NationStates Jolt Archive

Ever feel ashamed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061201/lf_nm/usa_muslims_fear_dc_1) of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing, and for making Britney Spears a multi-millionaire.

WASHINGTON (Reuters)- When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band, the phone lines jammed instantly.

The first caller to the station in Washington said that Klein must be "off his rocker." The second congratulated him and added: "Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their forehead but you ship them out of this country ... they are here to kill us."

Another said that tattoos, armbands and other identifying markers such as crescent marks on driver's licenses, passports and birth certificates did not go far enough. "What good is identifying them?" he asked. "You have to set up encampments like during World War Two with the Japanese and Germans."

Except that Klein didn't actually believe what he'd suggested. Here's how he finished the show:
"I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said," he told his audience on the AM station 630 WMAL (http://www.wmal.com/), which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland

"For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people's bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver's license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It's beyond disgusting.

"Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen ... We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous."
There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.
Those in agreement are not a fringe minority: A Gallup poll this summer of more than 1,000 Americans showed that 39 percent were in favor of requiring Muslims in the United States, including American citizens, to carry special identification.

Roughly a quarter of those polled said they would not want to live next door to a Muslim and a third thought that Muslims in the United States sympathized with al Qaeda, the extremist group behind the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.
Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.

Ever feel ashamed of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing

My dad bought the cassette tape of that when it came out, and he played it constantly for about a week...

Well, I guess it's another chip in the theory that there was something unique about Germany that allowed the Holocaust to happen.

I'm not really surprised, but I am disappointed.

I live around people who think like that. People who think that anybody different needs to be treated like an outsider, not to mention bullied and spat upon.

Do their opinions matter? No, they don't. They never have, and they never will, because they have their heads up their asses, always accepting what authority figures tell them, and never for one second questioning the actions of those who are supposed to be protecting them.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.

You and others like you are the reason the US is NOT beyond saving. The fact that people like this DJ are willing to stand up and speak out proves, to me at least, that the US is not lost but that it is teetering on a precipice that it may fall in to....just keep on being a good American by your standards and you'll be Ok.

Do their opinions matter? No, they don't. They never have, and they never will, because they have their heads up their asses, always accepting what authority figures tell them, and never for one second questioning the actions of those who are supposed to be protecting them.

isn't that precisely why their opinions do in fact matter?

39%?

I think I may need to go cry now.

I am not surprised at all. I'm just terrified. If any of you have AOL and went on the AOL forum for that news story about the Congressman who's being sworn in on the Koran, you'd see it was filled with posts saying "All Muslims need to be shipped out of the US!!!" and "Fuck that guy!" and "The Koran says to kill all Americans!!!!" and other sort of ignorant nonesence. when I voted, 60% of people were against allowing him to be sworn in on the Koran (dispite the Constitution having a provision for congressmen to be sworn in on the holy book of their choice).

And there it is in a nutshell. Ignorance, hate. Germany wasn't unique in the least. It's disgusting.

[snip] are you saying that people cannot hold their own opinions on every issue, and cannot voice them out when invited to do so?

let them air their opinions. just don't vote them into office.

And people call me crazy when I say that there could be a genocide against muslims coming.

are you saying that people cannot hold their own opinions on every issue, and cannot voice them out when invited to do so?

let them air their opinions. just don't vote them into office.

They can have their opinions, but when their opinions are ignorant, hateful, childish, harmful to others, and flat out wrong, I'm ganna say so.

"The Koran says to kill all Americans!!!!"

That statement made my day. :p

They can have their opinions, but when their opinions are ignorant, hateful, childish, harmful to others, and flat out wrong, I'm ganna say so.

you mean when they turn their opinions into action. or are you suggesting that people cannot be offended by other people's opinions?

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.

For once, I agree with you. It seems that the US is sliding slowly but inexorably to its doom. There isn't much we can do to change this saddening status quo, unfortunately, except trying to educate people as best we can. It's quite disheartening to see that so few people favour forcing Muslims to carry identification. With our obliging, accommodating and easygoing culture, we have nothing to protect us from ruthless Muslim extremists. They are biding their time, waiting for an opportune moment to strike, and we don't even know who they are! Disgusting.

are you saying that people cannot hold their own opinions on every issue, and cannot voice them out when invited to do so?

let them air their opinions. just don't vote them into office.

Who said that? The freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence. IF they choose to speak disguising ignorant thoughts we are going to share OUR opinion on what they have to say.

For once, I agree with you. It seems that the US is sliding slowly but inexorably to its doom. There isn't much we can do to change this saddening status quo, unfortunately, except trying to educate people as best we can. It's quite disheartening to see that so few people favour forcing Muslims to carry identification. With our obliging, accommodating and easygoing culture, we have nothing to protect us from ruthless Muslim extremists. They are biding their time, waiting for an opportune moment to strike, and we don't even know who they are! Disgusting.

You do realize that its possible to prevent terrorist attacks without resorting to the allah-caust, right?

39%?

I think I may need to go cry now.

Out of 1000. 1000 out of 300 million isn't really representative.

But I can't believe the people who are willing to tattoo Muslims and send them to death/labor camps are the same people who denounce the Holocaust. It's sickening. If the US really does this, then I will stow myself away on a plane to the UK.

Well, I don't think we can do anything bout the truth, that is, American opinions.

Out of 1000. 1000 out of 300 million isn't really representative.

unless you can demonstrate some sort of sampling bias, then yes, it is.

39%?

I think I may need to go cry now.My feelings precisely. 4 in 10 Americans are unmitigated assholes, according to that poll.

Ever feel ashamed of your fellow citizens?
There is definitely a lot of room for improvement, but I love the whole lot of 'em. Just observing them doing their thing is better than Shakespeare any ol' day.
There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are.
Yep, just another person like you and me.
But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.
:D Yup. It's getting worse, and if it continues, we are screwed.
Are we beyond saving?
Not yet.
Is the US lost?
Yes, but "lost" is a vague word. "Soul-searching" would work better.
Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.
People like you basically, are the first line of defense for liberty. Have you read It Can't Happen Here (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html), by Sinclair Lewis? It's a nice little story. Read it if you haven't. All it takes is a couple of unscrupulous folks and a disaster or two to convince people to surrender their freedom for safety. So what can you do? Remain vigilant, fight tyranny where you see it, and breed more offspring so they can carry on the fight after you become a martyr for liberty. :D

are you saying that people cannot hold their own opinions on every issue, and cannot voice them out when invited to do so?

let them air their opinions. just don't vote them into office.

That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'd be interested in hearing how you pulled that out of my post.

Out of 1000. 1000 out of 300 million isn't really representative.

But I can't believe the people who are willing to tattoo Muslims and send them to death/labor camps are the same people who denounce the Holocaust. It's sickening. If the US really does this, then I will stow myself away on a plane to the UK.

It is more then enough for a standard population SE of 5% Edit CI and CL of 5% that is

Actually you could do it at about 400 for the population of the united states.

For once, I agree with you. It seems that the US is sliding slowly but inexorably to its doom. There isn't much we can do to change this saddening status quo, unfortunately, except trying to educate people as best we can. It's quite disheartening to see that so few people favour forcing Muslims to carry identification. With our obliging, accommodating and easygoing culture, we have nothing to protect us from ruthless Muslim extremists. They are biding their time, waiting for an opportune moment to strike, and we don't even know who they are! Disgusting.

do you even know what the fuck you're talking about? Of course not. Biding their time? So even though we're wide open, as you say, the extremeists are just sitting on their asses because they feel like it? No, you fool. The extremeists are trying to get at us every single fucking day. I personally know a man who works for the department of homeland security. Every day their are plots and potential plots foiled. Every single day there are more government programs out to stop them then you could ever guess. The reason we;re surviving is because we havn't given in to extreme nationalism and racism. You know where those things got Hitler? DEAD and the Nazis HANGED! That's how you and your lot will end up if you get your way, and you'll leave a trail of innocent corpses behind you.

Just be happy in your blissful ignorance. The government can protect us and keep us (including the Muslims) free much more effectively then by wasting recources with racist bullshit like requiring Muslims to wear bullshit armbands. If we but our effort into that, I garentee you we will be hit, because we'll be chasing innocents instead of the real bad guys, and we'll be turning more people against us.

Out of 1000. 1000 out of 300 million isn't really representative.

But I can't believe the people who are willing to tattoo Muslims and send them to death/labor camps are the same people who denounce the Holocaust. It's sickening. If the US really does this, then I will stow myself away on a plane to the UK.

The UK might be too lapdogish to be safe, you're welcome to hop on a plane to New Zealand with me. Well, not the same one, but... you know... :D

For once, I agree with you. It seems that the US is sliding slowly but inexorably to its doom. There isn't much we can do to change this saddening status quo, unfortunately, except trying to educate people as best we can. It's quite disheartening to see that so few people favour forcing Muslims to carry identification. With our obliging, accommodating and easygoing culture, we have nothing to protect us from ruthless Muslim extremists. They are biding their time, waiting for an opportune moment to strike, and we don't even know who they are! Disgusting.

Go away, flame-baiter.

you mean when they turn their opinions into action. or are you suggesting that people cannot be offended by other people's opinions?

people can and are offended by other people's opinions. I'm offended by the opinions of ignorant nationalists. When they turn their opinions into actions, the time for taking offence is over. The time to fight has begun.

Out of 1000. 1000 out of 300 million isn't really representative.

But I can't believe the people who are willing to tattoo Muslims and send them to death/labor camps are the same people who denounce the Holocaust. It's sickening. If the US really does this, then I will stow myself away on a plane to the UK.

You think the UK is any better? Fuck, they grunt when a black footballer (soccer player) gets the ball.

People like you basically, are the first line of defense for liberty. Have you read It Can't Happen Here (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html), by Sinclair Lewis? It's a nice little story. Read it if you haven't. All it takes is a couple of unscrupulous folks and a disaster or two to convince people to surrender their freedom for safety. So what can you do? Remain vigilant, fight tyranny where you see it, and breed more offspring so they can carry on the fight after you become a martyr for liberty. :D

I kinda like you :)

Out of 1000. 1000 out of 300 million isn't really representative.

But I can't believe the people who are willing to tattoo Muslims and send them to death/labor camps are the same people who denounce the Holocaust. It's sickening. If the US really does this, then I will stow myself away on a plane to the UK.

1000 is plenty large enough. Welcome to basic stats. Anything over 30 is fine (as long as there is no sampling error...although, as Upward stated, it should be around 400 or more for the US).

Go away, flame-baiter.

I'm not trying to draw flames. However, I beseech you to look at this from a logical perspective. Who loses out if Muslims are forced to carry special identification? Nobody -- it's not like being forced to carry an ID card will severely impact your mobility and freedom. In fact, you wouldn't even notice it. Who wins if such a measure passes? The US. Everybody will be safer if we can focus more on the potential threats and foil terrorist plots with much more ease. Such a programme is likely to save lives. At what cost, you ask? At no cost whatsoever (except for the production of the ID cards, but they should be cheap to make). I value saving lives more than allowing everybody to walk around without an ID card. In fact, I feel that everybody should be forced to possess a national ID card, but that's another matter, and Muslims are a distinct sub-set of all Americans. Seriously, what's the perceived slight, here?

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.




Its because we were accepting our nation is falling, terrorists hide behind our humans rights laws all the time to escape proper punishment, I blame all those who twisted tolerant laws for the war in Iraq. I mean before 9/11 the terrorists abourd the plane were just citezens in New York.

Yet another reason why I hate my beloved nation :)

1000 is plenty large enough. Welcome to basic stats. Anything over 30 is fine (as long as there is no sampling error).

There's always going to be sampling error.

Seriously, what's the perceived slight, here?
Because such a measure would lead to further suspicion, further demonization, and further persecution of the Muslim population in the US. Making them all carry special ID would only validate people's fears that they are all dangerous and untrustworthy. Let this kind of thing go on unimpeded, and you wind up with a situation such as pre-WWII Germany or the Japanese internment camps on your hands.

But hey, you're obviously not a big fan of history, so you wouldn't know.

terrorists hide behind our humans rights laws all the time

Indeed. The entity into which our country is turning is sickening -- no, outright revolting. Many people care more about the rights of terrorists than they do about the lives of innocent Americans. They would rather a terrorist is able to live comfortably while in prison rather than use coercive interrogation techniques to attempt to extract information from him. They would rather the government not pry into the personal lives of terrorists rather than prevent a terrorist attack from occurring. They are almost as guilty as the terrorists because their actions are what allow the terrorists to succeed in their gruesome goals. To me, those who aid and abet terrorists by passing laws which make it easier for them to slaughter Americans are no better than accomplices.

