NationStates Jolt Archive

THe torpedo would EASILY hit the core. The torpedo goes through solid matter (similar technology behind the transphasic cloaking device seen in TNG's 7th season episode "Pegasus"). The core is directly in the center of the Death Star, which is a huge target. It would be no issue to fire a spread of them and have one hit the core.

The lesser ships of the Federation's new fleets seem to be the Akira class. With 15 torpedo tubes, they are hardly pushovers. They can really rip Star Destroyers apart with a single transphasic torpedo on the bridge. After all, its explosive force would be far more devastating than the A-Wing crashing through it.

im fairly certain that an Akira isn't going to be "packing" transphasic torpedos, and we have yet to see if they are just good for the Borg or not. i have yet to see anything that suggests its similer tech to transphasic cloaking device...

implied by the name, transphasic, which indicates that it shifts phase continuously, making it impossible for the Borg to adapt against

the above statment i however have seen, though this does not mean you are not correct. still im going to listen to this more then what for the moment is as i see it only what you think.

and going through solid matter would first require taking the shields down on the larger warships, which despite the fact that is happened fast in RotJ, the attack on the shields took considerably longer and the SSD was under the concentrated fire of every rebel warship.

Depends on the books, try to stick to the films since the books often get down right silly.

Then to be fair, nothing from DS9, Enterprise or Voyager can be used, as none of them have been made into movies. Just as nothing that happened in the books after Jedi can be used by SW fans.

Movie to Movie is what you want, then thats what you get.

Voyager and Enterprise were just silly, I don't lament their loss. As for DS9, an acceptable concession.

Voyager and Enterprise were just silly, I don't lament their loss. As for DS9, an acceptable concession.

which means no dominion ships, no Cardassian ships, no Transphasic Torpedos, nothing that was not shown in the movies.

But the Genesis and trilithium torpedoes are still there:p

which means no dominion ships, no Cardassian ships, no Transphasic Torpedos, nothing that was not shown in the movies.

Movies showed a lot more tech in a brief time than they did through their entire runs anyway. Even if some of it made no sense. (Nemesis)

But the Genesis and trilithium torpedoes are still there:p

The Genesis device was a one off. And apparently a piece that needs some work at that. Remember, it didn't work as it was supposed to. Going by the movies, I suspect that the mess surrounding it killed off any idea of anyone ever building a new one. Sides, it is too slow to make an effective anti-ship weapon.

And the weapons missing are mainly torpedoes and disruptors. When Federation starships fire their phasers, they almost laways hit.

Hardly, the defiant. Voyager, Deep Space Nine all miss their targets in multiple shots. Heck, Deep Space nines Phaser arrays missed Klingon warships moving at a snails pace.... How is that possible?

And as we continue on this little endevour, you're assuming that A) ST would be able to learn of the Death Stars design flaws. B) Be able to target the core of the Death Star, as we can see in the footage. Federation Torps are hardly that acurate.

Allow me to show some wonderful info from www.stardestroyer.net

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp1.jpg - An aft-launched torpedo, fired from a Federation shuttle craft being piloted by Jean-Luc Picard and Worf. The target is another Federation scout ship, being flown by Data.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp2.jpg - The torpedo misses easily, even though Data has flown his ship in an almost totally straight line throughout this sequence.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/Shuttle1.jpg - The two ships. Data's scout is definitely larger than the Enterprise shuttle- this allows us to establish the size of the target that Picard and Worf were shooting at.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/Shuttle2.jpg - Another view of Data's ship, again to establish scale. This also helps describe the frontal profile that Picard and Worf were shooting at (Data's head is clearly visible in the cockpit).

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp3.jpg - Aft-launched quantum torpedo striking one of two pursuing So'na warships (top, middle- it looks like a yellow flare). A second torpedo is headed toward the second So'na warship, which is slightly down and to the right of the first ship.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp4.jpg - The second torpedo misses, passing the So'na ship over its port side. Note that these So'na ships are hundreds of metres long (707m long according to Star Trek Magazine, which pegs the science vessel and flagship at 1524m and 354m lengths respectively).

We have two clear examples now, of Federation weaponry failing to strike its target. One example involves a So'na shuttle craft, and the other example involves a full-sized So'na warship. There are no mysterious invisibly distant targets at which these torpedoes might have been aimed (the stock excuse for "Way of the Warrior"). In fact, the second sequence allows us to estimate the range at which the Enterprise-E failed to hit its pursuer, because the So'na ship is less than 10 kilometres behind the Enterprise-E at the time this happens.

Conclusion

Although it becomes tiresome to continually justify this statement, it bears repeating anyway: Federation targeting systems are not perfect! STI merely piles more evidence upon the pile, refuting an idea which shouldn't exist in the first place. Frankly, if it weren't for certain people who insist on propagating obviously silly ideas like "perfect targeting", none of this would be necessary.

The above is lifted directly from www.stardestroyer.net

Now in regard to the whole transphasic torp idea, well that one seems to be out considering I have shown how dodgy Federation projectile systems are. They will probably miss. That's not including the effect of Interdictor cruisers, we have yet to obtain if these weapons are in fact palpable to large scale Imperial Gravity Wells, which will only further serve to remove the Federation advantage.

Now since I'm rather lazy I'm lifting a little more from Stardestroyer.net to show the difference in firepower between Imperial and Federation class vessels.

Asteroid destruction: Jango Fett's seismic charges destroy asteroids in a radius of 5-10 km in AOTC.

Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).

Hmmm interesting. Yup, the Federation has the Empire beat on Firepower there. ;)

Should the Dominion, Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons, Breen, and Federation ally, they would have a numerical superiority between 4:1 and 8:1 depending on who's numbers you buy.

The transphasic torpedoes developed can kill a Borg cube in one hit. They would do the same to the DS since they wouldn't explode until they reached the central reactor core.

Absolute rubbish. Firstly, they would have to get their fleets all in the one place to be able to consider combatting the Empire. Secondly, you seriously think they are capable of outnumbering a GALACTIC EMPIRE? A vast sprawling organisation that fields countless thousands of warships fleets, militias, patrol vessels, merceneries, and other endless lines of supply?

The Star Trek speed limitations, even if they had numerical superiority simply wouldn't let them use it to any effect. Unless they wanted to leave their homeworlds and star systems completely unprotected. Even then, Hyperdrive simply allows the Empire to strike where and when it pleases.

Hardly, the defiant. Voyager, Deep Space Nine all miss their targets in multiple shots. Heck, Deep Space nines Phaser arrays missed Klingon warships moving at a snails pace.... How is that possible?

And as we continue on this little endevour, you're assuming that A) ST would be able to learn of the Death Stars design flaws. B) Be able to target the core of the Death Star, as we can see in the footage. Federation Torps are hardly that acurate.

Allow me to show some wonderful info from www.stardestroyer.net

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp1.jpg - An aft-launched torpedo, fired from a Federation shuttle craft being piloted by Jean-Luc Picard and Worf. The target is another Federation scout ship, being flown by Data.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp2.jpg - The torpedo misses easily, even though Data has flown his ship in an almost totally straight line throughout this sequence.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/Shuttle1.jpg - The two ships. Data's scout is definitely larger than the Enterprise shuttle- this allows us to establish the size of the target that Picard and Worf were shooting at.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/Shuttle2.jpg - Another view of Data's ship, again to establish scale. This also helps describe the frontal profile that Picard and Worf were shooting at (Data's head is clearly visible in the cockpit).

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp3.jpg - Aft-launched quantum torpedo striking one of two pursuing So'na warships (top, middle- it looks like a yellow flare). A second torpedo is headed toward the second So'na warship, which is slightly down and to the right of the first ship.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp4.jpg - The second torpedo misses, passing the So'na ship over its port side. Note that these So'na ships are hundreds of metres long (707m long according to Star Trek Magazine, which pegs the science vessel and flagship at 1524m and 354m lengths respectively).

We have two clear examples now, of Federation weaponry failing to strike its target. One example involves a So'na shuttle craft, and the other example involves a full-sized So'na warship. There are no mysterious invisibly distant targets at which these torpedoes might have been aimed (the stock excuse for "Way of the Warrior"). In fact, the second sequence allows us to estimate the range at which the Enterprise-E failed to hit its pursuer, because the So'na ship is less than 10 kilometres behind the Enterprise-E at the time this happens.

Conclusion

Although it becomes tiresome to continually justify this statement, it bears repeating anyway: Federation targeting systems are not perfect! STI merely piles more evidence upon the pile, refuting an idea which shouldn't exist in the first place. Frankly, if it weren't for certain people who insist on propagating obviously silly ideas like "perfect targeting", none of this would be necessary.

The above is lifted directly from www.stardestroyer.net

Now in regard to the whole transphasic torp idea, well that one seems to be out considering I have shown how dodgy Federation projectile systems are. They will probably miss. That's not including the effect of Interdictor cruisers, we have yet to obtain if these weapons are in fact palpable to large scale Imperial Gravity Wells, which will only further serve to remove the Federation advantage.

Now since I'm rather lazy I'm lifting a little more from Stardestroyer.net to show the difference in firepower between Imperial and Federation class vessels.

