NationStates Jolt Archive

That's perfectly possible. It's possible the kid just didn't do her work, and then tried to retroactively claim some kind of "moral objection" to cover her ass. It's possible that her parents found out about the assignment she didn't do, and decided to use it as a springboard for their own agenda.

All pure speculation. I just think it's worth remembering that this is a KID we're talking about, a kid who has parents. I don't believe parents should be held responsible for all their kids' mistakes, but I do think they have some responsibility for how they choose to handle those mistakes.Of course, it just seems to me that the girl flat out refused when the assignment was given and therefore probably didn't even have time to confer with her parents. It appears that she didn't learn this kind of behavior in school, though.

That assignment is probably one of the most retarded things possible. I'm happy the girl stood up for her beliefs agaisnt such ridiculous things. I probably wouldn;t have done it either or have done it in a very anti-homosexual way.

I notice that the side of the debate that supports this action by the girl's family keeps avoiding this question. So once more. Would you support the right of a student who's racist to refuse to do any assignments mentioning black people.

Because it's a part of their religious belief. Say that they're members of Christian Identity.

Yes or no. It seems a simple enough question so it's odd that you're all evading it.

Isn't it true that Christians these days consider themselves to be under attack and a philosophical minority (even though numerically they're anything but)?

A minority of Christians do, but the majority do not.

Other than that, however, I wholeheartedly agree with what you had to say. This assignment appears to have been perfect for someone who wishes to describe feelings of persecution. I'm not sure why it was passed up.

A minority of Christians do, but the majority do not.

Other than that, however, I wholeheartedly agree with what you had to say. This assignment appears to have been perfect for someone who wishes to describe feelings of persecution. I'm not sure why it was passed up.

Agreed… and if she had DONE it no matter what view point she choose to take on the issue as long as it followed the general guidelines to the assignment, I would be on her side if she then got a bad grade ... she did not do that here

A minority of Christians do, but the majority do not.

Other than that, however, I wholeheartedly agree with what you had to say. This assignment appears to have been perfect for someone who wishes to describe feelings of persecution. I'm not sure why it was passed up.But you read why: She doesn't believe in homosexuals! :p

Religion and politics are always touchy subjects. However, this girl and her mother should open their minds to ideas of tolerence and acceptance:p

But you read why: She doesn't believe in homosexuals! :p

You mean ... :eek: fairies don't exist??!??!?

But you read why: She doesn't believe in homosexuals! :p

I have decided that I don't believe in viruses. In fact, diseases are caused by thetans.

Next time I have to read a paper that involves viruses, I'm going to refuse to do it!

We can all get out of our jobs and schoolwork by simply refusing to believe in the topic of discussion! How fun!

=)

You mean ... :eek: fairies don't exist??!??!?MY GOODNESS! There we have it! She got the slang word confused with the reference to mythical beings! :eek:

I have decided that I don't believe in viruses. In fact, diseases are caused by thetans.

Next time I have to read a paper that involves viruses, I'm going to refuse to do it!

We can all get out of our jobs and schoolwork by simply refusing to believe in the topic of discussion! How fun!

=)Yeah, I almost wish I could to that with my geology assignment. Superimposition and uniformitarianism be damned! Those faultlines aren't wrong! :D

I have decided that I don't believe in viruses. In fact, diseases are caused by thetans.

Next time I have to read a paper that involves viruses, I'm going to refuse to do it!

We can all get out of our jobs and schoolwork by simply refusing to believe in the topic of discussion! How fun!

=)

Where was this when I was in school? Life would have been sooooo much easier!

I cant imagine having enough conviction at age 13 to actually refuse an assignment and have the balls to carry that through to the end.
Unless you're a good mindless little religious zealot.

You mean ... :eek: fairies don't exist??!??!?
:fluffle:

*Hands over a cookie*

You win at teh interweb.

:fluffle:

*Hands over a cookie*

You win at teh interweb.

*chomp* Yay.

It's not permissible where I am for the school to keep the curriculum from the parents. That's a first class invitation to a lawsuit, where the parents will not only win, but make a lot of money from the taxpayers.

No secret curriculum here.

Exactly right; I bet the same would happen here in Tennessee, too. The school's position is intolerable; the school could have at least given the girl an alternative assignment. I agree with the girl and her mother on this one. If it were me, I would have done almost the same thing; the only thing I would have done different is disobey the school's politically incorrect order not to tell my parents about this and tell them immediately anyway. :p

Yet another blatant example of liberal ideology being forced down the throats of children in the classroom. If this was the version of the worksheet, I'm sure the liberal media would be in a flurry over it.

Imagine you are a liberal living in a moon colony, mostly dominated by conservatives. What strategies would you employ to help cope with you minority ideas? Explain some of the ideas behind conservatism. How do you feel about being in the minority?

Tolerance and accetptance, my ass. This assignment was way out of line and the outright admonishment to NOT tell the parents was just wrong. My child does NOTHING without my knowledge. I know about every assignment given out. Personally, I would sue.

Yet another blatant example of liberal ideology being forced down the throats of children in the classroom. If this was the version of the worksheet, I'm sure the liberal media would be in a flurry over it.

Imagine you are a liberal living in a moon colony, mostly dominated by conservatives. What strategies would you employ to help cope with you minority ideas? Explain some of the ideas behind conservatism. How do you feel about being in the minority?

Yep, we've done it again. I think you missed the suggestion above that perhaps the girl and her parents missed a golden opportunity to put forward their conservative, Christian beliefs by actually completing the assignment.

As for the liberal media, we Liberals spent a lot of good money to buy those people and we expect to get value for our dollars. They had better not make a fuss over this or any other persecution of conservatives and christians unless we tell them to.

Yet another blatant example of liberal ideology being forced down the throats of children in the classroom. If this was the version of the worksheet, I'm sure the liberal media would be in a flurry over it.

Imagine you are a liberal living in a moon colony, mostly dominated by conservatives. What strategies would you employ to help cope with you minority ideas? Explain some of the ideas behind conservatism. How do you feel about being in the minority?

Maybe or maybe not ... but if a student were to refuse to do that sort of assignment compleatly they would be deserving of a bad grade as well

Imagine you are a liberal living in a moon colony, mostly dominated by conservatives. What strategies would you employ to help cope with you minority ideas? Explain some of the ideas behind conservatism. How do you feel about being in the minority?Reminds me of summer camp, actually. I try to avoid talking about politics and find other things that we have in common instead.

It is such a shame that the liberal atheistic/agnostic minority in this country is trying to force their agenda down the throats of the right-wing Christian majority. :mad:

Has anyone ever stopped to think that we, the right-wing Christian majority, are the one's who are really offended by this? :(

What a shame. :headbang:

My fellow Christian brothers and sisters: STAND AND FIGHT!!! :sniper:

As for the liberal media, we Liberals spent a lot of good money to buy those people and we expect to get value for our dollars. They had better not make a fuss over this or any other persecution of conservatives and christians unless we tell them to.

Yep, I got my receipt for 'controlling the media to enforce PC/liberal/homosexual agenda' right here beside my ACLU card and Democrat party card.

As for the OP, as a leftist growing up in rural north america, this essay would have been a great platform to discuss how I was surrounded by people who thought my beliefs were wrong. She rightfully deserves a failing grade.

It is such a shame that the liberal atheistic/agnostic minority in this country is trying to force their agenda down the throats of the right-wing Christian majority. :mad:

Has anyone ever stopped to think that we, the right-wing Christian majority, are the one's who are really offended by this? :(

What a shame. :headbang:

My fellow Christian brothers and sisters: STAND AND FIGHT!!! :sniper:

Who cares if you find it to be a sin? what does that have to do with this assingment?

Let me guess... this has been 19 pages of Christian Conservatives showing their true colors of prejudice and intolerance in the name of religious freedom with sane people becoming very frustrated and outraged?

Yeah... I thought so. Really don't need to read all the way through on these topics anymore. I'm advancing to Expert Generalite.

It is such a shame that the liberal atheistic/agnostic minority in this country is trying to force their agenda down the throats of the right-wing Christian majority. :mad:

Has anyone ever stopped to think that we, the right-wing Christian majority, are the one's who are really offended by this? :(

What a shame. :headbang:

My fellow Christian brothers and sisters: STAND AND FIGHT!!! :sniper:Back it up with statistics, buddy. I don't believe you.

It is such a shame that the liberal atheistic/agnostic minority in this country is trying to force their agenda down the throats of the right-wing Christian majority. :mad:

Has anyone ever stopped to think that we, the right-wing Christian majority, are the one's who are really offended by this? :(

What a shame. :headbang:

My fellow Christian brothers and sisters: STAND AND FIGHT!!! :sniper:

Who cares? You guys are not that great if a minority can control you.

It is such a shame that the liberal atheistic/agnostic minority in this country is trying to force their agenda down the throats of the right-wing Christian majority. :mad:

Has anyone ever stopped to think that we, the right-wing Christian majority, are the one's who are really offended by this? :(

What a shame. :headbang:

My fellow Christian brothers and sisters: STAND AND FIGHT!!! :sniper:

The rights of the individual are sometimes more important than the will of the majority. When Romans were rounding up and killing Christians, they did so with the support of the majority.

All the stupid idiotic questions directed at me from each liberal on this board just goes to show how retarded and sick-minded all of you really are. :p

Oh, and BS, you are aware that this particular scenario took place in Australia, no?

All the stupid idiotic questions directed at me from each liberal on this board just goes to show how retarded and sick-minded all of you really are. :p

I find the most disturbing part of this whole post is the smiley face. Why?

All the stupid idiotic questions directed at me from each liberal on this board just goes to show how retarded and sick-minded all of you really are. :pAnswer my questions then, I'm not a liberal.

I find the most disturbing part of this whole post is the smiley face. Why?Because it's probably flame- or trollbaiting?

MeansToAnEnd, that other guy, and Biblical Socialism are all dumbasses.

Yes, dumbasses.

Try reading the entire thread next time, guys. Or at least one post per page. Good try, though, what with that self righteousness and all. Too bad it didn't work out.

The rights of the individual are sometimes more important than the will of the majority. When Romans were rounding up and killing Christians, they did so with the support of the majority.

And, more to the point, the Christians were breaking the law. All you had to do was sacrifice to the Emperor and you were home free. And you got a nice certificate, too. We've found some in Egypt.

All the stupid idiotic questions directed at me from each liberal on this board just goes to show how retarded and sick-minded all of you really are. :p
How Christian of you, to use the word "retarded" as a slur. I'm sure that Jesus was fond of refering to his critics as a bunch of 'tards.

I notice that the side of the debate that supports this action by the girl's family keeps avoiding this question. So once more. Would you support the right of a student who's racist to refuse to do any assignments mentioning black people.

Because it's a part of their religious belief. Say that they're members of Christian Identity.

Yes or no. It seems a simple enough question so it's odd that you're all evading it.
Wait, you want them to answer simple questions? That's against their religion, dude. Why you gotta be oppressing them? You're just part of the repressive librul gay machine!!!!shift1!

Wait, you want them to answer simple questions? That's against their religion, dude. Why you gotta be oppressing them? You're just part of the repressive librul gay machine!!!!shift1!

The shift always makes me chuckle. =)

Answer my questions then, I'm not a liberal.

He called you a dirty word actually.

Many of his ilk think liberal is dirty.

Yet another blatant example of liberal ideology being forced down the throats of children in the classroom.

How so?

If this was the version of the worksheet, I'm sure the liberal media would be in a flurry over it.

Imagine you are a liberal living in a moon colony, mostly dominated by conservatives. What strategies would you employ to help cope with you minority ideas? Explain some of the ideas behind conservatism. How do you feel about being in the minority?

Actually, in a government class, that might be a very good assignment. And you could do it both ways - with either the views generally seen as "liberal" or the views generally seen as "conservative" being in the minority. It gives the students the opportunity to explore both ideas and imagine themselves in either role.

And, more to the point, the Christians were breaking the law. All you had to do was sacrifice to the Emperor and you were home free. And you got a nice certificate, too. We've found some in Egypt.

That rocks. Do you have a link?

It is such a shame that the liberal atheistic/agnostic minority in this country is trying to force their agenda down the throats of the right-wing Christian majority. :mad:

Has anyone ever stopped to think that we, the right-wing Christian majority, are the one's who are really offended by this? :(

Have you ever stopped to think that your feelings might not be as important as you believe they are?

If it offends you that gay people exist, that's just going to have to be your cross to bear. A lot of people are were offended when the slaves were freed, when women earned the vote, and when little negro boys and girls were allowed to go to *gasp* white schools. They learned the same lesson that you need to learn. You ready for it? Here it is:

You have no constitutionally-protected right to not be offended.

You do not have the legal right to never get your feelings hurt.

The fact that you don't like something means precisely dick in the eyes of the law. The fact that a whole lot of your friends agree with you also means precisely dick in the eyes of the law. This is because our system of law is founded upon (among other things) the principle that the hurt feelings of the majority don't trump the legal rights of the minority.


What a shame. :headbang:

My fellow Christian brothers and sisters: STAND AND FIGHT!!! :sniper:
Stand and fight against what? The meanie-head teachers who want to make you do your homework? The jerks who insist that you don't get to coast through life using your "faith" as an excuse to do a piss-poor job whenever you feel like it?

Meh. These are the same complaints made by "rebelious" kids who are pissed off that The Man won't let them smoke pot and fuck all day long. You'll grow out of it.

He called you a dirty word actually.

Many of his ilk think liberal is dirty.Technically, I do too. I have little love for the part of the political spectrum that liberals tend to occupy in unskewed political spectrums.

Tolerance and accetptance, my ass. This assignment was way out of line and the outright admonishment to NOT tell the parents was just wrong. My child does NOTHING without my knowledge. I know about every assignment given out. Personally, I would sue.

Why was the assigment out of line? Is it wrong to ask students to examine society and to think about how it could be different? Although I can't be sure, I'm guessing that the assignment didn't involve parents because the point was not to ask your parents for the answers, but for the student to determine them himself. How would the student feel in such a society, not how would the parent feel.

And your child does nothing without your knowledge? Are you kidding? If this is true, then you are obviously abusing your child by keeping him/her under lock and key day and night with constant surveillance in the room. If you aren't doing this and you *think* it is true, then you are incredibly naive. Your child does all sorts of things without your knowledge. Indeed, your child needs to do these things to form his/her own identity.

