NationStates Jolt Archive

The definition from UrbanDictionary...

A young male who will give up countless hours of his time listening to the problems of his very attractive female friends because they need someone to talk to about their apathetic, Baywatch jock of a boyfriend because no one else will listen or genuinely care. Although always surrounded by beautiful girls the nice guy can’t get a girlfriend or even facilitate the alleviation of certain “drives” because his “ordinary” physical appearance will forever be compared to the Baywatch beach bum’s. The nice guy would never capitalize on a vulnerable girl, objectify or cheat on a girl, he will go out of his way and bend over backwards to help his “friends” and will never ask for anything in return but no matter how intelligent, understanding, humorous, compassionate, trusting or loyal the nice guy is the female cohort will always pass him up and endure any length of abuse, objectification, apathy and cold-heartedness from a man if he has physical attractiveness, fashion, big muscles and chiseled facial features.

The nice guy will eventually realize that his dependability and empathy will never be appreciated and all his friendships with females are all one-sided. This coupled with years of watching girls go for tanned, muscular jerk-offs with nice cars while he desperately hopes someone will realize that how viable he actually is will spawn and incubate the nice guy’s insecurities and he will eventually abandon his views, dumb-down his speech, take-up weight-lifting and switch majors from cancer research with a minor in theoretical physics to playground management so he can devote his time to emulating Baywatch characters and football players so that he will one day be viewed as more than a “nice guy.”

The nice guy will eventually work up the courage to ask out his attractive female friend but will invariably be turned down because she’s so self-centered that she’d never actually had a smidgeon of compassion for the nice guy’s feelings or even realized that he’s interested in girls. After rejecting the nice guy, the girl will downplay the supposed friendship to the point where they never speak again, which in turn will make the nice guy depressed (ironically, he won’t have anyone to talk to) because he’s devoted so much time and energy and has become so warped from being exposed to these kinds of people that he will either live the rest of his life alone in a tiny apartment, jerking off to old Saved by the Bell episodes or get drunk one night and impregnate a 300-pound, cross-eyed derelict who works at Wendy’s and spend the rest of his life being treated like shit.

The whole ‘nice guy’ phenomenon really supports the idea that people primarily care about physical appearances and that shrewdness, selfishness and narcissism will always triumph over compassion, rapport and “inner beauty.”

And I mean real ones, not the emo ones who are actually the exact opposite and are only acting like nice guys for sex.

My "nice guy" has a girlfriend, and I'm not surprised his does, but, he still listens to me whine about what an asshole my boyfriend can be! :D

I'd say, as a "nice guy", that's fairly accurate, but that we can be a bit boring, which is off-putting.

But if anyone ever needs to discuss anything at all, you can email me and things if you like. I'm not just a leftie extremist, I'm also a friendly ear and such.

I will only ever date "nice guys."

I will only ever date "nice guys."

Mmm Hmm... That's what they ALL say.

"Oh, he seemed like such a nice guy. And he really did seem like he loved me!"

Mmm Hmm... That's what they ALL say.

"Oh, he seemed like such a nice guy. And he really did seem like he loved me!"

Why would a militant asexual care what girls think about guys?

Why would a militant asexual care what girls think about guys?
Because they've recently reached puberty?

I think they're generally quite nice...

But seriously, I used to be one. Then I stopped acting like a doormat and cut all ties with my friends from home when I went to uni. Now, life is great. Well, almost.

Why would a militant asexual care what girls think about guys?
Because he is really just suppressing his sexual desires so that girls flock to him! ;)

Why would a militant asexual care what girls think about guys?

It's the fact that they continue to get abusive (physically and emotionally) boyfriends, yet they continue to think that every guy like thier last boyfriend is "completely different", while in fact it's painstakingly obvious that they aren't. Let's not forget they continually give "second chances" to those who have already abused them. It's a sad, sad cycle. I'm more concerned about the girls than me.

Mmm Hmm... That's what they ALL say.

"Oh, he seemed like such a nice guy. And he really did seem like he loved me!"

I say it because it's true, I've only dated one asshat, and that was for a week in Junior High and didn't really count. ;)

I am so sick of hearing about the "nice guy phenomenon" and how nice guys always finish last. What a load of crap. It's true, there are girls who aren't very nice to their male friends and date complete assholes. It's also true that there are guys who aren't very nice to their female friends, and date shallow brainless women. So what's your point?

For the record, my boyfriend is a genuinely nice guy, as are most of my best friends.

Yeah... some (i.e. most) people are losers.

I am so sick of hearing about the "nice guy phenomenon" and how nice guys always finish last.
It's not as clear-cut as described...but believe me, it happens. And the answer is usually quite simple:

1) The "nice" guy isn't nice for the sake of being nice, he (just like the baywatch bum, except maybe on a less physical and more emotional level) wants a girlfriend.

2) Noting that, we can see that the "nice guy" approach is simply the wrong one. Women are quite capable of only liking a guy as a friend, and never being interested in that guy romantically...which seems to be difficult to comprehend for said nice guy. So the nice guy will act as a friend, because he either can't make the distinction between being nice and being a romantic interest, or because he can only do the former...being too nervous or scared to do the latter.

3) Ergo, the problem doesn't so much lie with the girl (as they say, it's just the nature of the beast) - it lies with the nice guy.

Now, if someone can tell me how to properly overcome that problem, I'll be quite thankful.

This is a rather cynical little website. I'm sure most of the ideas on there came up when that guy's heart was shattered...nonetheless, I found it great when I found out the hard way that I was an "intellectual whore" a while back:
http://www.intellectualwhores.com/whyiw.html
http://www.intellectualwhores.com/moreonwhoredom.html
http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

Don't take it too seriously though. ;)

I think the nice guy who's everyone's friend should hook up with nice girl who's everyone's friend. It will help with their self-esteem, and the world will get a duo who genuinely care about people, and can "combine" their powers for double the love.

It's not as clear-cut as described...but believe me, it happens. And the answer is usually quite simple:

1) The "nice" guy isn't nice for the sake of being nice, he (just like the baywatch bum, except maybe on a less physical and more emotional level) wants a girlfriend.

2) Noting that, we can see that the "nice guy" approach is simply the wrong one. Women are quite capable of only liking a guy as a friend, and never being interested in that guy romantically...which seems to be difficult to comprehend for said nice guy. So the nice guy will act as a friend, because he either can't make the distinction between being nice and being a romantic interest, or because he can only do the former...being too nervous or scared to do the latter.

3) Ergo, the problem doesn't so much lie with the girl (as they say, it's just the nature of the beast) - it lies with the nice guy.

Now, if someone can tell me how to properly overcome that problem, I'll be quite thankful.

This is a rather cynical little website. I'm sure most of the ideas on there came up when that guy's heart was shattered...nonetheless, I found it great when I found out the hard way that I was an "intellectual whore" a while back:
http://www.intellectualwhores.com/whyiw.html
http://www.intellectualwhores.com/moreonwhoredom.html
http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

Don't take it too seriously though. ;)

"If you thought something like this you are very likely the average woman. If you read it and went "Hmmm..." and then you went back to doing physics, then you have a case."

Wow, I actually was doing physics. But I'm not a woman, so it evens out.

I am so sick of hearing about the "nice guy phenomenon" and how nice guys always finish last. What a load of crap. It's true, there are girls who aren't very nice to their male friends and date complete assholes. It's also true that there are guys who aren't very nice to their female friends, and date shallow brainless women. So what's your point?

For the record, my boyfriend is a genuinely nice guy, as are most of my best friends.
Thank you!



This is my tribute to the nice girls. To the nice girls who are overlooked, who become friends and nothing more, who spend hours fixating upon their looks and their personalities and their actions because it must be they that are doing something wrong. This is for the girls who don't give it up on the first date, who don't want to play mind games, who provide a comforting hug and a supportive audience for a story they've heard a thousand times. This is for the girls who understand that they aren't perfect and that the guys they're interested in aren't either, for the girls who flirt and laugh and worry and obsess over the slightest glance, whisper, touch, because somehow they are able to keep alive that hope that maybe... maybe this time he'll have understood. This is an homage to the girls who laugh loud and often, who are comfortable in skirts and sweats and combat boots, who care more than they should for guys who don't deserve their attention. This is for those girls who have been in the trenches, who have watched other girls time and time again fake up and make up and fuck up the guys in their lives without saying a word. This is for the girls who have been there from the beginning and have heard the trite words of advice, from "there are plenty of fish in the sea," to "time heals all wounds." This is to honor those girls who know that guys are just as scared as they are, who know that they deserve better, who are seeking to find it.

This is for the girls who have never been in love, but know that it's an experience that they don't want to miss out on. For the girls who have sought a night with friends and been greeted by a night of catcalling, rude comments and explicit invitations that they'd rather not have experienced. This is for the girls who have spent their weekends sitting on the sidelines of a beer pong tournament or a case race, or playing Florence Nightingale for a vomiting guy friend or a comatose crush, who have received a drunk phone call just before dawn from someone who doesn't care enough to invite them over but is still willing to pass out in their bed. This is for the girls who have left sad song lyrics in their away messages, who have tried to make someone understand through a subliminally appealing profile, who have time and time again dropped their male friend hint after hint after hint only to watch him chase after the first blonde girl in a skirt. This is for the girls who have been told that they're too good or too smart or too pretty, who have been given compliments as a way of breaking off a relationship, who have ever been told they are only wanted as a friend.

This one's for the girls who you can take home to mom, but won't because it's easier to sleep with a whore than foster a relationship; this is for the girls who have been led on by words and kisses and touches, all of which were either only true for the moment, or never real to begin with. This is for the girls who have allowed a guy into their head and heart and bed, only to discover that he's just not ready, he's just not over her, he's just not looking to be tied down; this is for the girls who believe the excuses because it's easier to believe that it's not that they don't want you, it's that they don't want anyone. This is for the girls who have had their hearts broken and their hopes dashed by someone too cavalier to have cared in the first place; this is for the nights spent dissecting every word and syllable and inflection in his speech, for the nights when you've returned home alone, for the nights when you've seen from across the room him leaning a little too close, or standing a little too near, or talking a little too softly for the girl he's with to be a random hookup. This is for the girls who have endured party after party in his presence, finally having realized that it wasn't that he didn't want a relationship: it was that he didn't want you. I honor you for the night his dog died or his grandmother died or his little brother crashed his car and you held him, thinking that if you only comforted him just right, or said the right words, or rubbed his back in the right way then perhaps he'd realize what it was that he already had. This is for the night you realized that it would never happen, and the sunrise you saw the next morning after failing to sleep.

This is for the "I really like you, so let's still be friends" comment after you read more into a situation than he ever intended; this is for never realizing that when you choose friends, you seldom choose those which make you cry yourself to sleep. This is for the hugs you've received from your female friends, for the nights they've reassured you that you are beautiful and intelligent and amazing and loyal and truly worthy of a great guy; this is for the despair you all felt as you sat in the aftermath of your tears, knowing that that night the only companionship you'd have was with a pillow and your teddy bear. This is for the girls who have been used and abused, who have endured what he was giving because at least he was giving something; this is for the stupidity of the nights we've believed that something was better than nothing, though his something was nothing we'd have ever wanted. This is for the girls who have been satisified with too little and who have learned never to expect anything more: for the girls who don't think that they deserve more, because they've been conditioned for so long to accept the scraps thrown to them by guys.

This is what I don't understand. Men sit and question and whine that girls are only attracted to the mean guys, the guys who berate them and belittle them and don't appreciate them and don't want them; who use them for sex and think of little else than where their next conquest will be made. Men complain that they never meet nice girls, girls who are genuinely interested and compelling, who are intelligent and sweet and smart and beautiful; men despair that no good women want to share in their lives, that girls play mindgames, that girls love to keep them hanging. Yet, men, I ask you: were you to meet one of these genuinely interested, thrillingly compelling, interesting and intelligent and sweet and beautiful and smart girls, were you to give her your number and wait for her to call... and if you were to receive a call from her the next day and she, in her truthful, loyal, intelligent and straightforward nice girl fashion, were to tell you that she finds you intriguing and attractive and interesting and worth her time and perhaps material from which she could fashion a boyfriend, would you or would you not immediately call your friends to tell them of the "stalker chick" you'd met the night prior, who called you and wore her heart on her sleeve and told the truth? And would you, or would you not, refuse to make plans with her, speak with her, see her again, and once again return to the bar or club or party scene and search once more for this "nice girl" who you just cannot seem to find? Because therein lies the truth, guys: we nice girls are everywhere. But you're not looking for a nice girl. You're not looking for someone genuinely interested in your intermural basketball game, or your anatomy midterm grade, or that argument you keep having with your father; you're looking for a quick fix, a night when you can pretend to have a connection with another human being which is just as disposable as the condom you were using during it.

So don't say you're on the lookout for nice girls, guys, when you pass us up on every step you take. Sometimes we go undercover; sometimes we go in disguise: sometimes when that girl in the low cut shirt or the too tight miniskirt won't answer your catcalls, sometimes you're looking at a nice girl in whore's clothing - - we might say we like the attention, we might blush and giggle and turn back to our friends, but we're all thinking the same thing: "This isn't me. Tomorrow morning, I'll be wearing a teeshirt and flannel shorts, I'll have slept alone and I'll be making my hungover best friend breakfast. See through the disguise. See me." You never do. Why? Because you only see the exterior, you only see the slutty girl who welcomes those advances. You don't want the nice girl.. so don't say you're looking for a relationship: relationships take time and energy and intent, three things we're willing to extend - - but in return, we're looking for compassion and loyalty and trust, three things you never seem willing to express. Maybe nice guys finish last, but in the race they're running they're chasing after the whores and the sluts and the easy-targets... the nice girls are waiting at the finish line with water and towels and a congradulatory hug (and yes, if she's a nice girl and she likes you, the sweatiness probably won't matter), hoping against hope that maybe you'll realize that they're the ones that you want at the end of that silly race.

So maybe it won't last forever. Maybe some of those guys in that race will turn in their running shoes and make their way to the concession stand where we're waiting; however, until that happens, we still have each other, that silly race to watch, and all the chocolate we can eat (because what's a concession stand at a race without some chocolate?)

What's wrong w/ jerking off to old Saved By The Bell episodes? Those girls are hot.

-snip-
If you can, tell them to wear a sign around their necks. :p

I seem to have trouble spotting them, but if I did...believe me, I'd be more than happy to do all the things you mention.

It's not as clear-cut as described...but believe me, it happens. And the answer is usually quite simple:

1) The "nice" guy isn't nice for the sake of being nice, he (just like the baywatch bum, except maybe on a less physical and more emotional level) wants a girlfriend.


That's an important thing to remember. Being nice is 'your' colorful feather or crazy dance, just like stud guys body or dynamic personality or whatever is theirs. Thing is, even a chick who dates lots of guys wouldn't date every chisled body or 'life of the party' or whatever. "Bad guys" or whatever are not garaunteed every chick. Because what they do is right on the surface, so they cast a wider net meaning that they might get to the chick that's into them faster and more often. But just because they look good or whatever it is "you" think is why she wants to date them instead of "you", doesn't mean that every chick they meet is going to like them, and the same applies to "you"-just because "you're" nice.

Nice guys always come out on top in films and on TV. So all I have to do is wait until I see a camera and then I'm sorted ;) , but until then I'll just have to make do with the friendship. :(

"Bad guys" or whatever are not garaunteed every chick. Because what they do is right on the surface, so they cast a wider net meaning that they might get to the chick that's into them faster and more often.
Perhaps true...but of little consolation when the girl you're after is that chick.

God, I prefer a bit more testosterone in a guy than that. I'd prefer someone more akin to me than that -- a nihilistic, (quasi-)intellectual, misanthropic elitist.

And if I were a woman, this type would not attract me - I'd prefer something that is a challenge to dominate...

Perhaps true...but of little consolation when the girl you're after is that chick.

That's gonna happen. Even 'ladies men' strike out, mostly their 'ladies men' because they go after a lot of ladies so eventually they end up with a few.

That's gonna happen. Even 'ladies men' strike out, mostly their 'ladies men' because they go after a lot of ladies so eventually they end up with a few.
Well, it comes down to two options:

1) Become a beach bum yourself. But that is difficult if you're not that sort of guy. It takes a certain amount of shallowness and a thick skin.
2) Keep going as before and hope that eventually you won't end up on the wrong ladder (which seems incredibly unlikely, to be honest). That's gonna take years though, and during that time the nice guy in question is going to be unhappy.

I wonder why it is that there are two types of people like that.

I challenge any one of the bleeding vaginas in this room to dispute my claims.
This stuff is exactly what most women postulate too - treat him like the worthless crap he is, and he will beg for more.

Stupid advice.

Are you a guy or a chick?

Are you a guy or a chick?
A guy... and not one of your sexual persuasion.

You can be nice to people and genuinely care for people without ending up in a one sided relationship as described in the OP. I manage.
Keep going as before and hope that eventually you won't end up on the wrong ladder (which seems incredibly unlikely, to be honest). That's gonna take years though, and during that time the nice guy in question is going to be unhappy.
Resigning oneself to being unhappy is the quickest way to unhappiness.

Resigning oneself to being unhappy is the quickest way to unhappiness.

True. It may also be the wisest course of action.

The definition from UrbanDictionary...


And I mean real ones, not the emo ones who are actually the exact opposite and are only acting like nice guys for sex.

what do i think of them? competition

I've taught myself to no longer be a nice guy and be a bit more confident around girls. I try to inspire an aura of confidence and mystery when I'm going for a girl.

In essence, I've created a new me. I use the alternate me whenever there are potential girls around, and I've gotten good at it. I'm still a nice guy at heart, but if needed, I will act the opposite.

Women are fucked and vaginas are evil.

But yeah, like most heterosexual guys im addicted, though i no longer compromise my integrity or honour just to get pussy.

I used to have that whole 'if im nice to them all the time maybe theyll see what a good choice i am and go for me' mentality but in truth women are ruled by their vaginas and as such need an entity of pure testosterome he-man rapist to sweep them off their feet and take full charge of their lives. Women who deny this only do so cause they know all of the testosterome pumped men in this world wont go near them because theyre so ugly.

Women only use nice guys who have the idiocy and naivity to listen to their lame bitchings to boost their ego and confidence to the point where theyll be able to approach the guy they really want, perhaps the 23 year old whos been held back many grades, and put their vagina and tits on display for his approval. Treat a woman like shit and she will come crawling back to you every time, try it out, I garruantee itll work! I seriously believed all the crap I was raised on that if you are a good person good things will happen to you, fucking bullshit, if you want something in life you have to grab it by the hair, drag it into the bushes and rape the fuck out of it until your satisfied.

I challenge any one of the bleeding vaginas in this room to dispute my claims.

You = The kind of person I'm talking about when I describe the people who abuse their girlfriends.

I used to have that whole 'if im nice to them all the time maybe theyll see what a good choice i am and go for me' mentality but in truth women are ruled by their vaginas and as such need an entity of pure testosterome he-man rapist to sweep them off their feet and take full charge of their lives. Women who deny this only do so cause they know all of the testosterome pumped men in this world wont go near them because theyre so ugly.

