NationStates Jolt Archive

Well...

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
He made crazy things happen
He Fasted for 40 days
He never had a biological earthly father
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
He predicted the future
He could read minds

And he fulfilled every single OT prophecy to a T

Songs have been written about him-This one is Original Superman, by pillar.

He heals the sick He saves the lost
and died for you in case you've forgot, man
He'll jump a building in a single bound
I once was lost but now I'm found
He needs no mask or cape or gown
all He needs is His holy crown
it's time for you to understand Jesus Christ the Original Superman
He'll be your hero in the end. He is that one true superfriend

Chorus

Kryptonite can't slow him down nothin' can at all
He's always there for you. He'll pick you up if you should fall

He came to earth in the flesh and
Performing miracles and died for man
A forty day fast is more than I could take
he did it for you and he did it for my sake
Ye of little faith he said to them raised his hand and all was calm again
It's time for you to understand
Jesus Christ the Original Superman

up up and away He's saving souls in a new way
Just like Superman was there He's always there to save the day
he works through all of us
Through Him we have the power
It's time to unify so we can constantly devour
The devil and all of his games we need not be ashamed
Of anything we can do that we can glorify His name
Many names he has been given
Prince of Peace Son of Man
Here's one more for his list.
the Original Superman

And one of my favorites, All for you by Jonah33. It covers the last few hours before Christ's crucifiction on the cross.

His time with them had stopped,
It's time for Him to carry out His father's will,
Is that He drink this cup
He's told them all along that He would go,
They could not follow Him
But He'll be back for them my friend

And now He sweats these drops of blood
And He prays take this cup from me
But He knows there's no other way
His father's will is that He take your sin, your shame,
Your place upon that cross of pain And die for you


There's no way to repay
All the pain He went through for you
His reason: simply His love
It's time to see the truth
And understand there's nothing you can do
His reason was simply you

It was all for, it was all for you
He bled and He died for you

We live by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ
Who died to set us free
From chains our flesh can give
You know that even if you were the only one He died for
That means only your sins drove the nails

No time to hesitate my friend
No time to second guess His love
There's nothing else that you can do
He already gave it all for you
All for you, all for you, all for you
Simply you
search

There's a ton more, but there are ev

And he fulfilled every single OT prophecy to a T

Do you happen to have a copy of a list which tells of the propechy of the messiah, and where it is fulfilled in the NT? I'd like to have that for personal study. :)

Yeah but his costume blew and in the end was brought down by not some cruel super villian but a bunch of ordinary smucks


Thank god fiction has goten better

Yeah but his costume blew and in the end was brought down by not some cruel super villian but a bunch of ordinary smucks


Thank god fiction has goten better
Absolutely, though its future has looked somewhat grim as of late. Lesbian Batgirl? If she's just a token lesbian you're gonna have a lot of pissed off comic-book geeks.

Well...

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He made crazy things happen
He predicted the future
He could read minds

No, he couldn't/didn't.

Yeah but his costume blew and in the end was brought down by not some cruel super villian but a bunch of ordinary smucks


Thank god fiction has goten better

It was prophesied that he'd be turned on by his own people, the Jews. And seing some of the Jews today, it's no suprise.

Absolutely, though its future has looked somewhat grim as of late. Lesbian Batgirl? If she's just a token lesbian you're gonna have a lot of pissed off comic-book geeks.

Why would they be pissed off? I mean comon, Lesbians! Super girl and Bat girl action man!

It was prophesied that he'd be turned on by his own people, the Jews. And seing some of the Jews today, it's no suprise.

I honestly take offense at that. He claimed that he was a messiah and the community just saw him as a carpenter.

He could do a miracle of a job, probably.

And what about the Jews of today? Last time I checked it was the Christians persecuting the Jews.

And also, I agree with Chellis.

Why would they be pissed off? I mean comon, Lesbians! Super girl and Bat girl action man!
While as a man--a bisexual man at that--I appreciate lesbians, I would not appreciate a character just being a token lesbian. The lesbian part should just be "yaddayaddayadda all this stuff about her life--oh, and she's a lesbian" NOT a major factor.

While as a man--a bisexual man at that--I appreciate lesbians, I would not appreciate a character just being a token lesbian. The lesbian part should just be "yaddayaddayadda all this stuff about her life--oh, and she's a lesbian" NOT a major factor.

You could look at it like that, or you could look at it like it gives a gay child self confidence, and courage because one of his super heros is gay. I mean when I was growing up I loved (and still do) the X-Men. Why, because the X-Men were born with their super powers, they were born diffrent and have to struggle to get a world to accept them. I went through the same thing myself. So yea.

Plus, just think of the XXX comics.

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/image/Superman_funeral_sermon.jpg
Initially though, it seems more of a Moses thing-baby sent into another world, becomes it's strongest. But that's just reading the texts.

Wouldn't Gilgamesh be the original Superman?

You could look at it like that, or you could look at it like it gives a gay child self confidence, and courage because one of his super heros is gay. I mean when I was growing up I loved (and still do) the X-Men. Why, because the X-Men were born with their super powers, they were born diffrent and have to struggle to get a world to accept them. I went through the same thing myself. So yea.

Plus, just think of the XXX comics.
It's exactly because of that kind of thing that the lesbian bit should just be a part of the character rather than a major focus. The fact that she--a lesbian--can be accepted and loved despite her sexual orientation and be just like any other superhero will give a much more positive message than a "OH SHE'S A LESBIAN LETS MAKE HER HAVE LOTS OF RAUNCHY LESBIAN MAKEOUTS!" type of message ever will.

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/image/Superman_funeral_sermon.jpg
Initially though, it seems more of a Moses thing-baby sent into another world, becomes it's strongest. But that's just reading the texts.

Wouldn't Gilgamesh be the original Superman?
Yep, most likely. I think all the Supermen are rip-offs of Gilgamesh with maybe a few bells and whistles added now and then.

It's exactly because of that kind of thing that the lesbian bit should just be a part of the character rather than a major focus. The fact that she--a lesbian--can be accepted and loved despite her sexual orientation and be just like any other superhero will give a much more positive message than a "OH SHE'S A LESBIAN LETS MAKE HER HAVE LOTS OF RAUNCHY LESBIAN MAKEOUTS!" type of message ever will.

That I can understand, Her being a lesbian should just be one aspect of who she is. She can still be the same Bat-Girl, the only diffrence is that well, she likes girls. That way gay children can see that just because you like someone of the same sex, doesn't make you a freak or weirdo, you are still you, and all that mushy stuff.

My favorite X-Men would have to be Xavier and Wolverine.

That I can understand, Her being a lesbian should just be one aspect of who she is. She can still be the same Bat-Girl, the only diffrence is that well, she likes girls. That way gay children can see that just because you like someone of the same sex, doesn't make you a freak or weirdo, you are still you, and all that mushy stuff.

My favorite X-Men would have to be Xavier and Wolverine.
Good. I was worried for a minute there my point was explained as well as it might have been.

Anyway, I'd have to agree that Gilgamesh was the original Superman. I suspect many myths, including the Mithraism that was quoted nigh word for word as the Jesus myth, eventually just followed up on it. After all, if the Romans can copy all of the Greek gods and just rename them, surely others are similarly not above such plagerism.

Actually many of the other god men in previous legends did the EXACT same things, kid. Dionysus specifically.

Good. I was worried for a minute there my point was explained as well as it might have been.

Anyway, I'd have to agree that Gilgamesh was the original Superman. I suspect many myths, including the Mithraism that was quoted nigh word for word as the Jesus myth, eventually just followed up on it. After all, if the Romans can copy all of the Greek gods and just rename them, surely others are similarly not above such plagerism.
It makes conquering easier..."Who? Oh no, you must mean Jesus...yeah, he did all those things, you're just missing the part where you should do what we say..."

I honestly take offense at that. He claimed that he was a messiah and the community just saw him as a carpenter.

He could do a miracle of a job, probably.

And what about the Jews of today? Last time I checked it was the Christians persecuting the Jews.

And also, I agree with Chellis.

He was the messiah. The Jews waited and looked all this time for the Messiah and they ended up executing him, but then again had they not there would be no redemption for mankind, God's mercy on mankind, eternal life with him, and all the good stuff.

No, he couldn't/didn't.

Ahh yes he did.

:eek:

It makes conquering easier..."Who? Oh no, you must mean Jesus...yeah, he did all those things, you're just missing the part where you should do what we say..."
See, it's that kind of common sense thing that would never have occurred to someone who dislikes organized religion such as myself.

I nominate Herakles, after all, he went to hell and back before Jesus, and before it was cool.

I nominate Herakles, after all, he went to hell and back before Jesus, and before it was cool.
Odysseus did it too, as I recall, and around the same time. 'Course, who didn't go to the Underworld and back again in those days? It was a popular pastime as far as they were concerned.

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
He made crazy things happen
He Fasted for 40 days
He never had a biological earthly father
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
He predicted the future
He could read minds


...and you can actually claim to believe that ridiculous line of shit with a straight face?

Scientology looks almost sane by comparison.

No one has ever made an impact as much as Jesus Christ. He was a real man. EVen the greatest philosophers say that He was either "telling the truth" or is the "best liar in the world." If you think that He was lying the whole time, why lie to the point that you would suffer and die for the lie?

He truly died for us. Don't search too much and stop continuing to question and question. I encourage true study into it :-) because many strong atheists (take C.S. Lewis for an example) turn to Jesus after many years of research. (C.S. Lewis began to write a book on why Christianity was fake, but became one of the most renown Christian writers of the time).
Sometimes, man is meant to not understand things. Take humans compared to dogs. No matter how well we try to make dogs understand some things, they never do and never will. We're on the dog's level compared to God. That's why some questions such as, "If we were created by God, then who created God?" isn't answered.

No one has ever made an impact as much as Jesus Christ. He was a real man. EVen the greatest philosophers say that He was either "telling the truth" or is the "best liar in the world." If you think that He was lying the whole time, why lie to the point that you would suffer and die for the lie?

He truly died for us. Don't search too much and stop continuing to question and question. I encourage true study into it :-) because many strong atheists (take C.S. Lewis for an example) turn to Jesus after many years of research. (C.S. Lewis began to write a book on why Christianity was fake, but became one of the most renown Christian writers of the time).
Sometimes, man is meant to not understand things. Take humans compared to dogs. No matter how well we try to make dogs understand some things, they never do and never will. We're on the dog's level compared to God. That's why some questions such as, "If we were created by God, then who created God?" isn't answered.
C.S. Lewis was a two-bit hack who "converted" to make a crapload of money. Anyone who doesn't realize that is being foolish.

Furthermore, the Jesus myth(uh oh I said myth now fundies will kill me) was taken nigh word for word from Mithraism. Do some actual research, and you'll see that. Fact is, in this day and age, mankind has no need for a safety blanket like a religion anymore. We've grown up. We don't need an invisible friend to safeguard us anymore. We can stand on our own.

And no doubt as mythical as Superman as well :rolleyes:

No one has ever made an impact as much as Jesus Christ. He was a real man. EVen the greatest philosophers say that He was either "telling the truth" or is the "best liar in the world." If you think that He was lying the whole time, why lie to the point that you would suffer and die for the lie?

He truly died for us. Don't search too much and stop continuing to question and question. I encourage true study into it :-) because many strong atheists (take C.S. Lewis for an example) turn to Jesus after many years of research. (C.S. Lewis began to write a book on why Christianity was fake, but became one of the most renown Christian writers of the time).
Sometimes, man is meant to not understand things. Take humans compared to dogs. No matter how well we try to make dogs understand some things, they never do and never will. We're on the dog's level compared to God. That's why some questions such as, "If we were created by God, then who created God?" isn't answered.
Wait -- you encourage true study but you don't want us to search and question? Riiiight....

The Buddha was a real person who had a great impact on the world, too. Some people even think he had an impact on Jesus. Coulda happened. He came first, after all.

...and you can actually claim to believe that ridiculous line of shit with a straight face?

Scientology looks almost sane by comparison.

That's a big almost...

Well...

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
He made crazy things happen
He Fasted for 40 days
He never had a biological earthly father
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
He predicted the future
He could read minds




This is why I don't believe in Christianity... and the dicks like you that follow it...

That's a big almost...
HotRodia, you are jesus. And God. And I love you!!! :fluffle:

No one has ever made an impact as much as Jesus Christ.
Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Isaac Newton, Thomas Edison, Buddha, Confucious

He was a real man.
So was the Lone Ranger.

EVen the greatest philosophers say that He was either "telling the truth" or is the "best liar in the world."
...and who exactly are "the greatest philosophers"?

If you think that He was lying the whole time, why lie to the point that you would suffer and die for the lie?
Actually, I think Paul, Peter, and John did most of the lying after he was dead.

He truly died for us. Don't search too much and stop continuing to question and question. I encourage true study into it :-) Study and questioning tend to lead people away from foolish, primitive, backwards, dogmatic beliefs like Xianity.

...because many strong atheists (take C.S. Lewis for an example) turn to Jesus after many years of research. (C.S. Lewis began to write a book on why Christianity was fake, but became one of the most renown Christian writers of the time).

Well, then he was a fool as well as a hack.

Sometimes, man is meant to not understand things. Take humans compared to dogs. No matter how well we try to make dogs understand some things, they never do and never will. We're on the dog's level compared to God. That's why some questions such as, "If we were created by God, then who created God?" isn't answered.