Asteroid destruction: Jango Fett's seismic charges destroy asteroids in a radius of 5-10 km in AOTC.

Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).

Hmmm interesting. Yup, the Federation has the Empire beat on Firepower there. ;)

just thought i should let ya know. your links are broken, at least for me

Those were not Q-Torps. If you actually watch the movie it was a technobabble energy weapon to disable sheilds.

Michael Wong frequently gets things wrong about trek on his site. Like this gem:
According to Carol Marcus, it can rearrange an entire planetary surface at the "subatomic level", in order to create a new biosystem (although her grasp of the underlying mechanism may be suspect, since it turned out that it was entirely dependent upon unstable "proto-matter" technology for its mysterious matter-transmutation capabilities, and she had no idea)
Carol Marcus built the device and knew how it functioned. Saavik, played by Robin Curtis in ST3 had a poor grasp of the technology.

Those were not Q-Torps. If you actually watch the movie it was a technobabble energy weapon to disable sheilds.

Michael Wong frequently gets things wrong about trek on his site. Like this gem:

Carol Marcus built the device and knew how it functioned. Saavik, played by Robin Curtis in ST3 had a poor grasp of the technology.

Nothing in the preceding posts mentions quantum torpedoes, so whos' post are you referring to?

As was mentioned in the Search, it didn't work like it was supposed to, they cut corners by using proto-matter, and in the end, David saw that it wasn't going according to their calculations. So therefore, her grasp of the underlying technology was mediocre at best.

"QTorps" had been brought up in Unified Sith's post, a direct cut from Wong's site.

The reason they used the fake form of matter was to speed up the process. David said "It was the only way to solve certain problems." If they didn't do what they did it might have taken years if it worked at all. It seemed that he knew from the beginning the experiment might blow up in his face but he wanted to win so he cut corners. Kind of like another character. It was meant to illustrate a point. Carol and David built the device, no one would understand it better than they. Especially since everyone else at the Mutara Facility were killed.

As a Trek fan I hate 10 almost as much as I hate 5. 5 was, still is, and likely forever will be the worst Trek film.

Absolute rubbish. Firstly, they would have to get their fleets all in the one place to be able to consider combatting the Empire. Secondly, you seriously think they are capable of outnumbering a GALACTIC EMPIRE? A vast sprawling organisation that fields countless thousands of warships fleets, militias, patrol vessels, merceneries, and other endless lines of supply?

The Star Trek speed limitations, even if they had numerical superiority simply wouldn't let them use it to any effect. Unless they wanted to leave their homeworlds and star systems completely unprotected. Even then, Hyperdrive simply allows the Empire to strike where and when it pleases.


Qouted for Truth.

Empire has bunch of huge capital ship factories and could produce a lot of warships in large numbers. It is way faster (across stellar distances) than ST ships and has way more resources (population and inhabited planets). Actually Outer Rim for Empire hardly matters (they could loose hundred star systems without any blow to military or economy), while they would strike every unprotected place within ST with large forces. The Galactic Empire itself is one extremely huge war machine against which few thousands of slow Federation ships with very good torpedoes, will not stand.
As Empire can strike Federation planets in fleet absence, what has Federation got that will withstand orbital bombardment of dozen SDs??

StarTrek may win a battle, but it stands with no hope whatsoever of winning the war. Star Wars Tech is better for all-out war.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned "A long time ago". Just for a second lets assume that they need to be in the same fictional time period to encounter each other. The deathstar could clearly take out fuedal Europe.....

Hardly, the defiant. Voyager, Deep Space Nine all miss their targets in multiple shots. Heck, Deep Space nines Phaser arrays missed Klingon warships moving at a snails pace.... How is that possible?

And as we continue on this little endevour, you're assuming that A) ST would be able to learn of the Death Stars design flaws. B) Be able to target the core of the Death Star, as we can see in the footage. Federation Torps are hardly that acurate.

Allow me to show some wonderful info from www.stardestroyer.net

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp1.jpg - An aft-launched torpedo, fired from a Federation shuttle craft being piloted by Jean-Luc Picard and Worf. The target is another Federation scout ship, being flown by Data.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp2.jpg - The torpedo misses easily, even though Data has flown his ship in an almost totally straight line throughout this sequence.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/Shuttle1.jpg - The two ships. Data's scout is definitely larger than the Enterprise shuttle- this allows us to establish the size of the target that Picard and Worf were shooting at.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/Shuttle2.jpg - Another view of Data's ship, again to establish scale. This also helps describe the frontal profile that Picard and Worf were shooting at (Data's head is clearly visible in the cockpit).

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp3.jpg - Aft-launched quantum torpedo striking one of two pursuing So'na warships (top, middle- it looks like a yellow flare). A second torpedo is headed toward the second So'na warship, which is slightly down and to the right of the first ship.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/QTorp4.jpg - The second torpedo misses, passing the So'na ship over its port side. Note that these So'na ships are hundreds of metres long (707m long according to Star Trek Magazine, which pegs the science vessel and flagship at 1524m and 354m lengths respectively).

We have two clear examples now, of Federation weaponry failing to strike its target. One example involves a So'na shuttle craft, and the other example involves a full-sized So'na warship. There are no mysterious invisibly distant targets at which these torpedoes might have been aimed (the stock excuse for "Way of the Warrior"). In fact, the second sequence allows us to estimate the range at which the Enterprise-E failed to hit its pursuer, because the So'na ship is less than 10 kilometres behind the Enterprise-E at the time this happens.

Conclusion

Although it becomes tiresome to continually justify this statement, it bears repeating anyway: Federation targeting systems are not perfect! STI merely piles more evidence upon the pile, refuting an idea which shouldn't exist in the first place. Frankly, if it weren't for certain people who insist on propagating obviously silly ideas like "perfect targeting", none of this would be necessary.

The above is lifted directly from www.stardestroyer.net

Now in regard to the whole transphasic torp idea, well that one seems to be out considering I have shown how dodgy Federation projectile systems are. They will probably miss. That's not including the effect of Interdictor cruisers, we have yet to obtain if these weapons are in fact palpable to large scale Imperial Gravity Wells, which will only further serve to remove the Federation advantage.

Now since I'm rather lazy I'm lifting a little more from Stardestroyer.net to show the difference in firepower between Imperial and Federation class vessels.

Asteroid destruction: Jango Fett's seismic charges destroy asteroids in a radius of 5-10 km in AOTC.

Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).

Hmmm interesting. Yup, the Federation has the Empire beat on Firepower there. ;)


Woops, here is a link to the page in question. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/#Targeting

1) Empire sensors are pathetic, so a cloaking device is not likely well developed.
2) Novels are not cannon.
3) Ion Engines are very slow to accelerate but offer excellent efficency and decent top speed. An actual TIE would be a sitting duck and very difficult to manuever. So don't play up the ion engine bit.

1) According to the novels the cloaking is total from any form of energy except the Force. Do you have any data for claiming that Empire sensors are pathetic? Apart from the Han Solo maneuver in TESB?

2) Novels are canon when thus endorsed by Lucasfilms. The novels I quoted are part of SW canon. Are you aware that the movies are based on novels? Are you aware that some novels are written by Lucas himself (episodes 4, 5, 6, Shadow Star, etc.)?

3) This is the post my explanation of the TIE acronym was meant for.
On top of that, Duke scientists have developed a working cloaking device. Star Trek has changed this world. It is responsible for laptops, iPods, Palm Pilots, much of our medical technology, NASA's ion engines, etc. Just watch the History Channel show "How William Shatner Changed the World." Star Trek at least tried to be realistic in terms of what technology would be available in the future. It looks like we are ahead of the Star Trek timeline for technological developments.

By the way:
Galaxy Quest OWNS them all...
With the Omega 13 superweapon...

And Galaxy Quest is real ;)

Novels are usually part of something called Expanded Universe cannon which is a sort of semi-cannon. It can and has been overwritten by the top-level cannon of the films before. When a part of a book is overwritten the book is thrown out. Such is the case with Jedi Search, which claimed that the Death Star was designed and constructed at a facility inside a cluster of black holes. We saw in Ep2 that this was not the case and that it had been constructed in open space or some unknown system at the end of Ep3. Therefore the book contradicts established cannon and should be not be considered even semi-cannon.

Most of the EU is approved fan fiction.

Novels are usually part of something called Expanded Universe cannon which is a sort of semi-cannon. It can and has been overwritten by the top-level cannon of the films before. When a part of a book is overwritten the book is thrown out. Such is the case with Jedi Search, which claimed that the Death Star was designed and constructed at a facility inside a cluster of black holes. We saw in Ep2 that this was not the case and that it had been constructed in open space or some unknown system at the end of Ep3. Therefore the book contradicts established cannon and should be not be considered even semi-cannon.

Most of the EU is approved fan fiction.

Most of the EU is canon unless contradicted by movies I think you mean.

1)--- Are you aware that some novels are written by Lucas himself (episodes 4, 5, 6, Shadow Star, etc.)?---

Erm, sorry, Star Wars 4 was actually ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster. Both Foster and Lucas have said so.

No, it's semi-cannon. It's used to clean up plot holes but usually just creates more. If you want to go just by true cannon then you have to stick to the movies and shows.

