NationStates Jolt Archive

When you think about it, the Chinese invent pretty much everything good, but due to their relative lack of worldliness, they don't get credit, as those inventions and ideas are spread by the Europeans who invented them independently. The only thing the West has an edge in, IMO, is the arts.

Am I right, or am I right?

When you think about it, the Chinese invent pretty much everything good, but due to their relative lack of worldliness, they don't get credit, as those inventions and ideas are spread by the Europeans who invented them independently. The only thing the West has an edge in, IMO, is music.

Am I right, or am I right?

I have to agree
(and not just because my chinese boyfriend is watching me type)

When you think about it, the Chinese invent pretty much everything good, but due to their relative lack of worldliness, they don't get credit, as those inventions and ideas are spread by the Europeans who invented them independently. The only thing the West has an edge in, IMO, is the arts.

Am I right, or am I right?

I am told that you shouldnt forget that the chinese invented golf....

I am told that you shouldnt forget that the chinese invented golf....

But yet, they never tell anyone, which loses them credit.

oh, and have you seen their art, it can be really impressive, their traditional dancing is very pritty and an ang pau(sont know if this is how you spell it)at chinese new year is good,especially if you are in a large family and need to buy stuff.

oh, and have you seen their art, it can be really impressive, their traditional dancing is very pritty and an ang pau(sont know if this is how you spell it)at chinese new year is good,especially if you are in a large family and need to buy stuff.

Yeah, but I still think the West has the edge. Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Picasso, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Bach, Shakespeare, Mark Twain...

Not always, there were a lot of stuff that got invented in China first, but were invented later on in Europe without coming into contact with their Chinese cousins. There's stuff that the Europeans stole, and stuff that the Chinese stole, and finally things that got invented in Europe/America first.

And art depends upon what styles you like, Chinese art looks beautiful to me at least and some of their litature is great. It's just that very little gets translated over to English and it usually loses a lot when it happens.

When you think about it, the Chinese invent pretty much everything good, but due to their relative lack of worldliness, they don't get credit, as those inventions and ideas are spread by the Europeans who invented them independently. The only thing the West has an edge in, IMO, is the arts.

Am I right, or am I right?

No, no, no! The Russians inwented everythingk! Don't you know anythingk about your history?*

*Huge cookie for the person who gets that reference.

Am I right, or am I right?

Not everything. According to a book I have on Sun-tzu, chariots were imported into China and swords didn't make an appearance there until well after other cultures were using them, so they were possibly an import as well. The first library was created in Iraq and plumbed-in showers first made an appearance in ancient Greece. The Romans seemed to have come up with central heating for houses around the same time the Chinese were beginning to do the same thing using piped in natural gas. Oh, and the Romans apparently invented art forgery. Still laugh when I remember reading about that!

*Huge cookie for the person who gets that reference.

Chekov was always my favorite character.

No, no, no! The Russians inwented everythingk! Don't you know anythingk about your history?*

*Huge cookie for the person who gets that reference.
Yea! A cookie!
And stand down, Ensign Chekov. ;)

Yea! A cookie!
And stand down, Ensign Checkhov. ;)

*Chekov.

And nice to know that wasn't as vague and outhere as I thought it was.

Didn't he more or less say that in The Voyage Home?

Yeah, but I still think the West has the edge. Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Picasso, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Bach, Shakespeare, Mark Twain...

But,because we live in the west(I assume you do)we tend to think of things in western terms, many of the things we think we invented the chinese invented about 1000 years before.
I have to agree that the west's art is better(to my untrained eye)but that is purley subjective.

Didn't he more or less say that in The Voyage Home?

Chekov has stated it in one form or another so often that it has become a staple of parody and humor bits involving the character.

When you think about it, the Chinese invent pretty much everything good, but due to their relative lack of worldliness, they don't get credit, as those inventions and ideas are spread by the Europeans who invented them independently. The only thing the West has an edge in, IMO, is the arts.

Am I right, or am I right?

How about air conditioning?

Take that China. You just got owned.

I am told that you shouldnt forget that the chinese invented golf....

Blasphemy! The Scottish invented golf! As well as haggis and smoked fish.

Blasphemy! The Scottish invented golf! As well as haggis and smoked fish.

there are even people who claim that it was invented by the duch(but it was called kolf or something)but it was around in china about 1500 years before scotland
(sorry scotland-I really do love you-you smashed the english up so often)

there are even people who claim that it was invented by the duch(but it was called kolf or something)but it was around in china about 1500 years before scotland
(sorry scotland-I really do love you-you smashed the english up so often)

They were apparently the originators of soccer too. The persians on the other hand, created Polo. They seemed to have to much free time on their hands.

No, no, no! The Russians inwented everythingk! Don't you know anythingk about your history?*

*Huge cookie for the person who gets that reference.

Chekov off Star Trek?

When you think about it, the Chinese invent pretty much everything good, but due to their relative lack of worldliness, they don't get credit, as those inventions and ideas are spread by the Europeans who invented them independently. The only thing the West has an edge in, IMO, is the arts.

Am I right, or am I right?

So did the Greeks and the Romans. Heron of Alexandria was on the cusp of developing a steam engine, he just couldn't put hydraulics and his 'Steam Ball' little toy bauble thing together. What a shame, an industrial revolution could have started two milennia ago, but for unfortunate chance.

I'm still marveling over the Chinese invention called semiconductors. Just look how they've shaped the world with that one.

Yeah, Ancient China was very innovative, but to talk about who invented things first is only useful to a certain extent, as many things were invented independently in the East and West.

Although, having said that, Scotland does have a remarkable ability to invent things second :D

And more important than any toy or bauble is the delightful development known as western philosophy. A philosophy that gave rise to liberal, non-absolutist ideologies, which enabled the west to make effective use of the things it invented.

The chinese did not invent everything first, but they did do a lot of things that europeans claim to have invented first like:

the compass,
paper
the machine that detects earthquakes(forgot its name)
gun powder
cannons
machine guns(shoots arrows)
wheelbarrow
a sheild gun(a gun with a sheild in front)
the bridge arch
kites
steel,iron casting(not sure bout this)
plently of farming equiment
printing press
books(in mass production)
encycopedia
clock

the list is endless!
But the invention bug sort of slowed down in the 15th century when the chinese emperor thought china was so great nothing can control it and stop the developement of weopens and so on.Turns out they were wrong

China did not invent everything first but it did invent a great number of things first. Which one would expect, considering it contained a full fourth of the world's population historically and has a fifth of it currently.

And art depends upon what styles you like, Chinese art looks beautiful to me at least and some of their litature is great. It's just that very little gets translated over to English and it usually loses a lot when it happens.
In visual art work in China progressed at a far slower rate than in Europe. The only thing they mastered first was printing.

The machine that detects earthquakes is probably a Seismometer.

Yep, the Chinese were very clever at a lot of stuff. And as for famous names they had people like Sun Tzu. Lived 2600 years ago, and military people STILL cite examples from his book "The Art of War". Now that's impressive.

machine guns(shoots arrows)


Pfhhh. Everybody knows that the machine gun was invented by Gatling, and revolutionised by Maxim.

And as for famous names they had people like Sun Tzu. Lived 2600 years ago, and military people STILL cite examples from his book "The Art of War". Now that's impressive.

The West had a counterpart though, Clausewitz.

It also makes me laugh that when i think that while China was building the great War of China (Around 200BC) The British,easten europe and French inhabitants were still living in tribes and small villages, Spain and portugal was overun with muslim(not that there is anything wrong with them) Not counting the Roman empire and the greek nations, the next most advanced civilization in Europe were the vikings or franks! And the chinese already exsited for around 2000 years already living in grand cities!

Sure, but they needed to be taught how to use it all properly.;)

what do u imply by that? Are u saying that the chinese did not know how to use their own invention propely and had to be taught by the europeans?

It also makes me laugh that when i think that while China was building the great War of China (Around 200BC) The British,easten europe and French inhabitants were still living in tribes and small villages, Spain and portugal was overun with muslim(not that there is anything wrong with them) Not counting the Roman empire and the greek nations, the next most advanced civilization in Europe were the vikings or franks! And the chinese already exsited for around 2000 years already living in grand cities!

Yeah, and then I laugh when I remember that the Japanese kicked China's ass. :rolleyes:

what do u imply by that? Are u saying that the chinese did not know how to use their own invention propely and had to be taught by the europeans?

Yep. Europe invented the firearm. Even Japan got firearms before the Chinese >_>

sure japan kick chinas butt.....2000 years later

I just find it funny that the "worlds greatest continent" was a late bloomer in developing civilisations

i also said china's brilliance went down the drain in the 15th century and dropped even faster in the early 20th century

plus...the japanese were originally chinese

In visual art work in China progressed at a far slower rate than in Europe. The only thing they mastered first was printing.
In terms of what? Western art styles? Yes, they were slower in that because their artistic bents took them to different areas where they were doing quite well.

plus...the japanese were originally chinese
That would be news to the Japanese. Chinese are Sino, Japanese are Mongoloids and are more closely related to Koreans than Chinese in terms of ethnisity.

Not to mention the Japanese language is related to Turkish more than to Chinese (apartently everyon was wandering around for a long time before ending up here).

well then u obviously dont know that the japanese formal language is a combination of chinese characters and two other scripts. and there is also some proof that many chinese people settled there

plus all east asians and south east asians ARE mongoloid

well then u obviously dont know that the japanese formal language is a combination of chinese characters and two other scripts. and there is also some proof that many chinese people settled there

Cultural migration is not the same thing as ethnic migration. It made sense to the Japanese to pick up bits of the Chinese alphabet, that does not mean that the Japanese are of Chinese descent.

In terms of what? Western art styles? Yes, they were slower in that because their artistic bents took them to different areas where they were doing quite well.

Nah, I'd still say our stuff is better.

first of all we are going off topic and the point is.....

the chinese invented a lot of things

well then u obviously dont know that the japanese formal language is a combination of chinese characters and two other scripts. and there is also some proof that many chinese people settled there
*looks at location, reads the part where I live in Japan* Hmmm...

I take it you mean kanji. Yes, written Japanese uses kanji which was introduced as Japan's first written language back in the first century (CE). It is combined with hiragana and katakana to handle the Japanese grammar as Japanese (spoken) isn't anything close to spoken Chinese. Kanji also has two readings, the orginal Chinese (Japanese phonetical sounding there of) and the orginal Japanese readings, whcih can make life a lot of fun when you're trying to learn how to read over here.

However, Japanese as a language is different from Chinese languages in many, many different ways. They are not even related beyond the Japanese borrowing the writing style and some words.

The Chinese infulance you see in Japanese culture actually comes from a period long after the orginal groups came to Yamato and started setting up shop (which, from what we can tell, they came from Korea). Chinese settlements were few and far between, especially during Japan's periods of isolation and Chinese periods of civil war.

Would you like another Japanese history lesson?

yes i would like to have another lesson, i dont know much about japan so start from the begining please.(this is not sarcasm)

Algebra comes from a foreign word...
Anyway, withour algebra, no maths, no computer, no internet.
No China, because no bomb.

