NationStates Jolt Archive

Geno's Steaks, the best place in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak sandwich, recently got accused of being racist for putting up signs saying "Please speak English when ordering". What's so bad about that? They don't refuse to serve customers who can't speak English well, they just ask that customers who can speak English do so.

Nothing wrong with that, but a better way to put it might have been "We only understand English." I mean, same thing, but it's a little more like 'Go ahead, speak Gobbledegook for all we care. Just don't complain when we serve you up Thrice-Cooked Llama Entrails.

Its of course necessary to ask someone to speak the language that you can understand but how you ask is also important. Why is it important? To not start a fight with some overreactive loudmouth.
Its impossible to teach everyone every language in any country. So every country needs ONE official language than everyone has to know and other than that its voluntary. Why one language? its necessary, there are medical emergencies, fires, wars etc that needs fast communication. Culture and daily use of language to order things is a different thing so its not racist or fascist but practical necessity to have ONE official language.

Geno's Steaks, the best place in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak sandwich, recently got accused of being racist for putting up signs saying "Please speak English when ordering". What's so bad about that? They don't refuse to serve customers who can't speak English well, they just ask that customers who can speak English do so.
I noticed that too, especially since channel 6, i think, went ballistic about it.

ZOMG, 7h3y m4k3 3m 5p34k 3n6|15h! 54y wh47?!?!

i'm sorry for being 'discriminatory' (cant spell, damnit), but guess what: in America you speak English. At least try to learn the language. I can see certain orgs and govt services offering help in Spanish, but you have to try. YOU ARE AN IMMIGRANT JUST LIKE THE MILLIONS OF IMMIGRANTS THAT HAVE COME BEFORE YOU. they weren't accomodated and neither will you. America was built on immigrants and I have no problem with them coming. Just try and adapt to a different place. Although, only in America will people stage a protest to come here illegaly.

I really dont want to see this turn into late 19th century America: Exclusion Acts, Gentleman's Agreemant, and the like.

Geno's Steaks, the best place in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak sandwich, recently got accused of being racist for putting up signs saying "Please speak English when ordering". What's so bad about that? Well, only people who can read, and supposedly speak, english can read the sign. So it misses its target audience. :p

I noticed that too, especially since channel 6, i think, went ballistic about it.

ZOMG, 7h3y m4k3 3m 5p34k 3n6|15h! 54y wh47?!?!

i'm sorry for being 'discriminatory' (cant spell, damnit), but guess what: in America you speak English. At least try to learn the language. I can see certain orgs and govt services offering help in Spanish, but you have to try. YOU ARE AN IMMIGRANT JUST LIKE THE MILLIONS OF IMMIGRANTS THAT HAVE COME BEFORE YOU. they weren't accomodated and neither will you. America was built on immigrants and I have no problem with them coming. Just try and adapt to a different place. Although, only in America will people stage a protest to come here illegaly.

I really dont want to see this turn into late 19th century America: Exclusion Acts, Gentleman's Agreemant, and the like.
Why is that? There's no official language in the USA. There's no law saying you HAVE to speak english.

Furthermore, do you agree that you HAVE to speak german in Germany? You have to be fluent in french to go to France? Then why do you have to speak english in the US? Can't tourist no appreciate a good Cheese Cake in Philadelphia by trying to communicate their want in their native tongue? No... you HAVE to use english to order. What a lazy way to do business.

I noticed that too, especially since channel 6, i think, went ballistic about it.

ZOMG, 7h3y m4k3 3m 5p34k 3n6|15h! 54y wh47?!?!

i'm sorry for being 'discriminatory' (cant spell, damnit), but guess what: in America you speak English.
I think you mean the United States of America, the most widley sponken language in the Americas is Spanish, I shall now read "America" as the USA


At least try to learn the language. I can see certain orgs and govt services offering help in Spanish, but you have to try. YOU ARE AN IMMIGRANT JUST LIKE THE MILLIONS OF IMMIGRANTS THAT HAVE COME BEFORE YOU. they weren't accomodated and neither will you. America was built on immigrants and I have no problem with them coming. Just try and adapt to a different place. Although, only in America will people stage a protest to come here illegaly.
Yes, but the first immigrants were mostly British or english-spkeaking, therefore it was easy for them (the ones that knew other languages were small)

And now, the masses of immigrants are huge, and they all wanna speak spanish



I really dont want to see this turn into late 19th century America: Exclusion Acts, Gentleman's Agreemant, and the like.
Then theres gonna have to be a lot more of spanish speaking people or you're gonna have to kick the immigrants out, because they're getting bigger, more immigrants come in every day, and they also seem to have mroe chidlren

Discriminatory and racist aren't the same thing. There are many instances when being discriminatory is perfectly valid. For example, firearms dealers discriminate against criminals by not selling them firearms. Its a much more ambiguous term than racist or racism.

So, making your customers speak English is discriminatory, by definition. However, it isn't racist. It doesn't single out any specific race or ethnicity. There really isn't anything wrong with it in my opinion.

Well, only people who can read, and supposedly speak, english can read the sign. So it misses its target audience. :p
Parler l'anglais s'il vous plaît
Por Favor, hable inglés

Geno's Steaks, the best place in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak sandwich, recently got accused of being racist for putting up signs saying "Please speak English when ordering". What's so bad about that? They don't refuse to serve customers who can't speak English well, they just ask that customers who can speak English do so.

Agreed 100%.

Well, only people who can read, and supposedly speak, english can read the sign. So it misses its target audience. :p
No it doesn't. it can only target people who can speak English but choose not to for some dumb reason.

Discriminatory and racist aren't the same thing. There are many instances when being discriminatory is perfectly valid. For example, firearms dealers discriminate against criminals by not selling them firearms. Its a much more ambiguous term than racist or racism.

So, making your customers speak English is discriminatory, by definition. However, it isn't racist. It doesn't single out any specific race or ethnicity. There really isn't anything wrong with it in my opinion.

white supremists not racist?

Its impossible to teach everyone every language in any country. So every country needs ONE official language than everyone has to know and other than that its voluntary. Why one language? its necessary, there are medical emergencies, fires, wars etc that needs fast communication. Culture and daily use of language to order things is a different thing so its not racist or fascist but practical necessity to have ONE official language.

My country has two official languages, and I love it. I would not mind if they bumped it up to three or four. To be honest I have only a highschool understanding of one of the languages, but it is something I plan on improving. Communication is such a vital part of the world, I think it is important that people be able to communicate through as many avenues as possible.

-About the restaurant thing, it sounds to me like the owners could have been a bit more tactful in their way of asking. There are several ways of politely showing that one's employees only speak one language. There could be a sign that reads as much (As someone already mentioned) or the employees could wear pins with the appropriate flags (If one employee happens to speak Dutch or something, it would be obvious then).

white supremists not racist?

Who said anything about white supremacists?

Discriminatory and racist aren't the same thing. There are many instances when being discriminatory is perfectly valid. For example, firearms dealers discriminate against criminals by not selling them firearms. Its a much more ambiguous term than racist or racism.

So, making your customers speak English is discriminatory, by definition. However, it isn't racist. It doesn't single out any specific race or ethnicity. There really isn't anything wrong with it in my opinion.
True. True.

It doesn't show that the restaurant is racist. It show a lazy tendency, nothing more.

Every other country accomidates english. The least we could do is accomidate the second most spoken language in our country.

I have to say, I don't see where Geno's is doing anything wrong. They operate in America, where English is the generally accepted language, if not the official one. Not everyone can afford translators for every immigrant that comes along, particularly if it's a small business that needs to keep costs down.

And I don't know about HAVING to speak German in Germany, or French in France, but I know that the natives that you ask for directions appreciate it a lot more when you at least try to learn a bit of their language and/or culture. 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do.' that quote definitely applies here.

No it doesn't. it can only target people who can speak English but choose not to for some dumb reason.So then the people that can't read/speak english are welcome to order in their own language after all? I mean, if the sign isn't suppsoe to apply to them..

Although it may not be racist or wrong per se, I still question if discriminating on the base of language is legal in the United States. I wouldn't be surprised if Geno's got a warning from the police or even had a lawsuit filed against it by the ACLU or something.

If you're in a restraunt that does not have translators or people who understand the language, SPEAK ENGLISH!

Who said anything about white supremacists?

ignore me, i'm clearly a bumbling idiot!

:(

If you're in a restraunt that does not have translators or people who understand the language, SPEAK ENGLISH!

I hope you never vacation in another country.

Hey does anyone else realize that in most other countries its MANDATORY to learn English?

I hope you never vacation in another country.

Hey does anyone else realize that in most other countries its MANDATORY to learn English?
Oh for sure, everyone in Ecuador speaks english

you people ever been to Togo? its the same, all english

I hope you never vacation in another country.

I have. I was in Panama in 1998. Guess what? I tried to speak spanish.

Hey does anyone else realize that in most other countries its MANDATORY to learn English?

Good. Then there is no excuse for not knowing the language.

I hope you never vacation in another country.

Hey does anyone else realize that in most other countries its MANDATORY to learn English?
Not the nationalist crackpots.


Good. Then there is no excuse for not knowing the language.
The point went right over your head didn't it?

So then the people that can't read/speak english are welcome to order in their own language after all? I mean, if the sign isn't suppsoe to apply to them..
They're welcome to try, but even people with fluent English who don't order quickly enough are told to go back to the end of the line at Genos or at it's inferior competitor pat's. You can't order "Um, I'll have a steak sandwich, with cheese, oh, what kind of cheese? Um, I don't know, what have you got". You'll get three syllables out and be sent to the back of the line until you learn how to order. Those places are busy.

If you're in a restraunt that does not have translators or people who understand the language, SPEAK ENGLISH!
"Yes, I would like to order the hamburger"
"Que?"

thats gonna work well in non-english speaking countries

"I would like to order the lamb"
"Quoi?"

Good. Then there is no excuse for not knowing the language.
I think you missed the point there

I think you mean the United States of America, the most widley sponken language in the Americas is Spanish, I shall now read "America" as the USA

Of course you should read America as the USA.... because the Americas has an S on the end, therefore not signifying the US.

And if we're going to be nitpicking... the USSR is no longer a country.

"Yes, I would like to order the hamburger"
"Que?"

thats gonna work well in non-english speaking countries

"I would like to order the lamb"
"Quoi?"

Was I talking about other countries? No.

Of course you should read America as the USA.... because the Americas has an S on the end, therefore not signifying the US.

