at the end?

What is your excuse for those who advocated detention camps or collective deportation?read my first long post again, I've stated that Biogtry is alive and well all over the place...

Post 182 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12028420&postcount=182)

Undercover cops.ahh, and Undercover cops walk a thin line between sting and entrapment. The UNDERCOVER OFFICER (cops) are held responsible for their actions and the felon/suspect goes free if the officer does not follow proper procedure, do you think they should be free from procedures and responsibility like Klein? do you think they should go out onto the street, holding bags of ice and crack and just offer to sell them to anyone and arrest those that buy? (that's Entrapment, it's illegal for officers to do so.)

Oh, of course, it's the radio host's fault that people are closet fascists and would be willing to force other people to mark themselves as Muslims, or Jews, so others can identify them as such.no, I said it was his fault for inciting the bigotry by SUGGESTING the Tattoos and Headbands, then getting on his high horse when people AGREE with him.
I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said," he told his audience on the AM station 630 WMAL (http://www.wmal.com/), which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland

Agreed... see the bolded and underlined word? AGREED WITH ANYTHING I SAID. He knew he was going to get those kinds of responses, like dangling candy infront of overweight kids, you know you're going to get alot that want that candy. so he didn't EXPOSE anything, he knew it was there, he COUNTED on those responses, and all he did was use that to get on his Moral High Horse to make himself feel better than others.

Had he ask for ideas for dealing with terrorism or making this country secure and then they makes such suggestions, then he's right to get on his moral high horse and complain, but since KLEIN was the one to suggest it, all it shows is that he's egotistical, willing to abuse his posistion as radio host, and has no business "scolding" anyone.

Had he ask for ideas for dealing with terrorism or making this country secure and then they makes such suggestions, then he's right to get on his moral high horse and complain, but since KLEIN was the one to suggest it, all it shows is that he's egotistical, willing to abuse his posistion as radio host, and has no business "scolding" anyone.

I want to go on the record by pointing out I am NOT flaming anyone. I was banned for 5 days in another fight in which JuNii was involved once, for little to no reason, and I want, once again, to point out that THIS IS NOT A FLAME and that THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN THIS THREAD I'VE ANSWERED TO JUNII.

That said, I ask: Would you say the same of a conservative talk show host that said the opposite absurdities (like saying the US is, indeed, the Great Satan or other tripe) in order to make a point about those that agreed with what he said in jest?

...

no, I said it was his fault for inciting the bigotry by SUGGESTING the Tattoos and Headbands, then getting on his high horse when people AGREE with him.


Agreed... see the bolded and underlined word? AGREED WITH ANYTHING I SAID. He knew he was going to get those kinds of responses, like dangling candy infront of overweight kids, you know you're going to get alot that want that candy. so he didn't EXPOSE anything, he knew it was there, he COUNTED on those responses, and all he did was use that to get on his Moral High Horse to make himself feel better than others.

Had he ask for ideas for dealing with terrorism or making this country secure and then they makes such suggestions, then he's right to get on his moral high horse and complain, but since KLEIN was the one to suggest it, all it shows is that he's egotistical, willing to abuse his posistion as radio host, and has no business "scolding" anyone.

Oh bull!

Knowing that something is there and goading it out into the open are two very seperate things. And there can, indeed, be value in bringing it out to provoke a discussion on the matter.

Abuse of position? Proof of egotism?

Gimme a break.

Being a proponent of having the media sticking it's collective heads in the sand on this issue is rediculous - which is what your suggestion is tantamount to. And you know damn well that asking people to call in to discuss terrorism in general in the hopes that a couple will do so by making racist remarks does nothing more than reinforce an appearance that this is a less widespread phenominon than it is.

By provoking a flood of responses, the ugliness and sheer amount of false information in some sectors of the public domain got a good airing.

And a much needed one if you have any interest in fomenting a more rational debate on the issue.

I want to go on the record by pointing out I am NOT flaming anyone. I was banned for 5 days in another fight in which JuNii was involved once, for little to no reason, and I want, once again, to point out that THIS IS NOT A FLAME and that THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN THIS THREAD I'VE ANSWERED TO JUNII.

That said, I ask: Would you say the same of a conservative talk show host that said the opposite absurdities (like saying the US is, indeed, the Great Satan or other tripe) in order to make a point about those that agreed with what he said in jest?
NOT TAKING THIS AS A FLAME. (just making sure your point was recieved! ;) )
except, by saying the US is great, he's offering his Opinion. (and yes, I would still feel the same way, since he's still offereing a false pretense to get a specific type of response. basically trolling on the radio.)

now if he said.. hmm... if he said that America should be a Christian only Nation, suggesting that the Bible be placed higher than the constitution...
and callers call in to say that all other religions should be banned and those that follow them, arrested and kicked out...
and then he turns around and berates those that agree? yes, I would still feel the same way.


FAKE NEWS REPORT!
When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all other Religions other than Chrisitanity in the United States should be banned and prohibitied from being practiced in America, the phone lines jammed instantly.