How convenient. I suppose we should just give up all our silly efforts to use logic and experimentation to understand the universe in which we find ourselves.

HotRodia, you are jesus. And God. And I love you!!! :fluffle:

Err...thanks. I'm flattered. :)

I feel the love. :fluffle:

HotRodia, you are jesus. And God. And I love you!!! :fluffle:
You just drowned my puppy with that fluffle. Thanks a lot! :(

You just drowned my puppy with that fluffle. Thanks a lot! :(
Meh! At least you don't have to feed the little pest anymore. I did you a favour.

Meh! At least you don't have to feed the little pest anymore. I did you a favour.
...

:mad:

THAT WAS A $2000 PUPPY! YOU DID NOT DO ME A FAVOR!

...

:mad:

THAT WAS A $2000 PUPPY! YOU DID NOT DO ME A FAVOR!
Well if you wish I can make you a new puppy. With all these dead ones floating around I should be able to stich up a Frankenstein style one. And the good thing is, it will never grow too big! :)

He walked on water
So did I.. seriously, I did.
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
It's called being shot from a cannon. Has LG taught you nothing?
He turned water into wine
He had a micro brewery?
He made things out of nothing
He flipped a crack house? Oh, and, and, and.. MacGyver.
He raised the dead several times
He was really strong, huh?
He healed the sick
So do doctors.
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
Like that was an exclusive club? :rolleyes:
He made crazy things happen
He grew shroomz?
He Fasted for 40 days
So did Paris Hilton. You're comparing Jesus to Paris Hilton?
He never had a biological earthly father
His mother was a whore?
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
Two words: Smunkee's kids.
He predicted the future
Nostradamus.
He could read minds
Could not.

So did I.. seriously, I did.

It's called being shot from a cannon. Has LG taught you nothing?

He had a micro brewery?

He flipped a crack house? Oh, and, and, and.. MacGyver.

He was really strong, huh?

So do doctors.

Like that was an exclusive club? :rolleyes:

He grew shroomz?

So did Paris Hilton. You're comparing Jesus to Paris Hilton?

His mother was a whore?

Two words: Smunkee's kids.

Nostradamus.

Could not.
I love you. :fluffle:

I love you. :fluffle:
I love me too :D



:fluffle:

Superman would win in the fight.

On these forums, all it takes is one innocuous mention of Christianity and people start behaving like you killed their family.

I love me too :D



:fluffle:
You love yourself often, don't you? :rolleyes:

You love yourself often, don't you? :rolleyes:
Only when you're not here.








;)

Only when you're not here.








;)
Ssshhhh!!! Don't tell everyone! :eek:

Jesus didn't fulfil all of the OT prophecies.

"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:nation shall not life up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
(King James Verion, Isaiah 2:4)

"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:nation shall not life up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
(King James Verion, Isaiah 2:4)

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."
(KJV, Isaiah 11:9)

Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies of world peace and justice.

Linky (http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html)

Ssshhhh!!! Don't tell everyone! :eek:
Bahh, we've had the photos for a while now.

Ssshhhh!!! Don't tell everyone! :eek:
*points to Cannot think of a name*

On these forums, all it takes is one innocuous mention of Christianity and people start behaving like you killed their family.

You didn't, did you? Because I would take it amiss if you did. :p

On these forums, all it takes is one innocuous mention of Christianity and people start behaving like you killed their family.
Maybe it's not so much Christianity as it is religion in general. This forum seems to lean towards scientific athiests more than anything else.

Christians are gullible!

Christians are gullible!

Trolling statements are stupid!

Haha! Seriously, though, as a historical figure, the guy seems to have been a decent teacher, along the lines of Lao Tzu and Buddha, even Socrates, though they all preceeded him by centuries. It's wholly the fault of the Church, a political establishment after all, that the teachings have been so corrupted.

If I were the son of God...... I'd make sure I had the biggest penis ever. And you know he could do that, if he was the son of the almighty. In fact, God would probobly have insisted on it. I mean, can you imagine the sacrelige of having a penis larger than the son of God? I shudder to think.

If I were the son of God...... I'd make sure I had the biggest penis ever. And you know he could do that, if he was the son of the almighty. In fact, God would probobly have insisted on it. I mean, can you imagine the sacrelige of having a penis larger than the son of God? I shudder to think.

Oh dear. I may have committed accidental sacrilege. :(

On these forums, all it takes is one innocuous mention of Christianity and people start behaving like you killed their family.

*ahem*IRELAND*ahem*

This has got to be the most immature piece of Christian Propaganda I've seen in a while.

If you want your religion to be respectable, keep your childish ideas to yourself, for once.

Well...

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
He made crazy things happen
He Fasted for 40 days
He never had a biological earthly father
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
He predicted the future
He could read minds

And he fulfilled every single OT prophecy to a T
Seemed that his main weakness was Romans, rather than Krypton, though.

And you're right - he is the original superman - in that he's a completely fictional character, with no basis in reality.

Seemed that his main weakness was Romans, rather than Krypton, though.

And you're right - he is the original superman - in that he's a completely fictional character, with no basis in reality.



Hahahahahaha. Clever.

Yeah but his costume blew and in the end was brought down by not some cruel super villian but a bunch of ordinary smucks


Thank god fiction has goten better
Actually, he sacrificed his mortal body to save the people of the world.


and he was the first Superhero to die and comeback... and it wasn't to sell comic books either.

Well...

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
He made crazy things happen
He Fasted for 40 days
He never had a biological earthly father
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
He predicted the future
He could read minds

Prove it.

Hahahahahaha. Clever.
And quite true *nods*

You know, Jesus is a lot more interesting when you look at him as a person as opposed to a cartoon character.

Prove it.

Bible.

I'll look up everything tommorow, it's 400am Tejas time and I've done talking with my chica.

Bible.

I'll look up everything tommorow, it's 400am Tejas time and I've done talking with my chica.
The Bible?

Ahahahah. You mean that tome of fictional writing, with conflicting accounts in the Gospels, you mean?

Next week - the existance of God is gleamed from Tintin!

Yesterday's sermon - Genesis - the Dangermouse way!

The Bible?

Ahahahah. You mean that tome of fictional writing, with conflicting accounts in the Gospels, you mean?

Next week - the existance of God is gleamed from Tintin!

Yesterday's sermon - Genesis - the Dangermouse way!


GAH, HOW I ENVY THE WITTINESS!

GAH, HOW I ENVY THE WITTINESS!
I'll assume that was sarcastic.

Bible.

Doesn't prove anything i'm afraid. It's a lovely little account, but a single written text isn't quite enough to count as proof.

Bible.

I'll look up everything tommorow, it's 400am Tejas time and I've done talking with my chica.


The bible is proof of nothing.

If you wish to know why, I can gladly tell you.

On these forums, all it takes is one innocuous mention of Christianity and people start behaving like you killed their family.
Oh, had it only been innocuous...

Bible.

I'll look up everything tommorow, it's 400am Tejas time and I've done talking with my chica.
You know that there are robots from another planet around the world right? Robots that can turn into other things, like cars or planes or guns... :eek:
And it's true, too! Is it not written, that Optimus Prime is the leader of the Autobots? And that the ways of the Decepticons are the way of EBIL??

I can prove it! See? It's all written here!
*Holds up Transformer magazines*
They've even got pictures, so that must make them more true then the Bible!
http://www.ubsm.com.my/christmas2005/images/ultimate/Transformers%20The%20Ultimate%20Guide.jpg
:rolleyes:

On these forums, all it takes is one innocuous mention of Christianity and people start behaving like you killed their family.
Cheers for the commentary!

RE: Gravlen

Very funny, indeed. Much like the US Constitution: "Look, you're free; it says so right here!" A tired hoax, that's become.

No, he couldn't/didn't.

Yes he could and did.

Yes he could and did.


I betcha I can find more logic in the idea that he never did any of those things, and they were invented years after his death, than you can find evidence to prove he did.

Yes he could and did.

Another tired hoax.

I honestly take offense at that. He claimed that he was a messiah and the community just saw him as a carpenter.

I have a feeling that you are jewish?

He could do a miracle of a job, probably.

No probable about it. He did perform miracles.

And what about the Jews of today? Last time I checked it was the Christians persecuting the Jews.

And jews persecuting Christians and Muslims, and on and on.

And also, I agree with Chellis.

Figures.

Yes he could and did.
I can see right where the debate's going to go now.

Christians : He did all of those things, the Bible says so.

Everyone else : What a pile of crap.

Rinse and repeat for 80-odd pages.

No one has ever made an impact as much as Jesus Christ. He was a real man. EVen the greatest philosophers say that He was either "telling the truth" or is the "best liar in the world." If you think that He was lying the whole time, why lie to the point that you would suffer and die for the lie?

He truly died for us. Don't search too much and stop continuing to question and question. I encourage true study into it :-) because many strong atheists (take C.S. Lewis for an example) turn to Jesus after many years of research. (C.S. Lewis began to write a book on why Christianity was fake, but became one of the most renown Christian writers of the time).
Sometimes, man is meant to not understand things. Take humans compared to dogs. No matter how well we try to make dogs understand some things, they never do and never will. We're on the dog's level compared to God. That's why some questions such as, "If we were created by God, then who created God?" isn't answered.

Nice first post and an excellent job. Good job on CS Lewis. People forget that he was an athiest. Well done.

Oh and welcome to the boards :)

C.S. Lewis was a two-bit hack who "converted" to make a crapload of money. Anyone who doesn't realize that is being foolish.

Nice of you to bash one of the best authors of all time. Is that all you know how to do is bash people?

Furthermore, the Jesus myth(uh oh I said myth now fundies will kill me)

The word fundie is being used way to much. However, no. Christians will not kill you but will pray for you.

This is why I don't believe in Christianity... and the dicks like you that follow it...

You can lay off the name calling as well.

You can lay off the name calling as well.
Can, but don't really want to.

I can run in front of a bus, but it's not really that appealing.

On these forums, all it takes is one innocuous mention of Christianity and people start behaving like you killed their family.

Now ain't this the sad and sorry truth :(

Now ain't this the sad and sorry truth :(


Gee, I wonder what Christianity could have done to inspire such vitriol?

Jesus didn't fulfil all of the OT prophecies.

"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:nation shall not life up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
(King James Verion, Isaiah 2:4)

"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:nation shall not life up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
(King James Verion, Isaiah 2:4)

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."
(KJV, Isaiah 11:9)

Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies of world peace and justice.

Linky (http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html)

And this ladies and gentlemen, happens when you do not realize that this will occur when He returns to the earth. Nice try Commie Catholics.

*SNIP*
:eek: That was your first post? No rambling, no gun smilies??

You're scaring me!
:p

(Good work ;) )

This has got to be the most immature piece of Christian Propaganda I've seen in a while.

If you want your religion to be respectable, keep your childish ideas to yourself, for once.

ANd if you want to be taken seriously, you will layoff telling other people what to do.

And this ladies and gentlemen, happens when you do not realize that this will occur when He returns to the earth. Nice try Commie Catholics.


Yes..and when exactly is that going to be?

Oh thats right..we dont know.

Not today....not tomorrow, or next year, or next century, or even the next millenia.....but SOON!

Right.

Maybe he'll bring the Easter Bunny with him.

Alan Watts makes an excellent point about this: in any of these Jesus-was-God arguments, the judge and the advocate are necessarily the same person. In terms of evaluating the logic of such an argument, would you want to be a defendant in a court where the judge is also the prosecutor? Pro-christian arguments thus have no logical defense.

Watts, btw, was an Anglican minister and theologian: the foremost western authority on world religions in his lifetime. He said he believes Jesus did exist, and that he was a standard human in all respects except that he was spiritually gifted like Buddha. Watts said he'd even grant the miracles because in societies like India, Christ-like healers and miracles are plentiful in their history. The major difference between the Hindus and X-ians is simply that the Hindus never forgot that the innumerable stories in their religion are metaphors.

PS. Since Christian is such a dirty word, I propose "X-ian", to protect our eyes and ears from such filth.

The Bible?

Ahahahah. You mean that tome of fictional writing, with conflicting accounts in the Gospels, you mean?

Next week - the existance of God is gleamed from Tintin!

Yesterday's sermon - Genesis - the Dangermouse way!

Stop with the insults and lets have an actual discussion if at all possible.

Doesn't prove anything i'm afraid. It's a lovely little account, but a single written text isn't quite enough to count as proof.

Actually, it is more than a single written text.

Stop with the insults and lets have an actual discussion if at all possible.


I believe he is saying that the bible is nothing more than a work of fiction, becuase NON-Fiction, can be proven.

Another tired hoax.

Why? Instead of saying something like this, perhaps you care to explain?

I can see right where the debate's going to go now.

Christians : He did all of those things, the Bible says so.

Everyone else : What a pile of crap.

Rinse and repeat for 80-odd pages.

So I take it you do not want to have an honest discussion but instead bash all christians? Is that it?

Gee, I wonder what Christianity could have done to inspire such vitriol?

:rolleyes:

Im trying to debate you, you keep ignoring me.

/shrug.

And this ladies and gentlemen, happens when you do not realize that this will occur when He returns to the earth. Nice try Commie Catholics.


And that, you great tit, is when he will have fulfilled all of the prophecies. But until then, he hasn't done it, which was my point. Thank you for an extremely irrelevant relpy. :headbang:

Yes..and when exactly is that going to be?

Oh thats right..we dont know.

Indeed we do not know. When he comes, it'll suprise everyone including christians. That is why we must be ready for his return.