Man, I can't imagine why you've had trouble getting women to date you. I know when I hear a man say, "The only reason you'd say you're not a shallow idiot is because you're ugly, hurr hurr hurr!" it just makes me want to jump in the sack with him right then and there! :rolleyes:


*snip*

Wow. That passage hits rather painfully close to home, I must say.

True. It may also be the wisest course of action.

Why be unhappy when you could just as easily be happy?

Nice guys need to understand that women like guys that have a back bone. To fall over yourself for some chick is just pitiful. For the nice guys, I would suggest finding a hobby, and just concentrating on that hobby, sooner or later a girl is bound to come by, and if that girl is a bitch, kick her to the curb.

I used to have that whole 'if im nice to them all the time maybe theyll see what a good choice i am and go for me'

So you wanted to manipulate them into screwing you? Way to be a nice guy.

but in truth women are ruled by their vaginas and as such need an entity of pure testosterome he-man rapist to sweep them off their feet and take full charge of their lives. Women who deny this only do so cause they know all of the testosterome pumped men in this world wont go near them because theyre so ugly.

Actually, psychological studies show that women are attracted to men with less testosterone.

Women only use nice guys who have the idiocy and naivity to listen to their lame bitchings to boost their ego and confidence to the point where theyll be able to approach the guy they really want,

Don't want to hear it, don't listen. Seriously, nice guys need to get a clue. If girls are comfortable enough around to you to vent all thier feelings, it's probably because they consider you a friendly light, not a romantic one.

Treat a woman like shit and she will come crawling back to you every time, try it out, I garruantee itll work!

And you wonder why women didn't want you?

if you want something in life you have to grab it by the hair, drag it into the bushes and rape the fuck out of it until your satisfied.

This made me laugh so hard I fell out of my chair. Bravo, sir.

A young male who will give up countless hours of his time listening to the problems of his very attractive female friends because they need someone to talk to about their apathetic, Baywatch jock of a boyfriend because no one else will listen or genuinely care.

I'm like this, though I listen to what all of my friends say. I'm not a picker and a chooser... I'm genuinely interested in helping my friends out, even when they have rather difficult problems.

Although always surrounded by beautiful girls the nice guy can’t get a girlfriend or even facilitate the alleviation of certain “drives” because his “ordinary” physical appearance will forever be compared to the Baywatch beach bum’s.

Well, this is where my path takes a turn from the description. I have girls of all types staring at me and attempting to flirt with me when I'm out in public. However, I'm not the kind of person who "plays the field", so I'm not having any of that. I want to find somebody who shares interests and feelings with me... Not somebody who gets "hot" because of how I look.

The nice guy would never capitalize on a vulnerable girl, objectify or cheat on a girl, he will go out of his way and bend over backwards to help his “friends” and will never ask for anything in return but no matter how intelligent, understanding, humorous, compassionate, trusting or loyal the nice guy is the female cohort will always pass him up and endure any length of abuse, objectification, apathy and cold-heartedness from a man if he has physical attractiveness, fashion, big muscles and chiseled facial features.

1: No, I would never capitalise on a vulnerable girl, or any vulnerable person, no matter what the situation may be. It's just wrong.

2: I help out people who truly are my friends. And, all of my friends tend to be "true" friends, as I choose them very carefully. I'm not the kind of person who goes out on the town and get the phone numbers of every person I have a conversation with.

3: This really only applies to women who are of that particular mindset... I know plenty who aren't quite so shallow (or shallow whatsoever).

The nice guy will eventually realize that his dependability and empathy will never be appreciated and all his friendships with females are all one-sided.

I'd rather have a lot of life-long friends by truly relating to people than a lot of broken "romantic" relationships. Guys like me take their time with "finding the right one", because in all honesty, the other path is just stupid.

This coupled with years of watching girls go for tanned, muscular jerk-offs with nice cars while he desperately hopes someone will realize that how viable he actually is will spawn and incubate the nice guy’s insecurities and he will eventually abandon his views, dumb-down his speech, take-up weight-lifting and switch majors from cancer research with a minor in theoretical physics to playground management so he can devote his time to emulating Baywatch characters and football players so that he will one day be viewed as more than a “nice guy.”

Again, this only applies to a specific mindset, and that is the shallow mindset. So, a girl wants to chase after a guy because he has a buff body and a nice car? No problem, because I don't want to be with a girl who's just that shallow.

The nice guy will eventually work up the courage to ask out his attractive female friend but will invariably be turned down because she’s so self-centered that she’d never actually had a smidgeon of compassion for the nice guy’s feelings or even realized that he’s interested in girls.

Again... This is the same mindset that was mentioned above. Who the hell wants to be with anyone like that?

After rejecting the nice guy, the girl will downplay the supposed friendship to the point where they never speak again, which in turn will make the nice guy depressed (ironically, he won’t have anyone to talk to) because he’s devoted so much time and energy and has become so warped from being exposed to these kinds of people that he will either live the rest of his life alone in a tiny apartment, jerking off to old Saved by the Bell episodes or get drunk one night and impregnate a 300-pound, cross-eyed derelict who works at Wendy’s and spend the rest of his life being treated like shit.

If somebody is really that pathetic and hopeless in their social exploits, then they deserve that wretched life. One should be able to work out matters on their own, and if they can't, it's tough shit that they couldn't.

The whole ‘nice guy’ phenomenon really supports the idea that people primarily care about physical appearances and that shrewdness, selfishness and narcissism will always triumph over compassion, rapport and “inner beauty.”

I've had enough. :p

Im a nice guy though currently its not because Im trying to get the tang. Its simply because I want to be nice(something new I'm trying out)

Im a nice guy though currently its not because Im trying to get the tang. Its simply because I want to be nice(something new I'm trying out)

Feels good doesn’t’ it?

Why be unhappy when you could just as easily be happy?

Because the "just as easily" part doesn't apply.

Because the "just as easily" part doesn't apply.
Then you're following the path of least resistance.

Then you're following the path of least resistance.

You could say so, yes.

I'm like this, though I listen to what all of my friends say. I'm not a picker and a chooser... I'm genuinely interested in helping my friends out, even when they have rather difficult problems.
Well, this is where my path takes a turn from the description. I have girls of all types staring at me and attempting to flirt with me when I'm out in public. However, I'm not the kind of person who "plays the field", so I'm not having any of that. I want to find somebody who shares interests and feelings with me... Not somebody who gets "hot" because of how I look.
1: No, I would never capitalise on a vulnerable girl, or any vulnerable person, no matter what the situation may be. It's just wrong.
2: I help out people who truly are my friends. And, all of my friends tend to be "true" friends, as I choose them very carefully. I'm not the kind of person who goes out on the town and get the phone numbers of every person I have a conversation with.
3: This really only applies to women who are of that particular mindset... I know plenty who aren't quite so shallow (or shallow whatsoever).
I'd rather have a lot of life-long friends by truly relating to people than a lot of broken "romantic" relationships. Guys like me take their time with "finding the right one", because in all honesty, the other path is just stupid.
Again, this only applies to a specific mindset, and that is the shallow mindset. So, a girl wants to chase after a guy because he has a buff body and a nice car? No problem, because I don't want to be with a girl who's just that shallow.
Again... This is the same mindset that was mentioned above. Who the hell wants to be with anyone like that?
If somebody is really that pathetic and hopeless in their social exploits, then they deserve that wretched life. One should be able to work out matters on their own, and if they can't, it's tough shit that they couldn't.
I've had enough. :p

good job the urbandictionary isn't definitive eh? i must say i hated finding some corollaries with my own life in that definition but i'm glad it didn't all apply to me.

i think it's possible to equate machismo in males to skinnyness in females, it's just what is most commonly protrayed as desirable, it isn't the only thing that is, nor is it the most desirable thing, or, for a lot of people, desirable at all. girls feel pressure to be skinny, boys feel pressure to be macho. thing is if we're just comfortable with ourselves and show it we instantly become more attractive than the posturing types or the shrinking violets.

Then you're following the path of least resistance.

Maybe, or maybe we don't want to change who we are to get there faster, but would prefer to wait.

Feels good doesn’t’ it?

not sure, too early to tell:)

Maybe, or maybe we don't want to change who we are to get there faster, but would prefer to wait.

That works too.

For me, it's a combination of both.

You could say so, yes.

Well that's just sad.

Maybe, or maybe we don't want to change who we are to get there faster, but would prefer to wait.

Get where? Wait for what? Seize the day. Make your current reality the one you are content in.

Well that's just sad.

Yes, it is.

But I also find it amusing. Pathetic losers are funny, even if they're you.

Get where? Wait for what? Seize the day. Make your current reality the one you are content in.

Thats all well and good but for some being a nice guy is due to a lack of confidence or a feeling of insecurity and just can't do that.

Thats all well and good but for some being a nice guy is due to a lack of confidence or a feeling of insecurity and just can't do that.
I'm not talking about being a "nice guy." I'm talking about being a content person and living well. It's all about frame of mind.

You could say so, yes.
Why is this wise to do over pursuing your own happiness?

There are no "nice guys" or "nice girls." Everyone has their own level of self-interest, enlightened or otherwise.

I have a tendency to be totally honest with women: "Y'know...I think that given the opportunity, I'd rightly fuck you into unconsciousness. Well, eventually I'd get to the fucking."

Does it work? Not usually. But it's better than playing idiotic games.

Why is this wise to do over pursuing your own happiness?

Not "why," "when." It is wise to do over pursuing your own happiness when the pursuit of your happiness is futile or extremely difficult.

I have a tendency to be totally honest with women: "Y'know...I think that given the opportunity, I'd rightly fuck you into unconsciousness. Well, eventually I'd get to the fucking."
I do that too. Most take it as a joke, some others take it too seriously.
Not "why," "when." It is wise to do over pursuing your own happiness when the pursuit of your happiness is futile or extremely difficult.
As I keep telling you, happiness is all about your frame of mind. You can make yourself happy irrespective of the situation.

Not "why," "when." It is wise to do over pursuing your own happiness when the pursuit of your happiness is futile or extremely difficult.
And if you miscalculate that it is never wise to do so, or fail to realize that every small action contributes to the sum? You will end up in a state of permanent unhappiness. Such is defeatism.

I will only ever date "nice guys."

Where do you live. I will go there. For you are the only one who will.

I am the poster "Nice Guy", however, I will never dumb myself down to the point in the article.

For example, girl I worked with:

Complained that Boyfriend 1 was cheating on her. I listened, gave advice. She continued to go out with him for several months. Broke up with him. Me, being the nice guy I was, didn't move in out of respect. Then comes BF2. Ho, boy, was this a great one.

BF2 cheated on her, was emotionally abusive, and was a coke-fiend. She complained for months on end about him. All of the girls who were friends with her said to break up with him, as did I. After several months of this, she broke up with him. Like before, I didn't move in being the nice guy and not wanting to take advantage of a vulnerable situation.

BF3 comes along, wash, rinse, repeat. Broke up with him eventually.

All through each of these, all she ever really said was that she wanted a nice guy, who wasn't a jerk, who respected her, who was funny, who was intelligent... basically explaining me. Of course, being the nice guy, I'm sure the thought repulsed her to actually go out with the nice guy.

Now, this happens with almost all of my friends whom are girls. And yet, for all their talk of wanting a nice, intelligent, funny, interesting guy, they go after the same idiots over and over again.

Lesson of the Story: Being the nice guy turns one jaded against the world. We're like the Marines. The Few. The Proud. The Nice.

Now excuse me while I go beat the Anger Stick against the Anger Tree.

I also make no bones about things. I've had women go "Oh, you're so SWEET! So adorable!" I shoot back, "No, I'm not. I'm a mean, bitter, dirty old man. I 'm an asshole, & proud of it. Just wait a little longer." And then eventually they do see it & tell me, "You're an asshole!"

Reply: "Yes, I know that. I told you that from the very beginning. I SAID you needed to listen, sweetheart."

Lately, however, I've run past asshole & zipped at Warp 9 right over the line into full-blown DICK. I used to pride myself on not being a dick, but based on the place I am right now psychoemotionally, I think I need to be a dick to get better.

Yes, it is.

But I also find it amusing. Pathetic losers are funny, even if they're you.
Do you perceive yourself as such then?

As I keep telling you, happiness is all about your frame of mind.

And as I keep telling you, that's absurd.

Do you perceive yourself as such then?

In some respects, yes.

:::raises half a brow::: Are you implying some sort of tangibly-based "Happiness In A Can"?

And as I keep telling you, that's absurd.
He seems to be relying on a sort of Blank Slate type of argument -- that if you will your happiness, it will come naturally to you. Except, humans are not wired that way.

In some respects, yes.
I will admit I am surprised.

As I keep telling you, happiness is all about your frame of mind. You can make yourself happy irrespective of the situation.
What would you say of individuals like me, who are depressive by their very nature, and are happy in misery?

I will admit I am surprised.

It is neither self-hatred nor self-degradation.

It is aggressive honesty combined with a fierce sense of pride.

What would you say of individuals like me, who are depressive by their very nature, and are happy in misery?

I would say that Morrissey & Robert Smith beat you out by about 20 years, & the last thing we need is another emo band.

It is neither self-hatred nor self-degradation.

It is aggressive honesty combined with a fierce sense of pride.
I suppose in the sense that you expect more of yourself?

Nice guys need to understand that women like guys that have a back bone. To fall over yourself for some chick is just pitiful. For the nice guys, I would suggest finding a hobby, and just concentrating on that hobby, sooner or later a girl is bound to come by, and if that girl is a bitch, kick her to the curb.

Where do you live. I will go there. For you are the only one who will.

I am the poster "Nice Guy", however, I will never dumb myself down to the point in the article.

Now, this happens with almost all of my friends whom are girls. And yet, for all their talk of wanting a nice, intelligent, funny, interesting guy, they go after the same idiots over and over again.

Lesson of the Story: Being the nice guy turns one jaded against the world. We're like the Marines. The Few. The Proud. The Nice.

Now excuse me while I go beat the Anger Stick against the Anger Tree.

First, let me explain this to EVERYONE. I am a naturally nice guy. Even when I was emo and trying to be dark and evil I was still naturally being a nice guy. I don't be nice to get chicks. I be nice because I am nice.

Secondly. Girls don't go for nice guys. It's god damned fucking true. Everywhere I look I see girls dating guys for their looks, their money, their social standing, or even just for the sake of having a boyfriend. Problem is all of their boyfriends are total jerks who just abuse them, cheat on them with equally vulnerable women, and only want them for the physical part of the equation.

Thirdly: We are the few. The proud. The nice.

Now allow me to take the anger chainsaw out on the anger redwood.

And as I keep telling you, that's absurd.
It works for me and many others that I know. So it can't be.
He seems to be relying on a sort of Blank Slate type of argument -- that if you will your happiness, it will come naturally to you. Except, humans are not wired that way.
Apparently, I am.
What would you say of individuals like me, who are depressive by their very nature, and are happy in misery?
That you have found what makes you happy. Your happy place.:)

I would say that Morrissey & Robert Smith beat you out by about 20 years, & the last thing we need is another emo band.
If I had some idiotic irrational need to externalize my state of mind, perhaps. What I am referring to is largely internal though, and has nothing to do with whining for the sake of it -- the opposite in fact, I am introverted.

I think the nice guy who's everyone's friend should hook up with nice girl who's everyone's friend. It will help with their self-esteem, and the world will get a duo who genuinely care about people, and can "combine" their powers for double the love.

This works well; I know from personal experience.

I'm told that I'm a "nice guy", and I had a long and fulfilling relationship with a "nice girl" and all of our combined friends were very happy, as were we. We even had a relatively clean breakup and are still good friends.

I've never experienced the "nice guy" thing at my school though, I've been asked out a few times, and I've never wanted to go out with a girl who was a good friend. And I don't know about other people, but I listen to both my girl friends and my guy friends who are having troubles in their lives.

:::narrows eyes::: You're one of those perky upbeat HAPPY people, aren't you?

It works for me and many others that I know. So it can't be.
Do not base general rules of psychology on what "works" for you.

Apparently, I am.
Or maybe not -- maybe you have merely found the element that is most satisfying to you based on your nature.

One doesn't have to be a wimp to be a nice guy. I've never had a relationship with a guy who couldn't be considered a nice guy. I will, however, walk all over a wimp.
I seem to have a bent towards slightly geeky, brainy but confident types.

What would you say of individuals like me, who are depressive by their very nature, and are happy in misery?

Hey, another one. Contention in being nothing is great, ain't it? No expectations of oneself means that failure is non effectual.

Or maybe not -- maybe you have merely found the element that is most satisfying to you based on your nature.
I don't even know what that means. :)

Hey, another one. Contention in being nothing is great, ain't it? No expectations of oneself means that failure is non effectual.
It seems you don't actually understand what I am getting at. I have quite great expectations of myself, and intend on fulfilling them. That does not change the fact that I am depressive, and derive pleasure from it.

I don't even know what that means. :)
What it means is that your happiness is not merely something you will -- it is something that derives from adopting the right frame of mind for you. This does not necessitate happiness though. Adopting the frame of mind is step one -- suffering disappointment is more than powerful enough to overwhelm any state of mind you may impress on yourself.

It seems you don't actually understand what I am getting at. I have quite great expectations of myself, and intend on fulfilling them. That does not change the fact that I am depressive, and derive pleasure from it.

i'll swear there's a glaring contradiction in that post. but i'm too tired to pick it out. i just know that post doesn't sit properly with my brain. i'm going to bed. 'night all *waves*

It seems you don't actually understand what I am getting at. I have quite great expectations of myself, and intend on fulfilling them. That does not change the fact that I am depressive, and derive pleasure from it.

Oh, so you're an emo. Nevermind... :p

Oh, so you're an emo. Nevermind... :p
A masochist of sorts more generally.

What it means is that your happiness is not merely something you will -- it is something that derives from adopting the right frame of mind for you. This does not necessitate happiness though. Adopting the frame of mind is step one -- suffering disappointment is more than powerful enough to overwhelm any state of mind you may impress on yourself.

I am disappointed on numerous occasions. That doesn’t stop me from being happy. I will be happy no matter what. Period.

I am disappointed on numerous occasions. That doesn’t stop me from being happy. I will be happy no matter what. Period.
Then you're merely wired that way -- I'm not. And much as I may will it, I cannot simply be happy in an orthodox sense.

Then you're merely wired that way -- I'm not. And much as I may will it, I cannot simply be happy in an orthodox sense.
Thing is though, I wasn't always like that. I had to make myself that way, and I'm glad I did.

Thing is though, I wasn't always like that. I had to make myself that way, and I'm glad I did.
Do inform me, how does one "make" themself a certain way? I am a perfectionist, and will never cease to be one.

Do inform me, how does one "make" themself a certain way? I am a perfectionist, and will never cease to be one.
I can't really explain it. I wish I could. This will to be happy just sort of developed in me and completely changed my personality.

I've given this a bit of thought re: 'nice guys finish last' and my theory is as follows:
Women are far superior to reading body language than men, and herein lies the trouble.
Why?

Because that ability naturally leads to them using body language a lot more than men to display their feelings.
But men are (generally) incapable of fully recognising what's going on and this is what leads to confusion, annoyance and problems on both sides.