Yes, the US is the only country in the world that could harbor such despicable views towards another group of people.

Methinks you peoples need to visit Korea/Japan.

Making them all carry special ID would only validate people's fears that they are all dangerous and untrustworthy.

Then make all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, etc., wear special IDs, too. I do not discriminate against Muslims, but I feel it necessary that we protect ourselves from the fanatics who seek to butcher us. We need to keep our eye on them.

I am not surprised at all. I'm just terrified. If any of you have AOL and went on the AOL forum for that news story about the Congressman who's being sworn in on the Koran, you'd see it was filled with posts saying "All Muslims need to be shipped out of the US!!!" and "Fuck that guy!" and "The Koran says to kill all Americans!!!!" and other sort of ignorant nonesence. when I voted, 60% of people were against allowing him to be sworn in on the Koran (dispite the Constitution having a provision for congressmen to be sworn in on the holy book of their choice).

And there it is in a nutshell. Ignorance, hate. Germany wasn't unique in the least. It's disgusting.I went to the same site. I posted a couple of times, but the number of nut jobs on that site was overwhlming. For every sensible post there were about four nut cases saying crap like "If he doesn't want to swear on the Bible he shouldn't be allowed to take office." And one guy said he didn't want to hear any crap about freedom of religion because our Christian founding fathers only meant freedom for Christian denominations.

I conducted my own informal poll around town and ended up with every person besides my family was against the guy being able to swear on the Koran. :headbang:

You think the UK is any better? Fuck, they grunt when a black footballer (soccer player) gets the ball.

At least they're not trying this crap.

Maybe I should consider NZ or Canada instead...

I'm not trying to draw flames. However, I beseech you to look at this from a logical perspective. Who loses out if Muslims are forced to carry special identification? Nobody -- it's not like being forced to carry an ID card will severely impact your mobility and freedom. In fact, you wouldn't even notice it. Who wins if such a measure passes? The US. Everybody will be safer if we can focus more on the potential threats and foil terrorist plots with much more ease. Such a programme is likely to save lives. At what cost, you ask? At no cost whatsoever (except for the production of the ID cards, but they should be cheap to make). I value saving lives more than allowing everybody to walk around without an ID card. In fact, I feel that everybody should be forced to possess a national ID card, but that's another matter, and Muslims are a distinct sub-set of all Americans. Seriously, what's the perceived slight, here?
A Muslim can easily pretend he is not a Muslim. If he is of colour, he can simply state he is Hindu or some other obscure Eastern Religion, and women can easily substitute the hijab if need be.

Thus, those who have illicit purposes for being in the US, will easily try and blend in, thus circumventing the purpose of having Muslims carry cards. Only those with nothing to hide will participate.

Those who want to break the law will not follow it.

As Islam *is* a religion, one can easily shun their religion or conceal it, as it isn't ethnic (though this is questionable in the case of Judaism, which has become an ethnicity in own right in a subtle way).

I'm not trying to draw flames. However, I beseech you to look at this from a logical perspective. Who loses out if Muslims are forced to carry special identification? Nobody -- it's not like being forced to carry an ID card will severely impact your mobility and freedom. In fact, you wouldn't even notice it. Who wins if such a measure passes? The US. Everybody will be safer if we can focus more on the potential threats and foil terrorist plots with much more ease. Such a programme is likely to save lives. At what cost, you ask? At no cost whatsoever (except for the production of the ID cards, but they should be cheap to make). I value saving lives more than allowing everybody to walk around without an ID card. In fact, I feel that everybody should be forced to possess a national ID card, but that's another matter, and Muslims are a distinct sub-set of all Americans. Seriously, what's the perceived slight, here?

I think we should give white people special ID cards, and just white people alone. After all, they are the largest terror group in America. With the likes of Tim Mcveigh, Eric Rudolph, William Pierce, KKK, Aryan groups, and I can go on and on. So in order to save lives, we must treat white people as second class citizens, give them special IDs, and carry out routine checks into their private life. Im sure it wouldn't bother anyone at all.

Such a programme is likely to save lives.

No, no it isn't. Our current, non-labeling law enforcement practices save lives. They do every day.

The labeling of Muslims' licences would give no gain, and we would lose wasted recources, not to meantion the outrage of free-thinking Americans who would fight such racist and bullshit measures.

The labeling of a group dehumanizes them, and makes discrimination and violence more likely. You label Muslims and they cease to be Americans, or people, and become Muslims to the ignorant populence.

There's always going to be sampling error.

no significant sampling error. That better?

I'm not trying to draw flames. However, I beseech you to look at this from a logical perspective. Who loses out if Muslims are forced to carry special identification? Nobody -- it's not like being forced to carry an ID card will severely impact your mobility and freedom. In fact, you wouldn't even notice it. Who wins if such a measure passes? The US. Everybody will be safer if we can focus more on the potential threats and foil terrorist plots with much more ease. Such a programme is likely to save lives. At what cost, you ask? At no cost whatsoever (except for the production of the ID cards, but they should be cheap to make). I value saving lives more than allowing everybody to walk around without an ID card. In fact, I feel that everybody should be forced to possess a national ID card, but that's another matter, and Muslims are a distinct sub-set of all Americans. Seriously, what's the perceived slight, here?

You're a flame baiter, and I'm asking you nicely to stop it.

You're a flame baiter, and I'm asking you nicely to stop it.

I'm not baiting flames, and I am asking you nicely to see reason and honestly argue instead of being obdurate in your views. Why are you posting a topic which you don't care to debate?

Its because we were accepting our nation is falling, terrorists hide behind our humans rights laws all the time to escape proper punishment, I blame all those who twisted tolerant laws for the war in Iraq. I mean before 9/11 the terrorists abourd the plane were just citezens in New York.


That's just not true.

Indeed. The entity into which our country is turning is sickening -- no, outright revolting. Many people care more about the rights of terrorists than they do about the lives of innocent Americans. They would rather a terrorist is able to live comfortably while in prison rather than use coercive interrogation techniques to attempt to extract information from him. They would rather the government not pry into the personal lives of terrorists rather than prevent a terrorist attack from occurring. They are almost as guilty as the terrorists because their actions are what allow the terrorists to succeed in their gruesome goals. To me, those who aid and abet terrorists by passing laws which make it easier for them to slaughter Americans are no better than accomplices.

Not one of those thing you said is true. Your stupidity boggles the mind.

The labeling of a group dehumanizes them, and makes discrimination and violence more likely. You label Muslims and they cease to be Americans, or people, and become Muslims to the ignorant populence.

As I previously stated, we could also label Christians. What we really need is a national ID card to be issued to everybody, and a law forcing people to have it on them at all times.

no significant sampling error. That better?

Much better. :)

And come on. This doesn't just happen in the US either. Other nations have the same problem when it comes to people different than themselves. I hate to say it but it is human nature to dislike something different than ourselves. Just some of us are better at accepting differences than others.

I think we should give white people special ID cards, and just white people alone. After all, they are the largest terror group in America. With the likes of Tim Mcveigh, Eric Rudolph, William Pierce, KKK, Aryan groups, and I can go on and on. So in order to save lives, we must treat white people as second class citizens, give them special IDs, and carry out routine checks into their private life. Im sure it wouldn't bother anyone at all.
Better yet, we should make all men carry ID, as history has shown that men are far more dangerous then women. They have committed acts of terror, wage war and led to the destruction of the planet...

Women would be except of course, as women terrorists do not exist.



I love being pretending to be stupid.

Not one of those thing you said is true. Your stupidity boggles the mind.

I'm sure your mind is quite "boggled" enough as it is.

I'm not baiting flames, and I am asking you nicely to see reason and honestly argue instead of being obdurate in your views. Why are you posting a topic which you don't care to debate?

It is completely illogical to select people based off a religion (I can claim to be muslim, jewish, christian, hindi, et. al. and you cannot prove anything)
Additionally, the majority of Muslims are not violent towards the US. Particularly those who are US citizens.
We have the right to privacy.
We have the right to our religion without government sponsored dicrimination.

hows that?

I'm sure your mind is quite "boggled" enough as it is.

Not wise to pick a fight with a mod.

Not wise to pick a fight with a mod.
That wasn't a mod.

Katghanistan is a mod, not Katzistanza.

Not wise to pick a fight with a mod.

He's not a mod, is he?

I'm not baiting flames, and I am asking you nicely to see reason and honestly argue instead of being obdurate in your views. Why are you posting a topic which you don't care to debate?

You don't ever want to actually debate. You have a history of this, and your first response on this thread was practically begging for people to rise up and call you names. That's flame baiting. You're a dishonest and false poster, with absolutely no credibility in these forums. You're a joke, and everyone knows it. But this time, I'm not laughing.

We have the right to privacy.
We have the right to our religion without government sponsored dicrimination.

Please cite the relevant laws. We have no right to privacy, nor is the government prevented from classifying people based on religion.

Women would be except of course, as women terrorists do not exist.



You ever seen a woman drive?

*runs out of the thread*

Bloody hell.

. They would rather a terrorist is able to live comfortably while in prison rather than use coercive interrogation techniques to attempt to extract information from him.
I would rather get reliable information.

They would rather the government not pry into the personal lives of terrorists rather than prevent a terrorist attack from occurring.

We would rather not let the gov't kidnap and torture anyone who they label terrorist. We do not need a big brother system to prevent terrorist attacks, we are already preventing terrorist attacks

They are almost as guilty as the terrorists because their actions are what allow the terrorists to succeed in their gruesome goals. To me, those who aid and abet terrorists by passing laws which make it easier for them to slaughter Americans are no better than accomplices.

We would rather not give up all of our liberty for a false sense of security.

I'm sure your mind is quite "boggled" enough as it is.

Attack my spelling all you want, but you still havn't responded to my post a couple of pages back. About how terrorists are not "biding their time" and about how the US is not weak and vunerable. We are effectivly defending ourselves every single day. Labeling all Muslims would only waste recources, create hate, and turn Americans against America, not to mention quite alot of the rest of the world. And if we fallow this racist line of reasoning to it's conclusion, it will be the utter destruction of America, just as it was the utter destruction of Nazi Germany.

Or Zilam's post about how there are many, many more White Christian terrorists in the US who are successfully comitting terrorism right now.

Please cite the relevant laws. We have no right to privacy, nor is the government prevented from classifying people based on religion.The 4th, 5th and 9th Amendments provide a right to privacy.

You're...dishonest and false...with absolutely no credibility...a joke.

And you're claiming that I am the troll after slandering me so? I have set forth my reasons. It is up to you to consider whether you want to seriously debate me or just disregard my conflicting viewpoint. The lack of honest debate on the critical issues is a much graver problem in this country than trying to protect Americans by issuing ID cards. If we can't be expected to debate on this forum, how do you expect a healthy debate to be fostered in America, generally?

Tired over here.

I kinda like you :)
You aren't too bad yourself...:fluffle:
Then make all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, etc., wear special IDs, too. I do not discriminate against Muslims, but I feel it necessary that we protect ourselves from the fanatics who seek to butcher us. We need to keep our eye on them.
Unless you plan to paper-cut the person trying to end your life, identification papers serve to identify you, not protect you.
I think we should give white people special ID cards, and just white people alone. After all, they are the largest terror group in America. With the likes of Tim Mcveigh, Eric Rudolph, William Pierce, KKK, Aryan groups, and I can go on and on. So in order to save lives, we must treat white people as second class citizens, give them special IDs, and carry out routine checks into their private life. Im sure it wouldn't bother anyone at all.
We don't need to. We have driver licenses and wage slavery to handle them.

Please cite the relevant laws. We have no right to privacy, nor is the government prevented from classifying people based on religion.The Supreme Court disagrees.

Not wise to pick a fight with a mod.

True.

But more importantly, it's not wise to flamebait, regardless of whether one's opponent is a Mod.

And you're claiming that I am the troll after slandering me so? I have set forth my reasons. It is up to you to consider whether you want to seriously debate me or just disregard my conflicting viewpoint. The lack of honest debate on the critical issues is a much graver problem in this country than trying to protect Americans by issuing ID cards. If we can't be expected to debate on this forum, how do you expect a healthy debate to be fostered in America, generally?No, I said you were a flame-baiter. There's a difference. And for it to be slander, it has to be untrue.

Please cite the relevant laws. We have no right to privacy, nor is the government prevented from classifying people based on religion.
Privacy Act of 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_Act_of_1974)

The Privacy Act of 1974, Public Law No. 93-579, 88 Stat. 1897 (Dec. 31, 1974), codified in part at 5 U.S.C. § 552a, was passed by the United States Congress following revelations of the abuse of privacy during the administration of President Richard Nixon.