I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said," he told his audience on the AM station 630 KDEN, which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland

"For me to suggest that a Country founded on the idea of Freedom of Religion to go and ban other religions is disgusting. It's beyond disgusting."

yes, I would still be saying he's a hypocrite and just as guilty as those he lambasts because he suggested it, then complains when people agree with him.

NOT TAKING THIS AS A FLAME. (just making sure your point was recieved! ;) )
except, by saying the US is great, he's offering his Opinion. (and yes, I would still feel the same way, since he's still offereing a false pretense to get a specific type of response. basically trolling on the radio.)

Meh. If that's true, I may disagree with you here, but you're coherent.

Oh bull!

Knowing that something is there and goading it out into the open are two very seperate things. And there can, indeed, be value in bringing it out to provoke a discussion on the matter.

Abuse of position? Proof of egotism?

Gimme a break.

Being a proponent of having the media sticking it's collective heads in the sand on this issue is rediculous - which is what your suggestion is tantamount to. And you know damn well that asking people to call in to discuss terrorism in general in the hopes that a couple will do so by making racist remarks does nothing more than reinforce an appearance that this is a less widespread phenominon than it is.

By provoking a flood of responses, the ugliness and sheer amount of false information in some sectors of the public domain got a good airing.

And a much needed one if you have any interest in fomenting a more rational debate on the issue.
then why did he, Jerry Klien, suggest Tattooing and such to identify Muslims? what would his response be if he got nothing but calls of being an asshole?

would you HONESTLY believe him if he said that he's proud of such responses? or would you think he's trying to cover his Ass as people called him a bigot and Racist, likening him to Hitler?

Because he counted on calls to agree with him, he didn't expose anything, he pointed up to the sky and said, LOOK CLOUDS!

and yes, He did PROVOKE THEM and he presented FALSE INFORMATION to get his response. Just the same if He incited a riot then reported on the actions of the Rioters as being childish and a poor example of being human. just the same if he teased a dog to bite him then call the dog a menace and having it killed for attacking him.

then why did he, Jerry Klien, suggest Tattooing and such to identify Muslims? what would his response be if he got nothing but calls of being an asshole?
My guess? He'd have been ecstatic. But you can't even admit that possibility, because it blows your whole argument out of the water. You're so tied up in the idea that Klein did something bad that you can't even admit the possibility that he did a useful thing, and would have been pleased if it had backfired on him.

Meh. If that's true, I may disagree with you here, but you're coherent.

I hate it when a person baits others and then be condensending to them for reacting in a fashion that the person was expecting. no matter what the topic.

My guess? He'd have been ecstatic. But you can't even admit that possibility, because it blows your whole argument out of the water. You're so tied up in the idea that Klein did something bad that you can't even admit the possibility that he did a useful thing, and would have been pleased if it had backfired on him.

and you're so tied to the fact that the results showed what you wanted that you are ignoring the procedure that brought that results.

Remember Mtae's "When should the USA attack Iraq" thread? all those responses in the poll were geared to when, not if. (ignoring the fact that the thread itself was Hypothetical)

also "Do you disagree with Science" thread that the poll only gave reason WHY people may disagree with science, with no option of "I trust Science"

Those are the same type of thing, it's looking for one specific response. Klein did the same thing, he offered one and only one idea and lambasted those that agreed with him. They, the listeners, didn't suggest tattooing, Klein did, the callers that called for worse could've built up on his idea, perhaps those callers were being sarcastic, trying to show how much like the concentration camps they were? but no one can really know for certain.

and I bet had that happened, there would be threads here lambasting him for suggesting that we treat muslims the way Jews were treated by Nazis... with you leading the charge.

and you're so tied to the fact that the results showed what you wanted that you are ignoring the procedure that brought that results.

Remember Mtae's "When should the USA attack Iraq" thread? all those responses in the poll were geared to when, not if. (ignoring the fact that the thread itself was Hypothetical)

also "Do you disagree with Science" thread that the poll only gave reason WHY people may disagree with science, with no option of "I trust Science"

Those are the same type of thing, it's looking for one specific response. Klein did the same thing, he offered one and only one idea and lambasted those that agreed with him. They, the listeners, didn't suggest tattooing, Klein did, the callers that called for worse could've built up on his idea, perhaps those callers were being sarcastic, trying to show how much like the concentration camps they were? but no one can really know for certain.

and I bet had that happened, there would be threads here lambasting him for suggesting that we treat muslims the way Jews were treated by Nazis... with you leading the charge.
Every occur to you that there's a reason I stay out of MTAE's threads? They're bullshit mental masturbation. But what Klein put out there wasn't significantly different from what you can hear on more than a handful of right-wing talk shows. Like I said a few pages back, is there that much difference between what Klein said and what Savage or Beck says on any given day? What Klein did--and I maintain this was a public service, no matter how you try to twist it or my response--was point out that this issue is more widespread than previously acknowledged. It wasn't just the purview of right-wing loonies and their fringe followers. This is a big problem.