And if we're going to be nitpicking... the USSR is no longer a country.
America is a continent, look it up

and reffering to your other statement, there are somethings you take seriously, and there are others that you dont take seriously

Was I talking about other countries? No.
I belive you jsut said "restaurant", other countries have restaurants

Although it may not be racist or wrong per se, I still question if discriminating on the base of language is legal in the United States. I wouldn't be surprised if Geno's got a warning from the police or even had a lawsuit filed against it by the ACLU or something.

I think a company reserves the right to sell to who they want its their bussiness after all.

If a expensive posh store says you need to wear formal clothing before entering and turns away smelly bums thats up to them. If they're having problems with communication leading to taking longer to serve people and wasting time which is money than its fair enough they set a qualification to the customer.

i get by with the universal language of pointing, smiling, apologising for not being able to speek the local language, but having a go usually works.
Saying hello, please and thank you helps too

They're welcome to try, but even people with fluent English who don't order quickly enough are told to go back to the end of the line at Genos or at it's inferior competitor pat's. You can't order "Um, I'll have a steak sandwich, with cheese, oh, what kind of cheese? Um, I don't know, what have you got". You'll get three syllables out and be sent to the back of the line until you learn how to order. Those places are busy.
what are they? Soup Nazi's?

DO they give you a menu while you wait in line? Is the wait that bad that they hafta kick ppl to the back of the line if they're too slow?

America is a continent, look it up

and reffering to your other statement, there are somethings you take seriously, and there are others that you dont take seriously

I'll look it up. Here is one definition of "America" from Webster's dictionary:

3: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

The fact is, in the English language, "America" is a synonym with "United States of America." They mean the exact same thing. People who refuse to use it because there are North and South American continents are also refusing to use the English language properly. It seems like good-intentioned, but pseudo-intelletual ranting when people avoid using "America" or "Americans" or try to substitute made-up words like USians.

I think it's pretty reasonable to expect a restaurant staff in the USA to speak only English. If somebody there speaks your language, you're in luck, but you shouldn't expect it.

I don't think it discriminatory to ask people to order in the language the staff understands. You can't expect or force the restaurant, or any other private business, to hire multilingual people. After all, if they think it's good for business they will hire them.

I think it's pretty reasonable to expect a restaurant staff in the USA to speak only English. If somebody there speaks your language, you're in luck, but you shouldn't expect it.

I don't think it discriminatory to ask people to order in the language the staff understands. You can't expect or force the restaurant, or any other private business, to hire multilingual people. After all, if they think it's good for business they will hire them.

I cant see how hiring a multilingual person is BAD for business, unless he/she is a horrible worker, but you wouldnt hire one of those anyway.

America is a continent, look it up
really? i didn't know that...

and reffering to your other statement, there are somethings you take seriously, and there are others that you dont take seriously
ah, so it's ok for you to say a snide comment about someone refering to the USA as America, but it's not ok for me to point out that the USSR doesn't exist anymore?

America is a continent, look it up

That's debatable. I believe most of the world uses the 7 continent system, whereby there is North America and South America, and not merely one. If you want to get really technical, "The United States" is more of a prefix, like "The Democratic Republic" or "The People's Republic" or "The Grand, Uber Vast Imperial Dominion." Thus, while "The People's Republic" sometimes conjures up China automatically, China is still the name of the country, not 'The People's Republic.'

At any rate, this isn't something worth nitpicking. Precedence and common usage dictates that America on its own dictates the United States of America.

America is a continent, look it up


hmmm...... it's two. north and south

http://americancomedynetwork.com/FLASH/MexTourism.htm

what are they? Soup Nazi's?

DO they give you a menu while you wait in line? Is the wait that bad that they hafta kick ppl to the back of the line if they're too slow?
The menu is posted on the wall. If you want a cheesesteak with peppers and onion using cheese whiz you need to say "Pepper whiz wit" or else they get annoyed with you and you may need to go to the back of the line. There is always a long line and they don't like to keep people waiting.

I cant see how hiring a multilingual person is BAD for business, unless he/she is a horrible worker, but you wouldnt hire one of those anyway.
It's not, but you can't force private business to hire them.

Maybe it is just my egocentric veiw of the world, but if i was to travel to another country, ie Germany, France, whatever, I would damn well learn the other language, or at least enough to ask "Where is the bathroom?" or "I would like a sandwhich.". I wouldn't expect another country to cater to my lack of knowledge of their language, why are we expected to do the same?

I went to the DMV the other day to get a motorcycle handbook so I can pass my upcoming lisence test, and I was shocked to find only the only ones out in the lobby were the ones written in Spanish. I went to ask at the counter for one in English and the clerk, or whatever they are called, informed me that they have begun to print more Spanish handbooks than the English ones, meaning there is a huge shortage of printed handbooks in English. (Yes, I know, I can go online and print them out, but I wanted to get one of the books without having to pay for the printing) I think the expression of confusion and down right dumbfoundedness said it all.

I'll look it up. Here is one definition of "America" from Webster's dictionary:

3: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

The fact is, in the English language, "America" is a synonym with "United States of America." They mean the exact same thing. People who refuse to use it because there are North and South American continents are also refusing to use the English language properly. It seems like good-intentioned, but pseudo-intelletual ranting when people avoid using "America" or "Americans" or try to substitute made-up words like USians.

Funny that you chose the THIRD entry, and not the first or second ones, which refer to continents and geographical areas

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/America

nice try, but it takes more than that to slip something by me

and as far as the synonim thing, that a horrible part on the english language, somewhere over the years a new word sould've arisen, but sadly it did not, and there is nothing we can do to change that

America is a continent, look it up

and reffering to your other statement, there are somethings you take seriously, and there are others that you dont take seriously

Since when do people refer to where they are from by their continents?

If you really want to get picky about it, a Mexican could say "Oh I'm from NORTH AMERICA", but he could not call himself an American.

Only an American could.

Shhiiiittte, America is big enough to be a continent? Talk about manifest destiny :D

America, America, God Shed his grace on thee....

I think you actually need to see Geno's owner defend the sign to understand it.

I myself see nothing wrong with it. And since yesterday, when I saw him being interviewed on NBC10 (Philly news), I agree with him.

He isn't being racist, discriminative, or an asshole. He's just saying if you come to America, learn that language.

*waits for Fass*

ah, so it's ok for you to say a snide comment about someone refering to the USA as America, but it's not ok for me to point out that the USSR doesn't exist anymore?
point it out

what it says for my location, its jsut not menat to be taken seriousky

Since when do people refer to where they are from by their continents?

If you really want to get picky about it, a Mexican could say "Oh I'm from NORTH AMERICA", but he could not call himself an American.

Only an American could.

Yes, they could. In fact I do. I am an American.

Yes, they could. In fact I do. I am an American.
as am I

Oh, for crying out loud. The purpose of communication is to say something that can be understood. When I say "I am from America" or "I am American," there is nobody who is going to think Mexico or Canada.

But aren't we getting seriously bogged down in meaningless details? I fail to see how saying either "USA" or "America" adds to or detracts from one's argument.

Funny that you chose the THIRD entry, and not the first or second ones, which refer to continents and geographical areas

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/America

nice try, but it takes more than that to slip something by me

and as far as the synonim thing, that a horrible part on the english language, somewhere over the years a new word sould've arisen, but sadly it did not, and there is nothing we can do to change that

Do you know how a dictionary works? Each entry is a different definition based on context. The third entry, and the fact that the Americas are continents (like I said), doesn't change the fact that when you speak English correctly you say "American" or "From America."

But since you think synonyms are horrible parts of the English language (and without a big surprise, you can't spell it either - synonym), I can't expect you to care too much about how to speak English correctly.

Oh, for crying out loud. The purpose of communication is to say something that can be understood. When I say "I am from America" or "I am American," there is nobody who is going to think Mexico or Canada.
Of course. Depends on context, but in most cases it would be perfectly clear.

Maybe it is just my egocentric veiw of the world, but if i was to travel to another country, ie Germany, France, whatever, I would damn well learn the other language, or at least enough to ask "Where is the bathroom?" or "I would like a sandwhich.". I wouldn't expect another country to cater to my lack of knowledge of their language, why are we expected to do the same?

I dont get how people think "oh you can just learn a couple of phrases and you can get by in another country." What happens when the hotel clerk scans your credit card and its denied? Chances are he/she will speak to you in English. If he/she doesnt, youre fucked.

I went to the DMV the other day to get a motorcycle handbook so I can pass my upcoming lisence test, and I was shocked to find only the only ones out in the lobby were the ones written in Spanish. I went to ask at the counter for one in English and the clerk, or whatever they are called, informed me that they have begun to print more Spanish handbooks than the English ones, meaning there is a huge shortage of printed handbooks in English. (Yes, I know, I can go online and print them out, but I wanted to get one of the books without having to pay for the printing) I think the expression of confusion and down right dumbfoundedness said it all.

I dont get it. Are you pissed that they have handbooks in spanish or are you pissed that either way they ran out of handbooks in english?

Do you know how a dictionary works? Each entry is a different definition based on context. The third entry, and the fact that the Americas are continents (like I said), doesn't change the fact that when you speak English correctly you say "American" or "From America."

But since you think synonyms are horrible parts of the English language (and without a big surprise, you can't spell it either - synonym), I can't expect you to care too much about how to speak English correctly.
Yes but im saying, there are other defenitions for the name, and that the continents are called "America", rather than just the Americas

and as far as synnonyms go, theres nothing you can do about it

and my spelling, hah, my spelling, I've always sucked, and I think I always shall

Funny that you chose the THIRD entry, and not the first or second ones, which refer to continents and geographical areas

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/America

nice try, but it takes more than that to slip something by me

and as far as the synonim thing, that a horrible part on the english language, somewhere over the years a new word sould've arisen, but sadly it did not, and there is nothing we can do to change that
just because it's the 3rd entry doesn't mean the definition still doesn't apply.

and as far as the "i call myself an american" It's country first, then continent.

but of course, that's just my opinion, and i doubt you would agree with me if i said water was wet or the sun hot.

and i don't need to point out your snide comment. As many times this has been discussed on these boards, you should know your comment about USA and America would incite an argument.

I dont get it. Are you pissed that they have handbooks in spanish or are you pissed that either way they ran out of handbooks in english?
i would think that she's pissed because they ran out of handbooks in english, meaning that they are catering more to the spanish speakers than english speakers.