Looking up the second one now.

Please cite the relevant laws. We have no right to privacy, nor is the government prevented from classifying people based on religion.

amendments 1, 4, 5, and 9.

freedom of religion would mean that all religions are treated the same. If muslims need to carry around an ID card, all religious people do.

Privacy is a right, despite not being implicitly stated. It is what Roe v Wade was decided on, and is therefore law.

The 4th

The fourth amendment prevents the government from illegally searching someone's property or person and from seizing their property illegally.

5th

The fifth amendment states that no person can be punished for a crime they committed without first being found guilty of it. It also says some other things (double jeopardy, for example).

9th

The ninth simply says that the people may have rights which are explicitly stated in the Bill of Rights.

That wasn't a mod.

Katghanistan is a mod, not Katzistanza.

lol, nice.

He's not a mod, is he?

I am indeed not a mod. It would say so below my name if I was.

But I think we should spread the impression that I am, it'd be funny :)

You ever seen a woman drive?

*runs out of the thread*

Why don't women drive?

There's no road between the bedroom and kitchen :)

No, I said you were a flame-baiter. There's a difference. And for it to be slander, it has to be untrue.

Whatever, you can argue semantics until the cows come home. The point is that you flamed me numerous times in that post and had the hypocritical audacity to further claim that I was the troll, when I have shown you nothing but respect.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.People tell me I'm an idiot when I claim to see signs that the US could go the direction Nazi Germany could go or when I denounce someone as a tag-along.

If muslims need to carry around an ID card, all religious people do.

Indeed, and I think that a national ID card needs to be issued to every person, and their religion and other pertinent information stored in a government database.

Whatever, you can argue semantics until the cows come home. The point is that you flamed me numerous times in that post and had the hypocritical audacity to further claim that I was the troll, when I have shown you nothing but respect.The funny thing is, you're still a troll, whether the Nazz pointing it out is hypocritical or not.

Supreme Court's decisions in Griswold vs. Connecticut and Eisenstadt vs. Baird, two cases that established a right of privacy for married and unmarried couples to use contraception.

-- 1973 Supreme Court decision in Roe vs. Wade.

A quick review of some high-profile legal disputes from 2004 demonstrates the importance and omnipresence of privacy. Consider the following:

-- Privacy is one of the central interests asserted today by the government in denying the press access to the images and videos of flag-draped coffins of U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq as they return to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware.

-- In another situation involving images of the dead, the U.S. Supreme Court in March denied the Freedom of Information Act request of California attorney Allan Favish for death-scene photographs of Vince Foster, deputy counsel to former President Bill Clinton. Favish didn't believe multiple government investigations concluding Foster's death in a park outside of Washington was a suicide. He thought the photographs would prove otherwise. The court found that the privacy interests of Foster's relatives trumped Favish's right to the photographs.

-- The privacy interest of the woman in the sexual assault case against Kobe Bryant was found to be compelling enough by Colorado's high court in July to justify a gag order on the press, prohibiting it from reporting truthful facts it had lawfully obtained about her sexual history. It also was the interest asserted by many media outlets in their decisions not to publish her name.

-- The privacy interests of journalists in keeping secret the names of confidential sources from the reach of government subpoenas are now at stake. A special prosecutor in Washington, for instance, is now investigating which government officials violated a federal law by leaking the name of covert CIA operative Valerie Plame to reporters in July of 2003. Without privacy in the source-reporter relationship, the flow of information to the public may dry up.

The fourth amendment prevents the government from illegally searching someone's property or person and from seizing their property illegally.
Which means that individuals have privacy in their homes.



The fifth amendment states that no person can be punished for a crime they committed without first being found guilty of it. It also says some other things (double jeopardy, for example).It also says you can't be forced to incriminate yourself, which is privacy of thought and action.



The ninth simply says that the people may have rights which are explicitly stated in the Bill of Rights.Which is the catch-all which includes, among others things, the right to privacy. There's also the first, which someone else has covered.

Now, are you going to continue with this dishonesty?

The fourth amendment prevents the government from illegally searching someone's property or person and from seizing their property illegally.The right to not be searched is privacy.



The fifth amendment states that no person can be punished for a crime they committed without first being found guilty of it. It also says some other things (double jeopardy, for example).It allows for private property without government interferance.



The ninth simply says that the people may have rights which are explicitly stated in the Bill of Rights.And that, combined with the other two have been interpreted in US case law as the right to privacy.

I am indeed not a mod. It would say so below my name if I was.

But I think we should spread the impression that I am, it'd be funny :)



I think impersonating a Mod is a bannable offense, I would argue against spreading that impression ;)

NO comment on "Privacy Act of 1974", which directly addresses the issue of privacy?

Indeed, and I think that a national ID card needs to be issued to every person, and their religion and other pertinent information stored in a government database.

How the fuck is religion at all pertinent or important for anything?

Privacy Act of 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_Act_of_1974)

The Privacy Act mandates that each government agency has in place an administrative and physical security system to prevent the unauthorized release of personal records. I do not see how that entitles everybody to a certain degree of privacy; it's the same as the privacy waiver you get when you sign up for a newsletter, but a product, etc. The company tells you that it will not share the information you have provided with anyone else.

Whatever, you can argue semantics until the cows come home. The point is that you flamed me numerous times in that post and had the hypocritical audacity to further claim that I was the troll, when I have shown you nothing but respect.If you honestly think I flamed you, you have a recourse--go tell the mods. I think my recent forumban is proof that they have no reservations about sending me away if I've flamed someone.

The funny thing is, you're still a troll, whether the Nazz pointing it out is hypocritical or not.

I am honestly debating here. I have striven to respond to every post directed at me. I don't find the insinuation that I am a troll humorous, and I wish people would just drop it and stick to the topic at hand. Thank you very much.

If you honestly think I flamed you, you have a recourse--go tell the mods.

I wish you no ill will. I simply want an honest debate.

How the fuck is religion at all pertinent or important for anything?

Because all anti-American terrorists, so far, have been Muslim. We need to monitor all Muslims to see if they are terrorists or have connections to terrorists. It might save lives, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It's a win-neutral proposition.

Because all anti-American terrorists, so far, have been Muslim. We need to monitor all Muslims to see if they are terrorists or have connections to terrorists. It might save lives, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It's a win-neutral proposition.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh...no.

Because all anti-American terrorists, so far, have been Muslim. We need to monitor all Muslims to see if they are terrorists or have connections to terrorists. It might save lives, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It's a win-neutral proposition.That is false. Timothy McVeigh was not Muslim. Neither was the guy responsible for the terror attack on the Atlanta Olympics.

I'm not trying to draw flames.

Yeah, actually you are.

Who do you think you're fooling?

You're nothing but a troll. And if not, if you really believe in your nazi-esque, pro-slavery, constant bullshit, then it's too bad you were ever shat out of your mum's pussy.

Because all anti-American terrorists, so far, have been Muslim. We need to monitor all Muslims to see if they are terrorists or have connections to terrorists. It might save lives, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It's a win-neutral proposition.

Bullshit. Tim Mcveigh. Ted Kaczynski. Right there, your theory has failed.

And, as I said before, religion is easy to change or lie about. It isn't important, reliable, or any such thing.

Because all anti-American terrorists, so far, have been Muslim. We need to monitor all Muslims to see if they are terrorists or have connections to terrorists. It might save lives, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It's a win-neutral proposition.

Timothy Mcveigh was a Muslim?


If you think that muslims will in no way be negatively impacted by having to wear a Scarlet Letter, you are being self-deceptive

Which means that individuals have privacy in their homes.

Not really. It says that the police cannot barge in and start rifling through their possessions. However, they could install a camera outside their house to survey the scene inside.

It also says you can't be forced to incriminate yourself, which is privacy of thought and action.

Oh, alright. I wouldn't normally think of that as "privacy," though.

Which is the catch-all which includes, among others things, the right to privacy.

No, it does not say that the people have the right to privacy. It simply says that even though the Bill of Rights does not provide for a right to privacy, such a right might still exist. However, no such right does exist.

That is false. Timothy McVeigh was not Muslim. Neither was the guy responsible for the terror attack on the Atlanta Olympics.
Eric Rudolph. In fact, he was a hardcore Christian who was wanted in connection with abortion clinic bombings.

Timothy Mcveigh was a Muslim?


If you think that muslims will in no way be negatively impacted by having to wear a Scarlet Letter, you are being self-deceptiveI don't think he really minds non-Christians being negatively impacted.

it's too bad you were ever shat out of your mum's pussy.

I find that comment extremely vile, disgusting, and inflammatory. I would urge you to retract it. I also despise the insinuation that I am a troll when you can post such utter filth. People like you make me ashamed to be an American.

No, it does not say that the people have the right to privacy. It simply says that even though the Bill of Rights does not provide for a right to privacy, such a right might still exist. However, no such right does exist.


And what exactly prohibits a right to freedom?

I find that comment extremely vile, disgusting, and inflammatory. I would urge you to retract it. I also despise the insinuation that I am a troll when you can post such utter filth. People like you make me ashamed to be an American.

Your posturing is more transparent than saran wrap.

Bullshit. Tim Mcveigh. Ted Kaczynski. Right there, your theory has failed.

You're right; I'll revise my post to say that the "large majority" of all anti-American terrorists are Muslims.

religion is easy to change or lie about.

I assume that lying about religion would be a federal offense.

Your posturing is more transparent than saran wrap.

You don't find his comment grotesque? Your evident bias is more transparent than air.

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.
I know that you seem to be inclined to dislike your countrymen, but I think that it's OK. It's a minority figure at the height of a wave of Islamophobia. And you can always depend on the unreliability of opinion polling.

I find that comment extremely vile, disgusting, and inflammatory. I would urge you to retract it. I also despise the insinuation that I am a troll when you can post such utter filth. People like you make me ashamed to be an American.

I found it disturbing as well, but then again it was slighty humorous;)as it was directed to you

as it was directed to you

That's mean. I have feelings, too, you know! :)

I assume that lying about religion would be a federal offense.

How on earth could such a charge ever be proven?

Ever feel ashamed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061201/lf_nm/usa_muslims_fear_dc_1) of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing, and for making Britney Spears a multi-millionaire.



Except that Klein didn't actually believe what he'd suggested. Here's how he finished the show:

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.

Quote:
Those in agreement are not a fringe minority: A Gallup poll this summer of more than 1,000 Americans showed that 39 percent were in favor of requiring Muslims in the United States, including American citizens, to carry special identification.

Roughly a quarter of those polled said they would not want to live next door to a Muslim and a third thought that Muslims in the United States sympathized with al Qaeda, the extremist group behind the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.


Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.

Gallup is notoriously wrong. Beyond that, in a population of 300M people, 1000 is hardly statistically significant. Let's see, 390 people out of 1000 means we know that for sure; 0.00039% of America thinks like that.

Whew, better start freaking out!

I find that comment extremely vile, disgusting, and inflammatory. I would urge you to retract it. I also despise the insinuation that I am a troll when you can post such utter filth. People like you make me ashamed to be an American.

Says the man who advocates slavery and rape.

I assume that lying about religion would be a federal offense.

Its a federal offense to lie now? Are you saying we will be summoning all muslims to court or something?


You have yet to address the conversion part.

How on earth could such a charge ever be proven?

Obviously if they have dark skin they are teh ebil Muslims. Duh.

According to http://www.constitution.org/powright.htm These are some of the implied rights in the Constitution. Included are the amendments that the implied rights come from. Remember, it specifically says that our rights are not limited to those explicitly listed in the Constitution.


Natural Rights:
The classic definition of "natural rights" are "life, liberty, and property", but these need to be expanded somewhat. They are rights of "personhood", not "citizenship". These rights are not all equally basic, but form a hierarchy of derivation, with those listed later being generally derived from those listed earlier.

Personal Security (Life):
(1) Not to be killed.

(2) Not to be injured or abused.

Personal Liberty:
(3) To move freely.

(4) To assemble peaceably.

(5) To keep and bear arms.[18]

(6) To assemble in an independent well-disciplined[13] militia.

(7) To communicate with the world.

(8) To express or publish one's opinions or those of others.

(9) To practice one's religion.

(10) To be secure in one's person, house, papers, vehicle[14], and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures.

(11) To enjoy privacy in all matters in which the rights of others are not violated.[7]

You don't find his comment grotesque? Your evident bias is more transparent than air.

I find your belief of being the judge, jury and executioner when it comes to billions of people on this earth much more appalling than a crude mental image of you being born.