No, it's semi-canon. It's used to clean up plot holes but usually just creates more. If you want to go just by true canon then you have to stick to the movies and shows.

And yet Lucas considers the novelizations to be part of the Star Wars universe.

SW fallows a "canon ranking system"

Movies and what Lucas says are above all, books are fairly high, and video games are fairly low.

don't tell me that the books arn't canon because they most definetly are

...If you want to go just by true cannon then you have to stick to the movies and shows.

I hope the Star Wars Holiday Special is exluded. I think Carrie Fisher's horrible singing is enough to deter even the stoutest Klingon warrior. :p

Novels are usually part of something called Expanded Universe cannon which is a sort of semi-cannon. It can and has been overwritten by the top-level cannon of the films before. When a part of a book is overwritten the book is thrown out. Such is the case with Jedi Search, which claimed that the Death Star was designed and constructed at a facility inside a cluster of black holes. We saw in Ep2 that this was not the case and that it had been constructed in open space or some unknown system at the end of Ep3. Therefore the book contradicts established cannon and should be not be considered even semi-cannon.

Most of the EU is approved fan fiction.

i quote

Initially, the Death Star was born in the mind of Raith Sienar, who had conceived of it as an Expeditionary Battle Planetoid. He shared his idea with his friend Captain Wilhuff Tarkin, who presented it to Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Palpatine, as Darth Sidious, later gave the design to his apprentice Darth Tyranus, who as Count Dooku, leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, presented it to the Geonosians, who created the initial technical designs.

Archduke Poggle the Lesser, leader of the Geonosians, returned the top-secret design to Count Dooku to prevent it from falling into the hands of the Jedi just in time for the Battle of Geonosis. Dooku took the designs back to Coruscant and gave them to Darth Sidious, his dark master.

Darth Sidious kept the design, and later ordered the Death Star's construction after the Galactic Empire was formed, in order to secure his new-formed absolute power. Wilhuff Tarkin was appointed to mastermind the secret development project. Tarkin's creative work and thought had resulted in the realization of Death Star as the Empire's ultimate weapon.

After the beginning of the Great Jedi Purge, an assault was led on the planet Kashyyyk to enslave the native Wookiees for the Death Star's construction. Various prison planets were also known to have their captives unwittingly construct various sections of the station.


Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader witness the construction of the Death Star I.However, the project nearly ended before it began. Because much of the technology of the Death Star was impressive, actually building it proved to be more difficult than anyone imagined. Efforts were not helped by repeated (and often unsuccessful) sabotage efforts.

Of particular concern was the technology required to create the massive superlaser, the very heart of the weapon. To this end, Tarkin brought together some of the most brilliant minds of the Galaxy, including Tol Sivron, Qwi Xux, and Bevel Lemelisk, and built a proof-of-concept model at the Maw Installation. This model would eventually become known as the Death Star Prototype. These scientists also found and corrected several flaws in the Geonosian blueprints, which had been used in that phase of construction.

With the concept completed and the plans finalized, Lemelisk took the plans to Despayre, where construction would finally be completed after twenty years of hard work and the death of many individuals.

Jedi Search isn't cannon because Ep2 and Ep3 seem to contradict part of it. Therefore that book and all books based on that book are not cannon. You can't pick and choose what to include or exclude from a book when part of it contradicts cannon, the whole thing must be thrown out. That means the Sun Crusher is out. Meaning SW loses its most powerful weapon. ST had the star destroying weapon in a movie so it's solid cannon. That gives ST an edge over SW.

Now the whole idea of a tiny topedo blowing up a star is absurd. Stars are ancient things and really huge. But most people have decided to ignore such things for this debate and others like it so I won't bother.

Jedi Search isn't cannon because Ep2 and Ep3 seem to contradict part of it. Therefore that book and all books based on that book are not cannon. You can't pick and choose what to include or exclude from a book when part of it contradicts cannon, the whole thing must be thrown out. That means the Sun Crusher is out. Meaning SW loses its most powerful weapon. ST had the star destroying weapon in a movie so it's solid cannon. That gives ST an edge over SW.

Now the whole idea of a tiny topedo blowing up a star is absurd. Stars are ancient things and really huge. But most people have decided to ignore such things for this debate and others like it so I won't bother.

the post i made explains how it all fits together with the movie...

and even if that bit i posted has something left out, please do tell me.

In almost every Sci-Fi universe, only on screen material is considered canon. George Lucas just wants money so he declares the books to be canon.

Oh, I forgot to say something. I'd love to see the Defiant cloak over Coruscant and deliver the Genesis Device. Either that or just fire a quantum torpedoe at the atmosphere. They showed us in DS9 that such shots can make a planet uninhabitable.

McCoy: Dear Lord. You think we're intelligent enough to... suppose... what if this thing were used where life already exists?
Spock: It would destroy such life in favor of its new matrix.
McCoy: "Its new matrix"? Do you have any idea what you're saying?
Spock: I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create.
McCoy: Not anymore; now we can do both at the same time! According to myth, the Earth was created in 6 days. Now, watch out. Here comes Genesis. We'll do it for you in 6 minutes!
Spock: Really, Dr. McCoy. You must learn to govern your passions; they will be your undoing. Logic suggests...
McCoy: Logic? My God, the man's talking about logic; we're talking about universal Armageddon! You green-blooded, inhuman...

In almost every Sci-Fi universe, only on screen material is considered canon. George Lucas just wants money so he declares the books to be canon.

Whether or not you like his decision is not the point. The point is that whatever Lucas decides is canon. *Is* in fact canon. Seriously try to keep it objective here.

Oh, I forgot to say something. I'd love to see the Defiant cloak over Coruscant and deliver the Genesis Device. Either that or just fire a quantum torpedoe at the atmosphere. They showed us in DS9 that such shots can make a planet uninhabitable.

Within the Thrawn trilogy it's made clear that such an act would not be possible due to Imperial and rebel sensors being able to detect drive emissions and easily plot the course of said ship. In other words we would shoot you from the sky with the blazen particle trail your leaving.

But say you did hit it off with that one time Genesis device, then all it would turn into is a planet killing contest where the Empire is bound to win, considering it could take the loss of Coruscant with a pinch of salt and still return fire with Galaxy Guns, Death Stars, World Devestators, Bombs mounted on Hyperdrives and it goes on. Not too mention the moral high ground of the Federation. I doubt Picard is likely to kill over 200 Trillion people on Coruscant alone.

And last of all I am pointing out that you continue to refute obvious points placed in this debate. Firstly in regard to federation targetting systems shown in STI to be lacking. Severely.

The numbers ratio and the fact that even with the entire milky way against the Empire it would take what? 120 years to mass the super fleet for an invasion/defence while the empire could do it in a few weeks thanks to Hyperdrive?

Genesis was lost with the prototype, it's not really an option and nor was it ever mass produced or capable of being mass produced as a weapon of mass destruction. The device isn't palpable in this debate.

Imperial worlds have things called planetery shield generators. And surface to orbit weapons. When you build a moon sized battlestation get back to me on being able to kill a planet. Unless it's Tatooine, then go right ahead.

McCoy: Dear Lord. You think we're intelligent enough to... suppose... what if this thing were used where life already exists?
Spock: It would destroy such life in favor of its new matrix.
McCoy: "Its new matrix"? Do you have any idea what you're saying?
Spock: I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create.
McCoy: Not anymore; now we can do both at the same time! According to myth, the Earth was created in 6 days. Now, watch out. Here comes Genesis. We'll do it for you in 6 minutes!
Spock: Really, Dr. McCoy. You must learn to govern your passions; they will be your undoing. Logic suggests...
McCoy: Logic? My God, the man's talking about logic; we're talking about universal Armageddon! You green-blooded, inhuman...

Hardly universal when it's only one planet.

Federation targetting has only been flawed when we see torpedoes (which like a missile can be dodged). The main weapon against a fighter would be the phaser arrays, which have near perfect accuracy. Fighters with weak ass lasers would do almost no damage to the shields of a Federation ship. At the same time, any Federation ship launched after 2355 would have phaser arrays instead of banks. This means the computer can target a dozen seperate targets and fire simultaneously at them and then repeat a few seconds later. I might add that this can be done at extreme ranges too.

As for Empire sensors, they are very weak. They were unable to detect the Milenium Falcon when it was right next to them. Besides, advanced cloaking devices have masked engine exhausts (poor term I know). The Reman Scimitar had no penetrable weakness in its cloak. The only time we've seen a cloaked ship get targetted due to its exhausts was in STVI, this was about 90 years before the point they are at in the current timeline so that flaw has been worked out.

There is only 1 canon mention of speed for Empire ships. Stardestroyer.net is not a credible source on the numbers. The only actual canon mention is .5 past light speed. Light speed is not 100,000,000c. It is 1c. You should know that light speed is an actual constant. If you have ever taken a physics course (although some of my chem courses have used it too) you would know that light speed is a constand equaling 299,792,458 m/s. That is an undisputable fact. The Millenium Falcon can go only 1.5 times that value. Federation ships can move at 7,000-8,000 times that speed. They can also do battle at warp speed (something SW ships can't do). The Borg have transwarp technology too which allows them to travel almost instantaneously through the galaxy. The Federation also has it too thanks to the modifications done to the shuttlecraft Cochrane by the Voyager's crew.