By the way--and I've been meaning to say this for some time, but your reaction on this thread a few pages back brings it to mind--I find your claim to be a NS firefighter to be supremely sarcastic. Is that your intention?

My feelings precisely. 4 in 10 Americans are unmitigated assholes, according to that poll.

No, 4 out of 10 are Islamophobic bigots. A much higher proportion are assholes. :D

It's not just the US. Polls in the UK indicate that the majority of people there view Muslims as a threat. Even leftist parties in places like Denmark that espoused multiculturalism are completely changing their stances towards Muslims.

It's only a matter of time. Not saying it's right - just saying it's human nature.

Stop trying to say it's only a US kind of thing...

Unlike the US, they have a fairly good reason to. They have unemployed immigrant Muslims from Islamic countries pouring in and forming isolated, all-Muslim communities which creates a mini-Middle East of hateful Muslim propaganda combined with the unemployed immigrant thing breeds a ton of Muslim resentment and violence.

then why did he, Jerry Klien, suggest Tattooing and such to identify Muslims? what would his response be if he got nothing but calls of being an asshole?

would you HONESTLY believe him if he said that he's proud of such responses? or would you think he's trying to cover his Ass as people called him a bigot and Racist, likening him to Hitler?

Because he counted on calls to agree with him, he didn't expose anything, he pointed up to the sky and said, LOOK CLOUDS!

and yes, He did PROVOKE THEM and he presented FALSE INFORMATION to get his response. Just the same if He incited a riot then reported on the actions of the Rioters as being childish and a poor example of being human. just the same if he teased a dog to bite him then call the dog a menace and having it killed for attacking him.


Holy over-the-top false analogies batmman!

This equates to having animals KILLED after provoking them?

please, take a deep breathe and relax a bit.


OK, so here's a question for you: Up until Klein's program, how many in-depth discussions on the upswing of POPULAR anti-muslim bigotry have you seen in the mainstream media?

None perhaps?

How many in the past two days?

So, did it serve any purpose? Or do you think that these clouds are just so self-evident that no discussion on the phenominon has value?

To you, it seems, it is worthless because of the manner in which he did it, and you would have preferred the equally dishonest method of outing this phenominon by asking a roundabout question on how to deal with terrorism, and then cherry-picking the responses that met a racist criteria?

How the hell is that any better?

Or do you think that a cattle call of "Hi: I want all you racist mofos out there to call in so I can chastize, embarrass, and ridicule you" would have worked?

I think not....


In point of fact, what I find fascinating is not that his provokation elicited the desired response from the racists. No, what really was telling to me was how few people called in to chastise him for his statement. Frankly, I think that the silence by the majority mindset when there came an opportunity to bash an apparent racist is even more stunningly disgusting than those who called in to agree with him.


Maybe to you this is just "Oh look, clouds".

To many of us, the shamefull display (and lack there of) from BOTH sides of the coin on that show are disturbing and merit the discussion that this show provoked.

You don't like the way he provoked it? That's your perogative.

But maybe, just maybe, it needed to be provoked to kick off the conversation.

Unlike the US, they have a fairly good reason to. They have unemployed immigrant Muslims from Islamic countries pouring in and forming isolated, all-Muslim communities which creates a mini-Middle East of hateful Muslim propaganda combined with the unemployed immigrant thing breeds a ton of Muslim resentment and violence.

Wait a second - you're saying that some people have a logical, true reason to view Muslims as a threat?

read my first long post again, I've stated that Biogtry is alive and well all over the place...
Irrelevant, you were making excuses for the nazi bigots and blaming the radio host by focusing on the people that agreed with him, as opposed to the people they actually talked about - those that wanted to go farther.

ahh, and Undercover cops walk a thin line between sting and entrapment. The UNDERCOVER OFFICER (cops) are held responsible for their actions and the felon/suspect goes free if the officer does not follow proper procedure, do you think they should be free from procedures and responsibility like Klein? do you think they should go out onto the street, holding bags of ice and crack and just offer to sell them to anyone and arrest those that buy? (that's Entrapment, it's illegal for officers to do so.)
So you equate making a suggestion to entrapment? Isn't that what undercover cops do? Klein never made a straight point, he made a suggestion. It is not equivalent to arresting people walking up and asking for crack. You are again excusing the closet fascists in order to string up an innocent man.

no, I said it was his fault for inciting the bigotry by SUGGESTING the Tattoos and Headbands, then getting on his high horse when people AGREE with him.
So your excuse now that you have been called out on bullshit is that the people wern't bigoted to begin with but only became bigoted upon listening to his radio show? Let's see, what side is Junii on, oh yes, it's the "let's put Muslims in work camps" side.


Agreed... see the bolded and underlined word? AGREED WITH ANYTHING I SAID. He knew he was going to get those kinds of responses, like dangling candy infront of overweight kids,
I don't even remotely see how you are coming to this conclusion. How does "agreed with anything I said" equate to baiting? I will help you out, it doesn't.

