NationStates Jolt Archive

I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve... even on message boards on sites like deviantart which is targeted to all age groups as is the syrnia role playing game even mentioning serving in the military ends a discussion.. even on the proper forums.. it's not even like i am not on the right message board. What is the cause of the new found bitterness to the military.. there was once respect and valor in joining the service... now you publicly announce that you are a service man or woman and people scoff at you and call you a murderer.. at least for me it is.. and i understand tha tthe war makes it less popular w/ younger people.. but it shouldn't this much.. i don't know.. my random thought of the day

The media tells them that hating the military is cool. Preteens blindly follow the media because the media told them that doing so was cool.

started with Vietnam, and still has never worked out of the culture. Servicemen do their job. I respect them as much as I respect others in dangerous jobs...no more, no less. They don't deserve to be fellated for doing their job any more than they deserve to be spit upon.

I dont disparage our military men for their choice, but I dont honor it above any other career choice really.

started with Vietnam, and still has never worked out of the culture. Servicemen do their job. I respect them as much as I respect others in dangerous jobs...no more, no less. They don't deserve to be fellated for doing their job any more than they deserve to be spit upon.
Well said and agreed to

The media tells them that hating the military is cool. Preteens blindly follow the media because the media told them that doing so was cool.
How so any media coverage of war protesters or anything of the sort was never put in a good or respected light that I can tell ... have anything more specific then "media"

How so any media coverage of war protesters or anything of the sort was never put in a good or respected light that I can tell ... have anything more specific then "media"
MTV/Much Music/Bitishh Music TV

MTV/Much Music/Bitishh Music TV
While I admit I am not a consumer of thoes channels when my younger bro watches them I have noticed nothing ... maybe I missed it

While I admit I am not a consumer of thoes channels when my younger bro watches them I have noticed nothing ... maybe I missed it
Well, most of last year, Green Day videos were overplay--all of which has a "war is bad, cuz like people die and break their nails" theme. I have only seen MTV on South Park, so I will let someone else deal with it. But Much Music pimps itself all the fucking time. The channel talks about itself like watching it will shoot you up the popularity ladder.

Well, most of last year, Green Day videos were overplay--all of which has a "war is bad, cuz like people die and break their nails" theme. I have only seen MTV on South Park, so I will let someone else deal with it. But Much Music pimps itself all the fucking time. The channel talks about itself like watching it will shoot you up the popularity ladder.
Not a fan myself as well ... and while I am against the war I dislike greendays excuse for an album they used to be alright, but there are plenty of things I want to hear in an album blatent politics does not make for a good long lasting album. Waayyy to blunt no class

No-one has ever properly explained to me why I should respect anyone who enters the military. Moreover, no-one has ever explained to me how the human brain is simply a lump of clay, shaped solely by the ‘media’.

*sigh* The blank slate pervades everywhere.

I dont disparage our military men and women for their choice, but I dont honor it above any other career choice really.

understandable... but still don't you think that these preteens should respect the military men and wonen just as much as they respect their doctors

understandable... but still don't you think that these preteens should respect the military men and wonen just as much as they respect their doctors

Why?

why?

edit: damn, beaten to the obvious question.

No-one has ever properly explained to me why I should respect anyone who enters the military. Moreover, no-one has ever explained to me how the human brain is simply a lump of clay, shaped solely by the ‘media’.

*sigh* The blank slate pervades everywhere.

you should respect the people in the military because without them we may not have the freedom to have this discussion.. w/o the military it is possible that we could all be in labor camps working for the japanese.. or hitler may still be in power.. i'm not just saying the american military i'm just saying international military

understandable... but still don't you think that these preteens should respect the military men and wonen just as much as they respect their doctors
Thank you for the correction ... ruinning on low sleep and would not wish to belitte females contrabution either.

And from what I can tell from todays teens they dont much respect anyone ... sorta like when I was a teen

Why?

Because the men and women save their lives just as the docters do.. just not in a direct way

W/o the military, leaders like hitler would never have come to power in the first place.

you should respect the people in the military because without them we may not have the freedom to have this discussion.. w/o the military it is possible that we could all be in labor camps working for the japanese.. or hitler may still be in power.. i'm not just saying the american military i'm just saying international military

not true. without the conscripted veterans of the second world war those scenarios may be fact. we owe the people who choose to be in the military today no more respect than any other working person.

W/o the military, leaders like hitler would never have come to power in the first place.

perhaps... but on the other hand.. hitler wasn't a military leader untill he was elected a chanceller of germany.. then he would have created his own military ...

you should respect the people in the military because without them we may not have the freedom to have this discussion.. w/o the military it is possible that we could all be in labor camps working for the japanese.. or hitler may still be in power.. i'm not just saying the american military i'm just saying international military
We owe the people who choose or were conscripted to fight for that war respect ... that does not make everyone in their profession deserving of respect.

you should respect the people in the military because without them we may not have the freedom to have this discussion.. w/o the military it is possible that we could all be in labor camps working for the japanese.. or hitler may still be in power.. i'm not just saying the american military i'm just saying international military
The problem with that statement is that the current troops did not fight in WWII. Nor did Iraq do anything to us ala Imperial Japan.

Not to mention just about every job can be said to contribute to life as we know it and if someone DIDN'T do it, our world would be drastically changed.

W/o the military, leaders like hitler would never have come to power in the first place.
beat me to it.

Remember, there are two sides to every war. Without the military, there would have been no Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, or imperial Japan, just as much as they wouldn't have been defeated.

not true. without the conscripted veterans of the second world war those scenarios may be fact. we owe the people who choose to be in the military today no more respect than any other working person.

so the people who saved the lives of the 9-11 victims that were saved (national guardsmen and the coast guard) do not deserve your respect...
i'll keep that in mind next time i am called out on sar

Not a fan myself as well ... and while I am against the war I dislike greendays excuse for an album they used to be alright, but there are plenty of things I want to hear in an album blatent politics does not make for a good long lasting album. Waayyy to blunt no class
By the third single, I almost favoured the war!

No-one has ever properly explained to me why I should respect anyone who enters the military. Moreover, no-one has ever explained to me how the human brain is simply a lump of clay, shaped solely by the ‘media’.

*sigh* The blank slate pervades everywhere.
Military (wo)men should be respected because they risk their lives in order to protect you and your families.

As for the media, if you hear "the war is bad" thirty times a day, for months on end, you will usually be conditioned into disliking the war (excepts do include people who think the media is biased, those who already have strong opinions on the subject, etc)

He only became chancellor because of the failures of previous military adventures.

*sigh* If only people could get along rather than go about killing one another.

you should respect the people in the military because without them we may not have the freedom to have this discussion.. w/o the military it is possible that we could all be in labor camps working for the japanese.. or hitler may still be in power.. i’m not just saying the american military i’m just saying international military
What a tired, old argument. Without the military, Hitler et all wouldn’t have been able to do a thing apart from stride about in a Beerhaus. ‘The Military’ isn’t some international freedom force, dedicated to peace and humanity. They are hundreds of seperate bodies of (mostly) men, dedicated to killing, maiming, bombing, and, in some instances, torturing for political ends.

Military (wo)men should be respected because they risk their lives in order to protect you and your families.
How, when and where? I live in Glasgow. When has anyone in military fatigues put their life on the line for me or my family?

As for the media, if you hear “the war is bad” thirty times a day, for months on end, you will usually be conditioned into disliking the war
I don’t know anyone as mallable as that!

He only became chancellor because of the failures of previous military adventures.

*sigh* If only people could get along rather than go about killing one another.

i agree with you there... really i do .. but there is no way to stop it untill the human race can agree to disagree on things like religion....

and untill then.. i live in my job
Senper Fidelis

it is my job to keep you safe
whether you respect me of not

so the people who saved the lives of the 9-11 victims that were saved (national guardsmen and the coast guard) do not deserve your respect...
i'll keep that in mind next time i am called out on sar
If memory serves, it was police and firefighters (and the paramedics) who were on the scene that horrible day. The were guardsmen (and women) amoung them, but they were not called out for it.

Honestly, I don't need the media to tell me that war is bad. I figured that one out a long time ago, just by reading a few history books.

so the people who saved the lives of the 9-11 victims that were saved (national guardsmen and the coast guard) do not deserve your respect...
i'll keep that in mind next time i am called out on sar

well if everyone in the military saved some people there then i would respect the military for it. as it stands, some of them did, and they weren't the only organisations with members doing the saving. individuals deserve respect but that respect does not therefore transfer to the organisations they are affiliated with when they do things that earns respect.

so the people who saved the lives of the 9-11 victims that were saved (national guardsmen and the coast guard) do not deserve your respect...
i'll keep that in mind next time i am called out on sar

they said that they don't deserve to be respected for what they did not do, nor do they deserve to be respected above others who have "important" jobs (for lack of a better word). He did not say that they do not deserve respect.



I personally say that I will respect the ones that deserve it. There are plenty of doctors, lawyers, teachers, et. al. that I do not respect. There are plenty more that I do. Those who have earned it, get it. Those who have earned my disdain, get it. Those who have done neither are just another face.

i agree with you there... really i do .. but there is no way to stop it untill the human race can agree to disagree on things like religion....

and untill then.. i live in my job
Senper Fidelis

it is my job to keep you safe
whether you respect me of not
You must be tried. Isn't it Semper Fidelis?

If memory serves, it was police and firefighters (and the paramedics) who were on the scene that horrible day. The were guardsmen (and women) amoung them, but they were not called out for it.

my father (in the coast guard) was sent out from group morichies that day, on long island on the orion ... they were out ther patrolling and fighting the fires and Doing the SAR that day... you don't hear about these things because the media doesn't want you to know

You must be tried. Isn't it Semper Fidelis?

haha jet lag yeas semper fidelis...
i just got stationed from Paris island to arizonia ^^

wait... so i am just out of basic trianing.. jsut stationed in arizonia.. in the marine corps.. and you don't respect the fact that i went through 13 weeks of HELL because i wanted to protect you .. the citizens of this great nation

so the people who saved the lives of the 9-11 victims that were saved (national guardsmen and the coast guard) do not deserve your respect...
i’ll keep that in mind next time i am called out on sar
Jeez, how quick can you get at pulling out the ol’ 9-11 card?

Jeez, how quick can you get at pulling out the ol’ 9-11 card?

most recent thing i could think of to get the point across

my father (in the coast guard) was sent out from group morichies that day, on long island on the orion ... they were out ther patrolling and fighting the fires and Doing the SAR that day... you don't hear about these things because the media doesn't want you to know
bollocks. you don't hear about those things cuz there was a whole lot else going on and the deeds of some got overlooked and forgotten in the confusion. seriously, the 'liberal' media bias/conspiracy argument is getting tired and boring.

my father (in the coast guard) was sent out from group morichies that day, on long island on the orion ... they were out ther patrolling and fighting the fires and Doing the SAR that day... you don't hear about these things because the media doesn't want you to know
Considering the news coverage of that day, I find it highly unlikely that the media directly ignored it.

wait... so i am just out of basic trianing.. jsut stationed in arizonia.. in the marine corps.. and you don't respect the fact that i went through 13 weeks of HELL because i wanted to protect you .. the citizens of this great nation
put simply, no.

