NationStates Jolt Archive

Grenades are far less lethal than most people say. When a grenade explodes at 3 meters from you, its a crapshoot on whether or not you will be wounded at all. It's a matter of luck whether or not a fragment will strike you.

A grenade certainly CAN be lethal at 5 meters. It's just not likely going to be lethal from that range. According to Jim Dunnigan's "How to Make War," 90% of grenade wounds are non-lethal. BTW, he is my source on how lethal grenades are. They are great for wounding a group of enemies, but not great at killing them.

BTW, Kerry was firing a grenade and hit the rock on the shore. I am unsure of how far away it was, but it was likely at the furthest reaches of the grenade. He got hit by shrapnel from it, but it was his own weapon.

I still think you are talking through your hat.

Not only because I think you have been deceived over the nature of the wounds in the story we are discussing... but also because a quick websearch instantly throws up statistics that suggest the one reference book you use, might ALSO be talking through it's hat.

Maybe 90% of all grenade wounds are non-lethal. The first source I found suggests burst radius figures might be more than 100m, with a lethal range of about 5 meters. If we assume 90% of possible victims are outside of the 5m radius (not unlikely)... that would make a 40mm grenade about 100% lethal WITHIN that radius.

Perhaps you are confusing 40mm grenades with 'hand' grenades?

What I'm interested in is whether or not you are capable of that same level of intellectual honesty because, swift boaters aside, George Bush was the pussy, not Kerry.

Busheviks are all about projectionism. Whatever is wrong with them, they insist is on others. Kerry was the coward, Democrats are the gay child molesters, so on and so forth.

Kerry is no "war hero!" He was a glory hound who faked at least two of his three wounds to get enough Purple Hearts to bail out on his men and return to the US so he could call them "war criminals." He's a lying, cheating asshole who married twice into wealth so he would have enough money to buy public office. I wouldn't waste a bullet on the son-of-a-bitch.

It's clear you are were never in the military or you're a lower level subserviant. Maybe a NCO at best, but I highly doubt that. Where's your proof he faked any of his purple hearts? The Swift Boaters? The guys who were miles away who claim to have first hand knowledge of what happened while very single man on his boat concur with his story. Are you desimating the NAVY and saying they are incapable of invesitgating his citations. You know he won more awards right? Not just the pruple hearts. Purple hearts don't make you a hero, they just make you injured. Navy Cross with combat V ring a bell? Your anger and hatred show your disgust for a soldier who you are trying to reem out for dishonoring soliders. Hyprocsy knows your address. I've had the chance to read Kerry's citations an incident reports on pdf and you are just flat out wrong. WRONG! No swiftboater from miles away is going to tell me different. They were opportunists at best, paid liars at worst.

It's clear you are were never in the military or you're a lower level subserviant. Maybe a NCO at best, but I highly doubt that. Where's your proof he faked any of his purple hearts? The Swift Boaters? The guys who were miles away who claim to have first hand knowledge of what happened while very single man on his boat concur with his story. Are you desimating the NAVY and saying they are incapable of invesitgating his citations. You know he won more awards right? Not just the pruple hearts. Purple hearts don't make you a hero, they just make you injured. Navy Cross with combat V ring a bell? Your anger and hatred show your disgust for a soldier who you are trying to reem out for dishonoring soliders. Hyprocsy knows your address. I've had the chance to read Kerry's citations an incident reports on pdf and you are just flat out wrong. WRONG! No swiftboater from miles away is going to tell me different. They were opportunists at best, paid liars at worst.

Commissar Forrest is a self-proclaimed Vietnam Vet who worships a draft dodging incompetent George W. Bush. And yet he calls Jane Fonda, Cindy Sheehan and John Kerry traitors. The irony is amusing.

It's clear you are were never in the military or you're a lower level subserviant. Maybe a NCO at best, but I highly doubt that. Where's your proof he faked any of his purple hearts? The Swift Boaters? The guys who were miles away who claim to have first hand knowledge of what happened while very single man on his boat concur with his story. Are you desimating the NAVY and saying they are incapable of invesitgating his citations. You know he won more awards right? Not just the pruple hearts. Purple hearts don't make you a hero, they just make you injured. Navy Cross with combat V ring a bell? Your anger and hatred show your disgust for a soldier who you are trying to reem out for dishonoring soliders. Hyprocsy knows your address. I've had the chance to read Kerry's citations an incident reports on pdf and you are just flat out wrong. WRONG! No swiftboater from miles away is going to tell me different. They were opportunists at best, paid liars at worst.
Some of those Swift Boaters served on his boat. I trust those men. As for his citations, they are questionable. The first 2 doctors he sought refused to sign the papers for his Purple Hearts because they knew an M-203 grenade would be a self inflicted wound.

Commissar Forrest is a self-proclaimed Vietnam Vet who worships a draft dodging incompetent George W. Bush. And yet he calls Jane Fonda, Cindy Sheehan and John Kerry traitors. The irony is amusing.

Don't turn around; Uh-oh!

Der Kommisar's in town; Uh-


OH! Tainted love, woaaaaah, tainted love...


... God damned commercial.

Some of those Swift Boaters served on his boat. I trust those men. As for his citations, they are questionable. The first 2 doctors he sought refused to sign the papers for his Purple Hearts because they knew an M-203 grenade would be a self inflicted wound.

First, would you address my comment above?

Second, are you saying that Kerry deliberately dropped a grenade next to himself to injure himself? I don't believe ANYONE who has any desire to be alive would inflict themselves deliberately with a grenade. That's just a stupid contention. If it wasn't purposeful and he still wounded himself then what it means is that he was in close combat with the enemy. How did George Bush fare when he was on close combat with the enemy while he was serving his country?

Knock yourself out, dude. It's what lefties do best.

what the F kind of response is this? It doesn't even make sense. Or are you too much a troll with your mind made up to actually debate anything? You have two moves, pete and repeat. Sqwaaakk, sqwaaaak.

Eut the troops have spoken ,,,


http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20061101TroopsMessage.jpg

Ok-I'm punchung out. There was almost a chance of this thread having some meaning, but its turned into a week of yellow shit storms instead.

Eut the troops have spoken ,,,


http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20061101TroopsMessage.jpg

Yeah, too bad those soldiers have selective reading capabilities. If only they'd gotten better grades, they could've read that what Kerry said was taken out of context and used against him by a desperate administration clinging to the last strands of whatever it is they have left in an attempt to stay alive.

Too bad.

There is strong evidence out there to support Eut's statements. All three of his purple hearts are very questionable.

Why don't you just grow up and try to understand the facts here instead of going on a flame war here? What has Eut done to you?

umm, no there's not. Read the naval records instead of books written by oporunists who were miles away at the time and only seem to "remember" around election time. There is not a single credible report to the contrary. Put up or shut up and prove it now!

Ok-I'm punchung out. There was almost a chance of this thread having some meaning, but its turned into a week of yellow shit storms instead.

Of all the threads on this issue, this one had the least chance to have some meaning from the get-go...

Can't read it or comment on it unless you tell me who wrote it

The same guy who was invovled with the Swift boaters for "truth" Ho hum Read the naval records on pdf dillhole :headbang:

Some of those Swift Boaters served on his boat. I trust those men. As for his citations, they are questionable. The first 2 doctors he sought refused to sign the papers for his Purple Hearts because they knew an M-203 grenade would be a self inflicted wound.

I think this is untrue. Show me a source.

(The already-questionable book you've mentioned doesn't suffice).

Yeah, too bad those soldiers have selective reading capabilities. If only they'd gotten better grades, they could've read that what Kerry said was taken out of context and used against him by a desperate administration clinging to the last strands of whatever it is they have left in an attempt to stay alive.

Too bad.


Too bad Kerry cost the dems dearly by not clearing that little misunderstanding up immediately and instead acting like a spoiled elitist asshole.

Why should the other party bother doing anything if the Dems have kerry to lose another election for them .

say what you want..it would have been a decent joke...he blew it.

Then the asshole made it worse by not clearing it up like a human...he did his herman munster act and now you can add it to the list of quotes to be used whenever a democrat opens his mouth about national security...

fair or not thats the fucking reality.

And THIS is the political reality for Kerry ...

Quote:
"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country." - John Kerry, Legislative Proposals Relating to the War in Southeast Asia Thursday, April 22, 1971 United States Senate, Committee on Foreign Relations, Washington, D.C.

"And there is no reason that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the – of – the historical customs, religious customs, whether you like it or not ... Iraqis should be doing that." - John Kerry, "Face the Nation", December 4, 2005.


Mr. Kerry said: “You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”


Makes him a real attractive national candidate and a great spokesperson for the Democrats does'nt it ?:rolleyes:

Thats the political reality HE created for the democratic party thats been fighting hard to show they are tough on national security and that they are in support of our troops. Because you KNOW thats what you will be seeing .

What the fucks fair got to do with it ?

Just the sort of responses I would have expected from some on here.

