NationStates Jolt Archive

If you are truly saved, you will want to do all that Jazz because of your love for God.
But, how does one know one is truly saved? We are not told our destiny, and thus left to find it out on our own. We have free will, and so, we can change our destiny, even if it has been written out for us.

Ah, but which law? Whose law? There's the rub.

God's Law.

I know. It's so cute how so many are so quick to tell us non-Christians all about the beautiful peacefulness of life with Christ, until another Christian walks into the room and then watch out! The fur does fly. Meow.

It's only because they want to protect the Gospel.

And there is peace. I get along with Christians much better than nonChristians, because there is that communion there, even if we disagree on a lot.

An entire religious movement fueled by continuously picking holes in other people's coats. I feel for those Protestant churches who work so hard to get past that.

Seems like they're forgetting the whole "remove the roofbeam from your own eye before you try to get the straw out of your brother's" part of the Bible.

But, how does one know one is truly saved? We are not told our destiny, and thus left to find it out on our own. We have free will, and so, we can change our destiny, even if it has been written out for us.

:confused:

Her nature is sinful and God can judge her for that.

God can also be judging you through your emotional pain over the problems. But He is also merciful to her through the doctors and medicines and intercessory prayer and all those other things.

We are His. And He can do what He wants with us. But that does not mean that He is malicious against us.
God nearly killed my child because her nature is sinful?

why didn't He try to kill you? you also have a sinful nature

or did I actively do something that caused God to nearly kill my child?

I prefer to believe that she has an abnormality on one of her chromosomes that causes this disorder.
An entire religious movement fueled by continuously picking holes in other people's coats. I feel for those Protestant churches who work so hard to get past that.
I am mostly past it, until one of them starts to speak for us and says things like the nazi's were ordained by God and doing his work as agents of wrath.... then I really have trouble keeping my mouth shut you know?
So then, there is no point to religion, going to church, following the Bible and all that jazz, because by that logic, all efforts are futile because no matter what one does, their fate has already been decided.
sure, if you believe in that sort of predestination.

He is NOT malicious? But, you just contradicted yourself! You said that he allows suffering, isn't that malicious?

No. He loves us. He does not wish evil on us. And justice is not evil.

I never said any of there policies were. Well, I may have said many of their policies weren't. Because there must have been some good one somewhere. What it is though, I have no idea. The Nazis had some virtue. Loyalty being one, but they twisted that virtue and applied it in a way that it became a vice.

What I said was (or at least meant to say) was God uses the even the evil of evil for His means. They were a vessel of wrath against who? I don't know. I am not God. But anything "bad" that happens happens because it is God's judgement on someone. From the cold I have to Hurricane Katrina, they aer all judgement. Could God prevent them? Of course. So why doesn't He? Because He doesn't want to. Why? Again I am not God. But He says that everything happens for His glory. So, if it is for His glory, it must be, among other things, for the glory of His justice and mercy. So the cold I suffer from is a more merciful judgement and Hurricane Katrina is less merciful. Which is not to say that I am less deseving of punishment than those in New Orelans. Just that God chose to be more merciful to me (so far). Why? I don't know, but it certainly isn't because of merit on my part.

So all of this applies to the Nazis. God allowed them to be for vessels of His justice among other things. And then He did justice on them in various ways also.

Way to go, Edwardis. You didn't wait for me to push you off the cliff. You went right ahead and jumped.

You have just cast the Nazis as God's angels. You have just announced it is good and right for human beings to suffer. You have just announced that WW2 and the Holocaust were some kind of justice from God. For what sin, pray tell? Or is that another thing you can answer by saying, "I don't know; I'm not God"? How convenient for you, to be able to shrug off all those horrors by saying, "Well, I guess they must have deserved it somehow," and also shrug off what I have heard is the Christian duty towards charity and compassion by saying, "It's God's will for those people to suffer, so who am I to buck that authority?" And not content with all of that, you have dared to compare the deaths and destruction of Katrina to your own personal suffering every time you feel a little chill.

Despicable.

No theocracy can be holy because we are human, we are unable to achieve a holy state.

I don't think you even read about King Josiah either.



God shows me new things each day, and taking the scripture as a whole (not just what Paul says) I think if one of us is wrong, it's not me.

Of course not. But that's why it's our responsibility to show each other our errors.

Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He (*government authority) is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

*Italics and bolding by me

The interesting thing to consider is Reagan's "Evil Empire" and GW's overthrow of Saddam. Obviously there is no Evil Empire as God chose the leader. And GW went against God's will in overthrowing a leader that God had selected.

The better move would be to wait for God to make the change as he did in the Soviet Union. No war, just a change of leadership and national borders.

I mentioned this in another thread, Smunkee, but I imagine it got lost in the shuffle. Something I find interesting is the way some--not you, I'd imagine--will look at their own sufferings as a test of their faith, but the sufferings of others as God's retribution for some evil they have done. Scary, isn't it?
it is. I think the true test of your faith isn't what happens to you, but how you react to it.

2 are examples of an unholy theocracy: the goverment wasn't following God.
King Josiah shows the problem with having one person in charge, not a problem with theocracy.
In other words, only one example can be interpreted to support your assertion, so you will simply reject the two that clearly contradict it.

Well you contradicted yourself, because if God shows you something, you know something which is best. But that aside, God has shown me something different from you. So, since God cannot contradict Himself, one of us must be wrong.

Your omnipotent and all-wise god shows two different people two different things. Rather than ask yourself why he would do that, you just assume that one of the recipients of his lessons must be wrong. Second-guessing god now, rather than exert yourself to think more deeply about his messages?

Of course not. But that's why it's our responsibility to show each other our errors.

I am glad you say that. I think you are in error trying to apply what you believe about God to government procedure. I think you are in error to assume that a theocracy is anything but bad. I think you are in error in the way you think about God, His love, His justice, His judgement and His Kingdom.

Way to go, Edwardis. You didn't wait for me to push you off the cliff. You went right ahead and jumped.

You have just cast the Nazis as God's angels. You have just announced it is good and right for human beings to suffer. You have just announced that WW2 and the Holocaust were some kind of justice from God. For what sin, pray tell? Or is that another thing you can answer by saying, "I don't know; I'm not God"? How convenient for you, to be able to shrug off all those horrors by saying, "Well, I guess they must have deserved it somehow," and also shrug off what I have heard is the Christian duty towards charity and compassion by saying, "It's God's will for those people to suffer, so who am I to buck that authority?" And not content with all of that, you have dared to compare the deaths and destruction of Katrina to your own personal suffering every time you feel a little chill.

Despicable.

I never said that the Nazis are God's angels. I said that God used them. He uses sin all the time. It was a sin to kill a guitless man, yet it is trough Jesus death that we are saved.

And I am not disregarding the horror of the Nazis deeds. They were horrible. But there can still be judgement through the horror. The people who went through all that deserved far worse. You deserve far worse. I deserve far worse. The Nazis deserve far worse.

And I was not saying that my chill is anywhere near equivalent with the suffering of Katrina. I was saying that every suffering is a judgement, big or indescribably small.

In other words, only one example can be interpreted to support your assertion, so you will simply reject the two that clearly contradict it.



Your omnipotent and all-wise god shows two different people two different things. Rather than ask yourself why he would do that, you just assume that one of the recipients of his lessons must be wrong. Second-guessing god now, rather than exert yourself to think more deeply about his messages?

Satan appears as an angel of light.

No. He loves us. He does not wish evil on us. And justice is not evil.
If justice is not evil, then why does your God allow for evil to happen?

If He loves us, why does he act like a drunken parent who wants to cast their child out into the cold because the child isn't perfect?

If He does not wish evil upon us, why did he allow for the Nazis and other regimes of questionable morality to exist?

it is. I think the true test of your faith isn't what happens to you, but how you react to it.
The problem with the scenario I posed to you is the arrogance of it all--that you know you're good enough that God is only testing you, but you can see the sinfulness of others so easily that you know God is punishing them. What arrogance!

Yes and no. The Nazis were God's servants in that they were God's agents of wrath. But not all their policies were totally in line with God's Law, so they were not God-fearing people.

Without the Nazi's how would God have established Israel? Death isn't bad in the eyes of God.

The problem with the scenario I posed to you is the arrogance of it all--that you know you're good enough that God is only testing you, but you can see the sinfulness of others so easily that you know God is punishing them. What arrogance!

I don't think that God is testing me or punishing me by the circumstances in my life, or anyone elses. Bad things happen to people, that's a given, I don't think they are God ordained or commanded, I think bad stuff just happens.

I don't think that God is testing me or punishing me by the circumstances in my life, or anyone elses. Bad things happen to people, that's a given, I don't think they are God ordained or commanded, I think bad stuff just happens.

Which is the sensible way to look at things. Because otherwise you get into all sorts of rhetorical entanglements that simply cannot be reconciled with the idea of a just and loving omnipotent God.

So then, there is no point to religion, going to church, following the Bible and all that jazz, because by that logic, all efforts are futile because no matter what one does, their fate has already been decided.

Yeah, pretty much. My experience with hardcore Calvinists (there are more moderate ones) is that they are a fairly selfish, self-serving bunch, who enjoy watching the human suffering that happens outside their little social circle and congratulating themselves on being on the right side of God, for which they get paid off with whatever they think is of value in their lives. They are not charitable. They are not compassionate. The really extreme ones tend even to oppose medical research and poverty relief efforts because they say it goes against the will of god to help those he has damned. In practical terms, they tend to just want to make sure that the people they think are inferior to themselves, stay that way.

I do not like hardcore Calvinists.

Which is the sensible way to look at things. Because otherwise you get into all sorts of rhetorical entanglements that simply cannot be reconciled with the idea of a just and loving omnipotent God.

http://www.businesspipeline.com/pressreleases/poem_3.htm

I used to have this hanging on my cubicle when I worked for someone else, it pretty much sums it up. It's not "churchy" but it explains what I was trying to say. ;)

If justice is not evil, then why does your God allow for evil to happen?

If He loves us, why does he act like a drunken parent who wants to cast their child out into the cold because the child isn't perfect?

If He does not wish evil upon us, why did he allow for the Nazis and other regimes of questionable morality to exist?

Because evil can be used as judgement.

And God is long suffereing. If He weren't we would all be burning in Hell right now.

Yes and no.

Those who are saved also had it coming. And God sometimes gives it to them. And sometimes He doesn't give the heathen what he has coming.

Oh, I see. Heathens all have it coming, do we? Then why doesn't your god let us have it, then? I suppose you think he's just biding his time. Or maybe this is another thing you think he got wrong. It couldn't possibly be that you are the one who is wrong, and that in fact, heathens do not automatically have any punishment coming to them.

Without the Nazi's how would God have established Israel? Death isn't bad in the eyes of God.

It is sad in God's eyes, not bad.

Are you being sarcastic?

Yeah, pretty much. My experience with hardcore Calvinists (there are more moderate ones) is that they are a fairly selfish, self-serving bunch, who enjoy watching the human suffering that happens outside their little social circle and congratulating themselves on being on the right side of God, for which they get paid off with whatever they think is of value in their lives. They are not charitable. They are not compassionate. The really extreme ones tend even to oppose medical research and poverty relief efforts because they say it goes against the will of god to help those he has damned. In practical terms, they tend to just want to make sure that the people they think are inferior to themselves, stay that way.

I do not like hardcore Calvinists.

Well I'm sorry you had those experiences with those hypocrites. They go against what true Calvinism stands for.

Because evil can be used as judgement.

And God is long suffereing. If He weren't we would all be burning in Hell right now.

you see God as that kid in the playground holding the magnifying glass over the ants don't you?

yeah i know, its just hard to see someone say something so utterly stupid and not react to it. calvinism is one of the more unchristian of all the christian denominations.

My loathing for it increases with each of Edwardis's posts.

Because evil can be used as judgement.

And God is long suffereing. If He weren't we would all be burning in Hell right now.
How would burning in hell be different than being subject to long suffering by God?

If evil can be used as judgement, why can't good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muravyets
Cute. Citing the bible to beat up your opponents, but picking and choosing which parts of it you'll adhere to yourself.

It's called, "do as I say, not as I do.", a concept embraced by American Protestants...

..and the favorite tactic of ALL leftists, including those "American Protestants" that wield their "flocks" exactly like most Imams wield their human weaponry.

Oh, I see. Heathens all have it coming, do we? Then why doesn't your god let us have it, then? I suppose you think he's just biding his time. Or maybe this is another thing you think he got wrong. It couldn't possibly be that you are the one who is wrong, and that in fact, heathens do not automatically have any punishment coming to them.

Well, that's not what the Bible says. It says that everyone is deserving of eternal punsihment, heathen or not.

I'm going to be late for class. I'll be back in about an hour and a half.

God's Law.
Which god?

(Remember who you're talking to right now.)

It's only because they want to protect the Gospel.
Against what? Against other people getting it wrong? But how does any one Christian denomination know that they are right and the others are wrong?

And there is peace. I get along with Christians much better than nonChristians, because there is that communion there, even if we disagree on a lot.
I like your definition of peace: You attack other Christians less than you attack non-Christians. :rolleyes:

Seems like they're forgetting the whole "remove the roofbeam from your own eye before you try to get the straw out of your brother's" part of the Bible.

It seems to me that there are many parts of the Bible that some Christians feel free to forget about.

Well, that's not what the Bible says. It says that everyone is deserving of eternal punsihment, heathen or not.
So, then there is no reason to listen to God and his "rules", or do anything that the Bible says because it doesn't matter how good you are, you're screwed anyway.

This is precisely why I hate most religions (editted upon realising that there are good religions out there like Atheism); too many times it says well, you've got to act a certain way then you find out that no matter how much good you try and bring into an otherwise messed up world, yout efforts will go unnoticed because God doesn't give a load of shit about you.

If everyone deserves punishment, then, we might as well live it up, since, it's futile to rob a convenience store when you can rob a bank, get the same punishment but a bigger reward.

Which god?

(Remember who you're talking to right now.)
His precious "God", you know, the one all the whacked-out wank job Christians pray to? Sadly, the same one that the nice, sane Christians pray to...?

God nearly killed my child because her nature is sinful?

why didn't He try to kill you? you also have a sinful nature

or did I actively do something that caused God to nearly kill my child?

I prefer to believe that she has an abnormality on one of her chromosomes that causes this disorder.

I am mostly past it, until one of them starts to speak for us and says things like the nazi's were ordained by God and doing his work as agents of wrath.... then I really have trouble keeping my mouth shut you know?

sure, if you believe in that sort of predestination.

Calling people on their bullshit is not the same as picking holes in their coat. Edwardis's remarks are truly offensive, as well as shallow, self-serving and ignorant. So are his callous, heartless remarks about your child's illness. I wonder just who the hell he thinks he is to make pronouncements about your child's nature and to decide that she had it coming. How egotistical he must be.

It seems to me that there are many parts of the Bible that some Christians feel free to forget about.
Makes things a lot easier on the theologians. I mean, if you think physicists have a hard time coming up with a Grand Unified Theory, they've got nothing on trying to come up with a non-contradictory religion out of the Bible.

It seems to me that there are many parts of the Bible that some Christians feel free to forget about.
That's because those parts don't fit their... agenda.

(I'll be back later! Going out for a while).

If everyone deserves punishment, then, we might as well live it up, since, it's futile to rob a convenience store when you can rob a bank, get the same punishment but a bigger reward.

because through God s unending love and grace we are able to escape the punishment by repenting.

:cool:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwardis
Because evil can be used as judgement.

And God is long suffereing. If He weren't we would all be burning in Hell right now.

How would burning in hell be different than being subject to long suffering by God?

If evil can be used as judgement, why can't good?

I don't understand the first responding sentence ("How would burning in hell.."). Please clarify.