Not today....not tomorrow, or next year, or next century, or even the next millenia.....but SOON!

You do you know it won't be next year or the next centruy? You don't. He could come later this year. You never can tell.

Why? Instead of saying something like this, perhaps you care to explain?

Like the story from Harley lore goes:

If I have to explain to you why I ride a motorcycle, you wouldn't understand.

Im trying to debate you, you keep ignoring me.

/shrug.

That's because you are making quips. I'm sorry but in a debate, I do not respond to quips.

And that, you great tit, is when he will have fulfilled all of the prophecies. But until then, he hasn't done it, which was my point. Thank you for an extremely irrelevant relpy. :headbang:

Actually it isn't irrelevent for they are two very different events.

Like the story from Harley lore goes:

If I have to explain to you why I ride a motorcycle, you wouldn't understand.

So much for debate. If ya excuse me, I"m going to go for now.

Indeed we do not know. When he comes, it'll suprise everyone including christians. That is why we must be ready for his return.

It is my contention that you (as a christian) are wasting valuable time preparing for something that will never happen, and dream of a paradise in the sky, when you should work to make this world better.



You do you know it won't be next year or the next centruy? You don't. He could come later this year. You never can tell.

Hes not coming at all, im afraid.

So much for debate. If ya excuse me, I"m going to go for now.

Yes, please. Stop spamming the forum and stick your shithead back up your ass.

That's because you are making quips. I'm sorry but in a debate, I do not respond to quips.


Quips perhaps, but always with a grain of truth.

For instance, you mentioned seeing hostilty in the posts, when the mention of Christianity....I responded, "Well I wonder why".

Obviously, Im reffering to the horrible deeds of the church, the wars, the killings, the child rapings, etc...

How can you be surprised when people get angy at the mention of an organization that is responsible for the worst crimes in history?

PS. Since Christian is such a dirty word, I propose "X-ian", to protect our eyes and ears from such filth.

The letter 'X' comes from the Greek letter 'Chi', which transliterates to 'Ch' in English. It is the first letter of 'Christ' in Greek: Xpistos.

You fail at trolling.

Actually it isn't irrelevent for they are two very different events.


The original post said he HAS fulfilled ALL prophecies. I pointed out that Jesus has not currently fulfilled 2 prophecies. We are talking about the current point in time. Whether you think he will come back and fulfil the other two is irrelevant because it is a future event.

-snip-

3,066 of my braincells committed suicide while reading this.

So much for debate. If ya excuse me, I"m going to go for now.


This coming from you who regularly answers by reasserting their original proposition or using a 'rolleyes' smiley instead of actually explaining anything. There it is everyone: A hypocrite.:rolleyes:

The letter 'X' comes from the Greek letter 'Chi', which transliterates to 'Ch' in English. It is the first letter of 'Christ' in Greek: Xpistos.

You fail at trolling.

Trolling? I'm not even sure exactly what that means.. :(

I'm just tired of hearing Jesus' name desicrated by the Church with its lies (and aforementioned crimes).

The original post said he HAS fulfilled ALL prophecies. I pointed out that Jesus has not currently fulfilled 2 prophecies. We are talking about the current point in time. Whether you think he will come back and fulfil the other two is irrelevant because it is a future event.

All the prophecies about him coming he has fullfilled. His 2nd coming prophecies (Isaiha, Thessalonians, ect) are a different set of prophecies. You do understand that right?

Yes, please. Stop spamming the forum and stick your shithead back up your ass.

You can stop with the trolling and the flaming and the insults at anytime.

Now I'm off.

It is my contention that you (as a christian) are wasting valuable time preparing for something that will never happen, and dream of a paradise in the sky, when you should work to make this world better.

Who says I am not trying to make this world better? Why do you think I"m getting an education? I'm going to do what I can to make this world better.

Hes not coming at all, im afraid.

Oh he'll return.

Trolling? I'm not even sure exactly what that means.. :(

I'm just tired of hearing Jesus' name desicrated by the Church with its lies (and aforementioned crimes).

Trolling is the equivalent of making a personal attack on an entire group. By saying 'Since Christian is such a dirty word, I propose "X-ian", to protect our eyes and ears from such filth' you were trolling.

It was prophesied that he'd be turned on by his own people, the Jews. And seing some of the Jews today, it's no suprise.

1. According to Christian doctrine, every one of us is part of "his own people" (Ps 100, for example).
2. Paul confirms this when he says to the church in Rome that we all have gone our own way and turned from God (Rom 3 in particular, but the theme underlies the whole letter).
3. Paul also states that God isn't finished with the Jewish people (Rom. 9-11).

It's shameful to hear anyone seriously talk as if the Jews were any more guilty than the rest of us of rejecting Christ. For one thing, it's unChristian and borders on blasphemy; for another, it's just plain wrong. If we'd been in their place we'd have done the same thing.

To finish, apparently a fellow named "Ewer" wrote:
"How odd
of God
to choose
the Jews"

The reply (variously attributed to Disraeli and Cecil Browne) came back:
"But not as odd
as those who choose
the Jewish God
but spurn* the Jews".

---------
* Sometimes quoted as "hate".

Trolling is the equivalent of making a personal attack on an entire group. By saying 'Since Christian is such a dirty word, I propose "X-ian", to protect our eyes and ears from such filth' you were trolling.

Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification. As for my opinion, I think it's already clear. :D

All the prophecies about him coming he has fullfilled. His 2nd coming prophecies (Isaiha, Thessalonians, ect) are a different set of prophecies. You do understand that right?


If you're ever going to make a relevant point you'd better do it fast.

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
He made crazy things happen
He Fasted for 40 days
He never had a biological earthly father
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
He predicted the future
He could read minds


I can explain all of them
He walk through water only a couple of inches deep, he just told everyone the waters really dirty
He was using CGI, serious it never said he could fly
He just had white wine and everyone was so pissed at the end they believed that he turned water into wine
He was a very good magician, u see magicians doing it all the time today, but its all about trick of the eye and slight of hand
He raised dead? He was a grave robber who then made the corpse dance using puppet strings
He was also a doctor with access to many presnet day medicines
He was nailed to a couple of planks of wood, put in a cave and somone stole his body, either that or went on one hell of bender and woke thinking, "oh not again guys, why do u always shut in a cave???"
He got everyone badly stoned (as in drugs)
He dad did his mom on a 1 night stand and got her pregnant and he ran off
He fasted for 40 days, so did David Blaine, and i he was alone how do we know he didnt just have a secret stash of food
I dont understand this one
He predicted the future, so has nostredamus
He could read minds? he just did it yori gellar style "I knew you were gonna say that"

See all easily explained.

So I take it you do not want to have an honest discussion but instead bash all christians? Is that it?
Well in my opinion the Bible is utter crap, and Jesus was not real, nor did he do any miracles and such.

If you can that bashing, then yeah.

1. According to Christian doctrine, every one of us is part of "his own people" (Ps 100, for example).
2. Paul confirms this when he says to the church in Rome that we all have gone our own way and turned from God (Rom 3 in particular, but the theme underlies the whole letter).
3. Paul also states that God isn't finished with the Jewish people (Rom. 9-11).

It's shameful to hear anyone seriously talk as if the Jews were any more guilty than the rest of us of rejecting Christ. For one thing, it's unChristian and borders on blasphemy; for another, it's just plain wrong. If we'd been in their place we'd have done the same thing.

To finish, apparently a fellow named "Ewer" wrote:
"How odd
of God
to choose
the Jews"

The reply (variously attributed to Disraeli and Cecil Browne) came back:
"But not as odd
as those who choose
the Jewish God
but spurn* the Jews".

---------
* Sometimes quoted as "hate".
I totally agree. Sorry for quoting so much just to point out that I agree. We wouldn't have done any better; Jews and Gentiles alike are under sin.

I can explain all of them
He walk through water only a couple of inches deep, he just told everyone the waters really dirty
Well, the disciples were crossing the lake in a boat at the same time, so it couldn't have been a couple of inches deep. Moreover, Peter tried to walk on the same water, but began to sink for lack of faith.
He was using CGI, serious it never said he could fly
I can't find that either; however, he will come down on the clouds of heaven, so you could count that as flying.
He just had white wine and everyone was so pissed at the end they believed that he turned water into wine
Jesus' mother Mary and the servants, and the master of the feast, are mentioned as witnesses. These are all people who would have been required to be sober.
He was a very good magician, u see magicians doing it all the time today, but its all about trick of the eye and slight of hand
And that's how he healed serious diseases? Er, somehow I don't think so. He fed five thousand people from just a few loaves - where's the secret stash?
He raised dead? He was a grave robber who then made the corpse dance using puppet strings
Which is why Lazarus left his tomb at Jesus just calling out his name and was, visibly to everyone, perfectly alive again...
He was also a doctor with access to many presnet day medicines
He healed people with a word, or a touch, or both. What present-day doctor does that?
He was nailed to a couple of planks of wood, put in a cave and somone stole his body, either that or went on one hell of bender and woke thinking, "oh not again guys, why do u always shut in a cave???"
He clearly died on the cross; Roman executioners weren't that amateurish. They were good at killing people. As for the disciples stealing his body, it's kind of surprising that they would leave their homes, face persecution, flogging, beating, imprisonment and execution for the sake of a lie.
He got everyone badly stoned (as in drugs)
That takes a lot of pot - five thousand people at a time...
He dad did his mom on a 1 night stand and got her pregnant and he ran off
Both his mother and his "father" (Joseph) apparently thought otherwise. Mary was surprised to be told she was pregnant, because she had never slept with anyone. Joseph was intending to divorce her because of the shame, but was told otherwise by an angel. He didn't run off.
He fasted for 40 days, so did David Blaine, and i he was alone how do we know he didnt just have a secret stash of food
In the desert? Which wouldn't go bad or be eaten by animals? And what about water?
He predicted the future, so has nostredamus
That's an irrelevant point. The Old Testament prophets predicted the future too. His accurate predictions, however, prove that he was sent by God.
He could read minds? he just did it yori gellar style "I knew you were gonna say that"
And that's how he managed to tell a woman he had just met five minutes ago, "You have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband"? That's pretty extraordinary, wouldn't you agree?
See all easily explained
See, in the light of those "explanations" it's actually more plausible that the miracles did happen...
What I said is pretty much all in the Bible, by the way.

Well...

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
He made crazy things happen
He Fasted for 40 days
He never had a biological earthly father
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
He predicted the future
He could read minds

And he fulfilled every single OT prophecy to a T

Songs have been written about him-This one is Original Superman, by pillar.

He heals the sick He saves the lost
and died for you in case you've forgot, man
He'll jump a building in a single bound
I once was lost but now I'm found
He needs no mask or cape or gown
all He needs is His holy crown
it's time for you to understand Jesus Christ the Original Superman
He'll be your hero in the end. He is that one true superfriend

Chorus

Kryptonite can't slow him down nothin' can at all
He's always there for you. He'll pick you up if you should fall

He came to earth in the flesh and
Performing miracles and died for man
A forty day fast is more than I could take
he did it for you and he did it for my sake
Ye of little faith he said to them raised his hand and all was calm again
It's time for you to understand
Jesus Christ the Original Superman

up up and away He's saving souls in a new way
Just like Superman was there He's always there to save the day
he works through all of us
Through Him we have the power
It's time to unify so we can constantly devour
The devil and all of his games we need not be ashamed
Of anything we can do that we can glorify His name
Many names he has been given
Prince of Peace Son of Man
Here's one more for his list.
the Original Superman

And one of my favorites, All for you by Jonah33. It covers the last few hours before Christ's crucifiction on the cross.

His time with them had stopped,
It's time for Him to carry out His father's will,
Is that He drink this cup
He's told them all along that He would go,
They could not follow Him
But He'll be back for them my friend

And now He sweats these drops of blood
And He prays take this cup from me
But He knows there's no other way
His father's will is that He take your sin, your shame,
Your place upon that cross of pain And die for you


There's no way to repay
All the pain He went through for you
His reason: simply His love
It's time to see the truth
And understand there's nothing you can do
His reason was simply you

It was all for, it was all for you
He bled and He died for you

We live by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ
Who died to set us free
From chains our flesh can give
You know that even if you were the only one He died for
That means only your sins drove the nails

No time to hesitate my friend
No time to second guess His love
There's nothing else that you can do
He already gave it all for you
All for you, all for you, all for you
Simply you
search

There's a ton more, but there are evI'm Christian myself, but seriously, can you prove that Jesus did all these things?

It was prophesied that he'd be turned on by his own people, the Jews. And seing some of the Jews today, it's no suprise.
Oh yeah, and piss off about that. Seeing some Christians today, I'd say Jesus might've died for nothing.

Oh yeah, and piss off about that. Seeing some Christians today, I'd say Jesus might've died for nothing.
He didn't, thankfully.

I'm Christian myself, but seriously, can you prove that Jesus did all these things?
I'd say that all of this is in the Bible, though some of it is somewhat poetic, of course.

I'd say that all of this is in the Bible, though some of it is somewhat poetic, of course.
Look, my friend, I believe that stuff (well at least the new Testament, the Old Testament and I aren't exactly on speaking terms), but the Bible cannot be used as irrevocable proof of anything. The whole point of faith is to deny doubt. You can't use the Bible to get rid of doubt.