At least someone had the good sense to record what the ignoble Mr. Kerry actually said:

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

No, I will not get over it. No, I don't give a shit how many times it's been posted, and no, I will not STFU. So sue me.

You know, I've seen this time and time again, and I have to wonder. Are his remarks being misinterpreted? Now, I don't know what Kerry meant, but looking at these, it seems just as likely that he's referring to ignorance leading the nation to be stuck in Iraq as the troops.

the republicans can insult a man who lost three limbs serving this country and no one seems to care, while Kerry says something that, because of a mistake similar to the one that gave us "one small step for man", he seemed to say that people who don't do particularly well in school are likely to get recruited into the military and end up in Iraq. (of course, he didn't mean to say that, something he's clarified several times. Apologizing for his mistaken comment seems to have just made a bunch of idiots jump up and shout "Oh, so you admit it!")

Everyone's known the swift boat guys were fucking liars, and anyone who says otherwise at this point is so lost in the delusion woven by this administration that they may never get out.

I only wish Kerry had responded to that shit in any way similarly to how he responded to this.

Second, are you saying that Kerry deliberately dropped a grenade next to himself to injure himself? I don't believe ANYONE who has any desire to be alive would inflict themselves deliberately with a grenade...

No - the situation is even more ridiculous that at first glance. 40mm grenades are not the cute little hand-helds you see in the movies, and they are 'projectile' launched.

We are expected to believe that Kerry deliberately fired one of these projectiles into a nearby terrain feature in order to injure himself.

Since the wounding seems to be consistent with a 'shrapnel' explosion, rather than a concussion, buckshot or 'chemical' (like flares) reaction - the most likely candidate is either High Explosive or High Explosive Dual Purpose ammunition. The High Explosive Dual Purpose is a 'standard item'... so presents the absolute most likely shell for the M203 to have fired - if the story is true.

The problem with the story is that it is totally unbelievable - HEDP ammo for M203 can punch through two inches of plate armour after half a kilometer of flight, and has a 'kill radius' of about five meters... but a high capacity for casualties at 130 meters.

If there had been ANY witnesses to such an incident, they would be casualties themselves, if not dead. It seems pretty unlikely that someone with even the most basic training with the weapons and ammunition, would attempt THIS method of fabricating an injury.

Too bad Kerry cost the dems dearly by not clearing that little misunderstanding up immediately and instead acting like a spoiled elitist asshole.

Why should the other party bother doing anything if the Dems have kerry to lose another election for them .

say what you want..it would have been a decent joke...he blew it.

Then the asshole made it worse by not clearing it up like a human...he did his herman munster act and now you can add it to the list of quotes to be used whenever a democrat opens his mouth about national security...

fair or not thats the fucking reality.

And THIS is the political reality for Kerry ...



Makes him a real attractive national candidate and a great spokesperson for the Democrats does'nt it ?:rolleyes:

Thats the political reality HE created for the democratic party thats been fighting hard to show they are tough on national security and that they are in support of our troops. Because you KNOW thats what you will be seeing .

What the fucks fair got to do with it ?

He hasn't created a damn thing. His opponents have manipulated his words like the heartless bastards they are, not caring if he was taken out of context or misquoted entirely, just so long as people think less of him. You're no better. Politicians shouldn't have to look over their back every two seconds to make sure they're not saying something that could be turned against them - it's the assholes that prey upon those that would speak frankly and honestly that need to feel ashamed.

ok-terrific !

ah, and O and A fan. I was having doubts about liking you again.

I think this is untrue. Show me a source.

(The already-questionable book you've mentioned doesn't suffice).



http://www.swiftvets.com/


a link to the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Unfit-Command-Veterans-Speak-Against/dp/0895260174

I wasn't there....they were ...you decide.


If someone is telling the truth as they lived it and you do not want to believe it , it is not a lie.

There is so much shit piled on this whole episode from pro Kerry and anti kerry its not worth getting a virus jusst going near it.

kerrys own actions from when he got out of the service to today are enough for me to dislike him .

The other shit...meh.

Kerry has said and done enough to show his true feelings about the american military to hang himself on the issue without the swift boaters help .

Eut the troops have spoken ,,,


http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20061101TroopsMessage.jpg

Little Green Footballs? Those racist pieces of shit? :rolleyes:

ah, and O and A fan. I was having doubts about liking you again.

That was the place to insert that line, without a doubt.

So-I'm confused-you do or dont like me ?

Kerry has said and done enough to show his true feelings about the american military to hang himself on the issue without the swift boaters help .

How so?

That was the place to insert that line, without a doubt.

So-I'm confused-you do or dont like me ?

I dunno - pass him a note in class and ask him to check yes or no.

You're the reason that multi-quote thing needs to go away.

why, becasue he called your boy toy out on his bullshit? Aren't you folks supposed to hate gay marriage? :cool: :eek:

why, becasue he called your boy toy out on his bullshit? Aren't you folks supposed to hate gay marriage? :cool: :eek:

They're not getting married, they just wanna fuck.

He hasn't created a damn thing. His opponents have manipulated his words like the heartless bastards they are, not caring if he was taken out of context or misquoted entirely, just so long as people think less of him. You're no better. Politicians shouldn't have to look over their back every two seconds to make sure they're not saying something that could be turned against them - it's the assholes that prey upon those that would speak frankly and honestly that need to feel ashamed.


Well DUH welcome to political reality.

They did not manipulate his words they quoted them exactly as he said them . Just like when Bush did his interview with Stephanopholos ...guy needs to change his name .."stay the course " got its definition changed. Hey they were BUSH"S own words right ?


All he should have done was tell the joke the way he intended and said he meant no insult to the troops..in fact " If I have insulted one american serviceman I am truly sorry " ...I would have done it...the first inkling I got of a brewing shitstorm..not only because it was the rigt thing to do BUT also because POLITICALY it was the right and the best thing to do...Plus I would have been on every TV show in the US shoving it up the republicans ass for trying to make me look baad...and I would have gotten sympathy . And I would have made a point for the Democrats and killed any counter the republicans could have tried. But he is truly an asshole .

He has proved yet again how he could lose to George Bush.

Eut's weak? News to me. Eut's got cojones of stone. He doesn't need a cheerleader, though I suspect he'd like one bouncing up and down on his lap. ;)

he's already got you sweetie:sniper:

http://www.swiftvets.com/

a link to the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Unfit-Command-Veterans-Speak-Against/dp/0895260174

I wasn't there....they were ...you decide.

If someone is telling the truth as they lived it and you do not want to believe it , it is not a lie.

There is so much shit piled on this whole episode from pro Kerry and anti kerry its not worth getting a virus jusst going near it.

kerrys own actions from when he got out of the service to today are enough for me to dislike him .

The other shit...meh.

Kerry has said and done enough to show his true feelings about the american military to hang himself on the issue without the swift boaters help .

I don't care if you like him. Truth is not determined by who we like.

I have already shown - this book was written in August 2004. The FULL Kerry medical and related service reports were released a year later. Thus, the book CANNOT have been written with full command of the facts.

Indeed - material from the reports released a year after the book, make parts of the book look either like deliberate lies, or very lax conjecture.

Not to mention, calling into question the honesty of many of those who made accusations against Kerry - when they gave him MORE than glowing reports at the time.

I wasn't there... they were... except, apparently, 30 years entirely changes the story they tell. One MUST wonder if there was a price to be paid.

Regarding what Kerry has done since leaving the military... American Soldiers are not perfect. A rape by American Soldiers doesn't become a 'good rape' just because they are wearing the American flag. Indeed - onw would have thought that patriots would follow Kerry's example and oppose the worst excesses of the American warmachine... ratehr than trying to excuse or ignore it.

Well DUH welcome to political reality.

They did not manipulate his words they quoted them exactly as he said them . Just like when Bush did his interview with Stephanopholos ...guy needs to change his name .."stay the course " got its definition changed. Hey they were BUSH"S own words right ?


All he should have done was tell the joke the way he intended and said he meant no insult to the troops..in fact " If I have insulted one american serviceman I am truly sorry " ...I would have done it...the first inkling I got of a brewing shitstorm..not only because it was the rigt thing to do BUT also because POLITICALY it was the right and the best thing to do...Plus I would have been on every TV show in the US shoving it up the republicans ass for trying to make me look baad...and I would have gotten sympathy . And I would have made a point for the Democrats and killed any counter the republicans could have tried. But he is truly an asshole .

He has proved yet again how he could lose to George Bush.

I know it's the way of politics. Doesn't mean the political victim is actually a bad person. Politics is shit - it consists of shit, it runs on shit, and is perpetuated by shit.

He didn't lose to Bush, he lost to Rove.

Little Green Footballs? Those racist pieces of shit? :rolleyes:

Little Green Footballs
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Little Green Footballs (LGF) (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/) is a principally political blog run by California web designer Charles Johnson. In the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks, Johnson transformed his blog's discussion of bicycle racing, programming, web design, and the occasional humorous news item into a very active discussion of the American War on Terror and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Although LGF is usually characterized as politically conservative (or sometimes alleged to be right wing[1]), prior to 9/11 its webmaster often expressed liberal political views and was critical of George W Bush.