"If evil can be used as judgement, why can't good?"

Good is the "normal" state. Evil is an abberation of "normalcy".

The wages of ALL (and ANY) acts of evil are utter damnation.

BUT,.. using the "get out of jail free" card, since it's impossible to ALWAYS do non-evil (normal good) there must be a provision for "redemption" so as not to make the entire system (morality) meaningless, which is "forgiveness".

( Any moral system that in all cases condemns it's adherants to damnation is utterly meaningless, by definition, as it's a system of "choices" without any "choice". )

But you are not rewarded (by god) for good behavior. You are PRAISED BY *PEOPLE* for good behavior.

That's "people's" job,.. to praise (and punish) BEHAVIOR (action).

God's job is to judge and forgive SOULS (intention).

Yeah, pretty much. My experience with hardcore Calvinists (there are more moderate ones) is that they are a fairly selfish, self-serving bunch, who enjoy watching the human suffering that happens outside their little social circle and congratulating themselves on being on the right side of God, for which they get paid off with whatever they think is of value in their lives. They are not charitable. They are not compassionate. The really extreme ones tend even to oppose medical research and poverty relief efforts because they say it goes against the will of god to help those he has damned. In practical terms, they tend to just want to make sure that the people they think are inferior to themselves, stay that way.

I do not like hardcore Calvinists.

I've been following this thread, alternately in agreement and vague horror at some statements, but I feel, as a Calvinist myself, I should respond to this.

That type of "Hardcore" Calvinist is an improper, unChristian, and flawed understanding of the doctrine. Calvinism is supposed to point more towards "okay, God knows everything already. He's outside of space and time, so he can see, in the end, who has been saved and who has rejected Christ, and therefore ordains those who will be saved and condemns those who will not." We don't know any of that. We don't know who will be receptive of the gospel and who won't be.

It's not supposed to deter us from being compassionate, either. We're all called to be like the Good Samaritan from the Bible, and to follow the Great Commission. In fact, those who sneer and turn their shoulder to horrors and mishaps happening in the world make me furious, because they're propagating nonsense, and they're doing so in such a way (publicly, most often, like those horrible people picketing war funerals with "God hates fags" signs) that makes Christianity in general look terrible.

In general, yes, we have no idea who will be redeemed and who will not. The more moderate form of Calvinism I try to adhere to says that it's part of our nature; the people who get saved are those who are inclined towards that in their nature, prodded by the Spirit; those who aren't are those who do not want it, who are not capable; essentially, those whose "hearts have been hardened."

I guess, in conclusion I should just say that a Calvinist Christian should be just as compassionate and caring as all Christians are called to. I only hope that what I tried to convey in this blurb came out correctly.

It is sad in God's eyes, not bad.

Are you being sarcastic?

Where is death sad in God's eyes. It is sad in human eyes because we feel loss, but God sees gains. Jesus' human side didn't want death and his followers suffered through the loss, but the God side saw this death as a success.

Without the Nazi's the Jews would continue to suffer throughout Europe as they had for 1900 years. The Germans tried to humanly solve the "problem" but it was considered a problem in all of the countries of Europe the rest just took less radical means to address the problem. There was no way that England, France and the US would have estblished Israel without the evils of the Nazi's. This could be compared to the book of Job where God allowed suffering for a long term gain of his will.

Humans were rightfully shocked by so much death but God received believers to the house he had prepared for them.

Of course not. But that's why it's our responsibility to show each other our errors.

Then you should take a look at your errors, which have been pointed out to you here.

....I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?

I have had similar feelings before, but not the exact same experience. I would disagree with the poster who dismissed your feelings as adrenalin-fueled militancy. As an activist, I remember that feeling from my teenage years, and it does not sound like what you have described here. Perhaps the initial anger was like that, but you are focusing on the subsequent feeling of catharsis and ecstasy. I think I have experienced that too. A purity and simplicity before god. An awareness that god is real and part of your daily life.

Perhaps it seems more powerful for you because of the radical change in attitude that you underwent. The contrast between the two emotional states may have made each emotion stronger.

Sorry for answering your OP and ignoring all the debate in the thread.:)

This is precisely why I hate most religions (editted upon realising that there are good religions out there like Atheism); too many times it says well, you've got to act a certain way then you find out that no matter how much good you try and bring into an otherwise messed up world, yout efforts will go unnoticed because God doesn't give a load of shit about you.

My religion has just two rules. Love God, Love all else.

If you love all else, you will automatically do good out of that love. It isn't the actions that God sees but the love that caused those actions. It is the cause that is important, not the effect. But if you have the cause, you will get the effect.

I never said that the Nazis are God's angels. I said that God used them. He uses sin all the time. It was a sin to kill a guitless man, yet it is trough Jesus death that we are saved.

And I am not disregarding the horror of the Nazis deeds. They were horrible. But there can still be judgement through the horror. The people who went through all that deserved far worse. You deserve far worse. I deserve far worse. The Nazis deserve far worse.

And I was not saying that my chill is anywhere near equivalent with the suffering of Katrina. I was saying that every suffering is a judgement, big or indescribably small.

I'm sorry, but I'm close to losing my cool with you.

How dare you say that the people who were killed in the Holocaust deserved worse? How dare you make any pronouncements about what anyone deserves? Who do you think you are, that you presume to know the will of your god so thoroughly? My gods are not even omnipotent, and I don't pretend to know their minds. You strutting about this thread telling us all what your god intends for us is one of the most disgusting displays of conceit I have yet seen on this forum.

I'm not even going to comment in detail about the offensive tone of condescension with which you make your ridiculous statements, because I would lose my cool if I did that. But I will go so far as to explain this much to you: A slight chill on a winter's night is NOT a judgment on you from god. Get over your miserable self.

I'd beg to differ the bolded statement. Just because 80%(or whatever the number is) affiliates with Christianity, doesn't mean they are Christians. And no I am not judging anyone, just saying if they are not Christ like, then they really can't be considered Christians.

No true Scottsman...

Satan appears as an angel of light.

Oh, so now Smunkee is following Satan, is she? You are a piece of work*, Ed.


* That's a euphemism.

I'm sorry, but I'm close to losing my cool with you.

How dare you say that the people who were killed in the Holocaust deserved worse? How dare you make any pronouncements about what anyone deserves? Who do you think you are, that you presume to know the will of your god so thoroughly? My gods are not even omnipotent, and I don't pretend to know their minds. You strutting about this thread telling us all what your god intends for us is one of the most disgusting displays of conceit I have yet seen on this forum.

I'm not even going to comment in detail about the offensive tone of condescension with which you make your ridiculous statements, because I would lose my cool if I did that. But I will go so far as to explain this much to you: A slight chill on a winter's night is NOT a judgment on you from god. Get over your miserable self.

Oh, don't bother. Edwardis is a conceited bastard who refuses to listen to reason or even his own faith.

Well I'm sorry you had those experiences with those hypocrites. They go against what true Calvinism stands for.

I was describing you.

Well, that's not what the Bible says. It says that everyone is deserving of eternal punsihment, heathen or not.

I'm going to be late for class. I'll be back in about an hour and a half.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

I've been following this thread, alternately in agreement and vague horror at some statements, but I feel, as a Calvinist myself, I should respond to this.

That type of "Hardcore" Calvinist is an improper, unChristian, and flawed understanding of the doctrine. Calvinism is supposed to point more towards "okay, God knows everything already. He's outside of space and time, so he can see, in the end, who has been saved and who has rejected Christ, and therefore ordains those who will be saved and condemns those who will not." We don't know any of that. We don't know who will be receptive of the gospel and who won't be.

It's not supposed to deter us from being compassionate, either. We're all called to be like the Good Samaritan from the Bible, and to follow the Great Commission. In fact, those who sneer and turn their shoulder to horrors and mishaps happening in the world make me furious, because they're propagating nonsense, and they're doing so in such a way (publicly, most often, like those horrible people picketing war funerals with "God hates fags" signs) that makes Christianity in general look terrible.

In general, yes, we have no idea who will be redeemed and who will not. The more moderate form of Calvinism I try to adhere to says that it's part of our nature; the people who get saved are those who are inclined towards that in their nature, prodded by the Spirit; those who aren't are those who do not want it, who are not capable; essentially, those whose "hearts have been hardened."

I guess, in conclusion I should just say that a Calvinist Christian should be just as compassionate and caring as all Christians are called to. I only hope that what I tried to convey in this blurb came out correctly.

I was talking about extremists. I described the extremist Calvinists that I have met, have heard reports about from others who have also met some, and who are mentioned in history. I am glad you showed up to show us what moderate, non-crazy Calvinists believe. It just highlights Edwardis's extremism all the more.

For the record, I dislike extremists of all kinds.

No true Scottsman...
it's a falicy but it's sometimes true.

Oh, so now Smunkee is following Satan, is she? You are a piece of work*, Ed.


* That's a euphemism.
of course I am, don't you know? I read the Bible study it, pray about it, take it in context.....it's evil, I am supposed to listen to what other people say that God said to them, rather than being still and listening to what God has to say to me.

Oh, don't bother. Edwardis is a conceited bastard who refuses to listen to reason or even his own faith.

You're right. I'm going to go get some lunch.

it's a falicy but it's sometimes true.


of course I am, don't you know? I read the Bible study it, pray about it, take it in context.....it's evil, I am supposed to listen to what other people say that God said to them, rather than being still and listening to what God has to say to me.

Might technically be true in the sense that people who do such things don't understand the meaning of being a Christian, but more likely it's a way to avoid associating himself with people who claim to be of the same faith while still grouping everyone else in the same catagory because they're "Not Christians(tm)".

it's a falicy but it's sometimes true.


of course I am, don't you know? I read the Bible study it, pray about it, take it in context.....it's evil, I am supposed to listen to what other people say that God said to them, rather than being still and listening to what God has to say to me.

From what I have read your ideas sound very Manichaeian, if you have no idea what I'm talking about read this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism)

Might technically be true in the sense that people who do such things don't understand the meaning of being a Christian, but more likely it's a way to avoid associating himself with people who claim to be of the same faith while still grouping everyone else in the same catagory because they're "Not Christians(tm)".

well, yeah.

of course I am, don't you know? I read the Bible study it, pray about it, take it in context.....it's evil, I am supposed to listen to what other people say that God said to them, rather than being still and listening to what God has to say to me.

Oh, I forgot, free will is the steering wheel* the devil uses to drive people along the road to hell. Well, you can ride with me until our paths diverge. ;)

(* And thought is the gas pedal)

I'm sorry, but I'm close to losing my cool with you.

How dare you say that the people who were killed in the Holocaust deserved worse? How dare you make any pronouncements about what anyone deserves? Who do you think you are, that you presume to know the will of your god so thoroughly? My gods are not even omnipotent, and I don't pretend to know their minds. You strutting about this thread telling us all what your god intends for us is one of the most disgusting displays of conceit I have yet seen on this forum.

I'm not even going to comment in detail about the offensive tone of condescension with which you make your ridiculous statements, because I would lose my cool if I did that. But I will go so far as to explain this much to you: A slight chill on a winter's night is NOT a judgment on you from god. Get over your miserable self.


the loathing for humanity expressed in the idea that we all deserve worse than the worse suffering experienced on earth is very disturbing. what kind of god makes crap?

in his great wisdom and power, god made trash when he made people. he knew from the beginning of time that we were mostly all doomed to eternal torment, in fact HE MADE US THAT WAY!. his creation skills are less than those of detroit car makers in 1971. in order to get a few good people into heaven, he made billions and billions of crappy one that he doomed to hell from the beginning of time.

THEN they try to turn it all around on US and blame US for god's design flaws? WE do things that doom us to hell when it was all planned by god all the way back to the big bang?

this is not the god i see in the new testament nor is it the message of jesus.

From what I have read your ideas sound very Manichaeian, if you have no idea what I'm talking about read this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism)

oh, I know what you are talking about, I think everyone has some of it right, and yeah there are def. parralells but they are not on purpose, meaning that I came to these conclusions long before I studied Mani.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwardis
I never said that the Nazis are God's angels. I said that God used them. He uses sin all the time. It was a sin to kill a guitless man, yet it is trough Jesus death that we are saved.

And I am not disregarding the horror of the Nazis deeds. They were horrible. But there can still be judgement through the horror. The people who went through all that deserved far worse. You deserve far worse. I deserve far worse. The Nazis deserve far worse.

And I was not saying that my chill is anywhere near equivalent with the suffering of Katrina. I was saying that every suffering is a judgement, big or indescribably small.


I'm sorry, but I'm close to losing my cool with you.

How dare you say that the people who were killed in the Holocaust deserved worse? How dare you make any pronouncements about what anyone deserves? Who do you think you are, that you presume to know the will of your god so thoroughly?

Calm down. :) The reason he said that is because ANY sin is an automatic expulsion from "heaven" (nearness to god), and that is the "FAR WORSE" that we all (as sinners, ie human beings who CAN'T be good at all times) SHOULD suffer for being sinners.

He's not saying that they did big nasty things of evil for which they should be chucked in to the firey pit for.

He's not acting AS god, and judging their souls. He's simply saying that being taken away from god is what we DESERVE, but which god will never actually do.


My gods are not even omnipotent, and I don't pretend to know their minds. You strutting about this thread telling us all what your god intends for us is one of the most disgusting displays of conceit I have yet seen on this forum.

If "your" god is not "omnipotent", then it is not god. And as such you are a fool and follower of silly goofy thoughts.

As a follower of silly goofy thoughts, your indignation at the opinions of others is amusing at best.


I'm not even going to comment in detail about the offensive tone of condescension with which you make your ridiculous statements, because I would lose my cool if I did that.

So you're going to NOT say what's on your mind because you cant' do it without making a fool of yourself?

Give it a try, buckeroo. :)

Let us decide if you're a fool or not.


But I will go so far as to explain this much to you: A slight chill on a winter's night is NOT a judgment on you from god. Get over your miserable self.

Sure it is!

Getting a chill on a winter's night is god's way of saying (among other things), "You might want to be less foolish and go inside."

That is god's judgement on your intention to remain where it is unheathy to remain.

Sure it is!

Getting a chill on a winter's night is god's way of saying (among other things), "You might want to be less foolish and go inside."

That is god's judgement on your intention to remain where it is unheathy to remain.

...

So people in Siberia should just stay inside. Always. Starving, because they can't hunt because god suggested they stay inside. Dying of thirst because anything they get to drink will most likely be cold and cold is god's way of saying "get away from this".

Right. God damnit.

...

So people in Siberia should just stay inside. Always. Starving, because they can't hunt because god suggested they stay inside. Dying of thirst because anything they get to drink will most likely be cold and cold is god's way of saying "get away from this".

Right. God damnit.

LOL, when I first read that I thought it said Suburbia, haha......makes a completely different point that way.

oh, I know what you are talking about, I think everyone has some of it right, and yeah there are def. parralells but they are not on purpose, meaning that I came to these conclusions long before I studied Mani.

Ah, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that even knows that Manichaeism existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muravyets
I'm sorry, but I'm close to losing my cool with you.

How dare you say that the people who were killed in the Holocaust deserved worse? How dare you make any pronouncements about what anyone deserves? Who do you think you are, that you presume to know the will of your god so thoroughly? My gods are not even omnipotent, and I don't pretend to know their minds. You strutting about this thread telling us all what your god intends for us is one of the most disgusting displays of conceit I have yet seen on this forum.

I'm not even going to comment in detail about the offensive tone of condescension with which you make your ridiculous statements, because I would lose my cool if I did that. But I will go so far as to explain this much to you: A slight chill on a winter's night is NOT a judgment on you from god. Get over your miserable self.


the loathing for humanity expressed in the idea that we all deserve worse than the worse suffering experienced on earth is very disturbing. what kind of god makes crap?