Yes but im saying, there are other defenitions for the name, and that the continents are called "America", rather than just the Americas

and as far as synnonyms go, theres nothing you can do about it

and my spelling, hah, my spelling, I've always sucked, and I think I always shall

Right, and I'm just saying that you seem to be misunderstaning how a dictionary works. Each definition refers to a different context of the word. They generally don't overlap. Thus, when someone say "I'm from America", the context lets you know that they are talking about the third definition, the United States of America. I don't know if you've ever been or lived in South America, or Mexico, or any other country on the American continents, but they do not refer to themselves as "American" in the same context that citizens of the United States do.

Another example is the word "Asian." In common usage, only a certain demographic of the Asian population refers to themselves as Asian. Not every nationality who actually lives on the continent of Asia refers to themselves as Asian.

Neither of these terms cause confusion. When people say they are American, or Asian, we all know what they mean. That is why it becomes pseudo-intellectualism when people attempt to create a false problem, implying that there is some sort of confusion about what "American" means, when there is no such confusion in the English language.

usian usian usian blah blah usian blah

I think you actually need to see Geno's owner defend the sign to understand it.

I myself see nothing wrong with it. And since yesterday, when I saw him being interviewed on NBC10 (Philly news), I agree with him.

He isn't being racist, discriminative, or an asshole. He's just saying if you come to America, learn that language.*waits for Fass*


:eek:

Someone should go tell W to stop messing around with Fox.

Of course. Depends on context, but in most cases it would be perfectly clear.


Right.

Tropical Sands, also right.


ADVISER: Sir, we have caught an American spy!
KHRUSCHEV: What do you mean? A Mexican or a Canadian?
ADVISER: Hm. I don't know. You know what, let me check with Intel and I'll get back to you on that.
KHRUSCHEV: Alright. Ho hum.


Can we move on now?

Someone should go tell W to stop messing around with Fox.
Maaan! Fox's got the worst English... he tries, but he should just let the interpreter do her job.

Salinas, on the other hand, now he had very good English.

That's debatable. I believe most of the world uses the 7 continent system, whereby there is North America and South America, and not merely one. If you want to get really technical, "The United States" is more of a prefix, like "The Democratic Republic" or "The People's Republic" or "The Grand, Uber Vast Imperial Dominion." Thus, while "The People's Republic" sometimes conjures up China automatically, China is still the name of the country, not 'The People's Republic.'

At any rate, this isn't something worth nitpicking. Precedence and common usage dictates that America on its own dictates the United States of America.
That too is debatable. Depending on where you learned it, it can vary from 5, 6, 7 to 8 continents. America is sometimes one big continent. Sometimes, it's separated in two. So when someone says America is a continent, that's what they learned. When someone says that the Americas are two continents, that's what they learned. Let's not be snooty about it in our comments, like Mirchaz and Franberry did. As far as America = USA, I consider it the height of Jingoistic nationalism to associate your country to an entire continent. It would be more prudent to say USA.

Now that the sidetrack has been taken care of...

There's a difference between expecting people to talk in English (this is Philadelphia, after all) and posting a sign that basically say "talk english or get out". But from the description DCD made, I can see it from people who get annoyed when you take your time to order. They want productivity. That's good when there's a lot of people about but that's a bad business decision. It drives away customers. And when people will get fed up from being bossed around, they'll take their money and go elsewhere. I know I would not be a customer if they tell me to get at the back of the line and learn to order.

I think it's pretty reasonable to expect a restaurant staff in the USA to speak only English. If somebody there speaks your language, you're in luck, but you shouldn't expect it.

I don't think it discriminatory to ask people to order in the language the staff understands.

Have you worked in a restaurant in an A, B, or C city? Especially Philly? Probably one-third of the kitchen staff don't speak fluent English; Spanish is the first language of many. Of the other two-thirds, most speak at least conversational Spanglish. Most restaurant people will tell you that it's in their best interest to speak at least some Spanish; it's helpful in hiring and managing good help.

...As far as America = USA, I consider it the height of Jingoistic nationalism to associate your country to an entire continent. It would be more prudent to say USA.
So Australian's can't say they're Australian?
and IMO, it's more prudent to say I'm an American, v. I'm a citizen of the USA.
There's a difference between expecting people to talk in English (this is Philadelphia, after all) and posting a sign that basically say "talk english or get out". But from the description DCD made, I can see it from people who get annoyed when you take your time to order. They want productivity. That's good when there's a lot of people about but that's a bad business decision. It drives away customers. And when people will get fed up from being bossed around, they'll take their money and go elsewhere. I know I would not be a customer if they tell me to get at the back of the line and learn to order.
i agree. if i ever had the choice to eat here, i don't think i would because of this.

Perhaps the sign could be more user-friendly. It could read:

"Free English lessons for customers"

<snip>
There's a difference between expecting people to talk in English (this is Philadelphia, after all) and posting a sign that basically say "talk english or get out". But from the description DCD made, I can see it from people who get annoyed when you take your time to order. They want productivity. That's good when there's a lot of people about but that's a bad business decision. It drives away customers. And when people will get fed up from being bossed around, they'll take their money and go elsewhere. I know I would not be a customer if they tell me to get at the back of the line and learn to order.
Geno's has been in business for decades and the lines still stretch around the corner. Where else can they go? Pat's? They treat their customers the same and their steaks aren't quite as good. Still pretty good though.

So Australian's can't say they're Australian?
and IMO, it's more prudent to say I'm an American, v. I'm a citizen of the USA.

i agree. if i ever had the choice to eat here, i don't think i would because of this.
You'd miss out on a South Philly tradition and the best cheesesteak you'll ever eat.

But from the description DCD made, I can see it from people who get annoyed when you take your time to order. They want productivity... I know I would not be a customer if they tell me to get at the back of the line and learn to order.

i agree. if i ever had the choice to eat here, i don't think i would because of this.

The "Learn to order" crap doesn't bother me, it's what Pat's, Geno's and half a dozen other Philly Cheeseteak places are all about. It's rude, but it's part of the charm.

I won't patronize either place because both of them have signs like the one in question. I fully support their right to say what they want while still reserving my right to believe that the owners are assholes. And, those assholes won't get any of my money. (I don't shop at Wal-Mart for the same reason; I believe corporate Wal-Mart to be assholes.)

As for this:
You'd miss out on a South Philly tradition and the best cheesesteak you'll ever eat.

I disagree. Steve's is far superior and there are others just as good. Pat's and Geno's are just the most well-known.

Geno's Steaks, the best place in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak sandwich, recently got accused of being racist for putting up signs saying "Please speak English when ordering". What's so bad about that? They don't refuse to serve customers who can't speak English well, they just ask that customers who can speak English do so.

1) Tony Lukes is the best place in Philly for a cheesesteak.
2) The sign doesnt say Please speak English when ordering, it says "This is America, Speak English." Basically the same message, except one is tactful, the other isn't. Geno's was not tactful.

<snip>

I disagree. Steve's is far superior and there are others just as good. Pat's and Geno's are just the most well-known.
I'll bet fights have started over this issue.

I'll bet fights have started over this issue.

I know they have. :D

"This is America, Speak English."


Ah, well. In that case, the owners need to relax. Calm down. Pace around. Take out their anger on feathered pillows instead. The wording of this sign is plainly rude, and it's just begging for media attention. Tactless is a good way to describe it.

*snip*

What would a Pittsburgher know about it? They can't even be bothered to wear helmets let alone what a good cheesesteak is :D

Geno's Steaks, the best place in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak sandwich, recently got accused of being racist for putting up signs saying "Please speak English when ordering". What's so bad about that? They don't refuse to serve customers who can't speak English well, they just ask that customers who can speak English do so.
That's just stupid. The French don't normally speak English unless they have to, but they are the same "race" as the English. The entire thing is just bogus. Some people's children should never be allowed out of the house! :P

You'd miss out on a South Philly tradition and the best cheesesteak you'll ever eat.
meh, i was never a big fan of cheesesteaks anyway...

Discriminatory and racist aren't the same thing. There are many instances when being discriminatory is perfectly valid. For example, firearms dealers discriminate against criminals by not selling them firearms. Its a much more ambiguous term than racist or racism.

So, making your customers speak English is discriminatory, by definition. However, it isn't racist. It doesn't single out any specific race or ethnicity. There really isn't anything wrong with it in my opinion.

Exactly so. Unfortunately the people attacking the restaurant in question choose to couch their attacks with innacurate weasel words that end up being more insulting to the ethnicities they're trying to "protect". The essence of the "defenders" argument is that "the poor ignorant Mexicans are too dumb too learn and speak English, so make everybody else learn Spanish". Who's really discriminating on the basis of ethnicity and national origin here? It sure ain't Geno's...

What would a Pittsburgher know about it? They can't even be bothered to wear helmets let alone what a good cheesesteak is :D


ROFL. Hey, he's not really a Pittsburgher. He's from Ohio. :D

"When in Rome, speak as the Romans do". Don't go into a country where you don't speak the language and expect them to adapt to you. When we go into France and shout at them in English, we're bashed as "rude, ignorant, Americans". Maybe they are "racist" for not learning English. :p

I disagree. Steve's is far superior and there are others just as good. Pat's and Geno's are just the most well-known.

Too true. Real Philadelphians know that Pat's and Geno's are for tourists.

Where is Steve's?

Damnit, these threads make me hungry.

The essence of the "defenders" argument is that "the poor ignorant Mexicans are too dumb too learn and speak English, so make everybody else learn Spanish".

Um, no, my argument is that they choose not to learn English, and since that's their right to choose, they shouldn't be berated. Certainly, I don't expect others to learn Spanish (if they don't want to) to sell them products but to attack them because they don't speak a language they aren't legally required to, well, that sure sounds xenophobic to me.

Why is that? There's no official language in the USA. There's no law saying you HAVE to speak english.


While there is now law saying you have to speek English there are laws that say the following

- Companies offering a service are not legally obligated to provide a service in anything other than English
- If you wish to be a US citizen you have to be able to speek a rudimentary ammount of English

My brother's view on the argument: I don't know who to agree with. On the one hand, I hate liberals. But I also hate Italians.

Those two were never lumped together before :p
When visiting Philly, try and get in touch with a real Philadelphian, they can take you to some really good cheesesteak places.

More like "This is America, speak Cherokee."

So Australian's can't say they're Australian?
and IMO, it's more prudent to say I'm an American, v. I'm a citizen of the USA.


Australia's a county on the continent of Australasia

Too true. Real Philadelphians know that Pat's and Geno's are for tourists.

Where is Steve's?

Damnit, these threads make me hungry.

I've only eaten at this one:

Steve's Prince of Steaks
7200 Bustleton Avenue at St. Vincent
Philadelphia, PA
(215) 338-0985

but I have heard that there are several locations. Sorry, I had to look up the address. www.hollyeats.com has a pretty nice list of other places to try, too.

I've only eaten at this one:

Steve's Prince of Steaks
7200 Bustleton Avenue at St. Vincent
Philadelphia, PA
(215) 338-0985

but I have heard that there are several locations. Sorry, I had to look up the address. www.hollyeats.com has a pretty nice list of other places to try, too.

Thanks!
My recommendation: Tony Lukes, 2nd and Oregon.

I dont get how people think "oh you can just learn a couple of phrases and you can get by in another country." What happens when the hotel clerk scans your credit card and its denied? Chances are he/she will speak to you in English. If he/she doesnt, youre fucked.

Didn't mean just a couple of phrases. If I am going to another country as a tourist, I will (a) most likely know in advance enough that I can learn the "conversational" language, or (b) take a crash course in it and learn real, real fast. Yes, there will be siuations where I will have no clue as to what people are saying, BUT, for the most part, I would learn enough to get along reasonably well in that country, or at least have a pocket translater thingy. It is having a little respect for the other countries language and customs, rather than assuming they should cater to me and my lack of understanding, espicially when it comes to everyday things like ordering a sandwhich



I dont get it. Are you pissed that they have handbooks in spanish or are you pissed that either way they ran out of handbooks in english?

wasn't pissed, more so surprised that they had upped the production of Spanish books, catering to those who do not care to or want to or have means of learning english, while lowering the number of English books. i believe that if you are going to live, work, eat, sleep, whatever in a country, you should adapt to their culture, which means learning and understanding the language that is accepted by the majority, ie English.

Furthermore, do you agree that you HAVE to speak german in Germany? You have to be fluent in french to go to France?

If you're going to live there, it would probably be a pretty good idea to learn the language...

Um, no, my argument is that they choose not to learn English, and since that's their right to choose, they shouldn't be berated. Certainly, I don't expect others to learn Spanish (if they don't want to) to sell them products but to attack them because they don't speak a language they aren't legally required to, well, that sure sounds xenophobic to me.

Well if you want to claim that Geno's is racist or ethnically discriminatory on the basis or requesting that their patrons simply order in English, then you are arguing that it is a racial or ethnic trait to be unable to learn English. That's disgusting.

The restaurant in question has not made a legal argument. it is the ethnically prejudiced English refusniks who have done so, by taking legal action in an immoral attempt to impose and enforce minority languages on others.

So Australian's can't say they're Australian?
and IMO, it's more prudent to say I'm an American, v. I'm a citizen of the USA.

See, I learned that Australians live on the Oceania continent, so my stance is still secure. ;)

You'd miss out on a South Philly tradition and the best cheesesteak you'll ever eat.
Meh. Not a great loss if you ask me. I can feel my arteries clogging up with fat just speaking about it.

While there is now law saying you have to speek English there are laws that say the following

- Companies offering a service are not legally obligated to provide a service in anything other than English
- If you wish to be a US citizen you have to be able to speek a rudimentary ammount of English
Of course not.

That's why it was stupid of the poster I responded to to suggest that "This is america! Speak english." There's no such rule.

Well if you want to claim that Geno's is racist or ethnically discriminatory on the basis or requesting that their patrons simply order in English, then you are arguing that it is a racial or ethnic trait to be unable to learn English. That's disgusting.

The restaurant in question has not made a legal argument. it is the ethnically prejudiced English refusniks who have done so, by taking legal action in an immoral attempt to impose and enforce minority languages on others.

Nobody has claimed that anyone cannot learn English. You're the only one who has said that. I'm claiming that it's their choice not to learn, not their incapability. It's an asshole comment to say "This is America. Speak English." That's what I said. Don't try to put words into my mouth.

As for legal action, if Geno is not refusing to serve people of any race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. . ., he has every right to be an asshole.

If you're going to live there, it would probably be a pretty good idea to learn the language...
AS far as I know, it usually goes like this:

1st generation: Doesn't speak the majority language.
2nd generation: Speaks both languages
3rd generation: You're lucky if they speak anything else than the majority language.

There are people living in Canada than know not one iota of French and English and they manage. They live in burrough like 'little Italy' and speak italian. Same in Little China. So it's not a prerequisite. It's a good idea, of course, but not required.

But you won't see signs saying "This is Australia. Speak aussie, mate". I fail to see what these sign help other than to drive away business.

1) Tony Lukes is the best place in Philly for a cheesesteak.
2) The sign doesnt say Please speak English when ordering, it says "This is America, Speak English." Basically the same message, except one is tactful, the other isn't. Geno's was not tactful.

Ah, that changes my opinion. Politely requesting that customers do what they can to facilitate understanding and quick ordering is entirely reasonable; a sign like that is rude and stupid, and seems to have nothing to do with speeding up the ordering process and everything to do with the owner's political opinions.

I'm hispanic.

And no, it's not racist to ask the patrons to speak english.

Actually, I do not see the need for the advisory at all. Just saying "Sorry, sir, we do not understand you", it's ok.

It is the inmigrants' fault to move to a country expecting the natives to learn their languages instead of trying to learn the official tongue.

They should mature, or better, stay in their countries trying to improve their own nations instead of going to another place.

Of course, in discharge of the inmigrants, I should add that I have seen united staters down here screaming in english trying to order something and refusing to accept the fact that people do not understand them. And then leaving saying "They do not speak english, can you believe it?"

I don't see why there was any need to state this. Did they really have a huge problem with people ordering in Cantonese, Hindi, Spanish, Greek? I doubt it. The sign is a statement of beliefs, so take ownership of them, and don't pretend it was motivated by something else.

Nobody has claimed that anyone cannot learn English. You're the only one who has said that. I'm claiming that it's their choice not to learn, not their incapability. It's an asshole comment to say "This is America. Speak English." That's what I said. Don't try to put words into my mouth.

If you look through the other thread on this topic, you'll find that I'm not the only one who's made this argument. And even if you can't be bothered (I suspect you won't - try and surprise me), the basic argument made by the defenders is that their prejudice is an implicit one not an explicit one. Of course those filing the lawsuit against Geno's don't intend to explicitly say that "non-English speakers are too stupid to learn English". But it's implicit in the argument that Geno's should be legally required to provide Spanish, and that not doing so is "racialy" or ethnicly discriminatory, as their attackers have done.

As for legal action, if Geno is not refusing to serve people of any race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. . ., he has every right to be an asshole.

Try telling that to the jackasses bringing suit against Geno's for "racism".

(BTW, since you're new here, and may be misreading my posts, I'll mention that I am one of the stronger anti-racists here. Ask anyone who might be familiar with my posts on the topic of "race". I continualy fight against the notion that there are any exitant human races at all.)

I don't see why there was any need to state this. Did they really have a huge problem with people ordering in Cantonese, Hindi, Spanish, Greek? I doubt it. The sign is a statement of beliefs, so take ownership of them, and don't pretend it was motivated by something else.

Actually, as I understand it, Spanish speakers who refuse to learn English is the exact reason why they posted the sign.

Actually, as I understand it, Spanish speakers who refuse to learn English is the exact reason why they posted the sign.
So do what they do everywhere else in the world when someone speaks to you in a language you don't understand.

Stare blankly.

So do what they do everywhere else in the world when someone speaks to you in a language you don't understand.

Stare blankly.
It's funny, but a friend's husband is too lazy to learn English, but can make himself be understood with a couple of words and lots of signs sometimes better than his wife who speaks good English.

Another friend of mine was a small hotel manager in the Mexican Caribbean. She didn't speak a word on English, much less Italian, German, or French that most tourists to that particular place speak. She had blank paper and communicated using doodles and signs. The tourists quite enjoyed it.

So do what they do everywhere else in the world when someone speaks to you in a language you don't understand.

Stare blankly.

Unfortunately, in the US that'll get you exactly in the lawsuit involved here.

Yes, but the first immigrants were mostly British or english-spkeaking, therefore it was easy for them (the ones that knew other languages were small)

I think at least the Dutch (New Amsterdam) would disagree with you, as would the French (Illinois, Detroit).

As a private business, Geno's reserves the right to refuse service to anyone, as the old sign usually reads. If you don't like their policy, by all means don't eat there. Just because someone chooses to do business in a way that's potentiallt distasteful doesn't mean it's bad. All businesses discriminate in some way (no shoes, no shirt, no service...), and such is their right, so long as their policies are within the law. That said, it doesn't make them likeable.

Ah, well. In that case, the owners need to relax. Calm down. Pace around. Take out their anger on feathered pillows instead. The wording of this sign is plainly rude, and it's just begging for media attention. Tactless is a good way to describe it.
:)


¡Ésta es América! Al ordenar, *Hable Español*

Это будет америкой! Приказывая, поговорите русского!

I have a question.

Did this place originally have some sort of problem with too many people wanting to order in spanish?

Unfortunately, in the US that'll get you exactly in the lawsuit involved here.

For all that there are a lot of stupid lawsuits in the world, I don't think anyone would sue a business because a given employee didn't happen to understand Spanish/French/Hindi/Estonian/Swahili/Klingon. No business has ever been legally required to hire only people who are fluent in every tongue known to mankind.

For all that there are a lot of stupid lawsuits in the world, I don't think anyone would sue a business because a given employee didn't happen to understand Spanish/French/Hindi/Estonian/Swahili/Klingon. No business has ever been legally required to hire only people who are fluent in every tongue known to mankind.

Well welcome to thye idiocy of the modern US, where a restaurant gets a legal action for exactly that: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/14803774.htm

Well welcome to thye idiocy of the modern US, where a restaurant gets a legal action for exactly that: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/14803774.htm

Um, did you read the article? They're not being sued because some employees don't speak Spanish, they're being sued for putting up a sign which (at least according to the suit) is designed to make people of a particular nationality feel unwelcome. I question the validity of the lawsuit as well, but it still has nothing to do with employees' fluency or lack thereof in any language.

I have a question.

Did this place originally have some sort of problem with too many people wanting to order in spanish?

As far as I can determine from the articles on this subject (and I might note from the responeses on this, the second thread, fewer people are bothering to look at the sources) yes. That's pretty much what this is about.

Quick run down:
There's an immigrant neighborhood where the inhabitants speak English - maybe with an accent, and maybe it's not granny's 1st language, but they recognise thet English is the language of the land.
A number of newer immigrants move in and refuse to assimilate, particularly in regards to language. The ne set of immigrants often have broken the law in arriving.
A local old immigrant family owned restaurant asks that business be conducted in the majority language.
People request that the new immigrants be given special status in regards to the common language, therby implying that the new group are too stupid to learn the majority language, whine and start a legal action against the restaurant.

Um, did you read the article? They're not being sued because some employees don't speak Spanish, they're being sued for putting up a sign which (at least according to the suit) is designed to make people of a particular nationality feel unwelcome. I question the validity of the lawsuit as well, but it still has nothing to do with employees' fluency or lack thereof in any language.


I most certainly have read thgis and several other articles on the subject. Go back and read the articles yourself. The legal actions are in their very essence being taken on the grounds that not understanding a foreign language is now a racial crime.

I most certainly have read thgis and several other articles on the subject. Go back and read the articles yourself. The legal actions are in their very essence being taken on the grounds that not understanding a foreign language is now a racial crime.

No, they're not. As I said, I question whether the lawsuit is valid, but it is about them refusing to serve customers on the basis of national origin (which they may or may not have done) and posting printed material designed to make certain customers feel unwelcome on the basis of national origin. No one is suing them because someone ordered in Spanish and an employee said, "Sorry, I don't speak Spanish. Could you say that in English?"

ROFL. Hey, he's not really a Pittsburgher. He's from Ohio. :D

Ohio sucks worse than Pittsburgh :D

Well, only people who can read, and supposedly speak, english can read the sign. So it misses its target audience. :p
So put up a few other signs. "No habla espanol" "No parle-vous francois" etc. Problem solved.

This isn't discriminatory. It's people getting far too up in arms over the whole situation, seeing anything that might even come a wee bit CLOSE to being even SLIGHTLY discriminatory anti-immigrant. People and their stupidity...aiyah...

(Though if it were me running the place, I'd hire at least one Hispanic worker who was fluent in Spanish and English both to function as a translator. I can't learn languages worth a damn so I'd have to do that.)

So do what they do everywhere else in the world when someone speaks to you in a language you don't understand.

Stare blankly.
I thought it had been established that this Geno's place doesn't have time to do that.

As far as I can determine from the articles on this subject (and I might note from the responeses on this, the second thread, fewer people are bothering to look at the sources) yes. That's pretty much what this is about.

Quick run down:
There's an immigrant neighborhood where the inhabitants speak English - maybe with an accent, and maybe it's not granny's 1st language, but they recognise thet English is the language of the land.
A number of newer immigrants move in and refuse to assimilate, particularly in regards to language. The ne set of immigrants often have broken the law in arriving.
A local old immigrant family owned restaurant asks that business be conducted in the majority language.
People request that the new immigrants be given special status in regards to the common language, therby implying that the new group are too stupid to learn the majority language, whine and start a legal action against the restaurant.

Ok, look. I live in Jersey City. Alot of people here, especially in my neighborhood, do not speak english. But guess what? Nobody cares. Businesses say "hey wtf ever hire a guy that speaks spanish." Who gives a shit? Why is this such a big deal? If you are going to complain about it, do something to fix it. Dont just shrug the problem off.

No, they're not. As I said, I question whether the lawsuit is valid, but it is about them refusing to serve customers on the basis of national origin (which they may or may not have done) and posting printed material designed to make certain customers feel unwelcome on the basis of national origin. No one is suing them because someone ordered in Spanish and an employee said, "Sorry, I don't speak Spanish. Could you say that in English?"


Did you read the articles? That is EXACTLY what they are in legal trouble for!

Did you read the articles? That is EXACTLY what they are in legal trouble for!

I can't speak for any articles but the one that was posted on this thread, but it was quite definitely discussing a sign posted in the restaurant that said "This is America - speak English!" If there's another article that claims the lawsuit is about a particular employee not being fluent in Spanish, you're welcome to supply it.

ETA - From the article you yourself posted:

The city's Commission on Human Relations yesterday filed a discrimination complaint against Geno's Steaks over signs that read: "This is AMERICA ... WHEN ORDERING SPEAK ENGLISH."

According to the complaint, which was served on Geno's yesterday afternoon, the restaurant is in violation of two sections of the city's antidiscrimination laws: denying service to someone because of his or her national origin, and having printed material making certain groups of people feel their patronage is unwelcome.

I find it interesting that if the same thing happened in, say, France, there would be no commotion over a sign that said "Order in French" (written in French, not english, of course.)

Nor would there be a problem in Japan, China, Egypt, Russia, or any other country. Why? Because it's taken for granted that everyone there speaks their native language.

AS of today, English is the common and unifying language of America. It is officially used in government. We are taught it in school. The 300+ years of US and colonial history saw English used as the majority language.

Why is there even a problem? Logic dictates that when you move to France, you learnd to speak some French. When you move to China, you learn Chinese.

Why is America any different?

It is never discriminatory, if the country's main language is English, and if most people in the country speak English. In addition, if shopkeepers mostly employ English speaking employees, then it is no matter to ask customers to speak to them in their main language.

*waits for Fass*

Tee-hee! :cool:

i would think that she's pissed because they ran out of handbooks in english, meaning that they are catering more to the spanish speakers than english speakers.

Either that, or she's pointing out that there are far more people requesting English handbooks, so it really isn't necessary to print as many Spanish ones as they did.

Well, Youngstown is about as close as you can get...

;)

Youngstown sucks worse than Cleveland.

Ohio sucks worse than Pittsburgh :D

:upyours:

Why is there even a problem? Logic dictates that when you move to France, you learnd to speak some French. When you move to China, you learn Chinese.

Why is America any different?

America doesn't have an official language. That's what makes America different.

America doesn't have an official language. That's what makes America different.
Incorrect. It does now.

Youngstown sucks worse than Cleveland.

Well, Youngstown is pretty scary, especially with all of that mafia business, but Cleveland doesn't suck at all.

:upyours:

Now now. I live in PA. Live outside of Pittsburgh. I have full right to say it :D

Incorrect. It does now.

Are you talking about the Senate immigration bill?

Incorrect. It does now.

Did it pass the house?

Now now. I live in PA. Live outside of Pittsburgh. I have full right to say it :D

I suppose living in a Commonwealth would give you a superiority complex...

At least I don't live in Appalachia.

Are you talking about the Senate immigration bill?
Not sure what legislation exactly, but I heard that English is now your national language. As it should be.

Well, Youngstown is pretty scary, especially with all of that mafia business, but Cleveland doesn't suck at all.

Of course it does. We don't call it the mistake by the lake for no reason :D

I suppose living in a Commonwealth would give you a superiority complex...

At least I don't live in Appalachia.

I'm not originally from PA so :p

Did it pass the house?
I think so. One of my friends was rejoicing over the fact that English is the official language of the US. So I assume it did.

Not sure what legislation exactly, but I heard that English is now your national language. As it should be.

Well, that's not quite true. The Senate passed an immigration bill, and one of its provisions made English the official language. It still has to be ratified by the House of Representatives, and then signed into law by the President before it's official. From what I understand, it was meant to be purely symbolic.

I'm not originally from PA so :p

;)

Not sure what legislation exactly, but I heard that English is now your national language. As it should be.

You heard wrong.

So where does that leave us Deaf Americans? Are we criminals for not being able to speak English the way hearing Americans can? Are we criminals for prefering to use a language that's easier for us to understand?

Of course it does. We don't call it the mistake by the lake for no reason :D

The mistake by the lake was the old municipal stadium, not the city.

Well, that's not quite true. The Senate passed an immigration bill, and one of its provisions made English the official language. It still has to be ratified by the House of Representatives, and then signed into law by the President before it's official. From what I understand, it was meant to be purely symbolic.
Heh. Well, either way, if it passes, the US will no longer be "unique" in this fashion. All the better.

Heh. Well, either way, if it passes, the US will no longer be "unique" in this fashion. All the better.

Lol.

You heard wrong.

So where does that leave us Deaf Americans? Are we criminals for not being able to speak English the way hearing Americans can? Are we criminals for prefering to use a language that's easier for us to understand?

But you can still communicate in English, as you've just pointed out.

The mistake by the lake was the old municipal stadium, not the city.

Nah...its the whole city :D

Now now. I live in PA. Live outside of Pittsburgh. I have full right to say it :D

Don't listen to him, he's just being a jag off. Yins can say whatever yins guys wants to. (Speaking of Picksburgh, How 'bout them Stillers?!)

By the way, what side of town are you from? (North Hills, here.)

You heard wrong.

So where does that leave us Deaf Americans? Are we criminals for not being able to speak English the way hearing Americans can? Are we criminals for prefering to use a language that's easier for us to understand?
Doesn't seem to be much of a problem in other countries, which do have official languages. Deaf people are an extreme minority. Either way, the governments do tend to ensure that they are catered for. So this is a non-issue. And being deaf does not rob you of the ability to speak English. You still do that anyway. How well exactly, who knows.

Nah...its the whole city :D

It still rocks.

But you can still communicate in English, as you've just pointed out.

Only in text. I can communicate in several other languages too. I may have been raised with English, but many Deaf Americans were raised with ASL as their native language.

Doesn't seem to be much of a problem in other countries, which do have official languages. Deaf people are an extreme minority. Either way, the governments do tend to ensure that they are catered for. So this is a non-issue. And being deaf does not rob you of the ability to speak English. You still do that anyway. How well exactly, who knows.

Reality check here: 10% of all Americans are deaf or hard of hearing.

Only in text. I can communicate in several other languages too. I may have been raised with English, but many Deaf Americans were raised with ASL as their native language.

But do they not learn to read and write English in school?

Don't listen to him, he's just being a jag off. Yins can say whatever yins guys wants to. (Speaking of Picksburgh, How 'bout them Stillers?!)

If Rothie can wear a helmet, they'll do fine.

By the way, what side of town are you from? (North Hills, here.)

Suburbs actually.

It still rocks.

It stinks and so do the Brownies.

Don't listen to him, he's just being a jag off.

Ouch!

I do like you guys (yinz guys) a heck of a lot better than New Englanders, so don't be so quick to temper!