Thanks to Muhamad and the Prophet for giving us China.
The futur ruler of this planet.
Bushevism is dead, Chinavism is the new snobism.

Glory to the great Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi and his book
Hidab al-jabr wal-muqubala (825 AD).

But is it interessting to know what an arabic did?

It also makes me laugh that when i think that while China was building the great War of China (Around 200BC) The British,easten europe and French inhabitants were still living in tribes and small villages, Spain and portugal was overun with muslim(not that there is anything wrong with them) Not counting the Roman empire and the greek nations, the next most advanced civilization in Europe were the vikings or franks! And the chinese already exsited for around 2000 years already living in grand cities!
So, pray tell, how did the Muslims ravage Portugal and Spain in 200 BC, roughly 800 years before Islam came into existence? :rolleyes: At this point in time they were provinces of the Roman Empire.

Anyway, I disagree with the OP. The West is responsible for a large number of inventions, whether it invented them first, it invented them independently or it adapted them from other cultures. So the West doesn't just have an edge in the arts. Like Nervun said, we invented things of our own and we "stole" from the Chinese, just like they invented things of their own and "stole" from us. Note that I also include Japan when I say "West". It too made many valuable contributions to science and the arts, and knowledge more generally. Trying to say China invented all valuable technologies is Sino-centric, biased and imbalanced, and essentially, untrue.

Again i said a lot of things, not everything..... and i was wrong on that spain thing though.

The West also invented a lot of things. China's contribution is valuable, but not to the exclusion of the West's. To put it another way, both contributed significantly, and in some cases, synergetically.

Trying to say China invented all valuable technologies is Sino-centric, biased and imbalanced, and essentially, untrue.

Actually, I'm a Eurocentric. >_>

Algebra comes from a foreign word...
Anyway, withour algebra, no maths, no computer, no internet.
No China, because no bomb.

Thanks to Muhamad and the Prophet for giving us China.
The futur ruler of this planet.
Bushevism is dead, Chinavism is the new snobism.

Glory to the great Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi and his book
Hidab al-jabr wal-muqubala (825 AD).

But is it interessting to know what an arabic did?

Actually, most of the important maths came through from India.

Actually, I'm a Eurocentric. >_>
Either way, it doesn't invalidate what I said.

Actually, most of the important maths came through from India.
...and ancient Greece.

China contributed more between 2700bc to 1500ad then suddenly went cold turkey

then Europe spent the next 500 years changing the world and at a much quicker pace than china

China contributed more between 2700bc to 1500ad then suddenly went cold turkey

then Europe spent the next 500 years changing the world and at a much quicker pace than china
More than whom? Greece and Rome? Two cultures which reached an apex of cultural and scientific knowledge success? It most definitely did not contribute to their exclusion. Had Rome not fallen, who knows what it could have achieved.

The other part is correct. China may be coming back with a vengeance though. We'll see.

sad truth is...Rome did fall. pity her. I do admit that Greece was like the world's smartest country then. But it fell with romans. pity her too

No, no, no! The Russians inwented everythingk! Don't you know anythingk about your history?*

*Huge cookie for the person who gets that reference.

Well they did actually come up with quite a few things by way of military and space technology. First nation in space dont forget.

When a culture is settled, prosperous and concentrated, people have the time to pursue things other than just getting by day to day, like innovations in technology and art. Chinese civilization reached this point and stayed there consistently long before the rest of the world, so its only natural so many things started there.

Modern western nations only achieved this kind of stability about a thousand years ago.

sad truth is...Rome did fall. pity her. I do admit that Greece was like the world's smartest country then. But it fell with romans. pity her too

Yes, all empires eventually fall (including China, several times). Rome was no exception to this rule, sadly.

China contributed more between 2700bc to 1500ad then suddenly went cold turkey

then Europe spent the next 500 years changing the world and at a much quicker pace than china

Europe changed the world because it came to dominate it economically and militarily. The Chinese on the other hand were happy enough running China down through the millenia.

Modern western nations only achieved this kind of stability about a thousand years ago.
In all fairness, the West has gone through very turbulent periods. Its first golden age was around 2000 BC to the fall of Rome, which plunged the West into the dark ages from what was perhaps one of its highest cultural points. Its next high point came with the High Middle Ages at around the 13th century BC, culminating in the Rennaissance and the Enlightenment, which heavily influenced the modern West (and in turn, itself was influenced by Greco-roman/germanic culture).

Europe changed the world because it came to dominate it economically and militarily. The Chinese on the other hand were happy enough running China down through the millenia.
Well who wouldn't be? China abounds in natural resources and living space. Europe, by contrast, had to contend with much more limited resources, until it learnt how to overcome such adversities.

Well you cant say the empire of china collaspe because if you notice, the chinese culture and life is not eradicated into nothing like the Romans or Greeks. The Empire of China only collaspe after the last emperor was kicked off his throne, and did not really collaspe, its more liked it changed its name. What are the other times it collaspe by the way?

Exactly. Nations in western europe have only existed roughly as they are today for about a millenium. China has remained a solid entity for far longer, and so it follows that they had an environment in which to innovate. Europe on the other hand went through massive cultural upheavals after the fall of the Roman empire.

Well you cant say the empire of china collaspe because if you notice, the chinese culture and life is not eradicated into nothing like the Romans or Greeks. The Empire of China only collaspe after the last emperor was kicked off his throne, and did not really collaspe, its more liked it changed its name. What are the other times it collaspe by the way?
Umm, neither Rome nor the Greeks eradicated into nothing. The Eastern Roman empire became the Byzantine Empire, a bastion of culture and economic power for nearly a thousand years, and the Western part was the basis of what would later form the great European kingdoms after the Dark Ages came to an end, most notably the Holy Roman Empire of Germany and the Frankish kingdoms. China has had much strife from within it during various succession wars and such. As a nation it never really fell, but it by no means remained the same empire all through time, even with the advantageous circumstances it enjoyed. Usually when exogenous causes of strife are absent, endogenous ones present themselves.

Exactly. Nations in western europe have only existed roughly as they are today for about a millenium. China has remained a solid entity for far longer, and so it follows that they had an environment in which to innovate. Europe on the other hand went through massive cultural upheavals after the fall of the Roman empire.
Indeed. That Europe overcame this actually attests to its strong will and ability to triumph over adversity. Therefore I find the OP's assertion that China is somehow more valuable to the world in terms of innovative contributions to be based on misunderstandings and false "truths".

Not everything. For example, the yo-yo.

Nobody is sure when is the yo-yo invented. Many civilizations of the past however, have claimed to invented it. The Greeks and Aztecs used it both as a form of entertainment and a melee weapon. The Chinese used it as a toy, and also claimed they made it. But nobody really knows who made the yo-yo.

Umm, neither Rome nor the Greeks eradicated into nothing. The Eastern Roman empire became the Byzantine Empire, a bastion of culture and economic power for nearly a thousand years, and the Western part was the basis of what would later form the great European kingdoms after the Dark Ages came to an end, most notably the Holy Roman Empire of Germany and the French kingdoms. China has had much strife from within it during various succession wars and such. As a nation it never really fell, but it by no means remained the same empire all through time, even with the advantageous circumstances it enjoyed. Usually when exogenous causes of strife are absent, endogenous ones present themselves.


Does it look like the "Great European Kingdoms" have the culture of the Romans and Greeks? And the Byzantine Empire aren't made of Greeks or Romans and it too collaspe.

Indeed. Cultures under pressure either decline or overcome the obstacles, after which they often become extremely vigourous and influential.
Examples include the Turks, Arabs, the various Germanic and Slavic tribes of the migrations period and the nations of western Europe at the end of the middle ages.

Not everything. For example, the yo-yo.

Nobody is sure when is the yo-yo invented. Many civilizations of the past however, have claimed to invented it. The Greeks and Aztecs used it both as a form of entertainment and a melee weapon. The Chinese used it as a toy, and also claimed they made it. But nobody really knows who made the yo-yo.

Tell me did you read the part where I said not everything?

The Chinese invented Kung Fu. From Kung Fu came Bruce Lee and from there, Chuck Norris.

'Nough said.

Does it look like the "Great European Kingdoms" have the culture of the Romans and Greeks? And the Byzantine Empire aren't made of Greeks or Romans and it too collaspe.
Now you are truly letting your ignorance show through.

If it eludes you, it is the great European kingdoms which eventually reached the High Middle Ages, the Rennaissance and the Enlightenment, hallmarks of modern Western cultural achievement. Italy and France led the Rennaissance and produced artistic and scientific marvels, Germany (and the Habsburg Empire) was the world's most sophisticated civilisation by the 19th century and the 19th c. United Kingdom was at the epicentre of much economic (in terms of both the science and actual economic growth) and technological progress. All of these kingdoms originated from the Western Roman Empires ruins.

The Byzantine Empire was made up mostly of Greeks, since well, it was based in Greece and the areas about Greece (Asia Minor back then was a Greek territory too). It included many other nations at its apogy, including many Balkan nations. And yes, it collapsed - after 1000 years of constant Empire. Had it maintained better relations with the Latin remnants of the Roman Empire, perhaps it'd have lasted even longer. Furthermore, the Byzantine Empire influenced Eastern Europe irreversibly, even forming the bases of their language by providing them the Cyrillic alphabet. To this day Russia remains under these influences which define much of its culture.

Does it look like the "Great European Kingdoms" have the culture of the Romans and Greeks? And the Byzantine Empire aren't made of Greeks or Romans and it too collaspe.

Ahem ... a few minor points, like the basis of law in many European countries being Roman law, and the Romance languages (just bad provincial Latin), and, oh, art and literature and architecture. Not without changes, to be sure, but the culture of the Greeks and Romans never vanished into nothing.

And if the Byzantine Empire wasn't an Empire of Greeks who called themselves Romans, who were they?

The Chinese invented Kung Fu. From Kung Fu came Bruce Lee and from there, Chuck Norris.

'Nough said.

:rolleyes:

Indeed. That Europe overcame this actually attests to its strong will and ability to triumph over adversity. Therefore I find the OP's assertion that China is somehow more valuable to the world in terms of innovative contributions to be based on misunderstandings and false "truths".

Well I think its kind of stupid to have an us and them attitude, were all on the same team at the end of the day.

Then let me try to clear my ignorance.

To Wikipedia!!

Well I think its kind of stupid to have an us and them attitude, were all on the same team at the end of the day.
Perhaps so. Still, this will not deter me from dispelling any nonsense some people may believe about the West.

:rolleyes:

What? They didn't?

Ahem ... a few minor points, like the basis of law in many European countries being Roman law, and the Romance languages (just bad provincial Latin), and, oh, art and literature and architecture. Not without changes, to be sure, but the culture of the Greeks and Romans never vanished into nothing.

And if the Byzantine Empire wasn't an Empire of Greeks who called themselves Romans, who were they?