Sure the Empire controls an entire galaxy, but what I've derived from the numbers is that its a small galaxy, after all galaxies do come in all shapes and sizes. The books may say something different, but guess what? The movie takes precedent over the book in any case of disagreement.

Oh, and Genesis was never pursued further because Khan and the Klingons proved that it would be more trouble than it was worth with the fact the Federation already has advanced terraforming capabilities. It became clear that eventually, it would get in the wrong hands and then would be a superweapon. Starfleet had the ability to continue the program if they wished. In STIII, it was mentioned that Starfleet was reconsidering the program after Khan got his hands on it. Regardless of these facts, it still exists as a potent weapon which can destroy a planet in an instant. I also should mention that they can destroy an entire solar system with a trilithium torpedo.

The Federation may have a moral high ground, but the Dominion, Romulans, Ferengi (if money is involved), Klingons, and Cardassians would have no qualms in doing it.

There is no arguing against the ability to destroy planets in Star Trek. A planetary shield is worthless against an induced Supernova. I doubt the Death Star can cause a star to go supernova.

The Federation has other advantages in that they can travel back in time using the method of timewarp. We've seen Kirk do this numerous times.

There is only 1 canon mention of speed for Empire ships. Stardestroyer.net is not a credible source on the numbers. The only actual canon mention is .5 past light speed. Light speed is not 100,000,000c. It is 1c. You should know that light speed is an actual constant. If you have ever taken a physics course (although some of my chem courses have used it too) you would know that light speed is a constand equaling 299,792,458 m/s. That is an undisputable fact. The Millenium Falcon can go only 1.5 times that value. Federation ships can move at 7,000-8,000 times that speed. They can also do battle at warp speed (something SW ships can't do). The Borg have transwarp technology too which allows them to travel almost instantaneously through the galaxy. The Federation also has it too thanks to the modifications done to the shuttlecraft Cochrane by the Voyager's crew.

Sure the Empire controls an entire galaxy, but what I've derived from the numbers is that its a small galaxy, after all galaxies do come in all shapes and sizes. The books may say something different, but guess what? The movie takes precedent over the book in any case of disagreement.


You really don't read anything anyone else says, do you? You are obviously using material from the Tech manuals, but the SW fans are not allowed to? Hardly sporting old chap.

We've already shown you that your assumption of 1.5 over light is baseless and inaccurate. According to the same type of materials you are using to make your assertions.

Now, according to the technical manuals for SW, hyperspace jumps are many, many, many multiples of lightspeed in that dimension, suggesting a top speed much higher than it is possible to attain in this reality.

The phrase used was ".5 past lightspeed". You don't know what that number means because, and I am repeating myself here. They never, ever, ever, state, in the movies, what measurements that number is based on.

According to research I've read about, not only have scientists been able to make a beam of light exceed its own maximum velocity, but they have suggested that the speed of light has actually slowed down appreciably since the beginning of the universe. This rather suggests that the speed of light is not, in fact, a constant.

According to the SW materials, their galaxy is at least the size of ours, if not bigger, which again suggests much higher drive velocities for ships within the SW universe than that of Star Trek.

As for the Genesis device, the fact that in what, 15 years of Star Trek movies and tv series, they've never once brought it up could very well suggest that they no longer have the technical knowledge to create another one. After the fiasco shown in Wrath, I wouldn't be surprised if all records, data and equipment needed to create one were destroyed. More than likely by the creators themselves.

Make it simple IDF, go to the bookstore, grab the SW cross-sections book, and the ST Technical Manual, and compare them for yourself. I rather suspect that you'll find you've made a lot of erroneous assumptions based on a lack of evidentary knowledge.

light speed is lightspeed. There is no interpretation to be made because lightspeed has a definitive value. Should they say .5 past some other thing, then you'd have a point, but light speed = 1c. There is no argument against that that can be made. It is a constant.

As for my data, none of it comes from technical manuals. All of it comes from stuff said on screen.

There is no data to contradict the size of the galaxy. It is obviously quite small and no canon source says otherwise. Besides, ST has transwarp.

Just out of curiosity, IDF. How big do you think a galaxy like this:

http://www.starwars.idv.tw/starwarsgalaxy.jpg

is?

Note that the official statement says that it's about 100,000 lightyears across.

Also note the distance from Tatooine to Alderaan. You can't possibly expect me to believe that the distance is small!

Just out of curiosity, IDF. How big do you think a galaxy like this:

http://www.starwars.idv.tw/starwarsgalaxy.jpg

is?

Note that the official statement says that it's about 100,000 lightyears across.

They never say how large it is on screen. All we have to go on is the fact that their ships are slow as molasses and can quickly travel across the galaxy. Even if hyperspace is really fast, transwarp is faster and thanks to VOYAGER is in Federation hands. Not that it matters if you are allied with the Borg.

They never say how large it is on screen. All we have to go on is the fact that their ships are slow as molasses and can quickly travel across the galaxy. Even if hyperspace is really fast, transwarp is faster and thanks to VOYAGER is in Federation hands. Not that it matters if you are allied with the Borg.
I sense a disturbance in the Force. It feels like...a contradiction! Either the ships are slow, or they can quickly travel across the galaxy. Can't be both at the same time.

Plus, didn't transwarp require some kind of hub to work?

And yet if it so fast, than why did it take years to go across a quadrant, noit even a whole galaxy.

I sense a disturbance in the Force. It feels like...a contradiction! Either the ships are slow, or they can quickly travel across the galaxy. Can't be both at the same time.

Plus, didn't transwarp require some kind of hub to work?

quickly across the galaxy means they can move from one side to the other in a short amount of time due to its size. it's a relative term. The ships are slow, but they still get across the galaxy in a short time due to its size.

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/messier/more/mw.html

Here's some data on the Milky Way Galaxy as we know it to compare with the SW Insider galaxy map.

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/messier/more/mw.html

Here's some data on the Milky Way Galaxy as we know it to compare with the SW Insider galaxy map.

they're about the same.

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/messier/more/mw.html

Here's some data on the Milky Way Galaxy as we know it to compare with the SW Insider galaxy map.

The SW map is non-canon

The SW map is non-canon

so what is? by your standards that would mean that every book is non cannon. and the tech mannuals that were approved by lucas.

so what is? by your standards that would mean that every book is non cannon.

Books are not canon. All Star Trek books are approved by Paramount and Rick Berman, but that doesn't change the fact that they are not canon.

Books are not canon. All Star Trek books are approved by Paramount and Rick Berman, but that doesn't change the fact that they are not canon.

why not? just because they werenot made by lucas that means that all the movies execpt IV and I are non cannon correct?

why not? just because they werenot made by lucas that means that all the movies execpt IV and I are non cannon correct?

It is generally accepted that canon in Science Fiction is defined by what is shown on screen. Anything not on screen and accepted by the fans is fanon, NOT cannon.

quickly across the galaxy means they can move from one side to the other in a short amount of time due to its size. it's a relative term. The ships are slow, but they still get across the galaxy in a short time due to its size.
Ok. Let's assume that's true. Let's assume the galaxy really is small. Let's assume that the Falcon can only go 1.5 lightyears in an hour and assume that's the fastest speed in Star Wars.

Let's assume the Falcon is jumping to hyperspace from Earth to Proxima Centauri, 4.2 lightyears away.

That means that it will take a bit less than three hours to get from Earth to Proxima Centari. That's not bad, right? It's basically a drive from Atlanta GA to the beaches of Savannah.

Well, let's go farther out. Let's go to Wolf 359, a star well known in Star Trek. Well, that star is 7.6 lightyears away. That's a little over five hours away, a trip from Detroit, Michigan to Buffalo, New York.

Got it so far? Good.

Now, let's go farther. Let's go to a hypothetical planet which happens to look like Coruscant in the Core, 25,000 lightyears from Earth.

Calculating the time...it would take about 16.67 thousand hours to get to the Core. Almost two years!

Well, that's not too bad. At least Luke and company have a high chance of staying alive in two years by stocking up on food, water and other necessities.

But hold on. Han Solo expected to get from Tatooine, stated to be in the Outer Rim to Alderaan, which is known to be a Core planet in mere hours! That would mean somewhere between Proxima Centari and Wolf 359 in terms of time, if we take the .5 past lightspeed literally.

That would be a damn small galaxy, my friend. No bigger than 20 lightyears wide or so. About the size of a small nebula. Our galaxy is about 100,000 lightyears, which would be a 'standard' galaxy, I'd say. I, personally would not call that 20 lightyear-wide "galaxy" a galaxy, but a local group at best.

As such, I wonder how big the SW galaxy is supposed to be to you...

light speed is lightspeed. There is no interpretation to be made because lightspeed has a definitive value. Should they say .5 past some other thing, then you'd have a point, but light speed = 1c. There is no argument against that that can be made. It is a constant.

As for my data, none of it comes from technical manuals. All of it comes from stuff said on screen.