Had he ask for ideas for dealing with terrorism or making this country secure and then they makes such suggestions, then he's right to get on his moral high horse and complain,
Maybe he expected people to not be sick fucks and disagree with him, like his first caller. Maybe he expected more of the current human race and America than one would have expected of Nazi Germany.

but since KLEIN was the one to suggest it, all it shows is that he's egotistical, willing to abuse his posistion as radio host, and has no business "scolding" anyone.
Oh look, you are excusing the callers again to make a scapegoat out of Klein. Klein did not suggest work camps, Klein did not suggest mass deportation, callers came up with that on their own. But of course, you already excused that behavior without addressing it then went back to blaming Klein for satirically suggesting less serious things.

Again, Junii is on what side? Doesn't look like it's the "right" side.

that's true, but if you read what I've said, I've said that there's always been bigotry all over the world, so Nazz shouldn't be "suprised" at the amount of calls for such thing.

Post 182 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12028420&postcount=182)
I can't speak for Nazz, but personally I'm surprised that the number in the polls are so high - not the number of callers. (I have this mental image that only the wackos wearing stuffed rabbit-hats are the ones that choose to call in to talk radio :p )


so the racisit and Bigot that starts the rant, rave and incites those feelings is a hero in your eyes if they say "Just kidding" at the end?
No, absolutely not a hero. But I don't blame him for it, if he's serious about not being serious. I don't like that kind of entrapment/luring out particularly, I have to admit, but I view for example Borat in the same manner: When he gets a room full of people to sing "Throw the jew down the well" I know he isn't being serious; They don't know that, however, and that is scary to think of when you see them singing along merrily.

Now, Klein is no Borat, and he could have done it differently, but I don't feel he did anything worthy of condemnation.

Oh, and now I've actually listened to the broadcast. He answers many calls in the 13 minutes that's left of his show after revealing his "hoax".

Wait a second - you're saying that some people have a logical, true reason to view Muslims as a threat?
In Europe where the Muslim immigrant population creates and then presents a threat themselves, not Muslims as a whole. And, their threat is not wholly created by the fact they are Muslim but by conditions experienced by all poor immigrants.

In Europe where the Muslim immigrant population creates and then presents a threat themselves, not Muslims as a whole. And, their threat is not wholly created by the fact they are Muslim but by conditions experienced by all poor immigrants.

Ah, so immigrants are to blame...

Ah, so immigrants are to blame...Not what he said. He said we manufacture impossible conditions for the immigrants in our countries (of whom the majority tends to be Muslim). This causes social problems, which in turn are blamed on Muslims.

It's kind of like how many American rightwingers blame poor people for being poor.

Every occur to you that there's a reason I stay out of MTAE's threads? They're bullshit mental masturbation. But what Klein put out there wasn't significantly different from what you can hear on more than a handful of right-wing talk shows. Like I said a few pages back, is there that much difference between what Klein said and what Savage or Beck says on any given day? What Klein did--and I maintain this was a public service, no matter how you try to twist it or my response--was point out that this issue is more widespread than previously acknowledged. It wasn't just the purview of right-wing loonies and their fringe followers. This is a big problem.I'm not twisting your response Nazz, the fact that you are hailing as a hero, the very person who first suggested, over open radio, to have Muslims Tattooed and wear bands. the only qualification that seperates the bigots you rile against and Jerry Klein is the fact that Jerry said "I'm not serious about this folks." He instigated those responses with his suggestion of tattoos and headbands.

Do you deny that Klein suggested that Muslims be tattoed and forced to wear headbands?

Do you deny that there is a possiblity that his Psudo-rant was so well constructed (to be convincing) that it might have convinced some of his listeners that it's a good idea?

By the way--and I've been meaning to say this for some time, but your reaction on this thread a few pages back brings it to mind--I find your claim to be a NS firefighter to be supremely sarcastic. Is that your intention?Trying to divert attention away from the argument with an attack on the poster, and not the argument? why? Are you agreeing with me that Klein is as guilty as those bigots who agreed with him?

Do you deny that there is a possiblity that his Psudo-rant was so well constructed (to be convincing) that it might have convinced some of his listeners that it's a good idea?Is it possible? Sure. It's also possible that OJ Simpson didn't actually murder his wife. It's just not very likely in my opinion.

Trying to divert attention away from the argument with an attack on the poster, and not the argument? why? Are you agreeing with me that Klein is as guilty as those bigots who agreed with him?
Not a chance in hell. The fact that you can't see a moral difference between them is just as disturbing to me now as it always has been.

Irrelevant, you were making excuses for the nazi bigots and blaming the radio host by focusing on the people that agreed with him, as opposed to the people they actually talked about - those that wanted to go farther. please show me where I make excuses for Nazi bigots, I am holding Klein responsible for provoking that response, I didn’t say those people agreeing with him are not in the wrong, I’m saying Klein is also wrong and is as guilty of being a bigot as those that agreed with him.

