NationStates Jolt Archive

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:


Guys, we have some very odd news to give to you. Evidently the school scheduled a big wig politician to come speak today. They forgot that we have two services now, and so they have asked us that in respect for the politician's views on separation of Church and State(I go to a state funded university), that we are to be quiet in our service. More or less we have to be invisible. The University says if we can do that, then they will have to revoke our worship service rights.

At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:




At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?almost every time I pick up the newspaper or listen to the news.

Sounds to me like your pastor is a lying, manipulative sack of crap. No offense.

Sounds to me like your pastor is a lying, manipulative sack of crap. No offense.

My thoughts exactly.

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:




At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?Oh, bloody hell. The University fucked it up, you shouldn't be the ones paying for it.

Sounds to me like your pastor is a lying, manipulative sack of crap. No offense.

yeah. I mean, really did that happen or you think it would be cool if it did?

yeah. I mean, really did that happen or you think it would be cool if it did?I think the thing that bugs me most about the story is the way the pastor is making it look like the separation of church and state is designed to make it more difficult on churches to worship the way they choose, when it's exactly the opposite. I mean, I know that the hard-core asshole right-wingers like to make it sound like government is out to burn your bibles so they can motivate their members to vote for their candidates, but the fact is that the First Amendment is meant to keep government out of church, and it does so, for the most part.

Unless you're a liberal church in California whose pastor preaches a non-partisan antiwar message a month before the 2004 election. Then the IRS is all up in your shit. But I digress.

I think the thing that bugs me most about the story is the way the pastor is making it look like the separation of church and state is designed to make it more difficult on churches to worship the way they choose, when it's exactly the opposite. I mean, I know that the hard-core asshole right-wingers like to make it sound like government is out to burn your bibles so they can motivate their members to vote for their candidates, but the fact is that the First Amendment is meant to keep government out of church, and it does so, for the most part.

Unless you're a liberal church in California whose pastor preaches a non-partisan antiwar message a month before the 2004 election. Then the IRS is all up in your shit. But I digress.
oh sure that annoys me, but also the idea that the pastor felt that he needed to lie to his congregation to perform his own "test of their faith" it just makes me sick.

Sounds to me like your pastor is a lying, manipulative sack of crap. No offense.

Sounds about right.

oh sure that annoys me, but also the idea that the pastor felt that he needed to lie to his congregation to perform his own "test of their faith" it just makes me sick.
Yeah, I can see that too. I guess I come from a different perspective because since I'm an atheist and a liberal, I'm usually the kind of person who gets demonized by the likes of that pastor as a god-hater, when that's not the case at all.

oh sure that annoys me, but also the idea that the pastor felt that he needed to lie to his congregation to perform his own "test of their faith" it just makes me sick.


It sickens you? I think it is good that we are shaken up every now and then. This was an excellent thing in my eyes. I mean, it kind of gave me an insight to how some christians around the world have to practice their faith- underground, being quiet and so on. But we looked past that and we came together as one body and we overcame the situation. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I think the thing that bugs me most about the story is the way the pastor is making it look like the separation of church and state is designed to make it more difficult on churches to worship the way they choose, when it's exactly the opposite. I mean, I know that the hard-core asshole right-wingers like to make it sound like government is out to burn your bibles so they can motivate their members to vote for their candidates, but the fact is that the First Amendment is meant to keep government out of church, and it does so, for the most part.

Unless you're a liberal church in California whose pastor preaches a non-partisan antiwar message a month before the 2004 election. Then the IRS is all up in your shit. But I digress.

This wasn't a case of politics at all. The made a scenario that seemed to be most realistic to our society. I mean could they have said "we have to be silent or else the gov't will kill us" Thats just not believable at all in America.

Yeah, I can see that too. I guess I come from a different perspective because since I'm an atheist and a liberal, I'm usually the kind of person who gets demonized by the likes of that pastor as a god-hater, when that's not the case at all.

...and that is precisely why I can't stand religion; it "tests" your faith.

It sickens you? I think it is good that we are shaken up every now and then. This was an excellent thing in my eyes. I mean, it kind of gave me an insight to how some christians around the world have to practice their faith- underground, being quiet and so on. But we looked past that and we came together as one body and we overcame the situation. I don't see anything wrong with that.

:rolleyes:

Oh yea we have the lions ready for you....

:rolleyes:

Oh yea we have the lions ready for you....

And thats why most people fail, because they refuse to see the bigger picture in it and would rather ridicule others.

This wasn't a case of politics at all. The made a scenario that seemed to be most realistic to our society. I mean could they have said "we have to be silent or else the gov't will kill us" Thats just not believable at all in America.

It's not realistic, and that's what I got pissed about. Your pastor is lying to you about what the separation of church and state is, and he's a despicable piece of crap for doing it. And you obviously don't understand the Constitution because you bought it.

Gullible!

When will he tell you you shouldn't pay taxes cause its not in the Constitution?

Nice test of faith though. Why do you need it, if you truly believe?

oh sure that annoys me, but also the idea that the pastor felt that he needed to lie to his congregation to perform his own "test of their faith" it just makes me sick.

Particularly since isn't lying a sin? Or at least, something that Jesus Wouldn't Do?

Whatever. This incident sickens me, as does Zilam's fanwanking about how feel-goody it made him feel to know that he's One with the Religious Hive Mind.

I mean, maybe if religious people didn't feel the need to lie just to "unify" their followers, there'd be less things like terrorist bombings, or ethnic cleansing, or whathaveyou. But no.

Gullible!

When will he tell you you shouldn't pay taxes cause its not in the Constitution?

Nice test of faith though. Why do you need it, if you truly believe?

Well, one can talk the talk all the time, saying that they could stand up against the world , but what use is the talk without the walk?

It sickens you? I think it is good that we are shaken up every now and then. This was an excellent thing in my eyes. I mean, it kind of gave me an insight to how some christians around the world have to practice their faith- underground, being quiet and so on. But we looked past that and we came together as one body and we overcame the situation. I don't see anything wrong with that.

The point you're responding to is that many of us believe that the Pastor was lying. He was pretending that efforts were being made to shut the service down when he was just trying to taunt his flock into kicking up their passion play.

It's not a great thing when a Pastor has such an apathetic flock that rather than let them go away in their faithlessness or try to persuade them with honest appeals to their faith or reason, he has to pull this manipulative bullshit.

People who respond to such things, even if true, aren't "feeling the holy spirit move them," they're feeling happy about getting the chance to indulge in childish contrariansim. In essense it wasn't the spirit of "hallelujah" it was the spirit of "na n-na n-na naaa."

And thats why most people fail, because they refuse to see the bigger picture in it and would rather ridicule others.

Oh I see the big picture. Your pastor is lying to you about the establishment clause means and has made it a political issue.

If your school only allows your group to have worship on campus, then the school has violated the clause. I suspect the school is neutral and allows anybody worship time.

As to the politician, I suspect they asked your pastor to reschedule and he opted to make a political statement.
I just loved the approach of lights out, "GTFO!" and lock the doors :rolleyes:

I was the controller for a university student government, I was even the CEO for the universities non-profit entity that ran all the support stores, etc. I was in the information loop when VIPs appeared.

Your pastor is a liar.

The point you're responding to is that many of us believe that the Pastor was lying. He was pretending that efforts were being made to shut the service down when he was just trying to taunt his flock into kicking up their passion play.

It's not a great thing when a Pastor has such an apathetic flock that rather than let them go away in their faithlessness or try to persuade them with honest appeals to their faith or reason, he has to pull this manipulative bullshit.

People who respond to such things, even if true, aren't "feeling the holy spirit move them," they're feeling happy about getting the chance to indulge in childish contrariansim. In essense it wasn't the spirit of "hallelujah" it was the spirit of "na n-na n-na naaa."


He wasn't trying to get rawled up or anything, he wanted us to take a look at our lives to see if we could walk the walk, instead of just accepting something like that.

Particularly since isn't lying a sin? Or at least, something that Jesus Wouldn't Do?

Whatever. This incident sickens me, as does Zilam's fanwanking about how feel-goody it made him feel to know that he's One with the Religious Hive Mind.

I mean, maybe if religious people didn't feel the need to lie just to "unify" their followers, there'd be less things like terrorist bombings, or ethnic cleansing, or whathaveyou. But no.

There's something in the Bible about "being all things to all people," which some christians interpret to mean "lie your ass off if it will make people more devout to your cause." And in fairness, "thou shalt not bear false witness" doesn't mean "don't lie" it means "don't tell nasty lies about people." It doesn't even prohibit telling flattering lies about people because it's "false witness against thy neighbor." So "for your neighbor" should be just fine.

Basicly it's "get people to be Christian if you can, get them to pretend to be if you can't."

Oh I see the big picture. Your pastor is lying to you about the establishment clause means and has made it a political issue.

If your school only allows your group to have worship on campus, then the school has violated the clause. I suspect the school is neutral and allows anybody worship time.

As to the politician, I suspect they asked your pastor to reschedule and he opted to make a political statement.
I just loved the approach of lights out, "GTFO!" and lock the doors :rolleyes:

I was the controller for a university student government, I was even the CEO for the universities non-profit entity that ran all the support stores, etc. I was in the information loop when VIPs appeared.

Your pastor is a liar.


It wasn't about the establishment cause, it was about whether or not we would be able to be strong in times like mentioned in the scenario.

It sickens you? I think it is good that we are shaken up every now and then. This was an excellent thing in my eyes. I mean, it kind of gave me an insight to how some christians around the world have to practice their faith- underground, being quiet and so on. But we looked past that and we came together as one body and we overcame the situation. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Did it also give you an insight into how some non-Christians around the world and even right here in the US also have to practice their faith underground? Did it give you insight into the pressures on pagans and other religious minorities in your own neighborhoods? How about insight into the pressures felt by secular-minded people who are increasingly being denounced as enemies of religion every time they ask to opt out of participating in someone else's observances, until they feel it's just safer to keep their mouths shut and hide from the hostility? While we're at it, did you get any insight into what it might be like to be gay in some communities?

Or did it just make you think that the US Constitution is designed to oppress you?

Do you feel fired up to stand up for everyone's rights? Or just to act as if Da Man is trying to keep you down?

I don't like or agree with what the pastor did, but I'm glad that you got the particular feeling that you did from it.

Did it also give you an insight into how some non-Christians around the world and even right here in the US also have to practice their faith underground? Did it give you insight into the pressures on pagans and other religious minorities in your own neighborhoods? How about insight into the pressures felt by secular-minded people who are increasingly being denounced as enemies of religion every time they ask to opt out of participating in someone else's observances, until they feel it's just safer to keep their mouths shut and hide from the hostility? While we're at it, did you get any insight into what it might be like to be gay in some communities?

Or did it just make you think that the US Constitution is designed to oppress you?

Do you feel fired up to stand up for everyone's rights? Or just to act as if Da Man is trying to keep you down?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:


Does no one hear me saying it wasn't about the CONSTITUTION? HE JUST USED THAT AS AN EXAMPLE TO POINT OUT THAT WE SHOULD WALK THE WALK,AND NOT JUST TALK THE TALK!

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:


Does no one hear me saying it wasn't about the CONSTITUTION? HE JUST USED THAT AS AN EXAMPLE TO POINT OUT THAT WE SHOULD WALK THE WALK,AND NOT JUST TALK THE TALK!
Way not to answer...:rolleyes:

It wasn't about the establishment cause, it was about whether or not we would be able to be strong in times like mentioned in the scenario.

What times are those? The times when the US Constitution gives a politician the right to silence a religious service?

Are you leaving something out here? Did this pastor justify his lie at all by at least trying to put it into the context of a broader social consciousness? Or did he just demonize the First Amendment in order to push your buttons?

Well, one can talk the talk all the time, saying that they could stand up against the world , but what use is the talk without the walk?

If your pastor wanted to you to walk rather than talk, then I'm sure he could have found some work in the community that needs to be done. Witnessing by donating time and effort to those that need it seems to be a much bigger step than singing louder because your pastor lied to you. The real world is a much better place to take a step in your life than the confines of the church in any case, so that you can see what real opposition to your views is like.

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:




At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?

What a vomit-inducing story...I am not sure what is worse, the stunt pulled by your preacher or your fawning reaction to it.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:


Does no one hear me saying it wasn't about the CONSTITUTION? HE JUST USED THAT AS AN EXAMPLE TO POINT OUT THAT WE SHOULD WALK THE WALK,AND NOT JUST TALK THE TALK!

That phrase does not mean anything, no matter how big you write it.

The example he used was false and highly politicized. It completely misrepresented US law. Quit pretending it was neutral.

Wow, talk about harsh. Frankly I'd like to take a moment to congratulate Zilam and his Union for standing up for their faith that way. Who cares if it wasn't true? Who cares if the pastor made it up? The point is that they found in themselves a strength they wouldn't otherwise have known, and grew that closer to God.

Good on you Zilam, and not least for standing up for yourself here too, even amidst all the hostility. I always wonder how far I'd go for God, and the only way to really know how strong my faith is would be to put it to the test.

What a vomit-inducing story...I am not sure what is worse, the stunt pulled by your preacher or your fawning reaction to it.

Why can't both be equally as bad?!

That phrase does not mean anything, no matter how big you write it.

The example he used was false and highly politicized. It completely misrepresented US law. Quit pretending it was neutral.

Well then what scenario should he have used? It doesn't matter what bloody example he used, it was merely a means to an end! Highly politicised my arse - it was just a believable situation.

Don't worry Zilam, I got the point.

It wasn't about the establishment cause, it was about whether or not we would be able to be strong in times like mentioned in the scenario.

What?

Guys, we have some very odd news to give to you. Evidently the school scheduled a big wig politician to come speak today. They forgot that we have two services now, and so they have asked us that in respect for the politician's views on separation of Church and State(I go to a state funded university), that we are to be quiet in our service. More or less we have to be invisible. The University says if we can't do that, then they will have to revoke our worship service rights.

Sorry that is very political and not the message you claim it is.

People who respond to such things, even if true, aren't "feeling the holy spirit move them," they're feeling happy about getting the chance to indulge in childish contrariansim. In essense it wasn't the spirit of "hallelujah" it was the spirit of "na n-na n-na naaa."I couldn't have said it better myself.

Being an activist, I see it all the time. It's the same feeling of unity, strength & outrage that makes people throw shit at eachother & so on. Sometimes it can be a good thing, but usually it isn't.

Especially not when it's the result of some dishonest fucked up preacherboy with a political agenda, who're trying to make you & your fellow suckers hate his political opponents.

Get your head out of the sand.

