NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, the ignoble Mr. Kerry stepped on his own petard again, this time insulting the intelligence of every member of the US Armed Forces. This is the man so many of you thought should be President. GROAN!

Get get get get get get over it.

We've had two threads on this already.

Oh noes! He insulted the troops! Lynch the bastard!

Well, the ignoble Mr. Kerry stepped on his own petard again, this time insulting the intelligence of every member of the US Armed Forces. This is the man so many of you thought should be President. GROAN!

hmm,

Insulting people vs getting people killed, now which one would be worse...

Just the sort of responses I would have expected from some on here.

At least someone had the good sense to record what the ignoble Mr. Kerry actually said:

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

No, I will not get over it. No, I don't give a shit how many times it's been posted, and no, I will not STFU. So sue me.

John Kerry made a booboo, but come on, how many times has John Kerry invaded Iraq? At least one fewer then the Shrub.

Spin, spin, spin. Around and around we go, and were we stop is attacking the messenger when we don't like the message ... again!

Just about the sort of response I would have expected from some on here.

At least someone had the good sense to record what the ignoble Mr. Kerry actually said:

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

No, I will not get over it. No, I don't give a shit how many times it's been posted, and no, I will not STFU. So sue me.

When I first heard it, my first response was "hey, that's not the case, stop being tasteless John".

And just a few days before Veterans Day. How utterly revaltory of the true thinking of John Kerry and of the Democrat approach to those who serve.

And just a few days before Veterans Day. How utterly revaltory of the true thinking of John Kerry and of the Democrat approach to those who serve.

And there it is...

The truth hurts, don't it! But then again, I'm just one of those poor, "uneducated" slobs who wound up in Vietnam, so what the fuck do *I* know, right?

Even the members of Kerry's own party are distancing themselves from this asshole, cancelling speaking appearances and telling this buttwipe what the score is:

“This is an example of politics at its worst,” said Scott Kleeb, a Democratic candidate for Congress in Nebraska. “Many of us have serious concerns over the current situation in Iraq, but no one should question the intelligence and dedication of our troops. Senator Kerry’s remark was disrespectful and insulting.”

J“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”
yeah, that's mainly correct.

where's the problem?

yeah, that's mainly correct.

where's the problem?

Something to do with hatred of freedom of speech, I think. To criticise the troops is, of course, the highest form of treason, heresy and general badness, and is a sign of the high-reaching Lib-Commie-Democrat Conspiracy. It's only expression of freedom of speech when one is praising the troops; criticising them should result in a lynching.

The truth hurts, don't it!

Were that to be true, why would hurt?

Hmmm... I think he meant Bush. But you need to be a good lateral thinker to get that, so yeah, he screwed up.

well it is true if you study hard you tend to be far away from the fighting when you join the military...


maybe he wants to show how in the U.S you will be hung for anything remotely insulting to troops?

Hey, they did poorly at school so you could be free! Free from having to deal with dropouts because they're all overseas fighting....




*boom* *chish*








*leaves*

GOP Sen. John McCain, like Kerry a decorated Vietnam veteran and a potential 2008 rival, said while campaigning for Republican candidates in Indiana that "the suggestion that only the least educated Americans would agree to serve in the military and fight in Iraq is an insult to every Soldier serving in combat today."

Several points.....

1 - The troops didn't put themselves there, the politicians put them there. kerry should be criticising Bush not the soldiers

2 - Don't know about the US military but most British soldiers are thick as a brick (for some reason this only a[pplies to soldiers, sailors and airmen tend to be reasonably intelligent fellows)

3 - Free speech get over it. If someone wants to criticize the military they are free to do so. If someone wants to say they get a huge boner for Osama and want to have his babies, THEY ARE FREE TO DO SO. I don't agree with any of these things, but I would defend the right of people to say it. Thats freedom and democracy for you.

2 - Don't know about the US military but most British soldiers are thick as a brick (for some reason this only a[pplies to soldiers, sailors and airmen tend to be reasonably intelligent fellows)


officers tend to be quite smart, as you need a degree or at least some qualifications to get into the OTC, iirc (flatmate of mine at uni was in the OTC, but then you probably know a lot more than me...).
so if the US military is anything similar, then kerry's sentiment carries some truth at least. officers do go to iraq, but i guess most don't fight on the frontlines, maybe? *shrugs*

decorated Vietnam veteran

:eek: he served in Nam well HS his word must be law and worth more than anyone else’s!

remember he served in Nam and is thus special!

while campaigning for Republican candidates in Indiana

I'm a tad suspicious about his intentions on this

"the suggestion that only the least educated Americans would agree to serve in the military and fight in Iraq is an insult to every Soldier serving in combat today."

or its true *waits for a quote from an actual soldier in Iraq on the “issue“*

officers tend to be quite smart, as you need a degree or at least some qualifications to get into the OTC, iirc (flatmate of mine at uni was in the OTC, but then you probably know a lot more than me...).
so if the US military is anything similar, then kerry's sentiment carries some truth at least. officers do go to iraq, but i guess most don't fight on the frontlines, maybe? *shrugs*

Officers do have degrees in the British Army, as do officers in the RN and RAF, but they tend do be from "good" universities, ie, Oxford, Cambridge, somewhere in between. The british military is one of the last bastions of class differences in Britain today. If you have a working class accent then forget about Sandhurst no matter how bright you are. (Again, bit different for the navy and air force)

2 - sailors, airmen and the royal artillery as a whole tend to be reasonably intelligent fellows)

edited for truth!

officers tend to be quite smart, as you need a degree or at least some qualifications to get into the OTC

then again you could just go to a military college and scrape a pass for some odd reason

yeah, that's mainly correct.

where's the problem?

No, it really rather isn't. I've friends at OSU who are in the Guard or the reserves because they need money to pay for college, and they work their asses off in school, yet, several of them have found themselves over there at least once.

Several points.....

1 - The troops didn't put themselves there, the politicians put them there. kerry should be criticising Bush not the soldiers

2 - Don't know about the US military but most British soldiers are thick as a brick (for some reason this only a[pplies to soldiers, sailors and airmen tend to be reasonably intelligent fellows)

3 - Free speech get over it. If someone wants to criticize the military they are free to do so. If someone wants to say they get a huge boner for Osama and want to have his babies, THEY ARE FREE TO DO SO. I don't agree with any of these things, but I would defend the right of people to say it. Thats freedom and democracy for you.

Uh ... that's one of the reasons I was in the military, I completely believe in freedom of speech. I also believe in the freedom to criticise those who abuse that freedom by attacking those who defend it. You don't???

well he served in vn, big fucking deal

he came home and dissed the others serving in vn in .gov hearings

he threw away medals earned in vn by tossing them on the whitehouse lawn [originally said his, in 2004 campaign they were other's medals]

dickhead is antimilitary and hasn't flipflopped on it since the 70s

he meant the troops and not the bush - screw kerry with a rusty reinforcing rod

:upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

Kerry is a Douche!
He voted to send them there or at least agreed with their deployment.

then again you could just go to a military college and scrape a pass for some odd reason

Of course, in the US the Military Academies are extremely selective.

Hmmm... I think he meant Bush. But you need to be a good lateral thinker to get that, so yeah, he screwed up.

Spin, spin, spin. He said it. He meant it. It was revalatory of how he and lots of other Dems think. Live with it.

Spin, spin, spin. He said it. He meant it. It was revalatory of how he and lots of other Dems think. Live with it.

Kerry said X.
Kerry is a Democrat.
Therefore, many other Democrats think X.



I think not.

Kerry said X.
Kerry is a Democrat.
Therefore, many other Democrats think X.

I think not.

I live here. I talk with Dems. You don't. End of story.

I live here. I talk with Dems. You don't. End of story.

So Kerry's opinion is magically that of other Dems because you're American and I'm not?

:confused:

So Kerry's opinion is magically that of other Dems because you're American and I'm not?

:confused:

LMAO! :rolleyes:

I live here, I talk to Dems, I know how some ( perhaps even most ) of them think. You don't have the opportunity to do so. What part of this confuses you?

Well, the ignoble Mr. Kerry stepped on his own petard again, this time insulting the intelligence of every member of the US Armed Forces. This is the man so many of you thought should be President. GROAN!

It was silly of him indeed, but he meant Bush - but since he got it wrong (apparently left out an "us", as in "you get us stuck in Iraq") he created an instant Kerryism.

And I think it's sweet of Mr. Bush to help him drive the point home :)
The members of the United States military are plenty smart and they are plenty brave :p

Aw hell, Mr. Bush has insulted the intelligence of a lot more people than just every member of the US armed forces... And he's put them in danger as well. BTW, did he ever apologise for the "Bring 'em on" comment?

Even the members of Kerry's own party are distancing themselves

LMAO! :rolleyes:

I live here, I talk to Dems, I know how some ( perhaps even most ) of them think. You don't have the opportunity to do so. What part of this confuses you?

See, it's that bit. Kinda makes me think that maybe he wasn't speaking for the party.

Well, the ignoble Mr. Kerry stepped on his own petard again, this time insulting the intelligence of every member of the US Armed Forces. This is the man so many of you thought should be President. GROAN!

Good grief. Can people not understand that this was about Bush getting stuck in Iraq because he's an idiot?

And indeed, Gravlen was right - he botched it be dropping the "us".

And I still don't understand how the current GOP administration of chickenhawks lead by a deserter continues to get away with smearing combat veterans while wrapping themselves in the bloody flag.

And I still don't understand how the current GOP administration of chickenhawks lead by a deserter continues to get away with smearing combat veterans while wrapping themselves in the bloody flag.

Because the neo-cons opperate on a very strict principle, it's called: Our guy is always right, their guy is always wrong.

See, it's that bit. Kinda makes me think that maybe he wasn't speaking for the party.

He's not speaking for the party officially, he is, however, voicing things many of the party faithful only think for fear of turning off the average American voter.

Good grief. Can people not understand that this was about Bush getting stuck in Iraq because he's an idiot?

And indeed, Gravlen was right - he botched it be dropping the "us".

And I still don't understand how the current GOP administration of chickenhawks lead by a deserter continues to get away with smearing combat veterans while wrapping themselves in the bloody flag.

Spin, spin, spin. I'm a combat veteran and I would MUCH rather have a stupid Republican President than a stupid Democrat President.

Mr. Bush has insulted the intelligence of a lot more people than just every member of the US armed forces... And he's put them in danger as well.

Annnnd ... your proof???

He's not speaking for the party officially, he is, however, voicing things many of the party faithful only think for fear of turning off the average American voter.


Spin, spin, spin.

Physician, heal thyself.

Spin, spin, spin.

On all sides.

I'm a combat veteran and I would MUCH rather have a stupid Republican President than a stupid Democrat President.

And that's one of the biggest problems with partisan politics. I'd rather have a combat vet in the office of the Supreme comander than a deserter, while the partisans care only about which party the man is from, as if that really mattered more than character or experience.

Ah, the "centrist" (TM) Eutrusca has found a new excuse to bash the Democrats based on the words of one of them...


And I still don't understand how the current GOP administration of chickenhawks lead by a deserter continues to get away with smearing combat veterans while wrapping themselves in the bloody flag.

Because, while Bush & Co send soldiers to their deaths in a pointless war, dishonouring them by sacrificing them in a meaningless bloodbath, while they cut veterans' benefits and while they insult soldiers, they have used so much propaganda presenting themselves as the Defenders of the Troups that millions of credulous of Americans, unwilling to over-exert their brains and look beyond the simplistic, have come to accept it as a self-evident mantra.

Spin, spin, spin. He said it. He meant it. It was revalatory of how he and lots of other Dems think. Live with it.

I don't doubt he meant it. All I'm saying is that when he said "or get stuck in Iraq" he could have been referring the Dubya, not the soldiers. It is equally applicable and would make more sense given the context; however it was unclear, imprecise, and said in a douchey way, which is why it blew in his face.

If he had said "or get stuck without an exit strategy from Iraq" that'd been much clearer. But he didn't, so, yeah, he's a moron.

Ah, the "centrist" (TM) Eutrusca has found a new excuse to bash the Democrats based on the words of one of them...

Because, while Bush & Co send soldiers to their deaths in a pointless war, dishonouring them by sacrificing them in a meaningless bloodbath, while they cut veterans' benefits and while they insult soldiers, they have used so much propaganda presenting themselves as the Defenders of the Troups that millions of credulous of Americans, unwilling to over-exert their brains and look beyond the simplistic, have come to accept it as a self-evident mantra.

Ah! Spoken like a true spin-miester! Congratulations.

I take exception to the following terms:

"Pointless war." [ You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how inane. ]

"Meaningless bloodbath" [ see above ]

"Cut veterans benefits." [ I'm a veteran and I know of no benefit cuts ]

"Insult soldiers" [ That's Mr. Kerry's modus operadi. ]

"Credulous Americans" [ Uh ... over here, we call them "voters." ]

"Simplistic." [ Whether you like it or not, some things don't require a rocket scientist to understand. Careful, your intellectual arrogance is showing, but then, that's a rather common ocurrance on here. Sigh. ]

Kerry's only real mistake was speaking. Every time he does, republicans go nuts. You'd think he'd know better by now. ;)

2 - Don't know about the US military but most British soldiers are thick as a brick (for some reason this only a[pplies to soldiers, sailors and airmen tend to be reasonably intelligent fellows)


nonono, sailors are retarded dickheads too. i live near the docks here in edinburgh and everytime a navy ship comes in the pubs and clubs fill up with sailors starting fights/groping women/demanding free drink and free respect etc. the only reason that the airforce might be an exception is they don't really have grunts - almost everyone has a specific trade in the airforce, the exception being the gunners (gate guards and airfield defence) unless handling a gun is a specific trade now.

officers tend to be quite smart, as you need a degree or at least some qualifications to get into the OTC, iirc (flatmate of mine at uni was in the OTC, but then you probably know a lot more than me...).
so if the US military is anything similar, then kerry's sentiment carries some truth at least. officers do go to iraq, but i guess most don't fight on the frontlines, maybe? *shrugs*

actually the only academic requirement to enter officer training, for the RAF anyway, even for flying a multi-million pound fighter plane, is two EEs at A level.

