NationStates Jolt Archive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Tiergarten%29

Considering the crimes of the Soviets against the German people and other Europeans, should those statues remain in Germany? Especially considering what they say. It would be akin to having statues of Union soldiers in Texas, saying "Dedicated to the brave Northern troops who died fighting the Southern scum."

Hell yes! Without those Russian soldiers, Nazis would have overrun Europe. No Cold War between East and West here... the West would be Nazi-ified for decades. And that's a worse alternative is it not?

(echo... echo... echo...)

Hell yes! Without those Russian soldiers, Nazis would have overrun Europe. No Cold War between East and West here... the West would be Nazi-ified for decades. And that's a worse alternative is it not?

(echo... echo... echo...)

Regardless, do SOVIET memorials have a place in GERMANY? I'm not sure, but I don't think that the Americans forcibly put up any "We kicked your ass" statues in Japan.

Regardless, do SOVIET memorials have a place in GERMANY? I'm not sure, but I don't think that the Americans forcibly put up any "We kicked your ass" statues in Japan.
We did however print some kick ass t-shirts...

EDIT: Here Here we go. http://www.campingsurvival.com/madinaminjap.html

Regardless, do SOVIET memorials have a place in GERMANY? I'm not sure, but I don't think that the Americans forcibly put up any "We kicked your ass" statues in Japan.

Statues? Well, no. Government, yes. I think that's rather worse than some hunk of metal.

However, I must wonder if you would also support removing ancient ROMAN roads from GERMANY? I mean, they got there because of conquest and merciless warfare and were a, I say rather phallic symbol of Roman supremacy to the 'barbarian' Germanic tribes...

...or is maybe history not something to tear down just because of national pride?

Statues? Well, no. Government, yes. I think that's rather worse than some hunk of metal.

However, I must wonder if you would also support removing ancient ROMAN roads from GERMANY? I mean, they got there because of conquest and merciless warfare and were a, I say rather phallic symbol of Roman supremacy to the 'barbarian' Germanic tribes...

...or is maybe history not something to tear down just because of national pride?

Despite the fact that the Romans made very little inroad into Germany? They never got past the Rhine.

And Roman roads don't say "We raped 2000000 woman and we're proud of it!"

There's plenty of history. If you want history, you've got the fucking brick farm over near the gate.

...or is maybe history not something to tear down just because of national pride?
Spot on.

There is a similar argument going on in the UK, over whether or not to start renaming all the street names and place names we have, commemorating all the shit that the British Empire inflicted on others over the course of its existence. And as newspaper columnists pointed out, cities and nations are evolving entities, and airbrushing out the traces that the course of history has left behind, is a futile and shallow enterprise.

Despite the fact that the Romans made very little inroad into Germany? They never got past the Rhine.


How much or how little their 'statue' covered German territory is irrelevant to the question.


And Roman roads don't say "We raped 2000000 woman and we're proud of it!"

Interestingly, neither do the statues.

Spot on.

There is a similar argument going on in the UK, over whether or not to start renaming all the street names and place names we have, commemorating all the shit that the British Empire inflicted on others over the course of its existence. And as newspaper columnists pointed out, cities and nations are evolving entities, and airbrushing out the traces that the course of history has left behind, is a futile and shallow enterprise.

There's a difference between streets named after slave traders, who were, back then, just businessmen, and statues that celebrate rapists.

Interestingly, neither do the statues.

All Soviet troops were rapists. They celebrate Soviet troops.

Ok, so, would you mind if I build a statue in New York dedicated to "the brave islamic warriors who defend themselved by killing 3000 American fascist pigs"? I think you would.

There's a difference between streets named after slave traders, who were, back then, just businessmen, and statues that celebrate rapists.

Of course there's a difference - one offends you personally, the other does not.

(I find it interesting how you dismiss slave traders as "just businessmen." I doubt you'd find it acceptable to dismiss those soldiers as "back then, just soldiers.")

Of course there's a difference - one offends you personally, the other does not.

(I find it interesting how you dismiss slave traders as "just businessmen." I doubt you'd find it acceptable to dismiss those soldiers as "back then, just soldiers.")

Slave trade was legal back then. It was business. Rape is never part of a soldiers duty.

statues that celebrate rapists.
They don't. :rolleyes:

Hooray for xenophobic generalisations.

They don't. :rolleyes:

Hooray for xenophobic generalisations.

So what, all German soldiers were evil genocidal Nazis, but only a marginal fraction of Soviet grunts were rapists and criminals? Right...

Of course there's a difference - one offends you personally, the other does not.

(I find it interesting how you dismiss slave traders as "just businessmen." I doubt you'd find it acceptable to dismiss those soldiers as "back then, just soldiers.")
Maybe that is how he views the holocaust. Assuming he believes it took place at all.

So what, all German soldiers were evil genocidal Nazis, but only a marginal fraction of Soviet grunts were rapists and criminals? Right...
Actually, I believe most German soldiers weren't. But hey.

Actually, I believe most German soldiers weren't. But hey.

So, how many memorials to German soldiers are in Moscow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Tiergarten%29

Considering the crimes of the Soviets against the German people and other Europeans, should those statues remain in Germany? Especially considering what they say. It would be akin to having statues of Union soldiers in Texas, saying "Dedicated to the brave Northern troops who died fighting the Southern scum."
...except that no real battles were fought in Texas.
Regardless, do SOVIET memorials have a place in GERMANY? I'm not sure, but I don't think that the Americans forcibly put up any "We kicked your ass" statues in Japan.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that nuking an entire city (or two, for that matter) is a little more offensive and intrusive and forcible than a statue.

So, how many memorials to German soldiers are in Moscow?
Don't know. Only been there once. But there is one near Luxembourg, if I recall my European travels correctly.

Slave trade was legal back then. It was business. Rape is never part of a soldiers duty.

Har. Rape during war was legal back then. It was total war. See? I can do it too.

All Soviet troops were rapists.

False. You're just showing your ignorance here. You'll make any idiotic generalization, just because you're getting overly emotional about your "German" heritage which you take an obscene amount of pride in.

Ok, so, would you mind if I build a statue in New York dedicated to "the brave islamic warriors who defend themselved by killing 3000 American fascist pigs"? I think you would.

What has that got to do with anything? Whether I mind or not is irrelevant. We're not talking about building something new, we're talking about something already built and been standing around for decades.

But if you want to go build something like that, go ahead and see what happens. Get back to me in 50 years and we'll discuss what to do with whatever you build. Mmkay?

...except that no real battles were fought in Texas.

Fine, some city where the Confeds were crushed. As long as it's offensive.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that nuking an entire city (or two, for that matter) is a little more offensive and intrusive and forcible than a statue.

And you know what'd be even MORE offensive? Putting up statues in Hiroshima that say "Hey, we nuked this place! In your face, Japan!" That's basically what the statues in Berlin are saying.

All Soviet troops were rapists. They celebrate Soviet troops.

no broad generalisation here...

anyway, there are, probably, memorials for USA soldiers who died in Vietnam, and for German soldiers who died defending Omaha, Sabre, Gold, Juno, and that other beach and for a lot of soldiers who might or might not have been wrong, evil, on the wrong side of the war or anything else

You should remember that while the allies were going for liberation, the russians were going for revenge. Visit upon thine agressor a thousand times he did unto you. Should appeal to a lot of people here, right?

That doesnt make the rapes right, or forgivable, true, but what the monument also says is "we fought here too". With the enormous amount of Allied memorials, I imagine the Russians dont want us to forget that and they are right, in this case

Har. Rape during war was legal back then. It was total war. See? I can do it too.

No, I'm pretty sure they'd had a few Geneva Conventions by then.

False. You're just showing your ignorance here. You'll make any idiotic generalization, just because you're getting overly emotional about your "German" heritage which you take an obscene amount of pride in.

What ignorance? It would have taken a large number of Soviet grunts to commit that many crimes.

no broad generalisation here...

anyway, there are, probably, memorials for USA soldiers who died in Vietnam, and for German soldiers who died defending Omaha, Sabre, Gold, Juno, and that other beach and for a lot of soldiers who might or might not have been wrong, evil, on the wrong side of the war or anything else

You should remember that while the allies were going for liberation, the russians were going for revenge. Visit upon thine agressor a thousand times he did unto you. Should appeal to a lot of people here, right?

