NationStates Jolt Archive

Plain speech by the Malmö (city in southern Sweden) Police: It's all going to hell!

"– When you are a policeman you see the consequences of the decisions made by our politicians in a very real way. The immigration policy of Sweden is basically a total failure. Moreover, this experiment is costing enormous sums each and every year. Politicians are now afterwards trying to patch and mend, coming up with various ideas and measures. But it's totally obvious to every thinking human being that it is about to go to hell – in plain speech."

These are the words of a chief police officer who has been working for many years in Malmö, to Folkets Nyheter, about his work situation which has changed dramatically in those years. And he is perfectly clear on what it is that has caused these negative changes.

Malmö is one of Sweden's most immigrant dense cities, 40 percent of the inhabitants are of an entirely foreign background. And just as in many of the other cities of the country, serious violence and robbery, and the fear among Swedes to fall victim to these crimes, has become a part of everyday life in Malmö.
Sydsvenskan, a news paper circulated in the southern Swedish province of Skåne where Malmö is situated, claimed in an editorial earlier this year that democracy in Sweden is intact and that debate is practically unconstrained. Yet, Folkets Nyheter is forced to interview the police man anonymously, in order not to put him in jeopardy of losing his job.

– These days, we have neither freedom of speech nor opinion in Sweden, comments the police man. As long as you think the way the political power elite does, you're welcome to a career, but otherwise? Just look at what happened to my colleague.

The colleague being referred to is Malmö policeman Bengt Lindström who was fired by the National Police Board this year after criticising the consequences of mass immigration, such as the lack of proper community services for the elderly in Malmö. A decision that naturally has had an impact on a major segment of the police force, the policeman says.

– No officer today dares utter any criticism in these matters, neither on duty nor as a private citizen. You are first and foremost concerned about your employment and your livelihood. The National Police Board made an example out of sacking Lindström: ”Don't criticise or you'll lose your job!”

He agrees wholeheartedly with Bengt Lindström's criticism of the situation in Malmö.

– When our elderly, who have toiled their whole lives and contributed to building this country, are denied community service it pains my heart. The government just recently gave the municipalities another 1,7 billion SEK (235 880 000 USD) to help them manage with the handling of all illegal immigrants. It stands to reason that we Swedes need to take care of our own first of all.

– The number of cases involving serious violence committed against citizens in public places has increased substantially since the beginning of the 90's when I started working in Malmö. It's almost exclusively immigrant youth that are the perpetrators behind robberies and assaults in public places. This is well-documented but the authorities responsible for the situation do not want to go public about it. Because it would contradict the integration propaganda of our government, they choose to keep silent.
– And the number of rapes has risen dramatically as well, which has to do with the fact that over 40 percent of Malmö's inhabitants have a different ethnic background where the men's power over women is absolute. Their view on women is so totally alien to us Swedish men and they continue living according to their own culture, paying no attention to the circumstance that they are in a different country where their own ones are in force. Unfortunately this behaviour is reinforced by Swedish authorities and courts of justice, which in their sentences take into account the ethnic culture of the suspect.
The policeman also confirms the negative way in which police and other emergency services are greeted in the suburbs of Malmö.

– Many immigrants have no respect for the police whatsoever. Many times you're treated like you've come to collect the garbage. Immigrants have so far only encountered representatives from the immigration and social services. They are used to being stroked the right way and having all of their demands satisfied.
– Certain routine matters, like checking an immigrant's driving license in Rosengård (transl. note. an infamous immigrant suburb of Malmö), easily get out of hand and become a major event where all available police sources have to intervene to restore the order. Thanks to cellphones a lot of ”supporters” join the scene in a very short time when you intervene in Rosengård. If you stop a car for a routine check, soon the whole clan show up to oppose the police.

– Unfortunately a large part of the Swedish people have a distorted view of what is happening and that is due 99 percent to the biased portrayal of reality given by the media. For example they use concepts like ”youth gangs” instead of speaking plainly and saying, like in Landskrona (transl. note. another immigrant dense city in Skåne) that it's Albanian criminal gangs who are causing problems.
– I'd like to make it clear that it is not ”Per” and ”Stina” (transl. note. common Swedish names) who are causing this hellish commotion. It's the immigrant gangs who are trying to take over control and spread fear among ordinary citizens. Unfortunately our society is showing an incredible leniency towards these behaviours so there is cause for serious concern regarding the future.

– I fully understand those who organize themselves in vigilante groups and involve and engage themselves in one of the most important issues there is, the safety of the family. When society fails to come to the aid of its citizens, of course you have to take matters in your own hands. You have a legal right to defend yourself and your property. You are even allowed to use force to the degree necessary for your protection.


The officer says that it is obvious that the tendency towards violence and crime among immigrants is concealed and excused because a clique within the corridors of power want it that way.

– My personal theory is that these individuals have their political roots in the late 60's. The era of the so-called ”fuzzy leftists”. Individuals who studied at the universities in 1968 are presently holding high positions in our society and are contributing to the moral decline and the degeneration taking place right before our eyes.

Concerning the political power in Skåne and the three premier representatives of this power, chief prosecutor Sven-Erik Alhem, Malmö city councillor Ilmar Reepalu and district chief of police Anders Danielsson, the policeman says:

– All three of them represent the cemented power in Sweden at different levels and none of them seems to have the ability to think independently. They act only to satisfy their commissioners and couldn't care less about what the common citizen thinks. They are only puppets of the political power in today's Sweden. Corruptive friendships and guarding their positions of power are more important to them than dealing with the problems and tasks assigned to them. All three know each other and see each other privately.

– To me and to most other policemen Alhem is just a big clown who's only interested in showing himself off. He's long ago lost all connection with reality. Alhem is a great supporter of multiculturalism. He couldn't care less about the fact that this multiculturalism is contributing to a negative development of the society.

The officer's hope is that the actual situation in Sweden will force more and more Swedes to ”wake up”.

– Sooner or later everyone has to realize that this can't go on. There has to be a radical change in practical policies. You and I and our families have a duty to guard and uphold the heritage of our forefathers who were part of building such a successful country.

– No multicultural society has ever shown any positive development.

– There is only one alternative and that is to preserve our traditions. Behold the positive that our ancestors have contributed! An ordered society that protects the family and with conditions in which to live, to develop and to feel safe in. To care for your family and those close to you must become a matter of course for all Swedes.
Well. This is depressing to read. What do you guys think of this? I have heard of this happening also in Gotheburg and Stockholm. Do you think mass-immigration is destroying areas of Sweden? Do you think immigration should be regulated so immigrants can be better situated and assimilated?

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/?sida=artikel&aID=408

Ny Nordland?

Ny Nordland?

My thoughts exactly......I miss Nordies rants:rolleyes:

My thoughts exactly......I miss Nordies rants:rolleyes:

Well it has an awfully large post count to be a puppet.

who needs multiculturalism.

who needs multiculturalism.

Poland?

My thoughts exactly......I miss Nordies rants:rolleyes:
Great, keep it to yourself. Please comment but dont troll in my thread.
Well it has an awfully large post count to be a puppet.
Uh....can we focus on the post at hand. Its a real article from a Swedish paper. It is NOT trolling.

Sorry, TAI, you'll never be as good as DK.

Poland?

why u say that?

Great, keep it to yourself. Please comment but dont troll in my thread.

Uh....can we focus on the post at hand. Its a real article from a Swedish paper. It is NOT trolling.

I never said it was, this is just a very Ny Nordland-esque article.


As for the article, seems like some swedish police officers are using some fuzzy logic.
City has a lot of crime
City has a lot of immigrants
Immigrants are criminals.

Poland?
Why?

why u say that?

Well there's quite a few Polish people coming to Ireland to join various other Eastern Europeans. Since Ireland is a rip off of a country, I can only assume the like the weather or the new multicultualism.

I never said it was, this is just a very Ny Nordland-esque article.


As for the article, seems like some swedish police officers are using some fuzzy logic.
City has a lot of crime
City has a lot of immigrants
Immigrants are criminals.
Its more than that. Its showing that the imported culture there is incompatible to Sweden's. It shows that those people there join gangs, and make it an unsafe place to live around. It shows that the government has to divert funding from other places, to deal with these people who arnt even Swedes and are not making an effort to become Swedes. He says these people to not respect authority, but one his last points was interesting to me:
"– No multicultural society has ever shown any positive development."
What do you think of this? You cant use American against these, because America has always been more of a melting pot, where people come and become Americans, than come and became, "Iranians living in Sweden". Atleast until recently.

Well there's quite a few Polish people coming to Ireland to join various other Eastern Europeans. Since Ireland is a rip off of a country, I can only assume the like the weather or the new multicultualism.
Or the fact that Ireland is a very good place to live from a business point of view. Ireland is very good for capitalism and small businesses. It currently ranks as one of the best.

Its more than that. Its showing that the imported culture there is incompatible to Sweden's. It shows that those people there join gangs, and make it an unsafe place to live around. It shows that the government has to divert funding from other places, to deal with these people who arnt even Swedes and are not making an effort to become Swedes. He says these people to not respect authority,
Yes, I'm sure all the problems are caused by immigrants :rolleyes:
but one his last points was interesting to me:
"– No multicultural society has ever shown any positive development."
What do you think of this? You cant use American against these, because America has always been more of a melting pot, where people come and become Americans, than come and became, "Iranians living in Sweden". Atleast until recently.

Ah, but America is a good example. For example, during the potato famine in Ireland millions of Irish emmigrated to America, and lots of cities on the east coast, especially New York, ended up with Irish Suburbs, nestled in between the Russian one, and the Italian one, and numerous others.

But other than that, the world has never been this small, and multiculturalism has never been as prevalent as it is now, to my knowledge. Maybe there hasn't been any positive development in multicultural societies yet, but that's not to say there won't be.

You do understand that "Folkets Nyheter" is an actual bonafide Nazi (as in the National Socialistic party - yup, the true Nazies!) propaganda rag and not an actual newspaper , don't you?

I mean, you as a Jew should at least feel a little hesitant about taking a Nazi mouth piece at face value, let alone spread its "message."

You do understand that "Folkets Nyheter" is an actual bonafide Nazi (as in the National Socialistic party - yup, the true Nazies!) propaganda rag and not an actual newspaper , don't you?
No. I dont speak Swedish. The article is in English, but the rest of the website is in Svenska. I have no idea what it says.
I mean, you as a Jew should at least feel a little hesitant to take a Nazi mouth piece at face value.
This doesnt have to do with me personally, no need to bring me into it.

Yes, I'm sure all the problems are caused by immigrants :rolleyes:
I'm not saying "ALL" the problems, I'm saying the problems in these areas. If you do not beleive so, prove they are not.

Ah, but America is a goexample. For example, during the potato famine in Ireland millions of Irish emmigrated to America, and lots of cities on the east coast, especially New York, ended up with Irish Suburbs, nestled in between the Russian one, and the Italian one, and numerous others.
Ok.

But other than that, the world has never been this small, and multiculturalism has never been as prevalent as it is now, to my knowledge. Maybe there hasn't been any positive development in multicultural societies yet, but that's not to say there won't be.
Well, we can atleast agree to this.

I'm not saying "ALL" the problems, I'm saying the problems in these areas. If you do not beleive so, prove they are not.
Generally the burden of proof falls upon the person making the point.


Ok.


Well, we can atleast agree to this.

Yay :)

Generally the burden of proof falls upon the person making the point.
My proof comes from the fact that cities like Malmo are ALWAYS mentioned in newspapers talking about problems with mass-immigration, failed multiculturalism, high rates of crime, rape, ect. It is no coincidence that Malmo is probably the worst (in terms of immigrants to Swedes) city in Sweden, and one of the worst in Northern Europe.

My proof also comes from these policemen who work in Malmo testifying for what the article says.

No. I dont speak Swedish.

And there you have it. You found something on the Internet in a language you don't understand and about a matter you know nothing of, and trusted not only in the translation of it, but that it was somehow true because it looked authentic.

This doesnt have to do with me personally, no need to bring me into it.

I just think it's hilarious that you, a Jew - a person those who publish this "periodical" (it's actually more like a brochure they hand out at Nazi rallies with things they call "news" in it) want to eradicate is actually using it to try to fling poo at the other people these Nazis would like exterminated. The irony is oh, so exquisite... and then there's of course all the egg you've just applied to your own face.

My proof comes from the fact that cities like Malmo are ALWAYS mentioned in newspapers talking about problems with mass-immigration, failed multiculturalism, high rates of crime, rape, ect. It is no coincidence that Malmo is probably the worst (in terms of immigrants to Swedes) city in Sweden, and one of the worst in Northern Europe.

My proof also comes from these policemen who work in Malmo testifying for what the article says.

Malmo has a lot of crime.
Malmo has a lot of immigrants.
Immigrants must be the source of crime in Malmo.

Or there might be some slightly more complex reasons behind it. Oh, and considering they were interviewed by a Nazi "newspaper" I wouldn't put a whole lot of trust in the objectivity of those cops.

You do understand that "Folkets Nyheter" is an actual bonafide Nazi (as in the National Socialistic party - yup, the true Nazies!) propaganda rag and not an actual newspaper , don't you?

:eek: Whoa. Okay.

My proof comes from the fact that cities like Malmo are ALWAYS mentioned in newspapers talking about problems with mass-immigration, failed multiculturalism, high rates of crime, rape, ect.

You haven't actually read all that many stories about Malmö, now have you?

My proof also comes from these policemen who work in Malmo testifying for what the article says.

Hahaha! (<- I actually did laugh there, honest to Darwin, I did.) Oh, dear... you actually think this Nazi hogwash they printed in their own mouth piece is true?

A large population of immigrants doesn't automatically cause crime rates to go up. There are other factors at work. Poverty and disenfranchisement are more often culprits than ethnicity alone.

Richmond, BC, Canada, is 60% Asian; the crime rate there is not particularly high.

I thought being a Nazi was illegal in sweden.

:eek: Whoa. Okay.

http://www.info14.com/img/NSFdemo4.jpg

Yup. He basically quoted these people. Don't you just love the neo-Nazi outfits? They're so tacky, they'd be gorgeous were they ironically meant.

The editor of the Nazi "paper," is Lennart Berg. An actual Nazi. Who led a Nazi party. Who is a high figure in "Nationaldemokraterna." Whose "paper" this is.

I thought being a Nazi was illegal in sweden.

Umm, no, no it isn't.

Rather than discuss the Malmo situation, though I must say that many of the claims in the article need to be properly supported before they can be debated, I would like to discuss the idea of multiculturalism.

I have lived most of my life in Canadian urban centers, which are very multicultural. We have no melting pot, as it is more like a mosaic. I remember being about ten years old before encountering the idea of races, and then it still took some time to understand that most of the people around me were of different races to myself and each other. Until then, they had simply been people.

Every day, I see people from all the cultures and religions of the world interacting in an honest and intelligent manner. Hassidics buy falafels, Muslims work in Italian restaurants making pork sausages, Greek kids deliver empanadas and beer from the convenience store on the corner, owned by a Korean who speaks neither english nor french. If multiculturalism doesn't work, then my community could not possibly function.

Umm, no, no it isn't.

Well I'm surprised. It strikes me as exactly the type of thing continentals like to ban.

And there you have it. You found something on the Internet in a language you don't understand and about a matter you know nothing of, and trusted not only in the translation of it, but that it was somehow true because it looked authentic.
No. Its in english, and I hear about immigration in Scandinavian all the time. I didnt bother to search around the rest of the site, becuase the thing I wanted was in English. Why would I go look around for other things?:rolleyes:

No. Its in english,

No, it's in Swedish but translated to English, having been relatively cleaned up not to come across as Nazi as it does in the Swedish original.

and I hear about immigration in Scandinavian all the time.

Let me guess, from Ny Nordland and other Nazi "sources" such as this one? Perchance, "Fjordman," no? You might as well rely on the KKK or Nation of Islam for accurate reporting on racial issues in the US, or the Bhaat party's monthly newsletter about the true story of glorious leader Saddam.

I didnt bother to search around the rest of the site, becuase the thing I wanted was in English. Why would I go look around for other things?:rolleyes:

Because, you know, then you wouldn't have ended up making such a mockery of yourself by falling for something concocted by actual Nazis (ooh, I'm enjoying your public shaming too much, I fear! My schadenfreude levels are soaring) and then spreading it, as if you yourself yearned for the jolliness of the gas chambers.

No, it's in Swedish but translated to English, having been relatively cleaned up not to come across as Nazi as it does in the Swedish original.
Right. So what I wanted was in English. Exactly.


Let me guess, from Ny Nordland and other Nazi "sources" such as this one? Perchance, "Fjordman," no? You might as well rely on the KKK or Nation of Islam for accurate reporting on racial issues in the US, or the Bhaat party's monthly newsletter about the true story of glorious leader Saddam.
Nope.:)


Because, you know, then you wouldn't have ended up making such a mockery of yourself by falling for something concocted by actual Nazis (ooh, I'm enjoying your public shaming too much, I fear! My schadenfreude levels are soaring) and then spreading it, as if you yourself yearned for the jolliness of the gas chambers.[/QUOTE]
Uh...no. Boy, you really like reading into things, dont you. I didnt search around because what I wanted was right there in English, the rest of the site was in Swedish, which I cant understand, plus I didnt need to go looking around the rest of the site because I had what I needed.

You sure have an active immagination.:p

Right. So what I wanted was in English. Exactly.

You wanted Nazi stories? That doesn't actually reflect any better on you, you know.

Nope.:)

Sure, honey, sure. We just saw proof of your source critique, or the blatant lack thereof.

Uh...no. Boy, you really like reading into things, dont you. I didnt search around because what I wanted was right there in English, the rest of the site was in Swedish, which I cant understand, plus I didnt need to go looking around the rest of the site because I had what I needed.

"What I wanted, i.e. untrue things written by Nazis that I could troll with, was right there on the Nazi website!"

You sure have an active immagination.:p

And you sure have shamed yourself. :D

The officer's hope is that the actual situation in Sweden will force more and more Swedes to ”wake up”.

– Sooner or later everyone has to realize that this can't go on. There has to be a radical change in practical policies. You and I and our families have a duty to guard and uphold the heritage of our forefathers who were part of building such a successful country.

– No multicultural society has ever shown any positive development.

– There is only one alternative and that is to preserve our traditions. Behold the positive that our ancestors have contributed! An ordered society that protects the family and with conditions in which to live, to develop and to feel safe in. To care for your family and those close to you must become a matter of course for all Swedes.

And some people call us racist when we say this about illegal immigrants in the US. :mad:

Its more than that. Its showing that the imported culture there is incompatible to Sweden's. It shows that those people there join gangs, and make it an unsafe place to live around. It shows that the government has to divert funding from other places, to deal with these people who arnt even Swedes and are not making an effort to become Swedes. He says these people to not respect authority, but one his last points was interesting to me:

It also shows the immigrants are not willing to assimilate into the Swedish culture, but are content to remain a sub-culture. :mad:

And some people call us racist when we say this about illegal immigrants in the US. :mad:

As I wrote, it's a Nazi "paper." It is racist, because it's supposed to be. That you actually share the opinions of Nazis, well, that's on you.

It also shows the immigrants are not willing to assimilate into the Swedish culture, but are content to remain a sub-culture. :mad:

Here's apparently another one who thinks Nazis are credible...

As I wrote, it's a Nazi "paper." It is racist, because it's supposed to be. That you actually share the opinions of Nazis, well, that's on you.



Here's apparently another one who thinks Nazis are credible...
It doesnt matter who is saying this. Nazis breathe air, but that doesnt mean breathing air is Nazi. Other people say this show this all the time. Here is the same stuff from a non-nazi source: Michelle Malkin;

What's the Matter with Sweden?
By David Orland · May 07, 2005 08:59 AM
"Former colonial powers like France and Britain are not the only European countries suffering from the breakdown of assimilation mechanisms consequent upon mass immigration. The countries of Scandinavia are as well. Given their small populations and generous welfare states, the results are, if anything, even more dramatic.


Consider the case of Sweden. Unlike their neighbours in Denmark, who in 2002 decided to place strict conditions on those wishing to emmigrate to the country, Sweden's political elites have resolutely refused to consider cutting back on migration -- and that despite a foreign born population already at 12%. Worse yet, official multiculturalism effectively rules out assimilation for the constant stream of (mainly Muslim) newcomers. The result is the ghettoization of Swedish cities and an increase in inter-communal violence.


Norwegian blogger Fjordman has documented what this has meant for Malmö, Sweden's third largest city:




According to some estimates, the rapidly growing Muslim immigrant population may turn Malmö into a Muslim majority city within about ten years. It will be the first major Scandinavian city to enjoy this honor, although perhaps not the last. Native Swedes are leaving the city in droves, as crime is rampant and the police publicly admit they don't control all parts of the city. There are now gangs in Malmö specialized in assaulting old people visiting the graves of relatives. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. The city is descending into general chaos. Fights in the city's movie theatres have become a recurrent problem. Numbers released in January 2005 indicate a sharp rise in the number of rape charges in Malmö. Thomas Anderberg, responsible for statistics at the Malmö Police, says there was a doubling of the number of reported rapes by ambush in 2004, following what was already a decade of steadily increasing numbers of sexual crimes.


What's happening in Sweden should serve as an object lesson for all those countries, the US included, in which a generous immigration policy is accompanied by state-sponsored multiculturalism. And in Sweden, which has long been seen as a model for social democratic governance, the problems posed by contemporary immigration are particularly acute. For as communal relations deteriorate and the social service dependence of unskilled immigrants grows, it is anything but clear how the country is to maintain the consensus on which the post-war providential state was founded.


As Prospect Editor David Goodhart put it in an important 2004 essay:




The diversity, individualism and mobility that characterise developed economies - especially in the era of globalisation - mean that more of our lives is spent among strangers. Ever since the invention of agriculture 10,000 years ago, humans have been used to dealing with people from beyond their own extended kin groups. The difference now in a developed country such as Britain is that we not only live among stranger citizens but we must share with them. We share public services and parts of our income in the welfare state, we share public spaces in towns and cities where we are squashed together on buses, trains and tubes, and we share in a democratic conversation - filtered by the media - about the collective choices we wish to make. All such acts of sharing are more smoothly and generously negotiated if we can take for granted a limited set of common values and assumptions. But as Britain becomes more diverse that common culture is being eroded.


And therein lies one of the central dilemmas of political life in developed societies: sharing and solidarity can conflict with diversity.



Goodhart's dilemma is European in scale. In three weeks, France will be voting on the referendum to the EU Constitution. That the referendum will pass remains uncertain, not least because many voters worry that it will erode workers' rights and the welfare state. The Swedish case suggests that such debates may already be obsolete. With native birthrates collapsing across the Continent and immigration undermining historic solidarities, the postwar welfare state is in serious trouble.


Until Europe comes to terms with these problems, no constitution can save it."

http://michellemalkin.com/immigration/2005/05/07/08:59.am

Yes, I'm sure all the problems are caused by immigrants :rolleyes:


Ah, but America was a good example. .