I find that comment extremely vile, disgusting, and inflammatory.

What a coincidence, I find pretty much every one of your pro-slavery, anti-minority, ethnic bias, ultranationalist, nazi-esque garbage posts to be vile, disgusting and inflammatory too!

But I keep forgetting how sensitive you are... it's amazing how long you've lasted without breaking down in tears, given your obvious and extreme sensitivity to evil, mean posters such as myself.

I also despise the insinuation that I am a troll when you can post such utter filth.

What I post has absolutely nothing to do with whether you are a troll or not.

You're a troll. I'm "filthy."

People like you make me ashamed to be an American.

If you're so ashamed, why don't you leave the country?

Or, you could cry about it.

Du hast sieg heil?

Gallup is notoriously wrong. Beyond that, in a population of 300M people, 1000 is hardly statistically significant. Let's see, 390 people out of 1000 means we know that for sure; 0.00039% of America thinks like that.

Whew, better start freaking out!Not really. If the samples were taken appropriately, 1000 is a very significant number.

And people call me crazy when I say that there could be a genocide against muslims coming.
No, just ignorant of history. In Germany social prejudices against Jews were nearly always much more pronounced than they are against Muslims now, even when Nazis were not in power.

Its a federal offense to lie now? Are you saying we will be summoning all muslims to court or something?

It is a federal offense to lie on your tax receipt, for example. It would similarly be illegal if you lied on your national ID card by falsifying your religion.

You have yet to address the conversion part.

It would not be hard to switch the religion tag of a particular citizen in a database of US citizens.

Its a federal offense to lie now? Are you saying we will be summoning all muslims to court or something?


You have yet to address the conversion part.

Well lying under oath is Purgery and thus a federal offense if it is done at the federal level.

That's mean. I have feelings, too, you know! :)

Haha. I think in order to have feelings, you must first have a heart, good sir. :p

Stuff.

You know, a moderator has already warned us about bickering with each other. I don't think I'll respond to your obviously flame-baiting posts in the future, and I'd appreciate it if you refrained from posting such trash.

It would similarly be illegal if you lied on your national ID card by falsifying your religion.

"Falsifying your religion." It's not like a registration plate or phone number. Officials can't just come round to your house, peer down your throat and say "Yeah, we've got a Muslim here".
How would it be proven?

Haha. I think in order to have feelings, you must first have a heart, good sir. :p

My brain is the only heart I'll ever need. Misguided emotions help nobody, yet logical conclusions are a much more potent force for good.

How would it be proven?

Perhaps by the religious institutions which you frequent, the prayers you utter, etc.

Well lying under oath is Purgery and thus a federal offense if it is done at the federal level.And lying to a federal investigator is a federal offense as well. It's also considered obstruction of justice.

You know, a moderator has already warned us about bickering with each other. I don't think I'll respond to your obviously flame-baiting posts in the future, and I'd appreciate it if you refrained from posting such trash.
But you just replied to him. :p

Perhaps by the religious institutions which you frequent, the prayers you utter, etc.

And why should the government care what religion you are?

And lying to a federal investigator is a federal offense as well. It's also considered obstruction of justice.

True. So very true.

You know, a moderator has already warned us about bickering with each other.

I'm pretty sure a moderator also warned you about trolling before.

Hasn't seemed to stop you.

I don't think I'll respond to your obviously flame-baiting posts in the future,

Good! Maybe you'll *actually* ignore me this time instead of just *saying* you will. That would help our relations a great deal. I hate dishonesty.

But you just replied to him. :p

I replied to him to tell him that I wouldn't reply to him any more. Kind of ironic, I guess. :rolleyes:

But you just replied to him. :p

Well, yeah, he had to get in the bit about what I say is "trash." He really likes the "i'm rubber you're glue" approach since he knows that pisses people off by sheer annoyance power.

My brain is the only heart I'll ever need. Misguided emotions help nobody, yet logical conclusions are a much more potent force for good.Amoral is immoral.

Du hast sieg heil?

Nein, Ich erlernte nie wie. Mittel zu einem Ende konnten, wenn er kann.

You could all put MTAE on your ignore lists, or you could simply stop responding to him. It's not like he's being honest in this debate, after all, and it's not like we don't know what he's going to do.

Unless you plan to paper-cut the person trying to end your life, identification papers serve to identify you, not protect you.


Yes, makes it easier to identify our bodies.

Perhaps by the religious institutions which you frequent, the prayers you utter, etc.

And if you don't frequent any religious institutions or utter prayers in public?

Nein, Ich erlernte nie wie. Mittel zu einem Ende konnten, wenn er kann.
*glares at suspicious persons* Ausweis bitte. :D

Perhaps by the religious institutions which you frequent, the prayers you utter, etc.

So we'll have FBI investigators trailing every suspected Muslim around, making sure they don't utter any Qu'ran verses, or visit any Mosques?
Stupid, stupid, stupid!

So we'll have FBI investigators trailing every suspected Muslim around, making sure they don't utter any Qu'ran verses, or visit any Mosques?
Stupid, stupid, stupid!
Nah, we're using t3h electronic way. HUMINT assets are stretched too far as it is.

Perhaps by the religious institutions which you frequent, the prayers you utter, etc.

Ha. I'm a professional choral singer. Houses of worship are very, very, very common performance venues for professional choral singers. In the past couple of years, I have "frequented" at least three Catholic churches, one Anglican church, one Presbyterian church, two Baptist churches, one Unitarian church, one Reform synagogue, and one Renewal synagogue. I have sung (and spoken) prayers to Christ, to the Virgin Mary, to Adonai Elohim, and to an ancient Celtic god named Amergin. Please tell me what my religion is. :)

Nah, we're using t3h electronic way. HUMINT assets are stretched too far as it is.

"Put down the Qu'ran. You have ten seconds to comply."

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.

We are lost. I recently read that less than 15% of US citizens have passports. Considering our attitude to foreign policy, it speaks for itself.

"Put down the Qu'ran. You have ten seconds to comply."

"Jesus, save me!"

You could all put MTAE on your ignore lists, or you could simply stop responding to him.

True. But "all" will not do that, and therefore one or two of us doing it will not accomplish a thing.

We are lost. I recently read that less than 15% of US citizens have passports. Considering our attitude to foreign policy, it speaks for itself.

Uh...there's a reason why only 15 percent of Americans have passports. First off, it's not a requirement to have a passport to go to several countries like Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas. Secondly, the United States is almost by itself as big as Europe. Thirdly, international travel options are not as cheap or available as in Europe.

The whole 15 percent statistic is so fucking overplayed, it's retarded.

Uh...there's a reason why only 15 percent of Americans have passports. First off, it's not a requirement to have a passport to go to several countries like Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas. Secondly, the United States is almost by itself as big as Europe. Thirdly, international travel options are not as cheap or available as in Europe.

The whole 15 percent statistic is so fucking overplayed, it's retarded.

UHH!!! you are going to need to a passport for both Mexico and Canada

True. But "all" will not do that, and therefore one or two of us doing it will not accomplish a thing."Oh no?" said the Rabbi as he chucked another stranded starfish into the ocean. "I made a difference to that one."

UHH!!! you are going to need to a passport for both Mexico and Canada

Not until January.

UHH!!! you are going to need to a passport for both Mexico and Canada
Been to Mexico. Didn't need a passport.

EDIT: Oh, going to.

Been to Mexico. Didn't need a passport.

You will soon.

"Oh no?" said the Rabbi as he chucked another stranded starfish into the ocean. "I made a difference to that one."

Heh, heh.

But, it just doesn't work. The theory being that trolls feed on attention. So as long as anyone gives them that attention, it doesn't matter if they don't get it from everybody.

It's sorta like telemarketing. Sure, I hang up on them, but they won't go out of business because they only need a 1 to 2 percent response rate to be successful.

Been to Mexico. Didn't need a passport.

EDIT: Oh, going to.

Been to Mexico. Did.

Uh...there's a reason why only 15 percent of Americans have passports. First off, it's not a requirement to have a passport to go to several countries like Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas. Secondly, the United States is almost by itself as big as Europe. Thirdly, international travel options are not as cheap or available as in Europe.

The whole 15 percent statistic is so fucking overplayed, it's retarded.

That would be fine if you didn't think you were the world's policeman (or you were a dictatorship). But you do, and you vote on shit about other countries which you have never been to -- or even heard of.

Then you invade, and then when it gets difficult you want to just drop it like a hot potato. Maybe if you all had spent some time in other countries in the 50s, Vietnam wouldn't have gone so pear shaped.

A while ago, some holocaust survivor said he was moving BACK to Germany, fearing what is going on here.

I'm not trying to draw flames. However, I beseech you to look at this from a logical perspective. Who loses out if Muslims are forced to carry special identification? Nobody -- it's not like being forced to carry an ID card will severely impact your mobility and freedom. In fact, you wouldn't even notice it. Who wins if such a measure passes? The US. Everybody will be safer if we can focus more on the potential threats and foil terrorist plots with much more ease. Such a programme is likely to save lives. At what cost, you ask? At no cost whatsoever (except for the production of the ID cards, but they should be cheap to make). I value saving lives more than allowing everybody to walk around without an ID card. In fact, I feel that everybody should be forced to possess a national ID card, but that's another matter, and Muslims are a distinct sub-set of all Americans. Seriously, what's the perceived slight, here?

All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others. :rolleyes:

Uh...there's a reason why only 15 percent of Americans have passports. First off, it's not a requirement to have a passport to go to several countries like Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas.

It will be shortly.

That would be fine if you didn't think you were the world's policeman (or you were a dictatorship). But you do, and you vote on shit about other countries which you have never been to -- or even heard of.

Then you invade, and then when it gets difficult you want to just drop it like a hot potato. Maybe if you all had spent some time in other countries in the 50s, Vietnam wouldn't have gone so pear shaped.

WTF are you talking about with this "YOU" shit? The only reason other countries have higher rates of passport ownership (which is only an assumption because you haven't posted other countries rates) is because European countries are much smaller. If you live in the UK and want to vacation in a tropical paradise, you have to get a passport to go to Phuket or Ibiza. Americans didn't need passports to get to Cancun or Cabo San Lucas, and for next Spring Break they will, I can guarantee a huge upswing in passport applications.

Second off, if you want to judge me as some sort of moronic nitwit when it comes to foreign affairs, piss off. I've won 3 Geography Bees in one of the biggest schools in the state of Minnesota and I've represented a university which placed 10th in the nation in College Bowl with Geography as my speciality. But damn, you're one tough dude behind the guise of an IP.

True. But "all" will not do that, and therefore one or two of us doing it will not accomplish a thing.

So? You don't like reading what he says, then fucking put him on your ignore list already, and stop whining about him. Whether or not anyone else does so is irrelevant. "If no one else does then I won't either!" Your kidding me right?

All you people can do is attack his opinions and beliefs and call him names. If you cannot fucking debate his decidedly fascist beliefs, then ignore and be done with it.

I expect name calling out of my 6 year old niece, but you people are supposedly adults.:rolleyes:

Such a programme is likely to save lives.

Interesting spelling of program there, sparky. Are you one of them day-um furriners and not a Real American (tm)?

It will be shortly.
For Canada, Mexico, and the Bahamas? Not likely. Land borders like a sieve for the first two.

The Bahamas make their money off of being a tax haven and tourist trap. They don't have much of a vested interest in checking ID right now.

Not that partying in Cancun, briefly visiting Niagara Falls, and taking a vacation in the Bahamas give you much of an idea of what's going on in the rest of the world.

Because all anti-American terrorists, so far, have been Muslim. We need to monitor all Muslims to see if they are terrorists or have connections to terrorists. It might save lives, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It's a win-neutral proposition.

It does hurt someone. It hurts decent people who go about minding their business and trying to live their lives without having to deal with institutionalized prejudice and carrying or wearing what amounts to a target for ignoramuses.

So? You don't like reading what he says, then fucking put him on your ignore list already, and stop whining about him.

I'm not "whining."

Whether or not anyone else does so is irrelevant. "If no one else does then I won't either!" Your kidding me right?

Har yes, I was making a post to joke around with some guy I didn't know was gonna reply and whose existence I could care less about.

No. The point of ignoring to "not feed a [suspected] troll" is made irrelevant unless everyone does it. I don't ignore people just because "I don't like" them, ergo I'm not putting him on ignore.

All you people can do is attack his opinions and beliefs and call him names. If you cannot fucking debate his decidedly fascist beliefs, then ignore and be done with it.

I can debate and have before. Unfortunately, the fact that he is a troll means he can't because in all probability, he couldn't care less about what he says because the main point is to get attention by fucking with people.