There is no data to contradict the size of the galaxy. It is obviously quite small and no canon source says otherwise. Besides, ST has transwarp.

Better tell that to the researchers who fired a beam of light through a container of gas and had it literally get to the other side before it left the emitter. Exceeding the speed of light.

When I have the gumption, I'll go look for a link to that for you.

.5 WHAT?!?!?!? They never say, in the movie, what that measurement IS! You are making assumption without any data. Hell, you don't even know which dimension they were talking about when he said that. How do you know that wasn't a function of time instead of velocity? How do you know when that line was given, the idea was that he was talking about the upper limit for lightspeed within the realm of hyperspace? You cannot and do not know, as it is not said in the movie. Therefore, your assumptions are at the very least wrong.

HAN: She'll make point five beyond the speed of light. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've added some special modifications myself.

As I said, he never suggests what that number is based on or where it is measured from. Unless you can find someting within the movies, books and manuals that states specifically that .5 means 1.5c, then I'll shut up. Otherwise you are just assuming.

It is generally accepted that canon in Science Fiction is defined by what is shown on screen. Anything not on screen and accepted by the fans is fanon, NOT cannon.
Actually, that's Paramount's canonicity, IIRC.

Lucasfilms is a little different.

I'm not sure what you think of Wookiepedia, but according to it, Star Wars canon policy is as follows:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy

It is generally accepted that canon in Science Fiction is defined by what is shown on screen. Anything not on screen and accepted by the fans is fanon, NOT cannon.

So what about all the sci-fi out there that is never on the boobtube or the silver screen?

1. A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: “the durable canon of American short fiction” (William Styron).
2. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.

If LucasFilm accepts the books as canon, then they are, by definition, canon.

It is generally accepted that canon in Science Fiction is defined by what is shown on screen. Anything not on screen and accepted by the fans is fanon, NOT cannon.

so by that definition, the LOTR books are not cannon. since the books are fully 100% word by word on nthe screeen.

They never say how large it is on screen. All we have to go on is the fact that their ships are slow as molasses and can quickly travel across the galaxy. Even if hyperspace is really fast, transwarp is faster and thanks to VOYAGER is in Federation hands. Not that it matters if you are allied with the Borg.

Transwarp is only faster if usinga hub, without the hub its slower(takes months as i remember from "hope and fear")

http://www.starwars.idv.tw/starwarsgalaxy.jpg
What game wasa that used for?

And transwarp does not require a hub.

[Edit]
Hope and Fear featured a "quantum slipstream" drive, not transwarp.

What game wasa that used for?

And transwarp does not require a hub.

[Edit]
Hope and Fear featured a "quantum slipstream" drive, not transwarp.

i know it does not need a hub, but its much faster with one. taking months rather then minutes/seconds with out one. though you may have been directing that at CoreWorlds

Quantum slipstream, developed by Species 116 is another method of propulsion that is analogous to transwarp, achieving the stability transwarp drives could not

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

This site explains how the Star Wars Empire would crush the Star Trek Federation with *very* little effort.

The webmaster of this website is a physicist, he analyzes everything very deeply, even to technology that doesn't even exist.

You'll see...

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

This site explains how the Star Wars Empire would crush the Star Trek Federation with *very* little effort.

The webmaster of this website is a physicist, he analyzes everything very deeply, even to technology that doesn't even exist.

You'll see...


been posted before

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

This site explains how the Star Wars Empire would crush the Star Trek Federation with *very* little effort.

The webmaster of this website is a physicist, he analyzes everything very deeply, even to technology that doesn't even exist.

You'll see...

Some glorious being, certainly far above mortals, posted it to the first page. ;)

I think I am going to go out a limb and describe my personal fealings on the subject, and say that I think the two are fairly equal. Both ST and SW have their strong points and weak points. In a fairly even even battle, lets say:

2 x Imperial Star Destroyers with full compliment of TIE fighters

VS.

1 x Sovereign-class starship
2 x Akira-class starship

I would say in this kind of matchup it would be 50-50 as to who would win. But hey, thats just me.

What were the probes from "Generations" that Soran made? Were they Trilithium?

Shockwave destroying a system? Launchable from nearly any vessel in the fleet?

Yes, please. :D

Of course, its relatively easy to challenge those Star Wars firepower estimates if one pays attention to the movies in general and not those Complete Cross Sections books. The 'Petaton' and 'Gigaton' estimates, primarily.

Sure, I might just be a BS in physics but it really doesn't take graduate knowledge to figure this crap out.

Unified Sith seems to subscribe to the 'Petaton' range turbolaser firepower, working off of the firepower of the death star and the comment "The Death Star has more firepower than half the imperial fleet!" Nevermind the notion that the Death Star's Superlaser wasn't being included in that 'Look at the guns!' statement simply because it'd be pretty bloody foolish to use up a Superlaser blast on a fighter...

The 'Gigaton' estimate comes from... what's it again? A scene where asteroids are getting vaporized? Working from that to get overall yield, even though in Return of the Jedi the speeders on endor seemingly vaporize on impact with a TREE (which should, incidentally, cause a rather hefty Nuclear Bomb-esque explosion, but nope! Just a few flickering flames on a tree... the moss didn't even come off...)

Chalk the latter estimate to reading too much into poopy special effects, I say.

Of course, I also note that this is like, the seventy-third time IDF has brought this whole argument up. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...

Edited to Add: P.S. Dune Tech Pwns All

light speed is lightspeed. There is no interpretation to be made because lightspeed has a definitive value. Should they say .5 past some other thing, then you'd have a point, but light speed = 1c. There is no argument against that that can be made. It is a constant.


Notice that ".5 past light speed" does not specify .5 what?
MPH? Km/h? Parsec/s? LY/ns?

Notice that ".5 past light speed" does not specify .5 what?
MPH? Km/h? Parsec/s? LY/ns?

m/s:D

Notice that ".5 past light speed" does not specify .5 what?
MPH? Km/h? Parsec/s? LY/ns?

I haven't went into all that cannon/non-cannon discussion, but from SW books I can tell you what it is: 0.5 is multiplier of standard time to get from one point to another (only in hyperspace, past lightspeed).
If Millenium Falcon could go for example 10 km/s flying under lightspeed, than past lightspeed it could go 0.5. E.g., Stardestroyers had more like standard slower hyperspace engine and they could go 1.0 or 2.0 past lightspeed.

If from Tatooine (Outer Rim) till Alderaan (Core) standard flight time is 8 hours, then Millenium F. could do it in 4.
Slow freighter would do it in 16 hours. Simple as that.

Very well, let us see to some of the points that have been raised.

First of all the You Tube I provided was in fact acceptable means to judge Federation Targeting abilities. The Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion and Federation are all on a technological par with each other. To assume that the Federation has a complete tactical advantage over each of these empires in tactical ability is in fact a lie. We can clearly see in the Dominion wars and in specific the episode Sacrifice of Angels

The Federation is pretty darn equal in all areas to her neighbouring Nationstates. The You Tube I gave earlier clearly shows Deep Space Nines phaser arrays missing a Klingon Fleet. And the Defiant, missing her targets a lot.

Now let us continue to Star Trek Nemesis. For a Federation ship to be able to target multiple fighters at one point in time we are assuming their targeting computers are capable of fast computations to manoeuvrable objects. Now let us apply this to Star Trek Nemesis where, we can clearly see the Enterprise firing upon the Scimitar blindly. Of course this was a necessity but when the odd strike did impact. The Enterprise was not capable of firing on the same area fast enough before she cloaked again. Now this is indisputable proof of the Federations limited tactical ability.

Now I hear a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" being thrown around about Genesis weapons and alliances with the borg. However, we're talking in a straight on fight between the Empire and Star Trek.

Now, the Federation does not have Slip Stream Drives fitted upon all of her fleets. Nor does the Federation have Transwarp capability ironed out. Nor do we assume they have the general capability to do this in a full scale war effort. Otherwise their ships would have, well, they would have developed them during the Dominion war itself.

Now they were certainly capable of doing this since Voyager transmitted and relayed her logs and technological advancements during the war. So we can safely assume that the Federation is very limited in rolling out new technological advancements. They at least had the basics of the Slipstream drive.

Now we come to the Borg. The Borg are very unlikely to ally with the Federation or any other species in the Milky Way. They are and have always been out for themselves. I believe a more accurate result would be the assimilation of the Federation and other Empires around them, as Nationstates slowly become unable to defend their territory from Borg incursions. The Borg will not align. A small alliance between Janeway and the Borg was however possible, but popular opinion within the Federation itself would not even consider diplomatic relations considering the general "Borg keep on trying to kill us." And, let me also point out the Picard would resist any attempts or efforts on this part. Commanding a huge sway of support he commands he would likely prevent any of these efforts from happening.

Now in regard to the size of the Empire, come on and be realistic. Your grasping at straws here. The Galaxy is comparable in size to the Milky Way, and sixty million populated star systems under the Empires control within a 20 LY radius seems very very improbable.

Hyperspace is accepted by both parties to be faster than warp. In Episode Three Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine was able to reach Anakin Skywalker before he died upon the ash laden slops. Mustafar is on the Outer Rim. Coruscant is in the Core. You do the maths of how fast they are capable in a shuttlecraft of traveling.