So you equate making a suggestion to entrapment? considering it was Jerry Klein that made the suggestion … YES.
Isn't that what undercover cops do? nope, cops don’t offer to sell you something, you have to ask. Vice recordings have the female undercover officer going to the car and saying anything but “wanna pay me to have sex?” it’s the john that has to offer money to the officer for it to stick.

Same with drug deals, the officer can ask, “I hear I can get [item] from you.” Or the victim makes that comment, the officer does not offer to sell the suspect anything until it’s clear that the suspect is buying. (which is usually confirmed before the face to face.)

Klein never made a straight point, he made a suggestion.
Did he or did he not suggest tattooing Muslims and making them wear identifying bands?
It is not equivalent to arresting people walking up and asking for crack. You are again excusing the closet fascists in order to string up an innocent man. and you are excusing the instigator because he said “sorry, I wasn’t serious” so as long as OJ says “IF I did it” it’s ok? As long as Michael Richards says “I’m not a racist” his remarks can be excused?

So your excuse now that you have been called out on bullshit is that the people wern't bigoted to begin with but only became bigoted upon listening to his radio show? Let's see, what side is Junii on, oh yes, it's the "let's put Muslims in work camps" side. where did I say that? I said Bigotry was everywhere, I did posit that possibly, someone may have been conviced that tattoos are a good idea because they listened to, and trusted, Jerry Klein.

I don't even remotely see how you are coming to this conclusion. How does "agreed with anything I said" equate to baiting? I will help you out, it doesn't. I didn’t say that. I said, Jerry Klein suggested Tattoos and such. Do you deny this?

Do you deny that the first person on his show, to suggest a nazi-like treatment of muslims on his radio program was Jerry Klein?

Did he read that idea off of an e-mail or letter he received from a listener?
Maybe he expected people to not be sick fucks and disagree with him, like his first caller. Maybe he expected more of the current human race and America than one would have expected of Nazi Germany. Right…
Unlike the US, they have a fairly good reason to. They have unemployed immigrant Muslims from Islamic countries pouring in and forming isolated, all-Muslim communities which creates a mini-Middle East of hateful Muslim propaganda combined with the unemployed immigrant thing breeds a ton of Muslim resentment and violence. if you see that, don’t you think others do?

Only some of those will see that as a threat while others see that as people of common interests/history gravitating towards each other.

Considering the “War on Terror” and considering what gets reported, can you honestly say that there is a possibility of everyone disagreeing with an idea to identify Muslims? I got news for you. There are communities in the continental US that still blame and hate the Japanese because of Pearl Harbor. 9/11 is more recent, so of course there would be people who hate and are bigoted to Muslims.

Oh look, you are excusing the callers again to make a scapegoat out of Klein. Klein did not suggest work camps, Klein did not suggest mass deportation, callers came up with that on their own. But of course, you already excused that behavior without addressing it then went back to blaming Klein for satirically suggesting less serious things. where am I excusing the callers? Did I say the callers were blameless? No. I said Jerry Klein is just at guilty as those callers.

Did I say I was surprised with the bigotry in the world? No.

Are feelings against Muslims so well hidden that it needed exposing? No.

Am I calling Jerry Klein a hero for exposing this anti-muslim feeling? No.

Again, Junii is on what side? Doesn't look like it's the "right" side.then you really don’t know what side I’m on. I’m not holding up one Bigot and calling him a hero for exposing the same bigotry he’s exposed. Like some people here.

Not a chance in hell. The fact that you can't see a moral difference between them is just as disturbing to me now as it always has been.so someone holds a differeing opinion or view and you say flame? (In reference to you innsinuating that i am flaming the thread by asking about the NS Firefighter tag in my sig.)

It bothers me that your moral views are such that someone can seriously and willingly bait viewers into responding just to feel "morally superior" makes them a HERO. Do I call you for flaming? no. Do I think less of you? No.

so someone holds a differeing opinion or view and you say flame? (In reference to you innsinuating that i am flaming the thread by asking about the NS Firefighter tag in my sig.)I dind't even come close to insinuating that you were flaming me. What I was pointing out is that a person who claims to be a firefighter might be expected to use a less fiery sort of rhetoric than you were using, and frankly, continue to use. A firefighter, I expect, is one who tries to put fires out, as opposed to blowing on the embers.

The reason I pointed it out is because you place yourself on a pedestal with that signature. Does it hold you to a higher standard? I think so, but it's a purely voluntary standard, and you can retreat from it at any time.

It bothers me that your moral views are such that someone can seriously and willingly bait viewers into responding just to feel "morally superior" makes them a HERO. Do I call you for flaming? no. Do I think less of you? No.

You obviously have a different view of his motives than I do. I think he was interested in something far more important than simply feeling morally superior to those he "baited," to use your term. I don't think I ever referred to him as a hero--simply as morally superior to those who agreed with his comments and who expanded on them. And I consider myself superior to them as well.