Look, my friend, I believe that stuff (well at least the new Testament, the Old Testament and I aren't exactly on speaking terms), but the Bible cannot be used as irrevocable proof of anything. The whole point of faith is to deny doubt. You can't use the Bible to get rid of doubt.
OK, all I'm saying is that the Bible is the basis of Christian faith. We can't find Jesus and all he did by thinking very hard; we can find him by reading the Bible. All the same, of course, saying "It's in the Bible, shut up now" is a tiny bit obscurantist. I would, however, argue (and I'm anticipating a huge controversy) that the New Testament is a collection of very reliable documents. So considering the documentary evidence, I'd say that yes, it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

OK, all I'm saying is that the Bible is the basis of Christian faith. We can't find Jesus and all he did by thinking very hard; we can find him by reading the Bible. All the same, of course, saying "It's in the Bible, shut up now" is a tiny bit obscurantist. I would, however, argue (and I'm anticipating a huge controversy) that the New Testament is a collection of very reliable documents. So considering the documentary evidence, I'd say that yes, it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt.I see the New Testament as a much more reliable source than the Old Testament. It seems as if we agree there.

I see the New Testament as a much more reliable source than the Old Testament. It seems as if we agree there.
Cool. But why do you think the OT isn't reliable?

Cool. But why do you think the OT isn't reliable?
Because I believe in evolution, and most of that stuff doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I also believe in gay rights. Most of the OT is a metaphor, in my opinion.

Both Jesus and Superman make for boring reads.

*y-a-w-n-s*

Because I believe in evolution, and most of that stuff doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I also believe in gay rights. Most of the OT is a metaphor, in my opinion.
OK; the NT, however, also condemns homosexuality. Moreover, most of the OT is actually Israel's history, which is hardly metaphorical. Personally, I'm certain that OT history is to be taken literally from Nahor and Abraham onwards. I'm not sure about evolution/creation.

Both Jesus and Superman make for boring reads.

*y-a-w-n-s*
Both Jesus and Superman are thrilling! :D Though Jesus is more so.

Both Jesus and Superman are thrilling! :D Though Jesus is more so.
What, with his mutant ability to multiply bread? It's all non-stop thrills a minute, this Mr. Christ of Nazareth...

*z-z-z-z*

OK; the NT, however, also condemns homosexuality. Moreover, most of the OT is actually Israel's history, which is hardly metaphorical. Personally, I'm certain that OT history is to be taken literally from Nahor and Abraham onwards. I'm not sure about evolution/creation.
Most of that part, yes, but you also should note that there is no evidence that the Jews were ever in Egypt.

Also, I really don't care if it condemns homosexuality. Even if it is a sin, so are numerous other things. In the grand scheme of things, how bad can it be?

What, with his mutant ability to multiply bread? It's all non-stop thrills a minute, this Mr. Christ of Nazareth...

*z-z-z-z*
Well, I kind of find that exciting... I must be very easily impressed. No, I was kind of referring to him rising from the dead, saving millions and holding all authority in heaven and on earth... not a bad career for a carpenter. That I find thrilling.

Most of that part, yes, but you also should note that there is no evidence that the Jews were ever in Egypt.
Well, the Torah, the five books supposedly written by Moses, tells us so. Moses himself came from Egypt. I guess it counts as evidence. I mean, it's very hard to dismiss that as mythology. David, living perhaps 200 years (?) after Moses, constantly refers to the Exodus. I guess an event and heritage that is so crucial and defining doesn't just get made up.
Also, I really don't care if it condemns homosexuality. Even if it is a sin, so are numerous other things. In the grand scheme of things, how bad can it be?
Sure lots of things are sinful, but shrugging and living on as we like isn't the solution. We're called to fight sin in our lives.

Well, the Torah, the five books supposedly written by Moses, tells us so. Moses himself came from Egypt. I guess it counts as evidence. I mean, it's very hard to dismiss that as mythology. David, living perhaps 200 years (?) after Moses, constantly refers to the Exodus. I guess an event and heritage that is so crucial and defining doesn't just get made up.

Sure lots of things are sinful, but shrugging and living on as we like isn't the solution. We're called to fight sin in our lives.
I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. Sue me.

I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. Sue me.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, you know. But I do believe that a sincere and honest analysis of the Bible will yield the result that homosexuality is indeed a sin. Please disprove me from the Bible, sola scriptura.

And what about the Jews of today? Last time I checked it was the Christians persecuting the Jews.

Probably gonna sound like a muslim-hater now (which I'm not), but last time I checked, it was the muslims persecuting the jews.

Probably gonna sound like a muslim-hater now (which I'm not), but last time I checked, it was the muslims persecuting the jews.
I'm inclined to agree, though I would replace "persecution" with "hostility". In fact, Christian persecution of Jews has long ceased, and a number of Christians have in fact saved Jews from persecution, e.g. Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

EDIT: I just realised I shouldn't be talking about "the" Jews, Christians, and Muslims. People are different. Not all Jews persecuted Christians in the first century, not all Christians persecuted Jews in the Middle Ages, and not all Muslims dislike Jews nowadays.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, you know. But I do believe that a sincere and honest analysis of the Bible will yield the result that homosexuality is indeed a sin. Please disprove me from the Bible, sola scriptura.

Speaking from a fairly impartial position (being an atheist) I'd say that the Bible never unambigously condemns homosexuality.

Speaking from a fairly impartial position (being an atheist) I'd say that the Bible never unambigously condemns homosexuality.
I realise that there have been thousands of threads on this issue, but I do believe that Leviticus and Romans both condemn homosexuality; moreover, in Genesis 2 God creates marriage as a lifelong, exclusive union between one man and one woman.
That's what I think, but I don't want to go off on a tangent of controversy.

I'm inclined to agree, though I would replace "persecution" with "hostility". In fact, Christian persecution of Jews has long ceased, and a number of Christians have in fact saved Jews from persecution, e.g. Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

EDIT: I just realised I shouldn't be talking about "the" Jews, Christians, and Muslims. People are different. Not all Jews persecuted Christians in the first century, not all Christians persecuted Jews in the Middle Ages, and not all Muslims dislike Jews nowadays.
Yay! Good on ya! :p
You win the Gravlen Avard for Disclaimers to avoid Sweeping Generalisations.

And you get a fluffle: :fluffle:

Yay! Good on ya! :p
You win the Gravlen Avard for Disclaimers to avoid Sweeping Generalisations.

And you get a fluffle: :fluffle:
Thanks :)

I realise that there have been thousands of threads on this issue, but I do believe that Leviticus and Romans both condemn homosexuality; moreover, in Genesis 2 God creates marriage as a lifelong, exclusive union between one man and one woman.
That's what I think, but I don't want to go off on a tangent of controversy.

Genesis does show support for a union between man and woman but it doesn't exclude homosexual relationships. I don't want to highjack the thread either so I'll leave it at that.

It's funny, because I always kind of felt the same way about the Christian God as I do about Superman; fun for a little while, but not a very compelling or interesting character in the long run. They kind of have a childish feel to them, a slavish over-statement that robs them of significance.

"MY superhero is INDESTRUCTIBLE! And he can fly faster than a bullet! And he is so strong he can smash a train! And you can't shoot him, because it would just bounce right off! He's the most powerful guy ever!"

"Oh yeah? Well, my superhero created everything everywhere! And he can do anything he wants, whenever he wants, and nobody can ever stop him! And he knows everything and is perfect! Plus, he's my best friend, and when I die I am going to go live with him in his magical fortress!"

It's funny, because I always kind of felt the same way about the Christian God as I do about Superman; fun for a little while, but not a very compelling or interesting character in the long run. They kind of have a childish feel to them, a slavish over-statement that robs them of significance.

"MY superhero is INDESTRUCTIBLE! And he can fly faster than a bullet! And he is so strong he can smash a train! And you can't shoot him, because it would just bounce right off! He's the most powerful guy ever!"

"Oh yeah? Well, my superhero created everything everywhere! And he can do anything he wants, whenever he wants, and nobody can ever stop him! And he knows everything and is perfect! Plus, he's my best friend, and when I die I am going to go live with him in his magical fortress!"
I've never heard of a showdown between God and Superman. That wouldn't be fun either, because it would be over in a second. (Hint: The winner is God.)
Actually the Christian God isn't that much fun at all as a superhero. I mean, the Nordic pagan gods, like Thor, Odin and Tyr, they are fun. They have their vices, and big drunken parties, and slaughters of giants, and cool gimmicks (boomerang hammer/eight-legged horse/raven messengers). However, God isn't a great superhero simply because he can do anything, anywhere, anytime, without the slightest effort. There's just no challenge for him.
That said, I find the portrayal of Jesus as a superhero interesting. By the way, whilst Superman is fiction, God is reality; that's what follows from the Bible, anyway.

Well...

He walked on water
He flew through the air WITHOUT strings attached
He turned water into wine
He made things out of nothing
He raised the dead several times
He healed the sick
He was brutally executed by the roman state, then rose again.
He made crazy things happen
He Fasted for 40 days
He never had a biological earthly father
He knew more at 12 than most of the pharisees of his day
He predicted the future
He could read minds

And he fulfilled every single OT prophecy to a T

Songs have been written about him-This one is Original Superman, by pillar.

He heals the sick He saves the lost
and died for you in case you've forgot, man
He'll jump a building in a single bound
I once was lost but now I'm found
He needs no mask or cape or gown
all He needs is His holy crown
it's time for you to understand Jesus Christ the Original Superman
He'll be your hero in the end. He is that one true superfriend

Chorus

Kryptonite can't slow him down nothin' can at all
He's always there for you. He'll pick you up if you should fall

He came to earth in the flesh and
Performing miracles and died for man
A forty day fast is more than I could take
he did it for you and he did it for my sake
Ye of little faith he said to them raised his hand and all was calm again
It's time for you to understand
Jesus Christ the Original Superman

up up and away He's saving souls in a new way
Just like Superman was there He's always there to save the day
he works through all of us
Through Him we have the power
It's time to unify so we can constantly devour
The devil and all of his games we need not be ashamed
Of anything we can do that we can glorify His name
Many names he has been given
Prince of Peace Son of Man
Here's one more for his list.
the Original Superman
That's a pretty cool take on Jesus, and it seems like an amazing song. What CD is it on?

It was prophesied that he'd be turned on by his own people, the Jews. And seing some of the Jews today, it's no suprise.


Fuck you.

Fuck you.

I agree.

I've never heard of a showdown between God and Superman. That wouldn't be fun either, because it would be over in a second. (Hint: The winner is God.)

Nah, I bet it would be like that comic where they had Superman and the Flash race around the world...they'd find some bullshit way to make it so that both of them are the winner.


Actually the Christian God isn't that much fun at all as a superhero. I mean, the Nordic pagan gods, like Thor, Odin and Tyr, they are fun. They have their vices, and big drunken parties, and slaughters of giants, and cool gimmicks (boomerang hammer/eight-legged horse/raven messengers). However, God isn't a great superhero simply because he can do anything, anywhere, anytime, without the slightest effort. There's just no challenge for him.

Yeah, same as with Superman. When you're indestructible, it doesn't take any bravery to be a "hero." It doesn't take much courage to stand up against oppression when oppression can't fucking touch you because you have lazer beam eyes.

Likewise, with God, I don't see why people pretend to be impressed with God's "miracles." He's GOD, you saps. He can do ANYTHING. It's not impressive when He turns water into wine or cures some kid's cancer, because He can do ANYTHING HE WANTS. Applauding God's miracles is like being impressed that Superman can open his own mail.


That said, I find the portrayal of Jesus as a superhero interesting.

Meh, it's just a recycled version of the story of Horus. Nobody would pat me on the back if I wrote a comicbook about a superhero called "Superbat" who fought crime in "Rotham City" using an arsenal of supergizmos furnished by his billionaire alter-ego "Brent Payne."


By the way, whilst Superman is fiction, God is reality; that's what follows from the Bible, anyway.
Yeah, and Jesus is fiction while Shiva is reality; that's what the Hindus tell me, anyway.

Fuck you.
He's half right. Jesus was rejected by his own people (as the OT said). But we would all have done the same in the Jews' place; in fact, we are equally guilty of rejecting the Son of God. However, Jews have suffered a lot of persecution from Christians. Nonetheless, it is true to say that a lot of Jews still reject Jesus.

Nah, I bet it would be like that comic where they had Superman and the Flash race around the world...they'd find some bullshit way to make it so that both of them are the winner.
Not really. It's kind of unequal. I mean, Superman has got one weakness - kryptonite - and he isn't invincible, whereas God is.
Yeah, same as with Superman. When you're indestructible, it doesn't take any bravery to be a "hero." It doesn't take much courage to stand up against oppression when oppression can't fucking touch you because you have lazer beam eyes.

Likewise, with God, I don't see why people pretend to be impressed with God's "miracles." He's GOD, you saps. He can do ANYTHING. It's not impressive when He turns water into wine or cures some kid's cancer, because He can do ANYTHING HE WANTS. Applauding God's miracles is like being impressed that Superman can open his own mail.
It's cool that you obviously think that Jesus is God, since you are calling his miracles God's miracles. All the same, in a way even amazing miracles like the resurrection was to be expected. Nonetheless, I guess even your initial reaction to amazing miracles performed in your presence wouldn't be, "Ah well, it's God... yawn". I guess you'd be mightily impressed. On the other hand, Jesus actually used miracles to prove his deity, so they had a purpose.
Meh, it's just a recycled version of the story of Horus. Nobody would pat me on the back if I wrote a comicbook about a superhero called "Superbat" who fought crime in "Rotham City" using an arsenal of supergizmos furnished by his billionaire alter-ego "Brent Payne."
I think you may be ignoring the Jewish context of Jesus of Nazareth, as well as the fact that he's not some mythological character, but one who was really experienced by first-century people who listened and talked to him and later wrote down what he said and did.
Yeah, and Jesus is fiction while Shiva is reality; that's what the Hindus tell me, anyway
The Gospels are historical documents.

Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Isaac Newton, Thomas Edison, Buddha, Confucious


So was the Lone Ranger.


...and who exactly are "the greatest philosophers"?


Actually, I think Paul, Peter, and John did most of the lying after he was dead.

Study and questioning tend to lead people away from foolish, primitive, backwards, dogmatic beliefs like Xianity.



Well, then he was a fool as well as a hack.



How convenient. I suppose we should just give up all our silly efforts to use logic and experimentation to understand the universe in which we find ourselves.

*applauds*

oh, and for those who believe the Jews crucified Jesus, I'd like to remind them that Pontius Pilate was ROMAN.

Sure lots of things are sinful, but shrugging and living on as we like isn't the solution. We're called to fight sin in our lives.
I think it's really a question of priorities.

As an example, I happen to believe that the wearing of capri pants is an abomination. It's sick, it's twisted, and it's just plain wrong. However, I'm forced to admit that there are a few problems in the world that are more pressing than the issue of capri pants. Like, you know, people starving to death, women getting the crap oppressed out of them, racial tensions igniting discord all over the world, religious superstition being used as a justification for reckless and violent behavior, little kids not getting the medicine they need, lack of health care and education...

You get the idea.

I would think that fighting sin would work in a similar way. I'm sure that God would understand that human beings are finite and limited creatures (seeing as how He created us that way), and He will understand that you can't personally fight every single form of sin in the world at the same time. He will understand if you pick your battles. I would even venture to guess that He would approve of you showing a good sense of priorities when you choose the sins you combat.

So, in the grand scheme of things, where do you think consentual, loving, homosexual relationships rank? Do you think it's more important for you to expend energy opposing the stability of loving gay relationships, or do you think maybe you should spend more energy worrying about domestic violence within heterosexual relationships (which is the leading killer of pregnant women in America)? Do you think adult male gay couples need to be your focus, or are you more concerned with men who rape children? Do you think that preventing gays from giving stability to their kids is important, or are you more interested in ensuring that the millions of kids in the foster care system get safe and loving homes?

Pick your battles. If it helps, ask yourself who Jesus would worry about first.

No Heat Vision = No Superman.

Not really. It's kind of unequal. I mean, Superman has got one weakness - kryptonite - and he isn't invincible, whereas God is.

Yes, but my point was that the Christian God is lame for the same reasons as Superman, only more so because the Christian God is even more slavishly super-powered.


It's cool that you obviously think that Jesus is God, since you are calling his miracles God's miracles.

I don't think Jesus is God, or that God performs miracles at all, I'm just talking about what the believers tell me about their own perceptions.


All the same, in a way even amazing miracles like the resurrection was to be expected. Nonetheless, I guess even your initial reaction to amazing miracles performed in your presence wouldn't be, "Ah well, it's God... yawn". I guess you'd be mightily impressed.

I would only be impressed because I don't believe in the supernatural. If I believed in an all-powerful God, nothing would ever surprise or impress me.


On the other hand, Jesus actually used miracles to prove his deity, so they had a purpose.

Yeah, like how David Copperfield proves his divinity by making the Statue of Liberty disappear. I love that guy.


I think you may be ignoring the Jewish context of Jesus of Nazareth, as well as the fact that he's not some mythological character, but one who was really experienced by first-century people who listened and talked to him and later wrote down what he said and did.

And their stories just magically happen to match up with an identical story about a guy named Horus from several thousand years earlier. But THOSE stories were myths, while the Jesus ones are true.


The Gospels are historical documents.
So's the Bhagavad Gita. What's your point?

I think it's really a question of priorities.

As an example, I happen to believe that the wearing of capri pants is an abomination. It's sick, it's twisted, and it's just plain wrong. However, I'm forced to admit that there are a few problems in the world that are more pressing than the issue of capri pants. Like, you know, people starving to death, women getting the crap oppressed out of them, racial tensions igniting discord all over the world, religious superstition being used as a justification for reckless and violent behavior, little kids not getting the medicine they need, lack of health care and education...

You get the idea.

I would think that fighting sin would work in a similar way. I'm sure that God would understand that human beings are finite and limited creatures (seeing as how He created us that way), and He will understand that you can't personally fight every single form of sin in the world at the same time. He will understand if you pick your battles. I would even venture to guess that He would approve of you showing a good sense of priorities when you choose the sins you combat.

So, in the grand scheme of things, where do you think consentual, loving, homosexual relationships rank? Do you think it's more important for you to expend energy opposing the stability of loving gay relationships, or do you think maybe you should spend more energy worrying about domestic violence within heterosexual relationships (which is the leading killer of pregnant women in America)? Do you think adult male gay couples need to be your focus, or are you more concerned with men who rape children? Do you think that preventing gays from giving stability to their kids is important, or are you more interested in ensuring that the millions of kids in the foster care system get safe and loving homes?

Pick your battles. If it helps, ask yourself who Jesus would worry about first.
I think you misunderstood me. I meant that Christians are called to fight sin - all sorts of sin - in their own lives, i.e. sin within ourselves. For example, we are naturally selfish; but we are told to strive hard, with the Holy Spirit's help, to become unselfish. I personally think that we should undertake every effort to do something against the many injustices and inequalities you mention. Otherwise, we would be disobeying Jesus. I personally disagree with homosexuality, but I don't think that homosexuality should be illegal or anything.

He's half right. Jesus was rejected by his own people (as the OT said). But we would all have done the same in the Jews' place; in fact, we are equally guilty of rejecting the Son of God. However, Jews have suffered a lot of persecution from Christians. Nonetheless, it is true to say that a lot of Jews still reject Jesus.

Newsflash: There was no Jesus. There is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. Not one shred of it outside the Bible. Talking about Jesus as a real person is the same as talking about Harry Potter as a real person.

It's insane.

All "proof" of the existence, from the shroud of tourin to the famed ossuary, has been completely debunked as fakes or wrong.

You can't reject what never existed.

Yes, but my point was that the Christian God is lame for the same reasons as Superman, only more so because the Christian God is even more slavishly super-powered.
Er, a fictional superhero is kind of different from the notion of monotheism inasmuch as the kind of being we're talking about is a nonphysical being outside of time who created the universe and rules and controls it. What do you mean by "lame"? Boring? Not true?
I would only be impressed because I don't believe in the supernatural. If I believed in an all-powerful God, nothing would ever surprise or impress me.
My faith isn't so great that I'm never surprised. My view of God is usually far too small. But you're right; if I truly believed with my whole heart in God Almighty then I wouldn't be surprised at anything.
Yeah, like how David Copperfield proves his divinity by making the Statue of Liberty disappear. I love that guy.
He did? Did he also happen to raise a few people from the dead, or get himself killed and rise again? Now that'd be cool, you've got to admit.
And their stories just magically happen to match up with an identical story about a guy named Horus from several thousand years earlier. But THOSE stories were myths, while the Jesus ones are true.
How do they match up? Quote stories and source, please. I've heard the Horus thing before, but I've never been given any evidence. And I think you're continuing to ignore my point that the Jesus stories are told by eyewitnesses and are firmly rooted in the context of first-century Jewish society.
So's the Bhagavad Gita. What's your point?
I think that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts/based on eyewitness accounts that meet extremely high standards of consistency and accuracy.

Newsflash: There was no Jesus. There is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. Not one shred of it outside the Bible. Talking about Jesus as a real person is the same as talking about Harry Potter as a real person.

It's insane.

All "proof" of the existence, from the shroud of tourin to the famed ossuary, has been completely debunked as fakes or wrong.

You can't reject what never existed.
Whilst hating to cite the gnostic Gospels, but those few dozen documents would count as evidence outside the Bible, wouldn't they? And what about Josephus, Tacitus etc.?
Also, you may be falling into a trap by pointing out the "outside the Bible" bit. The biblical Gospels are clearly evidence, as are the even earlier letters of Paul.

I'll take the Silver Surfer over this snoozefest any day.

I think that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts/based on eyewitness accounts that meet extremely high standards of consistency and accuracy.

Trust in facts and evidence, not eyewitness accounts.

200 people at a club see a man shoot another man in the face and take the body away. The first man never goes to jail for murder. Why? Lack of evidence.

Eye witness accounts are lousy evidence. Every cop on the planet knows that.

Whilst hating to cite the gnostic Gospels, but those few dozen documents would count as evidence outside the Bible, wouldn't they? And what about Josephus, Tacitus etc.?

All of that has been debunked as apocryphal, even by the church that invented the Bible itself.

Also, you may be falling into a trap by pointing out the "outside the Bible" bit. The biblical Gospels are clearly evidence, as are the even earlier letters of Paul.

Never, ever, ever trust a single source on anything. It's bad policy.

All of that has been debunked as apocryphal, even by the church that invented the Bible itself.



Never, ever, ever trust a single source on anything. It's bad policy.


The church didn't invent the bible. That makes no sense! It was the bible that gave rise to the Church as we know it today.

And you've got to trust something if you want any beliefs at all, whether it's Islam or the Big Bang.

Er, a fictional superhero is kind of different from the notion of monotheism inasmuch as the kind of being we're talking about is a nonphysical being outside of time who created the universe and rules and controls it. What do you mean by "lame"? Boring? Not true?

The fact that the Christian God is lame doesn't have any particular bearing on whether or not He exists. I think it's a lame idea, if He doesn't exist, and I think He's a lame being, if He does exist. Dull, unimaginative, uninteresting, whatever.


My faith isn't so great that I'm never surprised. My view of God is usually far too small. But you're right; if I truly believed with my whole heart in God Almighty then I wouldn't be surprised at anything.

That's all I'm saying.


He did? Did he also happen to raise a few people from the dead, or get himself killed and rise again? Now that'd be cool, you've got to admit.

Horus did indeed peform miracles, including walking on water, casting out demons, healing the sick, and restoring sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." (Kind of like how Jesus ordered the sea with a "Peace, be still" command.)

Horus even raised the dead. Asar was an alternate name for Osirus, Horus' father, who Horus raised from the dead. He was referred to as "the Asar," as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, this is "El-Asar." The Romans added the prefix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus."

This miracle resurrectionin occured in a city called Anu; Hebrews added their prefix for house ("beth") to "Anu" to produce "Beth-Anu" or the "House of Anu." Since "u" and "y" were interchangeable in antiquity, "Bethanu" became "Bethany" (the location mentioned in John 11).

Horus was executed by crucifixion, was accompanied by two thieves, and was buried in a tomb. He then descended into Hell and resurrected after three days. Several women discovered he had risen.


How do they match up? Quote stories and source, please. I've heard the Horus thing before, but I've never been given any evidence. And I think you're continuing to ignore my point that the Jesus stories are told by eyewitnesses and are firmly rooted in the context of first-century Jewish society.

For sources, well, that'd be a long list. I got interested in the subject after seeing a program on TV (History Channel? Discovery Channel?), and I just started reading up on the myth. It's actually pretty striking how many similarities there are between the myth of Horus and the myth of Jesus. Of course, the Jesus myth also draws from many other ancient traditions and myths, so I guess I over-stated when I reduced it to merely a copy of the Horus myth.

Anyhoo, here are some of the parallels with Horus:

Horus was the only son of God (Osiris), begotten through immaculate conception with a virgin (Meri/Isis), born to her and her husband Seb (tr. Jo-Seph) who was of royal descent. His coming was announced to his mother by an angel. His birth was heralded by a brilliant star in the east. Shepards witnessed his birth, and three Kings (or possibly solar dieties) came to visit him shortly after his birth (something referred to as "the Adoration").

Herut (Herod) tried to have Horus murdered while he was still an infant. An angel appeared to Horus' mother and told her, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." (An angel told Jesus' father to "Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.")

Horus came of age at 12, and there is a break in his life history between the ages of 12 and 30. At 30 he was baptized in the river by Anup the Baptiser (who was subsequently beheaded). His baptism transformed Horus into the beloved and only begotten Son of the Father, the Holy Spirit, represented by a bird.

Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut (a.k.a. Set), who was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan. There Horus was tempted, but he resisted the temptation.

Horus had 12 followers, or "disciples," who followed him for much of his time on Earth.

Horus was trasfigured on a mountain. He delivered a key address referred to as the Sermon on the Mount.

Images often depict the Virgin Isis holding infant Horus. His common title is KRST, the anointed one ("Christ" is Greek for "annointed one"). He is also known as the good shepard, the bread of life, the lamb of God, the son of man, and the Word.


I think that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts/based on eyewitness accounts that meet extremely high standards of consistency and accuracy.
Even if we assume that these records are actually based on eyewitness accounts, and even if we assume the eyewitnesses gave accurate accounts of what happened, we're still left with a situation in which the records we have were not written down until GENERATIONS after the events they purport to describe.

As a comparison, one of my friends is a direct descendent of the first doctor to treat President Lincoln after he was shot. He's even gotten to read some of his ancestor's personal letters and notes about what he witnessed. But if my friend were to now write out an account of those events, it couldn't fairly be considered "eyewitness testimony." And he's got solid written records, along with actual photographs from the time period, and numerous other sources of documentation...now imagine trying to do the same kind of historical reconstruction back during a time when pretty much nobody could read and most people died before the age of 40. Even if the writer has the best possible intentions, the potential for honest error is enormous.