If your pastor wanted to you to walk rather than talk, then I'm sure he could have found some work in the community that needs to be done. Witnessing by donating time and effort to those that need it seems to be a much bigger step than singing louder because your pastor lied to you. The real world is a much better place to take a step in your life than the confines of the church in any case, so that you can see what real opposition to your views is like.

Good point.

So, Zilam, tell us -- aside from singing yourself hoarse and imagining what it's like to be a victim, what have you done for your god and his children lately?

What times are those? The times when the US Constitution gives a politician the right to silence a religious service?

Are you leaving something out here? Did this pastor justify his lie at all by at least trying to put it into the context of a broader social consciousness? Or did he just demonize the First Amendment in order to push your buttons?

I don't know, maybe sometime in the future some of us will live in an opressive nation as missionaries, or perhaps in the future in the US, the establishment clause is reinterpreted to mean something else, giving way to more restrictiveness on church services. This isn't at all about that though. I was trying to point out that we overcame the situation and was able to still lift God's name above all things. Thats what this is about. Even in the midst of something like that, we were able to stand up for Christ.

If your pastor wanted to you to walk rather than talk, then I'm sure he could have found some work in the community that needs to be done. Witnessing by donating time and effort to those that need it seems to be a much bigger step than singing louder because your pastor lied to you. The real world is a much better place to take a step in your life than the confines of the church in any case, so that you can see what real opposition to your views is like.

I must admit he's got a valid point here.

Well then what scenario should he have used? It doesn't matter what bloody example he used, it was merely a means to an end! Highly politicised my arse - it was just a believable situation.

Don't worry Zilam, I got the point.

It's called rescheduling due to a special event. It happens all the time.

Don't recall the Bible ever listing times you had to have service.

Why can't both be equally as bad?!Good point.

Wow, talk about harsh. Frankly I'd like to take a moment to congratulate Zilam and his Union for standing up for their faith that way. Who cares if it wasn't true? Who cares if the pastor made it up? The point is that they found in themselves a strength they wouldn't otherwise have known, and grew that closer to God.

Good on you Zilam, and not least for standing up for yourself here too, even amidst all the hostility. I always wonder how far I'd go for God, and the only way to really know how strong my faith is would be to put it to the test.

Thank you :)

Good point.

So, Zilam, tell us -- aside from singing yourself hoarse and imagining what it's like to be a victim, what have you done for your god and his children lately?

It always makes me scratch my head when one moment that exclaim to be the largest Religion in the US and then the next they are screaming oppression.

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:




At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?

I knew it! Christians love being persecuted!

It's called rescheduling due to a special event. It happens all the time.

Don't recall the Bible ever listing times you had to have service.
Didn't a bunch of old men in dresses decide that it had to happen at a certain time and in a certain place?

Good point.

So, Zilam, tell us -- aside from singing yourself hoarse and imagining what it's like to be a victim, what have you done for your god and his children lately?

Well aside from praising Him in most all I do, I am in the planning stages of becoming a permanent missionary. In which i am going to go spread a message of love. Go help the sick, the poor and the hungry, and if they want to hear my message I will teach them why I love them so. Thats what I am going to do.

Well then what scenario should he have used? It doesn't matter what bloody example he used, it was merely a means to an end! Highly politicised my arse - it was just a believable situation.

Don't worry Zilam, I got the point.

Then you and he can enjoy your victimization fantasies together.

I practice a minority religion in the US and I know first hand what it's like to have people come at me with hostility. I've been told that I'm going to hell because I don't believe as they do, that I'm a devil worshipper, that I shouldn't have full rights of citizenship or be allowed to hold certain jobs. I've had clueless fools who didn't even mean to be hostile ask me loudly and publicly, "Oooh, you worship demons? I'm afraid of people like you." Those were co-workers who I couldn't just walk away from. And I've had really hostile types tell me that the very existence of my religion is a threat to them and their children and that it doesn't matter what I believe because they will bring the bible into the law and that will save my soul by forcing me to conform to their god's law. I'm not kidding. Such things have actually been said to me by people who profess themselves to be Christians. (Oh, and one Muslim, too, who was trying to date me but was afraid he'd go to hell if he banged a chick who didn't believe in god. I saved him from that fate. Not by converting, though.)

I know for a fact that the First Amendment protects my rights every single day. To see this pastor of Zilam's declaring it to be a threat to their religion is so ignorant that it offends me.

Oh did I mention we adopted two children from Haiti last year? Gave them food, medicine, clean clothes etc. And this year we are going to adopt a few more, not to mention Christmas and thansgiving time reachouts, feed the poor, give toys to little kids etc. Yep, we christians sure do only care about ourselves and making ourselves feel good.:rolleyes:

Oh did I mention we adopted two children from Haiti last year? Gave them food, medicine, clean clothes etc. And this year we are going to adopt a few more, not to mention Christmas and thansgiving time reachouts, feed the poor, give toys to little kids etc. Yep, we christians sure do only care about ourselves and making ourselves feel good.:rolleyes:


Did you do it through an aid agency or a christian aid agency?

Did you do it through an aid agency or a christian aid agency?

Honestly I don't know. Would it matter either way? I mean if the people are getting aid, then why care about who does it?

I don't know, maybe sometime in the future some of us will live in an opressive nation as missionaries, or perhaps in the future in the US, the establishment clause is reinterpreted to mean something else, giving way to more restrictiveness on church services. This isn't at all about that though. I was trying to point out that we overcame the situation and was able to still lift God's name above all things. Thats what this is about. Even in the midst of something like that, we were able to stand up for Christ.

If he's preparing you to go be a missionary in some place like communist China, why did he have to make up a story about the US Constitution taking away your rights as Americans?

EDIT: Wait, I just reread your post. "...perhaps in the future in the US, the establishment clause is reinterpreted to mean something else, giving way to more restrictiveness on church services."

So then it WAS a political message, and a negative one at that, wasn't it? It was about spinning some kind of fantasy that someone is coming to take away your rights, wasn't it?

If he's preparing you to go be a missionary in some place like communist China, why did he have to make up a story about the US Constitution taking away your rights as Americans?

I suppose because it was the easiest thing to think of at the time.

Then you and he can enjoy your victimization fantasies together.

I practice a minority religion in the US and I know first hand what it's like to have people come at me with hostility. I've been told that I'm going to hell because I don't believe as they do, that I'm a devil worshipper, that I shouldn't have full rights of citizenship or be allowed to hold certain jobs. I've had clueless fools who didn't even mean to be hostile ask me loudly and publicly, "Oooh, you worship demons? I'm afraid of people like you." Those were co-workers who I couldn't just walk away from. And I've had really hostile types tell me that the very existence of my religion is a threat to them and their children and that it doesn't matter what I believe because they will bring the bible into the law and that will save my soul by forcing me to conform to their god's law. I'm not kidding. Such things have actually been said to me by people who profess themselves to be Christians. (Oh, and one Muslim, too, who was trying to date me but was afraid he'd go to hell if he banged a chick who didn't believe in god. I saved him from that fate. Not by converting, though.)

I know for a fact that the First Amendment protects my rights every single day. To see this pastor of Zilam's declaring it to be a threat to their religion is so ignorant that it offends me.

I empathise with you.

It sucks that a majority that has its rights heavily protected turns around and acts like a victim at a little tiny lie, and but turns a blind eye to the fact that there are people who practice religion that doesn't fall into the realm of "normality", and think that it's perfectly fine to "save" these people.

I've been there. I was preached at by two fundie Christians, and it made me an even stronger athiest.

I'll tell you something, the worst thing is when your mother tells you that your beliefs are invalid and that you actually believe something else. My mother tried to tell me that not only was I wrong but that I didn't actually believe that.

Honestly I don't know. Would it matter either way? I mean if the people are getting aid, then why care about who does it?

Because one goes in to help people and the other goes in to help people and pitch the Religion.

we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?


Protestant services are so weird and emotional.

Sounds to me like your pastor is a lying, manipulative sack of crap. No offense.
I wouldn't call him a sack of crap, but I don't agree that tests should be performed by clergy on their congregations. God sets them for each of us individually.

Whatever. This incident sickens me, as does Zilam's fanwanking about how feel-goody it made him feel to know that he's One with the Religious Hive Mind.
You appear to say this with sincerity!

Did it also give you an insight into how some non-Christians around the world and even right here in the US also have to practice their faith underground? Did it give you insight into the pressures on pagans and other religious minorities in your own neighborhoods?
Surely religious minorities are not persecuted in America???

It always makes me scratch my head when one moment that exclaim to be the largest Religion in the US and then the next they are screaming oppression.
Way to generalise about all Christians.

I've noticed that most people are unfairly assuming that Zilam is a right-wing Christian.


I practice a minority religion in the US and I know first hand what it's like to have people come at me with hostility. I've been told that I'm going to hell because I don't believe as they do, that I'm a devil worshipper, that I shouldn't have full rights of citizenship or be allowed to hold certain jobs.
How is this a political issue? The right to free speech guarantees their right to say these things about your religion as much as it protects your right to follow it.

I'm not American but I find all this hostility against Christians in general to be unfair and offensive.

Did you do it through an aid agency or a christian aid agency?
It probably doesn't matter. Very few Christian aid agencies require that the people they help convert to the religion. Most of them act in the same way as the secular ones.

Protestant services are so weird and emotional.
I know. Catholic ones are so much better; you get a work out while you express your faith.

I empathise with you.

It sucks that a majority that has its rights heavily protected turns around and acts like a victim at a little tiny lie, and but turns a blind eye to the fact that there are people who practice religion that doesn't fall into the realm of "normality", and think that it's perfectly fine to "save" these people.

I've been there. I was preached at by two fundie Christians, and it made me an even stronger athiest.

I'll tell you something, the worst thing is when your mother tells you that your beliefs are invalid and that you actually believe something else. My mother tried to tell me that not only was I wrong but that I didn't actually believe that.

We might have laws that seemingly protect Christianity, but really does that ensure that its not persecuted against? Have you ever been a christian and had to face ridicule every day in HS, and even at Uni, just because you beleive that a man died on a cross to save people? Until you have been spat upon, beat, and verbally abused, i don't think you can say who is and isn't persecuted.

I suppose because it was the easiest thing to think of at the time.

Please see the edit I added to my post. I do believe that your pastor chose the First Amendment story on purpose, and, further, I do not believe your glib excuses for it. In your own words, the political issue is evident.

Because one goes in to help people and the other goes in to help people and pitch the Religion.

Most christian aid services aren't there to convert. They are there doing Christ's commandments to freely heal the sick, and feed the poor. And like i said, if someone sees the love, and wonders why people are doing this, then they might say "its because i was shown love by christ" or soemthing along those lines. its not like they are going around saying "Here's some food, NOW CONVERT YOU HEATHEN!"

Please see the edit I added to my post. I do believe that your pastor chose the First Amendment story on purpose, and, further, I do not believe your glib excuses for it. In your own words, the political issue is evident.

Well believe what you will. You are not the pastor, neither am I, so how can either of us know what his motives really were.

We might have laws that seemingly protect Christianity, but really does that ensure that its not persecuted against? Have you ever been a christian and had to face ridicule every day in HS, and even at Uni, just because you beleive that a man died on a cross to save people? Until you have been spat upon, beat, and verbally abused, i don't think you can say who is and isn't persecuted.
No, but I faced ridicule from Christians and I was told that I was wrong in my faith and that I should not act a certain way because it goes against the Bible. This happened in high school.

My best friend is Muslim and I was with her when she was verbally abused, and I even heard my own mother verbally abuse my friend, and the same friend was mocked and ridiculed in public. In fact, it has come to the point that she is afraid at times to express her faith because of the way people act.

The same two Christian fundies I knew, would try and shame me and my best friend because we wouldn't go to the Christian Fellowship group. We were told that we should keep an open mind and go.

I left first because I couldn't stand being told that I was wrong in my beliefs and my best friend stopped going because she didn't believe in what they said either.

I empathise with you.

It sucks that a majority that has its rights heavily protected turns around and acts like a victim at a little tiny lie, and but turns a blind eye to the fact that there are people who practice religion that doesn't fall into the realm of "normality", and think that it's perfectly fine to "save" these people.

I've been there. I was preached at by two fundie Christians, and it made me an even stronger athiest.

I'll tell you something, the worst thing is when your mother tells you that your beliefs are invalid and that you actually believe something else. My mother tried to tell me that not only was I wrong but that I didn't actually believe that.

Thank you.

I'd say about two thirds of my experiences with hostility have come from missionarie, and I've never had a good encounter with a missionary. As a result, I confess I have a very negative attitude towards them. The rest were people I met socially or at work. There were some who I didn't even socialize with, but would overhear a conversation between my and my friends talking about our religions -- such as discussing holiday plans -- and just butt right in with remarks about how such and such is having truck with demons and we'll all go to hell if we do it.

Meanwhile, it doesn't have to be that way. I also once worked with two fundie Christians who nevertheless were able to adapt to living in a multi-faith society. They knew that I was a pagan, but neither they nor I ever discussed religion much. Once, some certain issues about occultism were being discussed and I was talking pretty freely, since my religion has no taboos about that sort of thing, when one of those Christian co-workers said that such things scared him. Even though he knew it wasn't really harmful, he still believed in evil forces and talking about such things upset him. So we all just changed the subject. No hostility about it. I have also had friendly encounters with Catholic priests, Protestant ministers, and Catholic and Buddhist monks and nuns. So I'm not the one who is imagining some overarching threat from belief systems outside my own.

No, but I faced ridicule from "christians" and I was told that I was wrong in my faith and that I should not act a certain way because it goes against the Bible. This happened in high school.

My best friend is Muslim and I was with her when she was verbally abused, and I even heard my own mother verbally abuse my friend, and the same friend was mocked and ridiculed in public. In fact, it has come to the point that she is afraid at times to express her faith because of the way people act.

The same two "christian" fundies I knew, would try and shame me and my best friend because we wouldn't go to the Christian Fellowship group. We were told that we should keep an open mind and go.

I left first because I couldn't stand being told that I was wrong in my beliefs and my best friend stopped going because she didn't believe in what they said either.

See thats the problem. You have lowercase "christians" that go around spouting all this BS about how so and so is going to hell for believing this and that. Now clearly if they were true followers of Christ, they'd take His approach, in showing that love conquers all.

Then you and he can enjoy your victimization fantasies together.