I dind't even come close to insinuating that you were flaming me. What I was pointing out is that a person who claims to be a firefighter might be expected to use a less fiery sort of rhetoric than you were using, and frankly, continue to use. A firefighter, I expect, is one who tries to put fires out, as opposed to blowing on the embers.just making sure. sorry about that. but also look at the rhetoric being blown towards me, My replies are fiery, but also controlled. also remember, I am human as well Nazz, just like you and the mods. please allow me my passions.

The reason I pointed it out is because you place yourself on a pedestal with that signature. Does it hold you to a higher standard? I think so, but it's a purely voluntary standard, and you can retreat from it at any time.I am proud to be a firefighter, and yes, I can "quit", but it's really not my nature to do so.

You obviously have a different view of his motives than I do. I think he was interested in something far more important than simply feeling morally superior to those he "baited," to use your term. I don't think I ever referred to him as a hero--simply as morally superior to those who agreed with his comments and who expanded on them. And I consider myself superior to them as well. you did say he was morally superior even tho no one refutes that he was the one to suggest Tattoos, while his motives may be right. his procedure wasn't.

had he asked "what are your ideas for securing America from terrorists" or somthing along those lines and a caller then says "All muslims should be tattooed," then I won't be arguing about what he did and his rant at the end would have me applauding him. but he suggested the tattoos. he suggested the Nazi-like action. so he's guilty of setting up the situation for his moral rant.

that's my only complaint about this, not that the bigots who responded are guiltless or not bigots, but that Klein has to include himself as a bigot for making that suggestion.

Ah, so immigrants are to blame...
Conditions that are prevalent among poor immigrants and other poor.

where did I say that? I said Bigotry was everywhere, I did posit that possibly, someone may have been conviced that tattoos are a good idea because they listened to, and trusted, Jerry Klein.
Bam. You are dodging the issue again. You are simply brushing off the people who agreed with the suggestions and then went further by advocating deportation and work camps by saying "bigotry is everywhere" then going back to crucifying Klein. I will not ever accept your attacks on Klein while you continue to simply excuse those who called in to advocate far worse than he suggested. You are ignoring the major issue in order to attack Klein for something that the article didn't even bring up and for supposedly spreading bigotry (and then going back and saying that bigotry already existed).

I didn’t say that.
Yes, you did.

Bam. You are dodging the issue again. You are simply brushing off the people who agreed with the suggestions and then went further by advocating deportation and work camps by saying "bigotry is everywhere" then going back to crucifying Klein. I will not ever accept your attacks on Klein while you continue to simply excuse those who called in to advocate far worse than he suggested. You are ignoring the major issue in order to attack Klein for something that the article didn't even bring up and for supposedly spreading bigotry (and then going back and saying that bigotry already existed).

Bam right back, you just showed that you didn't read my posts. I never said those bigots are blameless, I never said those bigots were right to feel that way (I did say they had the Right to hold their opinions and thoughts as long as they don't act them out in a detrimental way.)

again, please show me where I am excusing those who agreed with Klein.

as for igoring the issue of Bigotry in america, I did address it in my post. If you really did read it, you would see what I said about it.

I just said Klein should be included because he specifically made that nazi-like suggestion and thus helped spread that bigotry, intentional or not. and seeing that you didn't refute anything I said about Klein making that statement, I can see you agree that Klein was wrong. His intensions may be in the right, but his method was wrong.


Yes, you did.
Quote it. I showed where Klein admits to suggesting his nazi like technique to the world. a fact that you seem to ignore.

Bam right back, you just showed that you didn't read my posts. I never said those bigots are blameless,
Then you didn't read mine. You brushed them off with a simple "bigots will be bigots."

I just said Klein should be included
But you are attacking Klein far more severely than you are attacking those that went further.

because he specifically made that nazi-like suggestion and thus helped spread that bigotry,
Which you always end up saying is pre-existant. Which you said earlier in this post. How is a pre-existant condition spread among those in which it already exists?

I'm not twisting your response Nazz, the fact that you are hailing as a hero, the very person who first suggested, over open radio, to have Muslims Tattooed and wear bands. the only qualification that seperates the bigots you rile against and Jerry Klein is the fact that Jerry said "I'm not serious about this folks."

No, the qualification that seperates Klein from the bigots is that he accully wasn't serious.

Oh, Means, but you already ARE ashamed to be an American.

You despise most of the rights your founding fathers gave you.

You support measures that are pretty much equal to the ones your ancestors fought in World War 2.

You support the same discrimination your country congratulated MLK with a holiday for standing up against.

You hate the same civil rights that make the US different from Soviet Russia, Iran, or North Korea.

You despise the same free speech that your forefathers support.

You were ashamed to be an American way before ever coming here. In fact, you're not an American. You so far have shown to hate everything America stands for. I can't think of anyone more anti-American than you.
I know I missed the wave of praise for this, but better late than never:

Beautiful, Heikoku, beautiful.