Corrected.

When the Irish and others came here, most came legally. They did not demand social services; they worked hard, and paid their taxes. Those who did not speak English learned it, and their children did very well in school without ESL or special classes in their own language. When they went to the hospital or doctor they did not "expect" someone to translate for them. If they needed a translator, they brought one with them. Within one generation they were assimilated. Oh, my! I guess my prejudice against illegal immigrants is showing. :rolleyes:

And the problem in Sweden isn’t even illegal immigrants.

Every day, I see people from all the cultures and religions of the world interacting in an honest and intelligent manner. Hassidics buy falafels, Muslims work in Italian restaurants making pork sausages, Greek kids deliver empanadas and beer from the convenience store on the corner, owned by a Korean who speaks neither english nor french. If multiculturalism doesn't work, then my community could not possibly function.

It isn't mulitculturism. These folks are assimilating into the Canadian culture, the Canadian life style, and the Canadian way of living and working. They are becoming, or have become Canadian.

The officer's hope is that the actual situation in Sweden will force more and more Swedes to ”wake up”.

– Sooner or later everyone has to realize that this can't go on. There has to be a radical change in practical policies. You and I and our families have a duty to guard and uphold the heritage of our forefathers who were part of building such a successful country.

– No multicultural society has ever shown any positive development.

– There is only one alternative and that is to preserve our traditions. Behold the positive that our ancestors have contributed! An ordered society that protects the family and with conditions in which to live, to develop and to feel safe in. To care for your family and those close to you must become a matter of course for all Swedes.

And some people call us racist when we say this about illegal immigrants in the US. :mad:

What chances do immigrants have? After all they have came to country in hope for freedom or better chance to live and prosper. And what they have gotten? (rhetorical Question) Then you say that
"No multicultural society has ever shown any positive development" Well I wonder why US has became one of G8 countries. :rolleyes: And most of the states where the immigrants are coming are formal colonys or satellite states, which (most of them) are in state of corruption and are "developing" countries. So, if you want so bad to keep immigrants out your country you should encourage your goverment to help those countries where those "criminal" immigrants are coming. And you should try to rehabilate criminals and put more money on education and social security (It will pay back after time).

-snip-

Michelle Malkin and Fjordman? Seriously, Michelle and Fjordman?

Congrats, you just found funnier people to shame yourself with than the Nazis. This is hilarious, the levels you stoop to, the beds you lie in, the asses you rim just to perpetuate your xenophobia. Well, at least this thread has made it more than apparent that you'd basically support and defend Nazis.

No surprise to me, of course, but seeing you lick Nazi boot is mightily satisfying, yes. I shall now expect you to defend Fred Phelps' (another internet personality you may want to quote as being credible) view on US soldiers. Go!

As I wrote, it's a Nazi "paper." It is racist, because it's supposed to be. That you actually share the opinions of Nazis, well, that's on you.

Here's apparently another one who thinks Nazis are credible...

Funny how you still haven't actually addressed the point of the thread. All you keep saying is that the article was written by nazis, with the presumption that anything that nazis say is always by default bullshit propaganda.

The OP has provided support for his argument. If you choose to not believe it, it is up to you to refute it. And pointing out the article's possible political affiliation is not going to cut it.

As I wrote, it's a Nazi "paper." It is racist, because it's supposed to be. That you actually share the opinions of Nazis, well, that's on you.



Here's apparently another one who thinks Nazis are credible...

The problem with people who claim to be tolerant of others is, they are not. When people disagree with their views they call them biggots, homophobes, or Nazis. You sir, have little tolerance for people who disagree with your views as is shown by your statement above.

Perhaps this source would be more acceptable to Fass. Obviously, it isn't just the Nazi news that sees the problem as Fass would have us beleive.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/271dgkju.asp

The problem with people who claim to be tolerant of others is, they are not. When people disagree with their views they call them biggots, homophobes, or Nazis. You sir, have little tolerance for people who disagree with your views as is shown by your statement above.

No, you don't understand. They call themselves Nazis. As in, they're actual members of the largest Nazi party here - the "Nationaldemokraterna." They're Nazis - bonafide Hitler-worshippers and Kike/Fag/Gypsy-exterminators.

And, no, I do not give credibility to Nazis, unlike you. I'm just not keen on genocide and lunacy.

You do understand that "Folkets Nyheter" is an actual bonafide Nazi (as in the National Socialistic party - yup, the true Nazies!) propaganda rag and not an actual newspaper , don't you?

I mean, you as a Jew should at least feel a little hesitant about taking a Nazi mouth piece at face value, let alone spread its "message."

I was getting this impression. Found this article with Mandela saying kill white people, but its in swedish. Could you give us the jist please?

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/?sida=artikel&aID=390

thanks

Funny how you still haven't actually addressed the point of the thread. All you keep saying is that the article was written by nazis, with the presumption that anything that nazis say is always by default bullshit propaganda.

Because it is BS propaganda. By Nazis.

The OP has provided support for his argument.

No, no he hasn't. Claiming he's given "support" to his argument by these links, is like claiming that someone who links to Fred Phelps gave "support" for his arguments.

I was getting this impression. Found this article with Mandela saying kill white people, but its in swedish. Could you give us the jist please?

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/?sida=artikel&aID=390

thanks

The jist is: Black people want to kill white people, and Nelson Mandela (who is depicted as a monster) really, really wants to kill white people. As you can see by the caricature it's not exactly the high point of journalism, this "paper:"

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/_upload/CartoonSongMachineGun300.gif

The jist is: Black people want to kill white people, and Nelson Mandela (who is depicted as a monster) really, really wants to kill white people. As you can see by the caricature it's not exactly the high point of journalism, this "paper:"

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/_upload/CartoonSongMachineGun300.gif

so "kill whitie"?

got the jist of that from the photos, but i thought the article might be a bit more interested. like "we sent in hidden reporters with shoe polish on there face (aren't those darkies stupid!!) and recorded the following song!"

I've never understood how people can say that the US is just "naturally" different so it can't be used as an example of successful "multiculturalism" in light of "multiculturalism" supposedly being "incompatible" in other places.

But uh yeah, good nazi article about the evils of multiculturalism. ;)

so "kill whitie"?

got the jist of that from the photos, but i thought the article might be a bit more interested. like "we sent in hidden reporters with shoe polish on there face (aren't those darkies stupid!!) and recorded the following song!"

I like that when Nelson Mandela is claimed to sing "kill white people," in the pictures he has a white man standing by him apparently not really reacting to Mr Mandela as a person who just sang that he wanted to kill him.

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/_bilder/Mand3.gif

Really, it's BS propaganda of the most transparent, and poorly devised kind.

I’d like to point out that Britain had a massive immigration wave about 50 years ago yet the Anglican church still stands! (though Britain’s history is such that I doubt there is any purely British culture) you will also notice that Britain (a multicultural nation at every time in history) managed to rule one quarter of the Earths surface at one time!

I’d like to also point out that groups such as Gypsies and Jews have never really integrated fully yet we have never had any trouble with them weird eh? (or maybe Ebil Ebil Muslims are all rapists and murderers!!!1111)

Those who did not speak English learned it

I think you underestimate British colonialism on this one unless your referring to children under 2 :D

No, no he hasn't. Claiming he's given "support" to his argument by these links, is like claiming that someone who links to Fred Phelps gave "support" for his arguments.

The original article had an interview with a police officer, who has seen the problems up close. It's not like The OP posted a column by a nazi or something like that. I believe you if you say that the paper published this article to help their agenda (like all papers do when they publish anything), but if you want to prove the article untrue, you'll have to do a little better than "but they're nazis".

Do you deny that crime rates and the amount of immigrants are directly proportional? (Nobody is claiming that all crime is caused solely by immigration, or that all immigrants are criminals.)
Do you deny that most crime in Malmö is committed by immigrants?
Do you deny that mass immigration is very expensive to the country?

The original article had an interview with a police officer, who has seen the problems up close. It's not like The OP posted a column by a nazi or something like that. I believe you if you say that the paper published this article to help their agenda (like all papers do when they publish anything), but if you want to prove the article untrue, you'll have to do a little better than "but they're nazis".

Do you deny that crime rates and the amount of immigrants are directly proportional? (Nobody is claiming that all crime is caused solely by immigration, or that all immigrants are criminals.)
Do you deny that most crime in Malmö is committed by immigrants?
Do you deny that mass immigration is very expensive to the country?Please don't give nazis the credibility they don't deserve :(

The original article had an interview with a police officer

you just don't get it do you? they probably never even interviewed a policeman and why would they its not like they are trying to build up there credibility

Do you deny that crime rates and the amount of immigrants are directly proportional? (Nobody is claiming that all crime is caused solely by immigration, or that all immigrants are criminals.)
Do you deny that most crime in Malmö is committed by immigrants?
Do you deny that mass immigration is very expensive to the country?

1) in a way (as in more people = more crime)
2) yep
3) yep (immigrates contribution to the British treasury is in the billions!)

couldn't help myself :p

The original article had an interview with a police officer, who has seen the problems up close.

No, the original article had a claimed interview - not corroborated in any way - with a police officer. Seriously - these are Nazis. Even believing they actually talked to a police officer is being very, very naïve, to say the least.

Do you deny that crime rates and the amount of immigrants are directly proportional? (Nobody is claiming that all crime is caused solely by immigration, or that all immigrants are criminals.)

Yes.

Do you deny that most crime in Malmö is committed by immigrants?

Yes.

Do you deny that mass immigration is very expensive to the country?

Define "very expensive." Fat people are "very expensive" to the country (we're talking billions upon billions in morbidity costs). Children, as well (you wouldn't believe how much money we invest in them, the diabetes-ridden illiterate bastards!) Immigrants? Well, they don't even begin to compare... so, well, I guess I do deny that as well.

So, if you want so bad to keep immigrants out your country you should encourage your goverment to help those countries where those "criminal" immigrants are coming.
I could not have said it better myself. That is EXACTLY what we need to do.
Create jobs, generate wealth, and open up opportunities in those countries, so there is a demand for them there, so they dont have to come here.

I like that when Nelson Mandela is claimed to sing "kill white people," in the pictures he has a white man standing by him apparently not really reacting to Mr Mandela as a person who just sang that he wanted to kill him.

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/_bilder/Mand3.gif

Really, it's BS propaganda of the most transparent, and poorly devised kind.

HES NOT WHITE, HES A JEWZ!!

i know that's what made me think maybe the newsight was a bit errr..... stupid i guess

No, the original article had a claimed interview - not corroborated in any way - with a police officer. Seriously - these are Nazis. Even believing they actually talked to a police officer is being very, very naïve, to say the least.

Has this paper been caught for fabricating interviews previously? If not, this is nothing but your prejudices talking. You may be right, but that is just an assumption and cannot therefore be used as an argument. Not that it matters anymore, because other similar links to non-nazi sources have been provided in this thread already.


Yes.

Yes.

Define "very expensive." Fat people are "very expensive" to the country (we're talking billions upon billions in morbidity costs). Children, as well (you wouldn't believe how much money we invest in them, the diabetes-ridden illiterate bastards!) Immigrants? Well, they don't even begin to compare... so, well, I guess I do deny that as well.

Thanks, although I was kind of hoping for some links to back them up, seeing as you're so meticulous when it comes to credibility.

As for "very expensive", I mean hundreds of millions of dollars (it was in the article, so feel free to substitute any number that is more credible to you) that are spent on providing the special services the immigrants need/demand, and to trying to integrate them into the society, which most of them don't even want. Then there's the matter of their relatively very high unemployment rate.

I would be willing to support laws that somehow engourage fat people to become thinner, now that you mention it. Anyway, fat swedes and Swedish children are on the responsibility of the Swedish people and government. Foreign immigrants, however, are not.

I could not have said it better myself. That is EXACTLY what we need to do.
Create jobs, generate wealth, and open up opportunities in those countries, so there is a demand for them there, so they dont have to come here.

and how do you do that without compromising your own economy?

and if doctors/garbage men are moving from Africa/Turkey to Europe why should we care?

and how do you do that without compromising your own economy?
You invest in infrastrucutre in countries that need it. Build businesses there to sell to those markets, ect. Perhaps give loans that DIRECTLY invest/pay for basic/needed infrasctucture of that country in question. Assasinate corrupt officials who pocket the money and prevent progress of the country. You know, the usual.:)

Has this paper been caught for fabricating interviews previously? If not, this is nothing but your prejudices talking. You may be right, but that is just an assumption and cannot therefore be used as an argument. Not that it matters anymore, because other similar links to non-nazi sources have been provided in this thread already.

A Nazi propaganda leaflet is not a news paper and where are these sources you speak of?

As for "very expensive", I mean hundreds of millions of dollars (it was in the article, so feel free to substitute any number that is more credible to you) that are spent on providing the special services the immigrants need/demand, and to trying to integrate them into the society, which most of them don't even want. Then there's the matter of their relatively very high unemployment rate.

well Immigration makes billions so its actually profitable also where are you getting these unemployment figures from? (seriously everyone needs garbage men and Europeans are fussy about touching trash)

Anyway, fat swedes and Swedish children are on the responsibility of the Swedish people and government. Foreign immigrants, however, are not.

if they pay taxes and (most importantly) have Swedish citizenship then they are Swedish

You invest in infrastrucutre in countries that need it. Build businesses there to sell to those markets, ect. Perhaps give loans that DIRECTLY invest/pay for basic/needed infrasctucture of that country in question. Assasinate corrupt officials who pocket the money and prevent progress of the country. You know, the usual.:)

so what your saying is countries are poor from a lack of infrastructure?

well the news is that there isn't any markets left and rich nations still have unemployment (not enough jobs to go round sadly) you also neglect the fact of paying for all of this

Reading through this thread shows exactly why we cannot have a sensible debate about immigration.

Any criticism of the 'multi-cultural' idea , and the supporters of multi-culturalism shout RACIST RACIST NAZI NAZI HITLER HITLER GAS CHAMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in varying order, as loudly as they can just to drown out the critical voice.

what most people want is a proper debate about immigration and even some of the more right wing people I work with(they think Hitler was a bleeding heart lefty BTW:eek:) say

Yes to controlled immigration
Yes to geniune refugees
Yes to students coming here to study
and NO to illegal immigration and throw out any found.

The longer the powers in charge follow their own fantisies regarding immigration ( the sort who just love going to a ethnic food store in London, but would scream in horror when the shop keeper moves next door to them)
the more intolerant and violent the backlash against innocent minority groups will be.

It isn't mulitculturism. These folks are assimilating into the Canadian culture, the Canadian life style, and the Canadian way of living and working. They are becoming, or have become Canadian.

No. If that was what I observed, I would have said so. The Hassidic guy buying the falafel is dressed in the traditional hassidic style, cylindrical fur hat and all. The Muslims guy who I worked with in the Italian restaurant had arrived from Pakistan less than a year before. The Korean guy who runs the store on the corner really doesn't speak english or french. We point and look at the numbers on the cash register for transactions. This is not assimilation. It is an ongoing successful experiment in multiculturalism that has been going on for many, many years.

Multiculturalism works in Canada. I have observed it. The theory that multicultrualism has never worked is no longer valid, unless you can show that my observations have been incorrect.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

More about Malmo and Sweden...for a NON-NAZI SOURCE. Jesus Christ. People will scream anytihng just to drown out the arguement (LOOKING AT YOU, FASS).

Immigrants are “waging war” against Swedes through robbery

The wave of robberies the city of Malmö has witnessed during this past year is part of a “war against the Swedes.” This is the explanation given by young robbers from immigrant backgrounds when questioned about why they only rob native Swedes, in interviews with Petra Åkesson for her thesis in sociology. “I read a report about young robbers in Stockholm and Malmö and wanted to know why they rob other youths. It usually does not involve a lot of money,” she says. She interviewed boys between 15 and 17 years old, both individually and in groups.

Almost 90% of all robberies reported to the police were committed by gangs, not individuals. “When we are in the city and robbing we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes.” This argument was repeated several times. “Power for me means that the Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet.” The boys explain, laughingly, that “there is a thrilling sensation in your body when you’re robbing, you feel satisfied and happy, it feels as if you’ve succeeded, it simply feels good.” “It’s so easy to rob Swedes, so easy.” “We rob every single day, as often as we want to, whenever we want to.” The immigrant youth regard the Swedes as stupid and cowardly: “The Swedes don’t do anything, they just give us the stuff. They’re so wimpy.” The young robbers do not plan their crimes: “No, we just see some Swedes that look rich or have nice mobile phones and then we rob them.”

Why do they hate the Swedes so much? “Well, they hate us,” Petra Åkesson reports them as answering. “When a Swede goes shopping, the lady behind the counter gives him the money back into his hand, looks into his eyes and laughs. When we go shopping, she puts the money on the counter and looks the other way.” Åkesson, who is adopted from Sri Lanka and hence does not look like a native Swede, says it was not difficult to get the boys to talk about their crimes. Rather they were bragging about who had committed the most robberies. Malin Åkerström,a professor in sociology, sees only one solution to the problem: “Jobs for everybody. If this entails a deregulation of the labor market to create more jobs, then we should do so.”

It is interesting to note that these Muslim immigrants state quite openly that they are involved in a “war,” and see participation in crime and harassment of the native population as such. This is completely in line with what I have posited before. The number of rape charges in Sweden has quadrupled in just above twenty years. Rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six times as common today as they were a generation ago. Most other kinds of violent crime have rapidly increased, too. Instability is spreading to most urban and suburban areas. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or from foreign parents. The phenomenon is not restricted to Sweden. The number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in Western nations is so extremely high that it is difficult to view these rapes as merely random acts of individuals. It resembles warfare. This is happening in most Western European countries, as well as in other non muslim countries such as India. European jails are filling up with Muslims imprisoned for robberies and all kinds of violent crimes, and Muslims bomb European civilians. One can see the mainstream media are struggling to make sense of all of this. That is because they cannot, or do not want to, see the obvious: this is exactly how an invading army would behave: rape, pillage and bombing. If many of the Muslim immigrants see themselves as conquerors in a war, it all makes perfect sense.

Malmö in Sweden, set to become the first Scandinavian city with a Muslim majority within a decade or two, has nine times as many reported robberies per capita as Copenhagen, Denmark. Yet the number one priority for the political class in Sweden during this year’s national election campaign seems to be demonizing neighboring Denmark for “xenophobia” and a “brutal” debate about Muslim immigration. During last years Jihad riots in France, Sweden’s Social Democratic Prime Minister Göran Persson criticised the way the French government handled the unrest in the country. “It feels like a very hard and confrontational approach.” Persson also rejected the idea of more local police as a “first step” in Sweden. “I don’t believe that’s the way we would choose in Sweden. To start sending out signals about strengthening the police is to break with the political line we have chosen to follow,” he said. Meanwhile, as their authorities have largely abandoned their third largest city to creeping anarchy, there is open talk among the native Swedes still remaining in Malmö of forming vigilante groups armed with baseball bats out of concern for their children’s safety. As I argued in another essay: If Arnold Schwarzenegger fails to get re-elected as Governor of California he may like to do a sequel to “Conan the Barbarian.” He could shoot it in Malmö. He will get the extras for free.

What happened to the famous Swedish nanny state, you say? Don’t Swedes pay the highest tax rates in the world? Yes, they do. But tens of billions of kroner, some say several hundred billions, are being spent every year on propping up rapidly growing communities of Muslim immigrants. Sweden has become the entire world’s welfare office, because the political elites have decided that massive Muslim immigration is “good for the economy.” Soon Sweden’s “army” may comprise no more than 5,000 men, five thousand troops to defend a nation more than three times the area of England. Moreover, it may take up to a year to assemble all of them, provided they are not on peacekeeping missions abroad. That Sweden might soon need a little peacekeeping at home seems to escape the establishment. In 2006 the celebrated Swedish welfare state has become the world’s largest pyramid scheme, an Enron with a national flag.

Although Sweden is an extreme example, similar stories could be told about much of Western Europe. As Mark Steyn points out, the Jihad in the streets of France looked like the early skirmishes of an impending Eurabian civil war, brought on by massive Muslim immigration and Multicultural stupidity. Law and order is slowly breaking down in major and even minor cities across the European continent, and the streets are ruled by aggressive gangs of Muslim youngsters. At the same time, Europeans are paying some of the highest taxes in the world. We should remind our authorities that the most important task of the state – some would even claim it should be the only task of the state – is to uphold the rule of law in exchange for taxation. Since it is becoming pretty obvious that this is no longer the case in Eurabia, we should question whether these taxes are still legitimate, or whether they are simply disguised Jizya paid in the form of welfare to Muslims and our new Eurocrat aristocracy. Although not exactly the Boston Tea Party, perhaps the time has now come for a pan-European tax rebellion: We will no longer pay taxes until our authorities restore law and order and close the borders to Muslim immigration.

This is urgent. When enough people feel that the system is no longer working and that the social contract has been breached, the entire fabric of democratic society could unravel. What happens when the welfare state system breaks down, and there is no longer enough money to “grease” the increasing tensions between immigrants and native Europeans? And what happens when people discover that their own leaders, through the EU networks and the Euro-Arab Dialogue described by Bat Ye’or in her book “Eurabia,” have been encouraging all these Muslims to settle here in the first place? There will be massive unemployment, and tens of millions of people will feel angry, scared and humiliated, betrayed by the system, by society and by their own democratic leaders. This is a situation in some ways similar to the Great Depression that led to the rise of the Nazis in the 1930s. Is this where we are heading once again, with fear, rising Fascism and political assassinations? The difference is that the “Jewish threat” in the 1930s was entirely fictional, whereas the “Islamic threat” now is very real. However, it is precisely the trauma caused by the events of 70 years ago that is clouding our judgement this time, since any talk at all about the threat posed by Muslim immigration or about preserving our own culture is being dismissed as “the same rhetoric as the Nazis used against the Jews.” Europeans have been taught to be so scared of our own shadows that we are incapable of seeing that darkness can come from the outside, too. Maybe Europe will burn again, in part as a belated reaction to the horrors of Auschwitz.

PLEASE READ IT! EVERYONE! Even more so the last paragraph!

Has this paper been caught for fabricating interviews previously?

Yes, they have! Just like they've been caught making figures up. Just like they've been caught distorting actual true stories. For, you see, it's not a real newspaper with standards for ethics and fact checking and reliability and truthfulness. It's a propaganda piece for a Nazi party. You'll find more credible things in Weekly World News and its stories about mermaids and UFOs and bat children than you will in this "paper," as it calls itself.

If not, this is nothing but your prejudices talking. You may be right, but that is just an assumption and cannot therefore be used as an argument. Not that it matters anymore, because other similar links to non-nazi sources have been provided in this thread already.

Yeah, to Intarwebs bloggers...