Narrowminded, heretic-killing Christian fundamentalists! Not exactly Plato and Seneca. Byzantines were a whole different culture from the ancient Greco-Roman society.

Byzantine Empire calling itself Roman is similar to North Korea calling itself the Democratic People's Republic- quite misleading!

According to Wikipedia, the people of the Byzantium Empire are greek and collapsed as a Greek Othrodox State and how did we shift from China to the Byzantium Empire

Narrowminded, heretic-killing Christian fundamentalists! Not exactly Plato and Seneca. Byzantines were a whole different culture from the ancient Greco-Roman society.

Byzantine Empire calling itself Roman is similar to North Korea calling itself the Democratic People's Republic- quite misleading!
It was extremely austere and theocratic, yes - unfortunately. Nevertheless, it enjoyed massive economic and cultural growth in spite of these factors. Furthermore, its culture, as I said, shaped modern Eastern Europe. This at least puts the claim that Rome vanished into nihil to death.

According to Wikipedia, the people of the Byzantium Empire are greek and collapsed as a Greek Othrodox State and how did we shift from China to the Byzantium Empire
The Byzantine Empire. Anyway, yes we are sidetracking a bit. I have made my point though.

They did invent Kung Fu except......Chuck Norris? Thats it!!??

Now you are truly letting your ignorance show through.

If it eludes you, it is the great European kingdoms which eventually reached the High Middle Ages, the Rennaissance and the Enlightenment, hallmarks of modern Western cultural achievement. Italy and France led the Rennaissance and produced artistic and scientific marvels, Germany (and the Habsburg Empire) was the world's most sophisticated civilisation by the 19th century and the 19th c. United Kingdom was at the epicentre of much economic (in terms of both the science and actual economic growth) and technological progress. All of these kingdoms originated from the Western Roman Empires ruins.

The Byzantine Empire was made up mostly of Greeks, since well, it was based in Greece (Asia Minor back then was a Greek territory too). It included many other nations at its apogy, including many Balkan nations. And yes, it collapsed - after 1000 years of constant Empire. Had it maintained better relations with the Latin remnants of the Roman Empire, perhaps it'd have lasted even longer. Furthermore, the Byzantine Empire influenced Eastern Europe irreversibly, even forming the bases of their language by providing them the Cyrillic alphabet.
Which is classic western academic idiocity, claiming that foundations of western civilization was Greeks. It was valuable and still waiting to be fully discovered Eutrusc civilization.
The greeks were of course eradicated from history, they became roman citizens and mixed with other cultures. The recreation of Greece from Rums was just a propaganda act. Its not just greeks of course, todays genetic research shows most of the italian population is closely related to Türks rather than ancient romans.
Every empires passing leaves back a flux and mixture of genetics, cultures etc. But in denial of this European academics still insists on that their race is pure etc. and people like Germens or Huns were just plain barbarians lived on pillage. But teaching you history from the start with objectivity would take too long.

They did invent Kung Fu except......Chuck Norris? Thats it!!??

:D

They did invent Kung Fu except...

Inventing another way to hurt people doesn't classify as a cultural achievement in my book.

*snip*
So then what is the basis of Western culture, if not greco-roman/germanic influences? Please do tell how you are more illuminated than most academics and what your theory is.

Furthermore, we are debating cultures, not genetics. No one says that modern Greeks are the same biologically as ancient Greeks, or that ancient Romans have the same genotype as modern Italians. So this is irrelevant. I highly doubt though that the Italians have anything to do with Turks, except perhaps some phenotypal similarities, which by no means equate blood links.

80% of the European genepool has been static since the paleolithic. That's a fact.

Inventing another way to hurt people doesn't classify as a cultural achievement in my book.
Creating a way for people to defend themselves against agressors is though.

So then what is the basis of Western culture, if not greco-roman/germanic influences? Please do tell how you are more illuminated than most academics and what your theory is.

Babylonian and Egyptian ideas intermeshed with Christianity and the scholastic diversions of Islam.*

* Points to whomsoever is able to point out why this isn't an alternative answer.

Inventing another way to hurt people doesn't classify as a cultural achievement in my book.

You're just jealous.

Which is classic western academic idiocity, claiming that foundations of western civilization was Greeks. It was valuable and still waiting to be fully discovered Eutrusc civilization.
The greeks were of course eradicated from history, they became roman citizens and mixed with other cultures. The recreation of Greece from Rums was just a propaganda act. Its not just greeks of course, todays genetic research shows most of the italian population is closely related to Türks rather than ancient romans.
Every empires passing leaves back a flux and mixture of genetics, cultures etc. But in denial of this European academics still insists on that their race is pure etc. and people like Germens or Huns were just plain barbarians lived on pillage. But teaching you history from the start with objectivity would take too long.

Rome practiced an extremely open policy of immigration, and one of the things that was viewed as a problem in the later years of the Roman Empire was that there were very few 'Romans' left, and that the vast bulk of the population was descended from immigrants.

Heron of Alexandria was on the cusp of developing a steam engine, he just couldn't put hydraulics and his 'Steam Ball' little toy bauble thing together. What a shame, an industrial revolution could have started two milennia ago, but for unfortunate chance.

I seem to recall a long and involved debate on this question which lead to the general conclusion that metallurgy just wouldn't have been advanced enough to create a workable steam engine: when the English* finally invented the steam engine they had a long tradition of metallurgy and precision engineering to draw from.


* yup, English. Not the Scots.

Inventing another way to hurt people doesn't classify as a cultural achievement in my book.

Right. Kung Fu, Judo, Taekwoedo, Taichi are a self-defense and yes they are a cultural achievement. Its more than just hitting stuff and breaking boards, its an art then mimicks the movements of animals and some other factors, it can also be seen as an entertainment, many chinese view it as "fun" and it much better than a force fight to the death with prisoners....

PLus its great for your health

You're just jealous.

Nah, I can count Judo or Sumo wrestling as cultural achievements as they are primarily sports and are formalisations of conflict structured so as to cause minimum suffering, and I can count the perfection of the crossbow as a cultural achievement as it is a technological advance, but just another way of smacking someone? Nah.

Right. Kung Fu, Judo, Taekwoedo, Taichi are a self-defense and yes they are a cultural achievement. Its more than just hitting stuff and breaking boards, its an art then mimicks the movements of animals and some other factors, it can also be seen as an entertainment, many chinese view it as "fun" and it much better than a force fight to the death with prisoners....

PLus its great for your health
It also shifts the emphasis from strength and brute force to technique, speed and other factors. It therefore is a more sophisticated form of fighting, and of self-defence. If it can say, save a woman's life from a potential rapist, to me it is all the more valuable.

Did you read all that stuff i posted just now!!?? Firing a crosssbow is more of a skill than culture

It used to be the Soviets who invented everything first . Its the chinese turn now .

Right. Kung Fu, Judo, Taekwoedo, Taichi are a self-defense and yes they are a cultural achievement. Its more than just hitting stuff and breaking boards, its an art then mimicks the movements of animals and some other factors, it can also be seen as an entertainment, many chinese view it as "fun" and it much better than a force fight to the death with prisoners....

PLus its great for your health

Would you also classify contemporary American wrestling or bare-knucle fighting as cultural achievements?

Rome practiced an extremely open policy of immigration, and one of the things that was viewed as a problem in the later years of the Roman Empire was that there were very few 'Romans' left, and that the vast bulk of the population was descended from immigrants.

So you think before immigration the whole population of the empire was the very same "Roman"? Take Gaul for example. What do you think happened to the Gauls? Did they all just leave when the Romans moved in? They would have intermarried with Roman settlers, and gradually became merged with the Italic culture of their rulers. They didnt just dissapear.

Did you read all that stuff i posted just now!!?? Firing a crosssbow is more of a skill than culture

Firing a crossbow isn't culturally interesting, what is culturally significant is having the technological wherewithal and ingenuity to create one.

Creating a way for people to defend themselves against agressors is though.

The problem with this notion is that the skill is as available to the 'agressors'.

Firing a crossbow isn't culturally interesting, what is culturally significant is having the technological wherewithal and ingenuity to create one.
Yet sophisticated martial arts which shift emphasis from brute strength to technique etc are, don't you think? Plus, you seem to be ignoring the mental component and introspection that is closely linked to eastern martial arts.

So you think before immigration the whole population of the empire was the very same "Roman"? Take Gaul for example. What do you think happened to the Gauls? Did they all just leave when the Romans moved in? They would have intermarried with Roman settlers, and gradually became merged with the Italic culture of their rulers. They didnt just dissapear.

What?

I'm just making mention of the fact that Rome was very much like a modern, cosmopolitan city, and it had a diverse population.

The problem with this notion is that the skill is as available to the 'agressors'.
Indeed it is. It still gives the defender a better standing though, and in the case of defensive martial arts, it even disarms the agressor.

Would you also classify contemporary American wrestling or bare-knucle fighting as cultural achievements?

No. I don't think whacking each other painfully before breaking their spines a cultural achivement.

Heck, I dont think America even has a culture

Take Gaul for example. What do you think happened to the Gauls? Did they all just leave when the Romans moved in? They would have intermarried with Roman settlers, and gradually became merged with the Italic culture of their rulers. They didnt just dissapear.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the main thrust of Roman occupation not intermarriage, but the adoption of Roman lifestyles by the occupied persons. It became high status to no longer live in a longhouse or whatever, but instead to aspire to and attain a villa. There were never overwhelming amounts of 'true' Romans in the Roman-occupied areas.

Babylonian and Egyptian ideas intermeshed with Christianity and the scholastic diversions of Islam.*

* Points to whomsoever is able to point out why this isn't an alternative answer.

Which refers to the process the Greeks went through to adapt and refine said ideas, the creation of their own ideas and the fields in which they excelled (such as philosophy and the arts). These ideas were not incorporated raw into Western culture - refined versions of them were. Hence Greek (and Roman) contribution is at the cornerstone of the West. So indeed, it isn't an alternative answer, but it's not ex necessitate a correct one either.

No. I don't think whacking each other painfully before breaking their spines a cultural achivement.

it can also be seen as an entertainment, many ... view it as "fun"

.

Heck, I dont think America even has a culture

In what way?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the main thrust of Roman occupation not intermarriage, but the adoption of Roman lifestyles by the occupied persons. It became high status to no longer live in a longhouse or whatever, but instead to aspire to and attain a villa. There were never overwhelming amounts of 'true' Romans in the Roman-occupied areas.
This is correct. The Romans, like the Greeks, considered all non-Romans barbarians (as in outsiders, not savages - although this often coincided). This did not just refer to individuals outside their empire - it referred to those who weren't of Greek or Latin extraction too. Thus, any interbreeding was kept to a minimum. Only at the Empire's fall did it occur at an increasing rate.

No. I don't think whacking each other painfully before breaking their spines a cultural achivement.

Heck, I dont think America even has a culture

Gee, it took seven pages to get to the inevitable "America has no culture statement." :rolleyes:

Which refers to the process the Greeks went through to adapt and refine said ideas, the creation of their own ideas and the fields in which they excelled (such as philosophy and the arts).