It is not loathing for humanity to admit the reality that humanity can not always be "perfect".


in his great wisdom and power, god made trash when he made people. he knew from the beginning of time that we were mostly all doomed to eternal torment, in fact HE MADE US THAT WAY!. his creation skills are less than those of detroit car makers in 1971. in order to get a few good people into heaven, he made billions and billions of crappy one that he doomed to hell from the beginning of time.

People are not trash. Talk about loathing humanity!

People are doomed to "eternal torment" only if they create that torment themselves and impose it upon themselves.

God's goal is not to "populate heaven" as if it were some video game where the high score wins.

God's goal is to allow humans the chance to realize that everyone was getting into heaven at some point in their lives. Some people realize that fact when they are young. Some people realize it when they are older. Some people realize it only on their deathbed.

But everyone does eventually realize it.


THEN they try to turn it all around on US and blame US for god's design flaws? WE do things that doom us to hell when it was all planned by god all the way back to the big bang?

this is not the god i see in the new testament nor is it the message of jesus.

Hell is only here, on earth.

God does not doom anyone to it. He allows us to experience it, which we all do, and decide for ourselves whether we want to remain in it, fixated on "staying alive at all costs by becoming an AGENT of hell and perpetuating it", or coming to the realization that this "hell" is entirely of our making.

Those who "claw to remain in hell" at the ends of their lives (ie they can not come to grips with their mortality) find, at some point in their dying process, that god has already forgiven them of their sins and that "heaven awaits".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insignificantia

Sure it is!

Getting a chill on a winter's night is god's way of saying (among other things), "You might want to be less foolish and go inside."

That is god's judgement on your intention to remain where it is unheathy to remain.

...

So people in Siberia should just stay inside. Always. Starving, because they can't hunt because god suggested they stay inside. Dying of thirst because anything they get to drink will most likely be cold and cold is god's way of saying "get away from this".

Right. God damnit.

Mightn't "starving" imply another missive from god?

Are you always this lamebrained? How about thinking, just a little, before making a complete idiot of yourself in public.

Or perhaps I misunderstood you. Would you care to clarigy (CLARIFY, that spelling boo-boo was just too good to erase) yourself?

LOL, when I first read that I thought it said Suburbia, haha......makes a completely different point that way.

Hah ha ha ha ha ha..!!

Very good..! :D

Mightn't "starving" imply another missive from god?

Are you always this lamebrained? How about thinking, just a little, before making a complete idiot of yourself in public.

Or perhaps I misunderstood you. Would you care to clarigy (CLARIFY, that spelling boo-boo was just too good to erase) yourself?

The missive being that they should die? Or that they should ignore the cold and take it as a challenge of faith? Or that they should get naked and run amongst the deer?

You can't logically tell me there's only ONE way to interpret anything on earth as a message from god. God could be laughing at us thinking we're idiots - "Your scientists tell you this is just weather, why the hell would you think I made it cold other than for the weather pattern, just to piss you off?"

Talk about being lamebrained.

It is not loathing for humanity to admit the reality that humanity can not always be "perfect".



People are not trash. Talk about loathing humanity!

<snip>



you probably should have read the last sentence of my post. *I* dont believe that people are naturally damned, that god made us trash. i feel that is IMPLIED in the belief that all people deserve eternal damnation.

if i were a believer, which im not, i would believe that god loves us as we are, that he created us to be imperfect, that he LIKES our imperfection, and that he damns no one.

you see God as that kid in the playground holding the magnifying glass over the ants don't you?

No.

How would burning in hell be different than being subject to long suffering by God?

If evil can be used as judgement, why can't good?

Well, why can't it? Because no one deserves pure good, except God.

Which god?

(Remember who you're talking to right now.)


Against what? Against other people getting it wrong? But how does any one Christian denomination know that they are right and the others are wrong?


I like your definition of peace: You attack other Christians less than you attack non-Christians. :rolleyes:

Remember who you are talking to: a Christian. So, God as Christians define Him.

Yes against other people getting it wrong. And they know by faith. That's why it's religion.

So, then there is no reason to listen to God and his "rules", or do anything that the Bible says because it doesn't matter how good you are, you're screwed anyway.

This is precisely why I hate most religions (editted upon realising that there are good religions out there like Atheism); too many times it says well, you've got to act a certain way then you find out that no matter how much good you try and bring into an otherwise messed up world, yout efforts will go unnoticed because God doesn't give a load of shit about you.

If everyone deserves punishment, then, we might as well live it up, since, it's futile to rob a convenience store when you can rob a bank, get the same punishment but a bigger reward.

That's the point. No ones good. We are saved by grace, not our own efforts which are as filthy rags.

God does care about you. But His nature constrains Him to do justice on those who have done wrong, which includes all of us.

Calling people on their bullshit is not the same as picking holes in their coat. Edwardis's remarks are truly offensive, as well as shallow, self-serving and ignorant. So are his callous, heartless remarks about your child's illness. I wonder just who the hell he thinks he is to make pronouncements about your child's nature and to decide that she had it coming. How egotistical he must be.

I am someone entrusted with the Word of God, as all Christians are. It says that all are totally depraved. I said nothing different about Smunkeville's child than I have anyone else.

You are the one is making pronouncements. I am merely repeating what God has said.

I've been following this thread, alternately in agreement and vague horror at some statements, but I feel, as a Calvinist myself, I should respond to this.

That type of "Hardcore" Calvinist is an improper, unChristian, and flawed understanding of the doctrine. Calvinism is supposed to point more towards "okay, God knows everything already. He's outside of space and time, so he can see, in the end, who has been saved and who has rejected Christ, and therefore ordains those who will be saved and condemns those who will not." We don't know any of that. We don't know who will be receptive of the gospel and who won't be.

It's not supposed to deter us from being compassionate, either. We're all called to be like the Good Samaritan from the Bible, and to follow the Great Commission. In fact, those who sneer and turn their shoulder to horrors and mishaps happening in the world make me furious, because they're propagating nonsense, and they're doing so in such a way (publicly, most often, like those horrible people picketing war funerals with "God hates fags" signs) that makes Christianity in general look terrible.

In general, yes, we have no idea who will be redeemed and who will not. The more moderate form of Calvinism I try to adhere to says that it's part of our nature; the people who get saved are those who are inclined towards that in their nature, prodded by the Spirit; those who aren't are those who do not want it, who are not capable; essentially, those whose "hearts have been hardened."

I guess, in conclusion I should just say that a Calvinist Christian should be just as compassionate and caring as all Christians are called to. I only hope that what I tried to convey in this blurb came out correctly.

Why don't you read Instiutes of the Christian Religion or the Westminster Standards, the two greatest summaries of Calvinism. They are totally in opposition to what you are promoting, even in your definition of "hard-core Calvinists"

The problem with an all knowing, all powerful god, and a god of justice who punishes sin and rewards virtue is that they are entirely contradictory ideas.

The fundamental idea of justice is "be punished for the wrong that you did, but be held blameless for the wrong that you did not do"

Or, to put it in simpler terms, for a system to be just, one can not be held accountable for those things that one was not able to control. If I, legally operating my vehicle, hit a oil slick, lose control, and kill someone, I in most fair justice systems can not be held accountable for it. I did not intend to kill, I did not act with reckless disregard for the life that was lost, I did not even deviate from the standard of care associated with normal work.

Though my actions ultimitly caused a death, I acted without intention to take that life, and was unable to prevent it from happening. It was beyond my ability to control it. Thus, I am guilty of no crime. The circumstances were beyond my control, and I acted in no way recklessly or negigently to put myself in that position.

A wrong occured, but it was not my fault. Thus justice requires I not be punished for it.

However, presumably an all knowing god knows exactly what I did, am doing, and will do, and knew it from the very start. Also presumably an all powerful god could have, if that god wanted to, done it differently.

So an all knowing, all powerful god made reality in such a way that I would act in a certain way, and did it knowingly, and intentionally. Given that framework everything, EVERYTHING I do is exactly the way god intended for me to do it, for if not, god would have done it differently.

Thus if god has decided that tomorrow I will rob and murder someone, then tomorrow I will rob and murder someone, and it was not my choice to do otherwise. Since I certainly can not influence god, or alter god's decisions, I have no choice, the events that lead me to rob and murder are entirely beyond my control.

So thus if EVERYTHING I do I do because god wanted me to do it, and I can not disobey god's decision, then I have no control over ANYTHING. Thus the evil I do is not my choice, and I can not chose not to.

Thus any system of justice should require me to be blameless for my actions. I have no control, no free will, I did not chose to commit robbery and murder, god did, and I had no choice but to comply. Yet I in doing so sin, and by sinning I am damned. So I am damned by god for doing what god made me do. And god KNEW I would be damned, knew the whole time.

Thus if I am damned, I had no choice but to be damned, no opportunity for redemption, no chance to not do it. I am redeamed only if god decides that I should be redeamed, and I am damned if god decides I should be damned.

Thus I am punished for actions beyond my control.

That is not justice.

God does care about you. But His nature constrains Him to do justice on those who have done wrong, which includes all of us.

If god is all powerful and all knowing, how can I do anything OTHER than what god wants me to do?

Thus if I do wrong, god wanted me to do wrong.

So I am punished for that which I had no control over.

That is not justice, that is, for lack of a better word, sadism.

Remember who you are talking to: a Christian. So, God as Christians define Him.

Yes against other people getting it wrong. And they know by faith. That's why it's religion.

How can you be sure that your version is correct? What do you have to make your version of belief more factually or historically accurate then say...judaism or islam? Sure there's faith, but what do you have to base your faith on, more than what the other religions have?

I'm sorry, but I'm close to losing my cool with you.

How dare you say that the people who were killed in the Holocaust deserved worse? How dare you make any pronouncements about what anyone deserves? Who do you think you are, that you presume to know the will of your god so thoroughly? My gods are not even omnipotent, and I don't pretend to know their minds. You strutting about this thread telling us all what your god intends for us is one of the most disgusting displays of conceit I have yet seen on this forum.

I'm not even going to comment in detail about the offensive tone of condescension with which you make your ridiculous statements, because I would lose my cool if I did that. But I will go so far as to explain this much to you: A slight chill on a winter's night is NOT a judgment on you from god. Get over your miserable self.

I am not telling you anything of my own thought.

Read the word of God and see that I am only repeating what God has said.

Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." They ate and died. Spiritually, and later physically.

I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Death is earned by our sin. And all but God and the elect angels have sinned. So we all deserve death. Spiritual death. And that is far worse than anything you will experience on this earth.

Oh, so now Smunkee is following Satan, is she? You are a piece of work*, Ed.


* That's a euphemism.

What I meant was that many people, including Christians are so allured by the beauty of an idea that they are not following God, but something of Man which is sure to fall because Man is by nature sinful.

What I meant was that many people, including Christians are so allured by the beauty of an idea that they are...following...something of Man which is sure to fall because Man is by nature sinful.

pssst, who do you think wrote the bible you love quoting so much?

I was describing you.

Well, you would be mistaken. I do not need to give an account of my works to you, but if you saw a record of my service in mercy acts, you would see that that does not apply to me.

Neither do the doctrinal inaccurasies, which while held by some "Calvinists" are rejected as heresy by those who truly understand what they are proclaiming.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

See about 1 page back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insignificantia

Mightn't "starving" imply another missive from god?

Are you always this lamebrained? How about thinking, just a little, before making a complete idiot of yourself in public.

Or perhaps I misunderstood you. Would you care to clarigy (CLARIFY, that spelling boo-boo was just too good to erase) yourself?


The missive being that they should die? Or that they should ignore the cold and take it as a challenge of faith? Or that they should get naked and run amongst the deer?

Any of those are possible. Which would you choose?

My guess would be the fawn-o-philic one. :)


You can't logically tell me there's only ONE way to interpret anything on earth as a message from god.

There is never only one way to interpret anything. Is that what you think I'm saying? Now you're just not being reasonable,.. which should be expected from someone who just wants to be argumentative.


God could be laughing at us thinking we're idiots - "Your scientists tell you this is just weather, why the hell would you think I made it cold other than for the weather pattern, just to piss you off?"

Talk about being lamebrained.

Our scientists (authorities, experts, etc) could tell us that the weather is controlled by small blue humanoids who make cookies on the side.

The question is how we respond to the stimulii of the world.

If it's cold, and we don't want to be cold, one choice is to go inside where it's warmer, thanking god that we have a warm place to go to.

Or,.. we could curse god for making it cold, and tromp inside to the fire in an angry huff, vowing to kick a priest tomorrow for the insult of his vengeful god.

Or,.. we could thank god for this punishment for the grievous sins that we've commited, and stay in the cold to recieve our just reward.

Or,.. we could do any number of things that we clever humans are capable of doing to bring meaning to the world we experience, as is an amazing and profound habit of mankind.

oh sure that annoys me, but also the idea that the pastor felt that he needed to lie to his congregation to perform his own "test of their faith" it just makes me sick.

LOL

Really now?
Reminds me of the story of the pastor who felt his flock was becoming a mite too lax about their Bible reading. After finishing his lesson, he as usual informed the flock that he would be doing the next lesson from Matthew Chap. 31. The next Sunday, before starting the lesson, he asked "Who read the selection for today's lesson?" Many people raised their hands. He said, "That's interesting, since there IS no Matthew Chap. 31. I will now proceed with today's lesson on lying."


Since its pretty easy to be a Christian in America, I think its good to get an occasional reminder that not everyone has such luck. And I'm sure God wasn't horribly offended by a little trick that built up the congregation.

If god is all powerful and all knowing, how can I do anything OTHER than what god wants me to do?

Thus if I do wrong, god wanted me to do wrong.

So I am punished for that which I had no control over.

That is not justice, that is, for lack of a better word, sadism.

That is the part of the relationship which is not revealed to us. What you do, you want to do. But what you do was also ordained by God. Maybe God sets it up so that you will beleive that there is no other alternative and make the choice He wants you to, I don't know, Scripture doesn't tell us.

But God is not forcing you to do anything. You want to do what you do. And so you are punished for doing what you do.

you probably should have read the last sentence of my post. *I* dont believe that people are naturally damned, that god made us trash. i feel that is IMPLIED in the belief that all people deserve eternal damnation.

Oops. Sorry I missed that,.. but now you know about what I'm thinking about, so we both win. :)

I can't abide the concept of eternal ANYTHING (with the singular exception of "the eternal"), so I can't accept eternal damnation, and will let you know why I feel that way.

Good to hear you think along similar lines.


if i were a believer, which im not, i would believe that god loves us as we are, that he created us to be imperfect, that he LIKES our imperfection, and that he damns no one.

Uh,.. you are a believer, if your "would" (hypothetically) hold those beliefs. :)

You've gotten it spot on.

The question is, WHY "would" you believe that?

How can you be sure that your version is correct? What do you have to make your version of belief more factually or historically accurate then say...judaism or islam? Sure there's faith, but what do you have to base your faith on, more than what the other religions have?

Nothing. Even with all the evidence I could give you about history and archaeology, etc. it would still come down to faith.

he as usual informed the flock that he would be doing the next lesson from Matthew Chap. 31... He said, "That's interesting, since there IS no Matthew Chap. 31. I will now proceed with today's lesson on lying."



Pretty much the same thing, both of their religious figures lied to them. Funny how when that "naughty, lax, sinful congregation" lies that's an affront to god that needs to be admonished and disciplined.

But when the priest does it, well that's just a righteous test of their faith.

LOL

Really now?
Reminds me of the story of the pastor who felt his flock was becoming a mite too lax about their Bible reading. After finishing his lesson, he as usual informed the flock that he would be doing the next lesson from Matthew Chap. 31. The next Sunday, before starting the lesson, he asked "Who read the selection for today's lesson?" Many people raised their hands. He said, "That's interesting, since there IS no Matthew Chap. 31. I will now proceed with today's lesson on lying."