Thanks, although I was kind of hoping for some links to back them up, seeing as you're so meticulous when it comes to credibility.

http://www.bra.se/ *yawn*

As for "very expensive", I mean hundreds of millions of dollars (it was in the article, so feel free to substitute any number that is more credible to you)

We don't use dollars in this country, you know...

that are spent on providing the special services the immigrants need/demand, and to trying to integrate them into the society, which most of them don't even want. Then there's the matter of their relatively very high unemployment rate.

The article is uncorroborated crap by people who have a vested interest in vilifying immigrants/Jews/homosexuals/non-white people/non-Christians/people who don't buy their crap and so on, and even if the figure were true, it still wouldn't even begin to compare with what other things cost the Swedish government, so even then they wouldn't be "very expensive." Unless of course one is a xenophobic douche who would find any figure, no matter how insignificant compared to other government costs, "very expensive" when it comes to the objects of one's bigotry.

I would be willing to support laws that somehow engourage fat people to become thinner, now that you mention it. Anyway, fat swedes and Swedish children are on the responsibility of the Swedish people and government.

As are immigrants. As are the disabled. As is basically anyone who lives in this country, if one is to take account of the constitution, which we of course do:

"The personal, economic and cultural welfare of the private person shall be fundamental aims of public activity."

Foreign immigrants, however, are not.

And you are exactly who to dictate to the democratically elected Swedish government what its responsibilities are? You are exactly who to tell Sweden whom its citizens should or should not show solidarity with? You are exactly who that we should give a shit about?

Reading through this thread shows exactly why we cannot have a sensible debate about immigration.

Any criticism of the 'multi-cultural' idea , and the supporters of multi-culturalism shout RACIST RACIST NAZI NAZI HITLER HITLER GAS CHAMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in varying order, as loudly as they can just to drown out the critical voice.

what most people want is a proper debate about immigration and even some of the more right wing people I work with(they think Hitler was a bleeding heart lefty BTW:eek:) say

Yes to controlled immigration
Yes to geniune refugees
Yes to students coming here to study
and NO to illegal immigration and throw out any found.

The longer the powers in charge follow their own fantisies regarding immigration ( the sort who just love going to a ethnic food store in London, but would scream in horror when the shop keeper moves next door to them)
the more intolerant and violent the backlash against innocent minority groups will be.
EXACTLY!!!!! Look at my post above. The last paragraph shows exactly what you are talking about.
so what your saying is countries are poor from a lack of infrastructure?

well the news is that there isn't any markets left and rich nations still have unemployment (not enough jobs to go round sadly) you also neglect the fact of paying for all of this
Its a lack of opportunities for work. Infrastrucutre provides jobs, generates wealth, and raises the standard of living.

There are markets left. The markets are to use 3rd world production and pay them for it.

Reading through this thread shows exactly why we cannot have a sensible debate about immigration.

Any criticism of the 'multi-cultural' idea , and the supporters of multi-culturalism shout RACIST RACIST NAZI NAZI HITLER HITLER GAS CHAMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in varying order, as loudly as they can just to drown out the critical voice.

I think the cause was the Nazi newspaper or maybe the unsupported accusation of much greater rape

also the uno-cultural idea has absolutely no weight behind it at all unless you happen to find a country that isn't already a blend of cultures

Yes, they have! Just like they've been caught making figures up. Just like they've been caught distorting actual true stories. For, you see, it's not a real newspaper with standards for ethics and fact checking and reliability and truthfulness. It's a propaganda piece for a Nazi party. You'll find more credible things in Weekly World News and its stories about mermaids and UFOs and bat children than you will in this "paper," as it calls itself.
Prove it. Prove that they fabricated something. And anyway, this stuff has been shown from various sources.


http://www.bra.se/ *yawn*
That doesnt actually say anything to do with what we were talking about. It doesnt even connect ethnicity with crime....Its totally irrelevant.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

More about Malmo and Sweden...for a NON-NAZI SOURCE. Jesus Christ. People will scream anytihng just to drown out the arguement (LOOKING AT YOU, FASS).

Yay, another on blog on teh intarwebs. :rolleyes: Here's another one: www.perezhilton.com

Prove it. Prove that they fabricated something.

And here you are again, not capable of speaking Swedish and thus incapable of reading what they've written in the other "articles."

And anyway, this stuff has been shown from various sources.

Yes, your "sources." Which we've seen the quality of...

That doesnt actually say anything to do with what we were talking about. It doesnt even connect ethnicity with crime....Its totally irrelevant.

And that's why the article you mentioned is bullshit (well, apart from being a Nazi fabrication) - BRÅ, which "producerar även den officiella kriminalstatistiken" does not connect ethnicity with crime. Because ethnicity is irrelevant to crime.

SNIP

Kids are stealing well not really kids are bragging that they are stealing to someone they can show off too, big fucking deal bears shit in the woods!

and no unskilled labour if there was a market left to have would be already used by China or India to provide jobs for there unemployed (unless of course your hoping that the workers of these factories will buy there own products and somehow make money doing this)

And here you are again,
Right, so you cant back it up that they post fake articles.

And that's why the article you mentioned is bullshit - BRÅ, which "producerar även den officiella kriminalstatistiken" does not connect ethnicity with crime. Because ethnicity is irrelevant to crime.
No, its not. In fact, Sweden seems to be the only country in the world that is so retarded and, UGH, politically correct that it doesnt show ethnic-crime statistics.

and no unskilled labour if there was a market left to have would be already used by China or India to provide jobs for there unemployed (unless of course your hoping that the workers of these factories will buy there own products and somehow make money doing this)
Employers pay them for what they devolp, employees take this money to buy the products. This is the circle of capitalism.

Prove it. Prove that they fabricated something. And anyway, this stuff has been shown from various sources.



That doesnt actually say anything to do with what we were talking about. It doesnt even connect ethnicity with crime....Its totally irrelevant.

errr.... what about this previous post, unless we all beleive that Mandela want to kill all white people:

I like that when Nelson Mandela is claimed to sing "kill white people," in the pictures he has a white man standing by him apparently not really reacting to Mr Mandela as a person who just sang that he wanted to kill him.

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/_bilder/Mand3.gif

Really, it's BS propaganda of the most transparent, and poorly devised kind.

Right, so you cant back it up that they post fake articles.

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/?sida=artikel&aID=370

Connect this article with the pertinent crime statistic (can you figure out what sort of crime they're talking about?) over at BRÅ (do they even have a statistic for it?)

No, its not. In fact, Sweden seems to be the only country in the world that is so retarded and, UGH, politically correct that it doesnt show ethnic-crime statistics.

*yawn*

"I statistiken över personer lagförda för brott redovisas de personer som under ett kalenderår befunnits skyldiga till brott genom fällande dom i tingsrätt eller genom så kallad lagföring utanför domstol (av åklagaren utfärdat strafföreläggande eller åtalsunderlåtelse). Ordningsbot som utfärdas av polis och tull ingår inte i statistiken utan redovisas separat. En person kan lagföras vid flera tillfällen under ett kalenderår och räknas då flera gånger i statistiken (bruttoredovisning).

Redovisningen av de lagförda personerna i statistiken sker efter typ av påföljd och brott och efter de lagförda personernas kön, ålder och tidigare brottsbelastning. En person kan lagföras för flera brott i en lagföring och redovisningen av brott ges därför enligt huvudbrottsprincipen. Detta innebär att endast det grövsta brottet redovisas i statistiken i de fall en person har flera brott i en lagföring. Samma princip gäller för redovisningen av påföljder. Det vill säga att bara den mest ingripande påföljden redovisas i statistiken om domstolen dömt en person till flera olika påföljder. Statistiken över lagförda personer redovisas för hela landet och länsvis samt efter den tingsrätt eller åklagarmyndighet där lagföringsbeslutet tagits.

Statistiken över personer lagförda för brott belyser strukturen, omfattningen och utvecklingen av den brottslighet som kan konstateras genom lagföringsbeslut. Statistiken ger en bild av påföljdernas inriktning och omfattning och används främst till att följa förändringar i påföljdsutvecklingen. Statistiken redovisar dessutom hur de lagförda personerna fördelar sig på ålder, kön och efter olika regionala indelningar."

A Nazi propaganda leaflet is not a news paper and where are these sources you speak of?

TAI posted this one: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/271dgkju.asp

And it doesn't matter what you call it, the point remains.


well Immigration makes billions so its actually profitable also where are you getting these unemployment figures from? (seriously everyone needs garbage men and Europeans are fussy about touching trash)

How does immigration make billions? Lots of labor? There are plenty of unemployed native Europeans, and if they don't want to work, that can be solved with some legislation changes.

A quick googling revealed a few sources:

http://www.providentfinancial.com/plc/Newsroom/News_releases/19-Jul-2006_-_Initiative_set_to_tackle_unemployment_amongst_Bradfords_ethnic_minorities.aspx
"2003 Census statistics revealed that ethnic minority unemployment in Bradford is around 2.5 times that of the white population rate."

http://www.palkkatyolainen.fi/pt2001/pt0102/p010306-t2.html (in Finnish)
(Translated by me) "Last november 31% of immigrants were unemployed [in Finland]."
"The most employed are the English-speakers, who have come into the country with a work permit."
"The worst off are the Somalians, with 66% unemployment rate, and the Russians, with 45%."

http://www.kauppapolitiikka.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=37192 (also in Finnish)
"77% of [Sweden's] population was employed; for immigrants, the number was 59%. Those born abroad had a three times higher unemployment rate than that of those who were born in Sweden."

So the unemployment of immigrants is a commonly known fact. Whether it's because they can't/won't work, or because racist employers won't give them work, it doesn't matter. The fact is that they are supported by Swedish money.

if they pay taxes and (most importantly) have Swedish citizenship then they are Swedish

So says the law, but do the immigrants themselves agree? After all, most cultural clashes are not caused by citizenship. They're caused by disagreements between cultures, and the unwillingness of many immigrants to not be assimilated.

Any criticism of the 'multi-cultural' idea , and the supporters of multi-culturalism shout RACIST RACIST NAZI NAZI HITLER HITLER GAS CHAMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in varying order, as loudly as they can just to drown out the critical voice.

The article is by Nazis. So your point is...?

What can I say? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11592157&postcount=73)

Employers pay them for what they devolp, employees take this money to buy the products. This is the circle of capitalism.

no if a boss gives his worker 5Kr and his worker buys (at best) 5Kr worth of goods how the hell is he making profit in fact he’s losing money because he has to run the factory!?!

Capitalism works in a nutshell by having one person losing and one person gaining (workers always lose in pay though otherwise the factory owner wouldn’t make any money!)

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

More about Malmo and Sweden...for a NON-NAZI SOURCE. Jesus Christ. People will scream anytihng just to drown out the arguement (LOOKING AT YOU, FASS).

PLEASE READ IT! EVERYONE! Even more so the last paragraph!

From the same author...

How do we defeat Islam? What are Islam's weak points, and what are ours? Ali Sina from Faith Freedom International wants to confront Islam by education. I support and applaud his efforts, but I don't think they will solve all the problems. Quite a few hardcore Islamists have more than average education, for instance. Educating non-Muslims about Islam the way FFI and Jihad Watch are doing is thus probably more important than educating Muslims. Islam has rational components. It is an excellent warrior creed (or at least used to be) and is great as an excuse for plundering the wealth of others. But first and foremost, it is an irrational cult based on fear.

And on and on...

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/what-are-islams-weak-points.html

Yes, they have! Just like they've been caught making figures up. Just like they've been caught distorting actual true stories. For, you see, it's not a real newspaper with standards for ethics and fact checking and reliability and truthfulness. It's a propaganda piece for a Nazi party. You'll find more credible things in Weekly World News and its stories about mermaids and UFOs and bat children than you will in this "paper," as it calls itself.

In that case, never mind. but like I said, we have other sources. Unless The Weekly Standard is also done by some "intraweb's blogger".

http://www.bra.se/ *yawn*

I'm too busy to go do very deeply into that, but it seems that crimes committed by minorities/immigrants haven't been mentioned separately. Which is pretty understandable, because that would probably be against the law.

The article is uncorroborated crap by people who have a vested interest in vilifying immigrants/Jews/homosexuals/non-white people/non-Christians/people who don't buy their crap and so on, and even if the figure were true, it still wouldn't even begin to compare with what other things cost the Swedish government, so even then they wouldn't be "very expensive." Unless of course one is a xenophobic douche who would find any figure, no matter how insignificant compared to other government costs, "very expensive" when it comes to the objects of one's bigotry.

So it's ok to blow a lot of money away, if you're spending more money on something else?

And you are exactly who to dictate to the democratically elected Swedish government what its responsibilities are? You are exactly who to tell Sweden whom its citizens should or should not show solidarity with? You are exactly who that we should give a shit about?

By definition, any country is not responsible for the welfare of anyone except its own people. If you choose to support the immigrants anyway, go ahead.

No. Its in english, and I hear about immigration in Scandinavian all the time. I didnt bother to search around the rest of the site, becuase the thing I wanted was in English. Why would I go look around for other things?:rolleyes:


Especially things that might contradict the agenda you approached the whole thing with. Selective reading etc.

As for the article, seems like some swedish police officers are using some fuzzy logic.
City has a lot of crime
City has a lot of immigrants
Immigrants are criminals.

While I can see that is fuzzy logic, what isnt fair is when you can no longer criticise the immigration policy for fear of your job.

By definition, any country is not responsible for the welfare of anyone except its own people.

How is that included in the definition of "country"?

No. Its in english, and I hear about immigration in Scandinavian all the time. I didnt bother to search around the rest of the site, becuase the thing I wanted was in English. Why would I go look around for other things?:rolleyes:

Um because you are using it as a source for an argument ... the fact that all your information and your argument is derived from a Nazi mouthpiece makes it worthless

Let's trim this down to something that all of us can swallow.

1: TAI has engaged in selective reading, using a Nazi propaganda leaflet, to further convey his own rather closed-minded, and ironically pseudo-Nazi social ideals.

2: Fass' informative posting has been largely dodged in favor of idealistic dick-waving on the part of a select few posters. Never mind the fact that he's actually provided proof that the "newspaper" to which these few posters are so desperately clinging is a bona fide Nazi Propaganda Newsletter. Which, reflecting back on all of this, really goes to show just what some people are when you get right down to it.


So, what do we have? At least three posters who are sympathising with Nazi propaganda, refusing to read actual newspapers that prove this "news" is absolutely false, not giving a moment to listen to reason.

This is quite literally disgusting. I've had enough of this one.

Regardless of the source, if it is true that a policeman was fired for being racist with regard to a mere criticism of the countries immigration policy, then thats not really fair is it. To criticise immigration policies is not racist

It doesnt matter which article you take it from, and even though there are already 29329392 articles floating around this thread which criticise Swedish immigration and Malmoe, here it another from the DANISH GOVERNMENT:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4276963.stm

Denmark's immigration issue

Pia Kjaersgaard heads the Danish People's Party (DPP)
The Danish election on 8 February has turned the spotlight on the country's immigration policy.

The most enthusiastic advocate of placing restrictions on immigration, the far-right Danish People's Party (DPP), increased its support from 12% to 13.3% of the vote, moving from 22 to 24 seats in the country's 179-member parliament, the Folketing.

The party that most vocally criticised the last government's immigration restrictions, the Radical Liberals, more than doubled its support from 4% to 9.2% of the vote and has 17 seats in the new parliament, as opposed to eight in the outgoing one.

These two parties are widely seen as the election's big winners.

The Danish People's Party is a relative newcomer in Danish politics. Formed in 1996, it won 7.4% of the total vote in the March 1998 elections and took 13 seats. The 1998 elections were won by the Social Democrats and Radical Liberals, who formed a coalition government.

The Danish People's Party first became a significant player after the Conservatives and Liberals triumphed in November 2001 and formed a coalition government reliant on DPP support for a parliamentary majority.

The Liberal-Conservative government introduced what it described as Europe's strictest immigration laws in May 2002.

The right to asylum on humanitarian grounds, which had previously seen up to 60% of applications approved, was scrapped, the acceptable grounds for being granted asylum were cut to the bare minimum required under the Geneva Convention for Refugees, and social benefits for refugees were cut by 30%-40% for their first seven years in the country.

New provisions stipulated that Danish citizens could not bring a foreign spouse into the country unless both partners were aged 24 or over, passed a solvency test showing the Dane had not claimed social security for 12 months and had to lodge a bond of 53,000 kroner ($9,300).

Most importantly for Danish citizens who are themselves immigrants or second-generation immigrants, the Danish citizen has to be judged to have stronger links with Denmark than any other country.

The new laws had an almost immediate effect. Some 13,000 family reunification permits were granted in 2001, but this had fallen to fewer than 5,000 in 2003.

One effect of the new laws is that Copenhagen-based Danes with foreign spouses have been moving to the southern Swedish citizen of Malmoe at a rate of about 60 couples a month, continuing to work in the Danish capital by commuting across the Oeresund Bridge, which has since been nicknamed "the love bridge".

Sweden's Social-Democrat government has castigated the Danish government, accusing it of undermining Scandinavian solidarity, and the Danish laws have also been attacked by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and the Council of Europe's human rights commissioner.

The leader of the Danish People's Party, Pia Kjaersgaard, responded to Swedish criticism by saying: "If they want to turn Stockholm, Gothenburg or Malmoe into a Scandinavian Beirut, with clan wars, honour killings and gang rapes, let them do it. We can always put a barrier on the Oeresund Bridge."

Denmark's share of asylum applications in the three Scandinavian countries fell from 31% in 2000 to 9% in 2003, while Sweden's rose from 41% to 60% and Norway's from 28% to 31%.

Immigrants and the descendants of immigrants account for about eight per cent of Denmark's population.


Want me to find more articles for this? God...you guys are so pathetic. Multiple people have shown articles/sources that attack Swedish immigration and Malmoe, and you guys just attack ONE of the sources. Surely there must be SOMETHING going on if the Danish government is attacking Swedish immigration issue and the situation at hand in Malmoe.:rolleyes:

Another one from a Neo-Nazi source?

You're outdoing yourself this time, Atty.

It doesnt matter which article you take it from, and even though there are already 29329392 articles floating around this thread which criticise Swedish immigration and Malmoe, here it another from the DANISH GOVERNMENT:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4276963.stm



Want me to find more articles for this? God...you guys are so pathetic. Multiple people have shown articles/sources that attack Swedish immigration and Malmoe, and you guys just attack ONE of the sources. Surely there must be SOMETHING going on if the Danish government is attacking Swedish immigration issue and the situation at hand in Malmoe.:rolleyes:You are aware that in Europe, far right (what the DPP is being referred to as) is nearly indistinguishable from neo-nazi?

And since when are they part of the government? From the article you posted, the DPP isn't in the government, only tolerating it.

*snip*

An anti-immigrant party attacks liberal immigration policies... what a surprise!

:rolleyes:

Regardless of the source, if it is true that a policeman was fired for being racist with regard to a mere criticism of the countries immigration policy, then thats not really fair is it. To criticise immigration policies is not racist


To criticise immigration policies is not racist, true. But that is not why he was fired. Bengt Lindström was fired for writing racist e-mails.

http://www.thelocal.se/1706/20050705/?PHPSESSID=b48911

An excerpt:

"Withdraw your massive subsidies to all the bloody niggers in Rosengård and let Swedes who have sweated their whole lives building Sweden have their share of our prosperity. Jesus Christ, how I hate you and your damned socialist party."

If I wrote an e-mail like that to my boss, I'd get fired too.

Regardless of the source, if it is true that a policeman was fired for being racist with regard to a mere criticism of the countries immigration policy, then thats not really fair is it. To criticise immigration policies is not racist
Well, as Gift of God showed, perhaps a neo-nazi source isn't going to be truthful about the real reasons why someone has been fired...
Just a thought. It reflects slightly on the paper's credibility.

God...you guys are so pathetic.

Mm, no. You're sitting here, happily quoting from racist, bigoted, xenophobic fucking nazis - and rather than admit that hey, maybe you chose the wrong source for yet another anti-immigration thread, you stubbornly ignore it, refuse to back down from your war on immigration, stubbonly refuse to concede a single thing. No, instead, everyone else is "so pathetic."

Riiiight.

I'm interested in what is causing this wave of anti-immigration in Scandinavian countries. Is it merely a backlash against the presence of swarthy people in a formerly white society?

Another one from a Neo-Nazi source?

You're outdoing yourself this time, Atty.
No, this is from BBC, about the Dansk Folkepati...a large political party in the Danish government.
You are aware that in Europe, far right (what the DPP is being referred to as) is nearly indistinguishable from neo-nazi?

And since when are they part of the government? From the article you posted, the DPP isn't in the government, only tolerating it.
Dansk Folkeparti is not a neo-nazi party. I have researched into it. They ARE part of the government, a BIG part of the government. Danks Folkeparti rules Denmark in a coalition government.;)

No, this is from BBC, about the Dansk Folkepati...a large political party in the Danish government.

Dansk Folkeparti is not a neo-nazi party. I have researched into it. They ARE part of the government, a BIG part of the government. Danks Folkeparti rules Denmark in a coalition government.;)Then I'll call that research crap, because they aren't part of the Conservative-Liberal coalition minority government, they merely tolerate it.

"– No multicultural society has ever shown any positive development."

This is obviously wrong, unless you are going to assume that Canadian society has never shown any positive development.

Then I'll call that research crap, because they aren't part of the Conservative-Liberal coalition minority government, they merely tolerate it.
"In the 2005 parliamentary elections, it took 24 seats out of 179 (an increase of 2 seats), on 13.3% of the vote, making it the third largest party in Denmark."

They are the third biggest political party in Denmark, and your conservative liberal coalition is misguiding, because Venstre, although meaning liberal, is actually more right-wing.

When I said ruled Denmark, I didnt mean "ruled", but rather, that they are a large political party in the Danish parliament.

Anyway it doesnt really matter, my point is that this arguement against Swedish immigration/multiculturalism and Malmoe can be heard like...EVERYWHERE.

No, this is from BBC, about the Dansk Folkepati...a large political party in the Danish government.

Dansk Folkeparti is not a neo-nazi party. I have researched into it. They ARE part of the government, a BIG part of the government. Danks Folkeparti rules Denmark in a coalition government.;)

This is from the BBC, reporting on a Nationalist party (the term people's party should have given it away). Nationalism... You know... Nazism?

From Wiki
The Danish People's Party (Danish: Dansk Folkeparti) is a nationalist political party in Denmark of declared "topstyring" (authoritarian, "rule from the top", feudal). In the 2005 parliamentary elections, it took 24 seats out of 179 (an increase of 2 seats), on 13.3% of the vote, making it the third largest party in Denmark. As of 2006, the party is the third-most popular party in Denmark, following Venstre and the Social Democrats.

"In the 2005 parliamentary elections, it took 24 seats out of 179 (an increase of 2 seats), on 13.3% of the vote, making it the third largest party in Denmark."I bolded the part where it states that they are in the government.