Got it in one.

No. I don't think whacking each other painfully before breaking their spines a cultural achivement.

Heck, I dont think America even has a culture

Then you are wrong. But for the interests of the morn' I might ask, what warrants this statement?

It became high status to no longer live in a longhouse or whatever, but instead to aspire to and attain a villa.

Those Romans and their urban sprawl! Why do they need a cart pulled by six oxen? They're always carrying just one person!

What?

I'm just making mention of the fact that Rome was very much like a modern, cosmopolitan city, and it had a diverse population.

Well then were in agreement! I thought you were one of those anti immiration, keep our race pure bullshit people, thats all.

Yeah, but I still think the West has the edge. Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Picasso, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Bach, Shakespeare, Mark Twain...

...Paris Hilton, Homer Simpson, Peewee Herman...

Well then were in agreement! I thought you were one of those anti immiration, keep our race pure bullshit people, thats all.

Christ no! I'm an integrationist, open border type to the core! I love immigration, it's a great thing, and I pay virtually no attention to the concept of 'race', because, frankly, it doesn't matter.

maybe a pop culture but not a historic culture like other nations have.

Well then were in agreement! I thought you were one of those anti immiration, keep our race pure bullshit people, thats all.
Do not let modern political concerns cloud historical study. The Romans indeed had a multicultural society, but they frowned upon non-Roman (and non-Greek) citizens of their Empire. It was only towards its end that this changed. Thus intermarriage was not frequent. One must remember that Greeks were fiercely xenophobic, and even racist (they considered themselves of perfect complexion, as opposed to lighter skinned northerners and darker africans), and the Romans inherited these tendencies. The difference is that within their Empire more of a hierarchy existed rather than complete disassociation with non-Romans/Greeks. This allowed it to remain multicultural, much like the British Empire. This has nothing to do with racism and the like, at least not on the part of historians - it has to do with Greco/roman tendencies.

Those Romans and their urban sprawl! Why do they need a cart pulled by six oxen? They're always carrying just one person!

The problems caused by Roman citybuilding pale into insignificance when compared to those created by earlier cities, such as Ur - which eventually fell due to relentless overfarming of its surrounding area.

maybe a pop culture but not a historic culture like other nations have.

What's the difference? All culture is pop, in some fashion or another. Blind prejudice strikes again.

Christ no! I'm an integrationist, open border type to the core! I love immigration, it's a great thing, and I pay virtually no attention to the concept of 'race', because, frankly, it doesn't matter.

Nice to meet you sir!

maybe a pop culture but not a historic culture like other nations have.

So you judge 'culture' on the basis of whether it is high-brow or low-brow?

The other part is correct. China may be coming back with a vengeance though. We'll see.

Hardly. They may breed like rabbits and build a lot of stuff, but they're in the dumps creatively. And I think they'll be hit the worst when oil runs out.

Hardly. They may breed like rabbits and build a lot of stuff, but they're in the dumps creatively. And I think they'll be hit the worst when oil runs out.
Time will tell. I personally wager that their nation will dissolve due to internal discontent. For now though China is doing well.

The Chinese invented Kung Fu. From Kung Fu came Bruce Lee and from there, Chuck Norris.

'Nough said.

There's the difference between China and the West: they invented martial arts to fight off attackers. We shoot people.

well i compare a 80 year-old culture to lets say france which stretch back at least a 1000years

maybe a pop culture but not a historic culture like other nations have.

You would have to turn off the television and pick up a book to get a different idea of American culture:


Hawthorne
Twain
Thoreau
Emerson
Dickinson
Whitman
Fitzgerald
Hemingway
Hammett
Chandler
Salinger
Capote
Updike
Kerouac

I could go on. And I'm better at naming writers than painters or scupltors or other artists, so I'll leave those out.

Hardly. They may breed like rabbits and build a lot of stuff, but they're in the dumps creatively. And I think they'll be hit the worst when oil runs out.

Not true. Theyve enough coal to keep them going for as long as they need it. Within 50 years we'll probably be listening to Chinese music and drinking whatever their version of Coca Cola is.

I rather like the democratization and popularization of culture.

well i compare a 80 year-old culture to lets say france which stretch back at least a 1000years

Ah, yes, the USA came into existence during the Wall Street Crash, and has no history prior to that, how silly of me not to have noticed this.

well i compare a 80 year-old culture to lets say france which stretch back at least a 1000years
The US is over 300 years old, and carried with it much of the culture of its colonial overlords. This meshed to create an entirely new culture. The US is by no means cultureless, even if a lot of its culture is low-brow, as BWO put it. The existence of such culture is merely more pronounced in the US, but is not endemic to it - it exists in Europe, East Asia, almost everywhere in the world.

They have writers and painters and so on but i still feel like america really has no culture. I mean we have korean food,chinese food,russian food,french food, german food but whats american food? Mcdonals?

well i compare a 80 year-old culture to lets say france which stretch back at least a 1000years

What difference does that time frame make at all?

Even at that, American culture is a conglomeration of dozens of other cultures, many of which are far older than French culture.

I rather like the democratization and popularization of culture.
This has always been present. The majority population has always had its own culture, usually distinct to that of its elite. So this democratization and popularization is an illusion - it's just that now it's more evident. Luckily, high-brow culture still exists as an alternative.

Ah, yes, the USA came into existence during the Wall Street Crash, and has no history prior to that, how silly of me not to have noticed this.

I knew there was something I was missing. There's a Russian who claims most of Western history only happened in the last 1,000 years, everything from Greece and Rome to modern times. He says the old chronology was made up for political reasons, or something like that.

They have writers and painters and so on but i still feel like america really has no culture. I mean we have korean food,chinese food,russian food,french food, german food but whats american food? Mcdonals?

That's because we're cultural heirs. We've developed an integrationist culture, that bears the aspects of many different countries. That is a key mark of American culture, that it's not stagnant, but fluid, adaptive and willing to adopt that which is awesome.

The US is by no means cultureless, even if a lot of its culture is low-brow, as BWO put it.

For the purposes of this discussion I consider a great deal of things low-brow: looking at music alone I would label not only rock, but also jazz, the blues, bluegrass, oldtime and the orchestral works of Gershwin, Copeland and Ives as low-brow. One of the great victories of American culture is that as a side-effect of its extremely capitalist ethos it democratised a great deal of art forms.*


* not put the clearest there, but you probably get my drift.

i know america has a 300 year history and the revolution intrigues me but on a cultural view it does not exsit till the twist is invented....

The problems caused by Roman citybuilding pale into insignificance when compared to those created by earlier cities, such as Ur - which eventually fell due to relentless overfarming of its surrounding area.

It's the same all around. History keeps repeating itself. I think it was the Romans who first documented phenomena such as traffic jams and urban sprawl though.

Its just stupid to say Americans have no culture. A lot of people have a problem with it though, because they see it intruding on their own culture through television, music, attitudes and so on.

For the purposes of this discussion I consider a great deal of things low-brow: looking at music alone I would label not only rock, but also jazz, the blues, bluegrass, oldtime and the orchestral works of Gershwin, Copeland and Ives as low-brow.
No disagreement there.

One of the great victories of American culture is that as a side-effect of its extremely capitalist ethos it democratised a great deal of art forms.*


* not put the clearest there, but you probably get my drift.
I think it has perhaps made the existence of low brow culture more evident. As I said, this has always existed as distinct to the once more visible high brow culture. It was simply less obvious. Capitalism has made it easier though I suppose for the majority populace to gain an interest in and influence art. This doesn't render non-existent the distinction, yet it shifts it in the favour of low brow culture.

There's a Russian who claims most of Western history only happened in the last 1,000 years, everything from Greece and Rome to modern times. He says the old chronology was made up for political reasons, or something like that.

Fomenko? Fucking nutter.

So can someone enlighten me the great culture of America before Elvis

Not true.

Nearly none of the modern amenities you use at home at work or at play were invented by the Chinese.

They did invent a number of important items like paper and gunpowder, but most of their other inventions were lost in time.

I remember a professor once said (paraphrased) - the Chinese did progress a little in the Qing Dynasty, but the West far outstripped their invention and industrial prowess. One of the reason is because Chinese inventions were zealously hoarded (by emperors) and kept secret, whereas Western inventions were made public and distributed widely (via patents).

The Chinese have always prided themselves on their social hierarchy and looked down on ordinary people. Unfortunately many (I argue most) prolific inventors, scientists, original thinkers, mavericks, artists in the West come from humble beginnings.

As long as the Chinese continue to worship social rank and look down on their commonfolk they will find it hard to invent anything of note.

i know america has a 300 year history and the revolution intrigues me but on a cultural view it does not exsit till the twist is invented....

Nah, American culture started from an Anglo-Saxon base, back in the 1500's and 1600's, and rapidly developed a big integrationist streak. And the integrationist behaviors of American culture are one of it's defining characteristics.

So can someone enlighten me the great culture of America before Elvis

Engineering. Political science. Democracy. Justice. Jazz. Melville. Capitalism in action. Telecommunications. Mass production. Mass marketing. Philosophy. Aviation. Poe. Johnson. Twain. The Marx Brothers.

Not true.

Nearly none of the modern amenities you use at home at work or at play were invented by the Chinese.

They did invent a number of important items like paper and gunpowder, but most of their other inventions were lost in time.

I remember a professor once said (paraphrased) - the Chinese did progress a little in the Qing Dynasty, but the West far outstripped their invention and industrial prowess. One of the reason is because Chinese inventions were zealously hoarded (by emperors) and kept secret, whereas Western inventions were made public and distributed widely (via patents).

The Chinese have always prided themselves on their social hierarchy and looked down on ordinary people. Unfortunately many (I argue most) prolific inventors, scientists, original thinkers, mavericks, artists in the West come from humble beginnings.

As long as the Chinese continue to worship social rank and look down on their commonfolk they will find it hard to invent anything of note.



Don't you hate people who just come into a conversation without knowing what has already been gone through.

Nah, American culture started from an Anglo-Saxon base, back in the 1500's and 1600's, and rapidly developed a big integrationist streak. And the integrationist behaviors of American culture are one of it's defining characteristics.
I think the South has some significant influences from France too, does it not? I know that the US is basically an integration of Anglo-saxon culture with some other ones, one of which was the French Huguenots.

So can someone enlighten me the great culture of America before Elvis

Mark Twain? Edgar Allan Poe? Orson Welles?

Mark Twain? Edgar Allan Poe? Orson Welles?

Hardy, but not Laurel.

Don't you hate people who just come into a conversation without knowing what has already been gone through.

Come on lah brudder, I did read what transpired. ;)

Nobody mentioned the look down on commonfolk part.

Engineering. Political science. Democracy. Justice. Jazz. Melville. Capitalism in action. Telecommunications. Mass production. Mass marketing. Philosophy. Aviation. Poe.

How....interesting.