Well, the ignoble Mr. Kerry stepped on his own petard again, this time insulting the intelligence of every member of the US Armed Forces. This is the man so many of you thought should be President. GROAN!
If they think he is insulting their intelligence, they deserve to have it insulted.

Spin, spin, spin. He said it. He meant it. It was revalatory of how he and lots of other Dems think. Live with it.

Bull-fucking-shit, you're just being a partisan hack. It was pretty clear to me the moment that Kerry spoke that it was a Bush joke. Put back into context, it's even clearer. If anything the media is the group spinning this out of proportion, by offering a biased look at what really happened. After all, they need a horse race to keep ratings high.

I despise it when Republicans spin a statement this way. They did it to Al Gore, and now they are doing it to John Kerry. The fact is that the real joke was one against Bush, and the only spin is the Far Right and the (desperate) media, who attempt to turn this into an insult.

The first time I saw it on the news my response was, "So? People make fun of Bush all the time."

It took me a minute to realize people were stupid enough to beleive that he was speaking of the troops. After all, unlike Bush and his cowardly buddies, John Kerry actually served in the military (contrary to the claims of the Swiftboat Liars for "Truth"), and would have no cause to insult troops.

But then again, Partisan hackery matters more to Eut than fact, when it comes to Democrats.

And just a few days before Veterans Day. How utterly revaltory of the true thinking of John Kerry and of the Democrat approach to those who serve.


I love watching this hard-on expose his true self. How many times will he insult the men and women who CHOOSE to serve? He'd have people believe the less intelligent are drafted and deposited in a foxhole.

Its even funnier watching this deplorable scum-bag Kerry try to back pedal his way out of it. First-he tries the outrage and he wont stand for this from the GOP anymore- some evil ventriloquist threw their voice and made Kerry, the poor little wooden boy say it.
Now, they're trying the "it was a joke" angle. See if people swallow that.

If not, he'll probably have to admit he was molested and drinks when no one else can see him.


I'd say "Fuck you, John Kerry", but he's fucking himself in a solo porno production.

Ah! Spoken like a true spin-miester! Congratulations.

You'd have much to teach me yourself in that particular field.


"Pointless war." [ You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how inane. ]


And the point of invading Iraq was...? I've forgotten what Bush's latest "this of course always has been the reason, forget what I said earlier" is.


"Credulous Americans" [ Uh ... over here, we call them "voters." ]


Are you trying to make my point for me?


"Simplistic." [ Whether you like it or not, some things don't require a rocket scientist to understand. Careful, your intellectual arrogance is showing, but then, that's a rather common ocurrance on here. Sigh. ]

Some things. My point is that the Bush régime (to use a word they like people to use) particularly enjoys reducing the most complex situations into the most simplistic (and absurd) rhetoric. They are hardly alone in that, of course, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored, denied or applauded. Take any Bush speech, and it's so filled with attempts at testing listeners' ignorance and sheer stupidity that it's very worrying.

Oh, what's wrong with "intellectual arrogance"? Happily for me, I live in a country where you're not looked down upon for thinking. I'm not going to go around dumbing myself down and nodding pleasantly at people expressing idiotic beliefs (I don't mean you here; you're not an idiot in any sense, although your single-mindedness on some issues is frustrating). I do not agree that all opinions are of equal value. A rational, well-informed and well thought-out point of view is infinitely more worthy of respect than a dumb comment parroting a meaningless platitude from propaganda and common opinion, without a flicker of thought between the hearing and the repeating.

I grow tired of hearing that I should respect the latter. I will not apologise for my "intellectual arrogance" as you put it. What I will do and always have done, however, is respect a point of view opposed to my own if it is rational, logical and well informed. (Which is why I do respect your beliefs more often than not.)

nonono, sailors are retarded dickheads too. i live near the docks here in edinburgh and everytime a navy ship comes in the pubs and clubs fill up with sailors starting fights/groping women/demanding free drink and free respect etc. the only reason that the airforce might be an exception is they don't really have grunts - almost everyone has a specific trade in the airforce, the exception being the gunners (gate guards and airfield defence) unless handling a gun is a specific trade now.


:eek:

I was a sailor. :(

Spin, spin, spin. I'm a combat veteran and I would MUCH rather have a stupid Republican President than a stupid Democrat President.

Are we not even pretending to be 'centrist' any more?

I live here. I talk with Dems. You don't. End of story.

Personal experience does not proof make. Althouh I can bet you are lying just to try and defend your position anyway as I've seen you do it so many times on threads. 1. Kerry doesn't represent all Democrats 2. Generalizing as you do will always lead to ignorance. 3. Read the entire transcipt and not just the excerpts from youtube and your local news to see his words in context. His words were meant to make fun of Bush and how he "got us stuck in Iraq." Hell, I don't like Kerry very much as I believe anyone with half a soul could have beat Bush in 2004. 4. How does Kerry making one stupid remark make up for Iraq, Katrina, Largest trade deficit ever, Largest debt ever, Foley, Nay, Noe, Abramoff, "macaca", Delay, Chief Procurement officer guilty of fraud, negligent body armor for troops, negligent pre-war planning, negligent post war planning, divisive campaigning on wedge issues like abortion, guns, and gays, and the list goes on and on? Do you really think one boo making a stupid statement makes up for all of that? For Christ's sake get some perspective. :headbang:

actually the only academic requirement to enter officer training, for the RAF anyway, even for flying a multi-million pound fighter plane, is two EEs at A level.

ah, you gotta work hard for that ;)

or, at least, you gotta pass some GCSE's :p

He's not speaking for the party officially, he is, however, voicing things many of the party faithful only think for fear of turning off the average American voter.

and your omnipotent knowledge come from?

Well, the ignoble Mr. Kerry stepped on his own petard again, this time insulting the intelligence of every member of the US Armed Forces. This is the man so many of you thought should be President. GROAN!

Wow... if this is bunching your panties this much, you must be practically messing yourself over Bush 'flip-flopping' on his 'stay-the-course' manifesto.

Bull-fucking-shit, you're just being a partisan hack. It was pretty clear to me the moment that Kerry spoke that it was a Bush joke. Put back into context, it's even clearer. If anything the media is the group spinning this out of proportion, by offering a biased look at what really happened. After all, they need a horse race to keep ratings high.

I despise it when Republicans spin a statement this way. They did it to Al Gore, and now they are doing it to John Kerry. The fact is that the real joke was one against Bush, and the only spin is the Far Right and the (desperate) media, who attempt to turn this into an insult.

The first time I saw it on the news my response was, "So? People make fun of Bush all the time."

It took me a minute to realize people were stupid enough to beleive that he was speaking of the troops. After all, unlike Bush and his cowardly buddies, John Kerry actually served in the military (contrary to the claims of the Swiftboat Liars for "Truth"), and would have no cause to insult troops.

But then again, Partisan hackery matters more to Eut than fact, when it comes to Democrats.

Spare us. I listened directly to what Mr.Kerry said. It looks like he was ad-libbing a bit and unfortuately, exposed himself for the mealy-mouthed fraud he is.
It was an attempted low-blow that backfired and kicked this sullen douche-bag right in his own balls.

Dont pretend for a moment that "intelligent" people understand what he truly meant- he spoke quite plainly.

Besides- all the ones that didnt "make themselves smart" already wound up in Iraq.

Remember- he voted for the war after voting against it. And he'd vote for it again. Or something.

Even the psuedo intellectuals cant keep up with this fake,phoney fraud.

I love watching this hard-on expose his true self. How many times will he insult the men and women who CHOOSE to serve? He'd have people believe the less intelligent are drafted and deposited in a foxhole.

That's not what he said, but if it was and that's what did happen, we would have a shitload less right-wingers here based on this thread alone.

:eek:

I was a sailor. :(

ever been to edinburgh?

if no, you can be an exception ;)

anyway, i'm only basing it on my own direct personal experience of sailors in edinburgh. my opening sentence was too deterministic, i'll admit. although one of my cousins is a helicopter mechanic in the RN and he's a dick aswell, so it's obviously not restricted to grunts. and an ex-bestfriend was in the Navy but got kicked out for being a dick so there's hope yet for the navy, haha. i heard it was something about being overheard saying he wanted to nick one of the missiles he was training to be a technician for and go and blow someone up with it.

ever been to edinburgh?

if no, you can be an exception ;)

anyway, i'm only basing it on my own direct personal experience of sailors in edinburgh. my opening sentence was too deterministic, i'll admit. although one of my cousins is a helicopter mechanic in the RN and he's a dick aswell, so it's obviously not restricted to grunts. and an ex-bestfriend was in the Navy but got kicked out for being a dick so there's hope yet for the navy, haha. i heard it was something about being overheard saying he wanted to nick one of the missiles he was training to be a technician for and go and blow someone up with it.

No, never been there. I was an Electronic Warfare technician. *nod*

That's not what he said, but if it was and that's what did happen, we would have a shitload less right-wingers here based on this thread alone.

Ah, very good. And the "left-wingers" wold have nothing to talk about, aside from their real life dungeons and dragons escapades.

Dont give yourself that much credit.

:p

ah, you gotta work hard for that ;)

or, at least, you gotta pass some GCSE's :p

minimum of 5 Cs at GCSE. i remember these cuz i remember being just totally incredulous, when i was applying for an RAF 6th form scholarship, that the requirements for being in charge of lethal and expensive machines, and for being in charge of lethal and priceless people, was so low.

Here's the BBC article on the incident, by the way:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6105004.stm

With an audio-visual (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/help/3681938.stm) too.


The BBC's James Coomarasamy, in Washington, says the White House seized on the comments to attack the decorated Vietnam War veteran and by extension his party.

Now that rings a bell... *glances at the OP*


Mr. Kerry [...] said Republicans were refusing to debate real issues of foreign policy.

"It disgusts me that a bunch of these Republican hacks who've never worn the uniform of our country are willing to lie about those who did," he said.


Although of course Kerry did slip up. What he said was not what a populist demagogue is supposed to say, now is it? And it wasn't very smart at all to hand the Republicans a golden opportunity at a time when the Bush régime is floundering in its own mistakes, incompetence and hypocricy.

Ah, very good. And the "left-wingers" wold have nothing to talk about, aside from their real life dungeons and dragons escapades.

Dont give yourself that much credit.

:p

I love the smell of generalisations in the morning! Smells like...bullshit!

Seriously dude, what the hell? What do you even know about DnD? Do tell - or do you simply list it as another insult to fire off at 'Left-Wingers' as if it actually is an insult?

Here's the BBC article on the incident, by the way:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6105004.stm

With an audio-visual (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/help/3681938.stm) too.

Now that rings a bell... *glances at the OP*

Although of course Kerry did slip up. What he said was not what a populist demagogue is supposed to say, now is it? And it wasn't very smart at all to hand the Republicans a golden opportunity at a time when the Bush régime is floundering in its own mistakes, incompetence and hypocricy.

Kerry is no "war hero!" He was a glory hound who faked at least two of his three wounds to get enough Purple Hearts to bail out on his men and return to the US so he could call them "war criminals." He's a lying, cheating asshole who married twice into wealth so he would have enough money to buy public office. I wouldn't waste a bullet on the son-of-a-bitch.

That's not what he said, but if it was and that's what did happen, we would have a shitload less right-wingers here based on this thread alone.

That may be so, but it would only be because lefties are so good at criticising that which they are too cowardly to participate in.

minimum of 5 Cs at GCSE. i remember these cuz i remember being just totally incredulous, when i was applying for an RAF 6th form scholarship, that the requirements for being in charge of lethal and expensive machines, and for being in charge of lethal and priceless people, was so low.

When I interviewed for the Royal Artillery, I was told that the requirements were based on 'points', not grades - i.e. that an officer needs at least 35 'points' (of which the only grade requirement was a pass (C) in English) AND 180 UCAS points (of which the only grade requirement was that there must be at least 2 E grade A level passes - or equivalent).

Since I was talking Artillery, I was told there were additional requirements specific to that path... basically, the grades/points suggested are the absolute minimum. Getting those grades doesn't necessarily 'qualify' one.

Kerry is no "war hero!" He was a glory hound who faked at least two of his three wounds to get enough Purple Hearts to bail out on his men and return to the US so he could call them "war criminals." He's a lying, cheating asshole who married twice into wealth so he would have enough money to buy public office. I wouldn't waste a bullett on the son-of-a-bitch.

Unlike your glorious President, may God bless his soul, who heroically defended the United States and its citizens from the dangers of Communism via draft-dodging and using his father as an excuse not to serve.

All hail Bush! May death come swiftly to his enemies!

Kerry is no "war hero!" He was a glory hound who faked at least two of his three wounds to get enough Purple Hearts to bail out on his men and return to the US so he could call them "war criminals." He's a lying, cheating asshole who married twice into wealth so he would have enough money to buy public office. I wouldn't waste a bullet on the son-of-a-bitch.