They are the third biggest political party in Denmark, and your conservative liberal coalition is misguiding, because Venstre, although meaning liberal, is actually more right-wing.Not really. Your definition of liberal is misguiding. Liberals are typically right from center.

The Danish People's Party first became a significant player after the Conservatives and Liberals triumphed in November 2001 and formed a coalition government reliant on DPP support for a parliamentary majority.

This quote from the article posted by TAI clearly shows that Denmark is governed by a coalition formed by the Conservative and Liberal parties. They are the government. To get things passed in their legislative house, they need the DPP if they want to get a majority. Technically, the DPP is not the government, but it has a practical power over the government.

When I said ruled Denmark, I didnt mean "ruled", but rather, that they are a large political party in the Danish parliament.When you said "Danish Government" it implies "Danish Government" not the Folketing.

Anyway it doesnt really matter, my point is that this arguement against Swedish immigration/multiculturalism and Malmoe can be heard like...EVERYWHERE.True, every country has its idiots. It's hilarious to watch them band together in Strasbourg when they're usually at eachother's throats.

This is from the BBC, reporting on a Nationalist party (the term people's party should have given it away). Nationalism... You know... Nazism?

From Wiki
Yes...because nationalism=nazism....:rolleyes:
Not really. Your definition of liberal is misguiding. Liberals are typically right from center.
Fine. As long as we agree. Anyway, back to the point that there ARE problems with Swedish immigraiton/multiculturalism and Malmoe, and this can be seen from a vareity of sources.

"In the 2005 parliamentary elections, it took 24 seats out of 179 (an increase of 2 seats), on 13.3% of the vote, making it the third largest party in Denmark."
Actually 13.2%, meaning that 86.8% of people didn't vote for them.

They are the third biggest political party in Denmark, and your conservative liberal coalition is misguiding, because Venstre, although meaning liberal, is actually more right-wing.
Well, that entirely depends on the definition of liberal and conservative, doesn't it? Especially when they could be socially or economically liberal.

When I said ruled Denmark, I didnt mean "ruled", but rather, that they are a large political party in the Danish parliament.
Third largest, but not particularly large. The Danish parliament is made up of lots of small parties.

Anyway it doesnt really matter, my point is that this arguement against Swedish immigration/multiculturalism and Malmoe can be heard like...EVERYWHERE.
Convincing. Because you can find an argument for pretty much everything? Here's one from google just now:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/itmanagement/0,1000000308,39278144,00.htm

No, this is from BBC, about the Dansk Folkepati...a large political party in the Danish government.They're not part of the Danish Government.Dansk Folkeparti is not a neo-nazi party. I have researched into it.Do better research next time. DF was created fairly recently from the majority of the now deead Populist party, as well as several nationalist, National Socialist & neo-Nazi organisations. DF may not exactly be a neo-Nazi party, yet they are the party of, and was created by & from various Nazi organisations.
Every few years, they make headlines because evil little leftwing journalist find prooof that top party members are still active in local & global neo-Nazi movements.They ARE part of the government, a BIG part of the government. Danks Folkeparti rules Denmark in a coalition government.;)Denmark is rules by a coalition government. It consists of the liberals (in the classical sense) and the conservatives.

Strictly speaking, DF is supposed to be an opporsition party, but since the coalition government is a minority government, they rely on DF to fuck up the country. In practice, this gives DF far more political power than they would've had if they were part of the government. And it gives the government the opportunity to distance themselves from the more outright Nazi shit DF spews.

It wouldn't have required you to look further than the Wiki to find this out for yourself. If you're in school, I sure as hell hope you were lying about researching this, for your sake.

Yes...because nationalism=nazism....:rolleyes:

Hmm... National Socialism.


So what is an authoritarian, populist, nationalist party?

I wonder...

Fine. As long as we agree. Anyway, back to the point that there ARE problems with Swedish immigraiton/multiculturalism and Malmoe, and this can be seen from a vareity of sources.The DPP is indirectly involved in the Malmö issue, so they aren't exactly all that... "various" for lack of a better word.

No, this is from BBC, about the Dansk Folkepati...a large political party in the Danish government.

Dansk Folkeparti is not a neo-nazi party. I have researched into it. They ARE part of the government, a BIG part of the government. Danks Folkeparti rules Denmark in a coalition government.;)

1: Yeah, it's a BBC article, but the source of the "information" is still Dansk Folkeparti. And they are Neo-Nazis.

2: Similization already said what needed to be said about this one.

Hmm... National Socialism.


So what is an authoritarian, populist, nationalist party?

I wonder...
....Ok, so if all things National are linked to being Nazi, all things socialism are linked to things nazi. Fair?

--------------------

As to everyone to jumped on me for the Danish Government thing. I know about the different parties in Denmark, and I didnt mean it ruled. I meant it TOOK part in the ruling of Denmark, because Denmark has a parliament and, as the 3rd biggest party, Dansk Folkeparti holds alot of seats.

I'm sorry if what i said didnt come out right, but that ^ is what I meant.

....Ok, so if all things National are linked to being Nazi, all things socialism are linked to things nazi. Fair?

How about all things Nationalist, Populist (in Poli Sci terms, that means leftist economically, and rightist socially, in case that went over your head), and Authoritarian with a strong racist bias are considered to be Nazi?

I'll also point out that the Nazi's weren't really socialist, per se, but that they were nationalists.

Either way, this party is a Nazi party, and you are being disengenuous to cover up for the fact that you've cited yet another Nazi source to support your claims.

Dansk Folkeparti is not a neo-nazi party. I have researched into it. They ARE part of the government, a BIG part of the government. Danks Folkeparti rules Denmark in a coalition government.;)

When I said ruled Denmark, I didnt mean "ruled", but rather, that they are a large political party in the Danish parliament.

So, when you said, erroneously of course since you apparently have little to no clue about Scandinavian politics whatsoever, that Dansk Folkeparti was "part of the government, a BIG part of the government. Danks Folkeparti [sic!] rules Denmark in a coalition government" you actually said "no, they're not part of the coalition government." Despite this meticulous "research" of yours?

Oh, come now. How long are you going to keep this charade up? It's not fooling anyone. To use your favourite word, it's getting kind of pathetic. No, scratch that. It's getting really pathetic - going from quoting Nazis and not owning up to it, to straight out lying and then when caught in the lie, not owning up to it once again.

It reminds me of when Deep Kimchi was caught plagiarising and blamed the person who caught him...

The article is by Nazis. So your point is...?

Exactly the point you are missing


By shouting down the critics as Nazi's and racists, you are failing to engage them in debate to find a better way forward.

to take an extreme example

The aztecs are being oppressed and enslaved by Spain, groups of them manage to flee to modern day europe (bit of an extreme trip but hey this is just a thought exercise)

They want to carry on their cultural and relegious beliefs in human sacrifice
In the name of 'multi-cultralism' do we let them? or do they have to abide by the culture and religious practises of the country they've settled in?

If we ban it, we're nazi's and racists, if we let them do it, we're aiding in murder.

ok the above is an extreme example, but do we not apply laws of our countries to minority groups incase we 'offend' these minorities.
How far should the majority go in accomdating minority groups?

This is what should be debated. not one group stands in the corner shouting NAZI NAZI NAZI to anyone who dares criticise their beliefs

El-Presidente Boris


<<told one guy at work after he called a black guy a < deleted in the name of good taste>
'You were happy enough to sing the guys name after he scored for the local football club, now he's a <deleted>?'

By shouting down the critics as Nazi's and racists, you are failing to engage them in debate to find a better way forward.
Look, it's not like these right-wing populist groups are actually making real arguments. It's not like they're saying "Hey, we can work this out."

Their leaders are saying 'they take our jobs, they rape our women, and they're just generally barbarian scum. Sweden is only for white people!'

While I agree with you when you say that a better way needs to be found, and that it is not acceptable that there are women out there who spend their days locked away by abusive families or that people have to fear death threats for saying something - engaging with right-wing populists is not going to help whatsoever.

By shouting down the critics as Nazi's and racists,

These people are Nazis and racists. They're part of a Nazi party that calls themselves a Nazi party. Your point is...?

Exactly the point you are missing


By shouting down the critics as Nazi's and racists, you are failing to engage them in debate to find a better way forward.

to take an extreme example

The aztecs are being oppressed and enslaved by Spain, groups of them manage to flee to modern day europe (bit of an extreme trip but hey this is just a thought exercise)

They want to carry on their cultural and relegious beliefs in human sacrifice
In the name of 'multi-cultralism' do we let them? or do they have to abide by the culture and religious practises of the country they've settled in?

If we ban it, we're nazi's and racists, if we let them do it, we're aiding in murder.

ok the above is an extreme example, but do we not apply laws of our countries to minority groups incase we 'offend' these minorities.
How far should the majority go in accomdating minority groups?

This is what should be debated. not one group stands in the corner shouting NAZI NAZI NAZI to anyone who dares criticise their beliefs

El-Presidente Boris


<<told one guy at work after he called a black guy a < deleted in the name of good taste>
'You were happy enough to sing the guys name after he scored for the local football club, now he's a <deleted>?'

This is not "Shouting down because they are Nazi" this was not an example of using emotive language to clasify a dissenter

The poster you quoted was making a FACTUAL statement.

The paper that was quoted in the OP was written and published by the Nazi party.

If this was just someone using emotive language to classify an opposing viewpoint with the Nazi name I would agree with you, thats not what happened here.

1) To Atlantic: You have the right to your own opinion, BUT don't try to validate the Nazi article to 'defend your honour' unless you don't mind that others view you as a Nazi. State your opinion on immigration, and move on, stop bringing up the same Nazi article, it is biased, racist, propaganda.

2) Multicultural societies, as another user pointed out, have the potential to be very open, successful societies. Example: Canada (where I live) is a very successful bilingual, multicultural society. NZ, UK, and Australia I believe are also successful multicultural nations (if you live there and know otherwise feel free to contribute). The key to multiculturalism is TOLERANCE, acceptance, and equity. If one culture will not, or cannot tolerate or accept another culture living with or amongst them, multiculturalism will not be successful. The community will become divided, and their will be a lack of trust. I'd like to think that everyone is capable of tolerating the cultural differences of others.

"I statistiken över personer lagförda för brott redovisas de personer som under ett kalenderår befunnits skyldiga till brott genom fällande dom i tingsrätt eller genom så kallad lagföring utanför domstol (av åklagaren utfärdat strafföreläggande eller åtalsunderlåtelse). Ordningsbot som utfärdas av polis och tull ingår inte i statistiken utan redovisas separat. En person kan lagföras vid flera tillfällen under ett kalenderår och räknas då flera gånger i statistiken (bruttoredovisning).

Redovisningen av de lagförda personerna i statistiken sker efter typ av påföljd och brott och efter de lagförda personernas kön, ålder och tidigare brottsbelastning. En person kan lagföras för flera brott i en lagföring och redovisningen av brott ges därför enligt huvudbrottsprincipen. Detta innebär att endast det grövsta brottet redovisas i statistiken i de fall en person har flera brott i en lagföring. Samma princip gäller för redovisningen av påföljder. Det vill säga att bara den mest ingripande påföljden redovisas i statistiken om domstolen dömt en person till flera olika påföljder. Statistiken över lagförda personer redovisas för hela landet och länsvis samt efter den tingsrätt eller åklagarmyndighet där lagföringsbeslutet tagits.

Statistiken över personer lagförda för brott belyser strukturen, omfattningen och utvecklingen av den brottslighet som kan konstateras genom lagföringsbeslut. Statistiken ger en bild av påföljdernas inriktning och omfattning och används främst till att följa förändringar i påföljdsutvecklingen. Statistiken redovisar dessutom hur de lagförda personerna fördelar sig på ålder, kön och efter olika regionala indelningar."
It seems to have eluded you that most here do not speak Swedish. In English, if you will.

Fine. As long as we agree. Anyway, back to the point that there ARE problems with Swedish immigraiton/multiculturalism and Malmoe, and this can be seen from a vareity of sources.

I wonder what the economic status of most people living in Malmoe is?

I would imagine that most folks living there are not as well off as your average swede.

Do you think it might be possible that the problems might have something to do with the socioeconomic status of the population there rather than their ethnic background?

People who steal stuff tend to not have stuff of their own. Its not usually because its their cultural background.

I would be betting that there is a really good correlation between being poor and being an immigrant. And that there is a really good correlation between being poor and being desperate enough to be involved with crime.

I can see his point thats its tough to reach out and look after people that haven't contributed to the prosperity that enables you to reach out to them. But if you don't, then you can expect this kind of thing to happen. Its a matter of being the lesser of two evils. Maybe it would be easier to shut your doors and ignore the rest of the world.

Its terrible that the elderly are having a hard time and it would be wonderful if you could shelter everyone from hardship but as the world becomes a smaller place the hardships of the rest of the world will be brought closer to your doorstep.

I would be suprised if it is really so much of a clash of cultures as it is a clash of classes....

I wonder what the economic status of most people living in Malmoe is?

From the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmo%2C_Sweden#Demographics)

Malmö still has comparatively high unemployment figures, particularly among the ethnically and socially diverse areas in the eastern and southern parts

It's like when people try to claim that Detroit has so much crime because people there are black, not because they're poor.

It seems to have eluded you that most here do not speak Swedish. In English, if you will.

Wanna talk Sweden? Wanna claim to "know" oh, so much and have done oh, so much "research?" Learn Swedish. Before then, you don't know jack, as the OP's believing a Nazi mouth piece proves.

I think you underestimate British colonialism on this one unless your referring to children under 2 :D


You took this completly out of context. I was talking about immigrants in the US, not British Colonialism.

Yes, they have! Just like they've been caught making figures up. Just like they've been caught distorting actual true stories. For, you see, it's not a real newspaper with standards for ethics and fact checking and reliability and truthfulness. It's a propaganda piece for a Nazi party. You'll find more credible things in Weekly World News and its stories about mermaids and UFOs and bat children than you will in this "paper," as it calls itself.

So far we have only your word for this. You have not provided any sources to support your arguement. You have also ignored postings by people who have posted other links to support the story provided by the OP. So far you don't have much credability in this thread.

So far we have only your word for this. You have not provided any sources to support your arguement. You have also ignored postings by people who have posted other links to support the story provided by the OP. So far you don't have much credability in this thread.

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/

Again, it's right there to read in plain Swedish, not to mention the sites it links to on its front page - for instance "Salemfondens" nazi demonstration to be held in Salem on December 9.

Also, Expo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_%28magazine%29) - a legitimate network and paper that has worked with the Swedish government in tracking right-wing extremists - has this to say about "Lennart Berg" who is "Chefredaktör och ansvarig utgivare" and "Folkets Nyheter:" (http://www.expo.se/index_1.php?pg=http%3A//www.expo.se/www/1_653.html)

"I dagarna har det första numret av tidningen Folkets Nyheter sett ljuset. Bakom tidningen står Svenska Media och nationaldemokraterna Lennart Berg och Björn Herstad.

I tidningens första nummer återfinns skribenter som förintelseförnekaren Lars Adelskogh och Jonas De Geer, tidigare chefredaktör för den "värdekonservativa" tidningen Salt. Han har rört sig med både nysvenskar och nationaldemokrater.

Tidningens chefredaktör är Lennart Berg, under en tid var han ledande inom den nazistiska organisationen Svenska Motståndsrörelsen där han skrev under pseudonymen Rikard Karlgren. Lennart Berg har sedan dykt upp i Nationaldemokraterna. Björn Herstad är i dag ledare för NDU i Värmland. Tidigare var han ordförande för KDU i Värmland, men kastades ut när han startade det ultrakonservativa nätverket Engelbrekt som Expo avslöjade för ett par år sedan. Nätverket hade en tydlig rasistisk underton."

See what a little actual knowledge about this subject matter would have spared your ilk?

So far we have only your word for this. You have not provided any sources to support your arguement. You have also ignored postings by people who have posted other links to support the story provided by the OP. So far you don't have much credability in this thread.

He provided the stroy claiming that Mandela wanted to kill white people. That kinda lends credibility to his position. Unless you believe Mandela wants to kill white people that is?

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/?sida=artikel&aID=408

The editor of the Nazi "paper," is Lennart Berg. An actual Nazi. Who led a Nazi party. Who is a high figure in "Nationaldemokraterna." Whose "paper" this is.

Google helped me find this:
http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/White_Supremacy/new_orleans_052005.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News
A significant number of politically affiliated European racists addressed the crowd, including Nick Griffin and Simon Darby from the far-right British National Party, Karl Richter and Marcus Haverkamp from Germany's far-right National Democratic Party (NPD), Vavra Suk and Lennart Berg of Sweden,

I will examine the other sources as time permits.

Wanna talk Sweden? Wanna claim to "know" oh, so much and have done oh, so much "research?" Learn Swedish. Before then, you don't know jack, as the OP's believing a Nazi mouth piece proves.

Again, it's right there to read in plain Swedish, not to mention the sites it links to on its front page - for instance "Salemfondens" nazi demonstration to be held in Salem on December 9.


http://bologh.blogspot.com/

This blog has some (potentially) interesting articles. They (probably) have nothing to do with the issue, and they're in Klingon, but hey, if you don't speak Klingon, your opinion doesn't matter anyway.

http://bologh.blogspot.com/

This blog has some (potentially) interesting articles. They (probably) have nothing to do with the issue, and they're in Klingon, but hey, if you don't speak Klingon, your opinion doesn't matter anyway.

And Klingon is relevant to Sweden, where we speak Swedish, in what sense? Not that that blog seems to mention anything about Sweden at all.

http://michellemalkin.com/immigratio...05/07/08:59.am

Here is the next one. It is an article apparently written by David Orland, apparently a french blogger with an anti-immigration agenda. Here is his blog:
http://fautedepire.blogspot.com/
Michelle Malkin, of course, is a US blogger with an anti-immigration agenda.
Mind you, neither are Swedes, so enter Fjordman, a Swedish blogger with an anti-immigration agenda.
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/08/will-muslim-immigration-trigger-wars.html

I was unable to find Fjordman's original blog, so I was unable to verify any of the claims (s)he has made in this article.

And Klingon is relevant to Sweden, where we speak Swedish, in what sense?

In no sense at all, and neither is Swedish. My point is that it is possible to find information about Sweden in other languages than Swedish, and claiming that only Swedish-speakers are allowed to talk about Sweden is about as reasonable as claiming that only Klingon-speakers are allowed to talk about Sweden. Furthermore, we are talking about immigration in Sweden, and that topic has nothing to do whatsoever with the Swedish language.

In other words, posting stuff in Swedish only makes it look like that you don't even want us to know what those articles say. That kind of strategy doesn't exactly earn you points in a debate.

http://michellemalkin.com/immigratio...05/07/08:59.am

Here is the next one. It is an article apparently written by David Orland, apparently a french blogger with an anti-immigration agenda. Here is his blog:
http://fautedepire.blogspot.com/
Michelle Malkin, of course, is a US blogger with an anti-immigration agenda.
Mind you, neither are Swedes, so enter Fjordman, a Swedish blogger with an anti-immigration agenda.
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/08/will-muslim-immigration-trigger-wars.html

I was unable to find Fjordman's original blog, so I was unable to verify any of the claims (s)he has made in this article.

Fjordman isn't Swedish, though. He's Norwegian. But the rest is true, in it being a bunch of xenophobic bloggers referencing each other. That's the greatness of the Internet - a bunch of idiots can form a clique and claim credibility and legitimacy for one another, and thus fool those less prone to not believing things written on-line and especially in, of all places, blogs...

In no sense at all, and neither is Swedish.

You do understand that we speak Swedish in Sweden, no?

My point is that it is possible to find information about Sweden in other languages than Swedish,

Then why quote a Swedish Nazi mouth piece whose printed language is Swedish? Why then demand Swedish crime statistics, but then bitch like a school girl who skinned her knee when actual Swedish crime statistics, or lack thereof, are presented?

and claiming that only Swedish-speakers are allowed to talk about Sweden

You can talk about Sweden in English all you want - but be prepared to actually be called on your bull with actual Swedish facts and data when you claim to know all these things and to have done this "research" about them.

is about as reasonable as claiming that only Klingon-speakers are allowed to talk about Sweden. Furthermore, we are talking about immigration in Sweden, and that topic has nothing to do whatsoever with the Swedish language. In other words, posting stuff in Swedish only makes it look like that you don't even want us to know what those articles say.

There are Swedish dictionaries all over the Internet. Also, the Swedish words for "Nazi" and "National Democrat" (i.e. Nazi) are "Nazist" and "Nationaldemokraterna." Also, there are tonnes of links to Nazi sites on that front page.

Seriously, even monolingual wretches should be able to get the hint.

That kind of strategy doesn't exactly earn you points in a debate.

You want to debate issues in my country, you don't get to disregard the actual facts about my country. Those facts will most often be in Swedish. Your lack of education in a foreign language and the country you're trying to speak of won't exactly earn you points, either.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/271dgkju.asp

An interesting editorial. It attempts to link Malmo's current population 'problem" with leftist economic policies. But here's the important point: it does not link immigration to crime and rape like the original article. It does not make the same racist claims. For example, the last few paragraphs of the editorial focus on a debate about the specific economic policies required to resolve the unemployment issues surrounding Malmo immigrants. Both economist are Chilean immigrants to Sweden.

Good editorial.

EDIT: Here's where the citation originally appeared: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988119&postcount=45

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

This article quotes Fjordman, the Norwegian anti-immigration blogger.

Again, I am unable to locate the original blog, but I was able to pull this up, which is a study done on why immigrant teenage criminals perform muggings. The english part of the abstract is on page 3.

http://www.sociologi.lu.se/krim/vi_krigar.pdf

It does little to corroborate the claims made in the OP. About the only thing it does claim is that the youths who are committing these crimes do not feel integrated in their society. I wonder if non-immigrant criminals feel integrated in their society?

who needs multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism is fine if you're dealing with civilized cultures.

I don't know what to think about this...It makes me sad to see Sweden have such problems, but I don't think it's the multiculturalism that is the problem. After all, America was a melting pot, and that didn't destroy it...:(

This article quotes Fjordman, the Norwegian anti-immigration blogger.

Again, I am unable to locate the original blog, [...]

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/

The fact that it comes up first thing when googling Fjordman, in addition to the nomen est omen URL, doesn't cast too great a light on your search skills.

Multiculturalism is fine if you're dealing with civilized cultures.

You don't think the Swedes are civilised?

2) Multicultural societies, as another user pointed out, have the potential to be very open, successful societies. Example: Canada (where I live) is a very successful bilingual, multicultural society. NZ, UK, and Australia I believe are also successful multicultural nations (if you live there and know otherwise feel free to contribute). The key to multiculturalism is TOLERANCE, acceptance, and equity. If one culture will not, or cannot tolerate or accept another culture living with or amongst them, multiculturalism will not be successful. The community will become divided, and their will be a lack of trust. I'd like to think that everyone is capable of tolerating the cultural differences of others.