And, finally, I highly doubt that you get a detailed list of every assignment given out at your local school. Nor do you need to.

Actually, in a government class, that might be a very good assignment. And you could do it both ways - with either the views generally seen as "liberal" or the views generally seen as "conservative" being in the minority. It gives the students the opportunity to explore both ideas and imagine themselves in either role."Might"? That's a friggin awesome assignment, no doubt about it.

Let me guess... this has been 19 pages of Christian Conservatives showing their true colors of prejudice and intolerance in the name of religious freedom with sane people becoming very frustrated and outraged?
Just for the record, I hope that the sane NS Christians will be able to see why crap like this inclines some of us to hold less-than-favorable opinions of members of their faith. I know, it's not fair of me to generalize the actions of a few loud idiots to cover all members of a faith, but you've got to admit...we have yet to see a single person coming in to this thread talking about how Vishnu hates fags, or how Allah will make the homos burn in Hell. It can be very difficult for a non-hetero to keep a positive view of a faith that produces creatures like these.

Just for the record, I hope that the sane NS Christians will be able to see why crap like this inclines some of us to hold less-than-favorable opinions of members of their faith. I know, it's not fair of me to generalize the actions of a few loud idiots to cover all members of a faith, but you've got to admit...we have yet to see a single person coming in to this thread talking about how Vishnu hates fags, or how Allah will make the homos burn in Hell. It can be very difficult for a non-hetero to keep a positive view of a faith that produces creatures like these.

Let me not insult Christian Conservatives who think for themselves and are able to rise above this crap. Let it just stand at the majority of them.

Props to the young lady and her parents.

And how revealing that the out-of-control PC ideologues running the school system intended to keep parents from learning of their efforts to indoctrinate impressionable young minds with the notion that homosexuality is equivalent to, and interchangeable with, heterosexuality.

One can only wonder how many other students were flunked or were given lowered grades for expressing any opinion other than slavish acceptance of the prevailing orthodoxy, "tolerance", i.e., approval, of the homosexual lifestyle choice.

Public education systems throughout the Western world unfortunately seem attract people whose goal in life is to remake society according to their PC agenda. Captive audiences of children are ideal for this purpose. The result is generation after generation of intellectual paralytics who regurgitate the party line under threat to their future access to higher education.

This incident is just further evidence that public education systems (at least under university level) must either be purged and re-constituted to focus on reading, writing, science and other substantive matters, or, better yet, abolished and replaced with independent private schools.

Have you ever stopped to think that your feelings might not be as important as you believe they are?

If it offends you that gay people exist, that's just going to have to be your cross to bear. A lot of people are were offended when the slaves were freed, when women earned the vote, and when little negro boys and girls were allowed to go to *gasp* white schools. They learned the same lesson that you need to learn. You ready for it? Here it is:

You have no constitutionally-protected right to not be offended.

You do not have the legal right to never get your feelings hurt.

The fact that you don't like something means precisely dick in the eyes of the law. The fact that a whole lot of your friends agree with you also means precisely dick in the eyes of the law. This is because our system of law is founded upon (among other things) the principle that the hurt feelings of the majority don't trump the legal rights of the minority.


Stand and fight against what? The meanie-head teachers who want to make you do your homework? The jerks who insist that you don't get to coast through life using your "faith" as an excuse to do a piss-poor job whenever you feel like it?

Meh. These are the same complaints made by "rebelious" kids who are pissed off that The Man won't let them smoke pot and fuck all day long. You'll grow out of it.

I hope not (for my sake) :D good post agree totally. christians, listen to dimmu borgir and take a hike!

... how Allah will make the homos burn in Hell.Radical muslims think like that too, you know. Just because we don't have any on this forum doesn't mean they don't exist. Might I remind you of the way those two "child molesters" were handled in Iran...

Let me not insult Christian Conservatives who think for themselves and are able to rise above this crap. Let it just stand at the majority of them.
I'm not trying to insult them, and I want to re-emphasize that I don't actually think it's fair to generalize the behavior of a few kooks as if they represented all conservative Christians.

I'm just asking said conservative Christians to recognize why it might take a little effort to maintain this distinction. In other words, the next time some gay liberal kid posts a rant about how all Christians are bigots and assholes, just remember the shit we've seen in this thread and try to empathize for a moment. It doesn't mean the generalization is correct, of course, but it might help everybody remember that such feelings are not totally made up out of thin air.

Radical muslims think like that too, you know. Just because we don't have any on this forum doesn't mean they don't exist. Might I remind you of the way those two "child molesters" were handled in Iran...
Again, I'm not saying the generalizations would actually be correct, I'm just asking that Christians recognize that this thread is a great example of why many people have such negative stereotypes about Christianity. It doesn't mean the stereotypes are right or fair, but it does mean that Christians can recognize that people aren't just making shit up to be mean to Christians.

Whenever somebody posts an "anti-Christian" thread, there's always at least a few people who feel the need to post "Why us?" sob stories. They insist that Christianity isn't bad at all, and they just can't understand why mean old secularist liberal abortion doctor gays always have to pick on them. Well, here's their answer.

I'm not trying to insult them, and I want to re-emphasize that I don't actually think it's fair to generalize the behavior of a few kooks as if they represented all conservative Christians.

I'm just asking said conservative Christians to recognize why it might take a little effort to maintain this distinction. In other words, the next time some gay liberal kid posts a rant about how all Christians are bigots and assholes, just remember the shit we've seen in this thread and try to empathize for a moment. It doesn't mean the generalization is correct, of course, but it might help everybody remember that such feelings are not totally made up out of thin air.

Now lets see how one of these guys twist your clear post to make you seem intolerant of Christianity.

Again, I'm not saying the generalizations would actually be correct, I'm just asking that Christians recognize that this thread is a great example of why many people have such negative stereotypes about Christianity. It doesn't mean the stereotypes are right or fair, but it does mean that Christians can recognize that people aren't just making shit up to be mean to Christians. And one of those reasons being, we don't interact with the dickheads from other religions on a regular basis. ;)

It is such a shame that the liberal atheistic/agnostic minority in this country is trying to force their agenda down the throats of the right-wing Christian majority. :mad:

Has anyone ever stopped to think that we, the right-wing Christian majority, are the one's who are really offended by this? :(

What a shame. :headbang:

My fellow Christian brothers and sisters: STAND AND FIGHT!!! :sniper:

This story is from Queensland. Unless you're Australian, I don't know what you're whining about in this case with all your "this country" talk.

And aren't you Christian types meant to love everyone? I guess the real question is, can the rest of us handle all this Christian love you're radiating! :p

Again, I'm not saying the generalizations would actually be correct, I'm just asking that Christians recognize that this thread is a great example of why many people have such negative stereotypes about Christianity. It doesn't mean the stereotypes are right or fair, but it does mean that Christians can recognize that people aren't just making shit up to be mean to Christians.

Whenever somebody posts an "anti-Christian" thread, there's always at least a few people who feel the need to post "Why us?" sob stories. They insist that Christianity isn't bad at all, and they just can't understand why mean old secularist liberal abortion doctor gays always have to pick on them. Well, here's their answer.

next thing I'll make abortions MANDATORY just to piss off christians :p

And one of those reasons being, we don't interact with the dickheads from other religions on a regular basis. ;)
Absolutely.

Wow, this has got to be the most retarded thing I've read in such a long time (I mean what happened in the story). What in the hell is wrong with that school trying to force kids to "imagine themselves as a minority heterosexual group in a homosexual moon colony" WtF?! Are you kidding me? Shit when I was in middle school we never even touched the subject formally and no one really gave a shit.

I think it's just wrong for them to fail the kid and then suggest she transfer just because they wanted a young child (remember she's was only 13, if this were a highschool assignment I wouldn't think anything's wrong with it) to do something that she felt really uncomfortable about....

So retarded, excuse my French. Sadly I can see the day something like that come to pass at home here in the states. Ekkhh.....

But really.. they're just people who don't want to fuck other people with different parts.. Who gives a shit?! Gay this, gayrights that, gay gay gay gay gay homomomomomoMOMO! Today's world is too fixated on somethings.

(and before anyone points a torch at me.. one of my good friends at school is gay.)


Originally Posted by Biblical Socialism View Post
It is such a shame that the liberal atheistic/agnostic minority in this country is trying to force their agenda down the throats of the right-wing Christian majority.

Has anyone ever stopped to think that we, the right-wing Christian majority, are the one's who are really offended by this?

What a shame.

My fellow Christian brothers and sisters: STAND AND FIGHT!!!

Dude, you should really attempt to open your eyes to the other ethnic/religious groups in your country (Im assuming US). There are Muslims, Jews, Hinuds, people who don't care, ducks, and canine americans, the US is by no means a theocracy, God help us if it ever becomes one. 'Cuz if it did you can be sure about one thing, the amount of resulting bloodshed on US hands would make present day look like Pax Romana.

That rocks. Do you have a link?

The one I'm thinking of is quoted in Paul Johnson's A History of Christianity. I don't have the book in front of me to give the text of it. I suppose some digging on the internet might turn something up.

I recommend Johnson's book, by the way, it's a very readable, not too terribly long survey of the development of Christianity from what he calls the "Jesus Sect" to the world-bestriding colossus we know today. In fact, it was all the religion threads on NSG that sent me to dig it off the shelf.

Dude, you should really attempt to open your eyes to the other ethnic/religious groups in your country (Im assuming US). There are Muslims, Jews, Hinuds, people who don't care, ducks, and canine americans, the US is by no means a theocracy, God help us if it ever becomes one. 'Cuz if it did you can be sure about one thing, the amount of resulting bloodshed on US hands would make present day look like Pax Romana.And mindsets like these are what exercises like that are meant to help avoid.

Wow, this has got to be the most retarded thing I've read in such a long time (I mean what happened in the story). What in the hell is wrong with that school trying to force kids to "imagine themselves as a minority heterosexual group in a homosexual moon colony" WtF?! Are you kidding me? Shit when I was in middle school we never even touched the subject formally and no one really gave a shit.

I think it's just wrong for them to fail the kid and then suggest she transfer just because they wanted a young child (remember she's was only 13, if this were a highschool assignment I wouldn't think anything's wrong with it) to do something that she felt really uncomfortable about....

So retarded, excuse my French. Sadly I can see the day something like that come to pass at home here in the states. Ekkhh.....

But really.. they're just people who don't want to fuck other people with different parts.. Who gives a shit?! Gay this, gayrights that, gay gay gay gay gay homomomomomoMOMO! Today's world is too fixated on somethings.

(and before anyone points a torch at me.. one of my good friends at school is gay.)




Dude, you should really attempt to open your eyes to the other ethnic/religious groups in your country (Im assuming US). There are Muslims, Jews, Hinuds, people who don't care, ducks, and canine americans, the US is by no means a theocracy, God help us if it ever becomes one. 'Cuz if it did you can be sure about one thing, the amount of resulting bloodshed on US hands would make present day look like Pax Romana.

And how old are you? You must realize that you can't just NOT do an assignment, regardless of how rediculous, and not expect to get a failing grade for that assignment.

And what's so rediculous about having a student gain some empathy for someone else? Just because it's how you were when YOU were a kid doesn't mean it's how it is now or even how it is in that area of where she lives - in my area, a lot of kids that age were constantly saying "that's gay" and "such a faggot" and "what a homo", and for the most part they knew what they were saying. I think if more kids grew up learning to empathize with others better, they wouldn't make such heartless comments, and CERTAINLY wouldn't base it off of their 'religious beliefs'.

And mindsets like these are what exercises like that are meant to help avoid.

I'm sorry could you rephrase that? I have no idea what on Earth you just said.

I'm sorry could you rephrase that? I have no idea what on Earth you just said.You told him to open his mind. Doing assignments like that is what opens your mind.

I'm sorry could you rephrase that? I have no idea what on Earth you just said.

Meaning that assignments like these help broaden people's views, like you suggested for our friend from Tennessee.

And how old are you? You must realize that you can't just NOT do an assignment, regardless of how rediculous, and not expect to get a failing grade for that assignment.

And what's so rediculous about having a student gain some empathy for someone else? Just because it's how you were when YOU were a kid doesn't mean it's how it is now or even how it is in that area of where she lives - in my area, a lot of kids that age were constantly saying "that's gay" and "such a faggot" and "what a homo", and for the most part they knew what they were saying. I think if more kids grew up learning to empathize with others better, they wouldn't make such heartless comments, and CERTAINLY wouldn't base it off of their 'religious beliefs'.

My argument is that the kid is too young to be presented with something like this, hell it's just not right. I mean, her mind is too young for a topic such as this, most kids that age are thinking about the person they have a crush on, not wether or not they may or may not be gay.

And it's not being wrong to gain empathy for a person but the assignment is simply ludicrous. --Imagine how life would be living in a minority of heteros in a community of homos? I'll tell you what, in fifty years there would be more heteros than homos-- but that's not the point, what is is that it is by far the silliest assignment I have ever heard of. And what is there to gain empathy for? Society puts too much emphasis on gays to begin with, turning the entire discussion into an almost taboo subject making anyone who thinks it isn't right (but they arent fanatically religious) be labeled a homophobe. I say just let them be. They don't want to have sex with other people. How is that supposed to have any effect at all on anyone else?

And for your other question I'm 16.

Meaning that assignments like these help broaden people's views, like you suggested for our friend from Tennessee.
I agree with what your saying, it's just my oppinion that 13 is too early an age to fully introduce the topic. Funny enough I consider 14 a more appropriate age.

My argument is that the kid is too young to be presented with something like this, hell it's just not right. I mean, her mind is too young for a topic such as this, most kids that age are thinking about the person they have a crush on, not wether or not they may or may not be gay.Disagree. It's not an assignment about sex, and its important that kids realize that. It's about being different, and being in the minority.

I notice that the side of the debate that supports this action by the girl's family keeps avoiding this question. So once more. Would you support the right of a student who's racist to refuse to do any assignments mentioning black people.

Because it's a part of their religious belief. Say that they're members of Christian Identity.

Yes or no. It seems a simple enough question so it's odd that you're all evading it.

*Tumbleweed*

Disagree. It's not an assignment about sex, and its important that kids realize that. It's about being different, and being in the minority.

If she had said that gay people were diseased and immoral, and that she would stay the hell away from them, she would have received an "F." She was forced to turn her back on her religious upbringing to complete that assignment -- such a choice should not be necessary in school.

If she had said that gay people were diseased and immoral, and that she would stay the hell away from them, she would have received an "F."Prove it.

If she had said that gay people were diseased and immoral, and that she would stay the hell away from them, she would have received an "F." She was forced to turn her back on her religious upbringing to complete that assignment -- such a choice should not be necessary in school.
So should Rastafarian kids be allowed to smoke pot in their lunchbreak?

My argument is that the kid is too young to be presented with something like this, hell it's just not right. I mean, her mind is too young for a topic such as this, most kids that age are thinking about the person they have a crush on, not wether or not they may or may not be gay.

And it's not being wrong to gain empathy for a person but the assignment is simply ludicrous. --Imagine how life would be living in a minority of heteros in a community of homos? I'll tell you what, in fifty years there would be more heteros than homos-- but that's not the point, what is is that it is by far the silliest assignment I have ever heard of. And what is there to gain empathy for? Society puts too much emphasis on gays to begin with, turning the entire discussion into an almost taboo subject making anyone who thinks it isn't right (but they arent fanatically religious) be labeled a homophobe. I say just let them be. They don't want to have sex with other people. How is that supposed to have any effect at all on anyone else?

And for your other question I'm 16.


I agree with what your saying, it's just my oppinion that 13 is too early an age to fully introduce the topic. Funny enough I consider 14 a more appropriate age.

We had sex ed when I was in 4th grade ... imagining what it would be like as a minority is no more mind blowing then that

Add to the fact that I had been beat my first time for being bisexual at age 15 ... this is deffinatly not "too young" to teach tollarance hopefully more students wont have to get beat like me before I got big and scary

If she had said that gay people were diseased and immoral, and that she would stay the hell away from them, she would have received an "F." She was forced to turn her back on her religious upbringing to complete that assignment -- such a choice should not be necessary in school.

Prove it ... if that school had done that it would be wrong of them to do and they are in the wrong ....

But of course all this is a BS supposition rather then being reality

My argument is that the kid is too young to be presented with something like this, hell it's just not right. I mean, her mind is too young for a topic such as this, most kids that age are thinking about the person they have a crush on, not wether or not they may or may not be gay.

Let's think that one through, shall we?

What if the person they have a crush on just happens to be another girl? Hmm...


And it's not being wrong to gain empathy for a person but the assignment is simply ludicrous. --Imagine how life would be living in a minority of heteros in a community of homos? I'll tell you what, in fifty years there would be more heteros than homos-- but that's not the point, what is is that it is by far the silliest assignment I have ever heard of. And what is there to gain empathy for?

Maybe if people like you would actually do their homework, you'd be able to grasp why empathy is important. Spend more time actually doing your assignments, and less time bitching about how awful it is to have to learn things, and you might end up surprising yourself.


Society puts too much emphasis on gays to begin with, turning the entire discussion into an almost taboo subject making anyone who thinks it isn't right (but they arent fanatically religious) be labeled a homophobe.

Wait, homophobes are the ones protesting that their children even have to acknowledge the existence of gays, and you claim that it's the non-homophobes who try to make homosexuality a taboo subject?


I say just let them be. They don't want to have sex with other people. How is that supposed to have any effect at all on anyone else?

Homophobes are free to be homophobes. Nobody at this girl's school proposed that she fail for being a homophobe. She failed because she didn't do her homework, and kids who don't do the work don't get credit. If she'd turned in the assignment, completed as per the requirements, and she happened to express her homophobic views in her response, then that would be another story. But she didn't. She just didn't do her work and then decided to cry about it when she received an F.


I agree with what your saying, it's just my oppinion that 13 is too early an age to fully introduce the topic. Funny enough I consider 14 a more appropriate age.
Most girls have at least begun puberty by age 13. To suggest that kids shouldn't get information about sexuality until well after they will have started experiencing it is goofy. That's like saying that kids shouldn't be taught to drive until they're 18, but they should be given cars for their 16th birthdays.

If she had said that gay people were diseased and immoral, and that she would stay the hell away from them, she would have received an "F."
And if she had actually had the strength of her convictions, and had actually done the assignment as you describe, then I would defend her if she had received an "F" for it. But she didn't. She took the lazy, cowardly way out. And she deserves every inch of her "F".

Let's think that one through, shall we?

What if the person they have a crush on just happens to be another girl? Hmm...


Maybe if people like you would actually do their homework, you'd be able to grasp why empathy is important. Spend more time actually doing your assignments, and less time bitching about how awful it is to have to learn things, and you might end up surprising yourself.


Wait, homophobes are the ones protesting that their children even have to acknowledge the existence of gays, and you claim that it's the non-homophobes who try to make homosexuality a taboo subject?


Homophobes are free to be homophobes. Nobody at this girl's school proposed that she fail for being a homophobe. She failed because she didn't do her homework, and kids who don't do the work don't get credit. If she'd turned in the assignment, completed as per the requirements, and she happened to express her homophobic views in her response, then that would be another story. But she didn't. She just didn't do her work and then decided to cry about it when she received an F.


Most girls have at least begun puberty by age 13. To suggest that kids shouldn't get information about sexuality until well after they will have started experiencing it is goofy. That's like saying that kids shouldn't be taught to drive until they're 18, but they should be given cars for their 16th birthdays.

Agreed with everything, and with to add:

Girls mature faster than boys - some often hit puberty at age 11.

Good. She deserved to be failed.

Bigotry is not a legitimate excuse.

And if she had actually had the strength of her convictions, and had actually done the assignment as you describe, then I would defend her if she had received an "F" for it. But she didn't. She took the lazy, cowardly way out. And she deserves every inch of her "F".Actually, she couldn't have gotten an "F", the pass out "E"s in Australia. Plus, they use the metric system, I think, so no inches. Bad Bottle. No buscuit :p

Agreed with everything, and with to add:

Girls mature faster than boys - some often hit puberty at age 11.
Women in my family get our first periods by age 12 at the latest. Not sure why, but it's been that way since at least my great-grandmother. My mother got hers at age 9. My grandmother got hers at age 10 or 11, and thought she was dying of polio because nobody had taughter her about periods.

But hey, if we don't TELL kids about sex, then they can't possibly grow up! No kid has ever had a crush before age 13! No kid has ever hit puberty before age 13! No kid has ever gotten knocked up before age 13! No kid has ever figured out they were gay before age 13! Wooohoo!!

Actually, she couldn't have gotten an "F", the pass out "E"s in Australia. Plus, they use the metric system, I think, so no inches. Bad Bottle. No buscuit :p
An "E"? What witchery is this?

And, while I'm at it, why don't you drive on the right damn side of the road, you freaks?!

An "E"? What witchery is this?

And, while I'm at it, why don't you drive on the right damn side of the road, you freaks?!

Logical witchery ...

An "E"? What witchery is this?

And, while I'm at it, why don't you drive on the right damn side of the road, you freaks?!Well, A-B-C-D-E, instead of A-B-C-D-F... Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPA_in_Australia)

Gotta put the "fun" back in "arguing with fundamentalists"! :D

Well, I don't have a problem with the assignment, the secrecy is a problem. I don't know I am opposed to the consept of Health and Phys. Ed anyway.

Logical witchery ...
We in America have sensibly excluded the letter "e" from our grading system for no reason that any of us really understand. Just because our soda is measured in liters doesn't mean you can infect all areas of our lives with your crazy-talk.

Well, A-B-C-D-E...Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPA_in_Australia)
Sheer lunacy. Whoever heard of using a logical progression of letters to represent the relative merits of different pieces of work?!

Women in my family get our first periods by age 12 at the latest. Not sure why, but it's been that way since at least my great-grandmother. My mother got hers at age 9. My grandmother got hers at age 10 or 11, and thought she was dying of polio because nobody had taughter her about periods.

But hey, if we don't TELL kids about sex, then they can't possibly grow up! No kid has ever had a crush before age 13! No kid has ever hit puberty before age 13! No kid has ever gotten knocked up before age 13! No kid has ever figured out they were gay before age 13! Wooohoo!!

I was 13 when I got mine. Of course, we'd had the special class in school that the girls went off to to have these things explained, while the boys sat doing who knows what.

Sheer lunacy. Whoever heard of using a logical progression of letters to represent the relative merits of different pieces of work?!I totally agree. A logical progression of numbers is much cleverer.

So should Rastafarian kids be allowed to smoke pot in their lunchbreak?

Smoking pot is illegal. Pointing out that homosexuality is a disease is not illegal.

I was 13 when I got mine. Of course, we'd had the special class in school that the girls went off to to have these things explained, while the boys sat doing who knows what.I had "What's happening to me" as my guide. From the same people that made "Where did I come from".

Upon further examination, I have learnt that Americans exclude the letter "E" from our grading system because an "F" can be easily converted into an "E" by simply adding a line, so the A-F system doesn't work if kids can just bump their "E" to an "F" with a single pen-stroke. Clearly, you nutty Australians trust your children far too much.

Upon further examination, I have learnt that Americans exclude the letter "E" from our grading system because an "F" can be easily converted into an "E" by simply adding a line, so the A-F system doesn't work if kids can just bump their "E" to an "F" with a single pen-stroke. Clearly, you nutty Australians trust your children far too much.

But.. If it followed the logical progression of letters, then E would be the lowest possible grade, as F is now.

Therefore, there would be no "F" to convert to an "E" to begin with.

Smoking pot is illegal. Pointing out that homosexuality is a disease is not illegal.

And that is not what she is being docked for either so whats the problem?

I was 13 when I got mine. Of course, we'd had the special class in school that the girls went off to to have these things explained, while the boys sat doing who knows what.
In my school, the boys got to learn about why they were having wet-dreams and why they sometimes got boners for no obvious reason. I was lucky to have almost exclusively male friends, who filled me in on what the boys were learning in exchange for my efforts as a covert op in the world of The Womenz. We had sex ed while still in grade school, so my guy friends were greatly impressed with how gross periods are.

"Wow, you're gonna bleed and bleed and it won't even kill you?"
"Will there be pus coming out too?"
"I wonder if you can make it shoot out and splatter all over? Can girls do that?"

I think this is the benefit to teaching sex ed when kids are still young enough to think that gross = really cool. :D

But.. If it followed the logical progression of letters, then E would be the lowest possible grade, as F is now.

Therefore, there would be no "F" to convert to an "E" to begin with.

So you're suggesting we use a grading system that doesn't involve the letter "F"?

Does. Not. Compute.

I had "What's happening to me" as my guide. From the same people that made "Where did I come from".
I loved "Where Did I Come From"! Such a wonderful book.

In my school, the boys got to learn about why they were having wet-dreams and why they sometimes got boners for no obvious reason. I was lucky to have almost exclusively male friends, who filled me in on what the boys were learning in exchange for my efforts as a covert op in the world of The Womenz. We had sex ed while still in grade school, so my guy friends were greatly impressed with how gross periods are.

"Wow, you're gonna bleed and bleed and it won't even kill you?"
"Will there be pus coming out too?"
"I wonder if you can make it shoot out and splatter all over? Can girls do that?"

I think this is the benefit to teaching sex ed when kids are still young enough to think that gross = really cool. :D

lol ... none of the Creatures said anything like that that I recall, but then again, I never paid a great deal of attention to them then. :p Or now, unless I have heavy packages to go out to the car. As long as you didn't give away any of the *looks around furtively* Secrets, I guess that's okay.

My argument is that the kid is too young to be presented with something like this, hell it's just not right. I mean, her mind is too young for a topic such as this, most kids that age are thinking about the person they have a crush on, not wether or not they may or may not be gay.

That is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. If the kid is old enough to "think about the person they have a crush on," then they are already thinking about their sexuality. They are already beginning to deal with it, whatever it may be.

A 13-year old has most likely begun puberty. He/she is already being forced to deal with issues of sexuality - not by the school - but by their own biology.

And it's not being wrong to gain empathy for a person but the assignment is simply ludicrous. --Imagine how life would be living in a minority of heteros in a community of homos? I'll tell you what, in fifty years there would be more heteros than homos-- but that's not the point, what is is that it is by far the silliest assignment I have ever heard of. And what is there to gain empathy for?

Being in the minority. Being seen as "different" or possibly even "wrong" for something you cannot control.

Society puts too much emphasis on gays to begin with, turning the entire discussion into an almost taboo subject making anyone who thinks it isn't right (but they arent fanatically religious) be labeled a homophobe. I say just let them be. They don't want to have sex with other people. How is that supposed to have any effect at all on anyone else?

Correction, this is even sillier. Sexuality is not being made taboo by society. In fact, it is finally coming out of the "taboo" category and being discussed openly.

If she had said that gay people were diseased and immoral, and that she would stay the hell away from them, she would have received an "F."

What evidence do you have of this? The information we have here doesn't suggest this at all. The assignment was to discuss what you would feel being in a minority group of heterosexuals in a society which was majority homosexual. If you think you would feel the need to stay away from the "diseased, immoral" majority in such a society, that is a perfectly valid answer to the question.

Anyway, on the original topic:

I don't know. I'm very certainly pro-gay-rights, being gay myself.. But I don't think I'd want this kind of assignment being given in junior high. It's understandable talking about homosexuality in a biological context, and punishing discrimination practiced in school, but I do think people should be free to think it's wrong. If I had kids, for instance, I wouldn't want them being taught to take sides in a controversial argument in school if I thought it was wrong.

I can understand teaching kids about diversity and kindness to minorities, but at this time it's probably best if it's done in a more generic manner. Treating all people equally and judging them on the basis of their character, without getting more specific than that.

As for the student being failed.. If she asked for an alternative assignment, she certainly should've been given one. If someone asked me to write a report on duck hunting, I'd sure as hell ask for something else to write about. On the other hand, if she just flat out refused to do her work, a failing grade is understandable.

Anyway, I just see school as a place to get an education. It shouldn't be a place for a religion to push its ideas on the origin of the universe. It shouldn't be a place where kids are forced to think a certain way. Likewise, if a controversial topic is presented, it should be presented in a neutral manner, and at a level appropriate for the grade it's introduced in.

So you're suggesting we use a grading system that doesn't involve the letter "F"?

Does. Not. Compute.

How about we just use a precentage system? Nice and simple.

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle. Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists? What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?

I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle. Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists? What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?

I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:

No, I don't think you do.

How about we just use a precentage system? Nice and simple.

precentage system can work in science or math, when it is more acurrate.
you can't really give exact grade for assignments, unless you had though grading system which screw their imagination.

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle. Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists? What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?

I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:

How is this possibly against her religion?

Simple as this she failed to do a compleatly logical and acceptable assingment
She got an F

Simple as that

precentage system can work in science or math, when it is more acurrate.
you can't really give exact grade for assignments, unless you had though grading system which screw their imagination.

Then for more subjective assignments it can be rounded off.

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle. Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists? What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?

I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:How are they forcing gay issues on kids? Aren't the kids being asked to describe what it would be like to be a minority HETEROSEXUAL!!!!! in a majority homosexual population?

"Lazy git with no desire to give up being bigoted fails"

Shocker.

Women in my family get our first periods by age 12 at the latest. Not sure why, but it's been that way since at least my great-grandmother. My mother got hers at age 9. My grandmother got hers at age 10 or 11, and thought she was dying of polio because nobody had taughter her about periods.

But hey, if we don't TELL kids about sex, then they can't possibly grow up! No kid has ever had a crush before age 13! No kid has ever hit puberty before age 13! No kid has ever gotten knocked up before age 13! No kid has ever figured out they were gay before age 13! Wooohoo!!

I was 9 when I got mine, and nobody - and I mean NOBODY - had told me about it before. Sex ed in school started when I was 10, and my mom was too embarassed to talk to her daughter about it... :rolleyes:

She got an F I thought we covered that particular part of the debate already... :mad:

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle. Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists? What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up? learn about is only make them more tolerant. it isn't like they asked to change their religion

I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:
so they just will look aside, and hope the problem "disappear"

I don't know. I'm very certainly pro-gay-rights, being gay myself.. But I don't think I'd want this kind of assignment being given in junior high. It's understandable talking about homosexuality in a biological context, and punishing discrimination practiced in school, but I do think people should be free to think it's wrong. If I had kids, for instance, I wouldn't want them being taught to take sides in a controversial argument in school if I thought it was wrong.

This assignment did not require the kids to "take a side." It did not require the kids to come down in favor of homosexuality or equal rights for gays. It did nothing more than expect kids to acknowledge that homosexuals exist, and to attempt to imagine how they would feel if their sexual orienation were in the minority.


I can understand teaching kids about diversity and kindness to minorities, but at this time it's probably best if it's done in a more generic manner. Treating all people equally and judging them on the basis of their character, without getting more specific than that.

Why water it down? Do you really think 13 year olds are so stupid, or so fragile, that they can't talk about this stuff honestly?

Am I the only person here who has actually BEEN 13 years old?


Anyway, I just see school as a place to get an education. It shouldn't be a place for a religion to push its ideas on the origin of the universe. It shouldn't be a place where kids are forced to think a certain way. Likewise, if a controversial topic is presented, it should be presented in a neutral manner, and at a level appropriate for the grade it's introduced in.
As far as I can tell, the topic was presented in a neutral way. It's perfectly neutral to say, "Homosexuals exist. Homosexuality exists. There are sexual orientations which are more common than others. In our society, homosexual orientation is less common than heterosexual orientation." None of these are biased statements. None of them require that a child be indoctrinated into any particular system of values. They are statements of fact.

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle. Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists? What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?

I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:

My school made me do RE through GCSE even though I'm an athiest. I got to learn about the religions and I now have a better understanding of other peoples beliefs. I think maybe someone should have forced you to learn about something outside your comfort zone at some point, then maybe you would be able to empathise with others better.

Then for more subjective assignments it can be rounded off.
is there something evil in the letters who make us changed them to numbers?
personnaly- my schools had numerical grades, but I can't see the difference.

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle. Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists? What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?

I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:

When did gay become a religion?

Should white kids learn about the problems black kids are facing in most countries? Should healthy kids leanr about the problems of handicapped kids? Should rich kids learn about the problems of poor kids?

OF COURSE THEY SHOULD!!!

normly i'm al for nevre faleing studints becuz selfessteam is most important but this gurl is a fachists eval kristchan.

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle.

Me either. In fact, I think that assigning sexual activities in a classroom would be absolutely out of the question. I don't htink kids should be forced to learn any sexual activities.

Now, learning *about* sexual activities is very important. The sexual choices a person makes will be affected by what they do and do not know, so it is very important to understand the implications of certain actions.

If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?

It is "against her religion" to imagine being a heterosexual minority in a majority homosexual society? No, it isn't - and she isn't claiming that it is. She is claiming that homosexuality is against her religion. Well, who cares? The fact that she disagrees with homosexuality would certainly affect the point-of-view she brought into the assignment, but the assignment wasn't, "Agree with homosexuality," or "Be homosexual." She wasn't even being asked to imagine being homosexual.

I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:

How does the assignment "force gay issues on straight students"?

My school made me do RE through GCSE even though I'm an athiest. I got to learn about the religions and I now have a better understanding of other peoples beliefs. I think maybe someone should have forced you to learn about something outside your comfort zone at some point, then maybe you would be able to empathise with others better.My parents cycled me through protestant, catholic, and jewish religion classes. I thought it was a great idea.

normly i'm al for nevre faleing studints becuz selfessteam is most important but this gurl is a fachists eval kristchan.

Who cares about her religion? someone that compleatly fails doing an assingment should get a failing grade to reflect that

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle.

Allow me to let you in on a little secret:

The gay "lifestyle" is exactly the same as the straight "lifestyle." Gay people go to the market, brush their teeth, hold down jobs, rear their kids, get blisters from ill-fitting shoes, take out the garbage, and pretty much all the same shit that straight people deal with in day-to-day life.

Gay "activities" are just like straight "activities," only it's gay people doing them. Gay people hold hands, kiss, and have sex, just like straight people hold hands, kiss, and have sex. So what? Gay people have oral sex; so do straight people. Gay people have anal sex; so do straight people. Gay people have penetrative vaginal sex; so do straight people. So what?


Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists?

Yes, Muslim students in public schools should be taught about the existence of Christianity. So should atheists. And vice versas in all directions.


What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?

If it's against your religion to learn things, don't go to public school. If it's against your religion to know that other religions exist, don't go to public school. If it's against your religion to know that gays exist, don't go to public school. In fact, it's probably best you not go out in public at all, because your "religious freedom" is going to be "infringed" upon a whole lot. :D


I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:
And schools are wrong for forcing white students to learn about racism perpetrated against blacks, right? Because why would WHITE people need to know about BLACK problems? It's not like white people and black people live in the same world or anything...

My parents cycled me through protestant, catholic, and jewish religion classes. I thought it was a great idea.

I just did the RE GCSE from age 11 to 16, you spend a term on christianity, a term on islam and so forth. Over the 5 years you cover all the worlds major religions.

When did gay become a religion?

Well, anti-gay appears to be the strongest religious conviction some people have, so it's not surprising that they assume the same must be true of everybody else.

This assignment did not require the kids to "take a side." It did not require the kids to come down in favor of homosexuality or equal rights for gays. It did nothing more than expect kids to acknowledge that homosexuals exist, and to attempt to imagine how they would feel if their sexual orienation were in the minority.


Why water it down? Do you really think 13 year olds are so stupid, or so fragile, that they can't talk about this stuff honestly?

Am I the only person here who has actually BEEN 13 years old?


As far as I can tell, the topic was presented in a neutral way. It's perfectly neutral to say, "Homosexuals exist. Homosexuality exists. There are sexual orientations which are more common than others. In our society, homosexual orientation is less common than heterosexual orientation." None of these are biased statements. None of them require that a child be indoctrinated into any particular system of values. They are statements of fact.

Hmm.. I do see what you're saying. Well, I'm trying to look at this from an American perspective. I was taught about homosexuality when I was twelve or thirteen, and it was fine.. Though I was a little worried I was gay (then I found out I was and stopped worrying).

Ok, I'm trying to step softly here because I like to see things from all perspectives. I just think she was within her rights to refuse that particular assignment, though as I said, she should've requested an alternative. If that subject bothered her, why force her to write it? When I was in school, we were allowed to opt out of sex-ed, dissections, and if a topic troubled us on a personal level, we were allowed to request a different one.

I'm not saying that it's right that she's bothered by homosexuality, I'm just saying that the right to morally object doesn't just extend to politically correct viewpoints. Whether or not she believed she was being forced to take a side isn't neccessarily important; she may've just wanted to avoid the topic altogether.

We have to understand that people are offended by different things. While it may seem silly to us that someone can be offended by another person's sexual orientation, it's not silly to them.

Well, anti-gay appears to be the strongest religious conviction some people have, so it's not surprising that they assume the same must be true of everybody else.

I wonder what the Eucharist is like in the Gay Religion. "Hot body of Christ"?

Because why would WHITE people need to know about BLACK problems? It's not like white people and black people live in the same world or anything...[/QUOTE]

seem that way sometimes :(

I don't feel that kids should be forced to learn gay activities and lifestyle. Should Muslims be forced to learn Christianity and vice versa? How about Atheists? What ever happened to freedom of Religion? If it is strongly against her beliefs and religion, then why wasn't an alternative assignment been made up?


Gay is a religion?

The classroom is not a democracy. It's a dictatorship. You don't do the assignment, you flunk.


I feel the school is completely wrong by forcing gay issues on straight students. I just don't get it. :headbang:

Maybe it will teach some of you to not go out and "fagbash"

I'm not saying that it's right that she's bothered by homosexuality, I'm just saying that the right to morally object doesn't just extend to politically correct viewpoints. Whether or not she believed she was being forced to take a side isn't neccessarily important; she may've just wanted to avoid the topic altogether.

We have to understand that people are offended by different things. While it may seem silly to us that someone can be offended by another person's sexual orientation, it's not silly to them.

She's got every right to object to homosexuality. All the assignment asked for was to describe how she would feel if her sexual orientation isolated her.
It was her refusal to even consider the topic of homosexuality that got her the bad mark. And frankly, I think she deserved it. She didn't get it for objecting to homosexuality, but for refusing to think.

She's got every right to object to homosexuality. All the assignment asked for was to describe how she would feel if her sexual orientation isolated her.
It was her refusal to even consider the topic of homosexuality that got her the bad mark. And frankly, I think she deserved it. She didn't get it for objecting to homosexuality, but for refusing to think.

Well, the news report said she didn't believe in homosexuality, so she probably considered her sexual orientation a non-issue.

In any case, in a society where this topic can greatly offend the sensibilities of many people, one should be free to not think about it if they so choose. I mean, it's not like she stood up in front of the class and said that they're all going to hell for writing this report, she just refused to write about something that upset her.

In any case, maybe it just bothers me that it was an assignment about tolerance in Health and Physical Education. It seems very.. out of place. But we can agree to disagree.

If students were asked to consider how they would feel if they were American Blacks in the South before the Civil Rights Movement, and one objected on the basis that she didn't want to think about being one of those "damn niggers," how many of you would be defending her?

If students were asked to consider how they would feel if they were American Blacks in the South before the Civil Rights Movement, and one objected on the basis that she didn't want to think about being one of those "damn niggers," how many of you would be defending her?
But that's totally different because...um...the faggots...and the butt sex...and teh ickies...um...mumbles...

If students were asked to consider how they would feel if they were American Blacks in the South before the Civil Rights Movement, and one objected on the basis that she didn't want to think about being one of those "damn niggers," how many of you would be defending her?

If this were the 1930's, a lot.

We have to keep in mind that societal attitudes about racism and those about sexual orientation are very different.

If students were asked to consider how they would feel if they were American Blacks in the South before the Civil Rights Movement, and one objected on the basis that she didn't want to think about being one of those "damn niggers," how many of you would be defending her?

Well, every one of the people defending her now would have defended her then. Maybe half of those would defend her now... um... then.

She's got every right to object to homosexuality. All the assignment asked for was to describe how she would feel if her sexual orientation isolated her.
It was her refusal to even consider the topic of homosexuality that got her the bad mark. And frankly, I think she deserved it. She didn't get it for objecting to homosexuality, but for refusing to think.

i agree. she passed up a great opportunity to explain why she would spend all her time on the moon trying to convert these gay people to her brand of christianity. she could have gone on and on about just what aspects of gayness would be considered a sin by her little cult.

its very frustrating as a parent when your child gets into easily avoided trouble by not telling you what is going on. this stupid little twit could have gone to mama and complained about the assignment and mama would have gotten her out of it. she chose a different course of action. mama should stay the hell out of it and let her little girl take the failing grade she earned.

If students were asked to consider how they would feel if they were American Blacks in the South before the Civil Rights Movement, and one objected on the basis that she didn't want to think about being one of those "damn niggers," how many of you would be defending her?

*kicks the argument*

Excellent Strawman! Rather Good construction!

If students were asked to consider how they would feel if they were American Blacks in the South before the Civil Rights Movement, and one objected on the basis that she didn't want to think about being one of those "damn niggers," how many of you would be defending her?Actually, they probably would on grounds that that has nothing to do with Australia. ;)

If this were the 1930's, a lot.

We have to keep in mind that societal attitudes about racism and those about sexual orientation are very different.

So?

If anything, that should be even more of a reason for public schools to discourage anti-gay bigotry.

Well, the news report said she didn't believe in homosexuality, so she probably considered her sexual orientation a non-issue.

In any case, in a society where this topic can greatly offend the sensibilities of many people, one should be free to not think about it if they so choose. I mean, it's not like she stood up in front of the class and said that they're all going to hell for writing this report, she just refused to write about something that upset her.

In any case, maybe it just bothers me that it was an assignment about tolerance in Health and Physical Education. It seems very.. out of place. But we can agree to disagree.

As I said before, Maths and Latin used to greatly upset me when still in school. But I had the same choice as that girl : Try and get acceptable grades, or don't even try and fail. It's pretty simple, really.
The fact that the topic upsets you is no excuse for getting good grades despite not putting in any effort. It's unfair to those who did put in the effort to try and imangine what their lifes would be like if roles were reversed.

If this were the 1930's, a lot.

We have to keep in mind that societal attitudes about racism and those about sexual orientation are very different.
I see. So we need to make sure that we all opperate on the time table that is most comfortable for the racists or the homophobes. Gays can just wait a few more years to be treated with dignity, while we wait for the bigots to chill the fuck out. They should just (you'll pardon the expression) take one for the team, right?

Forgive me, but this is all so silly to me. Hearing people try to present "reasonable" arguments in favor of coddling homophobia is like hearing grown adults argue in favor of teaching kids about cooties in health class.

*kicks the argument*

Excellent Strawman! Rather Good construction!

How is it a straw man?

Is bigotry against gays somehow better than bigotry against Blacks?

So?

If anything, that should be even more of a reason for public schools to discourage anti-gay bigotry.

Yes, I agree. But the girl wasn't standing in the hallway calling people faggots, or beating up a gay student. Her writing about a different assignment does not degrade me, or anyone, with the possible exception of herself.

*kicks the argument*

Excellent Strawman! Rather Good construction!

Same difference. I don't see how it is a strawman.

I see. So we need to make sure that we all opperate on the time table that is most comfortable for the racists or the homophobes. Gays can just wait a few more years to be treated with dignity, while we wait for the bigots to chill the fuck out. They should just (you'll pardon the expression) take one for the team, right?

Forgive me, but this is all so silly to me. Hearing people try to present "reasonable" arguments in favor of coddling homophobia is like hearing grown adults argue in favor of teaching kids about cooties in health class.

She was not mistreating anyone. I would not be mistreating anyone if I refused to write an assignment on going to Hell for my sins because I do not believe in Hell.

Yes, I agree. But the girl wasn't standing in the hallway calling people faggots, or beating up a gay student. Her writing about a different assignment does not degrade me, or anyone, with the possible exception of herself.

Again, bigotry is not a legitimate excuse.

Any more than those bigoted against Blacks should be entitled to do different assignments whenever the Civil Rights Movement is treated in a positive light.

She was not mistreating anyone. I would not be mistreating anyone if I refused to write an assignment on going to Hell for my sins because I do not believe in Hell.

So you argue that schools shouldn't force children to think for themselves?

I think Bottle and Soheran missed Mirkai's point...

She was not mistreating anyone. I would not be mistreating anyone if I refused to write an assignment on going to Hell for my sins because I do not believe in Hell.

Discouraging bigotry is not akin to indoctrinating students into a religion.

So you argue that schools shouldn't force children to think for themselves?

She did think for herself. She thought "I don't believe in homosexuality, it bothers me, and I don't want to write about it."

If this were the 1930's, a lot.

We have to keep in mind that societal attitudes about racism and those about sexual orientation are very different.

That does NOT make her right.

That girl SHOULD fail the assignment. "Fagbashing" needs to stop.

Show her that society is no Tyranny of anyone. Everyone has rights.

Her failing will reveal this to her, and she will either get over it or... something.

it's time society stops with this crap about personal opinion/religion in schools.

And I'm sure someone will object to my rant, so i'm ready.

She did think for herself. She thought "I don't believe in homosexuality, it bothers me, and I don't want to write about it."

You can't not believe in homosexuality... it exists... she needs to realize that. The truth is out there.

She did think for herself. She thought "I don't believe in homosexuality, it bothers me, and I don't want to write about it."

No she didn't, she responed to it in the way she'd been taught by ther parents and refused to write a paper that could force her to evaluate the views she held.

The point is she wasn't asked to support homosexuality. She could well have written "If I was alone in a colony of homosexuals, I would have set fire to all their houses". The point is that even if you accept that homosexuality is wrong (which I don't) you can't deny that it exists. And if it exists, and you refuse to allow your children to discuss it, be informed about it, or heaven forbid think about it you are a really bad parent, Christian or not

Discouraging bigotry is not akin to indoctrinating students into a religion.

It was an example..

I don't know how to phrase this differently. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to think about homosexuality, well, she's clearly already thought about it, and it upsets her, and she does not want to write about it. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to be tolerant to homosexuals, that is rather out of place for a Health class; likewise, tolerance cannot be "taught" in such a manner.

Either way, she was within her rights to refuse writing about something she did not agree with. Heck, my gym class allowed me to do written exams instead of the physical exercises because I was way too embarassed about my bodyweight to play sports.. Does that mean my school was encouraging obesity?

Ok, I'm trying to step softly here because I like to see things from all perspectives. I just think she was within her rights to refuse that particular assignment, though as I said, she should've requested an alternative.

Of course she can refuse to do an assignment. She can even ask to be allowed to do something else (although the teacher can certainly refuse such a request). However, she also needs to realize that her actions have consequences. If she refuses to do an assignment, she cannot expect to get a good grade on it. Without a paper to turn in, she will receive the minimum grade.

If that subject bothered her, why force her to write it? When I was in school, we were allowed to opt out of sex-ed, dissections, and if a topic troubled us on a personal level, we were allowed to request a different one.

Here's the thing, I don't think students should be able to "opt out" of sex-ed, dissections, or a subject that bothers them. Sex ed is absolutely necessary in order to make good sexual choices. Dissections are an integral part of physiology. And facing subjects that bother you are (a) a major part of learning and (b) a major part of life in general. Students may refuse to do any of these things, but I don't they should get a free pass to do so. They should take the consequences of their actions - which may very well be a lowered grade.

I'm not saying that it's right that she's bothered by homosexuality, I'm just saying that the right to morally object doesn't just extend to politically correct viewpoints. Whether or not she believed she was being forced to take a side isn't neccessarily important; she may've just wanted to avoid the topic altogether.

Too bad. It was a topic covered in her class. If she can't handle dealing with topics she wishes to avoid in a classroom, then she probably should be schooled elsewhere - somewhere the students write the curriculum rather than vice versa.

Even if she doesn't think gays exist, she could just say "I couldn't possibly live in a colony of homosexuals because there is no such thing as a homosexual".

That does NOT make her right.

That girl SHOULD fail the assignment. "Fagbashing" needs to stop.

Show her that society is no Tyranny of anyone. Everyone has rights.

Her failing will reveal this to her, and she will either get over it or... something.

it's time society stops with this crap about personal opinion/religion in schools.

And I'm sure someone will object to my rant, so i'm ready.

For the third time, she was not bashing anyone. She declined an assignment that made her uncomfortable.

Everyone has rights? Does she not have the right to believe what she wants? She wasn't harming someone by not doing that assignment. This isn't a case of verbal harassment or physical assault, it's consciencious objection.

It was an example..

I don't know how to phrase this differently. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to think about homosexuality, well, she's clearly already thought about it, and it upsets her, and she does not want to write about it. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to be tolerant to homosexuals, that is rather out of place for a Health class; likewise, tolerance cannot be "taught" in such a manner.

Either way, she was within her rights to refuse writing about something she did not agree with. Heck, my gym class allowed me to do written exams instead of the physical exercises because I was way too embarassed about my bodyweight to play sports.. Does that mean my school was encouraging obesity?

Yes. Your school was encouraging that. I didn't do well in gym either, but I had to do some physical activity. At one point, I walked around town and took pictures that I would later develop in photography class. You learn life skills in school. How to be healthy in gym class. How to get along with others unlike yourself in other classes.

She was not mistreating anyone. I would not be mistreating anyone if I refused to write an assignment on going to Hell for my sins because I do not believe in Hell.
It doesn't "hurt" me if another kid in my class decides to write an essay about kittens instead of the assigned essay about Thomas Jefferson. It doesn't oppress me if some kid in my class refuses to do his math homework because Jesus hates fractals.

So? Does that mean that every kid should be allowed to demand a special assignment whenever they feel that they don't like the subject? Should they all be able to demand that teacher wrap reality in bubblewrap so they never have to come into contact with facts they don't like?

And, for the record, I once wrote a lengthy report about various cultures' conceptions of Hell, which included descriptions of how I would be punished in the afterlife according to several different faiths. Since I don't believe in Hell, this exercise didn't bother me in the least. :D

It was an example..

I don't know how to phrase this differently. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to think about homosexuality, well, she's clearly already thought about it, and it upsets her, and she does not want to write about it. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to be tolerant to homosexuals, that is rather out of place for a Health class; likewise, tolerance cannot be "taught" in such a manner.

Either way, she was within her rights to refuse writing about something she did not agree with. Heck, my gym class allowed me to do written exams instead of the physical exercises because I was way too embarassed about my bodyweight to play sports.. Does that mean my school was encouraging obesity?

Of course she was within her rights. And the teacher was within her rights - indeed doing her job properly - by giving the girl a failing grade for refusing to complete an assignment.

And no, i don't agree with your school letting you out of physical exercises because you were embarrassed. If a school is going to teach phys ed and include said exercises (which they should), they have no business making exceptions for people who don't want to do them. If you had a legitimate health issue that kept you from doing certain exercises (ie. weak knees keeping you from running up stairs, or something like that), then they would need to give you an alternate physical activity instead. However, "I'm afraid people might look at me," is not a legitimate excuse for not completing an assignment, and your school did you a great disservice by coddling you in this way.

For the third time, she was not bashing anyone. She declined an assignment that made her uncomfortable.

Everyone has rights? Does she not have the right to believe what she wants? She wasn't harming someone by not doing that assignment. This isn't a case of verbal harassment or physical assault, it's consciencious objection.

But she should not get an A.

The grading period is over. She failed to meet the requirements (whether that means the above assignment or a viable substitution) and thus deserves what she gets.

I believe the Bible has a saying: "Reap what you sow."

For the third time, she was not bashing anyone. She declined an assignment that made her uncomfortable.

She didn't "decline." She didn't do the work, and then when her parents found out she was failing she decided to tell them that she refused to do her homework on "moral grounds."


Everyone has rights? Does she not have the right to believe what she wants?

Sure she does, and that assignment would not have stopped her from believing what she wanted. Indeed, it was specifically asking her to write down what she believed.


She wasn't harming someone by not doing that assignment.

And she wasn't harmed by receiving a zero. See, how school works is that you turn in work in exchange for marks. You don't automatically get marks for free. The marks don't belong to you until you turn in the work. If you don't turn in the work, you don't get the marks. That's not "harming" you. It's not taking something from you, because the marks weren't yours unless you turned in the work.

It's like how if you refuse to pay for an apple, the store isn't harming you by refusing to let you have the apple for free. The apple doesn't belong to you. If you want to try to barter for a different price, the store is also not harming you if they tell you that you have to pay the same price as everybody else.


This isn't a case of verbal harassment or physical assault, it's consciencious objection.
It's a 13 year old not doing her homework. Let's not blow it out of proportion here.

Either way, she was within her rights to refuse writing about something she did not agree with. Heck, my gym class allowed me to do written exams instead of the physical exercises because I was way too embarassed about my bodyweight to play sports.. Does that mean my school was encouraging obesity?

You've got to be kidding! :eek:
That's completely beside the point of gym class, isn't it? No, there was no way my school would have let me out of that, except if I had a physical disability of some kind that wouldn't allow me to do exercise. And that was the way it should be, I think, despite the fact that I hated gym class.

And no, i don't agree with your school letting you out of physical exercises because you were embarrassed. If a school is going to teach phys ed and include said exercises (which they should), they have no business making exceptions for people who don't want to do them. If you had a legitimate health issue that kept you from doing certain exercises (ie. weak knees keeping you from running up stairs, or something like that), then they would need to give you an alternate physical activity instead. However, "I'm afraid people might look at me," is not a legitimate excuse for not completing an assignment, and your school did you a great disservice by coddling you in this way.
Seconded.

Of course she can refuse to do an assignment. She can even ask to be allowed to do something else (although the teacher can certainly refuse such a request). However, she also needs to realize that her actions have consequences. If she refuses to do an assignment, she cannot expect to get a good grade on it. Without a paper to turn in, she will receive the minimum grade.



Here's the thing, I don't think students should be able to "opt out" of sex-ed, dissections, or a subject that bothers them. Sex ed is absolutely necessary in order to make good sexual choices. Dissections are an integral part of physiology. And facing subjects that bother you are (a) a major part of learning and (b) a major part of life in general. Students may refuse to do any of these things, but I don't they should get a free pass to do so. They should take the consequences of their actions - which may very well be a lowered grade.



Too bad. It was a topic covered in her class. If she can't handle dealing with topics she wishes to avoid in a classroom, then she probably should be schooled elsewhere - somewhere the students write the curriculum rather than vice versa.

Consequences, yes. But the alternative should've been offered to her when she objected, rather than an outright failing mark.

I agree with you in the context of elective classes. If someone chooses to learn about a subject, then they are choosing to learn about all of it. She did not choose to learn about tolerance or homosexuality. In non-elective classes such as those in Junior High and early High School, the option to alternative topics to assignments is important. I'm really for animal rights, for example, and if someone asked me to dissect a chicken, I wouldn't do it. I'd ask for something else to do. If that was not provided, then I'd take my failing grade and complain to the district schoolboard.

And, if I read correctly, her mother chose to send her to a private school. So everybody wins.

For the third time, she was not bashing anyone. She declined an assignment that made her uncomfortable.

....which made her uncomfortable because she has been taught to be a bigot.

Everyone has rights? Does she not have the right to believe what she wants? She wasn't harming someone by not doing that assignment. This isn't a case of verbal harassment or physical assault, it's consciencious objection.

She can believe whatever she wants. And the only person she harmed by not doing that assigment is herself - and she should take the consequences of her actions, which happen to include a failing grade, in stride.

It was an example..

I don't know how to phrase this differently. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to think about homosexuality, well, she's clearly already thought about it, and it upsets her, and she does not want to write about it. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to be tolerant to homosexuals, that is rather out of place for a Health class; likewise, tolerance cannot be "taught" in such a manner.

The object of the assignment was not to make her think about homosexuality. It was to make her think about homosexuality from the perspective a gay person might have.

That is absolutely a good thing, and is the sort of thing that should be encouraged. Just as US History is (at least, should be) taught in a manner that includes the perspectives of oppressed groups, so should sex education include the perspectives of minority sexualities.

Either way, she was within her rights to refuse writing about something she did not agree with.

Again, would you extend the same right to racists? To Neo-Nazis?

Bigotry should not be tolerated.

Heck, my gym class allowed me to do written exams instead of the physical exercises because I was way too embarassed about my bodyweight to play sports.. Does that mean my school was encouraging obesity?

No, it means they were sparing you embarrassment. This girl would not have been spared embarassment (at least, had she not made an issue of it); her bigotry would simply have been accepted as legitimate.

It was an example..

I don't know how to phrase this differently. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to think about homosexuality, well, she's clearly already thought about it, and it upsets her, and she does not want to write about it. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to be tolerant to homosexuals, that is rather out of place for a Health class; likewise, tolerance cannot be "taught" in such a manner.

