NationStates Jolt Archive

You cannot make an argument on this site that basically rests on if you disagree with me you're stupid. Sometimes people get away with it being part of their argument, but this case it was C&T entire argument. Mostly because he doesn't have a better one.

You and I know that there are arguments against the religious practices of some. They are ignorant of science and even their own documents. However, there are plenty of religious people that accept all evidence they have of the world AND believe in a deity of a kind or another. Many of them, most of them would never want to impose any rules for behavior that stem from that belief on others. See, now the existence of those individuals makes it really difficult for people to hate on Christians so it's a lot easier to make sweeping statements like he made.

His statements are similar to a disdain for racism. His statements are similar to racism, amazing generalization based on the actions of a few to paint a very large group. Don't let your particular view on this matter color whether or not this poster is being reasonable.


Um this was a troll thread from the first right? What did he say that stood out to you?

I hate to break it to you, but Freud is largely irrelevant now, with the exception of his concepts of defense mechanisms and the subconscious/unconscious. Darwin never destroyed Christianity, at least not the sensible kind. And Marx was just a moon-eyed moron. I'm sorry to tell you this, but communism is very impossible, and all but dead in most countries today. I can guarantee you that Christianity will long outlast communism.

Also, I know a number of intelligent people who are practicing Christians (Jews and Muslims and others, too, for that matter).

Also, if you knew anything about Christianity at all, you would know that going to heaven is not based on doing good things, it's based on faith in God. Also, you seem to imply that being Christian and loving life are mutually exclusive. However, I consider myself a Christian and I love life at the same time. Oh, and I'm also considered smart. Hmm, maybe you have some rethinking to do. Or maybe you just have some plain 'ol thinking to do.

I hate to break it to you, but Freud and Marx will always be relevant. The made some significant mistakes, but you can't understand the resulting movements in history without understanding what sparked them.

Both wrote a great deal, and had truly innovative ideas. Not suprisingly then some of what they said will always be relevant.

Whats make beleave?Religion?

Religion isn't make believe by any means. Religion is just is just a word to express how people practice their worship of a higher power or force, whatever it may be. God/Gods may very well be make believe.

You cannot make an argument on this site that basically rests on if you disagree with me you're stupid. Sometimes people get away with it being part of their argument, but this case it was C&T entire argument. Mostly because he doesn't have a better one.

I'm not saying it was a good argument. I'm saying that I don't think it would be pinged for trolling. People say lots of stupid things that still aren't trolling.


You and I know that there are arguments against the religious practices of some. They are ignorant of science and even their own documents. However, there are plenty of religious people that accept all evidence they have of the world AND believe in a deity of a kind or another. Many of them, most of them would never want to impose any rules for behavior that stem from that belief on others. See, now the existence of those individuals makes it really difficult for people to hate on Christians so it's a lot easier to make sweeping statements like he made.

Last I checked, making stupid generalizations was permitted around here. Same with saying that you think a particular value system is stupid.

Do I like it? No. Do I wish people would knock it off? Yes. Do I think it automatically counts as "trolling"? Not really.


His statements are similar to a disdain for racism. His statements are similar to racism, amazing generalization based on the actions of a few to paint a very large group.

I didn't read a generalization ABOUT Christians in that post of his. Rather, he seemed to be saying that all "smart" people should look down on Christianity. He also expressed contempt for people who follow a particular type of moral code. I think those are opinions, and that he's entitled to hold (and express) those opinions.


Don't let your particular view on this matter color whether or not this poster is being reasonable.
I would suggest you do the same. I don't happen to agree with that poster, and I can see why what he said would bother you, but I think that it's a bit silly to single him out for trolling...particularly considering the context of this thread.

I'm not saying it was a good argument. I'm saying that I don't think it would be pinged for trolling. People say lots of stupid things that still aren't trolling.


Last I checked, making stupid generalizations was permitted around here. Same with saying that you think a particular value system is stupid.

Do I like it? No. Do I wish people would knock it off? Yes. Do I think it automatically counts as "trolling"? Not really.


I didn't read a generalization ABOUT Christians in that post of his. Rather, he seemed to be saying that all "smart" people should look down on Christianity. He also expressed contempt for people who follow a particular type of moral code. I think those are opinions, and that he's entitled to hold (and express) those opinions.


I would suggest you do the same. I don't happen to agree with that poster, and I can see why what he said would bother you, but I think that it's a bit silly to single him out for trolling...particularly considering the context of this thread.
It is trolling to say "you're stupid if you disagree with me". It gets dinged all the time. It's particularly mild trolling, but it's trolling. And I'm not upset because he happened to be against Christianity. I'm upset because he didn't form an argument that didn't amount to schoolyard taunting "you don't like green cause you're a stupid-head". I don't care if he includes schoolyard taunting in his posts. Personally, I find it amusing. However, he should include a, ya know, argument in there somewhere.

It is trolling to say "you're stupid if you disagree with me".

He said, "It's stupid to follow X belief system." Now, I grant you, that's not a brilliant argument, but it's also something that happens ALL THE GODDAM TIME around here. Mods need to have social lives of their own, you know. They can't be bothered for every little incident of somebody saying, "I think racism/homophobia/Christianity/Islam is stupid."

Frankly, if I was going to report every instance of somebody generalizing rudely about agnostics, I wouldn't have time to post anything else. Or eat. Or sleep.

It is silly to say that anybody who believes in a certain religion, or God, or whatever is automatically a stupid person. You can't really judge somebody like that, as you do not have their life expierences they base their beliefs on. Also, just because you do not agree with something does not necessarily make it a stupid idea. For example, to an extent, types of genocide where severely handicapped people are killed or not allowed to reproduce is logically sound... definatly not a stupid idea, but it doesn't mean that I agree with doing that for whatever reason. I'm not a Christian or Jew or Muslum, or follow any other standardized religion for that matter, however, I do believe in God. That is only because of one profound experience that I have had in my life. Before that, I was almost sure that God did not exist, or if he did, that he didn't give a shit about anything. I had this expierence, and sence then... I still don't necessarily agree with him (I call God him only because thats an accepted term to refer to it as, however I don't actually believe God has a gender at all) about everything, but it did fortify my belief in his presence. To this day, thats about all I believe in as far as that goes, but that was one thing that I could not deny... I can rationalize it sure, try to convince myself that it was just a normal dream and that what happened afterwards was all a coincidence, but I know in my heart that it was not, and I have no way of explaining why. That doesn't make me stupid.

1.Each one says all the others are wrong.
2.The bible and all its variations(Bible,Tora,etc...)are lying and we all know it.
3.God hates Hindus(Cow killing is common in the bible)
4.No one knows wich religion is right.(It would suck if you had to be Morman)
5.It screwes up everyones thinking.
6.It substituets good desisions with religios ones.
7.The members of each one push their beliefs onto others.
8. Every one knows that jesus wasn't a christian,so there is no need for that religion.(He was jewish dammit!)
9.It's waaaaaay to involved in the government.
10. EAch religoin calls the muslims infedels and murders when it was the christians who started the crusades.(IROOOONYYYYYY!!!)

*BONUS*
(FAKE)

11.Its not me being worshiped!

1) Not necessarily.
2) Who said so? Some of the things in there have been proven- and the Torah isn't really a variation of the Bible, it's the other way around.
3) God hates Hindus. Hindus are part of a religion, and they have Gods. Hindu Gods hate Hindus? Er... no. I think you're sayign that all religions are Abrahamic faiths, and Hinduism is not an Abrahamic faith like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
4) Of course not. They're all so different, but all have basically the same morals so they could all be right.
5) Religion doesn't screw up anyone's thinking. It is people who screw up people's thinking.
6) No. Once again, PEOPLE do.
7) Again, PEOPLE push their beliefs on others, not their religion.
8) Yes Jesus was Jewish, but His followers were the first Christians because they followed His teachings.
9) Yes, but that's not the fault of religion. It is the fault of PEOPLE. STUPID PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
10) "Each religion calls Muslims infidels" Islam calls its own followers infidels? Where is that in the Quran? Muslims also used murder to convert people, possibly before the Christian crusades (I may have to check again).
11) You're one of the most idiotic people I've ever met on these forums.