No, the qualification that seperates Klein from the bigots is that he accully wasn't serious.

And I think the point being made by some is that the separation is a thin one.

I gave this some thought before posting. Americans are legally obligated to carry some form of ID (drivers license, state ID, etc...) So, I don't see any harm in issueing the foreigners a similiar type ID card.

I'm against the tattooing, armbands, concentration camps, etc... but think an ID card would be sufficient and very reasonable. With having that magnetic strip would give the local law enforcement agencies access to the federal information needed.
Wrong. Americans are NOT required to carry any kind of ID within their own country. They are only required to carry licenses while performing activities that require licenses. So you have to carry your driver's license while you are driving but not at other times. Also, no American is required to present ID of any kind to any person under any circumstances. If you choose not to do so, there may be consequences -- such as a bank may choose not to give you an account with them, or the police may choose to keep you in custody until they find out on their own who you are -- but that is your risk to run if you so choose. You don't have to identify yourself if you don't want to.

I know I missed the wave of praise for this, but better late than never:

Beautiful, Heikoku, beautiful.

I love it when I get praise. My ego goes shinier! :D

Thx! ^_^

<snip>

In point of fact, what I find fascinating is not that his provokation elicited the desired response from the racists. No, what really was telling to me was how few people called in to chastise him for his statement. Frankly, I think that the silence by the majority mindset when there came an opportunity to bash an apparent racist is even more stunningly disgusting than those who called in to agree with him.


Maybe to you this is just "Oh look, clouds".

To many of us, the shamefull display (and lack there of) from BOTH sides of the coin on that show are disturbing and merit the discussion that this show provoked.

You don't like the way he provoked it? That's your perogative.

But maybe, just maybe, it needed to be provoked to kick off the conversation.
I agree that this is the most disheartening part of the story. Where is the voice of reason? When will the majority realize that the time for being "the silent majority" is over? Now is the time to make ourselves heard, or this repulsive minority will continue to control the public debate and fan the flames of war with their repulsive counterparts in other parts of the world.

And I think the point being made by some is that the separation is a thin one.Nah. Swift, for instance, isn't a child killer, he's a satirist attempting to show the plight of the Irish during the potato famine by suggesting they start eating babies. Exageration is one means of drawing attentiont to social issues.

Nah. Swift, for instance, isn't a child killer, he's a satirist attempting to show the plight of the Irish during the potato famine by suggesting they start eating babies. Exageration is one means of drawing attentiont to social issues.

You'll have to forgive me - I have a low opinion of radio talk show hosts (and WMAL is a local station for me).

Nah. Swift, for instance, isn't a child killer, he's a satirist attempting to show the plight of the Irish during the potato famine by suggesting they start eating babies. Exageration is one means of drawing attentiont to social issues.

And a very effective one. Sasha Baron Cohen is a modern equivalent, albeit a poor man's version of Swift.

And a very effective one. Sasha Baron Cohen is a modern equivalent, albeit a poor man's version of Swift.

Radio talk show hosts aren't Swift, either.

Bam. You are dodging the issue again. You are simply brushing off the people who agreed with the suggestions and then went further by advocating deportation and work camps by saying "bigotry is everywhere" then going back to crucifying Klein. I will not ever accept your attacks on Klein while you continue to simply excuse those who called in to advocate far worse than he suggested. You are ignoring the major issue in order to attack Klein for something that the article didn't even bring up and for supposedly spreading bigotry (and then going back and saying that bigotry already existed).


Yes, you did.

Then you didn't read mine. You brushed them off with a simple "bigots will be bigots."which is not Excusing them, but aknowledging that they exsist.

But you are attacking Klein far more severely than you are attacking those that went further.because he is just as wrong as those bigots. worse since he used his trust and his media for his own personal ego boost, and some people here are praising him for it.

I didn't "Attack" the bigots who agreed with DJ Bigot because everyone else was. Neither did I say that they were blameless, nor did I excuse them as you so wrongfully claim. I just aknowledged that they were out there.

Which you always end up saying is pre-existant. Which you said earlier in this post. How is a pre-existant condition spread among those in which it already exists?because if you continued to read, Bigotry is not just an anti muslim feeling, it's about being intolerlant to any differing opinion, belief, creed, idea, group... etc.


As I also posted earlier.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) –
big•ot /ˈbɪgət/
–noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

American Heritage Dictionary –
big•ot (bĭg'ət)
n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) -
big•ot•ry /ˈbɪgətri/

–noun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

American Heritage Dictionary
big•ot•ry (bĭg'ə-trē)

n. The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

Hatred is hatred, bigotry is bigotry, there are no degrees only degrees of controlling it. It don’t matter who it’s directed at, it don’t matter which ideals, beliefs or creeds one is intolerant against, it’s still bigotry. So yes, being intolerant for those who are intolerant is still bigotry.
so a bigot who hates terrorists, but didn't consider tattooing muslims just got that idea from Mr Klein (spreads). Bigots rationalize their hatred, they will add all sorts of conditions like "We're not gonna gas them, just deport em," or what not. remember, not all of those agreeing with Klein suggested killing them.