Since its pretty easy to be a Christian in America, I think its good to get an occasional reminder that not everyone has such luck. And I'm sure God wasn't horribly offended by a little trick that built up the congregation.
it is easier to appear to be a Christian in America, but appearances are not what Christianity is about.

Oh, bloody hell. The University fucked it up, you shouldn't be the ones paying for it.

Exactly. Reminds me of the school in England this summer that suddenly discovered, after the kids had rehearsed for weeks, that they were performing Lennon's Imagine, and banned it. A little more organization would avoid this kind of crap. And yeah, the pastor was just a teensy bit manipulative.

pssst, who do you think wrote the bible you love quoting so much?

If God cared enough to tell us, He would care enough to make sure it remained intact. And so the Holy Spirit divinely inspired the writers of the Bible so that they could write no error. But, because it came from God, it is not only inerrant (without error) but also infallible (not capable of having error).

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:




At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?
Great example of why I am NOT going to a public university, Christendom is my number one choice right now

What I meant was that many people, including Christians are so allured by the beauty of an idea that they are not following God, but something of Man which is sure to fall because Man is by nature sinful.

yes, and wouldn't it be just like Satan to distract a large majority of Christians from the real battle with superficial things?

If God cared enough to tell us, He would care enough to make sure it remained intact. And so the Holy Spirit divinely inspired the writers of the Bible so that they could write no error. But, because it came from God, it is not only inerrant (without error) but also infallible (not capable of having error).

and which of the many translations of the bible did god inspire to be inerrant and infallible? id hate to choose the wrong one.

yes, and wouldn't it be just like Satan to distract a large majority of Christians from the real battle with superficial things?

Yes. *said with questioning glance*

But God is not forcing you to do anything. You want to do what you do. And so you are punished for doing what you do.

Incorrect.

God made the universe, god set out the universe, god made everything that has, is, and will ever happen happen in JUST that way. God knows everything, and everything happens the way god knew it would, the way god made it happen.

I don't do what i want to do, I do what god makes me do. I have no control, I have no ability to reject, I have no ability to prevent the actions that god has ordained.

God forces me to do what I do by the mere fact of creating the universe in such a way that requires me to do so.

Cause and effect theory. Everything that happens, happens in that way because of the preceding cause, which is itself brought about by its own cause, all the way back to the initial creation.

Thus simply BY creating the universe, god set up everything that happened after. I do what I do because of the way I am, which is made up of a whole series of causes before hand, which themselves caused, all the way back. God knew EXACTLY how I would turn out, EXACTLY what I would do, and EXACTLY how I would sin, right at the start. And in creating the universe this way left me with NO choice but to do it. Thus I have no control over it. God made me do it.

Thus I am punished for that which I had no control over.

That is the logical conclusion of what you say.

Nothing. Even with all the evidence I could give you about history and archaeology, etc. it would still come down to faith.

Not true at all. God can be proved through reason alone.

and which of the many translations of the bible did god inspire to be inerrant and infallible? id hate to choose the wrong one.

Most translations are equal. Some are horrible and actually change things. But there is always on which is the most correct to the original. Which one? That is debateable. Which is why you compare them and see: Translation A said this and Translation B said this. Ask someone who knows the original languages or look at other translations. Most are good about saying this is an alternate translation for this word. The essence is always the same though, even in the horrible translations. It's only when you geet into word studies (What does the Bible say about love?) that it becomes a problem.

Incorrect.

God made the universe, god set out the universe, god made everything that has, is, and will ever happen happen in JUST that way. God knows everything, and everything happens the way god knew it would, the way god made it happen.

I don't do what i want to do, I do what god makes me do. I have no control, I have no ability to reject, I have no ability to prevent the actions that god has ordained.

God forces me to do what I do by the mere fact of creating the universe in such a way that requires me to do so.

Cause and effect theory. Everything that happens, happens in that way because of the preceding cause, which is itself brought about by its own cause, all the way back to the initial creation.

Thus simply BY creating the universe, god set up everything that happened after. I do what I do because of the way I am, which is made up of a whole series of causes before hand, which themselves caused, all the way back. God knew EXACTLY how I would turn out, EXACTLY what I would do, and EXACTLY how I would sin, right at the start. And in creating the universe this way left me with NO choice but to do it. Thus I have no control over it. God made me do it.

Thus I am punished for that which I had no control over.

That is the logical conclusion of what you say.
God CREATED the universe, yes. But does He control every aspect of our lives? No He does not. If you did not have free will, then how are you able to doubt Him? Would not He have made it so that all believed in His truth and followed Him? Oh, and God knows how we will choose, but I find Star Wars to have the best quote here, "Always in motion the future is"

Yes. *said with questioning glance*

you worry so much about what people say to you, what the government does or doesn't do to support your walk, what other people think, what other people believe.....when does that leave time for you and God? The real battle of a Christian has nothing to do with your friends, your church, your family, your government, you school, or any of that stuff.

Not true at all. God can be proved through reason alone.

Well, prove it to me then. Even though I am a Christian, I disagree with you on this point.

Exactly. Reminds me of the school in England this summer that suddenly discovered, after the kids had rehearsed for weeks, that they were performing Lennon's Imagine, and banned it. A little more organization would avoid this kind of crap. And yeah, the pastor was just a teensy bit manipulative.

Hi, read:

After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship

The university didn't do a thing. It was entirely the pastor making it up.

Pretty much the same thing, both of their religious figures lied to them. Funny how when that "naughty, lax, sinful congregation" lies that's an affront to god that needs to be admonished and disciplined.

But when the priest does it, well that's just a righteous test of their faith.

Oh come now. You act if you don't lie. For instance, I have done "good deeds" before, and lied so the person wouldn't know it was me. Why? Because I don't want them to know I did it. Then they'd think they owe me. Calling someone out, or merely letting a person see how they would respond to persecution is doing them a favor. I have a feeling your position on this does not continue to all lies. Just the ones you don't like. I'm also guessing you would have been one of the ones who raised their hands. How can you judge your own growth without being tested once in a while. Since you are not blameless, nor do you know anyone who is, who are you to condemn a pastor for committing a sin?

Casting the first stone? Recognize that? The fact that this offends you so much really just reveals your own insecurities.

The problem with an all knowing, all powerful god, and a god of justice who punishes sin and rewards virtue is that they are entirely contradictory ideas.

That is why god can't punish sin, which he does not do.

God leaves it to "the world" to punish behavior.

God only rewards non-sin, and that reward is being near him at the time of non-sin.

God NEVER punishes. That is left to his creation, which is the world, which is the PURPOSE of it's creation.


The fundamental idea of justice is "be punished for the wrong that you did, but be held blameless for the wrong that you did not do"

Or, to put it in simpler terms, for a system to be just, one can not be held accountable for those things that one was not able to control. If I, legally operating my vehicle, hit a oil slick, lose control, and kill someone, I in most fair justice systems can not be held accountable for it. I did not intend to kill, I did not act with reckless disregard for the life that was lost, I did not even deviate from the standard of care associated with normal work.

Though my actions ultimitly caused a death, I acted without intention to take that life, and was unable to prevent it from happening. It was beyond my ability to control it. Thus, I am guilty of no crime. The circumstances were beyond my control, and I acted in no way recklessly or negigently to put myself in that position.

A wrong occured, but it was not my fault. Thus justice requires I not be punished for it.

However, presumably an all knowing god knows exactly what I did, am doing, and will do, and knew it from the very start. Also presumably an all powerful god could have, if that god wanted to, done it differently.

So an all knowing, all powerful god made reality in such a way that I would act in a certain way, and did it knowingly, and intentionally. Given that framework everything, EVERYTHING I do is exactly the way god intended for me to do it, for if not, god would have done it differently.

Which is precisely WHY god does not EVER punish.

HE CAN'T. That is the reason the world exists. As a vehicle of "correction" (aka punishment).

You are simply wrong that god ever punishes anyone.


Thus if god has decided that tomorrow I will rob and murder someone, then tomorrow I will rob and murder someone, and it was not my choice to do otherwise. Since I certainly can not influence god, or alter god's decisions, I have no choice, the events that lead me to rob and murder are entirely beyond my control.

So thus if EVERYTHING I do I do because god wanted me to do it, and I can not disobey god's decision, then I have no control over ANYTHING. Thus the evil I do is not my choice, and I can not chose not to.

Thus any system of justice should require me to be blameless for my actions. I have no control, no free will, I did not chose to commit robbery and murder, god did, and I had no choice but to comply. Yet I in doing so sin, and by sinning I am damned. So I am damned by god for doing what god made me do. And god KNEW I would be damned, knew the whole time.

Thus if I am damned, I had no choice but to be damned, no opportunity for redemption, no chance to not do it. I am redeamed only if god decides that I should be redeamed, and I am damned if god decides I should be damned.

Thus I am punished for actions beyond my control.

That is not justice.

God does not punish.

Justice is delivered by "the world".

You are not damned, ever, except insomuch as you damn yourself.

But in the end, or whenever it is that you come to the realization, you are forgiven your sins and allowed to be near god.

What sin you've done that hasn't SEEMED to have been punished by the world, actually has, but in ways that render those punishments invisible to those with nagging doubts that "the bad guy got away with it".

The bad guy never gets away with it.

"...mysterious ways."

Well, prove it to me then. Even though I am a Christian, I disagree with you on this point.

Gladly. There are several arguments, but my favortie is the logical device called Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor states that the simplest solution is always the best. Consider the following, If there was no God, then how is there order throughout the universe? The Big Bang does not explain this. Chaos (Big Bang) does not create order (the current universe). Since the simplest solution is the best, then is it not more certaint that God created all, rather then the 1 in 1 billion chance that the Big Bang and evolution led to our current universe?

Most translations are equal. Some are horrible and actually change things. But there is always on which is the most correct to the original. Which one? That is debateable. Which is why you compare them and see: Translation A said this and Translation B said this. Ask someone who knows the original languages or look at other translations. Most are good about saying this is an alternate translation for this word. The essence is always the same though, even in the horrible translations. It's only when you geet into word studies (What does the Bible say about love?) that it becomes a problem.

how can they all be inerrant and infallible? they dont even have all the same books in them!

God CREATED the universe, yes. But does He control every aspect of our lives? No He does not. If you did not have free will, then how are you able to doubt Him?

five posibilities:

1) God is not all knowing, thus does not know what i believe

2) God is not all powerful, thus can not change my belief

3) God is not a dispenser of justice, thus does not care what I believe

4) God does not create predestination, thus allows me to believe as I will, though I may be punished

The fifth should be so self evident that it needs not be mentioned.

Predestination and an idea of a just god can NOT coexist.

Hi, read:



The university didn't do a thing. It was entirely the pastor making it up.

Oh, sorry, missed that little detail. A test of faith? Meh.

five posibilities:

1) God is not all knowing, thus does not know what i believe

2) God is not all powerful, thus can not change my belief

3) God is not a dispenser of justice, thus does not care what I believe

4) God does not create predestination, thus allows me to believe as I will, though I may be punished

The fifth should be so self evident that it needs not be mentioned.

Predestination and an idea of a just god can NOT coexist.
You are correct on 4 and 5. Predestination is just another worthless Protestant idea created by a moronic minister who was woried his own actions would damn him. If God is not all knowing, prove it. If He is not all powerful, prove it. He IS indeed a dispenser of justice, as if He created laws what good would they be if He did not deal justice to enforce said laws?

Oh come now. You act if you don't lie. Casting the first stone? Recognize that? The fact that this offends you so much really just reveals your own insecurities.

I have lied, many times. I however do not draw a paycheck nor make it my position of employment to tell people how god does not want them to lie, and I do not manipulate people into being shamed because of how they manipulate.

Hypocracy exists, I accept that in myself and others. I do not use hypocracy however to show why one should not be a hypocrite.

Since you are so enjoying throwing out cliches, let me throw one back at you.

"lead by example".

Oh come now. You act if you don't lie. For instance, I have done "good deeds" before, and lied so the person wouldn't know it was me. Why? Because I don't want them to know I did it. Then they'd think they owe me. Calling someone out, or merely letting a person see how they would respond to persecution is doing them a favor. I have a feeling your position on this does not continue to all lies. Just the ones you don't like. I'm also guessing you would have been one of the ones who raised their hands. How can you judge your own growth without being tested once in a while. Since you are not blameless, nor do you know anyone who is, who are you to condemn a pastor for committing a sin?

Casting the first stone? Recognize that? The fact that this offends you so much really just reveals your own insecurities.

I don't agree that it was a test of faith, I think it was emotional manipulation.

five posibilities:

1) God is not all knowing, thus does not know what i believe

2) God is not all powerful, thus can not change my belief

3) God is not a dispenser of justice, thus does not care what I believe

4) God does not create predestination, thus allows me to believe as I will, though I may be punished

The fifth should be so self evident that it needs not be mentioned.

Predestination and an idea of a just god can NOT coexist.

He knows what you will do, and he could change it, but he will allow you to make your own choices because he wishes you to follow him freely and with a glad heart, not forcibly. Thus, he will watch you make your mistakes, and if you die without coming to him, he will dispense with justice, leaving you to your punishment, which is an eternity without him, just as you lived a life without him.

Predestination is garbage, and exists only so people can remove any responsibility from their shoulders.

How is losing your place of worship a danger? You can worship anywhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Giuldor
God CREATED the universe, yes. But does He control every aspect of our lives? No He does not. If you did not have free will, then how are you able to doubt Him?

five posibilities:

1) God is not all knowing, thus does not know what i believe

2) God is not all powerful, thus can not change my belief

3) God is not a dispenser of justice, thus does not care what I believe

4) God does not create predestination, thus allows me to believe as I will, though I may be punished

The fifth should be so self evident that it needs not be mentioned.

Predestination and an idea of a just god can NOT coexist.

Predestination is equivalent to Non-predestination at the "end of the story".

Why is predestination important to you?

Is predestination a prerequisite to believing in god?

Your argument (point #5) sounds like "God does not exist."

If that is your belief, may that work for you, but I can just as easily say "God does exist." and define things such that I am justified.

If you have no god, then there's no need to posit a "just" god.

If I have a just god, then let me tell you how he is just.

That way, we both learn something, and your zealous need to convert others to your religion by violence is stifled.

I don't agree that it was a test of faith, I think it was emotional manipulation.

And such a terrible thing. However, it served to build faith. Those people felt stronger afterwards than they did before. In no way do I see a negative side. And since any religious service manipulates the emotions of the people in attendance, inspiring awe, sorrow, joy, love, etc. at differents moments in the sermon, I see no real difference.

Step outside the box, and look at the big picture.

He knows what you will do, and he could change it, but he will allow you to make your own choices because he wishes you to follow him freely and with a glad heart, not forcibly. Thus, he will watch you make your mistakes, and if you die without coming to him, he will dispense with justice, leaving you to your punishment, which is an eternity without him, just as you lived a life without him.

So god knows what I will do, long before i even exist, knows exactly what i will do, and can stop me from being damned, but choses to let me be damned.

It is entirely within god's power to save me, yet lets me be damned. So then god is not all merciful.



Predestination is garbage, and exists only so people can remove any responsibility from their shoulders.

I think predestination, being that "we do this because god wanted us to" is no more, or less valid than any other belief. it is...possible. However the concept of god of predestination and a god of justice are inherently contradictory.

you worry so much about what people say to you, what the government does or doesn't do to support your walk, what other people think, what other people believe.....when does that leave time for you and God? The real battle of a Christian has nothing to do with your friends, your church, your family, your government, you school, or any of that stuff.

No, you are correct. My walk is not affected by any of these things. But I am to still spread the Gospel.