When multiculturalism works it is very successful but when it goes wrong it goes very wrong. Once it has broken down it is very hard to reconcile the two groups because of distrust etc. As the two groups are quite distinct it is harder to find things on which they agree on but not impossible.

A good example would be the sectarian viloence of Northen Ireland which has badly divided communities and only now after many years are they patching things together again.

From my view the thing that causes multiculturalism to break down is two reasons: the first one is that humans generally as default mistrust strangers and this is true for both the natives and the imigrants. The second is when exceptions/preferential treatment is given (or perceived to be given) to the immigrants because of their culture or status as immigrants.

An example would be the waiting list for council housing in the UK where people given assylum jump the que. This is causes resentment in the people who were jumped, especialy the ones who are in similar circumstances (no family to fall back on, isolated) who have been on the list for years. This is also a similar reason why young (especially those below 20 years of age) single mothers are resented as well because they are given priority as well. When multiculture/immigration starts breaking down those who affected first are the ones at the bottom of the pile, the poorest in society.

Another example would be the 1/2 million poles who have moved to the UK since poland joined the EU. This has been a good thing for the economy as a whole, especially to the middle, upper classes and employers as it has kept the costs of childcare, construction and other services down. The people who are in direct competition with these new workers, e.g. builders already in the UK have not been so satisfied. One of their reasons is that it has kept a downward pressure on their wages while everyone elses wage packets have kept growing and has made it more difficult for them to get jobs.

This becomes a big problem when the ones at the top (politicians) who make immigration policy see only the good side (cheaper services such as childcare) and never experience the bad parts (having static wages due fierce competition) while the ones at the bottom experience the bad and rarely see the good parts. To get multiculturalism to work you have to make it work/benifit those at the bottom as well as the top as they are the ones whose resentment will cause it to break down.


Damn, I never thought I would be writing a post which had a socialist slant.

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/

The fact that it comes up first thing when googling Fjordman, in addition to the nomen est omen URL, doesn't cast too great a light on your search skills.

You will notice that Fjordman's editorials specifically concerning Malmo are not on that page.

http://www.info14.com/img/NSFdemo4.jpg

Yup. He basically quoted these people. Don't you just love the neo-Nazi outfits? They're so tacky, they'd be gorgeous were they ironically meant.

The editor of the Nazi "paper," is Lennart Berg. An actual Nazi. Who led a Nazi party. Who is a high figure in "Nationaldemokraterna." Whose "paper" this is.

What the hell happened to Nazis? They used to have the coolest uniforms.

You don't think the Swedes are civilised?

Of course not. Fucking viking savages.

You will notice that Fjordman's editorials specifically concerning Malmo are not on that page.

I thought that using search functions could be an expected standard, especially when not only given the topic, but even a whole paragraph, but oh well, for your convenience:


http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/10/sweden-double-standards-in-freedom-of.html

This is the page TAI referred to, and you will find he (Fjordman) links you around nicely to other Malmö comments from there.

You do understand that we speak Swedish in Sweden, no?

Certainly. But unless this issue has something to do with the Swedish language, which it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

Then why quote a Swedish Nazi mouth piece whose printed language is Swedish? Why then demand Swedish crime statistics, but then bitch like a school girl who skinned her knee when actual Swedish crime statistics, or lack thereof, are presented?

You did notice that the quoted part was in English, right?

You can talk about Sweden in English all you want - but be prepared to actually be called on your bull with actual Swedish facts and data when you claim to know all these things and to have done this "research" about them.

You're very welcome to present your facts and call "my bull", but if want others to believe you, you'd better present those facts in a language we all understand. If you can't find articles in English, translate those you post or at least the main points. It's not that difficult; I've already done it for you in two Finnish articles in this thread.

True, it's not your fault that we don't speak Swedish. But if you can't present your arguments in an understandable form, that is your fault.


There are Swedish dictionaries all over the Internet. Also, the Swedish words for "Nazi" and "National Democrat" (i.e. Nazi) are "Nazist" and "Nationaldemokraterna." Also, there are tonnes of links to Nazi sites on that front page.

Seriously, even monolingual wretches should be able to get the hint.

Yes, I realized that. Now let's see... So far you have proven that Folkets Nyheter is the Nazi party's own paper. SO FUCKING WHAT? I don't think anyone has questioned that since you first said it. I don't think anyone demanded proof of that, or if they did, they've already accepted it as a fact.

We are not here to identify Sweden's nazis. We're here to talk about immigration, in Sweden and in general, and the problems it supposedly causes. Again, you won't win arguments by calling your opponents nazis, whether it's true or not.

You want to debate issues in my country, you don't get to disregard the actual facts about my country. Those facts will most often be in Swedish. Your lack of education in a foreign language and the country you're trying to speak of won't exactly earn you points, either.

So basically your style of debate is "I know all the facts, but I won't tell. I win."

Again, we get our facts from English sources. If you feel that they are faulty or incomplete and want to correct us, you need to do so in English. You have proven yourself to be quite capable of writing in English, so I don't see what the problem is. If, on the other hand, you have no desire to correct us and are here to simply declare your omniscience without any evidence, this stupid bickering over languages will go on for the next 20 pages, while no progress is made on the immigration issue. Your choice.

I thought that using search functions could be an expected standard, especially when not only given the topic, but even a whole paragraph, but oh well, for your convenience:


http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/10/sweden-double-standards-in-freedom-of.html

This is the page TAI referred to, and you will find he (Fjordman) links you around nicely to other Malmö comments from there.

Maybe my computer is doing something weird, because your link takes me to another Fjordman blog archive about Malmo that is neither of the two that TAI quoted. If you can find them, or any information to corroborate his claims, that would be useful for resolving this debate.

Europe has condemned itself to oblivion, and it's using socialism as cicuta. I don't see them regaining the confidence, pride and ambition needed to turn around their economies, fully assimilate all the Muslims that are currently within their borders, and then pursue a much more balanced and sensible immigration policy that minimises or outright halts further Muslim entry, and replaces them with more productive and civilized people from Asia, non-Muslim Africa and Latin America.

But they'll do nothing. They won't wake up. And not before long they'll regard Hitler as a moderate, have one last bang, and then it'll be over. And that is very sad. They gave us modernity, but have rejected their own legacy. North America and East Asia will carry on the project of civilization. Europe will become a backwater - a relic of a world that is no more.

Guys, lets not get caught up on Fass' bitching. I, and other have provided other sources and articles on Malmoe and Swedish immigration, so even if the first one was from a nazi website (which it may be, but I still wouldnt have known, because its in Swedish), the discussion that we are debating still stands, because you can find shit about Malmoe and Sweden in other articles (which I and OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD have presented).

And Fass, dont make me report you to the Mods. I'm pretty sure they reamed you a new one last time about all your "posting in Swedish even though nobody understands you". Its blantant trolling. Swedish simply is not a globally important language, so dont be suprised if people outside of Sweden and Finland (and maybe Norway and Denmark) dont speak it. Stop trolling my thread.

Maybe my computer is doing something weird, because your link takes me to another Fjordman blog archive about Malmo that is neither of the two that TAI quoted. If you can find them, or any information to corroborate his claims, that would be useful for resolving this debate.

I'm sorry, I might have messed something up with multiple browser windows here.

Exhibit A (http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/05/is-swedish-democracy-collapsing.html)) : The fifth paragraph is what TAI quoted here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988006&postcount=38), and that was what I was referring to (or tried to;] ) earlier.

I must have missed it if he quoted Fjordman someplace else in the thread, too.

Europe has condemned itself to oblivion, and it's using socialism as cicuta. I don't see them regaining the confidence, pride and ambition needed to turn around their economies, fully assimilate all the Muslims that are currently within their borders, and then pursue a much more balanced and sensible immigration policy that minimises or outright halts further Muslim entry, and replaces them with more productive and civilized people from Asia, non-Muslim Africa and Latin America.

But they'll do nothing. They won't wake up. And not before long they'll regard Hitler as a moderate, have one last bang, and then it'll be over. And that is very sad. They gave us modernity, but have rejected their own legacy. North America and East Asia will carry on the project of civilization. Europe will become a backwater - a relic of a world that is no more.

I certainly hope you are wrong, muslim immigrants do not number very many in the UK. They are just very vocal (mainly the nasty parts are anyway), due the war on terror the media concentrates on them even more. Generally it is blown out of all proportion. The UK econmoy is ticking along ok at the moment, though Ireland is doing much better (hint to Blair taxes don't tend to encourage econmoic growth). Our industry is pretty static at the moment with a large chunk of the population involved in services instead.

Certainly. But unless this issue has something to do with the Swedish language, which it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

You wanted Swedish facts and statistics, you got that. "Waah, but I can't read Swedish!" Tough titties.

You did notice that the quoted part was in English, right?

You did notice that it was different from the Swedish original? You did notice the "paper" was in Swedish?

You're very welcome to present your facts and call "my bull", but if want others to believe you, you'd better present those facts in a language we all understand.

The thing is, I don't need you to believe me. I could easily translate Swedish to English, but how do you trust/believe in me to have done the translation correctly? If you don't believe me that the parts in Swedish contradict your claims, why would you be more prone to believe my translation? What - I get more believable all of a sudden because I change language? Hardly. And that's why I couldn't give a shit if you don't believe me in the first place.

If you can't find articles in English, translate those you post or at least the main points. It's not that difficult; I've already done it for you in two Finnish articles in this thread.

I just dealt with that.

True, it's not your fault that we don't speak Swedish. But if you can't present your arguments in an understandable form, that is your fault.

Perchance, but it's also your fault that you've no knowledge of what you want to speak of, but rely on bloggers on the Intarwebs to have either translated things correctly or not have distorted them, which you of course can't know unless you speak Swedish.

Yes, I realized that. Now let's see... So far you have proven that Folkets Nyheter is the Nazi party's own paper. SO FUCKING WHAT? I don't think anyone has questioned that since you first said it.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991173&postcount=127

You attention to detail is astounding.

We are not here to identify Sweden's nazis. We're here to talk about immigration, in Sweden and in general, and the problems it supposedly causes. Again, you won't win arguments by calling your opponents nazis, whether it's true or not.

Actually, I did win the argument, as the source was not credible and uncorroborated. And, you're not here to discuss "immigration, in Sweden and in general, and the problems it supposedly causes" - you're here to try find someone on the Internets whose bloggish opinion you want to pose off as fact about a country whose language you don't even speak.

So basically your style of debate is "I know all the facts, but I won't tell. I win."

I linked you to BRÅ. It has tonnes of facts.

Again, we get our facts from English sources.

Precisely. Not Swedish sources, English sources. Whose translations you have to trust. Whose blogs you have to pretend aren't blogs. Whose Nazi agenda you would have remained oblivious of, if someone who does speak Swedish had not come along to point out what sort of crap you were putting your trust in. That it was in English didn't give it any additional value, now did it?

If you feel that they are faulty or incomplete and want to correct us, you need to do so in English.

No, I don't, for you see, unless you speak Swedish your opinion of Sweden is not very likely to matter, which means your delusions may persist as they are inconsequential.

You have proven yourself to be quite capable of writing in English, so I don't see what the problem is. If, on the other hand, you have no desire to correct us and are here to simply declare your omniscience without any evidence, this stupid bickering over languages will go on for the next 20 pages, while no progress is made on the immigration issue. Your choice.

I choose to watch you speak of things you know nothing of. It's amusing.

I'm sorry, I might have messed something up with multiple browser windows here.

Exhibit A (http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/05/is-swedish-democracy-collapsing.html)) : The fifth paragraph is what TAI quoted here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988006&postcount=38), and that was what I was referring to (or tried to;] ) earlier.

I must have missed it if he quoted Fjordman someplace else in the thread, too.

I probabaly made the same mistake too, for the same reason. :)

To be honest, I only want to see the original blog to see if he provides sources for his claims, and what those sources may be.

It appears to me that the immigration problem is that the immigrants are poor because of unemployment, and that this is not to much a culture clash as it is a clash between unemployed youth and a conservative police force.

Guys, lets not get caught up on Fass' bitching. I, and other have provided other sources and articles on Malmoe and Swedish immigration, so even if the first one was from a nazi website (which it may be, but I still wouldnt have known, because its in Swedish), the discussion that we are debating still stands, because you can find shit about Malmoe and Sweden in other articles (which I and OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD have presented).

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991259&postcount=133

You mean the blogs that referenced blogs that referenced blogs that referenced blogs? You mean your oh, so meticulous "research" as that of Denmark that was just utter nonsense?

And Fass, dont make me report you to the Mods. I'm pretty sure they reamed you a new one last time about all your "posting in Swedish even though nobody understands you". Its blantant trolling. Swedish simply is not a globally important language, so dont be suprised if people outside of Sweden and Finland (and maybe Norway and Denmark) dont speak it.

You do know that threatening moderator action is itself a moderable offense? You may want to think about that, while you ponder why exactly I won't have anything against you reporting me as I don't respond to threats.

Stop trolling my thread.

I'm sorry. I know how you ever so much wanted to use it to troll in yourself with your Nazi propaganda.

*Snipped trolling that I didnt read*
Are you done yet? Good, stop hijacking.

Are you done yet? Good, stop hijacking.

Stop quoting Nazis, kthnx.

Wait what?

Fass the articles are from a neo-nazi group?

Sorry TAI, but you are sounding very NY Nordland if what Fass says is true.....

Wait what?

Fass the articles are from a neo-nazi group?

Sorry TAI, but you are sounding very NY Nordland if what Fass says is true.....
It seems the first one was. Although I've yet to see anytihng in English that says so. (You see, the whole site is in Swedish, obviously except the article I posted) But it really doesnt matter, because me, and other posters have pulled up things from other sites on Swedish immigraiton and the situation in Malmoe. Fass is having a hissy fit at one of the sites, but there are multiple places other posters and I have posted articles from.

It seems the first one was. Although I've yet to see anytihng in English that says so. (You see, the whole site is in Swedish, obviously except the article I posted) But it really doesnt matter, because me, and other posters have pulled up things from other sites on Swedish immigraiton and the situation in Malmoe. Fass is having a hissy fit at one of the sites, but there are multiple places other posters and I have posted articles from.

Well, the editor is a white supremacist, as I showed in a previous post. And I have looked at all the other sources and very few of them corroborate the OP, and those that do are not themselves corroborated and are blogs.

Perhaps if you would decide on a specific issue concerning Malmo and immigration, we could discuss it.

You did notice that it was different from the Swedish original? You did notice the "paper" was in Swedish?

You mentioned that the English article had been cleaned of racist and nazist stuff. Were there some changes to the actual point of the article?

The thing is, I don't need you to believe me. I could easily translate Swedish to English, but how do you trust/believe in me to have done the translation correctly? If you don't believe me that the parts in Swedish contradict your claims, why would you be more prone to believe my translation? What - I get more believable all of a sudden because I change language? Hardly. And that's why I couldn't give a shit if you don't believe me in the first place.

It's not that you become more believable, it's that you become more understandable. Then at least we would be able to "call your bull" as you put it, or be convinced by it.

Perchance, but it's also your fault that you've no knowledge of what you want to speak of, but rely on bloggers on the Intarwebs to have either translated things correctly or not have distorted them, which you of course can't know unless you speak Swedish.

Sure I can, if someone, who considers himself to be a more qualified translator, explains it. What, you expect me to learn a whole new language every time I want to discuss things that happen in foreign countries? I know it's a lot to ask you to speak in English, but your opinions or facts don't matter if others can't understand them. That's how it works.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991173&postcount=127

You attention to detail is astounding.

I believe he was referring to the part when you said that the paper has been caught for fabrications, not to it being nazist.

Actually, I did win the argument, as the source was not credible and uncorroborated. And, you're not here to discuss "immigration, in Sweden and in general, and the problems it supposedly causes" - you're here to try find someone on the Internets whose bloggish opinion you want to pose off as fact about a country whose language you don't even speak.

Let me get this straight.... Source has a nazist bias -> Everything it says is a lie -> Immigration causes no problems. Something like that?

I linked you to BRÅ. It has tonnes of facts.

Tonnes of facts about overall crime rates in Sweden. While very interesting, I can't find any statistics about crime rates of immigrants compared to those of natives. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I also can't find a statistic that compares crime rates of different cities, which could disprove the claim that immigrant-rich cities have more crime than other parts of the country on average. So what exactly are those tonnes of facts supposed to prove?

Precisely. Not Swedish sources, English sources. Whose translations you have to trust. Whose blogs you have to pretend aren't blogs. Whose Nazi agenda you would have remained oblivious of, if someone who does speak Swedish had not come along to point out what sort of crap you were putting your trust in. That it was in English didn't give it any additional value, now did it?

First of all, I'm not a paranoid nazophobe like you. Therefore, whereas I recognize the possibility that political extremists sometimes lie, I don't automatically assume that. Also, I don't assume that all things that nazis like are always evil, or that the things nazis oppose are by definition good. If you do, you have no business talking about politics.

And if I can't trust English translations, why should I be able to trust the Swedish originals? Because Swedish sources are never blogs, and English ones always are?

No, I don't, for you see, unless you speak Swedish your opinion of Sweden is not very likely to matter, which means your delusions may persist as they are inconsequential.

Here we are at the Klingon remark again. Like I said, your opinion is not very likely to matter either, if nobody understands it.

I choose to watch you speak of things you know nothing of. It's amusing.

Then shut up and watch, or participate in a constructive manner.


My apologies to The Atlantian Islands. I'll stop this now.

Right, in the interest of debate, here's a list of sources used so far:

TAI - The initial article from the paper that Fass says is published by the Nazi party. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11987778&postcount=1)
TAI - Fjordman and Michelle Malkin (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988006&postcount=38)
Celtlund - Weekly Standard (Part of News Corporation, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch) (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/271dgkju.asp)
Cullons - The Folks Nyheter again, but asking about the credibility on an article on Nelson Mandela (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988177&postcount=47)
TAI - The Brussels Journal (also one of our forum racist's (Ny Nordland) favorite sites) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988425&postcount=68)
Fassigen - BRA, the national council of crime prevention in Sweden (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988427&postcount=69)
At this point the first "Various sources" argument that I noticed was made by TAI. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988447&postcount=72)
I'd like to point out that so far, you have two unreliable sources (Weekly Standard and Brussels Journal) and two completely unreliable sources (Folks Nyheter and Michelle Malkin/Fjordman) to corrobarate your story.
Nuovo Tenochtitlan - Attributes Celtlund's contribution to TAI, adds a report on ethnic minority unemployment in Bradford, and two sources on ethnic minority unemployment rates in Finland and Sweden (both in Finnish) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988525&postcount=80)
German Nightmare - Point out his feelings on the issue (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988541&postcount=82)
Haken Rider - Points out that I was mistaken in my first assumption that the Brussels Journal was merely unreliable (Brussels Journal associates with Fjordman) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11988586&postcount=84)
TAI - Claims there's a statement from the Danish Government in this BBC article, when in fact it's a statement by the head of the Danish People's Party, which isn't in the government (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11989029&postcount=92)
Gift-of-god - Why the policeman was really fired from the Local (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11989042&postcount=96)
New Burmesia - An article calling for more immigration in the IT sector from the ZDnet (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11989138&postcount=109)
Wallonochia - A wiki article on Malmö with the statement that crime may be because they're poor (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11990600&postcount=124)
Fassigen - Information on the Folks Nyheter (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11990600&postcount=124)
Gift-of-god - Information on the head editor of the FN, Lennart Berg (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991214&postcount=130)
Gift-of-god - Examines the Michelle Malkin/David Orland/Fjordman source submitted by TAI (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991259&postcount=133)
Gift-of-god - Examines the Weekly Standard source submitted by Celtlund (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991300&postcount=137)
Gift-of-god - Examines the Brussels Journal source submitted by TAI (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991349&postcount=138)
Oeck - Links to Fjordman's blog (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991371&postcount=141)
Oeck - Links to the Fjordman article TAI was referring to (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991432&postcount=147)
Oeck - Corrects her links (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991491&postcount=152)

Just before that:
Guys, lets not get caught up on Fass' bitching. I, and other have provided other sources and articles on Malmoe and Swedish immigration, so even if the first one was from a nazi website (which it may be, but I still wouldnt have known, because its in Swedish), the discussion that we are debating still stands, because you can find shit about Malmoe and Sweden in other articles (which I and OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD have presented).
Basically, all you have provided so far are sources from either a Nazi paper (which has been corroborated with English speaking sources, if you read the thread), stuff from Fjordman, and a statement by the far right Danish party leader. NONE OF THESE ARE CREDIBLE.
Celtlund supplied the Weekly Standard source and Nuovo Tenochtitlan supplied information linking immigrants to higher unemployment rates.

Maybe you should stop "finding shit" about Malmö and Sweden and start finding facts instead.

First of all, I'm not a paranoid nazophobe like you. Therefore, whereas I recognize the possibility that political extremists sometimes lie, I don't automatically assume that. A foolish mistake.
Also, I don't assume that all things that nazis like are always evil, or that the things nazis oppose are by definition good. If you do, you have no business talking about politics.Most of them, though. Since you can't really tell, it's best to leave them outside of the political discussion entirely and ignore any points they make.

You haven't actually read all that many stories about Malmö, now have you?



Hahaha! (<- I actually did laugh there, honest to Darwin, I did.) Oh, dear... you actually think this Nazi hogwash they printed in their own mouth piece is true?

If they actually did Nazi propaganda, they'd be jailed. So I'm sure there is much subjectivity on your description.

And why doesnt Sweden publish any statistics about crime commited by people of immigrant background? They are too afraid of the truth like these:

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece


Finally, I do not understand why, as a jew, he shouldnt be concerned about growing immigrants (read: mostly muslims) in Europe:


To be a Jew in Denmark
EFRAIM ZUROFF , THE JERUSALEM POST Nov. 6, 2006

It was Marcellus who asserted in the play Hamlet that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark," but one does not need the acumen of Shakespeare to discern that things have changed for the worse in the country that was once a symbol of European philo-Semitism.

As a result, the local Jewish community, which for decades could boast of the highest comfort level in Europe in terms of its acceptance, integration and absence of any deep-seated anti-Jewish hostility, now faces important battles on several fronts, not to mention a few extremely serious internal problems.

Upon arriving in the center of Copenhagen after an absence of a few years, one can immediately sense the palpable changes in the makeup of the population. Lily-white, blond Denmark has absorbed almost 200,000 Muslim immigrants from south Asia and north Africa over the past two decades and their physical presence is fairly pronounced in the streets of the capital; whether it is women and teenagers with various head-coverings, individuals whose skin color stands out in comparison to the rest of the local population, or the numerous fast-food stands selling shishlik and/or shishkebab.

Their arrival and the growing Islamic militancy of segments of this population have led to a worrying increase in anti-Semitic incidents in a country in which such incidents were practically unthinkable a few years ago. Jewish children are often the object of taunting and harassment by Muslim neighbors and there has been increasingly strident anti-Zionist rhetoric by local Muslim leaders in response to events in the Middle East.