By way of example:
Girl meets boy. Girl interested in boy. Girl uses subtle body language to flirt with boy. Boy sits there thinking, 'uhhh...wut? uhhh...did she just flirt with me? Uhhh...maybe. I don't know. Should I make an advance? What if I'm wrong? Then I'll blow the opportunity. But then, I might be right. Oh crap. I'll wait and see."
Girl thinks, "Jeez! I'm practically throwing myself at him and he's not responding! Damn! Why do I always go for guys who aren't interested?"

And then girl makes the decision that she just wants to be 'friends' and changes body language to show this. She also views boy as being too passive and wishy-washy (not particularly attractive attributes). Boy, though, thinks his behaviour (or lack of it) shows gentlemanly qualities - hence the problem.
And boy, still having trouble reading body language, fails to see the change and continues to fall under the impression that girl could still be interested in a more than platonic relationship.


Further, the reason 'The Asshole' (TA) gets the girl over 'The Nice Guy' (TNG)is that TA is either better than the average guy at reading female body language, or (more likely) just less caring about being wrong (goes on the scattergun approach of '50 face slaps for every 1 screw' are reasonable odds).
So TA is more open, vigorous and often in his advances.
Girl - if she's interested, and has been using subtle body language to shgow this - takes TA approaches as a sign of assertiveness (an attractive quality).
TNG sees TA's behaviour and views it as aggressive and arrogant (ie. not attractive behaviour). [Uninterested Girl also sees it as such, but that's beside the point.]
This is what furthers the 'why do assholes get the girls?' conundrum.


It's all a matter of perspective.

I suppose in the sense that you expect more of yourself?
If I can squeeze my way in here...

Precisely.

I mean, I know I'm not really ugly (or if I am, people have hidden it from me), I'm not stupid, and I'm not an arsehole.

If there was anything like fairness in the world, I should be in a happy relationship.

I'm not, and depending on my mood there are two things to say about that:

1) It's the world's or the girl's fault. Stupid slut tricked me. How was I supposed to know?

2) Deep inside I know that the only person who's actually done anything wrong is me. I came across like a moron. I embarrassed myself. It's my fault that I'm not out there again, trying to find the girl that obviously does exist somewhere out there. So fine, you don't like the crowds and the heat and the atmosphere in a pub on Saturday night - boohoo, suck it up. The beach bums can deal with it, can't they?

Instead I sit here, one more day spent discussing politics, or economics, or philosophy, with other people who also should be spending their time out there.
I mean, nothing against you guys, but am I the only one who sometimes feels just a little guilty of writing so many posts per day?

Ultimately I'm not doing myself justice, and I can't tell why. I know what I should be doing, and yet I don't do it.

Put that together with all the other shit that's clogging up my life, and it doesn't look like happiness is on the cards anytime soon. And for the time being, maybe a moron like me doesn't deserve it either.

Oh crap, I'm getting depressed again. Stupid topic. Who the hell posted this OP in the first place? ;)

*snip*

Yep. Exactly. (Except add male equivalents to the female-exclusive terms.)

And because I'm the only one who's at fault, I can't even get any pleasure from moping. Instead, I become alternatively self-mocking and absurdly proud of my own loser status.

'Nice guys' aren't.

If you want sex/love/both, then don't be a creepy, manipulative fuck. Be honest. If you don't have the spine for honesty, drink yourself stupid 'til you've got an ancohol-incided pair, suffer whatever rejection you have to, get used to the concept & gradually try doing it sober.

There are billions of people on the planet. There not a chance in hell you'll run out of hot babes/studs before you find someone who'll want your shallow, spineless ass.

I'm sick & fucking tired of 'nice' manipulative assholes. I hope you all die lonely & pathetic, but sadly I already know you'll all find sucker after gullible sucker to twist around with your infantile little mindgames. Oh fuck you all. There's nothing worse than 'nice' guys. Nothing. I'd rather be gangraped than fall for another one of you. Ego-destroying little twats all of you.

Here's two free hints for you: Trust (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trust) & Honesty (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honesty)

I'm an arsehole but at least I'm honest about it

'Nice guys' aren't.

If you want sex/love/both, then don't be a creepy, manipulative fuck. Be honest. If you don't have the spine for honesty, drink yourself stupid 'til you've got an ancohol-incided pair, suffer whatever rejection you have to, get used to the concept & gradually try doing it sober.

There are billions of people on the planet. There not a chance in hell you'll run out of hot babes/studs before you find someone who'll want your shallow, spineless ass.

I'm sick & fucking tired of 'nice' manipulative assholes. I hope you all die lonely & pathetic, but sadly I already know you'll all find sucker after gullible sucker to twist around with your infantile little mindgames. Oh fuck you all. There's nothing worse than 'nice' guys. Nothing. I'd rather be gangraped than fall for another one of you. Ego-destroying little twats all of you.

Here's two free hints for you: Trust (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trust) & Honesty (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honesty)

Whoa.

Seriously, who pissed in your cheerios this morning?

If you don't have the spine for honesty, drink yourself stupid 'til you've got an ancohol-incided pair, suffer whatever rejection you have to, get used to the concept & gradually try doing it sober.
I like that idea, to be honest. It's quite sad that these days no one drinks outside the pub or club anymore (I don't like pubs or clubs). I liked it better in highschool, when we all just drank in someone's garden.

There's nothing worse than 'nice' guys. Nothing. I'd rather be gangraped than fall for another one of you. Ego-destroying little twats all of you.
Interesting that you used the word "ego-destroying". Honest question:

Did you in fact need it for your ego and self-esteem that a guy liked you as a friend but was not romantically interested in you?

Interesting that you used the word "ego-destroying". Honest question:

Did you in fact need it for your ego and self-esteem that a guy liked you as a friend but was not romantically interested in you?Most of us need that to some extent, I think, but I was referring to what a relationship with a creepy little manipulative fuck like that will do to you.

If you ever want your faith in yourself & your fellow humans killed, devoured, shat out & set on fire just for laughs, find a 'nice' guy. I don't know if it's years of dishonesty & manipulation that makes them complete psychos. I don't want to know. What I do know, is that they'll destroy you, control you & ruin your life.

It's all about control for 'nice' guys.

Most of us need that to some extent, I think, but I was referring to what a relationship with a creepy little manipulative fuck like that will do to you.

If you ever want your faith in yourself & your fellow humans killed, devoured, shat out & set on fire just for laughs, find a 'nice' guy. I don't know if it's years of dishonesty & manipulation that makes them complete psychos. I don't want to know. What I do know, is that they'll destroy you, control you & ruin your life.

It's all about control for 'nice' guys.

Easy there boy!
Seriously, tone down a little. I've seen Iraq war posts more civil than this.

Most of us need that to some extent, I think...
How come? Aren't gay guys and other girls enough?

I mean, even if it is possible for two heterosexual people of different sexes to be 'just' friends for a long time (and I regard 'Harry & Sally' as a documentary in that respect)...is it worth the trouble?

...but I was referring to what a relationship with a creepy little manipulative fuck like that will do to you.
If you don't mind me asking: What happened?

Easy there boy!
Seriously, tone down a little.Why? I'm tired of seeing scheming little bastards hailed as the best thing since sliced bread. I'm tired of always having to feel sorry so they can feel good. I hate the bastards. I hate the mentality. Makes me want to kill kittens.I've seen Iraq war posts more civil than this.Congratulations, you just achieved Ninny status.
I've seen tonnes of angry/sad/pathetic/hillarious/extatic/[insert emotive of your liking] in just about any thread in this forum. Do you think that means I should conform to one type forever & ever?

EDIT: Didn't want to double-post, so..

How come? Aren't gay guys and other girls enough?I'm afraid I don't subscribe to the Ladder mythos, so yes. I think it's completely possible for people to be friends without any underlying sex/love bollox. Then again, that's prolly why I used to be a sucker. And no, I didn't mean anyone's world will come crashing down just because some friend or other suddenly reveals his/her real intentions.

If you don't mind me asking: What happened?You don't seriously believe I'll go post intense personal shit on a public forum, do you? Thought not.

The problem with 'nice' guys is that they are the emotional equivalent of parasites. They're only really happy when you're not, and if you're not unhappy enough to sate their adiction, they'll make you. And once they start that, they get good at it & you get trapped. They'll sap the life right out of you, turning you into a useless gibbering heap of self-doubt & loathing.

To use an analogy: 'nice' guys are like butterfly collectors & 6 year olds all in one. They'd trap you, daze you, stick you on a pedestal & tear your wings off.

Most of us need that to some extent, I think, but I was referring to what a relationship with a creepy little manipulative fuck like that will do to you.

Aye, being an actual nice guy(As in I never really have my personal gains in mind while being actually nice), I can smell those no good rats from a mile away. I hate em to, they give the actual nice guys out there a terrible name.


If you ever want your faith in yourself & your fellow humans killed, devoured, shat out & set on fire just for laughs, find a 'nice' guy. I don't know if it's years of dishonesty & manipulation that makes them complete psychos. I don't want to know. What I do know, is that they'll destroy you, control you & ruin your life.

It's all about control for 'nice' guys.

Eh, for some, yes? Most? Perhaps. But there are the few who don't wish for control and such. And to tell ya the truth, I lost faith in humanity long ago.

Way to tell the difference between actual nice guy and the "nice" guy:

Nice Guy-Tells the truth, regardless of whether or not you want to hear it. Doesn't move in when the opportunity arises. Willing to help out/give advice when asked, or when needed.

"Nice" Guy-Tells you exactly what you want to hear, when you want to hear it. Is the first guy there to hear about your problems, whether or not you asked for his advice. Compared to a Buzzard.

Nice Guy-Tells the truth, regardless of whether or not you want to hear it. Doesn't move in when the opportunity arises. Willing to help out/give advice when asked, or when needed.
You see, there's one big problem with this though.

What if this nice guy actually likes the girl in a romantic way? Then to be nice according to your definition, he would basically have to be unhappy, listen to the girl's problem with her boyfriends etc and just generally be quite miserable.

Of course, he'd also be pretending not to be miserable because that would make the girl unhappy, which is ultimately the last thing he wants to do.

It's that sort of relationship that is described on the "intellectural whores" website: the guy can't walk away and is pretty much trapped, the girl either knowingly or unknowingly takes advantage of that, having a "friend" to talk to.

So what is the solution? Being honest will just lead to pain for everyone, the girl firstly through losing a friend and secondly through the self-esteem aspect mentioned by Similization, the guy through being rejected.

Fact is that these situations are ugly. Believe me, I know. There is no good way out of it - except for that tiny chance that the two could actually get together as a couple.
And now Similization is saying that that's crap too, so I really want to hear about that.

You see, there's one big problem with this though.

What if this nice guy actually likes the girl in a romantic way? Then to be nice according to your definition, he would basically have to be unhappy, listen to the girl's problem with her boyfriends etc and just generally be quite miserable.


It's a miserable lifestyle, I'll be the first to admit. However, I find a certain joy in being actually nice to people, and can put up with the misery. Doesn't hurt that I'm dystymic, or whatever it is the doctor said I have. Basically I lack emotion is what it is.


Of course, he'd also be pretending not to be miserable because that would make the girl unhappy, which is ultimately the last thing he wants to do.

Meh, it's part of trying to please others before oneself. I gain much more satisfaction when others are happy than when I am.


It's that sort of relationship that is described on the "intellectural whores" website: the guy can't walk away and is pretty much trapped, the girl either knowingly or unknowingly takes advanta]ge of that, having a "friend" to talk to.

Yep, being the nice guys means being taken advantage of. Most can't really deal with that, and it's understandable. I really have had an extraordinary series of events in my life that allow me to.


So what is the solution? Being honest will just lead to pain for everyone, the girl firstly through losing a friend and secondly through the self-esteem aspect mentioned by Similization, the guy through being rejected.

If the person is a true friend, they will realize the sometimes painful truth for what it really is. Or, painful advice for what it is. From my own personal observation, as well, very few friendships are honest in any way, with constant talking behind the back and backstabbing. I'd really rather not have that. Which is why I'm nice, albeit sometimes brutally honest, person.

And I know first hand on the self-esteem issue. It has happened many times in the past to me personally through rejection. However, I would rather weather that blow a thousand times than ever become manipulative and subversive as to my intentions.


Fact is that these situations are ugly. Believe me, I know. There is no good way out of it - except for that tiny chance that the two could actually get together as a couple.
And now Similization is saying that that's crap too, so I really want to hear about that.

They can get ugly. I've lost alot of people whom I've considered friends because they didn't want my opinion, they just wanted me to so something cheerful and what they wanted to hear.

Aye, being an actual nice guy(As in I never really have my personal gains in mind while being actually nice), I can smell those no good rats from a mile away. I hate em to, they give the actual nice guys out there a terrible name.I'm lucky enough to have realised again that people like you actually do exist. Unfortunately 'nice' guys poses as people like you, and telling the difference isn't always easy.

What if this nice guy actually likes the girl in a romantic way? Then to be nice according to your definition, he would basically have to be unhappy, listen to the girl's problem with her boyfriends etc and just generally be quite miserable.No. He'll either have to be honest with him/her, or get out of the cycle of manipulation.

It's not friendship in any sense. It's shit & leads nowhere. It's not good for you, because you're lying your ass off to her & constantly trying to manipulate her into a situation where you can take advantage over her, and the 'advantage' isn't something silly or insignificant like her house or bank account. It's her heart & soul you're trying to get control over. If you ever manage to do that, there's just no way in hell you'll quit, even if you think you have. You just keep manipulating the poor sob & eventually, she'll virtually be your slave.

Fortunately most 'nice' guys seem to tire of us idiotic suckers at that point, but unfortunately there's always another 'nice' guy ready to take over.

The problem is your victim ends up building her entire self-understanding & self-image around your mood, and well.. With a manipulative, insecure man, that's just no good at all. It's psychological terror.

Woman are meat, men cats.

No. He'll either have to be honest with him/her, or get out of the cycle of manipulation.
See, since you won't actually allude to what happened, I can only say that you obviously met someone who isn't a nice guy in the normal meaning of the word - ie an insecure guy who is too nervous and afraid to make his intentions clear and instead hopes that you will make the first romantic move.

You seem to just have found a beach bum who posed as a nice guy. Not the same thing.

It's not friendship in any sense. It's shit & leads nowhere. It's not good for you, because you're lying your ass off to her & constantly trying to manipulate her into a situation where you can take advantage over her, and the 'advantage' isn't something silly or insignificant like her house or bank account. It's her heart & soul you're trying to get control over.
You really think it's that conscious a plan?

To come back to the last time the whole "nice guy" thing happened to me:

I met this girl at work. We worked together, I got to know her, I started to like her. She also looked quite nice, and I was afraid I'd embarass myself if I just asked "Hey, do you have a boyfriend? Wanna go on a date or something?"

So I kept quiet for the time being until I felt that she liked me too. Unfortunately, by that time I was so far invested emotionally that I mistook her being a friend for her actually liking me. So I asked her whether she had a boyfriend. She told me that she didn't, so I asked her out for a movie. She didn't respond to the phone message, and presented me with her new boyfriend a week later.

As you can imagine, I was just a little bit unhappy. In fact, I was quite unhappy.

As far as I'm concerned, that is a "nice guy" story. It didn't involve me consciously trying to manipulate that girl, nor did I want to gain any sort of control over her.

I don't know what happened to you, so I can't tell. But what you're describing doesn't sound like something a "nice guy" would want to do.

You just keep manipulating the poor sob & eventually, she'll virtually be your slave.
You know, on my angry days I say pretty much the same thing about the girl.

The problem is your victim ends up building her entire self-understanding & self-image around your mood, and well.. With a manipulative, insecure man, that's just no good at all. It's psychological terror.
It seems like you just got very invested in a relationship and got your heart broken. It's got nothing to do with the "nice guy" or not - the same could have happened with any "normal" sort of guy.

If a guy whines that girls don't want to sleep with him because he's too nice then the chances are he 'aint that nice after all.

To me the idea of befriending a woman with the intent of wanting to have sex with them is very dishonest.

Which shows a woman more respect:

1. Approach directly making your motivation and intent clear to her and asking her out.
2. Begin a friendship pretending you want to be friends in the hope to sneek into her life, get her to tell you secrets about herself and confide in you, in the hope that you will be able to use this position to get into her pants.

The whole essence of the 'Nice Guy (TM)' approach is one of deception and manipulation. Which I don't think is very nice.

Most of the men/guys who ARE nice and DO respect women who do have *honest* friendships with women DO NOT whine about nice guys finishing last. They approach women they are interested in romantically in an honest way and they approach women they want to be friends with in an honest way and they DO get the girl. These sort of men tend not to label themselves 'Nice Guys' and they do no resort to misoginist (spelling?) accusations of who women are not attracted to them.

For an extensive collection of female (and some male) perspectives on 'Nice Guys' Try these folks : Heartless Bitches (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml).

Something Positive (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp02142004.shtml)
And Again (http://www.big-big-truck.com/comics/sensitiveguy/sensitiveguy2.gif)

And Again (http://www.big-big-truck.com/comics/sensitiveguy/sensitiveguy2.gif)
LOL!

ie an insecure guy who is too nervous and afraid to make his intentions clear and instead hopes that you will make the first romantic move.That's exactly what I met.So I kept quiet for the time being until I felt that she liked me too. Unfortunately, by that time I was so far invested emotionally that I mistook her being a friend for her actually liking me.Trick is not to wait that long.As you can imagine, I was just a little bit unhappy. In fact, I was quite unhappySome free advice:
Not everyone will be swept off their feet by your mere presence.
Not everyone knows how to react when someone they thought were a friend decides to drop a bomb on them.

It's like virtually everything else in life; win some, loose some.As far as I'm concerned, that is a "nice guy" story. It didn't involve me consciously trying to manipulate that girl, nor did I want to gain any sort of control over her.Ah, but real 'nice' guys don't just blunder, they bide their time, forever haunting the object of their desire 'till they either get him/her or the boot. Yours is just a typical "Oh fuck I suck at charming the pants off people & rejection is a bitch". Everyone has some of those, even those mythic beach bum creatures.You know, on my angry days I say pretty much the same thing about the girl.And on your good days, maybe, just maybe, you'll admit that she was clueless & just as piss poor at dealing with the situation as you. But unlike a 'nice' guy, you didn't go right back to being her bestest friend evah in a pathetic attempt to get her anyway.It seems like you just got very invested in a relationship and got your heart broken. It's got nothing to do with the "nice guy" or not - the same could have happened with any "normal" sort of guy.Nope. Not even close. There's a major difference between someone slowly worming his way into your life, actively trying to focus your whole life on misery to make himself needed, and just a bad breakup.
One changes everything you are. The other just breaks your heart for X months.

i like nice guys, but how could i not? i'm pretty dam fantastic.

i like nice guys, but how could i not? i'm pretty dam fantastic.

That's just cos you're Irish. Irish people are born fantastic.

And nice guys are nice, as the name implies. If they weren't nice they wouldn't be nice guys. ;)

Yup, it's been another three months, time for another "nice guys finish last" thread. :rolleyes:

Everyone has some of those, even those mythic beach bum creatures.
And sometimes I still think that it would be better if I tried pretending to be one of them, going to the clubs to "pick up chicks", using pick-up lines, buying drinks for girls and dancing...all the crap that I'm not, but that just looks like it's the only way.