Trust in facts and evidence, not eyewitness accounts.

200 people at a club see a man shoot another man in the face and take the body away. The first man never goes to jail for murder. Why? Lack of evidence.

Eye witness accounts are lousy evidence. Every cop on the planet knows that.
That seems an extremely unlikely case. Eyewitness evidence should at least prove that Jesus existed. In the case cited by you, if the 200 people turned up at the police station and swore that they had seen a murder, would you just say, "Go away, eyewitness evidence counts for nothing" and dismiss them? Don't think so.
But beyond that, do you genuinely expect archaeology to show traces of that one single life of a working-class man, who had no coins produced with his name on them, wrote no legal codes and didn't live in a palace?

All of that has been debunked as apocryphal, even by the church that invented the Bible itself.



Never, ever, ever trust a single source on anything. It's bad policy.
The Bible is not a single source; the New Testament comprises 27 books by a variety of authors, all of which talk about Jesus.
Tacitus and Josephus have been debunked as apocryphal? That's news to me. Also, "apocryphal" doesn't mean "made up". They still have a historical core, namely the real Jesus Christ.

The Bible is not a single source; the New Testament comprises 27 books by a variety of authors, all of which talk about Jesus.
Tacitus and Josephus have been debunked as apocryphal? That's news to me. Also, "apocryphal" doesn't mean "made up". They still have a historical core, namely the real Jesus Christ.
Apocrypha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphal)
In Judeo-Christian theology, apocrypha are texts that some traditions do not consider as canonical, or Biblical.

...the word apocrypha acquired a negative connotation, and has become synonymous with "spurious" or "false" in nonsectarian usage today.

He was the messiah. The Jews waited and looked all this time for the Messiah and they ended up executing him, but then again had they not there would be no redemption for mankind, God's mercy on mankind, eternal life with him, and all the good stuff.

They, uh, didn't. The Romans did. Y'know, the guys in armor that had spears and whips and the government. Ask any Rabbi today and you'll get the answer "He was a good guy, we just don't think he was -the- messiah."

Horus even raised the dead. Asar was an alternate name for Osirus, Horus' father, who Horus raised from the dead. He was referred to as "the Asar," as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, this is "El-Asar." The Romans added the prefix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus."

This miracle resurrectionin occured in a city called Anu; Hebrews added their prefix for house ("beth") to "Anu" to produce "Beth-Anu" or the "House of Anu." Since "u" and "y" were interchangeable in antiquity, "Bethanu" became "Bethany" (the location mentioned in John 11).
Bethany is an actual place that is mentioned several times in more than one gospel as the place where the disciples stayed after Jesus' crucifixion; it is not mythological.
The name "Lazarus" is also mentioned more than once, the other occasion being Luke's Gospel where Lazarus is a beggar.
What I'm looking for is an actual pre-first century primary source that records these Horus myths, simply because otherwise Horus might just as easily borrowed from Jesus as the other way round.
Even if we assume that these records are actually based on eyewitness accounts, and even if we assume the eyewitnesses gave accurate accounts of what happened, we're still left with a situation in which the records we have were not written down until GENERATIONS after the events they purport to describe.

As a comparison, one of my friends is a direct descendent of the first doctor to treat President Lincoln after he was shot. He's even gotten to read some of his ancestor's personal letters and notes about what he witnessed. But if my friend were to now write out an account of those events, it couldn't fairly be considered "eyewitness testimony." And he's got solid written records, along with actual photographs from the time period, and numerous other sources of documentation...now imagine trying to do the same kind of historical reconstruction back during a time when pretty much nobody could read and most people died before the age of 40. Even if the writer has the best possible intentions, the potential for honest error is enormous.
Hang on and consider the timeframe. The assassination of Abraham Lincoln was 140 years ago, but when the gospels were written, Jesus had been dead between thirty and sixty years. That's a massive difference because it means that the gospels could be written by actual eyewitnesses, as opposed to being transmitted through generations.

Apocrypha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphal)
I agree that those books aren't reliable enough to be included in the canon, but they still contain a kernel of truth - witness to the historicity of Jesus.

Ask any Rabbi today and you'll get the answer "He was a good guy, we just don't think he was -the- messiah."
... which is really tantamount to rejecting him, since Jesus claimed to be the messiah and the Son of God.

... which is really tantamount to rejecting him, since Jesus claimed to be the messiah and the Son of God.

True, but it's a far cry from actual persecution. I don't think David Blaine is all that great a magician - doesn't mean I hate the guy and wish he was dead.

Whilst hating to cite the gnostic Gospels, but those few dozen documents would count as evidence outside the Bible, wouldn't they?

The Gnostic Gospels were written a stupidly long time after Jesus dies (assuming he lived).

And what about Josephus, Tacitus etc.?

What about them?

The Josephus quote is widely agreed to be a later interpolation by Eusebius in the fourth century (Eusebius was been quoted as saying that it's OK for Christians to lie if it advances Christianity).

Tacitus was simply reporting the beliefs of early Christians, not attesting to their veracity.

Also, you may be falling into a trap by pointing out the "outside the Bible" bit. The biblical Gospels are clearly evidence,

They are evidence, just not very good evidence. We don't know who wrote them, when they were written or where they were written. Combine this with the fact that most modern scholars reject apostolic authorship and the Gospels are pretty much worthless.

as are the even earlier letters of Paul.

Jesus Mythicists would argue that the Pauline epistles actually support them. Paul gives no real details about Jesus's life. There are points in his letters where Paul fails to reference Jesus's teaching or quotes when the context would suit them so well.

I suggest you start a new thread if you want to discuss this in detail rather than hijacking this one.

Newsflash: There was no Jesus. There is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. Not one shred of it outside the Bible. Talking about Jesus as a real person is the same as talking about Harry Potter as a real person.

It's insane.

All "proof" of the existence, from the shroud of tourin to the famed ossuary, has been completely debunked as fakes or wrong.

You can't reject what never existed.

Your views have certainly changed recently. :p

Bethany is an actual place that is mentioned several times in more than one gospel as the place where the disciples stayed after Jesus' crucifixion; it is not mythological.
The name "Lazarus" is also mentioned more than once, the other occasion being Luke's Gospel where Lazarus is a beggar.

Um, ok. You asked if Horus raised the dead; according to the myths, not only did he raise the dead, but he also raised a dead guy who's got a name suspisciously similar to a dude that Jesus raised from the dead. If you want to nit pick, that's up to you.


What I'm looking for is an actual pre-first century primary source that records these Horus myths, simply because otherwise Horus might just as easily borrowed from Jesus as the other way round.

The myth of Horus most definitely predates the Jesus myth by thousands of years; you can learn as much with a simple trip to a museum with an Egyptology section. The primary sources for the myth of Horus include status and figurines (such as the ones depicting the virgin mother and her demi-god son), as well as carvings, temples built in honor of Horus, and a host of other artifacts. There is no doubt whatsoever that people worshipped Horus long before the time of Jesus. Whether or not you believe Horus was real, or Jesus was, the fact that the Horus myth pre-dates Jesus is not in dispute.


Hang on and consider the timeframe. The assassination of Abraham Lincoln was 140 years ago, but when the gospels were written, Jesus had been dead between thirty and sixty years. That's a massive difference because it means that the gospels could be written by actual eyewitnesses, as opposed to being transmitted through generations.
The Bible as we know it did not exist until CENTURIES after the supposed birth of Christ. And the Bible as you have read it probably didn't exist until at least a thousand years after that, since I'm guessing you don't read the Bible in its original translation. I'd say my comparison was extremely generous, given that my buddy is less than 2 centuries removed from the events in question, and the Bible was most definitely at least two times as removed from the events it describes.

The Bible as we know it did not exist until CENTURIES after the supposed birth of Christ. And the Bible as you have read it probably didn't exist until at least a thousand years after that, since I'm guessing you don't read the Bible in its original translation. I'd say my comparison was extremely generous, given that my buddy is less than 2 centuries removed from the events in question, and the Bible was most definitely at least two times as removed from the events it describes.

That, and your buddy's description of the events would not be re-edited and re-translated over the next millenia or two.

The Gnostic Gospels were written a stupidly long time after Jesus dies (assuming he lived).
What about them?
The Josephus quote is widely agreed to be a later interpolation by Eusebius in the fourth century (Eusebius was been quoted as saying that it's OK for Christians to lie if it advances Christianity).
Tacitus was simply reporting the beliefs of early Christians, not attesting to their veracity.
It was never my intention to hijack anything, it just developed this way. So this is my last post on this, hopefully. Anyway... The Josephus quote is most likely a mixture of original Josephus and interpolation. Tacitus does indeed report Christians' belief; nonetheless, the fact that he talks about Christians in 64AD (30 years on from the crucifixion) confirms that Jesus must have existed (why else would people worship him? On that point, Pliny).
The Gnostic Gospels were late indeed. By the way, I don't disagree with you on that point. Funny enough, the lateness of the gnostic gospels is a popular apologist argument. Nonetheless, they do exist and are clearly evidence.
They are evidence, just not very good evidence. We don't know who wrote them, when they were written or where they were written. Combine this with the fact that most modern scholars reject apostolic authorship and the Gospels are pretty much worthless.
Only two of the gospels are supposedly written by apostles anyway. However, shouldn't the existence of four documents discussing Jesus' life and deeds in detail within a generation confirm at least that he did exist?
Jesus Mythicists would argue that the Pauline epistles actually support them. Paul gives no real details about Jesus's life. There are points in his letters where Paul fails to reference Jesus's teaching or quotes when the context would suit them so well.
Nonetheless, from Paul we learn about the cross, the last supper, the resurrection, the ascension and other things. Clearly evidence.

It was never my intention to hijack anything, it just developed this way. So this is my last post on this, hopefully. Anyway... The Josephus quote is most likely a mixture of original Josephus and interpolation. Tacitus does indeed report Christians' belief; nonetheless, the fact that he talks about Christians in 64AD (30 years on from the crucifixion) confirms that Jesus must have existed (why else would people worship him? On that point, Pliny).
The Gnostic Gospels were late indeed. By the way, I don't disagree with you on that point. Funny enough, the lateness of the gnostic gospels is a popular apologist argument. Nonetheless, they do exist and are clearly evidence.

Only two of the gospels are supposedly written by apostles anyway. However, shouldn't the existence of four documents discussing Jesus' life and deeds in detail within a generation confirm at least that he did exist?

Nonetheless, from Paul we learn about the cross, the last supper, the resurrection, the ascension and other things. Clearly evidence.

I'm just curious: What's the Gospel of Mary have to say about Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightonnia
I can explain all of them
He walk through water only a couple of inches deep, he just told everyone the waters really dirty

Well, the disciples were crossing the lake in a boat at the same time, so it couldn't have been a couple of inches deep. Moreover, Peter tried to walk on the same water, but began to sink for lack of faith.

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He was using CGI, serious it never said he could fly

I can't find that either; however, he will come down on the clouds of heaven, so you could count that as flying.

Quote:
He just had white wine and everyone was so pissed at the end they believed that he turned water into wine

Jesus' mother Mary and the servants, and the master of the feast, are mentioned as witnesses. These are all people who would have been required to be sober.

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He was a very good magician, u see magicians doing it all the time today, but its all about trick of the eye and slight of hand

And that's how he healed serious diseases? Er, somehow I don't think so. He fed five thousand people from just a few loaves - where's the secret stash?

Quote:
He raised dead? He was a grave robber who then made the corpse dance using puppet strings

Which is why Lazarus left his tomb at Jesus just calling out his name and was, visibly to everyone, perfectly alive again...

Quote:
He was also a doctor with access to many presnet day medicines

He healed people with a word, or a touch, or both. What present-day doctor does that?

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He was nailed to a couple of planks of wood, put in a cave and somone stole his body, either that or went on one hell of bender and woke thinking, "oh not again guys, why do u always shut in a cave???"

He clearly died on the cross; Roman executioners weren't that amateurish. They were good at killing people. As for the disciples stealing his body, it's kind of surprising that they would leave their homes, face persecution, flogging, beating, imprisonment and execution for the sake of a lie.

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He got everyone badly stoned (as in drugs)

That takes a lot of pot - five thousand people at a time...

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He dad did his mom on a 1 night stand and got her pregnant and he ran off

Both his mother and his "father" (Joseph) apparently thought otherwise. Mary was surprised to be told she was pregnant, because she had never slept with anyone. Joseph was intending to divorce her because of the shame, but was told otherwise by an angel. He didn't run off.

Quote:
He fasted for 40 days, so did David Blaine, and i he was alone how do we know he didnt just have a secret stash of food

In the desert? Which wouldn't go bad or be eaten by animals? And what about water?

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He predicted the future, so has nostredamus

That's an irrelevant point. The Old Testament prophets predicted the future too. His accurate predictions, however, prove that he was sent by God.

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He could read minds? he just did it yori gellar style "I knew you were gonna say that"

And that's how he managed to tell a woman he had just met five minutes ago, "You have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband"? That's pretty extraordinary, wouldn't you agree?

Quote:
See all easily explained

See, in the light of those "explanations" it's actually more plausible that the miracles did happen...
What I said is pretty much all in the Bible, by the way.