But do they not learn to read and write English in school?

That depends. I've seen Deaf students graduate high school with a third or fourth grade reading level.

It stinks and so do the Brownies.

Speaking of football... How's your QB's head? I heard he took a nasty spill...

Reality check here: 10% of all Americans are deaf or hard of hearing.
An extreme minority. Reality check passed. What you posed is not a good argument against an official language, seeing as nations who do have these have no problem in aiding the deaf.

That depends. I've seen Deaf students graduate high school with a third or fourth grade reading level.

:eek:

Speaking of football... How's your QB's head? I heard he took a nasty spill...

The moron got what he deserved, that jackass.

If Rothie can wear a helmet, they'll do fine.



Suburbs actually.

Yeah, technically I live beyond the city limits as well, but I can see the skyline from my house, so I consider myself living in Pittsburgh.

And Big Ben needs to learn he's not invincible.

Anyway, more on topic; I speak English and Pittsburghese fluently, and can interchange them at a moments notice. Of course, I wouldn't advise speaking Pittsburghese in Philly.

An extreme minority. Reality check passed.

Is the State of Texas an exterme minority?

The moron got what he deserved, that jackass.

Hahaha... The poor guy...

Is the State of Texas an exterme minority?
If it is 10% of the nation, yeah.

Yeah, technically I live beyond the city limits as well, but I can see the skyline from my house, so I consider myself living in Pittsburgh.

And Big Ben needs to learn he's not invincible.

Anyway, more on topic; I speak English and Pittsburghese fluently, and can interchange them at a moments notice. Of course, I wouldn't advise speaking Pittsburghese in Philly.

Careful what you say about philly. my gf lives there :D As for pittsburghese, it sucks as a language. Its funny but meh.

If it is 10% of the nation, yeah.

Actually, it's more like 6% of the nation.

Yeah, technically I live beyond the city limits as well, but I can see the skyline from my house, so I consider myself living in Pittsburgh.

And Big Ben needs to learn he's not invincible.

Anyway, more on topic; I speak English and Pittsburghese fluently, and can interchange them at a moments notice. Of course, I wouldn't advise speaking Pittsburghese in Philly.

Personally, I think people from Philadelphia are worse than yinzers... I mean, they can't even say the word 'orange!'

Hahaha... The poor guy...

I'm glad he is fine and is going to be ok but he really needs to learn to wear that helmet.

I'm glad he is fine and is going to be ok but he really needs to learn to wear that helmet.

Yeah. It really scares me to see people riding around without them, especially on the freeway.

Actually, it's more like 6% of the nation.
Then yes, it is definitely one. That leaves the other 94% of the nation spread over in other states.

Personally, I think people from Philadelphia are worse than yinzers... I mean, they can't even say the word 'orange!'

Watch what you say about philly as well :angry:

Watch what you say about philly as well :angry:

Sorry...

Yeah. It really scares me to see people riding around without them, especially on the freeway.

Not against the law of PA unfortunately.

Careful what you say about philly. my gf lives there :D As for pittsburghese, it sucks as a language. Its funny but meh.

Yeah... you grow up around it and it's great fun. I guess it doesn't really count as a language, but we do have some interesting words (defined parenthetically for you Ohiuns and such) ...

yins (you guys), abaht (about), iggle (eagle, as in gian' iggle [giant eagle]), jag off (jerk), gum band (rubber band), pop (soda), n'at (etc.), ickscape (escape), jeet jet (did you eat yet?) and probably a lot of other stuff, too.

There's a website about it, it gets kind of rediculous.

Yeah... you grow up around it and it's great fun. I guess it doesn't really count as a language, but we do have some interesting words (defined parenthetically for you Ohiuns and such) ...

yins (you guys), abaht (about), iggle (eagle, as in gian' iggle [giant eagle]), jag off (jerk), gum band (rubber band), pop (soda), n'at (etc.), ickscape (escape), jeet jet (did you eat yet?) and probably a lot of other stuff, too.

N.B.- it's unnecessary to define 'pop.' ;)

N.B.- it's unnecessary to define 'pop.' ;)

I talked to some folks from Maryland once who didn't know what it meant. I said "hand me some pop," and this guy looked at me like I was nuts.

Not against the law of PA unfortunately.

I don't know about us... It probably isn't illegal either, given the number of motorcyclists I see doing it, or else it just isn't enforced.

Yeah... you grow up around it and it's great fun. I guess it doesn't really count as a language, but we do have some interesting words (defined parenthetically for you Ohiuns and such) ...

yins (you guys), abaht (about), iggle (eagle, as in gian' iggle [giant eagle]), jag off (jerk), gum band (rubber band), pop (soda), n'at (etc.), ickscape (escape), jeet jet (did you eat yet?) and probably a lot of other stuff, too.

There's a website about it, it gets kind of rediculous.

Website? Heck, there's a book. :D

I talked to some folks from Maryland once who didn't know what it meant. I said "hand me some pop," and this guy looked at me like I was nuts.

Yeah, they do that on the East Coast. We Ohioans, however, only drink pop.

Website? Heck, there's a book. :D

Haven't seen it. By the way, is it Phillidelphains who say "worshed," instead of "washed?" I've heard Pittsburghers say it too, but I think its borrowed from somewhere else...

Website? Heck, there's a book. :D

I recently got a Rhode Islandese dictionary (that's where I go to school.) It's bizarre.

Haven't seen it. By the way, is it Phillidelphains who say "worshed," instead of "washed?" I've heard Pittsburghers say it too, but I think its borrowed from somewhere else...

I've heard it in Southern Ohio, too, but I don't know if they say it in Philadelphia.

Haven't seen it. By the way, is it Phillidelphains who say "worshed," instead of "washed?" I've heard Pittsburghers say it too, but I think its borrowed from somewhere else...

I think my gf says wash.

Wasn't this thread originaly about discrimination? Oh well, I guess I kind of started the off-topicness.

Wasn't this thread originaly about discrimination? Oh well, I guess I kind of started the off-topicness.

I think everyone with fires in their bellies left for the day.

I don't see why there was any need to state this. Did they really have a huge problem with people ordering in Cantonese, Hindi, Spanish, Greek? I doubt it. The sign is a statement of beliefs, so take ownership of them, and don't pretend it was motivated by something else.

Not Cantonese Hindi or Greek. Just Spanish. The neighborhood used to be mostly Italian, but there has been a huge influx of Hispanics (mostly Mexican, I think, but I'm not sure.

Wasn't this thread originaly about discrimination? Oh well, I guess I kind of started the off-topicness.

LOL! Us pittsburghians love to do that :D

Well, it's been lovely, but I'm off. Good night, and good luck.

I think the reason why they were accused of being discriminatory is simple wording. "Only order in English" carries a more restrictive and strict meaning than does "We only understand English" (Solomente comprendemos ingles etc) or something along those lines. Similarly "helping the poor" is seen as more positive than "welfare" and "certified pre-owned" to "used". Weird how wording can make a LOT of difference. And then there's built in linguistic treadmills... because things seem more "offensive" as time goes on. o then they'd come up with a new and less direct phrase for "order just in english" Weird, interesting, and silly how that works.

Evolution of a term. Set?
Idiot/Moron> Retarded > Challenged >now trying to be "differently able" until that becomes offensive XP

I think the reason why they were accused of being discriminatory is simple wording. "Only order in English" carries a more restrictive and strict meaning than does "We only understand English" (Solomente comprendemos ingles etc) or something along those lines. Similarly "helping the poor" is seen as more positive than "welfare" and "certified pre-owned" to "used". Weird how wording can make a LOT of difference. And then there's built in linguistic treadmills... because things seem more "offensive" as time goes on. o then they'd come up with a new and less direct phrase for "order just in english" Weird, interesting, and silly how that works.

Evolution of a term. Set?
Idiot/Moron> Retarded > Challenged >now trying to be "differently able" until that becomes offensive XP

Private business! They can legally do that.

Geno's Steaks, the best place in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak sandwich, recently got accused of being racist for putting up signs saying "Please speak English when ordering". What's so bad about that? They don't refuse to serve customers who can't speak English well, they just ask that customers who can speak English do so.
Why can't they just hire people who speak all languages? Racist bastards.

i'm sorry for being 'discriminatory' (cant spell, damnit), but guess what: in America you speak English. At least try to learn the language. I can see certain orgs and govt services offering help in Spanish, but you have to try. YOU ARE AN IMMIGRANT JUST LIKE THE MILLIONS OF IMMIGRANTS THAT HAVE COME BEFORE YOU. they weren't accomodated and neither will you. America was built on immigrants and I have no problem with them coming. Just try and adapt to a different place. Although, only in America will people stage a protest to come here illegaly.
Tell me, do you speak another language? Have you ever lived (not visited, but lived) in another country that does not speak your language? Do you have any bloody idea how hard it is to get to a point of being able to function in another language?

I use Japanese to order food, and usually I can get what I want. But there have been times when I was forced to point because I could not say what I wanted. So what should I have done then, starved?

I give up. I have changed my mind and now freely state that the US needs to make learning another language manditory (and if we could drop everyone off into another country for a bit that would be a plus).

BTW, they are learning English. Classes teaching ESL are full up around the country so they are learning it. But learning a language takes a very, very long time.

No, would a Mexican restaurant asking people to speak Spanish be discriminatory? Although I think it was a political move.

No, would a Mexican restaurant asking people to speak Spanish be discriminatory? Although I think it was a political move.

A private business can do what they want! Hence the word private. If a public institution did this, then I'll understand the outrage. However, this was a private business and he can do whatever the heck he wants.

No, would a Mexican restaurant asking people to speak Spanish be discriminatory?

I wouldn't care, personally. I can order in Spanish just fine, and good Mexican food is worth it. :)

Tell me, do you speak another language? Have you ever lived (not visited, but lived) in another country that does not speak your language? Do you have any bloody idea how hard it is to get to a point of being able to function in another language?

I use Japanese to order food, and usually I can get what I want. But there have been times when I was forced to point because I could not say what I wanted. So what should I have done then, starved?

I give up. I have changed my mind and now freely state that the US needs to make learning another language manditory (and if we could drop everyone off into another country for a bit that would be a plus).

BTW, they are learning English. Classes teaching ESL are full up around the country so they are learning it. But learning a language takes a very, very long time.
Wait.... Fass tells us that it's rediculously easy to learn another language, 6-7 months at best. Infact, the only reason for someone not learning English is lazyness or wilful ignorance.

Tell us why someone in the US choose to live in France, yet insist on the French cater to them by doing for them in English?

Wait.... Fass tells us that it's rediculously easy to learn another language, 6-7 months at best. Infact, the only reason for someone not learning English is lazyness or wilful ignorance.
Learning another language is not so simple an affair. Some people (like Fass, or even myself) have increased aptitude in it. Others do not. Either way, given that one has other engagements to consider before language learning, it is not just 6-7 months. Learning a language to an advanced level may take years.

Tell us why someone in the US choose to live in France, yet insist on the French cater to them by doing for them in English?
They are imbeciles if they do so.

hmm..so if an american speaking english in france is rude, how is someone speaking spanish in america not rude? english is the (unofficial) language of the U.S.

Why should the pre-existing have to change? shouldnt it be those that want to live in the current american culture?

hmm..so if an american speaking english in france is rude, how is someone speaking spanish in america not rude? english is the (unofficial) language of the U.S.


Is the American living in France, or just (legally) visiting? If they are travelling in France, I wouldn't view it as rude or even impolite. Maybe a poor choice on their part, but nothing else. These are two different scenarios.

Is the American living in France, or just (legally) visiting? If they are travelling in France, I wouldn't view it as rude or even impolite. Maybe a poor choice on their part, but nothing else. These are two different scenarios.
Well the post he is quoting was referring to someone living in the France.

from the point of view of the business, there really is no difference between the two. Also, it makes a rather good incentive for learning the new language, because its not like anyone is going to starve if they cant go to a restaurant.
Dont forget, discrimination IS legal. simply on certain basises it isnt. (i know i screwed the pooch on that spelling).

Wait.... Fass tells us that it's rediculously easy to learn another language, 6-7 months at best. Infact, the only reason for someone not learning English is lazyness or wilful ignorance.
That's what Fass says. He may have a gift for languages. I teach English and nothing I have either learned or seen says that everyone can pick up a second language in 6 to 7 months.

And what are you supposed to do during that time anyway? Starve?

Tell us why someone in the US choose to live in France, yet insist on the French cater to them by doing for them in English?
Don't know, I don't live in France.

But I HAVE met plenty of American tourists who seem to be shocked, shocked, that Japan speaks Japanese and it's damn well hard to find an English speaker who can understand you.

In any case, I don't demand that any establishment hires a translator, but to say only by ordering in English can you eat here is ignorant in terms of what it takes to learn any language. Since most Americans DON'T learn other languages, I have a very sneaky feeling that most of this English Only crap is born from not having the slightest clue on what it's like to suddenly not be able to speak.

I wonder though, if he only accepts English only, what will he do when deaf/mute people come in and sign? That's not English after all.

Well the post he is quoting was referring to someone living in the France.
Ok, they were being rude. :)

Well, only people who can read, and supposedly speak, english can read the sign. So it misses its target audience. :p

Good point.

you most certainly can pick up a rudementary knowledge of a foreign language in a half a year. we're not talking fluent folks. just the ability to order a freakin sandwich. hell, i took one school year (180 days) of french. i still remember a decent amount of it several years later. j'aime le poumplemousse, sil'vous plait. (i like the grapefruit please) or some shit.
And this is at a restaurant. a LUXURY. not a nescessity. nobody's starving.

IMO it seems like the restauraunt was having problems understanding some of their customers and, potentially, had one billingual staff member who was constantly being bothered to take orders that other employees were assigned to take.

hmm..so if an american speaking english in france is rude, how is someone speaking spanish in america not rude? english is the (unofficial) language of the U.S.

Why should the pre-existing have to change? shouldnt it be those that want to live in the current american culture?
You somehow seem to believe that as soon as you step into another country you automatically pickup the language to be able to converse in it and order with the same ease and flair that you do at home so speaking your L1 is obviously meant as an insult or lazyness.

Either that or you can just memorize a phrasebook.

Please tell me, have you learned another language? Which ones? Have you actually tried to use them in a place where you could not fall back on your L1?

that's a definete possibility rainbow, that somebody's day was being completely taken over by this. it happens.

the real problem here is with whoever called this in as descriminatory. people need to stop being so freakin sensitive to this shit. if i want to answer my door naked, well, you dont have to be at my door, now do you. thats a choice you made. if i want to mandate that you speak a certain language to be served in my private business, well, theres more than one business around.

But I HAVE met plenty of American tourists who seem to be shocked, shocked, that Japan speaks Japanese and it's damn well hard to find an English speaker who can understand you.
Haha, so true! I was in Mexico, a very touristy part of Mexico where everyone spoke some english, and I over heard an American complaining about how not everyone spoke english. Seriously do a tiny bit of research when you travel. Even if you don't know how to say "Where is the washroom?" in the native language, at least know what the native language is.

you most certainly can pick up a rudementary knowledge of a foreign language in a half a year. we're not talking fluent folks. just the ability to order a freakin sandwich. hell, i took one school year (180 days) of french. i still remember a decent amount of it several years later. j'aime le poumplemousse, sil'vous plait. (i like the grapefruit please) or some shit.
Bull. Try it. Please. Go to France and see how well it actually works because what you THINK is enough suddenly is not enough.

And this is at a restaurant. a LUXURY. not a nescessity. nobody's starving.
Really? And if you can't read the lables in stores, what shall you cook?

I found out the hard way that what I thought was jelly wasn't. And how can you cook it if you cannot read the directions. Tell me, can you understand: 肉　物　魚　鳥? Can you tell me what the difference between 焼き鳥, 焼き猫, and　すき焼き is?

Personally, I think people from Philadelphia are worse than yinzers... I mean, they can't even say the word 'orange!'
Yeah, sure. If by "worse" you mean "incredibly awesome"!

In any case, I don't demand that any establishment hires a translator, but to say only by ordering in English can you eat here is ignorant in terms of what it takes to learn any language. Since most Americans DON'T learn other languages, I have a very sneaky feeling that most of this English Only crap is born from not having the slightest clue on what it's like to suddenly not be able to speak.

Well, they could discriminate in such a way if they chose. It would just be bad business sense. Either way, advising, as opposed to restricting, customers to order in English is not as problematic.

Well, they could discriminate in such a way if they chose. It would just be bad business sense. Either way, advising, as opposed to restricting, customers to order in English is not as problematic.
I didn't say he couldn't do it, it is his place after all. I just said the chest thumping of "They have to speak English or else" is born of ignorance.

On the very few occations that I have encountered a store in Japan unwilling to help me due to the language issue, I take my money elsewhere and make sure to tell everyone else not to go to that particular store.

Of course Japan still allows discrimination against us 外人 in various places.

I didn't say he couldn't do it, it is his place after all. I just said the chest thumping of "They have to speak English or else" is born of ignorance.

On the very few occations that I have encountered a store in Japan unwilling to help me due to the language issue, I take my money elsewhere and make sure to tell everyone else not to go to that particular store.
Exactly. That is why I say it makes terrible business sense. One should be able to discriminate thus if they so chose, but they have to be aware of the consequences. They will be painfully aware they start losing cash.

Of course Japan still allows discrimination against us 外人 in various places.
I've heard about that; like certain clubs only allow admission to Japanese I think?

People keep saying the lawsuit is racist against Hispanics because it implies they cannot learn English. I don't think that is the case. Of course anyone who truly wants to can learn english. But its foolish to think crossing the border between Mexico and the US should suddenly infuse them with knowledge of the English language. Languages are hard to learn, and picked up gradually.

Does the sign warrant a lawsuit? No. Is the guy who put it up an ass? Hellz Yes. Frankly, what the sign warrants is a boycott. Not a huge loss to anyone, anyways, cuz there are loads of places in Philly, especially South Philly, where one can get a cheesesteak.

And, I have to agree with whoever said earlier that Ohio sucks.

I've heard about that; like certain clubs only allow admission to Japanese I think?
More than just certain clubs. http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html , more than just certain clubs.

I can't speak for any articles but the one that was posted on this thread, but it was quite definitely discussing a sign posted in the restaurant that said "This is America - speak English!" If there's another article that claims the lawsuit is about a particular employee not being fluent in Spanish, you're welcome to supply it.

ETA - From the article you yourself posted:
The city's Commission on Human Relations yesterday filed a discrimination complaint against Geno's Steaks over signs that read: "This is AMERICA ... WHEN ORDERING SPEAK ENGLISH."

According to the complaint, which was served on Geno's yesterday afternoon, the restaurant is in violation of two sections of the city's antidiscrimination laws: denying service to someone because of his or her national origin, and having printed material making certain groups of people feel their patronage is unwelcome.

And just why do you think they have this sign that is getting the in trouble? Do you think they would put it up for any other reason?

More than just certain clubs. http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html , more than just certain clubs.
Wow, quite a huge list.

Bull. Try it. Please. Go to France and see how well it actually works because what you THINK is enough suddenly is not enough.


Really? And if you can't read the lables in stores, what shall you cook?

I found out the hard way that what I thought was jelly wasn't. And how can you cook it if you cannot read the directions. Tell me, can you understand: 肉　物　魚　鳥? Can you tell me what the difference between 焼き鳥, 焼き猫, and　すき焼き is?
Ever heard of a Spanish-English dictionary?
French-English dictionary?

Wow, quite a huge list.

And it goes well beyond that list. Those are just the places that bother to put up a sign.

That being said, there are also plenty of places that will bend over backwards going out of their way to help, sometimes going to far. (Sometimes it seems like I practically have to "bash" sales or wait staff over the head with heavy duty Japanese to get through to them that yes, I can order a beer in Japanese, and, no, it's not amazing, wonderful, and extremely skillfull of me that I can do so. :))

People keep saying the lawsuit is racist against Hispanics because it implies they cannot learn English. I don't think that is the case. Of course anyone who truly wants to can learn english. But its foolish to think crossing the border between Mexico and the US should suddenly infuse them with knowledge of the English language. Languages are hard to learn, and picked up gradually.

Does the sign warrant a lawsuit? No. Is the guy who put it up an ass? Hellz Yes. Frankly, what the sign warrants is a boycott. Not a huge loss to anyone, anyways, cuz there are loads of places in Philly, especially South Philly, where one can get a cheesesteak.

Oh, the people filing don't think it is either. And, yes, one doesn't magically learn a language automatically (would that you could!). But only one side of this debate puts an inability to learn a language down to "race" or ethnicity. The restaurant puts faith in people's ability to learn. Those protesting and bringing suit over the policy do not.

*waits for Fass*
Tee-hee! :cool:

Yeah, where is the fellow? Last time I saw him, he was getting owned in the first thread on this...

Nothing wrong with that, but a better way to put it might have been "We only understand English." I mean, same thing, but it's a little more like 'Go ahead, speak Gobbledegook for all we care. Just don't complain when we serve you up Thrice-Cooked Llama Entrails.


lol...great post

Ever heard of a Spanish-English dictionary?
French-English dictionary?
Every tried to flip through a dictionary when ordering food with a long line behind you?

Very fun.

Every tried to flip through a dictionary when ordering food with a long line behind you?

Very fun.

Oh, man! LOL. That reminded me of these two guys - one Canadian and the other Japanese, who used to do sketch comedy around the Osaka bar circuit. They were both bilingual, so their stuff was mostly cross-cultural humor. One of their best sketches had the Japanese guy as a convienence store clerk. The gaijin customer walks in and puts his purchase (usually a beer) on the counter, then pulls out a phrase book and starts flipping trough it. Meanwhile, the clerk stuffs the beer into a series of bags. Finally, after the clerk has put it in at least 7 or 8 bags*, the customer finds what he's looking for, looks up, and says "fukuro wa iranai"**.

*For those unfamiliar with Japan, stores are infamous for overpackaging. I've actually had things wrapped in more bags than purchase items, because each purchase may be wrapped in it's own bag, and then all put in another bag, or even bags. At least until I learned how to ask for either just one bag or no bag. And even then I run across clerks who don't believe I don't want my two bagels wrapped in three bags.

** "I don't need a bag."/"No bag, please."

Every tried to flip through a dictionary when ordering food with a long line behind you?

Very fun.
You were talking about labels in a store, or how to read directions on how to cook. I was replying to that.

You were talking about labels in a store, or how to read directions on how to cook. I was replying to that.

All those items also appear on menus.

That being said, there are also plenty of places that will bend over backwards going out of their way to help, sometimes going to far. (Sometimes it seems like I practically have to "bash" sales or wait staff over the head with heavy duty Japanese to get through to them that yes, I can order a beer in Japanese, and, no, it's not amazing, wonderful, and extremely skillfull of me that I can do so. :))
*lol* Yeah, I can really understand you're feeling there.

Thankfully I've always encountered the later instead of the former.

*lol* Yeah, I can really understand you're feeling there.

Thankfully I've always encountered the later instead of the former.

Haven't come across too many xenophobes. However the funniest was guys in the black truck ;) who got on the megaphone and yelled at some friends friends of mine to "go home-u foreign-a". Wish I had been there.

"This is America, Speak English."


Wow, I can see Philadelphia is encouraging tourism a lot.

I would be deeply offended to see a sign like that one in a restaurant. I wouldn't enter, of course. Although, as you can see, I can manage to order in english, not every tourist is able to do that.

But then, what about just pointing at the menu?. Words aren't totally necessary in a restaurant.

Wow, I can see Philadelphia is encouraging tourism a lot.

I would be deeply offended to see a sign like that one in a restaurant. I wouldn't enter, of course. Although, as you can see, I can manage to order in english, not every tourist is able to do that.

But then, what about just pointing at the menu?. Words aren't totally necessary in a restaurant.

I don't think, somehow, that Philly's tourist-appeal to, say, the average Euro or Jap would be increased if Philly's Lingua Franca became spanglish or ebonics.

Reality-check: how many Euro's and Japanese went to the chocolate mecca part of Atlanta, during the Olympics, wot?

there is no place in the western hemisphere where 'english' is the indigenous language. if you want people to speak the language of where they are, you're just going to have to dig up the language spoken by the people where ever you happen to be, that they spoke before the terrorist invasion of 1492 and whatever earlier ones, learn it, and use it.

=^^=
.../\...

there is no place in the western hemisphere where 'english' is the indigenous language.England? At least the part west of the greenwhich line, if you want to get technical about 'western hemisphere'. (Generally most of Europe is considered part of the west, so the whole of England fits in.)
If you want to get technical about 'indigenous', people originated from Africa, so somewhere around there is the single place on earth with an indigenous language. Everywhere else is from people the immigrated there over the past few million years.

I don't think, somehow, that Philly's tourist-appeal to, say, the average Euro or Jap would be increased if Philly's Lingua Franca became spanglish or ebonics.

Reality-check: how many Euro's and Japanese went to the chocolate mecca part of Atlanta, during the Olympics, wot?

I am spanish, thus Euro, and I would be offended by that sign.

I do not expect spanish to become a lingua franca in Philadelphia or the United States, for that matter.

I order in english in english speaking countries, although. As I order in french in France, or in italian in Italy.

I was just pinpointing at the fact that a "We do not understand foreign languages, please use english to order" sign is ok. (Note the weight of the word "please" there).

A "This is America. Speak english" sign can be offensive, yes, sounds like "Take your monkey gibbering to someplace else". And again, I can put a sign here saying "Esto es América. Hable español", although it would be as turthful and offensive as the former.

Try at least "These are the United States of America. Speak english", again, half the continent speak spanish.

I am spanish, thus Euro, and I would be offended by that sign.

I do not expect spanish to become a lingua franca in Philadelphia or the United States, for that matter.

I order in english in english speaking countries, although. As I order in french in France, or in italian in Italy.

I was just pinpointing at the fact that a "We do not understand foreign languages, please use english to order" sign is ok. (Note the weight of the word "please" there).

A "This is America. Speak english" sign can be offensive, yes, sounds like "Take your monkey gibbering to someplace else". And again, I can put a sign here saying "Esto es América. Hable español", although it would be as turthful and offensive as the former.

Try at least "These are the United States of America. Speak english", again, half the continent speak spanish.

:D

(Although, "This is the United States..." would be correct, at least since the end of the civil war.)

And we do not. If you cannot bother to order in english, especially if you live in America, learn it and then order in english.

This is a private business people. Wether you get offended or not does not concern me. Frankly I do not care if it offends people. Welcome to the USA where we DO speak English and we much prefer it if you speak English too.

Geno's Steaks, the best place in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak sandwich, recently got accused of being racist for putting up signs saying "Please speak English when ordering". What's so bad about that? They don't refuse to serve customers who can't speak English well, they just ask that customers who can speak English do so.

I find this accusation of racism inconsiderate. I don't blame them for asking for english. I wouldn't if it was ONLY english, and couldn't serve people who speak a language none of the employees speak. In fact, all countries should do this or get a translator at every public service.

I am spanish, thus Euro, and I would be offended by that sign.

I do not expect spanish to become a lingua franca in Philadelphia or the United States, for that matter.

I order in english in english speaking countries, although. As I order in french in France, or in italian in Italy.

I was just pinpointing at the fact that a "We do not understand foreign languages, please use english to order" sign is ok. (Note the weight of the word "please" there).

A "This is America. Speak english" sign can be offensive, yes, sounds like "Take your monkey gibbering to someplace else". And again, I can put a sign here saying "Esto es América. Hable español", although it would be as turthful and offensive as the former.

Try at least "These are the United States of America. Speak english", again, half the continent speak spanish.


If I wanted to go to a spanish speaking country, I would not be going to the United States.
That pretty much applies to French, Belgian, German, Danish, and Finnish visitors as well.
If the spanish-speakers don't like it, dur fromage to them.

And we do not. If you cannot bother to order in english, especially if you live in America, learn it and then order in english.
And you speak how many langues now?

I find this accusation of racism inconsiderate. I don't blame them for asking for english. I wouldn't if it was ONLY english, and couldn't serve people who speak a language none of the employees speak. In fact, all countries should do this or get a translator at every public service.

That'll run many small businesses out of business. It is not economical to do so.

And you speak how many langues now?

I speak a smattering of the following:

Japanese
German
Spanish
French
Russian
Italian

The people ordering should use english.

The employees shouldn't speak anything than english.

Non-english speakers should use signs and be conformists about it.

But the sign is offensive. Not enough offensive for a law suit, but enough offensive to see it, arch an eyebrow, and go eat someplace else.

Indeed it is the prerrogative of the owner to do whatever he wants with his business, but that doesn't mean anyone must like it.

Again, things like "Please", "We are sorry", help a lot. He was for sure hoping for some propaganda or to call attention placing such a sign.

The people ordering should use english.

The employees shouldn't speak anything than english.

Non-english speakers should use signs and be conformists about it.

But the sign is offensive. Not enough offensive for a law suit, but enough offensive to see it, arch an eyebrow, and go eat someplace else.

Indeed it is the prerrogative of the owner to do whatever he wants with his business, but that doesn't mean anyone must like it.

Again, things like "Please", "We are sorry", help a lot. He was for sure hoping for some propaganda or to call attention placing such a sign.

Well, you got one thing right: societies have a right to demand conformity.
Those who don't wish to comply are entirely free to have a nice day - somewhere else.

And we do not. If you cannot bother to order in english, especially if you live in America, learn it and then order in english.

This is a private business people. Wether you get offended or not does not concern me. Frankly I do not care if it offends people. Welcome to the USA where we DO speak English and we much prefer it if you speak English too.


Ohhh handbags! So say then you went to a non English speaking place for a holiday, and wanted to eat out, which place would you eat at. The place where the waiters didn't mind you ording your food in your language, or the other one that only seems to want home grown custom?

By all means, if you want to alienate part of your customour base, then it's your bussiness(not your personaly, I know that) but it makes very bad business sense to me. I also don't really care, if an idiot wants to go out of business then, let it happen.

Ohhh handbags! So say then you went to a non English speaking place for a holiday, and wanted to eat out, which place would you eat at. The place where the waiters didn't mind you ording your food in your language, or the other one that only seems to want home grown custom?

When I went down to Panama in 1998, I ordered in Spanish.

When I went down to Panama in 1998, I ordered in Spanish.

And what exactly did you say?

And what exactly did you say?

Like i"m going to remember something that was 8 years ago.

whatever

And what exactly did you say?

Quiero un muestro de tus hechos, querida!

Quiero un muestro de tus hechos, querida!

Awful as I imagined. I didn't even understand what you wanted to say.

Awful as I imagined. I didn't even understand what you wanted to say.

*grins*
Copied it from Spitting Image...

*grins*
Copied it from Spitting Image...

It has no sense really.

it was something like..."I want a I show your facts"