That doesnt make the rapes right, or forgivable, true, but what the monument also says is "we fought here too". With the enormous amount of Allied memorials, I imagine the Russians dont want us to forget that and they are right, in this case

Well they should build a bigger one, dedicated to the suffering of the German people during the war. 100 meters high, made of gold and Italian marble.

No, I'm pretty sure they'd had a few Geneva Conventions by then.

Very well, I'll use your defense/dismissal more exactly. "Capturing and selling human beings is not a businessman's duty."

What ignorance? It would have taken a large number of Soviet grunts to commit that many crimes.

You said "all," not "large number." = generalization, = ignorant if assumed true by you.

Your argument seems to be rapidly degenerating into a series of emotive statements whining about how Nazis get villified.

Very well, I'll use your defense/dismissal more exactly. "Capturing and selling human beings is not a businessman's duty."

It is if you're a slave trader. Back then, they were considered subhuman.

Ok, what about people like Salomon Morel? Do you believe they were justified in their actions?

...or is maybe history not something to tear down just because of national pride?

These are war memorials placed upon the defeated body of Germany whether Germany liked it at the time or not. These commemorate Russian losses but also they are meant to shame and humble Germans due to placement. They have served their purpose in that role Germany has changed and need not face shame from a war so long ago.

I have no opinion whether Germany should keep or remove these monuments. I have a strong opinion that this is something for only the German people to decide, and not for me the Russians or anyone else. By the same token any monument in Russia is the business of Russians and not the business of the Germans or anyone else.

It is if you're a slave trader. Back then, they were considered subhuman.

Okay, and it was a soldier's duty during WWII to be a brutal bastard when invading other countries. China, Japan, Soviets, Germans... always the enemy was considered subhuman.

Except it's a casual shrug for you when it comes to slave traders with that view... and a source of great angst when it came to soldiers in WWII with that view.

Because as I said, you can easily accept history as long as it doesn't offend you personally because of your own heritage. Me, I accept it all whether it offends me or not.


Ok, what about people like Salomon Morel? Do you believe they were justified in their actions?

You'll have to explain who that is and why its relevant.

These are war memorials placed upon the defeated body of Germany whether Germany liked it at the time or not.

Not too unlike Roman roads, designed to humble those they conquered with the might and ingeniousness of Rome. (As well as assist in quelling any uprisings, a thing which obviously those memorials do not do.)

I have no opinion whether Germany should keep or remove these monuments. I have a strong opinion that this is something for only the German people to decide, and not for me the Russians or anyone else. By the same token any monument in Russia is the business of Russians and not the business of the Germans or anyone else.

Of course. I don't think the sovereignty of Germany is being questioned in this topic.

Well they should build a bigger one, dedicated to the suffering of the German people during the war. 100 meters high, made of gold and Italian marble.

fine by me. Every other country who suffered in the war has similar memorials, so why not the germans?

an argument brought up too: germany doesnt have to keep being ashamed about that war. Well, if you arn't, then there is no problem with that memorial right?

In fact, why not adopt it yourself, change its meaning and make it a memorial to that suffering? all it would take is a few plaques in front of it. And as most germans know too, I hope, it is mostly a memorial to the atrocities of that war, right?

and indeed, german sovereignity is not in question. Our opinion was aked, we give it

The solution is obvious; You turn them into the centerpieces for skate parks. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Tiergarten%29

Considering the crimes of the Soviets against the German people and other Europeans, should those statues remain in Germany? Especially considering what they say. It would be akin to having statues of Union soldiers in Texas, saying "Dedicated to the brave Northern troops who died fighting the Southern scum."

They probably didn't have a place when they were put up. But they are I suppose historic and a reminder of the war. If its really offense to Germans then send the statue back to Russia where it can be housed there.

The solution is obvious; You turn them into the centerpieces for skate parks. :)

Or we can convert them into firing ranges.

They probably didn't have a place when they were put up. But they are I suppose historic and a reminder of the war. If its really offense to Germans then send the statue back to Russia where it can be housed there.

I'd rather have them melted down and the metals used to make G36s.

Or we can convert them into firing ranges.

Not fun enough. I want to see skateboards and bikes bouncing off the statues' heads. :)

Not fun enough. I want to see skateboards and bikes bouncing off the statues' heads. :)

I'd prefer something that stings. Like converting them into landmarks of Germany's economy and it's revival in the 50s and 60s. Like, something that says "Hey Russia! You devastated us in WWII, and now we have more MONEY that you! And you're all starving! And your leader is a dictator! Ha ha!"

I'd prefer something that stings. Like converting them into landmarks of Germany's economy and it's revival in the 50s and 60s. Like, something that says "Hey Russia! You devastated us in WWII, and now we have more MONEY that you! And you're all starving! And your leader is a dictator! Ha ha!"

Pie catapults. :)

Not too unlike Roman roads, designed to humble those they conquered with the might and ingeniousness of Rome. (As well as assist in quelling any uprisings, a thing which obviously those memorials do not do.)


No Roman roads were built for travel and not a sort victory symbol. You can tell this because the roads connect places which Romans wished to travel rather than spelling out PWNED in enormous latin letters on the landscape of regions which were conquered by Rome. I can save you the trouble of looking and assure you that Roman aquaducts in Germany also were built to carry water and not as monuments to Roman victory or the loss of Roman lives.

No Soviet war memorials should have a place in any country. The Soviets were barbaric savages and arch-criminals on par with National Socialists.

No Roman roads were built for travel and not a sort victory symbol. You can tell this because the roads connect places which Romans wished to travel rather than spelling out PWNED in enormous latin letters on the landscape of regions which were conquered by Rome. I can save you the trouble of looking and assure you that Roman aquaducts in Germany also were built to carry water and not as monuments to Roman victory or the loss of Roman lives.

Yeah. They were just basic infrastructure.

No Soviet war memorials should have a place in any country. The Soviets were barbaric savages and arch-criminals on par with National Socialists.

My sentiments exactly.

These are war memorials placed upon the defeated body of Germany whether Germany liked it at the time or not. These commemorate Russian losses but also they are meant to shame and humble Germans due to placement. They have served their purpose in that role Germany has changed and need not face shame from a war so long ago.

I have no opinion whether Germany should keep or remove these monuments. I have a strong opinion that this is something for only the German people to decide, and not for me the Russians or anyone else. By the same token any monument in Russia is the business of Russians and not the business of the Germans or anyone else.

Thank you. And speaking as a German who visited the Russian memorial in Berlin, I would like to keep it there.
It's part of German history, it's nothing that's shaming German people now, but it is a reminder. To both sides. It's a war memorial, and all such thing in all places need to be treated carefully, but I see no reason at all to remove it because some Australian objects to it....

They probably didn't have a place when they were put up. But they are I suppose historic and a reminder of the war. If its really offense to Germans then send the statue back to Russia where it can be housed there.

Never heard of any German who took offense with those things... apart from some Neo Nazi lunatics perhaps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Tiergarten%29

Considering the crimes of the Soviets against the German people and other Europeans, should those statues remain in Germany? Especially considering what they say. It would be akin to having statues of Union soldiers in Texas, saying "Dedicated to the brave Northern troops who died fighting the Southern scum."

Can Poland take down the concentration camps then? Considering the crimes of the Nazis against Poland and Europeans, should these camps remain in Poland? Auschwitz alone is a phallic symbol for the Germans saying "we killed 75.000 non-Jewish Poles here, and up to 200,000 at Warschau."

Auschwitz-Birkenau (Oświęcim, near Kraków)
Belzec (near the current Ukrainian border north-west of L'viv)
Kulmhof (Chełmno, between Warsaw and Poznań)
Majdanek (near Lublin)
Sobibór (south of Brest-Litovsk)
Treblinka (north-east of Warsaw)
Warschau (in Warsaw)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_concentration_camps_in_occupied_Poland_during_World_War_II


The memorials in Germany are a part of the war, and ergo history. They should stay, the same way that the Austrians are stuck with those 6 Nazi flak towers in Vienna or France is stuck with the Atlantic Wall.

No Soviet war memorials should have a place in any country. The Soviets were barbaric savages and arch-criminals on par with National Socialists.

You'd be amazed how easily the same thing can be said about ANY country from America to The Netherlands.

Britain needs to have a whip-round...