Once more, let us point out that the Milky Way is a splintered Galaxy with countless disunited factions. Their ability to trust each other is rare, though I admit the Dominion war was able to unify the main Alpha Quadrant powers.

Now let us address the main points of the Genesis weapon.

1)The Federation are not willing to use it otherwise it would have been used in the Dominion war.
2) Weapons take time to build and we are assuming the Federation is capable of even reaching an Imperial world within an acceptable time frame.
3) Moral conscience of the Federation will prohibit its use.

Now in regard to Fire Power.

Asteroid destruction: Jango Fett's seismic charges destroy asteroids in a radius of 5-10 km in AOTC.

Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).

This has been ignored by many people and I feel the need to bring it up again.

Technology

The Federation do have better medical technological abilities. However they are a society geared for peace not war.

Theatre Shielding and Planetary Shielding

Star Wars has the ability to project planetary shields around an entire world safeguarding them from any orbital strike. The Federation would have to siege worlds to take them, and deal with surface to orbit weapons.

ION CANNONS

Most probably the Federations main fear, an ion cannon hit upon main engineering or any important aspect of the ships systems can cause vast failures along the vessel. Structural Integrity fields. Inertial Dampners. Warp Drive. Warp Core containment. Where as Imperial vessels are designed to run almost completely without power. Considering each Turbolaser is independently powered.

Now as for the Empire strikes back, the Star Destroyers were not aiming to destroy, but they were instead aiming to capture. "Good our first catch of the day." The rebel ion cannon disabled the tractor beams upon the ships.

Now let us continue to Star Trek Nemesis. For a Federation ship to be able to target multiple fighters at one point in time we are assuming their targeting computers are capable of fast computations to manoeuvrable objects. Now let us apply this to Star Trek Nemesis where, we can clearly see the Enterprise firing upon the Scimitar blindly. Of course this was a necessity but when the odd strike did impact. The Enterprise was not capable of firing on the same area fast enough before she cloaked again. Now this is indisputable proof of the Federations limited tactical ability.I think I saw another movie then you did, The Ent did fire multiple shots at the same spot, only because the Scimitar was moving not all shots hit it. (Around 2/3 of the shots the Ent fired did hit the Scimitar, seems a nice ratio for firing at a cloaked vessel;) )

Now I hear a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" being thrown around about Genesis weapons and alliances with the borg. However, we're talking in a straight on fight between the Empire and Star Trek.What, Fed vs Empire or ST vs SW?

Otherwise their ships would have, well, they would have developed them during the Dominion war itself.Voyager wasn't back when the Dominion war ended;)



Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).And Voyager needed only one.


Star Wars has the ability to project planetary shields around an entire world safeguarding them from any orbital strike. The Federation would have to siege worlds to take them, and deal with surface to orbit weapons.[/quoteYeah, SW doesn't have to to do that....

[quote]Where as Imperial vessels are designed to run almost completely without power. Yeah, sure:p

I think I saw another movie then you did, The Ent did fire multiple shots at the same spot, only because the Scimitar was moving not all shots hit it. (Around 2/3 of the shots the Ent fired did hit the Scimitar, seems a nice ratio for firing at a cloaked vessel;) )

So what you're saying is that a fighter has to be standing still before it can be hit. As surely with systems as "advanced" as the Federations since its being implied they are the peak of Alpha quadrant tech, since earlier posters told me the video does not apply to the federation.

With the systems that are being talked about here, once fired. The Enterprise shouldnt have lost the Scimitar. Considering, according to posters here. Her weapons banks are capable of multiple and numerous phaser burts over a dispersed area. Phasers could have been staggered and thusly the battle kept in check.

What, Fed vs Empire or ST vs SW?

Voyager wasn't back when the Dominion war ended;)

No but they were in communication and voyager did transmit all logs and technological advancements as well as medical.

And Voyager needed only one.

Still, the Enterprise carries the general ordinance of the Federation. Going by what Riker said we can gather a general ability of their fleets ability.


Yeah, SW doesn't have to to do that....

My point is that the Federation are completely unprepared for this event where as the Empire will not have to deal with worlds being unavailable to assault for several weeks.

Yeah, sure:p

What I meant sorry, was main power. Since each capital ship has numerous and alternate backups for individual systems.

So what you're saying is that a fighter has to be standing still before it can be hit. No, I was saying that not all shots hit the Scimitar because it was cloaked and moving.;)

With the systems that are being talked about here, once fired. The Enterprise shouldnt have lost the Scimitar. Considering, according to posters here. Her weapons banks are capable of multiple and numerous phaser burts over a dispersed area. Phasers could have been staggered and thusly the battle kept in check.Why shouldn't they have lost the Scimitar? They can't fire all their phasers on a wide beam setting because that would drain all the energy.
If I got what you were saying:confused:


No but they were in communication and voyager did transmit all logs and technological advancements as well as medical.Well, Strafleet had to test it first and that probably took some time, more so since the only people with some experience with it were in the Delta Quadrant.

Still, the Enterprise carries the general ordinance of the Federation. Going by what Riker said we can gather a general ability of their fleets ability.But the fleets ability has been improved after the Dominion war, the Borg incursions etc.


My point is that the Federation are completely unprepared for this event where as the Empire will not have to deal with worlds being unavailable to assault for several weeks.Well duh, if it's a surprise attack the Empire wouldn't be prepared for it either.


What I meant sorry, was main power. Since each capital ship has numerous and alternate backups for individual systems.Okay:p

Well duh, if it's a surprise attack the Empire wouldn't be prepared for it either.


I think his point was that even without an attendant orbital fleet defending the planet, planetary shields and surface to orbit batteries would ensure any Trek fleet would have a tough fight trying to take it or slag it. It would buy the Empire time to move a rapid response strike force to catch the Trek fleet.

And given that the Rebellion was capable of even setting up a planetary shield of their own on Hoth, the construction of such shields are probably not considerably costly for planetary governments to set up. Key planets such as industrial worlds and such would probably have them as part of the standard package.

Trek worlds are not generally displayed as having significant ground based defense assets. So that puts them at a bigger minus then Empire planets in the event of a surprise attack.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

This site explains how the Star Wars Empire would crush the Star Trek Federation with *very* little effort.

The webmaster of this website is a physicist, he analyzes everything very deeply, even to technology that doesn't even exist.

You'll see...

That site is crap and completely misrepresents ST tech while overstating the abilities of SW tech.

That site is crap and completely misrepresents ST tech while overstating the abilities of SW tech.

Then you need to go to the bookstore and look at the two books themselves. You cannot get enough information about Star Wars technology from the movies to make any of the claims you have made thus far.

Without any proof to back your claims, the rest of us will have to assume you are talking out of your hat.

Prove- That Solo was using 1.5c when he said how fast the Falcon travels in hyperspace.

Prove- That Star Wars weapon and defensive systems are less powerful than their Star Trek counterparts.

Prove- That the Star Wars galaxy is only a fraction the size of our galaxy.

Prove your claims sir.

That site is crap and completely misrepresents ST tech while overstating the abilities of SW tech.

Well, it raises some good points about both tech genres. Just because you don't like it, hardly makes it a rubbish website.

Now back on to the targeting systems of the Federation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruqIB2A5O7w&NR

As you can see, it take the Defiants Targeting computers quite a while to lock on to a relatively slow moving target. :confused:

Now, if we apply this to fighters, well. I just don't think it would have a good time with fast moving objects.

Well, it raises some good points about both tech genres. Just because you don't like it, hardly makes it a rubbish website.
It is a rubbish website.

You could try some of its competitors and compare and contrast (1 (http://www.st-v-sw.net/) 2 (http://www.starfleetjedi.net/)), or you could read it and recognize that it really is just the den of a particularly vitriolic troll.

IDF,
We have no idea what .5 past lightspeed means because no unit of measure was given after the "5"

Unified Sith,
That's not the Defiant. It is a Defiant-class vessel that never got the upgrades and fixes (like patches) that the first Defiant got. That episode was back when the design was new. The Defiant-class was a rushed design meant to fight the Borg. The Valiant was being run by cadets.

We have no idea how big the SW galaxy is unless you go by authorized fan fiction or game maps. Galaxies do not look like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NGC_4414_%28NASA-med%29.jpg) when you are in them. They look more like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Milkyway_pan1.jpg).

We do know that real ion engines provide very poor thrust and do not make good sublight engines. That means that SW ships are very slow at sublight and the capital ships would be sitting ducks by comparison to ST ships.

We also know that the yield of photon torpedoes has increased since TNG. Voyager was armed with torpedoes 8x as strong as those used in TNG (VOY: "Scorpion, Part II"). This was almost certainly done by packing more matter and antimatter into the torpedo.

If the question is whether or not the Federation still has the design for the Genesis device, it does. Has it built another? There is no evidence to suggest it has. Would it build and use the device? Hard to say. It might or it might not. It all depends on who's writing the episode.

Mr. Wong frequently makes mistakes on his site. I've pointed out a couple in this very thread. His site is not a very good resource.

We have no idea how big the SW galaxy is unless you go by authorized fan fiction or game maps.