Med Ryggen Mod Murren - With our Backs to the Wall - was the name of a day-long conference on anti-Semitism which I was invited to address. It reflects the deep angst among local Jews and supporters of Israel. Held in a hall in Christianborg, the Danish parliament, the program featured presentations on a wide range of topics related to contemporary anti-Semitism worldwide, Israel-bashing and Holocaust denial; but the dominant undercurrent was one of deep concern regarding the local situation.

TWO FORMER Israelis living in Denmark openly expressed their fears.

Tziyona, who works as a teacher in Copenhagen, and Elisheva, who lives in Jutland, spoke about their palpable concerns for their safety. The latter, for example, refuses to allow her teenage daughter to wear a Magen David necklace, although she herself does. When I humbly suggested that perhaps the time had come to return "home," she pointed to her Danish husband as if to say it wouldn't work.
A visit to the local Jewish school (Carolineskolen) only reinforced the sense of a community under pressure. The obvious security measures are a given, like practically everywhere else in Europe, but here in exchanges with the children, one felt their anxiety about prosaic matters. After a lecture on the life of Simon Wiesenthal (not a single student knew who he was!) and contemporary efforts to catch Nazi war criminals, my audience of eighth- and ninth-graders (there is no high school) were particularly interested in my views on anti-Semitism.

For them, as their teacher explained to me, this is no longer an abstract issue, but rather an omnipresent nuisance, if not an actual physical threat. Just recently some of the children were accosted by Muslim youths who knew they were Jewish since they had competed for a Jewish soccer team.

So the threats by Iranian President Ahmadinejad may sound scary, but the neighborhood Muslim bullies pose much more of an immediate problem.
On a visit to a friend who lives in the relatively tranquil suburb of Albertslund, my host, by no means a coward, warned me not to make eye-contact with a group of Muslim youths hanging out on a street corner on our way to his home. He also insisted on accompanying me back to my hotel since "People wearing a kippa are not necessarily safe these days in the city center."

Although the Jewish community is well-organized and relatively financially secure, its small numbers make local Jewish life less than appealing for many of its younger members. Add an extremely high intermarriage rate on the one hand and the aliya of many of the more committed Jewish youth raised in Denmark on the other, and the future of Danish Jewry does not appear very promising.

Or, as Hamlet himself asked in that same country: "To be or not to be, that is the question."

The writer is Israel director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Source (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378339740&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter)

So...since when does something right wing automatically make it wrong?

Also, you just rejected a source I used because Ny Nordland used it? So what?

And another thing. If there is a nazi site, does that mean that everything on it is 100% taboo? Nazis also drink water and breathe air. Does that mean we are not allowed to drink water and breathe air? Dont you guys understand that nazi parties get fueled because they talk about things that mainstream soceity wants to "push under the carpet". Its people like Fass who wont even debate immigration or ethnic minorities/crime rates that make nazi parties grow.

I am sitting here trying to have a debate about immigration and ethnic/crime rates, and people like you and Fass are saying, "this is right-wing, unreliable. This has been used by Ny Nordland, unreliable." Ofcourse its gonna be right wing, if the left wing wont even write articles on it because it is too taboo. How do you guys not understand that? Then, to debate (if thats what you want to call it) Fass shows us a bunch of garbage in Swedish, then links us to a website that doesnt even dicuss immigration or ethnic/crime rates because it is too taboo in Sweden.

PUSHING SOMETHING AWAY DOES NOT MAKE THE SITUATION GO AWAY. It only fuels neo-nazis by saying, "Look! We are the only ones willing to discuss these type of problems. Mainstream soceity doesnt care!"....blah blah blah. Neo-Nazism is on the rise BECAUSE normal people are too scared to deal with immigration/ethnic issues. THAT is a problem.

If they actually did Nazi propaganda, they'd be jailed.

Depends on the contents of the propaganda. If they urged the killing of people, yes, they would be jailed. Lying like the Nazis they are? No, unless of course they threaten or slander.

And why doesnt Sweden publish any statistics about crime commited by people of immigrant background?

Because it is irrelevant to sane people.

If they actually did Nazi propaganda, they'd be jailed. So I'm sure there is much subjectivity on your description.

And why doesnt Sweden publish any statistics about crime commited by people of immigrant background? They are too afraid of the truth like these:

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece


Finally, I do not understand why, as a jew, he shouldnt be concerned about growing immigrants (read: mostly muslims) in Europe:


Source (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378339740&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter)

Good post. I posted that Danish article a few weeks ago. Most people didnt care though, as usual.:rolleyes:

Because it is irrelevant to sane people.
So basically, every country except Sweden is insane? Grow up. That is the most irrational arguement I've ever heard.:rolleyes:

So basically, every country except Sweden is insane? Grow up.

They are if they think ethnicity has anything to do with crime.

That is the most irrational arguement I've ever heard.:rolleyes:

I bet you don't read your own posts, then...

Depends on the contents of the propaganda. If they urged the killing of people, yes, they would be jailed. Lying like the Nazis they are? No, unless of course they threaten or slander.


" Lying like the Nazis they are?"...LOL, great argument...



Because it is irrelevant to sane people.

I do not think sane is interchangeable with censorist. Check a dictionary.

They are if they think ethnicity has anything to do with crime.



Oh another Nazi magazine, TIME...


Sexual assault is rampant in France's crumbling housing projects. Now a gang-rape victim has broken the silence. Will society confront the crisis?

Samira Bellil would have much preferred to live a quiet life that didn't become the basis for a best-selling book. But after years of psychological torment caused by repeated gang rapes in one of the banlieues — the destitute public housing projects that ring most French cities — she penned Dans l'enfer des tournantes ("In the hell of the tournantes"; the last word is a slang term for gang rape). Published last month, the book has shocked France with its graphic accounts of the attacks and Bellil's impassioned denunciation of the increasing violence and sexual abuse committed against young women in the banlieues. Since 1999, rapes within the banlieue have increased by 15% to 20% every year. Dedicated to the countless "sisters in this hell, so they'll know there's a way out," Bellil shows precisely how and why sex crimes are surging in the projects. "As children of immigrants, we receive a strict upbringing and are judged very harshly if we stray from it," says the Algerian-born Bellil, 29, who was raised in a non-practicing Muslim household. "From the moment a girl steps outside, guys think they have the right to pass judgment and treat us differently. In extreme cases, this leads to violence or aggression."

..............

Reports of sexual assaults against women have risen across France, with court convictions for rape having soared by 61% between 1995 to 2000. But specialists and victims' groups say violence against women is especially acute in the banlieues because of cultural attitudes toward women. Banlieue males may adopt the lifestyles of other French youths — pop music, fast cars and pornography — but they also frequently embrace the traditional prejudices of their immigrant parents when it comes to women: any neighborhood girl who smokes, uses makeup or wears attractive clothes is a whore. Bellil's attackers targeted her because she dressed as she pleased, mixed with males and liked to dance — and had begun a romance with another teen. Owing to the fact that most rapes involve individuals known to victims, intimidation often suffices to ensure that charges are never lodged. "Victims know that they won't be protected by the police," says Bellil, "and that both they and their families will be threatened if they speak up."

.......


http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/1202/crime/bellil.htm

Right, in the interest of debate, here's a list of sources used so far:

<snip>



Ok, here's another source:

Ungdomar som rånar ungdomar - i Malmö och Stockholm, BRÅ-rapport 2000:6. ISBN 913831609-9


This areas with their (relatively) socioeconomic low standard and high unemployment led to segregation, and at the same time the rate of foreigner related crimes were reported as being at a significant for Swedish standards but nothing in comparison with the rest of the world. The truth of this were much disputed in Swedish media. Opponents maintain this to be a result of xenophobia, hostility and misunderstanding. Yet results continuously show the undisputed facts of foreigners from the low-standard socioeconomical neighbourhoods as much more likely crime suspects. In Malmö, the person injured was a native Swede in 71% of cases; the suspect mugger was however foreign-born in 61% of cases.

Poland?

With 5 million unemployed?, wrong gues Hans

Ok, here's another source:

Ungdomar som rånar ungdomar - i Malmö och Stockholm, BRÅ-rapport 2000:6. ISBN 913831609-9

And here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden

And here's something that you forgot to point out:

In the late 1990s a new kind of crime drew the attention of media: muggings among youths. This phenomenon bears a strong relationship to the waves of immigrants that arrived in Sweden the 1990s. 50 percent of all crimes are committed by non-Swedes are done by people from other Nordic countries. Some examples that (sometimes unfairly) came to define the situation in respective city were Bergsjön in Göteborg; Rinkeby in Stockholm; and Rosengård in Malmö.

This areas with their (relatively) socioeconomic low standard and high unemployment led to segregation, and at the same time the rate of foreigner related crimes were reported as being at a significant for Swedish standards but nothing in comparison with the rest of the world.

Again, I feel this is more of an economic clash than a cultural one.

I did not reply to the other links, as they do not discuss Malmo.

EDIT: Actually, you may have found it here:
http://www.bra.se/extra/pod/?action=pod_show&id=1&module_instance=11

Malmo has a lot of crime.
Malmo has a lot of immigrants.
Immigrants must be the source of crime in Malmo.

Or there might be some slightly more complex reasons behind it. Oh, and considering they were interviewed by a Nazi "newspaper" I wouldn't put a whole lot of trust in the objectivity of those cops.

Oh, I see that one person teeling You that the newspaper is "Nazi", without any proof whatsoever, is enough to make it true?

Looks like You shouldn´t put a whole lot of trust in that either!

So...since when does something right wing automatically make it wrong? No, but it makes it suspicious. Something far right, on the other hand, is completely worthless.

Also, you just rejected a source I used because Ny Nordland used it? So what?No, I labeled it unreliable because I've read the articles and they're all mainly right-wing scare tactics. Then I rejected it when I found out whom they have contributing to it.

And another thing. If there is a nazi site, does that mean that everything on it is 100% taboo? Nazis also drink water and breathe air. Does that mean we are not allowed to drink water and breathe air?If Nazis really breathe air and drink water, I'm sure there will be non-Nazi sources to corroborate that, effectively making the contribution of the Nazis irrelevant.

Basically: We all know that Nazis usually lie or totally exaggerate about things they care about: Jewish global hegemony, homosexuality, and heritage. Say Nazi source A states argument B. If argument B is true, there will be enough evidence to prove it without having to resort to Nazi propaganda. In which case the Nazi source A is completely unneccessary in the first place. On the other hand, it could be false, in which case it is completely unneccessary in the first place.
Dont you guys understand that nazi parties get fueled because they talk about things that mainstream soceity wants to "push under the carpet". Its people like Fass who wont even debate immigration or ethnic minorities/crime rates that make nazi parties grow.They also get fueled by people giving their arguments credibility.

I am sitting here trying to have a debate about immigration and ethnic/crime rates, and people like you and Fass are saying, "this is right-wing, unreliable. This has been used by Ny Nordland, unreliable." Bullshit. You were whining about how we weren't willing to debate you on your sources claiming that you had plenty of unskewed support and now that I compiled a list of the sources and why they aren't acceptable you're whining how all the crap sources you supplied (yeah, none of them hold water; the Weekly Standard was posted by Celtlund; all you had was a Nazi paper, Fjordman, and a far-right party leader's statement) were labeled as crap sources.
Ofcourse its gonna be right wing, if the left wing wont even write articles on it because it is too taboo. That's coo'. Now if you were able to supply neutral stuff it wouldn't be a problem.
How do you guys not understand that? Then, to debate (if thats what you want to call it) Fass shows us a bunch of garbage in Swedish, then links us to a website that doesnt even dicuss immigration or ethnic/crime rates because it is too taboo in Sweden.You started the thread but failed completely to supply anything worth debating on, aside from the reliability of your sources.

PUSHING SOMETHING AWAY DOES NOT MAKE THE SITUATION GO AWAY. It only fuels neo-nazis by saying, "Look! We are the only ones willing to discuss these type of problems. Mainstream soceity doesnt care!"....blah blah blah. Neo-Nazism is on the rise BECAUSE normal people are too scared to deal with immigration/ethnic issues. THAT is a problem.:rolleyes:

Oh, I see that one person teeling You that the newspaper is "Nazi", without any proof whatsoever, is enough to make it true?

Looks like You shouldn´t put a whole lot of trust in that either!Why? With a name like Folks Nyheter, it's not that unlikely. Plus, Fass usually doesn't lie about stuff like that.

Actually, I did win the argument, as the source was not credible and uncorroborated.

http://texasholdemblogger.wordpress.com/files/2006/08/bullshit-o-meter.gif
You also ignored the sources posted by others that supported the OP.

Well, the editor is a white supremacist, as I showed in a previous post. And I have looked at all the other sources and very few of them corroborate the OP, and those that do are not themselves corroborated and are blogs.

Perhaps if you would decide on a specific issue concerning Malmo and immigration, we could discuss it.

Not a Nazi publication, not a blog, so discuss.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/271dgkju.asp

On my. Multiculturalism is counterproductive? Extra-European Immigrants are irreconcilable to contemporary Europe? What shocking news this is....

Not a Nazi publication, not a blog, so discuss.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/271dgkju.asp

I think I did. If this is the article you posted earlier in the thread.
Here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991300&postcount=137

I think I did. If this is the article you posted earlier in the thread.
Here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991300&postcount=137

You did. My bad.:(

You also ignored the sources posted by others that supported the OP.No, as you may have noticed, they were weighed and found wanting. This isn't ignoring them. I devoted an entire post to scouring all sources listed in this thread, and it turned out, you were the only one to submit one half-way decent source by the time I got done.

Why? With a name like Folks Nyheter, it's not that unlikely. Plus, Fass usually doesn't lie about stuff like that.

I see, its the name that does the crime! Do you even know what Folks Nyheter meens?


Plus, Fass sayes so, and he usually doesn´t lie - best argument ever - period!!!!



Let me refrase it:

Why? With a name like Fass, it´s not that unlikely. Plus, Folks Nyheter usually doesn´t lie about stuff like that.


Now, how´s that for an argument?

And I thought the Swedes were neutral in all matters, silly me.

If there is a nazi site, does that mean that everything on it is 100% taboo? Nazis also drink water and breathe air. Does that mean we are not allowed to drink water and breathe air?

No, this is a fallacious comparison. Drinking water and breathing air is not a key policy of the nazi parties, whereas hostility towards immigrants is. It also means the information is unreliable, as has been pointed out.

Dont you guys understand that nazi parties get fueled because they talk about things that mainstream soceity wants to "push under the carpet". Its people like Fass who wont even debate immigration or ethnic minorities/crime rates that make nazi parties grow.

Oh please. They get fueled by xenophobia and bigotry, something that Fass is only trying to combat, and something that you, intentionally or not, are helping to spread.

I am sitting here trying to have a debate about immigration and ethnic/crime rates, and people like you and Fass are saying, "this is right-wing, unreliable.

Your original post seems to be primarily concerned with the outrage you feel at supposed events outlined in that nazi article.

As such, this doesn't seem to be a thread about general immigration debate, but about that specific article.


PUSHING SOMETHING AWAY DOES NOT MAKE THE SITUATION GO AWAY.

NOR DOES SCAREMONGERING.

It only fuels neo-nazis by saying, "Look! We are the only ones willing to discuss these type of problems. Mainstream soceity doesnt care!"....blah blah blah. Neo-Nazism is on the rise BECAUSE normal people are too scared to deal with immigration/ethnic issues. THAT is a problem.

It's on the rise because people are "dealing with" "immigration/ethnic issues" in a hostile, xenophobic, blame-seeking and bigoted manner.

It's like when people try to claim that Detroit has so much crime because people there are black, not because they're poor.
That should have ended the thread right there. Wisest words spoken so far.

That should have ended the thread right there. Wisest words spoken so far.

Should, but don't. The anti-immigrant crowd genuinely believes that immigrants, especially Muslims, are inherently evil or "incompatible" and a "drain on the economy" and "don't assimilate."

Really, it sickens me because not only is the OP quoting a bunch of nazis, but the sentiment seems to echo the persecution of Jews. They were held to be a "drain on the economy," leeches, who kept to themselves and thus did not "Assimilate" and were not "True Germans." Nowadays it's Muslims who are not "True Europeans" or "true Swedes" or "true Norwegians."

Sounds like Sweden is doing a poor job of assimilating its new population. I have no problems with Arabs, Persians and what not, and I have no problem with Islam. However, I do have a problem with the cultural attitudes of the areas that the majority come from. If you are going to live in a civilized society, you should learn how to be civilized.

Now, I have no doubt that these Swedish police are probably blowing the problem a bit out of proportion, but to deny the existence of these immigration issues just strikes me as dishonest. I mean, if a European moved to Saudi Arabia, would he immediately start beating his wife? Probably not.

Having said all this, I favor complete and free immigration of anyone willing to follow the laws of the country they immigrate to, those laws being reasonable, of course. I mean its Sweden. How big of a prick would you have to be to be on the wrong side of the law there?

Should, but don't. The anti-immigrant crowd genuinely believes that immigrants, especially Muslims, are inherently evil or "incompatible" and a "drain on the economy" and "don't assimilate."

Really, it sickens me because not only is the OP quoting a bunch of nazis, but the sentiment seems to echo the persecution of Jews. They were held to be a "drain on the economy," leeches, who kept to themselves and thus did not "Assimilate" and were not "True Germans." Nowadays it's Muslims who are not "True Europeans" or "true Swedes" or "true Norwegians."

...Which is all the more sickening, since TAI is Jewish himself.

Of course, so was Hitler. And we all know how that turned out.

Having said all this, I favor complete and free immigration of anyone willing to follow the laws of the country they immigrate to, those laws being reasonable, of course. I mean its Sweden. How big of a prick would you have to be to be on the wrong side of the law there?


A little wiener, as they, for example, have laws that forbid journalists to write if a criminal is non swedish ( isn´t that right Fass? ). That´s not cencorship, just common Swedish sense! If you don´t talk about it, it´s not there!!

Just teasing, I actually like Sweden! I was in Malmø last weekend and it´s a nice town ( We wasn´t mugged, stapped nor making funny gestures at ).

...Which is all the more sickening, since TAI is Jewish himself.This is about multiculturalism, Malmoe, and immigration. My religion should not come into play.

Of course, so was Hitler.
Hitler was not Jewish.:rolleyes:

This is about multiculturalism, Malmoe, and immigration. My religion should not come into play.


Hitler was not Jewish.:rolleyes:

True that, and neither should the "information" in these Nazi newsletters... I just find it odd that you're still standing by them.

And why don't you read up on Hitler a wee bit more? You'd be surprised.

True that, and neither should the "information" in these Nazi newsletters... I just find it odd that you're still standing by them.


Still hanging on to the Nazi newsletter theory?


BTW let us see what you have on Hitler. please linky

True that, and neither should the "information" in these Nazi newsletters... I just find it odd that you're still standing by them.
I am only standing by what it says in there because I have found more on these issues at other cites and articles. Like I said, even the head of a major Danish political party has talked about this. Hardly nazi gossip on the internet.
And why don't you read up on Hitler a wee bit more? You'd be surprised.
Oh yes, why dont you just show us where it says Hitler was Jewish....:rolleyes:

I am only standing by what it says in there because I have found more on these issues at other cites and articles. Like I said, even the head of a major Danish political party has talked about this. Hardly nazi gossip on the internet.

Oh yes, why dont you just show us where it says Hitler was Jewish....:rolleyes:


Which head of which party?

Oh yes, why dont you just show us where it says Hitler was Jewish....:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_hitler
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325b.html

Well, he may or may not have been Jewish. But, when I last read about this (three and a half years ago in my correspondence school Social Studies books), the information pointed out that he was Jewish.

I'm glad that Wikipedia's around to correct things.

If and when you get over that "brown people are fucking Malmö over" -thing... you might want to talk about why IT BLOWS (if it indeed does). Because Malmö apparantly does suck. My sister left it after 3 years, and thinks Göteborg (Gothenburg) is somewhat better in every aspect... apparently it is 100% gene winner city. I think I won't visit.

Still hanging on to the Nazi newsletter theory?


BTW let us see what you have on Hitler. please linky

"Still hanging on"? I don't have to "hang on" to anything, because that is a Nazi propaganda newsletter. The information is falsified, and their talking points are almost completely racist bigotry.

And I did. My previous post has the links, though it seems my previous information was a little scattershot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_hitler
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325b.html

Well, he may or may not have been Jewish. But, when I last read about this (three and a half years ago in my correspondence school Social Studies books), the information pointed out that he was Jewish.

I'm glad that Wikipedia's around to correct things.
Hitler was not Jewish. That one article trys to bend it sooooooooo much to find out if like one grandparents or something might have been Jewish. They cant even prove that, but even if they did, it still wouldnt make Hitler Jewish.

Hitler was not Jewish. That one article trys to bend it sooooooooo much to find out if like one grandparents or something might have been Jewish. They cant even prove that, but even if they did, it still wouldnt make Hitler Jewish.

Yeah, which is why I said that my previous source information wasn't exactly good. :p

Which head of which party?
Pia Kjærsgaard, of Danks Folkeparti

Yeah, which is why I said that my previous source information wasn't exactly good. :p
Fine.:p Anyway, back to what we were talking about.

A little wiener, as they, for example, have laws that forbid journalists to write if a criminal is non swedish ( isn´t that right Fass? ).

This is the Swedish penal code. (http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/19620700.HTM) Find me that law, please. I shall expect you to be looking for a very long time.

I see, its the name that does the crime! Do you even know what Folks Nyheter meens?

Fine, if you want yet another source that proves the "paper" to be Nazi, then sure. This is what the paper "Analyskritik" ("Analytical criticism") has to say about "Folkets Nyheter" (which by the by means "The People's News"): (http://www.analyskritik.press.se/media/Folketsnyheter.htm)

Folkets Nyheter - en nynazistisk tidning har startats

(2003-07-12) Nyligen utkom det första numret av veckotidningen "Folkets Nyheter" (F-N). Den kommande veckotidningen, det första numret omfattar nämligen sommaren 2003, ges ut av "Svenska Media". Ansvarig utgivare och chefsredaktör för F-N är Lennart Berg. Berg var tidigare politiskt aktiv i den uttalade nazistiska organisationen "Svenska Motståndsrörelsen" med tidningen "Folktribunen"; en tidning som hyllar den amerikanske terroristfilosofen William Pierce, författaren till "Turner Diaries" och "Hunter". Idag är Berg aktiv i Nationaldemokraterna, en organisation som är än mer extrem än Sverigedemokraterna. På sid. 9 rapporteras följaktligen om ND:s demonstration den 6 juni under slagorden: "socialdemokrati - landsförräderi" och "nej till emu". Bergs ledarartikel "Rösta nej" handlar om besvikelsen att EU inte kommer att bli en "fästning Europa" och bli en motvikt mot USA, den "dekadenta kapitalismens högborg".