I expect name calling out of my 6 year old niece, but you people are supposedly adults.:rolleyes:

Name calling? Oh yeah, calling someone a troll is "name calling." I guess your implication here that I'm a six year old is not?

Well, you know, if you don't like what me or "us people" have to say, you can ignore me too.

It is a federal offense to lie on your tax receipt.

What's a tax receipt?

That would be fine if you didn't think you were the world's policeman (or you were a dictatorship). But you do, and you vote on shit about other countries which you have never been to -- or even heard of.

Then you invade, and then when it gets difficult you want to just drop it like a hot potato. Maybe if you all had spent some time in other countries in the 50s, Vietnam wouldn't have gone so pear shaped.

Would you honestly rather we didn't vote on it? Personally, I agree that most muslims should be deported from the US, and a thousand times more so in Europe. I think most foreigners in the US should be deported, and that we let too many people in.

If someone honestly loves America, and wants to come here legally, and integrate and be an American, I'm honestly not against it even if they aren't white. But anyone who wishes the country harm or demands special treatment should get the boot right away, we don't owe them squat. Cut off foreign aid too, we don't need to finance brutal dictatorships.

Uh...there's a reason why only 15 percent of Americans have passports. First off, it's not a requirement to have a passport to go to several countries like Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas. Secondly, the United States is almost by itself as big as Europe. Thirdly, international travel options are not as cheap or available as in Europe.

The whole 15 percent statistic is so fucking overplayed, it's retarded.

Actually, you will need a passport to go to these places now.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html

Wow, I don't know whether to be sad or impressed that I am in the minority in the US.

And it is not THAT expensive to travel -- my parents go to Europe twice a year, spending 2-4 weeks there each time. They ain't rich neither; they's retired teachers.

Would you honestly rather we didn't vote on it? Personally, I agree that most muslims should be deported from the US, and a thousand times more so in Europe. I think most foreigners in the US should be deported, and that we let too many people in.

If someone honestly loves America, and wants to come here legally, and integrate and be an American, I'm honestly not against it even if they aren't white. But anyone who wishes the country harm or demands special treatment should get the boot right away, we don't owe them squat. Cut off foreign aid too, we don't need to finance brutal dictatorships.

Ah, yes. If they want to come to America legally, they're welcome - unless they're Muslim.

I love this new-age bigotry where "I'm not racist, I have black friends" works but it's OK to persecute and discriminate against an entire world religion.

Frankly, I think people like YOU should be booted out of the country. You make us look bad.

Not really. It says that the police cannot barge in and start rifling through their possessions. However, they could install a camera outside their house to survey the scene inside.No they can't. There was a supreme court case, iirc, that states that things seen through windows of a house are NOT permitted as evidence, and would be considered an invasion of privacy.



Oh, alright. I wouldn't normally think of that as "privacy," though.religion is primarily personal thoughts.


No, it does not say that the people have the right to privacy. It simply says that even though the Bill of Rights does not provide for a right to privacy, such a right might still exist. However, no such right does exist.Nor dies the right for your vote to count equally to all other votes, the right to bodily integrity, the right to travel. That doesn't mean they aren't there. If we are such a "free" country,then the laws should reflect that. If I can't rely on my right to privacy, then we are not free.

You're right; I'll revise my post to say that the "large majority" of all anti-American terrorists are Muslims.
Inrecent years atleast


I assume that lying about religion would be a federal offense
And how do you prove this? I say I am a Catholic. I belong to the Catholic church, have done all the rituals. However, my true opinions are actually Jewish. How do you prove that I am lying? How do you prove that I am not a Catholic, but am really Jewish?
It cannot be proven.

Your method of identifying people based off religion to determine if they are against America is like going after a sore throat when the person has mono. You only look at one aspect if the problem that is, in reality, one of the least important.

For Canada, Mexico, and the Bahamas? Not likely. Land borders like a sieve for the first two.

Maybe you should read up on the news. They may not need them to go, but they will need them to get back in.

I think most foreigners in the US should be deported, and that we let too many people in.

What tribe are you from, Sitting Bull?

What tribe are you from, Sitting Bull?

haha...I like you.

For once, I agree with you. It seems that the US is sliding slowly but inexorably to its doom. There isn't much we can do to change this saddening status quo, unfortunately, except trying to educate people as best we can. It's quite disheartening to see that so few people favour forcing Muslims to carry identification. With our obliging, accommodating and easygoing culture, we have nothing to protect us from ruthless Muslim extremists. They are biding their time, waiting for an opportune moment to strike, and we don't even know who they are! Disgusting.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslims in America that have never harmed another human being.
The OP points out that this is exactly how the Jewish people in Hitler's Germany were treated and look how that wonderful slice of history turned out!
Are you preparing to "turn on the showers and fire the ovens" for our fellow American citizens that are exercising their Constitutionally guaranteed right to worship as they please?
You disgust me!

To answer the OP,

I would be ashamed of the callers in question, but you should realize that radio talk show calls are screened so it is likely a very small number of people who feel that way. The call screener/producer's job would make sure those calls get on the air.

I'm not saying it's some stupid conspiracy. Just pointing out that call screeners often like putting the extremists on the air.

Ever feel ashamed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061201/lf_nm/usa_muslims_fear_dc_1) of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing, and for making Britney Spears a multi-millionaire.


We're at war. americans are floundering around trying to find ways to avoid another 9-11. Of course some people are going to be harboring prejudices agaisnt Muslims.

None of those 19 guys looked like Opie taylor, you know.

None of those 19 guys looked like Opie taylor, you know.

Hu-yuck! Somes dem had dem funny towel hats and looked brown.

Please cite the relevant laws. We have no right to privacy, nor is the government prevented from classifying people based on religion.


Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This Amendment guarantees your privacy and right to live without being harassed by the government.


Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Muslims have the right to be Muslims without any restrictions.

You continue to paint all Muslims with the same brush.
They are not criminals!
Just as the people that are being held unjustly in Guantanamo Bay are not criminals!
In the United States of America you are not a criminal until found guilty by a jury!

You seem to be ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslims in America that have never harmed another human being.
The OP points out that this is exactly how the Jewish people in Hitler's Germany were treated and look how that wonderful slice of history turned out!
Are you preparing to "turn on the showers and fire the ovens" for our fellow American citizens that are exercising their Constitutionally guaranteed right to worship as they please?
You disgust me!

I'm new here, but isn't the Internet rule that the first one to raise Nazism loses the debate?

To killinginthename -- Radical Islam declared war on the US. Every country in wartime takes steps to identify potential atagonistic elements in their borders. I n WWII it was Japanese internment. I'm not saying that was right, but America faces a larger problem than many countries becanse a lot of different people have come here.

While the ideas put up by the radio hosts are clearly ridiculous, at what point is some effort to track the radical muslims in our midst appropriate? After one US city is nuked? Two? Will that be war then?

I haven't seen data on US Muslims but a Sunday Times poll in England right after 9-11 showed that 40 percent of the British Muslims surveyed felt Bin Laden's war against the US was "justified".

That speaks for itself as to the concerns some countries should have about their Muslim population, no matter what the pacifists who want to see bunnies and kittens in every analysis think...

You're right; I'll revise my post to say that the "large majority" of all anti-American terrorists are Muslims.



I assume that lying about religion would be a federal offense.
And exactly how do we decide that someone is lying?
I am a Rastafarian.
Now I am a Buddhist.
I have heard good things about Deism (after all it was good enough for Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine!) so I am going to give that a try.
For this moment in time I have decided to be a Hindu.
Decided I like to eat cows so now I am a Christian.
Being a Christian for that last few seconds did not feel quite right so I have decided to be an Animist.
That is not working for me so I have decided I am going to start my own religion and worship you MTAE!
That religion made me feel dirty so I think I am going to go back to being Agnostic.

I just went thru several religious conversions in the time it took me to type up this post.
Who are you to say that they were not all heartfelt and true conversions of faith?
Who decides if you are lying about your religion?
I suppose we will just have to torture the truth out of those that someone decides is lying about their religion :rolleyes:

I'm new here, but isn't the Internet rule that the first one to raise Nazism loses the debate?

Considering the talk show host in the OP told the listeners who agreed with them that they were no better than the Germans who insisted Jews should have to carry special ID....


....nope.

I'm new here, but isn't the Internet rule that the first one to raise Nazism loses the debate?

To killinginthename -- Radical Islam declared war on the US. Every country in wartime takes steps to identify potential atagonistic elements in their borders. I n WWII it was Japanese internment. I'm not saying that was right, but America faces a larger problem than many countries becanse a lot of different people have come here.

While the ideas put up by the radio hosts are clearly ridiculous, at what point is some effort to track the radical muslims in our midst appropriate? After one US city is nuked? Two? Will that be war then?

I haven't seen data on US Muslims but a Sunday Times poll in England right after 9-11 showed that 40 percent of the British Muslims surveyed felt Bin Laden's war against the US was "justified".

That speaks for itself as to the concerns some countries should have about their Muslim population, no matter what the pacifists who want to see bunnies and kittens in every analysis think...

I have no problem with the government finding and arresting terrorists.
If there is proof that someone intends to commit a terrorist attack then by all means arrest them, prosecute them and jail them for life.

The Japanese internment camps were a travesty against justice in this country that punished American citizens that harmed no one because of their ancestry!

I would like to know your ancestry?
Because I am sure we can probably dig up something in your family history that we can indict you for!

You "conservatives" seem to think that anyone that values the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the rule of law is a "liberal".
If respecting the ideals that this great nation was founded upon and the laws that keep us free means that I am a "liberal" that I am proud to be one.
Waving the flag and paying lip service to the ideals that it stands for is the worse kind of "patriotism"!

To answer the OP,

I would be ashamed of the callers in question, but you should realize that radio talk show calls are screened so it is likely a very small number of people who feel that way. The call screener/producer's job would make sure those calls get on the air.

I'm not saying it's some stupid conspiracy. Just pointing out that call screeners often like putting the extremists on the air.

Very good point. For one that listens to the radio alot I can say most programs out there do this very thing. It is just a ratings ploy. For one I have never met anyone that says we should do what some of those callers suggest. I talk politics with alot of people on a regular basis.

Well, it depends. If you're using a Jesuit Qu'ran, it says "Peace out my homie G brothers! Now let's smoke some Hashish!" But the king james version says "Death to america!"

Geez, why doesn't anyone know this stuff?

Second off, if you want to judge me as some sort of moronic nitwit when it comes to foreign affairs, piss off. I've won 3 Geography Bees in one of the biggest schools in the state of Minnesota and I've represented a university which placed 10th in the nation in College Bowl with Geography as my speciality. But damn, you're one tough dude behind the guise of an IP.

In point of fact, this is exactly the problem.

Ever feel ashamed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061201/lf_nm/usa_muslims_fear_dc_1) of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing, and for making Britney Spears a multi-millionaire.



Except that Klein didn't actually believe what he'd suggested. Here's how he finished the show:

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.
This is human nature, people. We're primates, with brains that cannot truly care about more than a certain amount of people. Beyond that number(which is disputed; the famed David Wong places it at 150 for his monkeysphere explanation) we really can't care about anyone else. We see them as faceless 2-D A.I.s we interact with more than people just like ourselves. Therefore, it's only natural that bigotry--even of this level--occurs.

It is infact UNNATURAL to be tolorant. It has to be taught and instilled in us. Even those of us that are tolorant have periods of intolorance of one kind or another all the time, whether we admit it or not. They're usually for inane reasons--I hate Duracell batteries and Machintosh computers with the burning intensity of a thousand white hot suns--but it exists.

That said, it should not be allowed to come to this in society anymore. We can get around it through proper education at an early age. I just wish more parents would do so.

you know, it's funny.

Take Michael Richards' rant at the comedy club where he was shouting Racial Epitaths... would it have been fine if he ended it with a "you know, all kidding aside... " and saying that the rant was just part of his act? hell no. he would still be lambasted for his remarks and he would still be apologizing for it today.

so now we have a radio announcer, who states his posistion in a serious tone and recieves many callers who both reprimand him for his remarks as well as hail him for it and he says...

"I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said,

For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people's bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver's license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It's beyond disgusting.

Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen ... We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous."

so if he compares those that agree with his "rant" to Germans allowing Concentration camps, then why isn't anyone comparining his "rant" and suggestions (something that people were responding to) to Hitler's rallying cry for such changes? he's the one presenting those views for others to feed off of, he didn't ask them for their opinions, he gave his.

is it because he turned around and scolded the viewers after recieving all those calls? could it have been because the radio owners or managers called him and told him to fix it or he's fired? (thus making his rant likening people to WWII Germans more of a "Covering My Ass" than what he truely feels.)

I say Jerry Klein is just as much at fault as all those he exposed.

The Privacy Act mandates that each government agency has in place an administrative and physical security system to prevent the unauthorized release of personal records. I do not see how that entitles everybody to a certain degree of privacy; it's the same as the privacy waiver you get when you sign up for a newsletter, but a product, etc. The company tells you that it will not share the information you have provided with anyone else.

Way to sidestep all the people who pointed out that the Supreme Court disagrees with you, and their judgements are the law of the land.

I am honestly debating here. I have striven to respond to every post directed at me.

No, only the bullshit ones. You ignore the ones you have no valid responce for.

Because all anti-American terrorists, so far, have been Muslim. We need to monitor all Muslims to see if they are terrorists or have connections to terrorists. It might save lives, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It's a win-neutral proposition.

Nope.


You're right; I'll revise my post to say that the "large majority" of all anti-American terrorists are Muslims.

Still, nope. There has been one instance of Muslim terrorism against the US in the past decade. There have been dozens of instance of Christain anti-US terrorism in the same amount of time. Bank roberies, firebombing, murders, both of civilians and of police, all carried out by one of dozens, maby even hundreds of christan white supremicist or radical right-wing militias.





You ignore time and time again how i point out that a labeling system would in fact be detrimental to the US.

you know, it's funny.

Take Michael Richards' rant at the comedy club where he was shouting Racial Epitaths... would it have been fine if he ended it with a "you know, all kidding aside... " and saying that the rant was just part of his act? hell no. he would still be lambasted for his remarks and he would still be apologizing for it today.

so now we have a radio announcer, who states his posistion in a serious tone and recieves many callers who both reprimand him for his remarks as well as hail him for it and he says...



so if he compares those that agree with his "rant" to Germans allowing Concentration camps, then why isn't anyone comparining his "rant" and suggestions (something that people were responding to) to Hitler's rallying cry for such changes? he's the one presenting those views for others to feed off of, he didn't ask them for their opinions, he gave his.

is it because he turned around and scolded the viewers after recieving all those calls? could it have been because the radio owners or managers called him and told him to fix it or he's fired? (thus making his rant likening people to WWII Germans more of a "Covering My Ass" than what he truely feels.)

I say Jerry Klein is just as much at fault as all those he exposed.

It's called satire. Just as George Orwell isn't a totalitarian.

My feelings precisely. 4 in 10 Americans are unmitigated assholes, according to that poll.
Only 4? Ask them a few more questions, I'm sure we can rack up another half dozen.

It's called satire. Just as George Orwell isn't a totalitarian.

So just because you only hear him say "I wasn't serious" at the end of his hour long show, that makes it satire?

He's still guilty of fanning the flames of bigotry, and keeping such sentiments alive in this country in my book.

To the OP

Metonymy(n): The use of a term closely related to the original object that is able to signify the whole.

This magnification on a negative population is a poor standard for the rest of the US.
Even if there are a lot of less than savory characters around.

But I guess its true that a rotten apple spoils the barrel.

Interesting spelling of program there, sparky. Are you one of them day-um furriners and not a Real American (tm)?
Given the context, I think the word he was searching for was "pogrom"... :rolleyes:

Its nice to see america slowly turning into an Anti-Muslim country having regular mass genocides....

So just because you only hear him say "I wasn't serious" at the end of his hour long show, that makes it satire?

He's still guilty of fanning the flames of bigotry, and keeping such sentiments alive in this country in my book.Then you need to get a life. Exposing bigotry is a far cry from fanning the flames of it. The way I see it, Klein did a public service by putting the bigotry of the public out there for everyone to see it, so that people like me who were convinced that such bigotry was a tiny minority of the population were apparently wrong. I had more faith in my fellow Americans. Guess I was just a sucker.

And what does it say about you, that you actually blame the person who exposed the behavior? How is that different from blaming the rape victim for tempting the rapist?

Then you need to get a life. Exposing bigotry is a far cry from fanning the flames of it. The way I see it, Klein did a public service by putting the bigotry of the public out there for everyone to see it, so that people like me who were convinced that such bigotry was a tiny minority of the population were apparently wrong. I had more faith in my fellow Americans. Guess I was just a sucker.

And what does it say about you, that you actually blame the person who exposed the behavior? How is that different from blaming the rape victim for tempting the rapist?
Everyone (but you apparently) knows the bigotry is out there. He just goaded people saying it out loud. and guess what, WHAT GOOD DID IT DO? Think those people who called for tattoos and concentration camps are ashamed for their actions? Oh hell No! Bigots cannot be shamed into changing their ways. Klein just used a senstive topic to put himself up on a moral high ground to do nothing more than grab Fame.

He could've used Gays, Homophobes, Blacks, Fundies or any other group and the results would still be the same.

He presented a false pretense to secure the confidence of his listeners. what makes him different than a Con Artist that makes a pensioner confident enough to give him all their savings for a song and dance?

and if you think that blaming someone for fanning bigotry is the same as accusing a rape victim for tempting a rapist, then you need to follow your own advice and get a life. Actually, considering that you admit that you "were convinced that such bigotry was a tiny minority of the population" you need to take off your rose colored glasses and look around while finding that life.

How many posters here have to take a jab at America or Americans even if the thread has nothing to do with either?

How may Religious bashing threads are there out there?

How may political bashing threads are out there?

Look at how easily cries of extreme action are being called for on this forum alone? (Get rid of all Religions) (Make everyone swear on the Bible only) (lets get all the Right/Left/Neo Cons/Lefties... etc... and toss em out of power) (Kill all the [insert group])

I live in a state that has no racial majority and I see that here and everywhere in the World. Sorry to burst your shiney little bubble Nazz, but what Klein did was use a hot topic to make himself feel and look morally superior at other's expense, Nothing more, Nothing Less.

No, the U.S. is pretty much gone. Any hope of getting over the sickness called 'American' is gone, not only because of the Nazi-like logic of most of them, but loads of other things. This new twist only confirms it all.
Sorry.

Everyone (but you apparently) knows the bigotry is out there. He just goaded people saying it out loud. and guess what, WHAT GOOD DID IT DO? Think those people who called for tattoos and concentration camps are ashamed for their actions? Oh hell No! Bigots cannot be shamed into changing their ways. Klein just used a senstive topic to put himself up on a moral high ground to do nothing more than grab Fame.
He exposed the fact that the hate is more widespread than a lot of us realized. And yes, I do believe that exposing hatred causes it to retreat--I know from experience that people hold hateful opinions almost unconsciously, and only retreat from them once they've been shamed. It comes from growing up in a part of the country where bigotry against blacks is expected--even people who think they're not racist can be subconsciously, and remain so until they're confronted with it and realize what they've been doing.


and if you think that blaming someone for fanning bigotry is the same as accusing a rape victim for tempting a rapist, then you need to follow your own advice and get a life. Actually, considering that you admit that you "were convinced that such bigotry was a tiny minority of the population" you need to take off your rose colored glasses and look around while finding that life.What's the matter? Did that sting a little? It's a fair comparison, and you know it. You're engaging in blaming the victim here, plain and simple.

How many posters here have to take a jab at America or Americans even if the thread has nothing to do with either?

How may Religious bashing threads are there out there?

How may political bashing threads are out there?And that has what, exactly, to do with my comment? Nothing.

Look at how easily cries of extreme action are being called for on this forum alone? (Get rid of all Religions) (Make everyone swear on the Bible only) (lets get all the Right/Left/Neo Cons/Lefties... etc... and toss em out of power) (Kill all the [insert group])

I live in a state that has no racial majority and I see that here and everywhere in the World. Sorry to burst your shiney little bubble Nazz, but what Klein did was use a hot topic to make himself feel and look morally superior at other's expense, Nothing more, Nothing Less.

Guess what? He is morally superior to all those fucks who suggested that we ought to deport/kill/incarcerate people for their religious beliefs. Got a problem with that? I'm morally superior to those fucks too, and I've got no problem screaming it to the heights. And hopefully, thousands, if not millions more will join me. Including you.

He exposed the fact that the hate is more widespread than a lot of us realized. And yes, I do believe that exposing hatred causes it to retreat--I know from experience that people hold hateful opinions almost unconsciously, and only retreat from them once they've been shamed. It comes from growing up in a part of the country where bigotry against blacks is expected--even people who think they're not racist can be subconsciously, and remain so until they're confronted with it and realize what they've been doing. nice to see the retreating bigiotry and hatred from groups like Phelps, KKK, Black Panthers, Neo Nazi's, Radical [Insert group] yep, they're all going away... :rolleyes:


What's the matter? Did that sting a little? It's a fair comparison, and you know it. You're engaging in blaming the victim here, plain and simple.and you just admitted that it's not the Con Artists fault, so they should never be arrested, but the victims should be held responsible. nice thinking there. I guess we see more of your hate and bigotry.

And that has what, exactly, to do with my comment? Nothing.LOL except shows you that those examples of "hate and bigotry" that you didn't see is really right infront of your nose, right here on these forums as well as other sites on the Internet. Or are you convinced that those sites are only hosted by other countries?


Guess what? He is morally superior to all those fucks who suggested that we ought to deport/kill/incarcerate people for their religious beliefs. Got a problem with that? I'm morally superior to those fucks too, and I've got no problem screaming it to the heights. And hopefully, thousands, if not millions more will join me. Including you.

nice example of your Bigotry... oh, that's right. we are basing Morals on YOUR definition and rules... like you hate when Christians do to others. and not leaving it open to each individual to have their own code of MORALS and the right to live their lives within the confines of the law as well as the Constitution. After all, they only gave their opinions and they are not acting on them... or are you now advocating Thought Policing as well?

So now that your bigotry is exposed, I expect you would be reteating in shame to shrink your Bigotry against those who were raised differently than you. if not, you just proven your first paragraph a lie.

Let me let you in on a little secret, Junii--not all bigotry is created equal. Advocating the extermination or segregation of a group of people because of their religious beliefs or skin color or ethnic identity not nearly the same as saying that bigots ought to be publicly shamed, and if you can't see the difference there, there's precious little I can do to help you. I stand by my statement--I am morally superior to those people who claimed it would be a good idea to tattoo Muslims in the US to set them apart from everyone else.

To take a stand against intolerance is not intolerant. It is a moral necessity.

Where do you stand?

Let me let you in on a little secret, Junii--not all bigotry is created equal. Advocating the extermination or segregation of a group of people because of their religious beliefs or skin color or ethnic identity not nearly the same as saying that bigots ought to be publicly shamed, and if you can't see the difference there, there's precious little I can do to help you. I stand by my statement--I am morally superior to those people who claimed it would be a good idea to tattoo Muslims in the US to set them apart from everyone else.

Where do you stand?:rolleyes:

So some bigotry is OK to be held in your viewpoint?

pray tell me, which ones are small enough to be allowed to be held and voiced aloud without fear of reprussions?
Sexual orientation
Financial Lifestyles
Physical Ability
Religion (including lack of)
Respect for Laws as well as obediance to laws
People with different opinions and viewpoints
Dietary habits
Geographical location
Ethnic origins
Fertility
Family Stability (including having kids vs not having kids)
Mental Ability
Health condition
Dependancies (including Lack thereof)
Education Status (including what level of education obtained)

Perhaps you mean degrees of Bigotry? So am I to censor myself from saying racial slurs? Am I limited to only Imaginng that hot Chick/Hunk in only t-shirts and shorts?
which opinions and viewpoints can NEVER be held even if never acted upon?

and who has the right to say what degree or level of bigotry is or isn't allowed to be held (as long as it's not acted upon in a detrimental fashion.) You? Me? the mods? the President? who?

and who will be apart of this thought police force to make sure such opinions and bigotry are within acceptable levels?

I am honestly debating here. I have striven to respond to every post directed at me. I don't find the insinuation that I am a troll humorous, and I wish people would just drop it and stick to the topic at hand. Thank you very much.

You've never responded to the Farmy Dome! WE WANT ANSWERS!

And how do you prove this? I say I am a Catholic. I belong to the Catholic church, have done all the rituals. However, my true opinions are actually Jewish. How do you prove that I am lying? How do you prove that I am not a Catholic, but am really Jewish?
It cannot be proven.

Easy, ask you to eat some pork crackling.

Ironic that some Americans still condemn Germany for being anti-Jewish in the past while America is partially anti-Islam in the present.