And build a 200-meter statue of Churchill giving Germany a good view of his middle fingers. A Fifty-foot platinum plaque would declare 'Two world wars, one world cup!'.

You'd be amazed how easily the same thing can be said about ANY country from America to The Netherlands.

Yeah, but most of those countries didn't spend their ENTIRE EXISTENCE as fucking savage totalarianists.

Can Poland take down the concentration camps then? Considering the crimes of the Nazis against Poland and Europeans, should these camps remain in Poland? Auschwitz alone is a phallic symbol for the Germans saying "we killed 75.000 non-Jewish Poles here, and up to 200,000 at Warschau."

Auschwitz-Birkenau (Oświęcim, near Kraków)
Belzec (near the current Ukrainian border north-west of L'viv)
Kulmhof (Chełmno, between Warsaw and Poznań)
Majdanek (near Lublin)
Sobibór (south of Brest-Litovsk)
Treblinka (north-east of Warsaw)
Warschau (in Warsaw)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_concentration_camps_in_occupied_Poland_during_World_War_II

Sure, go nuts. I'll help to burn them down.

Britain needs to have a whip-round...

And build a 200-meter statue of Churchill giving Germany a good view of his middle fingers. A Fifty-foot platinum plaque would declare 'Two world wars, one world cup!'.

Wow, because Britain has SUCH a huge role in winning WWII. Something along the lines of "Just hang in there until AMERICA ARRIVES! Yay!"

Yeah, but most of those countries didn't spend their ENTIRE EXISTENCE as fucking savage totalarianists.

Most of the time Germany has been an ultra-nationalist absolute monarchy with a laughable attempt at democracy.

I would like to note that when I said "Soviets" I meant the Soviet military, not the Soviet people.

Wow, because Britain has SUCH a huge role in WWII. Something along the lines of "Just hang in there until AMERICA ARRIVES! Yay!"

Let's see, our little Island nation, with less troops than the US could shake out of the pckets of some old jeans, held off the nazi war machine for an embarassing amount of time, kicked the collective asses of Rommel and his laughable Italian allies, played a major part in Italy, fought off the Japanese for another embarassing length of time... Yeah, it was ALL the yanks.

EDIT: and we survived the attempt of a silly little German to bomb our cities to rubble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Tiergarten%29

Considering the crimes of the Soviets against the German people and other Europeans, should those statues remain in Germany? Especially considering what they say. It would be akin to having statues of Union soldiers in Texas, saying "Dedicated to the brave Northern troops who died fighting the Southern scum."You are aware that the Soviet War memorial in Tiergarten is in WEST BERLIN, no?

Most of the time Germany has been an ultra-nationalist absolute monarchy with a laughable attempt at democracy.

Not for the last 57 years.

And absolute monarchy =/= totalarian savages. Unless you're being led by Tsar Nicholas II. He was hopeless.

Germany doesn't have the right to move any of those memorials until it wins a world war. :P

Not for the last 57 years.

And absolute monarchy =/= totalarian savages. Unless you're being led by Tsar Nicholas II. He was hopeless.

Does the last 57 years make up for all that other time?

I would like to note that when I said "Soviets" I meant the Soviet military, not the Soviet people.

I didn't. Fucking reds.

Let's see, our little Island nation, with less troops than the US could shake out of the pckets of some old jeans, held off the nazi war machine for an embarassing amount of time, kicked the collective asses of Rommel and his laughable Italian allies, played a major part in Italy, fought off the Japanese for another embarassing length of time... Yeah, it was ALL the yanks.
Even with uncle Sam trying to drag me back to flag waving, I gotta side with the Brit on this one. They did fricking amazing, I don't think they could of won, but I'd bet my salt they could of forced a stalemate away from their shores without our help.

I didn't. Fucking reds.

ZOMG COMYS R EBIL.

Let's see, our little Island nation, with less troops than the US could shake out of the pckets of some old jeans, held off the nazi war machine for an embarassing amount of time, kicked the collective asses of Rommel and his laughable Italian allies, played a major part in Italy, fought off the Japanese for another embarassing length of time... Yeah, it was ALL the yanks.

EDIT: and we survived the attempt of a silly little German to bomb our cities to rubble.

Germany's airforce wasn't that great. You might as well boast of surviving the 1979 paper airplace scare.

Yeah, but most of those countries didn't spend their ENTIRE EXISTENCE as fucking savage totalarianists.

Explain that to (say) a Cherokee in New Jersey or a Bokongo in Kinshasa (formerly Léopoldville)...

Germany doesn't have the right to move any of those memorials until it wins a world war. :P

And Britain doesn't have the right to train medical professionals until you discover dentistry.

Can Poland take down the concentration camps then? Considering the crimes of the Nazis against Poland and Europeans, should these camps remain in Poland? Auschwitz alone is a phallic symbol for the Germans saying "we killed 75.000 non-Jewish Poles here, and up to 200,000 at Warschau."

Auschwitz-Birkenau (Oświęcim, near Kraków)
Belzec (near the current Ukrainian border north-west of L'viv)
Kulmhof (Chełmno, between Warsaw and Poznań)
Majdanek (near Lublin)
Sobibór (south of Brest-Litovsk)
Treblinka (north-east of Warsaw)
Warschau (in Warsaw)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_concentration_camps_in_occupied_Poland_during_World_War_II


The memorials in Germany are a part of the war, and ergo history. They should stay, the same way that the Austrians are stuck with those 6 Nazi flak towers in Vienna or France is stuck with the Atlantic Wall.
For pur generations' sakes, they should all be surrpunded by hure signs that say "The Holocaust did too happen. So did WWII. Ha ha. Yopu revisionists are wrong. Now go hate unproNazi stuff somewhere else."

Germany's airforce wasn't that great. You might as well boast of surviving the 1979 paper airplace scare.

ROFL. The RAF consisted of a severely understrength force scraped together from what pilots we got back from Dunkirk and whoever we could train quickly. The Luftwaffe outnumbered us greatly and had more experienced pilots. And we PWNED GERMANY IN THE ASS.

Yeah, but most of those countries didn't spend their ENTIRE EXISTENCE as fucking savage totalarianists.

So? There are memorials to totalitarian regimes and wars all over Europe. Why not in Germany?
Who ar you to tell us what we should be ashamed of and what we should be proud of in the first place???

Explain that to (say) a Cherokee in New Jersey or a Bokongo in Kinshasa (formerly Léopoldville)...

Boy, because that all cancels out the fact that America had one of the modern world's earliest democracies.

For pur generations' sakes, they should all be surrpunded by hure signs that say "The Holocaust did too happen. So did WWII. Ha ha. Yopu revisionists are wrong. Now go hate unproNazi stuff somewhere else."
:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: Translation=yupp

And Britain doesn't have the right to train medical professionals until you discover dentistry.

ZOMG U R CLEVAH.

Germany doesn't have the right to move any of those memorials until it wins a world war. :P

SHHH! You just gave 2 million Parisians a massive wave of foreboding, and they don't know why yet! :D

You are aware that the Soviet War memorial in Tiergarten is in WEST BERLIN, no?

That just means they built it BEFORE the 1949's divisions.

SHHH! You just gave 2 million Parisians a massive wave of foreboding, and they don't know why yet! :D

I just love the quote from a French minister when he heard the the West German army was using rubber soled boots:

'So next time we won't hear them coming...'

Does the last 57 years make up for all that other time?

Yes. The Kaiser was nowhere nearly as bad as Lenin or Stalin.

Yes. The Kaiser was nowhere nearly as bad as Lenin or Stalin.

You seem to forget the Silly Little Man.

The Luftwaffe outnumbered us greatly and had more experienced pilots.

The Luftwaffe was made up of schoolboys in aircraft. "Here Timmy, go fly over Britain!"

I didn't. Fucking reds.

Don't blame the people. They had no say in who ruled them. I've met a lot of Russians, and they're among the sweetest people you could ever hope to meet.

Let's see, our little Island nation, with less troops than the US could shake out of the pckets of some old jeans, held off the nazi war machine for an embarassing amount of time, kicked the collective asses of Rommel and his laughable Italian allies, played a major part in Italy, fought off the Japanese for another embarassing length of time... Yeah, it was ALL the yanks.

EDIT: and we survived the attempt of a silly little German to bomb our cities to rubble.