Can you see where I'm coming from though? Most "nice guys" don't try to hurt anyone, they're just scared of getting hurt themselves.
They don't sit there trying to "worm" themselves into your life, they just want to spend time with you, and sadly that's the only way they know. I can honestly say that I've never actually become a girl's real best friend to the extent you seem to describe though.

Yup, it's been another three months, time for another "nice guys finish last" thread. :rolleyes:
This is an internet forum, my friend. :D

This is an internet forum, my friend. :D

Well, I can understand repetition of topics every now and again, but through observation of this particular one, it doesn't seem to come in spats, but instead seems to peak every couple of months. Other threads on the topic will likely soon follow; drifting away over the next couple of months before they hit a bizzare peak in the leadup to Valentines day.

It's rather interesting, actually, or at least it would be if only I didn't find these threads irritating in the first place.

That's just cos you're Irish. Irish people are born fantastic.

And nice guys are nice, as the name implies. If they weren't nice they wouldn't be nice guys. ;)

sometimes its demanding being from such a lovely race of people. thats why ireland is shaped like a teddy bear!

It's rather interesting, actually, or at least it would be if only I didn't find these threads irritating in the first place.
Irritating they may be - but I suppose every one would be a chance for you to engage in rational (or as much as possible with a topic like this, I guess) debate and convince another few "nice guys" that just maybe the problem sits with them, not the girls and their outlaw biker beach bum boyfriends.

Though I'd still prefer it if I could just meet a nice girl and have a relationship without being pushed into all these predefined roles of what a romantic relationship is and how it's supposed to start.

sometimes its demanding being from such a lovely race of people. thats why ireland is shaped like a teddy bear!

Yup. Everyone loves teddy bears. Which is part of the reason everyone loves Ireland.

Oh, I am so glad you asked...


A young male who will give up countless hours of his time listening to the problems of his very attractive female friends because they need someone to talk to about their apathetic, Baywatch jock of a boyfriend because no one else will listen or genuinely care.

In my world, one of the bare minimums that must be met to qualify as "nice" is to actually give a shit about your fellow human beings in some way, shape, or form. A bare minimum required of "friends" is to sincerely give a shit. If the above mentioned young male is pretending to give a shit in order to get an attractive female to have sex with him, he is neither nice nor her friend.


Although always surrounded by beautiful girls the nice guy can’t get a girlfriend or even facilitate the alleviation of certain “drives” because his “ordinary” physical appearance will forever be compared to the Baywatch beach bum’s.

Imagine that...girls care about guys' appearance! Explain for me, please, what is "nice" about an average-looking guy feeling that he is entitled to a "beautiful" girl for his girlfriend? If he's so "nice," why isn't he looking at all the "nice" girls who are average looking (like he is)?


The nice guy would never capitalize on a vulnerable girl, objectify or cheat on a girl,

And for this he thinks he deserves a cookie? Or a pussy, perhaps?


he will go out of his way and bend over backwards to help his “friends” and will never ask for anything in return but no matter how intelligent, understanding, humorous, compassionate, trusting or loyal the nice guy is the female cohort will always pass him up and endure any length of abuse, objectification, apathy and cold-heartedness from a man if he has physical attractiveness, fashion, big muscles and chiseled facial features.

Wow, what a catch this Nice Guy is! He puts "friends" in scare quotes to emphasize that these ATTRACTIVE girls are just targets to him, and he's putting up with their irrational, silly, idiotic female personalities because he's just SO DAMN NICE.

But, tragically, women are too stupid to realize that they'd be better off dating an average-looking sneak who secretly thinks they're morons.


The nice guy will eventually realize that his dependability and empathy will never be appreciated and all his friendships with females are all one-sided.

Yes, they are one-sided. The females think he's their friend, while he knows that he's just pretending to give a shit in the hopes that he can trick them into having sex. He doesn't actually want to be their friend at all, he wants a girlfriend, but he doesn't respect these young women enough to be honest and forthright. Instead, he deceives them (and himself) and then calls the lies "nice."


This coupled with years of watching girls go for tanned, muscular jerk-offs with nice cars while he desperately hopes someone will realize that how viable he actually is will spawn and incubate the nice guy’s insecurities and he will eventually abandon his views, dumb-down his speech, take-up weight-lifting and switch majors from cancer research with a minor in theoretical physics to playground management so he can devote his time to emulating Baywatch characters and football players so that he will one day be viewed as more than a “nice guy.”

Translation: it's all the fault of the bitches when I treat them like ho's.

It's not "nice" to assume you're entitled to have hot girls sleep with you. It's not "nice" to decide that if you can't trick them into the sack, then you'll just be really mean to them and quit school and take your ball and go home. Those things are just childish and silly.


The nice guy will eventually work up the courage to ask out his attractive female friend but will invariably be turned down because she’s so self-centered that she’d never actually had a smidgeon of compassion for the nice guy’s feelings or even realized that he’s interested in girls.

Or, you know, she doesn't want to date him. HOW DARE SHE?! She's an attractive girl (presumably with other qualities, but why would Nice Guy care about any of them?), and he's a Nice Guy! She MUST want to date him! She's a bitch if she doesn't!


After rejecting the nice guy, the girl will downplay the supposed friendship to the point where they never speak again, which in turn will make the nice guy depressed (ironically, he won’t have anyone to talk to) because he’s devoted so much time and energy and has become so warped from being exposed to these kinds of people that he will either live the rest of his life alone in a tiny apartment, jerking off to old Saved by the Bell episodes or get drunk one night and impregnate a 300-pound, cross-eyed derelict who works at Wendy’s and spend the rest of his life being treated like shit.

Translation: it's all the fault of the bitches when I'm a self-centered pile of ooze who can't cope with the fact that not all pussies belong to me.


The whole ‘nice guy’ phenomenon really supports the idea that people primarily care about physical appearances and that shrewdness, selfishness and narcissism will always triumph over compassion, rapport and “inner beauty.”

Yes, it really does. Because "nice guys" uniformly complain about how they can't get HOT GIRLZ. They are always so very nice to HOT GIRLZ. They complain about their lack of ability to get HOT GIRLZ, and how all the jerks get HOT GIRLZ. For some reason, they decide that the reason they don't get HOT GIRLZ is because they're just too nice, and conclude that they should become huge assholes to get HOT GIRLZ.

Nevermind actually caring about human beings who happen to be female. Never mind having a standard for one's partner beyond "is really really hawt!!!!" Never mind basic honesty and human decency. Just do anything and everything that you can think of to get your cock stuck in a HOT GIRL.

So nice. So very, very nice.

Irritating they may be - but I suppose every one would be a chance for you to engage in rational (or as much as possible with a topic like this, I guess) debate and convince another few "nice guys" that just maybe the problem sits with them, not the girls and their outlaw biker beach bum boyfriends.

Yeah, I know. I usually do. I'm just more in the mood to bitch about the thread offending me by its very presence than attempt to make any sort of meaningful contribution. :p

Although I *was* going to link an old post of mine on the topic, but jolt's search function isn't working for me at the moment.

EDIT - this'll do, although I must have been in a really shit mood when I made that one :/
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11220300&postcount=214

Though I'd still prefer it if I could just meet a nice girl and have a relationship without being pushed into all these predefined roles of what a romantic relationship is and how it's supposed to start.

Yeah, well, i've given up on that whole idea.

Relationships as a whole, too. Why bother?

And sometimes I still think that it would be better if I tried pretending to be one of them, going to the clubs to "pick up chicks", using pick-up lines, buying drinks for girls and dancing...all the crap that I'm not, but that just looks like it's the only way.Why not? But if you really want my opinion, I'd say check out some online dating thing. You're an eloquent guy.Can you see where I'm coming from though? Most "nice guys" don't try to hurt anyone, they're just scared of getting hurt themselves. You're gonna get hurt. It will happen. Multiple times. It's as safe a prediction as saying you'll one day cease to live. Learn to cope & move on with your life. Unless you decide to become a 'nice' manipulative asshole, fear of getting rejected won't help you avoid it.They don't sit there trying to "worm" themselves into your life, they just want to spend time with you, and sadly that's the only way they know.It's like an apology for a rapist. "He didn't try to brutally violate you, he just wanted to screw you & it was the only way he knew how".
No way in hell I'm buying that. If it's not working, for whatever reason, you pick yourself up & move on to something else.I can honestly say that I've never actually become a girl's real best friend to the extent you seem to describe though.Good. Don't ever try either. And mate.. You don't need to have a crush on someone to be friends. In fact, you can't if you do. It's not friendship, it's mental SM. Get over it & find someone else. I know it's a bad cliché, but there are so incredibly many people in the world that if you're not carefull, you're bound to be infatuated with someone on a regular basis... But of course, you need a relationship before that becomes a problem :p

Oh, I am so glad you asked...

In my world, one of the bare minimums that must be met to qualify as "nice" is to actually give a shit about your fellow human beings in some way, shape, or form. A bare minimum required of "friends" is to sincerely give a shit. If the above mentioned young male is pretending to give a shit in order to get an attractive female to have sex with him, he is neither nice nor her friend.

Imagine that...girls care about guys' appearance! Explain for me, please, what is "nice" about an average-looking guy feeling that he is entitled to a "beautiful" girl for his girlfriend? If he's so "nice," why isn't he looking at all the "nice" girls who are average looking (like he is)?

And for this he thinks he deserves a cookie? Or a pussy, perhaps?

Wow, what a catch this Nice Guy is! He puts "friends" in scare quotes to emphasize that these ATTRACTIVE girls are just targets to him, and he's putting up with their irrational, silly, idiotic female personalities because he's just SO DAMN NICE.

But, tragically, women are too stupid to realize that they'd be better off dating an average-looking sneak who secretly thinks they're morons.

Yes, they are one-sided. The females think he's their friend, while he knows that he's just pretending to give a shit in the hopes that he can trick them into having sex. He doesn't actually want to be their friend at all, he wants a girlfriend, but he doesn't respect these young women enough to be honest and forthright. Instead, he deceives them (and himself) and then calls the lies "nice."

Translation: it's all the fault of the bitches when I treat them like ho's.

It's not "nice" to assume you're entitled to have hot girls sleep with you. It's not "nice" to decide that if you can't trick them into the sack, then you'll just be really mean to them and quit school and take your ball and go home. Those things are just childish and silly.

Or, you know, she doesn't want to date him. HOW DARE SHE?! She's an attractive girl (presumably with other qualities, but why would Nice Guy care about any of them?), and he's a Nice Guy! She MUST want to date him! She's a bitch if she doesn't!

Translation: it's all the fault of the bitches when I'm a self-centered pile of ooze who can't cope with the fact that not all pussies belong to me.

Yes, it really does. Because "nice guys" uniformly complain about how they can't get HOT GIRLZ. They are always so very nice to HOT GIRLZ. They complain about their lack of ability to get HOT GIRLZ, and how all the jerks get HOT GIRLZ. For some reason, they decide that the reason they don't get HOT GIRLZ is because they're just too nice, and conclude that they should become huge assholes to get HOT GIRLZ.

Nevermind actually caring about human beings who happen to be female. Never mind having a standard for one's partner beyond "is really really hawt!!!!" Never mind basic honesty and human decency. Just do anything and everything that you can think of to get your cock stuck in a HOT GIRL.

So nice. So very, very nice.

Thank you for doing that. Now I don't have to go on my own rant since you summed up my points so nicely. :)

Oh, I am so glad you asked...

<Mega-snip>

So nice. So very, very nice.Bottle I wanna have your babies :p

I like nice guys. I happen to think that my fiancé is very nice guy. The biggest problem with nice guys that don't "get the girl" is they don't have self-confidence so they don't see when the girl has interested. I had a big crush on one of my male friends and dropped hints all the time, pretty everything other than saying, "Oi, you, let's have sex." I would dress nicer when I knew that I would run into him. I would text him and ask him to do things with just me, go to pub, go to dinner, etc. When he would suggest that he invite some others, I would say, "I was hoping that just the two of us that can spend time together." If we went out as a group, I would always try to sit next to him. I would touch his arm a lot when I was talking to him. He confessed about 2 weeks before I had to move away that he was attracted to me. It's not the only time that is happened to me, though he was the most oblivious. So my suggestion to nice guys that have many female friends that want to date some of them, pay a bit better attention, you are probably missing something.

Bottle I wanna have your babies :p
Sorry, but I'm far too busy letting my beach-bum boyfriend walk all over me right now. And later I'm booked for a nice friendly dinner with a Nice Guy Friend who will stare at my chest while pretending to listen to what I'm saying. Honestly, I'm just swamped.

;)

Sorry, but I'm far too busy letting my beach-bum boyfriend walk all over me right now. And later I'm booked for a nice friendly dinner with a Nice Guy Friend who will stare at my chest while pretending to listen to what I'm saying. Honestly, I'm just swamped.

;)It's ok. I'll just steal some random ones for us while you're out & guilt-trip the living shit outta you, 'cos I'm so damn nice ;)

[insert sound of 'nice' guy kitten stand-in dying violently]

I like nice guys. I happen to think that my fiancé is very nice guy. The biggest problem with nice guys that don't "get the girl" is they don't have self-confidence so they don't see when the girl has interested. I had a big crush on one of my male friends and dropped hints all the time, pretty everything other than saying, "Oi, you, let's have sex." I would dress nicer when I knew that I would run into him. I would text him and ask him to do things with just me, go to pub, go to dinner, etc. When he would suggest that he invite some others, I would say, "I was hoping that just the two of us that can spend time together." If we went out as a group, I would always try to sit next to him. I would touch his arm a lot when I was talking to him. He confessed about 2 weeks before I had to move away that he was attracted to me. It's not the only time that is happened to me, though he was the most oblivious. So my suggestion to nice guys that have many female friends that want to date some of them, pay a bit better attention, you are probably missing something.

That's a very good point. I know that when I was younger, I often missed that some of my female friends were pretty obviously interested in me. There's one in particular that I still regret not returning that interest in. She was intelligent, competent, fun (most men would say feisty, the wusses ;)), caring, and beautiful. I have the feeling that because of my being oblivious, I missed out on quite an interesting relationship with her.

-snip-
Yay! Now the whole crew is back! :D

Why not? But if you really want my opinion, I'd say check out some online dating thing. You're an eloquent guy.
Does that stuff actually work?

It's ok. I'll just steal some random ones for us while you're out & guilt-trip the living shit outta you, 'cos I'm so damn nice ;)

Now THAT is hawt.

I should start a thread whining about how a Nice Girl like me just can't seem to find a totally HAWT GUY to steal babies and kill kittens for me.

Does that stuff actually work?I have to confess my utter lack of personal experience, but a girl I know found a genuinely nice bloke thru online dating.

And NL, if a shy Muslim university student can bag a rabidly anti-religious working class Oi! punker like me, then an eloquent guy like you will be drowning in women in no time. Just ease up on the "I know you don't want me & I shouldn't be here, so I'll just go away now & look real sad" attitude. I'm sure you'll agree Donkey from Winnie the Poo wasn't obvious dating material either.Now THAT is hawt.

I should start a thread whining about how a Nice Girl like me just can't seem to find a totally HAWT GUY to steal babies and kill kittens for me.Hahaha, it'd get insta-killed by the ferocious mods, I'm sure, but go for it! I'll bring the innocent kittens.

By the way...awesome ad. Very topical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E4IxpnOirY

Does that stuff actually work?

well my Dad found his wife to be through one so they must work. You just have to put up with constant searchinguntil you find the right one.

You just have to put up with constant searchinguntil you find the right one.

Which is not really any different from looking for a good mate the old-fashioned way.

Which is not really any different from looking for a good mate the old-fashioned way.
A lot of people forget that part. :)

Honestly, I think that's one of the biggest problems with telling guys that they are "supposed" to get a hot girl whenever they want one: the guys think that the default is having a hot girlfriend, and so if they don't have a hot girlfriend they assume that there's something wrong with either them or the girls.

The reality is that plenty of attractive, intelligent, fun people are single. Some are single by choice. Some would like to be dating, but a variety of factors keep them single.

Sometimes a person can be hot, smart, and fun...and also just not attracted to you. Or just not interested in dating right now.

You might be hot, smart, and fun, but that doesn't mean that every other hot, smart, fun person will want to date you. There's bigger issues of compatibility and attraction that have to be considered.

...and so if they don't have a hot girlfriend they assume that there's something wrong with either them or the girls.
See, but I know that on some level there is something (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/notes/s1768606.htm) wrong with me.

A lot of people forget that part. :)

Honestly, I think that's one of the biggest problems with telling guys that they are "supposed" to get a hot girl whenever they want one: the guys think that the default is having a hot girlfriend, and so if they don't have a hot girlfriend they assume that there's something wrong with either them or the girls.

The reality is that plenty of attractive, intelligent, fun people are single. Some are single by choice. Some would like to be dating, but a variety of factors keep them single.

Sometimes a person can be hot, smart, and fun...and also just not attracted to you. Or just not interested in dating right now.

You might be hot, smart, and fun, but that doesn't mean that every other hot, smart, fun person will want to date you. There's bigger issues of compatibility and attraction that have to be considered.

Indeed. I have several very attractive female friends that are single despite their qualities. And I don't really want to date them, despite finding them attractive, because there's a lot more to it than just being "hot". They don't want to date me either, and I'm fine with that.

Funny how things work out so much better when you get over your self-pity and work on improving yourself rather than whining about how people don't appreciate you for how great you are, ain't it? :D

I expect to be treated badly by guys. :(

So when a nice guy comes along it takes a while for me to trust, I guess. But truly nice guys pwn. :)

See, but I know that on some level there is something (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/notes/s1768606.htm) wrong with me.

To continue from the other thread, you need to do the observation you mentioned, then analyze trends in social behavior and the responses to it, preferably in light of cultural and psychological dynamics. After you have a decent grasp of how social situations work, start practicing by immersing yourself in them. It will be awkward to some degree for a while, but you will improve.

If it's worth it to you, you'll accomplish it. From reading your posts here, it's obvious that you're an intelligent and thoughtful guy.

And one crucial bit. Cowboy up and be up front and honest with a woman if you're interested. If she rejects an honest advance, she's not worth your time anyway, and you've eliminated a potentially bad relationship.

NSG offers the unique ability to stop, re-read what you're writing, repair and so on.

And RL allows you to apologize for a slip-up and try again or move on.

And I'm not even particularly shy (hell, I'm telling my problems to random strangers). I approach people, ask them stuff, I crack jokes (though people tend to not get them...) and so on. But try to walk up to a girl and say "Hey, I think you're attractive, are you up for a date or something?"...I don't think I could do that.

Heh. Most people don't get my jokes either. But I'm telling them for my own amusement as much as theirs, so it ain't a big deal if they don't get it.

And I don't think walking up to a girl and asking her on a date is even a good approach. Establishing at least a minimal relationship first is generally a good idea.

...It will be awkward to some degree for a while, but you will improve.
And even written in extra-complicated language so I'll understand it. ;)

Seriously though, I'm gonna be done with my exams in a few weeks time, leaving me with basically three months of holidays. I'm not gonna spend them on NSG again like last year, I don't think I wanna put myself through that guilt again.