Ok i was just taking the piss, coz religion is laughable. Its a way of controlling people, the older religions, developed from people trying to understnad the world around them from their limited knowledge. Coz they lacked scientific knowledge of how the world works they assumed it was higher beings, Gods. People were alot for gullable, if u did a few party tricks in front of them and they believe your god.

The myth of Horus most definitely predates the Jesus myth by thousands of years; you can learn as much with a simple trip to a museum with an Egyptology section. The primary sources for the myth of Horus include status and figurines (such as the ones depicting the virgin mother and her demi-god son), as well as carvings, temples built in honor of Horus, and a host of other artifacts. There is no doubt whatsoever that people worshipped Horus long before the time of Jesus. Whether or not you believe Horus was real, or Jesus was, the fact that the Horus myth pre-dates Jesus is not in dispute.
I know that Horus was an ancient Egyptian god. What I mean is, how early can we date these various myths, and how do we know them? The reason for this is that for example the popular cults of Isis and Mithras in the Roman Empire, which share some common characteristics with Christianity, would have been unrecognizable to their earlier Egyptian and Iranian adherents because they were so radically transformed. Similarly, I assume that the Horus myth changed. So I'd be grateful for sources.
The Bible as we know it did not exist until CENTURIES after the supposed birth of Christ. And the Bible as you have read it probably didn't exist until at least a thousand years after that, since I'm guessing you don't read the Bible in its original translation. I'd say my comparison was extremely generous, given that my buddy is less than 2 centuries removed from the events in question, and the Bible was most definitely at least two times as removed from the events it describes.
There's a bit of a difference between the books of the Bible being written and canonization. What I mean is, the books of the Bible were presumably all written in the first century, but it isn't until the fourth under Anastasius that we have our modern-day canon. In other words, the date of canonization is irrelevant to the authenticity of the Gospels themselves (in any case, the four Gospels were regarded as authoritative from the second century onwards).

I honestly take offense at that. He claimed that he was a messiah and the community just saw him as a carpenter.

He could do a miracle of a job, probably.

And what about the Jews of today? Last time I checked it was the Christians persecuting the Jews.

And also, I agree with Chellis.

Lat time I checked it was the Israelis persecuting the Palestinians

I'm just curious: What's the Gospel of Mary have to say about Jesus?

We only have a fairly short fragment, I'll post it here:

The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene
Chapter 4
(Pages 1 to 6 of the manuscript, containing chapters 1 - 3, are lost. The extant text starts on page 7...)

. . . Will matter then be destroyed or not?

22) The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.

23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.

24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?

26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.

27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root.

28) Then He continued and said, That is why you become sick and die, for you are deprived of the one who can heal you.

29) He who has a mind to understand, let him understand.

30) Matter gave birth to a passion that has no equal, which proceeded from something contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in its whole body.

31) That is why I said to you, Be of good courage, and if you are discouraged be encouraged in the presence of the different forms of nature.

32) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

33) When the Blessed One had said this, He greeted them all,saying, Peace be with you. Receive my peace unto yourselves.

34) Beware that no one lead you astray saying Lo here or lo there! For the Son of Man is within you.

35) Follow after Him!

36) Those who seek Him will find Him.

37) Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom.

38) Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it.

39) When He said this He departed.


Chapter 5
1) But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare Him, how will they spare us?

2) Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, Do not weep and do not grieve nor be irresolute, for His grace will be entirely with you and will protect you.

3) But rather, let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men.

4) When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the Savior.

5) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman.

6) Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember which you know, but we do not, nor have we heard them.

7) Mary answered and said, What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you.

8) And she began to speak to them these words: I, she said, I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to Him, Lord I saw you today in a vision. He answered and said to me,

9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.

10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?

11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision and it is [...]

(pages 11 - 14 are missing from the manuscript)


Chapter 8:
. . . it.

10) And desire said, I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie since you belong to me?

11) The soul answered and said, I saw you. You did not see me nor recognize me. I served you as a garment and you did not know me.

12) When it said this, it (the soul) went away rejoicing greatly.

13) Again it came to the third power, which is called ignorance.

14) The power questioned the soul, saying, Where are you going? In wickedness are you bound. But you are bound; do not judge!

15) And the soul said, Why do you judge me, although I have not judged?

16) I was bound, though I have not bound.

17) I was not recognized. But I have recognized that the All is being dissolved, both the earthly things and the heavenly.

18) When the soul had overcome the third power, it went upwards and saw the fourth power, which took seven forms.

19) The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven powers of wrath.

20) They asked the soul, Whence do you come slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?

21) The soul answered and said, What binds me has been slain, and what turns me about has been overcome,

22) and my desire has been ended, and ignorance has died.

23) In a aeon I was released from a world, and in a Type from a type, and from the fetter of oblivion which is transient.

24) From this time on will I attain to the rest of the time, of the season, of the aeon, in silence.


Chapter 9
1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.

2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.

3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.

7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.

9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.

10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.


The Gospel According to Mary

linky (http://www.webcom.com/%7Egnosis/library/marygosp.htm)

We also have two other very short fragments, you can find them at gospels.net if you're interested.

It was prophesied that he'd be turned on by his own people, the Jews. And seing some of the Jews today, it's no suprise.
Like I said taken down by ordinary smucks …

Superman was good enough to change the world without the need to die to fulfill it. But NoooOOOO some supposedly all powerful being can’t even manage to make a change (even a big change) without someone dying.

And most importantly of all, the exploits of both are pure fiction!

Superman is better, but only because they didnt have good comic-book illustrators when they were coming up with the bible.

Like I said taken down by ordinary smucks …

Superman was good enough to change the world without the need to die to fulfill it. But NoooOOOO some supposedly all powerful being can’t even manage to make a change (even a big change) without someone dying.

Superman would get owned by CHrist.

Superman would get owned by CHrist.
Christ was crucified by the Romans, so? Superman's entire planet and family was destroyed.

Superman doesn't ask you to believe in him. In fact he's rather modest about it.

Superman won't punish you for not believing in him.

Superman has X-ray vision.

Superman has a better costume.

Superman doesn't have to ask his daddy to do all the smiting and work for him.

Superman would get owned by CHrist.


Not a chance.

If he thought being crucified was bad, what superman would do to him would be ten times worse.

And most importantly of all, the exploits of both are pure fiction!

Superman is better, but only because they didnt have good comic-book illustrators when they were coming up with the bible.
Not true. (http://www.holybibble.net/index.php?id=1)

Not true. (http://www.holybibble.net/index.php?id=1)
Superman is to real. (http://superman.ws/superman-comics/)

No, he couldn't/didn't.

How do you know?

It was prophesied that he'd be turned on by his own people, the Jews. And seing some of the Jews today, it's no suprise.

The hell's your problem?

Not true.

Nice.

Superman doesn't have to ask his daddy to do all the smiting and work for him.

Technically, Christ IS his daddy, so your arguement is moot.

Spiderman is the best of all.

Superman still rawks.

That, and your buddy's description of the events would not be re-edited and re-translated over the next millenia or two.
Give an example of a re-editing of the Bible? Or a re-translation that has an actual effect on the accuracy of the text?

I'm just curious: What's the Gospel of Mary have to say about Jesus?
Check out the Gospel of Mary at http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm
A few points to make:
1. The Gospel of Mary doesn't say it's about Mary Magdalene. The New Testament knows several Marys.
2. It contains some weird stuff (check out the beginning bit).
3. It contains the totally feminist statement "let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men." This from the mouth of Mary.
It doesn't actually say much about Jesus at all. Jesus has a private chat with Mary, then disappears. Subsequently, Peter is annoyed that Jesus would talk to a woman but not to him. That's it, pretty much.

EDIT: I posted this before realising someone had actually posted the entire Gospel of Mary. My apologies.

Not a chance.

If he thought being crucified was bad, what superman would do to him would be ten times worse.
Which is what, considering that Jesus Christ now has an immortal resurrection body?
Also, being crucified IS bad, I assume. Which is why no Roman citizen could be crucified.

Which is what, considering that Jesus Christ now has an immortal resurrection body?
Don't forget the adamantium claws.

Don't forget the adamantium claws.
Omnipotence kind of beats it.

Omnipotence kind of beats it.
Doesn't change the fact that Jesus has awesome claws.

Which is what, considering that Jesus Christ now has an immortal resurrection body?
Also, being crucified IS bad, I assume. Which is why no Roman citizen could be crucified.


Immortal resurrection body means different things to different people.

It means nothing to superman.

Ten times worse.

Immortal resurrection body means different things to different people.

It means nothing to superman.

Ten times worse.
No! No! NO! I WIN! *Throws childish tantrum*
(On a more serious note, a resurrection body is incorruptible, so Jesus can't be hurt.)

Check out the Gospel of Mary at http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm
A few points to make:
1. The Gospel of Mary doesn't say it's about Mary Magdalene. The New Testament knows several Marys.
2. It contains some weird stuff (check out the beginning bit).
3. It contains the totally feminist statement "let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men." This from the mouth of Mary.
It doesn't actually say much about Jesus at all. Jesus has a private chat with Mary, then disappears. Subsequently, Peter is annoyed that Jesus would talk to a woman but not to him. That's it, pretty much.

EDIT: I posted this before realising someone had actually posted the entire Gospel of Mary. My apologies.


You seem to forget the most important aspect of the text.

It directly implies that Mary was not only the most beloved disciple, but also the woman Jesus loved more than any other.
This implicates, if not directly states, that Mary was Jesus' wife.
This is the reason its pretty much hated by the Catholic Church.

If you're ever going to make a relevant point you'd better do it fast.

I made a point. You just choosed to ignore it.

I'm Christian myself, but seriously, can you prove that Jesus did all these things?

If you have to question that he did all of those things then why are you a Christian?

Speaking from a fairly impartial position (being an atheist) I'd say that the Bible never unambigously condemns homosexuality.

And since you are an athiest and since I have read that it is, indeed a sin (its even listed under sexual sins), it is a sin.

*applauds*

oh, and for those who believe the Jews crucified Jesus, I'd like to remind them that Pontius Pilate was ROMAN.

I like to remind you that it was the keepers of the law that crucified him. They just needed Pilate's permission and Pilate did all he could to get Jesus released.

Newsflash: There was no Jesus. There is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. Not one shred of it outside the Bible. Talking about Jesus as a real person is the same as talking about Harry Potter as a real person.

Check your Qu'ron.

Lat time I checked it was the Israelis persecuting the Palestinians

Last time I checked, everyone persecutes someone for something.

You seem to forget the most important aspect of the text.

It directly implies that Mary was not only the most beloved disciple, but also the woman Jesus loved more than any other.
This implicates, if not directly states, that Mary was Jesus' wife.
This is the reason its pretty much hated by the Catholic Church.

How does it prove that mary (which one?) was Jesus' wife? Oh wait, it doesn't.

If you have to question that he did all of those things then why are you a Christian?
Because some people realize they don’t need proof to have faith (Which consequently means that you can have faith in something false … most religious people don’t like that thought though)

And since you are an athiest and since I have read that it is, indeed a sin (its even listed under sexual sins), it is a sin.

Would you care to show me the verse where the Bible unambigously condemns homosexuality?

He's half right. Jesus was rejected by his own people (as the OT said). But we would all have done the same in the Jews' place; in fact, we are equally guilty of rejecting the Son of God. However, Jews have suffered a lot of persecution from Christians. Nonetheless, it is true to say that a lot of Jews still reject Jesus.

... and a lot of Gentiles do too. Just look at this thread; do you really think the majority of these folks are Jewish? Then look at the rest of the world. The vast majority of Gentiles are not followers of Christ* either. As I said in my earlier post, the point made in the New Testament is that all people have rejected Christ and all people are out of relationship with him, until they make the choice to ask him to heal the rift they've made between God and themselves.

IMO the real point is, since everybody starts out alienated from Christ, there's no point in making a post that singles out Jewish people, either individually or as a nation. He (and you) may as well say, "a lot of Hindus (or Buddhists, or atheists, or animists) still reject Jesus", or even "a lot of Russians (or Venezualans, or Americans, or Mongolians, or Indonesians) still reject Jesus".

---------

* For the record, I'm not referring to the Gentiles who join a church so they'll have something to do in between bombings, shootings, punishment beatings, racketeering, or whatever else the Mafia, the terrorist factions on both sides of the Irish "troubles", the weirdos who think that murdering innocent Iraqis is a "Christian" act, and all the rest. The way I see it they've already rejected Christ.

Superman - Indian!

Two Jobs - Indian!

Ran Faster than train - only one place man can run faster than train! Indian!

Superman was an Indian!

(Goodness Gracious Me - what a show!)

While I admit Jesus was an awesome guy, I don't think he was THAT much like superman. I mean, superman FOUGHT against evil and pounded them to a pulp. Jesus was against this, he taught that people should forgive rather than beat the tar out of each other. But he did prove to be significant figure against mankinds sinful nature, so that does kinda make him sort of a superhero. Especially with his divine nature and ability to raise from the dead and what not. With everything he was though, I think it would be more accurate to call him: The Original Hippy.

It was prophesied that he'd be turned on by his own people, the Jews. And seing some of the Jews today, it's no suprise.
OOOhh! Controversial!

And jews persecuting Christians and Muslims, and on and on.
What Jews persecute Christians and Muslims?

He made things out of nothing

Hahahahahahahohohohoho.
Oh, what a salty barb ya got. A tear to the eye.

What Jews persecute Christians and Muslims?

Yes they did and some still do.