And he speaks so highly of you...

I love the smell of generalisations in the morning! Smells like...bullshit!

Seriously dude, what the hell? What do you even know about DnD? Do tell - or do you simply list it as another insult to fire off at 'Left-Wingers' as if it actually is an insult?

Seriously Dude- Stop the silly shrieking and read the post I was responding to in kind- I was mocking in response to a previous generalization.

Spin, spin, spin. I'm a combat veteran and I would MUCH rather have a stupid Republican President than a stupid Democrat President.

He was making a joke about Bush. In the context that seemed quite clear... except to people with blinkers maybe.

The wording was not that great, and he missed an US, but in the contect the intent was clear - and was clarified by his rebuttal.

Unlike your glorious President, may God bless his soul, who heroically defended the United States and its citizens from the dangers of Communism via draft-dodging and using his father as an excuse not to serve.

All hail Bush! May death come swiftly to his enemies!

Tsk. You really should try to use some facts instead of the propagandistic lies of far left blogs. GWB served in the Air National Guard at a time when he could have been called to active duty at any time. He definitely was not a "draft dodger." But then, it's pointless to confuse with the facts those whose minds have been made up almost since birth. Sigh.

Seriously Dude- Stop the silly shrieking and read the post I was responding to in kind- I was mocking in response to a previous generalization.

I figure if we're going to have some mudlinging, we ought to have something slightly more original. You know, not something idiots are spinning vastly out of context.

Oh wait...

Seriously Dude- Stop the silly shrieking and read the post I was responding to in kind- I was mocking in response to a previous generalization.

Ignore him. Like most lefties, he finds neo-cons under his bed at night.

Tsk. You really should try to use some facts instead of the propagandistic lies of far left blogs. GWB served in the Air National Guard at a time when he could have been called to active duty at any time. He definitely was not a "draft dodger." But then, it's pointless to confuse with the facts those whose minds have been made up almost since birth. Sigh.

Do you take acting lessons for that melodrama? Seriously, why is it so hard to actually admit that Bush didn't have a great war record?

Ignore him. Like most lefties, he finds neo-cons under his bed at night.

Actually, I'm centre of the political line, but please don't let that get in the way of your generalisations.

Tsk. You really should try to use some facts instead of the propagandistic lies of far left blogs. GWB served in the Air National Guard at a time when he could have been called to active duty at any time. He definitely was not a "draft dodger." But then, it's pointless to confuse with the facts those whose minds have been made up almost since birth. Sigh.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. Bush was never in any danger of being called up, and in fact when he was given the option to be called to active duty, he refused it. You're a sycophant and a supporter of a liar and an incompetent fool who has done far more damage to this country and the military than any deliberately misinterpreted comment by a man who served honorably could ever hope to do.

And he speaks so highly of you...

LMAO! Suuure he does! Riiiight! :rolleyes:

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. Bush was never in any danger of being called up, and in fact when he was given the option to be called to active duty, he refused it. You're a sycophant and a supporter of a liar and an incompetent fool who has done far more damage to this country and the military than any deliberately misinterpreted comment by a man who served honorably could ever hope to do.

Using "Kerry" and "honorably" in the same paragraph is a classic oxymoron.

Kerry is no "war hero!" He was a glory hound who faked at least two of his three wounds to get enough Purple Hearts to bail out on his men and return to the US so he could call them "war criminals."

And here was me thinking that anyone who risked his life fighting for his country was deserving of respect... especially when he then denounced those who did commit war crimes.


That may be so, but it would only be because lefties are so good at criticising that which they are too cowardly to participate in.


So... Bush is a "lefty" but Kerry isn't? Well, Kerry isn't, of course, but this is the first time I've heard you refer to Bush as a "lefty", oh Mr. "Centrist"...

Anyway, the Bush regime is undoubtedly delighted for an opportunity to draw attention away from this:


But perhaps even more damaging was the leak, last month, of the US spy agencies' collective take on Iraq; the National Intelligence Estimate or NIE.

It stated that the country had become a "cause celebre" for jihadists and noted that the conflict there was increasing the threats to US interests - both abroad and at home.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6035745.stm , October 11th)


Which has been obvious for a long time, of course...

I'm gonna "cut & run" here and make it clear that I dont for a second consider Mr.Kerry to have been speaking on behalf of the Democratic Party. He was just spouting for his own selfish reasons, as always.

And if he were truly "joking" about President Bush, imagine how poorly Mr.Kerry feels about himself after being so soundly defeated by someone so less intelligent than himself.

Wether he will continue to try to slick this off as a joke or not-who cares what he has to say? He has rendered himself an invalid phony-at worst, exposing his loathing for our military, at best-unable to pull off the lamest of jokes.

If democrats are smart, they'll do what they can before this nit-wit froths again. Before the rest of the less-intelligent folks realize he IS speaking for the democrats.

Kerry is no "war hero!" He was a glory hound who faked at least two of his three wounds to get enough Purple Hearts to bail out on his men and return to the US so he could call them "war criminals." He's a lying, cheating asshole who married twice into wealth so he would have enough money to buy public office. I wouldn't waste a bullet on the son-of-a-bitch.
And you talk about people following the far-left blogs? Fuck you, man. You're not worthy to carry Kerry's sweaty jock strap, and I don't even like the guy. You've got Limbaugh on the brain and O'Reilly on the ass. Give it up.

Actually, I'm centre of the political line, but please don't let that get in the way of your generalisations.

Aaahahahahahahahhahahahhaha! OMG! That's hilarious! LMAO!

Using "Kerry" and "honorably" in the same paragraph is a classic oxymoron.

Served more honorably than you did, no doubt.

I'm gonna "cut & run" here and make it clear that I dont for a second consider Mr.Kerry to have been speaking on behalf of the Democratic Party. He was just spouting for his own selfish reasons, as always.

And if he were truly "joking" about President Bush, imagine how poorly Mr.Kerry feels about himself after being so soundly defeated by someone so less intelligent than himself.

Wether he will continue to try to slick this off as a joke or not-who cares what he has to say? He has rendered himself an invalid phony-at worst, exposing his loathing for our military, at best-unable to pull off the lamest of jokes.

If democrats are smart, they'll do what they can before this nit-wit froths again. Before the rest of the less-intelligent folks realize he IS speaking for the democrats.

LMAO! :D

Aaahahahahahahahhahahahhaha! OMG! That's hilarious! LMAO!

Economically Conservative and Socially Liberal. Somewhat like Eisenhower's 'Dime Store New Deal' when he was President.

But my point is that yourself (And indeed others in this very thread) should really stop using such misnomers as 'Right-wing' and 'Left-wing'; they're not exactly well-defined at the best of times, and here they've just degenerated into mudslinging that's ignoring the actual issue.

Served more honorably than you did, no doubt.

I don't have to defend my service to anyone, much less you. It's a matter of public record. If you were as concerned with the facts as you so often claim to be, you would at least make a gesture in the general direction of finding out. But then, this is what I have come to expect of you and others of your ilk.

Ah, very good. And the "left-wingers" wold have nothing to talk about, aside from their real life dungeons and dragons escapades.

Dont give yourself that much credit.

:p

Right, because all left-wingers are cowards. Left-wingers sit around and enjoy the fruits of right-wingers' work. Left-wingers mope about these things called "civil rights" while right-wingers just go and do things. If John Kerry errs in speech, he should be burned at the stake. If Dubya does it, it's OK because he's "folksy." If John Kerry says something that can be construed as anti-troops, he should be put to death. If Dubya does things that are clearly anti-troop, it's OK. Black is white, and we have to agree with the neocon duckspeak. Ownlife and crimethink are doubleplusungood. And we're winning in Iraq. Democracy is right around the corner, and the insurgency is in its last throes. And we never said "stay the course." We have always been at war with Eastasia and at peace with Eurasia.

In-fucking-credible. Never mind that a lot of troops are there because it's their only option. Never mind that Iraq's a huge mistake and is turning into a quagmire. At best, we'll end up where we started, with an impossible dictator controlling the whole country; at worst, we ended up with Iraq turning into Iran Part II. If John Kerry says anything that goes against the party line of the neocons, it's death for him. Granted, his actual statement was dumb, but what I'm sure he was trying to say, whether he was taking a shot at the poor situation many of the soldiers came from or whether he was taking a shot at Dubya's shitty foreign policy, his sentiments would be echoed if he had just gotten it out. And kudos to him for telling the White House to piss off after they demanded an apology. His first statement wasn't exactly a good idea, but the fire that was missing from his 2004 campaign was shown for the first time.

I figure if we're going to have some mudlinging, we ought to have something slightly more original. You know, not something idiots are spinning vastly out of context.

Oh wait...

I really wasnt looking to hurt anyone's feelings so severely. Just responding in kind.

I dont consider pile-driving the less fortunate than me as a big success in my day- I'm just talking, not debating.

I never thought you'd take the DnD remark so personally.

Economically Conservative and Socially Liberal. Somewhat like Eisenhower's 'Dime Store New Deal' when he was President.

But my point is that yourself (And indeed others in this very thread) should really stop using such misnomers as 'Right-wing' and 'Left-wing'; they're not exactly well-defined at the best of times, and here they've just degenerated into mudslinging that's ignoring the actual issue.

Oh? And that "actual issue" would be???

Right, because all left-wingers are cowards. Left-wingers sit around and enjoy the fruits of right-wingers' work. Left-wingers mope about these things called "civil rights" while right-wingers just go and do things. If John Kerry errs in speech, he should be burned at the stake. If Dubya does it, it's OK because he's "folksy." If John Kerry says something that can be construed as anti-troops, he should be put to death. If Dubya does things that are clearly anti-troop, it's OK. Black is white, and we have to agree with the neocon duckspeak. Ownlife and crimethink are doubleplusungood. And we're winning in Iraq. Democracy is right around the corner, and the insurgency is in its last throes. And we never said "stay the course." We have always been at war with Eastasia and at peace with Eurasia.

In-fucking-credible. Never mind that a lot of troops are there because it's their only option. Never mind that Iraq's a huge mistake and is turning into a quagmire. At best, we'll end up where we started, with an impossible dictator controlling the whole country; at worst, we ended up with Iraq turning into Iran Part II. If John Kerry says anything that goes against the party line of the neocons, it's death for him. Granted, his actual statement was dumb, but what I'm sure he was trying to say, whether he was taking a shot at the poor situation many of the soldiers came from or whether he was taking a shot at Dubya's shitty foreign policy, his sentiments would be echoed if he had just gotten it out. And kudos to him for telling the White House to piss off after they demanded an apology. His first statement wasn't exactly a good idea, but the fire that was missing from his 2004 campaign was shown for the first time.

"None so blind as those who will not see." Sigh. :(

I don't have to defend my service to anyone, much less you. It's a matter of public record. If you were as concerned with the facts as you so often claim to be, you would at least make a gesture in the general direction of finding out. But then, this is what I have come to expect of you and others of your ilk.

You talk about being concerned with facts, then you trot out bullshit like Kerry wounded himself for two of his three purple hearts. You have no honor. You're a liar, a dissembler, and not worthy to have worn the same uniform.

I didn't like Kerry as a candidate, and I never did, but you've gone way beyond that--you're a libeler and deserve to be treated as such.

Right, because all left-wingers are cowards. Left-wingers sit around and enjoy the fruits of right-wingers' work. Left-wingers mope about these things called "civil rights" while right-wingers just go and do things. If John Kerry errs in speech, he should be burned at the stake. If Dubya does it, it's OK because he's "folksy." If John Kerry says something that can be construed as anti-troops, he should be put to death. If Dubya does things that are clearly anti-troop, it's OK. Black is white, and we have to agree with the neocon duckspeak. Ownlife and crimethink are doubleplusungood. And we're winning in Iraq. Democracy is right around the corner, and the insurgency is in its last throes. And we never said "stay the course." We have always been at war with Eastasia and at peace with Eurasia.

In-fucking-credible. Never mind that a lot of troops are there because it's their only option. Never mind that Iraq's a huge mistake and is turning into a quagmire. At best, we'll end up where we started, with an impossible dictator controlling the whole country; at worst, we ended up with Iraq turning into Iran Part II. If John Kerry says anything that goes against the party line of the neocons, it's death for him. Granted, his actual statement was dumb, but what I'm sure he was trying to say, whether he was taking a shot at the poor situation many of the soldiers came from or whether he was taking a shot at Dubya's shitty foreign policy, his sentiments would be echoed if he had just gotten it out. And kudos to him for telling the White House to piss off after they demanded an apology. His first statement wasn't exactly a good idea, but the fire that was missing from his 2004 campaign was shown for the first time.

Shut up, over-reacting dupe- I WAS MAKING A SARCASTIC RESPONSE IN KIND TO A PREVIOUS STATEMENT. read a little.

I shoulda bought stock in some panty company.

You talk about being concerned with facts, then you trot out bullshit like Kerry wounded himself for two of his three purple hearts. You have no honor. You're a liar, a dissembler, and not worthy to have worn the same uniform.

I didn't like Kerry as a candidate, and I never did, but you've gone way beyond that--you're a libeler and deserve to be treated as such.

Knock yourself out, dude. It's what lefties do best.

Man! I have never seen so many hysterical posts in such a short thread.

Oh? And that "actual issue" would be???

Kerry's speech, of course. Nobody has even shown the entire script of it here despite it being over a day old, yet both sides here are not even attempting to be civil or actually examine the issue in depth. You are both, in fact, just resorting to mudslinging on an unprecedented scale that surprises even me - and I've seen a lot of General in the past two years.