"For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete." 2 Corinthians 10:4-6

I have lied, many times. I however do not draw a paycheck nor make it my position of employment to tell people how god does not want them to lie, and I do not manipulate people into being shamed because of how they manipulate.

That (in bold) may be a statement of fact, but is it good behavior?

I would think that bringing shame upon the shameful is a good corrective tactic.

Incorrect.

God made the universe, god set out the universe, god made everything that has, is, and will ever happen happen in JUST that way. God knows everything, and everything happens the way god knew it would, the way god made it happen.

I don't do what i want to do, I do what god makes me do. I have no control, I have no ability to reject, I have no ability to prevent the actions that god has ordained.

God forces me to do what I do by the mere fact of creating the universe in such a way that requires me to do so.

Cause and effect theory. Everything that happens, happens in that way because of the preceding cause, which is itself brought about by its own cause, all the way back to the initial creation.

Thus simply BY creating the universe, god set up everything that happened after. I do what I do because of the way I am, which is made up of a whole series of causes before hand, which themselves caused, all the way back. God knew EXACTLY how I would turn out, EXACTLY what I would do, and EXACTLY how I would sin, right at the start. And in creating the universe this way left me with NO choice but to do it. Thus I have no control over it. God made me do it.

Thus I am punished for that which I had no control over.

That is the logical conclusion of what you say.

Well then, you are not listening to what I am saying.

You naturally want that which is contrart to God. So do I. So we do that which is evil on our own. So we are judged for our actions justly.

I have lied, many times. I however do not draw a paycheck nor make it my position of employment to tell people how god does not want them to lie, and I do not manipulate people into being shamed because of how they manipulate.

Hypocracy exists, I accept that in myself and others. I do not use hypocracy however to show why one should not be a hypocrite.

Since you are so enjoying throwing out cliches, let me throw one back at you.

"lead by example".

See my response to Smunkee. Childish tantrums in the face of being tricked are not what I would call Christian. An inability to see the benefit from a completely harmless lie, one that did no damage to anyone present, is just plain close-minded.

As far as "leading by example" goes, first, we would have to agree that any lie is a bad lie. And we don't.

Little white lies, living in compromise. As long as that pastor asks for forgiveness for tricking his flock, his only judge is God. Not you.

Gladly. There are several arguments, but my favortie is the logical device called Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor states that the simplest solution is always the best. Consider the following, If there was no God, then how is there order throughout the universe? The Big Bang does not explain this. Chaos (Big Bang) does not create order (the current universe). Since the simplest solution is the best, then is it not more certaint that God created all, rather then the 1 in 1 billion chance that the Big Bang and evolution led to our current universe?

Umm, no. If something is proven it cannot be argued against. I agree with your argument completely. But you didn't prove anything, because there are some people who could agrue against this quite rationally.

Predestination is equivalent to Non-predestination at the "end of the story".

Why is predestination important to you?

Is predestination a prerequisite to believing in god?

Your argument (point #5) sounds like "God does not exist."

If that is your belief, may that work for you, but I can just as easily say "God does exist." and define things such that I am justified.

If you have no god, then there's no need to posit a "just" god.

If I have a just god, then let me tell you how he is just.

That way, we both learn something, and your zealous need to convert others to your religion by violence is stifled.

I bring in predestination only because the conversation shifted that. There are those who will speak of a just god and yet speak of predestination at the same time. I speak only to refute the idea that god can be just, yet our actions predestined, at the same time.

God may, or may not, be just. I have no way of knowing. God may well be a sadist who delights in our suffering for all I know. But I merely, for those purposes, state that there can not be a god of justice while at the same time be predestination. Whether god is just, or whether there is predestination, I have no way of knowing.

But the argument that it is both can not logically exist.

how can they all be inerrant and infallible? they dont even have all the same books in them!

They all have the Old and New Testaments. The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics have added the Apocrypha which are not inspired. But that is part of their growing apostasy.

So god knows what I will do, long before i even exist, knows exactly what i will do, and can stop me from being damned, but choses to let me be damned.

It is entirely within god's power to save me, yet lets me be damned. So then god is not all merciful.

I think predestination, being that "we do this because god wanted us to" is no more, or less valid than any other belief. it is...possible. However the concept of god of predestination and a god of justice are inherently contradictory.

Anyone who claims that God is a God of mercy is a fool. God will forgive you for any sin, save that of blasphemy. See what happened to the Israelites when they had Aaron create a golden calf as an idol while Moses was receiving the Ten Commandments. God is just, and that means at times there must be punishment. God is like any parent, loving you even when they have to punish you.

That (in bold) may be a statement of fact, but is it good behavior?

I would think that bringing shame upon the shameful is a good corrective tactic.

Read the full thing. Bringing shame to the shameful is different then using a lie to say how lying is wrong. What I said was: I do not manipulate people into being shamed because of how they manipulate

There is nothing hypocritical about shaming a shameful action. It is fine to say that lying is bad. It is hypocritical to demonstrate how lying is bad, by lying.. Did you not just commit the act which you attack?

Anyone who claims that God is a God of mercy is a fool. God will forgive you for any sin, save that of blasphemy. See what happened to the Israelites when they had Aaron create a golden calf as an idol while Moses was receiving the Ten Commandments. God is just, and that means at times there must be punishment. God is like any parent, loving you even when they have to punish you.

Did God blast you yet? No, even though you deserved to be blasted the moment you were conceived because you are sinful by nature. So God is merciful: He is not giving you punishment you deserve.

They all have the Old and New Testaments. The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics have added the Apocrypha which are not inspired. But that is part of their growing apostasy.

And I'm quite sure that you are following all of the teachings of the bible, including the Book of Leviticus which says that all crimes from Homosexuality to disrespecting your parents should be punished with death with no chance for an appeal.

Any of those are possible. Which would you choose?

My guess would be the fawn-o-philic one. :)



There is never only one way to interpret anything. Is that what you think I'm saying? Now you're just not being reasonable,.. which should be expected from someone who just wants to be argumentative.



Our scientists (authorities, experts, etc) could tell us that the weather is controlled by small blue humanoids who make cookies on the side.

The question is how we respond to the stimulii of the world.

If it's cold, and we don't want to be cold, one choice is to go inside where it's warmer, thanking god that we have a warm place to go to.

Or,.. we could curse god for making it cold, and tromp inside to the fire in an angry huff, vowing to kick a priest tomorrow for the insult of his vengeful god.

Or,.. we could thank god for this punishment for the grievous sins that we've commited, and stay in the cold to recieve our just reward.

Or,.. we could do any number of things that we clever humans are capable of doing to bring meaning to the world we experience, as is an amazing and profound habit of mankind.

Any of those conclusions is possible, yes, which is why you can never say "God said this" or "God said that" and especially not "God MEANT this" or "God MEANT that", because -you do not know-. In the aspect of god and religion, nobody is above anyone else, because WE ALL HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON IN GOD'S HEAD.

Science would never said blue men are responsible for the weather because there's no proof for such a theory, and that's the difference between religion and science. In religion, you could postulate that little blue men are responsible for something and nobody can contradict you because it's just faith, but with science you have to have PROOF, and logic, and reasoning.

This is why religion has no place in deciding or judging others, because you can never be sure you're any better than them. Never.

Did God blast you yet? No, even though you deserved to be blasted the moment you were conceived because you are sinful by nature. So God is merciful: He is not giving you punishment you deserve.

Because he created him. Why would he blast him as soon as he creates him? Why would he create him to be sinful at all? You make no sense.

And such a terrible thing. However, it served to build faith. Those people felt stronger afterwards than they did before. In no way do I see a negative side. And since any religious service manipulates the emotions of the people in attendance, inspiring awe, sorrow, joy, love, etc. at differents moments in the sermon, I see no real difference.

Step outside the box, and look at the big picture.
false security, false assumptions, and a spirit of rebellion, not faith. Faith is not inspired by lies, and manipulation.

No, you are correct. My walk is not affected by any of these things. But I am to still spread the Gospel.

"For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete." 2 Corinthians 10:4-6
You are not sharing the gospel.

And I'm quite sure that you are following all of the teachings of the bible, including the Book of Leviticus which says that all crimes from Homosexuality to disrespecting your parents should be punished with death with no chance for an appeal.

First, there is appeal. That would be part of determining the charges to be true or not.

Second, I think that homosexual offenders (not homosexuals in general) and rebellios children (those who are old enough to truly rebel, not those who were disobedient for a time) shoud be executed. But that is the civil governments respnsibility, not mine and not the Chuch's.

Because he created him. Why would he blast him as soon as he creates him? Why would he create him to be sinful at all? You make no sense.

He created Him for His glory, which is the only reason anything happens. And God did not make him sinful. He simply is by part of his nature because Man is sinful and he is a Man.

Because he created him. Why would he blast him as soon as he creates him? Why would he create him to be sinful at all? You make no sense.

Now you have hit the root of it, our Edward friend doesn't make sense because his religion doesn't make sense. The reason it doesn't make sense is because his religion isn't connected to reality, it is based on Magical Thinking and quite a bit of Orwellian Doublethink.

What is True becomes Untrue.
That which is real becomes unreal.
Only the Party Is Real.

War is Peace.
Ignorance is Strength.
Freedom is Slavery.

false security, false assumptions, and a spirit of rebellion, not faith. Faith is not inspired by lies, and manipulation.


You are not sharing the gospel.

No, I don't get a chance to because I'm so busy defending all the tertiary stuff that no one will allow me to defend the primary stuff.

They all have the Old and New Testaments. The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics have added the Apocrypha which are not inspired. But that is part of their growing apostasy.

no ed, the orthodox and roman catholic bible came before the protestant bible. they didnt add, the protestants removed, (mostly because those books contain support for catholic/orthodox dogma that protestants reject).

the growing apostacy is on the part of protestants given that the catholic/orthodox churches have more than a thousands years on them.

not that i give a damn about apostacy.

He created Him for His glory, which is the only reason anything happens. And God did not make him sinful. He simply is by part of his nature because Man is sinful and he is a Man.

Man is sinful because god made him that way, otherwise god would have made him a different way, and man would not be sinful. Since he is sinful, god therefore made him to be sinful.

Once again, doublethink rules your mind.

First, there is appeal. That would be part of determining the charges to be true or not.

Second, I think that homosexual offenders (not homosexuals in general) and rebellios children (those who are old enough to truly rebel, not those who were disobedient for a time) shoud be executed. But that is the civil governments respnsibility, not mine and not the Chuch's.

How do you define rebel?

Gladly. There are several arguments, but my favortie is the logical device called Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor states that the simplest solution is always the best.

Well done, I've never managed to find an argument that's flawed in the first point before. Congratulations.

Consider the following, If there was no God, then how is there order throughout the universe? The Big Bang does not explain this.Chaos (Big Bang) does not create order (the current universe). Since the simplest solution is the best, then is it not more certaint that God created all, rather then the 1 in 1 billion chance that the Big Bang and evolution led to our current universe?

Who said the Big Bang was chaos? In terms of relativity, the big bang would be 'order' and the current universe disorder. So there!

Did God blast you yet? No, even though you deserved to be blasted the moment you were conceived because you are sinful by nature. So God is merciful: He is not giving you punishment you deserve.

Did I deserve to get "blasted", not for anything I did, but simply because my distant ancestors ate an apple? That's one of my problems with Christianity.

no ed, the orthodox and roman catholic bible came before the protestant bible. they didnt add, the protestants removed, (mostly because those books contain support for catholic/orthodox dogma that protestants reject).

the growing apostacy is on the part of protestants given that the catholic/orthodox churches have more than a thousands years on them.

not that i give a damn about apostacy.

No. The original Bible did not contain the Apocrypha. So the Protestants were restoring the original.

The Protestants left because of the apostacy, though many of them are falling apostate now also.

Wow, talk about harsh. Frankly I'd like to take a moment to congratulate Zilam and his Union for standing up for their faith that way. Who cares if it wasn't true? Who cares if the pastor made it up? The point is that they found in themselves a strength they wouldn't otherwise have known, and grew that closer to God.

No, it didn't.

The Pastor created a fake enemy to anger his flock into doing his bidding.

It's what Hitler used to do. It is not a good thing. They were not feeling the spirit of God. They were feeling pride and anger. Two deadly sins. The Pastor was "bearing false witness against his neighbor."

This is a completly unchristian story. That sort of "Christian" justly ends up parodies as the villain in a horror movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthais101
five posibilities:

1) God is not all knowing, thus does not know what i believe

2) God is not all powerful, thus can not change my belief

3) God is not a dispenser of justice, thus does not care what I believe

4) God does not create predestination, thus allows me to believe as I will, though I may be punished

The fifth should be so self evident that it needs not be mentioned.

Predestination and an idea of a just god can NOT coexist.


He knows what you will do, and he could change it, but he will allow you to make your own choices because he wishes you to follow him freely and with a glad heart, not forcibly. Thus, he will watch you make your mistakes, and if you die without coming to him, he will dispense with justice, leaving you to your punishment, which is an eternity without him, just as you lived a life without him.

Why is "dying" the magical boundary line after which you are either saved or damned?

My opinion: It isn't.

God does not punish. Ever. He only rewards. The world is his only instrument of "instruction" (further correction, incentive, "punishment", etc) to humanity.

If god never punishes, and only his creation (the world) punishes, once we "leave this world" we are no longer in the realm of "punishment". It (the concept of punishment) simply ceases to exist.

But are the evil punished if they "get away with it" and die..?

Yes. Because "getting away with it" is inherently impossible, because god would not allow it, in balance for his never being able to punish.

You'll say this is circular logic. You'd be right.

But god does not have to abide by your logic, as his realm is illogical to the human mind,.. that is why there exists faith.

But what good is a god that is illogical?

Simply as a counterbalance to "the world", his creation created to instruct us in how to behave with each other.

The goal of all creation is the instruction of human beings in how to behave with one another.

And that reason for the existence of existence is as valid as ANY OTHER RATIONALE that any person can give, because it's not really a sensibly ponderable question (why existence exists).

So, you who believe that all is chaos, and existence only exists because it just had to, or other rationalizations, the only question to this existential question is:

Why are you asking this question? What NEED do you have for an "answer"?

No, I don't get a chance to because I'm so busy defending all the tertiary stuff that no one will allow me to defend the primary stuff.

because you are easily distracted by the superficial.

Just a question.

Why am I being called Ed?

I don't mind it, I just didn't expect it.

because you are easily distracted by the superficial.

Because I defend Scriputre fully. I don't say "Well, that's not important to salvation, so think what you want."

Not that you do that.

Just a question.

Why am I being called Ed?

I don't mind it, I just didn't expect it.

Because Ed means six letters less effort.:p

Did God blast you yet? No, even though you deserved to be blasted the moment you were conceived because you are sinful by nature. So God is merciful: He is not giving you punishment you deserve.

Give it up Eddie. No one's buying that line of crap. It's not merciful to only kill some of the people you decided to create "pre-damned." Setting people up to be damned from the moment they were born with no hope of ever finding salvation is unmerciful however finely you slice the hair. It's on par with creating those clones from that Jude Law movie "The Island."

Just a question.

Why am I being called Ed?

I don't mind it, I just didn't expect it.

it's the easiest place to make a break, Edward is just about as long as Edwardis, and any other place to break seems wrong because it would look bad (Edw, Edwa, Edwar)

lots of people call me Smunk, it's to save time.

First, there is appeal. That would be part of determining the charges to be true or not.

Second, I think that homosexual offenders (not homosexuals in general) and rebellios children (those who are old enough to truly rebel, not those who were disobedient for a time) shoud be executed. But that is the civil governments respnsibility, not mine and not the Chuch's.

that doesnt seem a little bit crazy to you?

it would solve the population problem since few teens manage to get through adolescence without any rebellion.