:rolleyes:

So some bigotry is OK to be held in your viewpoint?

pray tell me, which ones are small enough to be allowed to be held and voiced aloud without fear of reprussions?
Sexual orientation
Financial Lifestyles
Physical Ability
Religion (including lack of)
Respect for Laws as well as obediance to laws
People with different opinions and viewpoints
Dietary habits
Geographical location
Ethnic origins
Fertility
Family Stability (including having kids vs not having kids)
Mental Ability
Health condition
Dependancies (including Lack thereof)
Education Status (including what level of education obtained)

Perhaps you mean degrees of Bigotry? So am I to censor myself from saying racial slurs? Am I limited to only Imaginng that hot Chick/Hunk in only t-shirts and shorts?
which opinions and viewpoints can NEVER be held even if never acted upon?

and who has the right to say what degree or level of bigotry is or isn't allowed to be held (as long as it's not acted upon in a detrimental fashion.) You? Me? the mods? the President? who?

and who will be apart of this thought police force to make sure such opinions and bigotry are within acceptable levels?
Oh please. You cannot honestly say that saying "******" is the same as saying "all muslims must tattoo their forheads so we can identify them". Are they both abhorant? Yes. Is one worse than the other? With out question.

Every person has the right to their opinion. Fine. I have every right to call them a horrible person for some of their opinions. No one is arguing that they cannot hold those opinions. What is being argued is that they are poor excuses for human beings.
Easy, ask you to eat some pork crackling.

Jews can eat pork. Not all keep kosher.;)

:rolleyes:

So some bigotry is OK to be held in your viewpoint?

pray tell me, which ones are small enough to be allowed to be held and voiced aloud without fear of reprussions?
Sexual orientation
Financial Lifestyles
Physical Ability
Religion (including lack of)
Respect for Laws as well as obediance to laws
People with different opinions and viewpoints
Dietary habits
Geographical location
Ethnic origins
Fertility
Family Stability (including having kids vs not having kids)
Mental Ability
Health condition
Dependancies (including Lack thereof)
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Perhaps you mean degrees of Bigotry? So am I to censor myself from saying racial slurs? Am I limited to only Imaginng that hot Chick/Hunk in only t-shirts and shorts?
which opinions and viewpoints can NEVER be held even if never acted upon?

and who has the right to say what degree or level of bigotry is or isn't allowed to be held (as long as it's not acted upon in a detrimental fashion.) You? Me? the mods? the President? who?

and who will be apart of this thought police force to make sure such opinions and bigotry are within acceptable levels?
I'm sorry, perhaps I have missed something. Are you angry at The Nazz for him stating that people who suggest that Muslims should be labeled like Jews in Nazi Germany are immoral? Because that's slightly ludicrous. There is nothing wrong with being 'bigoted' (and in this case it ceases to be bigotry anyway) against bigots themselves. Would you consider yourself to be a 'better person' than Adolf Hitler, for example?
And I imagine most people would censor themselves from saying racial slurs...

Oh please. You cannot honestly say that saying "******" is the same as saying "all muslims must tattoo their forheads so we can identify them". Are they both abhorant? Yes. Is one worse than the other? With out question. so you are in favor of a Thought Police then? and where is the line drawn? remember, there is a HUGE difference between saying "all [insert group] must be [insert action]" and actually doing it.

remember, you're backing a man who was the one who suggested that all muslims be tattoed, it's only because he said "I was kidding" at the end of his HOUR LONG program that you "exscuse" him. Did he give his callers a chance to say "yeah, me too?" hell no. so people label him a "hero" while others that he tricked are labeled bigots?

When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band, the phone lines jammed instantly.

HE suggested it, HE planted that thought in his listeners mind, HE was the instigator. now if he asked, "so what do you think should be done on this war on terror" and those idiots suggested the tattooing, then I will not be arguing here. but KLEIN suggested the action and only at the END of his program did he get on his moral high horse and berate everyone who agreed with HIS SUGGESTION.

Every person has the right to their opinion. Fine. I have every right to call them a horrible person for some of their opinions. No one is arguing that they cannot hold those opinions. What is being argued is that they are poor excuses for human beings.that's fine. I've nothing against Callilng them bigots...

Now my question is, why is no one also calling Klein a bigot on his part of fanning the flames then exscusing what he did by saying "Nah, I'm joking, you guys should be ashamed of yourself." if callers called back saying "we were joshing along with you" would you believe them as people believed Klein? if all those callers who agreed to Kleins suggestion is a Bigot, then Klein has to also be labeled a bigot for suggesting it and seriously carrying on with that idea for the majority of his show.

And that is what I call Klein... A Bigot, infact he's worse because he used his power on the radio to do nothing more than to grab fame and to put himself on his moral high horse.

I'm sorry, perhaps I have missed something. Are you angry at The Nazz for him stating that people who suggest that Muslims should be labeled like Jews in Nazi Germany are immoral? Because that's slightly ludicrous. There is nothing wrong with being 'bigoted' (and in this case it ceases to be bigotry anyway) against bigots themselves. Would you consider yourself to be a 'better person' than Adolf Hitler, for example?
And I imagine most people would censor themselves from saying racial slurs...

no, I'm angry at Nazz (and others) for being against those that verbally agree with the idea of tattooing and labeling muslims (to the point of saying they are beneith him for holding opinions that he doesn't agree with) but calling the person who originally suggested it a hero (and thus elevating him morally) and thus free from the responsiblity for flaming such bigotry.

then nazz also suggested that Some bigotry is acceptable, so I challange him to define what is acceptable or not.

And bigotry is bigotry. what differance if you call someone who says that they should tattoo a group of persons or calling someone a ****** faggot? both show bigotry and both can lead to illegal actions.
the fact that he (and others by their posts) are willing to hold people who verbally support the idea of tattoos beneith them for simply stating their belief and opinions AS LONG AS THEY DON'T ACT UPON THEM and yet call the person who put that idea into their heads a hero.

Only 4? Ask them a few more questions, I'm sure we can rack up another half dozen.

And ask those same questions to others from around the world. I'm sure we can prove that the whole world is full of assholes.

Well, I guess it's another chip in the theory that there was something unique about Germany that allowed the Holocaust to happen.

I'm not really surprised, but I am disappointed.

That, or there are way too Americans of German lineage. :p

Its nice to see america slowly turning into an Anti-Muslim country having regular mass genocides....

Its nice to see that you can't see that most of these people make up a minority of this country. Every country has its asshats.

Everyone (but you apparently) knows the bigotry is out there. He just goaded people saying it out loud. and guess what, WHAT GOOD DID IT DO? Think those people who called for tattoos and concentration camps are ashamed for their actions? Oh hell No! Bigots cannot be shamed into changing their ways. Klein just used a senstive topic to put himself up on a moral high ground to do nothing more than grab Fame.

He could've used Gays, Homophobes, Blacks, Fundies or any other group and the results would still be the same.

He presented a false pretense to secure the confidence of his listeners. what makes him different than a Con Artist that makes a pensioner confident enough to give him all their savings for a song and dance?

and if you think that blaming someone for fanning bigotry is the same as accusing a rape victim for tempting a rapist, then you need to follow your own advice and get a life. Actually, considering that you admit that you "were convinced that such bigotry was a tiny minority of the population" you need to take off your rose colored glasses and look around while finding that life.

How many posters here have to take a jab at America or Americans even if the thread has nothing to do with either?

How may Religious bashing threads are there out there?

How may political bashing threads are out there?

Look at how easily cries of extreme action are being called for on this forum alone? (Get rid of all Religions) (Make everyone swear on the Bible only) (lets get all the Right/Left/Neo Cons/Lefties... etc... and toss em out of power) (Kill all the [insert group])

I live in a state that has no racial majority and I see that here and everywhere in the World. Sorry to burst your shiney little bubble Nazz, but what Klein did was use a hot topic to make himself feel and look morally superior at other's expense, Nothing more, Nothing Less.

I never seen The Nazz get so owned in my life. Well done JuNii.

*hands you a cookie*

Ironic that some Americans still condemn Germany for being anti-Jewish in the past while America is partially anti-Islam in the present.

You mean some americans are anti-islam.

You mean some americans are anti-islam.

Or, more specifically, anti-extremist. I hate Nazis, but there's nothing wrong with Germans. Likewise, I have nothing against Saudis or Yemenis, but I hate Jihadists.

I can't exactly say that this is shocking, but it certainly is regrettable. All the more reason to want to get out of this damn country. Not only are the tattooing/armbands illegal (to my knowledge, anyway), it is ethically and morally wrong. The radio show was a hoax and all, but it still scares and amazes me to wonder how could anyone could suggest, even in a farse, to do such things to another human being. =/

Would you honestly rather we didn't vote on it? Personally, I agree that most muslims should be deported from the US, and a thousand times more so in Europe. I think most foreigners in the US should be deported, and that we let too many people in.
Do you remember what statue has a plaque with this written on?
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Next rhetorical question. Do you know what a pyrrhic victory is? It is when the cost of victory is so high, the victory is not worth it.

The declaration of independence and the bill of rights were a beacon to the world. They stated that every human being was worthwhile. If the USA, to win the war on terrorism, throws away many of it's liberties and rights, and makes some humans (Muslims) second calls citizens, the cost of victory will be too high.

I also think that any further actions that will dehumanise the muslims further, will increase, not decrease the threat anyway.

If someone honestly loves America, and wants to come here legally, and integrate and be an American, I'm honestly not against it even if they aren't white. But anyone who wishes the country harm or demands special treatment should get the boot right away, we don't owe them squat.
So all Muslims wish the country harm? Here's a frightening statistics for you. (it holds no fear for me, as I am a rational human being, who understands that all people can't be judged on the actions of a few) There are 6 to 7 million Muslims in the USA. If they all wanted to do you harm, your country would be gone already.

Cut off foreign aid too, we don't need to finance brutal dictatorships.
Just leave that to the CIA to do in secret?

You do realize that its possible to prevent terrorist attacks without resorting to the allah-caust, right?

I do think he was being sarcastic/satirical.

Amazing, I know.

Out of 1000. 1000 out of 300 million isn't really representative.

But I can't believe the people who are willing to tattoo Muslims and send them to death/labor camps are the same people who denounce the Holocaust. It's sickening. If the US really does this, then I will stow myself away on a plane to the UK.

Save me a seat, will you?

And change destinations. The UK will follow the US as it has for the past 100 something years...

Go to Canada. They don't war there.

no, I'm angry at Nazz (and others) for being against those that verbally agree with the idea of tattooing and labeling muslims (to the point of saying they are beneith him for holding opinions that he doesn't agree with) but calling the person who originally suggested it a hero (and thus elevating him morally) and thus free from the responsiblity for flaming such bigotry.

then nazz also suggested that Some bigotry is acceptable, so I challange him to define what is acceptable or not.

And bigotry is bigotry. what differance if you call someone who says that they should tattoo a group of persons or calling someone a ****** faggot? both show bigotry and both can lead to illegal actions.
the fact that he (and others by their posts) are willing to hold people who verbally support the idea of tattoos beneith them for simply stating their belief and opinions AS LONG AS THEY DON'T ACT UPON THEM and yet call the person who put that idea into their heads a hero.
*cough*doublestandard*cough*
So... all right. It's fine for bigots to be bigoted, if they don't act upon their opinions, since it's 'just their opinion' but it's not all right for people to say that the bigots are assholes, even if it's 'just their opinion'. Gotcha. This person is not 'putting that idea into their heads'. It's blatantly obvious to all sensible people it's a ridiculous idea. The people who agree with him must have some deep-rooted bigotry within them already. Just out of curiosity, what do you think of Borat?

Oh yes, and...
both show bigotry and both can lead to illegal actions
AS LONG AS THEY DON'T ACT ON [their beliefs and opinions]
:confused:
If they don't act on their bigotry, obviously it can't lead to illegal actions...

Then make all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, etc., wear special IDs, too. I do not discriminate against Muslims, but I feel it necessary that we protect ourselves from the fanatics who seek to butcher us. We need to keep our eye on them.

Two words: photo ID (AKA driver's license)

No bodily markings. Too permanent...

You think the UK is any better? Fuck, they grunt when a black footballer (soccer player) gets the ball.

Eh? I thought that was one of the things we didn't do anymore.

I find that comment extremely vile, disgusting, and inflammatory. I would urge you to retract it. I also despise the insinuation that I am a troll when you can post such utter filth. People like you make me ashamed to be an American.

Oh, Means, but you already ARE ashamed to be an American.

You despise most of the rights your founding fathers gave you.

You support measures that are pretty much equal to the ones your ancestors fought in World War 2.

You support the same discrimination your country congratulated MLK with a holiday for standing up against.