We do know that real ion engines provide very poor thrust and do not make good sublight engines. That means that SW ships are very slow at sublight and the capital ships would be sitting ducks by comparison to ST ships

you mean non-movie canon...

it can be seen in the movies that SW ships have very good acceleration/speed

Yes, but I prefer to call it fan fiction because that's all it really is. I don't call a banana a yellow just because I call an orange an orange.

They're also suposed to be propelled by ion engines. Those are normally only used as station keeping thrusters for satellites. Face it, SW ships have weak sublight engines and Trek ships could easily outrun them at sublight.

We don't see any reference for the FTL speeds of SW ships because they're inside a tunnel of pure special effects at FTL. We also don't really see much in the way of Trek FTL beyond a bunch of streaking stars. I doubt either are a realistic depiction of FTL travel. And that's assuming FTL travel is even possible.

you also don't say a math problem is wrong just because its done differently



refuring to sublight not FTL, but the SW canon system supports the statment that SW is faster FTL, and on screen SW ships have good speed, so going by movies only SW is not slow. they just have some odd really good ion engions that we don't know how to make or some such

This should be an interesting discussion.

Who wins if there is an all out war between the factions of Star Trek and the factions on Star Wars? (Star Wars can't use the force and Star Trek can't use its supernatural beings like the "Wormhole Aliens" AKA The Prophets.)

I say Star Trek wins it. While Star Wars has the Death Star, most of their technology is far behind Star Trek tech.

The Star Trek ships are faster than Star Wars ships. It was established in canon sources that the Milenium Falcon, fastest ship in SW universe, can only go a few times the speed of light. They say it can get across the galaxy in a short amount of time, but realize they are in a different galaxy which is obviously much smaller than the Milky Way given the numbers given. The USS Enterprise NX-01 can go 125c. The Intrepid and Sovereign class vessels go nearly 7,000c. That's much faster than anything in the Star Wars universe. The Borg also have transwarp which can put them in any spot in the galaxy in a very short amount of time.

The Death Star is very vulnerable against ST tech. The Death Star is not shielded and has serious design flaws. All the Federation has to to is send in Sisko and the Defiant in under cloak (a tech not present in SW). Once cloaked, the Defiant can just beam a few anti-matter mines right into the Death Star's unshielded reactor. The tiny USS Defiant with only 40 crew could destroy the heart of the Empire just like that. Oh yeah, did I mention that SW tech does not include transporters?

In fleet battles, Star Destroyers are vulnerable. The ST ships just have to concentrate fire on the exposed spherical shield generators and then fire on the bridge. A few quantum torpedoes and it is all over.

Tie fighters would be no issue either. They could easily overwhelm technology from Kirk or Archer's era. Kirk's Enterprise only had phaser banks. By TNG, the Enterprise and most ships (exluding Excelsior, Ambassador, Miranda, and Oberth class vessels) were equipped with phaser arrays. The phaser arrays can emit multiple beams on multiple targets simultaneously. Since the tie fighters aren't shielded, just a single low powered blast on each ship should do the trick. The Enterprise D or E could emit a dozen simultaneous phaser beams from any single array and get hits easily due to computer targetting. In a matter of seconds, all 72 tie fighters of a Star Destroyer would be gone. Once again, the tie fighters would only kill obsolete ships that predate Nebula and Galaxy class starships.

This is just with Federation Technology. I haven't even talked about the Cardassians, Dominion (Jem'Hadar, Founders, Vorta), Klingons, Romulans, Borg, or Species 8472. Any one of these factions could destroy the entire Galactic Empire and Rebelion.

Speed: Your evaluating FTL, not actual speed. A X-wing could run rings around even the fastest ST ship. Watch the movies and the TV show and compare them. As for FTL, remember that SW ships travel in hyperspace, not warping real space like in ST. If you compare them, it actually seems like they travel at about the same speed, because they seem to arrive at similar times when compared to when they entered hyperspace/warp speed.

Death Star: Are you kidding? How do you think a Defiant could even fit in there? Cloaking has nothing to do with it. After all, TIE fighters are some of the smallest and most manuverable ships in the SW universe, and even they were in constand danger of crashing against the trench/tunnel walls. In case you've forgotten, both Death stars were about the size of a moon; I seriously doubt they could beam anything that far in. If they launched an antimatter mine at the first Death Star's exhaust port, it would just blow up, because it couldn't fit in there. If fired down the second one's tunnel, it would hit the first twist in the path. Same with quantum torps. Phasers would meet the same fate in the second Death Star, and in order to get the first one, they'd have to send it directly down the port; a near impossibility. As for design flaws, remember the the exhaust port on the first one was necessary in the case of a failure inside the structure itself, and that the rebel forces that attacked it were torn to shreads; the second one, it wasn't even completed, even if it was functional.

Oh, by the way, SW does have at least 1 transporter- the Imperial Lambda shuttle that carried the Rebel commandos down to Endor.

Star Destroyers: You know, the shield generators on the top of Star Destroyers are just as well shielded as the rest of the ship. The only reason that they were destroyed in Ep. 6 is because they had been hammered enough to lower the shields in the area.

TIEs: Huh? You obviously aren't comparing their sizes. Even the sluggish TIE Bomber is so small compared to a Constitution class that I doubt they could get any sort of lock on one. Besides, TIEs are so much faster than ST ships that any luck that let them get a lock would be dispelled when it races by.

My conclusion? :headbang:

Sure a Tie might beat a Constitution class with its outdated phaser emmiters. But, Starfleet went to phaser arrays in its newer classes. Phaser arrays would have no issue against fighters. They would fire at 250,000 km or more. All the fighters would be dead before they got within firing rang.

Why do you think Shinzon didn't use any of his 200 Scorpion fighters agains the Enterprise? Because fighters suck against ST's capital ships.

As for the death star, transporters can go very deep. Remember, the Genesis experiment's underground facilities were in the center of a moon. They beamed down there. ST is now 95 years beyond that point in the timeline so the technology is only better. Plus, Dominion transports can beam across multiple lightyears. Believe me, the DS is dead. Besides, I've already mentioned transphasic torpedoes.

The Star Destroyers would also be vulnerable. A few quantum torpedoes would deplete the shield around the bridge generator. Then just a few more would be needed to kill them.

Sure a Tie might beat a Constitution class with its outdated phaser emmiters. But, Starfleet went to phaser arrays in its newer classes. Phaser arrays would have no issue against fighters. They would fire at 250,000 km or more.

Imperial Capital Ships have a range of 200 million km. Expanded Universe that is, so I expect you to debate it, even though the series themselves can be considered fan fics such as Voyager considering Rodenbery never actually wrote them.

The T.V series are just glorified fan fics on screen instead of in books compared to the original series. Unless you want to change your stance of course?

Why do you think Shinzon didn't use any of his 200 Scorpion fighters agains the Enterprise? Because fighters suck against ST's capital ships.

Because the battle was to go hand in hand with with the plotline. Shinzon Vs Picard. Clone Vs Original. It was a battle between Picard and Shinzon, and no others were allowed to get in the way. He had his ego to nurture. The fact that the Enterprise would own fighters is hardly proven. All I saw was her having a lot of trouble shooting a decloaked ship.

After all once they hit the thing, surely they could have simply fired continuously with multiple banks insuring they never missed.

But they didn't 0_o

As for the death star, transporters can go very deep. Remember, the Genesis experiment's underground facilities were in the center of a moon. They beamed down there. ST is now 95 years beyond that point in the timeline so the technology is only better. Plus, Dominion transports can beam across multiple lightyears. Believe me, the DS is dead. Besides, I've already mentioned transphasic torpedoes.

Which would go war off course thanks to Interdictor Cruisers.

The Star Destroyers would also be vulnerable. A few quantum torpedoes would deplete the shield around the bridge generator. Then just a few more would be needed to kill them.

Until we see a cross over battle between Lucas Films and Paramount that's speculative.

Imperial Capital Ships have a range of 200 million km.oh..my..god...that's so utterly stupid:D Tell me, do their weapons go faster than light? If not, it would be so easy to move out of the way since it takes at least 12 minutes for the weapon to croos those 200 million kilometers:p

Expanded Universe that is, so I expect you to debate it, even though the series themselves can be considered fan fics such as Voyager considering Rodenbery never actually wrote them.SW movies overrule the EU and that Rodenberry never wrote ST:VOY, well, he was kind of dead by then...

The T.V series are just glorified fan fics on screen instead of in books compared to the original series. Unless you want to change your stance of course?Canon fanfics at that;)


Because the battle was to go hand in hand with with the plotline.Torpedo vs DS was a plot line too.

All I saw was her having a lot of trouble shooting a decloaked ship.Whatever, that's just too much nonsense to respond too...

After all once they hit the thing, surely they could have simply fired continuously with multiple banks insuring they never missed.

But they didn't 0_oActually, they did O-0

Until we see a cross over battle between Lucas Films and Paramount that's speculative.
Like all of this debate? No, really:D

oh..my..god...that's so utterly stupid:D Tell me, do their weapons go faster than light? If not, it would be so easy to move out of the way since it takes at least 12 minutes for the weapon to croos those 200 million kilometers:p

No one ever said it was a moving target. Either way Imperial weapons are very capable of vast ranges.