Instead of using Fox, or CNN or even the BBC, has anyone found the entire speech yet, not just snippets? Have you yourself, Eutrusca? Have you read the entire thing through and seen whether it is actually as offensive as you claim it to be?

Shut up, over-reacting dupe- I WAS MAKING A SARCASTIC RESPONSE IN KIND TO A PREVIOUS STATEMENT. read a little.

I shoulda bought stock in some panty company.

If everyone fails to comprehend your intent, maybe you failed to convey it? The fault might not rest with the entire rest of the world.

Annnnd ... your proof???

Apart from me feeling that he insults my intelligence every time he speaks? Hmm...

President Bush: "Peter. Are you going to ask that question with shades on?"
Peter Wallsten of the Los Angeles Times: "I can take them off."
Bush: "I'm interested in the shade look, seriously."
Wallsten: "All right, I'll keep it, then."
Bush: "For the viewers, there's no sun."
Wallsten: "I guess it depends on your perspective."
Bush: "Touche.
- June 14, 2006
Nah, that was just insulting one blind man. And he apologized, so ignore that one...

"We're never been stay the course, George." - Oct. 22, 2006
That's what I would call insulting the intelligence of anyone that's ever seen one of his "stay the course"-messages... But it's difficult to quantify...

"The point now is how do we work together to achieve important goals. And one such goal is a democracy in Germany." - May 5, 2006
Dear GOD! He just insulted the entire country of Germany by implying they're not a democratic nation! :eek:

Oh, and don't try to say that anything was taken out of context, since you apparently think that would be just spin ;)

As for putting the troops in danger by mere words: The "crusade" and "Bring 'em on" comments were more damaging than this comment by far.

Knock yourself out, dude. It's what lefties do best.

There is a way for you to redeem yourself, you know--retract the libelous statements about Kerry's service. Bitch all you want about what he did after he got back; that's fair game. But don't suggest that he wounded himself while in combat. You wouldn't stand for it if someone suggested that of you, and you shouldn't stand for it when someone suggests it of another man who served honorably.

Here's your chance to be intellectually and morally honest for once. What are you going to do?

LMAO! Suuure he does! Riiiight! :rolleyes:

Oh no - wait... that's right... he doesn't even know you exist, does he.

You, on the other hand, seem intimately familiar with him, personally.

Could it be he has forgotten his closest confidante? Or - is it the obviously less-likely scenario that you are just regurgitating the propaganda you found on some anti-Kerry site?

Has anyone found a transcript of the actual speech? I have no sound card, and I do not feel I can adequately participate in this debate without hearing or reading his words myself.

My google-fu is failing me this morning.

If everyone fails to comprehend your intent, maybe you failed to convey it? The fault might not rest with the entire rest of the world.

You have a point. I didnt carry the two previous quotes and they only read my response post. It was just two shiekers though, not the rest of the world.
They spend a lot of time taking deep breaths, ready to scream

But- you did get it, nonetheless.

"None so blind as those who will not see." Sigh. :(

Figures. Typical coming from someone who pretends to be a moderate but worships the Bush administration and despises anyone who would dare challenge his absolute authority by running against him for President in 2004. Granted, Kerry's a clod, and whoever gave his electoral vote to John Edwards in 2004 should get a medal, but to throw him over the coals for a misspoken phrase is absolutely insane. I don't care what your service record is. My fiancee's stepdad served in Vietnam as well; it doesn't make him any more qualified to criticize John Kerry (well, he's dead, but if he weren't, he wouldn't be any more or less qualified.)

Shut up, over-reacting dupe- I WAS MAKING A SARCASTIC RESPONSE IN KIND TO A PREVIOUS STATEMENT. read a little.

I shoulda bought stock in some panty company.

Back off with your name calling, asshole. I can do it right back. I don't care if your response was sarcastic. It's awfully hard to tell over a message board. It's just like most right-wingers on this board whose favorite tools are character assassination, ad hominem attacks, and accusations of faking. Two years ago, it was accusing John kerry of faking his wounds and his service to get medals. Then it was of minimizing his service time and of selling out his comrades in the military. Now, righties accuse Democratic politicians of having sham marriages and actors of faking debilitating diseases. I can't say it's not working, though; a bunch of true dupes are buying it hook, line, and sinker, and it's why the GOP will continue to have a majority on both houses of Congress.

Knock yourself out, dude. It's what lefties do best.

You want to talk about those who are blindest becausse they won't see? Any time a "lefty" makes a potentially valid point (like that Kerry actually got his wounds in...gee, I don't know...COMBAT) the response is always along the lines of "Typical lefty bullshit." It's along the same lines as holding your hands up to your ears and shouting "LALALALALALALALALALALALALA" to drown out the evil liberals. But, as I said earlier, it works, because so many people act like critical thinking is overrated.

You have a point. I didnt carry the two previous quotes and they only read my response post. It was just two shiekers though, not the rest of the world.
They spend a lot of time taking deep breaths, ready to scream

But- you did get it, nonetheless.

You know I'm not attacking you. :) Sometimes we are not as clear to others, as we seem to ourselves. Sometimes others get caught up (or confused, there are lot of people posting similar sentiments, either side of the divide)... we just need to try to bear that in mind. Myself included. :)

"None so blind as those who will not see." Sigh. :(

Hello pot, this is kettle. You're black too!

Aaahahahahahahahhahahahhaha! OMG! That's hilarious! LMAO!

And you calling yourself a centrist would be... what, exactly?


Served more honorably than you did, no doubt.

No need to toss empty slander at his war record. Don't stoop to the level of those who do it to Kerry.


"None so blind as those who will not see." Sigh.

As I've always said. But I get the impression, unfortunately, you weren't talking about yourself here...


Knock yourself out, dude. It's what lefties do best.

Riiiiight... And I suppose the absurdity of that ridiculous generalisation eludes you completely.

Back off with your name calling, asshole. I can do it right back. I don't care if your response was sarcastic. It's awfully hard to tell over a message board. It's just like most right-wingers on this board whose favorite tools are character assassination, ad hominem attacks, and accusations of faking. Two years ago, it was accusing John kerry of faking his wounds and his service to get medals. Then it was of minimizing his service time and of selling out his comrades in the military. Now, righties accuse Democratic politicians of having sham marriages and actors of faking debilitating diseases. I can't say it's not working, though; a bunch of true dupes are buying it hook, line, and sinker, and it's why the GOP will continue to have a majority on both houses of Congress.




Its clear you dont care,sarcastic or not, as long as you get to scream about something someone else might have done, some other time.
Keep twisting and shouting and someone might think you're making a point.

There is a way for you to redeem yourself, you know--retract the libelous statements about Kerry's service. Bitch all you want about what he did after he got back; that's fair game. But don't suggest that he wounded himself while in combat. You wouldn't stand for it if someone suggested that of you, and you shouldn't stand for it when someone suggests it of another man who served honorably.

Here's your chance to be intellectually and morally honest for once. What are you going to do?

What am I going to do? Stick to what I know, of course, just like I always have.

Just the sort of responses I would have expected from some on here.

At least someone had the good sense to record what the ignoble Mr. Kerry actually said:

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

No, I will not get over it. No, I don't give a shit how many times it's been posted, and no, I will not STFU. So sue me.

To some extent it is true (if that is what he really meant)

Now don’t get me wrong I am not saying that solders are un-educated but the fact that full time solders or the ones that determine further education is not for them (at least not now) DO end up either going into a vocational job or into the military for the most part.

Now that does not mean they are necessarily un educated just that their studies came second to something (weather that be life or their situation or their patriotism)

Now if you decide to work hard and put studying as a priority you can do the collage thing without scholarships, without help. If that is your priority

So study and work hard, it can be done . I am living proof.

What am I going to do? Stick to what I know, of course, just like I always have.

Slander and libel it is, then. As long as we, and everyone else here, is clear on that.

What am I going to do? Stick to what I know, of course, just like I always have.

Yes. Stay the course. All new information is suspect. Stay the course.

What am I going to do? Stick to what I know, of course, just like I always have.

Really? What you know?

Did you see Kerry self-harming?

What am I going to do? Stick to what I know, of course, just like I always have.

Sorry Eut but on this case you seem to know very little. All you've done is repeat the neocon abuse of Kerry and just responded to any criticism of you with "yeah right"

Its clear you dont care,sarcastic or not, as long as you get to scream about something someone else might have done, some other time.
Keep twisting and shouting and someone might think you're making a point.

If you're trying to make your next reply to me, "I see you are confused so I am the winner," you have succeeded. The bottom line is, I had to make that point about how people buy into the idea that left-wingers are cowards and direct it at somebody, and you made yourself an available target. Whether or not it was sarcastic was irrelevant. Granted, my post turned into a rant about something else, so whatever.

Besides, I don't think most left-wingers play D&D. I tried it; it's really kind of boring.

You know I'm not attacking you. :) Sometimes we are not as clear to others, as we seem to ourselves. Sometimes others get caught up (or confused, there are lot of people posting similar sentiments, either side of the divide)... we just need to try to bear that in mind. Myself included. :)

No- I'm well aware you're not attacking me-I understood what you meant and have re-read what I've posted a few times because of it.I've disagreed with you a few times before and have never known you to attack me, no matter what our opinions were. You're among the very few in here that I respect, despite the fact we often arent agreeing on political matters.
I have noticed though, we agree on the things that are more important to me, like some day-to-day matters, personal preferences.
And I will admit-I'm much better making my point in person- It is actually more confusing for me in here.

Politics matter very little to me.

And by the way-thanks for taking the time to make sure I was aware you were being civil. You're the perfect example of people who dont agree but dont need to treat each other like trash.

Figures. Typical coming from someone who pretends to be a moderate but worships the Bush administration and despises anyone who would dare challenge his absolute authority by running against him for President in 2004. Granted, Kerry's a clod, and whoever gave his electoral vote to John Edwards in 2004 should get a medal, but to throw him over the coals for a misspoken phrase is absolutely insane. I don't care what your service record is. My fiancee's stepdad served in Vietnam as well; it doesn't make him any more qualified to criticize John Kerry (well, he's dead, but if he weren't, he wouldn't be any more or less qualified.)

I couldn't give a shit less about GWB. At the very least he's incapable of stringing more than ten words together in a fully comprehensible manner. As I've repeatedly stated in the past, I voted for Bush as the lesser of two evils, Kerry being the greater.

The phrase wasn't "mispoken." Kerry, like many others on the left, is an arrogant, pseudo-intellectual snob. He and the others on the left, especially those in Hollyweird, have trouble comprehending how the rest of us can possibly do without their superior insight and intellect. He was simply revealing his true stripes when he made the "gaffe."

Why, don't you realize that the majority of voters in America are totally incapable of managing our own lives without the munificient wisdom and superior intellect of the left? How can we, the great unwashed, uneducated rabble, possibly not recognize our desperate need to be guided by the intellectual giants of the far left? How dare we imagine ourselves capable of making our own decisions?? :rolleyes:

No- I'm well aware you're not attacking me-I understood what you meant and have re-read what I've posted a few times because of it.I've disagreed with you a few times before and have never known you to attack me, no matter what our opinions were. You're among the very few in here that I respect, despite the fact we often arent agreeing on political matters.
I have noticed though, we agree on the things that are more important to me, like some day-to-day matters, personal preferences.
And I will admit-I'm much better making my point in person- It is actually more confusing for me in here.

Politics matter very little to me.

And by the way-thanks for taking the time to make sure I was aware you were being civil. You're the perfect example of people who dont agree but dont need to treat each other like trash.


:)

Got to do my bit - tempers are already frayed enough. :)

I have respected you as a debator, even - as you say - when we are on different sides. Which is why it seemed worth mentioning that you might not be 'hitting the mark' you were aiming at.

But, thanks for kind words, friend. Maybe you can be an example among 'hotter heads'. :)

If you're trying to make your next reply to me, "I see you are confused so I am the winner," you have succeeded. The bottom line is, I had to make that point about how people buy into the idea that left-wingers are cowards and direct it at somebody, and you made yourself an available target. Whether or not it was sarcastic was irrelevant. Granted, my post turned into a rant about something else, so whatever.

Besides, I don't think most left-wingers play D&D. I tried it; it's really kind of boring.

*L* I'm not trying to win- There is no "winning" in here. My goal was to state what I think. And I feel at this stage in life, my opinions are worth soemthing.
But dont confuse that for me trying to stuff it down your throat. I'm not a big winner of hearts and minds.

You pissed me off and without re-hashing it all, I most likely said something back.

I'm well aware there are cowards in all shapes and sizes and I'm not making generalizations there. For real.

And I always got the impression DnD was boring. *L* I never played it myself. I was too busy beating up nerds...




at chess

The phrase wasn't "mispoken." Kerry, like many others on the left, is an arrogant, pseudo-intellectual snob. He and the others on the left, especially those in Hollyweird, have trouble comprehending how the rest of us can possibly do without their superior insight and intellect. He was simply revealing his true stripes when he made the "gaffe."

Why, don't you realize that the majority of voters in America are totally incapable of managing our own lives without the munificient wisdom and superior intellect of the left? How can we, the great unwashed, uneducated rabble, possibly not recognize our desperate need to be guided by the intellectual giants of the far left? How dare we imagine ourselves capable of making our own decisions?? :rolleyes:


Seriously... was there even a funeral for the 'centrist' pose?

And you talk about people following the far-left blogs? Fuck you, man. You're not worthy to carry Kerry's sweaty jock strap, and I don't even like the guy. You've got Limbaugh on the brain and O'Reilly on the ass. Give it up.And you teach on a college campus?