You hate the same civil rights that make the US different from Soviet Russia, Iran, or North Korea.

You despise the same free speech that your forefathers support.

You were ashamed to be an American way before ever coming here. In fact, you're not an American. You so far have shown to hate everything America stands for. I can't think of anyone more anti-American than you.

Ever feel ashamed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061201/lf_nm/usa_muslims_fear_dc_1) of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing, and for making Britney Spears a multi-millionaire.



Except that Klein didn't actually believe what he'd suggested. Here's how he finished the show:

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.

It's not lost. But it's close. Why don't people question what the authorities are doing?

The authorities aren't always right. Remember that and Vietnam, my fellow citizens.

(disappears in a cloud of smoke)

and who will be apart of this thought police force to make sure such opinions and bigotry are within acceptable levels?
Look back through this thread and find the place where I've suggested that there should be any restriction on allowing people to hold these points of view, where I've called for legalrepercussions against thoughts and ideas. Can't find them? Gee, I wonder why. Because I've never fucking suggested them.

But you bet your ass I think that as a society we ought to fight ignorance with education, and when people make suggestions like the ones Klein did as part of his hoax and that some callers agreed with, then as members of a tolerant and lulticultural society we should certainly stand up and say that we will not sacrifice a small segment of our population in order to appease the frenzy held by the ignorant.

Now quit trying to turn my words into something they're not, Junii. I'm tired of your shit.

I never seen The Nazz get so owned in my life. Well done JuNii.

*hands you a cookie*
The fact that you think I got owned just further proves to me that I have indeed won the argument.

Oh, God! (whichever one wants to listen)Have we come to this, suggesting fascist rules for people from other countries! This is how we would slowly come crashing down! Really, first arm bands, thhn deportation, then internment camps, then, the inevitable, concentration camps. Is our society drunk on racism and intolerance?

Oh, Means, but you already ARE ashamed to be an American.

You despise most of the rights your founding fathers gave you.

You support measures that are pretty much equal to the ones your ancestors fought in World War 2.

You support the same discrimination your country congratulated MLK with a holiday for standing up against.

You hate the same civil rights that make the US different from Soviet Russia, Iran, or North Korea.

You despise the same free speech that your forefathers support.

You were ashamed to be an American way before ever coming here. In fact, you're not an American. You so far have shown to hate everything America stands for. I can't think of anyone more anti-American than you.

Thank you for writing the post I've been meaning to write for some time. Well stated.

Oh, Means, but you already ARE ashamed to be an American.

You despise most of the rights your founding fathers gave you.

You support measures that are pretty much equal to the ones your ancestors fought in World War 2.

You support the same discrimination your country congratulated MLK with a holiday for standing up against.

You hate the same civil rights that make the US different from Soviet Russia, Iran, or North Korea.

You despise the same free speech that your forefathers support.

You were ashamed to be an American way before ever coming here. In fact, you're not an American. You so far have shown to hate everything America stands for. I can't think of anyone more anti-American than you.

Well done, Hei-man, well done.

(Claps)

Oh, Means, but you already ARE ashamed to be an American.

You despise most of the rights your founding fathers gave you.

You support measures that are pretty much equal to the ones your ancestors fought in World War 2.

You support the same discrimination your country congratulated MLK with a holiday for standing up against.

You hate the same civil rights that make the US different from Soviet Russia, Iran, or North Korea.

You despise the same free speech that your forefathers support.

You were ashamed to be an American way before ever coming here. In fact, you're not an American. You so far have shown to hate everything America stands for. I can't think of anyone more anti-American than you.
Sigged for posterity.

Thank you for writing the post I've been meaning to write for some time. Well stated.

Whew. When I saw a mod answering to my post I was afraid I was gonna be deleted. :p

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.
I can't remember who said it, but I'll always remember the following: "evil happens when good men do nothing." Luckily, there are all over America good men (or women?;) like yourself who aren't doing nothing. And there are good men (as good as you can get) in Congress too. As long as you and these good men do something, it won't happen.

If that's too optimistic, just remind yourself that USA=/=MTAE.

Oh, Means, but you already ARE ashamed to be an American.

You despise most of the rights your founding fathers gave you.

You support measures that are pretty much equal to the ones your ancestors fought in World War 2.

You support the same discrimination your country congratulated MLK with a holiday for standing up against.

You hate the same civil rights that make the US different from Soviet Russia, Iran, or North Korea.

You despise the same free speech that your forefathers support.

You were ashamed to be an American way before ever coming here. In fact, you're not an American. You so far have shown to hate everything America stands for. I can't think of anyone more anti-American than you.

*Round of applause*

I can't think of anyone more anti-American than you.

You obviously haven't heard of Jane Fonda.

You obviously haven't heard of Jane Fonda.

You lose again.

Some congratulations.

Awww, thanks... :)

*Blushes*

You obviously haven't heard of Jane Fonda.

You've been owned (again), admit defeat!!:D

You lose again.

Why? Because someone wrote an inapt straw-man attack? I think not. I happen to love both America, our civil liberties, and what our country stands for. That's why I can't bear to see it torched by the terrorists, consumed by the criminals, or flattened by foreigners.

Do you remember what statue has a plaque with this written on?
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Next rhetorical question. Do you know what a pyrrhic victory is? It is when the cost of victory is so high, the victory is not worth it.

Gosh you are so inspiring!

The declaration of independence and the bill of rights were a beacon to the world. They stated that every human being was worthwhile.

Well, slaves were worth a lot, but keep going!

If the USA, to win the war on terrorism, throws away many of it's liberties and rights, and makes some humans (Muslims) second calls citizens, the cost of victory will be too high.

Really? What precisely is the cost of defeat? I mean real defeat, what Bin Laden and radical Islam want. Europe and America under the thumb of radical islam. Islamic law. You girlfriend in a veil. She can't read. She can't drive. She can't look up. she can wear black, she has that going for her. And she doesn't have to care too much about her hair, that is a godsend!

Hey, but at least Muslims can breeze thru airport security....

I also think that any further actions that will dehumanise the muslims further, will increase, not decrease the threat anyway.

That is popular tripe to mouth. It ignores the fact that the radical muslims already consider us godless infidels.

So all Muslims wish the country harm? Here's a frightening statistics for you. (it holds no fear for me, as I am a rational human being, who understands that all people can't be judged on the actions of a few) There are 6 to 7 million Muslims in the USA. If they all wanted to do you harm, your country would be gone already.

More like 4.7m, but the point is it only takes 19 or so.

You obviously haven't heard of Jane Fonda.

I actually did. She opposed a war that was harming the American people. You're WAY more anti-American than she is.

Why? Because someone wrote an inapt straw-man attack? I think not. I happen to love both America, our civil liberties, and what our country stands for. That's why I can't bear to see it torched by the terrorists, consumed by the criminals, or flattened by foreigners.

So stop repeatedly trying to deny them to people then.:D

Why? Because someone wrote an inapt straw-man attack? I think not. I happen to love both America, our civil liberties, and what our country stands for. That's why I can't bear to see it torched by the terrorists, consumed by the criminals, or flattened by foreigners.

How would you have handled WWII?

Rhetorically, at what point would you concede that we are in a war? New York and the Pentagon weren't sufficient for you?

Why? Because someone wrote an inapt straw-man attack? I think not. I happen to love both America, our civil liberties, and what our country stands for. That's why I can't bear to see it torched by the terrorists, consumed by the criminals, or flattened by foreigners.

You see, dear, it's only a strawman if you're, in any way, shape or form, exaggerating or lying about someone.

Why? Because someone wrote an inapt straw-man attack? I think not. I happen to love both America, our civil liberties, and what our country stands for. That's why I can't bear to see it torched by the terrorists, consumed by the criminals, or flattened by foreigners.

HA HA! You can't spell inept!

(quits acting immature)

In all seriousness, stop trying to be intelligent. You're not exactly doing a good job of it, y'know.

Ever feel ashamed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061201/lf_nm/usa_muslims_fear_dc_1) of your fellow citizens? I mean besides that whole Macarena thing, and for making Britney Spears a multi-millionaire.



Except that Klein didn't actually believe what he'd suggested. Here's how he finished the show:

There are people on this forum who sound exactly like the callers above--we all know who they are. But I, at least, like to think that they're in the severe minority, that we as a nation are better, more open, more accepting, if only because we have history as a guide, and because of our tradition as a multicultural nation. But man, am I wrong.

Are we beyond saving? Is the US lost? Someone give me a reason to think otherwise, please, because I'm having serious doubts right now.

Apologist.
How about France and there POLICY towards Muslim citizens?
I dont see protests inthe streets by non-Muslim non-asian french calling for equal rights.

Look at the BNP in Britain...they hold offices, for godsakes.

Your anti-US bias is the only ugliness I see, humanity is full of xenophobic reactionaries. Humanity as in people everywhere, not just United States Citizens, and you will note the DJ who did the experiement wasnt a visiting foreign national come to lead us to the light.

HA HA! You can't spell inept!

(quits acting immature)

In all seriousness, stop trying to be intelligent. You're not exactly doing a good job of it, y'know.

You're a moron, aren't you? Here, look up "inapt" in the dictionary before making any more inane comments.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=inapt

Apologist.
How about France and there POLICY towards Muslim citizens?
I dont see protests inthe streets by non-Muslim non-asian french calling for equal rights.

Look at the BNP in Britain...they hold offices, for godsakes.

Your anti-US bias is the only ugliness I see, humanity is full of xenophobic reactionaries. Humanity as in people everywhere, not just United States Citizens, and you will note the DJ who did the experiement wasnt a visiting foreign national come to lead us to the light.

Anout 50 local councillors out of several thousand. The BNP have practically zero support overall in the UK.

You're a moron, aren't you?

Attention, people! Witness MTAE, the GUY THAT DOES NOT FLAME!!!

Or claims not to.

In all seriousness, stop trying to be intelligent. You're not exactly doing a good job of it, y'know.

I hope that was rhetorical statement directed at yourself, sincerely I do.

Next why would you suggest anyone stop trying to BE intelligent, I hope everyone tries to be as intelligent as possible.

I would suggest you stop trying to ACT intelligent as you are doing a piss poor job of it, you know.

Anout 50 local councillors out of several thousand. The BNP have practically zero support overall in the UK.

My point still stands they were democratically elected...in elections run far better then American ones I might add.

However I am not slandering the entire nation of the United Kingdom because of a small group of people. I am making a point that "ugliness" is everywhere.
But you can get your panties all bunched up if you wish.

My point still stands they were democratically elected...in elections run far better then American ones I might add.

However I am not slandering the entire nation of the United Kingdom because of a small group of people. I am making a point that "ugliness" is everywhere.
But you can get your panties all bunched up if you wish.

Just making a point. I'm not accusing you of slandering anyone, if anything your the one with your panties bunched up.

HA HA! You can't spell inept!

(quits acting immature)

In all seriousness, stop trying to be intelligent. You're not exactly doing a good job of it, y'know.

"Inapt". As in not apt. You do know what "apt" means, right?

I agree with the overall assumption that MTAE is a clown, but you might want to make sure you're right before you insult his intelligence. If there's one thing he's proven, it's his proficient grasp of vocabulary.

I gave this some thought before posting. Americans are legally obligated to carry some form of ID (drivers license, state ID, etc...) So, I don't see any harm in issueing the foreigners a similiar type ID card.

I'm against the tattooing, armbands, concentration camps, etc... but think an ID card would be sufficient and very reasonable. With having that magnetic strip would give the local law enforcement agencies access to the federal information needed.

I gave this some thought before posting. Americans are legally obligated to carry some form of ID (drivers license, state ID, etc...) So, I don't see any harm in issueing the foreigners a similiar type ID card.

I'm against the tattooing, armbands, concentration camps, etc... but think an ID card would be sufficient and very reasonable. With having that magnetic strip would give the local law enforcement agencies access to the federal information needed.

So what would change?

I happen to love both America, our civil liberties, and what our country stands for.

America's official stance would be that of democracy, equality and freedom for all under a unified banner . You espouse slavery. You support division of citizenry based on ethnic, religious and economic backgrounds. Furthermore, you have gone on record urging the abolishment of practical democracy (more than one party) as well as thinly disguised movements to completely eradicate groups of people based on ethnicity, and in some cases, political persuasion.

You don't love America, or it's civil liberties. You'd be much more at home in the Kremlin.


That's why I can't bear to see it torched by the terrorists, consumed by the criminals, or flattened by foreigners.

I see. It's because you'd rather torch them yourself don't you?

Hey, but at least Muslims can breeze thru airport security....


Yeah, been on any planes recently?