I practice a minority religion in the US and I know first hand what it's like to have people come at me with hostility. I've been told that I'm going to hell because I don't believe as they do, that I'm a devil worshipper, that I shouldn't have full rights of citizenship or be allowed to hold certain jobs. I've had clueless fools who didn't even mean to be hostile ask me loudly and publicly, "Oooh, you worship demons? I'm afraid of people like you." Those were co-workers who I couldn't just walk away from. And I've had really hostile types tell me that the very existence of my religion is a threat to them and their children and that it doesn't matter what I believe because they will bring the bible into the law and that will save my soul by forcing me to conform to their god's law. I'm not kidding. Such things have actually been said to me by people who profess themselves to be Christians. (Oh, and one Muslim, too, who was trying to date me but was afraid he'd go to hell if he banged a chick who didn't believe in god. I saved him from that fate. Not by converting, though.)

I know for a fact that the First Amendment protects my rights every single day. To see this pastor of Zilam's declaring it to be a threat to their religion is so ignorant that it offends me.


Amen, amen I say to you. I've seen this happen so many times around where I live. Just gotta stay strong.

We might have laws that seemingly protect Christianity, but really does that ensure that its not persecuted against? Have you ever been a christian and had to face ridicule every day in HS, and even at Uni, just because you beleive that a man died on a cross to save people? Until you have been spat upon, beat, and verbally abused, i don't think you can say who is and isn't persecuted.

If your pastor telling you someone asked you to keep your service quiet had you and your congregation crying and singing at the top of their lungs, then you haven't experienced persecution. If you say that being fooled into believing you were persecuted was an important step in your growth as a Christian, than you haven't been spat upon, beaten, or verbally abused.

Besides, persecution from individuals isn't equivalent to being persecuted as a group. Hell, going by your description of "persecution", I was persecuted for my height, glasses, and intelligence in middle school. The law doesn't protect Christianity from that kind of behavior for the same reason I couldn't go to the principal to stop the bullies; that kind of behavior doesn't threaten anything but your feelings.

Christians are the majority in the States, there is an entire movement within one of our major political parties dedicated to bringing Christian values into law, and you want to say there is persecution because there is no special protection for Christians in the law? Grow some thicker skin and experience true adversity before claiming persecution.

If your pastor telling you someone asked you to keep your service quiet had you and your congregation crying and singing at the top of their lungs, then you haven't experienced persecution. If you say that being fooled into believing you were persecuted was an important step in your growth as a Christian, than you haven't been spat upon, beaten, or verbally abused.

Besides, persecution from individuals isn't equivalent to being persecuted as a group. Hell, going by your description of "persecution", I was persecuted for my height, glasses, and intelligence in middle school. The law doesn't protect Christianity from that kind of behavior for the same reason I couldn't go to the principal to stop the bullies; that kind of behavior doesn't threaten anything but your feelings.

Christians are the majority in the States, there is an entire movement within one of our major political parties dedicated to bringing Christian values into law, and you want to say there is persecution because there is no special protection for Christians in the law? Grow some thicker skin and experience true adversity before claiming persecution.

I'd beg to differ the bolded statement. Just because 80%(or whatever the number is) affiliates with Christianity, doesn't mean they are Christians. And no I am not judging anyone, just saying if they are not Christ like, then they really can't be considered Christians.

The pastor wasnt being manipulative, he was testing!
You see, people can be saying "I believe in God" and participating in services at church, but some people, as soon as they are told to stfu with their religion, will just stfu. These people are only half-baked Christians.
The holy spirit feeling- I feel it all the time whenever i worship. Its not the "nanananannanaa" feeling, its the "The Lord Is With Us" feeling.
To All Atheists-
I have nothing wrong with atheism, just dont go calling everyone who has a religion a "religious nut" or a "dipsh*t who believes in fairytales".
Some people may insult you, but insulting back will only cause more trouble

its a good thing that you and your coworshippers were not so attached to having a free space to worship in that you would compromise your beliefs in order to keep it.

really, thats ALL you were risking. you werent risking death, prison or even public ridicule. just the annoyance of having some asshole make a fuss with the university to get your services kicked off taxpayer funded space.

it would have been sad to have given in to such a demand. it would have been even sadder if you had failed this particular little test. no one your age who is so totally in the right and has so little to lose should ever give in to pressure from a powerful person who is so totally wrong.

how can you not be mad at your minister who lied and manipulated you. does the end justify the means suddenly? he should be called on the carpet by whatever authority is over him and reminded that lying is a sin.

I'd beg to differ the bolded statement. Just because 80%(or whatever the number is) affiliates with Christianity, doesn't mean they are Christians. And no I am not judging anyone, just saying if they are not Christ like, then they really can't be considered Christians.

Let's not get into a No True Scotsman Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman_fallacy) here. Sure, you may not think that the majority of Christians aren't close enough to being actual Christians, but they think of themselves as Christians. They are the majority here in America, and they and you are under no danger of persecution here for religion.

Well aside from praising Him in most all I do, I am in the planning stages of becoming a permanent missionary. In which i am going to go spread a message of love. Go help the sick, the poor and the hungry, and if they want to hear my message I will teach them why I love them so. Thats what I am going to do.

This lot have saved lives in their time.
http://www.cpt.org/

Looking at that story again, I have to wonder if the whole lot of you in the service weren't played. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the pastor had set up some shills in the audience, in case the expected reaction didn't pop up on its own. Couldn't have the flock just walking out and giving up, right? You'd need someone to "spontaneously" begin worshipping and trigger the rest of you.

Now it may well be that your group did this on its own, but if the pastor went to those lengths to make that kind of a point, I'd wager he set it up so he couldn't fail. You guys got suckered by your pastor.

<snip>
Surely religious minorities are not persecuted in America???
Not by the law, thanks to the First Amendment. But by individuals, yes, they often are.

<snip>
How is this a political issue? The right to free speech guarantees their right to say these things about your religion as much as it protects your right to follow it.
No, actually it does not. Even under the right to free speech, there is a line drawn that does not protect speech that amounts to threats or harrassment. Such threatening speech has to be very clear and very pointed, and sometimes it has to be backed up with some kind of action -- as when someone yells "Filthy Jew!" while throwing a rock at a window.

Also, free speech does not protect speech that is designed to ruin someone else's reputation with lies (slander) or such lies that are published in writing (libel). So some weirdos out there may think that pagans eat babies, but they are not allowed to just going about saying so in public and claim First Amendment protection for it.

So the just plain stupid remarks of those ignorant co-workers were not violations of my rights at all. But the times I have actually had missionaries get physically into my face and use other intimidation tactics while they verbally abused me for my beliefs, those were violations, and if a cop had been present, I could have gotten some action. It is my good fortune and their bad fortune that I do not intimidate easily and don't hesitate to stand up for myself, but as you can probably tell, such things still bother me, years later.

Now take all these incidents together and multiply by all the millions of other non-Christians or non-religious people in the US who have similar stories to tell, and trust me, you will see a pattern of hostility towards non-Christians and especially non-Protestants that has been going on for a very, very long time. The only thing that protects minority religions at all in the US is the First Amendment of the Constitution, which I remind you protects both speech and religion.

I know. Catholic ones are so much better; you get a work out while you express your faith.


Heck yeah.

Looking at that story again, I have to wonder if the whole lot of you in the service weren't played. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the pastor had set up some shills in the audience, in case the expected reaction didn't pop up on its own. Couldn't have the flock just walking out and giving up, right? You'd need someone to "spontaneously" begin worshipping and trigger the rest of you.

Now it may well be that your group did this on its own, but if the pastor went to those lengths to make that kind of a point, I'd wager he set it up so he couldn't fail. You guys got suckered by your pastor.

Well in that case I am sure nearly everything in my life is a lie too. Gee thanks for clearing that up for me!

We might have laws that seemingly protect Christianity, but really does that ensure that its not persecuted against? Have you ever been a christian and had to face ridicule every day in HS, and even at Uni, just because you beleive that a man died on a cross to save people? Until you have been spat upon, beat, and verbally abused, i don't think you can say who is and isn't persecuted.
Hey, here's someone who does know what it's like, right here. I've already asked you a bunch of questions about how you feel about non-Christians facing the same abuse, and about gays and other minorities facing it. How about an answer? Will you stand with me and fight for both our rights together? Or is this victim complex yours alone?

The pastor wasnt being manipulative, he was testing!
You see, people can be saying "I believe in God" and participating in services at church, but some people, as soon as they are told to stfu with their religion, will just stfu. These people are only half-baked Christians.
The holy spirit feeling- I feel it all the time whenever i worship. Its not the "nanananannanaa" feeling, its the "The Lord Is With Us" feeling.


I don't think pastors have the right to 'test' people by lying. The end DOES NOT justify the means.

We will never do good by doing evil.

Hey, here's someone who does know what it's like, right here. I've already asked you a bunch of questions about how you feel about non-Christians facing the same abuse, and about gays and other minorities facing it. How about an answer? Will you stand with me and fight for both our rights together? Or is this victim complex yours alone?

Yes I would stand side by side with you or anyone else that needed help. In fact, you might remember a thread I did a few weeks back about me going to help out the UNITY group stand against the crazy people preaching condemnation against gays, jews, etc... I am not about just standing up for when its convienant to my own life. No Christ gave us an example to help out all not matter what, and no matter who. And thats an example I take to heart.

Well believe what you will. You are not the pastor, neither am I, so how can either of us know what his motives really were.

We can infer them from his words and actions. But, then, I have always been more interested in results than intentions. Your pastor may not have realized the potential damage of his little make-believe game, but the message that the First Amendment is against Christians was there nonetheless, and that is a very bad thing for any Christian who might believe it. Trust me, it really is.

I am 15 years old, atheist, and I live in the Bible Belt. Does anyone want to take a guess at how many people know I'm not Christian?

Well in that case I am sure nearly everything in my life is a lie too. Gee thanks for clearing that up for me!

So you worship your pastor? I thought you worshipped God. You better wise up, or you're gonna get used and abused by everyone around you. Just because your pastor may have suckered you doesn't mean you need to reexamine your entire belief system--unless you've been following the wrong person all along.

Kind of odd that this is coming from an atheist, huh?

I'm not a religion hater, and I'm not a god hater and I don't think that people who follow a faith are bad people, or suckers, or stupid. It just isn't for me. But your attitude here is horribly naive, if you meant that post as it sounded, because it sounds like you're putting an awful lot of faith in the messenger instead of the message, and that's dangerous.

Yes I would stand side by side with you or anyone else that needed help. In fact, you might remember a thread I did a few weeks back about me going to help out the UNITY group stand against the crazy people preaching condemnation against gays, jews, etc... I am not about just standing up for when its convienant to my own life. No Christ gave us an example to help out all not matter what, and no matter who. And thats an example I take to heart.

Would you do what the CPT do, regardless of location?

I am 15 years old, atheist, and I live in the Bible Belt. Does anyone want to take a guess at how many people know I'm not Christian?

I think its going to be zero or everyone in the town

Amen, amen I say to you. I've seen this happen so many times around where I live. Just gotta stay strong.

Don't worry about me. Let's just say that, in every neighborhood I've ever moved into, the missionaries eventually quit ringing my doorbell. ;)

Some people may insult you, but insulting back will only cause more trouble

I take issue with this very strongly. Why should Atheists take insults with silence? For what reason should they hold their tongues? If the religious are unable to be respectful, why should the irreligious be expected to? Holding a double standard like that is wrong.

I'm not a big fan of the agressive "Stupid theist" nonsense that radical atheists spew, because I see it as an ineffective form of self defense, but there should be no double standard about it. If you don't like atheists saying what they say, you should work on quieting both groups, and not just one group. Christians do not deserve special treatment.

I think its going to be zero or everyone in the town

You get a cookie!

So you worship your pastor? I thought you worshipped God. You better wise up, or you're gonna get used and abused by everyone around you. Just because your pastor may have suckered you doesn't mean you need to reexamine your entire belief system--unless you've been following the wrong person all along.

Kind of odd that this is coming from an atheist, huh?

I'm not a religion hater, and I'm not a god hater and I don't think that people who follow a faith are bad people, or suckers, or stupid. It just isn't for me. But your attitude here is horribly naive, if you meant that post as it sounded, because it sounds like you're putting an awful lot of faith in the messenger instead of the message, and that's dangerous.

And I think its a little rediculous to think that a man I know rather well would set something up like that. You know setting people in the crowd to do things to have a desired result. He plainly stated that at first service, no one seemed to care.

Sounds to me like your pastor is a lying, manipulative sack of crap. No offense.

His pastor is offensive, beyond all believable bounds. What's next - he gonna tell his flock they're throwing freshman Christians to lions in the gymnasium?

Would you do what the CPT do, regardless of location?

What is it that they do?

I take issue with this very strongly. Why should Atheists take insults with silence? For what reason should they hold their tongues? If the religious are unable to be respectful, why should the irreligious be expected to? Holding a double standard like that is wrong.

I'm not a big fan of the agressive "Stupid theist" nonsense that radical atheists spew, because I see it as an ineffective form of self defense, but there should be no double standard about it. If you don't like atheists saying what they say, you should work on quieting both groups, and not just one group. Christians do not deserve special treatment.


No one says anyone deserves special treatment, its just a little sad that when I speak my mind about my faith, I am claimed to be a stupid religious nut or something, but the person that makes those claims are being rewarded by their peers with verbal approvals and such.

And I think its a little rediculous to think that a man I know rather well would set something up like that. You know setting people in the crowd to do things to have a desired result. He plainly stated that at first service, no one seemed to care.

the man is a liar and a manipulator. if he would lie about the one thing, why not about the other?

And I think its a little rediculous to think that a man I know rather well would set something up like that. You know setting people in the crowd to do things to have a desired result. He plainly stated that at first service, no one seemed to care.

You're willing to give this guy an awful lot of leeway, even when he lied to you. This sounds like you're placing more faith in the messenger than the message.

His pastor is offensive, beyond all believable bounds. What's next - he gonna tell his flock they're throwing freshman Christians to lions in the gymnasium?

Now you are just judging the man. I mean, do you know him? Do you know if he is offensive or not? It'd be like me saying that you are a complete and utter idiot for making this one post(which i am not saying, nor do I beleive), with out ever knowing anything else about you

I'm a Pagan...that thing kind of just runs in the family, so as you can see-this thread seems pretty ridiculous to me.

"Moyers: As we sit here and talk, there is one story after another of car bombings in Beirut-by the Muslims of the Christians, by the Christians of the Muslims, and by the Christians of the Christians. It strikes me that Marshall McLuhan was right when he said that television has made a global village of the world-but he didn't know the global village would be Beirut. What does that say to you?

Campbell: It says to me that they don't know how to apply their religious ideas to contemporary life, and to human beings rather than just to their own community. It's a terrible example of the failure of religion to meet the modern world. These three mythologies are fighting it out. They have disqualified themselves for the future."

