NationStates Jolt Archive

We've entered into the next state of a GA thread. "Oh woe is me. I'm diseased, no one likes me, I'm special and unique, I'm not even a human being boo fucking hoo."

It's his ... 'thing.'
I'm still waiting for him to name that disease he has, Assburger or something, forgot what it was, and say that because of it it's okay to behave like a total http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/donkey.gif.

Don't feed that http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Trollbaby.jpg.

I'm still waiting for him to name that disease he has, Assburger or something, forgot what it was, and say that because of it it's okay to behave like a total http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/donkey.gif.

Don't feed that http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Trollbaby.jpg.
Oh, come on. I feel bad enough that I missed out on the new troll in the ATTN thread. Don't spoil the fun :(

Oh, come on. I feel bad enough that I missed out on the new troll in the ATTN thread. Don't spoil the fun :(

I've got a feeling that one will be back. I'll leave him to you, then :D

It's worth it.

Ah, they must keep you around for comic relief. Then again self loathing isn't very funny. More like sad :-)

Look, I've been doing a major work for extension history on a relatable topic to this, and this really interests me.

I'll be brief and accept criticism: I believe that the monuments should stay, more as a reminder of the end of such a costly war, rather than a symbol of "Who won" over an otherwise 'evil' regime. After reading all of what you here said, I know that the monument is REALLY controversial (and I'm sorry to add to it and thus create more anger) and believe that they should be kept as a reminder of the folly such a of war, if not all war.

Look, I've been doing a major work for extension history on a relatable topic to this, and this really interests me.

I'll be brief and accept criticism: I believe that the monuments should stay, more as a reminder of the end of such a costly war, rather than a symbol of "Who won" over an otherwise 'evil' regime. After reading all of what you here said, I know that the monument is REALLY controversial (and I'm sorry to add to it and thus create more anger) and believe that they should be kept as a reminder of the folly such a of war, if not all war.

The interesting thing is, no German seems to regard it as controversial at all. We regard it as part of history, as a reminder to both sides, and move on.

Exaclty what I was looking for here, thanks Cabra.

Look, I've been doing a major work for extension history on a relatable topic to this, and this really interests me.

I'll be brief and accept criticism: I believe that the monuments should stay, more as a reminder of the end of such a costly war, rather than a symbol of "Who won" over an otherwise 'evil' regime. After reading all of what you here said, I know that the monument is REALLY controversial (and I'm sorry to add to it and thus create more anger) and believe that they should be kept as a reminder of the folly such a of war, if not all war.Funny thing is, its mainly non-Germans arguing against it.

curious..
what about this monument? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_Polish_Soldiers_and_German_Anti-Fascists)

Also those previous memorials seem to comemorate the end of Nazi Germany and all the soviet soldiers that died during the war. NOT the glorious invasion and deaths of the german people.

curious..
what about this monument? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_Polish_Soldiers_and_German_Anti-Fascists)

Also those previous memorials seem to comemorate the end of Nazi Germany and all the soviet soldiers that died during the war. NOT the glorious invasion and deaths of the german people.

That's not much better. The Poles can build their own memorials on their own land.

That's not much better. The Poles can build their own memorials on their own land.It isn't just for the Poles, silly. And you can be my guest and start bitching about memorials that are built in your own country.

It isn't just for the Poles, silly. And you can be my guest and start bitching about memorials that are built in your own country.

What, and the German "Resistance"?

Just some random quotes on the topic. Take them as you will.

"War gives the right to the conquerors to impose any condition they please upon the vanquished." Julius Caesar

"To call war the soil of courage and virtue is like calling debauchery the soil of love." George Santayana

"Patriotism corrupts history." Goethe

And a couple quotes entirely off-topic.

"When dealing with Canadians, it is advantageous to seem to be negotiating from a position of weakness, for when faced with an abject opponent, they become concession-happy and will accede to almost anything." British Diplomat, Alleyne Fitzherbert

"I love my country far too much to be a nationalist." Unknown

"What is patriotism but the love of the good things we ate in our childhood?" Lin Yutang

What, and the German "Resistance"?There's plenty of dead Germans that were in resistance movements. Who do you think the Nazis filled Dachau and Sachsenhausen with at first?
There was a lot of German resistance from different parts of society. None of them were successful in bringing down Hitler, which is probably why only a few get mentioned in most History textbooks. Perhaps the 20th of July rings a bell, but I doubt you've heard of the Kreisauer Kreis before...

No they don't.

There's plenty of dead Germans that were in resistance movements. Who do you think the Nazis filled Dachau and Sachsenhausen with at first?
There was a lot of German resistance from different parts of society. None of them were successful in bringing down Hitler, which is probably why only a few get mentioned in most History textbooks. Perhaps the 20th of July rings a bell, but I doubt you've heard of the Kreisauer Kreis before...

thank you for saving me the hassle of typing :)

Oh, come on. I feel bad enough that I missed out on the new troll in the ATTN thread. Don't spoil the fun :(
Oh, you really think it's gonna keep G.A. from making another stupid thread about Germany? Don't believe it'll happen. Although, one can still hope, right?

Oh, you really think it's gonna keep G.A. from making another stupid thread about Germany? Don't believe it'll happen. Although, one can still hope, right?Hope's shards are razor sharp! :D

There's plenty of dead Germans that were in resistance movements. Who do you think the Nazis filled Dachau and Sachsenhausen with at first?
There was a lot of German resistance from different parts of society. None of them were successful in bringing down Hitler, which is probably why only a few get mentioned in most History textbooks. Perhaps the 20th of July rings a bell, but I doubt you've heard of the Kreisauer Kreis before...

Heck, you didn't have to be in a resistance to get killed as a German - if you were a Socialist, that was enough.

I don't believe that a lot of people understand the atmosphere of fear and terror that was in place at the time. Simple nonconformity could be a ticket to the camps.

What, and the German "Resistance"?

Yes, the Resistance. Brave people like the Eidelweiss Pirates and Count von Stauffenberg. People unafraid to stand up against the tyranny of the Nazi government and try and kill Hitler and his cronies.

Heck, you didn't have to be in a resistance to get killed as a German - if you were a Socialist, that was enough.

I don't believe that a lot of people understand the atmosphere of fear and terror that was in place at the time. Simple nonconformity could be a ticket to the camps.I know. It's lovely that you could get incarcerated for being a painter on a day that someone painted "Down with Hitler" on a wall or because your boss reported you as "Unwilling to work" or "Asocial". It took a lot of guts for those that were in the German resistance.

You haven't answered my point yet. The Soviets had over ten million military dead (just looked it up). They would have obviously fielded many more who survived. The figure given was two million women raped. Unless ten is more than two, I'm not quite sure how a majority of Soviet soldiers were rapists. But I shouldn't expect an answer, should I? What with all the flaming and comparing everyone to mass murderers?

Most invading Soviet forces participated in the battle of Berlin. And the stregth was 2.5 million.

Most invading Soviet forces participated in the battle of Berlin. And the stregth was 2.5 million.

If you take into account that the Soviet Army was around 20 Million'ish men...

Actually, I would like to hear K-P and some of his mates to tell me what they think of this picture:

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/418010-willybrandtjpg.jpg

In Germany this is generally regarded as a major moment in the development of the Federal Republic. Previous to this, people blocked out what happened, from the memories, from the schools, from everything.
That the Chancellor himself would fall on his knees, more or less begging for forgiveness both from the dead and from those who were still alive, was quite a statement.

But what do you people think?

Yes, the Resistance. Brave people like the Eidelweiss Pirates and Count von Stauffenberg. People unafraid to stand up against the tyranny of the Nazi government and try and kill Hitler and his cronies.
And Goring's brother too. A new book came out there recently delving into the relationship between them: One, a high ranking Nazi and avid supporter of Hitler. The other, a key member of the resistance and of smuggling people out of Germany to saves their lives. Apparently, G. covered up for his brother on a few occasions he was caught red handed.

Enthralling stuff that.

