NationStates Jolt Archive

US Gov: Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same.
Mon Jul 17, 4:47 PM ET

(AFP) UNITED NATIONS - US Ambassador John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel.()

Asked to comment on the deaths in an Israeli air strike of eight Canadian citizens in southern Lebanon Sunday, he said: "it is a matter of great concern to us ...that these civilian deaths are occurring. It's a tragedy."

"I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts," he added, while defending as "self-defense" Israel's military action, which has had "the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728
OcceanNEWS©2006

my2cents: just call (the other side) terrorists.. and its all good. :rolleyes:

War is terrorism. The essence of war strikes fear within the people of the nations that are at war. People are afraid to die.

Source.

Also, 'defending as self defense'. *snicker*

Both sides are state-sanction terrorists groups.

You fail. There's a difference between deliberately attacking civilians and collateral damage. You can take your "OMGooses!!!one The US is teh evil!!!11ty" elsewhere.

Can we get an L, an I, an N and a K.

*poms poms*

Both sides are state-sanction terrorists groups.
Israel is a world sanctioned terrorist. There is no war, there is just an Israeli attack on Lebanon under the guise of fighting back against Hezbollah.

You fail. There's a difference between deliberately attacking civilians and collateral damage. You can take your "OMGooses!!!one The US is teh evil!!!11ty" elsewhere.

If you bomb an airport, I would say you are deliberately trying to harm innocents.

War is terrorism. The essence of war strikes fear within the people of the nations that are at war. People are afraid to die.true..

and.. both sides civilean victims are equivalent..
I dont buy any of that "we are hollier than thou" shit

Can we get an L, an I, an N and a K.

*poms poms*
ok ok.. :D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728

If you bomb an airport, I would say you are deliberately trying to harm innocents.

An airport is an important strategic target.

Israel is a world sanctioned terrorist.US financed.. US sanctioned

If you bomb an airport, I would say you are deliberately trying to harm innocents.


Yeah, cuz people often crowd around on runways. :rolleyes:

Yeah, cuz people often crown around on runways. :rolleyes:
No, but they do crowd into airports when trying to flee....

Thank you OD for the link.

No, but they do crowd into airports when trying to flee....

Thank you OD for the link.

The runways were hit, that's all. Civilian casualties? Nil.

US Gov: Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same.
Mon Jul 17, 4:47 PM ET

(AFP) UNITED NATIONS - US Ambassador John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel.()

Asked to comment on the deaths in an Israeli air strike of eight Canadian citizens in southern Lebanon Sunday, he said: "it is a matter of great concern to us ...that these civilian deaths are occurring. It's a tragedy."

"I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts," he added, while defending as "self-defense" Israel's military action, which has had "the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728
OcceanNEWS©2006

my2cents: just call (the other side) terrorists.. and its all good.

It makes no difference to the victims... They're dead, be they victims of terrorism or an invasion. The value Americans put on their lifes makes no difference.

Thank you OD for the link.noProblemo.
BTW Blue helmets are true soldiers.. they r just not allowed reasonable ROEs.

My respects to your Dad.

The runways were hit, that's all. Civilian casualties? Nil.
Just sayin'...

Casualties can occur if the ordinance lands a little off. Not beyond the realms of possibility.

(and no, I'm not condoning or defending anything here- just a comment :) )

More examples of the geopolitical welfare that the United States heaps on Israel at the expense of all other nations.

Just sayin'...

Casualties can occur if the ordinance lands a little off. Not beyond the realms of possibility.

(and no, I'm not condoning or defending anything here- just a comment :) )

JDAMs are GPS guided. Little chance of going astray.

JDAMs are GPS guided. Little chance of going astray.
Little. Still possible, however small the chance. It would only take small malfunction to create a horrible mess. :(

noProblemo.
BTW Blue helmets are true soldiers.. they r just not allowed reasonable ROEs.

My respects to your Dad.

Meh. Thanks, he did two tours there in the 80's. Loved the place and lost some friends. Retired now.

What gets me is that Israel starts killing Lebanese soldiers. I mean, aren't these the same soldiers that Olmert has demanded be deployed against Hezbollah in the south?

Isn't this the same army that is ALREADY weaker than Hezbollah? How the hell can we expect them to do anything, let alone stop Hezbollah if they're getting bombed.

I don't understand Israel's actions in this regard. Maybe someone can explain why bombing Lebanese soldiers is striking at Hezbollah?

JDAMs are GPS guided. Little chance of going astray.
GPS is only accurate to within 15ft.

GPS is only accurate to within 15ft.
And from what I have been reading event he most recent JDAM has an accuracy of 10 M for its actualy deployment (US requires a 13 M accuracy)

If you bomb an airport, I would say you are deliberately trying to harm innocents.
Actually no, you aren't, because airports can serve as vital military airstrips as well. And given that the strikes were against the isolated fuel depot and the runways, and not the terminal where people would be, one might also derive from that the fact that the Israelis are not targeting civilians.

The value of lives of the Lebanese and Israelis is the same, but the way by which they died is not. Before Israel bombed Lebanon, they dropped leaflets warning the civilians to get away form there. They try to hit Hezbolah targets and avoid civilian casualties. The terrorists deliberately go after civilians. If Israel really was trying to kill civilians and some of you say, there would be way more civilian deaths.

The value of lives of the Lebanese and Israelis is the same, but the way by which they died is not. Before Israel bombed Lebanon, they dropped leaflets warning the civilians to get away form there. They try to hit Hezbolah targets and avoid civilian casualties. The terrorists deliberately go after civilians. If Israel really was trying to kill civilians and some of you say, there would be way more civilian deaths.
Notice how these kinds of posts only come from people with low post counts or "Israel" somewhere in their name?

What gets me is that Israel starts killing Lebanese soldiers. I mean, aren't these the same soldiers that Olmert has demanded be deployed against Hezbollah in the south?

Isn't this the same army that is ALREADY weaker than Hezbollah? How the hell can we expect them to do anything, let alone stop Hezbollah if they're getting bombed.

I don't understand Israel's actions in this regard. Maybe someone can explain why bombing Lebanese soldiers is striking at Hezbollah?

Israel shows the same lip service when they expect the Palestinians to clamp down on their own extremists, then undermine their ability to do so by various means, such as cutting off their financial resources through blockades and pissing off the locals plus undermining the government's authority by assassination and collateral damage as they please.

People who actively undermine an effort shouldn't bitch about how ineffective things are going.

Actually no, you aren't, because airports can serve as vital military airstrips as well. And given that the strikes were against the isolated fuel depot and the runways, and not the terminal where people would be, one might also derive from that the fact that the Israelis are not targeting civilians.

Whose airforce are they out to get? The lebanese one? Why? I thought they were out to get the Hezbolah.

You see, when someone attacks you, then you can retaliate and it's self defense.

When Hezbollah decided to attack and kidnap Israeli soldiers and Lebanon did jack shit about it. Israel gained the right to stomp a mudhole in them.


Now, I don't agree with their tactics and diplomacy, but I won't argue it's not perfectly within their rights.

Whose airforce are they out to get? The lebanese one? Why? I thought they were out to get the Hezbolah.
Don't you know? Hezbolalh fires shoulder launched missiles from F-18s.

GPS is only accurate to within 15ft.

Sure, and targeting a runway brings you how close to the airport itself? Not even remotely. Nice try.

Before Israel bombed Lebanon, they dropped leaflets warning the civilians to get away form there. dropped leaflets rigth after they Destroyed the ways out (Airport, Main roads, bridges, Ports, etc)
:rolleyes:

You see, when someone attacks you, then you can retaliate and it's self defense.

When Hezbollah decided to attack and kidnap Israeli soldiers and Lebanon did jack shit about it. Israel gained the right to stomp a mudhole in them.


Now, I don't agree with their tactics and diplomacy, but I won't argue it's not perfectly within their rights.

I wonder how many unsolved kidnappings there are in the US? The Israelis aren't exactly acting like they want their soldiers back. It's just an excuse to go on a rampage. And a bad one, at that.

Don't you know? Hezbolalh fires shoulder launched missiles from F-18s.

Ah, of course. Devious little ragheads, aren't they?

now israel is also doing terrorism?

More examples of the geopolitical welfare that the United States heaps on Israel at the expense of all other nations.

Considering America gives billions in aid to Israel, yet wont fund transportation to American refugees leaving the nation thats being bombed by Israel, America has its priorities a little backwards.

dropped leaflets rigth after they Destroyed the ways out (Airport, Main roads, bridges, Ports, etc)
:rolleyes:
Actually, the roads are still being periodically bombed, and a number of civilian cars have been destroyed after the leaflet drops. "Hit the road", they said, haha. :rolleyes:

Actually, the roads are still being periodically bombed, and a number of civilian cars have been destroyed after the leaflet drops. "Hit the road", they said, haha. :rolleyes:

Oh TG. *slaps thigh*

You and that Sahara-dry wit. ;)

When Hezbollah decided to ..kill/kidnap Israeli soldiers..Israel gained the right to stomp a mudhole in them..this beggs a few questions

#1 when you say "gained the rigth to stomp a mudhole in them" .. I assume you include killing civileans too..

this beggs a few questions

#1 when you say "to stomp a mudhole in them" I asume you include killing civileans too.
Of course, because if you arn't Israeli, you are a terrorist.

Whose airforce are they out to get? The lebanese one? Why? I thought they were out to get the Hezbolah.

You fail at both military strategy and understanding the region. Israel is bombing Lebanese AF bases to prevent Syria from stepping in and using them.

You fail at both military strategy and understanding the region. Israel is bombing Lebanese AF bases to prevent Syria from stepping in and using them.
The Beirut International Airport is an airforce base?

this beggs a few questions

#1 when you say "to stomp a mudhole in them" I asume you include killing civileans too.

Oh, "them" means anyone not american, even more so if they're muslims or french. Anything outside of the USA is either "european" or "terrorist", both are part of the "them" communist alliance.

Here's my question.

According to some, hezbollah are purposely targetting civilians with their unguided rockets, but they've managed to kill twice as many soldiers as civilians.

Yet israel, with its percision weaponry, is only bombing terrorists and terrorist-related infrastructure. Though over a hundred civilians are dead.

Seems a bit odd to me, that you can purposely try to attack civilians with unguided rockets, and yet accidentally kill so many more civilians with guided bombs and missiles. Its just hard for me to put this together :P

I'm sure I can get one of our local conservatives or israeli's to put it together for me.

Actually, the roads are still being periodically bombed, and a number of civilian cars have been destroyed after the leaflet drops. "Hit the road", they said, haha. :rolleyes:yup.. one could assume that they are dropping the Leaflets and the bombs simulteneously..

Sure, and targeting a runway brings you how close to the airport itself? Not even remotely. Nice try.
With a 13 M variation (as stated) on top of that 15 foot (and thats US standards for JDAM's not sure what model isreal is using exactly either) you are looking at roughly 5o - 60 foot area of variation on a CORRECTLY functioning wepon

On a target that from what I can tell is not being used by their proclamed "enemy"

You fail at both military strategy and understanding the region. Israel is bombing Lebanese AF bases to prevent Syria from stepping in and using them.

Oh, sorry, I had no idea you were an Israeli general.
It's an international airport, not an Airforce Base.

this beggs a few questions

#1 when you say "gained the rigth to stomp a mudhole in them" .. I assume you include killing civileans too..


Hezbollah are by definition civilians. They are not part of any formal military affiliated with any soveriegn nation.

Isn't semantics fun?

The Beirut International Airport is an airforce base?

Nice try at confusing the two. No, BIA isn't an AF base, but it is a way for additional weaponry to come in for Hezbullah.

Here's my question.

According to some, hezbollah are purposely targetting civilians with their unguided rockets, but they've managed to kill twice as many soldiers as civilians.

Yet israel, with its percision weaponry, is only bombing terrorists and terrorist-related infrastructure. Though over a hundred civilians are dead.

Seems a bit odd to me, that you can purposely try to attack civilians with unguided rockets, and yet accidentally kill so many more civilians with guided bombs and missiles. Its just hard for me to put this together :P
Israel uses some expensive high tech guided missiles with on-board cameras.. for FOX/CNN to show around..

but most of the destruction comes from big-O cheap Missiles/artillery/cluster/carpet-bombing/etc...

Its called made-for-TV PR opperations.. we have seen it in Iraq/Afghanistan too.

US Gov: Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same.
Mon Jul 17, 4:47 PM ET

(AFP) UNITED NATIONS - US Ambassador John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel.()

Asked to comment on the deaths in an Israeli air strike of eight Canadian citizens in southern Lebanon Sunday, he said: "it is a matter of great concern to us ...that these civilian deaths are occurring. It's a tragedy."

"I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts," he added, while defending as "self-defense" Israel's military action, which has had "the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728
OcceanNEWS©2006

my2cents: just call (the other side) terrorists.. and its all good. :rolleyes:

Israel doesnt delibaretly kill civillians. They shoot military or strategic targets and civillians die because they are in close proximity to those targets. Furthermore Israel warns those civillians to leave those areas by dropping leaflets.
On the other hand Hebollah delibaretly fires rockets into civillian areas. The results (death of civillians) are same however there is a distinction between Israelis and muslims...

JDAMs are GPS guided. Little chance of going astray.
BAHAHAHAHAHAH. Yep, that's why there are more civilian casualties then military ones in this war.

Nice try at confusing the two. No, BIA isn't an AF base, but it is a way for additional weaponry to come in for Hezbullah.
The BIA was the first thing bombed, nice try making up crap about military support though and airforce bases.

The results (death of civillians) are same
No they arn't. Since the start of the invasion, Israel has killed 10x as many people as Hezbollah rockets.

Nice try at confusing the two. No, BIA isn't an AF base, but it is a way for additional weaponry to come in for Hezbullah.

Oh, I thought it was a way for Syria to step in. That's some fast googling :rolleyes: Admit it, you just like to watch stuff blow up on tv.

Israel doesnt delibaretly kills civillians. They shoot military or strategic targets and civillians die because they are in close proximity to those target. Furthermore Israel warns those civillians to leave those areas by dropping leaflets.
On the other hand Hebollah delibaretly fires rockets into civillian areas. The results (death of civillians) are same however there is a distinction between Israelis and muslims...
Lol and yet isreal has killed more civilians (proportionaltly as well) then Hezbullah with their dumb rockets

Someone is either picking the wrong targets or does not know how to use their weapons

BAHAHAHAHAHAH. Yep, that's why there are more civilian casualties then military ones in this war.

Because civilian neighbourhoods have been targetted. Funny as hell, huh? :rolleyes:

Because civilian neighbourhoods have been targetted. Funny as hell, huh? :rolleyes:
Clever! Target the neighborhoods and suddenly they become fair game. About as amusing as the firebombing of dresden.

This is different from randomly lobbing rockets into civilian areas how?

Lol and yet isreal has killed more civilians (proportionaltly as well) then Hezbullah with their dumb rockets

Someone is either picking the wrong targets or does not know how to use their weapons

In fairness, the volleys of rockets from Hezb'allah aren't guided and are quite random at hitting targets in urban areas.

If they were properly guided then I imagine the Israeli civilian death toll would be significantly higher. Thankfully, they're not.

dp

Oh, I thought it was a way for Syria to step in. That's some fast googling :rolleyes: Admit it, you just like to watch stuff blow up on tv.

You fail at any kind of intelligence. Go chat with a mushroom or something.

Israel's "targeted" attacks have killed so far 10 times as many civilians as soldiers. Nice going. Either they're targeting civilians or your magical weapontry doesn't work nearly as well as you talk it up to be.

You fail. There's a difference between deliberately attacking civilians and collateral damage. You can take your "OMGooses!!!one The US is teh evil!!!11ty" elsewhere.
Heh! Trying to explain that sort of thing on here is like trying to teach quantum physics to 3 year olds.

Strange how the "collateral damage" on one side exceeds the "deliberately killed civilians" of the other, by a factor of 10. Proportionality, heh.

Heh! Trying to explain that sort of thing on here is like trying to teach quantum physics to 3 year olds.
Or to explain to armchair, Israeli-lapdog hawks how heavy explosives that cause extreme amounts of collateral damage being fired into a neighborhood are likely to kill dozens of people, most of which arn't your target.

You fail at any kind of intelligence. Go chat with a mushroom or something.

Wow, great logic.
You've just explained the logic behind blowing up an airport in one sentence.

You can call me stupid all you want, but the numbers are on my side, yank.

Actually it is because HEzbollah hides among civilians.

Israel has flown almost 2500 sorties. Less than 10% of these bombing missions results in a civilian death.

Most of the sorties involve multiple multiple targets. Usually, the civilian deaths come in bunches of 8 killed by a single bomb. If Israel were targetting civilians, then each sortie should've resulted in a minimum of 50 killed and most likely more. By that calculation, a minimum of 125,000 civilians should've been killed by now. Yet despite these facts showing Israel is not trying to wipe out the civilian population. The anti-semitic numbskulls will still try to spin lies.

Hezbollah are by definition civilians. Hezbollah? they are a Guerrilla group.

Other names used around:

Para-Militares,
Resistance,
Terrorits,
Freedom Figthers,
Insurgents,
Revolutionaries,
Civ.Reserve,
Militia,
Founding Fathers,
etc,etc,etc.

they are armed and figthting, cannot be considered Civileans.

Israel's "targeted" attacks have killed so far 10 times as many civilians as soldiers. Nice going. Either they're targeting civilians or your magical weapontry doesn't work nearly as well as you talk it up to be.
That's not what I'm saying. With the several hundred Kaytusha rockets being fired, had they been guided, the civilian death toll would be a lot higher.

It doesn't mean Hezb'allah aren't trying- just means they aren't succeeding. They can both attack the IDF in Lebanon and civilians in Israel-proper.

I don't understand Israel's actions in this regard. Maybe someone can explain why bombing Lebanese soldiers is striking at Hezbollah?
Because this isn’t about striking at Hezbollah. That’s just the pretext. This is about dragging the US into a war with Iran. Israel worries that the US will not be staying in Iraq in large numbers for much longer. They need Iran crippled now if they are to continue their unopposed reign of terror, while the chance for war precipitating US casualties is still high .

Most of the sorties involve multiple multiple targets. Usually, the civilian deaths come in bunches of 8 killed by a single bomb. If Israel were targetting civilians, then each sortie should've resulted in a minimum of 50 killed and most likely more. By that calculation, a minimum of 125,000 civilians should've been killed by now. Yet despite these facts showing Israel is not trying to wipe out the civilian population. The anti-semitic numbskulls will still try to spin lies.
Oh look ma, bullshit. We oppose a heavy-handed, ill-supported bombing campaign against Lebanon and its populace for attacks on military targets by a guerilla group so we must be anti-semitic.
Go take a long walk off a short pier. Wait, you know what? Forget the pier altogether.

Strange how the "collateral damage" on one side exceeds the "deliberately killed civilians" of the other, by a factor of 10. Proportionality, heh.
In all honesty, the numbers are different for a number of reasons. For one, Norhtern Israel has a network of bomb shelters. Israel has better trained first responders and doctors. That is often the difference between life and death. Many Israelis who are critically wounded end up surviving while this is not true for the Lebanese.

You also are forgetting that the terrorists seek shelter in civilian areas.

Or to explain to armchair, Israeli-lapdog hawks how heavy explosives that cause extreme amounts of collateral damage being fired into a neighborhood are likely to kill dozens of people, most of which arn't your target.
Awww! Now dat ain't nice. Tsk! :p

You also are forgetting that the terrorists seek shelter in civilian areas.
Entirely irrelevant considering your argument is that Hezbollah is firing rockets into civilian areas.

Heh! Trying to explain that sort of thing on here is like trying to teach quantum physics to 3 year olds.

The only way to make this metaphor make any sense is to assume the 3 year old knows more about quantum physics than you do.

Israel has flown almost 2500 sorties...I say Israel does not have a clue where the Hezbollah operatives are hidding..

So they are using Collective punishement.. again.. and again..

Actually it is because HEzbollah hides among civilians.

Israel has flown almost 2500 sorties. Less than 10% of these bombing missions results in a civilian death.

Most of the sorties involve multiple multiple targets. Usually, the civilian deaths come in bunches of 8 killed by a single bomb. If Israel were targetting civilians, then each sortie should've resulted in a minimum of 50 killed and most likely more. By that calculation, a minimum of 125,000 civilians should've been killed by now. Yet despite these facts showing Israel is not trying to wipe out the civilian population. The anti-semitic numbskulls will still try to spin lies.
"Dissimulation" is a much nicer word. :D

Oh look ma, bullshit. We oppose a heavy-handed, ill-supported bombing campaign against Lebanon and its populace for attacks on military targets by a guerilla group so we must be anti-semitic.
Go take a long walk off a short pier. Wait, you know what? Forget the pier altogether.
You must really be illiterate or not realize how much damage modern weapons can do. Israel is not bombing the populace. You must really be dumb to think that there would only be 200 dead with Israel targetting the populace after 2500 bombing missions. You are really just full of shit. The number dead may seem high, but is actually quite low considering the size of the bombing campaign. Israel should actually be comended for the low numbers. If you knew jack shit about air campaigns, you would know how low thsese numbers actually are.

The only way to make this metaphor make any sense is to assume the 3 year old knows more about quantum physics than you do.
Hauling out your flame-thrower a bit early in this thread, aren't ya? Tsk! :p

Wow, great logic.
You've just explained the logic behind blowing up an airport in one sentence.

You can call me stupid all you want, but the numbers are on my side, yank.
Numbers mean nothing. Oh wait...there is the number 1559. You know, the UN resolution? The one that said the Lebanese government would disarm Hezbullah? Oh yeah, must've slipped your mind.

Yet despite these facts showing Israel is not trying to wipe out the civilian population. The anti-semitic numbskulls will still try to spin lies.
It's not trying to wipe it out, what it is, is indifferent. And I'm afraid painting dissent as anti-semitic stopped working years ago. The debate evolved.

I say Israel does not have a clue where the Hezbollah operatives are hidding..

So they are using Collective punishement.. again.. and again..
It isn't collective punishment. The targets struck are all strategic targets being struck to interrupt Hezbollah's logistics. You know nothing about military operations if you claim otherwise.

It's not trying to wipe it out, what it is, is indifferent. And I'm afraid painting dissent as anti-semitic stopped working years ago. The debate evolved.
What choice do they have when their targets hide among civilians? Believe me, the pilots would rather not kill civilians, but they have to hit their targets. It is their target's fault if they hide among civilians.

Hauling out your flame-thrower a bit early in this thread, aren't ya? Tsk! :p

Sorry, I had no intention of hurting your feelings. :rolleyes:

Numbers mean nothing. Oh wait...there is the number 1559. You know, the UN resolution? The one that said the Lebanese government would disarm Hezbullah? Oh yeah, must've slipped your mind.
I'm sorry, but bringing UN resolutions in to defend the actions of Israel is laughable and highly ironic.

Entirely irrelevant considering your argument is that Hezbollah is firing rockets into civilian areas.
There is a difference between TARGETTING CIVILIANS and targetting terrorists who intentionally try to use civilians as human shields. You really need to grow a new brain.

You must really be illiterate or not realize how much damage modern weapons can do. Israel is not bombing the populace. You must really be dumb to think that there would only be 200 dead with Israel targetting the populace after 2500 bombing missions. You are really just full of shit. The number dead may seem high, but is actually quite low considering the size of the bombing campaign. Israel should actually be comended for the low numbers. If you knew jack shit about air campaigns, you would know how low thsese numbers actually are.on the other hand..

Hezbollah is "raining" missiles on Israel towns.. yet they only managed 20-30 kills..

IDF have you ever heard of underground shelters?
Do you really think Isreal alone has that breath-taking technology (shelters)
:rolleyes:

Sorry, I had no intention of hurting your feelings. :rolleyes:
But ... you did! You did hurted my widdle f-f-f-fewings! [ cries ]

Lol and yet isreal has killed more civilians (proportionaltly as well) then Hezbullah with their dumb rockets

Someone is either picking the wrong targets or does not know how to use their weapons

If Hezbollah had the same capabilities as Israeli army, I'm sure their killings would exceed killings by Israelies thousands of times...

on the other hand..

Hezbollah is "raining" missiles on Isreal towns.. yet they only managed 20-30 kills..

IDF have you ever heard of underground shelters?
Do you think only Isreal has that breath-taking technology (basements) :rolleyes:
They do have underground shelters. I posted above why Israel's casualties are lower. It is a mix of shelters and first reponders. Beirut doesn't have these shelters.

Hezbollah is hiding in dense city populations. Most bombing campaigns of 2500 sorties would result in far higher casualties. We are seeing that it is probably 1% of the raids actually resulting in civilian casualties. (considering about 8 are killed each time)

You must really be illiterate or not realize how much damage modern weapons can do.
I do and that is the point itself.

Israel is not bombing the populace.
Beirut International Airport.

The number dead may seem high, but is actually quite low considering the size of the bombing campaign.
If it is that large of a bombing campaign, the very idea that Israel is attacking a guerilla group and not the country itself is ludicrous.

It isn't collective punishment. The targets struck are all strategic targets being struck to interrupt Hezbollah's logistics.
Lebanon military bases? The Beirut International Airport?
Hebollah was already more powerful than the Lebanese military, how is attacking them going to convince or give the ability to the Lebanon military to fight Hezbollah? It doesn't.

I am convinced that it is Israel that is working with terrorists, unless they are somehow as culturually ignorant and stupid as Americans are.

There is a difference between TARGETTING CIVILIANS and targetting terrorists...that is the whole point of this thread.. ( you are rigth on topic) ;)
You seem to agree with the US gov.

Numbers mean nothing. Oh wait...there is the number 1559. You know, the UN resolution? The one that said the Lebanese government would disarm Hezbullah? Oh yeah, must've slipped your mind.

I was speaking of IQ.

Anyway... Israel has been the subject of 138 resolutions, and they've gone against most of them.
And Bush asked the UN to "prove it's relevance" in Iraq :rolleyes:

I do and that is the point itself.
If you did, then you would know that the number killed is quite low.

Beirut International Airport.

No one was killed there. They bombed runways, which are quite a distance away from the terminal. It's obvious you didn't bother to read my post on bombing strategically important targets of Hezbollah's logistical network. The airports and highways are a part of that.

If it is that large of a bombing campaign, the very idea that Israel is attacking a guerilla group and not the country itself is ludicrous.

They are attacking a terrorist group that is a large part of the country's government. Lebanon didn't comply with the UN Resolutions to disarm Hezbollah. It is their fault.

that is the whole point of this thread.. ( you are rigth on topic) ;)
You seem to agree with the US gov.
The US government is right. Intent is very important. It isn't a crime if you don't intend to cause the harm. Any criminal court would agree.

I do and that is the point itself.


Beirut International Airport.


If it is that large of a bombing campaign, the very idea that Israel is attacking a guerilla group and not the country itself is ludicrous.


Lebanon military bases? The Beirut International Airport?

WTF? Isnt Hezbollah part of Lebaneese goverment? Hasnt Hezbollah got supporters in the Lebaneese army? It's very natural that Israelis would shoot strategic targets. And International Airport. I'm sure Iran would smuggle another party of some of their rockets via airplane or maybe the hiding Hezbollah leader would have fleed by now if it wasnt destroyed.

What choice do they have when their targets hide among civilians? they have the choice not to Bomb.
Israel had the choice not to Bomb.

they always have the choice not to Bomb.
Israel made the choice..

so far Israel Bombs have killed 2 Hezbollah operatives.. and ~200 Civileans.

No one was killed there.
Irrelevant

They are attacking a terrorist group that is a large part of the country's government. Lebanon didn't comply with the UN Resolutions to disarm Hezbollah. It is their fault.
Wrong.

WTF? Isnt Hezbollah part of Lebaneese goverment?
It isn't the Lebanese government.
Why am I even replying to you? You are another "pro-Israel or bust" or bust puppet.
I will just call all of your simitophiles, it will apply alot better than anti-semitic does to people who oppose the ridiculous Israeli tactics because you support any move by Israel.

And so the world rolls closer to Meir Kahane's wet dream of a Middle East ruled by Hebrew Apartheid.

It isn't the Lebanese government.
Why am I even replying to you? You are another "pro-Israel or bust" or bust puppet.
I will just call all of your simitophiles, it will apply alot better than anti-semitic does to people who oppose the ridiculous Israeli tactics because you support any move by Israel.


They seem to think they are part of the Lebanese government .

Thursday, 4 April, 2002, 11:04 GMT 12:04 UK
Who are Hezbollah?


Hezbollah guerrillas forced Israel to withdraw from Lebanon



By Kathryn Westcott
BBC News Online



Hezbollah - or Party of God - emerged in Lebanon in the early 1980s and became the region's leading radical Islamic movement, determined to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon.

In May 2000 - due partly to the success of the party's military arm - one of its main aims was achieved. Israel's battered and bruised army was forced to end its two-decade occupation of the south.

Hezbollah now serves as an inspiration to Palestinian factions fighting to liberate occupied territory.


Hezbollah has embraced the Palestinian cause
The party, in turn, has embraced the Palestinian cause and has said publicly that it is ready to open a second front against Israel in support of the intifada.

Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.

Inspired by the success of the Iranian Revolution, the party also dreamt of transforming Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. Although this idea was abandoned and the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament.

Terror

Hezbollah's political rhetoric has centred on calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Its definition of Israeli occupation has also encompassed the idea that the whole of Palestine is occupied Muslim land and it has argued that Israel has no right to exist.


Hezbollah's spiritual head Sheikh Fadlallah is close to Iran

The party was long supported by Iran, which provided it with arms and money.

In its early days, Hezbollah was close to a contingent of some 2000 Iranian Revolutionary guards, based in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, which had been sent to Lebanon in 1982 to aid the resistance against Israel.

As Hezbollah escalated its guerrilla attacks on Israeli targets in southern Lebanon, its military aid from Iran increased.

The movement also adopted the tactic of taking Western hostages, through a number of freelance hostage taking cells: The Revolutionary Justice Organisation and the Organisation of the Oppressed Earth, which seized Terry Waite.

For many years, Hezbollah was synonymous with terror, suicide bombings and kidnappings. In 1983, militants who went on to join Hezbollah ranks carried out a suicide bombing attack that killed 241 US marines in Beirut.

Passionate and demanding

The party has operated with neighbouring Syria's blessing - with the guerrilla war against being a card for Damascus to play in its own confrontation with Israel over the occupation of the Golan Heights.

Over the two decades, Hezbollah evolved into a movement with thousands of trained guerrillas, members of parliament and a dynamic welfare programme benefiting thousands of Lebanese.


Hezbollah proved to be a formidable fighting force
It was passionate, demanding of its members and devoted to furthering an Islamic way of life.

In the early days, its leaders imposed strict codes of Islamic behaviour on towns and villages in the south - a move that was not universally popular with the region's citizens.

But, despite the early history of coercion, the party emphasises that its Islamic vision should not be interpreted as an intention to impose an Islamic society on the Lebanese.

Political moves

In recent years, Hezbollah has won considerable backing within Lebanon. Its social services programme was popular with the Shia community.

The group's successful hit-and-run guerrilla war on Israel's much-vaunted army assured it some support and a lot or respect from other religious communities.

While, the US listed the group as a terrorist organisation, the government in Beirut declared it a national resistance movement.

Its popularity with the Shia community - which makes up almost 40% of Lebanon's three million people - was confirmed in the 1992 parliamentary elections when Hezbollah led a successful campaign and won eight seats in parliament.

But it is not popular with all of Lebanon's different communities - the Christians, for example, have accuse it of trying to destabilise the country.

BTW they are terrorist as well as politicions .

From: Country Reports on Terrorism, 2004. United States Department of State, April 2005.

Comments on the content of the material should be sent to the U.S. Department of State

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Names
Party of God
Islamic Jihad
Islamic Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine

Description
Formed in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, this Lebanon-based radical Shia group takes its ideological inspiration from the Iranian revolution and the teachings of the late Ayatollah Khomeini. The Majlis al-Shura, or Consultative Council, is the group’s highest governing body and is led by Secretary General Hasan Nasrallah. Hizballah is dedicated to liberating Jerusalem and eliminating Israel, and has formally advocated ultimate establishment of Islamic rule in Lebanon. Nonetheless, Hizballah has actively participated in Lebanon’s political system since 1992. Hizballah is closely allied with, and often directed by, Iran but has the capability and willingness to act independently. Though Hizballah does not share the Syrian regime’s secular orientation, the group has been a strong ally in helping Syria advance its political objectives in the region.

Activities
Known or suspected to have been involved in numerous anti-US and anti-Israeli terrorist attacks, including the suicide truck bombings of the US Embassy and US Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 and the US Embassy annex in Beirut in 1984. Three members of Hizballah, ‘Imad Mughniyah, Hasan Izz-al-Din, and Ali Atwa, are on the FBI’s list of 22 Most Wanted Terrorists for the 1985 hijacking of TWA Flight 847 during which a US Navy diver was murdered. Elements of the group were responsible for the kidnapping and detention of Americans and other Westerners in Lebanon in the 1980s. Hizballah also attacked the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 1992 and the Israeli cultural center in Buenos Aires in 1994. In 2000, Hizballah operatives captured three Israeli soldiers in the Shab’a Farms and kidnapped an Israeli noncombatant.

Hizballah also provides guidance and financial and operational support for Palestinian extremist groups engaged in terrorist operations in Israel and the occupied territories.

In 2004, Hizballah launched an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that left Lebanese airspace and flew over the Israeli town of Nahariya before crashing into Lebanese territorial waters. Ten days prior to the event, the Hizballah Secretary General said Hizballah would come up with new measures to counter Israeli Air Force violations of Lebanese airspace. Hizballah also continued launching small scale attacks across the Israeli border, resulting in the deaths of several Israeli soldiers. In March 2004, Hizballah and HAMAS signed an agreement to increase joint efforts to perpetrate attacks against Israel. In late 2004, Hizballah’s al-Manar television station, based in Beirut with an estimated ten million viewers worldwide, was prohibited from broadcasting in France. Al-Manar was placed on the Terrorist Exclusion List (TEL) in the United States, which led to its removal from the program offerings of its main cable service provider, and made it more difficult for al-Manar associates and affiliates to operate in the United States.

Strength
Several thousand supporters and a few hundred terrorist operatives.

Location/Area of Operation
Operates in the southern suburbs of Beirut, the Bekaa Valley, and southern Lebanon. Has established cells in Europe, Africa, South America, North America, and Asia.

External Aid
Receives financial, training, weapons, explosives, political, diplomatic, and organizational aid from Iran, and diplomatic, political, and logistical support from Syria. Hizballah also receives funding from charitable donations and business interests.

BTW they are terrorist as well as politicions .

But unless they're called Sinn Fein, we gun them down like the dirty brownskins they are, right?

:rolleyes:

BTW they are terrorist as well as politicions .
Which is why some places separate the political wing from the terrorist wing.

Same as ETA, same as IRA/UVF/UDA/PUP et al.

This is the best one yet. A sample and a link ...enjoy .

Hizballah's methods of controlling terrorist organizations in the territories are similar to those characteristic of the involvement of the command centers of Palestinian terrorist organizations abroad (Hamas and Islamic Jihad) in the actions of their organizations inside the country. Striking in this framework are the instructions to carry out mass murder attacks within Israeli territory, mediation between terrorists at the different centers of action, the large-scale transfer of money, and finally, coordination of the effort to upgrade the terrorist capabilities of the organizations.

The most significant remaining armed group in Lebanon is Hizballah, which the Government refers to, not as a Lebanese militia, but as a “national resistance group”. Hizballah seeks to defend Lebanon from Israel and the removal of Israeli forces from Lebanese soil, namely, the Shab’a farms. Lebanon maintains that the Shab’a farms are Lebanese territory, not Syrian. In the Secretary-General’s report of 16 June 2000, however, he confirmed that Israel has fulfilled the requirements of Security Council resolutions 425 and 426 to “withdraw its forces from all Lebanese territory”. The Council endorsed that conclusion on 18 June 2000 in a presidential statement. Notwithstanding the Lebanese Government’s position that the Shab’a farms area lies within Lebanon, the Government has confirmed that it would respect the Blue Line as identified by the United Nations. The Council has called on Lebanon to respect fully its line.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 (02 September 2004) called for the "disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias". The Government of Lebanon is responsible for the disbanding and disarming of the militias, including Hizballah, and preventing the flow of armaments and other military equipment to the militias, including Hizballah, from Syria, Iran, and other external sources. Lebanon basically rejected Resolution 1559, and by early 2005 this presented the risk of Israeli retaliation against vital Lebanese infrastructure to force action to disarm Hizballah.

A heavy exchange of fire between Hizbollah and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) across the Blue Line took place on 21 November 2005, surpassing any activity level since Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon in May 2000. The exchange began with heavy Hizbollah mortar and rocket fire from a number of locations against several IDF positions close to the Blue Line in the eastern sector of the UNIFIL area of operation. Simultaneously, a large group of Hizbollah fighters infiltrated Ghajar village and launched an assault on the Mayor’s office and the IDF position inside the village, south of the Blue Line, which was vacant at the time. The ensuing Israeli retaliation was heavy and included aerial bombing. The exchange of fire subsequently spread all along the Blue Line and lasted for over nine hours. Around 800 artillery, tank and mortar rounds and rockets were exchanged. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) dropped at least 30 aerial bombs.

In a written report to the Security Council 18 April 2006, Secretary-General Kofi Annan called on Syria and Iran to stop interfering in Lebanon. The report, which was written by the secretary-general's special envoy Terje Roed-Larsen, said that Hizballah, the Lebanese militant group, "maintains close ties, with frequent contacts and regular communication" with Syria and Iran.

Resolution 1680 (2006), adopted by the Security Council on 17 May 2006, welcomed the decision of the Lebanese national dialogue to disarm Palestinian militias outside refugee camps within six months, supports its implementation and calls for further efforts to disband and disarm all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias and to restore fully the Lebanese Government's control over all Lebanese territory.

On July 12, 2006 members of Hizballah infiltrated the Lebanese-Israeli border near Shtula, an Israeli farming village, and claimed responsibility for an ambush conducted on two Israeli Army Hummvees. The attack resulted in the capture of two Israeli soldiers and the deaths of three others. Five more Israeli soldiers were killed in the ensuing pursuit of Hizballah members into Lebanese territory. The combined capture of two soldiers and the deaths of 8 others; was considered the worst loss for Israeli military forces in more than four years. Hizballah also claimed responsibility for two separate Katyusha rocket attacks on Israeli towns resulting in the death of 1 civilian and the injury of 25 others.

The kidnapping of Israeli troops by Hizballah came in the wake of a similar incident less than a month before, on June 25th, 2006, when Palestinian militants forcibly captured an Israeli soldier to use as leverage for bargaining with the Israeli government. The last time Hizballah carried out a similar operation against Israel was in October of 2000, when 3 Israeli soldiers were abducted by the Lebanese militants. All three victims died either by execution or wounds sustained during their capture. Their bodies were returned to Israel in exchange for the release of several Arab prisoners.

The 12 July 2006 attack resulted in immediate retaliation by the Israeli military, which responded to the hostilities against their troops and citizens by bombing roads, bridges, and power plants inside Lebanon. The specific targeting of al-Manar, the Hizballah controlled television station, and the Lebanese international airport as well as the blockading of Lebanon’s sea ports was an attempt to force the return of the captured Israeli troops and place greater pressure on Hizballah. These retaliatory actions by Israel resulted in the deaths of dozens of Lebanese civilians and threats of further rocket attacks by Hizballah.

Strength

The State Department’s 1993 report on international terrorism lists Hizbollah’s “strength” at several thousand. Hizbollah sources assert that the organization has about 5,000-10,000 fighters. Other sources report that Hizbollah’s militia consists of a core of about 300-400 fighters, which can be expanded to up to 3,000 within several hours if a battle with Israel develops. These reserves presumably are called in from Hizbollah strongholds in Lebanon, including the Bekaa Valley and Beirut’s southern suburbs. The number of members involved in combat activity in southern Lebanon is under 1,000. But it has many activists and moral supporters. After the Israeli withdrawal Hizballah reduced the number of full time fighters to about 500, though estimates range from 300 to 1,200. There are also several thousand reserves, but these lack training or experience. Hizbollah’s militia is a light force, equipped with small arms, such as automatic rifles, mortars, rocket-propelled grenades, and Katyusha rockets, which it occasionally has fired on towns in northern Israel. Hizbollah forces are shown on television conducting military parades in Beirut, which often include tanks and armored personnel carriers that may have been captured from the Lebanese army or purchased from Palestinian guerrillas or other sources.

Location/Area of Operation



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah.htm


Poor poor POOR..Lebanon...enough of this bullshit..they are reaping the result of their own inaction and cowardly handling of their own country .

They seem to think they are part of the Lebanese government .
Part is not the government itself. Nice try.

But unless they're called Sinn Fein, we gun them down like the dirty brownskins they are, right?

:rolleyes:

Just the ones firing missiles and rockets into cities and towns . And doing their usual terrorist routine.

Kill them... blow them up... hang them... drown them.... set them on fire ..just be rid of them .

BTW they are terrorist as well as politicions .Interesante:

I just checked Wikipedia..

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
It does say that they are separate wings.

and.. the spanish version do highligth the fact that the military wing of Hezbollah is considered a "legitimate Resistance Movement" in that continent.

Part is not the government itself. Nice try.

No pants..What part of Lebenon being responsible for the operations of an armed militia operating inside its borders and with a political wing that is part of the government of Lebenon do you not understand ?

What part of the agreement that Lebenon made to be responsible for disarming these idiots did you MISS ?


Lebenon is reaping the fruits of their own labors ..or lack of them .

You want peace ?

Gert rid of hezbolla...instant peace..until hamas acts up..but at least Lebanon will be at peace .


United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 (02 September 2004) called for the "disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias". The Government of Lebanon is responsible for the disbanding and disarming of the militias, including Hizballah, and preventing the flow of armaments and other military equipment to the militias, including Hizballah, from Syria, Iran, and other external sources. Lebanon basically rejected Resolution 1559, and by early 2005 this presented the risk of Israeli retaliation against vital Lebanese infrastructure to force action to disarm Hizballah

No pants..What part of Lebenon being responsible for the operations of an armed militia operating inside its borders and with a political wing that is part of the government of Lebenon do you not understand ?
Oh, so guerilla groups inside a country are controlled by the country? I guess that explains why we are planning to bomb all the South American countries around central america.

What part of the agreement that Lebenon made to be responsible for disarming these idiots did you MISS ?
"Please Mr Guerilla fighter, give me all your weapons."
The US couldn't fucking disarm loyal citizens without a riot and all out shoot out.

You want peace ?

Gert rid of hezbolla...instant peace..until hamas acts up..but at least Lebanon will be at peace .
Tell Israel to stop being a snot nosed brat and the US to pull its head oput of Israel's ass.

Here's my question.

According to some, hezbollah are purposely targetting civilians with their unguided rockets, but they've managed to kill twice as many soldiers as civilians.

Yet israel, with its percision weaponry, is only bombing terrorists and terrorist-related infrastructure. Though over a hundred civilians are dead.

Seems a bit odd to me, that you can purposely try to attack civilians with unguided rockets, and yet accidentally kill so many more civilians with guided bombs and missiles. Its just hard for me to put this together :P

I'm sure I can get one of our local conservatives or israeli's to put it together for me.

I believe I can speak for a few of when I say that the train of thought clearly shows you to be Martin Bormann.



Actually it is because HEzbollah hides among civilians..

Yes, whenever Israel destroys something, its because it should have been destroyed. Like the Zoo in Rafah, or the farms or olive trees in the west bank, or the dozens of pregnant women they cause to miscarry at checkpoints. If the IDF kick a dog, its because its carrying PLO fleas.


Lebanon didn't comply with the UN Resolutions to disarm Hezbollah. ..

The kind of resolutions that Israel have been ignoring for nearly 40 years? The ones that are unfair and don't count and are because the UN is run by Arabs and Nazis?

No pants your not really very good at social discourse . You should go work for the UN .

your excuses for the terrorist and the state they are in are pitifull BTW.

Israel seems to be disarming them for lebenon..when they get done maybe a few tree's will be left .

The most significant remaining armed group in Lebanon is Hizballah, which the Government refers to, not as a Lebanese militia, but as a “national resistance group”. Hizballah seeks to defend Lebanon from Israel and the removal of Israeli forces from Lebanese soil, namely, the Shab’a farms. Lebanon maintains that the Shab’a farms are Lebanese territory, not Syrian. In the Secretary-General’s report of 16 June 2000, however, he confirmed that Israel has fulfilled the requirements of Security Council resolutions 425 and 426 to “withdraw its forces from all Lebanese territory”. The Council endorsed that conclusion on 18 June 2000 in a presidential statement. Notwithstanding the Lebanese Government’s position that the Shab’a farms area lies within Lebanon, the Government has confirmed that it would respect the Blue Line as identified by the United Nations. The Council has called on Lebanon to respect fully its line.


way too easy .

Bye Bye .

way too easy .

Bye Bye .
You just contradicted yourself.
You just proved that they are not a militia, which you asserted, and in no way proved they have anythin to do with the Lebanonese government. Not to mention you said nothing of importance.

Yes, whenever Israel destroys something, its because it should have been destroyed. Like the Zoo in Rafah, or the farms or olive trees in the west bank, or the dozens of pregnant women they cause to miscarry at checkpoints. If the IDF kick a dog, its because its carrying PLO fleas.

It's the Uncle Jimbo Doctrine in practice. You can blow the fuck out of anything you like as long as you claim it's self-defense by yelling "LOOK OUT!! IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR US!!"

Oh, and those PLO fleas are carrying weapons-grade anthrax from Iraq.

The kind of resolutions that Israel have been ignoring for nearly 40 years? The ones that are unfair and don't count and are because the UN is run by Arabs and Nazis?

It's the Special Pleading Fallacy, which has long been part of the United States' geopolitical welfare for Israel.

But unless they're called Sinn Fein, we gun them down like the dirty brownskins they are, right?

:rolleyes:

Did Sinn Fein aim for the total destruction of Britain?

It isn't the Lebanese government.
Why am I even replying to you? You are another "pro-Israel or bust" or bust puppet.
I will just call all of your simitophiles, it will apply alot better than anti-semitic does to people who oppose the ridiculous Israeli tactics because you support any move by Israel.

This was just strawman.

Did Sinn Fein aim for the total destruction of Britain?
Just the wiping out of any Britons, Loyalists and mostly Protestants that didn't agree with their agenda, in Northern Ireland.

So not much, no.

You fail. There's a difference between deliberately attacking civilians and collateral damage.

Absolutely right.

The responsibility for civilian casualties incurred when Israel rightly attacks the terrorist organization Hezbollah-a member of the Lebanese government that has its own illegal militia and thousands of illegal weapons and that wrongly and without the least provocation attacked Israel and kidnapped and killed its citizens--lies solely and exclusively with Hezbollah.

If the whiners, criers and Israel-haters are so upset about civilian casualties, they can blame Hezbollah for locating their terrorist operations among civilians and hiding, like the cowards that all Islamofascists are, behind women and children. As long as Hezbollah operates out of civilian areas, there will be civilian casualties, and the blame will be on Hezbollah and only on Hezbollah.

But of course, Islamofascists like Hezbollah love killing women and children, so using them as human shields is as natural to them as feeding on shit is to flies.

Israel, do the civilized world a favor. Exterminate every last Hezbollahi.

Similar logic applies to Ham-ass, the terrorist group that now constitutes the so-called Palestinian government.

This was just strawman.
No, that was ad hominem. If you always support Israel, you always support Israel, I was not attacking your statement but you and your reasoning.

that has its own illegal militia and thousands of illegal weapons
You mean like the myriad of American gangs the government can't do shit about?

Man the semitiphile, anti-Arab racist puppets are out in full force.

Just the wiping out of any Britons, Loyalists and mostly Protestants that didn't agree with their agenda, in Northern Ireland.

So not much, no.

In Northern Ireland. Not in Britain. Whereas the organistion you people seem to love backed by the likes of Iran and Syria aims for total destruction of Israel.

Half of these terrorist apologist in this thread would have condemned the Poles for fighting the Nazi's in WWII and the other half would have protested the US attacking Japn after Pearl harbor.

Gert rid of hezbolla...instant peace..

Withdrawal from Gaza, instant peace. But too late for that now.

No, that was ad hominem. If you always support Israel, you always support Israel, I was not attacking your statement but you and your reasoning.


You mean like the myriad of American gangs the government can't do shit about?

Man the semitiphile, anti-Arab racist puppets are out in full force.

:rolleyes:
You assume that I ALWAYS support Israel. Hence it is also strawman.

Half of these terrorist apologist in this thread would have condemned the Poles for fighting the Nazi's in WWII and the other half would have protested the US attacking Japn after Pearl harbor.
Good thing there are no terorrist apologists on this forum.

In Northern Ireland. Not in Britain. Whereas the organistion you people seem to love backed by the likes of Iran and Syria aims for total destruction of Israel.

First off, they also bombed and killed people on 'mainland' Britain too. The killing of British citizens is still the same whether it is carried out in Northern Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales.

Wiping out people who don't agree with you is tantamount to destruction.

Secondly, no where have I said or alluded to any 'love' for Hezb'allah.

Thirdly, what the hell is your point?

In Northern Ireland. Not in Britain. Whereas the organistion you people seem to love backed by the likes of Iran and Syria aims for total destruction of Israel.
Well at the moment at least Northern Ireland is in Britain, which Sinn Fein disputes, much like Hizbolla et al. feel that Israel is wrongly on 'their' ie. Arab land.

Withdrawal from Gaza, instant peace. But too late for that now. Yes you are sooo right hamas made sure of that !

OMG ...peace is comming...lets kidnap and kill to put a stop to that shit NOW before it gets out of hand !

:rolleyes:
You assume that I ALWAYS support Israel. Hence it is also strawman.

We know you don't support Israel. You just hate brown people enough to go along with them.

Half of these terrorist apologist in this thread would have condemned the Poles for fighting the Nazi's in WWII and the other half would have protested the US attacking Japn after Pearl harbor.
Godwin.

You lose the thread.

Half of these terrorist apologist in this thread would have condemned the Poles for fighting the Nazi's in WWII and the other half would have protested the US attacking Japn after Pearl harbor.

And half the fascist imperialists in this thread would have supported Hitlers efforts to "liberate" Poland.

Just sayin'...

Casualties can occur if the ordinance lands a little off. Not beyond the realms of possibility.

(and no, I'm not condoning or defending anything here- just a comment :) )

Surely if you can't see the difference between straping explosives to someone and having them walk onto a bus which has no strategic value other then housing civilians.. vs bombing suspected enemy locations and strategic targets like airports, seaports, powerstations, and other infastructure.. then clearly your viewpoint is already bias to the point of impossible reasonable debate. There is such a thing as specificially targeting civilians vs collateral damage.

First off, they also bombed and killed people on 'mainland' Britain too. The killing of British citizens is still the same whether it is carried out in Northern Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales.

Wiping out people who don't agree with you is tantamount to destruction.

Secondly, no where have I said or alluded to any 'love' for Hezb'allah.

Thirdly, what the hell is your point?

The point is the difference between IRA and Hezbollah which you seem to ignore. IRA didnt want removal of all brits from British Isles. If Israel was invading Lebanon currently, you might have an analogy...

Withdrawal from Gaza, instant peace. But too late for that now.

Can we say "Oslo Accords"?

Who rejected those again?

:rolleyes:
You assume that I ALWAYS support Israel. Hence it is also strawman.
And what do you oppose Israel on?

If Israel was invading Lebanon currently, you might have an analogy...
Looks like an invasion to me.

Withdrawal from Gaza, instant peace. But too late for that now.

really.. cause from what I understand.. isreal was working toward that goal.. too bad Hamas has as their centered goal the destruction of israel in mind... also the brink of civil war in palestine hardly looked like instant peace to me >.>

Palestineans showed their inability to govern themselves..

The point is the difference between IRA and Hezbollah which you seem to ignore. IRA didnt want removal of all brits from British Isles. If Israel was invading Lebanon currently, you might have an analogy...

Uhm... How is what they are doing not an invasion into Lebanon?

The point is the difference between IRA and Hezbollah which you seem to ignore. IRA didnt want removal of all brits from British Isles.
You're absolutely right.

Which is why (prior to the stupid, stupid, stupid act of seizing the IDF soldiers), Hezb'allah have been quite quiet. Their only remaining beef was over the Shebaa Farms which is still disputed lands between Lebanon and Israel. Their primary purpose (unlike Hamas) was not the destruction of Israel, but the 'liberation' of Lebanon.

Hamas, on the other hand.... ugh.


If Israel was invading Lebanon currently, you might have an analogy...

You don't think of this as an invasion? *raises eyebrow*

And half the fascist imperialists in this thread would have supported Hitlers efforts to "liberate" Poland.

Godwins only for Hitler dude ...

At any rate what about the other half ? Would they have wanted some of Russia ?

BTW since when is a ' thread ' a "competition " to win or lose ?

Especially if you are discussing the possible beginning of WW III..
Or the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of people ?
\
if this is a " game " to you count me the hell out .

Godwins only for Hitler dude ...

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

You?
for fighting the Nazi's in WWII
Godwin. You lose the thread.

Uhm... How is what they are doing not an invasion into Lebanon?

Technically an invasion requries ground troops and the capturing of land.. up until now there have only been strategic airstrikes on Lebanon

We know you don't support Israel. You just hate brown people enough to go along with them.

Another strawman. Did they start mass producing them so everyone's throwing it? I dont hate brown people. Besides is Israel "white"?

Godwins only for Hitler dude ...

At any rate what about the other half ? Would they have wanted some of Russia ?

BTW since when is a ' thread ' a "competition " to win or lose ?

Especially if you are discussing the possible beginning of WW III..
Or the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of people ?
\
if this is a " game " to you count me the hell out .


Who knows? Liberate it from Communism?

BTW the "I win" "you lose" thing is just an expression that seems to be popular on here. I haven't used it once.

Another strawman. Did they start mass producing them so everyone's throwing it? I dont hate brown people. Besides is Israel "white"?

Which is why you keep talking about how Evil the Muslims are as if none of them are white, right?

Hezbollah? they are a Guerrilla group.

Other names used around:

Para-Militares,
Resistance,
Terrorits,
Freedom Figthers,
Insurgents,
Revolutionaries,
Civ.Reserve,
Militia,
Founding Fathers,
etc,etc,etc.

they are armed and figthting, cannot be considered Civileans.


Fun part is, until they pick up a gun and actually fire, and you can prove it, the Fourth Geneva Convention would consider them civvies.

Not to mention Hezbollah has this nasty habit of setting up camp around hospitals, schools, residential neighborhoods. You know, places where military forces are specifically not supposed to be.

You're absolutely right.

Which is why (prior to the stupid, stupid, stupid act of seizing the IDF soldiers), Hezb'allah have been quite quiet. Their only remaining beef was over the Shebaa Farms which is still disputed lands between Lebanon and Israel. Their primary purpose (unlike Hamas) was not the destruction of Israel, but the 'liberation' of Lebanon.

Hamas, on the other hand.... ugh.


Please. Hezbollah is just a radical muslim organisation and they all want Israel destroyed. That's why Iran supports them.



You don't think of this as an invasion? *raises eyebrow*

Was there any sort of invasion when they kidnapped the soldiers? Does Israel aim for any long term occupation of Lebanon besides the missions to destroy terrorists? If Israel doesnt aim for such a prolonged occupation, why does Hezbollah still exist and continue arming? And if there were NO terrorists, Israel would leave Lebanon alone. That's the point.

Which is why you keep talking about how Evil the Muslims are as if none of them are white, right?

I've never said muslims are evil. Your 3rd strawman in one page. The quality of your arguments are clear....:rolleyes:

Please. Hezbollah is just a radical muslim organisation and they all want Israel destroyed. That's why Iran supports them.

Well your in-depth anaysis and counter argument sure convinced me.....



Was there any sort of invasion when they kidnapped the soldiers?
Yes there was. Wed. 12th July, troops moved across the border before heavy fighting focred them back.

In response Israeli planes bomb Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon and troops cross into southern Lebanon for the first time since the military withdrawal of 2000.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

Does Israel aim for any long term occupation of Lebanon besides the missions to destroy terrorists? If Israel doesnt aim for such a prolonged occupation, why does Hezbollah still exist and continue arming? And if there were NO terrorists, Israel would leave Lebanon alone. That's the point.

Well, they were there for nigh on 20 years before now. And that worked so well....

Technically an invasion requries ground troops and the capturing of land.. up until now there have only been strategic airstrikes on Lebanon

No, troops have gone over the border.

You're absolutely right.

Which is why (prior to the stupid, stupid, stupid act of seizing the IDF soldiers), Hezb'allah have been quite quiet. Their only remaining beef was over the Shebaa Farms which is still disputed lands between Lebanon and Israel. Their primary purpose (unlike Hamas) was not the destruction of Israel, but the 'liberation' of Lebanon.

Hamas, on the other hand.... ugh.shebaa farms are siryan territory by the universal border. israel pullout from lebanon recognized has full withraw by the UN and most of the world.
syria don't demand control of this area, so this excuse may stay alive.


You don't think of this as an invasion? *raises eyebrow*not as long there isn't taking over of territories nor activity of land forces.

illegal militia ...
illegal weapons .would you say the Iraqui Insurgents are an Illegal militia??

LOL.. "illegal weapons".. what an oxymoron.

No, troops have gone over the border.
only as first act of chasing against the kidnappers.
after we see it isn't effective way to reach our goals, we stop it.

would have condemned the Poles for fighting the Nazi's in WWII ...I would have fully supported the Pole/French/etc "terrorists" figthing the Nazies.

not as long there isn't taking over of territories nor activity of land forces.

To further support Psychotic Mongoose's assertion that land forces are involved
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...l-lebanon.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...822988,00.html

Yes you are sooo right hamas made sure of that !

OMG ...peace is comming...lets kidnap and kill to put a stop to that shit NOW before it gets out of hand !

You talk like Israel had plans to withdraw from Gaza.

Fun part is, until they pick up a gun and actually fire... Israel and Lebanon are War-zones.. If you are a Lebanese and you pick up a gun.. If the IDF sees you, they will gun you down.. (I would if I was the IDF)..

its common sense.

If you are in a War zone and pick up a Gun.. you are taking a chance..
You will be killed/captured.. It is a consequence you know before hand..

If they kill/capture you.. do not complain (yes.. I know you cant complain if you are dead)

Can we say "Oslo Accords"?

Who rejected those again?

The Oslo Accords did not provide a full withdrawal. Also, many people on both sides rejected them.

I've never said muslims are evil. Your 3rd strawman in one page. The quality of your arguments are clear....:rolleyes:

Sure you didn't...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11117930&postcount=162

It won't be for much longer if things carry on the way they are. If muslims reach a majority, they'll do what's in their nature and completely culturally destroy Europe, turning it into their own islamic state.No way!! Look at all those majority muslim countries, all democratic and progressive. :rolleyes:

That was a real sincere defense of Islamic culture.


http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11124423&postcount=515

OH Noes! Teh evil Mooslems!!!111Oh shut up. Turkey is democratic and examplarery muslim country. All that human rights records, repression of women and homosexuals. A country in which 90% of women is subject to violance by their bf's or husbands DOES belong in EU (http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf (http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf)))

NOTE: Keep the sarcasm when you find it...

That's a great way to say you don't think Muslims are evil! :D

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11190760&postcount=183

Wasn't it under a Catholic pope that the Crusades were conducted? Wasn't it under Protestant leadership that the English Civil War was fought, as well as all the mini-wars of the Reformation? Wasn't it under secular leadership that two world wars were fought? In the ancient world, weren't all countries fighting with each other while practicing pagan religions? :rolleyes:Mohammed was a warior. Jesus on the other hand was pacifistic. Comparing one religions founder with popes are apples and oranges...
My point is, Islam is more agressive than ChristianityMuhammad spent his last ten years, from 613 to 622, as the ruler of a Muslim community in Medina that was engaged in constant warfare. Through raids, sieges, and diplomacy, he and his followers subdued most of the tribes and cities of the Arabian peninsula. They also sent out raiding parties against Arabic-speaking communities under Byzantine rulership.Edit:Criticisms

Muhammad's critics often hold that the Muslims engaged in wars of aggression, that they caused much bloodshed and suffering, that they imposed Islam at the point of a sword, and that Muhammad's conduct is not an example to be imitated.
[edit]

Muslim response to criticisms

Muslims respond by asserting that the Muslims fought only when attacked, or in the context of a wider war of self-defense. They argue that Muhammad was the first among the major military figures of history to lay down rules for humane warfare, and that he was scrupulous in limiting the loss of life as much as possible.

Sounds not "Islam is not Evil" to me there. :rolleyes:


http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11233552&postcount=45

Did you put me on 'ignore' or something?

One thing obviously had to do with the religion, the other does not. As far as regular Islamic theology is concerned, what the terrorists have done is not justifiable. As far as Muslims are concerned, there is no connection between them and their faith, and what these nutcases are doing.

You too should read the link I posted on the last page to the Islamism Study Thread.Oh Really? I read many quotes from Koran in several threads about how it is ok to kill infidels....

You didn't say Muslims are evil. Right.

Want me to give you the rest of the sampler platter Junior? Because even with this much, you've been pwned like Corneliu. It's only a straw man when it resorts to a different argument.

You talk like Israel had plans to withdraw from Gaza.
didn't here the news? israel pullout from gasa strip in the last august and detroy all the israeli setllement in the strip. we withraw all our forces from there, evict 8000 settlers and give the southern border control to egypt. the operation take less than 2 weeks.

The Oslo Accords did not provide a full withdrawal. Also, many people on both sides rejected them.
no, but it provide withdrawl from 95% of the territory and they could take less than their perfect solution. after that the proposal of barak and clinton provide them the strip and 98% from the westbank, and arrafat refused to take it and open the second intifada.

didn't here the news? israel pullout from gasa strip in the last august and detroy all the israeli setllement in the strip. we withraw all our forces from there, evict 8000 settlers and give the southern border control to egypt. the operation take less than 2 weeks.

Gaza after the withdrawal was one of the most depressing places on earth, with widespread starvation and vast unemployment, and it was not the Gazans’ fault: whether under Hamas or Fatah rule, Gaza can’t stand alone; this narrow strip is surrounded by Israeli troops and barbed wire, the Gazans have no way to sell their goods or to import their needs but through Jewish-controlled ports...Gazans openly regretted their new-found “independence”, because in the days of Israeli rule they could make a living working at Israeli factories, and the Israeli shelling was much more moderate, while “independent” Gaza was subjected to incessant shelling. Hundreds of missiles and shells were launched against this small strip of land daily, killing a few but ruining the nerves of its residents.

OK, they may have left. But they sure as hell continued to give the Palestinians hell.

The Oslo Accords did not provide a full withdrawal. Also, many people on both sides rejected them.

They agreed on Gaza, which is what you stated. Here's the accord section:

ANNEX II
PROTOCOL ON WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAELI FORCES FROM THE GAZA STRIP AND JERICHO AREA

The two sides will conclude and sign within two months from the date of entry into force of this Declaration of Principles, an agreement on the withdrawal of Israeli military forces from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area. This agreement will include comprehensive arrangements to apply in the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area subsequent to the Israeli withdrawal.

Israel will implement an accelerated and scheduled withdrawal of Israeli military forces from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area, beginning immediately with the signing of the agreement on the Gaza Strip and Jericho area and to be completed within a period not exceeding four months after the signing of this agreement.

The above agreement will include, among other things:

Arrangements for a smooth and peaceful transfer of authority from the Israeli military government and its Civil Administration to the Palestinian representatives.

Structure, powers and responsibilities of the Palestinian authority in these areas, except: external security, settlements, Israelis, foreign relations, and other mutually agreed matters.

Arrangements for the assumption of internal security and public order by the Palestinian police force consisting of police officers recruited locally and from abroad holding Jordanian passports and Palestinian documents issued by Egypt). Those who will participate in the Palestinian police force coming from abroad should be trained as police and police officers.

A temporary international or foreign presence, as agreed upon.

Establishment of a joint Palestinian-Israeli Coordination and Cooperation Committee for mutual security purposes.

An economic development and stabilization program, including the establishment of an Emergency Fund, to encourage foreign investment, and financial and economic support. Both sides will coordinate and cooperate jointly and unilaterally with regional and international parties to support these aims.

Arrangements for a safe passage for persons and transportation between the Gaza Strip and Jericho area.

The above agreement will include arrangements for coordination between both parties regarding passages:

Gaza - Egypt; and

Jericho - Jordan.





The Isreali Gov't overall accepted them. The majority of the PLO didn't including Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

OK, they may have left. But they sure as hell continued to give the Palestinians hell.
first, the part you quote is the most biased thing I read for a while.
at the first, the palastinians could work in israel and use our ports. the used this benefits for terror, so we had to restrict them more or take those benefits. the missles we fired were against their missle launchers, which launch missle on our cities, from the abandoned settlement
they had plans about agricultural areas (by using the israeli farms that stayed standings), industrial areas, port, airport, homes for refugees and much like that.
but they didn't control the area. anarchy take the place of israel, and all this plans were forgotten. terror organizations take over the streets and they get the current hell. israel has little to do with that.

beside, your argument line is confusing. first you tell that terror happened because israel didn't withdraw from gaza strip, and after I correct your mistake, you tell me that it just make thing worse and israel shouldn't withdraw from the strip at all.
atleast admit you wrong in the first place, because you can't eat the pie and make it stay un-eaten.

You fail. There's a difference between deliberately attacking civilians and collateral damage. You can take your "OMGooses!!!one The US is teh evil!!!11ty" elsewhere.
What do you expect it's OceanDrive, Israel is the incarnation of Evil to him, they kick puppies, run stop signs, Jaywalk, drink the blood of the innocent, and summon unholy demons in their spare time, the US government meanwhile, summons the undead, eats children, and work on their super evil plots in their underground Volcano lair in a plan to enslave mankind.

What do you expect it's OceanDrive, Israel is the incarnation of Evil to him, they kick puppies, run stop signs, Jaywalk, drink the blood of the innocent, and summon unholy demons in their spare time, the US government meanwhile, summons the undead, eats children, and work on their super evil plots in their underground Volcano lair in a plan to enslave mankind.LOL.
I am going to sig that. :D

and FYI If Israeli soldier kicks a puppie.. its because it has PLO flies ;)

The US is the game Evil Genius :eek:

What I am watching in Lebanon each day is an outrage (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?id=4796).

The US is the game Evil Genius :eek:

Two words that you can't even use a rivet gun and attach to Dear Leader.

:D

Can we say "Oslo Accords"?

Who rejected those again?

The people who put the majority of the 400,000 settlers now there into the West Bank post 1992, I'd say.

The people who put the majority of the 400,000 settlers now there into the West Bank post 1992, I'd say.
the current number is less than quarter a milion setllers. and most of the people who mistakaly convinced them to move there, changed their minds and want to evict them from these territories, so they probably weren't the ones which rejected oslo accords.

The people who put the majority of the 400,000 settlers now there into the West Bank post 1992, I'd say.

So you're saying the majority of the Palestinian organizations DID initially accept the terms?

So you're saying the majority of the Palestinian organizations DID initially accept the terms?

Palestinians fund the settlements? I think not.

Palestinians fund the settlements? I think not.

This isn't dodgeball. Are you saying that the majority of the Palestinian groups accepted the terms of the Oslo Accords at its' outset?

This isn't dodgeball. Are you saying that the majority of the Palestinian groups accepted the terms of the Oslo Accords at its' outset?

No, only the PLO/Fatah accepted them.

No, only the PLO/Fatah accepted them.

So then this:

The people who put the majority of the 400,000 settlers now there into the West Bank post 1992, I'd say.

was done by Hamas, etal?

So then this:



was done by Hamas, etal?

O...I see now. No, that was Netanyahu lifting the construction freeze. The accords were vague on the Issue, and once Rabin was gone it was back to business as usual.

O...I see now. No, that was Netanyahu lifting the construction freeze. The accords were vague on the Issue, and once Rabin was gone it was back to business as usual.what about the apartheid wall ?

200 people in a week is a bit much as far as collateral damage is concerned. They need to stop hitting civilian homes in Beirut, regardless of who's doing what in one of the apartments.

200 people in a week is a bit much as far as collateral damage is concerned. They need to stop hitting civilian homes in Beirut, regardless of who's doing what in one of the apartments.

You said it.

Is it just me, or does Israel seem to have a "thing" for collateral damage of such calibre? Don't get me wrong, I loathe the despicable Arab states... And I equally loathe the pseudo-Fascist state that is Israel. Anti-Semitism this isn't, but as usual, I'll have a few posters shitting on me for my statements here.

You see, when someone attacks you, then you can retaliate and it's self defense.

Yes, if you try to bite me, I can defend myself by pushing you away and making sure you can't nibble at my flesh. Now, if you try to bite me and I bash your face in with a 30lb (13.6kg) f--king sledgehammer, then it's not quite self-defense anymore.

Yes, if you try to bite me, I can defend myself by pushing you away and making sure you can't nibble at my flesh. Now, if you try to bite me and I bash your face in with a 30lb (13.6kg) f--king sledgehammer, then it's not quite self-defense anymore.

More like smash your fucking face with said sledgehammer and kill your friends and/or neighbors.

More like smash your fucking face with said sledgehammer and kill your friends and/or neighbors.

Fair enough, but I was just trying to point out Israel's propensity to disproportionate retaliation. (my own phrase, might not actually make sense)

Good thing there are no terorrist apologists on this forum.
Was that sarcasm or did I miss something?

Yes, if you try to bite me, I can defend myself by pushing you away and making sure you can't nibble at my flesh. Now, if you try to bite me and I bash your face in with a 30lb (13.6kg) f--king sledgehammer, then it's not quite self-defense anymore.

No, it's more like someone trying to stab you with a knife and you blow them up with a rocket launcher. It's certainly over the top, but you'd probably be legally justified to do so.

Actually, I've found out that most of the civilian deaths are in southern Lebanon. THey are from Israel's counter-battery fire. The Hezbollah are launching the Ketyusha and other rockets from southern cities. Israeli artillery batteries have counter-battery RADARs which pinpoint the area where the incoming shells are coming from. The battery then unleashes its 155 mm shells. It's Hezbollah's fault for fring the rockets from cities. Israel can't be blamed for that. The action of firing at launch points against Israel is 100% self defense.

If you bomb an airport, I would say you are deliberately trying to harm innocents.

No, Israel bombed the runway to stop air traffic. They didn't bomb any aircraft or terminals.

No, Israel bombed the runway to stop air traffic. They didn't bomb any aircraft or terminals.
Oh no, you just tried to confuse the anti-Jewish poster with facts. How dare you!!!

Actually, I've found out that most of the civilian deaths are in southern Lebanon. THey are from Israel's counter-battery fire...in your opinion.. how accurate are 155 mm artillery shells?

in your opinion.. how accurate are 155 mm artillery shells?

Depends on the crew.

No, Israel bombed the runway to stop air traffic. They didn't bomb any aircraft or terminals.
Destroying infrastructure like runways ist just as bad, no matter if they hit any aircraft or terminals.

Destroying infrastructure like runways ist just as bad, no matter if they hit any aircraft or terminals.
no, it didn't take civilian lives but still achieved the goal of harming the supply lines of the terrorists.

no, it didn't take civilian lives but still achieved the goal of harming the supply lines of the terrorists.
It does take civilian lives when folks cannot leave as the Jews attack Beyrut. Destroying an airport means targeting the entire population.

No, Israel bombed the runway to stop air traffic. (and Terrorists use the Airport)
most "Terrrorrists" use the Internet too, and some of them use the London tube, others use the French telephone Service, some use the Michigan public transportation...

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

The fact of the matter is that Israel has always been a terrorist state ever since its articifial creation. But what does one expect? Judaism is an unenlightened aggressive ideology after all.

It does take civilian lives when folks cannot leave as the Jews attack Beyrut. Destroying an airport means targeting the entire population.
no, airports are strategical target that their harm, harm the terrorists. the civilians won'y targeted.

The fact of the matter is that Israel has always been a terrorist state ever since its articifial creation. But what does one expect? Judaism is an unenlightened aggressive ideology after all.
now, this Is anti-semitic statement which show your motives for all your posts. you specifically target the jews and the judaism and make assemptions of the jewish country regardless to any known fact.
you had no point to deny it, what you said speak for itself.

I think the resistance fighters of Hezbollah, hamas and other should just come out and say that they are targeting legitimate "strategic" positions as the Israelis call it so that when they kill so-call "innocent" Israel civilians(although there really is no such thing) they can just say, "oh sorry for the collateral dammage". That will make you feel when your wife and children are blown to pieces since afterall, it was an accident...right Israel?:rolleyes:

I think the resistance fighters of Hezbollah, hamas and other should just come out and say that they are targeting legitimate "strategic" positions as the Israelis call it so that when they kill so-call "innocent" Israel civilians(although there really is no such thing) they can just say, "oh sorry for the collateral dammage". That will make you feel when your wife and children are blown to pieces since afterall, it was an accident...right Israel?:rolleyes:
who aim the civilians? the terrorists. they can't say it is accident when they stated that as their goal.
and what the hell, you mean by their isn't innocent israelis? you probably going to tell that every one that israel kill is innocent and there isn't such thing as terrorist.
your bias is way to big.

Oh no, you just tried to confuse the anti-Jewish poster with facts. How dare you!!!

So what if they only bombed the runways? They also bombed the Beirut-Damascus highway, as well as blockaded the lebanese coast, trapping civilians while Israel starts bombing them. I will now give you some info about 155mm shells, because you must know nothing about ground warfare, so I don't know why you named yourself IDF.

My uncle was a brigadier general in the iraqi army back when it was good, and he was specialised in artillery. 155mm artillery is crazy when there is a single target inside an urban area, and a dense one at that. That is why only 50% of israelis killed are civilians while 90% of lebanese killed are civilians. Artillery is used for indirect fire, it is not a gun. Artillery is used to attack a general area, for example a battalion of tanks, artillery is not used in urban areas, because it is very dangerous.

OHHH, but Israel has a right to defend itself, anyway it wishes!!!! /sarcasm

So what if they only bombed the runways? They also bombed the Beirut-Damascus highway, as well as blockaded the lebanese coast, trapping civilians while Israel starts bombing them. I will now give you some info about 155mm shells, because you must know nothing about ground warfare, so I don't know why you named yourself IDF.

My uncle was a brigadier general in the iraqi army back when it was good, and he was specialised in artillery. 155mm artillery is crazy when there is a single target inside an urban area, and a dense one at that. That is why only 50% of israelis killed are civilians while 90% of lebanese killed are civilians. Artillery is used for indirect fire, it is not a gun. Artillery is used to attack a general area, for example a battalion of tanks, artillery is not used in urban areas, because it is very dangerous.

OHHH, but Israel has a right to defend itself, anyway it wishes!!!! /sarcasm
and that is the exact reason why the tactics of terrorist to launch missle from this areas is humanshielding. they know what will happen, thus it is their responsibility to take care for their populace.
besides, if it wasn't artillery it was ground invasion or airial bombarement. you probably against these tactics either.

and what the hell, you mean by their isn't innocent israelis?

Well for one thing most Israelis are immigrants who came to Israel fully aware of their policy of occupation, not innocent. On top of that, all Israelis serve in the military, the same military that invades and occupies it neighbours slaughtering 1,000s of innocent civilians along the way, once again not innocent.

your bias is way to big.
and your point is...

Not to enter the argument, you notice that they only damaged that huge bridge that was made by the EU? I guess they realize that they can't destroy EVERYTHING. All I know, Lebanon is going to need alot of cement after this is over.

Well for one thing most Israelis are immigrants who came to Israel fully aware of their policy of occupation, not innocent. On top of that, all Israelis serve in the military, the same military that invades and occupies it neighbours slaughtering 1,000s of innocent civilians along the way, once again not innocent. what a crap. there even not quarter of the ammount you said of civilian deaths, it even don't close to be slaughetering, we had no present policy of ocuption, and we currently withdrawing from our territories.
also, you kind of argument mean that all the germans should be killed because of the holocust, all the other european countries shoulc be destroyed for their imperialism past crimes or the crimes at the crusades, american should be shot for the occuption of the natives and thier 2 nuclear bombs they launch on the japanies (which deserve death because of their crimes in the WW2 and before), and any muslim or arab in the world should be excuted because they "fully aware about the policy of terror crimes which done by their name, or support it".
we don't going to stay with many people in the world, if you try to apply this racist bullshit to any nation or religion. if you tell me it apply only to israel this is perfect prove for anti-semitism.
you prefer to kill all the humanity, or just the jews?
and your point is...there isn't point to argue with such close-minds as you are.

and that is the exact reason why the tactics of terrorist to launch missle from this areas is humanshielding. they know what will happen, thus it is their responsibility to take care for their populace.
besides, if it wasn't artillery it was ground invasion or airial bombarement. you probably against these tactics either.

How about a ceasefire? Or stopping the operation?

Israel has already refused a ceasefire. The rocket attacks started from Hezbollah only after Israel bombed Beirut and Rafik Hariri International Airport. Before, it was simply an attack at a MILITARY target. The fact that they crossed the border is irrelevant, Israel has been violating Lebanese airspace for sometime, even after the withdrawal.

Yes, I am against those tactics, however if Israel has to feel secure by blowing things up, then they could always use very small rockets to be fired at the targetted areas. Also, most of these rocket attacks kill 1 Israeli, while Israels retaliation killed at least 5 Lebanese, so really Israel has quite a bigoted view on the value of human life.

USgov: When Israel kills Civileans its self-defense, when Arabs do it its Terrorism

You got it wrong: when MUSLIMS kill civilians, the American Government calls it terrorism.

Your spelling is not all that good either.

How about a ceasefire? Or stopping the operation?

Israel has already refused a ceasefire. The rocket attacks started from Hezbollah only after Israel bombed Beirut and Rafik Hariri International Airport. Before, it was simply an attack at a MILITARY target. The fact that they crossed the border is irrelevant, Israel has been violating Lebanese airspace for sometime, even after the withdrawal.the rockets start before to distract us from the kidnapping. they do launch more of them after the israeli actions. we didn't violate their air space, unless they try to attack us via the air.
the "ceasefire" which refused, refused also by hizbulla, and we don't need to agree for ceasefire in their terms (don't disarm the hizbulla or his rocket launchers, and don't free the soldiers without thousands of terrorists will be free). this ceasefire proposal mean nothing, and they launch it when they know we can't accept that.

Yes, I am against those tactics, however if Israel has to feel secure by blowing things up, then they could always use very small rockets to be fired at the targetted areas. Also, most of these rocket attacks kill 1 Israeli, while Israels retaliation killed at least 5 Lebanese, so really Israel has quite a bigoted view on the value of human life.
wrong equation. israel is less dense area, large parts of her northern citizens left to further areas, other mostly live now in shelters, and her weaponay are much better and stronger.
ovcourse we will had less victims in any war we make, no matter how hard we will try to avoid it (and we try). also hizbulla used the lebannese as human shields while he shot from popoluted areas and encourage this people to stay in their home and not run to the north after IDF warn them they could be hurt.

Actually, I've found out that most of the civilian deaths are in southern Lebanon. THey are from Israel's counter-battery fire. The Hezbollah are launching the Ketyusha and other rockets from southern cities. Israeli artillery batteries have counter-battery RADARs which pinpoint the area where the incoming shells are coming from. The battery then unleashes its 155 mm shells. It's Hezbollah's fault for fring the rockets from cities. Israel can't be blamed for that. The action of firing at launch points against Israel is 100% self defense.

So Hezbollah were firing rockets out of the Kentucky fried in Tyre?

So Hezbollah were firing rockets out of the Kentucky fried in Tyre?
Either yes, they were, or gasp! A mistake might have been made in a war. Believe or not, sometimes bombs don't hit their targets. Of course the resultant tragedy is horrific, but at least the IDF is trying. Hezbollah is attempting to kill every Jew in Israel, their current primary method being rockets launched into civilian population centers. The IDF targets Hezbollah rocket sites (a logical step, given that's what's killing Israelis) and then you blame them when one bomb might have gone astray? How about blaming Hezbollah for intentionally targeting civilians? Oh, wait, no...because then we couldn't play the chic "bash Israel" game.

Sure you didn't...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11117930&postcount=162



That was a real sincere defense of Islamic culture.


http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11124423&postcount=515



That's a great way to say you don't think Muslims are evil! :D

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11190760&postcount=183



Sounds not "Islam is not Evil" to me there. :rolleyes:


http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11233552&postcount=45



You didn't say Muslims are evil. Right.

Want me to give you the rest of the sampler platter Junior? Because even with this much, you've been pwned like Corneliu. It's only a straw man when it resorts to a different argument.

I dont like Islamic culture. I'm highly critical of it. I tend to dislike muslims too, yes. However, those dont mean that I believe all muslims are evil. I've never said it. If you reached to that conclusion based on my quotes, it's either the lack of your comprehension skills or paranoia. Besides, are you American? Is that why you assume that I believe evil vs good, black and white, simplistic world view? Do you think that I believe something is good when I'm not criticising it and it's evil when I'm criticising it? :rolleyes:
Again, your post was just a huge straw man. Low quality...

I dont like Islamic culture. I'm highly critical of it. I tend to dislike muslims too, yes. However, those dont mean that I believe all muslims are evil. I've never said it. If you reached to that conclusion based on my quotes, it's either the lack of your comprehension skills or paranoia. Besides, are you American? Is that why you assume that I believe evil vs good, black and white, simplistic world view? Do you think that I believe something is good when I'm not criticising it and it's evil when I'm criticising it? :rolleyes:
Again, your post was just a huge straw man. Low quality...
These threads need to be closed, they always get flooded with anti-Arab/Muslim racists of either Israeli descent or Israeli ass-kissing.

Hezbollah needs to spend some time learning from the Tamil Tigers. Those guys know how to run a guerilla force.

These threads need to be closed, they always get flooded with anti-Arab/Muslim racists of either Israeli descent or Israeli ass-kissing.

Really? To me it seems that these threads always get flooded by kneejerk anti-Israel wannabe-leftists who verge on anti-Semitism and like to use epithets instead of argument. But hey, perspective.

Really? To me it seems that these threads always get flooded by kneejerk anti-Israel wannabe-leftists who verge on anti-Semitism and like to use epithets instead of argument. But hey, perspective.

Damn right. If it isn't going down on israel, it's anti-semitic!

Really? To me it seems that these threads always get flooded by kneejerk anti-Israel wannabe-leftists who verge on anti-Semitism and like to use epithets instead of argument. But hey, perspective.
They also attract upstart racist puppets.
Anti-semitic? I've only seen one anti-semitic comment. Oh wait, I forgot. Any negative opinion of Israel's actions is anti-semitic. A very good reason to dismantle the very nation itself - the nation is held up and supported because it is Jewish based and thus every crys antisemitism any time anyone disagrees with them, thusly the very existance of the nation itself is a hinderance to any sort of tranquil, comprehensive, and working Middle Eastern policies.

These threads need to be closed, they always get flooded with anti-Arab/Muslim racists of either Israeli descent or Israeli ass-kissing.

Me, Israeli ass-kissing? LOL
Me, Israeli descent? 100 x LOL

Maybe if you put your pants back on, the quality of your posts might rise. It's worth a shot, because it cant get any lower.

Oh, Ny Nordland?

That makes any post you have made null and void instantly.

Ny Norldland, ROFL.

Oh, Ny Nordland?

That makes any post you have made null and void instantly.

Ny Norldland, ROFL.

How old are you? Like 9?

They also attract upstart racist puppets.
Anti-semitic? I've only seen one anti-semitic comment. Oh wait, I forgot. Any negative opinion of Israel's actions is anti-semitic. A very good reason to dismantle the very nation itself - the nation is held up and supported because it is Jewish based and thus every crys antisemitism any time anyone disagrees with them, thusly the very existance of the nation itself is a hinderance to any sort of tranquil, comprehensive, and working Middle Eastern policies.
No, it's not. Stop essentializing. There are some people who seem to equate every criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism; they irritate me because they let people like you say exactly what you just did, when there's an enormous amount of anti-Semitism in the world, some of which does hide behind criticism of Israel to get its message out. Try reading an Arab newspaper for a few days. Or try going to a synagogue for a year in Paris.

Also, your logic makes no sense. We should get rid of Israel because saying things are anti-semitic caused the Middle East crisis? Even extremists don't think that's why Israel is unpopular in the region. Further, calling for the destruction of the state of Israel is, given the massive slaughter of Jews that would almost certainly be entailed in the practical application of the idea, one of the times where anti-Israel rhetoric crosses the line into anti-Semitism. It's legitimate to think that Israel should curb its tactics, or withdraw from WB and Gaza, or even to say that the formation of Israel by the UN was a mistake. But it is offensive to say we should take all Jews away and deposit them in some camp somewhere.

The fact of the matter is that Israel has always been a terrorist state ever since its articifial creation. But what does one expect? Judaism is an unenlightened aggressive ideology after all.
You really are an anti-semitic bastard, aren't you?

How old are you? Like 9?

No, but you're a racist troll most of the time. That invalidates any post you make.

Ny Nordland, ROFLMAO.

Really? To me it seems that these threads always get flooded by kneejerk anti-Israel wannabe-leftists who verge on anti-Semitism and like to use epithets instead of argument. But hey, perspective.
Who here has expressed any anti-semitic viewpoints?

You missed what I am saying.
Israel has two defenses that allow it to get away with anything it wants: 1) the US is their lapdog and 2) they hide behind accusing their detractors with antisemitism.

Further, calling for the destruction of the state of Israel is, given the massive slaughter of Jews that would almost certainly be entailed in the practical application of the idea, one of the times where anti-Israel rhetoric crosses the line into anti-Semitism.
Case in point. Not only do you not understand what I say but you warp what I say into saying I advocate the destruction of Israel and accuse me of antisemitism. Hypocrite.

Who here has expressed any anti-semitic viewpoints?
I saw one poster call Judaism something like "an evil religion" or "a perspective of violence." I can't remember who it was, and if I accuse the wrong person, I'd feel pretty bad/stupid.

EDIT: IDF quoted the post I was referring to a few posts above.

Plus, there's a distinction between outright anti-Semitism and verging on it.

I would also argue that calling for the destruction of the state of Israel is anti-Semitic.

I saw one poster call Judaism something like "an evil religion" or "a perspective of violence." I can't remember who it was, and if I accuse the wrong person, I'd feel pretty bad/stupid.

EDIT: IDF quoted the post I was referring to a few posts above.

Plus, there's a distinction between outright anti-Semitism and verging on it.

I would also argue that calling for the destruction of the state of Israel is anti-Semitic.
If you feel like streaching the word beyond all meaning then I supose you could call it that.

You missed what I am saying.
Israel has two defenses that allow it to get away with anything it wants: 1) the US is their lapdog and 2) they hide behind accusing their detractors with antisemitism.

I don't think Israel can get away with anything it wants in the international arena. I'm fairly certain they don't, given the UN's track record. Also, show me where Israeli representatives have made accusations of anti-Semitism.

Further, the US is not Israel's lapdog. It's in the US' strategic interest to support Israel, especially now.

Case in point. Not only do you not understand what I say but you warp what I say into saying I advocate the destruction of Israel and accuse me of antisemitism. Hypocrite.
A very good reason to dismantle the very nation itself
And that's not calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. That's pretty naked. And a pretty bad thing to lie about.

I would also argue that calling for the destruction of the state of Israel is anti-Semitic.
Of course we have to take your definition on what "argue for the destruction of Israel" means.

If you feel like streaching the word beyond all meaning then I supose you could call it that.
Any argument there, or are you just going to assert something without any warranted analysis?

Of course we have to take your definition on what "argue for the destruction of Israel" means.
Saying that we should (insert synonym for destroy, like "eliminate" or "dismantle") the State of Israel.

Any argument there, or are you just going to assert something without any warranted analysis?
I responded in a way your post deserved. Anti-Semitism is based on hatred or maltreatment based on their Jewish Race/Religion

A large majority of the people here dislike the state actions it has nothing to do with their Race or religion

But you would not be the first to stretch definitions beyond their intended meaning

Saying that we should (insert synonym for destroy, like "eliminate" or "dismantle") the State of Israel.
Too bad you fail at semantics. Dismantle is not synonymous with destroy or eliminate on that level.

Israel is a world sanctioned terrorist. There is no war, there is just an Israeli attack on Lebanon under the guise of fighting back against Hezbollah.

I'm going to TRY to make some sense of your logic, which appears to have no factual influence at all. You're saying that Israel is a terrorist, because in the course of eliminating the leadership of a group of genocidal extremists who kidnap their soldiers, they cause inadvertent civilian damage? You're either an anti-Semite or a terrorist sympathizer if you honestly think that, in which case any rational person's opinion of your intelligence would be further worsened.

I responded in a way your post deserved. Anti-Semitism is based on hatred or maltreatment based on their Jewish Race/Religion

A large majority of the people here dislike the state actions it has nothing to do with their Race or religion

But you would not be the first to stretch definitions beyond their intended meaning
Read my earlier post again. Then read why calling for the destruction of the State of Israel necessarily entails "maltreatment based on Jewishness." Then, respond to that part of the analysis before dismissing it, generally a tactic of people who can't think of any actual arguments.

Too bad you fail at semantics. Dismantle is not synonymous with destroy or eliminate on that level.
Oh, so you called for the destruction of Israel using nicer words. Of course I was wrong. I'm so sorry.

Oh, and you're the one that fails at semantics:
Main Entry: dismantle
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: take apart
Synonyms: annihilate

Is "annihilate" strong enough for you?

Oh, so you called for the destruction of Israel using nicer words. Of course I was wrong. I'm so sorry.

Oh, and you're the one that fails at semantics:


Is "annihilate" strong enough for you?
You're wasting your time. Teh Pantless Hero is a classic anti-semite. He just doesn't want to say so because it would discredit all he says.

I'm going to TRY to make some sense of your logic, which appears to have no factual influence at all. You're saying that Israel is a terrorist, because in the course of eliminating the leadership of a group of genocidal extremists who kidnap their soldiers, they cause inadvertent civilian damage? You're either an anti-Semite or a terrorist sympathizer if you honestly think that, in which case any rational person's opinion of your intelligence would be further worsened.
Israel must have to fend off people trying to blow them with a stick.

Read my earlier post again. Then read why calling for the destruction of the State of Israel necessarily entails "maltreatment based on Jewishness." Then, respond to that part of the analysis before dismissing it, generally a tactic of people who can't think of any actual arguments.
That’s like saying you punched me just because I am white… I may have just been acting like a jackass and deserved it.

So in the end is every action detrimental to the state of Israel automatically “Anti-Semitic” ?

Read my earlier post again. Then read why calling for the destruction of the State of Israel necessarily entails "maltreatment based on Jewishness." Then, respond to that part of the analysis before dismissing it, generally a tactic of people who can't think of any actual arguments.
No, how do you know he's not an anarchist? The destruction of all States is their primary goal.

Merely because Israel is a religiously based state, he's being anti-Semitic? :rolleyes: Maybe, he's being anarchistic.

That’s like saying you punched me just because I am white… I may have just been acting like a jackass and deserved it.
No, it's not. Being punched is not the same as either moving/killing 5.43 million Jews. Size does matter in determining intent.

So in the end is every action detrimental to the state of Israel automatically “Anti-Semitic” ?
Nope. Israel doesn't want to pull back to the 67 lines, but I've seen intelligent people argue that it should in a manner that doesn't have a trace of anti-Semitism. Plus, I've been using your definition of anti-Semitism the entire time.

No, how do you know he's not an anarchist? The destruction of all States is their primary goal.

Merely because Israel is a religiously based state, he's being anti-Semitic? :rolleyes: Maybe, he's being anarchistic.
Because if you read his other posts, he's not. Plus, singling Israel out in that circumstance changes everything. Context matters a lot more than an unsupported chain of suppositions with no basis in fact.

No, how do you know he's not an anarchist? The destruction of all States is their primary goal.

Merely because Israel is a religiously based state, he's being anti-Semitic? :rolleyes: Maybe, he's being anarchistic.
It has nothing to do with anarchism or the fact that Israel is a "Jewish" state. Well, my point at first has everything to do with it being a Jewish state - they can get away with murder because everyone is sympathetic to the Jews where they live. The state either needs to be dismantled bythe same organization that created it as a threat to possible peace in the region (Lebanon was moving towards a worknig democracy, not any more skippy. Hezbollah will sweep the next election just like Hamas in Palestine) or, the state itself needs to be moved to a region where it can grow and work independent of all the pitying the Jews and be allowed to be judged fairly as a state, not for being Jewish among Arabians and Persians (Iran). Give Israel a quarter of Texas, it will probably be bigger anyway and the rest of the Texans can use up the rest.

These threads need to be closed, they always get flooded with anti-Arab/Muslim racists of either Israeli descent or Israeli ass-kissing.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

You're saying that Israelis who don't trust Arabs are being irrational? Would even an IDIOT trust someone who had openly stated a desire to destroy them? You're saying that people who would rather have a non-extremist government in the Middle East are kissing the Israeli's asses? You seem to lack any sense of logic.

Because if you read his other posts, he's not.
That doesn't go to explain other peoples apparant 'anti-Semitic' feelings- supposedly this thread is full of them because they are critical of the State's policies.

Plus, singling Israel out in that circumstance changes everything. Context matters a lot more than an unsupported chain of suppositions with no basis in fact.

The thread is about Israel. That's why its brought up.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

You're saying that Israelis who don't trust Arabs are being irrational? Would even an IDIOT trust someone who had openly stated a desire to destroy them? You're saying that people who would rather have a non-extremist government in the Middle East are kissing the Israeli's asses? You seem to lack any sense of logic.

He stated, and I quote "I don't like Islam and tend to not like Muslims."
Racist.

You're wasting your time. Teh Pantless Hero is a classic anti-semite. He just doesn't want to say so because it would discredit all he says.

Damn right. Why doesn't he just accept that he's already discredited everything he says be being a FUCKTARD and admit that he's an antisemite? It would make things so much easier.

EDIT:

He stated, and I quote "I don't like Islam and tend to not like Muslims." Racist.

Fuck you dude. I'm an American. And some of my best friends are muslims. You, however, are an intolerant prick. Get over Israel as a "terrorist." Through 60 years of fighting for their own survival they've beaten the Arabs at every turn and it won't change soon.

It has nothing to do with anarchism or the fact that Israel is a "Jewish" state. Well, my point at first has everything to do with it being a Jewish state - they can get away with murder because everyone is sympathetic to the Jews where they live.
Ok, no. Have you looked at the history of the international community with regards to Israel anytime soon? And have you even bothered to compare the IDF's policies with Hezbollah's or Hamas'? No, probably not. Because that would make the world a lot less black and white, and we can't have that, no? It takes all of the fun out of hating Israel.

The state either needs to be dismantled bythe same organization that created it as a threat to possible peace in the region (Lebanon was moving towards a worknig democracy, not any more skippy. Hezbollah will sweep the next election just like Hamas in Palestine)
Well, thanks for proving my point for me about "dismantle."

Please, Israel's the threat? Who attacked first? Right, Hamas. Then Israel responded in Gaza. Then for no apparent reason, Hezbollah attacks Israel. So now that makes Israel the threat...riiight.

As for Lebanese democracy? 1. Syria and Iran still dominated the country. 2. Hezbollah held positions in government and was the largest single political party (holding a plurality). So we love democracies that are run by terrorists, right?

And about the next Lebanese election - the majority of Lebanese citizens are blaming Hezbollah for the crisis. Only Shi'a Muslims support the group, and while they make up a plurality of Lebanon, the majority of the population still is against Hezbollah.

or, the state itself needs to be moved to a region where it can grow and work independent of all the pitying the Jews and be allowed to be judged fairly as a state, not for being Jewish among Arabians and Persians (Iran). Give Israel a quarter of Texas, it will probably be bigger anyway and the rest of the Texans can use up the rest.
So it's ok to bulldoze Jewish houses and forcibly remove Jews from a land they've lived in for generations and then deposit them in land someone else has been living in for generations? That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Oh, wait...that's part of the UN's definition. Huh.

Ok, no. Have you looked at the history of the international community with regards to Israel anytime soon? And have you even bothered to compare the IDF's policies with Hezbollah's or Hamas'? No, probably not. Because that would make the world a lot less black and white, and we can't have that, no? It takes all of the fun out of hating Israel.
What was your "no factual basis" statement again?


Well, thanks for proving my point for me about "dismantle."
It was "created" by an international order by some UN like structure if not the UN.

Please, Israel's the threat? Who attacked first? Right, Hamas. Then Israel responded in Gaza. Then for no apparent reason, Hezbollah attacks Israel. So now that makes Israel the threat...riiight.
Thanks Captain Irrelevant. 11 to 1 odds Hezbollah sweeps Lebanese elections like Hamas did Palestine. The fault of which is not Palestine's or Lebanon's.

As for Lebanese democracy? 1. Syria and Iran still dominated the country.
And the US respected Lebanon as a rising democracy. No more skippy.

2. Hezbollah held positions in government and was the largest single political party (holding a plurality). So we love democracies that are run by terrorists, right?
And Hezbollah will win every seat next time due to this move by Israel. Get rid of the "OMG HE OPPOSES ISRAEl, HE SUPPORTS TERRORISM AND IS AN ANTISEMITE" bullshit and think straight.

And about the next Lebanese election - the majority of Lebanese citizens are blaming Hezbollah for the crisis. Only Shi'a Muslims support the group, and while they make up a plurality of Lebanon, the majority of the population still is against Hezbollah.
11 to 1.

So it's ok to bulldoze Jewish houses and forcibly remove Jews from a land they've lived in for generations and then deposit them in land someone else has been living in for generations? That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Oh, wait...that's part of the UN's definition. Huh.
Oh look, no factual basis for the statement, your own pro-Israel, knee-jerk interpretation of what I said, and then just a plain insult. This thread needs to be closed, now.

Israel was created by the same general assembly it chooses to ignore on grounds of antisemitism.:rolleyes:

You're saying that Israelis who don't trust Arabs are being irrational? Would even an IDIOT trust someone who had openly stated a desire to destroy them?

Would the Arabs trust the Jews that openly stated a desire to destroy them?

"The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers, 1988

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978....


I can go on but I dont want to.

Would the Arabs trust the Jews that openly stated a desire to destroy them?



I can go on but I dont want to.
WHat you intentionally left out of there was the fact that the Israelis hold those views as a reaction to the attempted genocide on the part of the Arabs. The Jews in Israel have been fending off Arab attacks since the Mufti attacked Jews at the Wailing Wall in 1920. Also add in the fact that the Jews will be more likely to fight because we saw what happened when we didn't fight back against the Nazis.

WHat you intentionally left out of there was the fact that the Israelis hold those views as a reaction to the attempted genocide on the part of the Arabs. The Jews in Israel have been fending off Arab attacks since the Mufti attacked Jews at the Wailing Wall in 1920. Also add in the fact that the Jews will be more likely to fight because we saw what happened when we didn't fight back against the Nazis.

They may hold those views to be a reaction, but they are wrong. The violence from the Palestinians is the reaction.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.