NationStates Jolt Archive

As with regard to the statement of misleading recruiters, that is fundamentally flawed. It is not in the recruiter's best intrest to lie to an individual, for they may be held accountable if that individual disputes his contract.

I am confused why someone would call a recruiter untrustsworthy, for it is not the duty of a recruiter to inform you about the hardships or difficulties, this is left to the individual to inquire about. Recruiters are bound to awnser direct questions, thats why its merely having done research in advance to acquire the benefits and extra bonuses that are available.

They do mislead you (I'd give you my source, but it's having a fatal error whenever I try to load the page.). They do things like guarantee that student loans will be payed off (and other stuff like that). Things that then never happen. Military recruitment campaigns falsely glorify war and turn it into a video game (American Soldier? Or whatever it was called? They used that as a recruiting technique). They do all of this in front of a captive audience (school children who can't leave the lunch-room where they are stationed). They've gone as far as kidnapping one young man ( http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/paynter/227497_paynter08.html). You can certainly see why teens are more than a bit warry of them.

In that aspect, military can be trusted to awnser direct questions. Seriously, you think you are gonna go sign up for a 4 year vacation in Hawaii? No, its the M-I-L-I-T-A-R-Y... you know.. Normandy, Guadalcanal, Midway, etc.... yeah.... its those battles that lend respect to our military. (Btw. Its not just WW2 battles that have been fought in the name of American intrests, we are a superpower for a reason.)

I think you're ignoring the fact that the military has to answer to the same standards that ciggarette companies had to answer to in the 90's. When you are selling a potentially fatal product to teenagers (even though they legally must be 18 to buy it) and advertising to them with lies, you are violating the law.

VI
I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.


Every time I see God mentioned in one of those pledges it makes me cringe.

And I don't trust in the United States of America, given some of the crap our government does (like passing things like the patriot act, having defended racial seperation and oppression for decades, and now trying to deny gays the right to marry [and of course to serve]) I prefer not to trust the USA. I'd rather question it and make up my own mind in the end.

They do mislead you (I'd give you my source, but it's having a fatal error whenever I try to load the page.). They do things like guarantee that student loans will be payed off (and other stuff like that). Things that then never happen. Military recruitment campaigns falsely glorify war and turn it into a video game (American Soldier? Or whatever it was called? They used that as a recruiting technique). They do all of this in front of a captive audience (school children who can't leave the lunch-room where they are stationed). They've gone as far as kidnapping one young man ( http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/paynter/227497_paynter08.html). You can certainly see why teens are more than a bit warry of them.

It’s a contract; you have to read it all. If the recruiter tells you something it has to be in writing or it is not valid. That is where most people that have had a bad experience get in trouble. You have to read the whole thing. I got everything I was promised when I went into the military (but I made sure it was in the fine print). It is like any other business deal a spoken word or implied promise is worthless and will not stand up in any court. The recruiter does not falsely glorify war, military people are the ones that have to go fight, and very few of us wanted to, but when called we went because again it was what the main part of the enlistment contract stated, anything else was perifreal.

I think you're ignoring the fact that the military has to answer to the same standards that ciggarette companies had to answer to in the 90's. When you are selling a potentially fatal product to teenagers (even though they legally must be 18 to buy it) and advertising to them with lies, you are violating the law.


All recruiters tell a potential recruit that they may have to go to war, and anyone enlisting that thinks otherwise is an idiot, it is the military after all. It also stats the same thing in the enlistment contract. I have quite a few copies of mine around here and they all do state the fact that you are enlisting ion The Armed Forces of The United States, to defend the constitution of the United States, and may be called up to fight and possibly die. That is why you have to read the whole thing from top to bottom.

One more year of college....One more year of college...one more year of college...one more year of college...one more year of college...one more year of college..... Off to boot I go. No more NS for me. No more time home. No more of anything

The song "Not like you" by blood for blood sums up 90% of todays generation.


"Ain't Like You (Wasted Youth II)"

I AIN'T LIKE YOU!

And I don't want your love.
And I don't need your respect.
I just can't hate enough but I got no tears or regrets.

I ain't like you
I will never live like you and you will never walk the path I do.
I will never be like you and I'll never be a part of your society of lies and fools.
I will never live like you.
I will never walk the path you do.
I am your wasted youth so...
Fuck you and society too 'cause my kind just ain't like you.

Yeah, I'm a King of Nothing,
'cause nothing's what I am and nowhere is where I'll be.
But I'd rather be a king of nothing than a servant in a sick society
'cause pretty little children playing pretty little games in their pretty little worlds is all I've ever seen.
You've never felt my pain
And I just gotta say to your face I ain't like you.

I will never live like you
And you will never walk my path so...
Fuck you and your society too.

Once again I'm a King of Nothing,
'cause nothing's what I am and nowhere is where I'll be.
I'm a nowhere man from Nowhere, U.S.A.
It's a dead end street near you.
They broke my heart, they stole my soul and why?
I'll never know.
I'm exiled from all of you so...
Fuck you and the whole world too 'cause I will never live like you.


IIRC, out of my Junior class of Men and women, almost 20% are going into Police/Military careers. I am one of them, and so are several of my buddies. A damn fine career choice.

before this thread is completely dead listen to this.. i ahve been talking to someone about this thread .. and he brings up a very valid point

people need to realize that, we would die for them, they would not do that for us

before this thread is completely dead listen to this.. i ahve been talking to someone about this thread .. and he brings up a very valid point

people need to realize that, we would die for them, they would not do that for us

However, what you're failing to realize is that the military should never ask for said recognition. The military should carry on about it's mission regardless of whether or not they are respected. The military should provide an example of how people should behave, and that's where the respect should come from. From their example, nothing else. The problem is that these days a couple of handfuls of individuals are fucking all of this up for everyone else.

Also, you're not going to please everyone. There are some people who are just going to hate you regardless. The only course of action for you take if someone is screaming at you and calling you a babykiller is to say "Sir/Maam I disagree with what you are saying, but I respect your freedom of speech", perform an about face, and leave. Anything less would drag you down, and in doing so drag the entire military down.

I'm saying all of this as a US Army vet with 2 years in Germany, a year in Colorado, and a year in Iraq.

My favourite military quote:
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action!"
The reason I would never respect a soldier for being a soldier is because they don't respect themselves. No thinking person would sign away the right to think and act for themselves to be commanded about by anyone else.

Secondly (and this is where the hypocrisy sets in), if my family hadn't left the country when I was 16, I'd be serving in the German military for 9 months. And I would've done so because it would've been exciting and something different, knowing perfectly well that there was no risk of me actually having to fight anywhere. But I would never ever have demanded anything from anyone else. They already paid taxes for me to sit around, my food and my bed, and me being able to shoot a gun from time to time.

So to all the unappreciated soldiers: Quit your whining. If you were after admiration, you should have considered a different career. No one owes you anything. No one made you join the military, you did so because you thought it would be a good idea. Quit pretending its our fault you're making these sacrifices.

EDIT: That is not to say I can't respect someone who is in the military. But that would be because of other things they say and do. Being a soldier is a minus, as far as I'm concerned.

This shows you even the most brilliant of minds can sometimes be woefully wrong. Einstein said this and Newton believed in alchemy.:rolleyes:

Didn't Einstein have something to do with some kind of bomb oe something?


My favourite military quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Einstein
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action!"

My favourite military quote:

The reason I would never respect a soldier for being a soldier is because they don't respect themselves. No thinking person would sign away the right to think and act for themselves to be commanded about by anyone else.




A) What do you get out of saying this?... all of it? we do think for ourselves otherwise i would not be here talking to you, i love my job.

So to all the unappreciated soldiers: Quit your whining. If you were after admiration, you should have considered a different career. No one owes you anything. No one made you join the military, you did so because you thought it would be a good idea. Quit pretending its our fault you're making these sacrifices.

i am not saying it is your fault i am making these sacrifices only pointing out that it would be nice to be treated with the same respect as everyone else.... it seems to be a universal belief now days that as a military serviceman i am worrty of less respect (though many people have proven me wrong on this forum by saying that they have the same respect for me as any other engineer) or that i am less of a person...

people need to realize that, we would die for them, they would not do that for us
Really? Are you sure of that?

Really? Are you sure of that?

in general yes I am willing to die for everyone of you ... american or otherwise.. because it is my duty, and my honor to protect you

and in general no i do not think that the average citizen is willing to say the same for me

in general yes I am willing to die for everyone of you ... american or otherwise.. because it is my duty, and my honor to protect you

and in general no i do not think that the average citizen is willing to say the same for me
Then you have already forgotten the people you supposedly serve.

That is indeed sad.

A) What do you get out of saying this?... all of it? we do think for ourselves otherwise i would not be here talking to you, i love my job.
And your job is being told what to do, as part of a rigid top-down hierarchy. To me, that is not what being human is all about.
And that is not even considering the whole issue of killing people.

it seems to be a universal belief now days that as a military serviceman i am worrty of less respect (though many people have proven me wrong on this forum by saying that they have the same respect for me as any other engineer) or that i am less of a person...
Well, it may interest you that in Germany being a soldier is nothing special. I have a grandfather who was an active frontline soldier and a father who was a soldier as well. Quite a large percentage of males do their military service (although the numbers are getting smaller as there is no real military need for them). And as I said, if I wasn't on the other side of the world, I'd be a soldier too. But of course, that is a little bit different since they didn't necessarily join up voluntarily.

Now, there are primarily three things that bug me about the whole US soldiers and respect thing (it's not as much of an issue here in Oz, so it's primarily on this forum and with US soldiers that I encounter it):
- Firstly, there is this sense of entitlement. It's ridiculous. You say that you don't believe in that, which is fine, but many do. People know the options when they join the military, and they do so because they believe that they will be better off if they do it. It's a selfish decision - just as I don't believe that I have a responsibility to care about a poor person who wants my taxes as welfare, I have no responsibility for someone who thinks they want to go off and play war. If I think their choice is stupid, then I'll be damned before I will be forced to pretend that it's not.
- Secondly, the things that I value in a person are individual drive, ambition and achievement, particularly in a business environment. I don't care about brawn, I care about brains. Let's face it, the military is not the place to go for brains, unless you go into military intelligence or make it up the officer's career. That is not to say that soldiers are stupid, but it is to say that the military is not a place that encourages individualism, or even thinking for oneself. Try as I might, I can't but consider the voluntary choice to join such an organisation a character flaw. Again, this is completely ignoring the issue of killing people.
- And finally, I find that soldiers are usually rather patriotic/nationalistic/jingoistic. Pretty much by definition, I suppose. I, being an absolutely committed rationalist and internationalist, find that abhorrent.

People who join the military looking for respect are idiots. I respect people in the military just as much as I respect a teacher, firefighter, or computer programmer. Being in the military is a job just like everything else. The one just gets shot at.

Then you have already forgotten the people you supposedly serve.

That is indeed sad.

I serve my country, it's citizens my brothers and sisters in uniform all over the world, my friends, my family, myself....

i serve the world and preserve it's sanctity...

i serve the freedoms and principles this country was founded on

i serve the constitution, the founding fathers and all those that came after them

I serve my fellow patriots, my countrymen, and my president

I am A marine, and i am a human being

I serve for the values of honor courage and commitment.

I serve for one man, and every man

I Serve the united states of america

I serve for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

And most importantly i serve for freedom

It is my honor, my privladge, and my duty to die for each and every one of these things that i serve

I have not forgotten who i serve... i kno weverything that i serve for .. everything i am willing to die for everyone of you... and i honor those of you who would die for me

I honor all of you whether you would die for me or not

I honor all of you whether you would die for me or not
Right, that was a nice recap of the official line. Now, we were talking about independent thought...:rolleyes:

Just quit bragging about it. You will never die for any of those people, because the US Military is used in a way that will make you die for things like PNAC ideology and oncoming congress elections, rather than anything worthwhile.

I serve my country, it's citizens my brothers and sisters in uniform all over the world, my friends, my family, myself....

i serve the world and preserve it's sanctity...

i serve the freedoms and principles this country was founded on

i serve the constitution, the founding fathers and all those that came after them

I serve my fellow patriots, my countrymen, and my president

I am A marine, and i am a human being

I serve for the values of honor courage and commitment.

I serve for one man, and every man

I Serve the united states of america

I serve for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

And most importantly i serve for freedom

It is my honor, my privladge, and my duty to due for each and every one of these things that i serve

I have not forgotten who i serve... i kno weverything that i serve for .. everything i am willing to die for everyone of you... and i honor those of you who would die for me

I honor all of you whether you would die for me or not
No, you have forgotten those you would serve by stating that they would not die for you. You have forgotten that sacrifice is not found only in a uniform or that selfishness found in civilian dress.

You have forgotten that the military exists due to the work of the civilian. From the farmer and rancher you are fed. From the miner your equipment is made. From the weaver your clothing is given. From every part of America are you equiped, paid, and fed.

You have forgotten that you are not seperate from us, from the mass that is America you have come and to it you will return.

I didn't read all posts to see if this was said, but I think it needs to be said, if it wasn't already.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill


Soldiers I do respect a lot- not above all, though. Those who risk their lives protecting what I enjoy I cannnot help but respect. I think the military is honorable and to serve in it is one of the highest honors. To risk your life for an ideal- not simply work or duty- is a great thing, no matter who does it; be it soldier, missionary, etc. I, of course, don't say all soldiers fight for ideals. However, I do say that is, in effect, what they do. They fight for us and for America. Soldiers do it physically. Politcians do it verbally. They all deserve our respect.

No, you have forgotten those you would serve by stating that they would not die for you. You have forgotten that sacrifice is not found only in a uniform or that selfishness found in civilian dress.

You have forgotten that the military exists due to the work of the civilian. From the farmer and rancher you are fed. From the miner your equipment is made. From the weaver your clothing is given. From every part of America are you equiped, paid, and fed.

You have forgotten that you are not seperate from us, from the mass that is America you have come and to it you will return.

Very nicely done.

I didn't read all posts to see if this was said, but I think it needs to be said, if it wasn't already.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill


Soldiers I do respect a lot- not above all, though. Those who risk their lives protecting what I enjoy I cannnot help but respect. I think the military is honorable and to serve in it is one of the highest honors. To risk your life for an ideal- not simply work or duty- is a great thing, no matter who does it; be it soldier, missionary, etc. I, of course, don't say all soldiers fight for ideals. However, I do say that is, in effect, what they do. They fight for us and for America. Soldiers do it physically. Politcians do it verbally. They all deserve our respect.

you are the first person to even come close to saying that ... ^^.. but my post was just a simple question.. how it turned into this.. i have no idea ^^ but i'm glad it did.. if u had read all of the posts you would notice that equal respect is all i am asking for =)

Very nicely done.

i agree

No, you have forgotten those you would serve by stating that they would not die for you. You have forgotten that sacrifice is not found only in a uniform or that selfishness found in civilian dress.

You have forgotten that the military exists due to the work of the civilian. From the farmer and rancher you are fed. From the miner your equipment is made. From the weaver your clothing is given. From every part of America are you equiped, paid, and fed.

You have forgotten that you are not seperate from us, from the mass that is America you have come and to it you will return.

yose are not who i serve but who serve me... i respect and honor all men... and those who serve me with my life especially so .. without these men i would not live or thrive as a marine..... i know it sounds odd but like i said those are who serve me

i agree
yose are not who i serve but who serve me... i respect and honor all men... and those who serve me with my life especially so .. without these men i would not live or thrive as a marine..... i know it sounds odd but like i said those are who serve me
Then you have my respect, as long as you remember that.

*grins* I have had too many friends and family in the military, so it's hard to see you as seperate and it drives me nuts when I run into that. It's a job. It's a dirty job, a hard job, and in many ways, a very thankless job. It's also a nessicary job, though I wish it weren't. But it never makes someone seperate from the rest of the country.

That way of thinking leads to BAD THINGS, historically speaking.

Then you have my respect, as long as you remember that.

*grins* I have had too many friends and family in the military, so it's hard to see you as seperate and it drives me nuts when I run into that. It's a job. It's a dirty job, a hard job, and in many ways, a very thankless job. It's also a nessicary job, though I wish it weren't. But it never makes someone seperate from the rest of the country.

That way of thinking leads to BAD THINGS, historically speaking.

No it doesn't make me better then anyone else... none of us are ever (we are mostlyjust stupid kids who are patriotic and idealistic who turn out to be Adults and end up loving what we do) and you know.. it's the some reason some ppl go to college that is the reason we go to basic

Semper Fidelis!

Thanks, Frutap.

- Secondly, the things that I value in a person are individual drive, ambition and achievement, particularly in a business environment. I don't care about brawn, I care about brains. Let's face it, the military is not the place to go for brains, unless you go into military intelligence or make it up the officer's career. That is not to say that soldiers are stupid, but it is to say that the military is not a place that encourages individualism, or even thinking for oneself. Try as I might, I can't but consider the voluntary choice to join such an organisation a character flaw. Again, this is completely ignoring the issue of killing people.


The military you describe here doesn't really reflect the military I knew. For one, individual drive, ambition, and achievement are all highly valued in the military. No one does anything for you, least of all think. You have to prove yourself, make yourself valuable, and most importantly take personal responisbility for your failures as well as achievements.
To an extent you are right that the military does not encourage a hihg degree of individualism. This is mostly because there is no mission the military engages in that can really be doen outside of a group/team framework. All parts must be willing to work together, and accept that the teams goal is more important in that instance than any one individual member.
As to thinking for oneself, I think you are dead wrong. Sure, there is a hierarchy, and obediance to orders is a very important deal in the military. However, I would suggest that hierarchies exist in every facet of human interaction, whether you are fan of them or not. But, to be succesfull in the military you must think for yourself at almost any point. Orders cannot be carried out without thinking humans to determine the best course of action to take. The US military structure today places a high level of value on the individual soldiers(sailor/marine/ect..) ability to think individualy, to react thoughtfully, and adapt to an rapidly changing enviroment without constant supervision and guidance, since this is not always available.

Just my thoughts.

well it is time for me to hit the rack and let this thread die.. i guess i will talk to you all later ^^

The military you describe here doesn't really reflect the military I knew. For one, individual drive, ambition, and achievement are all highly valued in the military. No one does anything for you, least of all think. You have to prove yourself, make yourself valuable, and most importantly take personal responisbility for your failures as well as achievements.
To an extent you are right that the military does not encourage a hihg degree of individualism. This is mostly because there is no mission the military engages in that can really be doen outside of a group/team framework. All parts must be willing to work together, and accept that the teams goal is more important in that instance than any one individual member.
As to thinking for oneself, I think you are dead wrong. Sure, there is a hierarchy, and obediance to orders is a very important deal in the military. However, I would suggest that hierarchies exist in every facet of human interaction, whether you are fan of them or not. But, to be succesfull in the military you must think for yourself at almost any point. Orders cannot be carried out without thinking humans to determine the best course of action to take. The US military structure today places a high level of value on the individual soldiers(sailor/marine/ect..) ability to think individualy, to react thoughtfully, and adapt to an rapidly changing enviroment without constant supervision and guidance, since this is not always available.

Just my thoughts.


Well said, but unfortunatly some people here are to ignorant to understand that.

I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve... even on message boards on sites like deviantart which is targeted to all age groups as is the syrnia role playing game even mentioning serving in the military ends a discussion.. even on the proper forums.. it's not even like i am not on the right message board. What is the cause of the new found bitterness to the military.. there was once respect and valor in joining the service... now you publicly announce that you are a service man or woman and people scoff at you and call you a murderer.. at least for me it is.. and i understand tha tthe war makes it less popular w/ younger people.. but it shouldn't this much.. i don't know.. my random thought of the day

I dunno, maybe all those reports of torture might have something to do with it?

There's nothing quite like tarring everyone with the same brush. ;)

I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve... even on message boards on sites like deviantart which is targeted to all age groups as is the syrnia role playing game even mentioning serving in the military ends a discussion.. even on the proper forums.. it's not even like i am not on the right message board. What is the cause of the new found bitterness to the military.. there was once respect and valor in joining the service... now you publicly announce that you are a service man or woman and people scoff at you and call you a murderer.. at least for me it is.. and i understand tha tthe war makes it less popular w/ younger people.. but it shouldn't this much.. i don't know.. my random thought of the day

Maybe teens these days don't believe in murdering innocent people at the will of the government.

It is unfortunate that the need for militaries exists, and that we don't live in a peaceful world, but the fact is we don't live in a peaceful world. We never have, and we probably never will, so militaries are needed to protect one country's citizens from enemy militaries. It's true that without the military, all the freedoms and things most of us take for granted (such as this discussion) wouldn't exist.

However, that is true for almost every profession if you really boil down to it, like many on this forum have said already. That said, I hold respect for all those people, especially the one's in dangerous jobs. I respect the men and women in the military so much because they put their lives on the line to protect, help, and save the lives of the rest of us. I hold the same respect for policemen, firemen, paramedics, etc. Sure, some people in the military are bad news and do bad things, and I have little, if no, respect for those people (especially the one's who hide behind the military or use it to justify their actions). The same goes for corrupt cops and the like.

I also hold the same respect for those average joes (or janes) you sometimes see on the news who risk their life to save someone else, like Lenny Skutnik, for a well known example (the guy who jumped into the Potomac River after Florida Flight 90 crashed).

I find it sad that much of today's youth dislikes the people in the militaries (I have seen this first hand as well), and while I hold much respect for the people in the military, there are others I hold just as much, if not more, respect for.

My two cents.

you are the first person to even come close to saying that ... ^^.. but my post was just a simple question.. how it turned into this.. i have no idea ^^ but i'm glad it did.. if u had read all of the posts you would notice that equal respect is all i am asking for =)

You should read the thread then, I posted that quote 30 odd posts ago.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11208172#post11208172

you should respect the people in the military because without them we may not have the freedom to have this discussion.. w/o the military it is possible that we could all be in labor camps working for the japanese.. or hitler may still be in power.. i'm not just saying the american military i'm just saying international military

I don't get this argument. What about the other way around? The Waffen SS was army. Should we respect them? There were Japanese Army men in China - should we respect them for what they did? Army does not necessarily mean 'freedom'. As a matter of fact, mostly army represents repression of freedom (that starts with the army personel - everyone who served know how much individual freedom is repressed within - and potentially by the army). That's throughout history. Only since the USA came to be a world power (through military power, mostly), is the army promoted as 'defender of freedom' on a global basis.
I'm not judging whether this is 'good or evil'. We can obviously argue about this (well, anybody who truely wants to explore the philosophical aspect of this anyway - the die-hards on both sides of the political spectrum probably don't want to have any of it either way) this image of defending freedom is true, due to the fact of the second world war. On the otherside one can argue, that few countries which actually have had war on their territory see military as poorly good. Maybe the USA needs a war that spoils blood on their soil again to be reminded how terrible an army is.

The other issue is, that obviously right and wrong depend on whom you asked. Hitler believed, that he did the right thing. He believed, that he would save the human race and make the world a better one. If he would have won the war, his action would probably be considered as 'good'. And before I get bashed as a Nazi for this. Here another example: McNamara said that if the USA would have lost the war, they would have tried as war criminals for completely bruning down most major Japanese cities (plus nuking two of them). As Japan lost the war, it's now considered as 'necessary and acceptable'. It's always the winner of a war, who decides what is 'good' and what is 'evil'. This would lead into a discussion if there are any inherent 'ethics and morals' at all in the human being - or if it's just a intellectual and artifical construct.

Bringing this back to the topic. Should we respect all soldiers? I think, no. We can and shall respect individual soldiers for their individual actions. This black-and-white painting of every single topic is leading us nowhere (oh, well, nowhere where we want to be anyhow). People ahve to learn again to make their own ethical judgements, without anybody telling them what's right and wrong (and according to a famous German civilian, there's not ethical right or wrong anyway).

Adrian

I think this quotes sums up my thoughts quite well.

Quote:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-John Stewart Mill

Awesome quote. I love it.

The problem with this quote is, that personal safty and war are oxymorons.

how so?

before this thread is completely dead listen to this.. i ahve been talking to someone about this thread .. and he brings up a very valid point

people need to realize that, we would die for them, they would not do that for us

Wrong. I would die for you. But I wouldn't kill for you.

ahm...individual saftey and war...ahm...hello...guns...bombs...granades and such. If you argue that society's saftey or the saftey of an ideology can be protected with war: fair enough. Individual safty can never be protected with war.

The quote wasn't saying that war protects personal safety, it was saying that it's sad when personal safety is the only thing someone cares enough about to fight for.