You aren't qualified to hold such a position. Eut brings up legitimate points about a politician and you respond with the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Your post is definite flaming and shows your true colors. The fact that you are allowed to speak in front of a class is scary.

And you teach on a college campus?

You aren't qualified to hold such a position. Eut brings up legitimate points about a politician and you respond with the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Your post is definite flaming and shows your true colors. The fact that you are allowed to speak in front of a class is scary.

This is the 3rd thread on this topic in two days. It's been covered.

And you teach on a college campus?

You aren't qualified to hold such a position. Eut brings up legitimate points about a politician and you respond with the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Your post is definite flaming and shows your true colors. The fact that you are allowed to speak in front of a class is scary.

Legitimate points? Its a rehash of all the neocon speak thats been said in the last few days AND already debated on here. What exactly were the legitimate points?

And you teach on a college campus?

You aren't qualified to hold such a position. Eut brings up legitimate points about a politician and you respond with the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Your post is definite flaming and shows your true colors. The fact that you are allowed to speak in front of a class is scary.

Claiming that Kerry wounded himself is not a legitimate point. It's libel, plain and simple. So don't give me any crap about the level of my response to him. Go back to your life of watching Chicago sports and defending Republicans no matter how bad they fuck shit up.

P.S. If you're so concerned about my flaming of Eutrusca, do what everyone else has the right to do--report me.

Seriously... was there even a funeral for the 'centrist' pose?

Rant on, oh evil one. Heh!

The results of my political matrix test speak for themselves [ see my signature block below ]. I just happen to hate the sort of pseudo-intellectual snobbery proffered by Kerry and his ilk. I am perfectly capable of making my own decisions, thank you, and anyone ( left OR right ) who arrogates that decision-making to themselves incurs my approbation. Case closed.

:)

Got to do my bit - tempers are already frayed enough. :)

I have respected you as a debator, even - as you say - when we are on different sides. Which is why it seemed worth mentioning that you might not be 'hitting the mark' you were aiming at.

But, thanks for kind words, friend. Maybe you can be an example among 'hotter heads'. :)

Thanks.

I really dont feel I'm much of a debator. I'm much better off in a thread about how we do things or what we prefer.
I hate getting caught up in a political arguement. No one ever really "wins" and only the voters "lose".

plus- at 39- I'm used to being wrong nearly as often as I'm right. I'm a good winner and not a sore loser.

And you teach on a college campus?

You aren't qualified to hold such a position. Eut brings up legitimate points about a politician and you respond with the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Your post is definite flaming and shows your true colors. The fact that you are allowed to speak in front of a class is scary.

LMFAO!!! :D

There is a way for you to redeem yourself, you know--retract the libelous statements about Kerry's service. Bitch all you want about what he did after he got back; that's fair game. But don't suggest that he wounded himself while in combat. You wouldn't stand for it if someone suggested that of you, and you shouldn't stand for it when someone suggests it of another man who served honorably.

Here's your chance to be intellectually and morally honest for once. What are you going to do?

There is strong evidence out there to support Eut's statements. All three of his purple hearts are very questionable.

Why don't you just grow up and try to understand the facts here instead of going on a flame war here? What has Eut done to you?

There is strong evidence out there to support Eut's statements. All three of his purple hearts are very questionable.

Why don't you just grow up and try to understand the facts here instead of going on a flame war here? What has Eut done to you?

Where is that from then?

There is strong evidence out there to support Eut's statements. All three of his purple hearts are very questionable.

Why don't you just grow up and try to understand the facts here instead of going on a flame war here? What has Eut done to you?
Bullshit. There has never been any evidence of that. There has only been slander and innuendo from the far-right on Kerry's service. And suckers like you and Eutrusca bought it because you wanted to believe that somehow Bush was the better candidate. You wanted to be fooled, and you were, so congratulations.

Claiming that Kerry wounded himself is not a legitimate point. It's libel, plain and simple. So don't give me any crap about the level of my response to him. Go back to your life of watching Chicago sports and defending Republicans no matter how bad they fuck shit up.

P.S. If you're so concerned about my flaming of Eutrusca, do what everyone else has the right to do--report me.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a recollection of several men that were there offering testimony as to Kerry's representation of the facts.
I'm also aware of those that were present that supported his versions of events.

There is some legitimacy and its not really libel.

I'm not a big lover of how either party handles things.

And I've already seen how vehemently certain people defend democrats no matter how bad THEY fuck shit up.

Personally-I hate people that report other people-especially when the ones being reported are fully aware of what they are doing . Just stop- its not making your opinion look any better. Its making you appear hysterical and taking away from anything you might actually be right about.

Rant on, oh evil one. Heh!

The results of my political matrix test speak for themselves [ see my signature block below ]. I just happen to hate the sort of pseudo-intellectual snobbery proffered by Kerry and his ilk. I am perfectly capable of making my own decisions, thank you, and anyone ( left OR right ) who arrogates that decision-making to themselves incurs my approbation. Case closed.

The results of your political matrix test? Is that accredited? You are kidding, right?

You hate the pseudo-intellectual etc... and yet you tar everyone further 'left' (oh the irony, in a nation of two conservative parties) than your own position with that brush.

You have a lot to say about the evils of 'the left' (again, I laugh), but little to say about the evils of the (further) 'right'. I notice you don't comment on Bush doing exactly the things he claimed were Kerry's electoral weaknesses (the idea of 'changing-horses-midstream', and 'flip-flopping').

You are not a centrist. Any test that says you are is wrong, or was based on incorrect data.

Where is that from then?

I highly recommend you read the book Unfit for Command. Whether or not you agree with the author's points of view, there are legitimate facts brought to light on the nature of his wounds.

His first 2 were caused by M203 fragments. This is an American weapon that was fired by Kerry in these engagements. The enemy didn't have these weapons. There is evidence that Kerry wounded himself on those 2 occasions. The 3rd wound was nothing more than a cut. A man on that same mission broke a leg and didn't request a purple heart.

I couldn't give a shit less about GWB. At the very least he's incapable of stringing more than ten words together in a fully comprehensible manner. As I've repeatedly stated in the past, I voted for Bush as the lesser of two evils, Kerry being the greater.

Exactly the reason I voted for Kerry - I saw Bush as the greater of two evils. Why, if more people had just gotten the idea to put our votes on a decent third-party candidate, we might still be in this situation, but both parties might have had a shit fit from a legitimate (and I mean moreso than Perot) third-party candidate. Too bad such a move could never be organized; too many people have given up hope. It looks like we both have given up hope.

The phrase wasn't "mispoken." Kerry, like many others on the left, is an arrogant, pseudo-intellectual snob. He and the others on the left, especially those in Hollyweird, have trouble comprehending how the rest of us can possibly do without their superior insight and intellect. He was simply revealing his true stripes when he made the "gaffe."

Why, don't you realize that the majority of voters in America are totally incapable of managing our own lives without the munificient wisdom and superior intellect of the left? How can we, the great unwashed, uneducated rabble, possibly not recognize our desperate need to be guided by the intellectual giants of the far left? How dare we imagine ourselves capable of making our own decisions?? :rolleyes:

His true stripes are that he says things in the worst possible way. "I actually voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it." Huh? He's almost as bad a speaker as Dubya. Tie goes to Dubya because Kerry at least says "nuclear" correctly, but it's really not that far off.

And frankly, lots of people seem to do just fine without the "superior intellect" of the left. Lots of them seem to prefer the fearmongering and pandering to hatred of the right. How can we, the educated citizenry of America, possibly have missed that day in class where they told us how important it was to wage war with those folks in Iraq to get the WMDs...err, I mean to avenge 9/11...wait, I mean to liberate the oppressed people...yeah, that's the ticket! And how dare those of us who oppose such an action not be denounced and shouted down as traitors. And how dare we ask the Bush administration to follow proper protocol by...gee, I don't know...getting an effing warrant before he taps a phone line...something that's probably a lot simpler than it sounds...and actually grease the diplomatic wheels with other countries before pulling off a maverick move like invading Iraq.

The point I am making here is that we, on the left, are just as alienated by those on the right as those on the right are alienated by the left. We're made to look like we're at fault for every ill the country has - taxes are too high, the media is too liberal (right, because there's only one media source, and it's always liberally biased,) gay people want civil rights, and some people are annoyed at us for our foreign policy. And because lefties don't try to shout down their opponents, they lose. In 2004, they got the demonizing of the opposition part down but came across as too stuffy and unwilling to help (yeah, it all comes back to Kerry being a lousy speaker...should have picked Edwards.) In 2006, a lot of the business about Dems' track records seems to be less of an issue...I wonder what will come of those efforts.

I highly recommend you read the book Unfit for Command. Whether or not you agree with the author's points of view, there are legitimate facts brought to light on the nature of his wounds.

His first 2 were caused by M203 fragments. This is an American weapon that was fired by Kerry in these engagements. The enemy didn't have these weapons. There is evidence that Kerry wounded himself on those 2 occasions. The 3rd wound was nothing more than a cut. A man on that same mission broke a leg and didn't request a purple heart.

Can't read it or comment on it unless you tell me who wrote it

Bullshit. There has never been any evidence of that. There has only been slander and innuendo from the far-right on Kerry's service. And suckers like you and Eutrusca bought it because you wanted to believe that somehow Bush was the better candidate. You wanted to be fooled, and you were, so congratulations.

I didn't have to believe Bush was the better candidate. Bush certainly has his flaws, but I'd take a turd sandwich over Kerry any day of the week. Kerry is simply a despicable human being.

Can't read it or comment on it unless you tell me who wrote it

John O'Neil wrote the book in 2004. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

John O'Neil wrote the book in 2004. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

I'm not American

Claiming that Kerry wounded himself is not a legitimate point. It's libel, plain and simple. So don't give me any crap about the level of my response to him. Go back to your life of watching Chicago sports and defending Republicans no matter how bad they fuck shit up.

P.S. If you're so concerned about my flaming of Eutrusca, do what everyone else has the right to do--report me.

He did report you -- and rightfully so. You're behaving like a complete jackass. Hopefully, the mods will toss you to the curb. Too bad you'll still be allowed to "teach" impressionable minds, though. I pity the students in your classes.

He did report you -- and rightfully so. You're behaving like a complete jackass. Hopefully, the mods will toss you to the curb. Too bad you'll still be allowed to "teach" impressionable minds, though. I pity the students in your classes.

How is your comment on not only him but his profession any less of a flame then anything I have seen him say in this thread

He did report you -- and rightfully so. You're behaving like a complete jackass. Hopefully, the mods will toss you to the curb. Too bad you'll still be allowed to "teach" impressionable minds, though. I pity the students in your classes.

My students seem to love me. I get among the highest student evaluation of performance scores in my department semester after semester.

And if calling someone out for libeling a public figure is flaming, so be it.

Thanks.

I really dont feel I'm much of a debator. I'm much better off in a thread about how we do things or what we prefer.
I hate getting caught up in a political arguement. No one ever really "wins" and only the voters "lose".

plus- at 39- I'm used to being wrong nearly as often as I'm right. I'm a good winner and not a sore loser.

Presenting a clear argument. Explaining it. Defending it. Rationalising. Admitting you were wrong, if you were. I'd say that was the 'requirement' for good debate.

It shouldn't be about winning and losing... just about exploring 'truth'.

I have problems in political threads, also - none of the American 'alternatives' please me. By the standards of the two main parties, I am non-Partisan. I relise some peple in EVERY camp are looking for the same thing from politics that I would like to see... a 'perfect' world... we just all have different ideas of how that might be reached, and what it might look like.

The problem is - every 'camp' also has people (maybe even a majority) that are not in it for the 'perfect world'... but for the power or prestige of part politics in the here-and-now.

John O'Neil wrote the book in 2004. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

One quick google search later reveals asite with this byline.......

"For thirty years National Review Book Service has been the #1 source for great works by the best conservative thinkers. "

So no agenda there then.............

How is your comment on not only him but his profession any less of a flame then anything I have seen him say in this thread

Never called out those in his profession.

LMAO! :rolleyes:

I live here, I talk to Dems, I know how some ( perhaps even most ) of them think. You don't have the opportunity to do so. What part of this confuses you?
The idea that a Dem would waste their time talking to the thick brickwall-like substance that constitutes your skull is what confuses us.

His first 2 were caused by M203 fragments. This is an American weapon that was fired by Kerry in these engagements. The enemy didn't have these weapons. There is evidence that Kerry wounded himself on those 2 occasions.

You think he shot himself with a 40mm grenade launcher?

Never called out those in his profession.

Sorry more clearly making fun of his ability to do his job

You think he shot himself with a 40mm grenade launcher?

LOL. I see he still has his legs so I'd say that was a no no..........

Bullshit. There has never been any evidence of that. There has only been slander and innuendo from the far-right on Kerry's service. And suckers like you and Eutrusca bought it because you wanted to believe that somehow Bush was the better candidate. You wanted to be fooled, and you were, so congratulations.

Nazz- the only evidence there will ever be to support or refute the validity of Kerry's purple heart debacle is the testimony of men that were there. Some vigorously supported him, some called him a phony.

You, I and Eutrusca will NEVER know the actual truth. Its likely at this point, only Kerry himself knows the truth.

I personally DID believe President Bush was a better candidate, as did more of those that voted in that election. I didnt want to be fooled and I dont think I was.
You could stop and consider maybe its someone else's opinion that you wanted to be fooled,and were by Kerry. Maybe they are right.

We can sit here and go back and forth until something else catches our interest and we move on. And it makes no difference, nor does it help, a 20 yr old guy or girl,wearing a US Marine uniform, thats about to be immolated by a fanatic's IED.
I'd like to hear the elected politicians working hard-as the yare paid to do- to make whats already beeen undertaken work-NOT talk about what a mistake it is or was- to stop the mistakes from this point on.

We still have a chance to make this something to be proud of.

Sorry more clearly making fun of his ability to do his job

Honestly, I don't know what subject he teaches. If it's Political Science, though...holy fuckin' shit.

I saw below that you recommended Unfit for Command, the hit piece written by Jerome Corsi and John O'Neill, both Nixon operatives who attacked Kerry's antiwar work post-Vietnam--though surprisingly, not his service at the time. I wonder why they waited 30 years to bring that up? Could it be because they knew those kinds of attacks so close to the actual service would be seen for the bullshit they were?

And I wandered over to Moderation. I see your distaste for people who report others didn't stop you from reporting me. :rolleyes:

Take a deep breath and edit this post- you have the wrong guy.

I dont recommend reading, nor do I report anyone.

It wasnt ME, honest.

Spin, spin, spin. I'm a combat veteran and I would MUCH rather have a stupid Republican President than a stupid Democrat President.

I'm not a combat veteren, and I would prefer a president who isn't stupid.

And really you have no business -whatsoever - of accusing anyone else of "spin" when that's pretty much all you do whenever you start discussing Democrats vs Republicans.

Take a deep breath and edit this post- you have the wrong guy.

I dont recommend reading, nor do I report anyone.

It wasnt ME, honest.Did I quote the wrong guy? Sorry--I was replying to IDF. Seriously, I'm sorry. Hit the wrong spot on the screen I guess.

Spin, spin, spin.

So anyone with an opinion you don't agree with is spinning? Cute, how very Bill O'Reilly of you.

The results of my political matrix test speak for themselves [ see my signature block below ].
Awesome! A cutesy pointless online test 'proves' you're a "Centrist".

How I wish I could live a life as simplistic as yours. One where all your attributes are 'proven' from online test results. Cause then I'd be the world's best lover, have a Goethe-level IQ, be a millionaire several times over, be in my ideal job as an astronaut/cowboy/rap singer and have a 10" cock.
All due to online tests.
whooo.

The "Waffle?" :confused:

Did I quote the wrong guy? Sorry--I was replying to IDF. Seriously, I'm sorry. Hit the wrong spot on the screen I guess.

It happens. But it is a good reason to pause for a moment.

He did report you -- and rightfully so. You're behaving like a complete jackass. Hopefully, the mods will toss you to the curb. Too bad you'll still be allowed to "teach" impressionable minds, though. I pity the students in your classes.
Yeah, it'd be awful to be in a class being taught by someone who is knowledgeable, perceptive, rational and able to debate issues intelligently.

Lord help us if we encounter someone whose opinion differs from our own! The mere thought of attending university to open and expand one's mind is too frightening to contemplate.

Much better to be led by the nose, eh?

The "Waffle?" :confused:

Sadly, not this guy.

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/wiysteria/Skaven/waffler_3.jpg
This would have been a far different thread if it had been.

The "Waffle?" :confused:

Relitivly stupid derogitory name for Kerry

Yeah, it'd be awful to be in a class being taught by someone who is knowledgeable, perceptive, rational and able to debate issues intelligently.

The Nazz is none of the above.

The Nazz is none of the above.

And you criticize him for flaming? :confused:

Well, the ignoble Mr. Kerry stepped on his own petard again, this time insulting the intelligence of every member of the US Armed Forces. This is the man so many of you thought should be President. GROAN!

No he didn't. He was making fun of the stupidity of the administration that got us into that obviously unnecessary war. It's being spun as an insult to the troops in order to try to win some votes back for the republican party.

Relitivly stupid derogitory name for Kerry

ok-terrific !

Yeah, it'd be awful to be in a class being taught by someone who is knowledgeable, perceptive, rational and able to debate issues intelligently.

Lord help us if we encounter someone whose opinion differs from our own! The mere thought of attending university to open and expand one's mind is too frightening to contemplate.

Much better to be led by the nose, eh?

Like I said, I get great evaluations from my students, and that's despite being a pretty tough grader and dealing with difficult subjects in my composition classes. And though IDF and Cluichistan would probably never believe it, I largely stay away from politics in my classes, even when I'm teaching political poetry.

No he didn't. He was making fun of the stupidity of the administration that got us into that obviously unnecessary war. It's being spun as an insult to the troops in order to try to win some votes back for the republican party.

DCD- then he has to appologize for being the worst joke-teller in the world.

I hope he has another furious press conference today. Everytime he speaks, he wins more votes for the Republican party.

Like I said, I get great evaluations from my students, and that's despite being a pretty tough grader and dealing with difficult subjects in my composition classes. And though IDF and Cluichistan would probably never believe it, I largely stay away from politics in my classes, even when I'm teaching political poetry.

For what it's worth, if I attended the school you taught at, I'd readily apply for your class. I bet you're a hell of a teacher. :)

Everytime he speaks, he wins more votes for the Republican party.

Which is exactly why I want him to keep his mouth shut.

Like I said, I get great evaluations from my students, and that's despite being a pretty tough grader and dealing with difficult subjects in my composition classes. And though IDF and Cluichistan would probably never believe it, I largely stay away from politics in my classes, even when I'm teaching political poetry.


You teach lit then?

Like I said, I get great evaluations from my students, and that's despite being a pretty tough grader and dealing with difficult subjects in my composition classes. And though IDF and Cluichistan would probably never believe it, I largely stay away from politics in my classes, even when I'm teaching political poetry.

thats gotta be a good feeling when students respect and admire you.


But- when you said "political poetry" I puked a little in my mouth. :p

Political poetry is probably what I'll be sentenced to in Hell.

Tsk. You really should try to use some facts instead of the propagandistic lies of far left blogs. GWB served in the Air National Guard at a time when he could have been called to active duty at any time. He definitely was not a "draft dodger." But then, it's pointless to confuse with the facts those whose minds have been made up almost since birth. Sigh.

You're half right. Bush is no dodger. He's a deserter - who surrounds hismself with chickenhawks.

Kerry is no "war hero!" He was a glory hound who faked at least two of his three wounds to get enough Purple Hearts to bail out on his men and return to the US so he could call them "war criminals." He's a lying, cheating asshole who married twice into wealth so he would have enough money to buy public office. I wouldn't waste a bullet on the son-of-a-bitch.

Unlike the deserter in chief, who you inexplicably support.

Which is exactly why I want him to keep his mouth shut.

Most politicians are better off with saying less. I'm surprised they arent well aware of that,considering most are lawyers and salesman.

And though IDF and Cluichistan would probably never believe it, I largely stay away from politics in my classes, even when I'm teaching political poetry.
Well, I doubt they can comprehend the idea that someone might be so professional in their teaching as to leave their own personal views and beliefs at the door.

But then again, in their defence, I've met quite a few people who can't handle that concept.

t
Political poetry is probably what I'll be sentenced to in Hell.

You protest too much... perhaps you are a closet political poet... or a political poet deep-down, who just hasn't got in touch with that side of himself yet...

;)

thats gotta be a good feeling when students respect and admire you.


But- when you said "political poetry" I puked a little in my mouth. :p

Political poetry is probably what I'll be sentenced to in Hell.
Naw. Probably just endless, pointless debating on right-wing forums.

Well, I doubt they can comprehend the idea that someone might be so professional in their teaching as to leave their own personal views and beliefs at the door.

But then again, in their defence, I've met quite a few people who can't handle that concept.

Yeah, that notion makes my head explode. You're far beyond me in intellectual capacity, clearly. :rolleyes:

DCD- then he has to appologize for being the worst joke-teller in the world.

That's what you get when you ruin your own punchline...

He should leave the comedy routine to the comedians :cool:

You protest too much... perhaps you are a closet political poet... or a political poet deep-down, who just hasn't got in touch with that side of himself yet...

;)

"and when I think about politics,
I touch myself...oooo" *L*

Maybe some political limmericks. I'm not very poetic.

You teach lit then?

Lit, Creative Writing, Composition and Rhetoric for the most part. I've done some Tech Writing, Advanced Comp and Creative Non-Fiction teaching in the past.

"and when I think about politics,
I touch myself...oooo" *L*

Maybe some political limmericks. I'm not very poetic.

Oooh, kudos on the Divynils reference. :)

Political haiku?

Lit, Creative Writing, Composition and Rhetoric for the most part. I've done some Tech Writing, Advanced Comp and Creative Non-Fiction teaching in the past.

I trust then that, unlike a lot of my lit profs when I was at uni, you keep your politics out of the classroom.

That's what you get when you ruin your own punchline...

He should leave the comedy routine to the comedians :cool:

Yeah-and at the same time, comedians should leave the political routine to the politicians.
Though they both work in the same medium-bullshit.

thats gotta be a good feeling when students respect and admire you.


But- when you said "political poetry" I puked a little in my mouth. :p

Political poetry is probably what I'll be sentenced to in Hell.

Political poetry can be very good--it can also be very bad. It's a high risk/reward situation. Yeats's "Easter, 1916" is an example, I believe, of good political poetry, as is his "An Irish Airman Foresees His Death." Allen Ginsburg's "America" is, in my opinion, an example of political poetry gone horribly wrong, because it lacks any sense of scope or discipline.

Political poetry can be very good--it can also be very bad. It's a high risk/reward situation. Yeats's "Easter, 1916" is an example, I believe, of good political poetry, as is his "An Irish Airman Foresees His Death." Allen Ginsburg's "America" is, in my opinion, an example of political poetry gone horribly wrong, because it lacks any sense of scope or discipline.


Gotta agree with ya there.

Worth looking at the (one of the) other thread(s) on the same topic:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=505457

Euts whole argument is targetting a strawman.

Tiens, tiens. Quelle surprise!

I trust then that, unlike a lot of my lit profs when I was at uni, you keep your politics out of the classroom.
Would you believe me if I said I did?

Politics comes in to any discussion of literature--it's impossible to treat the subject seriously if you cut it out. But my students never feel threatened by my politics, nor do they feel like they have to regurgitate my point of view in their writing. I have had plenty of situations where students disagreed with my point of view and still got good grades--I grade execution, not ideology.

Oooh, kudos on the Divynils reference. :)

Political haiku?

We just proved our ages.

Somewhere, there is a video tape of me, impersonating Arnold Shwartzenegger singing that song. It will surface shortly after I attain some office.

Gotta agree with ya there.

But another good example of a political poem that shows a sense of scope and discipline while following my own political views more closely is Denise Levertov's "Life at War."

Political poetry can be very good--it can also be very bad. It's a high risk/reward situation. Yeats's "Easter, 1916" is an example, I believe, of good political poetry, as is his "An Irish Airman Foresees His Death." Allen Ginsburg's "America" is, in my opinion, an example of political poetry gone horribly wrong, because it lacks any sense of scope or discipline.

I'll take your word for it. To me, it'd would be like Steve Martin's character in "Planes,Trains and Automobiles" speculating he'd rather sit through endless insurance seminars, and smile because he'd rather not be with John Candy's character.
I wish I could quote it, but dont want to ruin a classic.

Its almost time to watch that movie.

Would you believe me if I said I did?

Probably not, no. ;)

Would you believe me if I said I did?

Politics comes in to any discussion of literature--it's impossible to treat the subject seriously if you cut it out. But my students never feel threatened by my politics, nor do they feel like they have to regurgitate my point of view in their writing. I have had plenty of situations where students disagreed with my point of view and still got good grades--I grade execution, not ideology.

I believe your personal opinions have to emerge at some point, wether intended or not. We're all human.

I'll take your word for it. To me, it'd would be like Steve Martin's character in "Planes,Trains and Automobiles" speculating he'd rather sit through endless insurance seminars, and smile because he'd rather not be with John Candy's character.
I wish I could quote it, but dont want to ruin a classic.

Its almost time to watch that movie.

A classic, it is. In fact, I may watch it myself later today...

We just proved our ages.

Somewhere, there is a video tape of me, impersonating Arnold Shwartzenegger singing that song. It will surface shortly after I attain some office.

Hey - there is nothing wrong with admitting we are 'of an age' to appreciate the Divynils. I must, of course, now consult YouTube to see if I can find the incriminating evidence of your faux pas (pretending to be Arnie). :)

(Only thing better than the Divynils version of that classic is, of course, the Rolf Harris cover version...)

You think he shot himself with a 40mm grenade launcher?

He didn't directly shoot himself, but he fired it at a rock and a fragment of the grenade struck his leg. If you knew anything about grenades, you would know that most grenade wounds are nothing more than shrapnel wounds. (that is if you are a meter or further away)

I believe your personal opinions have to emerge at some point, wether intended or not. We're all human.

Of course they do. I'd imagine all my students know that I voted for Jim Davis and Bill Nelson in the elections, but they also know that I wuldn't hold it against them if they voted for Crist and Harris--okay, maybe if they voted for Harris, because that woman is insane. ;)

Sadly, I've lowered my respect for IDF and Eut to a severe but deserved zero. I do regret that it's come to this.

Spin, spin, spin. Around and around we go, and were we stop is attacking the messenger when we don't like the message ... again!

And just a few days before Veterans Day. How utterly revaltory of the true thinking of John Kerry and of the Democrat approach to those who serve.

The truth hurts, don't it! But then again, I'm just one of those poor, "uneducated" slobs who wound up in Vietnam, so what the fuck do *I* know, right?

Even the members of Kerry's own party are distancing themselves from this asshole, cancelling speaking appearances and telling this buttwipe what the score is:

“This is an example of politics at its worst,” said Scott Kleeb, a Democratic candidate for Congress in Nebraska. “Many of us have serious concerns over the current situation in Iraq, but no one should question the intelligence and dedication of our troops. Senator Kerry’s remark was disrespectful and insulting.”

GOP Sen. John McCain, like Kerry a decorated Vietnam veteran and a potential 2008 rival, said while campaigning for Republican candidates in Indiana that "the suggestion that only the least educated Americans would agree to serve in the military and fight in Iraq is an insult to every Soldier serving in combat today."

Spin, spin, spin. He said it. He meant it. It was revalatory of how he and lots of other Dems think. Live with it.

I live here. I talk with Dems. You don't. End of story.

LMAO! :rolleyes:

I live here, I talk to Dems, I know how some ( perhaps even most ) of them think. You don't have the opportunity to do so. What part of this confuses you?

He's not speaking for the party officially, he is, however, voicing things many of the party faithful only think for fear of turning off the average American voter.

Spin, spin, spin. I'm a combat veteran and I would MUCH rather have a stupid Republican President than a stupid Democrat President.

Annnnd ... your proof???

Ah! Spoken like a true spin-miester! Congratulations.

I take exception to the following terms:

"Pointless war." [ You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how inane. ]

"Meaningless bloodbath" [ see above ]

"Cut veterans benefits." [ I'm a veteran and I know of no benefit cuts ]

"Insult soldiers" [ That's Mr. Kerry's modus operadi. ]

"Credulous Americans" [ Uh ... over here, we call them "voters." ]

"Simplistic." [ Whether you like it or not, some things don't require a rocket scientist to understand. Careful, your intellectual arrogance is showing, but then, that's a rather common ocurrance on here. Sigh. ]

Kerry is no "war hero!" He was a glory hound who faked at least two of his three wounds to get enough Purple Hearts to bail out on his men and return to the US so he could call them "war criminals." He's a lying, cheating asshole who married twice into wealth so he would have enough money to buy public office. I wouldn't waste a bullet on the son-of-a-bitch.

That may be so, but it would only be because lefties are so good at criticising that which they are too cowardly to participate in.

Tsk. You really should try to use some facts instead of the propagandistic lies of far left blogs. GWB served in the Air National Guard at a time when he could have been called to active duty at any time. He definitely was not a "draft dodger." But then, it's pointless to confuse with the facts those whose minds have been made up almost since birth. Sigh.

Ignore him. Like most lefties, he finds neo-cons under his bed at night.

LMAO! Suuure he does! Riiiight! :rolleyes:

Using "Kerry" and "honorably" in the same paragraph is a classic oxymoron.

Aaahahahahahahahhahahahhaha! OMG! That's hilarious! LMAO!

LMAO! :D

I don't have to defend my service to anyone, much less you. It's a matter of public record. If you were as concerned with the facts as you so often claim to be, you would at least make a gesture in the general direction of finding out. But then, this is what I have come to expect of you and others of your ilk.

Oh? And that "actual issue" would be???

"None so blind as those who will not see." Sigh. :(

Knock yourself out, dude. It's what lefties do best.

What am I going to do? Stick to what I know, of course, just like I always have.

I couldn't give a shit less about GWB. At the very least he's incapable of stringing more than ten words together in a fully comprehensible manner. As I've repeatedly stated in the past, I voted for Bush as the lesser of two evils, Kerry being the greater.

The phrase wasn't "mispoken." Kerry, like many others on the left, is an arrogant, pseudo-intellectual snob. He and the others on the left, especially those in Hollyweird, have trouble comprehending how the rest of us can possibly do without their superior insight and intellect. He was simply revealing his true stripes when he made the "gaffe."

Why, don't you realize that the majority of voters in America are totally incapable of managing our own lives without the munificient wisdom and superior intellect of the left? How can we, the great unwashed, uneducated rabble, possibly not recognize our desperate need to be guided by the intellectual giants of the far left? How dare we imagine ourselves capable of making our own decisions?? :rolleyes:

Rant on, oh evil one. Heh!

The results of my political matrix test speak for themselves [ see my signature block below ]. I just happen to hate the sort of pseudo-intellectual snobbery proffered by Kerry and his ilk. I am perfectly capable of making my own decisions, thank you, and anyone ( left OR right ) who arrogates that decision-making to themselves incurs my approbation. Case closed.

LMFAO!!! :D

considering you feel so strongly about this subject i'm suprised you have such little of substance to say. it's either party rhetoric or "you're just wrong because i say so" type posts. very boring.

You're the reason that multi-quote thing needs to go away.

considering you feel so strongly about this subject i'm suprised you have such little of substance to say. it's either party rhetoric or "you're just wrong because i say so" type posts. very boring.

Its no where near as boring as your total re-cap. You're not teaching Eutrusca any lesson. He has his firm opinion, through trial and error that works for him.
The constant kicking and picking at him annoys the rest of us.

Yeah-and at the same time, comedians should leave the political routine to the politicians.
Though they both work in the same medium-bullshit.

At least with the comedians, you know not to take them seriously ;)

You're the reason that multi-quote thing needs to go away.

why? cuz i used it to show how baseless this whole exchange has been?

that'd be the first time i've used it aswell, and about the only reason i can see for using it.

Sadly, I've lowered my respect for IDF and Eut to a severe but deserved zero. I do regret that it's come to this.

So you base your level of respect for individuals on political opinions. You really need to grow up.

Sadly, I've lowered my respect for IDF and Eut to a severe but deserved zero. I do regret that it's come to this.

sadly, you're under the impression either is interested in your respect.

Its no where near as boring as your total re-cap. You're not teaching Eutrusca any lesson. He has his firm opinion, through trial and error that works for him.
The constant kicking and picking at him annoys the rest of us.

sadly, you're under the impression either is interested in your respect.

I'm learning a lesson already - Eutrusca is too weak to defend himself and needs you to be his cheerleader. :)

So you base your level of respect for individuals on political opinions. You really need to grow up.

What else should we base it on? Taste in hats?

I'm learning a lesson already - Eutrusca is too weak to defend himself and needs you to be his cheerleader. :)

Eut's weak? News to me. Eut's got cojones of stone. He doesn't need a cheerleader, though I suspect he'd like one bouncing up and down on his lap. ;)

The constant kicking and picking at him annoys the rest of us.

That's kinda the risk you take when you...ya know...start the thread in the first place.

So you base your level of respect for individuals on political opinions. You really need to grow up.

No, it's based on seeing facts and analyzing them without a blue or red filter on your eyes. You and Eut have shown a terrible lack of that ability.

sadly, you're under the impression either is interested in your respect.

I'm sorry, do you need attention? I wasn't aware that interest dictated whether or not something should be said. You're a rather silly person, aren't you? Not quite as ignorant and threatening as Eut, yet not as good at putting up an intellectual front as IDF - you must be so lonely, stuck in the middle..

Eut's got cojones of stone.

Eutrusca is too weak to defend himself and needs you to be his cheerleader.

Congratulations, you've just proved his point.

Eut's weak? News to me. Eut's got cojones of stone. He doesn't need a cheerleader, though I suspect he'd like one bouncing up and down on his lap. ;)

Which has nothing to do with his strengths or weaknesses on a DEBATE form. (or at least not direct relation to the ability to debate)

At least with the comedians, you know not to take them seriously ;)

I dont take politicians seriously either. They make specific promises from Sept to October...by the following March, they are barely making an effort to make excuses of why they have broken every promise they made.

I mean-what are you gonna do? Fire them? Short of federal crimes,sadly, no.
We're all too busy trying to make a living and raise our kids.

Way to quote me in part, asshat.

Congratulations, you've just proved his point.

Lol I did not notice that ... nice

What else should we base it on? Taste in hats?

If I judged people by their taste in hats, I would think more highly of Mobutu Sese Seko than anyone else. But I don't. I think he's a douchebag. :p

I'm learning a lesson already - Eutrusca is too weak to defend himself and needs you to be his cheerleader. :)

No-I'm certainly no cheerleader- but, believe it or not, gnats farting give me a headache. If they made any valid points I'd listen.

So far- insignificant flatulence.

No, it's based on seeing facts and analyzing them without a blue or red filter on your eyes. You and Eut have shown a terrible lack of that ability.




LOL, it appears that most of the people on this forum have a filter in their eyes, they just have one which fits your own. You sir are nothing but a hipocrite.

I'm sorry, do you need attention? I wasn't aware that interest dictated whether or not something should be said. You're a rather silly person, aren't you? Not quite as ignorant and threatening as Eut, yet not as good at putting up an intellectual front as IDF - you must be so lonely, stuck in the middle..

No-silly would be if I chose to trade impotent barbs with an insolent pip-squeak.

Way to quote me in part, asshat.

I don't need to quote your protests that you're not felating Eut's hardon when I can simply quote the sucking noise that follows.

I'm sorry, do you need attention? I wasn't aware that interest dictated whether or not something should be said. You're a rather silly person, aren't you? Not quite as ignorant and threatening as Eut, yet not as good at putting up an intellectual front as IDF - you must be so lonely, stuck in the middle..

And what do you mean by intellectual front? I think my intelligence can be proven by my survival in the brutal world of Purdue Engineering.

LOL, it appears that most of the people on this forum have a filter in their eyes, they just have one which fits your own. You sir are nothing but a hipocrite.

Hypocrite.

Sorry, I'm a spelling Nazi.

No-I'm certainly no cheerleader- but, believe it or not, gnats farting give me a headache. If they made any valid points I'd listen.

So far- insignificant flatulence.

Of course you're no cheerleader - and Kerry is no waffle - and other posters are not gnats - this is known as a metaphor.

So far, whining about some random comment Kerry makes and using it to extrapolate yet another ranting thread about how Democrats are evil and stupid is insignificant flatulence. Or perhaps it's more significant in that it's US campaign politics at it's worst, and this kind of petty bullshit will determine the future of the US leadership.

At any rate, IDF and Eutrusca are big, big, big men and they don't need you to ... make statements in support of their personal character, particularly when you'd probably do the same for anyone as long as they are of your political persuasion.

Hypocrite.

Sorry, I'm a spelling Nazi.

Sorry, I'm majoring in Engineering, not Lit or some other easy Liberal Arts major.

We Engineers only know math, physics, MATLAB, and C.

I don't need to quote your protests that you're not felating Eut's hardon when I can simply quote the sucking noise that follows.

Um, yeah...run along, child. You've obviously got nothing to offer here.

Sorry, I'm majoring in Engineering, not Lit or some other easy Liberal Arts major.

We Engineers only know math, physics, MATLAB, and C.

lol, my opposite. When it comes to those things, I'm about as smart as a flea. :D

Um, yeah...run along, child. You've obviously got nothing to offer here.

Uninspired, unoriginal, and utterly lacking in artistic merit.

I award you no points.

LOL, it appears that most of the people on this forum have a filter in their eyes, they just have one which fits your own. You sir are nothing but a hipocrite.

Most do, yes, but they tend to be nice about it, and don't disregard opposing statements with a childish "nuh-uh!", and certainly it is a rare occasion for one to put gum in the opponent's hair for such a thing. Compare this, to Eut flaunting it quite happily, not caring how partisan he is, not caring if he's really right, just insisting, just asserting, just insulting.

I mostly don't respect you, not because you are just like him - you're not - but because you support him and what he says. I don't blame you as much, though practically speaking you're not any better than he is in such that you would agree with everything he says when he is so obviously blinded and ignorant. He has been disrespectful, dismissive, and apallingly arrogant to everyone who's disagreed with him on this thread, if not on every thread he's posted in - he's simply incapable of speaking civilly and logically, and for supporting him you go down just as far as he does.

lol, my opposite. When it comes to those things, I'm about as smart as a flea. :D

I guess we balance eachother out.

Me fail English? That's unpossible.

I guess we balance eachother out.

Me fail English? That's unpossible.

LOL :p

He didn't directly shoot himself, but he fired it at a rock and a fragment of the grenade struck his leg. If you knew anything about grenades, you would know that most grenade wounds are nothing more than shrapnel wounds. (that is if you are a meter or further away)

I assume you have photographic evidence of the incident? Forensic evidence of the offending rock?

As for your assertion that most grenade wounds are nothing but shrapnel wounds, at a range of greater than a meter...

I believe you are talking out of your arse... based not just on the testimony of someone I trust a LOT more than you, who served in the military... but also on weapon and ammo specs I have seen - describing 40mm ammunition having a fatality radius of 4 or 5 times the ridiculous figure you suggest, and a casualty radius of more than a hundred times (off the top of my head).

Hypocrite.

Sorry, I'm a spelling Nazi.

Am I the only won that finds it strange and indeed funny, that no one, and I mean no won, would admit to being a Nazi(umm err heh apart from those that are and do) but when prefixed with another word, in this instance speiling;) most people would gladly own up to being a Nazi.

I mean I'm somewhat of a doughnut nazi meself!

Most do, yes, but they tend to be nice about it, and don't disregard opposing statements with a childish "nuh-uh!", and certainly it is a rare occasion for one to put gum in the opponent's hair for such a thing. Compare this, to Eut flaunting it quite happily, not caring how partisan he is, not caring if he's really right, just insisting, just asserting, just insulting.