Man is sinful because god made him that way, otherwise god would have made him a different way, and man would not be sinful. Since he is sinful, god therefore made him to be sinful.

Once again, doublethink rules your mind.

God gave Man free will, which is not the same as free agency. Free agency = free choice. God gave Man both. Man sinned and lost free will. His will is bound to sin: that's the only thing he wants. So he still has the ability to choose (free agency) but he will always choose sin, because his will is no longer free.

So God did not make anyone sinful.

Because I defend Scriputre fully. I don't say "Well, that's not important to salvation, so think what you want."

Not that you do that.

but you don't even defend it well, you end up talking about how Nazi's were God's agents of wrath.....

So it takes religious oppression to make Christians stronger in their faith and bring them closer to God? Well then you should be thanking all those who are waging war on Christians for doing you such a great service. :p

Because I defend Scriputre fully. I don't say "Well, that's not important to salvation, so think what you want."

Not that you do that.

So you never wear two colors at the same time? You never eat shellfish or pork? You never shave your beard or cut your hair?

Sure you might say that shaving and haircuts are "ritual law" and no longer binding, but what makes you so sure? Are you not denying God's creation by claiming that he made you know better than he how long human hair is supposed to be, or that a face is supposed to be hairless?

How do you define rebel?

I'm not listening to. You have no right to tell me what to do. I don't care that you are my parent and have been put in authority over me, I'll do what I want.

Not said in anger and said consistently. The child (or most likely teen) is not disobeying here or there or having a "bad week" S/he absolutely refuses to obey the authority over him/her. And then, how can s/he be expected to obey any authority? How can we trust him/her to live peacefully in society and not go raping or mudering? S/he obviously has no respect for God's Law which told him/her to obey his/her parents.

So it takes religious oppression to make Christians stronger in their faith and bring them closer to God? Well then you should be thanking all those who are waging war on Christians for doing you such a great service. :p

Well, take a look at David Limbaugh's book, "the war on Christians," or something like that.

Typical conservative fear-mongering designed to get people to believe crap that they wouldn't believe if they were in their right mind.

God gave Man free will, which is not the same as free agency. Free agency = free choice. God gave Man both. Man sinned and lost free will. His will is bound to sin: that's the only thing he wants. So he still has the ability to choose (free agency) but he will always choose sin, because his will is no longer free.

So God did not make anyone sinful.

Yes he did, because he made EVERYTHING. He made all timelines, all possibilities, all evil, and all good. He's responsible for everything and to blame for everything because it's ALL his fault! Get it yet?

Did I deserve to get "blasted", not for anything I did, but simply because my distant ancestors ate an apple? That's one of my problems with Christianity.

You deserve to be blasted for what you do. But it is because of what your ancestors did, that you do what you do.

I'm not listening to. You have no right to tell me what to do. I don't care that you are my parent and have been put in authority over me, I'll do what I want.

Not said in anger and said consistently. The child (or most likely teen) is not disobeying here or there or having a "bad week" S/he absolutely refuses to obey the authority over him/her. And then, how can s/he be expected to obey any authority? How can we trust him/her to live peacefully in society and not go raping or mudering? S/he obviously has no respect for God's Law which told him/her to obey his/her parents.

Yet Jesus commands us to reject our parents so that we may follow our own conscience to salvation. "No man who hateth not his father may be with me."

Funny how modern Christians only like to focus on the parts that encourage deprivation and obedience, but not the parts that encourage you to think for yourself or to do things you might like to do.

So it takes religious oppression to make Christians stronger in their faith and bring them closer to God? Well then you should be thanking all those who are waging war on Christians for doing you such a great service. :p

If this is true then there shouldn't be ANY Christians in the US because not only are they NOT persecuted, it is Christians who run the country and are turning it into a Theocracy.

In 5 years it's going to be the United Holy Catholic States of Jesusland (or UHCSJ).

Give it up Eddie. No one's buying that line of crap. It's not merciful to only kill some of the people you decided to create "pre-damned." Setting people up to be damned from the moment they were born with no hope of ever finding salvation is unmerciful however finely you slice the hair. It's on par with creating those clones from that Jude Law movie "The Island."

No one was created "pre-damned." We were created perfect, but Adam and Eve ruined it for us.

I never saw "The Island"

God gave Man free will, which is not the same as free agency. Free agency = free choice. God gave Man both. Man sinned and lost free will. His will is bound to sin: that's the only thing he wants. So he still has the ability to choose (free agency) but he will always choose sin, because his will is no longer free.

So God did not make anyone sinful.

did god know it was going to happen before he created the universe?

Did god have the power to stop it from happening?

If you answer "yes" to both of these, then god created the universe knowing the results of his actions, thus he chose it to happen.

I'm not listening to. You have no right to tell me what to do. I don't care that you are my parent and have been put in authority over me, I'll do what I want.

Not said in anger and said consistently. The child (or most likely teen) is not disobeying here or there or having a "bad week" S/he absolutely refuses to obey the authority over him/her. And then, how can s/he be expected to obey any authority? How can we trust him/her to live peacefully in society and not go raping or mudering? S/he obviously has no respect for God's Law which told him/her to obey his/her parents.

And where's the commandment for parents to not be idiots? There are abusive, horrible parents who would do harm upon their children. Would you have the children of said parents obey them without question in that situation? Once there's ONE exception, the whole thing has to go, because it no longer applies. If the commandment said "Most children should obey their parents" or "Children should obey their parents if their parents have a proper education and moral upbringing" but it doesn't, it just says to obey them.

Or it does according to you.

In reality it says to "HONOR thy mother and father", which doesn't dictate obeying them.

You deserve to be blasted for what you do. But it is because of what your ancestors did, that you do what you do.

But, when I was an infant, I hadn't done anything yet, but I was still, by definition, a sinner doomed to hell.

I'm not listening to. You have no right to tell me what to do. I don't care that you are my parent and have been put in authority over me, I'll do what I want.

Didn't you just say god gave us free will? My life is my own, I live it based on my choices. My parents do not have the right to tell me what to do, they have no responsibility over me. Though I say this being a good few years past my teenage time.

And then, how can s/he be expected to obey any authority? How can we trust him/her to live peacefully in society and not go raping or mudering? S/he obviously has no respect for God's Law which told him/her to obey his/her parents.

Tis why we have prisons.

that doesnt seem a little bit crazy to you?

it would solve the population problem since few teens manage to get through adolescence without any rebellion.

No. It doesn't seem nice, but we aren't concerned about being nice in punishment. We are concerned about good and just. And God, who is by definition good and just, says that that is what we must do. So we do it. Might we be upset about it? Oh yes indeed! But, that's what God says to do, so we do it.

If we actually had the death penalty for teen rebellion, I think there would be a lot less rebellion: people (for the most part) fear death. I don't know why, but they do.

No. The original Bible did not contain the Apocrypha. So the Protestants were restoring the original.

The Protestants left because of the apostacy, though many of them are falling apostate now also.

what original bible is that?



apostasy 
–noun, plural -sies. a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.


as the protestants "deserted" the catholic church, the apostasy is theirs.

the vast majority of christian denominations (leaving out the weirder cults like the branch davidians) are true enough to the message of jesus and the teaching of the bible that they cannot reasonably be considered to be apostatical. most differences are a matter of personal preference of emphasis and style of worship.

But, when I was an infant, I hadn't done anything yet, but I was still, by definition, a sinner doomed to hell.

According to him, yeah. He doesn't listen, he doesn't think. He's a horrible person and I'm fairly certain that god will tell him so when he dies.

God gave Man free will, which is not the same as free agency. Free agency = free choice. God gave Man both. Man sinned and lost free will. His will is bound to sin: that's the only thing he wants. So he still has the ability to choose (free agency) but he will always choose sin, because his will is no longer free.

So God did not make anyone sinful.

Um, no. Original sin was the aquisition of free will not the loss thereof. "Gaining the knowledge of good and evil," means gaining the ability to make the choice. Adam and Eve lacked that choice before eating "the apple" because they were not equipped with the mental faculties with which to make the choice. The were naive. That's why it was the serpent "the cleverest of all the animals in the garden" who tricked them into it.

They walked around naked. Gaining knowledge gave them knowledge of nakedness and the willingness to clothe themselves.

Remember what God said as his explanation for kicking them out? "Now that they have become as we are..." Do you think that God lacks free will?

but you don't even defend it well, you end up talking about how Nazi's were God's agents of wrath.....

And no one has been able to show how I am wrong with Scripture. I used Scripture to back it up (God oradined all governments), so use Scripture to prove me wrong.

I never said that it was good for the Nazis to be in power. I never said that I liked the Nazis. I never said that the Nazis were excused from their crimes because God used them. I merely said that God used them. Just as He used the Allies as His vessels of mercy.

No. It doesn't seem nice, but we aren't concerned about being nice in punishment. We are concerned about good and just. And God, who is by definition good and just, says that that is what we must do. So we do it. Might we be upset about it? Oh yes indeed! But, that's what God says to do, so we do it.

If we actually had the death penalty for teen rebellion, I think there would be a lot less rebellion: people (for the most part) fear death. I don't know why, but they do.


The idea of executing gays for being gay is the most morally repugnant thing I have ever heard. This is honestly comparable to hitler (note, no godwin, the analogy was proper in context). You believe that this is what god commands, and you chose to worship this god?

I would reject any being that ruled with this view of morality. Such a viewpoint is worthy only of my contempt, and I would steadfastly refuse to honor any such proposition.

So you never wear two colors at the same time? You never eat shellfish or pork? You never shave your beard or cut your hair?

Sure you might say that shaving and haircuts are "ritual law" and no longer binding, but what makes you so sure? Are you not denying God's creation by claiming that he made you know better than he how long human hair is supposed to be, or that a face is supposed to be hairless?

I'm not undrestanding your last sentence.

Yes he did, because he made EVERYTHING. He made all timelines, all possibilities, all evil, and all good. He's responsible for everything and to blame for everything because it's ALL his fault! Get it yet?

What did God do? Did He eat from the tree? No, so it was not His fault. He did not force Adam and Eve to eat from it. He didn't even put a gun to their heads. They did it because they wanted to. And because they were the representative heads of the Human Race and because they were the Stewards of Creation, everything fell with them. It was their fault. And it is our fault. Not God's.

I'm not undrestanding your last sentence.

Bible states that to have long hair is a shame upon those who wear it. Y'know, like Jesus.

No one was created "pre-damned." We were created perfect, but Adam and Eve ruined it for us.

I never saw "The Island"

A) we are created at the moment of our birth (or conception if you prefer). According to you we are already damned. We are created pre-damned.

B) "The Island" is a movie in which adult clones with full human awareness are created to serve as organ banks for wealthy patients. Even women who don't want to be pregnant, but want to have babies that are genetically theirs have clones who will carry their babies and are then killed by lethal injection. The whole time they are told that lotteries will decide who gets to go to "the island" a paradise that people will have the opportunity to go to if they're good enough. But it's just a way to keep people in line.

I had previously thought of it as an anti-stemcell research movie. But now that I think about it, it seems to have a strong anti-organized religion theme to it as well. It's saying that listening to authority figures who promise you some paradise that no one you know has ever seen will be yours when it's "Your time" is probably just looking to use you for their own material gain.

Like the pastor in the OP.

Yet Jesus commands us to reject our parents so that we may follow our own conscience to salvation. "No man who hateth not his father may be with me."

Funny how modern Christians only like to focus on the parts that encourage deprivation and obedience, but not the parts that encourage you to think for yourself or to do things you might like to do.

We already discussed that verse. It's called hyperbole. Compared to your love for Jesus, it should be as though you hate everything else. And you should obey God over anyone else. So if that gets you drug before the executioner (sp?) then you should be willing to die for God. Doesn't make it right that it's happening (someone somewhere isn't obeying God), but you should be willing to do it.

What did God do? Did He eat from the tree? No, so it was not His fault. He did not force Adam and Eve to eat from it. He didn't even put a gun to their heads. They did it because they wanted to. And because they were the representative heads of the Human Race and because they were the Stewards of Creation, everything fell with them. It was their fault. And it is our fault. Not God's.

He created the garden, the fruit, the people, and the snake.

He created their ability to acknowledge wrong and to obey, he created the snake's ability to trick and decieve, he created the punishment and he created the crime.

He scripted the whole thing. It's his fault.

Bible states that to have long hair is a shame upon those who wear it. Y'know, like Jesus.

And it also says that you're not supposed to trim or shave it. Wow. A contradiction in the Bible. What's next. Innaccurate information on the internet?

did god know it was going to happen before he created the universe?

Did god have the power to stop it from happening?

If you answer "yes" to both of these, then god created the universe knowing the results of his actions, thus he chose it to happen.

And?

No, so it was not His fault.
Yes it was, he set up the stream of events that lead to it.


He didn't even put a gun to their heads. They did it because they wanted to.

He did worse than that, he built the entire universe so that it would happen. Like I said, your belief is:

a) god knows all

b) god is all powerful

Thus god knew, KNEW it would happen, could have made it happen anyway, and chose to let it happen that way.

This is like me shooting you in the head and then saying it's your fault for not having a skull strong enough to withstand the bullet.

God knew exactly what would happen as a result of his actions, god knew the consequences of those actions, god did it anyway.

In any court of law, that is enough to prove guilt, I see no reason to apply any other standard.

Action
+ knowledge of the consequences of your action
+ an unwillingness to deviate from that course of action
= guilt

And?

Action
+ knowledge of the consequences of your action
+ an unwillingness to deviate from that course of action
= guilt

Well, why can't it? Because no one deserves pure good, except God.

So, by this logic, I can treat you like total shit because you don't deserve to receive good treatment from me or anyone because no one deserves anything good unless they are God.

So, it means I don't have to do any good unto you because you deserve squat.

That's the point. No ones good. We are saved by grace, not our own efforts which are as filthy rags.

God does care about you. But His nature constrains Him to do justice on those who have done wrong, which includes all of us.

No one good, eh? So, that means you're also a worthless little bastard like the rest of us.

You've also done wrong, and you're going to hell, no matter how much you think you're going to be saved by grace. How can you be saved unless you try?

I guess right now God is handing out justice and testing us by letting you come here... he's testing us to see if we can save ourselves from your fundamental extremism and if we can repel you with strong arguments, we can be saved by grace...

If God cared enough to tell us, He would care enough to make sure it remained intact. And so the Holy Spirit divinely inspired the writers of the Bible so that they could write no error. But, because it came from God, it is not only inerrant (without error) but also infallible (not capable of having error).

If it is without error, why are there so many versions of Genesis? Why isn't it consistant? Why are there interpretations of this so-called "Holy Doctrine" if it's supposed to be the undisputed word of God? If this was meant to be perfect, wouldn't the translation have been perfect? But, it wasn't translated perfectly; it wasn't translated by a Holy Spirit, it wasn't even written down by God.

Where does it say in the Bible that God wrote the Bible, and didn't "speak" to the various people who have written parts of the Bible?

People aren't perfect and aren't capabable of good, so, if they wrote down anything for the Bible, it means that the Bible isn't perfect and is infact infected with the impurities of man's hand.

And where's the commandment for parents to not be idiots? There are abusive, horrible parents who would do harm upon their children. Would you have the children of said parents obey them without question in that situation? Once there's ONE exception, the whole thing has to go, because it no longer applies. If the commandment said "Most children should obey their parents" or "Children should obey their parents if their parents have a proper education and moral upbringing" but it doesn't, it just says to obey them.

Or it does according to you.

In reality it says to "HONOR thy mother and father", which doesn't dictate obeying them.

You are required to honor your father and mother. You are required to obey God. Unless they are ordering you to do something contrary to God's word, you are to obey your parents as part of honoring them.