Actually, I would like to hear K-P and some of his mates to tell me what they think of this picture:

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/418010-willybrandtjpg.jpg

In Germany this is generally regarded as a major moment in the development of the Federal Republic. Previous to this, people blocked out what happened, from the memories, from the schools, from everything.
That the Chancellor himself would fall on his knees, more or less begging for forgiveness both from the dead and from those who were still alive, was quite a statement.

But what do you people think?

Among other things, I'm thinking soviets(russians now) didnt return any apology. Actually some of their veterans still gloat of their rapes, being proud of the children they made women to give birth. What do you think of this, Cabra West, Whereyouthinkgoing (only german NSG women I know)?


The subject of the Red Army's mass rapes in Germany has been so repressed in Russia that even today veterans refuse to acknowledge what really happened. The handful prepared to speak openly, however, are totally unrepentant. "They all lifted their skirts for us and lay on the bed," said the leader of one tank company. He even went on to boast that "two million of our children were born" in Germany.

The capacity of Soviet officers to convince themselves that most of the victims were either happy with their fate, or at least accepted that it was their turn to suffer after what the Wehrmacht had done in Russia, is striking. "Our fellows were so sex-starved," a Soviet major told a British journalist at the time, "that they often raped old women of sixty, seventy or even eighty - much to these grandmothers' surprise, if not downright delight."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...707835,00.html

I'm sure some 60 year old rape survivor should have felt wonderful when she heard this. (Is there anyone who cant comprehend the sarcasm?)

Among other things, I'm thinking soviets(russians now) didnt return any apology.
Your ability to move straight past a point without even acknowledging that it exists is quite impressive.

So, how many memorials to German soldiers are in Moscow?

There aren't any. But then again, the Germans never reached Moscow, did they?

Your ability to move straight past a point without even acknowledging that it exists is quite impressive.

You and I debating...How pointless...

Yes, the Resistance. Brave people like the Eidelweiss Pirates and Count von Stauffenberg. People unafraid to stand up against the tyranny of the Nazi government and try and kill Hitler and his cronies.

And then Rommel had to take the cap, too. :(

You and I debating...How pointless...
Hey, I have (or used to have) a great-aunt who was raped by the Russians, she was like 17 or something. I don't approve of it in any way.

But I'm not going to go down the road of excusing what happened before by talking about what happened afterwards. I think I gave you enough reasoning before to make you acknowledge that quite a few Russian women didn't have it any better (indeed, what is worse - being raped or being killed?), aside from the millions from all over Europe which were forced into prostitution by the Germans.

None of the German citizens on this thread have had any problems with the monuments. Some of them were in West Berlin the whole time, and people still chose to leave them there, even when the Soviets were blockading the city.

They don't represent the great Soviet soldier, even if the writing on them says so. Cultural artifacts like these are always open to interpretation, and these days they are seen as powerful reminders of the terror of war, and that's why they are there.

It must be difficult for you and many others around the world (and I acknowledge that freely and don't blame anyone for it) that there is no bad feelings anymore because of the war. Most other nations that had a war at some point in time will still have issues and problems with each other, but 60 years after the most gigantic slaughter in history, at least on one side the issue has been dealt with and the right conclusions have been drawn. The other side still uses the war at times for political purposes, as a metaphor and a story of heroism (which I find abhorrent)...but this is largely an abstract war that only ever took place in the annals of the Soviet Union. If you ask the actual veterans away from the big celebrations and the propaganda (like some of the Guido Knopp documentaries have), the Soviet soldiers are just like the German ones. It was the worst experience of their lives, and they wish that it will never happen again.

Who raped whom and who did what to whose civilians is of no consequence anymore. It really isn't.

Hey, I have (or used to have) a great-aunt who was raped by the Russians, she was like 17 or something. I don't approve of it in any way.

But I'm not going to go down the road of excusing what happened before by talking about what happened afterwards. I think I gave you enough reasoning before to make you acknowledge that quite a few Russian women didn't have it any better (indeed, what is worse - being raped or being killed?), aside from the millions from all over Europe which were forced into prostitution by the Germans.

None of the German citizens on this thread have had any problems with the monuments. Some of them were in West Berlin the whole time, and people still chose to leave them there, even when the Soviets were blockading the city.

They don't represent the great Soviet soldier, even if the writing on them says so. Cultural artifacts like these are always open to interpretation, and these days they are seen as powerful reminders of the terror of war, and that's why they are there.

It must be difficult for you and many others around the world (and I acknowledge that freely and don't blame anyone for it) that there is no bad feelings anymore because of the war. Most other nations that had a war at some point in time will still have issues and problems with each other, but 60 years after the most gigantic slaughter in history, at least on one side the issue has been dealt with and the right conclusions have been drawn. The other side still uses the war at times for political purposes, as a metaphor and a story of heroism (which I find abhorrent)...but this is largely an abstract war that only ever took place in the annals of the Soviet Union. If you ask the actual veterans away from the big celebrations and the propaganda (like some of the Guido Knopp documentaries have), the Soviet soldiers are just like the German ones. It was the worst experience of their lives, and they wish that it will never happen again.



Pressing Russians for some acknowledgement of their mistakes instead of flamboyantly celebrating their "liberation" in WW2 isnt excusing Nazi crimes. There is no way to excuse it, it's been acknowledged millions of times, apologized and reparated for. There is not even a 1 mm room for any more acknowledgment from the German side.


Who raped whom and who did what to whose civilians is of no consequence anymore. It really isn't.

Ok I hope your great-aunt didnt read that BBC article. I hardly think that she'd be amused by the thinking of Russian veterans. But who am I to speculate? She might be like you and I dont understand reactions of people like you. Yeah, it was 70 years ago and you werent involved so it's hardly a sleep loosing matter. However, being ok and actually supportive of existance of these monuments honouring those soldiers? I dont understand and I dont think I will...

You and I debating...How pointless...

This seems to be the case with you and anyone who disagrees with you. Ever wonder why that is?

This seems to be the case with you and anyone who disagrees with you. Ever wonder why that is?

Because he's right, obviously. *snicker*

Actually, I would like to hear K-P and some of his mates to tell me what they think of this picture:

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/418010-willybrandtjpg.jpg

In Germany this is generally regarded as a major moment in the development of the Federal Republic. Previous to this, people blocked out what happened, from the memories, from the schools, from everything.
That the Chancellor himself would fall on his knees, more or less begging for forgiveness both from the dead and from those who were still alive, was quite a statement.

But what do you people think?

German owes nothing to anybody. It was a mistake. It allowed the world to pile guilt on Germany for the next thousand years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Tiergarten%29

Considering the crimes of the Soviets against the German people and other Europeans, should those statues remain in Germany? Especially considering what they say. It would be akin to having statues of Union soldiers in Texas, saying "Dedicated to the brave Northern troops who died fighting the Southern scum."

Why not? There are still standing Japanese monuments in the Hawaiian Islands dating from WW 2. I know. I saw one near Captain Cook, HI. Though I wouldn't expect the Germans to maintain any of the memorials or monuments. God knows the one monument that I saw was in an overgrown field, obviously forgotten.

German owes nothing to anybody. It was a mistake.
What was?

It allowed the world to pile guilt on Germany for the next thousand years.
Who's piling?

Yes, the Resistance. Brave people like the Eidelweiss Pirates and Count von Stauffenberg. People unafraid to stand up against the tyranny of the Nazi government and try and kill Hitler and his cronies.

I'd be careful of quoting Graf Stauffenberg here... he was a convinced Nazi. He just correctly assumed that Hitler would be the death of the Nationalsozialisum in Germany if he stayed in office and command.

Among other things, I'm thinking soviets(russians now) didnt return any apology. Actually some of their veterans still gloat of their rapes, being proud of the children they made women to give birth. What do you think of this, Cabra West, Whereyouthinkgoing (only german NSG women I know)?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...707835,00.html

I'm sure some 60 year old rape survivor should have felt wonderful when she heard this. (Is there anyone who cant comprehend the sarcasm?)

My grandfather was proud to have fought and killed for Hitler to his dying day 2 years ago. He actually bragged about some valuable stuff (a set of silver cutlery, a chandelier of Murano crystal, several paintings, a mink coat my grandmother still wears to church...) he managed to bribe out of some Jews from my home town (among them one local hero, a lawyer who tried to work against the German government and for the Jewish community) for getting them passage to America. Which, he would tell us with a wink, most of them never even got.
When I once asked him how he could do that, he told me they wouldn't have needed the stuff anymore anyway, considering where they were going.

How do you think a Holocaust survivor will feel about that?

The Russians have their history to work up, that's up to them. If they feel proud about it, there's no way I can change that, much as I would like to confront them with it.
It's rather pointless to try and rationalise or argue with foolish old men who take pride in what they see as the accomplishments of their youth.

Ok I hope your great-aunt didnt read that BBC article. I hardly think that she'd be amused by the thinking of Russian veterans. But who am I to speculate? She might be like you and I dont understand reactions of people like you. Yeah, it was 70 years ago and you werent involved so it's hardly a sleep loosing matter. However, being ok and actually supportive of existance of these monuments honouring those soldiers? I dont understand and I dont think I will...

If his great-aunt is still alive, she too will have found a way of coping with the past.

I'm not trying to excuse the rapes, don't get me wrong there. But if we were to take down all monuments dedicated to armies whose soldiers commited rape, we had better take down all war memorials worldwide.

The Russians have their history to work up, that's up to them. If they feel proud about it, there's no way I can change that, much as I would like to confront them with it.
It's rather pointless to try and rationalise or argue with foolish old men who take pride in what they see as the accomplishments of their youth.

It is pointless to argue with someone who's wrong by default.

I'm not trying to excuse the rapes, don't get me wrong there. But if we were to take down all monuments dedicated to armies whose soldiers commited rape, we had better take down all war memorials worldwide.

Fine with me.

It is pointless to argue with someone who's wrong by default.

Nobody's wrong by default, not even you, honey :)

We are having this discussion why? Do the Germans seem to mind? No? Then why bother? Memorials are for those who died fighting, many of them forced into action by thier superiors, many who never returned home.

The average person, in my expirence, will lie, cheat and do a lot of questionable things if they think they can get with it. Now in a huge army, you are going to get some undesriables and with the thirst for revenge and the thought that they could get away with it, it isn't suprising other troops joined in.

However many Russian soldiers died without raping, perhaps they belived in Communisim, perhaps not. The mmeorials may sometimes become a politcal point but they are there to honour the fallen, to remind us of the cost of war and what must never happen again. I am glad that the Germans have the good grace to allow these memorials to the dead and thank them for it.

Perhaps we should take down all memorials but I think we do need to be reminded that war is not fun and games, it is where young men die due to old mens wars and that we should never allow it to happen again. It will happen again becuase of things like oil but at least may be remembered

Pressing Russians for some acknowledgement of their mistakes instead of flamboyantly celebrating their "liberation" in WW2 isnt excusing Nazi crimes. There is no way to excuse it, it's been acknowledged millions of times, apologized and reparated for. There is not even a 1 mm room for any more acknowledgment from the German side.

Ok I hope your great-aunt didnt read that BBC article. I hardly think that she'd be amused by the thinking of Russian veterans. But who am I to speculate? She might be like you and I dont understand reactions of people like you. Yeah, it was 70 years ago and you werent involved so it's hardly a sleep loosing matter. However, being ok and actually supportive of existance of these monuments honouring those soldiers? I dont understand and I dont think I will...

What would an apology acomplish? Why should we stop there? Shouldn't they aplogise for Katyn? Should we consider the fact the USSR is dead and having Putin aplogise doesn't mean anything to the former USSR.

You seem to have the fantasy of war based on virture. It doesn't happen. It sounds good in books and legonds; but it just doesn't happen. Rape of the enemy has gone on well since the concept of war was created.

There are far more pressing things for Germany and Russia to worry about.

The people affected by it have moved on.

Nobody's wrong by default, not even you, honey :)

WRONG!

Ask any married man. :D

SHOULD SOVIET WAR MONUMENTS IN GERMANY BE TAKEN DOWN?

I say no, because they are excellant historical monuments to the Soviet Occupation. It gives a hint of what things were like, how the Soviets felt they were better thean everyone, and how the civilians of East Germany were treated. I think these are glorious markers to a falsely glorious history. These are fantastic pieces that wil mean a lot in generations to come as they can see what their grandparents were forced to endure, and how Germany has majestically re-emerged from the shadows of its past.

SHOULD SOVIET WAR MONUMENTS IN GERMANY BE TAKEN DOWN?

I say no, because they are excellant historical monuments to the Soviet Occupation. It gives a hint of what things were like, how the Soviets felt they were better thean everyone, and how the civilians of East Germany were treated. I think these are glorious markers to a falsely glorious history. These are fantastic pieces that wil mean a lot in generations to come as they can see what their grandparents were forced to endure, and how Germany has majestically re-emerged from the shadows of its past.

Did you actually READ the original post? This thread is about a Sovjet war memorial in West Berlin... not about one in the East.

And as for "majestically re-emerged".... *lol Nice bit of rethoric.

I'd be careful of quoting Graf Stauffenberg here... he was a convinced Nazi. He just correctly assumed that Hitler would be the death of the Nationalsozialisum in Germany if he stayed in office and command.

Yes! I knew that Wikipedia article hadn't been wrong! I can't thank you enough, CW. I always thought he was an anti-Nazi (as such), but when I read the wikipedia article it said he was a Nazi through and through. But when I went back to it to refer to it, it had been changed by someone.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

SHOULD SOVIET WAR MONUMENTS IN GERMANY BE TAKEN DOWN?

I say no, because they are excellant historical monuments to the Soviet Occupation. It gives a hint of what things were like, how the Soviets felt they were better thean everyone, and how the civilians of East Germany were treated. I think these are glorious markers to a falsely glorious history. These are fantastic pieces that wil mean a lot in generations to come as they can see what their grandparents were forced to endure, and how Germany has majestically re-emerged from the shadows of its past.West Berlin was only occupied by the soviets for a very short time. What were my grandparents forced to endure? From your words, it sounds a lot worse than from there's or any other East Germans I know for that matter.

Yes! I knew that Wikipedia article hadn't been wrong! I can't thank you enough, CW. I always thought he was an anti-Nazi (as such), but when I read the wikipedia article it said he was a Nazi through and through. But when I went back to it to refer to it, it had been changed by someone.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.It's hard to say, actually. Stauffenberg was indeed a firm believer in Hitler and his cause in the beginning when things were going well. War on the Eastern Front and in Africa changed his mind. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse him of being a Nazi in the end.

all this talk of WWII and raping and no one bothered to mention the mass raping of Asia by the Japanese. The comfort camps which were basically camps with women who were forced to have sex with the passing Japanese soldiers. I figured GA would have touched on this by now to help pass the blame from his beloved nazi's but then again japan and germany were allied.. If you guys want to discuss real brutality talk about these things instead of the same old russian-german stuff.

aaaaaaaaaaaaand the atomic bombs were hardly war crimes. If the japanese army hadn't previously showed its ability to be absoutly brutal, and their dogged determination in combat and refusal to surrender, the bombs may not have been used. They quite simply had to be though.

all this talk of WWII and raping and no one bothered to mention the mass raping of Asia by the Japanese. The comfort camps which were basically camps with women who were forced to have sex with the passing Japanese soldiers. I figured GA would have touched on this by now to help pass the blame from his beloved nazi's but then again japan and germany were allied.. If you guys want to discuss real brutality talk about these things instead of the same old russian-german stuff.

aaaaaaaaaaaaand the atomic bombs were hardly war crimes. If the japanese army hadn't previously showed its ability to be absoutly brutal, and their dogged determination in combat and refusal to surrender, the bombs may not have been used. They quite simply had to be though.

Boy, people just love to assume that I'm a Nazi. And there are no Japanese memorials in China. There's a war shrine in Japan, but they can do whatever the hell they want in their own country.

I wouldn't go so far as to accuse him of being a Nazi in the end.
I always put him in the "authoritarian militarist" column, rather than the outright Nazi-column.

I mean, if he really was a full-on Nazi, the Bundeswehr couldn't keep coming back to him as one of the major figures of reference (think of the PR). I'm sure someone would have told them, and they probably have their own historians as well. Not to forget that people still celebrate him every year.

http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd4w39bQESUGYpvqRaGKGbn4IsSB9b31fj_zcVP0A_YLc0IhyR0dFALNCMzY!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfQV8xUUw!?yw_contentURL=/C1256EF4002AED30/N264HLMA939MMISDE/content.jsp

I always put him in the "authoritarian militarist" column, rather than the outright Nazi-column.

I mean, if he really was a full-on Nazi, the Bundeswehr couldn't keep coming back to him as one of the major figures of reference (think of the PR). I'm sure someone would have told them, and they probably have their own historians as well. Not to forget that people still celebrate him every year.

http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd4w39bQESUGYpvqRaGKGbn4IsSB9b31fj_zcVP0A_YLc0IhyR0dFALNCMzY!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfQV8xUUw!?yw_contentURL=/C1256EF4002AED30/N264HLMA939MMISDE/content.jsp

Oh, well. You live, you learn. I apologise for the error - it's nice to learn something every day.

Hell yes! Without those Russian soldiers, Nazis would have overrun Europe. No Cold War between East and West here... the West would be Nazi-ified for decades. And that's a worse alternative is it not?

(echo... echo... echo...)
No, the development of the Atomic bomb was very near before the fall of the third reich. We could have developed hundreds of them and crippling the germans and the russians. But if we were at war with Russia we'd still win, because then we'd also have the resistance forces.

It's better to take things out at the start before the sappling grows more deadlier. Like what we're doing in the middle-east, but Bush is too weak in my opinion, we need another Eisenhower or fuckin Truman, or hell a Patton in charge.

We could have developed hundreds of them and crippling the germans and the russians.
That would've taken some years (http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nwhdet.html) at that time. Quite aside from the problems associated with delivering the bombs (without ICBMs) against an enemy with a well-developed air force of interceptors.

I maintain that nuclear weapons weren't able to win wars until perhaps the mid-50s or later.

It's hard to say, actually. Stauffenberg was indeed a firm believer in Hitler and his cause in the beginning when things were going well. War on the Eastern Front and in Africa changed his mind. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse him of being a Nazi in the end.

He was in fact a strong supporter of the Nazi ideology. As far as I know the reason for tying to assasinate Hitler (and members of his general staff) was that he saw that they were incapable of winning the war. His plans were to put able Nazi generals at the top of the government....

yes

His plans were to put able Nazi generals at the top of the government....
Well, we know pretty well who it would have been.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_von_Witzleben
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Beck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_Mertz_von_Quirnheim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Goerdeler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Olbricht
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl-Heinrich_von_St%C3%BClpnagel

Make up your own mind, but I don't think these guys were Nazis. Wehrmacht generals, yes. Democratic, no. But not Nazis.

Well, we know pretty well who it would have been.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_von_Witzleben
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Beck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_Mertz_von_Quirnheim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Goerdeler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Olbricht
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl-Heinrich_von_St%C3%BClpnagel

Make up your own mind, but I don't think these guys were Nazis. Wehrmacht generals, yes. Democratic, no. But not Nazis.

Well, it's hard to say 100% in retrospect. I know from talks with his widow that he did in fact support the racial theories of the Nazi regime and the war as such. If he would have opted for the same amount of cruelty is really hard to tell...

German owes nothing to anybody. It was a mistake. It allowed the world to pile guilt on Germany for the next thousand years.

Guilt? What guilt? The guilt for believing in eugenics and that Germans were the "Master Race", the guilt for starting the biggest bloodbath of the 20th century, or the guilt for setting up death factories all over Europe? The guilt of invading peaceful neighbors? :rolleyes:

Mind you, I don't blame modern Germans for any of these things. Just wannabe fascist apologists like you.

Greater Allmenia..... You do not and have never actually LIVED in Germany, you do not hold German citizenship, stop getting overly emotional and stop whining about your German heritage. Leave if up to THE REAL GERMANS to decide if they want to keep the statue or not. Also, of course there are no war memorials for German Troops in Russia, THEY LOST DUMBASS, if they had won, there probably would have been. All countries troops in WW2 raped some women. Not just Russia, quite a few Nazis commited war crimes also....cough holocouast.... cough...[/SIZE]

:p

Well, it's hard to say 100% in retrospect. I know from talks with his widow that he did in fact support the racial theories of the Nazi regime and the war as such. If he would have opted for the same amount of cruelty is really hard to tell...Well, the plan was to install a civilian government immediatly afterwards. Losing an eye and a hand could well have led to losing faith in a flawed ideology, no? ;)

Mind you, I don't blame modern Germans for any of these things. Just wannabe fascist apologists like you.

Prove that I'm a Nazi, or shut the fuck up.

Prove that I'm a Nazi, or shut the fuck up.

He didn't say you were a Nazi, he said you were a fascist apologist. You can be a fascist without being a Nazi.

Although I agree with you to a point, the "zOmg j00 nazi!11" stuff is very silly.

Boy, people just love to assume that I'm a Nazi. And there are no Japanese memorials in China. There's a war shrine in Japan, but they can do whatever the hell they want in their own country.
And yet you start threads about Germany as if we couldn't decide what the hell we want in our country. And if it's just leaving the Soviet war memorials the way they are. Interesting, very interesting. And very telling indeed.

Prove that I'm a Nazi, or shut the fuck up.

As was pointed out, I didn't call you a Nazi. I called you a wannabe fascist apologist.

As for proof, I'll point to just about every post you've had in 38 pages on the thread, plus that you actually care about a war memorial in a country you're not living in and are not a citizen of.

As for STFU, I think that given your lack of ability to state a single reason as to WHY the memorial should be taken down other than that you don't like it says it all.

As was pointed out, I didn't call you a Nazi. I called you a wannabe fascist apologist.

There's a difference?

As for STFU, I think that given your lack of ability to state a single reason as to WHY the memorial should be taken down other than that you don't like it says it all.

Because they're offensive. And don't bother asking today's Germans about it, they're deluded. Given the opportunity, they'd've marched into Berlin alongside the Soviets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Tiergarten%29

Considering the crimes of the Soviets against the German people and other Europeans, should those statues remain in Germany? Especially considering what they say. It would be akin to having statues of Union soldiers in Texas, saying "Dedicated to the brave Northern troops who died fighting the Southern scum."
Of course it belongs there. Who lost the bloody war, anyway?

There's a difference?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

And don't bother asking today's Germans about it, they're deluded. Given the opportunity, they'd've marched into Berlin alongside the Soviets.

More bullshit designed purely to piss people off. You sure do love waving the "hay guyz give me attention" flag. What a dumb kid.

And don't bother asking today's Germans about it, they're deluded.

OK then, who would YOU ask instead of "today's deluded Germans"?

There's a difference?



Because they're offensive. And don't bother asking today's Germans about it, they're deluded. Given the opportunity, they'd've marched into Berlin alongside the Soviets.

Thank you for proving my points. I'm done here.

Because they're offensive. And don't bother asking today's Germans about it, they're deluded. Given the opportunity, they'd've marched into Berlin alongside the Soviets.Damnit! We're so blinded by the fact that we don't live on the other side of the planet from where the monuments are and the fact that some of us actually have relatives still living today that endured what the Russians did in East Germany! We obviously lack "distance" to the topic; we're too involved, since we even speak the local language. How could we have been so blind to the obvious truth?!

There's a difference?



Because they're offensive. And don't bother asking today's Germans about it, they're deluded. Given the opportunity, they'd've marched into Berlin alongside the Soviets.

Okay... so, they're offensive. If they don't offend today's Germans, who do they offend?