Agreed, it certainly was not all the Americans. All of the Allies needed each other. As just one example, Britain couldn't have survived w/o US aid, the US couldn't have won in Europe without British logisitics and spycraft (those codebreakers were amazing!).

Asia was much more an American affair, but the UK was still important.

So? There are memorials to totalitarian regimes and wars all over Europe. Why not in Germany?

Because they're not memorials to GERMANY'S totalarian regimes.

Who ar you to tell us what we should be ashamed of and what we should be proud of in the first place???

Because I'm not stuffed full of anti-Germanism like you.

The Luftwaffe was made up of schoolboys in aircraft. "Here Timmy, go fly over Britain!"

Ahem.

At the outset of the war, the Luftwaffe was one of the most modern, powerful, and experienced air forces in the world, dominating the skies over Europe with aircraft that were much more advanced than their initial counterparts.

Boy, because that all cancels out the fact that America had one of the modern world's earliest democracies.

I'm using examples to show that ANY country can be considered ruthless or totalitarian. So far, I've yet to get a reason out of you why the Soviet memorials should be removed other than you hate the Soviets.

Don't blame the people. They had no say in who ruled them. I've met a lot of Russians, and they're among the sweetest people you could ever hope to meet.

They had no say in who ruled them? They had no say in who ruled them. Let me tell you a little something about Russia. Back in 1917, they had this little thing called the RUSSIAN REVOLUTION. Where the people got angry and installed a socialist dictatorship.

I'm using examples to show that ANY country can be considered ruthless or totalitarian. So far, I've yet to get a reason out of you why the Soviet memorials should be removed other than you hate the Soviets.

Don't be silly, the personal issues of one lunatic are reason enough.
*nods sagely*

Because they're not memorials to GERMANY'S totalarian regimes.



Because I'm not stuffed full of anti-Germanism like you.

Oh, right, because if they were Germany's totalitarian regimes everything would be just fine and dandy. What would people say if the Germans put up a huge statue of Hitler in the middle of Berlin saying "In memory of Hitler"?

Ahem.

I don't consider them advanced. The world assumed that they were advanced because they looked fancy. They were wrong.

Because they're not memorials to GERMANY'S totalarian regimes.

Because I'm not stuffed full of anti-Germanism like you.

Big difference, really. :rolleyes: Who cares what regime you die under if you're dead? And this memorial is not one to the Sovjet Union itself, but to the troops who fought Germany in WW II.

Anti-Germanism? *lol Honey, I spent the first 29 years of my life in that place. It has its faults, it has its advantages, but I'm in no way anti-German. I simply am German.

For pur generations' sakes, they should all be surrpunded by hure signs that say "The Holocaust did too happen. So did WWII. Ha ha. Yopu revisionists are wrong. Now go hate unproNazi stuff somewhere else."

Your spelling is as bad as your logic.
By the same rationale, the Soviet monuments say "The Nazis were defeated by a country that didn't speak English. You revisionists are wrong, and the Eastern Front mattered."

They had no say in who ruled them? They had no say in who ruled them. Let me tell you a little something about Russia. Back in 1917, they had this little thing called the RUSSIAN REVOLUTION. Where the people got angry and installed a socialist dictatorship.
No, the people got pissed and installed an interim government, that got overthrown by the reds. Learn some history.

I'm using examples to show that ANY country can be considered ruthless or totalitarian. So far, I've yet to get a reason out of you why the Soviet memorials should be removed other than you hate the Soviets.

Put their rapist-statues in their own damn rapist country.

I don't consider them advanced. The world assumed that they were advanced because they looked fancy. They were wrong.


I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but wikipedia articles are in fact written from the perspective of the 21st century.:rolleyes:

Oh, right, because if they were Germany's totalitarian regimes everything would be just fine and dandy. What would people say if the Germans put up a huge statue of Hitler in the middle of Berlin saying "In memory of Hitler"?

Why not something in memorial of German soldiers killed? What's wrong with that?

Put their rapist-statues in their own damn rapist country.

Rapists of the world - unite and build statues :p

Why not something in memorial of German soldiers killed? What's wrong with that?

'In Defense of Fascist Imperialism!'

Anti-Germanism? *lol Honey, I spent the first 29 years of my life in that place. It has its faults, it has its advantages, but I'm in no way anti-German. I simply am German.

It's not my fault that the first thing you learn in kindergarten was "YOU ARE EVIL! Hate yourself! Be ashamed!"

Why not something in memorial of German soldiers killed? What's wrong with that?

There are plenty of those around, in every town and village in the whole country.

Rapists of the world - unite and build statues :p

Sig worthy methinks.

That just means they built it BEFORE the 1949's divisions.And that no one wanted to tear it down since then. The inscription is rather clear on whom they were fighting. Likewise, I believe the irony of it being on the street of the 17th of June makes it worthwhile to keep it there regardless of the inscription.

It's not my fault that the first thing you learn in kindergarten was "YOU ARE EVIL! Hate yourself! Be ashamed!"

Anyone who disagrees with you has obviously been brainwashed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markreich
I'm using examples to show that ANY country can be considered ruthless or totalitarian. So far, I've yet to get a reason out of you why the Soviet memorials should be removed other than you hate the Soviets.

Put their rapist-statues in their own damn rapist country.

I'm using examples to show that ANY country can be considered ruthless or totalitarian. So far, I've yet to get a reason out of you why the Soviet memorials should be removed other than you hate the Soviets.

(Feel free to break this circle at any time...)

ROFL. The RAF consisted of a severely understrength force scraped together from what pilots we got back from Dunkirk and whoever we could train quickly. The Luftwaffe outnumbered us greatly and had more experienced pilots. And we and Hitler's incompetencePWNED GERMANY IN THE ASS.
fixed. If Hitler hadn't decided to stop the attacks on the RAF in order to bomb London halfway to the stone age, the RAF could have easily been destroyed. Just goes to show you that if he/she is dumb and/or crazy enough, your mortal enemy might just actually be your best friend.

No, the people got pissed and installed an interim government, that got overthrown by the reds. Learn some history.

The reds surrounded the parliament house and seized power! Yeah, it would have taken a fucking monumental force to stop that.

'In Defense of Fascist Imperialism!'
We have momorials to confederate soldiers who every liberal in this country will tell you (wrongly) were all racists. I have nothing against a memorial for the brave men who were just following orders.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but wikipedia articles are in fact written from the perspective of the 21st century.:rolleyes:

If it was advanced, it would have won wars.

fixed. If Hitler hadn't decided to stop the attacks on the RAF in order to bomb London halfway to the stone age, the RAF could have easily been destroyed. Just goes to show you that if he/she is dumb and/or crazy enough, your mortal enemy might just actually be your best friend.

You wouldn't have beaten us. Remember, the Luftwaffe was just schoolboys in planes.:rolleyes:

Because I'm not stuffed full of anti-Germanism like you.Yeah, you're only stuffed with it when the team loses in the world cup.

It's not my fault that the first thing you learn in kindergarten was "YOU ARE EVIL! Hate yourself! Be ashamed!"

I seem to be less ashamed than you are... I can live well with the fact that historically, we do owe a big deal to the allied forces. Not eternal gratefulness as was expected by a certain USAmerican recently, but resnsibility in our actions today.
And I have no problem with those memories, I don't have to go around shouting my head of about how that's all lies and not true and we weren't worse than others. Get over your minority complexes.

If it was advanced, it would have won wars.
The Spitfire and Hurricane happened to be more advanced.

We have momorials to confederate soldiers who every liberal in this country will tell you (wrongly) were all racists. I have nothing against a memorial for the brave men who were just following orders.
I thought the "just following orders" excuse died along with the Nazis who were hanged as a result of the Nuremburg trials.

I'm using examples to show that ANY country can be considered ruthless or totalitarian. So far, I've yet to get a reason out of you why the Soviet memorials should be removed other than you hate the Soviets.

(Feel free to break this circle at any time...)

They're in GERMANY! Would you like an Al-Qaeda memorial in New York, or a Imperial Japanese memorial in Pearl Harbour?

The reds surrounded the parliament house and seized power! Yeah, it would have taken a fucking monumental force to stop that.
Your nation was ravaged by war, first with other, then with each other. How are you supposed to defend yourself? Maybe it wouldn't of been a big thing from your perspective but don't criticise them from the comfortable glow of your monitor.

They're in GERMANY! Would you like an Al-Qaeda memorial in New York, or a Imperial Japanese memorial in Pearl Harbour?

The Soviets liberated half of Germany from the rule of the Nazs. They lost 50 million citizens as a direct result of the war. The Soviets earned the right to do whatever the fuck they wanted with Germany, frankly.

I seem to be less ashamed than you are... I can live well with the fact that historically, we do owe a big deal to the allied forces. Not eternal gratefulness as was expected by a certain USAmerican recently, but resnsibility in our actions today.
And I have no problem with those memories, I don't have to go around shouting my head of about how that's all lies and not true and we weren't worse than others. Get over your minority complexes.

We owe the Allies nothing.

No, wait. We owe the Allies a royal nuking, that's what we owe them.

If it was advanced, it would have won wars.

Yes, because the most advanced force ALWAYS wins. :rolleyes:

Yeah, you're only stuffed with it when the team loses in the world cup.

*roflmao

*high fives Laerod

We owe the Allies nothing.

No, wait. We owe the Allies a royal nuking, that's what we owe them.

Would you rather be under nazi rule?

We owe the Allies nothing.

No, wait. We owe the Allies a royal nuking, that's what we owe them.

Are you a Nazi?

I thought the "just following orders" excuse died along with the Nazis who were hanged as a result of the Nuremburg trials.

And that was just an Allied excuse to kill Germans. How is it my fault if I'm told to shoot that guys over there or die? What, you expect me to let myself die?

I thought the "just following orders" excuse died along with the Nazis who were hanged as a result of the Nuremburg trials.
Fine then, when someone shoots at you, you shoot back. Or is the sheer terror excuse invalid to?

They're in GERMANY!And you're not. Get over it.

The Soviets liberated half of Germany from the rule of the Nazs. They lost 50 million citizens as a direct result of the war. The Soviets earned the right to do whatever the fuck they wanted with Germany, frankly.

Liberated? Rape is liberation! Spread the word!

We owe the Allies nothing.

No, wait. We owe the Allies a royal nuking, that's what we owe them.

You Australians sure don't. Germany owes them their present day democracy. Or rather, the possibility to form that democracy.

Yes, because the most advanced force ALWAYS wins. :rolleyes:
They win some wars, like the Gulf War aka the first Iraq war, not counting Iran-Iraq.

Liberated? Rape is liberation! Spread the word!

Auschwitz is liberation! Arbeit macht frei! Spread the word!

They're in GERMANY! Would you like an Al-Qaeda memorial in New York, or a Imperial Japanese memorial in Pearl Harbour?
Fine. As long as I don't have to pay for it.

Sure, go nuts. I'll help to burn them down.

Nah, I'm just happy this finally happened:

UNESCO agrees to rename the former Nazi concentration camp of Auschwitz
"The Former Nazi German Concentration and Extermination Camp Auschwitz Birkenau" is to be the full name of the former Nazi death camp in the south of Poland.
The change has been accepted by the UNESCO World Heritage Committee debating in Vilnius, Lithuania. A motion to this effect has been forwarded by the Polish government which argued it will put an end to references in world media which often spoke of the "Polish concentration camp".

The final decision as to the change of the name will be made during UNESCO’s next year's session in New Zealand.

http://poland.pl/news/article,UNESCO_agrees_to_rename_the_former_Nazi_concentration_camp_of_Auschwitz,id,230157.htm

Are you a Nazi?

No. I'm anti-Nazi. But better them than the Rapists... sorry, Russians.

Your nation was ravaged by war, first with other, then with each other. How are you supposed to defend yourself? Maybe it wouldn't of been a big thing from your perspective but don't criticise them from the comfortable glow of your monitor.What? Australia was ravaged by war that badly? Why don't the history books say anything about that? :p

Fine then, when someone shoots at you, you shoot back. Or is the sheer terror excuse invalid to?
Nope. It's called self-defense. The JFO excuse died out when soldiers learned the concept of actually thinking.

Would you rather be under nazi rule?

I'd rather be under Nazi rule than Allied slavery.

They win some wars, like the Gulf War aka the first Iraq war, not counting Iran-Iraq.

Yes, but the point is that Greater Alemannia seems to think that Germany's airforce couldn't have been advanced because they lost :rolleyes:

No. I'm anti-Nazi. But better them than the Rapists... sorry, Russians.

Better to be subject to summary execution or transportation to a death camp than the low possibility of sexual assault?

The Soviets liberated half of Germany from the rule of the Nazs. They lost 50 million citizens as a direct result of the war. The Soviets earned the right to do whatever the fuck they wanted with Germany, frankly.

The bastards then proceeded to impose a brand of totalitarianism no less evil than National Socialism on part of Germany and most of Eastern Europe. Forgive me if I'm not drooling with affection for the bastards.

What? Australia was ravaged by war that badly? Why don't the history books say anything about that? :p
It was a put yourself in their shoes scenario, sorry.

Better to be subject to summary execution or transportation to a death camp than the low possibility of sexual assault?

Low? Low. Right. Read a book.

I'd rather be under Nazi rule than Allied slavery.

Right. No point in arguing further. Find yourself a little island nation in which to establish a Nazi regime and live happily ever after in your own dellusions.

But leave Germany alone!

Yes, but the point is that Greater Alemannia seems to think that Germany's airforce couldn't have been advanced because they lost :rolleyes:

Advanced airforces win wars. If you lose, it means that someone else was more advanced. Which means that you're not advanced.

The bastards then proceeded to impose a brand of totalitarianism no less evil than National Socialism on part of Germany and most of Eastern Europe. Forgive me if I'm not drooling with affection for the bastards.

National Socialism is without a doubt the worst political ideal in history. The kind of dictatorship that arose from the 1917 revolution was incidental. The effects of nazism were desirable effects as far as the NSDAP was concerned.

I'd rather be under Nazi rule than Allied slavery.
You mean Soviet slavery. After WWII, former Axis-member and unstable ally member USSR went back to planning the annihilation of democrasy and true communism, replacing it with dictatorship, a form as bad as Naziism.

Nope. It's called self-defense. The JFO excuse died out when soldiers learned the concept of actually thinking.
I'm tired, infact I think I'm done with this whole psuedo-issue. Bah to you all.

I'd rather be under Nazi rule than Allied slavery.Which shows you to be pro-Nazi or at least entirely ill-educated. You have no idea of what happened during that time, so I suggest you spare us your ignorance and learn about German history.

Advanced airforces win wars. If you lose, it means that someone else was more advanced. Which means that you're not advanced.

*sigh*

Vietnam. Gulf War II.

They're in GERMANY! Would you like an Al-Qaeda memorial in New York, or a Imperial Japanese memorial in Pearl Harbour?

Have you ever BEEN to the US?
There is a memorial to Al-Qaeda right now: the holes at WTC are still there, 5 years later.
And, by your logic, we need to raise the Arizona.

Low? Low. Right. Read a book.

More than 6 million, you reckon?

The bastards then proceeded to impose a brand of totalitarianism no less evil than National Socialism on part of Germany and most of Eastern Europe. Forgive me if I'm not drooling with affection for the bastards.

I agree. I'm sick of this "Germans are evil because of the Holocaust! What? There was a Holodomor in Ukraine? You liar, the Soviets were angels" crap.

The Spitfire and Hurricane happened to be more advanced.

Well, that little thing called Radar was a major contributor, too. ;)

Advanced airforces win wars. If you lose, it means that someone else was more advanced. Which means that you're not advanced.Just like Vietnam for the US and Afghanistan for the Soviets then?

Which shows you to be pro-Nazi or at least entirely ill-educated. You have no idea of what happened during that time, so I suggest you spare us your ignorance and learn about German history.

They were considering enslaving Germans to work for France. So, yeah. Nazis over that anyday.

Well, that little thing called Radar was a major contributor, too. ;)

Hey, never deny that the Spitfire and hurricane kicked ass! Don't even imply it!

Have you ever BEEN to the US?
There is a memorial to Al-Qaeda right now: the holes at WTC are still there, 5 years later.
And, by your logic, we need to raise the Arizona.
It's too moderate an issue, as in it's not important enough, yet it's too important to be considered pork. No wonder people say that Jews don't waste money. They aren't allowed to have pork.

*sigh*

Vietnam. Gulf War II.

Please. Vietnam? It was either pull out, or fight the USSR.

The bastards then proceeded to impose a brand of totalitarianism no less evil than National Socialism on part of Germany and most of Eastern Europe. Forgive me if I'm not drooling with affection for the bastards.

cough cough american funded dictators

eg Pinochet

They were considering enslaving Germans to work for France. So, yeah. Nazis over that anyday.
Nazis actually enslaved French, Poles, Germans, Dutch, Belgians, Americans, British...

They were considering enslaving Germans to work for France. So, yeah. Nazis over that anyday.

So work is worth than death?

*lol Just goes to show that there's no way in hell you could pass yourself off as German :p

The bastards then proceeded to impose a brand of totalitarianism no less evil than National Socialism on part of Germany and most of Eastern Europe. Forgive me if I'm not drooling with affection for the bastards.Actually, from eye-witness accounts of family members and other people that experienced both, the totalitarianism in East Germany was indeed much less evil than the National Socialism of the 3rd Reich. Mind you this is only the opinion of people that actually resided in these countries and experienced everything first-hand, so their accounts may be a bit biased...

Better to be subject to summary execution or transportation to a death camp than the low possibility of sexual assault?

Especially if you lived on an upper floor. A post-war rape study in Vienna proved that for the most part, women that lived above the 4th floor had a MUCH lower assault risk.

It seems that stairs prove to be a great defense against both Soviet soldiers and Daleks alike!

Nazis actually enslaved French, Poles, Germans, Dutch, Belgians, Americans, British...

And that makes what the Allies did so much better?

They were considering enslaving Germans to work for France. So, yeah. Nazis over that anyday.

Because it's much better to brutally exterminate people than to enslave them! Hurrah!

I'd rather be under Nazi rule than Allied slavery.

You sir, are a git.

They were considering enslaving Germans to work for France. So, yeah. Nazis over that anyday.And? Nazis were actually taking Germans and working them to death. How's that any better?

So work is worth than death?

*lol Just goes to show that there's no way in hell you could pass yourself off as German :p

Give me liberty, or give me death.

And that makes what the Allies did so much better?

The fact that they only planned it, but never exectued those plans, makes it a whole lot better I think.

And that makes what the Soviets did so much better?
fixed.

And that makes what the Allies did so much better?

Saving Europe from nazism?

THE BASTARDS!

Give me liberty, or give me death.

That would qualify you for US citizenship, but not for German, sorry.

Hey, never deny that the Spitfire and hurricane kicked ass! Don't even imply it!

Not at all. Just that they'd never have been so effective w/o radar.

fixed.

If you don't want a label, don't ally with the Soviets.

That would qualify you for US citizenship, but not for German, sorry.

Wow, so German ARE wussies? Geez, I just thought that was a rumour.

If you don't want a label, don't ally with the Soviets.

Are you saying that planning the use of slave labour is worse than basing much of your wartime economy on working citizens of occupied territories (and indeed your own citizens) to death?

The fact that they only planned it, but never exectued those plans, makes it a whole lot better I think.

It was just about to pass, until the President was informed that 50% of Germans would die.

Give me liberty, or give me death.The latter is what was dished out to people that disagreed with the regime, usually after a slow process of being starved and worked to death. Now the Soviets and East Germans would occasionally exile more important people, while in Nazi Germany, they'd either get executed on the spot or killed as I described above.

Are you saying that planning the use of slave labour is worse than basing much of your wartime economy on working citizens of occupied territories (and indeed your own citizens) to death?

No. But that doesn't excuse the Allies.

It was just about to pass, until the President was informed that 50% of Germans would die.

You are a complete joke.

Wow, so German ARE wussies? Geez, I just thought that was a rumour.

Different priorities. Liberty didn't really make the top ten.

It's too moderate an issue, as in it's not important enough, yet it's too important to be considered pork. No wonder people say that Jews don't waste money. They aren't allowed to have pork.

LOL!! That's an awesome post! :)

cough cough american funded dictators

*cough* *cough* The total number of people killed by American funded dictators is a tiny fraction of the total number of people killed by the Soviets and their satellite scum.

And? Nazis were actually taking Germans and working them to death. How's that any better?
Because a certain SS doctor performed cruel experiments on prisoners. He even boiled victims almost to the point of death because that made live disection much easier. Also, one of my ancestors was killed in a nazi experiment where they injected patroleum into her spine.

Cruel experiments make actual slavery, torture, and xenophobia-driven genocide more acceptable than slavery that didn't happen.

The latter is what was dished out to people that disagreed with the regime, usually after a slow process of being starved and worked to death. Now the Soviets and East Germans would occasionally exile more important people, while in Nazi Germany, they'd either get executed on the spot or killed as I described above.

They disagreed enough to get imprisoned, but not enough to revolt? That's some real dedication there.

No. But that doesn't excuse the Allies.

From what? making alliances of necessity? As The Great Winston Churchill said:

If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.

It was just about to pass, until the President was informed that 50% of Germans would die.

Now, would a 50% death toll have deterred the Nazis?

See, that's the difference right there.

Different priorities. Liberty didn't really make the top ten.

Ahh, no wonder you love the Soviets. Bet you were fucking disappointed when the West won the Cold War, ehh?

They disagreed enough to get imprisoned, but not enough to revolt? That's some real dedication there.Learn German history before making silly comments like that. ;)

*cough* *cough* The total number of people killed by American funded dictators is a tiny fraction of the total number of people killed by the Soviets and their satellite scum.

*cough Link to that, please?

No. But that doesn't excuse the Allies.

Excuse the Allies for what? They decided not to use Germans as labour and nothing happened!

From what? making alliances of necessity? As The great Winston Churchill said:

And if Stalin invaded Hell, I'd beat Stalin, then I'd beat Hell too.

Ahh, no wonder you love the Soviets. Bet you were fucking disappointed when the West won the Cold War, ehh?

I don't love the Sovjets. They're part of history. No point in loving or hating anything that has passed on

The gist of this so far seems to be:

The allies were really mean for allying with the Soviets, and every single german was nothing but an innocent victim of Soviet meanness!

Excuse the Allies for what? They decided not to use Germans as labour and nothing happened!

Nah, they just raped half the women, killed half the men, drowned half the children and stole half the property.

And if Stalin invaded Hell, I'd beat Stalin, then I'd beat Hell too.

You're hardly the most worldly person around, that much is apparent.

Actually, from eye-witness accounts of family members and other people that experienced both, the totalitarianism in East Germany was indeed much less evil than the National Socialism of the 3rd Reich. Mind you this is only the opinion of people that actually resided in these countries and experienced everything first-hand, so their accounts may be a bit biased...

In terms of body count, the Third Reich was many times more evil. In terms of lack of freedom, they were equal, because freedom was absolutely non-existent in both of them.

If you don't want a label, don't ally with the Soviets.
Actually, the Soviets joined us. You see, Stalin and Hitler signed a paper that said that they would be allied. Once Hitler's anti-communism caused him to order the invasion of the Soviet Union, the agreement became null and void, allowing Stalin to join Roosevelt/Truman(Roosevelt died less than a month before VE day), among others, in their fight against Hitler and friends.

Hmmmm.
Hitler and friends.
Barney and friends.
Coincidence? I think not.

Nah, they just raped half the women, killed half the men, drowned half the children and stole half the property.

Oddly enough, I don't see the 50% population drop...

I don't love the Sovjets. They're part of history. No point in loving or hating anything that has passed on

I hate all totalarian, genocidal regimes. Especially ones that are gone, because they're the worst.

I hate all totalarian, genocidal regimes. Especially ones that are gone, because they're the worst.

You're pretty quick to defend nazism.

In terms of body count, the Third Reich was many times more evil. In terms of lack of freedom, they were equal, because freedom was absolutely non-existent in both of them.

Yeah, but while the Nazis are condemned every day for their actions, the Soviets managed to convince the world that their worst crimes were "looking scary" and "talking nasty."

Nah, they just raped half the women, killed half the men, drowned half the children and stole half the property.

You mean raped half of those women who survived the bombings and starvation inflicted on them by the Nazi regime, half the men who didn't die at the front in a pointless war led by their own regime, half the children who weren't yet drafted for the front and half the property that had was still standing?

Oh, and btw, please provide the sources, not just the estimated numbers. Thank you.

In terms of body count, the Third Reich was many times more evil. In terms of lack of freedom, they were equal, because freedom was absolutely non-existent in both of them.

Well, the Soviets killed a lot more of their own people than the Nazis. However, it's pretty certain that the Soviets were better than the Nazis in the nations they took over and after Stalin's death.

You're pretty quick to defend nazism.
He forgot to add "besides Nazi-Germany" :p

You're pretty quick to defend nazism.

Priorities. Better my Nazi country than their democratic country.

I hate all totalarian, genocidal regimes. Especially ones that are gone, because they're the worst.

There's nothing to learn from hate.

Priorities. Better my Nazi country than their democratic country.

Nazi supermen are our superiors!

Well, the Soviets killed a lot more of their own people than the Nazis. However, it's pretty certain that the Soviets were better than the Nazis in the nations they took over and after Stalin's death.

Sure they were. And the Holodomor never happened. Nor did the Soviets invade Czechoslovakia.

*cough Link to that, please?

Communism has killed 100 million people in the 20th century alone. If I really need to provide a link that U.S. dictators killed less than that many, than this isn't even worth my time.

Sure they were. And the Holodomor never happened. Nor did the Soviets invade Czechoslovakia.

You're the love of my life
but it cuts like a knife and I feel that I'm being misled
See I'm a little concerned for I've recently learned of the swastika tattoo on your head
And it makes you smile when you hear "Sieg Heil"
You love the smell of a burning cross in the yard
You do goose step salutes in your Doc Martin boots, and you quoted "Mein Kampf" in our 5th anniversary card.

I think you're a nazi baby,
are you a nazi? You might be a nazi baby...

You keep extensive files on the Nuremberg trials, and you watch them whenever they're airing
I guess I should've known when you bought a new bone for your puppies named Goebbles and Goering
You showed up late to our very first date, I said "how are you" you said "white power"
Call me paranoid but I'm not overjoyed when you ask me if I want to shower...I think you're a nazi
Don't be lying baby,
Are you a nazi?
Are you anti-Zion baby?

Your every dress is monagram SS, you hold an Aryan picknick and bash
And it makes me irate when you say I look great when I wear a little tiny moustache,
Your social politics say that races don't mix, and you call it pure blood pollution
And whenever I'm sad, you say it's not so bad, for every problem there's a "Final Solution"...I think you're a nazi,
Give me an answer baby
Are you a nazi?
You drive a fucking panzer baby

You say that love is blind so how could I have guessed
But then again I met you at the Wagner Fest

I know you're a nazi
And that's why I'm leavin'
I know you're a nazi
Sure as my name is Stephen, Lynch-Berg-stein.

In terms of body count, the Third Reich was many times more evil. In terms of lack of freedom, they were equal, because freedom was absolutely non-existent in both of them.Oh, please. Both were marked by an inherent lack of freedom, but if you ask people that actually lived under the GDR regime, they'll laugh at you for that comment.

Nazi supermen are our superiors!
Kill the Juice. What? OJ"Juice" Simpson killed someone. He's dangerous. It's not my fault Juice and Jews are homonyms.

There's nothing to learn from hate.

Hate keeps the mind sharp, keeps the body ready, and keeps the soul burning.

Communism has killed 100 million people in the 20th century alone. If I really need to provide a link that U.S. dictators killed less than that many, than this isn't even worth my time.

I was going to ask for a link for both numbers, not just the US one.

Oh, please. Both were marked by an inherent lack of freedom, but if you ask people that actually lived under the GDR regime, they'll laugh at you for that comment.

And if you ask the people who lived in Soviet Ukraine... oh wait, THEY ALL STARVED TO DEATH.

I hate all totalarian, genocidal regimes. Especially ones that are gone, because they're the worst.You'd be hard pressed to call the GDR genocidal.

Hate keeps the mind sharp, keeps the body ready, and keeps the soul burning.

It dulls intelligence, brings out the inner fuckwad and turns normal people into flaming shit-monsters.

Well, the Soviets killed a lot more of their own people than the Nazis. However, it's pretty certain that the Soviets were better than the Nazis in the nations they took over and after Stalin's death.

I was talking about the East Germans. They killed a minuscule fraction of the number the Nazis killed.

Hate keeps the mind sharp, keeps the body ready, and keeps the soul burning.

And it makes you blind. Good luck with the rest of your bodily functions, though.

And if you ask the people who lived in Soviet Ukraine... oh wait, THEY ALL STARVED TO DEATH.I doubt people in the Soviet Ukraine would have known what things were like in Nazi Germany and the GDR anyway.

Sure they were. And the Holodomor never happened. Nor did the Soviets invade Czechoslovakia.

After Stalin's death, the Soviets didn't participate in mass murder and genocide. The same could hardly have been said for the Nazis, the whole political philosophy was propped up by the fact that certain groups had to be exterminated.

It's a bit unfair to call the Soviet Union under Stalin communist... It was Stalinist, unsurprisingly.

I doubt people in the Soviet Ukraine would have known what things were like in Nazi Germany and the GDR anyway.

The Ukrainians loved the Nazis, because the Nazis brought food with them.

At least the Nazis were fucking aggressive and angry going about the Holocaust. The Soviets just didn't like the Ukrainians and said "Fuck it, we'll just take your food away."

The Ukrainians loved the Nazis, because the Nazis brought food with them.

At least the Nazis were fucking aggressive and angry going about the Holocaust. The Soviets just didn't like the Ukrainians and said "Fuck it, we'll just take your food away."

What the hell? You're defending the nazis because they actively went on murder sprees?

You are one sick fuck.

After Stalin's death, the Soviets didn't participate in mass murder and genocide. The same could hardly have been said for the Nazis, the whole political philosophy was propped up by the fact that certain groups had to be exterminated.

That's because the Nazis lost. If Hitler never came to power, we'd be having the exact same conversation with the Soviets in the place of the Nazis.

I was going to ask for a link for both numbers, not just the US one.

There are lots of books documenting the crimes of communism. Books that most leftists do their utmost to keep hidden from the public eye.

As for U.S. dictators, few if any caused more than a million deaths (except Chiang Kai-shek and possibly Suharto). Most killed thousands (Pinochet), tens of thousands (the Argentine junta), or hundreds of thousands (Rios Montt). Not that this excuses them, but if you measure the numbers, you'll find that the total number is much less than the number killed by Communists. Including Chiang, the total number of people killed by pro U.S. dictators is probably just under or just over 20 million, probably 25 million tops. A good book to read is Death by Government, which documents all the major dictators of the 20th century, on the left and right.

The Ukrainians loved the Nazis, because the Nazis brought food with them.

At least the Nazis were fucking aggressive and angry going about the Holocaust. The Soviets just didn't like the Ukrainians and said "Fuck it, we'll just take your food away."Two things:
1. We weren't talking about the Ukraine or the Soviets, we were talking about East Germany and Nazi Germany.
2. If you believe the Nazis didn't take food from Eastern Europe and starved the people there, you are sadly mistaken.

That's because the Nazis lost. If Hitler never came to power, we'd be having the exact same conversation with the Soviets in the place of the Nazis.

The Soviet agenda never said "these people have to be slaughtered". Killings done by the USSR in Stalin's time were on the whim of Stalin himself. By contrast, the Nazi agenda definitely does say "these people have to be slaughtered" and therefore we would most likely still have mass murders regardless of the leader if not for the fact it was thankfully stopped.

If you believe the Nazis didn't take food from Eastern Europe and starved the people there, you are sadly mistaken.

Nah, but the Nazis took food so they could eat it. The Soviets took food so the Ukrainians couldn't eat it.

Nah, but the Nazis took food so they could eat it. The Soviets took food so the Ukrainians couldn't eat it.
The Soviets had just as much of a problem with food supply as the nazis...

At least until they could pillage Germany.:)

Oh, please. Both were marked by an inherent lack of freedom, but if you ask people that actually lived under the GDR regime, they'll laugh at you for that comment.

Let's see: Nazi Germany - 0% free. East Germany - 0% free. Oh, but I forgot, the East Germans provided "free healthcare," and assorted crap. Surely they weren't all bad?

The Soviets had just as much of a problem with food supply as the nazis...

At least until they could pillage Germany.:)

No, they deliberately starved Ukraine.

Free healthcare, free education, Trabants for all...

The nazis deliberately starved millions of concentration camp prisoners.

Let's see: Nazi Germany - 0% free. East Germany - 0% free. Oh, but I forgot, the East Germans provided "free healthcare," and assorted crap. Surely they weren't all bad?Ever been to East Germany when the Wall was still up? If so, how many East Germans have you talked to? In German? A big majority will laugh at what you just said.

Nah, but the Nazis took food so they could eat it. The Soviets took food so the Ukrainians couldn't eat it.

The Nazis also deliberately starved Ukrainians.

http://www.europa-infoshop.de/Die_Union/Info_s___News/Portrait/Winston_Churchill/a_c_roosevelt-stalin-yalta.jpg

I bet it's just killing you that those guys led the forces that pounded nazism down to a fine dust.

Ever been to East Germany when the Wall was still up? If so, how many East Germans have you talked to? In German? A big majority will laugh at what you just said.

I was 4 when the Wall was torn down. And how was East Germany less oppressive than Nazi Germany, when neither allowed any individual liberties?

In East Germany there wasn't the same tendency for racially-based disappearances.

I was 4 when the Wall was torn down. And how was East Germany less oppressive than Nazi Germany, when neither allowed any individual liberties?I was 5. What individual liberties do you think were denied? East Germany was less oppressive than Nazi Germany according to the people that witnessed both.
East Germany eventually had a pioneer service for conscientious objectors. Nazi Germany had no such thing.

There are lots of books documenting the crimes of communism. Books that most leftists do their utmost to keep hidden from the public eye.

As for U.S. dictators, few if any caused more than a million deaths (except Chiang Kai-shek and possibly Suharto). Most killed thousands (Pinochet), tens of thousands (the Argentine junta), or hundreds of thousands (Rios Montt). Not that this excuses them, but if you measure the numbers, you'll find that the total number is much less than the number killed by Communists. Including Chiang, the total number of people killed by pro U.S. dictators is probably just under or just over 20 million, probably 25 million tops. A good book to read is Death by Government, which documents all the major dictators of the 20th century, on the left and right.

Its a bit of a tight squeeze, but you could put Pol Pot on that list

I was 4 when the Wall was torn down. And how was East Germany less oppressive than Nazi Germany, when neither allowed any individual liberties?

What individual liberties are you talking about right now?
Oh, and I was 15 when the wall came down. And went to live in Leipzig (former Eastern Germany) for 4 years not long after that.

Meh. As long as the memorials don't say really bad stuff about Germans (and they don't, they talk about "fascists", "occupiers" and that sort of thing), there's nothing wrong with it.
I never considered the Russians my enemies (in fact...do I even have enemies?). My grandma might think differently about it, but to me...the guys these memorials are for are young men and women just like the ones that get sent to their premature deaths in any war.

What individual liberties are you talking about right now?
Oh, and I was 15 when the wall came down. And went to live in Leipzig (former Eastern Germany) for 4 years not long after that.

It's easy to say "Hey, this place ain't so bad" when the commies are gone.

What the hell happened to this thread?

I was pushing it in a nice silly direction, and I go boink my wife and come back, now it's all serious and debatey.

This just won't do. :(

It's easy to say "Hey, this place ain't so bad" when the commies are gone.

Did I say that?
I'd be ever so grateful if you would stop pressuming so much.

The place was bad when I got there, and I saw a lot of renovation and reconstruction going on in those 4 years. But contrary to popular belief, the GDR didn't kill political prisoners by the truckload, and it didn't make dissidents disappear overnight. They contended themselves with moving undesired people west over the border, as they did with Wolf Biermann for example.
For the Nazis, on the other hand, exile wasn't an option. You distributed flyers questioning the government, you were shot.

What the hell happened to this thread?

I was pushing it in a nice silly direction, and I go boink my wife and come back, now it's all serious and debatey.

This just won't do. :(

Well, there you go. Don't boink your wife or else face serious debate :p

Well, there you go. Don't boink your wife or else face serious debate :p

*twitches*

1) here in the US every major battlefield has statues for both North and South commemorating basically the same thing ... the courage of the (mostly) young men who died on those fields and hills. now I'v never been to Germany but I would assume that the monument in Berlin basically says the same thing.

2) The Russians lost over 6 and a half million soldiers fighting the germans back the first time http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/blww1castable.htm and another 19 million throwing the Germans out a second time http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html. Their massive losses and heroic fighting against a moron who ordered his panzers into the Russian winter earned them the right to build a statue or two.

3) this thread has seeminly dissolved into two sections. the "nazi's are great and communists and the rest of the allies sucked" section and the intelligent section going back and forth. I'm not really getting the point of arguing the merits of the nazi's, since they didn't really have any. The only thing that I can think of was that they were quite advanced medically speaking. Then again, thats thanks to Joseph Mengele so it doesn't even count.

The Communist regime wasn't a good government, no body is denying that. There were better than the nazi's though, hands down.

Hell yes! Without those Russian soldiers, Nazis would have overrun Europe. No Cold War between East and West here... the West would be Nazi-ified for decades. And that's a worse alternative is it not?

(echo... echo... echo...)
You mean Hitler (who murdered 6 million) is worse than Stalin (who murdered 20 million)? Silling twisting by the left-wing media, I'm afraid. They're obsessed with smearing the Right-wing, which is why we see Nazi attrocities on the news every day, we have a Holocaust Day, etc. Yet,the considerably more significant crimes perpetrated by their own Left-wing comrades are ignored. I think it's disgusting that the media have done this - erasing 20 million murders from existence, so it fits with their Leftist agenda.
Learn to be more open-minded.

You mean Hitler (who murdered 6 million) is worse than Stalin (who murdered 20 million)? Silling twisting by the left-wing media, I'm afraid. They're obsessed with smearing the Right-wing, which is why we see Nazi attrocities on the news every day, we have a Holocaust Day, etc. Yet,the considerably more significant crimes perpetrated by their own Left-wing comrades are ignored. I think it's disgusting that the media have done this - erasing 20 million murders from existence, so it fits with their Leftist agenda.
Learn to be more open-minded.

Hitler didn't murder 6 million, it's estimated that 6 million JEWS were killed during the Holocaust. WW II, initiated by Hitler, cost 62 million lives.

Learn to read sources correctly.

You mean Hitler (who murdered 6 million) is worse than Stalin (who murdered 20 million)? Silling twisting by the left-wing media, I'm afraid. They're obsessed with smearing the Right-wing, which is why we see Nazi attrocities on the news every day, we have a Holocaust Day, etc. Yet,the considerably more significant crimes perpetrated by their own Left-wing comrades are ignored. I think it's disgusting that the media have done this - erasing 20 million murders from existence, so it fits with their Leftist agenda.
Learn to be more open-minded.


stalin was in power over twice as long and wasn't involved in a multiple front war during his entire ride at the top. Learn to be more fair.

now I'v never been to Germany but I would assume that the monument in Berlin basically says the same thing.
The Soviets weren't very politically correct.
The Tiergarten Statue says: "Eternal glory to the heroes who fell in battle with the German fascist occupiers for the freedom and independence of the Soviet Union".

But that's fine with me. They did their job (many were drafted), they died for the commands of some moron at the top. Where their statues stands doesn't matter to me.

It's easy to say "Hey, this place ain't so bad" when the commies are gone.One could say the same for when the Nazis leave and haven't been around for a while.

stalin was in power over twice as long and wasn't involved in a multiple front war during his entire ride at the top. Learn to be more fair.

And even in that time he only managed to kill off about 1/3 of the number that Hitler can attribute to his name.

Inefficient Russians!

And even in that time he only managed to kill off about 1/3 of the number that Hitler can attribute to his name.

Inefficient Russians!


must have been guzzlin too much vodka, that stalin ;)

Hitler didn't murder 6 million, it's estimated that 6 million JEWS were killed during the Holocaust. WW II, initiated by Hitler, cost 62 million lives.

Oh yeah, blame Hitler for the war. France and the UK started it.

Oh yeah, blame Hitler for the war. France and the UK started it.
Oh, oh! I like where this is going to take you again! :D

Oh yeah, blame Hitler for the war. France and the UK started it.

Ah, yes. They invaded Poland, didn't they?

Oh, oh! I like where this is going to take you again! :D

It's the online equaivalent of an out-of-body experience, somehow.