Ideas, Information, Love, Genersosity, Hatred... all spread the same way, though our words so some person who turned off his radio before Klein admitted his "hoax" would still think that klein was serious and they will give serious though to his suggestion. whether they agree or not is up to that person, but Klein put the seed of that idea into their heads.

I dont think that this radio hoax revealed "US Ugliness" as much as it revealed ugliness in:
"People that listen to radio talk shows AND have to call in to speak.


Think of the type that does this. Everyone knows someone that does.

Radio talk show hosts aren't Swift, either.

Klein is a lot closer than you or Junii are giving him credit for being.

No, the qualification that seperates Klein from the bigots is that he accully wasn't serious.
Both sides took him seriously. which means he portrayed himself serious enough to convince his listeners that he was serious with his idea.

Klein is a lot closer than you or Junii are giving him credit for being.
Or he covered his bigoted ass well enough to fool you.

Klein is a lot closer than you or Junii are giving him credit for being.

You haven't heard Klein's usual material.

Or he covered his bigoted ass well enough to fool you.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

:p

well, it is a possiblity... :D

Rgarding the OP, I'd point out that 40% is still a minority. It is alarmingly high, but we should take this as incentive to get active and save what is ours. We are not at the point of "abandon ship," yet. Having said that, in the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that I have already made my plans for getting out of Dodge if we fail, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to give up fighting yet. I just like to have an escape plan handy. Remember, pessimism prepares us for life's ups and downs.

We should keep in mind that, no matter where we live, we will always run into this mindset. We will always have to guard and sometimes fight against it. I've often mentioned John Dean's book Conservatives Without Conscience, and I'll do it again now. Whether one agrees with Dean's conclusions or not, the data he presents are intriguing.

According to the studies he references, roughly 25% of all of humanity, really, is authoritarian. Authoritarianism is not a political philosophy agreed with by groups. It is an attitude towards life rooted in an individual's psychology. It is type of personality. That is why it appears everywhere.

Where authoritarians hold power, you see unequal socieites and totalitarian political systems headed up by absolute authority figures and emphasizing submission to a worldly power against threats from an outsider/enemy figure (often rather vague). In liberal, egalitarian, democratic societies, you find approximately 25% of the population are unhappy authoritarians who think the country is going to the dogs and evil outsiders are on the brink of killing everyone. This occurs everywhere, according to international studies which have been and are ongoing for over 50 years, and which have compiled results from literally hundreds of thousands of subjects. John Dean's book gives links to the studies and the scientists conducting them.

Under most circumstances, there are never enough authoritarians to take over more than a very small country. But the danger for larger countries, like the US, comes when societal pressures and/or military or security problems create a general sense of insecurity or threat in the majority of people, no matter what their psychology may be. Then non-authoritarians start to think the authoritarians' ideas might make sense, at least in the short term, and that is when a lot of people make what Dean describes as a deal with the devil, letting their fear make them sign onto plans they really believe are morally and ethically wrong. This is how millions of people can wake up one day, look at their shiny, new, millitant, fascist dystopia, and cry "What have we done? How do we get out of this?"

In this, as in all things, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We need to keep on exposing, debunking and denouncing these disgusting ideas while they are still just a fringe group view.

Ugly people exist everywhere.

A couple days ago, I listened to a story where they were changing the immigration test for knowledge of the US. They are tossing the basic date questions for more about how things work.

The station decided to walk around (I forget where they where) and ask people some of the test questions.

It was hit and miss for many of the people.

One missed all of them. She was from Houston. She was asked if the test was too hard for immigrants and she said it was not hard enough. :rolleyes:

She can't even answer questions about how the government works and I bet she would have a few "opinions" about those evil immigrants.

Ugly people exist everywhere.

You'll have to forgive me - I have a low opinion of radio talk show hosts (and WMAL is a local station for me).

It's a local station for me too. Where do you live? It might be the same WMAL

And I think the point being made by some is that the separation is a thin one.

I don't think so. What he really thinks is a big distinction for me.

I love it when I get praise. My ego goes shinier! :D

Thx! ^_^

Yeah man, mad ups to you.

Both sides took him seriously. which means he portrayed himself serious enough to convince his listeners that he was serious with his idea.

Yea, it's called satire.

Sorry if I was at all quiet on this issue, but I've just gotten over a malware thingy with my computer. I must say, I was pretty shocked by what I read in the OP - and admittedly, no, I haven't bothered to read the interceding 23 pages written to date.

Sorry if I was at all quiet on this issue, but I've just gotten over a malware thingy with my computer. I must say, I was pretty shocked by what I read in the OP - and admittedly, no, I haven't bothered to read the interceding 23 pages written to date.

Because you're a quitter