I would put Capitalism,Melville Mass production and marketing under the same thing.This is not culture

Engineering,telecommunication and aviation under tecnology. I dont think this is Culture

Democracy and political science is a culture?

so that leaves us with...Poe and Jazz

I think the South has some significant influences from France too, does it not? I know that the US is basically an integration of Anglo-saxon culture with some other ones, one of which was the French Huguenots.

Absolutely. Espescially in Louisiana where we can find not only the Frenchmen who lived there when it was a French territory, but also the Acadians, who relocated down there from Maine. They've got great food, great music and great accents. Added many great factors to the development of American Jazz, American style Barbecue and so many other factors. The French benefit to American culture is enormous.

How....interesting.

I would put Capitalism,Melville Mass production and marketing under the same thing.This is not culture

Engineering,telecommunication and aviation under tecnology. I dont think this is Culture

Democracy and political science is a culture?

so that leaves us with...Poe and Jass

All those things are culture. It's part of the identity of the people. It's not the stuffy and cloistered nobility that some people think of when they picture culture, it's far too dynamic and active for that.

Absolutely. Espescially in Louisiana where we can find not only the Frenchmen who lived there when it was a French territory,

Damn! Those guys must be old!

How....interesting.

I would put Capitalism,Melville Mass production and marketing under the same thing.This is not culture

Do you even know who or what Melville is?

Engineering,telecommunication and aviation under tecnology. I dont think this is Culture

So are you restricting culture to purely artistic fields? Given that this discussion sprang from talk about China's technological achievements that seem idiosyncratic to say the least.

Democracy and political science is a culture?

Yup, if we rule them out then we must also rule out philosophy as a part of culture.

Engineering. Political science. Democracy. Justice. Jazz. Melville. Capitalism in action. Telecommunications. Mass production. Mass marketing. Philosophy. Aviation. Poe. Johnson. Twain. The Marx Brothers.
Just to make a clarification, Capitalism proper first existed in Victorian England (even before that really, it's an ancient economic system - but it first gained ideological groundings around the 18th c.). Democracy also is more so ancient Greek, but modern versions of it definitely stemmed from the early USA. :)


How....interesting.

I would put Capitalism,Melville Mass production and marketing under the same thing.This is not culture
An economic system is not culture on its own, but it is part of a culture - its part of how it chooses to organise itself.

Engineering,telecommunication and aviation under tecnology. I dont think this is Culture
They are the achievements of a culture (a sum of people) though, and also scientific disciplines of knowledge (most definitely part of culture). Given that the OP included technological/scientific achievements, this is all the more relevant.

Democracy and political science is a culture?
Democracy is for the same reason as capitalism. Pol. Science is a discipline of knowledge, and thus most certainly is.

Absolutely. Espescially in Louisiana where we can find not only the Frenchmen who lived there when it was a French territory, but also the Acadians, who relocated down there from Maine. They've got great food, great music and great accents. Added many great factors to the development of American Jazz, American style Barbecue and so many other factors. The French benefit to American culture is enormous.
It makes me laugh sometimes considering the disdain most Americans have for France. I think they forget how much their own nation owes to it in cultural terms.

Damn! Those guys must be old!

Yeppers, they're like 200 years old, and they smoke Galloisies(sp?) and don't shower all that much, but they make good food!

It makes me laugh sometimes considering the disdain most Americans have for France. I think they forget how much their own nation owes to it in cultural terms.

Absolutely, I have tremendous respect for the cultural heritage of the French, which has a lot to offer. I think many of it's current government's policies are flawed, but their culture is a totally different thing.

Although I hate their goddam smelly cigarettes, espescially at three in the morning, when they're smoking just outside of my window...grrrrrrr....

Just to make a clarification, Capitalism proper first existed in Victorian England.

I would possibly argue that it pre-dates the Victorian age a touch, and was at least nascent during the Industrial revolution, but that is by-the-by.

My point is that it is a defining part of American culture, although it is not exclusive to the USA, nor was it invented there. An argument can certainly be made that it exists in its purest form there.

Similarly, engineering was not an American invention, but is an important part of their culture.

Democracy also is more so ancient Greek, but modern versions of it definitely stemmed from the early USA.

via a Brit in exile, but that's beside the point. I'm not claiming that all these things were purely US inventions by any stretch of the imagination, but are are either defining cultural characteristics, particular strands or notable for their achievements within the context of those in similar schools in other nations.

Well i never said inventing paper was china's culture did I......

What Meville are you talking about?

Democracy is nearly in every country, plus Democracy is more of a greek thing to me. Beside, look at the president democracy gave you...twice

If you want to include economy as a cultural thing then well dont Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, Luxembourg and many more have such great cultures

Absolutely, I have tremendous respect for the cultural heritage of the French, which has a lot to offer. I think many of it's current government's policies are flawed, but their culture is a totally different thing.

Yes, their current government needs to go out the window. Still nice to see an American who can at least respect their contributions. :)

I would possibly argue that it pre-dates the Victorian age a touch, and was at least nascent during the Industrial revolution, but that is by-the-by.
Indeed. Like I said, it is an ancient system.

My point is that it is a defining part of American culture, although it is not exclusive to the USA, nor was it invented there. An argument can certainly be made that it exists in its purest form there.
Yes, nowadays it does. What I meant was it once existed in its purest form in Victorian England. Out of curiosity, isn't Hong Kong the freest region in economic terms nowadays?

Similarly, engineering was not an American invention, but is an important part of their culture.
Agreed.

via a Brit in exile, but that's beside the point. I'm not claiming that all these things were purely US inventions by any stretch of the imagination, but are are either defining cultural characteristics, particular strands or notable for their achievements within the context of those in similar schools in other nations.
Agreed again then.

What Meville are you talking about?

Melville. Wrote a big thick book about hunting a big thick animal.

Well i never said inventing paper was china's culture did I......

What Meville are you talking about?
Herman. Wrote Moby Dick, Billy Budd and a whole mess of short stories.

Democracy is nearly in every country, plus Democracy is more of a greek thing to me. Beside, look at the president democracy gave you...twice
Federal Republican Constitutional Democracy is a very American thing.

And didn't I say that American culture is an integrative culture?

If you want to include economy as a cultural thing then well dont Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, Luxembourg and many more have such great cultures
It's certainly a part of their cultures.

Good old french

Fomenko? Fucking nutter.

Granted, but he makes for fun reading. I try to keep up with the fringes, you never know when a nugget's going to pop up in all that ... sludge, and they are fun. Though they need to proof-read more.

Out of curiosity, isn't Hong Kong the freest region in economic terms nowadays?

Yeah, well I was going to add a caveat about 'purest form, excluding countries so small as to be anomalous' or suchlike, as territories such as Hong Kong may have a more advanced capitalist system, but not one which is engrained in a particularly recognisable culture.

If you want to include economy as a cultural thing then well dont Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, Luxembourg and many more have such great cultures

Did I ever claim other countries didn't have cultures?

Yeah, well I was going to add a caveat about 'purest form, excluding countries so small as to be anomalous' or suchlike, as territories such as Hong Kong may have a more advanced capitalist system, but not one which is engrained in a particularly recognisable culture.
Right, then I suppose you could indeed argue that the USA has the purest form of capitalism extant within its confines. :) One could say that the US still doesn't have the degree of social liberties that would accompany purer forms of capitalism, but then no modern nation really achieves this either...yet. It's still a good deal freer than most other nations, and nowhere else have I seen individualism (a necessary component of capitalism) so deeply engrained in a culture as the US.

please open another thread for american culture talk we were talking about ancient china and their achievments.

As for my new look on history just make research on Sumerian and Etruscan Culture, most of my resources are from Turkish scientists like Muazzez İlmiye Çığ. Just read more about those two civilizations if the subject has picked your curiosity. Basicly the common ties are language and art which are main carriers of culture. European languages has nothing to do with greek but a descendant of Etrusc language and culture. The true history is kept in the dark and a role model is written for europe.

Did they invent the Chinese burn?

European languages has nothing to do with greek but a descendant of Etrusc language and culture.

Ergo, Greek is not a European language?

please open another thread for american culture talk we were talking about ancient china and their achievments.

As for my new look on history just make research on Sumerian and Etruscan Culture, most of my resources are from Turkish scientists like Muazzez İlmiye Çığ. Just read more about those two civilizations if the subject has picked your curiosity. Basicly the common ties are language and art which are main carriers of culture. European languages has nothing to do with greek but a descendant of Etrusc language and culture. The true history is kept in the dark and a role model is written for europe.

We can't actually read Etruscan beyond maybe a few words given to us by Latin writers. Beyond stating that, I'm not even sure where to begin. A direct connection between the Etruscans and the Sumerians? Across a thousand miles and a thousand years? Words, wherever descended from, fail me.

please open another thread for american culture talk we were talking about ancient china and their achievments.

As for my new look on history just make research on Sumerian and Etruscan Culture, most of my resources are from Turkish scientists like Muazzez İlmiye Çığ. Just read more about those two civilizations if the subject has picked your curiosity. Basicly the common ties are language and art which are main carriers of culture. European languages has nothing to do with greek but a descendant of Etrusc language and culture. The true history is kept in the dark and a role model is written for europe.

please supply links for this (if in english). Neither Sumerian nor Etruscan were indo-european languages.
Art, though is different as its believed that the roman were etruscans originaly or at least heavily influenced by them

no greek is not a european language, it has been adopted very late and currently there is not much research being done about it. There is a status quo in european history and politically its kept so.

no greek is not a european language, it has been adopted very late and currently there is not much research being done about it. There is a status quo in european history and politically its kept so.

what? it is an indo-european is it not? There are artifacts of Linear B going back 1600 BC. How is it not european?

no greek is not a european language, it has been adopted very late and currently there is not much research being done about it. There is a status quo in european history and politically its kept so.

Modern Greek and Ancient Greek are two totally different languages, much like modern English is different from Old English. A couple thousand years of linguistic mutation will have that effect on a language, after all. But Ancient Greek is exactly that, Ancient. It's been around for thousands of years.

Wooo thread jacking...


Anyway, I think its funny how time have changed since then.

Two words: Industrial Revolution

Two more words: The Microchip

Dang. How'd I miss this one last night and this morning?

At least nobody's tried to palm off the old pasta myth. (FYI developed independantly, but modern pasta was an Arab invention.

That would be news to the Japanese. Chinese are Sino, Japanese are Mongoloids and are more closely related to Koreans than Chinese in terms of ethnisity.

Not to mention a large dollop of Polynesian (and Melanesian as well?)

Not to mention the Japanese language is related to Turkish more than to Chinese (apartently everyon was wandering around for a long time before ending up here).

well then u obviously dont know that the japanese formal language is a combination of chinese characters and two other scripts. and there is also some proof that many chinese people settled there

You didn't hardly get spanked enough for that brain fart.

The Chinese invented Kung Fu. From Kung Fu came Bruce Lee and from there, Chuck Norris.

'Nough said.

And you can't be spanked enough for dragging the stupid CN thing back into the light. :rolleyes:

ok ok.
back on topic. So what if china invented certain things first?
Mass production was first done by the phoenicians.
Yet it is due to Ford an american that it is so wide spread today.