I mostly don't respect you, not because you are just like him - you're not - but because you support him and what he says. I don't blame you as much, though practically speaking you're not any better than he is in such that you would agree with everything he says when he is so obviously blinded and ignorant. He has been disrespectful, dismissive, and apallingly arrogant to everyone who's disagreed with him on this thread, if not on every thread he's posted in - he's simply incapable of speaking civilly and logically, and for supporting him you go down just as far as he does.

I do support Eut here because the facts he has been stating have been backed up by the book Unfit for Command. All debate on that book in this thread has been attacking the author for being a conservative with an agenda. That's nothing more than ad hominem and attacking the messenger. It's a logical fallacy. What I haven't seen is anyone disputing the claims from that book on Kerry's purple hearts. No one has disputed the fact that Kerry had to see 3 seperate doctors before one would sign the papers for him to recieve a purple heart. No one has really answered how he got wounded by the VC from M-203 fragments when only he fired one during the engagement.

Believe me, it might seem from your PoV that I have a filter over my eyes. (Perhaps I do, but then so do you and 90% of the people in this thread) Regardless, there is enough evidence here for Eut to make his claims. I might add that Kerry has not sued the author. There might be a reason for this.

Another day, another Bushevik rally lead by Commissar Forrest Horn.

Yawn.

I hope the view up there on Owl Creek Bridge looks purty.

I do support Eut here because the facts he has been stating have been backed up by the book Unfit for Command. All debate on that book in this thread has been attacking the author for being a conservative with an agenda. That's nothing more than ad hominem and attacking the messenger. It's a logical fallacy. What I haven't seen is anyone disputing the claims from that book on Kerry's purple hearts. No one has disputed the fact that Kerry had to see 3 seperate doctors before one would sign the papers for him to recieve a purple heart. No one has really answered how he got wounded by the VC from M-203 fragments when only he fired one during the engagement.

Believe me, it might seem from your PoV that I have a filter over my eyes. (Perhaps I do, but then so do you and 90% of the people in this thread) Regardless, there is enough evidence here for Eut to make his claims. I might add that Kerry has not sued the author. There might be a reason for this.

I haven't read the book, and I don't know the author, but that's irrelevant. I'm not speaking of the facts, I'm speaking of the manner in which Eut presents himself, and your encouragement of such mannerisms. He could be all-knowing and omnipotent - even though he's far from it - and I would still not respect him because he's a complete and utter ass about it. He shows no respect to others, and therefore will recieve none from me - for allowing yourself to be allied with him in such a way, neither will you.

I assume you have photographic evidence of the incident? Forensic evidence of the offending rock?

As for your assertion that most grenade wounds are nothing but shrapnel wounds, at a range of greater than a meter...

I believe you are talking out of your arse... based not just on the testimony of someone I trust a LOT more than you, who served in the military... but also on weapon and ammo specs I have seen - describing 40mm ammunition having a fatality radius of 4 or 5 times the ridiculous figure you suggest, and a casualty radius of more than a hundred times (off the top of my head).

Grenades are far less lethal than most people say. When a grenade explodes at 3 meters from you, its a crapshoot on whether or not you will be wounded at all. It's a matter of luck whether or not a fragment will strike you.

A grenade certainly CAN be lethal at 5 meters. It's just not likely going to be lethal from that range. According to Jim Dunnigan's "How to Make War," 90% of grenade wounds are non-lethal. BTW, he is my source on how lethal grenades are. They are great for wounding a group of enemies, but not great at killing them.

BTW, Kerry was firing a grenade and hit the rock on the shore. I am unsure of how far away it was, but it was likely at the furthest reaches of the grenade. He got hit by shrapnel from it, but it was his own weapon.

Too lazy to read all the hooplah and so on...

My two cents: Most American soldiers are from the low middle, to lower classes, right? People from the lower class are generally not as intelligent, due to living in poor areas, with poor schools. So thus this could be true, no?

Anyways, I think Kerry meant it as if you don't go into college and then get a great paying job, then the other alternative is to join the US armed service, which would lead you to Iraq.

Either way, it was a stupid mistake used by the right to divert attention of the real campaign issues. I am sure with in the next day or so, we will see a commercial talking about how all the Dems hate soldiers, and there goes the election

I haven't read the book, and I don't know the author, but that's irrelevant. I'm not speaking of the facts, I'm speaking of the manner in which Eut presents himself, and your encouragement of such mannerisms. He could be all-knowing and omnipotent - even though he's far from it - and I would still not respect him because he's a complete and utter ass about it. He shows no respect to others, and therefore will recieve none from me - for allowing yourself to be allied with him in such a way, neither will you.

I never once supported Eut's methods, just his opinions on Kerry, which I base on fact.

I do support Eut here because the facts he has been stating have been backed up by the book Unfit for Command. All debate on that book in this thread has been attacking the author for being a conservative with an agenda. That's nothing more than ad hominem and attacking the messenger. It's a logical fallacy.Now, if you had gone for one of those "easy" liberal arts majors, you'd know that ad hominem and "attacking the messenger" are one and the same. You'd also know that criticizing a book for having a hidden agenda is a legitimate criticism. Biased sources win no points.

Too lazy to read all the hooplah and so on...

My two cents: Most American soldiers are from the low middle, to lower classes, right? People from the lower class are generally not as intelligent, due to living in poor areas, with poor schools. So thus this could be true, no?

Anyways, I think Kerry meant it as if you don't go into college and then get a great paying job, then the other alternative is to join the US armed service, which would lead you to Iraq.

Either way, it was a stupid mistake used by the right to divert attention of the real campaign issues. I am sure with in the next day or so, we will see a commercial talking about how all the Dems hate soldiers, and there goes the election
I call bullshit on the soldiers being dumb. 99% of all US soldiers have high school diplomas. Compare that to 80% of the general population. All US military officers have a college degree (most are technical degrees like engineering). Most are now being encouraged to get masters degrees. Starting in 2008, all E-8s will be required to get a 4 year degree. The military is NOT full of dumbasses. Most enlisted men go to college after their enlistment period is up.

As for Kerry's "joke," even his fellow Dems in the House and Senate aren't buying that story.

Now, if you had gone for one of those "easy" liberal arts majors, you'd know that ad hominem and "attacking the messenger" are one and the same. You'd also know that criticizing a book for having a hidden agenda is a legitimate criticism. Biased sources win no points.

They do if they cite someone who was serving under Kerry's command and witnessed it first hand. He also interviewed Kerry's CO, who has no agenda as he has supported other Democrats in the past. The author's points have not been disputed.

I never once supported Eut's methods, just his opinions on Kerry, which I base on fact.

Then I suggest you support your facts, and distance yourself from Eut. Most likely, regardless of whether or not your facts or his assertions are true, he doesn't have any proof of either. Any decent person of either party seeing someone of his own party acting in such a way would behoove himself to let others know they disagree with the person, lest they be caught in the crossfires of ignorance and retaliation.

He may be right - and I'm not sure that he is - but he's an idiot, and a horrible person at that.

I applaud your presentation of what could be actual evidence amidst the mudslinging, but you must be aware of where you place yourself and be sure to make your moral stance known in the presence of such a person as Eut, otherwise no bystander could be faulted for seeing you as someone who agrees with him in manner and opinion.

Then I suggest you support your facts, and distance yourself from Eut. Most likely, regardless of whether or not your facts or his assertions are true, he doesn't have any proof of either. Any decent person of either party seeing someone of his own party acting in such a way would behoove himself to let others know they disagree with the person, lest they be caught in the crossfires of ignorance and retaliation.

He may be right - and I'm not sure that he is - but he's an idiot, and a horrible person at that.

I applaud your presentation of what could be actual evidence amidst the mudslinging, but you must be aware of where you place yourself and be sure to make your moral stance known in the presence of such a person as Eut, otherwise no bystander could be faulted for seeing you as someone who agrees with him in manner and opinion.
I have posted the facts about his wounds. No one has really been able to dispute them.

99% of all US soldiers have high school diplomas. Compare that to 80% of the general population. All US military officers have a college degree (most are technical degrees like engineering). Most are now being encouraged to get masters degrees. Starting in 2008, all E-8s will be required to get a 4 year degree. The military is NOT full of dumbasses. Most enlisted men go to college after their enlistment period is up.Surely you're not lauding the state of U.S. secondary public education. Isn't the poor quality of our students (it's the fault of the liberal teachers, I know, tsk tsk) a Republican talking point? School vouchers and all, eh?

Unless you've got figures on how many of the ex-GIJoes actually graduate, their majors, and their in-school GPAs, your point is woefully... well, pointless. Admission and attendance at most schools in the U.S. (for someone with ready funds to pay) isn't that great a hurdle.

As for Kerry's "joke," even his fellow Dems in the House and Senate aren't buying that story.Got proof? Because what I see, are folk up for election who are essentially saying, "man you may be right, but damn, don't piss off the right-wing nuts less than a week before election."

They do if they cite someone who was serving under Kerry's command and witnessed it first hand. He also interviewed Kerry's CO, who has no agenda as he has supported other Democrats in the past. The author's points have not been disputed.

Haven't been disputed? (http://www.google.com/search?q=debunk+unfit+for+command&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official) Spare me. Google is your friend. Everything in that book has been disputed, down to the an's and the's. It's a hit piece full of distortions and lies.

I have posted the facts about his wounds. No one has really been able to dispute them.

I'm sorry - when saying "support your facts", I meant to support them in the sense that I would assume you supported Eut, so in fact it would be the same as asserting independence of Eut's methods while showing your facts at the same time.

I do support Eut here because the facts he has been stating have been backed up by the book Unfit for Command. All debate on that book in this thread has been attacking the author for being a conservative with an agenda. That's nothing more than ad hominem and attacking the messenger. It's a logical fallacy. What I haven't seen is anyone disputing the claims from that book on Kerry's purple hearts. No one has disputed the fact that Kerry had to see 3 seperate doctors before one would sign the papers for him to recieve a purple heart. No one has really answered how he got wounded by the VC from M-203 fragments when only he fired one during the engagement.

Believe me, it might seem from your PoV that I have a filter over my eyes. (Perhaps I do, but then so do you and 90% of the people in this thread) Regardless, there is enough evidence here for Eut to make his claims. I might add that Kerry has not sued the author. There might be a reason for this.


Wasn't the book in qustion written BEFORE Kerry signed a release for his medical records? Wasn't that in 2005?

Doesn't that mean the book was based on incomplete evidence?

The evidence I've seen seems to point to a soldier that received repeated commendations (except for a beaching incident, for which I believe he still received a commendation, since lives were saved), and that was non-controversially decorated for at least two of three purple hearts... with express witness testimony of injuries under fire. The third (again, as far as I know) was the only one contested - because some people said he did not receive the wounds when he rescued a fellow soldier under fire (for which he received a Bronze Star, yes?)... but in an earlier unrelated incident.

Full disclosure in 2005 means that "Unfit for Command" should be considered speculative at best - especially since full disclosure reveals that a number of those who 'turned on Kerry' in the 2004 election campaign, gave glowing reports of him when he was in Vietnam.

They do if they cite someone who was serving under Kerry's command and witnessed it first hand. He also interviewed Kerry's CO, who has no agenda as he has supported other Democrats in the past. The author's points have not been disputed.There are just as many eye-witnesses who support Kerry's version, those didn't make it into the book, now did they.

I never once supported Eut's methods, just his opinions on Kerry, which I base on fact.

Can I get this straight? Are you saying that leaving Yale and enlisting for four years of service in combat heavy situations in Vietnam, an early promotion to Captain, two purple hearts, a silver star and a bronze star prove that Kerry is a pussy? I'm just curious... He faked it all? He was just some pussy grunt who never did much of anything? Can you compare that to George Bush's militart career, please? I'd like to see your take on the difference between the two. It will say something about your intelectual honesty.

I listen to conservative talk radio every day. That's because, aside from my feelings about this president and how this war is being fought I consider myself a conservative. For example, I think we need to massively cut down on entitlement programs, I'm for tough border security and am against blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants. I understand that our lives for a very long time are going to be dominated by a conflict between liberal democracy and conservative Islamic theocracy. I'm for a line item veto to contain the budget... all hallmarks of conservative ideological thought - though not neoconservative thought.

Anyhoo, what I'm also rabidly in favor of is intelectual honesty. Yesterday I was very pleasently surprised to hear Bill Handle, a right wing talk show host out here in Los Angeles on www.kfiam640.com who's program preceeds Rush Limbaugh's, stick up for a Kerry when a caller called in and accused Kerry of being unpatriotic and a sissy, essentially. Handle called the guy out and asked him when he served. The guy said he hadn't and handle said he had no right to question the patriotism of a man with Kerry's service record and then compared it to Bush's abysmal record of service during Vietnam. He essentially said, "I don't like his politics and wouldn't vote for him but I will not impugn his reputation as a patriotic and self sacrificing American. Someone who has never been underfire for their contry has no right to say that about someone who volunteered for it."

What I'm interested in is whether or not you are capable of that same level of intellectual honesty because, swift boaters aside, George Bush was the pussy, not Kerry.

I call bullshit on the soldiers being dumb. 99% of all US soldiers have high school diplomas. Compare that to 80% of the general population. All US military officers have a college degree (most are technical degrees like engineering). Most are now being encouraged to get masters degrees. Starting in 2008, all E-8s will be required to get a 4 year degree. The military is NOT full of dumbasses. Most enlisted men go to college after their enlistment period is up.

As for Kerry's "joke," even his fellow Dems in the House and Senate aren't buying that story.



Actually, yeah, I take back all I said about them being poorer and all that..

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm