NationStates Jolt Archive

Not any more. Heeerree's.. daddy! D'oh! Heeerrre's David Letterman! Hi David, I'm grandpa...

;)

Sorry, I needed to go to sleep, but, I'm here to help resume with the hijacking, as a original member of the crew who led the endeavour.
so, how is your attempt to find the hidden sith base going?

whatev. we want this thread knocked off the main topic, not killed.

I'd like to help, but I need to sleep, and won't be back around for about a week or so. sorry.

so, how is your attempt to find the hidden sith base going?
Quite good. I have left a path of chaos in my wake. BWahahaha!

Quite good. I have left a path of chaos in my wake. BWahahaha!

then why am I still posting?

then why am I still posting?

Because you're a postwhore and want to up your count?

+1

Because you're a postwhore and want to up your count?

+1

but if you had infiltrated the base, you would have prolly killed me.

yet i am still alive.

then why am I still posting?

you must have gotten out in time, damn you!

you must have gotten out in time, damn you!

indeed. i am now on the train to berlin.

but if you had infiltrated the base, you would have prolly killed me.

yet i am still alive.
Maybe I am at the base and hovering over, letting you think I'll kill you. You just think you're going to die; ah, the beauty of paranoia...

Maybe I am at the base and hovering over, letting you think I'll kill you. You just think you're going to die; ah, the beauty of paranoia...

no. read my last post.

no. read my last post.

I posted THEN realised that, but since I'm lazy, just assume I'm somewhere nearby... just because... err... I SAY SO! Bwahahahaha!

I posted THEN realised that, but since I'm lazy, just assume I'm somewhere nearby... just because... err... I SAY SO! Bwahahahaha!

you jedi say the most confusing things.

Dont you just hate them...I mean really they get on my last nerve!!! Ok how can you not belive in an higher power? Who made the universe? Gas you say....well who made that. It all boils down that their is a god out their. Just because you dont see something doesnt make it right to say it isnt their.

Their is this one Atheist at my school right..Well she is kinda cool...sleezy really but back to the point she HATES god and say's she will take over heaven and kill all the angels....CRAZY.......People who think that are goin to hell faster then the press found out about Madonna's new haircut and that was fast!!!!

And In my country the GRAND USA...*Plays Anthem*.....sorry world people have fought and one to ban the 10 rule that god laid down...You cant even say the "under god" thing in schools anymore its flippin crazy. Religion is the heart of america and without god their is no country. AMEN!!!!! Anyway for all you atheist out their why must you taunt everyone else and why dont you belive in anything...When you die you better belive or your goin to hell with Osama!:sniper:

*gets sheild out for backlash!!*

Forgive spelling!
Hi, I am a Christian living in Europe.

1. You can't prove or disprove God, so it's not surprising that some people won't believe the truth.

2. If she believes that God exists the she isn't an atheist.

3. It's not your place to say who will go to hell.

4. Your religion doesn't justify your nationalism. In a conflict of interests, which loyalty will you choose?

5. I have studied history. It's quite clear that capitalism is the heart of America. Religion is often mentioned but actually quite tangiental to American culture.

6. I agree, it's not right to taunt people. Challenging their beliefs in an intelligent and reasonable way is good.

7. How young are you?

how dare you try to take this thread back to the main topic.

<OP>

Can your god help you to learn the difference between their, there and they're? If so, perhaps he isn't all bad.

Overall, I recommend less vitriol and more using the tools that have been made available to you to better the quality of your life.

you jedi say the most confusing things.

That is because I am not a jedi, I AM A WEASEL!

please, people. we are trying to hijack this thread. ignore that forst post.

That is because I am not a jedi, I AM A WEASEL!

then why are you trying to kill me.

then why are you trying to kill me.

Uh... you said I was, and because I'm usually high, I can't remember what I said, I just naturally assumed it was true.

Uh... you said I was, and because I'm usually high, I can't remember what I said, I just naturally assumed it was true.

whatev. the base still stands.

how dare you try to take this thread back to the main topic.please, people. we are trying to hijack this thread. ignore that forst post.
Knock it off, Swilatia and Kryozerkia. Go start your own thread in Spam.

Knock it off, Swilatia and Kryozerkia. Go start your own thread in Spam.
It was either hijack a thread or flame. Plus, I HAVE posted some stuff on topic... It hasn't been all spam.

