NationStates Jolt Archive

Vote on the resolution could come as early as tomorrow. Any takers on what the vote will be?the resolution (what ever it is) will pass..

What are you bets on the content???? (that is the question)

#1 Will they require Israel to leave Lebanon?
#2 Will they require all sides to stop shooting.. or just Hezbollah?
#3 Will they require Hezbollah to surrender?

Most UN Resolutions on Israel issues.. have been ignored..
I am not holding my breath for this one.

the resolution (what ever it is) will pass..

What are you bets on the content???? (that is the question)

#1 Will they require Israel to leave Lebanon?
#2 Will they require all sides to stop shooting.. or just Hezbollah?
#3 Will they require Hezbollah to surrender?

Most UN Resolution concernong Israel issues.. have never been taken seruously..
I am not holding my breath for this one.

First, Israel will withdraw when the International Force arrives

Second, All sides will require to stop shooting

Third, Hezbollah is to be disarmed.

the resolution (what ever it is) will pass..

What are you bets on the content???? (that is the question)

#1 Will they require Israel to leave Lebanon?
#2 Will they require all sides to stop shooting.. or just Hezbollah?
#3 Will they require Hezbollah to surrender?


If you think ANY organization, even the UN, can REQUIRE a sovereign state to do...well...anything, you are sorely mistaken and need to spend some time learning about international politics.

If you think ANY organization, even the UN, can REQUIRE a sovereign state to do...well...anything, you are sorely mistaken and need to spend some time learning about international politics.

Even though theoretically, UN SC Resolutions have the full force of International law behind it and violating UNSC Resolutions is violating International Law.

dp

Even though theoretically, UN SC Resolutions have the full force of International law behind it and violating UNSC Resolutions is violating International Law.

You prove my point when I ask one simple question.

What force of international law?

If you, in the United States, comit a criminal act, the police and court officers can FORCE you into prison. If you commit a civil act and are found liable, you can be FORCED to pay, and if you don't they can take your property, and if you resist you can be held, by FORCE.

If something has the "full force" of international law, what force is that? If you are arrested and sent to jail and you say "no", then you can be physically, violently HAULED into the jail cell and made to serve your sentence.

If the UN orders Israel out of Lebanon and Israel says "no", the UN does...what, exactly? Ask again? yes they have the "full force of international law".

International law has no force. There is nothing higher than the sovereign, all international law is voluntary. There is no force of international law.

If you think ANY organization, even the UN, can REQUIRE a sovereign state to do...well...anything, you are sorely mistaken and need to spend some time learning about international politics.answer one question:

Can the UNSC require Israel to give up nukes (and/or nuklear-weapons research) ??

answer one question:

Can the UNSC require Israel to give up nukes (and/or nuklear-weapons research) ??

No, because Israel was never a party to the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Iran, on the other hand, is a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and thus can be sanctioned for withdrawing from it or violating it.

Simple.

If the UN orders Israel out of Lebanon and Israel says "no", the UN does...what, exactly? Ask again? yes they have the "full force of international law".

Absolutely nothing! Which goes to show why the UN is ineffective in their mandate. It has nothing to do with Vetos either.

International law has no force. There is nothing higher than the sovereign, all international law is voluntary. There is no force of international law.

Sad is it not?

answer one question:

Can the UNSC require Israel to give up nukes and/or nuklear-weapons research ??

Nope.

The UNSC can say "we demand that Israel dismantle their nuclear weapons".

And what does the UNSC do next when israel says "screw you"?

The UNSC can REQUEST, they can even DEMAND, but they can not REQUIRE. The only way to MAKE someone, or some state do something is by force. The only way to REQUIRE Israel to give up nukes is to have the ability to go into Israel, destroy their nuclear weapons, and survive the retaliation.

What force does the UNSC have to enforce their demands? In what way can they REQUIRE Israel to do anything?

Nope.

The UNSC can say "we demand that Israel dismantle their nuclear weapons".

And what does the UNSC do next when israel says "screw you"?

The UNSC can REQUEST, they can even DEMAND, but they can not REQUIRE. The only way to MAKE someone, or some state do something is by force. The only way to REQUIRE Israel to give up nukes is to have the ability to go into Israel, destroy their nuclear weapons, and survive the retaliation.

What force does the UNSC have to enforce their demands? In what way can they REQUIRE Israel to do anything?

They can not even do that as Israel is not a party to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

can be sanctioned for withdrawing I see..

So the US is to be sanctioned (just like Iran) for withdrawing from Kyoto/Geneva or any other treaty...

Iran, on the other hand, is a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and thus can be sanctioned for withdrawing from it or violating it.

Even then it's still not a REQUIREMENT. To REQUIRE someone to do something is to say "do it, or we will MAKE you do it."

Sanctions don't do that, they say "do it, or we will do something else." That's still CHOICE. Get rid of your nukes, or suffer sanctions, keep your nukes or keep your aid. your choice. It may COMPELL, but it does not REQUIRE.

To REQUIRE something is to have the ability to MAKE the other side comply, even in the case of the non proliferation treaty, the UN can not MAKE Iran disarm because they have no ability to force them to.

THe US may have that power, in that they CAN go into Iran, dismantle the weapons, and FORCE Iran to comply, through military.

But the UN can't.

I see..

So the US is to be sanctioned (just like Iran) for withdrawing from Kyoto/Geneva or any other treaty...

No, it depends on the wording of the treaty.

The NNPT has penalties.

Nope.

The UNSC can say "we demand that Israel dismantle their nuclear weapons".

And what does the UNSC do next when israel says "screw you"?world wide trade embargo.

I see..

So the US is to be sanctioned (just like Iran) for withdrawing from Kyoto/Geneva or any other treaty...

Can not be sanctioned for Kyoto because we never ratified Kyoto. We have not withdrawn from Geneva either. Only one we have withdrawn from that I can remember is the ABM Treaty that was signed with the Soviet Union that no longer exists.

They can not even do that as Israel is not a party to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

I'm speaking in hypotheticals, see my post about Iran, which is a party. The same argument holds. They can't REQUIRE any state to do ANYTHING, they do not have the ability to FORCE their demands.

Even then it's still not a REQUIREMENT. To REQUIRE someone to do something is to say "do it, or we will MAKE you do it."

Sanctions don't do that, they say "do it, or we will do something else." That's still CHOICE. Get rid of your nukes, or suffer sanctions, keep your nukes or keep your aid. your choice. It may COMPELL, but it does not REQUIRE.

To REQUIRE something is to have the ability to MAKE the other side comply, even in the case of the non proliferation treaty, the UN can not MAKE Iran disarm because they have no ability to force them to.

THe US may have that power, in that they CAN go into Iran, dismantle the weapons, and FORCE Iran to comply, through military.

But the UN can't.

What does the United Nations Charter say about all of this?

world wide trade embargo.

Would you support that for Iran and North Korea?

world wide trade embargo.

That's nice.

It's still a choice. Chose your nukes or chose your trade. They can not FORCE it, all they can do is gie a choice.

moreover, it's still the same problem. You think the UN can REQUIRE other nations to not trade with Israel because Israel doesn't give up their nukes? What does the UN say when the US says "no, screw you"?

Can not be sanctioned for Kyoto because we never ratified Kyoto. We have not withdrawn from Geneva either. Only one we have withdrawn from that I can remember is the ABM Treaty that was signed with ...Oh I see.. US/Iran cannot withdrawn from a Treaty.. but can withdrawn from some clauses. :rolleyes:

world wide trade enbargo.
Embargos don't work.

A fair number of Arab nations already have embargos against Israel, and a fat lot of good that does.

I have the impression that you believe that somehow, some Arabs are being screwed by "the system", when in fact they are so fucking stupid that they have no idea how everything works.

Signing a treaty that has penalty provisions, and then wanting to get out of the treaty with NO penalty is pretty fucking stupid.

Having peace talks, getting the other guy to make concessions, and then saying "fuck it" and starting violence is not the way to negotiate for a better deal - it's a one way ticket to get screwed.

Fighting a war with a nation that has weapons as modern as the US is pretty stupid, too.

Maybe you should stop whining about how "unfair" everything seems to be, and call up the Arab leaders you love and tell them to stop being fucking stupid beyond all possible belief.

Would you support that for Iran and North Korea?If its donne to every country in the same way (for every treaty).. Yes I would.

Oh I see.. US/Iran cannot withdrawn from a Treaty.. but can withdrawn from some clauses. :rolleyes:

No, if you're not a signatory to a treaty, no one can do anything.

If you withdraw from a treaty that has penalties, you get screwed.

If there are no penalties for withdrawal (other than the other guys might withdraw as well), it's fine to withdraw.

You're just being obtuse, and trying to believe (really hard) that the world is set up to screw Arabs.

Well, it isn't.

Oh I see.. US/Iran cannot withdrawn from a Treaty.. but can withdrawn from some clauses. :rolleyes:

Try to quote the ENTIRE thing. A treaty is a contract, nothing more. An agreement between parties. If you make an agreement to do something with another party, and that party DIES, you are absolved from the agreement.

The treaty was an agreement between the USA and the USSR. The USSR no longer exists. The US can CHOSE to continue with their obligations, or they can chose not to, but the treaty has lost any binding authority because one of the parties involved no longer exists.

Oh I see.. US/Iran cannot withdrawn from a Treaty.. but can withdrawn from some clauses. :rolleyes:

:confused:

A treaty is a contract, nothing more. An agreement between parties.

If you withdraw from a treaty that has penalties, you get screwed.

If there are no penalties for withdrawal (other than the other guys might withdraw as well), it's fine to withdraw.Treaties have penalties now?

I just cant wait to see the clauses in the Treaty that especifies the Penalty for withdrawing from the treaty.

Treaties have penalties now?

I just cant wait to see the clauses in the Treaty that especifies the Penalty for withdrawing from the treaty.

Maybe the world would make more sense to you if you actually knew something, rather than having a brain full of Arab paranoia and hallucinatory views of how the world works.

Maybe the world would make more sense ....Now.. would address the question at hand..

Would you show us a link to the written Penalty clauses for withdrawing from the treaty.

Now.. would address the question at hand..

Would you show us a link to the written Penalty clauses for withdrawing from the treaty.

It varies from treaty to treaty.

Now.. would address the question at hand..

Would you show us a link to the written Penalty clauses for withdrawing from the treaty.

Here are the conditions under which you can withdraw.

1. Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country. It shall give notice of such withdrawal to all other Parties to the Treaty and to the United Nations Security Council three months in advance. Such notice shall include a statement of the extraordinary events it regards as having jeopardized its supreme interests.

Consider that a majority of the world's nations have signed, and are going along with the treaty. If they don't accept your "extraordinary events" they're going to turn around and screw you.

Which is what is going to happen to Iran. It looks like even Russia and China are giving Iran one last chance to behave - they didn't veto this last resolution, and the chances of them being able to continue blocking things is dwindling.

Here are the conditions under which you can withdraw.



Consider that a majority of the world's nations have signed, and are going along with the treaty. If they don't accept your "extraordinary events" they're going to turn around and screw you.

Which is what is going to happen to Iran. It looks like even Russia and China are giving Iran one last chance to behave - they didn't veto this last resolution, and the chances of them being able to continue blocking things is dwindling.

And the samething happened with North Korea too.

And the samething happened with North Korea too.

Indeed. And you'll notice that North Korea isn't exactly a hotbed of Muslims.

Ocean, this isn't a world where every day is "Screw the Muslims Day", no matter how much you believe it.

It varies from treaty to treaty.
http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/trall/2006/trall060731.gif

Here are the conditions under which you can withdraw..el senhor LINK por favor ;)

el senhor LINK por favor ;)
You're implying that I somehow edited what I posted?

http://www.un.org/events/npt2005/npttreaty.html

I guess you're completely incapable of using Google to find a very common treaty.

This also does not include any side bilateral or multilateral agreements that were given as incentives for non-nuclear nations to sign the treaty.

Most of those involve favorable financial treatment, etc. Can't expect to continue to receive favorablee financial treatment if you're not going to stay in the NPT.

Your world view seems to be, "Arabs are being fucked by the world - they are the victims - boo hoo hoo hoo hoo".

I can't help it if they can't be bothered to figure out how diplomacy and treaties work.

You're implying that I somehow edited what I posted?

of course not
unlike you.. I do not claim to have mind reading powers.. :D :D ;) :D

of course not
unlike you.. I do not claim to have mind reading powers.. :D :D ;) :D
I don't have to read your mind. All I have to do is read your posts.

http://www.un.org/events/npt2005/npttreaty.html


I can't help it if they can't be bothered to figure out how diplomacy and treaties work.If your interpretation of the Treaty is correct.

NorthKorea, Iran or Brazil.. all they need to do is give a 3 months notice.. and they get their sovereignity back.

3 months and they finally acces the same sovereignity rigths as Israel.

They should all kiss this Bullshit Treaty good bye..

Rules should be the same for every Country.. and untill they get that.. they should refuse this bullshit treaty.

If your interpretation of the Treaty is correct.

NorthKorea, Iran or Brazil.. all they need to do is give a 3 months notice.. and they get their sovereignity back.

3 months and they finally acces the same sovereignity rigths as Israel.

They should all kiss this Bullshit Treaty good bye..

Rules should be the same for every Country.. and untill they get that.. they should refuse this bullshit treaty.

You really have no idea how dangerous nukes are do you? You also do not have any understanding on how diplomacy works either I bet.

If your interpretation of the Treaty is correct.

NorthKorea, Iran or Brazil.. all they need to do is give a 3 months notice.. and they get their sovereignity back.

3 months and they finally acces the same sovereignity rigths as Israel.

They should all kiss this Bullshit Treaty good bye..

Rules should be the same for every Country.. and untill they get that.. they should refuse this bullshit treaty.


Depends on what other bilateral or multilateral agreements they signed in order to get them to sign on in the first place.

As I recall, North Korea has received a considerable amount of aid and money over the past years in exchange for their cooperation - which they did not do.

Ah, so I can ask for all of that aid and money back if they want out.

I should look into what agreements Iran entered into - and what gifts they received that they should be required to pay back all at once.

You really have no idea how dangerous (sovereignity) are do you? The Kings used to say that Freedom and Democracy are very dangerous.. Tha Saudi Royals still saying it.

Rules should be the same for every Country.. and untill they get that.. they should refuse this bullshit treaty.

Umm. What's not the same. We're going to screw North Korea AND Iran for getting out of the treaty.

Are you saying that somehow, we should screw Israel, when they never were a signatory, and never made any promises, and never made any agreements, and thus are not breaking any agreements or promises?

The Kings used to say that Freedom and Democracy are very dangerous.. Tha Saudi Royals still saying it.

Nice edit of my post. Now respond to my real post.

As I recall, North Korea has received a considerable amount of aid and money over the past years in exchange for their cooperation

Ah, so I can ask for all of that aid and money back if they want out.

I should look into what agreements Iran entered into - and what gifts they received that they should be required to pay back all at once.fair enough.

Nice edit of my post. Now respond to my real post.
Ocean loves to edit quotes, in order to put words in your mouth. He also edits his own posts in order to avoid being deated.

Quote him often, and you can tell when he's edited his post, and you haven't edited his.

You really have no idea how dangerous nukes are do you? If you want World-sans-Nukes.. I could support your word.

But If you want Nukes only for You-and-your-intimate-friends.. Then I cannot support your position.

fair enough.
The problem is, North Korea doesn't have any money. Or food. They have millions of people living on the edge of starvation - not because the world is fucking them hard, but because their Dear Fucking Asshole is fucking them hard.

Iran could be a lot wealthier - but they spend 100 million per year on arming Hezbollah.

You can't dismiss it by saying, "fair enough". If you wanted them to pay back, all at once, any gifts they had received in bilateral agreements, you would bankrupt their countries.

Of course, you (and their leaders) see this as good. Obtain nuclear weapons, no matter how many people in your country starve or suffer. What a great idea!

If you want World-sans-Nukes.. I could support your word.

But If you want Nukes only for You-and-your-intimate-friends.. Then I cannot support your position.

Sorry, that's the way the world is.

The ones with the nukes (and the delivery systems) make the rules.

Ocean loves to edit quotes, in order to put words in your mouth. He also edits his own posts in order to avoid being deated.The Mod ruling is: we may edit using the ()..
If they change the rules.. I will comply.

The Mod ruling was that we could edit using the ()..
If they change the rules.. I will comply.
Rules are one thing. Your reputation as an false editor of quotes is another.

If you want World-sans-Nukes.. I could support your word.

But If you want Nukes only for You-and-your-intimate-friends.. Then I cannot support your position.

As I said, you have no idea on how the world works. China is not my friend. Neither is North Korea and Neither is Russia. These are not "intimate friends" of the United States.

Do you want to see the world glow for thousands of years?

As I said, you have no idea on how the world works. China is not my friend. Neither is North Korea and Neither is Russia. These are not "intimate friends" of the United States.

Do you want to see the world glow for thousands of years?

Ah, but to a paranoid Arab, they seem like friends. In a terribly warped way, of course.

Ah, but to a paranoid Arab, they seem like friends. In a terribly warped way, of course.

Of course. Is it to late to point out that Iran and Russia do not particularly like one another?

Of course. Is it to late to point out that Iran and Russia do not particularly like one another?
No. They do business because they are neighbors, and business is oil, and business is good.

Not because Russians all of a sudden want to become Shiites.

No. They do business because they are neighbors, and business is oil, and business is good.

Not because Russians all of a sudden want to become Shiites.

Not to mention, they both do not like the United States. The enemy of thy enemy is thy friend after all.

As I said, you have no idea on how the world works. at least you are more honest than DeepK..

Did he already sent you pics of his supossed **** ** ******??

at least you are more honest than DeepK..

Point to where I've been dishonest. Link to it.

Point to where I've been dishonest. Link to it.I could .. but I prefer not to.

I prefer to retract my statement.
either way.. I will have more time.. tonite.
// going AFK.. be back in 9h+ //

I can .. but I prefer not to.

I will have more time.. tonite.
// going AFK.. be back in 9h+ //

Running away, eh?

I can .. but I prefer not to.

This guy dodges more posts than a player in a dodgeball game dodges balls.

Running away, eh?dont push me..
I already retracted my statement..

This guy dodges more posts than a player in a dodgeball game dodges balls.
Maybe that should be his next NS name

DodgeBall

Maybe that should be his next NS name

DodgeBall

Next NS name?

Next NS name?
Like many here, he's been deated a few times, and has to come back with a new name.

Like many here, he's been deated a few times, and has to come back with a new name.

Ah ok. I get it now.

How about DodgePost then?

I'm still waiting for it to be explained how the UN can require any sovereign state to do anything at all.

I'm still waiting for it to be explained how the UN can require any sovereign state to do anything at all.good question, ask her

CondomLezz.R.US
2201 C Street NW
Washington, D.C. 20520
202-647-6575

Olmert thanks Bush for U.N. resolution
29 minutes ago

CRAWFORD, Texas - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert thanked President Bush on Friday for his work on a resolution to stop violence between Israel and Hezbollah, the White House said. It was the first direct talks between the two leaders since the fighting began.

The eight-minute phone call with Bush at his ranch in Texas was initiated by Olmert, said Frederick Jones, spokesman for the National Security Council at the White House.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060811/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_mideast_2

Olmert thanks Bush for U.N. resolution
29 minutes ago

CRAWFORD, Texas - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert thanked President Bush on Friday for his work on a resolution to stop violence between Israel and Hezbollah, the White House said. It was the first direct talks between the two leaders since the fighting began.

The eight-minute phone call with Bush at his ranch in Texas was initiated by Olmert, said Frederick Jones, spokesman for the National Security Council at the White House.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060811/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_mideast_2

Yep. Now will Hezbollah agree to it as Israel did?

Yep. Now will Hezbollah agree to it as Israel did?Hezbollah does not have to agree.. so they wont.

Hezbollah position has always been: "We will stop shooting if Israel stops shooting.."
Nothing More Nothing Less.

Will hezbollah give up the 2 captured soldiers? No they wont

Hezbollah does not have to agree.. so they wont.

Hezbollah position has always been: "We will stop shooting if Israel stops shooting.."
Nothing More Nothing Less.

Will hezbollah give up the 2 captured soldiers? No they wont

You do not know anything about the Middle East do you?

You do not know anything about the Middle East do you?LOL.. that is so Corneliu...

LOL.. that is so Corneliu...

Well it is apparent that you do not know that this conflict revolves around Hezbollah and Israel.

So yes, Hezbollah as to agree to a cease-fire. They break it, Israel will not be held responsible for what happens. Lebabon will probably go along with it and thus, Israel will be withdrawing their forces soon.

Well it is apparent that you do not know that this conflict revolves around Hezbollah and Israel.
Yes.. it is apparent (a well know fact).. Its Hezbollah-VS-IDF

So yes, Hezbollah has to agree to a cease-fire. Indeed.. a cease-fire need to be acceptable for both sides.

see? ..I am in complete agreement with you ;)

Yes.. it is apparent (a well know fact).. Its Hezbollah-VS-IDF
Indeed.. a cease-fire need to be acceptable for both sides.

see? ..I am in complete agreement with you ;)

So what do you think of the UN Draft Resolution?

So what do you think of the UN Draft Resolution?obviusly Israel will embrase the resolution.. (happy,happy,happy)

Hezbollah does not have to agree with the Resolution.. so they wont..

The key is the 2 captured soldiers..

Scenario#1 Very likely
Israel will propose "secret" negociations.. for a secret prisoner swap (basically accepting to do what Hezbollah was asking all along).

Israel wants it to be secret to avoid the humiliation of defeat. (Prisoner exchange means defeat for Israel)

Scenario#1.1 unlikely.
Hezbollah accept a secret prisoner echange if the price is rigth. (I have no idea)..

Scenario#1.2 likely
Hezbollah does not accepts secret exchange..(Hezbollah know they won this war.. and if there is a Prisoner echange.. Heezbollah wants it to be public) Israel will threaten with assassinations and other more "defensive" warplane bombings...

scenario#2
Israel stop talking about the 2 soldiers.. the new official line is "they are no longer so important".

So what do you think of the UN Resolution?

So what do you think of the UN Resolution?I think nothing of it..

what do YOU think of the UN Resolution?

I think nothing of it..

what do YOU think of the UN Resolution?

After reading it, which I assume you have not done so, it looks like it gives things to both sides of this conflict.

After reading it, which I assume you have not done so, it looks like it gives things to both sides of this conflict.will it hold water?

will it hold water?

Yep. I think it will unless someone wants to get cute.

will it hold water?
Yep.I dont think so.

I dont think so.

Did you read the resolution?

Did you read the resolution?I am reading it..
It asks Hezbollah to release the Captured Soldiers.. without negociation.

Not going to happen.

I am reading it..
It asks Hezbollah to release the Captured Soldiers.. without negociation.

Not going to happen.

And you know this how?

And you know this how?my sith sense ..

What does your brain tells you?
Your brains says Hezbollah will just surrender the captured soldiers?

what hell is going on mr bush:upyours: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

what hell is going on mr bush:upyours: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

Please, please tell me what drove you to use every gun smilie in your first post. I've been trying for months to figure out why people do that.

France: Happy.
USA: Happy.
Israel: Happy.

Those who recently screamed for 'OMG ceasefire NOW' are not happy?
Ana bakrah Hezbollah.

Let me get this straight. The French will be in charge of the UN force?! The same France that was paralized by rioting teenagers and had more burning cars then working ones cause teenagers didnt feel like working? THAT France?!


(Insert favorite French surrender joke here)

I'm still waiting for it to be explained how the UN can require any sovereign state to do anything at all.

Read chapter 7 of the UN charter. In a nutshell, the signatories to the UN all agree to a body of rules and agree to abide by those rules. Much like you have laws in your countryand police to enforce them, the same is true but on a global scale in the UN. Chapter 7 is the enforcement section of the UN rules and deals with situations that force can be used to allow the UN to enfore the laws agreed apon by the signatories.

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=Resolution+Bush+happy

58 minutes ago
JERUSALEM (Reuters)

Israeli newspapers quoted political sources who said the Jewish state was largely happy with the draft resolution.

"We got what we wanted." the mass-circulation Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper quoted a political source as saying.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060806/ts_nm/mideast_israel_dc_1;_ylt=AqqZNYgnUyJJNqYse_.15hUUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Sources: Yahoo/Reuters/OcceanNEWS©2006

my2cents: If Bush and Israel are so happy.. and "got what they wanted".. I must wonder.. if the other sides feel the same happyness.

Well, since the resolution does not ask Israelis to all move to Montana, the "other sides" will not feel the same happyness.

Let me get this straight. The French will be in charge of the UN force?! The same France that was paralized by rioting teenagers and had more burning cars then working ones cause teenagers didnt feel like working? THAT France?!

And? the US have such riots every time police beat up a black dude.

Hezbollah know they won this war..

???? Cite?

I dont know how you figure Hez won anything. At the end of the day, they have been pushed out of thier base of operations in South Lebenon with a mandate by the UN that they must be disarmed. They will have a UN force, with a mandate of shoot to kill, that will be 700% larger then it was before, and in essence will be its own occupying force. Hez doesnt want that either. They also have to live without good food or water or sanitation or housing as thier economy and infrastructure are destroyed. Yay victory for Hez?!

OHOHOH!!! I just solved the Israel/Lebenon border problem!! Screw the UN, we need to ship all the gang members from the Crips and Bloods from the US to the Israel/Leb border. We wont need mine fields, bunkers, observation posts, walls or fences. Just cans of red and blue spraypaint and a long squiggly line depicting the border and give the Crips one side and the Blood the other. I guarentee you, this will be the most secure border in all of the Middle East!

Let me get this straight. The French will be in charge of the UN force?! The same France that was paralized by rioting teenagers and had more burning cars then working ones cause teenagers didnt feel like working? THAT France?!

Unlike the blacks vs cops wars on the streets of Cincinnati in 2001.

Well, since the resolution does not ask Israelis to all move to Montana.Montana is bautiful peice of Land.. and Creating "Israel" in Montana is not going to ignite 100 wars. (Its not going to get thousands of families killed)

Montana is bautiful peice of Land.. and Creating "Israel" in Montana is not going to ignite 100 wars..

You clearly have never encountered environmental impact statements and zoning boards.

You clearly have never encountered environmental impact statements and zoning boards.LOLerzone!! :D

Unlike the blacks vs cops wars on the streets of Cincinnati in 2001.

Where the white cops pulled out and let them police themselvesand crime increased? After awhile the white cops came back in and crime dropped.

Montana is bautiful peice of Land.. and Creating "Israel" in Montana is not going to ignite 100 wars. (Its not going to get thousands of families killed)

I bet Idaho would immediately invade.

I bet Idaho would immediately invade.Idaho would invade Israel??

Idaho would invade Israel??

If you moved them to Montana.

(Idaho would Invade Israel) If you moved them to Montana.hmm .. What If we created Israel in Rhode Island.. ??

hmm .. What If we created Israel in Rhode Island.. ??

Then Massachuttess would invade :p

hmm .. What If we created Israel in Rhode Island.. ??

RI is not large enough to also create the buffer zone which would surely be needed. OK, on the other hand a "fence" would also do. Israelis like fences and walls.

Hawaii??

Not the Isle of Wight though!

RI is not large enough to also create the buffer zone which would surely be needed. OK, on the other hand a "fence" would also do. Israelis like fences and walls.


Good fences make good neighbors. Especially when the neighbors on the other side of the fence enjoy strapping bombs to themselves and detonating them in heavily populated areas.

This thread is sad.

Good fences make good neighbors. Especially when the neighbors on the other side of the fence enjoy strapping bombs to themselves and detonating them in heavily populated areas.
I do believe that's the smartest thing that's been said here in a long time.

This thread is sad.
I think it is more annoying, although it is sad.

Good fences make good neighbors. Especially when the neighbors on the other side of the fence enjoy strapping bombs to themselves and detonating them in heavily populated areas.

and when the neighbours on the other side routinely bulldoze peoples houses, restrict travel, education, healthcare, 'kidnap' elected officials etc etc

There is no one who is in the right in this entire situation.

and when the neighbours on the other side routinely bulldoze peoples houses, restrict travel, education, healthcare, 'kidnap' elected officials etc etc

There is no one who is in the right in this entire situation.
"routinely bulldoze"? You know that's not true, right? Israel wasn't bulldozing anyone in Lebanon or Gaza before this war, in fact, they withdrew from those areas hoping it would bring peace. The statement you made is the exact reason why Israel should be ruthless and completely eradicate Hezbollah. People like you will ignore anything good Israel does for peace, so there's no point in trying to please you.

When these "people" send their kids in suicide vests to kill Jews, it kind of makes sense to "restrict" travel.

and when the neighbours on the other side routinely bulldoze peoples houses, restrict travel, education, healthcare, 'kidnap' elected officials etc etc

There is no one who is in the right in this entire situation.
we don't restrict their education or healthcare. their goverment supposed to give it to them (and cut the terror subsides).
also, we bulldoze only houses used by terrorists to storage or terror acts. it is part of the war against enemy which use human-shields.
their "elected" officals are terrorists that try and find legitimacy they don't deserve. it is fully right to take them in order to press the terrorists they support for releasement of the kidnapped soldiers.
oh btw, they had travel rights BEFORE they used that rights to sneak suicide-bombers into israel.

we don't restrict their education or healthcare. their goverment supposed to give it to them (and cut the terror subsides).
also, we bulldoze only houses used by terrorists to storage or terror acts. it is part of the war against enemy which use human-shields.
their "elected" officals are terrorists that try and find legitimacy they don't deserve. it is fully right to take them in order to press the terrorists they support for releasement of the kidnapped soldiers.
oh btw, they had travel rights BEFORE they used that rights to sneak suicide-bombers into israel.
Are you in Israel? If you are, my sympathies are with you completely. As an American, I'm extremely proud that my country and my president has the moral fibre to support yours.

:fluffle:

"routinely bulldoze"? You know that's not true, right? Israel wasn't bulldozing anyone in Lebanon or Gaza before this war, in fact, they withdrew from those areas hoping it would bring peace. The statement you made is the exact reason why Israel should be ruthless and completely eradicate Hezbollah. People like you will ignore anything good Israel does for peace, so there's no point in trying to please you.

When these "people" send their kids in suicide vests to kill Jews, it kind of makes sense to "restrict" travel.

What? You think this dispute just happened a month ago????

Its been going on since at the least the 1940's....both sides have committed acts of terror.

It has to stop. On both sides.

Deal with it.

we don't restrict their education or healthcare. their goverment supposed to give it to them (and cut the terror subsides).
also, we bulldoze only houses used by terrorists to storage or terror acts. it is part of the war against enemy which use human-shields.
their "elected" officals are terrorists that try and find legitimacy they don't deserve. it is fully right to take them in order to press the terrorists they support for releasement of the kidnapped soldiers.
oh btw, they had travel rights BEFORE they used that rights to sneak suicide-bombers into israel.

Don't be naive...half of Isreal's political establishment were involved in terror activities in the 40's and 50's and became legit....

Ask yourself why the Palastinians are committing these hinious crimes....what drives a person to do that....and don't fall back on tired excuse of 'its Islams' fault'...that is a empty arguement....

What? You think this dispute just happened a month ago????

Its been going on since at the least the 1940's....both sides have committed acts of terror.

It has to stop. On both sides.

Deal with it.
No, it's been going on since at least the 1920s, read up on your history.

Israel has "committed terror" in the sense that it's not afraid to react strongly when attacked. Just what is it about Jews defending themselves that makes you uncomfortable?

Ok, let's say the IDF pulls out right now. Do you think the rocket attacks will stop? Will Israel get those two captured soldiers back? Will Hezbollah be considered the winner?

The answers are no, no, and yes. One way artificial ceasefires form the UN won't work if the goal is to disarm the terrorists.

If of course, that is the goal.

Are you in Israel? If you are, my sympathies are with you completely. As an American, I'm extremely proud that my country and my president has the moral fibre to support yours.

:fluffle:
I from israel, thanks for the support.

Don't be naive...half of Isreal's political establishment were involved in terror activities in the 40's and 50's and became legit....

Ask yourself why the Palastinians are committing these hinious crimes....what drives a person to do that....and don't fall back on tired excuse of 'its Islams' fault'...that is a empty arguement....
They were involved in the sense that they protected their homes and families from vicious Jew-haters.

What drives a person to do that? What drove the Nazis to kill Jews?

Propaganda and lies. Look at the Arab media. See, the Arab leaders love to blame their incompetence on the joooos, they say to their people "We're just like you, we're arabs, it's those damn jooos that are responsible for this shit."

The people are brainwashed.

Don't be naive...half of Isreal's political establishment were involved in terror activities in the 40's and 50's and became legit....

A minority Jews were members of the Irgun prior to the establishent of israel which carried out bombings etc. They were condemned by the Haganah, the main arm of Jewish defense. When Israel became a state, the Irgun disbanded themselves and integrated into society.


Ask yourself why the Palastinians are committing these hinious crimes....what drives a person to do that....and don't fall back on tired excuse of 'its Islams' fault'...that is a empty arguement....

I'll tell you what drives a person to do what they do. Years and years of indoctrinated hatred and lies. You tell a person long enough that the Jews are descendants of monkeys and pigs, and you tell a person that the reason they live in shit is because of the Jews and not their Arab brothers who put them in this position...chances are they will start believing it eventually.

You mentioned above acts of terror commited by Israel? Can you name ONE??? Just ONE act of terror? I don't think so. Want me to go off on the Arab aggression against the Jews in Israel? Cuz that might need multiple postings.

Oh yea...lets not forget the main voice of palestinian Islam prior to the formation of Israel was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini who was a rabi anti semite and Nazi supporter who spent WWII in Germany with Hitler planning on making gas chambers in Palestine after Rommel would have swept across north Africa.

Don't be naive...half of Isreal's political establishment were involved in terror activities in the 40's and 50's and became legit....

A minority Jews were members of the Irgun prior to the establishent of israel which carried out bombings etc. They were condemned by the Haganah, the main arm of Jewish defense. When Israel became a state, the Irgun disbanded themselves and integrated into society.


Ask yourself why the Palastinians are committing these hinious crimes....what drives a person to do that....and don't fall back on tired excuse of 'its Islams' fault'...that is a empty arguement....

I'll tell you what drives a person to do what they do. Years and years of indoctrinated hatred and lies. You tell a person long enough that the Jews are descendants of monkeys and pigs, and you tell a person that the reason they live in shit is because of the Jews and not their Arab brothers who put them in this position...chances are they will start believing it eventually.

You mentioned above acts of terror commited by Israel? Can you name ONE??? Just ONE act of terror? I don't think so. Want me to go off on the Arab aggression against the Jews in Israel? Cuz that might need multiple postings.

Oh yea...lets not forget the main voice of palestinian Islam prior to the formation of Israel was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini who was a rabi anti semite and Nazi supporter who spent WWII in Germany with Hitler planning on making gas chambers in Palestine after Rommel would have swept across north Africa.

Don't be naive...half of Isreal's political establishment were involved in terror activities in the 40's and 50's and became legit....they aim military forces. their goals was freedom and establishment of jewish state (which they try to achieve diplomatically as well).
how it is comparable to the terrorists who aim civilians and their goals are destruction of israel and expolting (not to say killing) of all the jews?
Ask yourself why the Palastinians are committing these hinious crimes....what drives a person to do that....and don't fall back on tired excuse of 'its Islams' fault'...that is a empty arguement....
islam is just a tool just like israel existance and the "opperesive actions of the west" are nothing but a tool for al-qaida and her like while they recuirt new terrorists. in all these cases they ignore the parts they aren't like because they opposed to their fundementalist ideology.
if you check the history you may see how many times the palestinians enjoyed execcive rights and living conditions, and even real chances for free state. they chose over and over again the way of terror and any time they ended in worse situation.
I for palastinian state on the base of 67 lines, but for many of them it isn't enough. check who you blame.

islam is just a tool just like israel existance and the "opperesive actions of the west" are nothing but a tool for al-qaida and her like while they recuirt new terrorists.You seem to say "we are all tools.."

humm *considers all angles of Green-Israel statement*

I must agree with you..
In a way.. we are all tools.

You seem to say "we are all tools.."

humm *considers all angles of Green-Israel statement*

I must agree with you..
In a way.. we are all tools.
ovcourse we tools. any regime use his own citizens as the power who let him do things. ;)
but this isn't the main point. the important thing is oppressive groups will use any excuse they can to maintain their power. information can prove anything if it provided in biased and controlled way (which may raise some questions about any regime or media in the world).

No, it's been going on since at least the 1920s, read up on your history.

Israel has "committed terror" in the sense that it's not afraid to react strongly when attacked. Just what is it about Jews defending themselves that makes you uncomfortable?

Ok, let's say the IDF pulls out right now. Do you think the rocket attacks will stop? Will Israel get those two captured soldiers back? Will Hezbollah be considered the winner?

The answers are no, no, and yes. One way artificial ceasefires form the UN won't work if the goal is to disarm the terrorists.

If of course, that is the goal.

You do know when I said to at least...that did not preclude time before the 40's yes? Hell I am a Brit and we also need to shoulder some of the responsibility of what happened in the 'Mandate'. As for 'read some history'...jeez what can I say...I've never read a single book in my life :rolleyes:

Mind you I did find it amusing that you lecture me on reading history and then in the next paragraph state '
Israel has "committed terror" in the sense that it's not afraid to react strongly when attacked.' May I suggest that perhaps you need to bone up on that history?

What makes me uncomfortable about both sides 'defending/retaliating' is that it is a vicious circle. That circle needs breaking. Surely you can agree to that?

The question is how.

Any suggestions?

They were involved in the sense that they protected their homes and families from vicious Jew-haters.

What drives a person to do that? What drove the Nazis to kill Jews?

Propaganda and lies. Look at the Arab media. See, the Arab leaders love to blame their incompetence on the joooos, they say to their people "We're just like you, we're arabs, it's those damn jooos that are responsible for this shit."

The people are brainwashed.

They were involved in the sense that they protected their homes and families from vicious Jew-haters.



And how is that different for what the Palastinians are doing?

Regarding the Nazi's I am not going there...the Jews have been persecuted for hundred if not thousands of years. The Nazi's were a culmination of that insane hatred.

Propaganda & Lies....welcome to the media!

What makes me uncomfortable about both sides 'defending/retaliating' is that it is a vicious circle. That circle needs breaking. Surely you can agree to that?

The question is how.

Any suggestions?
the circle already breaked for many times, mostly by israel that stop her actionbs. and than anoth terror attack occured and we were have to defend ourselves.
war is maybe issue for 2 (at least), but peace is for 2 as well. you can't stop violence if only one side want that.

they aim military forces. their goals was freedom and establishment of jewish state (which they try to achieve diplomatically as well).
how it is comparable to the terrorists who aim civilians and their goals are destruction of israel and expolting (not to say killing) of all the jews?

islam is just a tool just like israel existance and the "opperesive actions of the west" are nothing but a tool for al-qaida and her like while they recuirt new terrorists. in all these cases they ignore the parts they aren't like because they opposed to their fundementalist ideology.
if you check the history you may see how many times the palestinians enjoyed execcive rights and living conditions, and even real chances for free state. they chose over and over again the way of terror and any time they ended in worse situation.
I for palastinian state on the base of 67 lines, but for many of them it isn't enough. check who you blame.


I think you are correct in many ways....in 'tools'. However the fact is that much is also on the Isreali side as well when it comes violence...both sides are in this circle that does need something to stop it....

However the first paragraph about killing....well in a 'war' that is what happens with the young fighters...don't tell me that the IDF don't do the same...

Anyway....what do you propose would stop this mayhem?

the circle already breaked for many times, mostly by israel that stop her actionbs. and than anoth terror attack occured and we were have to defend ourselves.
war is maybe issue for 2 (at least), but peace is for 2 as well. you can't stop violence if only one side want that.

That is not entirely correct now is it?

A minority Jews were members of the Irgun prior to the establishent of israel which carried out bombings etc. They were condemned by the Haganah, the main arm of Jewish defense. When Israel became a state, the Irgun disbanded themselves and integrated into society.




I'll tell you what drives a person to do what they do. Years and years of indoctrinated hatred and lies. You tell a person long enough that the Jews are descendants of monkeys and pigs, and you tell a person that the reason they live in shit is because of the Jews and not their Arab brothers who put them in this position...chances are they will start believing it eventually.

You mentioned above acts of terror commited by Israel? Can you name ONE??? Just ONE act of terror? I don't think so. Want me to go off on the Arab aggression against the Jews in Israel? Cuz that might need multiple postings.

Oh yea...lets not forget the main voice of palestinian Islam prior to the formation of Israel was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini who was a rabi anti semite and Nazi supporter who spent WWII in Germany with Hitler planning on making gas chambers in Palestine after Rommel would have swept across north Africa.

Please....we are trying to have a serious discussion here.

They were involved in the sense that they protected their homes and families from vicious Jew-haters.



And how is that different for what the Palastinians are doing?
if I word you correctly you said "the arab leaders protect their homes and families from vicious muslim-haters"?
wow, you are so wrong here I don't know from where to start.
1- israel isn't arab-hater, nor muslim-hater. their terrorists are the ones who want to destroy religious group (hint: the majority group in israel).
2- they aren't protect anyone. their society was in much better condition and much closer to independecy before they attack us. actually, they are the ones who cause harm to their homes and families by using them as human-shield and aim the money donated to the palastinians for terror instead of rebuilding of their territories.

if I word you correctly you said "the arab leaders protect their homes and families from vicious muslim-haters"?
wow, you are so wrong here I don't know from where to start.
1- israel isn't arab-hater, nor muslim-hater. their terrorists are the ones who want to destroy religious group (hint: the majority group in israel).
2- they aren't protect anyone. their society was in much better condition and much closer to independecy before they attack us. actually, they are the ones who cause harm to their homes and families by using them as human-shield and aim the money donated to the palastinians for terror instead of rebuilding of their territories.

No no...Replace the word Jew with Palastinian...sorry I thought it was obvious what I meant....but apologies on my part if I did not make it clear what I meant.

It is not about entirely about religion...it is about rabid nationalism on both sides of which religion is a part.

1 - Not Palastinian haters? Please...you know as well as I that there a large number of Isreali's who hate the Palastinians...and vice versa..

2 - Pawns is a vicious 'game'.

So what so you propose as a solution?

I think you are correct in many ways....in 'tools'. However the fact is that much is also on the Isreali side as well when it comes violence...both sides are in this circle that does need something to stop it....the circle can't be stopped without both sides are willing to it. otherwise, one side will continue to take casualities, while the other stay unharmed.

However the first paragraph about killing....well in a 'war' that is what happens with the young fighters...don't tell me that the IDF don't do the same...I didn't actually understand what you trying to say here.
the only time israel used young fighters (and even they were 15 or more and used as non-militant forces) was in the independence war, and then there was real threat to the live of the israeli society.
Anyway....what do you propose would stop this mayhem?
peace negotiation on the long-term, and war against terror on the short-term. one without the other is useless.
probably, the palastinians should fight the terror first and show their willing for peace.

That is not entirely correct now is it?
enlighten me why it isn't?

Please....we are trying to have a serious discussion here.
then why won't you answer the points he raised?
as I see it, he IS serious.

the circle can't be stopped without both sides are willing to it. otherwise, one side will continue to take casualities, while the other stay unharmed.

I didn't actually understand what you trying to say here.
the only time israel used young fighters (and even they were 15 or more and used as non-militant forces) was in the independence war, and then there was real threat to the live of the israeli society.

peace negotiation on the long-term, and war against terror on the short-term. one without the other is useless.
probably, the palastinians should fight the terror first and show their willing for peace.

1 - completely correct. the question is how is that accomplished?

2 - Young is reletive...the IDF is a conscript force...for me 21 is young...(me being 40). I understand that you must serve at the age of 18 yes? Well to me that is young...

3 - see point 1....once again you are right...but why should the Palastinians be the ones to start? How about both? Maybe use the IDF to help reconstruct parts of the PA or remove the settlers? That would be a great move forward. And when I say the settlers I mean in the contentious areas in say Jerusalem?

And at the same time the Palastinians should work on disbanding the various groups like Hamas of their 'military' wings? After all some of what Hamas does (schools & hospitals) are good for the Palastinians....

enlighten me why it isn't?

well mainly because the circle was never really broken...what started the Intefadah?

"routinely bulldoze"? You know that's not true, right? Israel wasn't bulldozing anyone in Lebanon or Gaza before this war, in fact, they withdrew from those areas hoping it would bring peace.

They were bulldozing there in Gaza and in the West Bank for 40 years. Their lunatic settlers are still there in the West Bank.

"
also, we bulldoze only houses used by terrorists to storage or terror acts. it is part of the war against enemy which use human-shields.

and you tell a person that the reason they live in shit is because of the Jews and not their Arab brothers who put them in this position...chances are they will start believing it eventually.


Bollocks. Whats going on in this familys land that has reduced them to living in caves?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhvE1YkbdPU&mode=related&search=

And how many years was it IDF policy to use human shields?

then why won't you answer the points he raised?
as I see it, he IS serious.

Because he/she has no knowledge...just repeating the same old rubbish that allows the circle to remain.

And if this person was serious I'd expect him/her to come back with that list he mentions....its not like its top secret....

No no...Replace the word Jew with Palastinian...sorry I thought it was obvious what I meant....but apologies on my part if I did not make it clear what I meant. we also aren't palastinians-haters. we had problems only with the terrorists and we do our best while trying and prevent innocent deaths in both sides. my post still standing.

It is not about entirely about religion...it is about rabid nationalism on both sides of which religion is a part. actually the religious-nationalist groups aren't represent even 5% of the jewish popolution according to the last elections results, and the radical part of this group which support violent methods is merely 0.5% of the jewish popolution.
I don't sure about the palastinians but I think large majority of them aren't religious nationalists, but the blindly led by corrupt leaderships and fundementalist terrorists.
radicals may be seen as powerfull and they surely big problem to the peace process, but if you ignore their shouting, you will see they aren't more of few percent from the popolution.

1 - Not Palastinian haters? Please...you know as well as I that there a large number of Isreali's who hate the Palastinians...and vice versa..not larger than the neo-nazis or the muslim-haters in europe.
if you things of that, you will see that the israeli racists (which I oppose), had better reasons for their hate than the european ones. after all this is war of 100 years with some "silent periods" in the middle.

2 - Pawns is a vicious 'game'.maybe for the terrorists. we only want to stay alive.

[quote[So what so you propose as a solution?[/QUOTE]
I think I already answered that.

we also aren't palastinians-haters. we had problems only with the terrorists and we do our best while trying and prevent innocent deaths in both sides. my post still standing.


Then why settlements?

Please....we are trying to have a serious discussion here.


Is that code word for "I can't refute your points..you win" ??? I can't think of any other reason you would choose to not refute what I said to you.

we also aren't palastinians-haters. we had problems only with the terrorists and we do our best while trying and prevent innocent deaths in both sides. my post still standing.

actually the religious-nationalist groups aren't represent even 5% of the jewish popolution according to the last elections results, and the radical part of this group which support violent methods is merely 0.5% of the jewish popolution.
I don't sure about the palastinians but I think large majority of them aren't religious nationalists, but the blindly led by corrupt leaderships and fundementalist terrorists.
radicals may be seen as powerfull and they surely big problem to the peace process, but if you ignore their shouting, you will see they aren't more of few percent from the popolution.

not larger than the neo-nazis or the muslim-haters in europe.
if you things of that, you will see that the israeli racists (which I oppose), had better reasons for their hate than the european ones. after all this is war of 100 years with some "silent periods" in the middle.

maybe for the terrorists. we only want to stay alive.


I think I already answered that.


1 - Not Palastinian haters...well you might not be but you know as well as I do that there is a sizable number who are. And is excluding the other Arab nations who also have a certain level of disparagment towards the Palastinians.

As for preventing innocents...sorry but that is also not entirely true. How many times have areas been leveled because of a action from that area? And usually the terrorist is long gone...

2 - Elections...hmmm ok I understand where you are coming from but let me put it to you that elections are not an pure indicator of public thought. Tactical voting is a all too common occurance.

This getting a bit crazy :)...I agree with you in regards to the leadership of the Palastinians...but that is also mirrored in Isreal. There are pleanty of groups in Isreal that are throughly intolerant of the Palastinians.

Sadly democracy caters to the group with the loudest voice.

3 - Personally I think hate is ultimately self defeating. And I also think/know that the persecution of the Jews in Europe goes back at least a thousand years. A perfect example is what happened to the Jews during the Black Death in Euopre (1300's)...the Jews were blamed and many were killed through an irrational fear.

4 - I think everyone wants to stay alive

5 - Yep you did indeed...

Is that code word for "I can't refute your points..you win" ??? I can't think of any other reason you would choose to not refute what I said to you.

no not really. it means go and find your own 'lists'... :)

I really don't want this to degenerate into a slanging match...we have seen the result of that circle jerk too many times...both here at NS and in the real world...

1 - completely correct. the question is how is that accomplished?take the radicals away from power positions, and maybe some universal balanced involvement will help.
I don't know much about how to achieve it, while the other side show no will.
2 - Young is reletive...the IDF is a conscript force...for me 21 is young...(me being 40). I understand that you must serve at the age of 18 yes? Well to me that is young...and you see no difference between 18 year soldiers (which are mentally mature), and 8 year children used to terror attacks or human-shields?

3 - see point 1....once again you are right...but why should the Palastinians be the ones to start? How about both? Maybe use the IDF to help reconstruct parts of the PA or remove the settlers? That would be a great move forward. And when I say the settlers I mean in the contentious areas in say Jerusalem?they aren't the one to start.
we already pullout from gaza to mention only the last action. before that we proposed them almost anything in the peace negotiation, but they refused. olmert already had plan to pullout from most of the west bank without negotiation.
they didn't show their will at all, and continue with terror. why should we give them east jerusalem and gain nothing in return?
And at the same time the Palastinians should work on disbanding the various groups like Hamas of their 'military' wings? After all some of what Hamas does (schools & hospitals) are good for the Palastinians....they should do it first.
btw, charity is known way to maintain your power and gain support from the populace who agree to ignore your worse acts when you paint yourself as their helper. it used by many regimes in the past.
if they really want to help them they would stop the terror.

well mainly because the circle was never really broken...what started the Intefadah?
it isn't what it is who. Arrafat who refused to the peace proposal some months before search for excuse to start it.
the current idea of the experts is that he think he may used it for better position on the negotiation, but it grown too big and he lost his control on the situation.

Bollocks. Whats going on in this familys land that has reduced them to living in caves?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhvE1YkbdPU&mode=related&search=I not going to justify the wacko settlers. I was against them for many years. still it doesn't give excuse for the terrorists.

And how many years was it IDF policy to use human shields?the thought was that if other palastinian will ask the terrorists politely to get out from the house and inform the other palastinians to stay away from the area it will prevent more casualities, when the other option is gun fight in the middle of urban area. most of the times it worked. it hardly can be defined as human-shields.
anyway, the israeli supreme court ban this act, and for that I am proud of them.

Many people have fallen for the "information" put out by the anti-semitic propaganda organ of Hezbollah ( a terrorist organization) and now view Israel as the agressor and Hezbollah as a legitimate equally moral force in this fight. It is a scary disgrace.

Because he/she has no knowledge...just repeating the same old rubbish that allows the circle to remain.

that old rubbish known as history, and you can't ignore it. after so many tears of both sides kill eachother you can't expect there wouldn't be past-hatred and emotional responses.

anyway, I didn't see that rubbish in is post, but it better we leave it aside.

Doctered photos, misleading tours for journalists, and a general hatred of American foreing policy have led a great number of reasonably smart people to view Hezbollah as a legitimate force ( terrorists???!!!) and Israel as the aggressor.

Then why settlements?
most of the settlement will destroyed as part of the peace process that will disarm the terrorists in the other side. keeping call for immidate destruction for all the settlement is useless act which won't solve anything.

no not really. it means go and find your own 'lists'... :)

I really don't want this to degenerate into a slanging match...we have seen the result of that circle jerk too many times...both here at NS and in the real world...


The list of Arab aggression against the Jews??

Firsty I already mentioned the main leader of Palestinian Islam prior to Israels establishment was a Nazi sympathizer and collaborator.

The riots of the 1920's, specifically the 1929 riot when 100s of Jews were massacred in Hebron and Tzfat.

The Arabs initiated the 1948 war after the British left and they tried to push the Jews into the sea. Israel was happy to accept a Jewish state side by side with ANOTHER Arab state. Subsequently unil the 56 Suez campaign, WHEN Egypt blockaed the Suez and tried to strangle Israels economy, ther ewere numerus attacks by Arabs against Israelis.

Then ofcourse we can talk about 67 when the Arab countries surrounding Israel launched another war of annihilation against Israel.

Then there's he 73 Yom Kippur War where all the surrounding Arab armies invaded Israel again on the holiest day of the year for Jews to try and annihilate them.

then in the late 70's the PLO had made a base out of southern lebanon for terrorist activities and they launched numerous missiles (katyushas to be more specific,...de ja vu anyone?) and attacks against Israel an dIsrael was forced to invade souther lebanon. Once the PLO was rooted out and exiled elsewhere, Hizballah formed itself and launched raids against Israel non stop until now even.

There's the first intifada, the second intifada, the 90's suicide bombings. I could go on forever...

Is that good enough for you?

Oh wait..I can't forget the plethora of airplane hijackings and bombings that were being carried out throughout this entire time, and we cant forget Munich as well.

and Nodinia...how many times must i tell you...the Arabs were attacking Israel wayyyy before '67 and the existence of settlements. The settlemtns are a reminder to the Arab lleaders that time is no longer on their side and that they better put their weapons down soon if they want any land to have a state on.

take the radicals away from power positions, and maybe some universal balanced involvement will help.
I don't know much about how to achieve it, while the other side show no will.
and you see no difference between 18 year soldiers (which are mentally mature), and 8 year children used to terror attacks or human-shields?

they aren't the one to start.
we already pullout from gaza to mention only the last action. before that we proposed them almost anything in the peace negotiation, but they refused. olmert already had plan to pullout from most of the west bank without negotiation.
they didn't show their will at all, and continue with terror. why should we give them east jerusalem and gain nothing in return?
they should do it first.
btw, charity is known way to maintain your power and gain support from the populace who agree to ignore your worse acts when you paint yourself as their helper. it used by many regimes in the past.
if they really want to help them they would stop the terror.

1 - Remove the radicals would be a great point to start from...on both sides. Occupying the area with an international force...I am not sure that would be the right thing to do...to deal with this nightmare for the final time it must be the Isreali's and Palastinians who need to do this. If you have a third 'power' involved I can see the blame game starting again. Both sides need to learn live together as nieghbours and not through force which is what a third force would do. Even UN Peacekeepers would not be possible. Well that's what think....

2 - I have not seen or heard of 8 year old suicide bombers. I have seen children involved in rioting both in Isreal/Palastine...as I have in Northern Ireland. As soon as the TV camera's arrive out they come and start hurling stones...like you said...tools. Human shields...well what are the Jewish settlements but human shields?

3 - The election of Sharon was not viewed in a positive light by the Palastinians...and he was not exactly Palastinian friendly. Sure there was withdrawl...but there was no ceasation of the oppression of the Palastinians...continued bulldozing of houses, more settlements, more violence...more cirlce...

Now with regards to what you said re Olmert...well don't forget what Isreal had done to the PA and to its leaders...arrests. Not a good idea arresting elected officials. It matters not what or who they are...it matters that they were elected. And Isreal refused to deal with these people and instead continued the circle...with the assistance of the nationalist Palastinians.

4 - Why not return East Jerusalem? We both agree (I think) that someone has to start somewhere? I suspect if there was a level of trust between the two sides...and yes I know that this is a stretch...it is feasible...

5 - Charity....well it was either Hama (ect) or nothing...

Many people have fallen for the "information" put out by the anti-semitic propaganda organ of Hezbollah ( a terrorist organization) and now view Israel as the agressor and Hezbollah as a legitimate equally moral force in this fight. It is a scary disgrace.

I don't think anyone in this discussion views Isreal as the sole aggressor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhvE1YkbdPU&mode=related&search=

And how many years was it IDF policy to use human shields?


That video had a whole lot of TALK in it and no video of action or of settlers beating up anyone or chains or anything. Considering the history of "Pallywood" and other propoganda movies..I'm having a real hard time taking this one in.

However, there have been isolated incidents of settler violence, and thats wrong. We must remember however that these settlers are surrounded by hostile neighbors and its understandable that they feel threatened when there are Palestinins walking through their neighborhoods and towns. Throwing rocks is reatrded and shouldn't be done and these certain settlers are stupid and idiotic to do so, but we must also remember, and the video vouched for this, that the IDF does escort Palestsinian children to and from school to protect them.

that old rubbish known as history, and you can't ignore it. after so many tears of both sides kill eachother you can't expect there wouldn't be past-hatred and emotional responses.

anyway, I didn't see that rubbish in is post, but it better we leave it aside.

I am not ignoring it by a long shot...history being one of my hobbies...

after so many tears of both sides kill eachother you can't expect there wouldn't be past-hatred and emotional responses.


Absolutely 10000% correct.

My objection was you saying that there were no terror attacks by the Jews...
look up the King David Hotel...there is one for starters...

But ultimately the causes are, as you say, so far back now that it really does not matter.

All that matters is resolving this situation.

The list of Arab aggression against the Jews??

Firsty I already mentioned the main leader of Palestinian Islam prior to Israels establishment was a Nazi sympathizer and collaborator.

The riots of the 1920's, specifically the 1929 riot when 100s of Jews were massacred in Hebron and Tzfat.

The Arabs initiated the 1948 war after the British left and they tried to push the Jews into the sea. Israel was happy to accept a Jewish state side by side with ANOTHER Arab state. Subsequently unil the 56 Suez campaign, WHEN Egypt blockaed the Suez and tried to strangle Israels economy, ther ewere numerus attacks by Arabs against Israelis.

Then ofcourse we can talk about 67 when the Arab countries surrounding Israel launched another war of annihilation against Israel.

Then there's he 73 Yom Kippur War where all the surrounding Arab armies invaded Israel again on the holiest day of the year for Jews to try and annihilate them.

then in the late 70's the PLO had made a base out of southern lebanon for terrorist activities and they launched numerous missiles (katyushas to be more specific,...de ja vu anyone?) and attacks against Israel an dIsrael was forced to invade souther lebanon. Once the PLO was rooted out and exiled elsewhere, Hizballah formed itself and launched raids against Israel non stop until now even.

There's the first intifada, the second intifada, the 90's suicide bombings. I could go on forever...

Is that good enough for you?

Oh wait..I can't forget the plethora of airplane hijackings and bombings that were being carried out throughout this entire time, and we cant forget Munich as well.

and Nodinia...how many times must i tell you...the Arabs were attacking Israel wayyyy before '67 and the existence of settlements. The settlemtns are a reminder to the Arab lleaders that time is no longer on their side and that they better put their weapons down soon if they want any land to have a state on.

No..no..no....Jewish terror attacks...you said there were none...you said name one...

well as in the post above....King David Hotel.

No..no..no....Jewish terror attacks...you said there were none...you said name one...

well as in the post above....King David Hotel.


I already mentioned the KDH, and I also already said it was perpetrated by the Irgun who was a fringe movement and not part of the mainstream Jewish Defense, the Haganah. It is however documented that the Irgun members called and warned the people at the KDH to leave because they were going to bomb it. That's no excuse, but the bottom line is that the Irgun was independant of the Haganah.

This is in contrast to Hamas and the other terrorists of the Palestinian territories who hail from every faction of Palestinian life. Hamas, a terror group, is the elected governement of the people..al-Aqsa martyrs brigades are part of Fatah. And like I said..there hasn't been an Irgun for 58 years and no terror orchestrated by ISRAEL against anyone.

1 - Not Palastinian haters...well you might not be but you know as well as I do that there is a sizable number who are. And is excluding the other Arab nations who also have a certain level of disparagment towards the Palastinians. as I said they are small group, and I oppose them. even them hardly reason themselves by racial or nationalistic ideas. and in your first comment you make this generalization to all israel.

2 - Elections...hmmm ok I understand where you are coming from but let me put it to you that elections are not an pure indicator of public thought. Tactical voting is a all too common occurance.in israel, elections are almost purely on the security issue, while welfare, education and that staff hardly consider. I think this and the polls are sensible indicator for public thought.

This getting a bit crazy :)...I agree with you in regards to the leadership of the Palastinians...but that is also mirrored in Isreal. There are pleanty of groups in Isreal that are throughly intolerant of the Palastinians. yes, minority groups. really unequal to leadership party in the other side.
did I mention I oppose them?

Sadly democracy caters to the group with the loudest voice. no it cater to the group with the majority in the parlamient. the media search the loudest protesters, because they love sensetions, but mostly they mislead the public.

3 - Personally I think hate is ultimately self defeating. And I also think/know that the persecution of the Jews in Europe goes back at least a thousand years. A perfect example is what happened to the Jews during the Black Death in Euopre (1300's)...the Jews were blamed and many were killed through an irrational fear. the thousands years of hate prove the other point. hate is for ever, and could only be defeated by outer force like the allies in the WW2

4 - I think everyone wants to stay aliveideology may be stronger than will to survive, expecially if you believe in better next world.

5 - Yep you did indeed...good

Also RC, the Palis were offered East Jerusalem as their capital in 2000 by Ehud Barak...along wiht full control over Gaza and 98% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected it.

You keep saying that someone needs to initiate the moves in the right direction, but ur ignoring the times when Israel has done that and has taken painful steps to promote peace...the major example being last summers complete and total disengagement from Gaza and the uprooting of Jews from their homes.

If leaving Gaza completely and giving the Palis full control over it is not a sign of good faith or a step in the "right" direction, then I'm not quite sure what is.

I already mentioned the KDH, and I also already said it was perpetrated by the Irgun who was a fringe movement and not part of the mainstream Jewish Defense, the Haganah. It is however documented that the Irgun members called and warned the people at the KDH to leave because they were going to bomb it. That's no excuse, but the bottom line is that the Irgun was independant of the Haganah.

This is in contrast to Hamas and the other terrorists of the Palestinian territories who hail from every faction of Palestinian life. Hamas, a terror group, is the elected governement of the people..al-Aqsa martyrs brigades are part of Fatah. And like I said..there hasn't been an Irgun for 58 years and no terror orchestrated by ISRAEL against anyone.

Sorry but that is being disengenuious.

Edit - Hit enter to fast...

I do not engage in moral relevetism...

No..no..no....Jewish terror attacks...you said there were none...you said name one...

well as in the post above....King David Hotel.

actully the king david hotel was being used by the british mandate and was not being used by civillians and they gave a warning to the british 1st to evacuate.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html#h

also isreal denounced all the attacks apoligizing arab leaders hailed them as heroic and encourages them

Sorry but that is being disengenuious.

Edit - Hit enter to fast...

I do not engage in moral relevetism...


I said in that post that the phone call warning them was not an excuse. I also said the bombing was wrong. Ur ignoring the fact that the Irgun was a fringe movement and not part of the mmainstream Jewsih defense force, the Haganah. You are failing to see that the Irguns actions are in no way refelctive of any Irsaeli policy. So therefore it does not constitute an act of terrorism on the part of Israel.

EDIT: You also fail to see that the Palestinian terror groups stem from every political group and all activities of Palestsinian life.

I said in that post that the phone call warning them was not an excuse. I also said the bombing was wrong. Ur ignoring the fact that the Irgun was a fringe movement and not part of the mmainstream Jewsih defense force, the Haganah. You are failing to see that the Irguns actions are in no way refelctive of any Irsaeli policy. So therefore it does not constitute an act of terrorism on the part of Israel.

EDIT: You also fail to see that the Palestinian terror groups stem from every political group and all activities of Palestsinian life.

Qibya

Qibya


huh? why are u refusing to debate me?

huh? why are u refusing to debate me?

Sorry GV...I amhaving a total nightmare with my net cnx...I am posting via a GPRS card and the weather is a killer...

Qibya in 1953 was a operation in 1953 that was led by Sharon with the approval of Ben Gurion. Some 60 odd women and children were slaughtered.

I am now going to log off .... I can't post like this...sorry!

1 - Remove the radicals would be a great point to start from...on both sides. only there are noly onew side when the radicals actually had power. you can't remove the radicals in israel as they are minority group (unless by "remove" you mean kill or expolt, which I think you aren't)
Occupying the area with an international force...I am not sure that would be the right thing to do...to deal with this nightmare for the final time it must be the Isreali's and Palastinians who need to do this. If you have a third 'power' involved I can see the blame game starting again. Both sides need to learn live together as nieghbours and not through force which is what a third force would do. Even UN Peacekeepers would not be possible. Well that's what think....too soon to talk about good neighbouring. first we need to get "cold peace" and end for the bloodship. we probably can't achieve that alone, as you know that we will continue to kill eachother until some third force will stop us.
anyway, I didn't talk about millitary involvement, but diplomatic involvement which help with the negotiation.

2 - I have not seen or heard of 8 year old suicide bombers. I have seen children involved in rioting both in Isreal/Palastine...as I have in Northern Ireland. As soon as the TV camera's arrive out they come and start hurling stones...like you said...tools. Human shields...well what are the Jewish settlements but human shields? rioting in israel are more like violent protest, and as I said they are minority. the palastinians riots were childs threw stones on soldiers and gunmen stand behind them and shot the soldiers (human shields). other children were sneak weaponary or used as bombers because they knew we restrict less the women and children.
as for your point for the settlement, it is quite hilarious. this is the exact reason why they said they shouldn't disband the settlements: defend the israeli populace from the terrorists and arab armies, by take the border farther from the center of israel.

3 - The election of Sharon was not viewed in a positive light by the Palastinians...and he was not exactly Palastinian friendly. Sure there was withdrawl...but there was no ceasation of the oppression of the Palastinians...continued bulldozing of houses, more settlements, more violence...more cirlce...
ironical, isn't it? they made him the PM. barak tried to give them almost anything and they give him terror in return. most of the public saw it as the death of the peace process. sharon who until that moment was weak oposition leader with small party, seen as strong leader who know how to deal with terror, and elected in the largest majority ever been in israel.
cause and effect. they brought it on themselves.
Now with regards to what you said re Olmert...well don't forget what Isreal had done to the PA and to its leaders...arrests. Not a good idea arresting elected officials. It matters not what or who they are...it matters that they were elected. And Isreal refused to deal with these people and instead continued the circle...with the assistance of the nationalist Palastinians.[/quote[this elected leaders ARE the nationalist palestinians. they were arrested in response to the kidnapp of Gilad shalit to gaza strip, to encourage the palastinians to act for his releasement.

[quote]4 - Why not return East Jerusalem? We both agree (I think) that someone has to start somewhere? I suspect if there was a level of trust between the two sides...and yes I know that this is a stretch...it is feasible...we already start somewhere- we gave them gaza strip. now it is their turn to fight the terror so we can pass to the next step in a way that eventually may lead them to east jerusalem.

5 - Charity....well it was either Hama (ect) or nothing...
actually no. it was either hammas or independent countrey with good economy and rising living conditions as part of the peace process.

I am not ignoring it by a long shot...history being one of my hobbies...

after so many tears of both sides kill eachother you can't expect there wouldn't be past-hatred and emotional responses.


Absolutely 10000% correct. fine

My objection was you saying that there were no terror attacks by the Jews...
look up the King David Hotel...there is one for starters...

But ultimately the causes are, as you say, so far back now that it really does not matter.

All that matters is resolving this situation.
the king david attack was opposed by the majority of the populace and made by the Irgun which were that time religious nationalists. as I said they were minority and they still minority.
anyway, the israeli leadership of that period take actions against them as the "sezon" when this party leaders were given to the british, and Altalena bombing which sank fully armored ship of them after they refused to disarm.
the palastinians should do the same to their radicals.

Sorry GV...I amhaving a total nightmare with my net cnx...I am posting via a GPRS card and the weather is a killer...

Qibya in 1953 was a operation in 1953 that was led by Sharon with the approval of Ben Gurion. Some 60 odd women and children were slaughtered.

I am now going to log off .... I can't post like this...sorry!
one of israel darkest moment. somehow the leadership take "eye for eye" to seriouslly and decided to fight terror attack on israelis by terror attack on arabs.

anyway, we advanced from that. what about them?

That video had a whole lot of TALK in it and no video of action or of settlers beating up anyone or chains or anything. Considering the history of "Pallywood" and other propoganda movies..I'm having a real hard time taking this one in.

However, there have been isolated incidents of settler violence, and thats wrong. We must remember however that these settlers are surrounded by hostile neighbors and its understandable that they feel threatened when there are Palestinins walking through their neighborhoods and towns. Throwing rocks is reatrded and shouldn't be done and these certain settlers are stupid and idiotic to do so, but we must also remember, and the video vouched for this, that the IDF does escort Palestsinian children to and from school to protect them.

Emmm isn't truer to say that these "settlers" are rabid fundamentalists every bit as bad as their muslim counterparts, and their violence is often aimed at driving locals out?

.

rioting in israel are more like violent protest, and as I said they are minority. the palastinians riots were childs threw stones on soldiers and gunmen stand behind them and shot the soldiers (human shields). other children were sneak weaponary or used as bombers because they knew we restrict less the women and children.
.

But isnt far truer to say that the IDF did and does actually use Palestinians as shields in these situations, either by affixing them to vehicles, or advancing behind them? Or, as recently, placing them in strategic positions in a house they've occupied?

.
as for your point for the settlement, it is quite hilarious. this is the exact reason why they said they shouldn't disband the settlements: defend the israeli populace from the terrorists and arab armies, by take the border farther from the center of israel..

The border between north Korea and soth Korea features towers, minefields, surveiollance equipment etc. Yet Israel puts civillian settlements there and we're supposed to believe that its for defence. What are the invaders going to do? Stop and take a flower cutting from a nice garden? Stop and chat...maybe have a coffee....watch some football in someones house...

Doctered photos, misleading tours for journalists, and a general hatred of American foreing policy have led a great number of reasonably smart people to view Hezbollah as a legitimate force ( terrorists???!!!) and Israel as the aggressor.

Actually Barry, people hated American foriegn policy for a number of years, and it has nothing to do with Hezbollah. Maybe if Ronnie Raygun hadnt been so willing to train Nun-rapers in fort Benning, or maybe if Kissinger was less of a bastard...

Actually Barry, people hated American foriegn policy for a number of years, and it has nothing to do with Hezbollah. Maybe if Ronnie Raygun hadnt been so willing to train Nun-rapers in fort Benning, or maybe if Kissinger was less of a bastard...


Yea, the same Ronald Reagan that defeated Communism...that must kill you.

Yea, the same Ronald Reagan that defeated Communism...that must kill you.


Ron may have been in the chair at the time, but in fact it could have been Bonzo and the same thing would have happened - though possibly without the aforementioned funding of death squads and Nun-raper training.

one of israel darkest moment. somehow the leadership take "eye for eye" to seriouslly and decided to fight terror attack on israelis by terror attack on arabs.

anyway, we advanced from that.

Yes, you did. Now you destroy entire states to get two soldiers back.

Yes, you did. Now you destroy entire states to get two soldiers back.
Once again, the purpose of the current conflict was not to solely get the two soldiers back, but also a response to years and years of Hiz'bo'allah rocket attacks on northern Israel.

or whatever...

Once again, the purpose of the current conflict was not to solely get the two soldiers back, but also a response to years and years of Hiz'bo'allah rocket attacks on northern Israel.

No, its to show the natives what happens when they get restless by a big act of collective punishment.

Once again, the purpose of the current conflict was not to solely get the two soldiers back, but also a response to years and years of Hiz'bo'allah rocket attacks on northern Israel.

Not that Israel abided by the rules either?
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2005/sc8299.doc.htm

It would seem that their violations were more flagrant, more common and more damaging.