Which just leaves me with one thing: Do what my mates here do...which is going to bars and clubs. I suppose there's no better place to learn, but I still don't like the crowds and the heat.

And one crucial bit. Cowboy up and be up front and honest with a woman if you're interested. If she rejects an honest advance, she's not worth your time anyway, and you've eliminated a potentially bad relationship.
Well yeah, I pledged to do that after that last disaster. The opportunity hasn't come up yet.
Though the problem still is that an advance may well be honest, but if you come across like a retard all the honesty in the world ain't gonna help.

And RL allows you to apologize for a slip-up and try again or move on.
Once, yeah. Twice...maybe. Three times and you start looking like a mentally disabled person.

Establishing at least a minimal relationship first is generally a good idea.
When is the switch-over though? Because you don't want them to start thinking of you as a friend - I still credit the ladder theory with enough truth to know that a girl will be reluctant to give up a friendship.

And even written in extra-complicated language so I'll understand it. ;)

Haha! That really wasn't extra-complicated, but certainly better-suited to you than "Go up to them bitches and get they digits." :p

Seriously though, I'm gonna be done with my exams in a few weeks time, leaving me with basically three months of holidays. I'm not gonna spend them on NSG again like last year, I don't think I wanna put myself through that guilt again.

Which just leaves me with one thing: Do what my mates here do...which is going to bars and clubs. I suppose there's no better place to learn, but I still don't like the crowds and the heat.

A couple of practical points. For the heat, a cool drink offers a good solution. For the crowds, slowly acclimate to them. Stay mostly to the side at first, doing something innocuous. Then gradually work your way up to being closer to people.

Well yeah, I pledged to do that after that last disaster. The opportunity hasn't come up yet. Though the problem still is that an advance may well be honest, but if you come across like a retard all the honesty in the world ain't gonna help.

It's called failure. It happens to all of us. Just learn from it and try again.

Once, yeah. Twice...maybe. Three times and you start looking like a mentally disabled person.

So what if you do? You'll fail repeatedly before you get it. That's how people like you and I are when it comes to socializing.

When is the switch-over though? Because you don't want them to start thinking of you as a friend - I still credit the ladder theory with enough truth to know that a girl will be reluctant to give up a friendship.

Sometimes they are. But I ended up dating a friend, and she obviously had no problem with the idea of risking a friendship in the process. And honestly, if you have a solid friendship with someone, a failed dating relationship probably won't kill it anyway. Injure for a time, probably, but folks do get over these things.

Seriously though, I'm gonna be done with my exams in a few weeks time, leaving me with basically three months of holidays. I'm not gonna spend them on NSG again like last year, I don't think I wanna put myself through that guilt again.Guilt?

Which just leaves me with one thing: Do what my mates here do...which is going to bars and clubs. I suppose there's no better place to learn, but I still don't like the crowds and the heat.There's more ways than that, but clubbing is prolly safest if you can't face mistakes.

Take up a sport. Get active in some sort of organisation. Get a job. All of it involves lots of new people & potential mates.

Now if you want my advice - which you prolly shouldn't pay to much attention to, since I'm an ass - think of it as a cooking class. You'll spils shit, burn shit & prolly get burned yourself, but at some point, you'll stop worrying about what you're doing to the food & start concentrating on what the food is telling you to do. I'm pretty sure you've got plenty of empathy going for you, given your past political stance, so all you have to do is get in touch with it. Though the problem still is that an advance may well be honest, but if you come across like a retard all the honesty in the world ain't gonna help.Depends entirely on the situation & person.

If you're ever gonna trust a complete stranger on anything, trust me on this: honesty is the most basic buildingblock of a successful relationship.

But hey.. Maybe you should start by getting a fuck-friend. All the sex, almost all the attention & none of all the confusing touchy-feely shit.

The definition from UrbanDictionary...


And I mean real ones, not the emo ones who are actually the exact opposite and are only acting like nice guys for sex.
Propaganda by the jocks, that's what it is.

And I don't think walking up to a girl and asking her on a date is even a good approach. Establishing at least a minimal relationship first is generally a good idea.

I dont know, it can be quite effective - provided you are in a social situation where is is reasonable to assume the girl is there actively looking for someone - clubs for example. And depending on how you do it.

I dont know, it can be quite effective - provided you are in a social situation where is is reasonable to assume the girl is there actively looking for someone - clubs for example. And depending on how you do it.

Sure, if you already have sufficient social skills to carry it after that. NL has said that he does not, so that probably wouldn't be a good approach for him.

And I mean real ones, not the emo ones who are actually the exact opposite and are only acting like nice guys for sex.
I used to have one of those.....for like 6 years, and then when I get married he got mad at me "but I was in love with you" stupid idiot, he had 6 freaking years to say something. It's not my fault he didn't.

I think they are cowards, if you like someone do something about it, if you don't do anything, then it's really your fault.

I have no patience for a man who can't take care of himself, and really even less patience for a whiner. ;)

Sure, if you already have sufficient social skills to carry it after that. NL has said that he does not, so that probably wouldn't be a good approach for him.

Depends again - if their social skills are really bad asking really early could be a good thing as the longer you wait the more time there is for your bad social skills to show through and put the other person off.

Depends again - if their social skills are really bad asking really early could be a good thing as the longer you wait the more time there is for your bad social skills to show through and put the other person off.

very true. You can use your dorky-ness early on, but later? not so much.

Depends again - if their social skills are really bad asking really early could be a good thing as the longer you wait the more time there is for your bad social skills to show through and put the other person off.

1. I don't see this as viable in light of NL's personality.
2. I don't think it really matters whether you annoy them right away or a little after that.

very true. You can use your dorky-ness early on, but later? not so much.

Is it just me, or does that totally not make sense given what you're relying too? Maybe I'm just tired. :(

I used to have one of those.....for like 6 years, and then when I get married he got mad at me "but I was in love with you" stupid idiot, he had 6 freaking years to say something. It's not my fault he didn't.

I think they are cowards, if you like someone do something about it, if you don't do anything, then it's really your fault.

I have no patience for a man who can't take care of himself, and really even less patience for a whiner. ;)

Six Years?

If you don't mind me speaking my mind, that guy was a doofus.

I expect to be treated badly by guys. :(

So when a nice guy comes along it takes a while for me to trust, I guess. But truly nice guys pwn. :)

Spend more time on NS, we're always nice :fluffle:

2. I don't think it really matters whether you annoy them right away or a little after that.

Is it just me, or does that totally not make sense given what you're relying too? Maybe I'm just tired. :(

People are much less fussy about someone after they are going out with them than they are when deciding to go out with them.

The hard part is getting in, once you're there you often have to stuff up to get booted out.

I used to have one of those.....for like 6 years, and then when I get married he got mad at me "but I was in love with you" stupid idiot, he had 6 freaking years to say something. It's not my fault he didn't.

I think they are cowards, if you like someone do something about it, if you don't do anything, then it's really your fault.

I have no patience for a man who can't take care of himself, and really even less patience for a whiner. ;)

Didn't he like... see it coming you were gonna married? :confused:

Six Years?

If you don't mind me speaking my mind, that guy was a doofus.
Especially since Smunkee says he freaked out when she got married...one would assume that Smunkee met, and possibly even dated, her husband for at least a little while before saying "I do," so this "Nice Guy" friend would have had ample warning. Smunkee doesn't strike me as the sort to accept a proposal on the first date. ;)

Didn't he like... see it coming you were gonna married? :confused:
Heh, beat me to it!

Heh, beat me to it!

Bet that's what he thought.

Bet that's what he thought.
Short posts ftw :D

Is it just me, or does that totally not make sense given what you're relying too? Maybe I'm just tired. :(
I think you are tired because that question is incoherent, however I am tired too so maybe we are both confusing eachother.

Let me explain.

My husband is a dork, he asked me out early on, it worked for him because I thought the dorky-ness was cute then, if he had waited and asked me out 2 or 3 years down the road I would have seen him as weak.

"are you dating anyone?"
"no, why?"
"well, I don't usually ask people out because I am shy, but I really think we could have fun, do you want to go out sometime?"

works.

"hey, I know you just broke up with <jerk>, and over the past few months I have really been in love with you, can we date now?"
"we are too good of friends, I don't want to ruin the friendship"

you really want to know why girls say that? because they don't want to date you, they don't think you are dating material, they think you are friend material, you wanna know why they think that? because you spent way too much time being a good friend and you blotted out any thought in their mind that you might be interested in more.

*general you there. ;)

Didn't he like... see it coming you were gonna married? :confused:
not really. I dated my husband and got married to him pretty quickly.

Especially since Smunkee says he freaked out when she got married...one would assume that Smunkee met, and possibly even dated, her husband for at least a little while before saying "I do," so this "Nice Guy" friend would have had ample warning. Smunkee doesn't strike me as the sort to accept a proposal on the first date. ;)
I dated him for about a month.....we eloped.

although he wasn't the only one that popped out of the woodwork during the first few months I was married, I had at least 4 of them "but I always thought we would date at some point" and "but I really liked you"

idiots. all of them. The one who freaked out the most was the one I had known the longest....other ones I had only known for 6 months to 3 years.

Spend more time on NS, we're always nice :fluffle:

If you insist. ;)

:fluffle:

"hey, I know you just broke up with <jerk>, and over the past few months I have really been in love with you, can we date now?"
"we are too good of friends, I don't want to ruin the friendship"

you really want to know why girls say that? because they don't want to date you, they don't think you are dating material, they think you are friend material, you wanna know why they think that? because you spent way too much time being a good friend and you blotted out any thought in their mind that you might be interested in more.

I dunno if I agree with the second part of what you say here. I think that girls often try to use nice ways of letting a guy down when they aren't interested in dating him but also don't want to hurt his feelings. There are many reasons they might not want to date him, the most common one being that they simply don't feel interested in him that way. Sometimes you just don't feel interested in somebody else in "that way."

What I don't agree with is the suggestion that the guy's mistake was spending too much time being a good friend, and that doing this "blots out" any thought of romantic possibilities. Frankly, I have never in my life encountered this situation. There is ALWAYS some other reason behind it. If the girl is interested in or attracted to the guy in question, she will not reject him simply because he's been too good a friend to her!

I think it's very important to remember that most people have friends who they aren't interested in dating. I don't know why this seems like such a shock to a lot of guys, but girls often make friends with males who they aren't interested in fucking. I have lots of friends who are wonderful people but who I would not be interested in dating. This doesn't mean there's something wrong with them (or me), just that it's possible to have great relationships with other humans which do not involve sex.

"hey, I know you just broke up with <jerk>, and over the past few months I have really been in love with you, can we date now?"
This is horrible!

A REAL Nice Guy would say:
"hey I know you just broke up with <jerk>. Can I take you on a date to cheer you up?"

I dunno if I agree with the second part of what you say here. I think that girls often try to use nice ways of letting a guy down when they aren't interested in dating him but also don't want to hurt his feelings. There are many reasons they might not want to date him, the most common one being that they simply don't feel interested in him that way. Sometimes you just don't feel interested in somebody else in "that way."

What I don't agree with is the suggestion that the guy's mistake was spending too much time being a good friend, and that doing this "blots out" any thought of romantic possibilities. Frankly, I have never in my life encountered this situation. There is ALWAYS some other reason behind it. If the girl is interested in or attracted to the guy in question, she will not reject him simply because he's been too good a friend to her!

I think it's very important to remember that most people have friends who they aren't interested in dating. I don't know why this seems like such a shock to a lot of guys, but girls often make friends with males who they aren't interested in fucking. I have lots of friends who are wonderful people but who I would not be interested in dating. This doesn't mean there's something wrong with them (or me), just that it's possible to have great relationships with other humans which do not involve sex.


I am just speaking from personal experience. I would say that I am probably biased though because the weak guys did tend to hang around me. I am best friends with my husband, but really, I think that one of the main reasons I went out with him in the first place was that he was courageous enough to ask. I don't deal well with the "if you wanna, maybe sometime, if you aren't busy and you might want to see me and maybe we can go to a movie, it might be like a date if you wanted it to be a date but if you don't it's okay because but I really like you..." type of guy, it makes me think they aren't interested.

I am just speaking from personal experience. I would say that I am probably biased though because the weak guys did tend to hang around me.

Well, then the problem wasn't that they were being "too good friends" to you, the problem was that they weren't strong people and you didn't really respect them enough to see them as romantic posibilities.


I am best friends with my husband, but really, I think that one of the main reasons I went out with him in the first place was that he was courageous enough to ask. I don't deal well with the "if you wanna, maybe sometime, if you aren't busy and you might want to see me and maybe we can go to a movie, it might be like a date if you wanted it to be a date but if you don't it's okay because but I really like you..." type of guy, it makes me think they aren't interested.
That kind of person (male or female) just bores me. I have a very short attention span, and I tend to drift off when somebody starts babbling incoherently at me.

Of course, my current lover and I got together via that really annoying grade-school thing where we fight because we like each other but are too dense to notice right away. He got jealous because I hit on another guy at a party, and then I was like, "Who do you think you are, my boyfriend? What gives you the right?"

And he was like, "Well maybe I do want to be your boyfriend! How would you like that?!"

And I was like, "Well maybe I'd like it fine!"

"Oh yeah?"

"Yeah!"

"Well FINE, then!"

"Fine! Then we're dating!"

"Fine!"

*doors slam*

Yeah, we are soooooo grown up.

Well, then the problem wasn't that they were being "too good friends" to you, the problem was that they weren't strong people and you didn't really respect them enough to see them as romantic posibilities.
very astute. you are smart today ;)


That kind of person (male or female) just bores me. I have a very short attention span, and I tend to drift off when somebody starts babbling incoherently at me.

Of course, my current lover and I got together via that really annoying grade-school thing where we fight because we like each other but are too dense to notice right away. He got jealous because I hit on another guy at a party, and then I was like, "Who do you think you are, my boyfriend? What gives you the right?"

And he was like, "Well maybe I do want to be your boyfriend! How would you like that?!"

And I was like, "Well maybe I'd like it fine!"

"Oh yeah?"

"Yeah!"

"Well FINE, then!"

"Fine! Then we're dating!"

"Fine!"

*doors slam*

Yeah, we are soooooo grown up.

yep.

"what do you do when you aren't doing this?"

"work"

"you work friday night?"

"not this week"

"good, then you can go out on a date with me"

"what if I don't want to?"

"I think you do"

"I think you are right"

:p

see? confidence....it works.

I actually never dated.... I just kissed them and took it from there

Dating is for losers anyway :p

you really want to know why girls say that? because they don't want to date you, they don't think you are dating material, they think you are friend material, you wanna know why they think that? because you spent way too much time being a good friend and you blotted out any thought in their mind that you might be interested in more.
That's not true. I have friends that I've been friends with for a long time and I would date them if the circumstances were right (one friend in particular is very busy with work and I'm busy with school and we live in different cities). And I have also dated people to discover that I'd rather just be friends with them too.

At any rate, the reason guys described in the opening post don't get the girl is that they tend to sit around for years on this information of wanting their best friend and they're needy, dependent, not daring enough et c all very unattractive qualities.

I actually never dated.... I just kissed them and took it from there

Dating is for losers anyway :p

i wouldnt really claim to dating either. but i think we do very things differently to the americans.

'Nice guys' aren't.

If you want sex/love/both, then don't be a creepy, manipulative fuck. Be honest. If you don't have the spine for honesty, drink yourself stupid 'til you've got an ancohol-incided pair, suffer whatever rejection you have to, get used to the concept & gradually try doing it sober.

There are billions of people on the planet. There not a chance in hell you'll run out of hot babes/studs before you find someone who'll want your shallow, spineless ass.

I'm sick & fucking tired of 'nice' manipulative assholes. I hope you all die lonely & pathetic, but sadly I already know you'll all find sucker after gullible sucker to twist around with your infantile little mindgames. Oh fuck you all. There's nothing worse than 'nice' guys. Nothing. I'd rather be gangraped than fall for another one of you. Ego-destroying little twats all of you.

Here's two free hints for you: Trust (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trust) & Honesty (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honesty)



To Trust someone > Have faith in >
Something what is buildup by millimeters
and breakdown in meters...

Listen up. Actually, read up. I have said CONTINUALLY in my posts that it is in my NATURE to be nice. I don't just do it to get sex. I do it because I am nice. I do it because it comes to me naturally. That's what most nice guys do. What I'm sick and tired of is the fact that since I'm naturally nice, I don't have the fucking courage to actually advance on girls. I don't want to intrude on their space, etc. etc. I fucking hate myself because of it. I wish I was one of those guys who is a total asshole. I wish I actually advanced on girls. But I know that in the long run it would fucking ruin my life. So I don't become an asshole. I stay nice. I stay myself. I stay proud.

Listen up. Actually, read up. I have said CONTINUALLY in my posts that it is in my NATURE to be nice. I don't just do it to get sex. I do it because I am nice. I do it because it comes to me naturally. That's what most nice guys do. What I'm sick and tired of is the fact that since I'm naturally nice, I don't have the fucking courage to actually advance on girls. I don't want to intrude on their space, etc. etc. I fucking hate myself because of it. I wish I was one of those guys who is a total asshole. I wish I actually advanced on girls. But I know that in the long run it would fucking ruin my life. So I don't become an asshole. I stay nice. I stay myself. I stay proud.

...Didn't you decide you were asexual? :confused:

...Didn't you decide you were asexual? :confused:

Yeah, but I mean, I'm still there for the emotional part. Even the assholes at least get some emotional love.

Listen up. Actually, read up. I have said CONTINUALLY in my posts that it is in my NATURE to be nice. I don't just do it to get sex. I do it because I am nice. I do it because it comes to me naturally. That's what most nice guys do. What I'm sick and tired of is the fact that since I'm naturally nice, I don't have the fucking courage to actually advance on girls. I don't want to intrude on their space, etc. etc. I fucking hate myself because of it. I wish I was one of those guys who is a total asshole. I wish I actually advanced on girls. But I know that in the long run it would fucking ruin my life. So I don't become an asshole. I stay nice. I stay myself. I stay proud.
Let me break it down for you really, really slowly:

If you wish that you could treat girls like shit in order to get them to fuck you, YOUR PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU ARE TOO NICE.

If you wish you could be "an asshole" to girls, and you hate that you just can't bring yourself to be abusive enough to get an emotionally unstable female to fuck you, YOUR PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU ARE TOO NICE.

If you think it would be nice to be able to hurt people in order to get the things you want, but you're held back by worries that you might get busted and it would ruin your life, YOUR PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU ARE TOO NICE.

You already objectify women and dream of being able to mistreat them in order to get what you want, you just haven't worked yourself up to actually acting on your impulses yet.

You already homogenize all females and ignore their individual differences, prefering to view them as a uniform group of Females who have crazy and irrational collective desires instead of legitimate personal wishes.

You already assume that women don't want to date you because they're crazy bitches who only want to date jerks, instead of considering that maybe they just don't want to date you because they aren't interested.

You already view yourself as entitled to other people's bodies, and you already resent them for the fact that you don't get everything (and everybody) that you want.

Your problem is not that you are too nice. Your problem, if what you are saying is true, is that you are already an asshole, you're just also scared of outing yourself as the asshole you are.

Yeah, but I mean, I'm still there for the emotional part. Even the assholes at least get some emotional love.
If you're not interested at all in sex then you're going to have a hard time finding someone who's compatible with you in a relationship anyways. You'll have to find an asexual girl as most of us have at least some sex drive.

If you insist. ;)

:fluffle:
Don't think of it as insisting, think of it more as I know where you live :)
I don't really
"Who do you think you are, my boyfriend? What gives you the right?"

And he was like, "Well maybe I do want to be your boyfriend! How would you like that?!"

And I was like, "Well maybe I'd like it fine!"

"Oh yeah?"

"Yeah!"

"Well FINE, then!"

"Fine! Then we're dating!"

"Fine!"

*doors slam*

Yeah, we are soooooo grown up.
Lol, that's brilliant. You can't write stuff like that.

Let me break it down for you really, really slowly:

If you wish that you could treat girls like shit in order to get them to fuck you, YOUR PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU ARE TOO NICE.

If you wish you could be "an asshole" to girls, and you hate that you just can't bring yourself to be abusive enough to get an emotionally unstable female to fuck you, YOUR PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU ARE TOO NICE.

If you think it would be nice to be able to hurt people in order to get the things you want, but you're held back by worries that you might get busted and it would ruin your life, YOUR PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU ARE TOO NICE.

You already objectify women and dream of being able to mistreat them in order to get what you want, you just haven't worked yourself up to actually acting on your impulses yet.

You already homogenize all females and ignore their individual differences, prefering to view them as a uniform group of Females who have crazy and irrational collective desires instead of legitimate personal wishes.

You already assume that women don't want to date you because they're crazy bitches who only want to date jerks, instead of considering that maybe they just don't want to date you because they aren't interested. Maybe it's not that they're crazy, stupid, or mean...maybe they just don't want YOU because they don't feel for you that way.

You already view yourself as entitled to other people's bodies, and you already resent them for the fact that you don't get everything (and everybody) that you want.

Your problem is not that you are too nice. Your problem, if what you are saying is true, is that you are already an asshole, you're just also scared of outing yourself as the asshole you are.

he seems like a nice bloke. a conflicted nice bloke. but still nice. at least he isnt calling anyone on the forum an asshole.

If you're not interested at all in sex then you're going to have a hard time finding someone who's compatible with you in a relationship anyways. You'll have to find an asexual girl as most of us have at least some sex drive.

He should hook up with Chandelier.

Listen up. Actually, read up. I have said CONTINUALLY in my posts that it is in my NATURE to be nice. I don't just do it to get sex. I do it because I am nice. I do it because it comes to me naturally. That's what most nice guys do. What I'm sick and tired of is the fact that since I'm naturally nice, I don't have the fucking courage to actually advance on girls. I don't want to intrude on their space, etc. etc. I fucking hate myself because of it. I wish I was one of those guys who is a total asshole. I wish I actually advanced on girls. But I know that in the long run it would fucking ruin my life. So I don't become an asshole. I stay nice. I stay myself. I stay proud.

You sound slightly bitter and resentful for someone who claims to be too nice by nature, but I would suggest to try to be more daring a bit. Maybe there are girls who are just waiting for you to ask them? Asking a girl out isn't the same as being an asshole.

he seems like a nice bloke. a conflicted nice bloke. but still nice. at least he isnt calling anyone on the forum an asshole.
That's why I included all the "ifs." I don't know if what he wrote really reflects his feelings, or if he's just confused. I'm trying to point out to him that IF he feels the way his words suggest, then he's leaping to some very wrong conclusions about why he's not getting girls to like him.

Don't think of it as insisting, think of it more as I know where you live :)

You're great. Walk me home. :)
I know :P
:fluffle:

You're great. Walk me home. :)
I know :P
:fluffle:

Lol, that's the best response anyone's ever made when I said that.
Yup, no idea where you live >.> <.<
:fluffle:

He should hook up with Chandelier.
I don't know who that is, but really, he can't reasonably expect a woman who wants sex say a couple times a week to go completely without for his own satisfaction of having a partner emotionally. I know that in any relationship there's going to be some incompatiblity with sex drives, no one is absolutely perfectly matched, but really you can't expect someone to do entirely without for you.

Lol, that's the best response anyone's ever made when I said that.
Yup, no idea where you live >.> <.<
:fluffle:

You say that to all the girls? :eek: :(

:eek: The definition from UrbanDictionary...


And I mean real ones, not the emo ones who are actually the exact opposite and are only acting like nice guys for sex.


Oh. My. God. That is me all over...I'm even planning to study for a Degree in Cancer Biology and Virology! :eek:

:eek: :eek: I'll end up working out?!? Dear God!

You say that to all the girls? :eek: :(

Only the hawt ones ;)

What I'm sick and tired of is the fact that since I'm naturally nice, I don't have the fucking courage to actually advance on girls.
NO!

(Real) Niceness has NOTHING to do with being afraid to chat up girls.

You lack confidence. Your niceness is not sapping this from you, it is something you have to work on. You can be prefectly nice and still walk right up to a woman and say "Hi, I saw you over here and think you're stunning, and thought I'd introduce myself - I'm X.". You can be perfectly nice and ask a girl out. If she likes you you are NOT invading her space.

Only the hawt ones ;)

Oh, that's alright then. :p

:fluffle:

Only the hawt ones ;)

Nice save!

Right now I'm just really, REALLY confused Bottle...

I've always been naturally nice, but recently I'm not sure whether or not that will actually allow me to get into any kind of relationship... I look at all the assholes at my school, see how many relationships they have, no matter how short they are. They still have relationships. But I don't want to become an asshole like them. I really don't. But as far as I can tell I'll have to become an asshole in order to get into a relationship. So I'm in conflict right now.

Continue to be a nice guy but don't be in relationships, including with my best friend (who's a girl), who continually gets into abusive and hurtful relationships with the assholes I've been describing, and who, therefore, I would be able to protect by being in a relationship with her. Maybe, MAYBE get into a relationship later on in life when maybe, MAYBE I'll find a girl who's grown up and realizes that she doesn't want a jerk boyfriend and who maybe, MAYBE isn't already married to a jerk, and maybe, MAYBE she'll actually be interested in me.

Or

Be an asshole. Get lots of girls. It'll fucking ruin my life later, but at least I'll be incredibly happy now.

Be an asshole. Get lots of girls. It'll fucking ruin my life later, but at least I'll be incredibly happy now.

If you're naturally a nice person (as you said before), being a jerk won't make you happy

Right now I'm just really, REALLY confused Bottle...

I've always been naturally nice, but recently I'm not sure whether or not that will actually allow me to get into any kind of relationship... I look at all the assholes at my school, see how many relationships they have, no matter how short they are. They still have relationships. But I don't want to become an asshole like them. I really don't. But as far as I can tell I'll have to become an asshole in order to get into a relationship. So I'm in conflict right now.

Continue to be a nice guy but don't be in relationships, including with my best friend (who's a girl), who continually gets into abusive and hurtful relationships with the assholes I've been describing, and who, therefore, I would be able to protect by being in a relationship with her. Maybe, MAYBE get into a relationship later on in life when maybe, MAYBE I'll find a girl who's grown up and realizes that she doesn't want a jerk boyfriend and who maybe, MAYBE isn't already married to a jerk, and maybe, MAYBE she'll actually be interested in me.

Or

Be an asshole. Get lots of girls. It'll fucking ruin my life later, but at least I'll be incredibly happy now.

I'll make it simple:

You are not failing to get the girls because you are nice. You are failing to get them because you are not asking them out and you are coming across as lacking confidence.

The assholes are not getting the girls because they are assholes. They are getting them because they approach them and ask them and are coming across as being confident.

Right now I'm just really, REALLY confused Bottle...

I've always been naturally nice, but recently I'm not sure whether or not that will actually allow me to get into any kind of relationship... I look at all the assholes at my school, see how many relationships they have, no matter how short they are. They still have relationships. But I don't want to become an asshole like them. I really don't. But as far as I can tell I'll have to become an asshole in order to get into a relationship. So I'm in conflict right now.

Do you want to be an asshole? Do you want to treat a girl like shit?

If not, then why would you want to date the kind of girl who seeks out abusive relationships?

Why do you find yourself attracted only to girls who seek out abusers to date?


Continue to be a nice guy but don't be in relationships, including with my best friend (who's a girl), who continually gets into abusive and hurtful relationships with the assholes I've been describing, and who, therefore, I would be able to protect by being in a relationship with her.

You can help and protect a friend without dating her. How would you help a male friend who was in an abusive relationship? Do the same for your female friend.

If you know somebody who is being abused, the solution is not to fuck them or date them. If you know somebody who seeks out dysfunctional relationships, the solution is not to leap into a relationship with them. They have problems that they need to solve before they are ready to be in a healthy relationship. If you want to be a good friend, help them with that. Don't think about how you can get with them...put their safety and well-being ahead of your own desire to have a date.

Also, try not to think in terms of having "a relationship," romantically speaking. That's a very low standard. You don't want just any old relationship, do you? You want a GOOD relationship! Well, you can't get a good relationship by being a shitty person.


Maybe, MAYBE get into a relationship later on in life when maybe, MAYBE I'll find a girl who's grown up and realizes that she doesn't want a jerk boyfriend and who maybe, MAYBE isn't already married to a jerk, and maybe, MAYBE she'll actually be interested in me.

Yes, life is full of uncertainties. People don't always do what you might want. Sorry, such is life. I know it's scary, but that's just how it works. Girls and women are autonomous beings, and they aren't always going to follow your script. That doesn't give you an excuse to be an asshole to them.


Be an asshole. Get lots of girls. It'll fucking ruin my life later, but at least I'll be incredibly happy now.
If you can be incredibly happy while being an asshole, then that's your problem right there.

If you'd be happy to just "get lots of girls," regardless of how you're treating them or what kind of relationship you have with them, then that's your business. Just don't fool yourself by thinking that you're a nice guy, because you're not. You're the same as the assholes you like to look down on, you just haven't taken the proactive steps that they have.

It sounds to me like you wouldn't actually be happy being an asshole, though. You want to be nice to people, including female people, and you're frustrated that being nice doesn't make them always want to date you. This frustration is normal, since most of us get bummed when we want to date somebody and they don't want to date us.

It might be nice if there was a magical solution, but there's not. Being nice will not always get you a girl, because girls are people and people have personal desires, drives, and motivations of their own. Other people don't revolve around you. Who you are is only one of the many factors that may be important to them in deciding if they want to date you.

Be patient. Don't blame other people for not moving on your time table. And don't, for the love of mercy, try to use your impatience as some kind of excuse for being a jerk. You seem to know, deep down, that it would be bullshit to do that.

Be an asshole. Get lots of girls. It'll fucking ruin my life later, but at least I'll be incredibly happy now.
Being an asshole won't get you girls. I know plenty of assholes who couldn't get laid to save their lives.

You need to be confident. We like confidence, it's a good sign that a guy won't become a needy jerk later on. Yes, you may think that you're a nice guy now, but when you're in a relationship with a girl and you're feeling insecure about her male friends and acting like she should only be hanging around with you all the time and you start giving her guilt trips about it... then you'll be one of those assholes your friends always date. Really, they're probably quite nice if you're friends with them, but in relationships they suck.

Oh, that's alright then. :p

:fluffle:
:fluffle:
Nice save!

Huzzah, a fan base!

New Noliitr, I suffer from the same complaint myself.

My story

It took me three years to tell this one young lady I liked her (told her Monday - go me :p ) and she was shocked, because I apparently didn't appear to have any interest in women. Anyway, I'm not sure where we stand right now, I can't bring myself to embarrass her by bringing it up, as technically I'm only the second guy to show romantic interest in her (the other lives 100 miles away, met her whilst she was pissed in a bar last month, and asks her to stay at his for a week 3 weeks after meeting her. No prizes for guessing what he's after). Anyway, I'm now hopelessly confused as to whether I should've said anything at all, as I hate embarrasing other people, and as we seem to barely speak, I'm hoping it's not because I scared her off.

As of now, I'm hoping for advice from fellow NSGers - preferably the women who have been through this before/know someone who has...

Slightly OOC, but NN - It's not uncommon to have no confidence and be a nice guy. But I would stick with being a nice guy.

New Noliitr, I suffer from the same complaint myself.

My story

It took me three years to tell this one young lady I liked her (told her Monday - go me :p ) and she was shocked, because I apparently didn't appear to have any interest in women. Anyway, I'm not sure where we stand right now, I can't bring myself to embarrass her by bringing it up, as technically I'm only the second guy to show romantic interest in her (the other lives 100 miles away, met her whilst she was pissed in a bar last month, and asks her to stay at his for a week 3 weeks after meeting her. No prizes for guessing what he's after). Anyway, I'm now hopelessly confused as to whether I should've said anything at all, as I hate embarrasing other people, and as we seem to barely speak, I'm hoping it's not because I scared her off.


This is another reason why "Nice Guy" does not get laid. Girls think he is not interested in them. This is reinforced by Nice Guys constant emphasis on wanting friendship.

This other guy - at least he is being honest about what he is after - she knows it, he knows it. She can make a choice based on true knowlege, which up to now she has not been able to do with you.

Honesty is always good. And better late than never - although I suspect your honesty was prompted by your 'rival'. Don't run and hide, act like you ahve a spine and talk to her. Be honest that you like her. Ask her on a date.

Who knows, she might say yes - if you ask.

I suspect your honesty was prompted by your 'rival'.

You're good...I would've preferred to have told her at a better time (possibly around the 12th of Never if my confidence had it's way) but I didn't want to lose what little chance I have with her.

Plus, I have no interest in a sexual relationship at this time - I'm sworn to chastity until marriage (good old victorian me). It's merely because it's a huge thing to me, and I want to be absolutely sure - if I love someone enough to marry them, then I love someone enough to sleep with them.

So, an invite for an evening out it is. I hate being old fashioned. Evenings out to me mean dinner at my favourite restaurant. Now I have to go read up on what people with real social lives do on a date.

I've just realised something. I'm 17, and I have a favourite restaurant. I'm turning into my grand-dad. Already.

Oh, you're only 17? Well, there's hope for you yet.

But yeah, if you take her to dinner and a movie that would probably be good. You can put your arm around her during the movie that way... and maybe end up paying not so much attention to the movie itself... ah, the joys of being young...

But yeah, if you make a grab for boob and she moves your hand away, don't try to put it back there.

And in the future, don't wait 3 years to ask a girl out.

I've just realised something. I'm 17, and I have a favourite restaurant. I'm turning into my grand-dad. Already.

Oh yeah? I bet you don't have old-man glasses and complain about your knees. :P

But yeah, if you take her to dinner and a movie that would probably be good. You can put your arm around her during the movie that way... and maybe end up paying not so much attention to the movie itself... ah, the joys of being young...

Hmmm.... I'd go more for dinner and then another activity where you can talk. If you are sitting in a movie theatre in silence for two or three hours that gives her a LOT of time to analyse the date while you're still on it, and it can feel very akward sitting right next to each other like that unless you're making out. I think cinemas for a first date are not that great. Second or third date maybe.

IF she says yes then dont be afraid to make a move and kiss her on the date. Or hold hands and the like.

Oh yeah? I bet you don't have old-man glasses and complain about your knees. :P

How much are you willing to put on that?

How much are you willing to put on that?

A sum of large monies.

Excellent. I'll take it in non-sequencial used notes, Pounds Sterling.

As for the rest of you...you guys rock. If this works, there will be a permanent tribute to the NSG on my desktop. Not sure what yet. But it'll be mildly expensive, using the money I won from that bet with Dinaverg.

Fingers crossed eh?

but I have work now...stupid co-op (British people will know what the Co-op is). Ah well. If it lets me ask her out and buy dinner...I'd do just about anything. Just about. No, not what you're thinking.

Toodles anyway.

Dan
(Ruler of PAB, and very shy nice guy)

But yeah, if you make a grab for boob and she moves your hand away, don't try to put it back there.
My favorite sport right here

All through each of these, all she ever really said was that she wanted a nice guy, who wasn't a jerk, who respected her, who was funny, who was intelligent... basically explaining me. Of course, being the nice guy, I'm sure the thought repulsed her to actually go out with the nice guy.
It's kinda like you go along for a job interview.
They read your CV, you have the interview, everything goes swimmingly.
And then they say:
"Awesome. You are perfect for the job. Couldn't pick anyone better.
...
..
.
However.
We're not going to hire you. Instead we're going to hire a loser with a drinking problem who's going to come in and seriously fuck things up for several months.

But.

While we don't want to hire you, we do really want you to hang around. Come in, make the coffee, shoot the breeze, that sort of thing.
And, oh yes. Also we will be expecting you to do some of the job duties that said above loser is hired to do. He's too incompetent but that's ok, because you can do them. You just won't get paid for it, of course - he'll get it all.

And when we finally realise what a total dick he is, we'll complain bitterly to you about how unsuitable he was - and how much better you'd be at his job.
Then we'll readvertise the position - and you're very welcome to reapply.
Of course, we will turn you down again and - again - go for someone totally unsuitable (maybe a drug addict with a gambling addiction, or anger management issues), and - again - we will want you to come in, unpaid, and do all his work while he fucks everything up and collects his pay check.

How does that sound?

Good?

When can you start?"

Excellent. I'll take it in non-sequencial used notes, Pounds Sterling.


Oh!

If she says yes MAKE SURE YOU HAVE CASH on your date.

Being caught short of ready cash for dinner/movie/drinks has sunk many dates all over the world.

This is a lesson I highly reccommend you learn through deduction or observation rather than by pissing on the electric fence for yourself.

NO!

(Real) Niceness has NOTHING to do with being afraid to chat up girls.

You lack confidence. Your niceness is not sapping this from you, it is something you have to work on. You can be prefectly nice and still walk right up to a woman and say "Hi, I saw you over here and think you're stunning, and thought I'd introduce myself - I'm X.". You can be perfectly nice and ask a girl out. If she likes you you are NOT invading her space.
An introduction like that would be a refreshing change from all the schmarmy pick up lines I've had to endure over the years. Much more likely to get a positive response than something like "stand still so I can pick you up" (yes that has actually been said to me).

An introduction like that would be a refreshing change from all the schmarmy pick up lines I've had to endure over the years. Much more likely to get a positive response than something like "stand still so I can pick you up" (yes that has actually been said to me).

Thankyou :)

This is actually the approach I use. Pretty much word for word, and I can also vouch it normally gets positive replies or polite rejections. In my experience it has the second highest success rate out of any chat-up technique.

The highest is going up to the intended girl and doing the "She's lost that loving feeling" routine with a group of your friends backing giving you backing vocals. But I dont think New Naiiter is up for that just yet.

Excellent. I'll take it in non-sequencial used notes, Pounds Sterling.

As for the rest of you...you guys rock. If this works, there will be a permanent tribute to the NSG on my desktop. Not sure what yet. But it'll be mildly expensive, using the money I won from that bet with Dinaverg.

Fingers crossed eh?

but I have work now...stupid co-op (British people will know what the Co-op is). Ah well. If it lets me ask her out and buy dinner...I'd do just about anything. Just about. No, not what you're thinking.

Toodles anyway.

Dan
(Ruler of PAB, and very shy nice guy)

More specifically, the sum of the large money 3,000 pounds, and the large money (4,000) pounds.

Thankyou :)

This is actually the approach I use. Pretty much word for word, and I can also vouch it normally gets positive replies or polite rejections. In my experience it has the second highest success rate out of any chat-up technique.

The highest is going up to the intended girl and doing the "She's lost that loving feeling" routine with a group of your friends backing giving you backing vocals. But I dont think New Naiiter is up for that just yet.

(Note to self: get follow-up singing lesson from TC)


Query: Should you try introducing yourself in that manner to someone who speaks a different language? Like, I know enough German, for example, to get that far, compliment and all; and there was this nice looking German speaker on the bus...

Thankyou :)

This is actually the approach I use. Pretty much word for word, and I can also vouch it normally gets positive replies or polite rejections. In my experience it has the second highest success rate out of any chat-up technique.

The highest is going up to the intended girl and doing the "She's lost that loving feeling" routine with a group of your friends backing giving you backing vocals. But I dont think New Naiiter is up for that just yet.
You're welcome. :)

Lol that's a cute approach. You've seen Top Gun, I take it? :) I have to admit that would get at least get a smile and a conversation out of me. I'd probably be embarrassed, but amused.

You lack confidence. Your niceness is not sapping this from you, it is something you have to work on. You can be prefectly nice and still walk right up to a woman and say "Hi, I saw you over here and think you're stunning, and thought I'd introduce myself - I'm X.". You can be perfectly nice and ask a girl out. If she likes you you are NOT invading her space.
Introducing yourself as 'X' would certainly make you look mysterious - and we know all chicks dig that.

Have to say, your pick-up line is better than my ones:
"Hi, I saw you over here and I almost came in my pants"
"Hi, you might know me from my infomercials"
"Hi, excuse the smell of pesticide but you wouldn't believe the day I've had"
"Could you tell me if the giant bats are still following me?"
"I need a HUG!"
"I'm just a big ol' lonely grizzly bear"
"Hi, you might know me from my low budget porn movies"

I think Axl Rose summed it up nicly when he sung the line 'Nice boys don't play rock n roll'

Introducing yourself as 'X' would certainly make you look mysterious - and we know all chicks dig that.

Have to say, your pick-up line is better than my ones:
"Hi, I saw you over here and I almost came in my pants"
"Hi, you might know me from my infomercials"
"Hi, excuse the smell of pesticide but you wouldn't believe the day I've had"
"Could you tell me if the giant bats are still following me?"
"I need a HUG!"
"I'm just a big ol' lonely grizzly bear"
"Hi, you might know me from my low budget porn movies"


hehe shit man, what happend to that the standard, 'Can I buy you a drink'

hehe shit man, what happend to that the standard, 'Can I buy you a drink'

I usually just went with the Zap Brannigan lines:

"If I told you that you have a beautiful body, would you take off your clothes and dance around a little?"

"I find that the most sensual part of a woman is the boobies."

Etc.

Yep. Exactly. (Except add male equivalents to the female-exclusive terms.)

And because I'm the only one who's at fault, I can't even get any pleasure from moping. Instead, I become alternatively self-mocking and absurdly proud of my own loser status.
Likewise.


2) Deep inside I know that the only person who's actually done anything wrong is me. I came across like a moron. I embarrassed myself. It's my fault that I'm not out there again, trying to find the girl that obviously does exist somewhere out there. So fine, you don't like the crowds and the heat and the atmosphere in a pub on Saturday night - boohoo, suck it up. The beach bums can deal with it, can't they?

Instead I sit here, one more day spent discussing politics, or economics, or philosophy, with other people who also should be spending their time out there.
I mean, nothing against you guys, but am I the only one who sometimes feels just a little guilty of writing so many posts per day?

Ultimately I'm not doing myself justice, and I can't tell why. I know what I should be doing, and yet I don't do it.

Put that together with all the other shit that's clogging up my life, and it doesn't look like happiness is on the cards anytime soon. And for the time being, maybe a moron like me doesn't deserve it either.

Oh crap, I'm getting depressed again. Stupid topic. Who the hell posted this OP in the first place? ;)
If your priority is improving your knowledge and consistency thereof, I see no reason why you should feel guilt over spending time on NS. I have currently decided that knowledge is my first aim. And at any rate, the type of guy I want to meet will not be the kind of moron that hangs out trying to "pull" at some hideously kitsch gay bar...

I like that idea, to be honest. It's quite sad that these days no one drinks outside the pub or club anymore (I don't like pubs or clubs). I liked it better in highschool, when we all just drank in someone's garden.
Clubs are great for a good time. Pubs, no. I haven't currently got anyone I'd like to go to a club with though, so they're out of my mind.



It's a miserable lifestyle, I'll be the first to admit. However, I find a certain joy in being actually nice to people, and can put up with the misery. Doesn't hurt that I'm dystymic, or whatever it is the doctor said I have. Basically I lack emotion is what it is.
Wow, you too? I lack it to the point that meangingful communication with others is severely limited to the exchange of ideas and theory, not idle chatter. I usually have nothing more to say. Which makes it incredibly hard for me to socialize with peers.




Does that stuff actually work?
Yes, and no. It will utterly fail and lead to dejection if the other person falls for your online persona, but not you in real-life (for instance, you may come across as far more reserved in reality). It may, on the other hand, work if you are not too far off in reality, or if the person comes to like other aspects of you. There is absolutely no guarantee that it will be successful though, contrary to what many "love experts" state. It's a good way to find compatible individuals though (which is one in a million for me...).

See, but I know that on some level there is something (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/notes/s1768606.htm) wrong with me.
Those can be horrible. :) Especially if you're otherwise polite and gregarious, and then totally silent outside of formal social environments.

Why not? But if you really want my opinion, I'd say check out some online dating thing. You're an eloquent guy.
Eloquence alone does not always suffice - it may actually lead to disappointment if in real-life you are not as eloquent, or chatty at any rate, as you appear online. For instance, I am usually eloquent when discussing matters I have an interest or knowledge of, but I am useless at chit-chat.

I understand that you're all telling me to be confident and just be frank about my feelings. But that comes rather hard to me. If my schools had to vote for ugliest person, I'd probably come out as #1 from since... About 5th or 4th grade. I'm not that attractive. I'm really not. I've always been put down. So now I myself always doubt myself, wondering and worrying all the time. It's damn near impossible for me to be self-confident.

It's damn near impossible for me to be self-confident.
This may sound silly...but do you know anything who knows something about fashion and style?

Ugliness is very often just an lack of style, ie wearing the wrong clothes, a bad haircut and so on. If you could get that sort of thing sorted out, you might feel better about yourself.

This may sound silly...but do you know anything who knows something about fashion and style?

Ugliness is very often just an lack of style, ie wearing the wrong clothes, a bad haircut and so on. If you could get that sort of thing sorted out, you might feel better about yourself.
And, well, if that fails, psychotherapy is always an answer... if that isn't sufficient, then cosmetic surgery will be.

(I will probably get flamed for even mentioning that...)

"I find that the most sensual part of a woman is the boobies."being honest does not work. Does it? :confused:

The definition from UrbanDictionary...


And I mean real ones, not the emo ones who are actually the exact opposite and are only acting like nice guys for sex.

It's a two-way street. Substitute girl for guy and bikini-clad Baywatch babe for jock and you get the rest of the story.

Bad boys are exciting nice guys aren't, it's that simple. And most girls aren't thinking about what's going to happen in the long term only about the ego-flattering attention and the pulse-racing excitement. A few years later, when they have a broken marriage and a couple of kids, they'll have second thoughts, but then it will be too late.

Fortunately, most girls do grow up before it's too late, and choose nice guys. Real nice guys - kind, polite, intelligent young gentlemen with good hygiene and good values.

Unfortunately, most guys seem to keep choosing bimbos.

OK, since we're broaching all of this, here's my deal. Sort of.


I have plenty of confidence...usually. I just do not threshold well. On anything. I get all the way up to the line, toe it, lean over it, but do not step over it. I see women I find physically attractive, but that's not enough to get me to talk to them; I need to know how their mind works or I can't be bothered to waste the energy. Of course, I turn off many "normal" people because I am very opinionated, think & believe in very outlandish terms, & have so many different facets that there's no chance of my ever fitting into "normal" society...not that I want to. I would like to threshold, & it's been a problem my entire life in everything. More so socially. I can talk to people, but starting romances..not really. With a single exception, I fall into relationships like dinosaurs into tar pits.

I have..a stalker personality. I'm NOT one, because I see it, but...how to explain this? I'm an information sponge, magnet, dealer. I get information from everywhere because I'm very observant. I find out the names of random girls, what their majors are, all of that...just because I overheard or they pay for things at work with their IDs or sometimes, a friend will look them up on Facebook if I mention something. It ends up with me wanting to say hello & talk to them & thinking "Man, I know so much about you....if you knew, you'd be so freaked." So I don't.

I live in a major uni town. There's a lot of foreign women here. Indeed, here at the computer lab, there's one girl...she's kinda cute but not drop-dead gorgeous or anything. I see her all the time; we're both here all the time. We've gotten to waving & smiling at each other when the other comes in. I think she's a grad student. I'd've talked to her by now...but she's Chinese. Like, "from China" Chinese. Her grasp of English is not so great, I think, & my knowledge of Chinese is primarily formed from multiple viewings of Firefly. So...how to get around this Chinese wall?

I live in a major uni town. There's a lot of foreign women here. Indeed, here at the computer lab, there's one girl...she's kinda cute but not drop-dead gorgeous or anything. I see her all the time; we're both here all the time. We've gotten to waving & smiling at each other when the other comes in. I think she's a grad student. I'd've talked to her by now...but she's Chinese. Like, "from China" Chinese. Her grasp of English is not so great, I think, & my knowledge of Chinese is primarily formed from multiple viewings of Firefly. So...how to get around this Chinese wall?
[/LIST]

I don't know about the other parts, but maybe offer to teach her English? That's how my mom met my dad almost exactly, and they're still together after 20-something years.

I don't know about the other parts, but maybe offer to teach her English? That's how my mom met my dad almost exactly, and they're still together after 20-something years.

Well, see...I don't KNOW that her English is shit. I mean, grad students have to pass the TOEFL to be accepted. She might just be pulling a Margaret Cho. But...that's not a bad idea. Expound, Ensign.

I live in a major uni town. There's a lot of foreign women here. Indeed, here at the computer lab, there's one girl...she's kinda cute but not drop-dead gorgeous or anything. I see her all the time; we're both here all the time. We've gotten to waving & smiling at each other when the other comes in. I think she's a grad student. I'd've talked to her by now...but she's Chinese. Like, "from China" Chinese. Her grasp of English is not so great, I think, & my knowledge of Chinese is primarily formed from multiple viewings of Firefly. So...how to get around this Chinese wall?
[/LIST]
I can prob help you there, seeing as I've had relationships with 4 Chinese women (1 from Hong Kong, 1 from Taiwan and 2 from China) in the past 5 years.

First one I met was back in NZ. She was learning english and as I was studying to be a teacher, I naturally offered to help her with her english.

Big thing that swung it for me was I showed genuine (and it is genuine btw) interest in her culture and language. While I was helping her english, I'd also ask her what the chinese word for it was and have her teach me a few Chinese phrases. I'd also ask her about her country, culture, food,
current events (stay away from politics - but then, one should never talk politics the first few dates with anyone ;)) and how she is handling living in a different country.

Basic rule of humanity: Everyone loves to feel they are knowledgeable and can help others. It makes them feel good. Let her do as much talking as possible.

Also learn a few basic ones and surprise her with them. Next time you see her, instead of waving and saying hello, say "Ni Hao" (pronounced 'Knee - How'). It means 'Hello'. Trust me, she'll be really blown away by such a simple gesture. And it will make her curious as to why you know the Chinese for Hello, which gives you an opening to continue talking. Tell her you're really interested in China and have always wanted to visit it - which then lets you ask her where in China is she from and then I leave the rest up to you.
Ni gui xing?: "What is your name?"
Wo shi Shikishima: "I am Shikishima"
"Wo he ni lian xi zhong wen hao ma?" means "Can I practise Chinese with you?"
Ming tian jian: "See you tomorrow!"
Dui Bu Qi!: "Sorry!" (Qi kinda sounds like 'she').
Xi wang xia ci zai jian dao ni: "Hope to see you again!"

Also, ask her if she's seen much of the place you live in. Offer to show her around a few of the more interesting sights - not just her though. Specifically ask if her and her friends want to come along. Not only because Chinese love doing things in a group, remember she's also a woman living in a completely different culture and (if she really is from China) been brought up being indoctrinated about the evil West (They are literally told in sex ed that nearly every Western man has HIV or AIDs). So if you just ask her out just the two of you too early, she'll prob turn you down. Make her feel safe and happy around you first (I know that's something you should do with any woman, but it takes a bit longer with Chinese women - trust me)




And if you want to make her laugh, go up to her and tell her a friend said this to you but wouldn't tell you what it means. Act like you really don't know what it means and are just really curious (actually not much of an act, cause I'm not going to translate!)
Ni Hao Piao Liang
and
Wo jue de ni hen ke ai

(Don't worry, they aren't sleazy. She'll look embarrassed and giggle, but she will really like it. :))

That...helps a lot, actually. Because it's mostly true. I HAVE been wanting to learn Mandarin for quite some time, & even got one of those "learn by listening" deals, but it just..falls by the wayside. I do know some Chinese terms (including "nihao" & the correct pronunciation..which reminds me, can you tell me what the ascending & descending stresses on all those are so I don't end up saying "Your goat is like my mother the door"?). I listen to Chinese music a lot. One of my favorite authors is Chinese & writes mysteries set in Shanghai. Every year I throw a party for Chinese New Year; half the decorations are still up because of laziness & because I like the way they look.

The hardest part I suppose i...breaking through the barrier. We always sit at the same computers--she's 3 units to my right--& she usually comes in, eats her food, stays here...forever, even falling asleep at times, & sits & watches YouTube & studies. It's diffiuclt for me to...up & "annoy" someone; the thresholding thing again. So. We'll see.

I do know some Chinese terms (including "nihao" & the correct pronunciation..which reminds me, can you tell me what the ascending & descending stresses on all those are so I don't end up saying "Your goat is like my mother the door"?).
I could, but I think there's someone alot closer to you that can help you with correct pronounciation ;)
Again, trust me on this. If you get the tones wrong, she'll just find it funny and cute. The fact you'tre trying is the most important thing. Just remember to say, "Dui Bu Qi!" often.

Great that you already have a bit of knowledge and interest in Chinese. Definitely mention it, but don't go overboard boring her with all your knowledge of her country. Remember, she knows more than you about it!

If she watches YouTube all the time, why not just ask her what she's watching?

If she watches YouTube all the time, why not just ask her what she's watching?

Because to me that's nosy. I grew up 75 minutes from New York City. When someone I don't know comes up to me & asks me, "What are you watching?" I stare at them & say, "It best be you moving away from me before I punch you in the face." Again, this goes to commonality. I don't go "Hey, you're cute, let's talk" because that's not enough for me. I don't want to go "HAY I HAVE AN AZN FETYSH WNT 2 HLP ME LAWLZ KTHXBYE" either.

Because to me that's nosy. I grew up 75 minutes from New York City. When someone I don't know comes up to me & asks me, "What are you watching?" I stare at them & say, "It best be you moving away from me before I punch you in the face." Again, this goes to commonality. I don't go "Hey, you're cute, let's talk" because that's not enough for me. I don't want to go "HAY I HAVE AN AZN FETYSH WNT 2 HLP ME LAWLZ KTHXBYE" either.

But you recognize and know each other sorta. If she asked you something, you wouldn't threaten her, would you?

But you recognize and know each other sorta. If she asked you something, you wouldn't threaten her, would you?

That depends. Is she asking me to hold a vial of radiaoctive acid? Because that gets a yes.

I don't know. I know that the problem is within me. It's not a fear of rejection, more a fear of..."creeping her out?" Invading her space & privacy?

We'll see.

Because to me that's nosy.
I don't mean you just plop yourself down next to her and spit out, "What are you watching?"
I meant more, next time you see her find a reason to walk past her booth and when she looks up smile and say 'Ni Hao'. That will make her stop what's she doing and want to talk to you. She'll first want to know what you said, to make certain you did just say, 'Ni Hao' and then she'll ask you if you know what it means and why you know it.
At this point, casually sit down rather than contiue standing over her (it's very initimidating standing over someone) and just tell her you know a few words in Chinese (don't go on about trying to learn it at your first meeting cause it might look like you have yellow fever).
And then, if she does have Youtube up on screen ask her what she's been watching.

I understand that you're all telling me to be confident and just be frank about my feelings. But that comes rather hard to me. If my schools had to vote for ugliest person, I'd probably come out as #1 from since... About 5th or 4th grade. I'm not that attractive. I'm really not. I've always been put down. So now I myself always doubt myself, wondering and worrying all the time. It's damn near impossible for me to be self-confident.

Warning: Wide Ranging Generalization Ahead

Women go for confidence and personality waaaay ahead of looks.

This is not to say that looks do not matter but a guy scoring 5/10 on looks and 10/10 on confidence will beat a guy scoring 10/10 on looks and 5/10 on confidence almost every time.

To women, confidence is probably the most attractive trait a man can have.

Yup, it's been another three months, time for another "nice guys finish last" thread. :rolleyes:
I hear their women thank them for it.http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

I meant more, next time you see her find a reason to walk past her booth and when she looks up smile and say 'Ni Hao'. That will make her stop what's she doing and want to talk to you. She'll first want to know what you said, to make certain you did just say, 'Ni Hao' and then she'll ask you if you know what it means and why you know it.
At this point, casually sit down rather than contiue standing over her (it's very initimidating standing over someone) and just tell her you know a few words in Chinese

Actually, she usually walks past me. I sit at the end of the table. It extends down to my right (she's usually 3 units away) & the help desk for this side of the lab is bearing about 290, next to the door. So she'll pass me, or go around the other side of the table. And she has that very fast, very straight-limbed walk that only women from Asia seem to be able to do. It's funny & yet cute it its own odd way.

I dunno. I'm not antisocial (well, yes I AM at times)...just..shy. I guess.

I dunno. I'm not antisocial (well, yes I AM at times)...just..shy. I guess.
I hear ya. I was like that as well (still am most of the times, truth be told).
Cliched as it is, you have to tell yourself you have nothing to lose if she's not interested.

Honestly, the best relationships I've had have come about from me approaching said woman and not thinking at the time about the 'embarrassment' I'd 'suffer' from being turned down.

Again a cliche, but the world ain't going to end if she's turns down the offer of going for a coffee. Just shrug and say, "That's a shame. If you ever change your mind let me know. It's been cool talking to you."


I know what you mean by the way Asian women walk. I think it's to do with their small bone structure and narrow hips.

Okaaay. Are you an upset 'nice guy'? If not, then why did you bother whining about it? Are you looking for a 'nice girl' to lean on? [I guess I could be perceived as on of them, except that I'm honestly not a very genuine or open person]. If a guy is stupid enough to hang around shallow, selfish girls like that then he deserves everything that's coming to him.

But, honestly, most 'nice guys' I know have girlfriends, and quite attractive ones at that. Some girls are completely selfish, self-centered and shallow; I know some of them and can't stand them, but there's a lso a good number who'll go for the nice guy who'll treat her right. Granted, some of those just do that because he'll wait on her every hand and foot and will do all he can for her, but that's a different story. Many girls will fall for the less attractive, incredibly kind type. What would really amaze me would be a guy falling for the female equivalent (they do exist, you know!).

I know what you mean by the way Asian women walk. I think it's to do with their small bone structure and narrow hips.

The great love of my life, who I met 5 years ago, was Korean. Tiny, but curvy.

I hear ya. I was like that as well (still am most of the times, truth be told).
Cliched as it is, you have to tell yourself you have nothing to lose if she's not interested.

We need the blue shirt at the bottom here. (http://xkcd.com/store/)

She zipped past me a few minutes ago on her way out to..I don't know, the bathroom. Today her hair is not as all over as it has been. In fact, lately, it's been more & more..."gathered," I suppose, & there's pretty blue ribbon bow in it. When she came back I said hello & told her I liked her bow, that it was very pretty. She smiled & said "thank you." So.

Small steps.

The nice guy will eventually realize that his dependability and empathy will never be appreciated and all his friendships with females are all one-sided. This coupled with years of watching girls go for tanned, muscular jerk-offs with nice cars while he desperately hopes someone will realize that how viable he actually is will spawn and incubate the nice guy’s insecurities and he will eventually abandon his views, dumb-down his speech, take-up weight-lifting and switch majors from cancer research with a minor in theoretical physics to playground management so he can devote his time to emulating Baywatch characters and football players so that he will one day be viewed as more than a “nice guy.”


Or the nice guy can stop living in bad faith, release himself from prison (the door being locked from the inside), and refuse to surrender his self-worth and independence to those who are obviously not worth it (99.9999999999% of the general population, and even the 0.0000000001% is doubtful). He can continue to hold his views, to engage in intelligent speech, to hate lifting weights, and to pursue his intellectual and/or career goals, all the while indicating to those who don't like it the particular orifice into which they can stick it.

Why anyone would willingly desire to imprison themselves to the arbitrary will of another where there is little or no real advantage for doing so is something my brain simply refuses to comprehend or understand. It's just silly. (edit: I spent an entire lunch period during high school watching someone bawl her eyes out over some guy not asking her to some dance or other function. It struck me rather like watching a prisoner lament her being held captive, while the cell door stands wide open. The absurdity is actually rather humorous.)

1. Approach directly making your motivation and intent clear to her and asking her out.
Why would I ever ask out a girl I don't even know?

Yes, it really does. Because "nice guys" uniformly complain about how they can't get HOT GIRLZ. They are always so very nice to HOT GIRLZ. They complain about their lack of ability to get HOT GIRLZ, and how all the jerks get HOT GIRLZ. For some reason, they decide that the reason they don't get HOT GIRLZ is because they're just too nice, and conclude that they should become huge assholes to get HOT GIRLZ.

Nevermind actually caring about human beings who happen to be female. Never mind having a standard for one's partner beyond "is really really hawt!!!!" Never mind basic honesty and human decency. Just do anything and everything that you can think of to get your cock stuck in a HOT GIRL.

So nice. So very, very nice.
The end of your rant epitomises the rest so I won't bother quoting it all. I don't think these manipulative snakes are all that common. Neu Leonstein doesn't appear to be one. And you've clearly never been rejected.

Especially since Smunkee says he freaked out when she got married...one would assume that Smunkee met, and possibly even dated, her husband for at least a little while before saying "I do," so this "Nice Guy" friend would have had ample warning. Smunkee doesn't strike me as the sort to accept a proposal on the first date. ;)
Just reaffirms my suspicion that everyone in Smunkee's environs seems to be a complete idiot.

you really want to know why girls say that? because they don't want to date you, they don't think you are dating material, they think you are friend material, you wanna know why they think that? because you spent way too much time being a good friend and you blotted out any thought in their mind that you might be interested in more.

Makes sense. How many hours of company do you think is the optimal amount of time to spend before asking her out?

He got jealous because I hit on another guy at a party, and then I was like, "Who do you think you are, my boyfriend? What gives you the right?"

And he was like, "Well maybe I do want to be your boyfriend! How would you like that?!"

And I was like, "Well maybe I'd like it fine!"

"Oh yeah?"

"Yeah!"

"Well FINE, then!"

"Fine! Then we're dating!"

"Fine!"

Do you live in an episode of Friends or some such?

Good story. :)

Do you live in an episode of Friends or some such?

Good story. :)

Actually, I read it in the voices of Mal & Wash from Firefly.

I friend of mine, a yong woman who certainly meets any criteria of "smart", "attractive" or "hot" that you want to throw out there, wrote something on this a while ago, and since her words are far better than my own on the subject, I figured I'd put out there her point of view on the subject:

I recently participated in a: Defend your Sex project that a journalist friend of mine is running at a local university. The project began with a "Nice guys finish last" column intended to provoke responses from heterosexual men who always feel they're getting the short end of the deal when it comes to women ("always the friend, but never the frisky friend"). Next the study had a group of women fill out an application (answering trigger questions) and provide photos and had the men pick out the women they thought would be the kind of girls that nice guys finish last with. If a girl was chosen often enough, she had to meet with the challengers who listed her as their #1 "maneater" and hear them state their case on behalf of all the nice guys out there. Really what happened at this stage is that I was basically shouted at by (there's really no pretty way to say this, so I apologize) angry dorks who spittled on me as they made heated accusations while I sat there in complete silence. Speaking was not permitted by the female. Next I was brought into a small room and given 30 min to respond to the three main complaints alleged by my challengers. My response is intended to be defensive and provoke continued discourse on the subject. My last requirement as part of the study is that I post my responses on myspace or facebook. Normally I would not have time for this he said she said study nonsense but I got a fancy dinner, free drinks and an IPOD Shuffle out of the deal. My response to the spittlers was the following: (remember, I am responding very specifically to things they said in their arguments about themselves and prompts on the question/ answer sheet)



1. NICE GUYS FINISH LAST. And other urban legends of dating.

Those of you who relate to this phrase need to grow a sack and some self-respect. Quit your whining already. Nice guys do not finish last; they date fine females who are not turned on by some meathead in a fancy car wearing a Movado watch. They sleep with the sexy, intelligent women of the world who will not stand for being cheated on and appreciate a kind soul, a good lover, and stimulating conversation. I posit that nice guys do not finish last, pushovers do. It seems to be the goal of many young women to break strong, dominating men and convert them into little lap dogs. It is a power thing that most women have been caught up in at least once but get over after the first time when they realize how worthless a passtime this is. Some girls make a hobby of it. They make a bad name for the rest of us who actually have hearts beating beneath our ribcages. These true maneaters create what is almost always a lose-lose situation for the men.You see, when men have other priorities in their lives, women often fight them every step of the way, constantly reminding them what their first priority should be: their lovely girlfriend. Yet this is actually a test merely disguised as a battle. If men do not always give in and put their girlfriends first (or make us think they do), we will continue to oppose them. However, the real problem starts when you always give in, you always put us first, and we always win. Men, or boys rather, who do this can call themselves nice guys until they turn blue but it doesn't change the fact that they lose our respect. Worthwhile women do not want a puppy as a boyfriend (although we may spend a lifetime putting you through obedience school). That's half of what we love about men. We bitch about it, but we secretly want them to be rugged and disobedient and messy so we can forever try to teach them to be refined, obedient and sophisticated. It's okay if we never succeed. I'm straight. I like boys. I don't want to date a slightly more masculine version of myself (yawn). I don't want to date a pushover who lets me get away with anything I want to. We want you to maybe buy us a puppy, but only if we deserve it (fyi: if you're shopping for one for meeee, I hate lap dogs, ankle biters and little yippers... I like rough and tumble dogs like German Shepards, Goldens, Labs, etc), not be our puppy.




2. WHY WOMEN PREFER ASSHOLES TO NICE GUYS

Contrary to popular belief, the selection of a mate is not just about power and confidence, although those certainly matter. When I use the term asshole, I am using it in a very narrow context. It does not refer to abusers, cheaters, or players. Let's characterize assholes, for the purpose of this discussion, as men a woman's friends (male and female) do not want her dating because they are quiet, seemingly haughty, introverted, etc. And nice guys are 1. men who compliment everyone they meet (be it a female his age, his best friend's mother or the lady behind him in the grocery store) or 2. the comedian who never steps off stage. These nice guys may seem like a lovely addition to the planet. As human beings, I am sure they are generally top notch (and are often somewhat metro sexual). I find, based on the collective experiences of my female friends and I, that the habitual compliment-givers and stage performers make superb friends and terrible boyfriends. Initially, they make you feel fabulous. They tell you how stunning you look, how smart you are, they admire your soft skin, your new earrings, your change in hairstyle. They truly seem to notice the intricacies that are unique to you and appreciate them. They listen better, they hold doors, they tell you: "My darling, you look wonderful tonight." They will often be described as the funniest guy your friends have ever met. Ever. They make everyone laugh and brighten everyone's day. They strive to make others feel good about themselves. Unfortunately, I have only child syndrome. Mememememe. This translates to mean that I want to be the only one that gets special treatment from the boy of my choosing and I do not just mean sexually. Other privileges and immunities should also naturally be part of a relationship (in my admittedly delusional mind). My potential love interest should not only make me feel special but he should make me feel more special than he makes everyone else feel. It is great the first time he tells you how spectacular you look. Until you hear him say the same thing to a friend. And to a friend's girlfriend. And her mom. And her grandma. Once you realize he goes over the top for everyone, he can no longer make you feel as special when he compliments you. Because they only make you feel as special as they make everyone else feel. We get tired of hearing from every girl in the room that our boyfriend is the nicest guy they've ever met, and the funniest, the sweetest, the most thoughtful and the best listener. If you like him so much, you can have em. Only we should know how funny and sweet and charming our men truly are. That is why dating assholes can be so appealing to women. Women do not have to worry that their boyfriends are seen as flirting with or hitting on every girl they meet because he does not give most people the time of day. He probably does not even like people. Nevertheless, he loves his girlfriend. Women know they have nothing to fear when they are dating this sort of asshole because their bastardly companion thinks poorly of just about everyone he meets. Yet by some stroke of genius, they feel we alone are worthy. And I am okay with that. Maybe they have delusions of grandeur. Maybe they are angry and cynical. Maybe they think their darling girlfriend is the only one who understands them. Either way, I will take the bastard over the habitual compliment-giver or stage performer because I know that no one else sees the side of him that I do. And there is something to be said for that. To me, that is special. That makes me feel privileged. Personally, I do not want to share my intimate moments with all my friends nor would I want Mr. Lovah-Lovah to (think Shaggy). Similarly, I do not want to share the most cherished side of my man of choice with anyone else. Mememememe. Something other than mind-blowing sex needs to be saved and shared only with me.




3. CHICKS DON'T DIG DORKS/ POOR BOYS: Myth. Falsehood. Blatant lie.

You are all way off base on this one. I have many types of men that I seem to go for. I don't date blondes, so nice try on pegging me as an Abercrombie surfer dude loving girl. So far, I am strictly attracted to men with brown or black hair. (Makes for better wedding photos) I have not dated someone shorter than myself. Historically I seem to have a hard time dating men with a lot of money because I won't let them spend it on me. The problem is, I don't want them to think I'm only in it for the money so I never let them pay for dates/ etc. and it just ends up being way too expensive for me. (ironically, I have no problem letting middle classers indulge me, it's only the rich ones I take issue with) I don't give out false phone numbers or accept phone numbers from random men, although I will let them buy me drinks only if they are passed directly from the bartender to my hand. I don't like meatheads (jarheads are fine), men who obsess over their bodies, or men who think they are gods gift to women. I prefer thoughtful, personal, creative gifts to mindless expensive ones. And, against all odds, I seem to have a thing for dorks. When single and confronted with the option of dating the resident hunk that everyone's falling over themselves for or the so called dork, I will always pick the "dork". Always. Intelligence and humor and confidence and humility are all dead sexy. So there. No I've never dated a model or a photographer. I have dated athletes and musicians and servicemen, but only semi-"dorky" ones. And when I say dorky I mean so in the hottest possible way. I find cocky pricks ugly regardless of their otherwise pristine physical appearance. I don't like men who are prettier than I am. And now for the celebs: Brad Pitt or Edward Norton? You said I'd choose Brad Pitt and I actually chose Edward Norton. George Clooney or Ryan Gosling? Please, have you seen the notebook? No wonder you're not landing dates. Freddie Prinze Jr or Jake Gyllenhaal? JARHEAD Jake. Happy dating fellas, happy to prove you wrong.

I live in a major uni town. There's a lot of foreign women here. Indeed, here at the computer lab, there's one girl...she's kinda cute but not drop-dead gorgeous or anything. I see her all the time; we're both here all the time. We've gotten to waving & smiling at each other when the other comes in. I think she's a grad student. I'd've talked to her by now...but she's Chinese. Like, "from China" Chinese. Her grasp of English is not so great, I think, & my knowledge of Chinese is primarily formed from multiple viewings of Firefly. So...how to get around this Chinese wall?

Don't. Chinese girls are just strange. Or maybe I'm just wrong.

I can't really explain it. I wish I could. This will to be happy just sort of developed in me and completely changed my personality.As I'm going along in this thread, I just felt like responding to this. Those of you who remember Undelia when he/she first came to this forum will remember a VERy different person. Keeping in mind that the internet is the medium that allows for the msot deception and craziest lies, but taking things at face value, I can verify that Undelia has done a 180. I can't recall a poster that is any more cringeable and vicious than he/she used to be - now I find Undelia more or less reasonable, and rather nice.

Don't. Chinese girls are just strange. Or maybe I'm just wrong.

I think you might just be wrong. But then, I'm "strange" myself. To put it mildly.

I talked to her very briefly last night. Now she's on the other side of the lab. Perhaps I scared her.

Seriously though, I'm gonna be done with my exams in a few weeks time, leaving me with basically three months of holidays. I'm not gonna spend them on NSG again like last year, I don't think I wanna put myself through that guilt again.

Which just leaves me with one thing: Do what my mates here do...which is going to bars and clubs. I suppose there's no better place to learn, but I still don't like the crowds and the heat.Save bit of time for us poor sods. NS would be less fun without you. And by the way, from your posts you're not only inteligent and compasionate, but you seem to have a fair bit of intuition into people. I'm sure that with a bit of practice, you won't feel too uncomfortable in social situations.

I'm only getting used to those too. I never went out in highschool, and only a little bit in first and second year, but only with people I already knew for birthdays and things. My ex-boyfriend and I met at work, and we never went out to clubs or bars, because well, what was the point when we had each other? So basically crouded, loud places with music and alcohol scare me more or less to death now, even though I'm a fairly social person generally, and not shy at all. I've 'practiced' going to these places a bit lately, and you do get the hang of it (essentially, these environments have very simple formulae that are easy to exploit after a while - though they get boring). I doubt I'll ever like that scene much, and would infinitely prefer seeing movies or reading most of the time - but even though I need to put in a concerted effort to go to these places, it can be fun in a manner of speaking. All you need is one good night out to boost your confidence and be like "I can do this" - and you might meet some amazing person that will render further attendance of bars uneccesarry. Of course, I tend to worry that most of the people that frequent these places aren't my kind of person.

so......next thread!

I am, and always have been, a nice guy.
In high school I fit the OP description to a T.
Always the friend never the boyfriend.

As I got older I got a little more confident and did pretty well with the ladies.
Now that my relationship with my wife has ended I find it very hard to get back out there and meet someone new.

It is not only the fact that I work 50 hours a week and care for two children by myself that is holding me back.

My wife hurt me in ways I never thought anyone could.
I trusted her completely and got cheated on and dumped for trusting her and being faithful to her.

I guess what I am trying to say is that my confidence in myself has been shattered because if I was so blind and such a fool how can I ever trust my instincts again?

It's the fact that they continue to get abusive (physically and emotionally) boyfriends, yet they continue to think that every guy like thier last boyfriend is "completely different", while in fact it's painstakingly obvious that they aren't. Let's not forget they continually give "second chances" to those who have already abused them. It's a sad, sad cycle. I'm more concerned about the girls than me.

Yeah, I'm a nice guy and see this happen to all my lady friend. Ironically, I am also the "Muscular Guy" which is described in Urban Dictionary. However, I have not once had a girlfriend, as they always say: "You're too....nice to be a boy friend." (Yes, I get that all the time)

So, I give up. I don't care anymore. Meh! :mad:

So, I give up. I don't care anymore. Meh! :mad:
If you give up, you give up on meeting someone like this:
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1154/jessica02xp2.jpg

Yeah, I'm a nice guy and see this happen to all my lady friend. Ironically, I am also the "Muscular Guy" which is described in Urban Dictionary. However, I have not once had a girlfriend, as they always say: "You're too....nice to be a boy friend." (Yes, I get that all the time)

So, I give up. I don't care anymore. Meh! :mad:

It's simple.

When you meet a girl you want to go out with, you ask them out.

DO NOT befriend them before asking them out.

Meet. Ask.

Nothing more too it.

She will appreciate you making your intentions clear from the start and it will refect well on you.

The end of your rant epitomises the rest so I won't bother quoting it all. I don't think these manipulative snakes are all that common.

They're common enough to post "Nice Guys Finish Last" rants at least once a month around here. And this forum is, arguably, one of the least hospitable places to such nonsense. I've seen countless websites and personal pages devoted to this very subject. I've listened to dozens of guys in real life make the same stupid complaints.

These "Nice Guy" types are not the majority by any stretch of the imagination. Most guys are far too cool for this kind of bullshit. But there are enough loud "Nice Guys" to really get in everybody else's way. They're common enough to be annoying.


Neu Leonstein doesn't appear to be one.

Like I said, most guys aren't. Problem is, the "Nice Guys" tend to be very good at tapping into normal feelings of insecurity and frustration, such that even genuinely cool guys will often be found repeating bits of "Nice Guy" propaganda and bullshit. That's why the "Nice Guys" really suck...they start to ruin ACTUAL nice guys.


And you've clearly never been rejected.

Sure I have. Why would you assume otherwise? Not everybody becomes a resentful asshole just because they don't get their way in every romantic situation.

It's simple.

When you meet a girl you want to go out with, you ask them out.

DO NOT befriend them before asking them out.

Meet. Ask.

Nothing more too it.

She will appreciate you making your intentions clear from the start and it will refect well on you.
Sorry, but I think that's terrible advice.

You shouldn't decide whether you want to go out with a girl until AFTER you are already friends with her. If you haven't gotten to know her well enough to be friends, then you don't know her well enough to know if you'd like to go out with her.

It's fine to tell her you're attracted to her, to get that out in the open, but you shouldn't be deciding which girls to go with just because they look pretty or you feel some initial attraction. That's a great way to have shallow, failed relationships piling up one after the other.

They're common enough to post "Nice Guys Finish Last" rants at least once a month around here.

I suspect that it's a lot due to something akin to this... (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/54876)