You get a cookie!

you are wise beyond your years, grasshopper.

you are going to LOVE the day when you tell all those people that you are an atheist. i recommend that it be the day you are leaving the region.

Yes I would stand side by side with you or anyone else that needed help. In fact, you might remember a thread I did a few weeks back about me going to help out the UNITY group stand against the crazy people preaching condemnation against gays, jews, etc... I am not about just standing up for when its convienant to my own life. No Christ gave us an example to help out all not matter what, and no matter who. And thats an example I take to heart.

No, I missed that thread, but I am heartily glad to hear about it.

But since you do feel the commonality of rights among all people, can you also see the danger in buying into the idea that Christianity is or may soon be under some kind of social or governmental persecution, and especially of buying into the idea that the very laws that protect religion for all people will be used to persecute Christians in particular?

This is why I asked you earlier if your pastor attempted to put his trick into a broader social context about persecution, rather than just leave his congregation with the impression that US law could be used to silence them?

No one says anyone deserves special treatment, its just a little sad that when I speak my mind about my faith, I am claimed to be a stupid religious nut or something, but the person that makes those claims are being rewarded by their peers with verbal approvals and such.

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm not caling you a stupid religious nut or anything of the sort, and I haven't seen much of that on this thread. We're saying your pastor is a liar and he's deliberately manipulating you and the rest of the congregation. There's a hell of a difference there.

I am 15 years old, atheist, and I live in the Bible Belt. Does anyone want to take a guess at how many people know I'm not Christian?

That depends, I guess. How many people do you know who are also atheists? I'll guess it's the same number as know that you are one.

Now you are just judging the man. I mean, do you know him? Do you know if he is offensive or not? It'd be like me saying that you are a complete and utter idiot for making this one post(which i am not saying, nor do I beleive), with out ever knowing anything else about you

He lied to you: making the first amendment into government persecution where an evil liberal politician can shut down a church on a whim.

why would he not feed your persecution complex with more bullshit about lions?

Zilam: pull the wool over your own eyes for a change.

the man is a liar and a manipulator. if he would lie about the one thing, why not about the other?

How many times has everyones parents lied to them about things in their childhood? Toothfairy, easter bunny, santa claus, etc? But yet the children have faith in their parents no? I'll give you a better example. Take anyone of Jesus' parables about a particular person, Jesus told them these stories, wheter it was about the Good Samaritan or the Prodigal Son, or whoever, to get a message across, no matter if it really happened or not. Is that a lie? some might say yes, but I say no, since it is giving people a moral lesson, where as a lie is something non moral. So take this pastor's story about the politician. It was a story made to change our view point. He wasn't trying to make us feel anger towards anyone, although some people were angry, but rather he tried to let us see in ourselves wether in times or peril if we could stand for Christ or allow ourselves to be quiet.

You're willing to give this guy an awful lot of leeway, even when he lied to you. This sounds like you're placing more faith in the messenger than the message.

No trust me Nazz, I know that the message is far greater. However, I know this man would not stoop so low as to make everything a hoax.

No one says anyone deserves special treatment, its just a little sad that when I speak my mind about my faith, I am claimed to be a stupid religious nut or something, but the person that makes those claims are being rewarded by their peers with verbal approvals and such.

Read the quote I was responding to, please.

<snip>
No one says anyone deserves special treatment, its just a little sad that when I speak my mind about my faith, I am claimed to be a stupid religious nut or something, but the person that makes those claims are being rewarded by their peers with verbal approvals and such.

Welcome to the club, Zilam. The people who attack my religion and call me names also get plenty of approval and support from their peers. Such people are obnoxious asses, and they are equal opportunity offenders. Learn how to tell them to fuck off in a good Christian way and get over it. Do not use the behavior of a few yahoos to make up a trend of anti-Christian hatred where none exists.

He lied to you: making the first amendment into government persecution where an evil liberal politician can shut down a church on a whim.

why would he not feed your persecution complex with more bullshit about lions?

Never said the politician was an evil liberal. :p Our congregation is overwhelmingly moderate and/or apathetic.

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm not caling you a stupid religious nut or anything of the sort, and I haven't seen much of that on this thread. We're saying your pastor is a liar and he's deliberately manipulating you and the rest of the congregation. There's a hell of a difference there.
Never said you called me that. But I sworn i saw a few posts referring to what i said. I know you wouldn't do that.

No, I missed that thread, but I am heartily glad to hear about it.

But since you do feel the commonality of rights among all people, can you also see the danger in buying into the idea that Christianity is or may soon be under some kind of social or governmental persecution, and especially of buying into the idea that the very laws that protect religion for all people will be used to persecute Christians in particular?

This is why I asked you earlier if your pastor attempted to put his trick into a broader social context about persecution, rather than just leave his congregation with the impression that US law could be used to silence them?

Well I do beleive that sometime in the future Christians will have the law against us, basically because of end time prophecy and yadda yadda. However, I can see the point being where making it seem soley that the Us constitution is out to eat christians alive is dangerous. But in my mind, he did make it seem to have a broader sociall context. I wish i had it on tape to show you all. It was a great service. One of the best i have honestly ever been too. I came from there feeling so energized, because I really poured my heart out into it.

I'm a Pagan...that thing kind of just runs in the family, so as you can see-this thread seems pretty ridiculous to me.

"Moyers: As we sit here and talk, there is one story after another of car bombings in Beirut-by the Muslims of the Christians, by the Christians of the Muslims, and by the Christians of the Christians. It strikes me that Marshall McLuhan was right when he said that television has made a global village of the world-but he didn't know the global village would be Beirut. What does that say to you?

Campbell: It says to me that they don't know how to apply their religious ideas to contemporary life, and to human beings rather than just to their own community. It's a terrible example of the failure of religion to meet the modern world. These three mythologies are fighting it out. They have disqualified themselves for the future."
Excellent post. :)

If people cannot work towards peaceful co-existence, if all they can do think to do is kill the unbeliever and make up enemies if they can't find any real ones, then they truly are doomed, by their own hands.

To quote another great thinker: "Life's too short to be long about the forms of it."

Now take all these incidents together and multiply by all the millions of other non-Christians or non-religious people in the US who have similar stories to tell, and trust me, you will see a pattern of hostility towards non-Christians and especially non-Protestants that has been going on for a very, very long time. The only thing that protects minority religions at all in the US is the First Amendment of the Constitution, which I remind you protects both speech and religion.
OK.

you are wise beyond your years, grasshopper.

you are going to LOVE the day when you tell all those people that you are an atheist. i recommend that it be the day you are leaving the region.

I plan to do it near the end of my senior year. Of course I'm probably going to college in Missouri so I won't be able to be very open there either, probably.

.

For the 2nd time, would you be prepared to go off with the Christian Peace Keepers?http://www.cpt.org/

I'm still trying to figure out why you couldn't have a silent service. What is wrong with meditation on God? (Or whatever anyone else believes, I'm just using God since this is Zilam's thing...) It's done all the time. Besides, as was said before, in the scenario, it would have been a special event, rather than a decree for forever. If it was a decree, well, then it makes sense to protest your heart out, but consideration for other people's needs is a good thing.

And yes, the First Amendment was very much abused.

<snip>
Well I do beleive that sometime in the future Christians will have the law against us, basically because of end time prophecy and yadda yadda.
Oh. Well, I'm just going to thank you for that "yadda yadda" and move on.
However, I can see the point being where making it seem soley that the Us constitution is out to eat christians alive is dangerous. But in my mind, he did make it seem to have a broader sociall context. I wish i had it on tape to show you all. It was a great service. One of the best i have honestly ever been too. I came from there feeling so energized, because I really poured my heart out into it.

It was a yes or no question. When he let you know that you all had been played, did he say something like, "this is what it might be like for you when you go on your missions to places like communist China. This is what it's already like for Buddhists and the Falun Gong there. We should always value our freedoms and we should always be aware of the oppressions that are faced by others and other faiths, too." Anything like that?

Because if he did not just come right out and say it, if you were left to extract that meaning on your own, then how do you know anyone else got that message? How do you know others in your congregation don't think the First Amendment is a weapon against them?

I am for the initial principles of seperation of church and state. However, the way the actual law was not completely clear caused inconsistancies and made it very easy to abuse. Leading to cases such as being expelled for praying.

Did it also give you an insight into how some non-Christians around the world and even right here in the US also have to practice their faith underground? Did it give you insight into the pressures on pagans and other religious minorities in your own neighborhoods? How about insight into the pressures felt by secular-minded people who are increasingly being denounced as enemies of religion every time they ask to opt out of participating in someone else's observances, until they feel it's just safer to keep their mouths shut and hide from the hostility? While we're at it, did you get any insight into what it might be like to be gay in some communities?

Or did it just make you think that the US Constitution is designed to oppress you?

Do you feel fired up to stand up for everyone's rights? Or just to act as if Da Man is trying to keep you down?

Quoted for truth.

Also I'd like to point out how RUDE it all sounds.
Bascially, you thought you were politely asked to be a little quieter than usual, out of respect for someone else, and like the typical christian who feels put upon, you acted rudely, and got even louder than usual.

I am for the initial principles of seperation of church and state. However, the way the actual law was not completely clear caused inconsistancies and made it very easy to abuse. Leading to cases such as being expelled for praying.

You didn't read the whole first post, eh?
They weren't expelled. Their pastor lied.


Quoted for truth.

Also I'd like to point out how RUDE it all sounds.
Bascially, you thought you were politely asked to be a little quieter than usual, out of respect for someone else, and like the typical christian who feels put upon, you acted rudely, and got even louder than usual.

People like being persecuted. Nobody is sure why, but it's true.

You didn't read the whole first post, eh?
They weren't expelled. Their pastor lied.

No when I used that example, I was refering to Zilams case. A completely different case entierly.

How many times has everyones parents lied to them about things in their childhood? Toothfairy, easter bunny, santa claus, etc? But yet the children have faith in their parents no? I'll give you a better example. Take anyone of Jesus' parables about a particular person, Jesus told them these stories, wheter it was about the Good Samaritan or the Prodigal Son, or whoever, to get a message across, no matter if it really happened or not. Is that a lie? some might say yes, but I say no, since it is giving people a moral lesson, where as a lie is something non moral. So take this pastor's story about the politician. It was a story made to change our view point. He wasn't trying to make us feel anger towards anyone, although some people were angry, but rather he tried to let us see in ourselves wether in times or peril if we could stand for Christ or allow ourselves to be quiet.


your pastor is not your parent, nor is he jesus, nor was he telling you a parable. (nor were you in any kind of peril. losing your freespace isnt a huge persecution, parishes face that kind of thing all the time)

as i was thinking about it while driving my son into town...

none of you had any problem in believing that your pastor was such a wimp to authority that he would tell you to be quiet. you werent defying the imaginary politician, you were defying your pastor. HE is the one who told you to be quiet. the asshole you were rebelling against was HIM.

Quoted for truth.

Also I'd like to point out how RUDE it all sounds.
Bascially, you thought you were politely asked to be a little quieter than usual, out of respect for someone else, and like the typical christian who feels put upon, you acted rudely, and got even louder than usual.

That's because they seem to think that the louder they are, the more God will hear them and not the extremist Muslims... :D

your pastor is not your parent, nor is he jesus, nor was he telling you a parable. (nor were you in any kind of peril. losing your freespace isnt a huge persecution, parishes face that kind of thing all the time)

as i was thinking about it while driving my son into town...

none of you had any problem in believing that your pastor was such a wimp to authority that he would tell you to be quiet. you werent defying the imaginary politician, you were defying your pastor. HE is the one who told you to be quiet. the asshole you were rebelling against was HIM.

That's a good take on the story.

On the other hand, it is typical of charismatic leaders to make up a fictional enemy or threat in order to whip their followers up, confident that those self-same followers will not suss that the only one bringing any kind of restriction against them is their leader. To the followers, the leader is daddy who is both loved and feared and even a little resented. There is a kind of race on to show their loyalty to the cause by showing loyalty to the leader through obedience. And if the order is "disobey," they will do so as vehemently as possible. If the order is "show those enemies how you think for yourselves by doing XYZ," then XYZ will be done, as many times as the leader says. Loyal followers will never, never question their leader, so if he says "Outsiders are making me do this to you," they will believe him. And if he says, "Are you going to follow those outsiders who hate you or me who loves you?", we can guess which they'll pick. Not one of them will ever look to see if there actually are any outsiders out there.

:D Crazy people doing crazy things.

Did anyone speak in tongues during that weird cultish frenzy?

People like being persecuted. Nobody is sure why, but it's true.
No... they like to pretend that they are so that they can impose their will on another. It's a way of getting attention and making other people stop being "mean"...

That's because they seem to think that the louder they are, the more God will hear them and not the extremist Muslims... :D

Dumbass, God doesn't hear any prayers that arn't in English. Your logic is flawed.

Chshhh, ER!

*sigh*
Can this thread die? I mean, the basis is

Never give out your password or credit card number in an instant message conversation
SoldatForXmas: We stood up for our rights because some people are starting to think Christians are wrong and bad and we're neither.
SomePeople: nuh uh, btw welcome to the world
(Empathy has logged off)
P3rs3cut3d666: Yeah. We kind of get shot in our countries.
SoldatForXmas: Yeah. But we're still right.

That's a good take on the story.

On the other hand, it is typical of charismatic leaders to make up a fictional enemy or threat in order to whip their followers up, confident that those self-same followers will not suss that the only one bringing any kind of restriction against them is their leader. To the followers, the leader is daddy who is both loved and feared and even a little resented. There is a kind of race on to show their loyalty to the cause by showing loyalty to the leader through obedience. And if the order is "disobey," they will do so as vehemently as possible. If the order is "show those enemies how you think for yourselves by doing XYZ," then XYZ will be done, as many times as the leader says. Loyal followers will never, never question their leader, so if he says "Outsiders are making me do this to you," they will believe him. And if he says, "Are you going to follow those outsiders who hate you or me who loves you?", we can guess which they'll pick. Not one of them will ever look to see if there actually are any outsiders out there.

thats scary stuff. its hard to guard against.

That's because they seem to think that the louder they are, the more God will hear them and not the extremist Muslims... :D

Dumbass, God doesn't hear any prayers that arn't in English. Your logic is flawed.

Chshhh, ER!

Edit:

*sigh*
Can this thread die? I mean, the basis is

Never give out your password or credit card number in an instant message conversation
SoldatForXmas: We stood up for our rights because some people are starting to think Christians are wrong and bad and we're neither.
SomePeople: nuh uh, btw welcome to the world
(Empathy has logged off)
P3rs3cut3d666: Yeah. We kind of get shot in our countries.
SoldatForXmas: Yeah. But we're still right.

The point you're responding to is that many of us believe that the Pastor was lying. He was pretending that efforts were being made to shut the service down when he was just trying to taunt his flock into kicking up their passion play.

It's not a great thing when a Pastor has such an apathetic flock that rather than let them go away in their faithlessness or try to persuade them with honest appeals to their faith or reason, he has to pull this manipulative bullshit.

People who respond to such things, even if true, aren't "feeling the holy spirit move them," they're feeling happy about getting the chance to indulge in childish contrariansim. In essense it wasn't the spirit of "hallelujah" it was the spirit of "na n-na n-na naaa."

why is it that you understand exactly why this sickens me? you and I don't agree on anything.....weird day.

Lets take this scenario and ramp it up a notch, and then tell me if you can see the problems, once they get a bit bigger.

What if your pastor had instead told you that the government was actually coming to take every member of the church and arrest them? Just imagine that you pastor just happens to be charismatic enough to actually convince you that the threat is real. And in the end of his spiel, he asks the people of his congregation to cooperate, and allow themselves to be arrested.

Then your congregation bravely begins making preparations to resist the government. Barricades are made, weapons are fashioned and passed out. You are fully ready to repel the invaders. In your mind, these people are coming to take you away, and you are fully justified in killing them. At this moment you see them as your enemy.

Then the pastor tells you all that this had been but a test to see if you would defend yourself if persecuted.

Do you think that hostility, that feeling of justification, and in many cases that hate, would just go away?

Back to the reality, do you think that many of your fellow congregation members may now harbor a hostility to the first amendment, honestly thinking that seperation of church and state exists only to silence them? Has your pastor made people see an enemy that doesn't really exist?

Yeah...It really doesnt seem right to "trick" you into a religious experience. Im sure he's very charismatic, but will you actually buy it the next time he suggests something like this? Im afraid I just dont see the point in lying to induce a religious experience, especially when he created a false enemy to do it.

How many times has everyones parents lied to them about things in their childhood? Toothfairy, easter bunny, santa claus, etc? But yet the children have faith in their parents no? I'll give you a better example. Take anyone of Jesus' parables about a particular person, Jesus told them these stories, wheter it was about the Good Samaritan or the Prodigal Son, or whoever, to get a message across, no matter if it really happened or not. Is that a lie? some might say yes, but I say no, since it is giving people a moral lesson, where as a lie is something non moral. So take this pastor's story about the politician. It was a story made to change our view point. He wasn't trying to make us feel anger towards anyone, although some people were angry, but rather he tried to let us see in ourselves wether in times or peril if we could stand for Christ or allow ourselves to be quiet.


Zilam, I still don't understand; how does him doing something wrong justify a right effect? I could ameliorate starvation in starving countries by butchering half of the population and enforcing mandatory canibalism. So many people would no longer be starving, and there would be much more food to go around after half the population had been consumed. Would that be ok? No, because the end doesn't justify the means.

Perhaps you're thinking, "well, that's unfair. Half of the population would be getting evil while half got good, it's only ok if you get more good than bad."
Fine, let's say that we only need to introduce sustainable agriculture to help these starving folks. We need some farming equipment and land. So, we kill all these farmers who don't know how to do anything and steal their land. So that's maybe 2% of the population, with 98% benefiting. So for every person getting the shaft, forty nine people will no longer suffer. Is this the Christian thing to do?

Sounds like bullshit.

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:

At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?

First of all, no, I haven't had an experience like that.

Second, I applaud you and your fellow worshippers actions.

Third, I think the leader's "test" was wrong and that the whole situation should never have been considered. Those tests will come on their own. Trivializing it by making a fake test is unforgivable (figuratively, of course. All but one sin is forgivable).

Well, one can talk the talk all the time, saying that they could stand up against the world , but what use is the talk without the walk?

He wasn't trying to get rawled up or anything, he wanted us to take a look at our lives to see if we could walk the walk, instead of just accepting something like that.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:


Does no one hear me saying it wasn't about the CONSTITUTION? HE JUST USED THAT AS AN EXAMPLE TO POINT OUT THAT WE SHOULD WALK THE WALK,AND NOT JUST TALK THE TALK!

I gotta ask....is walking the walk code for "sing really loud"?

shouldn't you be walking the walk anyway, doesn't it in fact have nothing to do with rebelling against the "big wig politician" in your pastor's lie?

It's not realistic, and that's what I got pissed about. Your pastor is lying to you about what the separation of church and state is, and he's a despicable piece of crap for doing it. And you obviously don't understand the Constitution because you bought it.

In his defense, a lot of people misapply the constitution, including a lot of colleges because they are afraid of appearing to accept religion. So they silence it. That's why what the pastor said is believable. Not that it's correct, but that it's believable.

People who respond to such things, even if true, aren't "feeling the holy spirit move them," they're feeling happy about getting the chance to indulge in childish contrariansim. In essense it wasn't the spirit of "hallelujah" it was the spirit of "na n-na n-na naaa."

I agree and disagree. I'm sure there are a lot of people there who truly were moved spiritually. But I'm also quite sure that there were a lot of people who said "What the heck!?! They can't do this to me!" and did it out of spite to the authority, not because they were sincerely moved.

Good point.

So, Zilam, tell us -- aside from singing yourself hoarse and imagining what it's like to be a victim, what have you done for your god and his children lately?

That's a little harsh. Anything he does should be done quietly (not secretly). He should not brag, and you should not ask.

Mat 7:22

There is a big difference between emotion and "The Spirit". Before you become a missionary I suggest you find that difference.

Your pastor is a neo-pharissee that needs to be removed he is leading all of you to destruction.

This is the sickest thing I have ever heard about a so called christian minister. I can't imagine one Bible verse that supports this action. If you can find one I would like to see it.

Oh did I mention we adopted two children from Haiti last year? Gave them food, medicine, clean clothes etc. And this year we are going to adopt a few more, not to mention Christmas and thansgiving time reachouts, feed the poor, give toys to little kids etc. Yep, we christians sure do only care about ourselves and making ourselves feel good.:rolleyes:

You don't need to justify yourself to Man by your works. You will be or you won't be. They will either see your works and glorify the Lord, or they will see them, laugh, and continue on their way.

Either way, you're not going to win this argument by quoting your good deeds. Just ignore this one.

We might have laws that seemingly protect Christianity, but really does that ensure that its not persecuted against? Have you ever been a christian and had to face ridicule every day in HS, and even at Uni, just because you beleive that a man died on a cross to save people? Until you have been spat upon, beat, and verbally abused, i don't think you can say who is and isn't persecuted.

I agree with you here.

Conservative or Orthodox (not Eastern Orthodox) Christians are always persecuted. They are protected by the law. If I took something to court, I would win. But am I going to take every insult and punch and whatever given to me to court? No. I would never leave the courtroom if I were to do that.

The problem is that so many think that because the law says "No" that it doesn't happen. Well, the law says "No" to murder and rape and whole lot of other things, too, but they happen all the time. Same with persecution, including of Conservative/Orthodox Christians.

Oh did I mention we adopted two children from Haiti last year? Gave them food, medicine, clean clothes etc. And this year we are going to adopt a few more, not to mention Christmas and thansgiving time reachouts, feed the poor, give toys to little kids etc. Yep, we christians sure do only care about ourselves and making ourselves feel good.:rolleyes:

That's why you give good clean money instead of going to the poorest place you can find and really get your hands dirty.

The priests that passed by the man beaten on the side of the road would be soooo proud of you.

I agree with you here.

Conservative or Orthodox (not Eastern Orthodox) Christians are always persecuted. They are protected by the law. If I took something to court, I would win. But am I going to take every insult and punch and whatever given to me to court? No. I would never leave the courtroom if I were to do that.

The problem is that so many think that because the law says "No" that it doesn't happen. Well, the law says "No" to murder and rape and whole lot of other things, too, but they happen all the time. Same with persecution, including of Conservative/Orthodox Christians.

The law doesn't say no, at least, not to most "persecutions", up to but not including someone seriously threatening you because of religon.
Now, 70% or so of America is some christian denomination.
Wouldn't you say that the religions that are sins by Christian belief (and that's all religions, for that matter) would be persecuted a hell of a lot more.

That's a little harsh. Anything he does should be done quietly (not secretly). He should not brag, and you should not ask.
I seriously doubt that Muravyets was asking for his own information, I think what he was getting at is that Zilam might want to think about this....not that he has to come up with a list. However, I haven't debated with him in a while, so I may have forgotten how he is...but probably not.

Mat 7:22

There is a big difference between emotion and "The Spirit". Before you become a missionary I suggest you find that difference.

Your pastor is a neo-pharissee that needs to be removed he is leading all of you to destruction.

This is the sickest thing I have ever heard about a so called christian minister. I can't imagine one Bible verse that supports this action. If you can find one I would like to see it.
yes. You get it too....why it sickens me.

Toothfairy, easter bunny, santa claus, etc?

Against them all.

You don't know anyone. The only people you know are those in Scripture and yourself. You can highly, highly, highly X 10 to the infinite power suspect something of someone, but you can never no their heart.

No you highly, highy, blah, blah this man. Good. You should trust people. But you should always check with what is. The man lied to you. He lied to you to get a desired spiritual reaction. Now whether he is in the habit of lying in this manner is another issue. But I urge you to consider carefully anything he says in the future. Be as innocent as doves, but as wise as serpents.

The law doesn't say no, at least, not to most "persecutions", up to but not including someone seriously threatening you because of religon.
Now, 70% or so of America is some christian denomination.
Wouldn't you say that the religions that are sins by Christian belief (and that's all religions, for that matter) would be persecuted a hell of a lot more.

Yes and no.

By the establishment? No. Definitly no. It's no longer in style to persecute nonChristians. After all, they had to put up with those evil Christians tormenting them for millenia on end already.

By the people? Yes, sadly. But I would like to point out that there is a difference between persecution and aggressive conversion attempts. Persecution is malicious in intent. Aggressive conversion attempts are not nice. But they are good in intent. They are trying to get the person to see the error of his ways or ideas or what have you through blunt means. Now that is a fine line between the two in practice, I admit. But most Christians, true Christians, not just your Sunday "I believe in God" stock try very hard to not persecute. Though we are all human and are therefore sinful. Which explains; it does not excuse.

That's a little harsh. Anything he does should be done quietly (not secretly). He should not brag, and you should not ask.

I do not think the question was unwarranted. Zilam created the impression that he felt he had done something important for his god by participating in this event (for want of a better word for the pastor's stunt). He seemed to feel it demonstrated his dedication to his religion. Another poster pointed out that he considered good works to be more valuable than verbal protestations. I happen to agree with that view. So, yes, I challenged Zilam to account for whether he ever demonstrated his dedication in a way that was not about being a victim and was of value to society at large. He did so. I have no further argument with him on that score.

As for what Zilam and I should be doing, I was not aware that Christians are not supposed to answer questions about the good works they do. I am not a Christian, and my religion does not have that taboo.

I seriously doubt that Muravyets was asking for his own information, I think what he was getting at is that Zilam might want to think about this....not that he has to come up with a list. However, I haven't debated with him in a while, so I may have forgotten how he is...but probably not.

His comment was very sarcastic and cynical and whatever his intent was, I think it was very rude. And if he was truly asking, I pointed out that he shouldn't be. If he wasn't truly asking, then maybe he got something out of my response any way.

I seriously doubt that Muravyets was asking for his own information, I think what he was getting at is that Zilam might want to think about this....not that he has to come up with a list. However, I haven't debated with him in a while, so I may have forgotten how he is...but probably not.

Nope, you're right. I wasn't asking for an itemized list. "What have you done for us lately?" is a classic expression of cynicism or doubt. It's symbolic, not literal.

His comment was very sarcastic and cynical and whatever his intent was, I think it was very rude. And if he was truly asking, I pointed out that he shouldn't be. If he wasn't truly asking, then maybe he got something out of my response any way.

why shouldn't he ask? are we not to be held accountable to the world? (as Christians)

If someone asked me how often I pray, what I did in service to God today, or when I last read the Bible I would have no problem answering.

His comment was very sarcastic and cynical and whatever his intent was, I think it was very rude. And if he was truly asking, I pointed out that he shouldn't be. If he wasn't truly asking, then maybe he got something out of my response any way.

Oh, dear, another toe stepped on. Apologies, but you'll have to get used to it. That's just how the words come out of my New York brain.

EDIT: In other words, I sound cynical because I am cynical. In general. About everything.

I do not think the question was unwarranted. Zilam created the impression that he felt he had done something important for his god by participating in this event (for want of a better word for the pastor's stunt). He seemed to feel it demonstrated his dedication to his religion. Another poster pointed out that he considered good works to be more valuable than verbal protestations. I happen to agree with that view. So, yes, I challenged Zilam to account for whether he ever demonstrated his dedication in a way that was not about being a victim and was of value to society at large. He did so. I have no further argument with him on that score.

As for what Zilam and I should be doing, I was not aware that Christians are not supposed to answer questions about the good works they do. I am not a Christian, and my religion does not have that taboo.

Well, I'm sorry then. Your comment angered me a bit: it sounded very rude to me.

There is no taboo exactly. It's more of the idea that if you are doing works for God's glory (which should be the reason you do anything), you shouldn't want recognition. So, I shouldn't tell you that every Wednesday I blah, blah, blah... And you should not ask me to give an account of my works. That is God's job. Now, you can ask me to explain what I did when I blah, blah, blah... Or how I confronted problems in such and such a program. But never ask someone for an account of their works. They are all filthy rags. And you are not to judge them for their worth anyway. You can judge the sinfullness of them, because God tells us of actions sinfullness, but not the worth of good works. and you should not look at the heart. That is God's job.

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:




At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?


It's fanatical things like this (other than the gay-bashing) that will ensure that I will NEVER become a Christian (or for that matter a Scientologist if you just change a few words to "Thetan", "L. Ron Hubbard", and "Lord Xenu").

why shouldn't he ask? are we not to be held accountable to the world? (as Christians)

If someone asked me how often I pray, what I did in service to God today, or when I last read the Bible I would have no problem answering.

The question as I understood it, which may or may not have been a correct understanding, was to give an account of his works. Not to explain them or expound upon them, but to say "This has justified me in Man's eyes." Well, it's true that works justify us before Man. But, we are not concerned with that. We are not to seek justification before Man. The justification leads them to repentence, but that is not our goal. Our goal is to glorify God through our works. Also, if we give an account of our works, it leads to pride more often than not.

I am not against talking about a mission trip or explaining how I accomplished something in such and such a program. But giving an account of oneself is quite different, though I am finding trouble in expressing how.

It's fanatical things like this (other than the gay-bashing) that will ensure that I will NEVER become a Christian (or for that matter a Scientologist if you just change a few words to "Thetan", "L. Ron Hubbard", and "Lord Xenu").

Not all Christians get swept up in emotionalism. Which is both a loss and a gain.

The question as I understood it, which may or may not have been a correct understanding, was to give an account of his works. Not to explain them or expound upon them, but to say "This has justified me in Man's eyes." Well, it's true that works justify us before Man. But, we are not concerned with that. We are not to seek justification before Man. The justification leads them to repentence, but that is not our goal. Our goal is to glorify God through our works. Also, if we give an account of our works, it leads to pride more often than not.

I am not against talking about a mission trip or explaining how I accomplished something in such and such a program. But giving an account of oneself is quite different, though I am finding trouble in expressing how.

we glorify God through our actions if we have a proper motivation at the time. I don't see how being accountable in your walk brings any less glory to God.

we glorify God through our actions if we have a proper motivation at the time. I don't see how being accountable in your walk brings any less glory to God.

Being held accountalbe (which I am in total favor of - remeber our Church discipline discussion) is different from giving an account. It's really just semantics, I guess.

Held Accountable: Why did you do this?

Giving Account: Why are you worthy? What did you do that is worthy?

Not all Christians get swept up in emotionalism. Which is both a loss and a gain.

I don't think emotions lead people to moral truth.

First of all, no, I haven't had an experience like that.

Second, I applaud you and your fellow worshippers actions.

Third, I think the leader's "test" was wrong and that the whole situation should never have been considered. Those tests will come on their own. Trivializing it by making a fake test is unforgivable (figuratively, of course. All but one sin is forgivable).

What's the unforgivable sin?

Being held accountalbe (which I am in total favor of - remeber our Church discipline discussion) is different from giving an account. It's really just semantics, I guess.

Held Accountable: Why did you do this?

Giving Account: Why are you worthy? What did you do that is worthy?

held accountable: how are you doing in your walk? what are you doing to facilitate that?

I don't think emotions lead people to moral truth.

No, but they do help with righteous anger and sorrow for the the unsaved, etc.

What's the unforgivable sin?

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Most people think it's the refusal to repent. So, if God will only forgive you if you repent...

held accountable: how are you doing in your walk? what are you doing to facilitate that?

Eh, still different from giving account.

Before this thread ends I have to throw in that "separation of church and state" is in the Bible so it matters not if it is in the constitution. A pastor should know this.

Eh, still different from giving account.

Zilam was asked a good question, in fact it's one that needs to be asked more often "what are you doing?"

I don't think that his singing songs really loud is of any service to God because of the motivation behind it, he wanted to rebel, God is not a God of rebellion, it says that quite a few times in the Bible.

He was going on and on and on about walking the walk, he was questioned as to other than singing really loud what he had been personally doing to "walk the walk", I don't see the problem with the question. I did see a problem with his answer, and I have a problem with your idea that he should ignore the question all together.

No, but they do help with righteous anger and sorrow for the the unsaved, etc.

I suppose so, I think that as long as people are motivated to do things by emotions that it's the same as doing it for money or anything else.


Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Most people think it's the refusal to repent. So, if God will only forgive you if you repent...

I'm confused by your answer.

*sighs*

So, anybody have some fresh ideas as to how exactly one might go about eliciting silence from them thar Christians, anyway? They'll certainly never go unheard in some circles.

Before this thread ends I have to throw in that "separation of church and state" is in the Bible so it matters not if it is in the constitution. A pastor should know this.

Where?

Zilam was asked a good question, in fact it's one that needs to be asked more often "what are you doing?"

I don't think that his singing songs really loud is of any service to God because of the motivation behind it, he wanted to rebel, God is not a God of rebellion, it says that quite a few times in the Bible.

He was going on and on and on about walking the walk, he was questioned as to other than singing really loud what he had been personally doing to "walk the walk", I don't see the problem with the question. I did see a problem with his answer, and I have a problem with your idea that he should ignore the question all together.

As a rhetorical question used to make one think, I agree with you. I was talking about if the question were really asked to someone, which I had thought M... whathisname was doing.

EDIT: Muravyets is whathisname.

EDIT 2: Whathismane is really whatshername.

I'm confused by your answer.

We are commanded to repent, so it is a sin not to do so.

God says we must repent to be forgiven. So if we don't repent, none of our other sins would be forgiven. If we had repented, those lies, impure thoughts, etc, would have been forgiven. But they weren't because we refused to repent. And if you refuse to repent, how can you repent of the refusal? You can't. So you are not forgiven.

As a rhetorical question used to make one think, I agree with you. I was talking about if the question were really asked to someone, which I had thought M... whathisname was doing.

EDIT: Muravyets is whathisname.

Whatshername, btw.

Whatshername, btw.

My mistake and my apologies.

We are commanded to repent, so it is a sin not to do so.

God says we must repent to be forgiven. So if we don't repent, none of our other sins would be forgiven. If we had repented, those lies, impure thoughts, etc, would have been forgiven. But they weren't because we refused to repent. And if you refuse to repent, how can you repent of the refusal? You can't. So you are not forgiven.

I see what you mean, I just don't really think about that since someone who would be in that situation would likely have other sins to worry about....
Also, that would only apply at the time of death so it's not really unforgivable, since it can be forgiven if the person asks for forgiveness. Although the person is no longer actively comitting that sin it was still committed at one point.

Whatshername, btw.

sorry.... I used the male pronouns first I think, I said in my post though that it's been a while since I debated with you.....like a year or something.

sorry, again. I hate it when people add a penis to me.

I see what you mean, I just don't really think about that since someone who would be in that situation would likely have other sins to worry about....
Also, that would only apply at the time of death so it's not really unforgivable, since it can be forgiven if the person asks for forgiveness. Although the person is no longer actively comitting that sin it was still committed at one point.

Semantics

If you refuse to do something, that means you never do it. But that definition of the word is not consistent, so...

Where?

Mat 22:21
Mark 12:17
Luke 20:25

Most obvious. There are others. Several teach to be humble and not to look for places of honor.

Remember that Jesus was killed by religious conservatives that had the political power to get audience with both the governor and king in the middle of the night. And the influence to use government soldiers.

After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard".

I hope that your pastor's done penance for lying to you all, even if it was supposed to be for the greater good.

Would he have actually scolded you if you had done what you may have thought best to protect your congregation?

Even in the midst of something like that, we were able to stand up for Christ.

No. Sadly, what you all did was stand up for what a "good preacher" your pastor is... it wasn't helpful to your fellow man, and it did not glorify Christ, but I guarantee your pastor is patting himself on the back for this.

Zilam was asked a good question, in fact it's one that needs to be asked more often "what are you doing?"

I don't think that his singing songs really loud is of any service to God because of the motivation behind it, he wanted to rebel, God is not a God of rebellion, it says that quite a few times in the Bible.

He was going on and on and on about walking the walk, he was questioned as to other than singing really loud what he had been personally doing to "walk the walk", I don't see the problem with the question. I did see a problem with his answer, and I have a problem with your idea that he should ignore the question all together.


What was the problem with my answer? The fact I am going to give up everything I have to go serve the Lord? If thats a problem, then too bad. Look I am not the perfect christian, and ill never be, and ill never claim to be. But I think I do a pretty alright job. I help whom ever I can, when ever I can, with what ever I have. I have never turned away anyone that's asked for help. I simply made this whole stupid thread to see if anyone had a cleansing experience like this. I went to service all bummed, wasn't really into it, then this happened and i poured all that i had in me out into my praise today, and I was overwhelmingly cleansed. Sure I strive to praise God in everything I do, and a lot of times I fail, thats my mistake. I'm sorry I am not perfect. I was just a little happy that our congregation stood up to something, even if it was a hoax/lie made by the pastor, and even if it was a small one at that. I think we came together than most Churches do in their entire existence, and if there is just a little hope of having a unified body, then I think I will be happy about it and strive to do whatever it takes to strengthen that bond.

We might have laws that seemingly protect Christianity, but really does that ensure that its not persecuted against? Have you ever been a christian and had to face ridicule every day in HS, and even at Uni, just because you beleive that a man died on a cross to save people? Until you have been spat upon, beat, and verbally abused, i don't think you can say who is and isn't persecuted.

Where do you go to school? I live in New York, I openly affirm myself a Christian, and I have NEVER been treated that way.

No. Sadly, what you all did was stand up for what a "good preacher" your pastor is... it wasn't helpful to your fellow man, and it did not glorify Christ, but I guarantee your pastor is patting himself on the back for this.

Sure it might not have solved all the problems in the world, but my Church doesn't exactly just sit there and pat itself on the back. We do help out alot, more than any other organization on campus, secular or none. So thats got to say something about us. Im not bragging, just trying to defend. Like I said before this was merely a test to see if we could look in ourselves to stand against any form of opression, granted it was seemingly unrealistic and small compared to losing one's life or something. However, the message was that we shoulb be bold and without hindrance. He tried to make a connection between what happened today and what happened with Peter and John when they stood before Annas and Caiaphas, and they stood their ground, even with the threat of punishment. And thats what the lesson was, to make sure we never falter, are never silent, no matter what the punishment is. We should always be willing to be open with our faith.

Where do you go to school? I live in New York, I openly affirm myself a Christian, and I have NEVER been treated that way.


I went to a nice little school in mt vernon, Illinois. In southern Illinois to be precise, which is a rather conservative area. But to all the guys, i was just a bible reading nerd(they actually called me a "fag"). Not a day would go by that I didn't recieve some sort of abusive comment, or was pushed, or spat upon. Even here at school, a public university, if i wear a shirt that says anything about christ, i hear rude comments. Its insane. Its not like i am going around force converting or anything. Im just wearing a shirt, or carrying a bible. Nothing offensive about that, right?

Before this thread ends I have to throw in that "separation of church and state" is in the Bible so it matters not if it is in the constitution. A pastor should know this.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

I went to a nice little school in mt vernon, Illinois. In southern Illinois to be precise, which is a rather conservative area. But to all the guys, i was just a bible reading nerd(they actually called me a "fag"). Not a day would go by that I didn't recieve some sort of abusive comment, or was pushed, or spat upon. Even here at school, a public university, if i wear a shirt that says anything about christ, i hear rude comments. Its insane. Its not like i am going around force converting or anything. Im just wearing a shirt, or carrying a bible. Nothing offensive about that, right?

Odd. And we hear so much about how much more Godly the midwest is.

Odd. And we hear so much about how much more Godly the midwest is.

I know. Just goes to show you that you can't always be so general with your assumptions.


-edit- not YOU Kat. A rhetoric You. :p

At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?
Your self-delusion disgusts me.

My mistake and my apologies.

No problem.

sorry.... I used the male pronouns first I think, I said in my post though that it's been a while since I debated with you.....like a year or something.

sorry, again. I hate it when people add a penis to me.

It has been a long time, hasn't it? How ya been? :)

I don't mind the pronoun thing. I do it, too. Usually, I don't correct people until the third or fourth mention and then only if the conversation seems likely to go somewhere.

Odd. And we hear so much about how much more Godly the midwest is.

We also hear about how much more intolerant the midwest is. Makes a kind of sense, in a way...

I simply made this whole stupid thread to see if anyone had a cleansing experience like this. I went to service all bummed, wasn't really into it, then this happened and i poured all that i had in me out into my praise today, and I was overwhelmingly cleansed. .

In answer to this. Yes.

I once went to a baptism ceremony for a group of drug users, prostitiutes, etc. The mission that they were joining didn't have a baptismal area and none of the regular churches would let us pollute theirs. We finally found a church in the process of being built. Bare walls, we sat on the bare floor. We could use it under the condition that we went late at night so no one would see what was happening. Only the pastor of the new church would know about it, he wouldn't attend so he could deny it, and none of his congregation was to know. Well, the first man went in and it was like lightning struck him. Jumping and praising God. Some of the church "leaders" thought he was going over board so pulled him aside. The next went in and the same thing happened. Except this time the man doing the ceremony was sapped of his strength and had to sit on the side for a while. Then a third, fourth, etc., each time the spirit was greater. The minister was actually swaying trying to stand as energy was being drained from him. When the schedualled baptisms were done, the minister said, "does anyone else wish to be baptised?" ---later he would say that he didn't intend to say it and felt the words were beyond his power. Well, a line formed. With each baptism the spirit spread and more went to the line. After some time, it finally came to a close. The minister could only sit as his power was completely drained. He had to be driven home. Everyone was sopping wet from all of the hugs and praise.

It was truely an experience that even the little children (at the time, this was several years ago) say they will never forget.

sorry, again. I hate it when people add a penis to me.

Isn't that how you got your children? :p

-snip-

I love to hear stories like that. I mean it shows the He still works today. Many people say God is dead or doesn't exist, but come on, this stuff only furthers my beliefs.

Here's what kills me about the whole thing.

You keep talking about "standing up to oppression in times like these."

But...there are no "times like these"...you weren't oppressed, you weren't tortured for your beliefs, you weren't driven out of town, you weren't fed to the lions, you weren't converted by the sword, you weren't forced to worship in secret.

You live in a country that protects your fundamental right to worship whatever way you want, and if you actually knew a bit about the very laws that KEEP times like these from BEING "times like these" you would have realized that.

And even if it WERE true, all that seemed to happen was that your university, which allows you access to its facilities and allows you free range to worship as you wish (ignoring the fact that as a public school they kind of have to) asked you, for one evening, to step down and respect the viewpoints of someone who disagreed with you, someone the university went through great time and expense to gather, someone OTHER students at the university would be willing to see.

Is that what your faith teaches? If someone has a viewpoint that disagrees with you and wishes to have his voice heard, yell as loud as you can to drown you out? Is that humility? Is that kindness? That's egoism, selfishness, and a fair bit of just plain old spitefulness. I'm sure Jesus would be proud, way to turn that other cheek there.

And instead of respecting that, instead of honoring the institution whose rules you agreed to, instead of maybe...I dunno, MOVING SOMEWHERE ELSE, you broke down crying, considered it a fundamental attack on your faith, and deliberatly disrespected the will of the universtiy, and disrespected the wishes of someone coming to campus.

There are those who have died, those who have been tortured, those who have been made martyrs, those who have been burned alive for their faith, and you consider it some great sense of accomplishment that you righteously "stuck it to the man" because on ONE night, for ONE time, you THOUGHT the university said "please take it somewhere else", and have the nerve to call yourself oppressed and compare yourself to true opporession, and those who have TRULY stood up, TRULY sacrificed, and TRULY paid in blood?

Your misplaced sense of bravado sickens me.

What's the unforgivable sin?

I believe that the dogma states all sins are forgivable if you truly wish to be forgiven, which makes the only unforgivable sin the one that leaves you unable to repent.

Suicide.

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:




At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?
Hmm... well, the church events I try to go to generally are energetic enough that we couldn't shut up if we tried... unfortunately that remains true even at 1 in the morning.

I think the thing that bugs me most about the story is the way the pastor is making it look like the separation of church and state is designed to make it more difficult on churches to worship the way they choose, when it's exactly the opposite. I mean, I know that the hard-core asshole right-wingers like to make it sound like government is out to burn your bibles so they can motivate their members to vote for their candidates, but the fact is that the First Amendment is meant to keep government out of church, and it does so, for the most part.

Unless you're a liberal church in California whose pastor preaches a non-partisan antiwar message a month before the 2004 election. Then the IRS is all up in your shit. But I digress.

Unless there is an overcorrection on the part of local government that results in supression of religious beliefs. Banning voluntary religious themed groups from meeting on school property is just another form of oppression. I could come up with many, many examples of this, but will suffice with the following examples. Pretending that you are still the oppressed in this day and age is more than a little disingenuous, Nazz.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11715
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/496/226.html

Unless there is an overcorrection on the part of local government that results in supression of religious beliefs. Banning voluntary religious themed groups from meeting on school property is just another form of oppression. I could come up with many, many examples of this, but will suffice with the following examples. Pretending that you are still the oppressed in this day and age is more than a little disingenuous, Nazz.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11715
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/496/226.html

His reference is an actual situation. A guy was speaking out against the war to his congregation and the IRS showed up.

Martyrs.

The pope himself said words to ignite terror against catholics, to have martyrs.

The Radical Suicide Islamist are martyrs.
The crowd believes they are interesting people.
They are the models.

Please be a martyrs, like in Saigon, let burn the monks.
Give the pope to the lions.
Explode their head in a bus.
fuck the student in any stupid university.

But please have your own martyr.
A martyr in each family is a minimum.
No martyr ? Then you'll be sent to a camp...

I'm a martyr. Martyr of schizophrenia, martyr of bushevism. :headbang:

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following:




At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?

Now see, you're the kind of religious person I can actually respect, Zilam. You actually, truly believe in your religion, keep your faith strong, and love it all, while not being hypocritical, or just giving lip service to it. Me, I'm an athiest, and I rarely respect anyone who believes in a religion, so this is quite a compliment, as you can see.

Semantics

If you refuse to do something, that means you never do it. But that definition of the word is not consistent, so...

From my theological perspective once a sin has been comitted it does not become uncommited unless you formally reconcile yourself to God. That's probably why I see it differently than you.


I believe that the dogma states all sins are forgivable if you truly wish to be forgiven, which makes the only unforgivable sin the one that leaves you unable to repent.

Suicide.
I don't think even that is unforgivable. Since, most people that commit suicide could be argued to be in a state of poor mental health, specifically, they are going against the most natural mindset of self preservation for what are sometimes reasons that don't seem 'worth it' to a stable person. I don't believe that these people are truly culpable for their actions.

I love to hear stories like that. I mean it shows the He still works today. Many people say God is dead or doesn't exist, but come on, this stuff only furthers my beliefs.

It almost hampers mine. How does being swept up in emotion make you believe in God? Reasoning will lead us to God, not emotions (which will change) or fanaticism.

Mat 22:21
Mark 12:17
Luke 20:25

Most obvious. There are others. Several teach to be humble and not to look for places of honor.

Remember that Jesus was killed by religious conservatives that had the political power to get audience with both the governor and king in the middle of the night. And the influence to use government soldiers.

Bull! And whatever ending you want.

Look at the Pentateuch. It seems to be very clear that religion and government are to be quite connected.

What Jesus was speaking to is the issue of taxes. And what He was saying is that both require different things of the people (in the sense that God = Church) and you are to give what is required to both, not ignoring one or the other. And not giving things to the government that belong to the Church and the reverse. Like the responsiblity of charity being taken from the Church and given to the government.

But no where does He say the two are to be separate.

I believe that the dogma states all sins are forgivable if you truly wish to be forgiven, which makes the only unforgivable sin the one that leaves you unable to repent.

Suicide.

Suicide is forgivable. Though we are commanded to repent of each particular sin, we are forgiven if we repent generally.

So if you get in a fight with your mom, call her a whore, walk out the front door and get hit by a bus, you will be forgiven. If you repented generally and declared Christ your Lord and Savior. Same principle with suicide.

You live in a country that protects your fundamental right to worship whatever way you want, and if you actually knew a bit about the very laws that KEEP times like these from BEING "times like these" you would have realized that.

More importantly, he lives in a country where the people who are working hardest to protect his freedoms are people who don't share his beliefs. The people who are fighting hardest to protect religious liberty are the secular members of society who are routinely demonized by wingnut conservatives and right-wing religious organizations.

What was the problem with my answer? The fact I am going to give up everything I have to go serve the Lord?
what exactly do you think that means?
If thats a problem, then too bad.
it's a problem to me if you think that singing really loud is "giving up everything to serve the Lord"
Look I am not the perfect christian, and ill never be, and ill never claim to be. But I think I do a pretty alright job.
nobody is perfect. I help whom ever I can, when ever I can, with what ever I have. I have never turned away anyone that's asked for help. I simply made this whole stupid thread to see if anyone had a cleansing experience like this.
oh, well then, I have.
I went to service all bummed, wasn't really into it, then this happened and i poured all that i had in me out into my praise today, and I was overwhelmingly cleansed.
so you went to worship with a bad attitude, had a falsely inspired emotional event, and then figured out that church is a rush...
Sure I strive to praise God in everything I do, and a lot of times I fail, thats my mistake. I'm sorry I am not perfect. I was just a little happy that our congregation stood up to something, even if it was a hoax/lie made by the pastor, and even if it was a small one at that.
I could care less what you congregation does, I worry about you. I especially worry about a congregation that
a) needs this type of exercise
b) falls for it
c) has a pastor who would do it

I think we came together than most Churches do in their entire existence, and if there is just a little hope of having a unified body, then I think I will be happy about it and strive to do whatever it takes to strengthen that bond.
good for you, but true unity, Biblical unity doesn't come from lies, emotional manipulation, and singing really loud. It comes from each and every member being on their knees everyday in prayer, being submissive to God's call, being open to His will, and daily taking up your cross for Him. It's hard work, it doesn't come from a single church service where you think you are rebeling against some imagninary situation that you believe to be true.


Sure it might not have solved all the problems in the world, but my Church doesn't exactly just sit there and pat itself on the back. We do help out alot, more than any other organization on campus, secular or none. So thats got to say something about us. Im not bragging, just trying to defend. Like I said before this was merely a test to see if we could look in ourselves to stand against any form of opression, granted it was seemingly unrealistic and small compared to losing one's life or something. However, the message was that we shoulb be bold and without hindrance. He tried to make a connection between what happened today and what happened with Peter and John when they stood before Annas and Caiaphas, and they stood their ground, even with the threat of punishment. And thats what the lesson was, to make sure we never falter, are never silent, no matter what the punishment is. We should always be willing to be open with our faith.
That's a good lesson, but I think he went about it in a very wrong way.

I went to a nice little school in mt vernon, Illinois. In southern Illinois to be precise, which is a rather conservative area. But to all the guys, i was just a bible reading nerd(they actually called me a "fag"). Not a day would go by that I didn't recieve some sort of abusive comment, or was pushed, or spat upon. Even here at school, a public university, if i wear a shirt that says anything about christ, i hear rude comments. Its insane. Its not like i am going around force converting or anything. Im just wearing a shirt, or carrying a bible. Nothing offensive about that, right?
we don't have the right not to be offended, nobody does. In fact I tell that to people when they tell me it's offensive to them for me and my kids to pray before we eat at the local fast food restraunt.

You have a victim complex, and it's not getting you anything but angry.

Eph 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

kinda puts things in perspective doesn't it?

If you are focusing your mind on the people in this world, you are looking in the wrong direction, if you are focusing your energy on them, your motivations for anything will not be to the glory of God.





It has been a long time, hasn't it? How ya been? :)
pretty good.

Bull! And whatever ending you want.

Look at the Pentateuch. It seems to be very clear that religion and government are to be quite connected.

What Jesus was speaking to is the issue of taxes. And what He was saying is that both require different things of the people (in the sense that God = Church) and you are to give what is required to both, not ignoring one or the other. And not giving things to the government that belong to the Church and the reverse. Like the responsiblity of charity being taken from the Church and given to the government.

But no where does He say the two are to be separate.

The Pentateuch? Come on, now. Edwardis. You don't want to go there, because if you do, if you're going to argue that ancient Israel is an example for the modern church, then you have to accept all the other shit that goes along with it, like the dietary restriction from Leviticus and the ritual cleansing and polygamy and brother-in-law marriage and all the rest. Be careful before you try walking down that road, my friend.

Bull! And whatever ending you want.

Look at the Pentateuch. It seems to be very clear that religion and government are to be quite connected.

What Jesus was speaking to is the issue of taxes. And what He was saying is that both require different things of the people (in the sense that God = Church) and you are to give what is required to both, not ignoring one or the other. And not giving things to the government that belong to the Church and the reverse. Like the responsiblity of charity being taken from the Church and given to the government.

But no where does He say the two are to be separate.
uh...I don't think so.

The Pentateuch? Come on, now. Edwardis. You don't want to go there, because if you do, if you're going to argue that ancient Israel is an example for the modern church, then you have to accept all the other shit that goes along with it, like the dietary restriction from Leviticus and the ritual cleansing and polygamy and brother-in-law marriage and all the rest. Be careful before you try walking down that road, my friend.

No, I don't.

Some things were repealed or changed. Such as dietary laws. The Gentiles don't need to follow them, but Jews (even if they are Christians) are still to follow them.

uh...I don't think so.

What particularly don't you think so? The whole thing, or a particular point? What?

What particularly don't you think so? The whole thing, or a particular point? What?

I think the enitre old testament is a huge freaking public service announcement about how theocracy is wrong.

Today I went to the campus church at the University Union. It was a normal worship service. We all gathered in and sat, and then began to sing a song. Halfway through the song, the service pastor told us the following: ...
At that point they locked the doors, turned off the lights, and had one band member stay up on stage with his acoustic guitar, and he was going to play a few songs. We were furious. Several members began to cry. But the funniest thing happened, instead of being quiet with our worship, we sang loud and with such great passion. It was the first service I have been to where I have felt the Spirit just flood down and fill everyone. Everyone was just crying out to God and we had Him there with us, and our hands were raised, and we sang sang so loudly, and just praised Him. It was the greatest feeling ever, as if we were all raised to a new level, perhaps right in front of God Himself at that point. After about 2 or 3 songs, the service pastor come back up and told us we had been "Punk'd", and that this was a test of our faith, to see if we would be quiet in the midst of a particular danger, IE losing our place of worship, or if we would be like Peter and John in the early part of Acts, where they say "We can't help but to speak what we have seen and heard". This is definitely something that will stay with me forever. I mean, that initial felling of just anger, and being upset about having to be silent, but then it was washed away by our praises to God. I feel so...free inside now. I think this was a very needed step in my walk. So does anyone else have a similar experience?


Every time when I get angry. It's called a adrenaline shoot. Makes you feel tired but sometimes contented afterwards.

No, I don't.

Some things were repealed or changed. Such as dietary laws. The Gentiles don't need to follow them, but Jews (even if they are Christians) are still to follow them.

You can't have it both ways. If the Pentateuch rules, then it rules.

But more importantly, what did Jesus have to say on the matter? I believe he said something like "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, then my followers would have struggled so that I may not be given up." That sounds an awful lot like a separation of church and state to me.

Just letting you know, I may be an atheist now, but I was a fundy before, and I'll clean your clock on this debate.

No, I don't.

Some things were repealed or changed. Such as dietary laws. The Gentiles don't need to follow them, but Jews (even if they are Christians) are still to follow them.

Cute. Citing the bible to beat up your opponents, but picking and choosing which parts of it you'll adhere to yourself. :rolleyes:

Every time when I get angry. It's called a adrenaline shoot. Makes you feel tired but sometimes contented afterwards.

You can also get that feeling from good sex.

Cute. Citing the bible to beat up your opponents, but picking and choosing which parts of it you'll adhere to yourself. :rolleyes:
It's called, "do as I say, not as I do.", a concept embraced by American Protestants...

I think the enitre old testament is a huge freaking public service announcement about how theocracy is wrong.

Then why did got set it up that way.

It only went bad when God let the people have a King.

Then why did got set it up that way.

It only went bad when God let the people have a King.

so God was wrong for letting them have a king?

You can't have it both ways. If the Pentateuch rules, then it rules.

But more importantly, what did Jesus have to say on the matter? I believe he said something like "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, then my followers would have struggled so that I may not be given up." That sounds an awful lot like a separation of church and state to me.

Just letting you know, I may be an atheist now, but I was a fundy before, and I'll clean your clock on this debate.

Difference between Kingdom and kingdom. Is God's Kingdom on this world? No. But there can be a kingdom or a government that follows God's commands. In fact He set it up that way.

Difference between Kingdom and kingdom. Is God's Kingdom on this world? No. But there can be a kingdom or a government that follows God's commands. In fact He set it up that way.

show me, where He set it up that way.

so God was wrong for letting them have a king?

No.

God said "You want a King? Fine. Here you go, but you're gonna suffer because it. And He was right. Look at all the problems monarchy causes even outside of a religious context.

so God was wrong for letting them have a king?
I thought God was supposed to be perfect, and not like those Greek gods known for their human-like flaws...

Then why did got set it up that way.

It only went bad when God let the people have a King.

So, theocracy is good because god set it up that way, but it only went bad when god put a king in charge?

Do you know what "theocracy" means?

Cute. Citing the bible to beat up your opponents, but picking and choosing which parts of it you'll adhere to yourself. :rolleyes:

No. I don't pick and choose. There are some things which I do not do, but I should. But just because I don't do them doesn't mean that you are any less off the hook. It just means that I am further onto it.

No.

God said "You want a King? Fine. Here you go, but you're gonna suffer because it. And He was right. Look at all the problems monarchy causes even outside of a religious context.

theocracy, that's where they screwed up.