Either way, she was within her rights to refuse writing about something she did not agree with. Heck, my gym class allowed me to do written exams instead of the physical exercises because I was way too embarassed about my bodyweight to play sports.. Does that mean my school was encouraging obesity?

The way the Nazis treated the Jews upset me but I had to read a book about it and do a report. Had I not I would have gotten a failing grade... should that not have been the case?

What would you have had the teacher do to a student who refused to do an assignment because it had to do with a subject she was uncomfortable thinking about?

It was an example..

I don't know how to phrase this differently. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to think about homosexuality, well, she's clearly already thought about it, and it upsets her, and she does not want to write about it. If the object of the assignment was to teach her to be tolerant to homosexuals, that is rather out of place for a Health class; likewise, tolerance cannot be "taught" in such a manner.

Either way, she was within her rights to refuse writing about something she did not agree with. Heck, my gym class allowed me to do written exams instead of the physical exercises because I was way too embarassed about my bodyweight to play sports.. Does that mean my school was encouraging obesity?

By that standard, if I was asked to write a history essay discussing morality or racial cleansing in Nazi Germany, I could say " I've thought about it, and I think the Nazi's are bad and the Holocaust was mean" and refuse to write the set assignment.

She wasn't being marked on her moral beliefs, she was being marked on her ability to think about an issue, discuss it and express it. She didnt show that.

She didn't "decline." She didn't do the work, and then when her parents found out she was failing she decided to tell them that she refused to do her homework on "moral grounds."


Sure she does, and that assignment would not have stopped her from believing what she wanted. Indeed, it was specifically asking her to write down what she believed.


And she wasn't harmed by receiving a zero. See, how school works is that you turn in work in exchange for marks. You don't automatically get marks for free. The marks don't belong to you until you turn in the work. If you don't turn in the work, you don't get the marks. That's not "harming" you. It's not taking something from you, because the marks weren't yours unless you turned in the work.

It's like how if you refuse to pay for an apple, the store isn't harming you by refusing to let you have the apple for free. The apple doesn't belong to you. If you want to try to barter for a different price, the store is also not harming you if they tell you that you have to pay the same price as everybody else.


It's a 13 year old not doing her homework. Let's not blow it out of proportion here.

She specifically told the teacher she wasn't doing it for moral reasons when it was assigned to her. She did not wait until it was due, and then say she didn't do it because of moral reasons. That's an excuse. This is an objection.

The way the Nazis treated the Jews upset me but I had to read a book about it and do a report. Had I not I would have gotten a failing grade... should that not have been the case?

What would you have had the teacher do to a student who refused to do an assignment because it had to do with a subject she was uncomfortable thinking about?

Damn, beaten to the point

T except if I had a physical disability of some kind that wouldn't allow me to do exercise..

and sometimes not even then. ;)

By that standard, if I was asked to write a history essay discussing morality or racial cleansing in Nazi Germany, I could say " I've thought about it, and I think the Nazi's are bad and the Holocaust was mean" and refuse to write the set assignment.

She wasn't being marked on her moral beliefs, she was being marked on her ability to think about an issue, discuss it and express it. She didnt show that.

That depends. Would it be in a History class or a Math class? I'll say again, this was Health and Physical Education.

And she can be marked on her ability to think, discuss, and express on an issue that doesn't conflict with those beliefs.

The way the Nazis treated the Jews upset me but I had to read a book about it and do a report. Had I not I would have gotten a failing grade... should that not have been the case?

What would you have had the teacher do to a student who refused to do an assignment because it had to do with a subject she was uncomfortable thinking about?

I'd offer her a different subject. If she refused that, I'd let her pick a subject and approve or disapprove it; if the latter, offer a different one.

That depends. Would it be in a History class or a Math class? I'll say again, this was Health and Physical Education.

And she can be marked on her ability to think, discuss, and express on an issue that doesn't conflict with those beliefs.

If she had written a paper that said, (albeit more eloquently than this) Fags are a bunch of sin filled hell bound perverts, she might have a leg to stand on.

I'm really for animal rights, for example, and if someone asked me to dissect a chicken, I wouldn't do it. I'd ask for something else to do. If that was not provided, then I'd take my failing grade and complain to the district schoolboard.


I would agree with you if the teacher made her kiss another girl to find out what a homosexual kiss was like. Certainly you can write about how the insides of a chicken works even though somebody at some point had to open one up for you to find out what was inside it.

Consequences, yes. But the alternative should've been offered to her when she objected, rather than an outright failing mark.

I disagree. If the teacher felt that another assignment would accomplish the same thing, the teacher would have given another assignment. If the student refuses to do the assignment as it was given, she doesn't automatically get to rewrite the curriculum to her own liking.

I agree with you in the context of elective classes. If someone chooses to learn about a subject, then they are choosing to learn about all of it.

If we restricted school subjects to what children would choose to learn, they wouldn't learn anything. Once again, children don't pick the curriculum.

In non-elective classes such as those in Junior High and early High School, the option to alternative topics to assignments is important.

No, it isn't. All it does is allow the students to refuse to learn.

I'm really for animal rights, for example, and if someone asked me to dissect a chicken, I wouldn't do it. I'd ask for something else to do. If that was not provided, then I'd take my failing grade and complain to the district schoolboard.

Complain about what? Not receiving special treatment? Sorry, but you don't deserve special treatment in this case. If you don't dissect the chicken, you don't get the grade associated with dissecting the chicken. You get a big fat zero for that assignment. Complaining about it would be like me going to my boss and saying, "I really don't want to do my research this month. Can you let me research baseball instead?" and then complaining when she refused to pay me for the month I didn't complete my work.

And, if I read correctly, her mother chose to send her to a private school. So everybody wins.[/QUOTE]

Damn, beaten to the point

same wavelength - both posted at 1:22

Of course she was within her rights. And the teacher was within her rights - indeed doing her job properly - by giving the girl a failing grade for refusing to complete an assignment.

And no, i don't agree with your school letting you out of physical exercises because you were embarrassed. If a school is going to teach phys ed and include said exercises (which they should), they have no business making exceptions for people who don't want to do them. If you had a legitimate health issue that kept you from doing certain exercises (ie. weak knees keeping you from running up stairs, or something like that), then they would need to give you an alternate physical activity instead. However, "I'm afraid people might look at me," is not a legitimate excuse for not completing an assignment, and your school did you a great disservice by coddling you in this way.

Had I not been offered an alternative to physical exercise, I would've failed the class for sure. Therefore, I'd have no reason to attend at all.

I was lucky. My teacher thought it was more important that I get an education than run around on a hardwood floor. Likewise, I was hoping this girl's teacher would think it more important she get an education than change her morality.

Had I not been offered an alternative to physical exercise, I would've failed the class for sure. Therefore, I'd have no reason to attend at all.

I was lucky. My teacher thought it was more important that I get an education than run around on a hardwood floor. Likewise, I was hoping this girl's teacher would think it more important she get an education than change her morality.

Who said anything about changing her morality? Who said she had to think homosexuality was a good thing?

If it is alright, then why the hell are they instructing students not to tell anyone about it?

And wouldn't this be rather insulting to all the homosexual children?

She specifically told the teacher she wasn't doing it for moral reasons when it was assigned to her. She did not wait until it was due, and then say she didn't do it because of moral reasons. That's an excuse. This is an objection.
"I don't wanna do it" is not an excuse. 13 years old is more than old enough to learn that you don't always get your way.

I objected to algebra every damn day for a year and a half. So what? My kid brother pitched a fit when we were trying to teach him to use the potty. So what? If this little girl wants to piddle in her pants like a baby, then she should be sent back to preschool until she's ready to behave like a big girl.

I disagree. If the teacher felt that another assignment would accomplish the same thing, the teacher would have given another assignment. If the student refuses to do the assignment as it was given, she doesn't automatically get to rewrite the curriculum to her own liking.



If we restricted school subjects to what children would choose to learn, they wouldn't learn anything. Once again, children don't pick the curriculum.



No, it isn't. All it does is allow the students to refuse to learn.



Complain about what? Not receiving special treatment? Sorry, but you don't deserve special treatment in this case. If you don't dissect the chicken, you don't get the grade associated with dissecting the chicken. You get a big fat zero for that assignment. Complaining about it would be like me going to my boss and saying, "I really don't want to do my research this month. Can you let me research baseball instead?" and then complaining when she refused to pay me for the month I didn't complete my work.

And, if I read correctly, her mother chose to send her to a private school. So everybody wins.[/QUOTE]

We are not paid to go to school. We are forced to. We are forced to drag our asses into the classroom, forced to sit there, and forced to learn about shit we do not want to learn about, nevermind outright disagree with.

No, kids don't design the curriculum. Maybe that's part of the problem with the schooling system as a whole. In any case, there's way too many people to reply to, and my boyfriend wants to webcam with me, so my attention must go elsewhere.

I'd liked to have tried for a reasonable exchange of ideas, rather than just a repeated revoicing. But I guess that's how things go in a debate.. Which is why I stick to discussions, instead. With that, I'm out.

I'm really for animal rights, for example, and if someone asked me to dissect a chicken, I wouldn't do it. I'd ask for something else to do. If that was not provided, then I'd take my failing grade and complain to the district schoolboard.

A belief in animal rights is a legitimate excuse.

Bigotry - whatever the basis - is not.

Consequences, yes. But the alternative should've been offered to her when she objected, rather than an outright failing mark.

I agree with you in the context of elective classes. If someone chooses to learn about a subject, then they are choosing to learn about all of it. She did not choose to learn about tolerance or homosexuality. In non-elective classes such as those in Junior High and early High School, the option to alternative topics to assignments is important. I'm really for animal rights, for example, and if someone asked me to dissect a chicken, I wouldn't do it. I'd ask for something else to do. If that was not provided, then I'd take my failing grade and complain to the district schoolboard.

And, if I read correctly, her mother chose to send her to a private school. So everybody wins.

They have them virtual dissections now. Pretty nifty, they are.

Had I not been offered an alternative to physical exercise, I would've failed the class for sure. Therefore, I'd have no reason to attend at all.

And you would have deserved your failing grade. As it was, you got coddled and taught that the world should revolve around your particular embarrasments.

I was lucky.

No, you weren't.

If I had told my biology teacher that I didn't want to learn about biology and she had said, "Ok, that's fine, do this chemistry work instead," that wouldn't be lucky - that would be unlucky. It would demonstrate that I clearly had a teacher who didn't understand the point of education.

My teacher thought it was more important that I get an education than run around on a hardwood floor. Likewise, I was hoping this girl's teacher would think it more important she get an education than change her morality.

Your education obviously wasn't important to this teacher, as she allowed you to leave out a big portion of it and simply continue being unhealthy because you were embarrassed. All you learned is that you (and others) should be coddled. That the world should revolve around you. That you don't need to learn anything you don't want to learn. None of these are good lessons for a teacher to teach.

Meanwhile, for the five hundredth time, NO ONE WAS ASKING THE GIRL TO CHANGE HER MORALITY.

Kreynoria;11794532']If it is alright, then why the hell are they instructing students not to tell anyone about it?

And wouldn't this be rather insulting to all the homosexual children?

That was probably more in the vein of, "Now remember, your parents aren't in this class, so you have to do this yourself." and not "Don't tell your parents that I'm giving you this assignment or I'll get in trouble."

And how would it?

Kreynoria;11794532']If it is alright, then why the hell are they instructing students not to tell anyone about it?

Are we reading the same article? If so, I must have missed the bit where they told students not to tell anyone. Point it out please?

And wouldn't this be rather insulting to all the homosexual children?

Is The Diary of Anne Frank insulting to all the Jewish children? Not really... Is heterosexual sex education insulting to all the heterosexual children? Not really...

That depends. Would it be in a History class or a Math class? I'll say again, this was Health and Physical Education.

And she can be marked on her ability to think, discuss, and express on an issue that doesn't conflict with those beliefs.

An issue cannot conflict with someones beliefs. Saying "Abortion is okay" or "Abortion is evil" can conflict, but the question "Do you think abortion is right or wrong" can't.

I'll say it again - she could have done the essay expressing her own thoughts and views perfectly well.

Christianity contains references to Capital punishment, abortion, animal testing - in fact nearly every contraversial issue in the world. You can't simply refuse to discuss any of them

We are not paid to go to school. We are forced to. We are forced to drag our asses into the classroom, forced to sit there, and forced to learn about shit we do not want to learn about, nevermind outright disagree with.

If you are opposed to mandatory schooling, then you should lobby your government against it.

Personally, I think that ensuring all children get a good education is good thing.

No, kids don't design the curriculum. Maybe that's part of the problem with the schooling system as a whole.

Is it? So if a kid wants to learn about nothing but baseball, that should be allowed?

I'd liked to have tried for a reasonable exchange of ideas, rather than just a repeated revoicing. But I guess that's how things go in a debate.. Which is why I stick to discussions, instead. With that, I'm out.

To have a reasonable exchange of ideas, the ideas themselves have to be reasonable. "I shouldn't have to do this assigment because I don't like the subject matter, but I still want to get a good grade in my class," isn't reasonable.


A belief in animal rights is a legitimate excuse.

Bigotry - whatever the basis - is not.

Both are reasons a person might decide not to do an assigment.

And, in both cases, said person should receive a failing grade for the assigment they refused to complete.

(although I agree that the person who thinks "dissection is wrong" has at least a little more backing to their beliefs than bigotry)

Meanwhile, for the five hundredth time, NO ONE WAS ASKING THE GIRL TO CHANGE HER MORALITY.

Yes, this is true. HOWEVER, she tried playing that card and I think that she should not be able to do that- especially when morality is not the issue.

The teacher who thought that introducing an assignment about an incredibly sensitive and divisive topic that would clearly be seen as attempted indoctrination by those holding the opposing view is the one who deserves to be failed.

Classrooms are not appropriate places for political battles.

The teacher who thought that introducing an assignment about an incredibly sensitive and divisive topic that would clearly be seen as attempted indoctrination by those holding the opposing view is the one who deserves to be failed.

Classrooms are not appropriate places for political battles.

Because ¡¡¡GOD!!!! forbid that school should encourage people to think about things going on in the world today...

Besides, how is it indoctrination to ask them to write an essay about a topic without dictating which side they take?