I might have a little more respect for the military if it weren't for what seem sto be a large majority of people in the military.

Generally seeming to be ultra-conservative, gay-hating, misanthropists. At least the ones I've run into. When you're scared of the people in your own military that are supposed to be 'protecting' you, its hard to respect them.

bollocks. you don't hear about those things cuz there was a whole lot else going on and the deeds of some got overlooked and forgotten in the confusion. seriously, the 'liberal' media bias/conspiracy argument is getting tired and boring.

did i say anything about liberal vs conservative media.. of bias in general

Well, most of last year, Green Day videos were overplay--all of which has a "war is bad, cuz like people die and break their nails" theme. I have only seen MTV on South Park, so I will let someone else deal with it. But Much Music pimps itself all the fucking time. The channel talks about itself like watching it will shoot you up the popularity ladder.

It would help if Green Day actually had any talent.

wait... so i am just out of basic trianing.. jsut stationed in arizonia.. in the marine corps.. and you don't respect the fact that i went through 13 weeks of HELL because i wanted to protect you .. the citizens of this great nation
I respect the fact that you did go through that hell. I have several friends who have, as well as a cousin who soon will be doing so.

But no, I don't place you, nor them, above any other dangerous job. The fact is, you chose to go that route. I chose to go my route, and I work my ass off to get where I want. Sure, it isn't physical, but damned if I don't work hard.

For example...my cousin is an idiot. Not because he is in the military, but because he is. He always has been, always will be. The military won't be changing my opinion of him. I respect the fact that he made this choice, and I respect the fact that he is willing to work his ass off for it. But I don't place him above myself just because he will be working his ass off physically while I work my ass off mentally.

put simply, no.

that is comforting.. to know that the people i'm doing this for don't like me...

sigh
i'ma get my DI up in ur face
you might change ur ming
Lol
j/k

wait... so i am just out of basic trianing.. jsut stationed in arizonia.. in the marine corps.. and you don't respect the fact that i went through 13 weeks of HELL because i wanted to protect you .. the citizens of this great nation

Ok... And?

That neither means that a teenager is going to feel fully positive towards you (After all, we've built up a healthy distaste for the military after all the bastard recruiters you've stuck in our schools) nor that they asked you to do it. I think you overstate the case that teens "hate" members of the military. Most of us just have no desire to join it. There's a large difference between the two. We no longer trust members of the military fully any more (because we've all see people suckered by the recruiters on campus, and we've seen their game), but that's different as well.

did i say anything about liberal vs conservative media.. of bias in general

not in so many words. i was just filling in the obvious blanks left out here:

you don't hear about these things because the media doesn't want you to know
there are many people with your supposed background and views on these forums who pretty much all say the same thing.

wait... so i am just out of basic trianing.. jsut stationed in arizonia.. in the marine corps.. and you don't respect the fact that i went through 13 weeks of HELL because i wanted to protect you .. the citizens of this great nation
Dude... My family has been in every single war back to the Revolution. I am the first son who has NOT gone off to war for the US (thanks to being unable to join). I also have roomed with and been close friends of both active, retired, and reserve personell of every branch of the US military. So I got to hear a lot of stories about life in the ranks and files, inlcluding how hard it was to play PlayStation for 8 hours a day.

I respect those people who have actually done something worthy of respect. Earn your stripes and tell me about and THEN I will accord you more respect than I would currently. Just because you passed basic doesn't mean anything.

You've passed, you're certified, now go do something with that.

that is comforting.. to know that the people i'm doing this for don't like me...

sigh
i'ma get my DI up in ur face
you might change ur ming
Lol
j/k

well my answer was fairly easy as soon as i read "i am just out of basic trianing". you've done nothing, don't ask for my respect.

edit: sorry, i'm quite tired and suffering from nicotine withdrawal, i don't mean to sound so arsey. i'm usually much less blunt

I respect those people who have actually done something worthy of respect. Earn your stripes and tell me about and THEN I will accord you more respect than I would currently. Just because you passed basic doesn't mean anything.

You've passed, you're certified, now go do something with that.
NER, I request this of you again...


have my man-babies?

Fru- I wouldn't take it personally. Like I don't dislike you persoanlly because of your choice to be in the military. I've had some bad experiences with people that are/have been active in the armed services. I really don't want to talk about it, but lets just say that I don't really feel any safer around a group of military guys than I would around a group of gang members.

Fru- I wouldn't take it personally. Like I don't dislike you persoanlly because of your choice to be in the military. I've had some bad experiences with people that are/have been active in the armed services. I really don't want to talk about it, but lets just say that I don't really feel any safer around a group of military guys than I would around a group of gang members.
i'll second that. my sentiments exactly.

NER, I request this of you again...


have my man-babies?
*lol* If you can figure out a way to keep my fiancee from skinning us both alive.

Never piss off a Japanese woman. Especially one that's good with knives. ;)

wait... so i am just out of basic trianing.. jsut stationed in arizonia.. in the marine corps.. and you don’t respect the fact that i went through 13 weeks of HELL because i wanted to protect you .. the citizens of this great nation
Whoop-dee-fucking-doo. So you chose to go through 13 weeks of unnessessary hardship. Why should I care or respect that?

Ok... And?

That neither means that a teenager is going to feel fully positive towards you (After all, we've built up a healthy distaste for the military after all the bastard recruiters you've stuck in our schools) nor that they asked you to do it. I think you overstate the case that teens "hate" members of the military. Most of us just have no desire to join it. There's a large difference between the two. We no longer trust members of the military fully any more (because we've all see people suckered by the recruiters on campus, and we've seen their game), but that's different as well.

you don't go to my school... we have a JROTC program... and they way cadets are treated by other kids at school you would retract that not hating the military statement in a heartbeat.. no one outside of the ROTC talks to anyone in it... and you may see where i came up with my opinion... and these recruiters dont tell them to join.. they give them the option.. tell them eeverything.. Booth was great he told me exactly how it was to qoute him directly actually on 2 seperate occasions

"when you got outta paris island you will be strong... you'll be stupid but strong"
and
"the miniute you step on that bus you lose all induviduality, your mind starts to go the miniute you step off"....
they tell you what they think about the military.. if a recruiter truly thinks it is the greatest thing.. he'll tell you
but the decision is up yo you

W/o the military, leaders like hitler would never have come to power in the first place.
The fact everyone seems to forget is that there is violence and creativity buried in the psyche, unremovable without the use of brainwashing. That means some bastard will invent the sword... the crossbow... the gun... the tank... the nuke. It's nature. Now, governments may prevent their use by anyone, and then along comes a charismatic, respected, thoroughly insane leader who wants to wipe a religion off the face of the earth and reduce most other religions and any political system or way of life that isn't "aryan" enough off the face of the Earth. He'll use the gun... and no one will be there to stop him.

Soldiers, sailors, airmen, troopers, marines, pioneers, or whatever I have to call them because of some ancient tradition are people. People who, out of patriotism, machoness, or drunkeness have joined the killing industry. They're no less people for it, any more than an American judge who sentences a man to death.

*lol* If you can figure out a way to keep my fiancee from skinning us both alive.

Never piss off a Japanese woman. Especially one that's good with knives. ;)
3some? no? ah well, a fluffle shall have to do.:fluffle:

Whoop-dee-fucking-doo. So you chose to go through 13 weeks of unnessessary hardship. Why should I care or respect that?

it's unneccecary for an induvidual yes.. but as soon as i stepped off that bus i wasn't an iduvidual... see without the military... then you wouldn't be able to sit here and say that stuff.. no worries though.. i get it

The fact everyone seems to forget is that there is violence and creativity buried in the psyche, unremovable without the use of brainwashing. That means some bastard will invent the sword... the crossbow... the gun... the tank... the nuke. It's nature.
yay, it's unsubstantiated assertion time. w00t!

it's unneccecary for an induvidual yes.. but as soon as i stepped off that bus i wasn't an iduvidual... see without the military... then you wouldn't be able to sit here and say that stuff.. no worries though.. i get it
Without the dedication and hard work of a lot of people, neither would you.

you don't go to my school... we have a JROTC program... and they way cadets are treated by other kids at school you would retract that not hating the military statement in a heartbeat.. no one outside of the ROTC talks to anyone in it... and you may see where i came up with my opinion... and these recruiters dont tell them to join.. they give them the option.. tell them eeverything.. Booth was great he told me exactly how it was to qoute him directly actually on 2 seperate occasions

"when you got outta paris island you will be strong... you'll be stupid but strong"
and
"the miniute you step on that bus you lose all induviduality, your mind starts to go the miniute you step off"....
they tell you what they think about the military.. if a recruiter truly thinks it is the greatest thing.. he'll tell you
but the decision is up yo you
however, I go to BU, one of the more liberal universities in the united states. We have a huge ROTC program, and those students are not treated any differently. They work their asses off for the same grades we do. They party with us. They have their out of class activities that they work hard for. They are students, just like us, and are treated thusly.

And I personally have delt with military recruiters trying to trick me. The fact is, when you are in ROTC or jROTC, you have expressed an interest in the military already. They don't need to trick you into "trying" it out. Students who have never shown any desire, on the other hand...

it's unneccecary for an induvidual yes.. but as soon as i stepped off that bus i wasn't an iduvidual... see without the military... then you wouldn't be able to sit here and say that stuff.. no worries though.. i get it
without some engineers, I wouldn't be here. Without some doctors, I wouldn't be here. Without some teachers, I wouldn't be here. Without alot of people, I wouldn't be here. Military is only a small part of free speech. And remember, not all militaries fight FOR free speech, if you are still trying to speak from the international pov.

The fact everyone seems to forget is that there is violence and creativity buried in the psyche, unremovable without the use of brainwashing. That means some bastard will invent the sword... the crossbow... the gun... the tank... the nuke. It's nature. Now, governments may prevent their use by anyone, and then along comes a charismatic, respected, thoroughly insane leader who wants to wipe a religion off the face of the earth and reduce most other religions and any political system or way of life that isn't "aryan" enough off the face of the Earth. He'll use the gun... and no one will be there to stop him.

Soldiers, sailors, airmen, troopers, marines, pioneers, or whatever I have to call them because of some ancient tradition are people. People who, out of patriotism, machoness, or drunkeness have joined the killing industry. They're no less people for it, any more than an American judge who sentences a man to death.


And you'll have created a military as soon as you enlist people to use those guns, hence eliminating the whole there's no military to prop up a hitler (etc etc) part of my post. If people just refused to fight, there'd be no hitler etc even if they did invent a sword, gun, slingshot, oatmeal catapult...