For "promoting Israel and Zionism" and "presenting Israel's side of the conflict," LGF won the "Best Israel Advocacy Blog" award from the Jerusalem Post in 2005.[2] Gil Ronen, a reporter for Israel National News, has written:[3]

If anyone ever compiles a list of Internet sites that contribute to Israel’s public relations effort, [Charles] Johnson's site will probably come in first, far above the Israeli Foreign Ministry's site.
In the United States, LGF is perhaps best known for playing a key role in exposing the forged Killian documents about President Bush,[4][5] that preceded the resignation of CBS' Dan Rather. The site won the Washington Post's reader poll for Best International Blog in November 2004.[6] The site also played a large role in exposing the forged and altered photographs in the Adnan Hajj photographs controversy.[7]



racist ?? because they are Jews? Or ??? Why ....I just thought the photo sais a thousand words.....:)

I never heard of LGF being called racist before...they are a right wing web site ..or conservative..and I never read the shit...but racist ?

Now I gotta go read. Thanks


Cortney Fielding staff writer for the San Gabriel Valley Tribune (and the Pasadena Star News) reports that “while the students showed proper enthusiasm for Angelides by waving his signs and wooing and booing at the right places, the energy in the room clearly belonged to Kerry.”

He took the stage to roaring applause and left it only to be mobbed by students and reporters.

Kerry charmed the crowd with tales of surfing at Mission Beach and got laughs for a series of one-liners, including telling the crowd he had just returned from Texas, “Where the president used to live - now he lives in a state of denial.”

Kerry then told the students that if they were able to navigate the education system, they could get comfortable jobs - “If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq,” he said to a mixture of laughter and gasps.

Talk about speaking the stark truth to students who want more out of life. The education system in California is a mess, especially in L.A. County. Each day I pick my daughter up at school I see the recruiters leaving, smiling because they have snagged another kid who’s trapped by the system and sees no future other than enlisting. It shouldn’t be like this. A 50% drop out rate is unacceptable. What is the bottom line for these kids, a job at McDonald’s or Iraq. Kudos to Kerry for delivering a wake up call to the young voters at the rally (wingnuts are all wet on their claims).


Nazz the above is from Little green footballs.

I do support Eut here because the facts he has been stating have been backed up by the book Unfit for Command. All debate on that book in this thread has been attacking the author for being a conservative with an agenda. That's nothing more than ad hominem and attacking the messenger. It's a logical fallacy. What I haven't seen is anyone disputing the claims from that book on Kerry's purple hearts. No one has disputed the fact that Kerry had to see 3 seperate doctors before one would sign the papers for him to recieve a purple heart. No one has really answered how he got wounded by the VC from M-203 fragments when only he fired one during the engagement.

Believe me, it might seem from your PoV that I have a filter over my eyes. (Perhaps I do, but then so do you and 90% of the people in this thread) Regardless, there is enough evidence here for Eut to make his claims. I might add that Kerry has not sued the author. There might be a reason for this.

Funny, the official naval records mention none of this. The people on his boat mention none of this. And once again, the official naval records mention none of this. True, I know we should all listen to a swiftboater who wants to sell books over our own department oft he navy and DoD. After all, what good are they for? Seriously, there's your refuting of the rubbish in "unfit for command."

Wow Eut, you really bought the soundbite. you didn't even ask to see the transcript of the speech before you started turning red in the face I bet. And yet you keep clinging to the "liberatarian" label and actually expect people to believe you. You are what's wrong with US politics. When people like yourself co-opt other people's opinions of things, that you personally know only the most infinitecimal thing about, it hurts the process.

Please just stop and think before you swallow more soundbites. Prove to at least me that you aren't lying about your true political stripe. Until then you're just another blowhard jerk-off.

Nazz more from Little green footballs..

BOSTON (Reuters) - A Maine attorney who released information in 2000 about President George W. Bush’s drunken driving conviction was arrested on Tuesday after he dressed up as al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and waved a fake gun at traffic.

Police in South Portland, Maine, arrested Thomas Connolly, 49, of Scarborough, Maine, and charged him with criminal threatening. He was released on bail, local officials said.

Lt. Todd Bernard said the police department received calls about a man wearing Middle Eastern garb and a bin Laden mask and carrying fake dynamite standing along an interstate highway. When police arrived, they saw Connolly holding a gun.

“They ordered him to drop the weapon several times and he eventually complied,” Bernard said. It turned out the gun was fake, Bernard said.

In a phone interview, Connolly said he’d been trying to protest a planned change in local tax rules. “I didn’t expect to be arrested,” he said. “Obviously I touched a post-9/11 nerve.”

Days before the 2000 presidential election, Connolly released information about Bush’s 1976 drunken driving conviction.



TWO of the Australian men arrested in Yemen on terrorism charges are the sons of Abdul Rahim Ayub, the man who set up a Jemaah Islamiah cell here and fled after the Bali bombings.

The Herald can also reveal that the mother of the two brothers is an Australian-born woman called Rabiah Hutchison and is regarded by security agencies as possibly more radical than her former husband.

Ms Hutchison is in Yemen with her sons, Mohammed Ayub and Abdullah Ayub, and the Herald has been told that their tour group was joined by some of the wives of the men who were arrested on terrorism charges in Sydney one year ago.

The group - most of whom have been intensely monitored by ASIO for years - insist they went to Yemen to further their religious instruction.

But the two brothers - and a third man of Polish ancestry who became an Australian citizen in the 1980s and later converted to Islam - were arrested in a CIA-led operation on October 17, accused of being part of an al-Qaeda cell and planning to smuggle light arms to Somalia.

Australian consular officials, who have flown in from the Saudi capital, Riyadh, were scheduled to meet with the men overnight. The officials will also meet Yemeni authorities to talk about the circumstances behind the arrests, and what the formal charges are likely to be.

The Australians were arrested with five other men, including a Briton, a German and a Dane.

A Sydney lawyer, Adam Houda, who represents Mohammed and Abdullah Ayub and their mother, has described the allegations as ridiculous and has blamed Australia for alerting Yemeni authorities to their visit.



They seem to be just Conservative and have a bias towards Zionism or Jews..

I dont get the racist part ...can you explain ?

racist ?? because they are Jews? Or ??? Why ....I just thought the photo sais a thousand words.....:)

I never heard of LGF being called racist before...they are a right wing web site ..or conservative..and I never read the shit...but racist ?

Now I gotta go read. Thanks





Nazz the above is from Little green footballs.
Shhhh. Nazz has to say anyone who is for the War on Terrorism is a racist. He must be right, after all he is a Professor of English.

Some of those Swift Boaters served on his boat. I trust those men. As for his citations, they are questionable. The first 2 doctors he sought refused to sign the papers for his Purple Hearts because they knew an M-203 grenade would be a self inflicted wound.

Now I know you're just lying. Either you know you are lying and don't care, or you're just a vile liar. NONE served in his crew. Every single one of the men serving in his crew support his claims. Further, NAZZ showed you the refuting documents. Why so silent chum?

That was the place to insert that line, without a doubt.

So-I'm confused-you do or dont like me ?

Oh, you used to live in Brick, NJ. I have to like you by default.

Now I know you're just lying. Either you know you are lying and don't care, or you're just a vile liar. NONE served in his crew. Every single one of the men serving in his crew support his claims. Further, NAZZ showed you the refuting documents. Why so silent chum?

One of the sources of the book was a member of the crew. Why don't you go and read the book?

Can we dispense with the ad hominem. I know you and your liberal friends are just pissed off and have nothing real to go on, but come on.

I don't have the book in front of me right now as it is at my home and not my dorm, but I do know that one of the key sources of the book was a man who served on Kerry's boat. I believe it was the medical records from the wounds that found it was an M-203 grenade that caused the wound. The reports of the engagement shoed only Kerry fired such a weapon during the engagement. Thus, only he could've caused the wound he had suffered. That is a fact.

Also, what about the Doctors who wouldn't sign his Purple Heart Citation? Isn't there a reason for that?

Now I know you're just lying. Either you know you are lying and don't care, or you're just a vile liar. NONE served in his crew. Every single one of the men serving in his crew support his claims. Further, NAZZ showed you the refuting documents. Why so silent chum?


Kerry is irrelevent except maybe when he is making Democrats look bad ?


Just a guess.

Oh, you used to live in Brick, NJ. I have to like you by default.

Forever intertwined to the sounds of Bon Jovi. I can't imagine the level of torture that would be. Well, torture in the traditional definition - in the new, shrubbery definition, it wouldn't be torturous at all.

Senator John Kerry has made his 4-month combat tour in Vietnam the centerpiece of his bid for the Presidency. His campaign jets a handful of veterans around the country, and trots them out at public appearances to sing his praises. John Kerry wants us to believe that these men represent all those he calls his "band of brothers."