The teacher who thought that introducing an assignment about an incredibly sensitive and divisive topic that would clearly be seen as attempted indoctrination by those holding the opposing view is the one who deserves to be failed.

Classrooms are not appropriate places for political battles.

What "opposing view"?

What "political battle"?

Where did the assigment even put forth a particular viewpoint on a divisive topic? It was specifically asking the children to give their viewpoints, and to think about what it might be like if heterosexuals were in the minority instead.

The assignment could have been completed by writing (probably with a little more detail): "Homosexuality is wrong and disgusting. Living in a society of homosexuals would make me very uncomfortable because I would know that most of the people around me are going to Hell. I would hate the people who are going to Heaven to be in the minority. I would deal with being in the minority by trying to convince as many of them as possible to stop being gay."

The teacher who thought that introducing an assignment about an incredibly sensitive and divisive topic that would clearly be seen as attempted indoctrination by those holding the opposing view is the one who deserves to be failed.

Classrooms are not appropriate places for political battles.

They are the very place for political discussions, as long as the teacher doesn't take sides.
The aim of education is to make sure that children grow into informed, confident, and able to form opinions and voice them. How else can they learn if not through discussions?

Because ¡¡¡GOD!!!! forbid that school should encourage people to think about things going on in the world today...

Besides, how is it indoctrination to ask them to write an essay about a topic without dictating which side they take?
I didn't say school's shouldn't encourage children to think; nor did I say that it was indoctrination.

What I am saying it that an exercise like this, at this point, was poor timing at best, and delibarately provocative at worst. These are the kinds of battles that need to be won among the adults first; doing things that could lead to claims of attempting to brainwash children is hardly a great way of convincing an opposing side that you're a decent guy with a valid point.

They are the very place for political discussions, as long as the teacher doesn't take sides.
The aim of education is to make sure that children grow into informed, confident, and able to form opinions and voice them. How else can they learn if not through discussions?

Thinking for ones self appears to be a threat to organized religion.

I didn't say school's shouldn't encourage children to think; nor did I say that it was indoctrination.

What I am saying it that an exercise like this, at this point, was poor timing at best, and delibarately provocative at worst. These are the kinds of battles that need to be won among the adults first; doing things that could lead to claims of attempting to brainwash children is hardly a great way of convincing an opposing side that you're a decent guy with a valid point.

Anyone who considers something like that to be brainwashing or indoctrination clearly shouldn't have a say in what is taught in schools anyways.

I didn't say school's shouldn't encourage children to think; nor did I say that it was indoctrination.

What I am saying it that an exercise like this, at this point, was poor timing at best, and delibarately provocative at worst. These are the kinds of battles that need to be won among the adults first; doing things that could lead to claims of attempting to brainwash children is hardly a great way of convincing an opposing side that you're a decent guy with a valid point.

What on earth is provocative about asking children to imagine life as a minority? They weren't even asked about their own views on homosexuality, they were simply asked how they would feel and what they would do to cope with the situation.
Please do point out to me how that can in any way be regarded to be brainwash?

Anyone who considers something like that to be brainwashing or indoctrination clearly shouldn't have a say in what is taught in schools anyways.
Well, like I say, convince the parents of that first. This kind of thing just leads to greater divisions and an increased determination not to 'give in' to the opposing view.

Thinking for ones self appears to be a threat to organized religion.

i'd say thats a proven fact.

She should of been offered an alternate assignment. She has a right to bow out of things based on her religion.

What if she was forced to live in the gayest parts of LA for a month? How would she feel after coming out?

I think that would depend on how she was treated by those who are residents of the "gayest part of LA". One could experience an epiphany and realize that the residents are people, just like they are where she comes from. She might, then discover that she feels affection and admiration for some and revulsion for others.

Still, choosing "homosexuality" as the scenario is a known hot button. The assignment could certianly be just as effective and valuable if a less reactive scenario had been used. It's somewhat in-your-face, especially given the age of the students. I'm pretty sure that I'd have found it creepy at 13.

Well, like I say, convince the parents of that first. This kind of thing just leads to greater divisions and an increased determination not to 'give in' to the opposing view.

"I won't believe this because he gave my boy an assigment related to this! GRR!"

Like I said... Those people ^^ shouldn't have a say in the education system.

Anyone who considers something like that to be brainwashing or indoctrination clearly shouldn't have a say in what is taught in schools anyways.

Way to discount an alternate view.

She should of been offered an alternate assignment. She has a right to bow out of things based on her religion.

She can't write about her own feelings were she to be a minority because she "doesn't belive in homosexuals"? I think to claim excemption on the basis of her religion, it would need a little more detailed explanation than a simple "I'm not going there", especially since the assignment was not explicitly about homosexuality at all.

*kicks the argument*

Excellent Strawman! Rather Good construction!

Category mistake. Asking whether proponents of a specific position whether they'd support those principles being applied to another situation is not a straw man. Assuming they do without asking might be however.

I suspect what you actually meant to accuse the argument of being is a "Reductio ad absurdum". You'd still be wrong in my view, but in a more logical way.I'd offer her a different subject. If she refused that, I'd let her pick a subject and approve or disapprove it; if the latter, offer a different one.

Should any student have that right then?

I'll give you an example. I despise Jane Austen. I think she's a tired hack and I hate all her characters, smug twats that they invariably are. I still had to study her at school. Should I have had the option of choosing my own book to study? Because, if you believe that fair enough. If not, than this is a clear case of actually saying that Christians should get special treatment not available to everyone.

Way to discount an alternate view.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying that people who don't believe in homosexuality shouldn't have a say in the educational system. I'm saying that the type of people who believe asking someone to right about something involving homosexuality is indoctrinating them to accept homosexuality shouldn't.

What on earth is provocative about asking children to imagine life as a minority? They weren't even asked about their own views on homosexuality, they were simply asked how they would feel and what they would do to cope with the situation.
Please do point out to me how that can in any way be regarded to be brainwash?
A teacher in a country where a huge debate and divide exists over the subject of homosexuality instructs his class to imagine what it would be like to live as someone in a minority sexuality, presumably with the intention of them saying how awful they would feel about it.

Gee, I can't possibly imagine why someone who thinks differently might find that objectionable. :rolleyes:

A teacher in a country where a huge debate and divide exists over the subject of homosexuality instructs his class to imagine what it would be like to live as someone in a minority sexuality, presumably with the intention of them saying how awful they would feel about it.

Gee, I can't possibly imagine why someone who thinks differently might find that objectionable. :rolleyes:

I can. Because they're a paranoid loony.

A teacher in a country where a huge debate and divide exists over the subject of homosexuality instructs his class to imagine what it would be like to live as someone in a minority sexuality, presumably with the intention of them saying how awful they would feel about it.

Gee, I can't possibly imagine why someone who thinks differently might find that objectionable. :rolleyes:

True, but here's another similar scenario mentioned by the forumers:

a girl walks around in very sluttly clothes. Is sexual harrassment on her justified?



Just because something should be expected to happen does not make the action right if done.

She can't write about her own feelings were she to be a minority because she "doesn't belive in homosexuals"? I think to claim excemption on the basis of her religion, it would need a little more detailed explanation than a simple "I'm not going there", especially since the assignment was not explicitly about homosexuality at all.

Still, the teacher should of adapted, saying something like "Then imagine being in a mostly (insert race here) colony." Making everyone happy. And WTF does this have to do with health and/or phys education?

She should of been offered an alternate assignment. She has a right to bow out of things based on her religion.

As I said before, the bible makes comments that have relevence to virtually every divisive issue in society. Capital punishment, abortion, animal rights, whatever - the bible has a point of view.

Saying you feel so uncomfortable discussing one issue, but are happy to discuss another, even if it is mentioned more heavily in the bible, is completly hypocritical.

What on earth is provocative about asking children to imagine life as a minority? They weren't even asked about their own views on homosexuality, they were simply asked how they would feel and what they would do to cope with the situation.
Please do point out to me how that can in any way be regarded to be brainwash?

Really, Cabra, I know you live in that unfortunate country of Ireland, but haven't you heard of the Homesexual Agenda? It's required reading at all the US media outlets for new employees, and at all the big universities and colleges. It has very elaborate plans for turning Little Janey and Little Johnny into flaming lesbos and fags, and if not that, then into limp-wristed fellow-travellers. I thought everyone knew that! This incident shows that the Homosexual Agenda has made its way across the Pacific and is mounting an assault on Australia, too. :eek:

Assuming the article in the OP was factual, the school did screw up a bit with their admonition to keep the assignment from the parents. Otherwise, it seems like a straight-forward (no pun intended) thought exercise. The girl wasn't required to imagine herself being a homosexual, on the contrary, she was to imagine being heterosexual. Ah, well, it seems so silly and yet people will get so bent out of shape over it.

A teacher in a country where a huge debate and divide exists over the subject of homosexuality instructs his class to imagine what it would be like to live as someone in a minority sexuality, presumably with the intention of them saying how awful they would feel about it.

Gee, I can't possibly imagine why someone who thinks differently might find that objectionable. :rolleyes:

He wasn't asking them to discuss homosexuality, he asked them to imagine what it would be like in their shoes.

When I was 14, there was a huge political discussion in Germany about the legislation on asylum seekers. There were attacks against asylum seekers' homes, people were killed. If, in this situation, one of our teachers had asked my class to imagine we had to leave Germany and seek asylum in Morocco, and then write about how that would make us feel and how we would try to cope, would that have been objectionable?

It's not as if they were telling them to pretend like they're gay, sorry homosexuality is real,
If we're not supposed to break her little belief that there is no such thing as homsexuality. I suppose we should stop teaching that the world is round, I mean some people might still think it's flat.

A teacher in a country where a huge debate and divide exists over the subject of homosexuality instructs his class to imagine what it would be like to live as someone in a minority sexuality, presumably with the intention of them saying how awful they would feel about it.

Gee, I can't possibly imagine why someone who thinks differently might find that objectionable. :rolleyes:

There was nothing in the assignment that said they should feel awful about it. They were told to give a view point. This little girl obviously has a view point. Why couldn't she write that down? "In this situation, I'd be convinced that the apocolypse has commenced...."

She should of been offered an alternate assignment. She has a right to bow out of things based on her religion.

No not really. Teachers choice.

You would have to grant alternative assignments for everything after that.

She had a choice. Do the assignment or fail. She made her choice.

True, but here's another similar scenario mentioned by the forumers:

a girl walks around in very sluttly clothes. Is sexual harrassment on her justified?



Just because something should be expected to happen does not make the action right if done.

Are you comparing an even handed discussion with rape?

Still, the teacher should of adapted, saying something like "Then imagine being in a mostly (insert race here) colony." Making everyone happy. And WTF does this have to do with health and/or phys education?

Mental health. Emotional health. All that touchy feely goodness.

Are you comparing an even handed discussion with rape?

Nope. He's comparing considering that assignment brainwashing with sexual assault.

Really, Cabra, I know you live in that unfortunate country of Ireland, but haven't you heard of the Homesexual Agenda? It's required reading at all the US media outlets for new employees, and at all the big universities and colleges. It has very elaborate plans for turning Little Janey and Little Johnny into flaming lesbos and fags, and if not that, then into limp-wristed fellow-travellers. I thought everyone knew that! This incident shows that the Homosexual Agenda has made its way across the Pacific and is mounting an assault on Australia, too. :eek:

Assuming the article in the OP was factual, the school did screw up a bit with their admonition to keep the assignment from the parents. Otherwise, it seems like a straight-forward (no pun intended) thought exercise. The girl wasn't required to imagine herself being a homosexual, on the contrary, she was to imagine being heterosexual. Ah, well, it seems so silly and yet people will get so bent out of shape over it.


*lol
Well, I heard about it here. It hasn't been mentioned to me either in Germany nor in Ireland. ;) It's just a big non-issue in my life, really.

And I just enjoy the discussion...

He wasn't asking them to discuss homosexuality, he asked them to imagine what it would be like in their shoes.

When I was 14, there was a huge political discussion in Germany about the legislation on asylum seekers. There were attacks against asylum seekers' homes, people were killed. If, in this situation, one of our teachers had asked my class to imagine we had to leave Germany and seek asylum in Morocco, and then write about how that would make us feel and how we would try to cope, would that have been objectionable?
Yes; as I say, classrooms are places for learning and free thought, not placing political viewpoints in childrens minds.

Asking you about the situation in general is not objectionable; asking you to form an argument and back it up is to be encouraged; leading you to a politically charged conclusion is inappropriate.

It's not as if they were telling them to pretend like they're gay, sorry homosexuality is real,
If we're not supposed to break her little belief that there is no such thing as homsexuality. I suppose we should stop teaching that the world is round, I mean some people might still think it's flat.

Prove that it's real and not a form of phsychosis... (wait for it) ... to Fred Phelps. If you can't convince everyone on the planet, don't call it a truth.

*lol
Well, I heard about it here. It hasn't been mentioned to me either in Germany nor in Ireland. ;) It's just a big non-issue in my life, really.

And I just enjoy the discussion...

It does get mentioned here from time to time, more's the pity. And yeah, I know, you're a discussion-junkie. Me, too, though by this time in the day (16:00 US Mountain) I start to get silly.

Are you comparing an even handed discussion with rape?

The principle in the specific scenario, sort of. (I said sexual harrassment, not rape).

I used it so that NSers could recall the principle in that particular debate.

(it is a lot worse, but the principle behind the question was the same).

Prove that it's real and not a form of phsychosis... (wait for it) ... to Fred Phelps. If you can't convince everyone on the planet, don't call it a truth.

So long as Christians don't call the bible the truth...

Come to think of it, pretty much anything can be disbelieved by at least one person so...

Yes; as I say, classrooms are places for learning and free thought, not placing political viewpoints in childrens minds.

Asking you about the situation in general is not objectionable; asking you to form an argument and back it up is to be encouraged; leading you to a politically charged conclusion is inappropriate.

Leading you is inappropriate. Asking you to think about a given situation from a different point of view is appropriate. And that's all the teacher did.

Yes; as I say, classrooms are places for learning and free thought, not placing political viewpoints in childrens minds.

Asking you about the situation in general is not objectionable; asking you to form an argument and back it up is to be encouraged; leading you to a politically charged conclusion is inappropriate.

What leading was there? What leading at all?

She should of been offered an alternate assignment. She has a right to bow out of things based on her religion.