Yes the chinese had the compass first. Yipee, great to know if someone is a northern/easter/souther/western barbarian. They never sailed the globe, etc...

Regardless of who invents a technology it is the ones that use it most effectively that are remembered and praised.

Modern Greek and Ancient Greek are two totally different languages, much like modern English is different from Old English. A couple thousand years of linguistic mutation will have that effect on a language, after all. But Ancient Greek is exactly that, Ancient. It's been around for thousands of years.

When I find where I have put relative information I will open a thread and let you know. Of course greek is ancient but greek as a part of european culture is very late, its imported later and changed but not the actual root of europeans culture it is.

And you can't be spanked enough for dragging the stupid CN thing back into the light. :rolleyes:


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
blasphemy!:mad:

When I find where I have put relative information I will open a thread and let you know. Of course greek is ancient but greek as a part of european culture is very late, its imported later and changed but not the actual root of europeans culture it is.

Yoda? is that you?

When I find where I have put relative information I will open a thread and let you know. Of course greek is ancient but greek as a part of european culture is very late, its imported later and changed but not the actual root of europeans culture it is.

It's influences cannot be denied, for example, take a look at the Alphabet, while it is different from the dominant Latin alphabet, there are striking similarities. Not to mention the fact that the Cyrillic Alphabet is decidedly from the Greek Alphabet. I mean, Christ, look at the word Alphabet.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
blasphemy!:mad:

The whole Chuck Norris crap is old, lame, and just plain stupid. Get on with things and quit living last year's tired crappy shit.

The whole Chuck Norris crap is old, lame, and just plain stupid. Get on with things and quit living last year's tired crappy shit.

No! :P

And it was just two months ago.

No! :P

And it was just two months ago.

Go find some spam thread.

No! :P

And it was just two months ago.

Go find some spam thread.

Yes the chinese had the compass first. Yipee, great to know if someone is a northern/easter/souther/western barbarian. They never sailed the globe, etc...

Regardless of who invents a technology it is the ones that use it most effectively that are remembered and praised.

They DID discover America, though (and the Vikings before them :p ).

Kidding, lol. Turns out the 1421 theory is just another sensationalist money-making hoax (either that or a very unprofessionally concocted work of science).

But the Vikings... Who knows? ;)

In terms of what? Western art styles? Yes, they were slower in that because their artistic bents took them to different areas where they were doing quite well.
In terms of time. Seriously, painting in China hardly changed at all between 1100 and 1700.

Oh, and I'm so glad to see that Keith's "fixed" all the problems with the forums, and that this is now the best of all possible forums, Dr. Pangloss. :rolleyes:

In terms of time. Seriously, painting in China hardly changed at all between 1100 and 1700.

Not quite; styles changed fairly dramatically during the period, but the subject matter remained generally consistent over the period.

But the Vikings... Who knows? ;)

Err... There's quite abit of well documented evidence for the Norse visits to Vinland.

But the Vikings... Who knows? ;)
The vikings actually left artifacts in the Americas.

The vikings actually left artifacts in the Americas.

I post-Soviet Vinland, you are the artifacts! :D

But seriously, folks ... I do think we've answered the OP's question: "Is it just me ...?" Yes, it's just you. The Chinese invented lots of interesting and cool stuff. So did Western Europeans. The Europeans had a better public relations firm.

Yoda? is that you?

I think it must be. And I wait eagerly for the promised thread.

In terms of time. Seriously, painting in China hardly changed at all between 1100 and 1700.

That is also something of an advantage, since a modern Chinese person can (relativly easily) read books from a thosand years ago, whereas English speakers have trouble understanding Shakespear :P

Harmonia Mortus Redux;11669126']That is also something of an advantage, since a modern Chinese person can (relativly easily) read books from a thosand years ago, whereas English speakers have trouble understanding Shakespear :P

*sigh* True. And no self-respecting speaker of English ought to have a lot of trouble with Shakespeare. Go back 1,000 years and yes, the English of that day is essentially a foreign language (though I do suspect style and vocabulary may give a modern Chinese person some pause).

Yoda? is that you?

comes and goes it does, a floating consciousness of mass human psyche perhaps

no, sodom and gamora had Anal sex before China was even a thought!

*sigh* True. And no self-respecting speaker of English ought to have a lot of trouble with Shakespeare. Go back 1,000 years and yes, the English of that day is essentially a foreign language (though I do suspect style and vocabulary may give a modern Chinese person some pause).

Depends on the Shakespear and how it was written down. 'Authentic' Shapespear can be quite difficult to get through, the 'dumbed down' or 'translated' versions where they take out all the 1500's stuff except for the 'ye' and 'yor' and such are pretty simple :P
You only have to go back to the 1400's for good 'ol Middle English though, the 1500's was the transition to the sort we speak today. Wiki gives some examples:

Syððan wæs geworden þæt he ferde þurh þa ceastre and þæt castel: godes rice prediciende and bodiende. and hi twelfe mid. And sume wif þe wæron gehælede of awyrgdum gastum: and untrumnessum: seo magdalenisce maria ofþære seofan deoflu uteodon: and iohanna chuzan wif herodes gerefan: and susanna and manega oðre þe him of hyra spedum þenedon;
— Translation of Luke 8.1–3 from the New Testament (C. 1000)

And it is don, aftirward Jesus made iourne bi cites & castelis prechende & euangelisende þe rewme of god, & twelue wiþ hym & summe wymmen þat weren helid of wicke spiritis & sicnesses, marie þat is clepid maudeleyn, of whom seuene deuelis wenten out & Jone þe wif off chusi procuratour of eroude, & susanne & manye oþere þat mynystreden to hym of her facultes
— Luke 8.1–3 (C. 1400)

The 1550's was when Early Modern English started coming about, so you see some Middle-English-ness in Shakespear.

Harmonia Mortus Redux;11669448']Depends on the Shakespear and how it was written down. 'Authentic' Shapespear can be quite difficult to get through, the 'dumbed down' or 'translated' versions where they take out all the 1500's stuff except for the 'ye' and 'yor' and such are pretty simple :P
You only have to go back to the 1400's for good 'ol Middle English though, the 1500's was the transition to the sort we speak today. Wiki gives some examples:

Syððan wæs geworden þæt he ferde þurh þa ceastre and þæt castel: godes rice prediciende and bodiende. and hi twelfe mid. And sume wif þe wæron gehælede of awyrgdum gastum: and untrumnessum: seo magdalenisce maria ofþære seofan deoflu uteodon: and iohanna chuzan wif herodes gerefan: and susanna and manega oðre þe him of hyra spedum þenedon;
— Translation of Luke 8.1–3 from the New Testament (C. 1000)

And it is don, aftirward Jesus made iourne bi cites & castelis prechende & euangelisende þe rewme of god, & twelue wiþ hym & summe wymmen þat weren helid of wicke spiritis & sicnesses, marie þat is clepid maudeleyn, of whom seuene deuelis wenten out & Jone þe wif off chusi procuratour of eroude, & susanne & manye oþere þat mynystreden to hym of her facultes
— Luke 8.1–3 (C. 1400)

The 1550's was when Early Modern English started coming about, so you see some Middle-English-ness in Shakespear.

True, true, but I've never had too much trouble with late 1500's, early 1600's stuff, at least, not Shakespeare's stuff. But he was a good writer and I'm woefully over-eductated, so ...

No, no, no! The Russians inwented everythingk! Don't you know anythingk about your history?*

*Huge cookie for the person who gets that reference.

Thank you, Mr. Chekov. Ahead Warp Factor Two.

Heck, I dont think America even has a culture

That is like equating "Chop Suey" to Chinese cooking.

well i compare a 80 year-old culture to lets say france which stretch back at least a 1000years

An 80 year culture?
Seriously. Pick up a book. We may not have been here for a thousand years, but according to you, America has only existed since 1926.

An 80 year culture?
Seriously. Pick up a book. We may not have been here for a thousand years, but according to you, America has only existed since 1926.

Ah yes, 1926... The year the United States was founded...

Wait a minute, no it wasn't! What the hell did happen that year!?

I mean we have korean food,chinese food,russian food,french food, german food but whats american food? Mcdonals?

http://www.chefrick.com/html/cajun-creole.html
http://www.texascooking.com/
http://bama.ua.edu/~bgray/recipes.htm
http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/newengl.html
http://www.foodtv.com/food/show_ss/episode/0,1976,FOOD_9995_21770,00.html
http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/midwest.html

Your biases are painful to see.

-snip-

Clearly, it seems that immigrants took their traditional recipies and adapted them to the New World; they added in new ingredients and even created new dishes through contact with other cultures. We're really a hotbed of culinary innovation and change; it's remarkable to see the number of different cultures behind America's favorite dishes.

American cuisine has an incredible number of variations because of our regionality; parts of the country can be so different that they have unique cuisines, just like different cultures.

It's influences cannot be denied, for example, take a look at the Alphabet, while it is different from the dominant Latin alphabet, there are striking similarities. Not to mention the fact that the Cyrillic Alphabet is decidedly from the Greek Alphabet. I mean, Christ, look at the word Alphabet.
TLN does not have a clue of what he is talking about, quite simply. What I think he is referring to is the fact that the Greeks adopted the Phoenician alhabet (formed from aleph and beta). Ancient Greek was a language created and spoken by the Greeks though, as well as used as the foundations for Latin. Latin and/or Greek to an extent influence all European languages, even some of the germanic ones (moreso Latin here, even if limited influences). As you noted, Eastern European languages indeed owe much to the Byzantine Greeks. Ergo, TLN's entire thesis is flawed. As for Modern Greek (I am fluent in it, and can read ancient Greek), it has a huge basis in Ancient Greek, even though, as all languages do, it evolved over time. In addition to this, it has significant additions from Romance languages, especially French and Italian. This is partially due to Frankish and Venetian conquests of Greek territories in medieval times, and largely due to Greece's heavy amount of contact with France, England, Russia and Germany during the 19th century, at which time it was greatly influenced by the Enlightenment.

So, no matter how you look at it, Greek is a European language. TLN is not as objective as he'd like to lead us to believe, given the obvious biases the Turkish education system often instills in its pupils...

*sigh* True. And no self-respecting speaker of English ought to have a lot of trouble with Shakespeare. Go back 1,000 years and yes, the English of that day is essentially a foreign language (though I do suspect style and vocabulary may give a modern Chinese person some pause).

Shakespearean English, aka Early Modern English, is so very similar to what is spoken now that anyone who CAN'T understand 95% of it or better ought to be beaten with a soggy lasagna noodle.

Old English: (approximately 900 AD)

On anginne gesceop God Heofenan and Eorthan. Seo Eorthe sothlice waes ydel and aemtig and theostru waeron ofer thaere niwelnisse bradnissee and godes gast waes geferod ofer waeteru. God cwaeth tha, geweorthe leoht: and leloth wearth geworht.

Middle English (about 1390, an excerpt from a tale by Chaucer)

A povre Wydwe, somdeel stape in age
Was whilom dwellyng in a narwe cotage,
Biside a grove, stondyng in a dale.
Thjis wydwe, of which I telle yow my tale,
Syn thilke day that she was last a wyf,
In pacience ladde a ful symple lyf…


Shakespeare’s English (excerpt from Romeo and Juliet, about 1590)
But soft! What light through yonder window breaks?
It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
Who is already sick and pale with grief
That thou, her maid, art far more fair than she.

Now which is closest to our own modern version of the language? ;)

Ah yes, 1926... The year the United States was founded...

Wait a minute, no it wasn't! What the hell did happen that year!?

There was a nasty hurricane in Florida and Route 66 was established, but other than that I've got nothing.

Clearly, it seems that immigrants took their traditional recipies and adapted them to the New World; they added in new ingredients and even created new dishes through contact with other cultures. We're really a hotbed of culinary innovation and change; it's remarkable to see the number of different cultures behind America's favorite dishes.

American cuisine has an incredible number of variations because of our regionality; parts of the country can be so different that they have unique cuisines, just like different cultures.

Indeed, but as you said it's the way we've adapted them and embraced them that makes them American. I doubt seriously that Creole dishes would be embraced as "French" in France, although they do owe a LOT to French cuisine.

To equate all American food to McDonalds would be as lame as equating all British food to the chip shop or all Chinese food to Chop Suey (which btw was invented here during the Gold Rush.)

There was a nasty hurricane in Florida and Route 66 was established, but other than that I've got nothing.

Florida blows, and Route 66 is lame.

Harmonia Mortus Redux;11669126']That is also something of an advantage, since a modern Chinese person can (relativly easily) read books from a thosand years ago, whereas English speakers have trouble understanding Shakespear :P
Um... no they can't. The language has shifted, even in China. Not to mention that, techincally speaking, the PRC now uses simplified Chinese vs the RC which still uses the traditional Chinese. Now those folks on Taiwan will have an easier time of it, but they will still have trouble with it, like us with Middle English (Thanks, Kat, for the sample).

Not to mention a large dollop of Polynesian (and Melanesian as well?)
There's that too. It's actually really funny when you look at where all the people who make up the Japanese came from.

It totally blows a certain Governor of Tokyo's ideals out of the water. :D

You didn't hardly get spanked enough for that brain fart.
Sorry, I caught that right before heading off to sleep so I was being brief. :p

Um... no they can't. The language has shifted, even in China. Not to mention that, techincally speaking, the PRC now uses simplified Chinese vs the RC which still uses the traditional Chinese. Now those folks on Taiwan will have an easier time of it, but they will still have trouble with it, like us with Middle English (Thanks, Kat, for the sample).

The most difficult part, IIRC, is the evolution of the script. Chinese characters have evolved over time, so it becomes more and more difficult to read the farther you get back; the traditional characters currently used evolved from the clerical script, which in turn evolved from the bronzeware and seal scripts, which in turn came from the oracle bones script (there were other scripts, but these are the big ones).

Of course, the scripts earlier than the clerical script are generally unintelligible to the modern Chinese speaker, and calligraphy scripts are also hard to read, especially for people who only know the Simplified script. And, of course, mainland Chinese will have more difficulty reading traditional characters in general than people in Taiwan or Hong Kong because of their use of the simplified script rather than the traditional script.

yes i would like to have another lesson, i dont know much about japan so start from the begining please.(this is not sarcasm)
Wiki is a good starting point for a basic broad overview. If you want some more detailed accounts, I can recomend some history books that look at what we know of ancient Japan from around when the Japanese first showed up, and the fragments that exist of the previous cultures.

The most difficult part, IIRC, is the evolution of the script. Chinese characters have evolved over time, so it becomes more and more difficult to read the farther you get back; the traditional characters currently used evolved from the clerical script, which in turn evolved from the bronzeware and seal scripts, which in turn came from the oracle bones script (there were other scripts, but these are the big ones).

Of course, the scripts earlier than the clerical script are generally unintelligible to the modern Chinese speaker, and calligraphy scripts are also hard to read, especially for people who only know the Simplified script. And, of course, mainland Chinese will have more difficulty reading traditional characters in general than people in Taiwan or Hong Kong because of their use of the simplified script rather than the traditional script.
Yup, and the language itself has also changed (not to mention WHICH language we're talking about). When I was at university, I had as a history professor a respected scholar of ancient Chinese medicine texts, who pretty much said the same thing, the older texts are not the same as the current texts and unless you study, modern Chinese can't just pick them up and read them. In effect, some of the older stories have to be translated the same as Chaucer does to modern usage before people can understand them.

most notably the Holy Roman Empire of Germany and the Frankish kingdoms.

Aha...now I get to use this.

The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman and was not much of an empire too.

Yup, and the language itself has also changed (not to mention WHICH language we're talking about). When I was at university, I had as a history professor a respected scholar of ancient Chinese medicine texts, who pretty much said the same thing, the older texts are not the same as the current texts and unless you study, modern Chinese can't just pick them up and read them. In effect, some of the older stories have to be translated the same as Chaucer does to modern usage before people can understand them.

And, of course, it's further complicated by the various dialects that have emerged and died out over the course of the language's evolution; you also have to include the foreign influence, in particular the introduction of Xiongnu, Mongol, and Manchu terms in to the northern dialects over the course of the country's history.

I know for certain that there are at least four periods of Mandarin Chinese language evolution; Old Chinese, Middle Chinese, Proto-Mandarin, and modern Mandarin.

Aha...now I get to use this.

The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman and was not much of an empire too.
Meh, I hate that saying. Well, in absence of a better term for the German kingdoms of the time, it gets the job done. Plus it has a cool sound to it. ^^

In effect, some of the older stories have to be translated the same as Chaucer does to modern usage before people can understand them.

Transliterating Chaucer into contemporary English isn't hard: its the kind of thing a great deal of seventeen year olds do at school in the UK. It takes a knowledge of maybe sixty or so words which are commonly used by him and a reference list of maybe a few hundred infrequently used terms. The vast majority of it can be figured out simply by reading aloud.

Transliterating Chaucer into contemporary English isn't hard: its the kind of thing a great deal of seventeen year olds do at school in the UK. It takes a knowledge of maybe sixty or so words which are commonly used by him and a reference list of maybe a few hundred infrequently used terms. The vast majority of it can be figured out simply by reading aloud.

Not if you read it in the original pronunciation, as one of my college profs was fond of doing. ;)

Not if you read it in the original pronunciation, as one of my college profs was fond of doing. ;)

Hmmm. I don't find this - http://www.vmi.edu/english/audio/GP-Opening.ram - impossible to understand in general, although certainly some lines just flow past me, but this is coming back to Chaucer cold after over 15 years.

When you think about it, the Chinese invent pretty much everything good, but due to their relative lack of worldliness, they don't get credit, as those inventions and ideas are spread by the Europeans who invented them independently. The only thing the West has an edge in, IMO, is the arts.

Am I right, or am I right?

well when you have that many people in one area eating basically just rice they of course get bored and start thinking up new ideas the ideas just get stollen before they get chance to maket the ideas them selves

well when you have that many people in one area eating basically just rice they of course get bored and start thinking up new ideas the ideas just get stollen before they get chance to maket the ideas them selves

Actually, rice is not as widespread as most people imagine; for much of Chinese history, it was primarily confined to regions capable of growing it reliably (mainly the humid south) and so was not a dominant part of the cuisine. Many places actually consumed wheat or millet as their main cereal crops, especially as one moves farther north and farther west.

Chinese cuisine actually is extremely varied geographically; different cultural and geographic regions have significant differences in cooking styles, ingredients and dishes.

Hmmm. I don't find this - http://www.vmi.edu/english/audio/GP-Opening.ram - impossible to understand in general, although certainly some lines just flow past me, but this is coming back to Chaucer cold after over 15 years.

Sorry, no sound on ths old clanker, so posting sound bites is no good for me. :(

But I can recall that old prof popping out with the Middle English in class.

well when you have that many people in one area eating basically just rice they of course get bored and start thinking up new ideas the ideas just get stollen before they get chance to maket the ideas them selves

Actually, rice is not as widespread as most people imagine; for much of Chinese history, it was primarily confined to regions capable of growing it reliably (mainly the humid south) and so was not a dominant part of the cuisine. Many places actually consumed wheat or millet as their main cereal crops, especially as one moves farther north and farther west.

Chinese cuisine actually is extremely varied geographically; different cultural and geographic regions have significant differences in cooking styles, ingredients and dishes.

Exactly so. And much of that is eaten in noodles.

And you can add corn (maize), and sweet and "irish" potatoes to a lesser extent, to that list as well, as they've all been grown pretty widely in China since the 1500s.

Even here in Japan, polished rice as a dietary staple is a modern phenomenon, with millet and buckwheat being the common staples for much of history.

See, everyone is just confused. The chinese invented everything. They just have a culture with is averse to glory and attention. So they invent things, and leak their inventions to 'guai los' so they can take all of the glory in their foolishness, meanwhile the chinese maintain their 'smiling tiger' in preparation for that one day when they can use their innocuous nature to strike. Don't worry, it has almost been 10 millenia and they haven't made the move yet.

The chinese invented everything! Sex, women, porn, air, the moon... these are all products of the middle kingdom. Not to mention the 'space bar' and jesus (The wise men were actually shaolin who convinced everyone in bethlehem that Jesus was born). They say that at any one point in time, wherever you may be, there are at least 3 chinese people watching you, in hiding. You know the real reason why the Apollo 11 tape was faked? Because they found Emperor Qin Shi Huangdi when they arrived. He was engaging in bonsai, which Neil Armstrong returned to earth to 'discover'.

The funny thing is, I don't know what they are planning. I don't think a plain out world conquest is inscrutible enough for them. It would more like them bracing every human in a neck-snap attack, then releasing them and revelling in their enlightenment as they elevate (as a race) to a higher plane of Nirvanal nonexistence. Or something... Maybe they'll just invent the singularity.

Thats' it! No more beer for you!!

Not true. Theyve enough coal to keep them going for as long as they need it. Within 50 years we'll probably be listening to Chinese music and drinking whatever their version of Coca Cola is.

Coal is no substitute for oil. Unless you want to live in the 1800s.

No. I invented everything first. Now praise me before I uninvent humanity.

And while I didn't read most of the topic, on English: Middle English is readable by Modern English speakers, but it takes a little while to figure it out.

Coal is no substitute for oil. Unless you want to live in the 1800s.


Unless I am mistaken, quite a bit of the electricity produced here in the US comes from coal-fired plants.

Coal is no substitute for oil. Unless you want to live in the 1800s.

Three words: Fischer-Tropsch Synthesis. Add in some biofuels, nuclear, hybrids, alternative energy and simple conservation/efficiency measures and you've got an energy portfolio capable of meeting every kind of demand.

China's got plenty of coal, plenty of renewable resources, plenty of nuclear resources and the cash to finance extensive efficiency projects...and so does the US, ironically. I think we're going to be cooperating a lot more as oil approaches its peak because our resource bases are so similar. The world only uses oil because it's cheap; almost everything that currently requires oil will be replaced with alternatives as the price rises, and if it falls those alternatives will not grow in favor of oil. It's a totally market-driven dependence on oil, not some innate industrial need for it.

Three words: Fischer-Tropsch Synthesis. Add in some biofuels, nuclear, hybrids, alternative energy and simple conservation/efficiency measures and you've got an energy portfolio capable of meeting every kind of demand.

China's got plenty of coal, plenty of renewable resources, plenty of nuclear resources and the cash to finance extensive efficiency projects...and so does the US, ironically. I think we're going to be cooperating a lot more as oil approaches its peak because our resource bases are so similar. The world only uses oil because it's cheap; almost everything that currently requires oil will be replaced with alternatives as the price rises, and if it falls those alternatives will not grow in favor of oil. It's a totally market-driven dependence on oil, not some innate industrial need for it.

Oh yes? What about plastics?

Unless I am mistaken, quite a bit of the electricity produced here in the US comes from coal-fired plants.

You can make electricity with much more efficient materials than either coal or oil.

TLN does not have a clue of what he is talking about, quite simply. What I think he is referring to is the fact that the Greeks adopted the Phoenician alhabet (formed from aleph and beta). Ancient Greek was a language created and spoken by the Greeks though, as well as used as the foundations for Latin. Latin and/or Greek to an extent influence all European languages, even some of the germanic ones (moreso Latin here, even if limited influences). As you noted, Eastern European languages indeed owe much to the Byzantine Greeks. Ergo, TLN's entire thesis is flawed. As for Modern Greek (I am fluent in it, and can read ancient Greek), it has a huge basis in Ancient Greek, even though, as all languages do, it evolved over time. In addition to this, it has significant additions from Romance languages, especially French and Italian. This is partially due to Frankish and Venetian conquests of Greek territories in medieval times, and largely due to Greece's heavy amount of contact with France, England, Russia and Germany during the 19th century, at which time it was greatly influenced by the Enlightenment.

So, no matter how you look at it, Greek is a European language. TLN is not as objective as he'd like to lead us to believe, given the obvious biases the Turkish education system often instills in its pupils...

No no no its not about it, its about traditional history thats thaught worldwide. There is new research going on which is just too young yet but going extensively into further back of acknowledged history. The damn problem is there are a few top of the line researchers working on it and not producing enough material and not in all languages. And whatever they produce is denied at univercities by fat ass professors who rather teach what they already know instead of learning and researching something new. History became stagnant with politics. Its Ottoman islam in Turkiye and Greek-roman christian in europe, denying what lied under our shaman and pagan pasts. Assimilation and denial.

The traditional turkish education system has been degenerated into repeat of our historic military success in Ottoman era and leaving all else nearly blank. It does not cover the failures of system the collapse of huge imperial bureucracy etc. As for european education system its just looking at romans and greeks in awe and not digging the history of what was it like before them? And actually more than whats thaught at schools its about what academic high ups believe in, there are strong academic myths stopping the science from progressing in denial of every other possibility of whats already known.

The new history Im talking about streches far back from 6500 years ago to 15000 years ago and there are two main civilizations in this, western civilizations taking root from Etruscan and Eastern Civilizations from Sumerian. And those two main branches are going furter deep into humanitys common history of what the hell its all about?

Alas, as there are Turkish people who get angry when you tell them we had a past before Ottoman empire and must research it, you get angry and blame me when I tell you there is a history before greeks and romans. There is no difference of close minded people in the world it seems.

OK so for the past 16 pages we had talked about

Chinese inventions and Culture
Rome vs China
Roman Empire's contribution
Culture
American Culture
Languages
Roman intermarriages
Byzantine Empire
What is the defination of Culture
Translating Shakesphere
Electricity

OK so for the past 16 pages we had talked about

American Culture

So, care to explain why Melville (assuming you now know who he was) doesn't count as culture?

I thought Meville as in the Meville Coporation in America

I thought Meville as in the Meville Coporation in America

Melville.

Anyhow: you claim the US has no culture pre-1956, so why doesn't Melville count as culture in your book?

The new history Im talking about streches far back from 6500 years ago to 15000 years ago and there are two main civilizations in this, western civilizations taking root from Etruscan and Eastern Civilizations from Sumerian. And those two main branches are going furter deep into humanitys common history of what the hell its all about?
Then prove it. There are no characteristics of the Etruscan civilisation that are of any relevance to the West. Going that far back in time also is meaningless, because civilisations only formed properly after around 4000 BC in Europe. The West is defined by certain characteristics endemic to Greco-roman/germanic culture, the capitalist economic system and to an extent Christianity. Note, that this would include the assimilation of Egyptian/Babylonian ideas and of Pagan elements, which were later refined by the constituent bases of the West I referred to.

You are challenging orthodox historical interpretations, now provide substantial grounds for this challenge. You must prove that the Etruscan civilisation had the necessary characteristics that shape the West, or contributed significantly to this. Otherwise, the orthodox interpretation remains.

I am not a close-minded person, but I do demand evidence.

OK so for the past 16 pages we had talked about

Chinese inventions and Culture
Rome vs China
Roman Empire's contribution
Culture
American Culture
Languages
Roman intermarriages
Byzantine Empire
What is the defination of Culture
Translating Shakesphere
Electricity
Ah NS General at its best... :D

Oh yes? What about plastics?

Plastics only account for 4% of the petroleum consumed, and of that plastic we only recycle 12% of them...that means at least 80% of the petroleum consumed for plastics is simply for replacing the plastics already consumed.

So, if we recycled half of our plastic we'd only need 1.72 million bpd to meet the entire world's plastic demand. For reference, the US produces almost 5 times that much oil by itself. Even if we didn't recycle, we'd only need 3.5 million bpd which is still less than US oil production.

Plus, bioplastics are getting more advanced...they're already capable of replacing some petroleum-based plastics entirely.

No no no its not about it, its about traditional history thats thaught worldwide. There is new research going on which is just too young yet but going extensively into further back of acknowledged history. The damn problem is there are a few top of the line researchers working on it and not producing enough material and not in all languages. And whatever they produce is denied at univercities by fat ass professors who rather teach what they already know instead of learning and researching something new. History became stagnant with politics. Its Ottoman islam in Turkiye and Greek-roman christian in europe, denying what lied under our shaman and pagan pasts. Assimilation and denial.

The traditional turkish education system has been degenerated into repeat of our historic military success in Ottoman era and leaving all else nearly blank. It does not cover the failures of system the collapse of huge imperial bureucracy etc. As for european education system its just looking at romans and greeks in awe and not digging the history of what was it like before them? And actually more than whats thaught at schools its about what academic high ups believe in, there are strong academic myths stopping the science from progressing in denial of every other possibility of whats already known.

The new history Im talking about streches far back from 6500 years ago to 15000 years ago and there are two main civilizations in this, western civilizations taking root from Etruscan and Eastern Civilizations from Sumerian. And those two main branches are going furter deep into humanitys common history of what the hell its all about?

Alas, as there are Turkish people who get angry when you tell them we had a past before Ottoman empire and must research it, you get angry and blame me when I tell you there is a history before greeks and romans. There is no difference of close minded people in the world it seems.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. Or some proofs, anyway.

Calling academic professionals who do not agree with you "fat ass professors who rather teach what they already know instead of learning and researching something new" is not a proof, it's name-calling.

The Sumerians certainly were one of the great, early civilizations and as such they had a profound effect on those who followed them (witness, for example, the Akkadian habit of using Sumerian words and writing to convey their own, very different language).

The Etruscans are important locally in Italy, but there is no real consensus on where they came from (did they originate in Italy or did they migrate from the East?). Their language we cannot translate with any certainty, though it seems we do know how it was pronounced because they used a modification of the Greek alphabet to write it. The Etruscans had an influence on the early development of Rome which cannot be denied, though the extent of that influence is a matter for debate. But to call the Etruscans the basis of western civilization is simply not correct.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. Or some proofs, anyway.

Calling academic professionals who do not agree with you "fat ass professors who rather teach what they already know instead of learning and researching something new" is not a proof, it's name-calling.

The Sumerians certainly were one of the great, early civilizations and as such they had a profound effect on those who followed them (witness, for example, the Akkadian habit of using Sumerian words and writing to convey their own, very different language).

The Etruscans are important locally in Italy, but there is no real consensus on where they came from (did they originate in Italy or did they migrate from the East?). Their language we cannot translate with any certainty, though it seems we do know how it was pronounced because they used a modification of the Greek alphabet to write it. The Etruscans had an influence on the early development of Rome which cannot be denied, though the extent of that influence is a matter for debate. But to call the Etruscans the basis of western civilization is simply not correct.
As I said I will gather some sources and make a thread about this, give scientists and books names to help.

Somebody's probably said this already, but they didn't invent cheese or ice cream.

Plastics only account for 4% of the petroleum consumed, and of that plastic we only recycle 12% of them...that means at least 80% of the petroleum consumed for plastics is simply for replacing the plastics already consumed.

So, if we recycled half of our plastic we'd only need 1.72 million bpd to meet the entire world's plastic demand. For reference, the US produces almost 5 times that much oil by itself. Even if we didn't recycle, we'd only need 3.5 million bpd which is still less than US oil production.

Plus, bioplastics are getting more advanced...they're already capable of replacing some petroleum-based plastics entirely.

Though wasting oil by burning it for fuel in my view is wrong, especially in power plants where there are good alternatives. Fuel for motors I can accept for the moment untill a proper substitute is developed. If we only used oil for making plastics then we would not have such an issue about supply which will affect us not only for power and fuel but also having to replace some of the most useful materials of the modern era.

No, no, no! The Russians inwented everythingk! Don't you know anythingk about your history?*

*Huge cookie for the person who gets that reference.

Star Trek characters aside, the Russians do in fact have an attitude of "we did it first" and "we did it by ourselves". ;)

Somebody's probably said this already, but they didn't invent cheese or ice cream.

Asian people seem to be genetically lactose-intolerant, but I bet they would have otherwise. Actually, some Chinese restaurants do offer something called "cheese," but my memory of it is something that belongs over on the the "terrible foods in other countries" thread.

Though wasting oil by burning it for fuel in my view is wrong, especially in power plants where there are good alternatives. Fuel for motors I can accept for the moment untill a proper substitute is developed. If we only used oil for making plastics then we would not have such an issue about supply which will affect us not only for power and fuel but also having to replace some of the most useful materials of the modern era.
even the types of plastics are changing today. Against the growing waste threat its becoming necessary to make nature friendly plastics needing less amounts of oil.

Well...

Invented by [insert country here].
Perfected by [insert country here].

Star Trek characters aside, the Russians do in fact have an attitude of "we did it first" and "we did it by ourselves". ;)

Which is funny, because unlike the Chinese, the Russians haven't actually done anything. They've always been behind. They still are.