Are there times when it is hard? Yes. But that's why there is a civil government and a judicial system. They are to be able to say: "You are abusing your son and that excuses his lack of obedience (providing he didn't kill the father). Shape up or there will be consequenses for you, Dad."

But, when I was an infant, I hadn't done anything yet, but I was still, by definition, a sinner doomed to hell.

Your heart was, is, and unless God changes it, always will be against God.

What did God do? Did He eat from the tree? No, so it was not His fault. He did not force Adam and Eve to eat from it. He didn't even put a gun to their heads. They did it because they wanted to. And because they were the representative heads of the Human Race and because they were the Stewards of Creation, everything fell with them. It was their fault. And it is our fault. Not God's.

That's a nice spin that authoritarian religous leaders like to put on it, but any parent will tell you that if you leave a child alone in a room with a plate of candy, even candy corn, on a plate there's a decent chance that you can leave the room and the candy will be untouched when you come back in a few minutes.

But if you tell the kid they can't have any... Well then there's not likely to be any there at all when you come back. God created Adam and Eve with the mental faculties of children. Outsmarted by an animal with a brain the size of a knucklebone. He knew they'd eat the apple. Wanted them to eat the apple. That was the begining of our enlightenment and our destiny as God's children. We had "become like him," in his own words. It was a story about us growing up and moving out of Daddy's house. Priests who preach it as 'sin' are trying to keep you thinking like a child.

Didn't you just say god gave us free will? My life is my own, I live it based on my choices. My parents do not have the right to tell me what to do, they have no responsibility over me. Though I say this being a good few years past my teenage time.



Tis why we have prisons.

There is a difference between free agency (the correct term for choice) and permission to do whatever you want. You are not a robot: you can make a choice. But that choice is to obey or to not obey the commands God has given you, one of which is to obey your parents.

Did God blast you yet? No, even though you deserved to be blasted the moment you were conceived because you are sinful by nature. So God is merciful: He is not giving you punishment you deserve.
He created Him for His glory, which is the only reason anything happens. And God did not make him sinful. He simply is by part of his nature because Man is sinful and he is a Man.
How can something be sinful if it hasn't sinned? How can an infant be sinful? It could be the product of a sin, yes, but how can the infant itself be a sin, and thus sinful by nature? It can't be sinful unless it has done something to prove that it is sinful by nature. Its parents can be sinful by nature if they have committed a sin, but, the infant isn't sinful, even if it is the product thereof.

Your heart was, is, and unless God changes it, always will be against God.

Because he created it that way in the first place. Nobody else can create it.

Are there times when it is hard? Yes. But that's why there is a civil government and a judicial system. They are to be able to say: "You are abusing your son and that excuses his lack of obedience (providing he didn't kill the father). Shape up or there will be consequenses for you, Dad."

And then, how can s/he be expected to obey any authority? How can we trust him/her to live peacefully in society and not go raping or mudering? S/he obviously has no respect for God's Law which told him/her to obey his/her parents

So the civil authority is enough to make the dad stop abusing his child but not enough to stop those godless heathens from raping, murdering, etc etc?

Nice to know you stopped supporting even your own arguments.

what original bible is that?

The whole of Scripture without additions (like the Apocrypha).

as the protestants "deserted" the catholic church, the apostasy is theirs.

the vast majority of christian denominations (leaving out the weirder cults like the branch davidians) are true enough to the message of jesus and the teaching of the bible that they cannot reasonably be considered to be apostatical. most differences are a matter of personal preference of emphasis and style of worship.

I was not speaking to doctrine. I was speaking to practice which is beginning to influence doctrine.

Your heart was, is, and unless God changes it, always will be against God.

By the logical extention of your own belief, that's god's fault.

Action
+ knowledge of the consequences of your action
+ an unwillingness to deviate from that course of action
= guilt

Um, no. Original sin was the aquisition of free will not the loss thereof. "Gaining the knowledge of good and evil," means gaining the ability to make the choice. Adam and Eve lacked that choice before eating "the apple" because they were not equipped with the mental faculties with which to make the choice. The were naive. That's why it was the serpent "the cleverest of all the animals in the garden" who tricked them into it.

They walked around naked. Gaining knowledge gave them knowledge of nakedness and the willingness to clothe themselves.

Remember what God said as his explanation for kicking them out? "Now that they have become as we are..." Do you think that God lacks free will?

God's will is bound to good. So yes, He lacks free will. He doesn't lack free agency (a choice), but He only wants to do good.

God gave Man free will, which is not the same as free agency. Free agency = free choice. God gave Man both. Man sinned and lost free will. His will is bound to sin: that's the only thing he wants. So he still has the ability to choose (free agency) but he will always choose sin, because his will is no longer free.

So God did not make anyone sinful.
But... you said...

-.-;; Blasted doubletalk! You really enjoy contradicting yourself don't you?

And, actually, if we are bound by sin, why are we still able to employ free will if God has indeed taken it from us, and don't give me any BS about how God is making me say this, because, I don't believe God is controlling me as I don't believe in God myself.

If it is without error, why are there so many versions of Genesis? Why isn't it consistant? Why are there interpretations of this so-called "Holy Doctrine" if it's supposed to be the undisputed word of God? If this was meant to be perfect, wouldn't the translation have been perfect? But, it wasn't translated perfectly; it wasn't translated by a Holy Spirit, it wasn't even written down by God.

Where does it say in the Bible that God wrote the Bible, and didn't "speak" to the various people who have written parts of the Bible?

People aren't perfect and aren't capabable of good, so, if they wrote down anything for the Bible, it means that the Bible isn't perfect and is infact infected with the impurities of man's hand.

so what your saying is that thier are no good people on the planet? seems to me that your the only one with the impurties.

The idea of executing gays for being gay is the most morally repugnant thing I have ever heard. This is honestly comparable to hitler (note, no godwin, the analogy was proper in context). You believe that this is what god commands, and you chose to worship this god?

I would reject any being that ruled with this view of morality. Such a viewpoint is worthy only of my contempt, and I would steadfastly refuse to honor any such proposition.

Well, I'm sorry. Look at Leviticus it says in several places that homosexual activity is to be punished by death. Note that there is a difference between homosexuality and homosexual activity.

Bible states that to have long hair is a shame upon those who wear it. Y'know, like Jesus.

And? Long and short are relative to culture. So what was not long for Jesus time and place was long for the Greeks. And what was short for the Greeks is long to us. The point is that there are roles for men and women and they should be followed, not mudied. These roles include hair length.

Well, I'm sorry. Look at Leviticus it says in several places that homosexual activity is to be punished by death. Note that there is a difference between homosexuality and homosexual activity.

I have read leviticus, several times. It allows me to reach one of two conclusions.

Either it is not real, and therefore have no obligation to follow it.

OR

I find it absolutly morally repugnant and thus reject worshipping any diety that would command it.

I steadfastly refuse to obey any agency that would require me to take the life of those who have done no harm.

God said that? well then to hell with god. And you too, for prostrating yourself to that.

And? Long and short are relative to culture. So what was not long for Jesus time and place was long for the Greeks. And what was short for the Greeks is long to us. The point is that there are roles for men and women and they should be followed, not mudied. These roles include hair length.

apparently though it's now culturally acceptable to have same sex relations, so we should repeal that law too.

Well, I'm sorry. Look at Leviticus it says in several places that homosexual activity is to be punished by death. Note that there is a difference between homosexuality and homosexual activity.

Dosen't it also say you can eat four legged insects(which don't exist)?

He created the garden, the fruit, the people, and the snake.

He created their ability to acknowledge wrong and to obey, he created the snake's ability to trick and decieve, he created the punishment and he created the crime.

He scripted the whole thing. It's his fault.

And this is the first thing that Adam and Eve did: shift the blame: the serpent made us do it.

Only we're too intelligent to believe in serpents. So God made us do it.

Plus that gives us an excuse to not worship or obey God.

God's will is bound to good. So yes, He lacks free will. He doesn't lack free agency (a choice), but He only wants to do good.

You're wrong, on general principal. God is, by definition, EVERYTHING. His spiritual being, the results of his actions, and us, are all part of god. From the most evil to the most holy, it is all god. The universe is god. What we refer to as 'god' is just the PR department of Godcorp, LLC.

If you don't understand the nature of god himself, you can't hope to achieve the knowledge of his message.

Well then to hell with god.

Can I get a RAmen from the congregation?! :)

Only we're too intelligent to believe in serpents. So God made us do it.


Action
+ knowledge of the consequences of your action
+ an unwillingness to deviate from that course of action
= guilt

And this is the first thing that Adam and Eve did: shift the blame: the serpent made us do it.

Only we're too intelligent to believe in serpents. So God made us do it.

Plus that gives us an excuse to not worship or obey God.

Because it makes sense. It gives us a reason, because the reason exists and is true. They were right.

In reality it says to "HONOR thy mother and father", which doesn't dictate obeying them.
That reminds me of an episode of family guy in which Peter kidnaps the Pope, and brings him to meet hsi father, only to be told that the Bible says to "honour thy father and thy mother; it says nothing about liking them."

But, when I was an infant, I hadn't done anything yet, but I was still, by definition, a sinner doomed to hell.
How can infant have sinned if they are unable to do anything except lie in their crib and be wholey dependant on another for all the necessities of life?

so what your saying is that thier are no good people on the planet? seems to me that your the only one with the impurties.
I'm not saying there are no good people; I'm saying the Bible is not perfect. I'm just using Edwardis' twisted logic to make an argument.

Your heart was, is, and unless God changes it, always will be against God.
Why would God want people against him? Doesn't he have enough on his plate with Hell and everything?

Well, I'm sorry. Look at Leviticus it says in several places that homosexual activity is to be punished by death. Note that there is a difference between homosexuality and homosexual activity.

Yet you say it's a sin but can you really define how one person feels about another? I understand the diffrence but you just make me sick. Your a cruel cruel person. This is the way some people are just get over yourself and your religon.

Yes it was, he set up the stream of events that lead to it.




He did worse than that, he built the entire universe so that it would happen. Like I said, your belief is:

a) god knows all

b) god is all powerful

Thus god knew, KNEW it would happen, could have made it happen anyway, and chose to let it happen that way.

This is like me shooting you in the head and then saying it's your fault for not having a skull strong enough to withstand the bullet.

God knew exactly what would happen as a result of his actions, god knew the consequences of those actions, god did it anyway.

In any court of law, that is enough to prove guilt, I see no reason to apply any other standard.

Action
+ knowledge of the consequences of your action
+ an unwillingness to deviate from that course of action
= guilt

No! I don't know how else to say this. He knew what was going to happen. But was He under any obligation to stop it? No. Show me how He was. To do so, He would have to eliminate free agency and that would have you in an uproar as well (if you were even able to have an uproar).

...
You are not sharing the gospel.


That seems an unfairly harsh statement directed at him. He has consistantly brought up the topic of Salvation through Christ. And that IS the gospel, the good news.

Philippians 1
15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

The gospel is the good news of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ which is the source of complete deliverance from the penalty of sin which is death, the good news is the story of how salvations is granted to us through the mercy and grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Knowing what the good news is vital if one is to receive salvation and have a life-transforming relationship with Jesus Christ,

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."

We are all born with a fatal condition and this condition is called sin. God is sinless and for all practicable purposes God can be said to hate sin, for sin is rebellion against His perfect righteousness.

Our sinful actions makes us an enemy of God, but God made man to be imperishable, in His own image, He made us so that we might have perpetual fellowship with Him. But when sin came between us, the personal fellowship between man and God changed, and God had to find a way to overcome that obstacle that created death for us and separation from Him. And that IS the good news, that Jesus has come to fulfill that promise and bring to us the possibility of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven with God.

That seems an unfairly harsh statement directed at him. He has consistantly brought up the topic of Salvation through Christ. And that IS the gospel, the good news.
talking about how God is punishing people by sendng Nazi's and hurricanes is not good news, nor is it effective evangelizing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwardis
Your heart was, is, and unless God changes it, always will be against God.

By the logical extention of your own belief, that's god's fault.

Action
+ knowledge of the consequences of your action
+ an unwillingness to deviate from that course of action
= guilt

What is your point Art?

You've "proved" that predeterminism is nonsense,.. as you've defined it.

You've "proved" that an "all powerful god" would be the worst kind of sadist,.. as you've defined that.

Is your point that "You've WON!"..?

You've won your agrument to yourself, but if the definitions you use to support your argument aren't shared with others, then you've "proven" nothing but that you can convince yourself of your own reasoning.

What you're illustrating to Edwardis is your hostility toward your acceptance of his believing what he believes.

He thinks you're trying to change him,.. to believe as you do,.. which he would if he used your definitions,.. which he can to see from your position that what you say is TRUE to you because of your construction for yourself.

But he can't believe that you can't see from his position,.. even if only temporarily, to establish how he could believe what he believes.

So who is attacking whom?

And for the hell of it, the definition of sin and sinful as the majority of us accept it.

–noun
1. transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
2. any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
3. any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.
–verb (used without object)
4. to commit a sinful act.
5. to offend against a principle, standard, etc.
–verb (used with object)
6. to commit or perform sinfully: He sinned his crimes without compunction.
7. to bring, drive, etc., by sinning: He sinned his soul to perdition.

–adjective
characterized by, guilty of, or full of sin; wicked: a sinful life.

With those two definitions, how can something by default be sinful by nature if to be sinful requires the person to have committed a sin? If they haven't committed a sin, then...?

<snip>

I thought the whole point of Christianity was to make yourself a better person and not a bloodthirsty religious fanatic who want's to kill everyone for every little thing they ever did wrong?

Or maybe the only way to be both a Good Person and a Christian is to ignore two-thirds of the religion.

We already discussed that verse. It's called hyperbole. Compared to your love for Jesus, it should be as though you hate everything else. And you should obey God over anyone else. So if that gets you drug before the executioner (sp?) then you should be willing to die for God. Doesn't make it right that it's happening (someone somewhere isn't obeying God), but you should be willing to do it.

Sorry, but there's nothing anywhere in the Bible that indicates that "hate" means "like a lot less than."

It's not hyperbole, it's epicycles. (explanation below if you need it) You've got a theory that's full of holes, so you're taking someone else's lame spackle job to try to patch those holes up. But it won't work because your theory is way off. Christianity is not an authoritarian philosophy. It's a seditious one. That's why Christ was executed. He undermined authority. Just because the next authority uses his name, doesn't mean they are justified. It's like how the Republicans set themselves up as the party of patriotism and the military so that if you disagree with them they can pretend that you hate america and don't support the troops. No matter how unamerican the Republican party behaves.

Organized right-wing religous figures do the same thing. Their teachings, like the behavior of the pastor in the OP are anti-christian. But no one calls them on it because they keep talking about Christ.


***If you don't know what epicycles are, they were an invention designed to save the theory of geocentrism. If you look at the planets, they seem to sometimes move backwards. This can't happen if they're on a ring that is always turning in the same direction (which medieval astronomers believed they did) so they said that there must be smaller rings which pick those planets up and drop them back on the conveyor belt at an earlier point. Everytime someone discovered a new irregularity in a planetary orbit, they attributed it to a hitherto undiscovered epicycle.

The same flawed logic is going on in religous doctrine.
i.e.
The bible is literally true from begining to end.
Well, no the pork bit isn't really literally true because... (well, we like porkchops)
No, the planting two crops in the same spot can be done away with too because... (well, it's stupid to farm without the three field system)
Well, of course we can shave. What are we? Barbarians?
Do as I say, honor your father. No, don't you mind the "hate your father" bit. It's er... Hyperbole. Yeah. That's the ticket.
And you can't smoke pot. Never mind that bit about "every herb bearing seed." Christians don't smoke pot. errr... It's somewhere in the back.

So, by this logic, I can treat you like total shit because you don't deserve to receive good treatment from me or anyone because no one deserves anything good unless they are God.