It is silly to say that anybody who believes in a certain religion, or God, or whatever is automatically a stupid person. You can't really judge somebody like that, as you do not have their life expierences they base their beliefs on.

That much I can agree with. We all need to remember that there are lots of people who believe in profoundly stupid things. Albert Einstein, for instance, believed it was a good idea to be a dead-beat dad (because that's exactly what he did regarding his illegitimate son). Thomas Jefferson had some deeply stupid ideas about the owning of slaves.

Even if one assumes that religion is stupid, one still must admit that it is possible for a smart person to hold stupid religious beliefs.


Also, just because you do not agree with something does not necessarily make it a stupid idea.

True. However, it also doesn't preclude that thing from being stupid.


For example, to an extent, types of genocide where severely handicapped people are killed or not allowed to reproduce is logically sound... definatly not a stupid idea, but it doesn't mean that I agree with doing that for whatever reason.

That's a whole other issue, I think. Depending on how you define it, genocide can be profoundly stupid or brilliantly clever. Neither of which necessarily makes it moral or immoral.


I'm not a Christian or Jew or Muslum, or follow any other standardized religion for that matter, however, I do believe in God. That is only because of one profound experience that I have had in my life. Before that, I was almost sure that God did not exist, or if he did, that he didn't give a shit about anything. I had this expierence, and sence then... I still don't necessarily agree with him (I call God him only because thats an accepted term to refer to it as, however I don't actually believe God has a gender at all) about everything, but it did fortify my belief in his presence. To this day, thats about all I believe in as far as that goes, but that was one thing that I could not deny... I can rationalize it sure, try to convince myself that it was just a normal dream and that what happened afterwards was all a coincidence, but I know in my heart that it was not, and I have no way of explaining why. That doesn't make me stupid.
It doesn't make you stupid, no. It's just an opinion.

However, there is a very critical line to be drawn. Yes, all people should have the right to believe what they choose, and they should feel free to express their opinions and beliefs if they want. At the same time, you cannot say, "My beliefs aren't stupid, because I believe them!" You also cannot say, "My beliefs aren't stupid, because I'm not stupid!" You also cannot say, "I had a particular unexplained experience, which means my beliefs aren't stupid!"

It's entirely possible that you are a smart person who had an unexplained experience, and that you have very strong beliefs as a result, but this does not make your beliefs immune to scrutiny. My grandfather was a very smart man who was very, very sure that changing his socks more than once a week would cause him to contract TB. This belief was stupid, even though my grandfather was not stupid and he believed in it very strongly.

Remember, smart people can believe stupid things.

1) Not necessarily.
2) Who said so? Some of the things in there have been proven- and the Torah isn't really a variation of the Bible, it's the other way around.
3) God hates Hindus. Hindus are part of a religion, and they have Gods. Hindu Gods hate Hindus? Er... no. I think you're sayign that all religions are Abrahamic faiths, and Hinduism is not an Abrahamic faith like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
4) Of course not. They're all so different, but all have basically the same morals so they could all be right.
5) Religion doesn't screw up anyone's thinking. It is people who screw up people's thinking.
6) No. Once again, PEOPLE do.
7) Again, PEOPLE push their beliefs on others, not their religion.
8) Yes Jesus was Jewish, but His followers were the first Christians because they followed His teachings.
9) Yes, but that's not the fault of religion. It is the fault of PEOPLE. STUPID PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
10) "Each religion calls Muslims infidels" Islam calls its own followers infidels? Where is that in the Quran? Muslims also used murder to convert people, possibly before the Christian crusades (I may have to check again).
11) You're one of the most idiotic people I've ever met on these forums.

Actually, with number 7, Christianity is based on trying to force their religion on other people. Not necessarily with physical force (anymore, unless you count this war in Iraq and all, which is arguable at best), but the religion is based on spreading the word of Jesus.

I think your basically right with everything else though.

That much I can agree with. We all need to remember that there are lots of people who believe in profoundly stupid things. Albert Einstein, for instance, believed it was a good idea to be a dead-beat dad (because that's exactly what he did regarding his illegitimate son). Thomas Jefferson had some deeply stupid ideas about the owning of slaves.

Even if one assumes that religion is stupid, one still must admit that it is possible for a smart person to hold stupid religious beliefs.


True. However, it also doesn't preclude that thing from being stupid.


That's a whole other issue, I think. Depending on how you define it, genocide can be profoundly stupid or brilliantly clever. Neither of which necessarily makes it moral or immoral.


It doesn't make you stupid, no. It's just an opinion.

However, there is a very critical line to be drawn. Yes, all people should have the right to believe what they choose, and they should feel free to express their opinions and beliefs if they want. At the same time, you cannot say, "My beliefs aren't stupid, because I believe them!" You also cannot say, "My beliefs aren't stupid, because I'm not stupid!" You also cannot say, "I had a particular unexplained experience, which means my beliefs aren't stupid!"

It's entirely possible that you are a smart person who had an unexplained experience, and that you have very strong beliefs as a result, but this does not make your beliefs immune to scrutiny. My grandfather was a very smart man who was very, very sure that changing his socks more than once a week would cause him to contract TB. This belief was stupid, even though my grandfather was not stupid and he believed in it very strongly.

Remember, smart people can believe stupid things.

Oh, of course, I'm not saying they can't. I was just supporting tollarance twards people who believe differently than yourself. My best friend is a die hard Christian, and I think some of the things she believes in are ludacris, but she's got a right to believe them, and I don't look down on her for that, only because I know that I believe things that some people think are stupid too. I don't know why I believe them necessarily... as in, I know I believe what I believe because I had an experience... but the specifics of it are unknown to me. You can believe 2+2=5, but that doesn't make 2+2 really equal 5. In the end its all about perception and the cumulation of your life's expierences that make up what you believe in the present as I see it. She's a Christian because something makes her feel that Christianity is true. I'm a whatever-the-hell-i-am because I had my personal expierence. Everyone else is the same way. It does not necessarily make everyone right, nor does it make everyone necessarily wrong. Slippery slope, and alot of grey area. I think sometimes, more often than the other way around, smart people believe in things that others see as silly, maybe only because others don't have a way of looking at it. Then again, the smart person could just as easily be dead wrong, but the funny part is, they could be right, and everybody would think they were an idiot for believing in it.

1.Each one says all the others are wrong.
2.The bible and all its variations(Bible,Tora,etc...)are lying and we all know it.
3.God hates Hindus(Cow killing is common in the bible)
4.No one knows wich religion is right.(It would suck if you had to be Morman)
5.It screwes up everyones thinking.
6.It substituets good desisions with religios ones.
7.The members of each one push their beliefs onto others.
8. Every one knows that jesus wasn't a christian,so there is no need for that religion.(He was jewish dammit!)
9.It's waaaaaay to involved in the government.
10. EAch religoin calls the muslims infedels and murders when it was the christians who started the crusades.(IROOOONYYYYYY!!!)

*BONUS*
(FAKE)

11.Its not me being worshiped!

1. Yes, everyone wants to be right, naturally. Hence, everybody else "must" be wrong.

2. Not really, the Bible has proven to be the most ample and accurate tool to discovery of history.

3. But what if Hindus are right (making us cow-killing satanists)?

4. I, as a MORMON (not Morman), am very confident that my church is right.

5. That it does.

6. Not always, after all, "Right" and "Wrong" stem from religion. Before we were a mindless rabble with no sense of morals til God came and gave man commandments.

7. The natural thing for man to do when he has found something good is to share it with his friends, family, and neighbors. (that is, if you think religion is good)

8. Well, I'd have to give a LONG history lesson to explain Christianity and Judaism in their proper roles, so I won't contest that.

9. No, Government is WAAAYYY too involved in Religion, not the other way round.

10. The Middle East (from Bagdhad to Algiers) was primarily Christian, and was forced to Islam as it spread it's religion by the sword, and Europe reacted by sending armies to reclaim what they'd lost. Muslims were the provokers of the Crusades, not the other way around.

And as for that last one, well, that can't be helped unless you go look up your local, state, and national law on formations of churches, in which case, you may legally organize your own church and name yourself god of it. Let me know when it's organized.

Well, all religions are (by definition) man made, ergo...."fake". Although the first poster wasnt quite on with his/her spelling...the arguments were clean enough.

Well, all religions are (by definition) man made, ergo...."fake". Although the first poster wasnt quite on with his/her spelling...the arguments were clean enough.

Why must a man made religion be fake?

Why must a man made religion be fake?

True Religion come straight from God. However, most religions were not directly from God, hence, the assumption that "religion" is man-made has some truth to it.

He said, "It's stupid to follow X belief system." Now, I grant you, that's not a brilliant argument, but it's also something that happens ALL THE GODDAM TIME around here. Mods need to have social lives of their own, you know. They can't be bothered for every little incident of somebody saying, "I think racism/homophobia/Christianity/Islam is stupid."

Frankly, if I was going to report every instance of somebody generalizing rudely about agnostics, I wouldn't have time to post anything else. Or eat. Or sleep.

I'm amused how you put racism and homophobia next to Christianity and Islam. No bias there. You should recognize that grossly generalizing about a group in order to say derogatory and inaccurate statements about that group is very similar to racism. What he said was essentially equal to say "all black people are stupid".

Only stupid people think following outdated "morality" (which is different for each person, so it can't be legislated) in order to gain access to a better world after death.

Meanwhile, I think I should point out that the person who claimed that enforcing morality is only done by stupid people said this -

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11385380&postcount=875
I wish the forum moderators would close down this illegal and repulsive pedophile forums, irregardless of what the Netherlands is doing nowadays.

And the 105 people who agree to legalize it should be reported to the police in their native countries.

Apparently people should not enforce their subjective morality but at the same time people who don't view pedophilia exactly the way he'd like them to should be reported to the authorities. Nothing like a bit of consistency.

Not to mention the 105 people he referred to never voted to legalize pedophilia and basically it wasn't even discussed in the thread in any way.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/Colodia/1153257956021.jpg
Seriously...

Yes,veggietariens.founded in china.

Wow. So I guess Gautama Buddha wasn't actually skinny Indian warrior who became an ascetic, but rather a fat, bald, Chinese man.

OK,Why have the Christian religoin? Judiasim was there first and it said the exact same thing minus Jesus.

Why even have Protestantism? Catholicism was there first, and it said the same exact same thing PLUS the Pope!

Who doesn't love old guys in hats?

1) Not necessarily.
2) Who said so? Some of the things in there have been proven- and the Torah isn't really a variation of the Bible, it's the other way around.
3) God hates Hindus. Hindus are part of a religion, and they have Gods. Hindu Gods hate Hindus? Er... no. I think you're sayign that all religions are Abrahamic faiths, and Hinduism is not an Abrahamic faith like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
4) Of course not. They're all so different, but all have basically the same morals so they could all be right.
5) Religion doesn't screw up anyone's thinking. It is people who screw up people's thinking.
6) No. Once again, PEOPLE do.
7) Again, PEOPLE push their beliefs on others, not their religion.
8) Yes Jesus was Jewish, but His followers were the first Christians because they followed His teachings.
9) Yes, but that's not the fault of religion. It is the fault of PEOPLE. STUPID PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
10) "Each religion calls Muslims infidels" Islam calls its own followers infidels? Where is that in the Quran? Muslims also used murder to convert people, possibly before the Christian crusades (I may have to check again). 11) You're one of the most idiotic people I've ever met on these forums.

You are correct. Prior to the Crusades, Islam was spread primarily "by the sword," conquering vast swathes of land and peoples and spreading religion in their wake. Even after the crusades, the same was true. The Ottoman Empire made enormous conquests in the fifteenth centuries.

You are correct. Prior to the Crusades, Islam was spread primarily "by the sword," conquering vast swathes of land and peoples and spreading religion in their wake. Even after the crusades, the same was true. The Ottoman Empire made enormous conquests in the fifteenth centuries.

Each religion was a product of the culture it was created in. Often the religion represents some ideal, but over time that ideal tends to be compromised so the religion can coexist with the culture.

Islam developed in a turbulent warring culture. If it had been less violent it would not converted the tribal chiefs. It would likely have resulted in the culture being enslaved.

The world has changed a great deal since then, but few religions have really responded to the modern era. Look how they handle birth control, and the sexual revolution?

Each religion was a product of the culture it was created in. Often the religion represents some ideal, but over time that ideal tends to be compromised so the religion can coexist with the culture.

Islam developed in a turbulent warring culture. If it had been less violent it would not converted the tribal chiefs. It would likely have resulted in the culture being enslaved.

The world has changed a great deal since then, but few religions have really responded to the modern era. Look how they handle birth control, and the sexual revolution?

Most Christians have handled birth control and the sexual revolution quite well. Islam, on the other hand, is stuck in the tenth century, and hasn't progressed since then.

1. Yes, everyone wants to be right, naturally. Hence, everybody else "must" be wrong.

2. Not really, the Bible has proven to be the most ample and accurate tool to discovery of history.

3. But what if Hindus are right (making us cow-killing satanists)?

4. I, as a MORMON (not Morman), am very confident that my church is right.

5. That it does.

6. Not always, after all, "Right" and "Wrong" stem from religion. Before we were a mindless rabble with no sense of morals til God came and gave man commandments.

7. The natural thing for man to do when he has found something good is to share it with his friends, family, and neighbors. (that is, if you think religion is good)

8. Well, I'd have to give a LONG history lesson to explain Christianity and Judaism in their proper roles, so I won't contest that.

9. No, Government is WAAAYYY too involved in Religion, not the other way round.

10. The Middle East (from Bagdhad to Algiers) was primarily Christian, and was forced to Islam as it spread it's religion by the sword, and Europe reacted by sending armies to reclaim what they'd lost. Muslims were the provokers of the Crusades, not the other way around.

And as for that last one, well, that can't be helped unless you go look up your local, state, and national law on formations of churches, in which case, you may legally organize your own church and name yourself god of it. Let me know when it's organized.
Ok, first of all, the Muslims of the Islamic Empire did not "spread their religion by the sword". Yes, they conquered in the name of religion. But it was not accepted practice to force somebody to convert. And although the Middle East wasn't heavily Christian even before the Arab conquerors, there were still many Jews and Christians living in the Middle East under the Islamic Empire. However, a lot of them got killed off BY THE CRUSADERS.

As for 9, I'm not sure what country you're living in, but in the US (where many Mormons live), there is almost no government involvement in religion. It's called the First Amendment.

Most Christians have handled birth control and the sexual revolution quite well. Islam, on the other hand, is stuck in the tenth century, and hasn't progressed since then.

Um, well then Most Christians aren't following the lead set by their church officials. The official policy of most Christian demoninations discourage birth control, homosexuality, women clergy, cross dressing etc.