But most combat veterans who served with John Kerry in Vietnam see him in a very different light.
.


Touch the photo to see which Swift officers support John Kerry, or click it to read more

The purpose of this photo is to correct the misleading use of our
images -- against our will -- to further John Kerry's campaign.
.
Swift Vets and POWs for Truth has been formed to counter the false "war crimes" charges John Kerry repeatedly made against Vietnam veterans who served in our units and elsewhere, and to accurately portray Kerry's brief tour in Vietnam as a junior grade Lieutenant. We speak from personal experience -- our group includes men who served beside Kerry in combat as well as his commanders. Though we come from different backgrounds and hold varying political opinions, we agree on one thing: John Kerry misrepresented his record and ours in Vietnam and therefore exhibits serious flaws in character and lacks the potential to lead.



http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php

I'm sorry whats wrong with this source again ?


go ahead go read...tell me whats wrong with it I can take it .:D

Shhhh. Nazz has to say anyone who is for the War on Terrorism is a racist. He must be right, after all he is a Professor of English.

And you're a college student. This makes you a better authority?

And you're a college student. This makes you a better authority?

No, but being a professor of English doesn't make you an authority on politics or history. It makes you an authority on grammar.

racist ?? because they are Jews? Or ??? Why ....I just thought the photo sais a thousand words.....:)

I never heard of LGF being called racist before...they are a right wing web site ..or conservative..and I never read the shit...but racist ?

Now I gotta go read. Thanks

You should know better than to trust Wikipedia on political issues. That's where it's the most vulnerable.

You should know better than to trust Wikipedia on political issues. That's where it's the most vulnerable.

Why don't you go justify your accusations they are racist.

How are they racist? Because they support attacking terrorists? Or is it because they disagree with you?

I want you to back this one up please. Or are you going to libel the gentleman who has created that site?

Oh, you used to live in Brick, NJ. I have to like you by default.

Someone just told me Brick was just named safest city in the US this year, up from 3rd or so?

I miss it there. Its a great place to live.

Shhhh. Nazz has to say anyone who is for the War on Terrorism is a racist. He must be right, after all he is a Professor of English.You know, if you're going to make complaints in Moderation about other people flaming, you might want to watch the level of snark you put in your own posts.

As for my charge about Little Green Footballs, it's well substantiated by watchdog groups. Google is your friend.

You know, if you're going to make complaints in Moderation about other people flaming, you might want to watch the level of snark you put in your own posts.

As for my charge about Little Green Footballs, it's well substantiated by watchdog groups. Google is your friend.
The burden of proof is on your shoulders. I want YOU to go and back up your points. After all, you demand the same of Eut.

The burden of proof is on your shoulders. I want YOU to go and back up your points. After all, you demand the same of Eut.
Read this carefully--Kiss my pasty white ass.

If I thought there were a chance in hell that you'd actually read anything I posted, I'd do it. I'd go to the trouble to show you the racism that comes out of Charles Johnson's blog and community on practically a daily basis. But you won't. You'll explain it all away as rantings of partisan hacks, even when the words are coming straight from Johnson himself, because that's who you are--an apologist for all things Bush. So my reply stays the same--google is your friend. When you're intellectually curious enough to look at the backgrounds of the people you're championing, like Jerome Corsi or John O'Neill or Charles Johnson, then you'll benefit from learning about them on your own. But you'll have to make that journey on your own.

Or you can make the journey back to your La-Z-Boy and turn on da Bulls or whatever is on this week and just take what these people say at face value. Makes no difference to me.

One of the sources of the book was a member of the crew. Why don't you go and read the book?

Can we dispense with the ad hominem. I know you and your liberal friends are just pissed off and have nothing real to go on, but come on.

I don't have the book in front of me right now as it is at my home and not my dorm, but I do know that one of the key sources of the book was a man who served on Kerry's boat. I believe it was the medical records from the wounds that found it was an M-203 grenade that caused the wound. The reports of the engagement shoed only Kerry fired such a weapon during the engagement. Thus, only he could've caused the wound he had suffered. That is a fact.

Also, what about the Doctors who wouldn't sign his Purple Heart Citation? Isn't there a reason for that?


Pretty please?

Can I get this straight? Are you saying that leaving Yale and enlisting for four years of service in combat heavy situations in Vietnam, an early promotion to Captain, two purple hearts, a silver star and a bronze star prove that Kerry is a pussy? I'm just curious... He faked it all? He was just some pussy grunt who never did much of anything? Can you compare that to George Bush's military career, please? I'd like to see your take on the difference between the two. It will say something about your intelectual honesty.

I listen to conservative talk radio every day. That's because, aside from my feelings about this president and how this war is being fought I consider myself a conservative. For example, I think we need to massively cut down on entitlement programs, I'm for tough border security and am against blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants. I understand that our lives for a very long time are going to be dominated by a conflict between liberal democracy and conservative Islamic theocracy. I'm for a line item veto to contain the budget... all hallmarks of conservative ideological thought - though not neoconservative thought.

Anyhoo, what I'm also rabidly in favor of is intelectual honesty. Yesterday I was very pleasently surprised to hear Bill Handle, a right wing talk show host out here in Los Angeles on www.kfiam640.com who's program preceeds Rush Limbaugh's, stick up for a Kerry when a caller called in and accused Kerry of being unpatriotic and a sissy, essentially. Handle called the guy out and asked him when he served. The guy said he hadn't and handle said he had no right to question the patriotism of a man with Kerry's service record and then compared it to Bush's abysmal record of service during Vietnam. He essentially said, "I don't like his politics and wouldn't vote for him but I will not impugn his reputation as a patriotic and self sacrificing American. Someone who has never been underfire for their contry has no right to say that about someone who volunteered for it."

What I'm interested in is whether or not you are capable of that same level of intellectual honesty because, swift boaters aside, George Bush was the pussy, not Kerry.

Pretty please?

Can I get this straight? Are you saying that leaving Yale and enlisting for four years of service in combat heavy situations in Vietnam, an early promotion to Captain, two purple hearts, a silver star and a bronze star prove that Kerry is a pussy? I'm just curious... He faked it all? He was just some pussy grunt who never did much of anything? Can you compare that to George Bush's military career, please? I'd like to see your take on the difference between the two. It will say something about your intelectual honesty.
If you want some honesty, here it comes.

Kerry's decision to go OCS was admirable (he never enlisted, he went OCS). He never made Captain. He left as an O-3 Lieutenant. Captain is an O-6 rank and requires a minimum of 20 years service (more likely 25). He did get an early promotion to O-3 though. He got there in 2 years where it normally takes 3 years. He was promoted to O-3 after his tour of duty aboard an ASW FF in the Pacific. By all accounts, he performed his duties and served with honor during this time. He was an effective JO,or at least his CO believed so during this time. As a result he was selected for EP on his Fitreps and those above him approved that recommendation.

When it came to his service on the Swift Boats, he was less than honorable. He recieved 2 purple hearts for self inflicted wounds. I won't say he wounded himself intentionally, but he then did collect purple hearts on them. His crew reported he wounded himself with the M-203 because he used it improperly. That is understandable since the Swifties were poorly trained when it came to infantry weapons. Afterall, Kerry was trained to be a SWO, not an infantryman. His 3rd purple heart was awareded for recieving cuts. That wasn't self inflicted. It was just too minor to really warrant one. The swifties point out there were some anti-war doctors who would sign citations to get people out of the war zone for their 3rd purple heart. A man on the swift boat that struck the mine on that mission broke his leg from the mine. He didn't recieve a purple heart for it.

I listen to conservative talk radio every day. That's because, aside from my feelings about this president and how this war is being fought I consider myself a conservative. For example, I think we need to massively cut down on entitlement programs, I'm for tough border security and am against blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants. I understand that our lives for a very long time are going to be dominated by a conflict between liberal democracy and conservative Islamic theocracy. I'm for a line item veto to contain the budget... all hallmarks of conservative ideological thought - though not neoconservative thought.
I can agree with you there. I don't see myself as a neoconservative. Afterall, I am left-moderate on most social issues and don't like the government to rule on morality in most cases.

Anyhoo, what I'm also rabidly in favor of is intelectual honesty. Yesterday I was very pleasently surprised to hear Bill Handle, a right wing talk show host out here in Los Angeles on www.kfiam640.com who's program preceeds Rush Limbaugh's, stick up for a Kerry when a caller called in and accused Kerry of being unpatriotic and a sissy, essentially. Handle called the guy out and asked him when he served. The guy said he hadn't and handle said he had no right to question the patriotism of a man with Kerry's service record and then compared it to Bush's abysmal record of service during Vietnam. He essentially said, "I don't like his politics and wouldn't vote for him but I will not impugn his reputation as a patriotic and self sacrificing American. Someone who has never been underfire for their contry has no right to say that about someone who volunteered for it."

What I'm interested in is whether or not you are capable of that same level of intellectual honesty because, swift boaters aside, George Bush was the pussy, not Kerry.