It was either hijack a thread or flame.
Choice 3 is "walk away". If you can't do that on your own, we'll be glad to help you.

Fine, I'll no longer hijack it.

I am an atheist and I feel that the original poster has been deliberately hostile towards all my brethren. Markiria ought to apologise for his/her remarks as they were hurtful and unfounded.

Most atheists will just ignore religion. Those who attack it are the insecure ones. This is true of followers of any religious sect.

If you assume that all atheists are one way because of one person, you're sadly very sheltered in life.

Why is it, if I say God talks to me, that I get a full medical and psychological workup and get put on meds, but some sheep herder 2000 years ago can write this stuff down and be believed without question?

Not to pick nits, but he was a carpenter, not a shepherd. And he never wrote anything down. It was supposedly the children of his apostles taking dictation from their fathers, or perhaps writing it from memories they had of stories their fathers told them.

Not to pick nits, but he was a carpenter, not a shepherd. And he never wrote anything down. It was supposedly the children of his apostles taking dictation from their fathers, or perhaps writing it from memories they had of stories their fathers told them.
Wait... wasn't he also a fisherman?

Not to pick nits, but he was a carpenter, not a shepherd. And he never wrote anything down. It was supposedly the children of his apostles taking dictation from their fathers, or perhaps writing it from memories they had of stories their fathers told them.

I thought they wrote the bible under "divine inspiration." and you too can purchase divine inspiration dealer at your nearest local drug-dealer!

I thought they wrote the bible under "divine inspiration." and you too can purchase divine inspiration dealer at your nearest local drug-dealer!

Buy now and get a discount on your next indulgence! :D

hey how about we just leave this thread to die, weasel.

Not to pick nits, but he was a carpenter, not a shepherd. And he never wrote anything down. It was supposedly the children of his apostles taking dictation from their fathers, or perhaps writing it from memories they had of stories their fathers told them.
Actually, we're pretty sure each of the four gospels was written by the person it's attributed to, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. John's the latest, around maybe 70 or 80 AD.

Wait... wasn't he also a fisherman?
Nah, he was a carpenter cat, just hung out with fishermen.

hey how about we just leave this thread to die, weasel.

I guess... we must take our desire to spread chaos elsewhere.

Who created God?

If matter and energy had to be created, the thing that created them had to be created too. God is not exempt from the laws binding everything else, after all. And Markiria's "atheist" friend sounds more like she was teasing him for being so, um, credulous. Yeah, that works.

Then you aren't talking about major religions, but rather a few select religions that meet some arbitrary standard of size.

Isn't the definition of "major religion" necessarily arbitrary? "Let's cut it off here." "No, no. I say we cut it off here." "Well, I'm a Christian and I say there really aren't any other 'major' religions because mine is the only true one."

I guess where this is going is pointing out that you're only getting into a shouting match w/ somone else over whose definition of "major religion" has more authority.

You should see if she puts out.

0mfg! You WIN! Thread over!

Actually, we're pretty sure each of the four gospels was written by the person it's attributed to, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. John's the latest, around maybe 70 or 80 AD.


I hope this is a joke.

Dont you just hate them...I mean really they get on my last nerve!!! Ok how can you not belive in an higher power? Who made the universe? Gas you say....well who made that. It all boils down that their is a god out their. Just because you dont see something doesnt make it right to say it isnt their.

Their is this one Atheist at my school right..Well she is kinda cool...sleezy really but back to the point she HATES god and say's she will take over heaven and kill all the angels....CRAZY.......People who think that are goin to hell faster then the press found out about Madonna's new haircut and that was fast!!!!

And In my country the GRAND USA...*Plays Anthem*.....sorry world people have fought and one to ban the 10 rule that god laid down...You cant even say the "under god" thing in schools anymore its flippin crazy. Religion is the heart of america and without god their is no country. AMEN!!!!! Anyway for all you atheist out their why must you taunt everyone else and why dont you belive in anything...When you die you better belive or your goin to hell with Osama!:sniper:

*gets sheild out for backlash!!*

Forgive spelling!

Wait, I'm supposed to believe that something with no grasp of logic that can compose a miserable exuse for a post such as yours was designed by a godlike intelligence? Nope, sorry.

I hope this is a joke.

Uhm ... why do you say that?

Religion is not spirituality, it is a substitute for knowing. You can only know if you allow your mind to be silent.

I really, really like that. Thank you.

Wait... wasn't he also a fisherman?

No. That was Paul. Or Peter. Fuck, I forget at the moment, but Jesus was a carpenter by trade. One or more of the apostles were fishermen.

Actually, we're pretty sure each of the four gospels was written by the person it's attributed to, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. John's the latest, around maybe 70 or 80 AD.

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time finding any source for this for a number of reasons right now. Help?

Also, around 70 or 80 AD, eh? That's some pretty decrepit old geezers to have the steady hand and fortitude required to write lengthy gospels with ancient writing tools, especially considering the condition of the medical establishment at the time. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're sure they didn't write it themselves, but had it written for them, whether in the form of dictation or, again, from the memories of those they told the stories to.

Originally Posted by White Separatists
Religion is not spirituality, it is a substitute for knowing. You can only know if you allow your mind to be silent.

That's the reason why in Jesuites we silence people who do not agree with us.
Atheists are too much agressive and they mind too much of people in need of beleiving in our crazy stories.
Our borders are closed to these people.

In Jesuites we want to be free to tell the stories we want to our folks. That's why I' re-writting new Scriptures.

Dont you just hate them...I mean really they get on my last nerve!!! Ok how can you not belive in an higher power? Who made the universe? Gas you say....well who made that. It all boils down that their is a god out their. Just because you dont see something doesnt make it right to say it isnt their.

Their is this one Atheist at my school right..Well she is kinda cool...sleezy really but back to the point she HATES god and say's she will take over heaven and kill all the angels....CRAZY.......People who think that are goin to hell faster then the press found out about Madonna's new haircut and that was fast!!!!

And In my country the GRAND USA...*Plays Anthem*.....sorry world people have fought and one to ban the 10 rule that god laid down...You cant even say the "under god" thing in schools anymore its flippin crazy. Religion is the heart of america and without god their is no country. AMEN!!!!! Anyway for all you atheist out their why must you taunt everyone else and why dont you belive in anything...When you die you better belive or your goin to hell with Osama!:sniper:

*gets sheild out for backlash!!*

Forgive spelling!

And every american should be/is christian? After all you are always talking how free your country is (at least for corporations) and now you are putting a stereotype on your own country. Believing in nothing, hmm... as a one of them I would recommed seeing my signature(for not repeasenting all of us atheists, of course)
And for the proving god by saying "he still might be there" see this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_pink_unicorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_pink_unicorn)
This "soul" of christian beliefs is your consciousness, which is binded to your brain, and when your brain with your body dies, so will your consciousness.

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time finding any source for this for a number of reasons right now. Help?

Also, around 70 or 80 AD, eh? That's some pretty decrepit old geezers to have the steady hand and fortitude required to write lengthy gospels with ancient writing tools, especially considering the condition of the medical establishment at the time. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're sure they didn't write it themselves, but had it written for them, whether in the form of dictation or, again, from the memories of those they told the stories to.

Look up "Gospel of Mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_matthew)" etc in Wiki. That'll get you started. According to that article, conservative scholars feel that one was written between 60 and 65 AD, before the destruction of the Temple by the Romans.

The Gospel of Matthew is held generally to be slightly later, between late 60s and early 70s AD.

The Gospel of Luke has been dated between 50 and 100 AD. Some scholars, and Christians generally, feel that Luke wrote under the direction of Saint Paul, if not at Paul's dictation. The Acts of the Apostles is a continuation of the Gospel.

The Gospel of John is generally thought to have been written at the end of the 1st century, around 90 AD.

Yes, it does make some of the Gospel writers, especially John, very old, but there's nothing wrong with that necessarily. Not everyone died at 40 in ancient times. Dictation is certainly possible, it was a standard practice in those days.

<snip>

Interesting that the wiki entries all state that the gospel authorship is anonymous, but "traditionally" attributed to the currently accepted authors, with the origin of the tradition dating somwhere in the 2nd century AD, decades after the works were supposedly written. It's pretty apparent that no one knows for sure who DID write them, so saying definitively who they were written by is another act of faith.

Interesting that the wiki entries all state that the gospel authorship is anonymous, but "traditionally" attributed to the currently accepted authors, with the origin of the tradition dating somwhere in the 2nd century AD, decades after the works were supposedly written. It's pretty apparent that no one knows for sure who DID write them, so saying definitively who they were written by is another act of faith.

Well, okay, I suppose that's true. Still, it depends on how much historical accuracy you're willing to concede to the people who created Christianity. Were there actually four guys, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Was Saint Paul even real?

You know, until recently there was no reference to the House of David outside the Bible. An inscription was found, done by one of the countries round about ancient Israel, that actually does say that. The Assyrians and Egyptians refer to Israel and Judaea, but not to David or to Solomon. The fog gets very thick, the farther back you go.

hahahahahaha I just saw the OP and now I'm laughing my ass off!:p

OK God exists cos you say so I geddit. All because you can't understand a concept where he/she/it/they don't! :rolleyes:

whatever. Each to their own. My atheism isn't harming anyone. Deal with it.

Why agnosticism cannot be a shared position with atheists or theists. Agnosticism precludes both.
Agnosticism precludes any relevant belief on the subject, but athiesm doesn't necessarily entail relevant belief.

I think you're incorreclty defining atheism as the belief that god does not exist. In fact, atheism is the absence of a belief that god does exist - that's all.
Why is it beyond reason to state that one cannot prove or disprove a god's existence?
In order for you reasonably to believe that something is impossible, it would need to be demonstrably impossible, and I don't think it is.

Look up "Gospel of Mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_matthew)" etc in Wiki. That'll get you started. According to that article, conservative scholars feel that one was written between 60 and 65 AD, before the destruction of the Temple by the Romans.

The Gospel of Matthew is held generally to be slightly later, between late 60s and early 70s AD.

The Gospel of Luke has been dated between 50 and 100 AD. Some scholars, and Christians generally, feel that Luke wrote under the direction of Saint Paul, if not at Paul's dictation. The Acts of the Apostles is a continuation of the Gospel.

The Gospel of John is generally thought to have been written at the end of the 1st century, around 90 AD.

Yes, it does make some of the Gospel writers, especially John, very old, but there's nothing wrong with that necessarily. Not everyone died at 40 in ancient times. Dictation is certainly possible, it was a standard practice in those days.
Isn't Mark the one who said we're not allowed to eat figs? (Mark 11:14)

And why would that make Luke old? There's no evidence Luke was born before the death of Jesus.

Isn't Mark the one who said we're not allowed to eat figs? (Mark 11:14)

And why would that make Luke old? There's no evidence Luke was born before the death of Jesus.

Figs are okay.

I suppose Luke might have been born after the death of Jesus. He's really old (and dead) now.

Dont you just hate them...I mean really they get on my last nerve!!! Ok how can you not belive in an higher power? Who made the universe? Gas you say....well who made that. It all boils down that their is a god out their. Just because you dont see something doesnt make it right to say it isnt their.

Their is this one Atheist at my school right..Well she is kinda cool...sleezy really but back to the point she HATES god and say's she will take over heaven and kill all the angels....CRAZY.......People who think that are goin to hell faster then the press found out about Madonna's new haircut and that was fast!!!!

And In my country the GRAND USA...*Plays Anthem*.....sorry world people have fought and one to ban the 10 rule that god laid down...You cant even say the "under god" thing in schools anymore its flippin crazy. Religion is the heart of america and without god their is no country. AMEN!!!!! Anyway for all you atheist out their why must you taunt everyone else and why dont you belive in anything...When you die you better belive or your goin to hell with Osama!:sniper:

*gets sheild out for backlash!!*

Forgive spelling!

:upyours:

You are a fucked up little piece of shit. I am 13, like you, and an atheist/maltheist. I am also American, and you are the kind of person (are you even a person :confused: ) who I detest. I hate evangelists who find it necessary to shove religion down other's throats. You, offense intended, are the reason I became a maltheist. You're also really bad at arguing and you are using strawman arguments.

Idiot, defenestrate thyself, because you make me sick.

Dont you just hate them...I mean really they get on my last nerve!!! Ok how can you not belive in an higher power? Who made the universe? Gas you say....well who made that. It all boils down that their is a god out their. Just because you dont see something doesnt make it right to say it isnt their.

Their is this one Atheist at my school right..Well she is kinda cool...sleezy really but back to the point she HATES god and say's she will take over heaven and kill all the angels....CRAZY.......People who think that are goin to hell faster then the press found out about Madonna's new haircut and that was fast!!!!

And In my country the GRAND USA...*Plays Anthem*.....sorry world people have fought and one to ban the 10 rule that god laid down...You cant even say the "under god" thing in schools anymore its flippin crazy. Religion is the heart of america and without god their is no country. AMEN!!!!! Anyway for all you atheist out their why must you taunt everyone else and why dont you belive in anything...When you die you better belive or your goin to hell with Osama!:sniper:

*gets sheild out for backlash!!*

Forgive spelling!

You know, you're not helping promote reasoning and understanding between unbelievers and thumpers. Just thought you might want to know that.

Oh well, you won't listen. Jesus was black, Ronald Reagan is the Devil, and the Government is lying to you about 9/11!

Maybe that will jar you're closed mind open.

Their is this one Atheist at my school right..Well she is kinda cool...sleezy really but back to the point she HATES god and say's she will take over heaven and kill all the angels....How juvenile. Both of you.
You do realize that a real atheist is not likely to threaten to go someplace she doesn't believe exists and kill beings she doesn't believe exists? Don't you?
I don't hate God. I just don't believe in him. Or Santa Claus.

How juvenile. Both of you.
You do realize that a real atheist is not likely to threaten to go someplace she doesn't believe exists and kill beings she doesn't believe exists? Don't you?
I don't hate God. I just don't believe in him. Or Santa Claus.

Wait, what's this about Santa Claus? :eek:

How juvenile. Both of you.
You do realize that a real atheist is not likely to threaten to go someplace she doesn't believe exists and kill beings she doesn't believe exists? Don't you?
I don't hate God. I just don't believe in him. Or Santa Claus.

But God's a Republican, and Santa's a Democrat. Surely you must believe in one of them? :p

How juvenile. Both of you.
You do realize that a real atheist is not likely to threaten to go someplace she doesn't believe exists and kill beings she doesn't believe exists? Don't you?
I don't hate God. I just don't believe in him. Or Santa Claus.

i kind of like the idea that the best way to demonstrate that you don't believe in santa is to invade the north pole and kill all of his elves and flying reindeer. that'll teach him to be fictional!

i kind of like the idea that the best way to demonstrate that you don't believe in santa is to invade the north pole and kill all of his elves and flying reindeer. that'll teach him to be fictional!

Hey, you don't have to do anything, pretty soon the Arctic ice cap will melt from global warming and that will be the end of him.

Forgive spelling!

This last line is my favorite part. Spelling is the least of the problems in that post.

But God's a Republican, and Santa's a Democrat. Surely you must believe in one of them? :p
I choose to believe in neither.

I choose to believe in neither.

didn't we agree on leaving this worthless thread to die.

Don't mind me. I'm just maliciously not believing in god at you.

Rawr.

I could write a story about how I created the universe in 7 days

Yours would be much more creative and amusing I am sure.

There are people not believing in Santa Clause in his coke-red coat? I'm shocked! Your consume system is founded on him, you'll ruin the economy!

By the way - everyone knows, that the earth is Huge big thing, created of the wizards of the Unseen University.

Do you really think that a god would be so crazy and create something like a quantum?

I'm a Christian myself but I can't say I agree with the first post on this topic, hardly a good way to build relationships between believers & non-believers.

I think people have a right to believe whatever they want, I'll follow my beliefs and everyone else can follow theres, if people respects my beliefs then I'll respect there's aswell.

To be fair there are people on each side who are as bad as each other, people of any religion who attack/hate people of a different/no religion are breaking a golden rule that most faiths agree on, to love others.

On the other side you get atheists who instantly write off all people with a faith as being closed minded & hypocritical bigots (which by saying that they are being closed minded & hypocritical themselves.) Or as being mentally defficient (don't even try saying these people don't exist, I had the displeasure of knowing one). In many ways these people are worse than the ones they hate as they have effectively become what they hated.

Neither extreme is a good thing, in a world which is getting more aggressive by the year people need to be able to get along despite differences.

didn't we agree on leaving this worthless thread to die.

Yes... *slinks off*

I'm a Christian myself but I can't say I agree with the first post on this topic, hardly a good way to build relationships between believers & non-believers.

I think people have a right to believe whatever they want, I'll follow my beliefs and everyone else can follow theres, if people respects my beliefs then I'll respect there's aswell.

To be fair there are people on each side who are as bad as each other, people of any religion who attack/hate people of a different/no religion are breaking a golden rule that most faiths agree on, to love others.

On the other side you get atheists who instantly write off all people with a faith as being closed minded & hypocritical bigots (which by saying that they are being closed minded & hypocritical themselves.) Or as being mentally defficient (don't even try saying these people don't exist, I had the displeasure of knowing one). In many ways these people are worse than the ones they hate as they have effectively become what they hated.

Neither extreme is a good thing, in a world which is getting more aggressive by the year people need to be able to get along despite differences.

You would think so, wouldn't you? Didn't you realize that you're either with us or against us? There's no middle ground, no respecting another's beliefs (sounds very secularly humanistic to me), go live-and-let-live. Tsk.

And welcome to the Forum, by the way.

This last line is my favorite part. Spelling is the least of the problems in that post.

and the only thing he/she's asking forgiveness for... :p

They should have asked forgiveness for being an asshole and completely trolling and being a n00b. The only troll I've met is MTAE, so this is worse.

Markiria<----:sniper:<----me

(I know gun smileys are n00bish but just for once? :))

Person who guesses closest to his age wins a cookie.

I guess 11

I think he said he was 13 once.

The universe just came POOF! into existance. You can;t say no because supposedly "God" cam POOF! into existance, so why not the universe...

But God's a Republican, and Santa's a Democrat. Surely you must believe in one of them? :p
I believe in a third party candidate: Saint iGNUcius of the Church of EMACS.

By the way - everyone knows, that the earth is Huge big thing, created of the wizards of the Unseen University.

You win the thread, CMOT Dibbler.

I believe in a third party candidate: Saint iGNUcius of the Church of EMACS.

Rejistania, you know the GNOME at the end of the road?

Dont you just hate them...I mean really they get on my last nerve!!! Ok how can you not belive in an higher power? Who made the universe? Gas you say....well who made that. It all boils down that their is a god out their. Just because you dont see something doesnt make it right to say it isnt their.

Their is this one Atheist at my school right..Well she is kinda cool...sleezy really but back to the point she HATES god and say's she will take over heaven and kill all the angels....CRAZY.......People who think that are goin to hell faster then the press found out about Madonna's new haircut and that was fast!!!!

Atheists don't hate God because they don't believe in God. There is also an explanation for how the universe works and how started without appealing to God. This project isn't finished yet, but one day it is likely that there will be an explanation of how the universe works and began tht is complete and, again, there will be no mention of God. So, how can you blame someone for not believing in God when they do not need to?

Uhm ... why do you say that?

Why do I say that I hope you were joking?

Because there is no evidence to support any of the gospels haveing been written by, dictated by, or even discussed in a room near, anyone bearing the same names as the documents currently carry.

The earliest manuscripts are all untitled and anonymous... that whole "Gospel of Mark" thing bunged in at the top, didn't happen until a very long time after the texts were written.

Note - I'm not discussing whether they are true or not - just disputing that it is in any way 'proved' who wrote them.

It is also worth noting, most scholars agree that several of the Gospel texts also might be 'based on' an earlier (lost) gospel text - which is referred to as "Q". Very few serious scholars on the matetr actually hold to a version of the story where each of the Gospel texts is directly dictated in some fashion, by God, to a dude bearing the name the current texts claim.

I hate hate-haters...

I hate hate-haters...

I don't mind player-haters.

I have some friends who are atheist. I don't hate them. :)

So is Atheism, the most rational approach is agnosticism.

nah, agnosticism is pretty irrational too, i mean how do you know that you dont know?

athiests and thiests are both so boring! the best people are the thiests who hate god or prefer sumthin else and the athiests who have some really weird non-conformist view!

I fail to see what's irrational about refusing to believe that which you cannot see..

Why do I say that I hope you were joking?

Because there is no evidence to support any of the gospels haveing been written by, dictated by, or even discussed in a room near, anyone bearing the same names as the documents currently carry.

The earliest manuscripts are all untitled and anonymous... that whole "Gospel of Mark" thing bunged in at the top, didn't happen until a very long time after the texts were written.

Note - I'm not discussing whether they are true or not - just disputing that it is in any way 'proved' who wrote them.

It is also worth noting, most scholars agree that several of the Gospel texts also might be 'based on' an earlier (lost) gospel text - which is referred to as "Q". Very few serious scholars on the matetr actually hold to a version of the story where each of the Gospel texts is directly dictated in some fashion, by God, to a dude bearing the name the current texts claim.

Well, I was merely stating what I understood, with a bit of back-up from Wiki (not because WIki is necessarily infallible but because it's so damn easy to use).

The Q material comes into the three Synoptic Gospels, if anywhere. St John's Gospel isn't in the same class, being almost a philosophical work rather than a narrative of Jesus' life. I've read that "Matthew" may well have had "Mark's" work before him when writing his own gospel, and "Luke" might have had both (which may explain the concordances among the three). And if "Luke" really did work with Paul, he may have had access to others from the Jerusalem Church, who may have known Jesus.

And no, I was certainly not saying that any of the four gospels was dictated by God to anyone at all. They were all written by men, at some remove from the events described, with the express purpose of spreading the news about a guy they considered miraculous.

I fail to see what's irrational about refusing to believe that which you cannot see..

We can't see protons or electrons.

Difference with god though, is we can determine their [protons and electrons] existence from measurements.

nah, agnosticism is pretty irrational too, i mean how do you know that you dont know?
By keeping careful track of what you do know. Everything else is stuff you don't know.

Remember Rummy. There are known knowns, and there are known unknowns.

We can't see protons or electrons.

Getting pretty close. After all, we can see atoms.

Getting pretty close. After all, we can see atoms.

Of course, the problem with quantum mechanics is that it's entirely theoretical; we can't observe it and our knowledge comes only from mathematical and physical abstractions as opposed to direct observation. So, we're believing in something that can't possibly be seen; it's based upon mathematical models, but can't be tested in the empirical sense.

Not that that's a bad thing, but it is true.

At least it's comforting to know that this universe is probablistic rather than deterministic.

When you die you better belive or your goin to hell with Osama!:sniper:

O RLY?

In Hell I can kick Osama in the balls as many times I like. What can I do in heaven with your arrogant, abusive God?

I'm a maltheist, by the way. If your God really does exist (which I hope not) then he's Satan.

Well, I was merely stating what I understood, with a bit of back-up from Wiki (not because WIki is necessarily infallible but because it's so damn easy to use).

The Q material comes into the three Synoptic Gospels, if anywhere. St John's Gospel isn't in the same class, being almost a philosophical work rather than a narrative of Jesus' life. I've read that "Matthew" may well have had "Mark's" work before him when writing his own gospel, and "Luke" might have had both (which may explain the concordances among the three). And if "Luke" really did work with Paul, he may have had access to others from the Jerusalem Church, who may have known Jesus.


I know all this already. The existence or non-existence of a "Q" scripture in no way suggests it to be more 'likely' that the four gospels were written by the persons to whom you said they were tracable.

Most scholars agree there are at least two 'Johns' writing scriptural texts, since 'Revelation' has many stylistic and lingusitic differences from the 'Gospel According to John' - but that doesn't mean that either of these authors was actually called "John" - or had any contact with any 'John' mentioned anywhere else in scripture.

It does, however, suggest that scripture has been incorrectly attributed, repeatedly, for almost two thousand years - since early attributions made there be only one 'John', the author of the 'gospel of', the 'letters of' and the 'revelation of' someone called John.

So - we know that the common 'attribution' is very likely wrong, in at least this case. We also have doubts about the origins of other epistles... and the Gsopels suggest two distinct sources, no matter what name is attached. Clearly the assertion that the Gospels were known to have been written by the people for whom they are named... is not true.


And no, I was certainly not saying that any of the four gospels was dictated by God to anyone at all. They were all written by men, at some remove from the events described, with the express purpose of spreading the news about a guy they considered miraculous.

And, here you go again. You make big claims on little evidence.

We do not have any 'evidence' for why the Gospels - or any other scriptural text - were written. Were they recording the actual lifetime activities of one guy they considered miraculous? Or - were they a collection of stories around one single figure - a mythical accretion - like King Arthur, or Robin Hood? There were a large number of claimants to the title of Messiah at that point - maybe the scriptures started out as a catalogue of different messianic stories, and became one?