Vid sidan av Berg är Anders Niklasson ledarskribent. En av hans ledare "Avsky USA på rätt sätt" uttrycker den klassiska nationalsocialismens antiamerikanism. Ett hat som riktar sig emot "materialismen", den kulturella och moraliska dekadensen - jämfört med ariernas övermänniskomoral i F-N... etc

For those of you who are limited in your language capacity, this is a direct translation to English: "The People's News" - the start of a neo-Nazi publication. Recently the first issue of the periodical "Folkets Nyheter" was released. The first issue encompasses the summer of 2003 and is published by "Svenska Media" (my comment: "Swedish Media" - they publish anti-semitic and Nazi and that type of books). The responsible issuer and editor in chief is Lennart Berg. Berg was previously active in the avowedly Nazi organisation "Svenska Motståndsrörelsen" (my comment: "Swedish Resistance") with the paper "Folktribunen;" a paper that salutes the USAmerican terrorist philosopher William Pierce, the author to "The Turner Diaries" and "Hunter." Today, Berg is active in the National Democrats (my comment: a Nazi party), a party thus to the extreme of Sverigedemokraterna (my comment: a xenophobic, populist party). On page 9 they consequently report on Nationaldemokraterna's demonstrantion on June 6 under the banners of "Social Democracy - Treason" and "No to the EMU." Bergs leading editorial "Rösta Nej" ("Vote no") deals with the disappointment that the EU will not become a "fortress Europe" and become a counterbalance to the United States of America, the "home of decadent capitalism."

On the side of Berg, the lead author is Anders Niklasson. One of his op-eds, "Avsky USA på rätt sätt" ("Hate the USA correctly") expresses classical national socialist anti-Americanism. A hatred directed against "materialism," the cultural and moral decadence - as compared to the aryan übermensch morality of Folkets Nyheter.

The article goes on to describe other stories in Folkets Nyheter and also deals with another of the men behind it; Lars Adelskogh, a holocaust denier who has written the book "En tom säck kan inte stå" ("An empty bag cannot stand") aimed at "destroying the myth of the gas chambers in Auschwitz" and who frequently fancies himself the target of persecution by a "multicultural Jew-led elite."

The thing is, if you had been able to read Folkets Nyheter, you would have seen all this, because this is what they write themselves. But, no, you chose to disregard my earlier link that proved this, and instead went on to misspell "Malmö" in claiming to have visited it, and also went on to show your ignorance of Swedish jurisprudence and law.

Wanna talk Sweden? Wanna claim to "know" oh, so much and have done oh, so much "research?" Learn Swedish. Before then, you don't know jack, as the OP's believing a Nazi mouth piece proves.
Then how can you expect anyone here to take your source as credible if you are unwilling to translate it?

Then how can you expect anyone here to take your source as credible if you are unwilling to translate it?

Look at the post above yours. :p

Look at the post above yours. :p
I saw it. It was his initial response that I was commenting on.

I see, its the name that does the crime! Do you even know what Folks Nyheter meens?The terms "Folks" or "volks" are typically used by Nazis in germanic language speaking areas.
Plus, Fass sayes so, and he usually doesn´t lie - best argument ever - period!!!!
Of course, you leave out that Fass is Swedish and may know more on the issue than someone not Swedish, like myself or you.


Let me refrase it:

Why? With a name like Fass, it´s not that unlikely. Plus, Folks Nyheter usually doesn´t lie about stuff like that.Yeah whatever.


Now, how´s that for an argument?

And I thought the Swedes were neutral in all matters, silly me.Shitty argument. Doesn't say much good about yourself, if that's the best you can come up with.

Now please stop behaving like a Nazi tag-along or people might start thinking you're not just tagging along out of ignorance.

God, I don't think I've ever seen so much blatant use of Fjordman "articles" in one thread before. IT's quite scary.

If they actually did Nazi propaganda, they'd be jailed. So I'm sure there is much subjectivity on your description.

And why doesnt Sweden publish any statistics about crime commited by people of immigrant background? They are too afraid of the truth like these:

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece
Hey Ny Nordland :)

Still using those old articles in every debate I see?
Good post. I posted that Danish article a few weeks ago. Most people didnt care though, as usual.:rolleyes:
Probably because it didn't say what you think it says. There's been done threads on that snippet from 2001 time and time again, remember? Ny Nordland loves to pull it out as if it said anything more than the following:

In 2001, police statistics revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed that year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority. Muslim organisations express concern and wants to take action.
The article does not mention if this is convictions, suspects or something else it's talking about. In short, it is quite useless for a continued debate. So you really shouldn't be surprised...

Probably because it didn't say what you think it says. There's been done threads on that snippet from 2001 time and time again, remember?Hmmm? No, the article I was talking about, was more or less new, and talked about Jewish life, under the threat of Islam, in Denmark.

Hmmm? No, the article I was talking about, was more or less new, and talked about Jewish life, under the threat of Islam, in Denmark.

Oh, the Jerusalem Post one, not the Copenhagen Post. Sorry, my bad. :)

To make up for it, I'll note some points about the original article:

Sydsvenskan, a news paper circulated in the southern Swedish province of Skåne where Malmö is situated, claimed in an editorial earlier this year that democracy in Sweden is intact and that debate is practically unconstrained. Yet, Folkets Nyheter is forced to interview the police man anonymously, in order not to put him in jeopardy of losing his job.
Hmm... Considering the tone and content of the e-mails of the other officer, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But OK, so this article is based upon the opinions of a single (unidentified) person.
The government just recently gave the municipalities another 1,7 billion SEK (235 880 000 USD) to help them manage with the handling of all illegal immigrants. It stands to reason that we Swedes need to take care of our own first of all.
So now it's the illegal immigrants that's the problem. I would have liked to see more on this issue - what does he mean by "handling" them? And is the amount a lot when distributed to the 290 municipalities that make up Sweden? (About 5,8 million SEK (813 380 USD) per municipality on average?)

– And the number of rapes has risen dramatically as well, which has to do with the fact that over 40 percent of Malmö's inhabitants have a different ethnic background where the men's power over women is absolute.
http://www.bra.se/extra/pod/?action=pod_show&id=21&module_instance=11 - By principal offence, 1975-2005 (xls)

Numbers of rape, convictions per year
Of which
Rape,
gross
rape

1975 109 1976 102 1977 89 1978 98 1979 99 1980 118 1981 86 1982 116 1983 129 1984 122
1985 129 1986 156 1987 115 1988 159 1989 165 1990 174 1991 148 1992 163 1993 181 1994 150
1995 133 1996 101 1997 115 1998 129 1999 98 2000 121 2001 111 2002 113 2003 132 2004 153 2005 216

Firs impression is that it's rissen, but dramatically?

Not convictions... Reported offences seems to have grown moe though. What is the officer talking about?

– Unfortunately a large part of the Swedish people have a distorted view of what is happening and that is due 99 percent to the biased portrayal of reality given by the media.
Blaming the media is always a sure card :rolleyes:

– I'd like to make it clear that it is not ”Per” and ”Stina” (transl. note. common Swedish names) who are causing this hellish commotion. It's the immigrant gangs who are trying to take over control and spread fear among ordinary citizens.
So what about the swedish gangs? Are they non-existent?

– I fully understand those who organize themselves in vigilante groups and involve and engage themselves in one of the most important issues there is, the safety of the family.
...yeah, I kinda doubt he's speaking for the majority of officers when he's endorsing vigilanteism.

And finally... Well... I guess we're done with this article then?

And here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden

And here's something that you forgot to point out:



Again, I feel this is more of an economic clash than a cultural one.

I did not reply to the other links, as they do not discuss Malmo.

EDIT: Actually, you may have found it here:
http://www.bra.se/extra/pod/?action=pod_show&id=1&module_instance=11


The question is, are they "ethnic Nordics" (!)? And does "people from other Nordic countries" implies birth of origin or residence? Due to tightening of immigration laws in Denmark and Norway, many immigrants go to Sweden.

God, I don't think I've ever seen so much blatant use of Fjordman "articles" in one thread before. IT's quite scary.


Hey Ny Nordland :)

Still using those old articles in every debate I see?

Probably because it didn't say what you think it says. There's been done threads on that snippet from 2001 time and time again, remember? Ny Nordland loves to pull it out as if it said anything more than the following:

In 2001, police statistics revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed that year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority. Muslim organisations express concern and wants to take action.
The article does not mention if this is convictions, suspects or something else it's talking about. In short, it is quite useless for a continued debate. So you really shouldn't be surprised...

Hey...

These statistics made quite an uproar when they were published so I wonder why they dont publish such statistics anymore? Because it's "racist"? I'm sure throughout the history, censorship was "justified" because of reasons ranging from blasphemy to capitalist propaganda so information shouldnt be hidden, IMO.
Anyway, since we have no data about this year, our only reference can be the data we have. And...


If one leading expert is to be believed, the sharp rise in the number of rapes in this over the last 5 years is largely attributable to a group of unemployed and alienated immigrants.

'Over the last 5-10 years there has an increasing tendency to marginalise and alienate immigrants,' says Professor Flemming Balvig, a criminologist at Copenhagen University. 'As a result, many second generation immigrants have reacted against this through various types of criminal activity, including rape.'

Although the number of reported rapes reached a peak of 600 in 1986 after which it fell steadily until 1996, since then the figure has increased again from 388 to 497, equivalent to a whopping 25 per cent jump.

'Rape is often committed by young men for whom it also represents a kind of proof of manhood. And if you look at the figures, men with an immigrant background are grossly over-represented, compared to the proportion of the population they make up,' he maintains.

His theory is backed up by a 1998 Justice Ministry survey on crime, which found that immigrants were over-represented by an average of 46 per cent. In addition, the recent publication of a report from the Copenhagen police shows that 47.5 per cent of prisoners on remand for serious crimes such as murder, attempted murder and rape come from immigrant backgrounds.

'Although the percentage of foreigners committing rape is proportionally higher than it should be, on average we only get one and a half rapes per month, so we are actually talking about a very small number of cases,' says Kurt Jensen, who is in charge of of Copenhagen police's Serious Crime Squad. Flemming Balvig concludes: 'Those immigrants who do commit rape belong to a hardcore group who have been considerably marginalised and alienated and who are extremely criminally inclined already. These are people who don't care what happens to them as they feel things can't get any worse anyway. They simply use and abuse others as it suits them. But even if we compare this group with other Danish-born people in the same situation, i.e. with no job and no prospects, the immigrant group is still over-represented.'

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62173.html

But I guess this isnt reliable neither because the source is only one criminologist, eh? Or maybe the data wasnt clear? Or maybe source is Nazi?
Or maybe we can explain Malmö having higher crime than Copenhagen not on its higher immigrant population, but errr climate?
Surely, it'd be racist to link these to the cultural attitudes of immigrants towards women.

Greetings Laerod

I´m sorry for the late reply.

The terms "Folks" or "volks" are typically used by Nazis in germanic language speaking areas.
Of course, you leave out that Fass is Swedish and may know more on the issue than someone not Swedish, like myself or you.

You are off course right about the term Volks/Folks used in German speaking areas, but that doesn´t automaticly make it a fact in this case. Last I checked Swedes spoked swedish;)
No, I don´t leave out the fact that Fass is Swedish, it just doesn´t make everything he claims about Sweden and other swedish peoples opinion right! We have had the discussion before (for examble the cartoonthing debate were I, whom is from Denmark, wasn´t automaticly trusted in the things I wrote). Btw, I´ll bet you a large chocolatecookie that I live nearer Malmø than Fass:) Which again, doesn´t make my words more true than others!



Yeah whatever.

Come on, I just twisted your words a little. And besides from that it´s a bad argument/fact.



Shitty argument. Doesn't say much good about yourself, if that's the best you can come up with.

I´m glad you shared your opinion on my "argument" it just wasn´t an argument but a retorical question referring to the fact that its not a valid argument that you believe/prefer certain people from other.



Now please stop behaving like a Nazi tag-along or people might start thinking you're not just tagging along out of ignorance.

Now were really on to something, its the whole "if you don´t agree with me in the immigration/social/criminal debate, then you shurely must be a Nazi" thing I wholeheartly disagree with!!!

It really anoyes me to see a natural and needed debate about domestic politics blocked by people who believes that their opinions and wievs are better/ more rightious than others and therefore refers to their oponents as Nazis, rightwings, etc. etc. etc. Just like when you refer to me as a Nazi tag-along and tops it up with or people might start thinking you're not just tagging along out of ignorance.

PLEASE stop behaving like that, it doesn´t give you any credit whatsoever.

I read and understand Swedish, and Fass is completely right that the paper, folks nyheter, writes very far right-wing articles and most probably sympatises with the nazi ideologi ( which I dont ) but there is usually no smoke where there isn´t a fire. with that I mean that the Swedes need to have a public debate about their ways with the imigration, before they get their very own Dansk Folkeparti, which is the right-wing party in Denmark.
The DP is where it is because the established parties denied there was any problems with immigration and therefore no need to debate it ( underlined that if one mentioned the immigrationissue, one were somehow very right-wing and nazilike and not a good person. That doesn´t really develope the debate, does it? I´m not proud that DP is goverment supporting in Denmark but aprox 20% voted for them! so I guess the established parties left something out? ( And now please dont go: all Danes are Nazilike )

Best wishes

HWAF

BTW: I vote liberal and have allway done so:)

http://i.ville.gouv.fr/divbib/doc/chercherZUS.htm
ATLAS DES ZONES URBAINES SENSIBLES

^ No-go zones for French cops. From Daniel Pipes

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/709
They go by the euphemistic term Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, with the even more antiseptic acronym ZUS, and there are 751 of them as of last count. They are convienently listed on one long webpage, complete with street demarcations and map delineations.

What are they? Those places in France that the French state does not control. They range from two zones in the medieval town of Carcassone to twelve in the heavily Muslim town of Marseilles, with hardly a town in France lacking in its ZUS. The ZUS came into existence in late 1996 and according to a 2004 estimate, nearly 5 million people live in them.

Comment: A more precise name for these zones would be Dar al-Islam, the place where Muslims rule. (November 14, 2006)


This Dar al-Islam mentality amongst the radicals can be seen the way Abu Izzadeen, a radical in UK said to the Home Secretary "How dare you come to a Muslim area and talk like this (IIRC)"...

It only takes a drop of poison to spoil a tank of water. Has it already been poisoned ? What would be the remedy? Is a remedy even possible? These are certainly questions to ponder instead of pretending there is no problem whatsoever and throwing nazi labels just because some nazis happen to have spoken on the issue...

Greetings Laerod

I´m sorry for the late reply.Np
You are off course right about the term Volks/Folks used in German speaking areas, but that doesn´t automaticly make it a fact in this case. Last I checked Swedes spoked swedish;) Hence "germanic". It even gets used in English.
No, I don´t leave out the fact that Fass is Swedish, it just doesn´t make everything he claims about Sweden and other swedish peoples opinion right! We have had the discussion before (for examble the cartoonthing debate were I, whom is from Denmark, wasn´t automaticly trusted in the things I wrote). Btw, I´ll bet you a large chocolatecookie that I live nearer Malmø than Fass:) Which again, doesn´t make my words more true than others!No, but when corroborated with other circumstantial evidence may make a statement.
Come on, I just twisted your words a little. And besides from that it´s a bad argument/fact.On it's own.
However, there were three heavy indicators that it was a Nazi newspaper:
1. The Name
As I said before, the term "Folk" or "people's" is used commonly among Nazis in germanic speaking areas. This includes German and Swedish, to name two languages.
Here's a quick list of names that contain "Folk" that I came up with:
- Volkssturm
- Volkswagen
- Völkischer Beobachter
- "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer."
- Deutsche Volksunion
- Volksgenossen
- Folk the Nation
- Volkskammer
- Kasernierte Volkspolizei

Of all those, only the last two aren't in any way associated with Nazis or neo-Nazis. They are communist. Which leads one to the logical conclusion that it's mainly communists and Nazis that use that particular term.

2. The Agenda
Left with the two options that its most likely communist or neo-nazi, let's take a look at the agenda. As professed by every right-winger in this thread, no left-wing paper would ever mention the word immigrant. So it's probably not a communist paper.

3. Fass' Statement
Fass is a Swede. He claims that it's a Nazi paper, literally, because it gets run by the Nazi Party in Sweden. Considering the above two points, I have more reason to believe him than not.

I´m glad you shared your opinion on my "argument" it just wasn´t an argument but a retorical question referring to the fact that its not a valid argument that you believe/prefer certain people from other.Of course. Now you have no circumstantial evidence to back your statement up while Fass does. Your "argument" that I'm weighing unfairly in Fass' direction, even if his opinion is more preferable to me than yours, is flawed.

Now were really on to something, its the whole "if you don´t agree with me in the immigration/social/criminal debate, then you shurely must be a Nazi" thing I wholeheartly disagree with!!!Nope. I'm amazed that you keep harping on about the "Nazi paper theory" after even TAI admitted it could well be a Nazi paper. It could well be that you haven't read the entire thread. It could be that you're willing to ignore Fass' statement simply because Fass made it. And then there's the possibility that you're a Nazi.

All three explain why you're bending over backwards to defend the Folkets Nyheter's name.

It really anoyes me to see a natural and needed debate about domestic politics blocked by people who believes that their opinions and wievs are better/ more rightious than others and therefore refers to their oponents as Nazis, rightwings, etc. etc. etc. Just like when you refer to me as a and tops it up with . There's a wonderful play by Eugene Ionesco called "Les Rhionocéros" that makes my point better than I can. You don't have to be a Nazi to unwittingly help them to power. Giving them credibility by defending their words like that is one of the ways to do it.

PLEASE stop behaving like that, it doesn´t give you any credit whatsoever.

I read and understand Swedish, and Fass is completely right that the paper, folks nyheter, writes very far right-wing articles and most probably sympatises with the nazi ideologi ( which I dont ) but there is usually no smoke where there isn´t a fire. with that I mean that the Swedes need to have a public debate about their ways with the imigration, before they get their very own Dansk Folkeparti, which is the right-wing party in Denmark.
The DP is where it is because the established parties denied there was any problems with immigration and therefore no need to debate it ( underlined that if one mentioned the immigrationissue, one were somehow very right-wing and nazilike and not a good person. That doesn´t really develope the debate, does it? I´m not proud that DP is goverment supporting in Denmark but aprox 20% voted for them! so I guess the established parties left something out? ( And now please dont go: all Danes are Nazilike )

Best wishes

HWAF

BTW: I vote liberal and have allway done so:)And the point we're trying to make is that so far, almost no reliable sources that treat the problem have been submitted by its proponents. That doesn't foster debate either.

Greetings Laerod

Thanks for the reply

Hence "germanic". It even gets used in English.

My mistake, English isn´t my first language



No, but when corroborated with other circumstantial evidence may make a statement.

A statement yes, but not automaticly the thruth which this was also about ( for me )


On it's own.
However, there were three heavy indicators that it was a Nazi newspaper:
1. The Name
As I said before, the term "Folk" or "people's" is used commonly among Nazis in germanic speaking areas. This includes German and Swedish, to name two languages.
Here's a quick list of names that contain "Folk" that I came up with:
- Volkssturm
- Volkswagen
- Völkischer Beobachter
- "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer."
- Deutsche Volksunion
- Volksgenossen
- Folk the Nation
- Volkskammer
- Kasernierte Volkspolizei

Of all those, only the last two aren't in any way associated with Nazis or neo-Nazis. They are communist. Which leads one to the logical conclusion that it's mainly communists and Nazis that use that particular term.

2. The Agenda
Left with the two options that its most likely communist or neo-nazi, let's take a look at the agenda. As professed by every right-winger in this thread, no left-wing paper would ever mention the word immigrant. So it's probably not a communist paper.

3. Fass' Statement
Fass is a Swede. He claims that it's a Nazi paper, literally, because it gets run by the Nazi Party in Sweden. Considering the above two points, I have more reason to believe him than not.

Of course. Now you have no circumstantial evidence to back your statement up while Fass does. Your "argument" that I'm weighing unfairly in Fass' direction, even if his opinion is more preferable to me than yours, is flawed.



1. Heres a a bit from the list in the danish languagebook

Folke-død, subst.
Folke-dømme, subst.
folke-egen, adj.
Folke-eje, subst.
Folke-etymologi, subst.
Folke-eventyr, subst.
Folke-fader, subst.
folke-fattig, adj.
Folke-fest, subst.
Folke-fjed, subst.
Folke-fjende, subst.
Folke-forbund, subst.
Folke-forfører, subst.
Folke-forlystelse, subst.
Folke-formerelse, subst.
Folke-forsamling, subst.
Folke-forsikring, subst.
Folke-fortælling, subst.
Folke-færd, subst.
Folke-føde, subst.
Folke-fører, subst.
Folke-gang, subst.
Folke-gavn, subst.
Folke-gunst, subst.
Folke-had, subst.

The broadlighted could assimilate with nazis, the rest couldn´t.
The word Folk means people in Danish and a lot of words start with that

2.
I dont agree that left-wing papers dont mention the word immigrant, the assumption however, seems right.

3.
As you now write that Fass claim, instead of referring to it as a fact, your point is taken.



Nope. I'm amazed that you keep harping on about the "Nazi paper theory" after even TAI admitted it could well be a Nazi paper. It could well be that you haven't read the entire thread. It could be that you're willing to ignore Fass' statement simply because Fass made it. And then there's the possibility that you're a Nazi.

All three explain why you're bending over backwards to defend the Folkets Nyheter's name.

As you might have read in the end of my reply I give Fass the credit he deserves, and no, I haven´t read the entire post.


There's a wonderful play by Eugene Ionesco called "Les Rhionocéros" that makes my point better than I can. You don't have to be a Nazi to unwittingly help them to power. Giving them credibility by defending their words like that is one of the ways to do it.

I will be looking forward to see or read that play, nevertheless I dont agree that i am defending their words. If you by any chance should had that thought you´re wrong. I was, perhaps in other way than you, arguing that you make integrationproblems bigger by trying to denie them, and that again leads to bigger problems to the entire community. Openminded debate seems, to me, like a thin red line here.

I was also trying to argue that a sound debate is often killed by accusations from one side or the other! ( in this case the nazi/racist theme )

Btw. : Imho neither right-wing nor left-wing parties has got anything to blame the other part for, both sides uses hatred and violence to achieve their goals!



And the point we're trying to make is that so far, almost no reliable sources that treat the problem have been submitted by its proponents. That doesn't foster debate either.

You´re surdently right in that point, but why not try respect, assimilation and good common sense allthough that ain´t common nowadays. that usually works if it´s practiced both ways.

Strangely enough it seems that we broadly agree on the big subject here, but with different ways to aproach it.


HWAF

NB. wondering if you owe me a cookie?

NNB. I have just seen Simon Perez saying that the seasfire is an importing step and must be respected, new and positive tones from there:)

Why is it that "melting pot" has come to mean that other nationalities assimilate into the nation they immigrated to? Doesn't "melting pot" connote more of a meshing of cultures?