As for Bush, you are right. His actions weren't the most honorable. He was better than Clinton, but still not too honorable. I wouldn't call him a draft dodger, but I will say he had the opportunity to volunteer for active duty and passed it up. But, this thread is about Kerry's comments and history, not President Bush's history.

Bush certainly isn't an example of honor, but Kerry is an example of dishonor. He sold out those who he served with and told lies about them for political gain. That is distasteful.

The FBI seems to think LittleGreenFootballs is racist;

The facts: one reader posted one comment that could be interpreted as a threat against Mr. Hooper in particular (not against “Muslims”), and this comment was deleted soon after it was posted. The FBI contacted me months after the comment had been deleted, at the urging of CAIR. The FBI also contacted me (again on CAIR’s urging) about harassing emails sent with our “email this article” feature — and again these emails were sent directly to Mr. Hooper in particular, not to “Muslims.” Both of these incidents were handled promptly and with integrity on our side.

Thats from his own spinned words too.

the would-be assassin, Rayra, is still a member in good standing of the LGF "community." Why have you not banned him, Charles? Or is threatening to assassinate a Muslim-American leader not sufficient grounds for banning? Well, OK since Charles loves to engage in pilpul (look that one up in your Jewish dictionary, Charles), Rayra didn't say HE would kill Ibrahim Hooper, he just expressed a wish someone ELSE would do the job for him.

The guy who threatened Hooper wasn't even banned...

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2006/09/11/charles-johnson-refuses-to-reveal-threat-against-cairs-hooper/

It's not just the single-mindedness that ruined the site. Topic-specific blogs are often more interesting than general interest weblogs like mine. And Charles has gotten no small amount of traffic for his efforts; In the community of webloggers who write primarily about politics and conflict, there has been plenty of attention focused on LGF. The problem is that there is no discussion.

That there could be a legitimate argument on the other side is never discussed. People with differing opinions are demonized. The worst, most egregious affronts to decency and civil discourse on the site are the comments, which range from biased to unabashedly racist.

http://www.dashes.com/anil/2002/08/21/little_green_mo
from Anil Dash, VP of the writing company Six Apart.

The FBI, according to Hooper, recently investigated several threats of physical harm against Muslims posted by Little Green Footballs readers.

Johnson acknowledges the investigation but says Hooper's organization initiated the complaints to try to stifle free speech on his blog.

Again about the threat to Mr. Hooper, Johnson's pushback is that the post only threatening Hooper, not all muslims, but seeing as how Hooper is the leader of a Muslim representation group, I find that rebuttal inane.

A few helpful google searches:
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22arab+animals%22+site%3Alittlegreenfootballs.com&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

http://www.google.com.au/search?hs=2N1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22filthy+arabs%22+site%3Alittlegreenfootballs.com&btnG=Search&meta=

Spare us. I listened directly to what Mr.Kerry said. It looks like he was ad-libbing a bit and unfortuately, exposed himself for the mealy-mouthed fraud he is.
It was an attempted low-blow that backfired and kicked this sullen douche-bag right in his own balls.

Dont pretend for a moment that "intelligent" people understand what he truly meant- he spoke quite plainly.

Besides- all the ones that didnt "make themselves smart" already wound up in Iraq.

Remember- he voted for the war after voting against it. And he'd vote for it again. Or something.

Even the psuedo intellectuals cant keep up with this fake,phoney fraud.

When did you start drinking the Kool Aid?

Seriously? Partisan hackery doesn't change the truth of what Kerry's joke meant, in context.

One of the sources of the book was a member of the crew. Why don't you go and read the book?

Can we dispense with the ad hominem. I know you and your liberal friends are just pissed off and have nothing real to go on, but come on.

I don't have the book in front of me right now as it is at my home and not my dorm, but I do know that one of the key sources of the book was a man who served on Kerry's boat. I believe it was the medical records from the wounds that found it was an M-203 grenade that caused the wound. The reports of the engagement shoed only Kerry fired such a weapon during the engagement. Thus, only he could've caused the wound he had suffered. That is a fact.

Also, what about the Doctors who wouldn't sign his Purple Heart Citation? Isn't there a reason for that?


You still haven't presented a valid source.

I will not accept a book that appeared BEFORE the release of the records, as valid. Especially since the testimony revealed IN the records directly contradicts testimony later given by the SAME people, during an election campaign, and as material in the same mentioned book.

Which Purple Heart is it you believe was 'earned' in this fashion?

The only one I recall reading as possible result of 'grenade' damage, has clear witness testimony that it was enemy-fired incoming RPG fire.

When it came to his service on the Swift Boats, he was less than honorable. He recieved 2 purple hearts for self inflicted wounds. I won't say he wounded himself intentionally, but he then did collect purple hearts on them. His crew reported he wounded himself with the M-203 because he used it improperly. That is understandable since the Swifties were poorly trained when it came to infantry weapons. Afterall, Kerry was trained to be a SWO, not an infantryman. His 3rd purple heart was awareded for recieving cuts. That wasn't self inflicted.

Propaganda. Indeed, this veers dangerously close to tinfoil hat conspiracy-theory stuff.

You have yet to provide any proof for any of this. Until you do, this should be ignored as the vitriolic ravings of rightwing extremists.

Here is a supposed eye-witness account:
http://www.swiftvets.com/article.php?story=20040828074944939

However, this website claims that William L. Schachte, Jr was not even on the boat at the time.
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerrypurpleheart1.htm#PURPLE1

Eventually, you are forced to take someone on their word, and assume the other is lying.

Regardless of the truth of any allegations, Kerry's reputation has been tarnished. How this affects the Democratic party in the near future remains to be seen. One thing I have noted about the debate is that many people will believe what they wish to believe rather than what the information is presenting to them.

I know I missed this a few pages back, but I've been on the road and sleep has been more precious than current events.

Would one of the Kerry defenders point out the alleged humor in the joke? It's even more tasteless than 'dead babie' jokes. Who was supposed to laugh?

I know I missed this a few pages back, but I've been on the road and sleep has been more precious than current events.

Would one of the Kerry defenders point out the alleged humor in the joke? It's even more tasteless than 'dead babie' jokes. Who was supposed to laugh?

Drop the faux outrage. You're not that dense.

For clarification--you're not dense at all.

Claims of anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment
Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council of American Islamic Relations called Little Green Footballs "a vicious, anti-Muslim hate site" and claimed the FBI has "investigated several threats of physical harm against Muslims posted by Little Green Footballs readers". [20] Blogger Eric Boehlert has claimed that LGF is "concerned with highlighting that most of the MSM [Mainstream Media] reporting from Iraq and the Middle East is biased in favor of Islamic terrorists" and that it "oozes overt bias for Arabs and journalists (and most of all, Arab journalists)"[21] Antonia Zerbisias in the Toronto Star described LGF as a "virulently anti-Muslim/Arab website". [22] RJ Smith, writing in Los Angeles Magazine, has alleged that LGF is a "dysfunctional mix of beautiful photos Johnson takes on coastal bike rides and constitutionally protected hate speech" which "believes all Muslims are terrorists until proven innocent." [23]


[edit] Accusations of bias
Fans see Little Green Footballs as an alternative media outlet which provides a counterweight to alleged anti-American, anti-Semitic, anti-Conservative bias of mainstream media outlets such as Reuters - "al-Reuters" in LGF slang.[citation needed]

Critics point to the hyperbolic language, references to violence against Arabs, Muslims, and liberals and ethnic slurs employed by some commenters and charge the webmaster with encouraging groupthink, jingoism, anti-Arabism and "Islamophobia".[1] [2] Supporters argue that using slurs is acceptable, given "there is a fine tradition of dehumanizing the enemy in our foreign wars". [3]

Fans of the site claim Johnson has never personally used ethnic slurs on the site and has implemented a comment-submission filter which replaces offensive terms (e.g., "raghead") with innocuous descriptors (e.g., "Arab") [4]. Johnson also runs an altered version of the Serenity Prayer in the comments section urging posters to think before posting.

LGF posters argue that those who accuse the site's commenters of religious and ethnic bigotry make such accusations in an attempt to police or censor opinion by characterizing any criticism of Islam or Muslims as pathological and "Islamophobic". [5]


Johson is both loved and hated I googled him ..cant find more than his disdain for Islamic types.... that IMO is not more or less than the average idiot with a blog.

The more I read the more I find him bordreline racist to offensive. But I have to admit I have seen much worse...from Limbugh et al.

I know I missed this a few pages back, but I've been on the road and sleep has been more precious than current events.

Would one of the Kerry defenders point out the alleged humor in the joke? It's even more tasteless than 'dead babie' jokes. Who was supposed to laugh?

Frankly, the origional text of the joke, while hardly hillarious, wasn't tasteless in the least.

But the right wing spin machines spin on.

Drop the faux outrage. You're not that dense.

For clarification--you're not dense at all.

I'm a little on the serious side. I didn't see the context in which it was delivered and I haven't seen a lot of the media lately. Out of context, it is certainly a statement to which much objection can be taken. At least, dead baby jokes are funny. In a guilty sort of way, that is.

*joke time*
# What is funnier than a dead baby?
A dead baby in a clown costume.

# What is the difference between a baby and a onion?
No one cries when you chop up the baby.

# What is the difference between a dead baby and a water melon?
One's fun to hit with a sledge hammer, the other one's a water melon.

# What is the difference between a baby and a dart-board?
Dart-boards don't bleed.

# What is the difference between a dead baby and a water melon?
One's fun to hit with a sledge hammer, the other one's a water melon.


Thats a sig.

LGF anti sites....for anyone who still cares.
http://www.catalyzerjournal.com/cnews/newsid/EEplVplFklvpGXvPtN.php
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/09/late-nite-fdl-what-lies-beneath/
http://thegreatsociety.blogsome.com/right-wing-racists/lgf


comic relief

http://www.drmenlo.com/lgfquiz/

I'm a little on the serious side. I didn't see the context in which it was delivered and I haven't seen a lot of the media lately. Out of context, it is certainly a statement to which much objection can be taken. At least, dead baby jokes are funny. In a guilty sort of way, that is.

*joke time*
# What is funnier than a dead baby?
A dead baby in a clown costume.

# What is the difference between a baby and a onion?
No one cries when you chop up the baby.

# What is the difference between a dead baby and a water melon?
One's fun to hit with a sledge hammer, the other one's a water melon.

# What is the difference between a baby and a dart-board?
Dart-boards don't bleed.Here you go. (http://www.johnkerry.com/multimedia/[/url) Video of the speech.

Thats a sig.

LGF anti sites....for anyone who still cares.
http://www.catalyzerjournal.com/cnews/newsid/EEplVplFklvpGXvPtN.php
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/09/late-nite-fdl-what-lies-beneath/
http://thegreatsociety.blogsome.com/right-wing-racists/lgf


comic relief

http://www.drmenlo.com/lgfquiz/

You never cease to amaze me, and I mean that as a compliment. Well done. Now if only IDF would follow your lead.

When did you start drinking the Kool Aid?

Seriously? Partisan hackery doesn't change the truth of what Kerry's joke meant, in context.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perhaps he just forgot to be noo-aaaunced enough. Heh!

Here you go. (http://www.johnkerry.com/multimedia/[/url) Video of the speech.

Looks like he apologized. If that's widely reported, it looks like the end of the issue -- silly issue that it was.

Now, if he'd just release his service records...as was promised. Nah, no sense beating a dead horse. He just doesn't know it yet.

Propaganda. Indeed, this veers dangerously close to tinfoil hat conspiracy-theory stuff.

You have yet to provide any proof for any of this. Until you do, this should be ignored as the vitriolic ravings of rightwing extremists.

The word of those who served under, above, and with him is very damning. Please show me where the records directly contradict with my sources.

That book is fact. If it were libelous, Kerry would've filed suit against Mr. O'Neill. He has not down so for reasons.

Most of the people who have served with Kerry claim this is true. Please stopping screaming " right wing conspiracy." You sound like Hillary Clinton when you do that.

Really, Eut. You are certainly smart enough to realize Kerry was speaking specifically about Dubya, not the troops. I can see how the comment might not be really clear, but it took little explanation to see the way it was meant.

The word of those who served under, above, and with him is very damning. Please show me where the records directly contradict with my sources.

That book is fact. If it were libelous, Kerry would've filed suit against Mr. O'Neill. He has not down so for reasons.

Most of the people who have served with Kerry claim this is true. Please stopping screaming " right wing conspiracy." You sound like Hillary Clinton when you do that.

People say that a lot, but what they fail to realize is that it's damn near impossible to prove libel if you're a public figure. If you're a private individual, it's a different matter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perhaps he just forgot to be noo-aaaunced enough. Heh!

As always, your arguments demonstrate your mastery of intellectual dishonesty.

Perhaps you ought to make a rational and well reasoned response? I hate to suggest such a thing, but since all you have to respond with right now is "Spin, spin, spin" (when you are, in fact, spinning yourself), I have some trouble taking you seriously.

The FBI seems to think LittleGreenFootballs is racist;





Please learn some reasoning skills. People not employed by a blog posting comments =/= the author of the blog. Saying that because some people who posts there are racists that the blog itself is racist shows either intellectual dishonesty or ignorance on your part. (I'll guess the first.)

That would be like saying NS is a racist site because there are people who have made racist posts here. Now if Max Barry were doing it, then it would be a different thing.

Hell, check out the Yahoo message boards. Those are not really moderated and every other post on there is racist. It doesn't mean Yahoo is a racist organization. This is pretty much the way the critics of LGF are trying to brand it racist. It is a flawed reasoning.

People say that a lot, but what they fail to realize is that it's damn near impossible to prove libel if you're a public figure. If you're a private individual, it's a different matter.

There is something serious wrong when only 3 officers of that squadron support Kerry. I think it is a telltale sign of a dishonorable Naval Officer when most of your colleagues are against you. The Navy is very much a brotherhood. Officers form close relationships with their colleagues. Chiefs form close relationships with the other Chiefs and its the same for the rest of the enlisted.

Kerry's lies in front of Congress were horrible. He threw his men under the rug for political gain and has told lies about his service like his Christmas in Cambodia. When you have eye-witnesses discrediting Kerry, I have to go with them.

I don't believe Kerry intended to wound himself during either of the incidents. As a SWO trained to serve on tin cans, he just wasn't properly trained to use infantry weapons and as a result accidentally wounded himself with his M-203. His dishonorable actions in the first 2 purple hearts was accepting them knowing full well his poor usage of his weapons caused it.

The 3rd wound was caused by the enemy, but sailors who were more wounded than he was didn't recieve purple hearts. Kerry was able to find doctors willing to sign away the papers for citations to allow him to go home since it was #3 for him.

The word of those who served under, above, and with him is very damning. Please show me where the records directly contradict with my sources.

That book is fact. If it were libelous, Kerry would've filed suit against Mr. O'Neill. He has not down so for reasons.

Most of the people who have served with Kerry claim this is true. Please stopping screaming " right wing conspiracy." You sound like Hillary Clinton when you do that.
This isn't the argument I thought I'd see, but I'll put in my two cents. Kerry promised on Meet The Press, a couple months after the election in 2004, to release his service record. So far, he hasn't made good on that promise. Why? Who knows. Would the record condemn him? Again, who knows. Why did he make the promise? It's all politics, I'm sure.

This isn't the argument I thought I'd see, but I'll put in my two cents. Kerry promised on Meet The Press, a couple months after the election in 2004, to release his service record. So far, he hasn't made good on that promise. Why? Who knows. Would the record condemn him? Again, who knows. Why did he make the promise? It's all politics, I'm sure.

Actually, Kerry did sign Form 180 to authorize the DOD to release his records. June 2005.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/07/kerry_allows_navy_release_of_military_medical_records/

Prior to that, he selectively released them on his website (iirc).

EDIT: No new substantive information, which begs the question, Why the Hell didn't he do it earlier ?

Actually, Kerry did sign Form 180 to authorize the DOD to release his records. June 2005.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/07/kerry_allows_navy_release_of_military_medical_records/

Prior to that, he selectively released them on his website (iirc).I commend him for releasing the data. But, that article still states that his CO said the first wound (which came from the M-203) was nothing more than a scratch. They point out that there is no indication of where the 3rd came from and there is no AAR (which is required after combat.)

They do point out he recieved good Fitreps. Fitreps aren't the best judge. THere are many commands in the Navy even today where they allow officers to fill in their own Fitreps. Their CO still has to approve what is in there though. Besides, Fitreps are VERY brief. I have filled them out for those under me in my NROTC Battalion. About 5/6 of the 2 page Fit Rep are general information and marking where the individual falls on a scale from 1-5. This includes stuff like how they meet grooming or PT standards etc. There is a comments section on the back that is quite small. They are usually general comments.

At the bottom of the 2nd page, there are 5 boxes for final evaluation. The cgiuces are Significant Problems, Progressing, Promotable, Must Promote,and Early Promote. Given his early promotion from O-2 to O-3, I will assume he got an EP from his first CO aboard the FF.

I have filled these Fitreps out before and can tell you they don't really tell you much. The only thing that really tells you anything is what is checked in at the last box.

Actually, Kerry did sign Form 180 to authorize the DOD to release his records. June 2005.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/07/kerry_allows_navy_release_of_military_medical_records/

Prior to that, he selectively released them on his website (iirc).

EDIT: No new substantive information, which begs the question, Why the Hell didn't he do it earlier ?
You're right. He made the promise on Jan 30, 2005 and finally executed it in June. I lost interest sometime after the snow melted.

Christ, I've just gone and done a day's work, and this is still going?

Christ, I've just gone and done a day's work, and this is still going?

Well, it's slowed down a lot. ;)

Well, it's slowed down a lot. ;)

Sorry to say it but from a quick scan this one seems to have descended to mud slinging. Think I'll bow out thanks

I commend him for releasing the data. But, that article still states that his CO said the first wound (which came from the M-203) was nothing more than a scratch. They point out that there is no indication of where the 3rd came from and there is no AAR (which is required after combat.)

They do point out he recieved good Fitreps. Fitreps aren't the best judge. THere are many commands in the Navy even today where they allow officers to fill in their own Fitreps. Their CO still has to approve what is in there though. Besides, Fitreps are VERY brief. I have filled them out for those under me in my NROTC Battalion. About 5/6 of the 2 page Fit Rep are general information and marking where the individual falls on a scale from 1-5. This includes stuff like how they meet grooming or PT standards etc. There is a comments section on the back that is quite small. They are usually general comments.

At the bottom of the 2nd page, there are 5 boxes for final evaluation. The cgiuces are Significant Problems, Progressing, Promotable, Must Promote,and Early Promote. Given his early promotion from O-2 to O-3, I will assume he got an EP from his first CO aboard the FF.

I have filled these Fitreps out before and can tell you they don't really tell you much. The only thing that really tells you anything is what is checked in at the last box.


I was reading an article on the British army ( Military.com ) and they had a " comments section ..one of the Brits " comments ' read " I fear some poor villiage has been deprived of an idiot " .

There were some awsome throw away comments like that ..the british were the most biting and dry.

Just a little aside before the mud gets back to flying.

Please learn some reasoning skills. People not employed by a blog posting comments =/= the author of the blog. Saying that because some people who posts there are racists that the blog itself is racist shows either intellectual dishonesty or ignorance on your part. (I'll guess the first.)

That would be like saying NS is a racist site because there are people who have made racist posts here. Now if Max Barry were doing it, then it would be a different thing.

Hell, check out the Yahoo message boards. Those are not really moderated and every other post on there is racist. It doesn't mean Yahoo is a racist organization. This is pretty much the way the critics of LGF are trying to brand it racist. It is a flawed reasoning.

Not when the vast, vast majority of the "Lizards" are violently racist, and that Charles Johnson not only tolerates, but revels in their ilk. If the site had a few racists on it, your point would be very valid, but it isn't just a vocal minority, its a vast majority. If your posts are an attracting flame for a huge crowd of racist moths, its fair to assume that your posts are racist, he might not be explicitly racist or use racial slurs, but he is a racist all the same.

Conservative websites attract conservatives, liberal websites attract liberals, racist websites attract racists. If LGF was truly a non-racist website, you'd think the racist "lizards" would disagree with Charles Johnson more, No?

the republicans can insult a man who lost three limbs serving this country and no one seems to care...
Yeah, but that guy's probably faking it y'know?
Cause according to IDF, you can't get seriously injured from a grenade.

I was reading an article on the British army ( Military.com ) and they had a " comments section ..one of the Brits " comments ' read " I fear some poor villiage has been deprived of an idiot " .

There were some awsome throw away comments like that ..the british were the most biting and dry.

Just a little aside before the mud gets back to flying.

That's not really one that has been used. There is an e-mail going around with a list of "comments used in evals." I saw the same list in high school. The only difference is that it was "comments from report cards." It's still a funny list though. I have 2 great people under me so I had to write nice Fitreps for them.

Yeah, but that guy's probably faking it y'know?
Cause according to IDF, you can't get seriously injured from a grenade.

You really didn't read what I wrote. It is a fact that most grenade wounds are relatively minor (especially compared to gunshot wounds). Grenades are best used in closed confines. (like tossing them into a room).

In Kerry's case, his own CO said it was only a scratch and the shrapnel was likely from an M-203.

Not when the vast, vast majority of the "Lizards" are violently racist, and that Charles Johnson not only tolerates, but revels in their ilk. If the site had a few racists on it, your point would be very valid, but it isn't just a vocal minority, its a vast majority. If your posts are an attracting flame for a huge crowd of racist moths, its fair to assume that your posts are racist, he might not be explicitly racist or use racial slurs, but he is a racist all the same.

Conservative websites attract conservatives, liberal websites attract liberals, racist websites attract racists. If LGF was truly a non-racist website, you'd think the racist "lizards" would disagree with Charles Johnson more, No?

Mr. Johnson has a "no moderation" policy. That means that if leftists wanted to spout comments on there they could. Mr. Johnson can't be painted with the same brush of those who comment on his blogs. He doesn't control his posters.

That is like blaming Max Barry for the stuff that posters like FWS used to put on these boards.

LGF is not a racist website. I want you to pinpoint racist comments from Mr. Johnson, not from those who comment under his blogs. You have no valid argument so you have done nothing more than bash him for what others do. He is NOT responsible for the conduct of idiots who comment. He is only responsible for his own blog posts, which are far from racist.

You have no ground to stand on in this argument.

One of the sources of the book was a member of the crew. Why don't you go and read the book?

Can we dispense with the ad hominem. I know you and your liberal friends are just pissed off and have nothing real to go on, but come on.

I don't have the book in front of me right now as it is at my home and not my dorm, but I do know that one of the key sources of the book was a man who served on Kerry's boat. I believe it was the medical records from the wounds that found it was an M-203 grenade that caused the wound. The reports of the engagement shoed only Kerry fired such a weapon during the engagement. Thus, only he could've caused the wound he had suffered. That is a fact.

Also, what about the Doctors who wouldn't sign his Purple Heart Citation? Isn't there a reason for that?

Seriously, the guy wasn't even on the same boat. Get over yourself or find a concurring source to go along with your partisan hackery. Don't throw ad hominem around like you even know what it means. The whole doctors wouldn't sign his citation is from your supid book. GO READ THE OFFICIAL NAVY RECORDS ON PDF and then talk , not some election year hack trying to sell books.

Mr. Johnson has a "no moderation" policy. That means that if leftists wanted to spout comments on there they could. Mr. Johnson can't be painted with the same brush of those who comment on his blogs. He doesn't control his posters.
Yes, he can. If I made a speech about the black race, and the entire Detroit chapter of the KKK agreed with everything I had to say, its fair to assume that what I said was racist, No?
If I made a blog about Jews, and Adolf Hitler, Hassan Nasrallah, Ahmadinejad, and Occeandrive all agreed with what I had to say, its fair to assume what I said was anti-Semetic, No?
If I wrote an essay on economics, and a bunch of communists were lavishly praising the theories it contained, its safe to assume that the essay had a leftist slant to it, yes?

That is like blaming Max Barry for the stuff that posters like FWS used to put on these boards.
Not really, because Max doesn't post stuff on this forum. He has a blog which typically has leftist stuff on it, corporate subjugation and all that. Now if someone agrees with the leftist stuff he posts, its safe to assume that they're leftist, No?

LGF is not a racist website. I want you to pinpoint racist comments from Mr. Johnson, not from those who comment under his blogs. You have no valid argument so you have done nothing more than bash him for what others do. He is NOT responsible for the conduct of idiots who comment. He is only responsible for his own blog posts, which are far from racist.
The reason he doesn't spout racist ilk is so he doesn't get attacked en masse every moderate on the internet, kind of like how racists like NY Nordland call themselves "cultural preservationists". Political Correctness has made outward racism so unpopular that engaging in it would cause one to loose all credibility, just because Johnson doesn't openly spout racism doesn't mean he isn't a racist.

:mp5: Seriously, the guy wasn't even on the same boat. Get over yourself or find a concurring source to go along with your partisan hackery. Don't throw ad hominem around like you even know what it means. The whole doctors wouldn't sign his citation is from your supid book. GO READ THE OFFICIAL NAVY RECORDS ON PDF and then talk , not some election year hack trying to sell books.

Liberal, ha the assuptions you brilliant engineers make. Anyhow, I'm a registered Republican and Marine Corp CO. I've spent more time in the line of fire than you have spent in the lab. I take special exeption to pukes lying about others' service. Especially people like you who use a single source, of which you're ad-libbing, as the "holy grail." Seriously, us "the google" and get some more information from a multitude of sources. Your sarguments amount to "nuh uh, but this books says" over and over again. We don't buy your bullshit and it's apparent you've never spent any time in the military. You have no idea how citations for awards go and really have no basis for making the claims you do. With the exception of course that you read them in a boom by a guy who happened to be on the same side of the world as Kerry during nam. Whoohoo, I guess you win. :mp5:

Seriously, the guy wasn't even on the same boat. Get over yourself or find a concurring source to go along with your partisan hackery. Don't throw ad hominem around like you even know what it means. The whole doctors wouldn't sign his citation is from your supid book. GO READ THE OFFICIAL NAVY RECORDS ON PDF and then talk , not some election year hack trying to sell books.

Funny thing is most of the people in his squadron on public record were not trying to sell books.

The official Navy records do not refute the points on him looking for different doctors. Many people from that squadron report that. I think they are reputable people and you have shown me no reason why those men shouldn't be trusted. After all, they weren't recieving a cut of the book.

The Navy records also show there was no AAR for the 2nd purple heart. An AAR would be required if there was combat. The 1st also doesn't dispute the fact it was from an M-203. His own CO said it was just a scratch too.

One of the primary sources of the book was a member of Kerry's crew. I forgot which boat he served on with him (and the book isn't with me so I can't look it up right now). The fact is that no one has even tried to refute the legitimate points. All they have done is try to discredit the author, but that doesn't mean a thing when his sources are still legitimate.

Snip

Show me actual racist things he has written. Not what people commenting posted, what HE posted.

Oh, you can't do that.

You have seriously flawed logic here. Please get a sense of reasoning here.

Show me actual racist things he has written. Not what people commenting posted, what HE posted.

Oh, you can't do that.

You have seriously flawed logic here. Please get a sense of reasoning here.

I already told you. Thanks to PC, he can't post obviously racist shit, if he did he would lose all credibility and his blog would be lynched by the internet public. Just because he doesn't pubicly cry out that he is racist, does not necessarily mean that he isn't racist.

What I did say is that a huge multitude of obvious racists agree with and revel in what he posts on
that site.

What your saying, is that because he doesn't obviously shout out that he hates all members of race X, he can't possibly be racist whatsoever. That is an absurdly simplistic view of racism and racists, by that definition most members of the klan are not racist. A person can be racist simply by holding racist thoughts in their mind. And before you attack me with that thoughtcrime meme, I never said racism is a crime, don't even start.

I already told you. Thanks to PC, he can't post obviously racist shit, if he did he would lose all credibility and his blog would be lynched by the internet public. Just because he doesn't pubicly cry out that he is racist, does not necessarily mean that he isn't racist.

What I did say is that a huge multitude of obvious racists agree with and revel in what he posts on that site.

In other words, you can't find anything so you are just going to shit in your hand and throw it at him.

In other words, you can't find anything so you are just going to shit in your hand and throw it at him.

and your going to ignore my argument and equate me with a chimpanzee; who is using flawed reasoning here?

and your going to ignore my argument and equate me with a chimpanzee; who is using flawed reasoning here?

I asked for examples and you failed to give them.

For you to claim the author is a racist, you will need examples. I gave you that task and you failed to accomplish it. I think the discussion on LGF is done, unless you have examples that is.

Racist readers =/= racist site. By your logic, then Yahoo is a racist site. Just check their message boards.

http://www.ingriddijkers.com/images/re_dancing_fool_JoAnn_Hulce.JPG

I asked for examples and you failed to give them.

For you to claim the author is a racist, you will need examples. I gave you that task and you failed to accomplish it. I think the discussion on LGF is done, unless you have examples that is.

Racist readers =/= racist site. By your logic, then Yahoo is a racist site. Just check their message boards.

Now your just making strawmen, I said that racists agree with the shit he says, ergo it is safe to assume that what he says is attractive to racists, no? and seeing how humans are attracted to viewpoints similar to their own, it is safe to assume that what he says is racist, no?


By your logic most members of the KKK are not racist, because they don't openly say so.

I don't recall yahoo posting constant articles about one race, and then having thousands of people storm in saying "Speak the truth brother! kill those @@RACE@@"

I agree with you, this debate is over, I'm through arguing with a brick wall.

Now your just making strawmen, I said that racists agree with the shit he says, ergo it is safe to assume that what he says is attractive to racists, no? and seeing how humans are attracted to viewpoints similar to their own, it is safe to assume that what he says is racist, no?


By your logic most members of the KKK are not racist, because they don't openly say so.

I don't recall yahoo posting constant articles about one race, and then having thousands of people storm in saying "Speak the truth brother! kill those @@RACE@@"
Really?
Yahoo Message Board (http://post.news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=NEWS&action=l&ft=1&board=37138459&sid=37138459&title=Scattered%20Attacks%20on%20U.S.%20Forces%20in%20Iraq%0A&tid=apiraq&date=02-19-2004&url=story.news.yahoo.com%2Fnews%3Ftmpl%3Dstory%26u%3D%2Fap%2F20040219%2Fap_on_re_mi_ea%2Firaq_28&.sig=z666r4tz9bkJRd98DuRbNQ--)
Check that or any other Yahoo message board I guess by your bullshit first grade logic Yahoo is a racist website.

If the creator of LGF makes a posts and racists agree with him, then he is a racist:rolleyes:

Really?
Yahoo Message Board (http://post.news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=NEWS&action=l&ft=1&board=37138459&sid=37138459&title=Scattered%20Attacks%20on%20U.S.%20Forces%20in%20Iraq%0A&tid=apiraq&date=02-19-2004&url=story.news.yahoo.com%2Fnews%3Ftmpl%3Dstory%26u%3D%2Fap%2F20040219%2Fap_on_re_mi_ea%2Firaq_28&.sig=z666r4tz9bkJRd98DuRbNQ--)
Check that or any other Yahoo message board I guess by your bullshit first grade logic Yahoo is a racist website.
I was unaware that Yahoo was an opinionated blog made by a solatary individual. I also failed to see a huge multitude of posts about the arab race, I saw some islamiphobic shit, but that isn't about race, is it?

Yahoo is a news source, not an opinionated blog, your analogy fails. Yahoo makes reports about events around the world, it doesn't constantly make remarks about a culture or a race, and it certainly does not have the level of racism that LGF has on their message board.
Apples=/=oranges
If the creator of LGF makes a post about a race and racists who target that race agree with him, then he is a racist:rolleyes:

Correct.

This is a colossal waste of my time, no matter how many times I refute your argument, you will just continue on with the rinse&repeat cycle of restating your point, and insulting me, this is going nowhere.

The word of those who served under, above, and with him is very damning. Please show me where the records directly contradict with my sources.

That book is fact. If it were libelous, Kerry would've filed suit against Mr. O'Neill. He has not down so for reasons.

Most of the people who have served with Kerry claim this is true. Please stopping screaming " right wing conspiracy." You sound like Hillary Clinton when you do that.

John Kerry says he was on a covert mission when he received the wound for which he gained his first Purple Heart. He has been on record as saying his unit saw Vietnamese onshore, and commenced firing... and he has said he is unsure where the shrapnel that caused the wound came from.

John Kerry has said that he was on this covert mission with two other men: William Zaladonis and Patrick Runyon.

William Zaladonis has said that he was on a covert mission with John Kerry and Patrick Runyon, that they spotted and fired on Vietnamese troops onshore, and that he is unsure where the shrapnel that caused the wound came from.

Partick Runyon has said thet he was on a covert mission with John Kerry and William Zaladonis. He has corroborated the stories of both William Zaladonis and John Kerry, himself.


The book you continue to cite as some kind of gospel is written by two persons who were not on the scene (O'Neill and Corsi), and the account they cite for evidence of the 'faking' of the first Purple Heart is the 'witness testimony' of William Schachte Jr.

You will note: Kerry claims there were three men on the team. Runyon claims there were three men on the team. Zaladonis claims there were three men on the team. All three have explicitly stated that Schachte was NOT on their boat.

Not only does Schachte appear to be claiming to be a witness to an event he could not have seen (and the ONLY conflicting witness)... but it contradicts Schachte's OWN earlier testimony:

In "Unfit..." Schachte's account says there was no return fire. In the Boston Globe in an interview in April of 2003 Schachte said there was "a firefight", and that Kerry "got hit".


Schachte is a liar.

O'Neill and Corsi are liars.

I've seen the 'casualty reports', and I hold them in much higher esteem than the 'witness testimony' who other witnesses say was NOT THERE, or the political writings of opportunists based on that alleged 'witness report'.

(Oh - by the way, a little bit of online looking found me copies of those witness reports - do you have ANY evidence to support O'Neill, Corsi or Schachte?)

(http://wid.ap.org/documents/kerry/actionreports.pdf) - warning .pdf format.

Having read through this thread in it's entirety and reviewed the histories of certain posters, I am now prepared to make a ruling upon it.

Firstly; Everyone needs to remember to debate sensibly and calmly. Ad hominem attacks, of which there have been entirely too many in this thread, are not good debate.

If you find yourself writing insults directed at other players, you should step away from your computers before you post something you may regret later.

Secondly; The Nazz is forumbanned for two weeks. You've claimed to teach rhetoric, but unfortunately I can see no evidence of it - only flaming unbecoming a NationStates poster, much less someone in the education sector.

Thirdly; Eutrusca is deleted. Right from the get-go your posts in this thread have qualified as baiting, descending at times to outright flaming, and you have shown many times that you are not interested in the points raised by other posters.

Looking over your history, I find a long string of similar offences. There comes a point when this sort of thing has to stop. You need to develop your debating skills beyond these sort of barking-dog attacks. I am confident that you are intelligent enough to do so; please prove me right.

And again, a notice for everyone; there are many people, in this thread or elsewhere, who quite publicly dislike Eutrusca. Singing "Ding dong, the witch is dead", or gloating in any other shape or form is forbidden, and will invite due punishment. So please don't do it.

~ Tsar the Mod.