Without the dedication and hard work of a lot of people, neither would you.

adn see i respect everyone who came before me though.. everyone who will come after me yes .. but when you (as a people not just you) tell me that it is not worthy of respect i get well edgy let's say

i am an idealistic person.. and this started out as a simple question and i got my answer the media... so Smiles ^^

it’s unneccecary for an induvidual yes.. but as soon as i stepped off that bus i wasn’t an iduvidual
Eh? If you weren’t an individual what in Chaos’ name were you? Part of a hive mind?

see without the military... then you wouldn’t be able to sit here and say that stuff.. no worries though.. i get it
How wouldn’t I? You still seem to be equating military with the US armed forces, whic is frankly bizarre. Explain to me again how in a world without any military I’d be any worse off.

without some engineers, I wouldn't be here. Without some doctors, I wouldn't be here. Without some teachers, I wouldn't be here. Without alot of people, I wouldn't be here. Military is only a small part of free speech. And remember, not all militaries fight FOR free speech, if you are still trying to speak from the international pov.

no that was using the first amendment of the american constitution.. but i am just saying that the millitary and it's personalle should get the same respect as the doctors engineers and teachers.. no more no less

adn see i respect everyone who came before me though.. everyone who will come after me yes .. but when you (as a people not just you) tell me that it is not worthy of respect i get well edgy let's say

i am an idealistic person.. and this started out as a simple question and i got my answer the media... so Smiles ^^
I respect you as a human being, I refuse to accord you extra respect just because of your job choice till you do something worthy of extra respect.

However, I doubt very much the media is to blaim (Or compleately) for lack of respect for the military right now.

Eh? If you weren’t an individual what in Chaos’ name were you? Part of a hive mind?
a unit we were a unit


How wouldn’t I? You still seem to be equating military with the US armed forces, whic is frankly bizarre. Explain to me again how in a world without any military I’d be any worse off.

chaos and anarchy my friend.. government and military have gone hand in had for a very very very long time... And w/o a military most governments would have never come into power no government=anarchy

adn see i respect everyone who came before me though.. everyone who will come after me yes .. but when you (as a people not just you) tell me that it is not worthy of respect i get well edgy let's say

i am an idealistic person.. and this started out as a simple question and i got my answer the media... so Smiles ^^
well, it isn't so simple as "the media"...that is a cop out, to put it simply.

I don't respect the men who killed in My Lai. They deserve to be spat upon. I respect the men who ended it. They deserve to be bowed down towards. Everyone in the middle? well, they're just another person, as far as I'm concerned.

If you want my respect, as well as many other people here, then earn it. You're in the military. Great. Wonderful. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to massacre hundreds because your commanding officer says to? Or are you going to end a massacre and risk imprisonment because it is the right thing to do? Or, will you be one of the thousands who plays ps2 for 8 hours a day?

In that decision, you will have my disdain, respect, or lack of both.

well, it isn't so simple as "the media"...that is a cop out, to put it simply.

I don't respect the men who killed in My Lai. They deserve to be spat upon. I respect the men who ended it. They deserve to be bowed down towards. Everyone in the middle? well, they're just another person, as far as I'm concerned.

If you want my respect, as well as many other people here, then earn it. You're in the military. Great. Wonderful. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to massacre hundreds because your commanding officer says to? Or are you going to end a massacre and risk imprisonment because it is the right thing to do? Or, will you be one of the thousands who plays ps2 for 8 hours a day?

In that decision, you will have my disdain, respect, or lack of both.

well i can't be stationed on the front lines in iraq.. i'm female.. and in that respect i do believe that if what my batallion/company/platoon/whicheverformationiwasin was partaking in something inhumane and moraly dispicable.. i would stop it though i can not say for sure
And on top of that all
i'm an engineer i fix uh-60 (black hawks).. so i can never earn your respect because i don't fight

no that was using the first amendment of the american constitution.. but i am just saying that the millitary and it's personalle should get the same respect as the doctors engineers and teachers.. no more no less
what good is free speech without a place to speak? without a voice to speak with? without intelligence to back that speech? Without the education to know that I can say what I believe and not have to fear my life? and the knowledge that that is a privilege? I understand what you were going for, but a piece of paper that says "you have free speech" means very little without all of these things.

As I said before, I don't respect all doctors, engineers, teachers, military men, etc. They must do something with their skills to get my respect. I respect the work they put in to getting where they are...beyond that, they are just...there. You must earn my respect. Do good, and you will get it (and yes, I mean "do good", not "do well").

i am an idealistic person.. and this started out as a simple question and i got my answer the media... so Smiles ^^
you got an answer you were looking for. it's never as simple as 'teh media'.

adn see i respect everyone who came before me though.. everyone who will come after me yes .. but when you (as a people not just you) tell me that it is not worthy of respect i get well edgy let's say

i am an idealistic person.. and this started out as a simple question and i got my answer the media... so Smiles ^^

A person is worthy of respect if they do something to earn respect. And as respect is something entireyl subjective, I can only talk about my respect.
I don't respect people less for joining the military (I will assume, however, that our views of the world don't really match, but that's another issue), but I don't see why I should respect them more.

I do, for example, have great respect for both my brothers, as they chose not to do the cumpolsory military service in Germany, but instead spent that time in a social service, one working with mentally handicapped people and the other one in a retirement home/hospice. By doing so they showed compassion, devotion and immense respect for other people.
One of my brothers told me about a conversation he had with my grandfather, who told him that it is incomprehensible to him how his grandson could actually help these people wash or use the toilet, my grandfather was disgusted by the mere thought. Coming from someone who fought and killed in WW II, that made me even prouder of my brothers.

well i can't be stationed on the front lines in iraq.. i'm female.. and in that respect i do believe that if what my batallion/company/platoon/whicheverformationiwasin was partaking in something inhumane and moraly dispicable.. i would stop it though i can not say for sure
And on top of that all
i'm an engineer i fix uh-60 (black hawks).. so i can never earn your respect because i don't fight
so you get as much respect as any other engineer. you don't get more cuz you're a military engineer unless you do something over and above what is expected of you as an engineer. get over yourself and live with it.

well i can't be stationed on the front lines in iraq.. i'm female.. and in that respect i do believe that if what my batallion/company/platoon/whicheverformationiwasin was partaking in something inhumane and moraly dispicable.. i would stop it though i can not say for sure
And on top of that all
i'm an engineer i fix uh-60 (black hawks).. so i can never earn your respect because i don't fight
you work black hawks? haha...thats awesome. My uncle worked on that project for Sikorsky.


And no, you don't have to be on the front line to do good. there are many many other ways to do good than just being on the front line. It might not even be directly tied into the military.

so you get as much respect as any other engineer. you don't get more cuz you're a military engineer. get over yourself and live with it.

are you listing to me i don't want any more ... but "youth today' seems to look down on military men and women... are you a youth..? if you are i apoligize but otherwise this arguement is not aimed at you

you don't go to my school... we have a JROTC program... and they way cadets are treated by other kids at school you would retract that not hating the military statement in a heartbeat.. no one outside of the ROTC talks to anyone in it... and you may see where i came up with my opinion... and these recruiters dont tell them to join.. they give them the option.. tell them eeverything.. Booth was great he told me exactly how it was to qoute him directly actually on 2 seperate occasions

"when you got outta paris island you will be strong... you'll be stupid but strong"
and
"the miniute you step on that bus you lose all induviduality, your mind starts to go the miniute you step off"....
they tell you what they think about the military.. if a recruiter truly thinks it is the greatest thing.. he'll tell you
but the decision is up yo you

Man, you don't know the half of it. The entire way the military recruiters go about things is false advertising. If a corporate entity went about recruiting the same way that they do 'round here, they'd get a lawsuit slapped on them so fast they wouldn't know what the fuck hit them. They create a false environment where a bunch of guarantees get made that are totally false get spread around. The hostility that produces towards recruiters is obvious. When a company tries to sell you a product that doesn't do what it says it does, do you like them for it? Of course not!

In my experience the seperation of "future military" members and those who are not is that the "future military" types want nothing to do with people who are totally disinterested in the entire military affair. They come around and wear uniforms to act as their own form of advertising, they look down their noses at people who don't want to join, and generally act hostile towards their peers. Do you expect their peers to love them for acting like that? Of course not!

And on top of that all
i'm an engineer i fix uh-60 (black hawks).. so i can never earn your respect because i don't fight
Not at all. Doing a job well and keeping equipment fit is worthy of respect.

It's the sitting on the rear and expecting us to fall over ourselves in worship due to your clothing is what annoys me.

Though with your clarification of gender, there will probably be more than enough guys running into this thread to worship.

NS General is full of lonely geeks after all. ;)

Can I get some respect just because I'm a lawyer? I mean everyone hates lawyers, we're the butt of tons of jokes and people want to kill us first when the revolution comes.

However people always seem to forget, without us, there'd be no Constiutution of the United States. Yes, that's true. A large number of the delegates who drafted that thing were in the legal profession. Amazing isn't it?

a unit we were a unit
LOL, sounds a bit too bolshevik for my liking! Not an individual, dear me....

chaos and anarchy my friend.. government and military have gone hand in had for a very very very long time... And w/o a military most governments would have never come into power no government=anarchy
No government=statelessness. Anarchy is a different, possibly unatainable, thing altogether. But that’s a discussion for another thread.

So your argument is that because some form of military has helped prop up some form of governmental power in the past, I should ‘support the troops’ (whatever that means... I’ve never trusted that term. Sounds too much like ‘never question the troops’)? And that without the military forces around the world, we would all decend into chaos?

Seems like hokum to me. Costa Rica’s doing allright.

are you listing to me i don't want any more ... but "youth today' seems to look down on military men and women... are you a youth..? if you are i apoligize but otherwise this arguement is not aimed at you
alright, chill! blimey... well i'm probably the same age or a little older than you. i don't know how much education you completed before your basic training. i consider myself a youth. i'm certainly not an adult although i'm not legally a minor.

oh, also, forgot to say. you get respect for being one of the few women entering into a very male chauvenist world with (i presume) a will to survive.

Not at all. Doing a job well and keeping equipment fit is worthy of respect.

It's the sitting on the rear and expecting us to fall over ourselves in worship due to your clothing is what annoys me.

Though with your clarification of gender, there will probably be more than enough guys running into this thread to worship.

NS General is full of lonely geeks after all. ;)

yes i figured as much...
but see some people don't care... they don't respect any one .. hehe i don't care anymore.. i give up on the human race.. conservative, liberal, male, female, youth, adult i just give up

Can I get some respect just because I'm a lawyer? I mean everyone hates lawyers, we're the butt of tons of jokes and people want to kill us first when the revolution comes.

However people always seem to forget, without us, there'd be no Constiutution of the United States. Yes, that's true. A large number of the delegates who drafted that thing were in the legal profession. Amazing isn't it?

and you know i respect everyone... untill they do or say something to lose that.. i am not saying that i don't respect you more or less then i do anyone else

are you listing to me i don't want any more ... but "youth today' seems to look down on military men and women... are you a youth..? if you are i apoligize but otherwise this arguement is not aimed at you

So you are worried because youths don't respect the military? Big deal. Show me something they DO respect.... :rolleyes:

yes i figured as much...
but see some people don't care... they don't respect any one .. hehe i don't care anymore.. i give up on the human race.. conservative, liberal, male, female, youth, adult i just give up
Hate to tell you this, but that's the world over. I'm a teacher, do you REALLY think I get a lot of respect?