So, it means I don't have to do any good unto you because you deserve squat.

Except that God commands us to behave in certain ways to each other.

No one good, eh? So, that means you're also a worthless little bastard like the rest of us.

You've also done wrong, and you're going to hell, no matter how much you think you're going to be saved by grace. How can you be saved unless you try?

Yes, I am no better than you. Arguably I am worse, because I know better. The point is I wouldn't want to be saved unless God by His grace changed me.

If it is without error, why are there so many versions of Genesis? Why isn't it consistant? Why are there interpretations of this so-called "Holy Doctrine" if it's supposed to be the undisputed word of God? If this was meant to be perfect, wouldn't the translation have been perfect? But, it wasn't translated perfectly; it wasn't translated by a Holy Spirit, it wasn't even written down by God.

There is only one version of Genesis which I'm aware of. No, there is error in translation. That is why there are so many translations. Everyone is trying to get the error out.

Where does it say in the Bible that God wrote the Bible, and didn't "speak" to the various people who have written parts of the Bible?

I never said God wrote the Bible. He did speak to different people at different times.

People aren't perfect and aren't capabable of good, so, if they wrote down anything for the Bible, it means that the Bible isn't perfect and is infact infected with the impurities of man's hand.

Unless they were kept from error by the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PootWaddle
That seems an unfairly harsh statement directed at him. He has consistantly brought up the topic of Salvation through Christ. And that IS the gospel, the good news.

talking about how God is punishing people by sendng Nazi's and hurricanes is not good news, nor is it effective evangelizing.

It's a bit provocative, perhaps, but aren't you just a tiny bit intrigued as to how someone could say that, since it's apparently SO outside your way of thinking?

I thought the whole point of Christianity was to make yourself a better person and not a bloodthirsty religious fanatic who want's to kill everyone for every little thing they ever did wrong?

Or maybe the only way to be both a Good Person and a Christian is to ignore two-thirds of the religion.

Well, sadly, the republican's already do that. And it isn't making them better people to ignore the bit about helping the poor, but to hold fast to the bit about homosexuality being an abomination.

No! I don't know how else to say this. He knew what was going to happen. But was He under any obligation to stop it? No. Show me how He was. To do so, He would have to eliminate free agency and that would have you in an uproar as well (if you were even able to have an uproar).

He was under an obligation to stop it if he disagreed with the results to such an event, and doubly so if he were to punish any of those involved when he had the ability to prevent it from happening.

That's a nice spin that authoritarian religous leaders like to put on it, but any parent will tell you that if you leave a child alone in a room with a plate of candy, even candy corn, on a plate there's a decent chance that you can leave the room and the candy will be untouched when you come back in a few minutes.

But if you tell the kid they can't have any... Well then there's not likely to be any there at all when you come back. God created Adam and Eve with the mental faculties of children. Outsmarted by an animal with a brain the size of a knucklebone. He knew they'd eat the apple. Wanted them to eat the apple. That was the begining of our enlightenment and our destiny as God's children. We had "become like him," in his own words. It was a story about us growing up and moving out of Daddy's house. Priests who preach it as 'sin' are trying to keep you thinking like a child.

Well I've never heard a priest preach. And I didn't get this from anyone other than the Bible in Romans.

Simply feed the Christians to the Lions!

I have a friend in the Army, who thinks Hiitler should have hired the Jews to kill all the Christians (after establishing some pseudo religion for the Ayrian nation) and then kill the Jews.

Also I'ld like to point out one important error by the Church: "...this soul does not exist ab initio, as orthodox Christianity teaches. It has to be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation. However, this is rarely achieved, owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from spiritual matters by everyday trivia." This idea seems to fit in all categories of religion, since the idea of the soul is well sumed up in that Monty Python line. In other words; why the hell are we still discussing the opiate of the people as anything beyond that? Relgion is a tool which inhibits free will and binds humans to believe that they know nothing and must suffer from some higher power always; perhaps that is why it has been a good tool for nations.. Can we please talk about more logical and useful things, like whether or not one should annex a nation? Also, adam and eve were never taught the ideas of right and wrong, (messages from the Earth)

It's a bit provocative, perhaps, but aren't you just a tiny bit intrigued as to how someone could say that, since it's apparently SO outside your way of thinking?

I understand why it was said. I get the simplicity.

I think it's a bad way to go around evangelizing like that, and it worries me that someone who could get backed into that corner is out trying to tell others how to live.

How can something be sinful if it hasn't sinned? How can an infant be sinful? It could be the product of a sin, yes, but how can the infant itself be a sin, and thus sinful by nature? It can't be sinful unless it has done something to prove that it is sinful by nature. Its parents can be sinful by nature if they have committed a sin, but, the infant isn't sinful, even if it is the product thereof.

Here's the question:

Are we sinners because we sin? Or do we sin because we are sinners?

The answer is the second. The Bible teaches that natural Man, including the unborn Man is totally averse to God.

So the civil authority is enough to make the dad stop abusing his child but not enough to stop those godless heathens from raping, murdering, etc etc?

Nice to know you stopped supporting even your own arguments.

What?

What is your point Art?

You've "proved" that predeterminism is nonsense,.. as you've defined it.

You've "proved" that an "all powerful god" would be the worst kind of sadist,.. as you've defined that.

Is your point that "You've WON!"..?

My point is that it is logically inconsistant, nothing more.

You've won your agrument to yourself, but if the definitions you use to support your argument aren't shared with others, then you've "proven" nothing but that you can convince yourself of your own reasoning.

What you're illustrating to Edwardis is your hostility toward your acceptance of his believing what he believes.

I have no particular hostility towards him believing something. I find his particular beliefs morally repugnant, and have no particular qualms about stating that.

He thinks you're trying to change him,.. to believe as you do

He himself said he was trying to share the gospel. That is its very definition, to change others to believe as he does. It is his right to do so, and it is my right to do the same in inverse.


So who is attacking whom?

I attack nobody. He states his beliefs, I state mine, we argue about it. That is debate. If he wishes to live the life evangelicalizing then ok, but he is not then immune from the correspondant.

Here's the question:

Are we sinners because we sin? Or do we sin because we are sinners?

The answer is the second. The Bible teaches that natural Man, including the unborn Man is totally averse to God.

Balogna! Without humans gods are nothing. Without Gods, humans are animals without a belief in a higher power.

I thought the whole point of Christianity was to make yourself a better person and not a bloodthirsty religious fanatic who want's to kill everyone for every little thing they ever did wrong?

Or maybe the only way to be both a Good Person and a Christian is to ignore two-thirds of the religion.

the point of Christianity is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, anything else is superficial.

don't listen to people who say otherwise.

But... you said...

-.-;; Blasted doubletalk! You really enjoy contradicting yourself don't you?

And, actually, if we are bound by sin, why are we still able to employ free will if God has indeed taken it from us, and don't give me any BS about how God is making me say this, because, I don't believe God is controlling me as I don't believe in God myself.

Free will is not the same thing as free agency.

Free agency is free choice.

Free will is that your able to want anything. We lost that. Naturally, we want sin and nothing else.

I notice that none of the Fundie-Christians had anything to say to me about the following...

I thought the whole point of Christianity was to make yourself a better person and not a bloodthirsty religious fanatic who want's to kill everyone for every little thing they ever did wrong?

Or maybe the only way to be both a Good Person and a Christian is to ignore two-thirds of the religion.

By the way, Ed you wouldn't happen to be a Christian Reconstructionist would you?

Free will is not the same thing as free agency.

Free agency is free choice.

Free will is that your able to want anything. We lost that. Naturally, we want sin and nothing else.

Your argument needs a definition of Sin. Buddha found a definition and claimed it was only a belief investment of a thought. Freedom is natural.

apparently though it's now culturally acceptable to have same sex relations, so we should repeal that law too.

Ahhh, but the Law specifically against same-sex relations.

So there is room for cultural differences (like how long is long) but there are some things which are absolute (like no murder).

Dosen't it also say you can eat four legged insects(which don't exist)?

I'm not sure about that one. That might be an istance of poor translation.

Perhaps not the right thread for this kind of question, but i´m going to ask anyways to those "Christian" guys!

1. Do you belive that dinosours exisisted?

2. If yes, shouldn´t they have been mentioned in the bible, then?


Please don´t make this too complicated. A simple yes or no will have to do.

No! I don't know how else to say this. He knew what was going to happen. But was He under any obligation to stop it? No. Show me how He was.

Was he under any obligation to? I fail to see how I can speak for a diety that may or may not exist.

I simply find such a being that would create sin, set us up so that we would have no choice BUT to sin, then punish us for sinning not worthy of my worship or admiration.

Sure an all powerful all knowing diety could do it, but you're not doing any good job in converting me by telling me that god will punish me for being the sinner he made me into.

Ahhh, but the Law specifically against same-sex relations.

So there is room for cultural differences (like how long is long) but there are some things which are absolute (like no murder).

Why is same-sex marriage a bad thing? YOu can make millions off of idiots of any sex! Just charge the same for normal marriage and divorce. Besides, there is no sanctity anymore, the Pope ruined that.

You're wrong, on general principal. God is, by definition, EVERYTHING. His spiritual being, the results of his actions, and us, are all part of god. From the most evil to the most holy, it is all god. The universe is god. What we refer to as 'god' is just the PR department of Godcorp, LLC.

If you don't understand the nature of god himself, you can't hope to achieve the knowledge of his message.

Well that's not the God of the Bible. There is a difference between being everywhere (which God is) and bein everything (which God is not).

I'm not sure about that one. That might be an istance of poor translation.

There are no poor translations, because god would want us to know the truth, and the holy spirit would keep the translations correct.


Right?

Well I've never heard a priest preach. And I didn't get this from anyone other than the Bible in Romans.

What is your religous background? Because it's rare for someone to be this into religion without listening to some sort of priest or minister. And most the Baptists are far more authoritarian that the Catholics are.

Was he under any obligation to? I fail to see how I can speak for a diety that may or may not exist.

I simply find such a being that would create sin, set us up so that we would have no choice BUT to sin, then punish us for sinning not worthy of my worship or admiration.

Sure an all powerful all knowing diety could do it, but you're not doing any good job in converting me by telling me that god will punish me for being the sinner he made me into.

Sin isnt a thing you doodoo head...(lol) Sin is a thought, if a thought can be made real, then Time is a dimension of this reality, and money is a necesity everywhere in the Galaxy.

I'm not sure about that one. That might be an istance of poor translation.

So how do you know that whole part about homosexual activities being gay isn't a poor translation? Or just slipped in by some homophobe with an agenda after the fact?

Once you accept the possibility of ONE error, accept that SOME part of it may not be god's true word, then you must accept that ANY part of it may be also.

Maybe his name was Jebus after all.

Why would God want people against him? Doesn't he have enough on his plate with Hell and everything?

Why would the size of the stuff on His plate matter to God?

Well that's not the God of the Bible. There is a difference between being everywhere (which God is) and bein everything (which God is not).

No, you're not getting it. God HAS to be everything, or else he's not god.

Well that's not the God of the Bible. There is a difference between being everywhere (which God is) and bein everything (which God is not).

Which version do you reffer to? of the bible that is?

Yet you say it's a sin but can you really define how one person feels about another? I understand the diffrence but you just make me sick. Your a cruel cruel person. This is the way some people are just get over yourself and your religon.

How they feel really doesn't matter in determining whether it's good or not. I'm sure Hitler felt very good about killing Jews.

Ahhh, but the Law specifically against same-sex relations.

So there is room for cultural differences (like how long is long) but there are some things which are absolute (like no murder).

the law also speaks specifically against wearing blended fabrics.

What is your religous background? Because it's rare for someone to be this into religion without listening to some sort of priest or minister. And most the Baptists are far more authoritarian that the Catholics are.

I think that Edwardis is a Christian Reconstructionalist, one of those Hyper-Nutters who are so deep into the religion that their only debate is if they should be allowed to own slaves or not.

Sin is a thought

Sin is either a thought, or action based on sinful thinking, depending on what particular faith you believe in.

Either way, god set me up so that I would think it/act on thinking it, either thinking it, or doing it, god set that up.

if a thought can be made real, then Time is a dimension of this reality

Modern physics seems to suggest it is.

Perhaps not the right thread for this kind of question, but i´m going to ask anyways to those "Christian" guys!

1. Do you belive that dinosours exisisted?
yes.

2. If yes, shouldn´t they have been mentioned in the bible, then?

why would they?

How they feel really doesn't matter in determining whether it's good or not. I'm sure Hitler felt very good about killing Jews.

No, Sin was explained to you and me, it was not experienced first becuase it had no meaning. We experienced Sin only after we understood it, otherwise, the definition used as sin is wrong.

What is your religous background? Because it's rare for someone to be this into religion without listening to some sort of priest or minister. And most the Baptists are far more authoritarian that the Catholics are.

I believe his point is, that technically "priest" is specifically catholic, while I believe protestant says "minister".

The general catch all term I suppose is "preacher"

Sorry, but there's nothing anywhere in the Bible that indicates that "hate" means "like a lot less than."

It's not hyperbole, it's epicycles. (explanation below if you need it) You've got a theory that's full of holes, so you're taking someone else's lame spackle job to try to patch those holes up. But it won't work because your theory is way off. Christianity is not an authoritarian philosophy. It's a seditious one. That's why Christ was executed. He undermined authority. Just because the next authority uses his name, doesn't mean they are justified. It's like how the Republicans set themselves up as the party of patriotism and the military so that if you disagree with them they can pretend that you hate america and don't support the troops. No matter how unamerican the Republican party behaves.

Organized right-wing religous figures do the same thing. Their teachings, like the behavior of the pastor in the OP are anti-christian. But no one calls them on it because they keep talking about Christ.


***If you don't know what epicycles are, they were an invention designed to save the theory of geocentrism. If you look at the planets, they seem to sometimes move backwards. This can't happen if they're on a ring that is always turning in the same direction (which medieval astronomers believed they did) so they said that there must be smaller rings which pick those planets up and drop them back on the conveyor belt at an earlier point. Everytime someone discovered a new irregularity in a planetary orbit, they attributed it to a hitherto undiscovered epicycle.

The same flawed logic is going on in religous doctrine.
i.e.
The bible is literally true from begining to end.
Well, no the pork bit isn't really literally true because... (well, we like porkchops)
No, the planting two crops in the same spot can be done away with too because... (well, it's stupid to farm without the three field system)
Well, of course we can shave. What are we? Barbarians?
Do as I say, honor your father. No, don't you mind the "hate your father" bit. It's er... Hyperbole. Yeah. That's the ticket.
And you can't smoke pot. Never mind that bit about "every herb bearing seed." Christians don't smoke pot. errr... It's somewhere in the back.

Interesting. I never heard that before.

I disagree, but that's interesting.

Free will is not the same thing as free agency.

Free agency is free choice.

Free will is that your able to want anything. We lost that. Naturally, we want sin and nothing else.

So by telling us this you are motivated by your own sinful want to lead us away from the salvation that we might find by trying to hold words like mercy and justice to sensible definitions and meaningful concepts instead of all this contrived "'coz God sez so," nonsense?

Sounds about right to me.

Out of curiosity, is your definition of inherently sinful want here a circular one? i.e. "I want to provide food to the poor."
"Well then feeding the poor is sinful, otherwise you wouldn't want to do it."

Sin is either a thought, or action based on sinful thinking, depending on what particular faith you believe in.

Either way, god set me up so that I would think it/act on thinking it, either thinking it, or doing it, god set that up.



Modern physics seems to suggest it is.

Einstein could never prove it, and how could Adam and Eve, being created and tought nothing other than not to eat an apple, know the difference between one thought to another, if no personal and/or moral belief is invested in either? (I.E. Doing what told is good, and what not is bad.)