Israel Invades!!!! [Archive] - Page 4

East of Eden is Nod

28-06-2006, 21:15

Greater Valinor already told you about Abraham so I'm not going to bother with it now.

Greater Valinor only told what he believes or what was indoctrinated. I don't give anything on that.

I have. He gave it to them.

Exodus 32
The Golden Calf

1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [a] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."

2 Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. [c] Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

7 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'

9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."

11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.

17 When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, "There is the sound of war in the camp."

18 Moses replied:
"It is not the sound of victory,
it is not the sound of defeat;
it is the sound of singing that I hear."

19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20 And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

21 He said to Aaron, "What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"

22 "Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered. "You know how prone these people are to evil. 23 They said to me, 'Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' 24 So I told them, 'Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.' Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!"

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin."

35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

Exodus 34
The [B]New Stone Tablets

1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain."

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "O Lord, if I have found favor in your eyes," he said, "then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."

10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. [a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

17 "Do not make cast idols.

18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
"No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. [b] 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.

25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
"Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 21:17

Nice try. You can believe that Abraham was a Jew, but there is nothing to substantiate that claim.
Well, someone surely gave the ten commandments to the Jews, but definitely not god and not in the timeframe of the exodus.

LOL...the Torah chronicles all the events we are talking about. Abraham was the first Jew, he was commanded by G-d to go from the land he came from to where G-d will show him etc..he was commanded by G-d to be circumsized etc...Abraham was the first Jew and the Torah substantiates it.

The Torah also chronicles the events of the Exodus which explicitly state the number of days following the Exodus (50) that the Torah (including the 10 commandments) was given to the Jewish people.

The Jewish nation existed before the giving of the Torah and before the exodus. The Jewish people witnessed the Exodus and the giving of the commandments and the Torah and have passed it down for generations up until the present day.

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:17

Umm yea.... nice try with that. You do realize that Moses destroye the 1st stone tablets given to him by God because his people were worshipping a false God right? They are the same 10 Commandents dude.

East of Eden is Nod

28-06-2006, 21:20

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:20

The commandments are not the same.

Yes they are.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 21:20

Greater Valinor only told what he believes or what was indoctrinated. I don't give anything on that.

Exodus 34
The New Stone Tablets

1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain."

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "O Lord, if I have found favor in your eyes," he said, "then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."

10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. [a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

17 "Do not make cast idols.

18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
"No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. [b] 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.

25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
"Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

You're referring to the second giving of the 10 commandments after Moses broke the first set upon seeing the worshipping of the golden calf. The first giving of the physical tablets occured on Shavuot, 50 days after the Exodus, hence why Jews specifically count the number of days between Passover and Shavuot.

The second giving took place on Yom Kippur

East of Eden is Nod

28-06-2006, 21:21

LOL...the Torah chronicles all the events we are talking about. Abraham was the first Jew, he was commanded by G-d to go from the land he came from to where G-d will show him etc..he was commanded by G-d to be circumsized etc...Abraham was the first Jew and the Torah substantiates it.

The Torah also chronicles the events of the Exodus which explicitly state the number of days following the Exodus (50) that the Torah (including the 10 commandments) was given to the Jewish people.

The Jewish nation existed before the giving of the Torah and before the exodus. The Jewish people witnessed the Exodus and the giving of the commandments and the Torah and have passed it down for generations up until the present day.

Bla bla bla. Just faith, no facts.
The Torah substantiates nothing. The Torah is in no way a reliable source on actual ancient beliefs. As I said, there is not a single text or artefact to corroborate any theological aspect of the Torah. In fact there is not even a text of the Torah on paper, stone, or whatever predating the Septuaginta.
.

Vernii

28-06-2006, 21:24

Yeah, because blowing several bridges and a power plant, THE ONLY POWER PLANT in the region, is going to rescue the soldier. The status of the israeli soldier is more important than the needs of thousands of palestines, wow.

Yes, he is more important than thousands of Palestinians. The Palestinians don't matter, are they Israeli citizens? NO. They are the enemy in this scenario, and what happens to the enemy DOES NOT MATTER.

The Palestinians are one of the most wretched peoples on Earth, who are in love with their own victimization complex and actively try to bite any hand that feeds them. Jordan took in Palestinian refugees and later expelled them. Do you know why? BECAUSE THEY TRIED TO OVERTHROW THE VERY GOVERNMENT THAT TOOK THEM IN.

They know no such thing as gratitude, and they expect the rest of the world to cater to their whims or else they'll bitch and whine and export more explosions and sand.

They'd be better off under Israeli control.

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:24

You're referring to the second giving of the 10 commandments after Moses broke the first set upon seeing the worshipping of the golden calf. The first giving of the physical tablets occured on Shavuot, 50 days after the Exodus, hence why Jews specifically count the number of days between Passover and Shavuot.

The second giving took place on Yom Kippur

Kinda beat ya to the part about the golden calf but thanks for the other information :)

Norasea

28-06-2006, 21:24

Israel is the only nation that I would fight for.
It even set up nice apartment buildings in Gaza to get Palestinians who were stricken with poverty to have a higher standard of living and for them to get out of the slums.
Only one family moved in, and they were killed by Palestinian terrorists -_-

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:25

Bla bla bla. Just faith, no facts.
The Torah substantiates nothing. The Torah is in no way a rliable source on actual ancient beliefs. As I said, there is not a single text or artefact to corroborate any theological aspect of the Torah.

And yet there is a book about archeological evidence in support of the bible. You can find it in any book store.

Yootopia

28-06-2006, 21:26

Israel is the only nation that I would fight for.
Why?
It even set up nice apartment buildings in Gaza to get Palestinians who were stricken with poverty to have a higher standard of living and for them to get out of the slums.
They were built for Israelis, it would simply have been a waste of time and money to knock them down when they left.
Only one family moved in, and they were killed by Palestinian terrorists -_-
The Palestinians are understandably pissed off, and if it was an Isreali family who moved in, then they really brought it upon themselves.

East of Eden is Nod

28-06-2006, 21:27

And yet there is a book about archeological evidence in support of the bible. You can find it in any book store.

There is no such book since there is no such evidence. Ask Israel Finkelstein.
.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 21:27

Bla bla bla. Just faith, no facts.
The Torah substantiates nothing. The Torah is in no way a rliable source on actual ancient beliefs. As I said, there is not a single text or artefact to corroborate any theological aspect of the Torah.

The Torah itself is the text that validates its truth. The fact that there is no similar texts validates the truth of the Torah because the chronicle is unique to the Jewish people. Even if there was another text dated back from that time, you woul dprob claim it to be hogwash.

The land of Israel is a testament to the Torah, as all the places specified in the Torah and all the landmarks exist; i.e. Abraham Isaac and Jacobs tomb (maarat hamachpelah) in Hebron amongst the various other ancient sites...Jericho...etc...

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:27

Why?

They were built for Israelis, it would simply have been a waste of time and money to knock them down when they left.

The Palestinians are understandably pissed off, and if it was an Isreali family who moved in, then they really brought it upon themselves.

Oh brother. :rolleyes:

No one deserves to be blown up by a friggin terrorist. Do you agree with that?

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:28

There is no such book since there is no such evidence. Ask Israel Finkelstein.
.

Oh Bullshit. There is too a book for I have seen the book.

Kronstadtia

28-06-2006, 21:29

Yes, he is more important than thousands of Palestinians. The Palestinians don't matter, are they Israeli citizens? NO. They are the enemy in this scenario, and what happens to the enemy DOES NOT MATTER.

The Palestinians are one of the most wretched peoples on Earth, who are in love with their own victimization complex and actively try to bite any hand that feeds them. Jordan took in Palestinian refugees and later expelled them. Do you know why? BECAUSE THEY TRIED TO OVERTHROW THE VERY GOVERNMENT THAT TOOK THEM IN.

They know no such thing as gratitude, and they expect the rest of the world to cater to their whims or else they'll bitch and whine and export more explosions and sand.

They'd be better off under Israeli control.

Like Slavonic "untermensch" were better off under German control? You have learnt nothing from history, have you? If you've ever read it, that is.

People like you are exactly the reason why there will never be peace on this Earth. "They're enemies, they don't matter"... Don't blame the Palestinians for suicide bombing Jews then. Or Saudi's flying planes at tall buildings.

East of Eden is Nod

28-06-2006, 21:29

The Torah itself is the text that validates its truth. The fact that there is no similar texts validates the truth of the Torah because the chronicle is unique to the Jewish people. Even if there was another text dated back from that time, you woul dprob claim it to be hogwash.

The land of Israel is a testament to the Torah, as all the places specified in the Torah and all the landmarks exist; i.e. Abraham Isaac and Jacobs tomb (maarat hamachpelah) in Hebron amongst the various other ancient sites...Jericho...etc...

Abraham Isaac and Jacobs tombs may exist but that says nothing about what faith they had. Ancient sites refered in the bible do of course exist, but no-one in these sites ever worshipped Yah in a Jewish manner.

Norasea

28-06-2006, 21:31

Bla bla bla. Just faith, no facts.
The Torah substantiates nothing. The Torah is in no way a rliable source on actual ancient beliefs. As I said, there is not a single text or artefact to corroborate any theological aspect of the Torah.

Most Israelis are either Agnostics or Atheists, they are only Jewish by culture.

Don't be bound by prejudice, even uberreligious lieubavich rabbis have said it doesnt matter if you believe in god or not, as long as you do the right thing [Tikkun Olam---> respecting and bettering the world].

The Palestinians aren't even an ethnic group.
It's funny how most Arab Nations want their to be a Palestine, but won't even allow Palestinians into their own lands.

Palestine was a name given to the land by the British to piss the Jews off, because Palestine is an angloized version of the word Phillistine, whos people were the Hebrews enemies centuries before. The Palestinian people arent related to the Phillistines, and are just a mix of all the neighboring countries.

P.S. Israel isn't just a huge mass of Jews, theirs patriotic Christians, patriotic NeoPagans, patriotic Bedouin, patriotic Hindus, and other patriotic ethnic groups.

This is only seen as a religious conflict on one side. Guess who.

Yootopia

28-06-2006, 21:32

Oh brother. :rolleyes:

No one deserves to be blown up by a friggin terrorist. Do you agree with that?
Nope. I don't agree with that. If you bring it upon yourself, then you fully deserve it.

Norasea

28-06-2006, 21:32

Why?

They were built for Israelis, it would simply have been a waste of time and money to knock them down when they left.

The Palestinians are understandably pissed off, and if it was an Isreali family who moved in, then they really brought it upon themselves.

No. It was built for Palestinians. A Palestinian family moved in, and they [the Palestinian family] was killed by Palestinian terrorists.

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:33

Nope. I don't agree with that. If you bring it upon yourself, then you fully deserve it.

Then you are a sad individual if you support terrorism.

Vernii

28-06-2006, 21:34

Like Slavonic "untermensch" were better off under German control? You have learnt nothing from history, have you? If you've ever read it, that is.

People like you are exactly the reason why there will never be peace on this Earth. "They're enemies, they don't matter"... Don't blame the Palestinians for suicide bombing Jews then. Or Saudi's flying planes at tall buildings.

It's true though. Just like how India improved under Britain's rule, the Palestinians could definitely use some first-world imperialism.

The only reason there isn't peace in the Middle East is because the Palestinians don't want it. They want it all, and that isn't going to happen, and they won't accept it.

I can't believe anyone would support a people who's government ACTIVELY ADVOCATES GENOCIDE, and sends suicide bombers to target hospitals and restaurants!

Are you people that stupid? Hamas doesn't like you, and it never will, it just wants you to give it money so it can continue to finance its little war against civilization.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 21:34

Abraham Isaac and Jacobs tombs may exist but that says nothing about what faith they had. Ancient sites refered in the bible do of course exist, but no-one in these sites ever worshipped Yah in a Jewish manner.

Yes, they did. Jacobs son was Joseph who moved the Israelites to Egypt where they prospered and became a large nation who then left Egypt and became the Israelite Kingdom which was then exiled etc etc etc...all HISTORY. The Jewish people today are the same Jews that walked the earth thousands of years ago.

Teh_pantless_hero

28-06-2006, 21:35

I'm not saying it's unbiased.

But if people are saying, "well it belongs to the Palestinians because they were there first..."
Yeah, a land contract between a man and his religious diety of choice is definately overriding of historical precedent (I'm not saying there is a historical precedent, I am just mocking the ridiculousness of the claim)

Yootopia

28-06-2006, 21:35

Then you are a sad individual if you support terrorism.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:36

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Except when they are blowing up civilians for no good reason than because they are a different religion than they are.

Yootopia

28-06-2006, 21:36

Except when they are blowing up civilians for no good reason than because they are a different religion than they are.
Religion is just a façade to what they're doing to be honest.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 21:37

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Freedom fighters don't strap bombs to themselves and blow up civilians in mini-malls and night clubs. Terrorist animals do that.

Vernii

28-06-2006, 21:40

Freedom fighters don't strap bombs to themselves and blow up civilians in mini-malls and night clubs. Terrorist animals do that.

Precisely. The Palestinians should be treated like humans...when they act like humans.

East of Eden is Nod

28-06-2006, 21:42

Yes, they did. Jacobs son was Joseph who moved the Israelites to Egypt where they prospered and became a large nation who then left Egypt and became the Israelite Kingdom which was then exiled etc etc etc...all HISTORY. The Jewish people today are the same Jews that walked the earth thousands of years ago.

Yes, I have heard those stories in kindergarden, but I have learned much about all this since then. Although there is a historical core to these events the whole story is a lie nevertheless. The hebrews e.a. leaving Egypt were sun-worshippers, just as David and Solomon were later.

Corneliu

28-06-2006, 21:45

Yootopia

28-06-2006, 21:47

Freedom fighters don't strap bombs to themselves and blow up civilians in mini-malls and night clubs. Terrorist animals do that.
In your opinion.

Since the Israelis appear happy to plunge Gaza into darkness and blow up bridges, which is going to kill people who need to get to hospitals/can't get treated in them because of the lack of electricity, that pretty much makes Israeli civilians fair game in my eyes.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 21:49

Yes, I have heard those stories in kindergarden, but I have learned much about all this since then. Although there is a historical core to these events the whole story is a lie nevertheless. The hebrews e.a. leaving Egypt were sun-worshippers, just as David and Solomon were later.

They were worshippers of the one and only G-d. To say otherwise is ridiculous conspiracy theory. David and Solomon worshipped this same one G-d. The Jewish G-d has no image. Go read prophets and Kings.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 21:52

In your opinion.

Since the Israelis appear happy to plunge Gaza into darkness and blow up bridges, which is going to kill people who need to get to hospitals/can't get treated in them because of the lack of electricity, that pretty much makes Israeli civilians fair game in my eyes.

In any good persons opinion blowing up civilians minding their own business is considered wrong.

It is in the opinion of rapists that as long as they feel the urge to rape its ok...but thats just their opinion. Give me a break..the slaughter of innocent life is deplorable and there is no excuse for it at all whatsoever.

Gaza is in darkness because the palestinian terrorists kidnapped an Israeli soldier and are holding him hostage. this soldier was not in Palestinian territory nor was he attacking anyone; he was simply guarding the border of his country. If they want the lights back on, release the soldier.

Vernii

28-06-2006, 21:55

Gaza is in darkness because the palestinian terrorists kidnapped an Israeli soldier and are holding him hostage. this soldier was not in Palestinian territory nor was he attacking anyone; he was simply guarding the border of his country. If they want the lights back on, release the soldier.

It's not just him anymore. They've also abducted two civilians since the soldier was abducted.

Teh_pantless_hero

28-06-2006, 22:01

Gaza is in darkness because the palestinian terrorists kidnapped an Israeli soldier and are holding him hostage. this soldier was not in Palestinian territory nor was he attacking anyone; he was simply guarding the border of his country. If they want the lights back on, release the soldier.
No, Gaza is in darkness because Israel blatantly attacked infrastructure under the guise of getting back their kidnapped soldier. Blowing up bridges and power stations are not needed to carry out recovery strikes.

Farnhamia

28-06-2006, 22:03

No, Gaza is in darkness because Israel blatantly attacked infrastructure under the guise of getting back their kidnapped soldier. Blowing up bridges and power stations are not needed to carry out recovery strikes.

Maybe not but they get your attention, don't they?

Has anyone in Gaza considered the point that if the soldier hadn't been kidnapped, they wouldn't be sitting in the dark? I get so tired of this. One of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 22:04

Deep Kimchi

28-06-2006, 22:05

Maybe not but they get your attention, don't they?

Has anyone in Gaza considered the point that if the soldier hadn't been kidnapped, they wouldn't be sitting in the dark? I get so tired of this. One of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

I think that everyone on both sides gets psychologically attached to the drama of these events. To them, although they appear pained or upset, they are all really enjoying the adrenaline rush of being either the cat or the mouse.

Teh_pantless_hero

28-06-2006, 22:08

I question the working up over a soldier. It just seems like a convenient excuse to assault Gaza. If he had been shot in a firefight and left there, this wouldn't be happening. Too convenient.

Farnhamia

28-06-2006, 22:09

I think that everyone on both sides gets psychologically attached to the drama of these events. To them, although they appear pained or upset, they are all really enjoying the adrenaline rush of being either the cat or the mouse.

I hadn't thought of that. If international ... dare I say it? ... hatred is a natural high, humanity is in deep trouble.

Greater Valinor

28-06-2006, 22:21

I think that everyone on both sides gets psychologically attached to the drama of these events. To them, although they appear pained or upset, they are all really enjoying the adrenaline rush of being either the cat or the mouse.

Jews don't work that way. Jews don't get off on other peoples suffering, or the adrenaline of playing cat and mouse.

and I don't wanna hear all that "but most Israelis are secular" because that doesn't matter, regardless of how religious you are, Jews are brought up wiht Jewish values and those values don't condone that.

Kothuwania

28-06-2006, 22:24

Yootopia

28-06-2006, 22:26

Gaza is in darkness because the palestinian terrorists kidnapped an Israeli soldier and are holding him hostage. this soldier was not in Palestinian territory nor was he attacking anyone; he was simply guarding the border of his country. If they want the lights back on, release the soldier.
Rather seems like collective punishment if you ask me. And I imagine that he's already been executed by his hostage-takers.

Nodinia

28-06-2006, 22:53

I think that everyone on both sides gets psychologically attached to the drama of these events. To them, although they appear pained or upset, they are all really enjoying the adrenaline rush of being either the cat or the mouse.

Though the fact that this mouse has no hole to hide in worthy of the name sort of ruins the analogy, it is true to say that there are those on both sides who have become, without realising it, addicted to the "buzz". Should the extrenal threat to either end, there will be doubtless a rise in criminality on both sides.

Nodinia

28-06-2006, 22:57

Jews don't work that way. Jews don't get off on other peoples suffering, or the adrenaline of playing cat and mouse.

and I don't wanna hear all that "but most Israelis are secular" because that doesn't matter, regardless of how religious you are, Jews are brought up wiht Jewish values and those values don't condone that.

On the Palestinian side, there are some violent, nasty people, who really the world and the Palestinians would be better off without. They would probably be much the way they are without the occupation, but the violence actually allows them to flourish. You could say the same about the Americans in Iraq. Or the Kurds.

Now precisely why would the IDF and Israel be exempt from this fact of human society?

Nodinia

28-06-2006, 23:02

And yet there is a book about archeological evidence in support of the bible. You can find it in any book store.

Yes, as a door jam.

Deep Kimchi

28-06-2006, 23:36

I hadn't thought of that. If international ... dare I say it? ... hatred is a natural high, humanity is in deep trouble.

Contrary to a lot of popular opinion, a fair number of people find killing quite stimulating. It was alluded to by Hemingway.

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."

Neu Leonstein

29-06-2006, 02:21

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 02:26

Did you ignore the legal rulings on that very sentence I posted for you? It states that "territories" must be returned. Not all of them. That was left that way quite explictly, as described by those who drafted UN Resolution 242. I'll go ahead and post it for you, again:

Now remember, these are all references to this one line, the line you mentioned - Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.

Also keep in mind that Lord Caradon and George Brown were the ones who drafted it. Lets see what everyone, including the UN Ambassador, says this sentence means:

Hopefully that clears it up for you. Those involved in the drafting have stated that it only refers to territorial withdrawl, not a full withdrawl from all territories. And that, Iraqiya, is the current legal ruling on the issue.

yes, the territories that were occupied, ie, the west bank, gaza strip, and east jerusalem. i am sure you know that the collective term for those areas is the "occupied territories." these are the territories that have to be withdrawn from. Never did it say some, it said all. If it was only some, then they could just give back 1 sq km and that would be considered fair. Obviously that is not the case.

I wonder what would happen if Iraq only had to withdraw from "some" of Kuwait, it is not really that fair or just is it?

Deep Kimchi

29-06-2006, 13:19

I read something today that shocked me a little. A German satirist (I think he's Jewish BTW) has written something serious. And if that guy writes something serious, then something is wrong.
Here it is: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,424152,00.html

While this (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1540341/posts) is his normal work.

This is excellent stuff, and right on point.

One of the basic rules in any democracy is that a new government accepts the treaties made by the old. Germany's Christian Democrats, for example, didn't annul the agreements struck by Social Democrat Chancellor Willy Brandt with East Bloc countries in the 1960s even if, when in opposition, they did everything in their power to torpedo the policy.

For Hamas, however, such rules don't seem to apply. The "prisoners' document" is a paper that is supposed to re-establish and solidify the "national unity" of the Palestinians. Inferring therein a recognition of Israel -- no matter how indirect or implicit it may be -- merely shows a tendency toward self-delusion. Nobody has yet seen the entire paper, but those bits that have been released are just as incoherent as they are explicit. And everything is discussed. Indeed, the only thing that doesn't appear is any mention of a recognition of Israel -- neither in pre nor in post 1967 borders. Only one conclusion can be drawn: Even after 40 years of occupation, the Palestinians have still not accepted reality and still dream of a return to the way things used to be.

Indeed, if there is a clear message provided by the paper, it is this: The Palestinians do indeed want a two-state solution. One in those regions -- the Gaza Strip and the West Bank -- occupied in 1967. And one in that region that is today known as Israel. One shouldn't forget that the PLO was founded in 1964 with the goal of freeing Palestine from the Zionists -- three years prior to the Six Day War when Gaza was still under Egyptian control and the West Bank was a part of Jordan.

Either complete victory or utter defeat

Back then, talking about the "Occupied Territories" meant Haifa, Tel Aviv and Beer-Sheva. And in this respect nothing has really changed to this day. The only difference between Hamas and Fatah -- which is overlooked by "the document" -- is the question of how Israel should be defeated: either militarily or through the implementation of a "right of return" policy. Israel therefore has the choice as to whether it is wiped from the map either in battle, or by peaceful means. Whoever hopes Israel will embrace these two alternatives is kidding themselves: there is no third possibility.

Nodinia

29-06-2006, 13:38

No one deserves to be blown up by a friggin terrorist. Do you agree with that?

Nope, particularily given the "freedom fighter/terrorist" argument. I don't agree with the targeting of civillians however, as a general rule.

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 15:16

Deep Kimchi

29-06-2006, 15:20

Also, in democracies, you do not have to honour the treaties of previous governments. The CDU did not withdraw the treaty because it was not in their best interest, it would cause too much opposition for it to be worth it. However Hamas, now in power, can withdraw any treaties it wants if approved by Parliament.

It's usually something that destroys the credibility of your government.

Look at the stink that happened when the US withdrew from the ABM treaty. It really hurts your relations with other nations to do so.

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 15:23

It's usually something that destroys the credibility of your government.

Look at the stink that happened when the US withdrew from the ABM treaty. It really hurts your relations with other nations to do so.

It sure does, thats what I was talking about regardinig the CDUs best interest. however it has nothing to do with being democratic, a democracy can withdraw from a previous treaty.

Tropical Sands

29-06-2006, 15:26

Well Fatah has all the right to have a right of return policy, for 2 reasons.

A: It has its own country, with its own laws, and right of return can be one of them.

B: Israel solidified and cemented its permanent position in the middle east by having a right of return policy for jews.

Right now, there is no Palestinian country. So they don't really have that right. But, if Palestine becomes a country, I would agree that they have the right to a 'right of return' policy like Israel. If Palestinians achieve statehood and want to let any Palestinian refugees return to Palestine, thats great.

However, A will never happen because Israel wants to control any Palestinian state, resulting in a de facto occupation and only an independant state on paper. B is a non point because Israel is a hipocrite that does not allow nations to use policies it invented against them.

It will probably never happen because Palestinians don't want to live in Palestine. They have consistently tried to live in Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. Even today, the Palestinian towns on the Green Line are all attempting to become part of Israel.

Also, in democracies, you do not have to honour the treaties of previous governments. The CDU did not withdraw the treaty because it was not in their best interest, it would cause too much opposition for it to be worth it. However Hamas, now in power, can withdraw any treaties it wants if approved by Parliament.

In fact, a government doesn't even have to honor the treaties of its current government. It just makes your country look like a bunch of lying scumbags who can't be trusted. Just like if a government doesn't honor the treaties of its predecessors. This is one reason why Palestinians aren't trusted in their treaties, because they don't honor previous ones (like the ones the PLO made).

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 15:31

Right now, there is no Palestinian country. So they don't really have that right. But, if Palestine becomes a country, I would agree that they have the right to a 'right of return' policy like Israel. If Palestinians achieve statehood and want to let any Palestinian refugees return to Palestine, thats great.

It will probably never happen because Palestinians don't want to live in Palestine. They have consistently tried to live in Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. Even today, the Palestinian towns on the Green Line are all attempting to become part of Israel.

In fact, a government doesn't even have to honor the treaties of its current government. It just makes your country look like a bunch of lying scumbags who can't be trusted. Just like if a government doesn't honor the treaties of its predecessors. This is one reason why Palestinians aren't trusted in their treaties, because they don't honor previous ones (like the ones the PLO made).

yes, I was speaking about when Palestine becomes its own country. One of the reasons the Camp David Accords failed was because of the right of return issue, Israel, even after a Palestinian state, did not want all Palestinians to have a right of return.

Millions of Palestinians want to be part of Palestine, they simply do not want to live in an area which is unstable and unsafe. lest we forget that 78% of gaza has no power or water, which was knocked out in seconds by Israel and would take 6 months and $20 million to fix, $20 million the PA does not have. Also, are these the same towns governed by Hamas?

Maybe if they had their own state, they could be more stable, and could have consistent treaties.

New Burmesia

29-06-2006, 15:40

Maybe if they had their own state, they could be more stable, and could have consistent treaties.

Exactly, although such a state would require extensive policing by UN forces to deestablish terror networks. However, this would be much easier under independence than under occupation, since half the battle is winning the hearts and minds of Palestinian citizens, not just fighting terrorists.

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 15:44

Exactly, although such a state would require extensive policing by UN forces to deestablish terror networks. However, this would be much easier under independence than under occupation, since half the battle is winning the hearts and minds of Palestinian citizens, not just fighting terrorists.

The hearts and minds of the Palestinians elected terrorists to be their leaders. No denying that. Peace is not on their agenda, Hamas' goal is clear: Israels destruction.

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 15:48

Exactly, although such a state would require extensive policing by UN forces to deestablish terror networks. However, this would be much easier under independence than under occupation, since half the battle is winning the hearts and minds of Palestinian citizens, not just fighting terrorists.

If Israel did not destroy the Palestinian security infrastructure in 2002 i'm sure the terrorist groups would be alot weaker than they are now.

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 15:48

yes, I was speaking about when Palestine becomes its own country. One of the reasons the Camp David Accords failed was because of the right of return issue, Israel, even after a Palestinian state, did not want all Palestinians to have a right of return.

Millions of Palestinians want to be part of Palestine, they simply do not want to live in an area which is unstable and unsafe. lest we forget that 78% of gaza has no power or water, which was knocked out in seconds by Israel and would take 6 months and $20 million to fix, $20 million the PA does not have. Also, are these the same towns governed by Hamas?

Maybe if they had their own state, they could be more stable, and could have consistent treaties.

The right of return of Palestinians to Israel is a ridiculous dream that will never come true. All the right of return is, is a way to win this war witout guns, but by breeding the Jews out. Eventually the palestininans will have a majority and Israel will no longer be a Jewish state but a Hamastic Islamic Republic.

The area is unstable and unsafe because their leaders launch terror attacks and plan terror amongst civilian populations. They also care nothing for the safety of their own people as they refuse to stop funding and orchestrating terrorism, or in the least trying to rope in the terrorists that so many people have been claiming are "unaffiliated" with the Hamas political wing. The truth is, they are all connected, and all have the same plan and the same goal.

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 15:51

The right of return of Palestinians to Israel is a ridiculous dream that will never come true. All the right of return is, is a way to win this war witout guns, but by breeding the Jews out. Eventually the palestininans will have a majority and Israel will no longer be a Jewish state but a Hamastic Islamic Republic.

The area is unstable and unsafe because their leaders launch terror attacks and plan terror amongst civilian populations. They also care nothing for the safety of their own people as they refuse to stop funding and orchestrating terrorism, or in the least trying to rope in the terrorists that so many people have been claiming are "unaffiliated" with the Hamas political wing. The truth is, they are all connected, and all have the same plan and the same goal.

So you're saying that the millions of Palestinians who have waited a generation to return home should be denied that right because then they will show the Palestinian-Israeli numbers for what they are?

It is quite a stretch to say that a 60 year old conflict has nothing to do with an unstable region, but a recently elected government does.

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 15:52

If Israel did not destroy the Palestinian security infrastructure in 2002 i'm sure the terrorist groups would be alot weaker than they are now.

If Israel had not given over control of the territories to the terrorist PLO at Oslo, the terrorists would not have been able to grow as they have. But you give a little to the Pals, and they just try to find a way to use it to destroy Israel.

Israel would not have used violence against the Pals in 2002 at all if the Palestinians had not started the second intifada and launched a massie suicide bombing and terror campaign.

A few months after Camp David failed in 2000, Arafat returned back to the territories and launched the intifada...it was all planned out...look as if you are about to make peace and accept Baraks silver plattered offer, but then quickly pull out of talks, and begin fighting.

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 15:54

If Israel had not given over control of the territories to the terrorist PLO at Oslo, the terrorists would not have been able to grow as they have. But you give a little to the Pals, and they just try to find a way to use it to destroy Israel.

Israel would not have used violence against the Pals in 2002 at all if the Palestinians had not started the second intifada and launched a massie suicide bombing and terror campaign.

A few months after Camp David failed in 2000, Arafat returned back to the territories and launched the intifada...it was all planned out...look as if you are about to make peace and accept Baraks silver plattered offer, but then quickly pull out of talks, and begin fighting.

But israel was telling the PA to hunt down the terrorists, while destroying the exact force required to hunt them down.

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 15:55

So you're saying that the millions of Palestinians who have waited a generation to return home should be denied that right because then they will show the Palestinian-Israeli numbers for what they are?

It is quite a stretch to say that a 60 year old conflict has nothing to do with an unstable region, but a recently elected government does.

First of all, the original Palestinians who were displaced, which numbered roughly 700,000 in '48 are mostly dead now and the probably estimates are around 300,000 or less at this point. The Pals are the only "refugees" in the world that classify the children and grandchildren of original refugees as refugees.

Numbers for what they are? If there is a Palestinian state, let as many Palestinians flood their borders and start building a viable state, but they will never be given the right to return within Israel proper...last time I checked Israel wasn't suicidal.

The region is unstable because the Arabs have constantly been waging war on the Jews!!

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 15:57

But israel was telling the PA to hunt down the terrorists, while destroying the exact force required to hunt them down.

Iraqiya, come on man...Arafat was hunting down the terrorists?? He was the terrorist! The PA has never hunted any terrorists down, because they are the ones orcehstrating the terror...I mean for goodness sake the Al Aqsa martyrs brigade is a branch of Fatah...

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 16:03

First of all, the original Palestinians who were displaced, which numbered roughly 700,000 in '48 are mostly dead now and the probably estimates are around 300,000 or less at this point. The Pals are the only "refugees" in the world that classify the children and grandchildren of original refugees as refugees.

Numbers for what they are? If there is a Palestinian state, let as many Palestinians flood their borders and start building a viable state, but they will never be given the right to return within Israel proper...last time I checked Israel wasn't suicidal.

The region is unstable because the Arabs have constantly been wagingwa on the Jews!!

the question is not allowing them into israel proper, its about allowing them into a future palestinian state. Israel wants to control that.

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 16:08

the question is not allowing them into israel proper, its about allowing them into a future palestinian state. Israel wants to control that.

As far as I know they would be allowed into such a state if it existed, I have never heard otherwise, although if you would like to prove that you can provide a link or two...

Corneliu

29-06-2006, 16:10

They were worshippers of the one and only G-d. To say otherwise is ridiculous conspiracy theory. David and Solomon worshipped this same one G-d. The Jewish G-d has no image. Go read prophets and Kings.

Well said.

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 16:12

Well said.

thanks...I couldn't believe this guy was saying that David and Solomon were sun worshippers and not Jews, lol :)

Corneliu

29-06-2006, 16:15

Nope, particularily given the "freedom fighter/terrorist" argument. I don't agree with the targeting of civillians however, as a general rule.

That's the very definition of terrorism. Blowing up civilians. Why do you think I never really condemned the Pentagon attack?

Corneliu

29-06-2006, 16:19

However, A will never happen because Israel wants to control any Palestinian state, resulting in a de facto occupation and only an independant state on paper.

Utter horsecrap. You know the first thing Israel did when they became a state?

B is a non point because Israel is a hipocrite that does not allow nations to use policies it invented against them.

Its the Palestinians who are committing terrorist acts that are the problem.

Also, in democracies, you do not have to honour the treaties of previous governments. The CDU did not withdraw the treaty because it was not in their best interest, it would cause too much opposition for it to be worth it. However Hamas, now in power, can withdraw any treaties it wants if approved by Parliament.

So what you are saying is, Republicans can pull out of any treaty done by Democrats and vice-versa?

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 16:21

That's the very definition of terrorism. Blowing up civilians. Why do you think I never really condemned the Pentagon attack?

so if israel fires a rocket and blows up some civilians, thats terrorism?

if it is, then we see who the hipocrites are in this conflict.

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 16:24

so if israel fires a rocket and blows up some civilians, thats terrorism?

if it is, then we see who the hipocrites are in this conflict.

Israel targets militants when they launch a missile. If the terrorist plans his terror and hides out behind civilians and they are in turn killed by the missile, it is terrorism on the part of the terrorists who work in and amongst civilians.

The Palestinians specifically target civilians, not soliders, etc.

Corneliu

29-06-2006, 16:24

Iraqiya, come on man...Arafat was hunting down the terrorists?? He was the terrorist! The PA has never hunted any terrorists down, because they are the ones orcehstrating the terror...I mean for goodness sake the Al Aqsa martyrs brigade is a branch of Fatah...

Amen to that.

Iraqiya

29-06-2006, 16:24

Utter horsecrap. You know the first thing Israel did when they became a state?

Its the Palestinians who are committing terrorist acts that are the problem.

So what you are saying is, Republicans can pull out of any treaty done by Democrats and vice-versa?

It is a fact Israel wishes to control a Palestinians states airspace and defence capability.

Israel can still create a state with terrorism still alive, you can never kill terrorism. By saying terrorism must stop (as in every single group and not a single attack) before they give a palestinian state is pretty much saying they will never give a palestinian state.

Yes, ever heard of the ABM treaty?

Corneliu

29-06-2006, 16:25

the question is not allowing them into israel proper, its about allowing them into a future palestinian state. Israel wants to control that.

NO they don't. They want the terror to stop. They've been saying that all along. They don't want to control it. You sir, need to learn that fact.

Corneliu

29-06-2006, 16:26

thanks...I couldn't believe this guy was saying that David and Solomon were sun worshippers and not Jews, lol :)

Half the time, I don't think he knows what he is talking about.

Greater Valinor

29-06-2006, 16:27

It is a fact Israel wishes to control a Palestinians states airspace and defence capability.

Israel can still create a state with terrorism still alive, you can never kill terrorism. By saying terrorism must stop (as in every single group and not a single attack) before they give a palestinian state is pretty much saying they will never give a palestinian state.

Yes, ever heard of the ABM treaty?

If Israel gives the Pals a state whille terror still exists, AND the ones in control are orchestratng the terror (fatah or hamas...both commit terror), aren't we just creating another Taliban. Israel will then have another enemy country along its borders wiht the goal of its destruction. Not an option.

Corneliu

29-06-2006, 16:27

so if israel fires a rocket and blows up some civilians, thats terrorism?

if it is, then we see who the hipocrites are in this conflict.

Depends on who they are shooting at. You should know by now that these terror leaders hide behind civilians.

Corneliu

29-06-2006, 16:30

It is a fact Israel wishes to control a Palestinians states airspace and defence capability.

Bullcrap. There is no proof and you are spouting this crap because it is what you have been told. You dodged my question and I don't blame you since you wouldn't like the answer.

Israel can still create a state with terrorism still alive, you can never kill terrorism.

Do you want a state that supports terror that close to you? Its bad enough with Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq (hopefully no longer now that that bastard Saddam is gone), and others.

By saying terrorism must stop (as in every single group and not a single attack) before they give a palestinian state is pretty much saying they will never give a palestinian state.

Palestine isn't doing jack about the terror problem and you know. Nothing is going to happen till they do.

Yes, ever heard of the ABM treaty?

Of course. It was signed with the USSR. You do know that the USSR no longer exists right?

Anarchic Christians

29-06-2006, 17:54

Deep Kimchi

29-06-2006, 17:55

Of course. It was signed with the USSR. You do know that the USSR no longer exists right?

Ever heard of treaty continuity? I guess you haven't.

Deep Kimchi

30-06-2006, 00:43

breaking news...
Offices of President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party were hit by an Israeli airstrike, Palestinian and Israeli sources say.

Well, arresting half the Hamas government, putting the power and water out, destroying the bridge, bombing the Fatah HQ, bombing other weapons caches - sounds like they're trying to soften them up instead of putting pressure on the Palestinians.

Tropical Sands

30-06-2006, 01:40

So shooting civilians is wrong but destroying their water and electricity supplies and kidnapping their government is justified for the loss of 3 soldiers.

Yeah I know the Israelis have their policy of never leaving a man behind which I applaud but their willingness to unleash their armies on civilians to uphold it isn't exactly good is it?

The intentional attacking of civilians is always morally wrong, and illegal under international law. Civilians killed unintentionally is called collateral damage, and perfectly legal as long as the intent is to minimize civilian casualties. Comparing what Israel does to the terrorists in respect to that is a fallacious analogy. Remember, Israel has not unleashed its armies upon civilians. Israel has attacked only targets associated with terror, targets that are legal to attack due to this association by the rules of war. The terror groups, on the other hand, call for the categorical genocide of Jews worldwide. Read the Hamas charter.

Destroying water and electricity is also questionable. However, there are times when it is legally and morally justified. Such as when the services are used to further non-civilian or terrorist infrastructure. Israel targeted the electricity and water supplies relied heavily upon by the terrorist groups. Under international law, the fact that they are heavily relied upon by terror groups means that they are not strictly civilian infrastructure, and destroying them is legal. Just like destroying similiar targets during WW2 in Germany and Japan was legal.

This Israelis formented this crisis by refusing to allow Hamas the money it needed simply to run the country, the West helped nothing and constant palestinian infighting allowed this particular spark to set the Israelis off again.

The majority of Hamas income does not come from Israel. In fact, income from Israel to Hamas makes up a very minor portion of the Hamas infrastructure. Palestine has failed economically due to poor leadership, not due to Israel. Plus, it would be illegal for Israel to fund Hamas or allow any money in its poession to go to Hamas, because Hamas is the terror group. The United States and the EU both withheld funds from Hamas for this very reason. Yet, Israel, the US, and EU have continued to fund humanitarian groups in Palestine and contribute money that does not go directly to Hamas.

Ultraextreme Sanity

30-06-2006, 03:38

No, Gaza is in darkness because Israel blatantly attacked infrastructure under the guise of getting back their kidnapped soldier. Blowing up bridges and power stations are not needed to carry out recovery strikes.

Sure it doesnt make any sense at all . especially if you want to isolate an enemy or keep a hostage from being moved . And you have night vision equipment and the enemy doesnt...I really cant see what the tactical advantage of keeping the enemy in the dark and limiting his movement could possibly be ..

No pants ...do yourself a great big favor and NEVER get in a fight or join any type of military ..at least until you get a little more of an education and wash some of the propaganda out of your head .

Iraqiya

30-06-2006, 04:31

Bullcrap. There is no proof and you are spouting this crap because it is what you have been told. You dodged my question and I don't blame you since you wouldn't like the answer.

Do you want a state that supports terror that close to you? Its bad enough with Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq (hopefully no longer now that that bastard Saddam is gone), and others.

Palestine isn't doing jack about the terror problem and you know. Nothing is going to happen till they do.

Of course. It was signed with the USSR. You do know that the USSR no longer exists right?

1. Ah good old wiki:

The question of airspace - the West Bank and Israel form a strip only up to 80 kilometers wide. Israel has insisted on complete Israeli control of the airspace above the West Bank and Gaza as well as that above Israel itself. A Palestinian compromise of joint control over the combined airspace has been rejected by Israel.
The question of borders and international status -In the past Israel has demanded control over border crossings between the Palestinian territories and Jordan and Egypt, and the right to set the import and export controls, asserting that Israel and the Palestinian territories are a single economic space.
The question of an army: Israel does not wish Palestine to build up an army capable of offensive operations, considering that the only party against which such an army could be turned in the near future is Israel itself. Israel, however, has already allowed for the creation of a Palestinian police that can not only conduct police operations, but also carry out limited-scale warfare. Palestinians have argued that the IDF, a large and modern armed force, poses a direct and pressing threat to the sovereignty of any future Palestinian state, making a defensive force for a Palestinian state a matter of necessity. To this, Israelis claim that signing a treaty while building an army is a show of bad intentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_state

2. Well maybe Israel shouldn't have oppressed the Palestinians for long enough to get that terrorism to exist. You know that many Palestinian Christians originally supported Israel but after their bad treatment they supported the Palestinians. Really, terror will never go away, it never has for the history of nationstates.

3. Palestine can't do anything because it has no money and has its infrastructure destroyed. It could help if Israel at least TRIES to help them, instead of just assuming they won't do anything.

Yes, the USSR no longer exists, but Russia was the immediate successor to the USSR. That is why Russia took over the USSRs position on the UNSC. Russia also inherited all of the nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles of the USSR, so the treaty was very much still relevant, and the US pulled out.

DesignatedMarksman

30-06-2006, 04:49

Man, the palestinians have screwed the pooch....sucks to be them.

:p

Tropical Sands

30-06-2006, 04:56

1. Ah good old wiki:

The question of airspace - the West Bank and Israel form a strip only up to 80 kilometers wide. Israel has insisted on complete Israeli control of the airspace above the West Bank and Gaza as well as that above Israel itself. A Palestinian compromise of joint control over the combined airspace has been rejected by Israel.
The question of borders and international status -In the past Israel has demanded control over border crossings between the Palestinian territories and Jordan and Egypt, and the right to set the import and export controls, asserting that Israel and the Palestinian territories are a single economic space.
The question of an army: Israel does not wish Palestine to build up an army capable of offensive operations, considering that the only party against which such an army could be turned in the near future is Israel itself. Israel, however, has already allowed for the creation of a Palestinian police that can not only conduct police operations, but also carry out limited-scale warfare. Palestinians have argued that the IDF, a large and modern armed force, poses a direct and pressing threat to the sovereignty of any future Palestinian state, making a defensive force for a Palestinian state a matter of necessity. To this, Israelis claim that signing a treaty while building an army is a show of bad intentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_state

Its true that Israel has claimed for itself superiority over some issues, and will subject a future Palestinian state to some authority. However, this is not illegal, Israel isn't the only country that does this, nor is it immoral. Palestinians have been on the losing side of a civil conflict, and the losing side in military and pseudo-military conflicts must always give up certain liberties. A common example is how Japan had to give up military rights after losing in WW2.

2. Well maybe Israel shouldn't have oppressed the Palestinians for long enough to get that terrorism to exist. You know that many Palestinian Christians originally supported Israel but after their bad treatment they supported the Palestinians. Really, terror will never go away, it never has for the history of nationstates.

This is a fallacy of causality. Palestinian terror existed before Israel existed, thus your argument that Israel "caused" Palestinian terror is baseless and easily refuted by history itself. The Palestinian Mufti collaborated with Hitler to exterminate Jews in Europe, including travel abroad to help fund and supervise the building of gas chambers and the execution of Jews within them. Do you intend to blame Israel for Palestinian involvement and support of the Holocaust, too?

3. Palestine can't do anything because it has no money and has its infrastructure destroyed. It could help if Israel at least TRIES to help them, instead of just assuming they won't do anything.

Palestinians did nothing when they had resources, such as Arafat's huge Swiss bank account. Thus, your argument that the recent lack of money is the cause of Palestinian ineffectiveness to combat terror is refuted by history as well. Was the claim true, and not another fallacy of causality, then when Palestinians did have money they would have done something to combat terror. They didn't.

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 14:53

Ever heard of treaty continuity? I guess you haven't.

I have heard of it yep. Yep yep I did but I approve of the decision to pull out of a treaty with a nation that no longer exists :D

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 14:58

*snipo*

Ok I give up. You have dodged my question twice so I'll just tell you the answer. When Israel became a state, they immediately recognized their neighbors. You know...diplomatically with diplomats?

2. Well maybe Israel shouldn't have oppressed the Palestinians for long enough to get that terrorism to exist. You know that many Palestinian Christians originally supported Israel but after their bad treatment they supported the Palestinians. Really, terror will never go away, it never has for the history of nationstates.

You really have a spur up your butt don't you. Everything is Israel's fault. GUESS WHAT...its people like you that are the problem. You and your racist pig ilk.

3. Palestine can't do anything because it has no money and has its infrastructure destroyed. It could help if Israel at least TRIES to help them, instead of just assuming they won't do anything.

HELLO!!! They have tried. Guess what...they get blown up for their efforts. Please learn some facts before spouting your racist ilk.

Neu Leonstein

30-06-2006, 15:27

Yeah I know the Israelis have their policy of never leaving a man behind which I applaud but their willingness to unleash their armies on civilians to uphold it isn't exactly good is it?
Naw, dude. Enough is enough.

I too thought that Hamas could be reasonable. I thought it was a bad idea to stop giving them even basic funds. I thought Hamas might be a better alternative to the old corrupt guard of Fatah.

But Hamas disappointed me completely. Every time the Israelis give them something, they pretend they won it through violence. And then go on with more violence.

And now they're talking about how they will fight to the last man. Yeah, I'm sure they will - and take every last Palestinian with them.

We should stop kidding ourselves - this is not about that kidnapped soldier. This is about breaking Palestine, once and for all. Breaking Hamas primarily. Make them realise that they can't win, that they never were and never will be close to winning. I'm sorry that there will be no electricity in Gaza for a few days - but the people who're now sitting in the dark are the very same people who believed it when Hamas told them the Israelis had been thrown out of Gaza by force, and a little more force would destroy the country completely. How are these people going to learn that they need to abandon violence and war, other than by getting demonstrated that they got nothing going for them?

Hamas is a terror organisation, and they have no intention whatsoever of changing. Instead now they're trying to use the whole of Palestine as a weapon, rather than just their members.

Fatah is a corrupt bunch of dickheads. Abbas is desperately trying to pretend he's got things under control, but he doesn't. Instead he's just as quick to buy into any sort of propaganda crap as everyone else is down there.

Palestine can't be helped by the current establishment. As I see it, Israel is taking steps to make sure that this establishment meets its timely end.

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 15:38

*snip*

I never thought I see this from you Neu Leonstein.

*bows*

Neu Leonstein

30-06-2006, 15:41

I never thought I see this from you Neu Leonstein.

*bows*
Well, there is only so much bullshit I will take before I ask questions. And as long as the IDF keeps collateral damage down, and they have so far, I think they're doing what they have to do.

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 15:43

Well, there is only so much bullshit I will take before I ask questions. And as long as the IDF keeps collateral damage down, and they have so far, I think they're doing what they have to do.

I agree with you 100%

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:13

Then you are a sad individual if you support terrorism.do you support the IDF?

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:15

do you support the IDF?

I support the operation for the fact that its time for this crap to stop. That is what the IDF is doing. Putting a stop to it.

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:17

I support the operation for the fact that its time for this crap to stop...etc etcI am not sure I understand you answer.
Do you support the IDF?
Do you support the Israel Gov?

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:18

I am not sure I understand you answer.
Do you support the IDF?
Do you support the Israel Gov?

I support the operation. I support anyone who opposes terror and goes after it.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 21:20

I support the operation. I support anyone who opposes terror and goes after it.

Would that include those soviet forces who went after the Mujadeen in Aghanistan? Or the Sandinistas in their fight against the Contras?

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:22

Would that include those soviet forces who went after the Mujadeen in Aghanistan? Or the Sandinistas in their fight against the Contras?

Just the opposite in the Soviet Union case as they invaded illegaly in an effort to conquer Afghanistan and add it to their empire.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 21:23

Just the opposite in the Soviet Union case as they invaded illegaly in an effort to conquer Afghanistan and add it to their empire.

Well, they were asked in to help the (admittedly not entirely independent) Government at the time so thats not exactly true.

The second example...?

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:25

I support the operation. I support anyone who opposes terror and goes after it.The question is not only about the Invasion but about the IDF/Mossad/and the other Israel executioneers in Palestine.

I guess you are refusing to give me an straigh asnwer.. you know like
"yes I support the IDF/Mossad/etc" or "No, I dont..."

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:26

Well, they were asked in to help the (admittedly not entirely independent) Government at the time so thats not exactly true.

The second example...?

I dn't support terror organizations and supporting them is stupid.

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:29

I dn't support terror organizations and supporting them is stupid.then whoever supports the US/Israel.. Govs is stupid.
.. and whoever supports the Russian or Palestine Govs is stupid too.

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:31

then whoever supports the US/Israel.. Govs is stupid.

Since Israel is doing things within the rules of war...I support it. Same goes for the US government

.. and whoever supports the Russian or Palestine Govs is stupid too.

Agreed. Why do you think the Western World stopped with the money to the government of Palestine?

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:37

Agreed. Why do you think the Western World stopped with the money to the government of Russia/Pakistan/Turkey/Ubekistan/Israel/etc/etc/etc?because their Govs use terrorism?

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:38

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:40

says whom? FOX/CNN/AP. :rolleyes:

because I know what they are? I know what is and isn't part of the Rules of War. Also they hvae been stated throughout this thread. I guess facts are not your thing.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 21:44

I dn't support terror organizations and supporting them is stupid.

"stupid" eh? What if they're the only people fighting for your country?

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:45

Since Israel is doing things within the rules of war... Same goes for the US government.says whom? FOX/CNN/AP ? :rolleyes:

Deep Kimchi

30-06-2006, 21:45

"stupid" eh? What if they're the only people fighting for your country?
If I was fighting for my country, I would only fight people under arms.

Not unarmed people exclusively or primarily.

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:45

"stupid" eh? What if they're the only people fighting for your country?

I'll denounce those that intentionally go after civilians.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 21:47

I'll denounce those that intentionally go after civilians.

But what happens when for one reason or another they go for both?

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:48

because I know (who is a terrorist and who isnt) ...

I know what is and isn't.. (I know who is doing what on the war field)WOW, you know it all.

Lucky you. ;)

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:49

But what happens when for one reason or another they go for both?

I do not support those who go after civilians on purpose. I will support those who go after military targets.

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:50

I will support those who go after military targets.Do you support the group that captured the Israeli Soldier?

Deep Kimchi

30-06-2006, 21:51

Do you support the group that captured the Jew Soldier?
No, because the vast majority of their operations target unarmed civilians exclusively.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 21:51

I do not support those who go after civilians on purpose. I will support those who go after military targets.

We will assume that there are three groups. All target civillians and military.

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:51

Do you support the group that captured the Israeli Soldier?

No for it is the same group that hits civilians with suicide bombings.

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 21:52

No, because the vast majority of their operations target unarmed civilians exclusively.says FOX/CNN/AP.. ??

or do you know it all too?? ;)

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 21:52

The minute they hit civilians on purpose is the day I call for their heads.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 21:54

No, because the vast majority of their operations target unarmed civilians exclusively.

Why did you change what he said, might I ask?

Do you support the group that captured the Israeli Soldier?

was in his post and in yours its transformed into

Do you support the group that captured the Jew Soldier?

He had not edited that post by the time you quoted him.

Deep Kimchi

30-06-2006, 21:55

Why did you change what he said, might I ask?

Do you support the group that captured the Israeli Soldier?

was in his post and in yours its transformed into

Do you support the group that captured the Jew Soldier?

He had not edited that post by the time you quoted him.

I didn't change his quote. That's what was there when I hit the Quote button.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 21:55

The minute they hit civilians on purpose is the day I call for their heads.

To who do you call?

Deep Kimchi

30-06-2006, 21:56

BTw, Ocean is famous here for posting something virulently anti-Semitic and then quickly changing it.

I made a habit of hitting Quote as soon as he posts.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 21:57

BTw, Ocean is famous here for posting something virulently anti-Semitic and then quickly changing it.

I made a habit of hitting Quote as soon as he posts.

And this can be done without his post showing as being edited?

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 22:01

No for it is the same group that hits civilians with suicide bombings.how do you know its the same group ?

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 22:01

To who do you call?

You do know that what I said was an expression right?

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 22:04

I do not support those who go after civilians on purpose.How can you tell when Israel/US kill civileans.. if its on purpose or not ??

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 22:07

You do know that what I said was an expression right?

We'll start again from the beginning. There are three groups. In reality theres always a few. They all target both civillians and military. They are the ones fighting the occupiers of your country. Do you support them, or not?

Corneliu

30-06-2006, 22:09

We'll start again from the beginning. There are three groups. In reality theres always a few. They all target both civillians and military. They are the ones fighting the occupiers of your country. Do you support them, or not?

I hate sounding like a broken record but the minute they attack civilians ON PURPOSE I do not support them. Comprende?

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 22:10

BTw, Ocean is famous here for posting something virulently anti-Semitic .. typing "Jew soldier" or "Israel soldier" is virulently anti-semitic now... :rolleyes:

since when? since I am the one typing it? :D

BTW the second xpression is more accurate.. I think.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 22:13

I hate sounding like a broken record but the minute they attack civilians ON PURPOSE I do not support them. Comprende?

In which case you are not supporting the people fighting for your freedom, right to self-government, freedom of religon or whatever else might be involved.

Nodinia

30-06-2006, 22:14

neither Jew soldier or Israel soldier are virulently anti-semitic..

are they?

but the second one is more accurate.. I think.

"Jew soldier" would be less accurate, nor would I see why his religon particularily matters. Thus I would regard it as 'suspect' phrasing.

OcceanDrive

30-06-2006, 22:16

"Jew soldier" would be less accurate ...I agree 100%

Neu Leonstein

01-07-2006, 01:45

Just in case people were going to doubt me when I say that Hamas is crap and needs to go, no matter what, then read this interview with a top Hamas "politician".

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,424505,00.html
"No Matter What, the Violence Will Never Stop"

Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook is second in command of the political Hamas leadership in Syrian exile. In an interview, he tells SPIEGEL ONLINE that the agreement with Fatah on the foundation of a Palestinian state does not mean that his organization will recognize Israel. Hamas, he say, will remain committed to violence against its occupier.

Psychotic Mongooses

01-07-2006, 01:53

Just in case people were going to doubt me when I say that Hamas is crap and needs to go, no matter what, then read this interview with a top Hamas "politician".

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,424505,00.html

I don't think anyone disagrees with you that Hamas are bad news NL. They had a chance to do something constructive, but they've blown it.

I don't recall anyone here actually supporting Hamas, though I could be wrong.

Corneliu

01-07-2006, 01:54

Just in case people were going to doubt me when I say that Hamas is crap and needs to go, no matter what, then read this interview with a top Hamas "politician".

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,424505,00.html

And this from a so-called political leader.

And people wonder why they aren't receiving money from the EU, Canada, USA, and Israel when they took over.

New Mitanni

01-07-2006, 03:24

In which case you are not supporting the people fighting for your freedom, right to self-government, freedom of religon or whatever else might be involved.

Once you deliberately target civilians, you are no longer "fighting for your freedom, right to self-government, freedom of religion or whatever else might be involved." Whatever merits your case might have had are irrevocably forfeited. You are nothing but a terrorist and the only thing you deserve is a speedy painful death. And that's what Ham-ASS is getting right now.

Props to the IDF.

Psychotic Mongooses

01-07-2006, 03:26

Once you deliberately target civilians, ..... You are nothing but a terrorist and the only thing you deserve is a speedy painful death.

Quick question: Does this apply to government/military actions also?

Corneliu

01-07-2006, 03:31

Quick question: Does this apply to government/military actions also?

What time frame are you talking about before one can answer this question.

Psychotic Mongooses

01-07-2006, 03:36

What time frame are you talking about before one can answer this question.
Why? What does that matter to describe ones actions as 'terroristic'?

(Note: I wasn't specifically referring to Israel/Palestine- I meant in general)

Corneliu

01-07-2006, 03:38

Why? What does that matter to describe ones actions as 'terroristic'?

(Note: I wasn't specifically referring to Israel/Palestine- I meant in general)

Well you said government/military in regards to attacking civilians on purpose so I was just wondering what time frame you are talking about because the rules were different during different time points in history.

Psychotic Mongooses

01-07-2006, 03:40

Well you said government/military in regards to attacking civilians on purpose so I was just wondering what time frame you are talking about because the rules were different during different time points in history.
Modern, say 20th C. Hell, you pick the frame if you want.

I was wondering does s/he equate terrorists purely with non-government/state actions?

Forsakia

01-07-2006, 03:43

Corneliu

01-07-2006, 03:47

Modern, say 20th C. Hell, you pick the frame if you want.

I was wondering does s/he equate terrorists purely with non-government/state actions?

If a government supports those who use terrorist tactics or uses terrorist tactics using the military....then they are no better than those people who use terror tactics to try to gain what they want.

Neu Leonstein

01-07-2006, 08:30

I don't recall anyone here actually supporting Hamas, though I could be wrong.
No, they don't say it directly.

But how do you fight Hamas? People actually believe them, they actually vote for them. They think Hamas is strong...I think they actually believed the story about Hamas' violence having forced Sharon out of Gaza.

Of course Hamas itself has to be targeted primarily, and that is being done...but unless the Palestinians themselves start changing their mindset, there will just be another replacement.

Vernii

01-07-2006, 09:03

After all the rhetoric about targeting civilians, anyone else notice that as soon as an actual member of the army is targeted Israel makes a huge leap in its retaliation.

If there was no retaliation, or even just a limited one, it'd be taken as a sign of weakness.

The Palestinians need to be put in their proper place, and the IDF is doing it for them.

Cheers for Israel!

Nodinia

01-07-2006, 09:57

Once you deliberately target civilians, you are no longer "fighting for your freedom, right to self-government, freedom of religion or whatever else might be involved." Whatever merits your case might have had are irrevocably forfeited. You are nothing but a terrorist and the only thing you deserve is a speedy painful death. And that's what Ham-ASS is getting right now.

Props to the IDF.

Yet the Hagganah, Irgun, and the extremists did. Not only that, but some of them went on to be politicians in the Israeli state their actions helped found.

After all the rhetoric about targeting civilians, anyone else notice that as soon as an actual member of the army is targeted Israel makes a huge leap in its retaliation..

Yep. Theres no brownie points involved for playing by the "rules" that are so often mentioned.

If a government supports those who use terrorist tactics or uses terrorist tactics using the military....then they are no better than those people who use terror tactics to try to gain what they want...

So you don't think that firing at houses, 24-hour lockdowns, sniping at schools, destroying infrastructure etc are "terrorism" then?

Neu Leonstein

01-07-2006, 11:07

So you don't think that firing at houses, 24-hour lockdowns, sniping at schools, destroying infrastructure etc are "terrorism" then?
"Firing at houses"? What does that even mean?

Sniping at schools is a problem, but that is hardly official policy. It's a failure by the IDF to train their soldiers properly, just like US atrocities in Iraq are.

Destroying infrastructure, as was mentioned before, is a tool to demonstrate how helpless Hamas is. They need to be discredited with the Palestinians. And besides, no one is actually dying when the IDF destroys a few power stations.

Contrast that with suicide bombings, ambushes, firing unguided missiles into villages (and they claim they even used WMD) and that sort of thing. I don't see why you are trying so hard to see some sort of moral equivalence here, because it sure as hell isn't immediately apparent.

Nodinia

01-07-2006, 12:46

"Firing at houses"? What does that even mean?

Sniping at schools is a problem, but that is hardly official policy. It's a failure by the IDF to train their soldiers properly, just like US atrocities in Iraq are.

Destroying infrastructure, as was mentioned before, is a tool to demonstrate how helpless Hamas is. They need to be discredited with the Palestinians. And besides, no one is actually dying when the IDF destroys a few power stations.

Contrast that with suicide bombings, ambushes, firing unguided missiles into villages (and they claim they even used WMD) and that sort of thing. I don't see why you are trying so hard to see some sort of moral equivalence here, because it sure as hell isn't immediately apparent.

I think you are falsely under the impression that I'm talking about whats happening at the moment. I'm talking about whats been going on for the last few decades. Hamas are merely the latest excuse. Arafat was the last one. After Hamas there'll be another.

Israel frequently cut off power to areas under 24 hour curfew while in Gaza. They also cut off water supply. This is a reminder of what could happen again. On a regular basis. And because nobody dies directly, it went on for years and few in the West gave a fuck. It was part of the policy of making life unlivable for those they wanted out. Now it happens and you have no idea of the context.

"
Sniping at schools is a problem, but that is hardly official policy.

Sniping at schools, attacks on teachers by settlers, with the IDF standing around letting it go on. The beatings, the humiliations, the armed settlers walking around in their midst. Do you think this stops when you don't see it on the news or don't think about it? Bears do shit in the woods, you know.

Nodinia

01-07-2006, 12:53

"Firing at houses"? What does that even mean?

Shooting bullets at private houses. I remember seeing a hole where one large calibre passed through a doctors house, through the living room wall, over the couch and right out the other side where the TV was. It passed over the couch where the family sat at night watching the telly by a foot or so. That was because he was living in an area next to where the Israelis had bulldozed a large "clear" area and they had a clear field of fire. Used to go on all the time. I imagine its lessened somewhat now they've pulled out of Gaza.

The Azraelis

01-07-2006, 15:44

I think you are falsely under the impression that I'm talking about whats happening at the moment. I'm talking about whats been going on for the last few decades. Hamas are merely the latest excuse. Arafat was the last one. After Hamas there'll be another.

Hamas, Arafat, Fatah, none of them are excuses. They are terrorist organizations, dedicated to the continued destruction of Israeli civilians. So I would harly call them "excuses".

Israel frequently cut off power to areas under 24 hour curfew while in Gaza. They also cut off water supply. This is a reminder of what could happen again. On a regular basis. And because nobody dies directly, it went on for years and few in the West gave a fuck. It was part of the policy of making life unlivable for those they wanted out. Now it happens and you have no idea of the context.

And this wouldn't have happened if the terrorists would have left Israel alone, correct?

Sniping at schools, attacks on teachers by settlers, with the IDF standing around letting it go on. The beatings, the humiliations, the armed settlers walking around in their midst. Do you think this stops when you don't see it on the news or don't think about it? Bears do shit in the woods, you know.

Yes this happens, but on both sides. Let me tell you a story, you may have heard it. Two IDF soldiers are driving down a road, in full uniform, in a truck, etc. Well they make a wrong turn and wind up in a Palestinian town. So the citizens start throwing rocks, bashing the truck,etc. So the soldiers run into the Police building for protection, ok. Well they didn't get it. The COPS attack them, kill them, throw them out a 2 or 3 story window. And that's not enough, the crowd, and cops, mutiliate their bodies, to such an extreme that they could hardly recognize them. So don't tell me about "humiliations".

Forsakia

05-07-2006, 22:34

Out of vague interest, what's the actual definition of Terrorrist, preferably by UN/Int'l convention/etc

Iirc then the man kidnapped was a member of the army, and the captors seemed to all be wearing a uniform. What makes them terrorrists?

Nodinia

05-07-2006, 23:25

Hamas, Arafat, Fatah, none of them are excuses. They are terrorist organizations, dedicated to the continued destruction of Israeli civilians. So I would harly call them "excuses".".

Unlike the IDF, which is dedicated to the continuance of the occupation, whether it kills civillians in the process or otherwise.

And this wouldn't have happened if the terrorists would have left Israel alone, correct?".".

Actually more than likely it would, as these actions are primarily made to make life unlivable for the Palestinians, particularily around settlements which wish to expand.

Yes this happens, but on both sides. Let me tell you a story, you may have heard it. Two IDF soldiers are driving down a road, in full uniform, in a truck, etc. Well they make a wrong turn and wind up in a Palestinian town. So the citizens start throwing rocks, bashing the truck,etc. So the soldiers run into the Police building for protection, ok. Well they didn't get it. The COPS attack them, kill them, throw them out a 2 or 3 story window. And that's not enough, the crowd, and cops, mutiliate their bodies, to such an extreme that they could hardly recognize them. So don't tell me about "humiliations".

And what other reaction would you expect members of a brutal occupying force to get after nearly four decades? A hug and a pat on the back?

Greater Valinor

05-07-2006, 23:26

Francis Street

05-07-2006, 23:29

BTw, Ocean is famous here for posting something virulently anti-Semitic and then quickly changing it.
Oceandrive is an ignorant fool. He thinks that all Jews are right-wing Israel lovers who call for Palestinian blood. I wouldn't even respond to that troll if I were you.

Nodinia

05-07-2006, 23:31

A QUESTION ON THE SETTLEMENTS:

If the Arabs refused to make peace when they had control of the West Bank and Gaza before 1967, what makes anyone think it will be different this time around if Israel gives up the settlements for a Pali state...after all, you didn't see the Jordanians or the Egyptians setting up a Palestinian state when they had control of the land.

Considering they are states run by dictators/autocratic monarchs (aka dictators) I doubt they'd bother their arses doing anything for the Palestinians unless there was some interest of theirs served at the same time.
The difference is that this time its the Palestinian people who will have control over their own state, not Egypt or Jordan. And once they have a state of their own to lose, their attitude should change immeasurably.

The Parkus Empire

05-07-2006, 23:32

Ok, don't know if anyone did this yet....(i only checked the first two pages :p)

But anyway, Israel Invaded Gaza tonight, here is part of the article:

Article Source (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885868104&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull)

So, anyone taking bets on how long it takes before another Arab country gets involved, sparking another Arab-Israeli war?

-edit, the story should be correct now, and not all messy looking.-
It began quick, it shall end quick because they "eat AK-47 toting terrorists for breakfast".

The Azraelis

06-07-2006, 17:53

Unlike the IDF, which is dedicated to the continuance of the occupation, whether it kills civillians in the process or otherwise.

Actually more than likely it would, as these actions are primarily made to make life unlivable for the Palestinians, particularily around settlements which wish to expand.

And what other reaction would you expect members of a brutal occupying force to get after nearly four decades? A hug and a pat on the back?
So you Justify what they did? You really are sick.

The day that Israel pulled out of Gaza, the day Israel ended the occupation, Terrorist groups fired rockets into Israel, and have ever since. That proves that Hamas, Fatah, and any other governing terrorist group, want to destroy Israel. They don't want to take care of their people, if they did, they would have been building the schools, hospitals, roads, etc., that they said they would after Israel pulled out. Then Hamas digs a tunnel, kills two Israeli civilians, and kidnaps one, I think that justifies what Israel is doing right now.

Nodinia

06-07-2006, 19:55

New Burmesia

06-07-2006, 20:50

So you Justify what they did? You really are sick.

The day that Israel pulled out of Gaza, the day Israel ended the occupation, Terrorist groups fired rockets into Israel, and have ever since. That proves that Hamas, Fatah, and any other governing terrorist group, want to destroy Israel. They don't want to take care of their people, if they did, they would have been building the schools, hospitals, roads, etc., that they said they would after Israel pulled out. Then Hamas digs a tunnel, kills two Israeli civilians, and kidnaps one, I think that justifies what Israel is doing right now.

Hamas is divided into two main spheres of operation:

* social programmes like building schools, hospitals and religious institutions
* militant operations carried out by Hamas' underground Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades.

While still being a despicable terrorist organisation, Hamas has done far more social projects is Gaza/West bank than Israel (Hint, Israel blows them up), which is precisely why many (although not a majority) voted for Hamas in the PA election, and precisely what you claimed Hamas does not do. However, Israel has NOT ended the occupation. Do you remember when Israel fired shells into Gaza, killing seven Palestinians, including three childeren? Did you know that Israel has even today killed civilians in their invasion? Did you know that Israel is still colonising the West Bank?

Both sides are in the wrong in this issue, the phrase "A pox on both your houses" comes to mind. However, peace and reconciliation cannot happen under Israeli occuaption, which is why Israel must withdraw. Not necessarily precisely to the '67 borders, but with East Jerusalem in Palestinian hands. That is the only way Israel can win the hearts and minds of Palestinians.

Greater Valinor

06-07-2006, 21:16

While still being a despicable terrorist organisation, Hamas has done far more social projects is Gaza/West bank than Israel (Hint, Israel blows them up), which is precisely why many (although not a majority) voted for Hamas in the PA election, and precisely what you claimed Hamas does not do. However, Israel has NOT ended the occupation. Do you remember when Israel fired shells into Gaza, killing seven Palestinians, including three childeren? Did you know that Israel has even today killed civilians in their invasion? Did you know that Israel is still colonising the West Bank?

Both sides are in the wrong in this issue, the phrase "A pox on both your houses" comes to mind. However, peace and reconciliation cannot happen under Israeli occuaption, which is why Israel must withdraw. Not necessarily precisely to the '67 borders, but with East Jerusalem in Palestinian hands. That is the only way Israel can win the hearts and minds of Palestinians.

I think I just threw up in my mouth...

Corneliu

06-07-2006, 21:18

Do you remember when Israel fired shells into Gaza, killing seven Palestinians, including three childeren? Did you know that Israel has even today killed civilians in their invasion? Did you know that Israel is still colonising the West Bank?

1) If you are referring to the beach incident, that wasn't done by the IDF.

2) Kinda happens in a warzone.

3) Is it approved by the government?

OcceanDrive

06-07-2006, 21:37

Oh come on, nobody prefers Israeli women over American women, NOBODY.I dont know about that..

OcceanDrive

06-07-2006, 21:53

Oceandrive is an ignorant fool. He thinks that all Jews are right-wing Israel lovers.no, some of them are buffalo-wing Israel Lovers.. :D :D :p :D

The Atlantian islands

06-07-2006, 21:57

I dont know about that..

You do? But you HATE Israelis!

Solaris-X

06-07-2006, 22:01

Israel has alot of technology know how in their armed forces supplied by the us and other western countries they will be fine. I don't like the war there is stupid, but Israel should protect itself. Its a very complicated case they both have their arguments also.

Zilam

06-07-2006, 22:04

I dont know about that..

Israeli women over american women? Well i'd take natalie portman over most american women anyday!

The Atlantian islands

06-07-2006, 22:09

Israeli women over american women? Well i'd take natalie portman over most american women anyday!

http://veruska.homepage.sites.uol.com.br/Natali.jpg...pretty, but comparable to http://www.thegate.ca/babe/2005/jessica-simpson.jpg?

I think not.:p

Zilam

06-07-2006, 22:10

http://veruska.homepage.sites.uol.com.br/Natali.jpg...pretty, but comparable to http://www.thegate.ca/babe/2005/jessica-simpson.jpg?

I think not.:p

Jessica simpson? Yuck. I don't find her attractive AT ALL... Ill stick with Natalie :D

The UN abassadorship

06-07-2006, 22:14

Jessica simpson? Yuck. I don't find her attractive AT ALL... Ill stick with Natalie :D
Jessica Simpson is far better, at least she voted for Bush. Shes bright and my kind of women

The Atlantian islands

06-07-2006, 22:14

Jessica simpson? Yuck. I don't find her attractive AT ALL... Ill stick with Natalie :D

What are you gay!?!?

Either that, or your penis is long last, bro.:p

If Jessica Simpson came at me naked and asked to fuck, I may not be able to get it up. But that wouldnt be because I dont find her attractive, on the contrary, I find her VERY attractive, it would be because I was so intimidated by her Goddess like body and angel like face and hair, that my blood would just stop pumping and stare..thus, no erection. :p

The Atlantian islands

06-07-2006, 22:15

Jessica Simpson is far better, at least she voted for Bush. Shes bright and my kind of women

She is far better...and she is a hot southerner. As for her being stupid, theres more to her than she lets on.

Zilam

06-07-2006, 22:16

What are you gay!?!?

Either that, or your penis is long last, bro.:p

If Jessica Simpson came at me naked and asked to fuck, I may not be able to get it up. But that wouldnt be because I dont find her attractive, on the contrary, I find her VERY attractive, it would be because I was so intimidated by her Goddess like body and angel like face and hair, that my blood would just stop pumping and stare..thus, no erection. :p

Now that i have the image of another man's erection problems in my mind, i think i will go kill myself :p

The Atlantian islands

06-07-2006, 22:18

Now that i have the image of another man's erection problems in my mind, i think i will go kill myself :p

I certainly do NOT have erection problems...:mad:

(if you tell anybody, I will kill you...:D )

just kidding...I'm perfectly able to raise on command,:p

Solaris-X

06-07-2006, 22:22

ya this thread got totally derailed lol

New Burmesia

06-07-2006, 22:24

ya this thread got totally derailed lol

Yeah, everybody's pissed off with the whole Israel/Palestine think, I think. I'm content to look at the girl above.

The Atlantian islands

06-07-2006, 22:25

Yeah, everybody's pissed off with the whole Israel/Palestine think, I think. I'm content to look at the girl above.

The American or the Israeli?

I have a better idea...this one fits in more with the whole Israeli-Palestinian crisis.

Why dont we compare arab women to Israeli women and see whos are hotter?

Whos with me!?

Arab Democratic States

07-07-2006, 01:33

Halfbreed']I've never seen that movie, so I can't really comment.

But my occupation requires quite a bit of blood, pus, mucus, vomit, etc... all over the place, and unless you want to catch Hepititus, AIDS, etc... you must treat all bodily fluids as contaminated.

No, it hasn't.

Unbelievers are not innocent in Islam. Nor are adulterers, and wives who get too uppity.

I lol'd when I read this. Tell me, do you do anti-war rallies?

read the bible... and the torah.. it has the same stuff..

Neu Leonstein

07-07-2006, 01:38

Why dont we compare arab women to Israeli women and see whos are hotter?
Matter of taste, I reckon. And besides, in much of the Arab world people's ideas of make-up clash violently with mine.

Arab Democratic States

07-07-2006, 01:48

The American or the Israeli?

I have a better idea...this one fits in more with the whole Israeli-Palestinian crisis.

Why dont we compare arab women to Israeli women and see whos are hotter?

Whos with me!?

Sure why not

Arab Women...

http://www.salmamusic.com/news/news295.jpg

http://myriam-fares.skyblog.com/pics/282312526_small.jpg

Israeli Women

http://www.ortzion.org/Isrl_soldierette.jpg

http://www.weltchronik.de/ws/bio/m/meirG/mg01978a-MeirGolda-18980503b-19781208d.jpg

Neu Leonstein

07-07-2006, 01:51

-snip pic of Golda Meir-
http://www.schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

You win the thread!

EDIT: Must add one more thing: Ruby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e966wklzBfM&search=ruby%20egypt)!

Arab Democratic States

07-07-2006, 01:54

http://www.schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

You win the thread!

thanks mate....
but seriously... trying to compare hot Israeli women with Hot Arab Women is Useless... its like comparing Golda Meir with marlin monro... Hot Arab Women are famous in the world, Sharazade, Cleopetra and others...

my dream gal is myriam fares...
you must see the whole clip to know what i mean... ooh yea and she is an Arab... please compare her to the tent women places showing Arab women in taliban... to see how ignoratn some people can be...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D76lrYz_HrA&search=myriam%20fares

OcceanDrive

07-07-2006, 04:48

You do? But you HATE Israelis!I only hate the Isrealis/Jews that support the genocide.. (Just like I would have hated anyones supporting the other genocides.. including the one known as holocaust)

OcceanDrive

07-07-2006, 04:55

BTw, Ocean is famous...thank you Sierra.

Now would you please stop kissing my ass :D :D :p :D

OcceanDrive

07-07-2006, 04:59

The American or the Israeli?

I have a better idea...this one fits in more with the whole Israeli-Palestinian crisis.

Why dont we compare arab women to Israeli women and see whos are hotter?

Whos with me!?LOL
I am with you of course.

Make love NOT war.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=make%20love%20not%20war&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&fr2=tab-web

Arab Democratic States

07-07-2006, 05:05

LOL
I am with you of course.

Make love NOT war.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=make%20love%20not%20war&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&fr2=tab-web

im pretty sure we have settled this down in page 63 in this thread... please look at some pics... posted down there..

OcceanDrive

07-07-2006, 06:03

im pretty sure we have settled this down in page 63 in this thread... please look at some pics... posted down there..LOL.. Golda Meir !!! :p :D

The Atlantian islands

07-07-2006, 13:23

Sure why not

Arab Women...

http://www.salmamusic.com/news/news295.jpg

http://myriam-fares.skyblog.com/pics/282312526_small.jpg

Israeli Women

http://www.ortzion.org/Isrl_soldierette.jpg

http://www.weltchronik.de/ws/bio/m/meirG/mg01978a-MeirGolda-18980503b-19781208d.jpg

You know what I find very interesting....the women you picked to reperesent hot arabs...are, interestingly enough...very European looking. Its just strange when you look at it this way. I ask you to find the hottest arabs, you show me the ones that look the most European.....strange, when one thinks of it that way.

Anyway, arab women are goats compared to Israeli women. Many Israelis are American and Russian immigrants, and we all know how hot American and Russian immigrants are. But let me try my hand at this.

Isreali (as provided by Zilam) http://veruska.homepage.sites.uol.com.br/Natali.jpg

Hot 'rabs: http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38690000/jpg/_38690167_saudi_women_ap150.jpg
http://www.galik.com/stanleygalik1922/lci/images/Arab_Women_W.JPG

.....and a little sneak peak at next weaks issue, attractive arab males: http://www.thefinalphase.com/images/Osama%20Bin%20laden.jpg

Zen Accords

07-07-2006, 13:44

Isreali (as provided by Zilam) http://veruska.homepage.sites.uol.com.br/Natali.jpg

Paedo.

Katganistan

07-07-2006, 13:52

Arab Democratic States and The Atlantian States, your posts of "hot" whatever and "not" whatever are equally immature. Knock it off.

The Atlantian islands

07-07-2006, 14:39

Paedo.

Uh, first of all, I'm not 18 or older...second of all, and more importantly, she is like in her 20s I think...shes Padme from Star Wars.

The Atlantian islands

07-07-2006, 14:39

Arab Democratic States and The Atlantian States, your posts of "hot" whatever and "not" whatever are equally immature. Knock it off.

Haha...I didnt know it was against the rules to post pics of different ethnicities women....sorry if there was a rule I broke I was not aware of.

Katganistan

07-07-2006, 14:43

Haha...I didnt know it was against the rules to post pics of different ethnicities women....sorry if there was a rule I broke I was not aware of.

You're both choosing to post the most beautiful women you can find as the "average" of your own kind and denigrating the other's culture by posting the ugliest people you can find of theirs. Calling people "goats" is flamebaiting.

Is there anything else that needs clarification?

"haha" kind of underscores what I was saying abut maturity or lack thereof, by the way.

The Atlantian islands

07-07-2006, 15:18

You're both choosing to post the most beautiful women you can find as the "average" of your own kind and denigrating the other's culture by posting the ugliest people you can find of theirs. Calling people "goats" is flamebaiting.

Is there anything else that needs clarification?

"haha" kind of underscores what I was saying abut maturity or lack thereof, by the way.

Oh come on...I dont think anybody is actually taking this seriously besides you and Phsycotic Mongooses. Him and I were just messing around, I'm not even Israeli. This is just a case of people being to PC and sensative...Does it really matter if we joke around and make fun of Golda Meir and the Muslim dress? No. I see threads where people call anyone who votes republican fascists, fundies, earth rapers, ect...but nobody cares (nor do I I'm just saying) I understand that you, as a mod, are required to make sure people dont get out of line on this forum, but I dont really see this as anything serious, rather its just two guys poking a little fun at the others women...nothing to get panties in a twist over. You dont have to rule with an iron fist.

And the haha was because I think that a simple joke is causing this much...anguish....:p

You're both choosing to post the most beautiful women you can find as the "average" of your own kind and denigrating the other's culture by posting the ugliest people you can find of theirs.
....And, is there a rule against that?

Kazus

07-07-2006, 15:19

Sharon, Olmert, none of them are excuses. They are terrorist organizations, dedicated to the continued destruction of Palestinian civilians. So I would harly call them "excuses".

Fixed.

Rotovia-

07-07-2006, 15:30

Circa 2000 BC, the Eutruscans controlled Rome, the Italians shouldn't mind if we return it...

OcceanDrive

07-07-2006, 19:30

Paedo.....phile?

:rolleyes:

The Atlantian islands

07-07-2006, 19:48

..phile?

:rolleyes:

Shes a hell of alot older than I am. I dont know what that guys deal is.

Nodinia

07-07-2006, 20:36

1) If you are referring to the beach incident, that wasn't done by the IDF.?

You might say that it has not been proven to be the result of IDF action, but as there has been no independent inquiry thats as far as you can go without relying on the IDF to fairly investigate the IDF.

2) Kinda happens in a warzone..?

Theres no need for it to be a 'warzone'.

3) Is it approved by the government?

What is your point?

The Azraelis

07-07-2006, 21:42

You might say that it has not been proven to be the result of IDF action, but as there has been no independent inquiry thats as far as you can go without relying on the IDF to fairly investigate the IDF.

Actually, there has been many independent sources stating it wasn't an IDF shell

Theres no need for it to be a 'warzone'.

It wouldn't be a warzone if Hamas hadn't have kidnapped and killed Israeli citizens.

Gravlen

07-07-2006, 21:59

Actually, there has been many independent sources stating it wasn't an IDF shell
Since I haven't seen any independent sources saying this, would you happen to have a link handy? Muchas grachias.

It wouldn't be a warzone if Hamas hadn't have kidnapped and killed Israeli citizens.
Yes it would have. Hamas is not alone in the middle east.

Nodinia

07-07-2006, 23:03

Actually, there has been many independent sources stating it wasn't an IDF shell

I might echo the other posters query.....

It wouldn't be a warzone if Hamas hadn't have kidnapped and killed Israeli citizens.

I had in mind the fact of the occupation overall. However, considering the mayhem being unleashed on Gaza by air-strikes, tanks, shelling, and house to house fighting in some areas, I think we can say that this is not (if in fact it ever was) about some poor sod grabbed out of his tank. Its about delivering slaps to let the occupied know who is in charge, and who has the military power. In effect, its the same mentality as that behind the suicide bomb - "we can inflict damage on you". The suicide bomb is borne of desperation, this is borne of the need to oppress and beat down.

OcceanDrive

08-07-2006, 00:45

Shes a hell of alot older than I am. I dont know what that guys deal is.You could be older than "padme"..

he still got no reason to accuse you of anything.. (the thumbs-down is for him.. not you)

The Azraelis

08-07-2006, 01:50

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/21/153234.shtml

Here's one.

The Azraelis

08-07-2006, 01:52

Yes it would have. Hamas is not alone in the middle east.

True.

Gravlen

08-07-2006, 01:56

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/21/153234.shtml

Here's one.
Nooo, they accept the Israeli findings - it's not an independent investigation.

Edit: On second viewing, I see that I perhaps should have clarified that. Has anybody else except the Israelis investigated? One thing is to accept their claims, another is to investigate. Were you only talking about the former?

The Azraelis

08-07-2006, 01:58

Nooo, they accept the Israeli findings - it's not an independent investigation.

After they did their own investigation, they agreed that israel did not fire the shell.

The Azraelis

08-07-2006, 02:01

Nooo, they accept the Israeli findings - it's not an independent investigation.

Edit: On second viewing, I see that I perhaps should have clarified that. Has anybody else except the Israelis investigated? One thing is to accept their claims, another is to investigate. Were you only talking about the former?

Honestly, I don't know. Probably not. But the HRW guy did do his own ivestigation, I think that counts.

Buddom

08-07-2006, 02:13

In the past, Israel has categorically refused direct military support from the USA, stating that Israel will never have any foreign blood shed for its own conflicts. And, true to that, Israel has never requested the aid of foreign troops.

I'd be shocked if US troops showed up, considering that this invasion is little more than extensive martial law of the Occupied Territories. It isn't tantamount to the United States invading Iraq, or if Israel were to invade a neighboring country (like Jordan and Egypt did).

The US does have a nasty habbit of meddling in other countries business though...

Buddom

08-07-2006, 02:17

This thread is a few days old... when did this happen? I've been hearing a bunch about this kidnapped soldier and all and Isreal bombing Palestein's Prime Minster's offices and such a few days ago. Is this all still going on or did it cool down or what?

The Atlantian islands

08-07-2006, 02:38

You could be older than "padme"..

he still got no reason to accuse you of anything.. (the thumbs-down is for him.. not you)

I just turned 17, I doubt I'm older than her.

The Atlantian islands

08-07-2006, 02:38

Arab women are PIGS!!

...Somehow I see this not going over well...

Neu Leonstein

08-07-2006, 02:55

...Somehow I see this not going over well...
Plus it's so incorrect. She (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e966wklzBfM&search=ruby%20egypt) can keep up with any of the Western "hot chicks".

The Atlantian islands

08-07-2006, 03:09

Plus it's so incorrect. She (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e966wklzBfM&search=ruby%20egypt) can keep up with any of the Western "hot chicks".

In theory...but only because to call these girls 'hot chicks' would be the understatement of the century:

Feast your eyes and your penises on two nordic (http://www.eskimo.is/modelzoom.asp?nr=6428&pnr=10587&r=1&gender=F) godesses (http://www.eskimo.is/modelzoom.asp?nr=7811&pnr=16252&r=0&gender=F): They are both Icelandic models and breathtaking women.
*Excuse me fellas, I think I hear my hand calling my name.*;)

Non Aligned States

08-07-2006, 03:50

So now after thrashing much of Gaza strip, blowing up power plants and stuff, Israel talks about possible prisoner exchanges.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=996752006

News is only a few hours old, so give it time for the bigger networks to pick it up.

So was this ever about kidnapped soldiers? I don't think so. That's just an emotional heartstring to gain sympathy from the "arabs are sand niggers" crowd.

The real thing was probably to deliver a beatdown. Doing exactly what the terrorists are doing. Delivering a message of "We can hurt you, whenever we want, however we want."

The Atlantian islands

08-07-2006, 03:55

That's just an emotional heartstring to gain sympathy from the "arabs are sand niggers" crowd.

Yayyyy! :p

*Gives sympathy*

Non Aligned States

08-07-2006, 04:03

Yayyyy! :p

*Gives sympathy*

I'd rather put a great big wall around Israel/Palestine and shoot anything going in or out than give sympathy. That way, we'll finally have peace when they're all dead.

And we won't have to put up with anymore rubbish about anti-semitism or stuff like that.

The Atlantian islands

08-07-2006, 04:05

I'd rather put a great big wall around Israel/Palestine and shoot anything going in or out than give sympathy. That way, we'll finally have peace when they're all dead.

And its because of this kind of thinking exactly, that Israel has one of the best militaries in the world.;)

And we won't have to put up with anymore rubbish about anti-semitism or stuff like that.

Uh, how do you figure....theres still the other half of the Jews in the world left..you know the ones who DONT live in Israel.

Non Aligned States

08-07-2006, 05:06

And its because of this kind of thinking exactly, that Israel has one of the best militaries in the world.;)

No, not quite. No one has yet to put a great big wall around Israel and Palestine. Or shoot people going in or out. Israel has got a good military because it's had plenty of experience fighting with tough odds and a lot of street fighting.

A fully blockaded Israel/Palestine would eventually lead to an empty land. Especially if you block off the water supplies.

Of course, if anyone is critical of this idea, they had better not have approved of Israel's "slap me once, I shoot your whole family" methods.

Uh, how do you figure....theres still the other half of the Jews in the world left..you know the ones who DONT live in Israel.

Because half the time, all that anti-semitism bullcrap translates to "anyone critical of the Israeli government."

No more Israeli government, no more spamming anti-semite accusations.

Ravenshrike

08-07-2006, 05:57

ok first of all, lets just get a long breath and calm down, and look at some facts... Palestinians kidnapped the soldier, and had requests, do you know what these requests were??
Actually, because they dug a tunnel into a sovereign nation to kidnap him, technically they committed an act of war. This means that as long as they try to minimize civilian casualties and follow the geneva conventions, israel can do whatever the fuck they want. They're showing admirable restraint in only asking for the soldier back.

Nodinia

08-07-2006, 12:00

Honestly, I don't know. Probably not. But the HRW guy did do his own ivestigation, I think that counts.

There is no such statement on the HRW site, and until one appears there, I must say that I find the whole "retracted" business dubious to say the least.

Nodinia

08-07-2006, 12:05

Actually, because they dug a tunnel into a sovereign nation to kidnap him, technically they committed an act of war. This means that as long as they try to minimize civilian casualties and follow the geneva conventions, israel can do whatever the fuck they want. They're showing admirable restraint in only asking for the soldier back.

Admirable restraint in killing 22, blowing up bridges, power stations, using tanks, air-strikes and artillery....

Adriatica III

08-07-2006, 12:12

Admirable restraint in killing 22.

Who were attacking them

blowing up bridges, power stations

Both legitimate infrastructure targets, as opposed to shoping centres, marketplaces and recruitment centres targeted by Palestianin terrorists

using tanks, air-strikes and artillery....

Depends upon how they use them

Nodinia

08-07-2006, 12:43

Who were attacking them

As the Israeli forces were inside Gaza it was the other way around. Not all those dead were combatants either.

Both legitimate infrastructure targets, as opposed to shoping centres, marketplaces and recruitment centres targeted by Palestianin terrorists

In practice this is done to collectivelu 'punish' the Palestinian population. Exactly as the suicide bomb is to 'punish' the Israelis.

I might add that 'sending a message' to ones enemy that taking prisoners is a bad idea, strikes me as a remarkably ill conceived venture, particularily given the vast amount of bad blood that already exists on both sides.

Depends upon how they use them

To subdue an 'unruly' populace. The more this current escapade goes on, the more it brings to mind some straightforward colonial exercise - a Cheif amongst the natives is 'stirring up trouble' so they are taught a 'stiff lesson' and the preprators hung. I think the 'Sanders of the river' book was of this ilk. The few "decent white men" out there, striving to keep the "savages" in order.

Tropical Sands

08-07-2006, 14:01

In practice this is done to collectivelu 'punish' the Palestinian population. Exactly as the suicide bomb is to 'punish' the Israelis.

Actually the Israeli government has repeatedly stated that the attack on Palestinian infrastructure is not collective punishment. Nor is there any evidence that it is. To claim such is to sink into conspiracy theories. Attacks on infrastructure such as bridges and power plants has occured in every war to this very date, including WWI, WWII, and the current Iraqi occupation. No one has accused the identical operations in these wars as being "collective punishment." Yet, when Israel does the exact same thing, it gets accused of this. Which, of course, demonstrates the bias rooted in anti-Semitism that becomes evident in the anti-Israeli propganda crowd.

In addition, comparing the attack on power plants, which directly support terrorist infrastructure, to the suicide bombings that target Jewish citizens for being Jewish is vile and fallacious. This implicit justification of suicide bombings also says something about your true feelings for Jews, Nodinia.

Tropical Sands

08-07-2006, 14:04

There is no such statement on the HRW site, and until one appears there, I must say that I find the whole "retracted" business dubious to say the least.

This is a fallacy called selective reading.

We've listed direct quotes from Garalsco in numerous media sources, many of which are directly hostile toward Jews and Israel, such as Counterpunch. Garalsco is also not full time staff for HRW, and to assume that his retraction would be published on the HRW site is without validation. You're simply refusing to accept what has been in the news because HRW refuses to publish Garalsco's retraction (because it contradicts the report that they hired him to make).

Tropical Sands

08-07-2006, 14:05

I'd rather put a great big wall around Israel/Palestine and shoot anything going in or out than give sympathy. That way, we'll finally have peace when they're all dead.

Since that is your sentiment, don't bother attempting to post or give serious analysis of the conflict. At this point only a fool would take you seriously.

OcceanDrive

08-07-2006, 14:39

Actually the Israeli government has repeatedly stated that the attack on Palestinian infrastructure is not collective punishment.the Israeli government can say whatever they want..

I do not care.

DeADe

08-07-2006, 14:58

While I'm against anti-Semitism, just the same, Israel is definitely wrong here. I'm not sure Israel should be in the Middle East, it's unfair to Islam, which was there first. Also the USA should give back their land to the Native Americans, because they were there first. I hate how bad the world is.

axtually the isrealites where there before islam:headbang:
so why don't we solve this by :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: them all and taking it for our selves, i'm sure the UN *cough*followers*cough* would let us *cough*pushovers*cough*

Tropical Sands

08-07-2006, 15:07

the Israeli government can say whatever they want..

I do not care.

Is this even a response that makes sense? Collective punishment is outlined in the Geneva Conventions, and it is one of the many aspects of international law that falls under intent. Attacking infrastructure that is used to directly support terror is legal and justified under international law. Its been done in every war throughout history. The fact that we know it isn't being used as collective punishment is because the intention, as required in the Geneva Conventions, and as stated by the Israeli govt., is not to punish the Palestinian people but to stop terrorist infrastructure.

Now, we can accept what conforms to international law, or we can believe in wild conspiracy theories. Claiming that Israel is attempting collective punishment, when according to international law they are not, amounts to a wild conspiracy theory. There is no evidence for such a claim. There is evidence against the claim (see above). Yet, some people will chose to believe negative things about Israel and push these conspiracy theories contrary to what evidence there is, and without any evidence of their own. The motives of those people come into question.

Gravlen

08-07-2006, 15:10

Nodinia

08-07-2006, 15:11

Actually the Israeli government has repeatedly stated that the attack on Palestinian infrastructure is not collective punishment. Nor is there any evidence that it is. To claim such is to sink into conspiracy theories. Attacks on infrastructure such as bridges and power plants has occured in every war to this very date, including WWI, WWII, and the current Iraqi occupation. No one has accused the identical operations in these wars as being "collective punishment..

Because there we had vast armies arrayed against each other in open and covert combat, countries both occupied and allied with or against the sides in question and on-going genocide, ethnic cleansing and theft. Here we have one guy pulled out of his tank. A sense of scale is obviously not an attribute you poesses.

In addition, comparing the attack on power plants, which directly support terrorist infrastructure, to the suicide bombings that target Jewish citizens for being Jewish is vile and fallacious. This implicit justification of suicide bombings also says something about your true feelings for Jews, Nodinia.

The power plants supply power. There were, to my knowledge, no power stations were Balaclavas with "Terrorist Infrastructure Station" written on them. Likewise the bridges. Its punishing the Palestinians collectively.
And as far as I can tell, they target Israelis for being the occupiers of their land. The only one around here with a massive fixation for relating matters to who is Jewish and who isn't is you.

This is a fallacy called selective reading..

Coming from you, thats a good one...However..He was speaking as a representive of HRW..If he wasn't speaking as a representative of HRW, why did they place the statement on their site? If he has retracted, why didn't they retract theirs?

You're simply refusing to accept what has been in the news because HRW refuses to publish Garalsco's retraction (because it contradicts the report that they hired him to make)...

O yeah.....thats it...them, the Nazis in Amnesty, Medicine Sans Frontiers, Bt'selem and JFJFP...plotting. ITS A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!MIT jACKBOOTS!!!!!!!!

Tropical Sands

08-07-2006, 15:24

Because there we had vast armies arrayed against each other in open and covert combat, countries both occupied and allied with or against the sides in question and on-going genocide, ethnic cleansing and theft. Here we have one guy pulled out of his tank. A sense of scale is obviously not an attribute you poesses.

Scale doesn't change international law regarding collective punishment. You're attempting to impose your subjective morality onto the legal community at large. Just because one kidnapped soldier isn't important to you does not mean that he isn't important to others. It also doesn't make Israel's actions any less legal. The fact of the matter is, Israel is within its full legal rights to destroy any infrastructure that supports enemy combatants, terror infrastructure, etc.

The power plants supply power. There were, to my knowledge, no power stations were Balaclavas with "Terrorist Infrastructure Station" written on them. Likewise the bridges. Its punishing the Palestinians collectively.
And as far as I can tell, they target Israelis for being the occupiers of their land. The only one around here with a massive fixation for relating matters to who is Jewish and who isn't is you.

You've yet to support your claim that it is collective punishment. Unless you can prove Israeli intent to do so, which you can't, it falls into the category of wild conspiracy theories. Why do you ignore things like evidence and international law when it doesn't support your anti-Israel agenda?

Keep in mind, according to the Geneva Conventions, it is legal. This is because the Israeli intention, as they have stated, is to destroy terrorist infrastructure. In addition, the fact that they happen to support militant/combatant/terrorist operations makes them legitimate military targets. Again, thus says international law, in opposition to your selective morality that supports suicide bombings but condemns Israel blowing up a bridge.

And no, they don't target Israelis. They target Jews. Arab-Israelis are not terrorist targets. "Israelis" does not occur in the Hamas charter, the Martyr's Brigade charter, etc. Jews do. I've posted the Hamas charter numerous times where it calls for the geocide of Jews worldwide. Jews have been targeted by Hamas in Egypt, and by Palestinian terror groups around the world. And yet, you want to pretend as if they are targetting Israelis only.

Coming from you, thats a good one...However..He was speaking as a representive of HRW..If he wasn't speaking as a representative of HRW, why did they place the statement on their site? If he has retracted, why didn't they retract theirs?

He wasn't speaking as a rep for HRW. You're just making stuff up now it would seem. He was hired by HRW to do a report. Then, when he retracted, HRW ignored it and refused to retract. Why didn't they retract? Because it doesn't support their agenda, which has been demonstrated time and time again to be one of anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli sentiment:

Human Rights Watch (Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch#Criticism)

Human Rights Watch has been criticized by various human rights activists, non-governmental organizations, politicians, and media as having an anti-Semitic or anti-Israel bias. This includes the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, the Anti-Defamation League, Honest Reporting, NGO Monitor, the Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council (AIJAC), Abraham Cooper, Anne Bayefsky, Gerald Steinberg, Isi Leibler, Shimon Peres, Elihai Braun, and Ana Palacio.

The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America ran an article on their website in 2005 titled “What is Human Rights Watch's Agenda?” In this article CAMERA stated that Human Rights Watch is “A self-appointed arbiter of human rights abuses around the world” and that, “This would be a noble and worthy mission if it were carried out objectively, without regard to political or ideological agenda. Regrettably, this is not the case.”[4] CAMERA has also stated, “AI and another "voice of international appeasement" — Human Rights Watch — have consistently directed their righteous ire at Israel, sparing the real human rights abusers.”[5]

In a 2006 communiqué Honest Reporting wrote, “Human Rights Watch, along with many other organizations which claim to focus solely on human rights without a political agenda, have hardly proven themselves to be an "unbiased" source.” Furthermore, the communiqué asserted, “HRW is not held accountable to anybody but its own staff” and, “The organization's bias against Israel is hardly new.”[6]

The Anti-Defamation League, in response to coverage of the Jenin Massacre, stated that Human Rights Watch was among the groups that, “Pre-judged Israel's behavior.” The Anti-Defamation League also wrote, “Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch charged Israel with violations of international law and war crimes. Neither discussed the international law violations involved in arming a refugee camp, or demanded the United Nations be held in any way accountable for its lack of oversight in the camp. While Human Rights Watch acknowledged in a May 3 report that there was no evidence of a massacre and that Palestinian gunmen had contributed to endangering Palestinian civilians, they continued to emphasize that there was prima facie evidence Israel committed war crimes.”[7]

The Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council concluded an anti-Israel bias in the 2002 article titled, “Israel’s critics and their war with the truth.” Regarding an apparent double standard, this article questioned, “It is hard to explain why victims of slavery and slaughter are virtually ignored by American progressives. How can it be that there is no storm of indignation at Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch, which, though they rushed to Jenin to investigate false reports of Jews massacring Arabs, care so much less about Arab-occupied Juba, South Sudan's black capital? How can it be that they have not raised the roof about Khartoum's black slaves?”[8]

An NGO Monitor Summary in 2006 commented, “While NGO Monitor's analysis shows a significant reduction in Human Rights Watch's disproportionate focus on Israel in 2005, compared with 2004, clear evidence of systematic political bias remains.” NGO Monitor added, “Many HRW publications continue to reflect what can be described as gratuitous political attacks against Israel, often based on unverified media reports, and reflecting a hostile political agenda. Similarly, as found in NGO Monitor's 2004 report, HRW's use of language to condemn Israel is highly politicized, especially when compared to reports on other countries in the Middle East, such as Iran, Egypt, Syria, and Libya, and continues to deny Israel the right to self-defense under international law.”[9] A quantitative study carried out by NGO Monitor asserted an anti-Israel bias as well.[10]

Anne Bayefsky concluded that there was an anti-Semitic agenda at Human Rights Watch based on her observations at the 2001 World Conference against Racism. Bayefsky wrote, “When it comes to anti-Semitism and anti-Israel bias, Human Rights Watch still has a lot of explaining to do ¬ notwithstanding Executive Director Ken Roth's umbrage at criticism.” As a participant at the World Conference against Racism, Anne Bayefsky also commented on how she was excluded from the meeting due to her participation with The International Association of Jewish Lawyers and Jurists, “As we arrived at our meeting the chief Durban representative of Human Rights Watch, advocacy director Reed Brody, publicly announced that as a representative of a Jewish group I was unwelcome and could not attend.”[11]

Abraham Cooper, another participant at the 2001 World Conference against Racism, reiterated Anne Bayefsky’s conclusions when he wrote, “Contrary to the May 27 letter by the executive directors of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International U.S.A., Anne Bayefsky (Ending Bias in the Human Rights System, Op-Ed, May 22) was correct to criticize those two groups for their roles at the United Nations conference against racism in Durban, South Africa, last year.” Cooper added regarding the forum document, “The concerns of one group of victims -- the Jewish people -- were left off that document, with the silent acquiescence of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.” Abraham Cooper also recounted, “Like many other Jewish delegates at the conference, I was subjected to physical intimidation and threats.”[12]

Gerald Steinberg is one of the more vociferous critics of Human Rights Watch. In a 2006 National Review article titled “Human-Rights Schizophrenia” Steinberg wrote, “During the height of the terror attacks against Israel, HRW focused one-third of its entire Middle East effort on condemnations directed at Israel. This went far beyond legitimate criticism, and suggested an obsession.” Steinberg asserted further, “The most infuriating instance of HRW’s bias came in 2004, when Roth went to the American Colony Hotel in Jerusalem to promote “Razing Rafah,” a one sided denunciation of Israeli policy. Its contents were based primarily on unsubstantiated reports of Palestinians, selected journalists, and so-called experts on tunneling.” He concluded with, “So either it is I, along with other critics of HRW, who blindly oppose legitimate criticism of Israel (it might be dismissed as part of a neoconservative ideology), or it is Roth and HRW who apply different and unique criteria that single out Israel unfairly. The evidence shows that it is the latter.” [13]

Isi Leibler, a columnist for The Jerusalem Post, stated that Human Rights Watch is among the groups that, “Have long track records of bias and employing double standards in relation to Israel.”[14]

Elihai Braun wrote an entry for the Jewish Virtual Library regarding the 2001 World Conference against Racism. While not explicitly criticizing Human Rights Watch, Braun claimed that it was among the groups that endorsed a resolution containing anti-Jewish terms. Braun wrote, “Major human rights organizations such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Lawyers for Human Rights, and Physicians for Human Rights also expressed criticism of the anti-Jewish language of the NGO resolution, but raised their concerns two days after the conclusion of the NGO conference. Overall, they endorsed the resolution.”[15]

In an address to the Anti-Defamation League, a former Foreign Minister of Spain, Ana Palacio, asserted that Human Rights Watch ignored anti-Semitism as an issue of importance over other human rights issues, such as gay or refugee rights. In this address she stated, “Disinterested NGOs like Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International pay little attention to anti-Semitism.”[16]

O yeah.....thats it...them, the Nazis in Amnesty, Medicine Sans Frontiers, Bt'selem and JFJFP...plotting. ITS A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!MIT jACKBOOTS!!!!!!!

You're avoiding the fact that HRW has a proven anti-Semitic bias by attempting to lump it in with other human rights groups. Its not going to cut it. Address the anti-Semitic bias in HRW first, instead of trying to make it sound absurd by bringing in unrelated human rights groups.

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