I thought God was supposed to be perfect, and not like those Greek gods known for their human-like flaws...
He is, but apparently Edwardis doesn't think so.

Difference between Kingdom and kingdom. Is God's Kingdom on this world? No. But there can be a kingdom or a government that follows God's commands. In fact He set it up that way.

Or it could be that Jesus was speaking about having the kingdom of God in your heart, and that it should be a personal issue that would be tainted by trying to recreate it politically. God's kingdom--assuming you believe in it--cannot be recreated by sinful humans precisely because they are sinful, and any attempt to do so will only result in a distorted version that brings shame rather than glory to god. History has shown that time and again.

show me, where He set it up that way.

Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He (*government authority) is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

*Italics and bolding by me

What an asshole. That's really sad that it takes something as extreme as having your rights taken from you to "feel the Spirit". Why does it take something like this for people to feel holy?

show me, where He set it up that way.

The elders shall judge based on the Law. The Law is God's Law. Nearly the whole of the first five books is about what the people are and are not allowed to do and how the elders (or the government) is to respond to not following the Law.

Seems pretty clear to me. Do A. If you don't do A, the elders who rule over the town are to stone you. Doesn't seem like there's an option to me.

This wasn't a case of politics at all. The made a scenario that seemed to be most realistic to our society. I mean could they have said "we have to be silent or else the gov't will kill us" Thats just not believable at all in America.

Oh, but it was politics. Why else would the pastor have used the University as his pretend scapegoat, and tar the visiting politician (likely a local Democrat) as guilty by association? This is basically a right-wing talking point come to life.

I appreciate the need for demonstrative examinations of faith in times of crisis, but why invent a crisis -- and such a divisive one -- where none exist? A better test of faith might be non-judgmental aid to ackowledged "sinners" or those of radically different faiths than you. Having a "faith raid drill" seems childish and needlessly pedantic to me.

Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He (*government authority) is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

*Italics and bolding by me

Yes and no. The Nazis were God's servants in that they were God's agents of wrath. But not all their policies were totally in line with God's Law, so they were not God-fearing people.

No. I don't pick and choose. There are some things which I do not do, but I should. But just because I don't do them doesn't mean that you are any less off the hook. It just means that I am further onto it.

Huh?

Are you saying that you are a bad Christian who does not follow the rules of his own religion? Then why would we take your word for anything that we should do? Bring me a devout Christian to explain Christianity to me, please.

Oh, wait, there's one already here, and she does not agree with you.

Also, what hook am I on? How the hell did I get involved with your failure to follow your religion?

Oh, but it was politics. Why else would the pastor have used the University as his pretend scapegoat, and tar the visiting politician (likely a local Democrat) as guilty by association? This is basically a right-wing talking point come to life.

Amen to that! :D

Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He (*government authority) is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

*Italics and bolding by me
I am aware of Paul's version. I asked Edwardis to show me in the Old Testament where God said "I want there to be theocracy"

The elders shall judge based on the Law. The Law is God's Law. Nearly the whole of the first five books is about what the people are and are not allowed to do and how the elders (or the government) is to respond to not following the Law.

Seems pretty clear to me. Do A. If you don't do A, the elders who rule over the town are to stone you. Doesn't seem like there's an option to me.
so in your government I will get stoned for breaking the old testament law?

Yes and no. The Nazis were God's servants in that they were God's agents of wrath. But not all their policies were totally in line with God's Law, so they were not God-fearing people.
OMG.........that's just wrong.......

theocracy, that's where they screwed up.


He is, but apparently Edwardis doesn't think so.

How is that theocracy? Theocracy is when God's Law is upheld by the civil authority. Or if it's a Muslim theocracy, it's when Allah's Law, etc.

Monarchy /=/ theocracy.

And God is perfect. He has ordained that He shall listen to the sinful pleas of His people at times as both a lesson and a punishment to them.

OMG.........that's just wrong.......

How. If all governments are ordained by God, how can it be differently. Especially from a Calvinist view. I believe you said you are a Calvinist, I may be mistaken, though.

How is that theocracy? Theocracy is when God's Law is upheld by the civil authority. Or if it's a Muslim theocracy, it's when Allah's Law, etc.

Monarchy /=/ theocracy.

And God is perfect. He has ordained that He shall listen to the sinful pleas of His people at times as both a lesson and a punishment to them.

Do me a favor and actually read the old testament.

Huh?

Are you saying that you are a bad Christian who does not follow the rules of his own religion? Then why would we take your word for anything that we should do? Bring me a devout Christian to explain Christianity to me, please.

Oh, wait, there's one already here, and she does not agree with you.

Also, what hook am I on? How the hell did I get involved with your failure to follow your religion?

I never said you were involved. The hook is called responsibility to follow the Law. And we are all on it.

Devout Christians disagree on much all the time. Bring me a Methodist and we'll discuss predestination. You'll see sparks fly then.

How. If all governments are ordained by God, how can it be differently. Especially from a Calvinist view. I believe you said you are a Calvinist, I may be mistaken, though.
I am a Baptist, Southern Baptist to be more specific.

I take a completely different view on that passage from Romans than you do though.

Do me a favor and actually read the old testament.

You have yet to show me how I am misreading it.

Yes and no. The Nazis were God's servants in that they were God's agents of wrath. But not all their policies were totally in line with God's Law, so they were not God-fearing people.

Kindly tell us which of the Nazis' policies were in keeping with the will of the Christian god.

Second option: Back away from the edge of that cliff, Ed.

You have yet to show me how I am misreading it.

Daniel - theocracy gone bad
Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego - Theocracy gone bad
King Josiah - Godly King, who still had problems with theocracy

I could go on for a long time....really.

And the Roman's passage? I take it to mean that I don't know what's best and only God does, and I am to put my attention more to my own walk than going around trying to overthrow the government to make it into a theocracy (which btw, God himself has shown me time and again to be a bad idea)

I never said you were involved. The hook is called responsibility to follow the Law. And we are all on it.
Ah, but which law? Whose law? There's the rub.

Devout Christians disagree on much all the time. Bring me a Methodist and we'll discuss predestination. You'll see sparks fly then.

I know. It's so cute how so many are so quick to tell us non-Christians all about the beautiful peacefulness of life with Christ, until another Christian walks into the room and then watch out! The fur does fly. Meow.

How. If all governments are ordained by God, how can it be differently. Especially from a Calvinist view. I believe you said you are a Calvinist, I may be mistaken, though.

and that "im sick of it" guy wonders why people rant against religion on this board!

you think that god ordained the nazis? that he ordained the ussr? that he ordained communist china? that he ordained pol pot? that he, in some twisted version of love, wanted hundreds of millions of people to be slaughtered?

I know. It's so cute how so many are so quick to tell us non-Christians all about the beautiful peacefulness of life with Christ, until another Christian walks into the room and then watch out! The fur does fly. Meow.
Of course the fur flies; that's why they're called "Protestants", because they can't stand someone else's take on the Word of God, and thus, must protest it.

Kindly tell us which of the Nazis' policies were in keeping with the will of the Christian god.

Second option: Back away from the edge of that cliff, Ed.

I never said any of there policies were. Well, I may have said many of their policies weren't. Because there must have been some good one somewhere. What it is though, I have no idea. The Nazis had some virtue. Loyalty being one, but they twisted that virtue and applied it in a way that it became a vice.

What I said was (or at least meant to say) was God uses the even the evil of evil for His means. They were a vessel of wrath against who? I don't know. I am not God. But anything "bad" that happens happens because it is God's judgement on someone. From the cold I have to Hurricane Katrina, they aer all judgement. Could God prevent them? Of course. So why doesn't He? Because He doesn't want to. Why? Again I am not God. But He says that everything happens for His glory. So, if it is for His glory, it must be, among other things, for the glory of His justice and mercy. So the cold I suffer from is a more merciful judgement and Hurricane Katrina is less merciful. Which is not to say that I am less deseving of punishment than those in New Orelans. Just that God chose to be more merciful to me (so far). Why? I don't know, but it certainly isn't because of merit on my part.

So all of this applies to the Nazis. God allowed them to be for vessels of His justice among other things. And then He did justice on them in various ways also.

I never said any of there policies were. Well, I may have said many of their policies weren't. Because there must have been some good one somewhere. What it is though, I have no idea. The Nazis had some virtue. Loyalty being one, but they twisted that virtue and applied it in a way that it became a vice.

What I said was (or at least meant to say) was God uses the even the evil of evil for His means. They were a vessel of wrath against who? I don't know. I am not God. But anything "bad" that happens happens because it is God's judgement on someone. From the cold I have to Hurricane Katrina, they aer all judgement. Could God prevent them? Of course. So why doesn't He? Because He doesn't want to. Why? Again I am not God. But He says that everything happens for His glory. So, if it is for His glory, it must be, among other things, for the glory of His justice and mercy. So the cold I suffer from is a more merciful judgement and Hurricane Katrina is less merciful. Which is not to say that I am less deseving of punishment than those in New Orelans. Just that God chose to be more merciful to me (so far). Why? I don't know, but it certainly isn't because of merit on my part.

So all of this applies to the Nazis. God allowed them to be for vessels of His justice among other things. And then He did justice on them in various ways also.


Everything that bad happens is God's judgement on someone? everything?

so when my youngest child almost died, went through unbelievable pain, 2 surgeries, and has to live with an auto immune disorder for the rest of her life that will put her at high risk for things like cancer.....God was judgeing her for something?

Daniel - theocracy gone bad
Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego - Theocracy gone bad
King Josiah - Godly King, who still had problems with theocracy

2 are examples of an unholy theocracy: the goverment wasn't following God.
King Josiah shows the problem with having one person in charge, not a problem with theocracy.

And the Roman's passage? I take it to mean that I don't know what's best and only God does, and I am to put my attention more to my own walk than going around trying to overthrow the government to make it into a theocracy (which btw, God himself has shown me time and again to be a bad idea)

Well you contradicted yourself, because if God shows you something, you know something which is best. But that aside, God has shown me something different from you. So, since God cannot contradict Himself, one of us must be wrong.

and that "im sick of it" guy wonders why people rant against religion on this board!

you think that god ordained the nazis? that he ordained the ussr? that he ordained communist china? that he ordained pol pot? that he, in some twisted version of love, wanted hundreds of millions of people to be slaughtered?

If he's a hardcore Calvinist, then, yeah, he may very well believe that. One of the tenets of Calvinism is pre-destination, by which all human conditions are pre-ordained by God because he has already decided from the beginning of time who is saved and who is damned. Your life on earth is supposed to reflect that spiritual condition. So if you prosper, it's because God loves you. If you suffer, it's because you're damned. Thus, all the suffering of the world is good, right and proper, because the victims had it coming.

Everything that bad happens is God's judgement on someone? everything?

so when my youngest child almost died, went through unbelievable pain, 2 surgeries, and has to live with an auto immune disorder for the rest of her life that will put her at high risk for things like cancer.....God was judgeing her for something?

Her nature is sinful and God can judge her for that.

God can also be judging you through your emotional pain over the problems. But He is also merciful to her through the doctors and medicines and intercessory prayer and all those other things.

We are His. And He can do what He wants with us. But that does not mean that He is malicious against us.

Of course the fur flies; that's why they're called "Protestants", because they can't stand someone else's take on the Word of God, and thus, must protest it.

An entire religious movement fueled by continuously picking holes in other people's coats. I feel for those Protestant churches who work so hard to get past that.

If he's a hardcore Calvinist, then, yeah, he may very well believe that. One of the tenets of Calvinism is pre-destination, by which all human conditions are pre-ordained by God because he has already decided from the beginning of time who is saved and who is damned. Your life on earth is supposed to reflect that spiritual condition. So if you prosper, it's because God loves you. If you suffer, it's because you're damned. Thus, all the suffering of the world is good, right and proper, because the victims had it coming.
So then, there is no point to religion, going to church, following the Bible and all that jazz, because by that logic, all efforts are futile because no matter what one does, their fate has already been decided.

If he's a hardcore Calvinist, then, yeah, he may very well believe that. One of the tenets of Calvinism is pre-destination, by which all human conditions are pre-ordained by God because he has already decided from the beginning of time who is saved and who is damned. Your life on earth is supposed to reflect that spiritual condition. So if you prosper, it's because God loves you. If you suffer, it's because you're damned. Thus, all the suffering of the world is good, right and proper, because the victims had it coming.

Yes and no.

Those who are saved also had it coming. And God sometimes gives it to them. And sometimes He doesn't give the heathen what he has coming.

So then, there is no point to religion, going to church, following the Bible and all that jazz, because by that logic, all efforts are futile because no matter what one does, their fate has already been decided.

If you are truly saved, you will want to do all that Jazz because of your love for God.

2 are examples of an unholy theocracy: the goverment wasn't following God.
King Josiah shows the problem with having one person in charge, not a problem with theocracy.

No theocracy can be holy because we are human, we are unable to achieve a holy state.

I don't think you even read about King Josiah either.


Well you contradicted yourself, because if God shows you something, you know something which is best. But that aside, God has shown me something different from you. So, since God cannot contradict Himself, one of us must be wrong.
God shows me new things each day, and taking the scripture as a whole (not just what Paul says) I think if one of us is wrong, it's not me.

Her nature is sinful and God can judge her for that.

God can also be judging you through your emotional pain over the problems. But He is also merciful to her through the doctors and medicines and intercessory prayer and all those other things.

We are His. And He can do what He wants with us. But that does not mean that He is malicious against us.
He is NOT malicious? But, you just contradicted yourself! You said that he allows suffering, isn't that malicious?

If he's a hardcore Calvinist, then, yeah, he may very well believe that. One of the tenets of Calvinism is pre-destination, by which all human conditions are pre-ordained by God because he has already decided from the beginning of time who is saved and who is damned. Your life on earth is supposed to reflect that spiritual condition. So if you prosper, it's because God loves you. If you suffer, it's because you're damned. Thus, all the suffering of the world is good, right and proper, because the victims had it coming.

yeah i know, its just hard to see someone say something so utterly stupid and not react to it. calvinism is one of the more unchristian of all the christian denominations.

Everything that bad happens is God's judgement on someone? everything?

so when my youngest child almost died, went through unbelievable pain, 2 surgeries, and has to live with an auto immune disorder for the rest of her life that will put her at high risk for things like cancer.....God was judgeing her for something?

I mentioned this in another thread, Smunkee, but I imagine it got lost in the shuffle. Something I find interesting is the way some--not you, I'd imagine--will look at their own sufferings as a test of their faith, but the sufferings of others as God's retribution for some evil they have done. Scary, isn't it?