No, he couldn't/didn't.

So, you're Aethiest, I presume?

Seriously, if all you have to believe in is science, you're on shaky ground. Why? Well...

1. It all started with the 'Big Bang'.

That's easily disproved by the cellular theory which states that nothing is spontaneously created, it had to come from something else.

So seriously, if it's that sketchy starting from the ground up, I wouldn't believe much of what scientists say.

Plus, how could Earth be created with so much biodiversity, and be placed in such a place where if Earth were moved a few miles closer to the Sun we'd be burnt to a crisp, and moved back a few miles further, we'd freeze.

And, the New Testament is the most documented literature in history... Archaeologists have discovered about 20,000 transcripts of the New Testament. The second most documented piece of literature is the Homer's Ilyad, which only has about 7,000 (one third of the copies of the New Testament). So if you can take all that history, which is only documented a few hundred times as fact, why can't you accept the Bible and Jesus as fact?

Actually many of the other god men in previous legends did the EXACT same things, kid. Dionysus specifically.

Oh you mean like this story, just like in the Biblical story:rolleyes: :

Once, Dionysus found his old school master and foster father, Silenus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus), missing. The old man had been drinking, and had wandered away drunk, and was found by some peasants, who carried him to their king, Midas (alternatively, he passed out in Midas' rose garden). Midas recognized him, and treated him hospitably, entertaining him for ten days and nights with politeness, while Silenus entertained Midas and his friends with stories and songs. On the eleventh day he brought Silenus back to Dionysus. Dionysus offered Midas his choice of whatever reward he wanted. Midas asked that whatever he might touch should be changed into gold. Dionysus consented, though was sorry that he had not made a better choice. Midas rejoiced in his new power, which he hastened to put to the test. He touched and turned to gold an oak twig and a stone. Overjoyed, as soon as he got home, he ordered the servants to set a feast on the table. Then he found that his bread, meat, daughter and wine turned to gold.

Upset, Midas strove to divest himself of his power (the Midas Touch); he hated the gift he had coveted. He prayed to Dionysus, begging to be delivered from starvation. Dionysus heard and consented; he told Midas to wash in the river Pactolus. He did so, and when he touched the waters the power passed into them, and the river sands changed into gold. This was a cosmogony that explained why the sands of the Pactolus were rich in gold.

Seriously, if all you have to believe in is science, you're on shaky ground. Dude you don't "believe" in science. It's a system of analysis, not a faith.

1. It all started with the 'Big Bang'.

That's easily disproved by the cellular theory which states that nothing is spontaneously created, it had to come from something else. Congratulations, you have completely failed to grasp the very basics of science, not mention you have confused two totally different fields!

Plus, how could Earth be created with so much biodiversity, and be placed in such a place where if Earth were moved a few miles closer to the Sun we'd be burnt to a crisp, and moved back a few miles further, we'd freeze. Surely you can see what a poorly thought-out argument that is.

And, the New Testament is the most documented literature in history... Archaeologists have discovered about 20,000 transcripts of the New Testament. The second most documented piece of literature is the Homer's Ilyad, which only has about 7,000 (one third of the copies of the New Testament). So if you can take all that history, which is only documented a few hundred times as fact, why can't you accept the Bible and Jesus as fact? Like the "Ilyad", to me The New Testement is one part fact and ten parts bogus. I don't doubt that there was more than likely someone called Jesus who was a religious man who preached stuff. Beyond that, I very much doubt the validity of his miracles or his divinity.

Jesus Christ, the original superman

Yea, and just like Superman inhabited a universe of multiple superheroes, such as Batman, Spiderman, Wonderwoman, etc., so too does Jesus share his universe with other super heroes such as Confucius, Zoroaster, the Buddha, Moses, Mani, and Muhammad.

Justice League of the Cosmos!

(God save us from their followers).

Yea, and just like Superman inhabited a universe of multiple superheroes, such as Batman, Spiderman, Wonderwoman, etc., so too does Jesus share his universe with other super heroes such as Confucius, Zoroaster, the Buddha, Moses, Mani, and Muhammad.

Justice League of the Cosmos!

(God save us from their followers).

I actually think that would make a good comic. Deities and religious figures are often more interesting characters then superheroes, from my perspective.

No, he couldn't/didn't.


I agree.

Jesus Christ, the Orignal Superman


No, he can't be like superman cuz theres no Jesus kryptonite.

I actually think that would make a good comic. Deities and religious figures are often more interesting characters then superheroes, from my perspective.

Now that you mention it, I think it would.......... Look out everyone, idea in progress! (I'll give HotRodia credit for inspiration though)

Now that you mention it, I think it would.......... Look out everyone, idea in progress! (I'll give HotRodia credit for inspiration though)

Thanks. :)

No, he can't be like superman cuz theres no Jesus kryptonite.
Don't you remember the synthesizing that Richard Pryor did in one of them? He replaced a key ingredient with tar.

Maybe it'd be similar to jesus with railroad spikes.

Yea, and just like Superman inhabited a universe of multiple superheroes, such as Batman, Spiderman, Wonderwoman, etc., so too does Jesus share his universe with other super heroes such as Confucius, Zoroaster, the Buddha, Moses, Mani, and Muhammad.

Justice League of the Cosmos!

(God save us from their followers).
Looks to me like the thread finally got on track right 'round here.
:)
*bows*

So, you're Aethiest, I presume?

Seriously, if all you have to believe in is science, you're on shaky ground. Why? Well...

1. It all started with the 'Big Bang'.

That's easily disproved by the cellular theory which states that nothing is spontaneously created, it had to come from something else.

So seriously, if it's that sketchy starting from the ground up, I wouldn't believe much of what scientists say.

Plus, how could Earth be created with so much biodiversity, and be placed in such a place where if Earth were moved a few miles closer to the Sun we'd be burnt to a crisp, and moved back a few miles further, we'd freeze.

And, the New Testament is the most documented literature in history... Archaeologists have discovered about 20,000 transcripts of the New Testament. The second most documented piece of literature is the Homer's Ilyad, which only has about 7,000 (one third of the copies of the New Testament). So if you can take all that history, which is only documented a few hundred times as fact, why can't you accept the Bible and Jesus as fact?

Never heard of an Aethiest, personally.

I never claimed the big bang was true. Doesn't make any religion, etc true.

There is a nearly unimaginable number of planets in the universe. One being in a good position to support life isn't that hard to believe.

Biodiversity, I am not a scientist, biologists, etc, and will not talk about what I do not know. I will say, being an intelligent human being, I find what scientists are saying a whole lot more likely and believe-able than "magic man in the sky did it".

Religion is the most popular hoax in the world. Just because the majority of the world believes 1 + 1 = 3.1415926535, doesn't make it true. I wasn't aware that writing about a fake story so many times made it true.

No, he can't be like superman cuz theres no Jesus kryptonite.
Seems like a cross worked pretty well...

So, you're Aethiest, I presume?

Seriously, if all you have to believe in is science, you're on shaky ground. Why? Well...

1. It all started with the 'Big Bang'.

That's easily disproved by the cellular theory which states that nothing is spontaneously created, it had to come from something else.
"Cellular theory"? What the crap is this?


So seriously, if it's that sketchy starting from the ground up, I wouldn't believe much of what scientists say.

You obviously haven't troubled yourself to learn such basic concepts as "why biology and Big Bang Theory are not the same thing," so it's pretty clear that your belief in science will not be in any way related to what science has to say.


Plus, how could Earth be created with so much biodiversity, and be placed in such a place where if Earth were moved a few miles closer to the Sun we'd be burnt to a crisp, and moved back a few miles further, we'd freeze.

Simple: if the Earth had not be placed as it is, life would not have developed as it has. It might have developed along different lines, or it might not have developed at all. Why is that so hard to understand?

If your mother had never met your father, you wouldn't exist. If your mother had met your father 10 years later than she did, you wouldn't exist. If your mother and father had met exactly when they did, but had sex at a slightly different time of day on the day they conceived you, you wouldn't exist in the form you do now.

Kind of trippy to think about, but that's how it works. If the Earth hadn't been the way it is, life wouldn't be the way it is. Life developed as it did BECAUSE of the conditions that existed, not the other way around.


And, the New Testament is the most documented literature in history...

First of all, no it's not. Second of all, even if it was, that would have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the events described in it are factually accurate.

Say I write down, "Insiderz is a giant slug from the planet Venus." Then I make billions of copies of what I've written. Then I make sure that all these copies survive, so they're all still around 2000 years from now. Assume, for the sake of argument, that no other documents or records survive in the same quanity that my statements do.

Will the people of the future be right to state that Insiderz MUST have been a giant slug from Venus because statements of this "fact" are the most numerous and "historical" documents they have?


Archaeologists have discovered about 20,000 transcripts of the New Testament. The second most documented piece of literature is the Homer's Ilyad, which only has about 7,000 (one third of the copies of the New Testament). So if you can take all that history, which is only documented a few hundred times as fact, why can't you accept the Bible and Jesus as fact?
Homer's Ilyad describes gods other than the Christian God, yet I haven't seen anybody claiming that the existence of the Ilyad proves the literal existence of Poseidon.

Would you care to show me the verse where the Bible unambigously condemns homosexuality?
I can provide a passage when the Bible unambiguously supports murdering children. I can provide a passage where the Bible unambiguously support rape. I can provide a passage where the Christian God favors saving guys who get drunk and have sex with their own daughters.

Even if the Bible does have a passage condemning homosexuality, do you really want to be taking sex advice from a God who thinks that murder, molestation, and rape are okay?

Absolutely, though its future has looked somewhat grim as of late. Lesbian Batgirl? If she's just a token lesbian you're gonna have a lot of pissed off comic-book geeks.

Either that, or a lot of horny ones. xP

Yeah, Jesus Christ...

A fictional comic book "superhero" just like Superman.

Yeah, Jesus Christ...

A fictional comic book "superhero" just like Superman.

Actually...Jesus was a real person so I wouldn't call him a fictional character for he really did exist.

Yeah, Jesus Christ...

A fictional comic book "superhero" just like Superman.
Actually...Superman was a real person so I wouldn't call him a fictional character for he really did exist.

Actually...Jesus was a real person so I wouldn't call him a fictional character for he really did exist.

Have you met him personally? Because I have this question that I have been dying to have answered:

Was Jesus black?

Actually...Jesus was a real person so I wouldn't call him a fictional character for he really did exist.

There is extraordinarily little reliable evidence for that; though I personally do not think it unlikely that a reasonably decent jew called Jesus was crucified back then. He after all would not have been the only one, Jesus was a common name and decent people do exist.

Have you met him personally? Because I have this question that I have been dying to have answered:

Was Jesus black?

No - that was Adam. Jesus looked like your typical palestinian.

There is extraordinarily little reliable evidence for that; though I personally do not think it unlikely that a reasonably decent jew called Jesus was crucified back then. He after all would not have been the only one, Jesus was a common name and decent people do exist.
Also, at that time in history there were upwards of a dozen Messiahs opperating in the greater Jeruselem area at any given time.

Have you met him personally? Because I have this question that I have been dying to have answered:

Was Jesus black?

Jesus was olive skin.

Was Jesus black?

In a word, no.

In a few more words, no he wasn't.

There is extraordinarily little reliable evidence for that; though I personally do not think it unlikely that a reasonably decent jew called Jesus was crucified back then. He after all would not have been the only one, Jesus was a common name and decent people do exist.

Actually...no one back then had the name of Jesus for it was reserved for the Messiah.

Also, at that time in history there were upwards of a dozen Messiahs opperating in the greater Jeruselem area at any given time.

Life of Brian - 1
The Passion - 0

In a word, no.

In a few more words, no he wasn't.
You sure? I mean, are you really sure? Because what if he is, and what if he's a little touchy about it?

We're talking about a guy who VOLUNTARILY got himself tortured to death. That is not a man with whom to fuck. I don't think any of us should run the risk of offending his ethnic sensibilities.

Also, at that time in history there were upwards of a dozen Messiahs opperating in the greater Jeruselem area at any given time.
Ha!

BLOOD & THUNDER PROPHET: ...And the bezan shall be huge and black, and the eyes thereof red with the blood of living creatures, and the whore of Babylon shall ride forth on a three-headed serpent, and throughout the lands, there'll be a great rubbing of parts. Yeeah...

FALSE PROPHET: ...For the demon shall bear a nine-bladed sword. Nine-bladed! Not two or five or seven, but nine, which he will wield on all wretched sinners, sinners just like you, sir, there, and the horns shall be on the head, with which he will...

BORING PROPHET: ...Obadiah, his servants. There shall, in that time, be rumours of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things wi-- with the sort of raffia work base that has an attachment. At this time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight o'clock. Yea, it is written in the book of Cyril that, in that time, shall the third one...

You sure? I mean, are you really sure? Because what if he is, and what if he's a little touchy about it?

Pretty positive since he didn't come from sub-saharan Africa.

We're talking about a guy who VOLUNTARILY got himself tortured to death. That is not a man with whom to fuck. I don't think any of us should run the risk of offending his ethnic sensibilities.

I think anyone who voluteers to be tortured in some of the worst possible ways has bigger things to worry about then people born two millennia later getting his skin colour wrong.

I'm just remembering Sam Kinnison...

Jesus was the only guy to rise from the dead and not freak everyone out.

"LOOK! THE DEAD LIVE! THE DEAD FUCKING LIVE! KILL IT! KILL IT!" - Sam Kinnison