But good luck with your future, may you find what it is you seek, and may it be what you were really looking for.

So you are worried because youths don't respect the military? Big deal. Show me something they DO respect.... :rolleyes:

touche (i spelled that wrong.0 well off to bed i need to wake up in 5 hours neway

yes i figured as much...
but see some people don't care... they don't respect any one .. hehe i don't care anymore.. i give up on the human race.. conservative, liberal, male, female, youth, adult i just give up
as far as I can see, no one on this thread disrespects people just because they are in the military. As I said in my first post, they don't deserve to be fellated any more than they deserve to be spat upon. They are just another person untill they do something worth a judgement.

I don't respect my fathers ex coworker, he was a horrid doctor who put my mothers life at risk. I respect my personal doctor, he is good at his job. I don't know your doctor, and so place no judgement on him/her. That simple. Both doctors, one respected, one not.

yes i figured as much...
but see some people don’t care... they don’t respect any one .. hehe i don’t care anymore.. i give up on the human race.. conservative, liberal, male, female, youth, adult i just give up
That’s allright then, we’re not that worthy anyway. You just fix those chopters and convince yourself you’re not fighting. That’ll be the Black-Hawks carrying troops into combat, or just the ones converting hearts and minds?

Hate to tell you this, but that's the world over. I'm a teacher, do you REALLY think I get a lot of respect?

But good luck with your future, may you find what it is you seek, and may it be what you were really looking for.
why am I planning to be a teacher again?

hell, I can make more yearly as a bartender...

*sigh*

I'm proud of NZ's army.. Or lack of.

Seriously though, we do some good peace-keeping. I like that.

why am I planning to be a teacher again?

hell, I can make more yearly as a bartender...

*sigh*
Because after graduation when a student comes up to you in tears and says that you infulanced her choice to study abroad in New Zealand and she'll always remember you... it's worth every horrid education thread on NS.

christ, it's, like, a million o'clock in the morning. i'm going to bed.

Because after graduation when a student comes up to you in tears and says that you infulanced her choice to study abroad in New Zealand and she'll always remember you... it's worth every horrid education thread on NS.
*sigh*

know what other people would find really sad? You're right.

I anythng there's been an increase in the respect shown to the military since recent years(in Australia) i remember seeing an article in a newspaper about introducing cadet programs to schools again.

I think its because so many people are becomming to soft for the idea of the military/war ect because of all these television shows with bright dancing colours and sublinimal messages.

The media tells them that hating the military is cool. Preteens blindly follow the media because the media told them that doing so was cool.

Solution: start treating dissing the Services as a criminal offence.

MTV/Much Music/Bitishh Music TV

Terrible, terrible TV, I'm glad we don't get it.

I'd say, I dunno, media hasn't relly put it in a good light, with the whole war crimes thing...

I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve... even on message boards on sites like deviantart which is targeted to all age groups as is the syrnia role playing game even mentioning serving in the military ends a discussion.. even on the proper forums.. it's not even like i am not on the right message board. What is the cause of the new found bitterness to the military.. there was once respect and valor in joining the service... now you publicly announce that you are a service man or woman and people scoff at you and call you a murderer.. at least for me it is.. and i understand tha tthe war makes it less popular w/ younger people.. but it shouldn't this much.. i don't know.. my random thought of the day

maybe people are realising there is no glory in war, and that serving a part of it does not grant one valor or instant respect (at least not for simply serving - i can respect an individual's actions in war, for example, or respect an individual for having the guts to put his/her life on the line like that, or for the physical difficulties they endure, but not for simply being a part of war)

as far as I can see, no one on this thread disrespects people just because they are in the military.


I do.
If it's good enough for Einstein...

I do.
If it's good enough for Einstein...
If it hadn't been for the military, Einstein would have died in a concentration camp. :rolleyes:

If it hadn't been for the military, Einstein would have died in a concentration camp. :rolleyes:

And?

Serving in any military doesn't earn you respect. Serving in the military in order to keep people safe does. For example, I don't see any honour in serving in the NAZI ranks, but there was a great deal of it in the soldiers sent to liberate the nations which had fallen under German rule, and ultimately remove a brutal dictator. There will always be war and death in the world, and I will always have respect for those who put their lives on the line in order to stop it, despite what their leadership twists their good intentions into.

And?
Well, despising the very people that protect you... how do you call this?

If it hadn't been for the military, Einstein would have died in a concentration camp. :rolleyes:

Fascinating. I believe Einstein fled Nazi Germany sometime before the camps and made it safely to the United States. So you were saying?

Fascinating. I believe Einstein fled Nazi Germany sometime before the camps and made it safely to the United States. So you were saying?
Are you telling me that, if it hadn't been for the American army, Hitler would have sat quietly on his side of the Atlantic? :rolleyes:

Are you telling me that, if it hadn't been for the American army, Hitler would have sat quietly on his side of the Atlantic? :rolleyes:

I like to think the other allied armies had a little something to do with stopping Hitler. Research Operation Bagration, for example.

However, as has been copiously pointed out to me, despite my personal beliefs, Nazi Germany would more than likely have not invaded the United States.

I like to think the other allied armies had a little something to do with stopping Hitler. Research Operation Bagration, for example.

However, as has been copiously pointed out to me, despite my personal beliefs, Nazi Germany would more than likely have not invaded the United States.

... because the United States had an ARMY, which we are assuming didn't exist/was completely useless in this scenario.

Yes, because Hitler believed that the "American Melting Pot" idea was just swell... please, unopposed Hitler would have taken the entire world.

... because the United States had an ARMY, which we are assuming didn't exist/was completely useless in this scenario.

The Red Army still existed, of course, as did the other allied armies.

If it hadn't been for the military, Einstein would have died in a concentration camp. :rolleyes:

For that matter, without the military, who would have made the concentration camps in the first place?

Are you telling me that, if it hadn't been for the American army, Hitler would have sat quietly on his side of the Atlantic? :rolleyes:
Ah yeah... the USSR were commies, so they don't matter... that'd be it.

And Hitler wasn't going over to the US, even after they'd supported the USSR and Britain, after Dunkirk, was he?

What's to say that it would have happened at all?

Ah yeah... the USSR were commies, so they don't matter... that'd be it.

And Hitler wasn't going over to the US, even after they'd supported the USSR and Britain, after Dunkirk, was he?

What's to say that it would have happened at all?

Actually, to be fair, Hitler did have future plans to invade the US. He wrote extensively about the US in the second Mein Kampf book, and authorised development of the long-range Amerika Bomber. It was also one of the reasons for the development of the Nazi Atomic Program at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute.

EDIT: I just realised you were being sarcastic. Chalk this up to me being too eager.

Ah yeah... the USSR were commies, so they don't matter... that'd be it.

And Hitler wasn't going over to the US, even after they'd supported the USSR and Britain, after Dunkirk, was he?

What's to say that it would have happened at all?
If Hitler hadn't been opposed by any army, I'm sure he would have taken the world. But, of course, he was opposed.

In response to the USSR thing (that is, that Hitler was too busy fighting the Russians to invade the US), well, think about it? No army = very little resistance to be met for taking over valuable areas (the East Coast, populous, industrialized, able to bring a valuable contribution to the German war effort). But since the Americans actually had an army, Hitler could not do that. Simple.

For that matter, without the military, who would have made the concentration camps in the first place?Military is for invading, he could have used a police force to create the camps.

I'm not saying that military is a good thing... I'm saying that it's necessary... because there's always gonna be some crazy fuck trying to take over the world

Yes, because Hitler believed that the "American Melting Pot" idea was just swell... please, unopposed Hitler would have taken the entire world.
Unopposed?

"Stalin, it'd be great if you could lay down the Red Army's weapons, and set the NKVD on any partisans, what do you say to that?"

"Da."

"Churchill, are you up for stopping this useless excuse for a war and setting the police onto the Home Guard and any other partisan forces?"

"Yeah, OK then."

"Roosevelt, we know that your country once had some Nazi sympathies - how's about you embrace our rule, tell your citizens to lay down their weapons, and get the police to put down any resistance, eh?"

"Sounds like a plan, mein Führer."

"You there, minor nations who oppose me, and larger nations who do as well, but due to your location, can currently do very little to help the Allies in reality, just stop this silly fighting and join my Reich, please. It'll be great, what do you say?"

"Si/Ja/Chinese for yes."

Does that really sound very likely to you?

Military is for invading, he could have used a police force to create the camps.

I'm not saying that military is a good thing... I'm saying that it's necessary... because there's always gonna be some crazy fuck trying to take over the world

As it stands, militaries are equally likely to be good as they are to be bad. For example: The SS made the concentration camps, and they were military. Meanwhile, the Allied forces liberated the prisoners of said camps, and they were military.

They, as an abstract concept, do not automatically deserve respect, but I think that has already been established.

in Austria, unlike the USA, we dislike war, so anything war-related will find it hard to get popularity

also in Austria, you have to do 8 months of military service or one year of social duty and I did military service. That didn't help value it either.

If Hitler hadn't been opposed by any army, I'm sure he would have taken the world. But, of course, he was opposed.

In response to the USSR thing (that is, that Hitler was too busy fighting the Russians to invade the US), well, think about it? No army = very little resistance to be met for taking over valuable areas (the East Coast, populous, industrialized, able to bring a valuable contribution to the German war effort). But since the Americans actually had an army, Hitler could not do that. Simple.
On the other hand, your logic is more flawed than a Trabant's fuel injection system.

The Red Army was the largest and probably, by the end of the war, the best one in the world. Since it did exist at the time, it's a bit of a foolish point to make.

Well, most of last year, Green Day videos were overplay--all of which has a "war is bad, cuz like people die and break their nails" theme.
War is bad =/= soldiers are bad

Any loss of respect for the military can be blamed on the current war. Also, look at the reports that we get back. US soldiers are letting their country down. Maybe not the majority, but many are and those are the newsworthy ones.

They, as an abstract concept, do not automatically deserve respect, but I think that has already been established.
I think the OP's main point was that they do not automatically deserve disrespect. Which the guy I initially replied to seemed to think.

in Austria, unlike the USA, we dislike war, so anything war-related will find it hard to get popularity

also in Austria, you have to do 8 months of military service or one year of social duty and I did military service. That didn't help value it either.
I'd prefer that kind of attitude in the UK as well. Let the populace defend itself, but don't encourage war. That'd be better than making the only people who are able to fight career soldiers, and tagging along to whatever Bush thinks is sensible because Tony is Bush's little gimp.

If it hadn't been for the military, Einstein would have died in a concentration camp. :rolleyes:

You got that the wrong way round : If it wasn't for the military, there wouldn't have been concentration camps.

On the other hand, your logic is more flawed than a Trabant's fuel injection system.

The Red Army was the largest and probably, by the end of the war, the best one in the world. Since it did exist at the time, it's a bit of a foolish point to make.
But since America would have no army, who would stop Hitler from taking over the entire country with only a few hundred thousand soldiers? Huh? And with America under his control, Einstein would die. Simple as that. Plus Hitler would probably win WW2, of course.

The Red Army still existed, of course, as did the other allied armies.

If Hitler didn't take the USA easily and use the loot to further his fight against the rest of the Allies, the Russians would have, at least after the war anyway. Not much of a better situation.

If Hitler hadn't been opposed by any army, I'm sure he would have taken the world. But, of course, he was opposed.

In response to the USSR thing (that is, that Hitler was too busy fighting the Russians to invade the US), well, think about it? No army = very little resistance to be met for taking over valuable areas (the East Coast, populous, industrialized, able to bring a valuable contribution to the German war effort). But since the Americans actually had an army, Hitler could not do that. Simple.

Now, imagine Hitler without an army ...

But since America would have no army, who would stop Hitler from taking over the entire country with only a few hundred thousand soldiers? Huh? And with America under his control, Einstein would die. Simple as that. Plus Hitler would probably win WW2, of course.

Red Army

British Army

Free French & Dominion Armies

The US army was not the only military in existence. And I'm sure the Soviets would have loved to invade the US...to liberate it, of course.

You got that the wrong way round : If it wasn't for the military, there wouldn't have been concentration camps.
But once you have a military wishing to kill you, you need a military of your own to protect your country and your people. Again, I'm not for giving praise automatically to everybody who has ever been in the military. But disrespecting them for that is just as bad.

But once you have a military wishing to kill you, you need a military of your own to protect your country and your people. Again, I'm not for giving praise automatically to everybody who has ever been in the military. But disrespecting them for that is just as bad.

Nobody claims that military isn't unfortunately necessary in this world.

Personally, however, I'd rather be killed than have someone else be killed by any army in my name...
And I can't find any respect for people who voluntarily kill, no matter for what reasons. That doesn't mean I don't respect them as human beings, but I don't respect their choice of lifestyle.

Now, imagine Hitler without an army ...
I don't need to imagine it. It would mean all of Europe under the Soviets. So it would look kind of like my own country did until a few years ago.

http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coada1el.jpg

Not much of an improvement over a Nazi society, huh? By the way, the yellow lettered word means bread. :rolleyes:

If Hitler didn't take the USA easily and use the loot to further his fight against the rest of the Allies, the Russians would have, at least after the war anyway. Not much of a better situation.
Indeed. Because as everyone knows, Russia is completely lacking in raw materials, especially those such as oil, gas, wood, tungsten and iron which are needed to fight a war, as well as lacking completely a determined population which is spoiling for a fight against fascists.

In a world without militaries the world would be run by militants... what I'm hearing here all exists in a world without violence, not one without militaries. Militaries are only the forces of a country, without these, the world would be fall into anarchy (not the good kind).

Nobody claims that military isn't unfortunately necessary in this world.
Read the post number 100 in this thread, the one made by Holycrapsylvania. That's where everything started from.

Indeed. Because as everyone knows, Russia is completely lacking in raw materials, especially those such as oil, gas, wood, tungsten and iron which are needed to fight a war, as well as lacking completely a determined population which is spoiling for a fight against fascists.
If they had everything they needed, why on Earth did they occupy Eastern Europe? It must have been an accident, then.

to liberate them from the capitalist pigs who seeked only to opress them of course:p

Read the post number 100 in this thread, the one made by Holycrapsylvania. That's where everything started from.

I read that. Einstein was opposed to all military. Not just the US army, not just the Wehrmacht, not just the Red Army, all of them.

If they had everything they needed, why on Earth did they occupy Eastern Europe? It must have been an accident, then.
Because Stalin was very expansionalist, and it was, up to a point, agreed that the Soviets should have a "buffer zone" at Yalta. Shame about Truman being a complete tit at Potsdam, really.

I read that. Einstein was opposed to all military. Not just the US army, not just the Wehrmacht, not just the Red Army, all of them.
Yes, but it was the "automatic disprespect" thing that set me off. I don't post too much around here, but when I do, it's often because I'm pissed by something or somebody. :D

Because Stalin was very expansionalist, and it was, up to a point, agreed that the Soviets should have a "buffer zone" at Yalta. Shame about Truman being a complete tit at Potsdam, really.

I also blame FDR for being far too eager to please Stalin and screwing over Churchill as his biggest and closest ally. FDR was just too naive with Stalin, and there were consequences for that.

Yes, but it was the "automatic disprespect" thing that set me off. I don't post too much around here, but when I do, it's often because I'm pissed by something or somebody. :D

I don't know about the other guy, but someone telling me that he/she is in the military will make me inch away a bit as an instinctive reaction. Not because I don't see the necessity, but because I can't help distrusting people who signed a contract that in essence means they are prepared to kill someone... Sure, there's a lot more to it, but be honest. Being a soldier means having to be ready to use force and to kill if ordered.

Not a fan myself as well ... and while I am against the war I dislike greendays excuse for an album they used to be alright, but there are plenty of things I want to hear in an album blatent politics does not make for a good long lasting album. Waayyy to blunt no class
Amen.

Indeed. Because as everyone knows, Russia is completely lacking in raw materials, especially those such as oil, gas, wood, tungsten and iron which are needed to fight a war, as well as lacking completely a determined population which is spoiling for a fight against fascists.

Because Russia would definitely have looked at an completely undefended and extremely wealthy country and decided just to leave it alone.

I don't know about the other guy, but someone telling me that he/she is in the military will make me inch away a bit as an instinctive reaction. Not because I don't see the necessity, but because I can't help distrusting people who signed a contract that in essence means they are prepared to kill someone... Sure, there's a lot more to it, but be honest. Being a soldier means having to be ready to use force and to kill if ordered.

And thats the crux of the matter. As a member of the military your basic function is to kill other human beings. That is something that I find I can no longer respect.

Because Stalin was very expansionalist, and it was, up to a point, agreed that the Soviets should have a "buffer zone" at Yalta. Shame about Truman being a complete tit at Potsdam, really.
Buffer zone my ass. ;) If it hadn't been for the Western military and the atom bomb, that buffer zone would have extended all the way to the Pacific and then back to Siberia.

I know I'm repeating myself, but still. I'm not saying we should all perform analingus on everybody who's ever been for one second in the military. My initial and only point was that an army is necessary and the people in it should not receive disrespect automatically, just for being soldiers. off course in an ideal world armies should not exist. But in an ideal world policemen should not exist either. Or firemen. Or lifeguards. Unfortunatelly, we still live in the real world, where all the above jobs are necessary and we should have the basic decency of aknoledging that, instead of insulting the people doing those jobs.

And thats the crux of the matter. As a member of the military your basic function is to kill other human beings. That is something that I find I can no longer respect.
Even if they kill the guy trying to kill you? Or would you let somebody else kill you because you'd no longer be able to respect yourself if you kill him in self defence? Would you also despise a policeman shooting and killing a criminal trying to mug you?

Killinh isn't nice, isn't ethical, but sometimes it's necessary and even good (okay, the lesser evil).

you should respect the people in the military because without them we may not have the freedom to have this discussion.. w/o the military it is possible that we could all be in labor camps working for the japanese.. or hitler may still be in power.. i'm not just saying the american military i'm just saying international military
No member of the US military today ever fought in WWII.

it's unneccecary for an induvidual yes.. but as soon as i stepped off that bus i wasn't an iduvidual... see without the military... then you wouldn't be able to sit here and say that stuff.. no worries though.. i get it
The point is, you chose to go through hardship.

Today's military fighting in Iraq is doing jack shit for freedom of speech. See my above point.

Even if they kill the guy trying to kill you? Or would you let somebody else kill you because you'd no longer be able to respect yourself if you kill him in self defence? Would you also despise a policeman shooting and killing a criminal trying to mug you?

Killinh isn't nice, isn't ethical, but sometimes it's necessary and even good (okay, the lesser evil).

Well, I said it before, I'll say it again. I don't want anyone killed in my name, no matter for what reason. And I generally would rather be killed than to kill.

Well, I said it before, I'll say it again. I don't want anyone killed in my name, no matter for what reason. And I generally would rather be killed than to kill.

Uhm, self-fulfilling prophecy.

Even if they kill the guy trying to kill you? Or would you let somebody else kill you because you'd no longer be able to respect yourself if you kill him in self defence? Would you also despise a policeman shooting and killing a criminal trying to mug you?

Killinh isn't nice, isn't ethical, but sometimes it's necessary and even good (okay, the lesser evil).

This is an often used argument in this type of debate but it is however a complete misnomer. If someone was trying to kill me of course I would defend myself but I wouldn't kill them. Killing is never good or a lesser evil, it can NEVER be justified.

Nobody claims that military isn't unfortunately necessary in this world.

Personally, however, I'd rather be killed than have someone else be killed by any army in my name...
You think that your life is worth less than a professional killer invading your home and killing your people?

Uhm, self-fulfilling prophecy.

*lol
Possibly. Hopefully ;)

You think that your life is worth less than a professional killer invading your home and killing your people?

No, both are worth the exact same.

Well, I said it before, I'll say it again. I don't want anyone killed in my name, no matter for what reason. And I generally would rather be killed than to kill.
I'd bet everything I have and then even more that you don't have any children yet.

No, both are worth the exact same.

Round of applause. Life is Life.

I'd bet everything I have and then even more that you don't have any children yet.

You can take out a loan and bet that on the fact that I never want to have kids, either.

No, both are worth the exact same.

Hmmm. This is where I have a beef.

Values are not objective, they are subjective.
Which means to me that the statement 'they're both worth the same' must be either relative, or nonsense.

In theory, you might say that the life of a random killer is worth the same as the life of your 4 year old daughter.

In reality, if you did not subjectively value the life of your own 4 year old daughter higher than that of a random killer, I would consider you to be a very bad human, and an even worse parent.

This is an often used argument in this type of debate but it is however a complete misnomer. If someone was trying to kill me of course I would defend myself but I wouldn't kill them. Killing is never good or a lesser evil, it can NEVER be justified.
Yeah, right. :rolleyes: I'm sure you'd be able to hit him on the head with a big stick with just enough force to knock him unconscious, but not spill his brains over the kitchen table. Tell me another story, I'm not asleep yet, mommy!

I'd bet everything I have and then even more that you don't have any children yet.

Your going off post here. As an emotional rsponse to protect ourselves or our family from harm then all of us are capable of extreme acts of violence. This is an explainable emotional and natural response.

What I'm saying is that I take exception to people who are willing to kill for an ideology or for pay, ie members of the military. I don't despise or hate them, but I certainly don't respect them.

Your going off post here. As an emotional rsponse to protect ourselves or our family from harm then all of us are capable of extreme acts of violence. This is an explainable emotional and natural response.

What I'm saying is that I take exception to people who are willing to kill for an ideology or for pay, ie members of the military. I don't despise or hate them, but I certainly don't respect them.


I expect a human to respond through his emotions.
And act upon those.

Well, I said it before, I'll say it again. I don't want anyone killed in my name, no matter for what reason. And I generally would rather be killed than to kill.
The logical extension of this is that you are the most worthless person in the world. Why the hell would you think that?

No, both are worth the exact same.
So how does it make sense to declare that it is better that you die than he dies?

I expect a human to respond through his emotions.
And act upon those.

Thats what I just said............?

Hmmm. This is where I have a beef.

Values are no objective, they are subjective.
Which means to me that the statement 'they're both worth the same' must be either relative, or nonsense.

In theory, you might say that the life of a random killer is worth the same as the life of your 4 year old daughter.

In reality, if you did not subjectively value the life of your own 4 year old daughter higher than that of a random killer, I would consider you to be a very bad human, and an even worse parent.

What you talk about are emotions, not values.
Emotionally, the life of a friend is more important to me than the life of someone I don't know. But the question whose life is more valuable is a question that simply doesn't have an answer.
And no choice you can make in your life will make your life less valuable.

The logical extension of this is that you are the most worthless person in the world. Why the hell would you think that?
No, she's merely holding the belief that one life is equal to another, in all cases. "Worth" does not not come in to it.

The logical extension of this is that you are the most worthless person in the world. Why the hell would you think that?


So how does it make sense to declare that it is better that you die than he dies?

I never said it was better. I said if you ask me to choose, I'd rather die than kill.

Your going off post here. As an emotional rsponse to protect ourselves or our family from harm then all of us are capable of extreme acts of violence. This is an explainable emotional and natural response.

What I'm saying is that I take exception to people who are willing to kill for an ideology or for pay, ie members of the military. I don't despise or hate them, but I certainly don't respect them.
What if your children are back home and you're fighting to protect them or at least to ensure they have a better life. That's what most modern armies are for, anyway.

The Americans are excluded from the above statement, not because I feel against or in favour of the war in Iraq (I'm not even saying which is my oppinion :p), but because I don't want to start an entire new debate on a a new topic.

As for not despising them, okay. Like I've said it a few times already, that's the only thing I wanted to say on this thread.

I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve... even on message boards on sites like deviantart which is targeted to all age groups as is the syrnia role playing game even mentioning serving in the military ends a discussion.. even on the proper forums.. it's not even like i am not on the right message board. What is the cause of the new found bitterness to the military.. there was once respect and valor in joining the service... now you publicly announce that you are a service man or woman and people scoff at you and call you a murderer.. at least for me it is.. and i understand tha tthe war makes it less popular w/ younger people.. but it shouldn't this much.. i don't know.. my random thought of the day
Well my friend, have you stopped to think the reason for their views is because of their maturity? Children of that age group, are relatively easy to influence. Wether that be from the tv, newspapers, and whatnot.

As with regard to the statement of misleading recruiters, that is fundamentally flawed. It is not in the recruiter's best intrest to lie to an individual, for they may be held accountable if that individual disputes his contract.

I am confused why someone would call a recruiter untrustsworthy, for it is not the duty of a recruiter to inform you about the hardships or difficulties, this is left to the individual to inquire about. Recruiters are bound to awnser direct questions, thats why its merely having done research in advance to acquire the benefits and extra bonuses that are available.

In that aspect, military can be trusted to awnser direct questions. Seriously, you think you are gonna go sign up for a 4 year vacation in Hawaii? No, its the M-I-L-I-T-A-R-Y... you know.. Normandy, Guadalcanal, Midway, etc.... yeah.... its those battles that lend respect to our military. (Btw. Its not just WW2 battles that have been fought in the name of American intrests, we are a superpower for a reason.)

I think everyone can agree upon that war is extremely bad, for everyone involved. However I strongly respect people who do their military service. I did mine willingly. I don't want my country in a war but should we be attacked I sure as hell would want to be defended by my nations soldiers. So...the only right thing for me to do was to do my time in the military. If I want to be defended I should be ready to defend others as well, anything else is just being hypocritical (sp?). This only goes for defensive wars though, and not attacking others for oil or other whacky reasons.

What you talk about are emotions, not values.
Emotionally, the life of a friend is more important to me than the life of someone I don't know. But the question whose life is more valuable is a question that simply doesn't have an answer.
And no choice you can make in your life will make your life less valuable.

What are the relative values, to you as a person?

What are the relative values, to you as a person?

If you asked me to choose between the life of a friend and the life of a stranger?

What a tired, old argument. Without the military, Hitler et all wouldn’t have been able to do a thing apart from stride about in a Beerhaus. ‘The Military’ isn’t some international freedom force, dedicated to peace and humanity. They are hundreds of seperate bodies of (mostly) men, dedicated to killing, maiming, bombing, and, in some instances, torturing for political ends.


How, when and where? I live in Glasgow. When has anyone in military fatigues put their life on the line for me or my family?




I see you never studied History at you High School in Glasgow. Hitler perverted the Wehrmacht which up till then had pledged its allegiance to the State of Germany, and not to the leader of Germany. He also created a seperate Paramilitary organisation within the Nazi Party called the Schutz Staffel, originally as a bodyguard. Remember that he had Allied himself with the Sturm Arbeitlung (SA), a paramilitary force, for political ends. The Schutz Staffel then went on to form its own armed wing, more commonly known as the Waffen SS. (The Armed Schutz Staffel).

Your view of the military seems to be warped by your political viewpoint.

Every person who ever took the Shilling has indirectly put themselves on the line for you and your family. The fact of the existance of any other nations military, particularly of those states that view the conquest of other nations as a legitimate poitcal aim, requires the maintenance of a military. (Yes we Brits were the main invaders in thepast but that is all history now ;) .)

The Military is not just about killing maiming and torturing as you seem to perceive. MAy I recommend that you look at the Falklands Conflict as an example of the Military being used to ensure the self determination of the people.

If you asked me to choose between the life of a friend and the life of a stranger?

Yep. That scenario.

Fargozia']I see you never studied History at you High School in Glasgow. Hitler perverted the Wehrmacht which up till then had pledged its allegiance to the State of Germany, and not to the leader of Germany. He also created a seperate Paramilitary organisation within the Nazi Party called the Schutz Staffel, originally as a bodyguard. Remember that he had Allied himself with the Sturm Arbeitlung (SA), a paramilitary force, for political ends. The Schutz Staffel then went on to form its own armed wing, more commonly known as the Waffen SS. (The Armed Schutz Staffel).

Your view of the military seems to be warped by your political viewpoint.

Every person who ever took the Shilling has indirectly put themselves on the line for you and your family. The fact of the existance of any other nations military, particularly of those states that view the conquest of other nations as a legitimate poitcal aim, requires the maintenance of a military. (Yes we Brits were the main invaders in thepast but that is all history now ;) .)

The Military is not just about killing maiming and torturing as you seem to perceive. MAy I recommend that you look at the Falklands Conflict as an example of the Military being used to ensure the self determination of the people.


So Hitler took the army and changed some aspects. It still remained an army, and it was the most important instrument for his power.

And the fact that the military can be used for other things than mere killing doesn't change the fact that killing is what it was set up for.

Yep. That scenario.

I couldn't make that choice.

I couldn't make that choice.

In that case, I wouldn't consider you a reliable friend.

In that case, I wouldn't consider you a reliable friend.

That's at your discretion. If you require a friend to be ready to kill for you, I guess I wouldn't want to be counted as your friend.

That's at your discretion. If you require a friend to be ready to kill for you, I guess I wouldn't want to be counted as your friend.

And I would not ever take you lionhunting.

*has hissyfit*

That's at your discretion. If you require a friend to be ready to kill for you, I guess I wouldn't want to be counted as your friend.

I'd consider them more of a friend if they were willing to die for me.

You got that the wrong way round : If it wasn't for the military, there wouldn't have been concentration camps.

I would like to make that a bit more accurate- "Without the Geheime Staats Polizei (Gestapo), the Waffen SS and the Nazi Party, there would not have been WW2 concentration camps." The Wehrmacht, Kreigsmarine and the Luftwaffe were not directly involved in the establishment, maintenance or running of these camps.

I think that it is true that there is not much respect for the military in some places. I'm not sure what it would be like in the United States, because I'm sure that because of some things that have happened with the US, people may not respect the decisions of the United States Government, therefore taking a stance on "hating the military" (I'n not giving any opinions on the actions of the US Government, I'm just stating a fact). However, here in Canada where I live, I know that many people have a respect for our military. Now not everyone is running around with "Support our troops" on their hats or bumpers, but I can't say that there is anybody I've met who "hates the military". And there are many of people, and young people in general (including myself) who have a great amount of respect for our men in uniform. While not everyone needs to be like this (I believe they should, but that's my personal opinion) they certainly shouldn't hate the men and women in uniform, no more than they should hate a firefighter, an ambulance driver or an airline pilot.

Fargozia']I would like to make that a bit more accurate- "Without the Geheime Staats Polizei (Gestapo), the Waffen SS and the Nazi Party, there would not have been WW2 concentration camps." The Wehrmacht, Kreigsmarine and the Luftwaffe were not directly involved in the establishment, maintenance or running of these camps.

No, but they supplied a good deal of power to back the Nazi regime, without which there would have been no concentration camps.

And I would not ever take you lionhunting.

*has hissyfit*

Why would I want to go lionhunting in the first place? :confused:

:p

No, but they supplied a good deal of power to back the Nazi regime, without which there would have been no concentration camps.

Well, without EBIL Jews, there would have been no boncentration bamps either, wot?

Well, without EBIL Jews, there would have been no boncentration bamps either, wot?

You go hunt that lion... :p

Well, I said it before, I'll say it again. I don't want anyone killed in my name, no matter for what reason. And I generally would rather be killed than to kill.

Welcome to the mindset of the holocaust victim. There are times when it is a lesser evil to kill than let yourself or others be killed in the name of an abhorrent and aberrant ideological process. There were some German Jews who fought Hitler in the British Army. Below is a link to the Grave registration of Egon Vogel, a German Citizen who fought with the British.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.aspx?surname=Vogel&initials=E&war=2&yearfrom=1945&yearto=1945&force=Army&nationality=6&send.x=41&send.y=15

Fargozia']Welcome to the mindset of the holocaust victim. There are times when it is a lesser evil to kill than let yourself or others be killed in the name of an abhorrent and aberrant ideological process. There were some German Jews who fought Hitler in the British Army. Below is a link to the Grave registration of Egon Vogel, a German Citizen who fought with the British.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.aspx?surname=Vogel&initials=E&war=2&yearfrom=1945&yearto=1945&force=Army&nationality=6&send.x=41&send.y=15

Welcome to the mindset of someone who would rather die than live with the fact they took a life.

Welcome to the mindset of someone who would rather die than live with the fact they took a life.
I wonder why are they in the minority? :p

I wonder why are they in the minority? :p

Maybe thats why the world is such a sad place :(

You go hunt that lion... :p


I did. I ended up shooting my partner...

:P

Welcome to the mindset of someone who would rather die than live with the fact they took a life.

Then that person is the ideal victim for the next holocaust designed exterminate whichever subset of people that they happen to belong to. When a person, group of people or a nation ALLOWS itself to be victimised then the thugs win. The Warsaw Uprising was a prime example of this. The Germans wanted to raze Warsaw, the locals decided that this was not going to happen and it would have been successful if Stalin had not stopped his advance on Warsaw for "Political Reasons". There are times when the jackboot on the neck must be thrown off.

Maybe thats why the world is such a sad place :(
In this case, they should defend themselves and the world would become less sad, right? What a paradox, you have to go against your principles if you want your principles to become more important!

What would you do if you saw someone in the process of being murdered on the street? You have a weapon which will most likely kill whoever it hits... let's say a .50 cal sniper.

Fargozia']Then that person is the ideal victim for the next holocaust designed exterminate whichever subset of people that they happen to belong to. When a person, group of people or a nation ALLOWS itself to be victimised then the thugs win. The Warsaw Uprising was a prime example of this. The Germans wanted to raze Warsaw, the locals decided that this was not going to happen and it would have been successful if Stalin had not stopped his advance on Warsaw for "Political Reasons". There are times when the jackboot on the neck must be thrown off.

The thugs would win either way. If I decided to kill, I would be a thug just like them.

What would you do if you saw someone in the process of being murdered on the street? You have a weapon which will most likely kill whoever it hits... let's say a .50 cal sniper.

Use the handle to hit the attacker over the head, then call assistance.

Having established that war is bad (anybody disagree? didn't think so), let's think about this a minute.

First, I'd suggest that today's youth don't really disrespect the military, at least, not more than they disrespect anything and everything. Like most of the rest of everybody, they mostly - if they care at all - complain about the politicians. Even "the media" doesn't blame the soldiers for the Iraq war - although it does blame them when atrocities/war crimes seem to have been committed - it blames Bush, Cheny, Big Oil, whoever. Assuming it actually blames anyone, which sometimes it doesn't.

Second, why was the suggestion that humans are naturally aggressive/pack aggressive dsimissed out of hand? If you look at what we know of human history, it's a long series of wars, with brief intervals of peace. You can blame "religion" or whatever all you want, but the fact remains that religion doesn't come from nowhere. And people have twisted and abused almost all religions to jsutify attacking somebody or something. "Religion" is sort of impersonal, it can't start a war. People do.

Heck, we all (well, most of us) enjoy watching violent sports - look at the polls sitting there staring at you. Humanity is violent, there's no real way around it. Maybe there's a way out, but its not getting yourself killed by somebody who doesn't think violence is that bad.

Humanity is also insanely socially driven. People *will* come to hear somebody talk. If a couple people start yelling, soon you've got a mob. That's how Hitler got power - he talked! And if you want more power, and convince somebody else they want/need more power too, you have an army (wow!). So the people you want to invade need an army too. So you need to give your guys an advantage - a knife! Then they want an advantage - a bow! And so forth. I guess the alternative is to just let dictators take over? That would mean no war, I guess... but then, most people don't seem to like that idea. Maybe the military is necessary, hmm.

On the other hand, even though I intend to join the Marine Corps, I'm not sure the military, even in time of war defending a just cause, should get more credit than other professions which endanger the practitioner's life... but heck, if people want to respect it more, or less, that's their business.

The thugs would win either way. If I decided to kill, I would be a thug just like them.

There is such a thing as a lesser evil. To kill to prevent the killing of an innocent is not a crime. IIRC "He who saves but a single life saves the whole world."

Fargozia']There is such a thing as a lesser evil. To kill to prevent the killing of an innocent is not a crime. IIRC "He who saves but a single life saves the whole world."

Nobody said it was a crime. But it's not right, either. And I simply will not do it.

Concepts like service honor and discipline are anathama to many people these days. The idea that there is something more important than oneself competely alien. There is also the simpleminded notion and indelably links the military with the current occupant of the White House for good or ill.


I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve... even on message boards on sites like deviantart which is targeted to all age groups as is the syrnia role playing game even mentioning serving in the military ends a discussion.. even on the proper forums.. it's not even like i am not on the right message board. What is the cause of the new found bitterness to the military.. there was once respect and valor in joining the service... now you publicly announce that you are a service man or woman and people scoff at you and call you a murderer.. at least for me it is.. and i understand tha tthe war makes it less popular w/ younger people.. but it shouldn't this much.. i don't know.. my random thought of the day

Use the handle to hit the attacker over the head, then call assistance.

What if there was a chasm separating you and the altercation?

What if there was a chasm separating you and the altercation?

Throw the gun at the attacker.

Throw the gun at the attacker.

And if you miss? Why not just shoot him in the leg? No permanent damage given the current degree of medical prowess, but he's down, and you can run away and call the police/ambulance/whatever.

Would you kill to save youe children? If you answer no then you are unfit to be a parent.



The thugs would win either way. If I decided to kill, I would be a thug just like them.

And if you miss? Why not just shoot him in the leg? No permanent damage given the current degree of medical prowess, but he's down, and you can run away and call the police/ambulance/whatever.

The original scenario was that the weapon would be deadly if used.

Would you kill to save youe children? If you answer no then you are unfit to be a parent.

I think I already pointed out that I have no interest at all in procreating...

Would you kill to save youe children? If you answer no then you are unfit to be a parent.

This discussion's been done to death. That is killing to protect your own or your families life.

What I'm saying is that I will not show respect to someone who is willing to become a killer to defend a political ideology or standpoint.

This discussion's been done to death. That is killing to protect your own or your families life.

What I'm saying is that I will not show respect to someone who is willing to become a killer to defend a political ideology or standpoint.

But what about a person who kills to protect you from a political standpoint that persecutes you?

Fargozia']But what about a person who kills to protect you from a political standpoint that persecutes you?

Interesting point. But then again, I still find it impossible to repect someone for killing. I would certainly be grateful, but respectful? No. Thats my own personal ethics. Killing is wrong.

You miss the point killing is incidental the JOB is to keep you safe. If they must kill to do then so be it.

“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” George Orwell.


Interesting point. But then again, I still find it impossible to repect someone for killing. I would certainly be grateful, but respectful? No. Thats my own personal ethics. Killing is wrong.

If memory serves, it was police and firefighters (and the paramedics) who were on the scene that horrible day. The were guardsmen (and women) amoung them, but they were not called out for it.

From one that knows for a fact the there were military personnel at the seen of the WTC on 9/11. I was stationed on Long Island at the time. as soon as the first plan hit, we mobilized rescue and recovery forces and sent them on the way and they were there for weeks, as it became clear that it was an attack we sent security forces and boats and ships there to patrol and provide a security zone for NY harbor as well as all the major harbors in the US. The Coast Guard set up a command post in NY harbor and directed all aspects of security, transportation for equipment/supplies and movement of shipping and provided personnel for the rescue and recovery effort.

I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve... even on message boards on sites like deviantart which is targeted to all age groups as is the syrnia role playing game even mentioning serving in the military ends a discussion.. even on the proper forums.. it's not even like i am not on the right message board. What is the cause of the new found bitterness to the military.. there was once respect and valor in joining the service... now you publicly announce that you are a service man or woman and people scoff at you and call you a murderer.. at least for me it is.. and i understand tha tthe war makes it less popular w/ younger people.. but it shouldn't this much.. i don't know.. my random thought of the day

Um im young, and i totally support our military and the war to.
I think it mite the massive amount of bombardment of anti-military propaganda that fills the screens, with only bad things about the military while leaving out all the good things. Lol what a great media we have, no1 ever does research for anything these days, u could go on national TV, and say the world just ended, and the only ppl that r alive, r the ones that here this broadcast, and 90% of the ppl will think its true.

Interesting point. But then again, I still find it impossible to repect someone for killing. I would certainly be grateful, but respectful? No. Thats my own personal ethics. Killing is wrong.

So u don't respect, policemen, minutemen, the very ppl that made the majority of countries today. How dare u not respect the very ppl that protect u.

So u don't respect, policemen, firemen, minutemen, the very ppl that made the majority of countries today. How dare u not respect the very ppl that protect u.
When did he ever say anything about police or firemen?

When did he ever say anything about police or firemen?

Um he said killing, policmen kill, firemen don't that actually need to b taken out. For somereason i have a tendancy to put those 2 together.

Um he said killing, policmen kill, firemen don't that actually need to b taken out. For somereason i have a tendancy to put those 2 together.
Sometimes they have to … the ones that manage to do their job without having to kill someone is deserving of WAY more respect IMO (not to say that sometimes killing is not nessisary and I dont begudge them that I just dont feel they are quite as deserving)

Sometimes they have to … the ones that manage to do their job without having to kill someone is deserving of WAY more respect IMO (not to say that sometimes killing is not nessisary and I dont begudge them that I just dont feel they are quite as deserving)

I feel they deserve more respect, for the fact that they r ready and willing to kill, for the protection of others.

Guess thats just a simple diffrence tho. However the person who said they have no respect for any1 who kills deserves to b shot.

It's the opposite for me, I know very little people who don't have respect for the military and the people who serve in it. Sounds like your sister is ignorant and just thinks the entire military is all a bunch of honorless baby killers.

It's the opposite for me, I know very little people who don't have respect for the military and the people who serve in it. Sounds like your sister is ignorant and just thinks the entire military is all a bunch of honorless baby killers.
Sense when are a large majority of 13 year olds NOT ignorant?

Fuck I know I had no idea what was REALLY going on in the world at that age, there were a lot more pressing matters to draw my attention.

Sense when are a large majority of 13 year olds NOT ignorant?

Fuck I know I had no idea what was REALLY going on in the world at that age, there were a lot more pressing matters to draw my attention.

Lol thats a good point, but there is a diffrence between ignorance, which would just b knowing nothing abou the military. And being disrespectful to the very ppl that protect u.

wait... so i am just out of basic trianing.. jsut stationed in arizonia.. in the marine corps.. and you don't respect the fact that i went through 13 weeks of HELL because i wanted to protect you .. the citizens of this great nation


You go girl. Your journey has just begun and you will do and see things that most can’t even imagine seeing or doing, go places that most can only hope to go. Your can get all the education and collage you want at almost no cost. You will learn self discipline and self respect (and employers like to hire x-military because of that alone). You will learn a skill.

Do worry about whether civilians give you respect, of fellow service men and women will, Vets will as will countless others, you will find in time that what these others think will not matter, you will be proud of who you are and what you do for your country.

Don’t worry about things such as being away from how and family for holidays and for long time, remember that those that love you will be thinking about you, and know that care, even if the feels like most others don’t care, your country is proud of you and your service and sacrifice. Most people will look down on you because you are in the military, but will prize and thank you when they need you. Remember all the birthdays and all the times I was not there for you, the holidays I was gone, and the times when I came home from deployment, I regret that but I am proud of my service as you will be. You will make sacrifices miss holidays at home with your family and friends. Remember we are here for you and think of you, and are proud of you.

SEMPER PARATUS.
I use to read this at times when I was away and it brings things back into perspective…

The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light, I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.
My wife was asleep, her head on my chest, my daughter beside me, angelic in rest.
Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white, transforming the yard to a winter delight.
The sparkling lights in the tree, I believe, Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.
My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep, Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep in perfect contentment, or so it would seem.
So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.

The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near, But I opened my eye when it tickled my ear.
Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.
My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear, and I crept to the door just to see who was near.
Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night, A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.
A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old
Perhaps a Marine, Airman or Sailor huddled here in the cold.

Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled, Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.
"What are you doing?" I asked without fear "Come in for a moment, it's freezing out here!
Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve, You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"
For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift, away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts,
to the window that danced with a warm fire's light, then he sighed and he said "Its really all right,
I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night"

It’s my duty to stand at the front of the line, that separates you from the darkest of times.
No one had to ask or beg or implore me, I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.
My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December,” then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers.
" My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam. And now it is my turn and so, here I am.
I've not seen my own son in more than a while, But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.
Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag, The red white and blue... an American flag.

"I can live through the cold and the being alone, Away from my family, my house and my home,
I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet, I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat,
I can carry the weight of killing another or lay down my life with my sisters and brothers
who stand at the front against any and all, to insure for all time that this flag will not fall."
"So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."
"But isn't there something I can do, at the least, "Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast? It seems all too little for all that you've done,
For being away from your wife and your son."

Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret, "Just tell us you love us, and never forget
To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone. To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
For when we come home, either standing or dead, to know you remember we fought and we bled is payment enough, and with that we will trust.
That we mattered to you as you mattered to us.


;)

Lol thats a good point, but there is a diffrence between ignorance, which would just b knowing nothing abou the military. And being disrespectful to the very ppl that protect u.
Bah kids are disrespectful of everyone, (as I stated in my first post in this thread)

Um he said killing, policmen kill, firemen don't that actually need to b taken out. For somereason i have a tendancy to put those 2 together.

In your neck of the woods, they do. Here, they don't carry firearms...

I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve... even on message boards on sites like deviantart which is targeted to all age groups as is the syrnia role playing game even mentioning serving in the military ends a discussion.. even on the proper forums.. it's not even like i am not on the right message board. What is the cause of the new found bitterness to the military.. there was once respect and valor in joining the service... now you publicly announce that you are a service man or woman and people scoff at you and call you a murderer.. at least for me it is.. and i understand tha tthe war makes it less popular w/ younger people.. but it shouldn't this much.. i don't know.. my random thought of the day

There are plenty of sites that won't be a problem. And some that will be a definite problem. The Internet is a big place - maybe you should get around more.

Or, stop posting in forums so much, and enjoy your youth.

Bah kids are disrespectful of everyone, (as I stated in my first post in this thread)

And it's a good thing they are disrespectful. They are questioning the structures they are being presented with, something which adults do nowhere near enough any more.

In your neck of the woods, they do. Here, they don't carry firearms...

In that case they can easily b overrun by armed attackers thus not protecting the citizens.

In that case they can easily b overrun by armed attackers thus not protecting the citizens.

For some reason, that doesn't seem to happen. Crime rates here are in fact falling

For some reason, that doesn't seem to happen. Crime rates here are in fact falling
Interestingly, crime rates in the US have been falling for some time. 65 percent lower than during the previous President's administration.

I don't think it's the availability or lack of guns that causes crime. It's poor social conditions. Make living conditions better, make more opportunity for people, and the crime dries up.

For some reason, that doesn't seem to happen. Crime rates here are in fact falling

And that can b attributed to only a thousand diffrent varabibles that have nothign to do with weapons or killings.

And that can b attributed to only a thousand diffrent varabibles that have nothign to do with weapons or killings.

I never said the two were related. I just told you that obviously the fact that the police aren't carrying firearms in this country is not being regarded as an incentive to attack them, nor are they any less effective in their job than policemen that do carry firearms.

Interestingly, crime rates in the US have been falling for some time. 65 percent lower than during the previous President's administration.

I don't think it's the availability or lack of guns that causes crime. It's poor social conditions. Make living conditions better, make more opportunity for people, and the crime dries up.

I'm perfectly aware of that. Fighting criminals is the least effective way to fight crime. But I wanted to clarify that policemen in Ireland are not being any less efficient than policemen elsewhere simply because they don't carry guns.

I never said the two were related. I just told you that obviously the fact that the police aren't carrying firearms in this country is not being regarded as an incentive to attack them, nor are they any less effective in their job than policemen that do carry firearms.

Lets take all the fire arms in the police hands of the US and c what happens.

Lets take all the fire arms in the police hands of the US and c what happens.

If that's what you want...

I'm perfectly aware of that. Fighting criminals is the least effective way to fight crime. But I wanted to clarify that policemen in Ireland are not being any less efficient than policemen elsewhere simply because they don't carry guns.
I would agree with that. It depends on who the police have to deal with - if you're rarely dealing with criminals who use guns, and deal with a populace who obey the police as a matter of course, then it's easy to do it with no guns.

Here in the US, there is an increasing militarization of the police, which began with the SWAT teams of the 1970s. They have more armor, more exotic weapons, and more military-like armament than in the past.

I'm not sure that's a good thing.

If that's what you want...

Lol such a thing would never get approved however do to the fact that i stated above.

I would agree with that. It depends on who the police have to deal with - if you're rarely dealing with criminals who use guns, and deal with a populace who obey the police as a matter of course, then it's easy to do it with no guns.

Here in the US, there is an increasing militarization of the police, which began with the SWAT teams of the 1970s. They have more armor, more exotic weapons, and more military-like armament than in the past.

I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I doubt it... I think they're fighting fire with fire. It can perhaps hold the status quo, but it will never improve the overall situation.
I understand that the situation in the US, especially regarding guns in any form, is profoundly different from what it is in any European country. Therefore, the measures and programs that are working here will most likely not catch on in the USA. But what seems to be going on in your country at the moment is some sort of arms' race between the police and the population, and not even exclusively the criminal part of society.

... To be perfectly honest, I do feel a lot better in a country where the police don't need to use guns.

I've noticed more and more.. as talk to my sisters friends..(she is 13) tha tthey have no respect for the military and the people who serve...
Respect is earned, never due.

One can hope to earn the respect of individuals, but no-one is ever due respect from society.

Respect is earned, never due.

One can hope to earn the respect of individuals, but no-one is ever due respect from society.

Well said

In all honesty, should we be glorifying killing people for stupid things?

I feel they deserve more respect, for the fact that they r ready and willing to kill, for the protection of others.

Guess thats just a simple diffrence tho. However the person who said they have no respect for any1 who kills deserves to b shot.

Thats right I have no respect for people who are prepared to kill to defend ideologies or for personal gain. Thats my personal ethics, that killing is wrong. Saying I deserve to be shot for disagreeing with you seems just a tad harsh. I certainly don't hate the military or view them as babykillers or monsters. I know lots of people in both the British and French military and can even count some of them as friends. Respect them for being prepared to kill though? No

Thats right I have no respect for people who are prepared to kill to defend ideologies or for personal gain. Thats my personal ethics, that killing is wrong. Saying I deserve to be shot for disagreeing with you seems just a tad harsh. I certainly don't hate the military or view them as babykillers or monsters. I know lots of people in both the British and French military and can even count some of them as friends. Respect them for being prepared to kill though? No

Respect them for putting their lives in harm's way, yes. But that includes other people as well, such as firefighters.

I also have some respect for people who make it through certain types of training. It does say a lot for their personal character (not that it prevents them from being assholes, and not that other people do not have the same character).

Thats right I have no respect for people who are prepared to kill to defend ideologies or for personal gain. Thats my personal ethics, that killing is wrong. Saying I deserve to be shot for disagreeing with you seems just a tad harsh. I certainly don't hate the military or view them as babykillers or monsters. I know lots of people in both the British and French military and can even count some of them as friends. Respect them for being prepared to kill though? No

Sometimes it is necessary. War is part of an intracit mapping of human instincts. It's basically politics taken to the next level.

Sometimes it is necessary. War is part of an intracit mapping of human instincts. It's basically politics taken to the next level.

That doesn't make it right.

In all honesty, should we be glorifying killing people for stupid things?
Democracy is stupid?

Democracy is stupid?

The problem with that comment is that most wars arn't fought over democracy, thats just what we're told. Most wars are fought over personal or national gain, be it monetry, prestige or raw materials.

I think this quotes sums up my thoughts quite well.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-John Stewart Mill

The problem with that comment is that most wars arn't fought over democracy, thats just what we're told. Most wars are fought over personal or national gain, be it monetry, prestige or raw materials.

oh i am refering to the iraq war....

And no that is not a war for oil..
don't even try that
=P

oh i am refering to the iraq war....

And no that is not a war for oil..
don't even try that
=P

And it wasn't fought for democracy either, it was fought to get rid of fictitious WMDs. But this subject is for another thread, so lets both leave that topic alone.

Very little would change despite Hollywood most cops go through their whole career without drawing there gun let alone actually shooting somebody. That being said however it small percent of the time when a firearm is needed it is better to have one and not need it than need one and not have it.


Lets take all the fire arms in the police hands of the US and c what happens.

I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

VI
I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

those both come from the marine code of conduct .. just thought i would slip that in here too...
I love america.. i love the diversity, i love everything about it... And that is why i am choosing to fight for it

Bring back National Service.

And you'll have created a military as soon as you enlist people to use those guns, hence eliminating the whole there's no military to prop up a hitler (etc etc) part of my post. If people just refused to fight, there'd be no hitler etc even if they did invent a sword, gun, slingshot, oatmeal catapult...
Forgive my tardiness, but the discussion is, as far as I can tell, about stigma against servicepeople by todays youth. A real thing. The fact that a few posters, some charisma, and some bastard shouting "remeber the atrocity they committed which will excuse our bigger attrocity!" are all it takes to turn thinking people into fanatical killers is also real. Refusal to fight by every piss-poor, betrayed feeling veteran isn't.

yay, it's unsubstantiated assertion time. w00t!
I pleed guilty. May Satan and all his little wizards fart their dark flames of corruption most vigorously up my guilty nostrils. I'll kill myself and go to hell as soon as you substantiate the argument in the other direction, which is that violence and creativity are both non-universal traits. I'm not talking psychopaths and Da Vincis here, I'm talking the violence which calls out to us to hit somebody who hits us first, or the creativity which makes us turn a key the other way if the first way doesn't work. And since every animal I no of that actually has a brain has such qualities, and we're animals, I'm making an educated guess.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-John Stewart Mill
Bravo. My thoughts almost exactly.