SW movies overrule the EU and that Rodenberry never wrote ST:VOY, well, he was kind of dead by then...

Canon fanfics at that;)

Just as the Expanded Universe of Star Wars is. I would assume we can now reach an agreement upon this.

Torpedo vs DS was a plot line too.

Naturally, and the Death Star exploded. However my point is this. There is no real proof that Trek ships can take out fighters easily and within seconds. If this was the case, why would the Federation even bother in employing fighters during the Dominion wars?

And why would Sisko send them into combat against a line of capital ships if they were going to be swatted like flys?

hatever, that's just too much nonsense to respond too...

Hardly. People glorify Trek abilities to target. My points is, that the Scimitar shouldnt have been lost at all with the Enterprises alleged phaser capabilities when hit.

A simple dispersal pattern, around the target area would be able to plot the course and location of the vessel. Yet, such efforts seemed to be incapable of being used.

When the Scimitar was hit it became detectable to sensors. Course and velocity would have been easy to plot. Yet, it wasnt giving me further proof of the limitations of Federation tactical capability.

Actually, they did O-0

No they didn't. They lost the scimitar constantly.


Like all of this debate? No, really:D

Well until we agree upon the strength of Imperial shield capabilities and Federation weapons we won't be able to give a solid and accepted answer. Most of our problems result in the refusal of most players to ignore SW Expanded Universe statistics. Which can only be applied to the movies considering the movies do not give actual numbers.

Just as the Expanded Universe of Star Wars is. I would assume we can now reach an agreement upon this.

...

Most of our problems result in the refusal of most players to ignore SW Expanded Universe statistics. Which can only be applied to the movies considering the movies do not give actual numbers.

It should be agreed that as George Lucas has declared that EU is cannon as long as it does not contradict what has been seen in the movies. That's just it and I think ST fans should agree that it is indeed cannon.

Almost everything in EU also does not contradict movies. Including beforementioned firing ranges, fast hyperspace speed (extremely fast compared to ST) as well as ion guns that ST ships would be hard time withstanding.

The main reason because SW's Empire would utterly destroy ST's Federation is that:

ST is mainly Science Fiction: that is, ST tries to be "reasonable" when future tech is represented.

SW is mainly Space Opera, that is, Fantasy with a Sci-Fi look: so, things are naturally "bigger than life" (or bigger than standard, sci-fi imagination, at least in Lucas' intention).

It should be agreed that as George Lucas has declared that EU is cannon as long as it does not contradict what has been seen in the movies. That's just it and I think ST fans should agree that it is indeed cannon.

Almost everything in EU also does not contradict movies. Including beforementioned firing ranges, fast hyperspace speed (extremely fast compared to ST) as well as ion guns that ST ships would be hard time withstanding.
Depends who you ask. Both on what Lucas has declared (http://blogs.starwars.com/Rayten/25) and on whether or not the EU contradicts the movies (http://blogs.starwars.com/pantlesswookiee/5). There are raging wars among the fandom about it.

I've been brushing up on my geekery a bit, so I feel qualified to enter this discussion now.

In terms of pure technological advancement, Star Trek wins.

- Matter-Energy Conversion
- Viable Antimatter Power Generation
- Transporters
- Holographic technology
- Weather Control

But it's application that counts if you're actually pitting the two universes against one another, and on this I have to side with stardestroyer.net - Star Wars' universe seems geared for war in ways that Star Trek's many worlds isn't. A vast economic base. Faster interstellar travel. Gigantic starships.

I'm not sure how the Borg fit in - they became sorta clownish in Voyager, a villain that could be defeated by pretty much anyone. But before that, I could definitely see how they would assimilate SW technology with the voracity of a starving prisoner gnawing on a cockroach.

Star Trek is no longer nerdy. It's on Spike TV, the only channel dedicated for men. Therefore it is now officially cool.:p

I see no logic behind this statement...

To the posters who said the Federation is too moral to do anything, you obviously have never seen an episode of DS9. Sure Picard might be a moral goody two shoes, but not everyone in Starfleet is like that.

Just look at Section 31. They have gone so far as to attempt genocide and kill those in their way.

Then there is Sisko's shady dealings with Garak in what is possibly the greatest of the 706 Star Trek episodes produced, "In the Pale Moonlight." In this episode, we see Sisko and Garak use deceit and murder to draw the Romulans into the Dominion War.

One thing not addressed is time travel in ST. SW is unable to use time travel. ST on the other hand can do it easily. The USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) performed Time Warp by slingshoting around the sun at maximum warp. Time warp is something that can be easily performed to go back to the start of life on Coruscant. At that point, a trilithium torpedo can be fired into the star in that system. Goodbye Coruscant!

"At 0800 Hours station time, the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They have already struck 15 bases along the Cardassian border. So this is a huge victory for the good guys! This may even be the turning point of the entire war. There is even a 'welcome to the fight' party tonight in the wardroom. So... I lied, I cheated, I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it... because I can live with it... I can live with it. Computer, erase that entire personal log."

- Captain Benjamin Sisko

While it might take time for the Federation to prepare Starfleet for an all-out war, they would win in the end. If nothing else, the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, Suliban, and Xindi could hold them off while Starfleet prepares for war.

And I would dispute the OP comments regarding TIE fighters. In Shockwave: Part 2, Enterprise was able to hold their own against a swarm of Suliban ships, which were at least as agile as, and certainly tougher than, TIE fighters.

Not to mention that in a war against the Galactic Empire, the Federation would immediately issue cloaking devices for every ship in the fleet. This, combined with the ubiquity of cloaking technology among the Klingons, Romulans, and Suliban would lead to a ST victory.

While it might take time for the Federation to prepare Starfleet for an all-out war, they would win in the end. If nothing else, the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, Suliban, and Xindi could hold them off while Starfleet prepares for war.

And I would dispute the OP comments regarding TIE fighters. In Shockwave: Part 2, Enterprise was able to hold their own against a swarm of Suliban ships, which were at least as agile as, and certainly tougher than, TIE fighters.

Not to mention that in a war against the Galactic Empire, the Federation would immediately issue cloaking devices for every ship in the fleet. This, combined with the ubiquity of cloaking technology among the Klingons, Romulans, and Suliban would lead to a ST victory.

the Empire could hit the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, Suliban, and Xindi all at the same time, with little preperation for them, and not all TIEs are bad, the TIE Defender could do more then any other craft like it. and cloaking devices are out of the question...as the Romulans would very much hate that. they only allowed the Defient to have a cloaking device if a Romulan supervised it and if the Defient shared any info it gained with the Romulans IIRC...


and ever notice how the Fed ships seem to have things go off line after only a short amount of time taking fire?

after only only a short amount of time its "shields down to 70%, weapons offline" or something...

if the force is against the rules then so should timetravel...your example is a difference in the universes not tech

the Empire could hit the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, Suliban, and Xindi all at the same time, with little preperation for them, and not all TIEs are bad, the TIE Defender could do more then any other craft like it. and cloaking devices are out of the question...as the Romulans would very much hate that. they only allowed the Defient to have a cloaking device if a Romulan supervised it and if the Defient shared any info it gained with the Romulans IIRC...


and ever notice how the Fed ships seem to have things go off line after only a short amount of time taking fire?

after only only a short amount of time its "shields down to 70%, weapons offline" or something...

if the force is against the rules then so should timetravel...your example is a difference in the universes not tech

Time travel is done through technilogical means. Now Vulcan or Betazoid powers aren't so they aren't allowed. If you use technology to achieve timewarp, then it is allowed.

Oh no ST can easly defeat the death star which was designed to blow up planets

Oh no here comes a huge fleet of Star destroyers which all have more weapons, more fighters and are are larger than ST ships

Ypu have to think about more than just the Death star for SW

Oh no ST can easly defeat the death star which was designed to blow up planets

Oh no here comes a huge fleet of Star destroyers which all have more weapons, more fighters and are are larger than ST ships

Ypu have to think about more than just the Death star for SW

1) Star Destroyers have pathetic shields and very weak hulls.
2) Fighters are stupid in space
3) SW ships use crappy fusion generators to power their ships, which means their power generation is a fraction of the smallest real ST ship.

and for another thing 40k would pwn all of them

in 40k even escorts can have the power to detroy entire planets with vortex torphedos and the captial ships are larger in 40k than in anything else

not to mention the space marines terminators boarding squads which would just completely crush any SW or ST ships crews

1) Star Destroyers have pathetic shields and very weak hulls.
2) Fighters are stupid in space
3) SW ships use crappy fusion generators to power their ships, which means their power generation is a fraction of the smallest real ST ship.

1) that may be true but they have numbers and powerful weapons systems
and before anyone mentions that ST shields are so strong i have 2 words for u ion cannon
2) fighters may be but bombers are not
3) i'll take ur word on that cos i'm not a big enough geek to know stuff like that

and for another thing 40k would pwn all of them

in 40k even escorts can have the power to detroy entire planets with vortex torphedos and the captial ships are larger in 40k than in anything else

not to mention the space marines terminators boarding squads which would just completely crush any SW or ST ships crews


No one cares