NationStates Jolt Archive

I suspect that it's a lot due to something akin to this... (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/54876)
Best headline ever.

Best headline ever.

It is pretty good, but I'm still fond of Canadian Girlfriend Unconfirmed.

As if the Onion was part of the discussion, they have another characterization of one of the underlying themes... (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/54713) Man I love that paper.

Sorry, but I think that's terrible advice.

You shouldn't decide whether you want to go out with a girl until AFTER you are already friends with her. If you haven't gotten to know her well enough to be friends, then you don't know her well enough to know if you'd like to go out with her.

It's fine to tell her you're attracted to her, to get that out in the open, but you shouldn't be deciding which girls to go with just because they look pretty or you feel some initial attraction. That's a great way to have shallow, failed relationships piling up one after the other.

When I say 'don't befriend' I mean that you should not spend a long time firmly placing yourself in a platonic friendship position. I view 'friendship' as someone you knwo very well, much more well than I think you need to know to ask them out. I also do not mean just walk up and ask out - although I think walking up and honestly saying you're interested is fine.

I think if you meet a girl on a night out/whenever really, and like the look of her and enjoy talking to her then I would say that would be enough to ask someone out. You then find out how well you get on on subsequent dates.

I think it's easy to get to know someone well enough to decide it would be likely you could be friends in a very short time. This level of knowing someone is a good place to ask someone out.

Seriously though, I'm gonna be done with my exams in a few weeks time, leaving me with basically three months of holidays. I'm not gonna spend them on NSG again like last year, I don't think I wanna put myself through that guilt again.

Which just leaves me with one thing: Do what my mates here do...which is going to bars and clubs. I suppose there's no better place to learn, but I still don't like the crowds and the heat.

Don't bother. Seriously.

Going out for the express purpose of meeting women is an incredibly expensive, disappointing and depressing proposition. I can deal with the expensive if i'm there to get drunk and enjoy myself, (which I find hard in a crowded place full of sweating idiots at the best of times, and all of the clubs that play good music have nothing but men in them anyway, so let's assume we're talking your average bog-standard nightclub) but making conversation with women invariably leads to me being scabbed for drinks....or worse, being told to fuck off (and in one case, the girl went straight to the bouncer and complained after a "Hi, i'm Chris" and I was told to leave.). Luckily for me, I never encountered the famous "OIWHATYOUSAYINTOMAHGIRLFRIEND"*punch* reaction.

Honestly.

If you're not already one of those people who can easily talk to women or is super-hot, it's not worth bothering going to clubs in order to meet people. Stay on NSG. It's easier and cheaper than many nights of feeling like crap after being faced with rejection.

When I say 'don't befriend' I mean that you should not spend a long time firmly placing yourself in a platonic friendship position. I view 'friendship' as someone you knwo very well, much more well than I think you need to know to ask them out. I also do not mean just walk up and ask out - although I think walking up and honestly saying you're interested is fine.

I think if you meet a girl on a night out/whenever really, and like the look of her and enjoy talking to her then I would say that would be enough to ask someone out. You then find out how well you get on on subsequent dates.

I think it's easy to get to know someone well enough to decide it would be likely you could be friends in a very short time. This level of knowing someone is a good place to ask someone out.
I don't think anybody, male or female, should lower their standards so far as to date somebody who sees platonic friendship and attraction as mutually exclusive. That's boring and immature, and the sort of person who feels that way will probably be a very tiresome mate.

If you just want to fuck, then that's fine. But if you're looking for a companion, don't bother even asking out somebody until you've been PLATONIC friends with them for a while.

It is much better to learn about who they are without all the complications and muddle of romantic interaction, because then you aren't distracted by that stuff and you can learn about them as an individual before you try to figure out them as a mate. You'll learn more about who they really are, this way, and you'll be better able to decide if you would be compatible as a couple.

If they can't handle a transition from platonic friends to dating couple, then they aren't worth dating. Find somebody better.

I don't think anybody, male or female, should lower their standards so far as to date somebody who sees platonic friendship and attraction as mutually exclusive. That's boring and immature, and the sort of person who feels that way will probably be a very tiresome mate.

If you just want to fuck, then that's fine. But if you're looking for a companion, don't bother even asking out somebody until you've been PLATONIC friends with them for a while.

It is much better to learn about who they are without all the complications and muddle of romantic interaction, because then you aren't distracted by that stuff and you can learn about them as an individual before you try to figure out them as a mate. You'll learn more about who they really are, this way, and you'll be better able to decide if you would be compatible as a couple.

If they can't handle a transition from platonic friends to dating couple, then they aren't worth dating. Find somebody better.

Hmm... I choose my friends based on people who I like as friends, and my girlfriends based on people who I like as girlfriends - and now fiance.

I have female friends who are very attractive, but I am friends with them rather thab boyfriends with them as I prefer their personality and company as a friend rather than a more intimate companion.

Really - aside from being already taken, I'd be pissed if a female friend decided she wanted a romantic relationship wiht me, or even just sex. I value friends very highly and don't like the prospect of losing a friend because they want to be my girlfriend - when if we were going to go that route we would ahve dont so much much earlier. The whole point to me of a platonic friend is that you DON'T want to have a romantic relationship with them. I don't see how this is really possible if one party is clearly interested in more, particuylary if they ahve stated their interest.

I have met girls who although finding attractive I have known from the off that i'd rather have them as a friend than a girlfriend, and vice versa. I have also met (many) girls who dispite finding visually attractive I have had no desire to have them as a friend OR girlfriend.

There's a lot you can tell from soneone in a short space of time. You might not know everything about who they are but you should be able to quickly gague wether they are the sort of person you want any sort of relationship with.

Hmm... I choose my friends based on people who I like as friends, and my girlfriends based on people who I like as girlfriends - and now fiance.

A mate must certainly possess some qualities that a friend does not need to have. For instance, I don't need to be physically attracted to a person to be their friend, but I do need to feel physically attracted to my mate. Or, to get away from the physical side of it, there is a degree of intimacy that is not required for a person to be a friend, but without which a romantic relationship would be rather pointless.

However, all the qualities of a friend must be present in a mate for them to reach the bare minimum standards. If a person is does not have the qualities I look for in a friend, then they will obviously not be suitable as a mate.


I have female friends who are very attractive, but I am friends with them rather thab boyfriends with them as I prefer their personality and company as a friend rather than a more intimate companion.

Sure. But do you have (or have you had) any mate who would not meet the standards to be your friend? Would you date somebody who you would not be friends with?


Really - aside from being already taken, I'd be pissed if a female friend decided she wanted a romantic relationship wiht me, or even just sex.

That's your business, of course, but I find that attitude bizarre. I would not be "pissed" at a friend for feeling attracted to me. I would not be "pissed" at a friend for wanting a romantic relationship or a sexual one, provided that they respected my wishes on the subject. If they approached me and I told them I was not interested, I would expect them to respect that. If they could not, then THAT would be a reason to stop being friends. But them simply wanting sex or a relationship would not be a problem at all.

Hell, in college pretty much every friendship I was involved in had to deal with the issue of attraction and dating, since we were all horny buggers who were interested in everybody around us! :D


I value friends very highly and don't like the prospect of losing a friend because they want to be my girlfriend - when if we were going to go that route we would ahve dont so much much earlier.

I don't want to lose a friend over something like that, either. Which is why I am not close friends with the kind of people who are unable to maintain friendships under such circumstances.

Of course, I am still close friends with people I have slept with, and it's never been a problem for me. I am close friends with people I have gone on dates with, or people who have at one time expressed romantic interest in me (or who I have expressed interest in). It's never been a problem for me to maintain a platonic relationship after such things. Maybe I'm weird like that, and the people who tend to seek friendship with me are likewise weird. It wouldn't surprise me if that were the case.


The whole point to me of a platonic friend is that you DON'T want to have a romantic relationship with them. I don't see how this is really possible if one party is clearly interested in more, particuylary if they ahve stated their interest.

I don't know if I could articulate how this sort of thing would work, because it's just self-evident to me. I don't say this to insult you or to imply I'm smarter than you or anything like that, I just honestly can't figure out how to explain it because it's just how things work with me.

Being attracted to somebody just doesn't wreck a friendship, for me...maybe it does for other people, but it never has for me. I don't know "how" I maintain friendships under these circumstances, I just do so because it never really occurs to me to do otherwise. Why should being attracted to somebody make you stop being friends? Why should them being attracted to you get in the way of friendship?

Some people choose to handle their feelings poorly. Some people react badly to rejection, or aren't yet comfortable dealing with their own feelings of attraction. Sometimes that wrecks a friendship. But that's about the individual's choices and how they deal with their situation, not about the actual feelings of attraction.


I have met girls who although finding attractive I have known from the off that i'd rather have them as a friend than a girlfriend, and vice versa. I have also met (many) girls who dispite finding visually attractive I have had no desire to have them as a friend OR girlfriend.

Me too. In fact, my current lover is somebody who I initially assumed would not make a good mate specifically BECAUSE he was so physically attractive to me. Usually the people I found most physically attractive tended to have personalities that were incompatible with mine (for whatever reason), so I basically assumed that I couldn't possibly get along with somebody so hot. :P


There's a lot you can tell from soneone in a short space of time. You might not know everything about who they are but you should be able to quickly gague wether they are the sort of person you want any sort of relationship with.
Well, yeah, you can pretty easily rule out a lot of people from both friendship and romantic relationships. You can lump people into "Yes," "No," and "Maybe" piles, in a sense.

What I'm saying is that there shouldn't be anybody in your "Yes" or "Maybe" girlfriend/boyfriend piles who wouldn't also be in your "Yes" friend pile. If they aren't good enough to be your friend, they aren't good enough to be your mate.

What do I think about "Nice Guys"?

I think it sucks to be one :)

I may have been born malicious and bitter, but I just can't see why one would be the "nice guy". History, both major and minor, is a catalogue of nice guys losing out to those with no scruples. Why row against the current?

That description certainly rings a few bells. However, I do not regret my nature. If being the nice guy means forfeiting physical intimacy then so be it. Everyone needs someone they can just bounce their feelings off without fear of involvement, and I am happy to play that part for people.

all women want is someone who has a credit card and who has "good" socially favoured genetic traits.

However, all the qualities of a friend must be present in a mate for them to reach the bare minimum standards. If a person is does not have the qualities I look for in a friend, then they will obviously not be suitable as a mate.

Sure. But do you have (or have you had) any mate who would not meet the standards to be your friend? Would you date somebody who you would not be friends with?
I think we're mostly talking at cross purposes here. I agree with what you're saying here but I think there is a difference how we approach it. I (think) I make the judgement of friend/girlfriend material at a much earlier stage to you. I decide someone is potential girlfriend material at about the same stage I decide someone is friend material.
I generally know if I like someone pretty quickly. And when I don't. And so I mkae the choice early on and work on the principle of working out the finer details later on. Unless you are going to claim that you have never had a relationship go sour, then I think the chances are that each of our methods work for ourselves, but probably would not work so well for each other.


It's never been a problem for me to maintain a platonic relationship after such things. Maybe I'm weird like that, and the people who tend to seek friendship with me are likewise weird. It wouldn't surprise me if that were the case.

I don't know if I could articulate how this sort of thing would work, because it's just self-evident to me. I don't say this to insult you or to imply I'm smarter than you or anything like that, I just honestly can't figure out how to explain it because it's just how things work with me.
I'm not taking it as you insulting me, I think we just have different attitudes to relationships.
I think an analogy for the difficulty in explaining would be like a gay man trying to explain why he is attracted to men, to a straight man. It's just a different sort of thing to look for. Likewise trying to explain to someone who does no believe in marriage why you do. It's just a different view on relationships.


Me too. In fact, my current lover is somebody who I initially assumed would not make a good mate specifically BECAUSE he was so physically attractive to me. Usually the people I found most physically attractive tended to have personalities that were incompatible with mine (for whatever reason), so I basically assumed that I couldn't possibly get along with somebody so hot. :P

Hmmm... This is exactly what the missus said about me...


Well, yeah, you can pretty easily rule out a lot of people from both friendship and romantic relationships. You can lump people into "Yes," "No," and "Maybe" piles, in a sense.

What I'm saying is that there shouldn't be anybody in your "Yes" or "Maybe" girlfriend/boyfriend piles who wouldn't also be in your "Yes" friend pile. If they aren't good enough to be your friend, they aren't good enough to be your mate.
Agreed.

I sounds ot me like you like to put someone in the friend pile and then into the boyfriend/girlfriend pile. I prefer to make the judgement that I am pretty sure I like the person and skip the friend pile alltogether. Which works fine for me, while I dont think Id like your style.



Of course - all this ignores that many people DO like dating people in a less serious manner - at another time I used to. Not everyone dating even wants to find someone to be with. They might want a light relationship, or even just plain sex. Personally if both people are on the same page then I see little or no harm in such relationships.

As I'm going along in this thread, I just felt like responding to this. Those of you who remember Undelia when he/she first came to this forum will remember a VERy different person. Keeping in mind that the internet is the medium that allows for the msot deception and craziest lies, but taking things at face value, I can verify that Undelia has done a 180. I can't recall a poster that is any more cringeable and vicious than he/she used to be - now I find Undelia more or less reasonable, and rather nice.
I agree, I would say that he was once an enraged neocon Bushevik, became a spaced out anarcho-capitalist, then caveman, then libertarian, then moderate.

Like I said, most guys aren't. Problem is, the "Nice Guys" tend to be very good at tapping into normal feelings of insecurity and frustration, such that even genuinely cool guys will often be found repeating bits of "Nice Guy" propaganda and bullshit. That's why the "Nice Guys" really suck...they start to ruin ACTUAL nice guys.
I know what you mean, e.g. intellectualwhores.com *shudder*

Sure I have. Why would you assume otherwise? Not everybody becomes a resentful asshole just because they don't get their way in every romantic situation.
Must be your apparent "STFU that's tough luck" attitude.