Doesn't "melting pot" connote more of a meshing of cultures?

Mosaic would be a better word for that. Dunno about the connotations (original and now) of melting pot though.

Ny Nordland?
No, he's an American, and Jewish strangely enough.

Mosaic would be a better word for that. Dunno about the connotations (original and now) of melting pot though.

I would much prefer a mosaic to a melting pot.

Provided that the mosaic is well-organized and its pieces held in a rigid design.

Because it's "racist"? I'm sure throughout the history, censorship was "justified" because of reasons ranging from blasphemy to capitalist propaganda so information shouldnt be hidden, IMO.
Capitalist propaganda? Seriously? :rolleyes: Anything that calls for censorship is inherently incompatible with the non-intervention axiom that governs theoretical capitalism. If you wanna call it corporate propaganda in liaison with government (to actually censor), sure, but otherwise it's a misnomer.

These are certainly questions to ponder instead of pretending there is no problem whatsoever and throwing nazi labels just because some nazis happen to have spoken on the issue...
I agree. Name-calling in the end is simply counter-productive, and detracts from the issue at hand.

I agree. Name-calling in the end is simply counter-productive, and detracts from the issue at hand.

Not to belabor the point...but when more and more people see this as a problem (rightly or wrongly - open to debate)...then preventing free and open debates by throwing names or such methods lead to right wingers going "I told you so....see they are appeasing....we are the ones who speak the truth and can save you from impending doom blah blah" and whip up mass hysteria which actually makes more fence-sitters sign up for the right wing.

I can tell that this is one reason why the BJP in India rose to power from just 2 seats (out of 543) in 1980 to ruling the country in late 90s and I suspect that this is one reason why there is rising popularity of right-wing parties in Europe (those who are more in tune with EU politics, please correct me if I am wrong).

Not to belabor the point...but when more and more people see this as a problem (rightly or wrongly - open to debate)...then preventing free and open debates by throwing names or such methods lead to right wingers going "I told you so....see they are appeasing....we are the ones who speak the truth and can save you from impending doom blah blah" and whip up mass hysteria which actually makes more fence-sitters sign up for the right wing.
The extreme right-wingers usually, yes. Or rather, anyone who promises to deal with immigration more generally.

I can tell that this is one reason why the BJP in India rose to power from just 2 seats (out of 543) in 1980 to ruling the country in late 90s and I suspect that this is one reason why there is rising popularity of right-wing parties in Europe (those who are more in tune with EU politics, please correct me if I am wrong).
There is a rising popularity of right-wing parties, but to specify it is more so of those populist parties that promise voters to tackle the chimera of excessive immigration. More conventional right-wing parties, such as Christian democrats or libertarian parties, unless they pander to the anti-immigration sentiments of the majorities, will usually not make gains in this case. For instance, in Austria recently Schuessel's party lost to the Social Democrats in Styria because his electorate believed he failed to do enough to curtail immigration, whereas the latter have promised to deal with it. In France both Le Pen and the more moderate Sarkozy have made gains in their support. So I believe at least in part you are right. Silencing debate on the matter is likely to lead to just that.

Personally nothing most parties suggest would satisfy me; I am not for completely open borders, neither am I for shutting them - I'd rather that communities decided on whom enters them or not, at least giving individuals a say in the matter on a more local level.

Ny Nordland?

Was he deleted?

The question is, are they "ethnic Nordics" (!)? And does "people from other Nordic countries" implies birth of origin or residence? Due to tightening of immigration laws in Denmark and Norway, many immigrants go to Sweden.

The truth is that the information is vague and inconclusive. It neither disproves nor corroborates the OP's article.

You could just as well use the same information to argue that the "people from other Nordic countries" must be "ethnic Nordics" because of immigration laws in Denmark and Norway.

It doesn't really matter. There has still been no corroboration of the OP.

Oh another Nazi magazine, TIME...


http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/1202/crime/bellil.htm

don't forget this bit

Quoted from link.

Another factor is the bleak prospects facing men from the banlieues. Most are first-generation French, the sons of parents who arrived in the 1950s and '60s from Tunisia, Algeria, Spain and sub-Saharan Africa. Unemployment rates among these young men range from 20% to 50%, versus 9% nationally, and the banlieusards often feel shunned by mainstream French society. The location of banlieues outside affluent cities enhances the sense of alienation, and police are loath to patrol the areas for fear of violence. The result: civility and order in many banlieues have broken down, and bands of young men feel they can attack women with impunity. "We've allowed large populations of young people caught in economic and social limbo to create a culture of violence," comments Malek Boutih, president of SOS Racisme, France's leading civil-rights association. "The women of the banlieue suffer the worst from that: daily disrespect and aggression that all too often results in sexual violence."

Capitalist propaganda? Seriously? :rolleyes: Anything that calls for censorship is inherently incompatible with the non-intervention axiom that governs theoretical capitalism. If you wanna call it corporate propaganda in liaison with government (to actually censor), sure, but otherwise it's a misnomer.


LOLz. I was reffering to commies censoring stuff because it was "capitalist propaganda"...

don't forget this bit

Quoted from link.

Another factor is the bleak prospects facing men from the banlieues. Most are first-generation French, the sons of parents who arrived in the 1950s and '60s from Tunisia, Algeria, Spain and sub-Saharan Africa. Unemployment rates among these young men range from 20% to 50%, versus 9% nationally, and the banlieusards often feel shunned by mainstream French society. The location of banlieues outside affluent cities enhances the sense of alienation, and police are loath to patrol the areas for fear of violence. The result: civility and order in many banlieues have broken down, and bands of young men feel they can attack women with impunity. "We've allowed large populations of young people caught in economic and social limbo to create a culture of violence," comments Malek Boutih, president of SOS Racisme, France's leading civil-rights association. "The women of the banlieue suffer the worst from that: daily disrespect and aggression that all too often results in sexual violence."


Young people already have higher unemployment rates. But yeah, immigrant rate is higher. But why? Is it pointless discrimination or is it justified? i.e: lack of education, cultural differences, better qualified ethnic-french candidates ,etc...

What I mean by cultural differences is that an employer might not want to hire an employee who thinks women who dont wear veils are whores and homosexuals must be executed...

http://i.ville.gouv.fr/divbib/doc/chercherZUS.htm
ATLAS DES ZONES URBAINES SENSIBLES

^ No-go zones for French cops. From Daniel Pipes

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/709



This Dar al-Islam mentality amongst the radicals can be seen the way Abu Izzadeen, a radical in UK said to the Home Secretary "How dare you come to a Muslim area and talk like this (IIRC)"...

It only takes a drop of poison to spoil a tank of water. Has it already been poisoned ? What would be the remedy? Is a remedy even possible? These are certainly questions to ponder instead of pretending there is no problem whatsoever and throwing nazi labels just because some nazis happen to have spoken on the issue...

I don't think anyone is saying that there is not a problem in certain immigrant areas of different countries. But no-one is willing to blame poor governmental policies related to education and the economy of the area. It seems easier for some to say them foreigners/religions are the problem.

Young people already have higher unemployment rates. But yeah, immigrant rate is higher. But why? Is it pointless discrimination or is it justified? i.e: lack of education, cultural differences, better qualified ethnic-french candidates ,etc...

What I mean by cultural differences is that an employer might not want to hire an employee who thinks women who dont wear veils are whores and homosexuals must be executed...

a possibility of course.
But it seems more likely that the fact that a majority of these people live on the outskirts in ghettos might play a larger role.
Poor infrastructure, means the property value is low, so people are going to have a harder time getting loans, etc... to start their own business or improve their own property.
Chances are the schools are poorly funded. So there is little chance of the following generation improving itself and 'moving up' in the world.
Forcing the immigrants into these areas, means they are going to concentrate and retain the good & bad of their 'native' culture.
Fewer to no police patrols due to the worry of violence. So crime runs rampant. Local thugs proably have cool cars, etc... thus making it more 'cool' for the young to do that as there is no alternative.

Young people already have higher unemployment rates. But yeah, immigrant rate is higher. But why? Is it pointless discrimination or is it justified? i.e: lack of education, cultural differences, better qualified ethnic-french candidates ,etc...

What I mean by cultural differences is that an employer might not want to hire an employee who thinks women who dont wear veils are whores and homosexuals must be executed...

Is this a problem in Malmo?

Is this a problem in Malmo?

Malmö is just part of the wider immigration debate in Europe. It's all connected like Straw making comments on head scarf and NL banning burkas a few weeks later. So yes, debating the situation in France has a direct relevance to this topic...

Malmö is just part of the wider immigration debate in Europe. It's all connected like Straw making comments on head scarf and NL banning burkas a few weeks later. So yes, debating the situation in France has a direct relevance to this topic...

I don't see the connection. French youth are not gang raping anyone in Malmo.

a possibility of course.
But it seems more likely that the fact that a majority of these people live on the outskirts in ghettos might play a larger role.
Poor infrastructure, means the property value is low, so people are going to have a harder time getting loans, etc... to start their own business or improve their own property.
Chances are the schools are poorly funded. So there is little chance of the following generation improving itself and 'moving up' in the world.
Forcing the immigrants into these areas, means they are going to concentrate and retain the good & bad of their 'native' culture.
Fewer to no police patrols due to the worry of violence. So crime runs rampant. Local thugs proably have cool cars, etc... thus making it more 'cool' for the young to do that as there is no alternative.

Actually noone is forcing them there. Usually those suburbs have been ok living spaces, despite far from being as rich as Paris centre districts. However, in time, immigrants move to these suburbs causing ethnic French to leave. I guess this is known as "white flight" in USA. An example from Sweden:


.............
Rojas estimates that the tipping point where white flight begins comes when immigrants reach 20 percent of the local population. The reason is that — given the tendency of immigrants to have more children — school systems then become half-immigrant. Kids come home speaking a "Rinkeby Swedish," with flat intonations and lots of slang derived from Turkish and Arabic, and the ethnic Swedes scatter. In Rinkeby and Tensta, that point was passed long ago.
....................

Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/05muslims.html?ei=5088&en=722dbb00a718b0f9&ex=1296795600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)

What I mean by cultural differences is that an employer might not want to hire an employee who thinks women who dont wear veils are whores and homosexuals must be executed...None of my employers seem to care enough to have asked me about my opinion on the issue when they hired me...

I don't see the connection. French youth are not gang raping anyone in Malmo.

Maybe because you are not European (assuming from your location)...

Maybe because you are not European (assuming from your location)...

Then explain it to me.

Actually noone is forcing them there. Usually those suburbs have been ok living spaces, despite far from being as rich as Paris centre districts. However, in time, immigrants move to these suburbs causing ethnic French to leave. I guess this is known as "white flight" in USA. An example from Sweden:


Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/05muslims.html?ei=5088&en=722dbb00a718b0f9&ex=1296795600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)

Just one little thing to clarify. The French banlieus were never, in their entire existance, ok living spaces. They are normally made up of council estate high rises, built in the 60s and 70s to make room for the growing population.
They are don't ressemble cosy little UK or US subburbs or German Vorstaedte in any way. They were ticking time bombs from the day they were built.

Maybe because you are not European (assuming from your location)...You know, it doesn't make much sense to a native European either.

Actually noone is forcing them there. Usually those suburbs have been ok living spaces, despite far from being as rich as Paris centre districts. However, in time, immigrants move to these suburbs causing ethnic French to leave. I guess this is known as "white flight" in USA. An example from Sweden:


Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/05muslims.html?ei=5088&en=722dbb00a718b0f9&ex=1296795600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)

and from the same link

But now the shipyards are gone. The Swedish industrial workers Bergsjon was planned for no longer live there. Today it is inhabited mostly by immigrants, many of them refugees, of a hundred nationalities. Seventy percent of the residents were either born abroad or have parents who were. The same goes for 93 percent of the schoolchildren. You see Somali women walking the paths in hijabs and long wraps and graffiti reading "Bosna i Hercegovina 4-Ever." A few years ago, the mayor of Gothenburg declared, "The prospects of turning Bergsjon into a normal Swedish neighborhood are almost nil."

Forty percent of the families are on outright welfare, and many of the rest are on various equivalents of welfare that bear different names. Far below half the population is employed. There are reports of a rise in recruitment to criminal gangs — and to radical Islamic groups, too, although none of the authorities can give a clear idea of how Islam is practiced and where. In October, Mirsad Bektasevic, a 19-year-old Swede from near Gothenburg, was arrested in Sarajevo in an apartment that contained suicide-bomb vests, explosives and a newly made video presumably intended for broadcast. Bektasevic, who was born to Muslim parents in prewar Yugoslavia and found refuge in Sweden as a 6-year-old, reportedly ran a Web site supporting Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. In October 2004, Osama bin Laden disparaged George Bush's claim that Al Qaeda hated freedom by saying, "Let him tell us why we did not strike Sweden, for example." Sweden may have kept its distance from the Iraq war, but it has been unable to shelter itself from world events.

There are places like Bergsjon ringing the major cities across Sweden. They are all terra incognita to the vast majority of native Swedes. It would be wrong to overdraw the picture. Svensson, who has been working in Bergsjon for 25 years, says she has never been attacked or felt insecure there. The public spaces are clean, and the apartments are large. In the wake of last fall's riots in France, journalists from France and Germany visited Sweden's public housing, and some hailed it as a model to be imitated. But clearly, various experiments close to the heart of Swedish democracy and Swedish socialism have gone wrong. Swedes pride themselves on the success of the cradle-to-grave welfare state they developed over the last 70 years. For its foreign defenders throughout the cold war, it was an ingenious way of avoiding the pitfalls of both American-style capitalism and Soviet Communism, of achieving both equality and prosperity. But neighborhoods that were built to keep citizens close to nature now keep them far from the job market. Policies meant to protect people from persecution now expose them to neglect. Swedes have begun to use a word — "segregation" — that they used to employ only when lecturing other countries. A sobering realization is beginning to spread that the Swedish system cannot be easily adapted to a society in which a seventh of the working-age population is foreign-born.

LOLz. I was reffering to commies censoring stuff because it was "capitalist propaganda"...
Ah, all is well then lad. :)

These statistics made quite an uproar when they were published so I wonder why they dont publish such statistics anymore?
Because it was inaccurate and rather pointless would be my guess.

Anyway, since we have no data about this year, our only reference can be the data we have.
Which is useless when it can't be compared to other data.

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62173.html

But I guess this isnt reliable neither because the source is only one criminologist, eh?
No, one secret unidentifiable source published in a nazi pamphlet is not reliable. An identifiable criminologist published in a (more or less) reputable newspaper is more reliable. But you know this...


Or maybe we can explain Malmö having higher crime than Copenhagen not on its higher immigrant population, but errr climate?
Does Malmö have a higher crime rate than Copenhagen? Have I missed a comparison between the two cities somewhere?

Surely, it'd be racist to link these to the cultural attitudes of immigrants towards women.
Go for it. First, start by defining "cultural attitudes" and "immigrants", then provide a credible link between the two and the rape - and be sure to exclude the other possible factors which may overshadow the "cultural attitudes".
Malmö is just part of the wider immigration debate in Europe. It's all connected like Straw making comments on head scarf and NL banning burkas a few weeks later. So yes, debating the situation in France has a direct relevance to this topic...
The Netherlands have not banned Burqas... yet.

and from the same link

But now the shipyards are gone. The Swedish industrial workers Bergsjon was planned for no longer live there. Today it is inhabited mostly by immigrants, many of them refugees, of a hundred nationalities. Seventy percent of the residents were either born abroad or have parents who were. The same goes for 93 percent of the schoolchildren. You see Somali women walking the paths in hijabs and long wraps and graffiti reading "Bosna i Hercegovina 4-Ever." A few years ago, the mayor of Gothenburg declared, "The prospects of turning Bergsjon into a normal Swedish neighborhood are almost nil."

Forty percent of the families are on outright welfare, and many of the rest are on various equivalents of welfare that bear different names. Far below half the population is employed. There are reports of a rise in recruitment to criminal gangs — and to radical Islamic groups, too, although none of the authorities can give a clear idea of how Islam is practiced and where. In October, Mirsad Bektasevic, a 19-year-old Swede from near Gothenburg, was arrested in Sarajevo in an apartment that contained suicide-bomb vests, explosives and a newly made video presumably intended for broadcast. Bektasevic, who was born to Muslim parents in prewar Yugoslavia and found refuge in Sweden as a 6-year-old, reportedly ran a Web site supporting Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. In October 2004, Osama bin Laden disparaged George Bush's claim that Al Qaeda hated freedom by saying, "Let him tell us why we did not strike Sweden, for example." Sweden may have kept its distance from the Iraq war, but it has been unable to shelter itself from world events.

There are places like Bergsjon ringing the major cities across Sweden. They are all terra incognita to the vast majority of native Swedes. It would be wrong to overdraw the picture. Svensson, who has been working in Bergsjon for 25 years, says she has never been attacked or felt insecure there. The public spaces are clean, and the apartments are large. In the wake of last fall's riots in France, journalists from France and Germany visited Sweden's public housing, and some hailed it as a model to be imitated. But clearly, various experiments close to the heart of Swedish democracy and Swedish socialism have gone wrong. Swedes pride themselves on the success of the cradle-to-grave welfare state they developed over the last 70 years. For its foreign defenders throughout the cold war, it was an ingenious way of avoiding the pitfalls of both American-style capitalism and Soviet Communism, of achieving both equality and prosperity. But neighborhoods that were built to keep citizens close to nature now keep them far from the job market. Policies meant to protect people from persecution now expose them to neglect. Swedes have begun to use a word — "segregation" — that they used to employ only when lecturing other countries. A sobering realization is beginning to spread that the Swedish system cannot be easily adapted to a society in which a seventh of the working-age population is foreign-born.


Refer to:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12002739&postcount=229

And:


Sweden had been trying to link immigrants with jobs and communities, along the lines Johansson still suggests. But such plans buckled under the size of the influx.

what that national unemployment for young people in france is 9% but in the ghettos its between 20% and 50%?

what about the points i highlighted?

Because it was inaccurate and rather pointless would be my guess.


I'm sure Vatican said the same thing about studies if Earth was flat or not...


Which is useless when it can't be compared to other data.


Then why do you think gathering such data is "inaccurate and rather pointless"? So that you can dismiss it because there is nothing to compare?


No, one secret unidentifiable source published in a nazi pamphlet is not reliable. An identifiable criminologist published in a (more or less) reputable newspaper is more reliable. But you know this...


Does Malmö have a higher crime rate than Copenhagen? Have I missed a comparison between the two cities somewhere?


Why dont you check it out? I'm feeling lazy...


Go for it. First, start by defining "cultural attitudes" and "immigrants", then provide a credible link between the two and the rape - and be sure to exclude the other possible factors which may overshadow the "cultural attitudes".

The Netherlands have not banned Burqas... yet.

Refer to the quote about why rapes are higher in French suburbs...

AND...


According to the National Council for Crime Prevention, citizens of other countries make up 26 percent of Swedish prison inmates. Among those serving sentences longer than five years — which in Sweden are given out for only serious crimes like major drug dealing, murder and rape — about half are foreign citizens, and these figures exclude the foreign-born who have become Swedes. Again, to a non-Swede, the scale of this problem is small. In 2004, there were only 329 people serving sentences of more than five years in all of Sweden. Still, the association of crime and immigration is not a figment of the Swedish imagination. Last summer, the left-leaning tabloid Aftonbladet revealed that a number of Muslim extremist groups were recruiting in prisons. The largest is a group called Asir, perhaps named for the Saudi province from which four of the Sept. 11 hijackers came.

Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/05muslims.html?ei=5088&en=722dbb00a718b0f9&ex=1296795600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)

Why dont you check it out? I'm feeling lazy...


Since you are the one bringing in unrelated articles and attempting to use them to corroborate the OP, the onus is on you to show how they are related.
AND...
Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/05muslims.html?ei=5088&en=722dbb00a718b0f9&ex=1296795600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)

That article, which I quite liked, also does not corroborate the OP. There is only one mention of Malmo in the whole article.

By reading the article you posted, I would say that Sweden's immigration problem is not that big a deal, and rises from several factors including, but not limited to: a welfare state planned with an outdated concensus, unwitting segregation through subsidised housing, xenophobia, odd labour laws, and simple unemployment.

And the OP is still an uncorroborated Nazi rag.

I'm sure Vatican said the same thing about studies if Earth was flat or not...
Irrelevant.

The gathering of data on the heterogeneous group "ethnic minorities" or "immigrants with non-western background" does not show or prove anything, as it is too inaccurate. Were they from the Philipines? Pakistan? Sudan? It says nothing about the culture or even geographical area or... well, does it say anything at all? Not even if they're citizens or foreigners, so what would the point be?

The data on who "comitted" the rapes is likewise too inaccurate - are we talking suspected, charged or convicted? Since the police were gathering the data, it's not easy to tell.


Then why do you think gathering such data is "inaccurate and rather pointless"? So that you can dismiss it because there is nothing to compare?
Well, it's pointless to gather it (as I say above), but even if there were a point to it, the current data would be useless as it is now.


Why dont you check it out? I'm feeling lazy...
No.

Your statement. You failed to back it up. I see no indication that Malmö has a higher crime rate than Copenhagen. Guess we're done with that then.


Refer to the quote about why rapes are higher in French suburbs...
So you can't link rape to the cultural attitudes of immigrants towards women....

'Over the last 5-10 years there has an increasing tendency to marginalise and alienate immigrants,' says Professor Flemming Balvig, a criminologist at Copenhagen University.
...and you agree that it's not the culture of the immigrants then?

AND...

Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/05muslims.html?ei=5088&en=722dbb00a718b0f9&ex=1296795600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)
Closer, but it still doesn't link the cultural attitudes of immigrants towards women and rape. And it speaks of "foreign citizens", of which I doubt all are immigrants.

Since you are the one bringing in unrelated articles and attempting to use them to corroborate the OP, the onus is on you to show how they are related.
Indeed it is.


That article, which I quite liked, also does not corroborate the OP. There is only one mention of Malmo in the whole article.

By reading the article you posted, I would say that Sweden's immigration problem is not that big a deal, and rises from several factors including, but not limited to: a welfare state planned with an outdated concensus, unwitting segregation through subsidised housing, xenophobia, odd labour laws, and simple unemployment.

And the OP is still an uncorroborated Nazi rag.
That sounds about right too :)

By reading the article you posted, I would say that Sweden's immigration problem is not that big a deal, and rises from several factors including, but not limited to: a welfare state planned with an outdated concensus, unwitting segregation through subsidised housing, xenophobia, odd labour laws, and simple unemployment.
Somehow though I doubt Sweden will deal with any of the above, least of all its cherished welfare-state.

Somehow though I doubt Sweden will deal with any of the above, least of all its cherished welfare-state.

Greetings

That wouldn´t happen in a million years, even though it´s needed both in Sweden and Denmark.

Btw. congrats with excessing post number 10.000 :)