What if her religion says she can't do algebra? Should she be given an alternate assignment and still get credit for algebra? If we started giving every child who didn't want to do an assignment something else to do, children would learn very little in school and teachers would be even more overworked than they are now.

She has a right to bow out of things based on her religion, yes. But she also must deal with the consequences of that action. She does not have a right to special treatment on the basis of her religion. She should take her failing grade and leave it at that. She didn't do the assignment, so she fails - period.


Still, choosing "homosexuality" as the scenario is a known hot button. The assignment could certianly be just as effective and valuable if a less reactive scenario had been used. It's somewhat in-your-face, especially given the age of the students. I'm pretty sure that I'd have found it creepy at 13.

This was in a health class. My guess what that, along with sex ed, they discussed sexuality. At 13, all of these subjects are probably seen as "icky", but they are also subjects that the students are beginning to deal with, and need to know about. Part of the issue of sexuality would include the possibility of being in the minority.

So long as Christians don't call the bible the truth...

Come to think of it, pretty much anything can be disbelieved by at least one person so...

Truth is subjective. Exactly. :D

Because heaven forbid, she actually be confronted with how her viewpoints actually affect people.
how can you say that? it never said she was being mean to or harassing gays. just because her belifes disagree with homosexuals dosen't mean that she cannot be tolerant. look up the word tolerant or tolerance it is different than acceptance.




The reaction of this girl and her mother demonstrate to me that both should be forced to do the assignment in question, to teach them a thing or two about tolerance, understanding and reading comprehension. The assignment didn't actually ask her to imagine she was gay, agree with the homosexual orientation, or even debate homosexuality. What it did was ask her to imagine what it would feel like to be in a minority.


first of all people have rights and children cannot be forced to do somthing if it gose aganst their religion - even if it dosent why was this assignment in a health class?? maybe social studies or even [insert nation here] history.i agree with that one guy this assignemt is just a school or teacher pussing their agenda on the youth.and the worst part is that they tried to hide it from the parents. i know if it was me i would have said "that's BS you cannot make my lie to my family i'll tell them and so will my friends tell their parents." then we wiould and the school would drop the assignment and act like it never happened as for the minority thing; gays are people too. their blood is not acid and theyy are not possesed.homosexuality is just a life style nothing more and nothing less



And for fuck's sake, what did she expect for refusing to do the assignment? Why should I go to extra work for her just because she has offensive and bigoted views?
who are you to call someones belifes offensive/ bigoted?? if anyone's views are offensive/bigotery it would be yours. why do you express sutch hate for people who frown ouppon homosexuality.



final thoughts: this assignment has no place in that class and the girl had a right to refuse.now your thinking that anyone can get out of an assigment by saying that but thare have been a trial where in the state you had to go to school untill you were 16 but some amish people left after 8th grade at the age of 14 because in the amish religion you don't go to high school. it was taken to court and decided that baised upon sound true religous belifes they did not have to attended school.

What if her religion says she can't do algebra? Should she be given an alternate assignment and still get credit for algebra? If we started giving every child who didn't want to do an assignment something else to do, children would learn very little in school and teachers would be even more overworked than they are now.

She has a right to bow out of things based on her religion, yes. But she also must deal with the consequences of that action. She does not have a right to special treatment on the basis of her religion. She should take her failing grade and leave it at that. She didn't do the assignment, so she fails - period.

How do you get a failing mark on a report card for one missed asignmenmt though?

How do you get a failing mark on a report card for one missed asignmenmt though?

If A), you're not doing very well to begin with, or B) it's a final project assignment thing.

Or in the school I attend in New York (don't know if this is how it works in Australia) a major assignment not being completed would go on your report card as an incomplete, which places you on the failing list.

Leading you is inappropriate. Asking you to think about a given situation from a different point of view is appropriate. And that's all the teacher did.
When the political atmosphere is as charged as this issue is, the line on where 'appropriate' is should fall very much further towards the side of caution. Whatever the views are towards the child and her parents, this remains a silly thing to do by the teachers in the first place.

It's like lighting a match; whether or not you 'agree' with the 'morality' of such an act, it's still a stupid thing to do when you're standing next to a barrel of gunpowder.

Prove that it's real and not a form of phsychosis... (wait for it) ... to Fred Phelps. If you can't convince everyone on the planet, don't call it a truth.

Proving that you do not exist in logical format using your premise:
1. It is impossible to convince everyone on the planet that Free shepmanigans exists.
2. Therefore, it is not true Free shepmanigans exists.
3. Therefore, Free shepmanigans does not exist.

Or even:
1. It is impossible to convince everyone on the planet that "if you can't convince everyone on the planet, don't call it a truth".
2. Therefore, you do not need to convince everyone on the planet of something to call it a truth.
QED.

I was not aware that their was a religion that required you to be a slack-off.

When the political atmosphere is as charged as this issue is, the line on where 'appropriate' is should fall very much further towards the side of caution. Whatever the views are towards the child and her parents, this remains a silly thing to do by the teachers in the first place.

It's like lighting a match; whether or not you 'agree' with the 'morality' of such an act, it's still a stupid thing to do when you're standing next to a barrel of gunpowder.

So what you're saying is, is that since a lot of people don't like homosexuality, it shouldn't be discussed?

Sorry, but are you reading a different thread or something?

What I've said is that because it's such a politically charged debate it's not an issue to introduce in schools in any fashion that could be considered to be party political.

And how could this be considered part political?

So what you're saying is, is that since a lot of people don't like homosexuality, it shouldn't be discussed?
Sorry, but are you reading a different thread or something?

What I've said is that because it's such a politically charged debate it's not an issue to introduce in schools in any fashion that could be considered to be party political.

Sorry, but are you reading a different thread or something?

What I've said is that because it's such a politically charged debate it's not an issue to introduce in schools in any fashion that could be considered to be party political.

How could this be considered party political?

When the political atmosphere is as charged as this issue is, the line on where 'appropriate' is should fall very much further towards the side of caution. Whatever the views are towards the child and her parents, this remains a silly thing to do by the teachers in the first place.

It's like lighting a match; whether or not you 'agree' with the 'morality' of such an act, it's still a stupid thing to do when you're standing next to a barrel of gunpowder.

That's why it is called a contraversial issue. If everyone agreed with you there would be no point in discussing it.

Incidently, can we avoid grand philosophical discussions on the nature of truth? They make my head hurt.

Sorry, but are you reading a different thread or something?

What I've said is that because it's such a politically charged debate it's not an issue to introduce in schools in any fashion that could be considered to be party political.

Any proof that she wouldn't be able to speak her mind?

When the political atmosphere is as charged as this issue is, the line on where 'appropriate' is should fall very much further towards the side of caution. Whatever the views are towards the child and her parents, this remains a silly thing to do by the teachers in the first place.

It's like lighting a match; whether or not you 'agree' with the 'morality' of such an act, it's still a stupid thing to do when you're standing next to a barrel of gunpowder.

Personally, I will be happy if my future childrens' teachers will challenge them to consider current issues without any fear of authority, and will go to some lengths to show them different aspects and perspectives on all topics.

It's school. It's meant to be a challenge. It's meant to get you thinking about the world you live in. It's not supposed to keep deliberately silent on some topics just because there is currently a public discussion on them. In a democratic country, schools should reflect this democracy in the classrooms, discussion of every topic with every opinion ought to be normal rather than scary.

A teacher in a country where a huge debate and divide exists over the subject of homosexuality instructs his class to imagine what it would be like to live as someone in a minority sexuality, presumably with the intention of them saying how awful they would feel about it.

Who are you to presume the teacher's intentions? Maybe *you* would only give a thought-exercise assignment to hear a specific answer, but most teachers do it to get the students thinking. That's generally what a thought-exercise is about.

I see no reason to believe that the teacher in this case was looking for the students to say how "awful" they'd feel about it. The assignment could have been completed by saying that they wouldn't feel any different about being heterosexual than they do now, so there wouldn't be anything to cope with, and explaining why they felt that it wouldn't be a problem.


how can you say that? it never said she was being mean to or harassing gays. just because her belifes disagree with homosexuals dosen't mean that she cannot be tolerant. look up the word tolerant or tolerance it is different than acceptance.

In that case, what reason did she have for not doing the assignment?

homosexuality is just a life style nothing more and nothing less

Actually, it isn't a lifestyle at all. Homosexuals lead the same range of lifestyles as heterosexuals, bisexuals, asexuals, etc. It is a sexual orientation, plain and simple.

who are you to call someones belifes offensive/ bigoted?? if anyone's views are offensive/bigotery it would be yours. why do you express sutch hate for people who frown ouppon homosexuality.

If I say that a person who thinks that black people are inferior and should be wiped off the planet is a bigot, does that make me, in turn, bigotted? Or am I simply properly categorizing their views?

Someone who is intolerant of homosexuals is a bigot, by the very definition of the word.


How do you get a failing mark on a report card for one missed asignmenmt though?

Depends on the number of assignments given and how well she did on each of them. In 5th grade, I had a single missed assignment drop me an entire letter grade. Had there been less assignments overall or had the grading scale been stricter, it could have dropped me two or even three.


When the political atmosphere is as charged as this issue is, the line on where 'appropriate' is should fall very much further towards the side of caution. Whatever the views are towards the child and her parents, this was a silly thing to do by the teachers in the first place.

I disagree. I think that politically charged issues *should* be discussed in a classroom setting. Students *should* be encouraged to think about them and form opinions.

Proving that you do not exist in logical format using your premise:
1. It is impossible to convince everyone on the planet that Free shepmanigans exists.
2. Therefore, it is not true Free shepmanigans exists.
3. Therefore, Free shepmanigans does not exist.\

For all intents and purposes I do not exist to Kim Jong-Il.


Or even:
1. It is impossible to convince everyone on the planet that "if you can't convince everyone on the planet, don't call it a truth".
2. Therefore, you do not need to convince everyone on the planet of something to call it a truth.
QED.
You havn't convinced me of that.:p

I was not aware that their was a religion that required you to be a slack-off.

http://www.subgenius.com/ :cool:

http://www.subgenius.com/ :cool:

I'll be darned. It WAS against her religious beliefs.

Friggin' bigot.

Because heaven forbid, she actually be confronted with how her viewpoints actually affect people. The reaction of this girl and her mother demonstrate to me that both should be forced to do the assignment in question, to teach them a thing or two about tolerance, understanding and reading comprehension. The assignment didn't actually ask her to imagine she was gay, agree with the homosexual orientation, or even debate homosexuality. What it did was ask her to imagine what it would feel like to be in a minority.

And for fuck's sake, what did she expect for refusing to do the assignment? Why should I go to extra work for her just because she has offensive and bigoted views?


Why the hell is the school talking about the homosexual community in the first place? Stick to Reading, Writing and Arithmetic instead of "sensitivity training".

If the assignment wanted her to imagine what it felt like to be a minority, then that should have been the topic. The students could have chosen a minority group if they wished and wrote a paper from that minority's perspective.

and how does she have offensive and bigoted views? you do not know her exact views. just because someone, especially a kid in the 9th grade, has reservations about homosexuality does not mean they are a hateful bigot. did she promote violence against any homosexuals? would you have been approving if a homosexual was asked to consider a Christians point of view?

It was a stupid assignment and the teacher was insensitive to the girls religous views.

This is newsworthy and absolutely should be in the headlines. it shows how distracted our school system is from the basics of learning.

Why the hell is the school talking about the homosexual community in the first place? Stick to Reading, Writing and Arithmetic instead of "sensitivity training".

If the assignment wanted her to imagine what it felt like to be a minority, then that should have been the topic. The students could have chosen a minority group if they wished and wrote a paper from that minority's perspective.

and how does she have offensive and bigoted views? you do not know her exact views. just because someone, especially a kid in the 9th grade, has reservations about homosexuality does not mean they are a hateful bigot. did she promote violence against any homosexuals? would you have been approving if a homosexual was asked to consider a Christians point of view?

It was a stupid assignment and the teacher was insensitive to the girls religous views.

This is newsworthy and absolutely should be in the headlines. it shows how distracted our school system is from the basics of learning.


Yep. Godforbid schools should teach kids critical thought. Where would that end??? :rolleyes:

Oh yes, let's ignore sensitivity training. Let the children learn instead from their bigoted parents or psycho-racists on the 'net. Are we going to repeat the '50s and '60s? The last thing we need right now is the "gay panthers" blowing up buildings.

Why the hell is the school talking about the homosexual community in the first place? Stick to Reading, Writing and Arithmetic instead of "sensitivity training".


So you're against the current move in some schools to teach abstinence? How about art and music? Home economics? Sports?

In that case, what reason did she have for not doing the assignmen


because it went aganst her belifes in what ever way she has the right to refuse the assignment and not fail the class







If I say that a person who thinks that black people are inferior and should be wiped off the planet is a bigot, does that make me, in turn, bigotted? Or am I simply properly categorizing their views?

true but she was not trying to wipe homos off the face of the earth she just was opposed to writting about living in a gay couminity

Someone who is intolerant of homosexuals is a bigot, by the very definition of the word.

again with tolerance. show me wher in the artical where it sayis the girl was in tolerant of gays. she obivously didnot accept gays but again there two different words.



Depends on the number of assignments given and how well she did on each of them. In 5th grade, I had a single missed assignment drop me an entire letter grade. Had there been less assignments overall or had the grading scale been stricter, it could have dropped me two or even three.



I disagree. I think that politically charged issues *should* be discussed in a classroom setting. Students *should* be encouraged to think about them and form opinions.
yeah discussed not say " write about a gay couminity or you fail, oh and don't tell your mom (mum)."

can someone please explain to me what the assignment had dto do with health/P.E.????:confused:

Yep. Godforbid schools should teach kids critical thought. Where would that end??? :rolleyes:

Critical thought huh? Then why was the student not given an alternate assignment? Why was the subject so specific and not about minority groups in general? Why didn't the teacher use critical thought and put herself in place of the student?

Someone mentioned a politically correct agenda and they are absolutely right. this was not an excercise in critical thought.

yeah discussed not say " write about a gay couminity or you fail, oh and don't tell your mom (mum)."

Did any of you guys even read the article???
She was not asked to write about homosexuals, she was asked to write about how she would feel if her own sexuality would be the minority and how she would cope with the discrimintations to be expected in such a situation.
She was not told not to tell her parents, her mother complained that she wasn't explicitly told about this specific assignment.

:rolleyes: