NationStates Jolt Archive

Yet you disagree that it should be acknowledged and apologised for?

I've neither agreed nor disagreed with that policy.

But as long as we're being offensive just for the sake of pissing people off, I will say that the German women were all asking for it.

Why do people find that so horrifying? I think it makes it better, not worse. It was less discriminate. Less malicious. Like a factory.

Well to quote one of my great-uncles who was involved with liberating 2 camps.

"What I saw there justified every fucking German I killed"

That's exactly the point that does make it so horrifying. That people could actually create 'Factories of Death' essentially. It was so impersonal.

The russians raped everyone like a big factory too...They were just as evil. It is funny actually, while far right is associated with Hitler, far left is associated with hippies, instead of Stalin...

That's exactly the point that does make it so horrifying. That people could actually create 'Factories of Death' essentially. It was so impersonal.

Maybe it's the Asperger's, it's supposed to make me less able to connect to things emotionally. I see the impersonality as... not as bad as deliberate personal attacks like the Soviets did.

I never said it wasn't atrocious. I just don't see the same emotional side to it. It was sterile. Horrifying and unjustifiable, but devoid of emotion. I don't feel sad when I think of it. Not like other genocides.

I don't believe this. The fact that it was so cold, sterile and emotionless is exactly why it is so horrid. The fact that humans could create something so horrifying.

German Nightmare, I agree with Ny Nordland -- if the German Republic is the successor to the Third Reich, why is the Russian Federation not the successor of the USSR, hence not subject to all of the responsibilities, etc?
Maybe because Germany simply accepted that fact and took up the responsibilities while Russia might have just inherited without wanting to pay?
You can't really force big players to do anything.

Ever tried to force the US to abide to the law? You can't bully the bully...

The russians raped everyone like a big factory too...They were just as evil. It is funny actually, while far right is associated with Hitler, far left is associated with hippies, instead of Stalin...

No, it's wasn't like a factory. It was emotional. That's what makes it so horrifying to me.

Well to quote one of my great-uncles who was involved with liberating 2 camps.

"What I saw there justified every fucking German I killed"

Another sicko....Switzerland should have controlled the Nurenberg trials...The allies were obviously very biased...They should have also trialed Allied war criminals....

Well to quote one of my great-uncles who was involved with liberating 2 camps.

"What I saw there justified every fucking German I killed"

Did he ever write any memoirs? I've not found many memoirs of US Soldiers in Europe in the bookshops around here...

Well to quote one of my great-uncles who was involved with liberating 2 camps.

"What I saw there justified every fucking German I killed"

That is my problem summed up right there.

So, you say raping little german girls, who had no idea even about what Nazism is, were justice? You make me sick. And you are a historian, right? You are the living proof of bias of "history". You are discusting...

Your personal attacks aside, you still have yet to refute the part you labeled as "utter crap"

care to do so? Or can you?

I didn't say it wasnt horrible. You confuse justice (which is also known as karma) with mercy. Christians believe in mercy and prefer it over justice.

The Russians wanted revenge for a long litany of Nazi organized or inspired crimes.

They saw it as justice. If I had been a Soviet soldier, I would have too. Yes I am a historian, and have been reading World War II history since 1968. You are being emotional and not actually reading what is being written, just acting on your preconcieved notions.

The constant stream of "Germany has been wronged" arguements go back to the Napoleonic period. Its not even new. Nor is it unique to Germany. The problem the rest of the world has with those arguements is that German leaders have used them to cause or justify 2 World Wars, the Franco Prussian War, and wars with Austria and Denmark.

So yes, in this historians view, the German people allowed Hitler to take power, and he tried to conquer Eastern Europe west of the Volga River and those Nazis had as policy murder, slavery and ethnic cleansing on an unprecedented scale.. While fighting the War in the East the Wehrmacht, SS, various national contigents of other nations committed horrible crimes on a vast scale.

If justice is an eye for an eye, then justice was done to the Germans.

Well to quote one of my great-uncles who was involved with liberating 2 camps.

"What I saw there justified every fucking German I killed"

Well, your great-uncle is more a Nazi than my great-uncle, who we had to shut up so he didn't get us all killed (he was anti-Nazi).

That is my problem summed up right there.

An emotional reaction to a horrific sight? It's not like his relative went on a rampage, killing everyone he saw. Anyway, it is partially justified; the German villagers living near to the camps must have known what was happening.

If justice is an eye for an eye, then justice was done to the Germans.

And justice is not an eye for an eye. Goodbye.

Another sicko....Switzerland should have controlled the Nurenberg trials...The allies were obviously very biased...They should have also trialed Allied war criminals....

You know what, that is a very good idea. I wonder why the Allies didn't do that. No, actually I don't because I know. You are right, the Allies were very biased, and many people are still very biased today. It is easy to see the errors of other people, but when looking at yourself everything is always right.

why should we argue about this....the good thing happened and the nazi regime was stopped apoligizing wont change the past so why argue about it.....everyone knows rape is bad but apolagizing wont help.....but if their is anyone directley respnsible for this evil thing done by the russian then they should be punished

Your personal attacks aside, you still have yet to refute the part you labeled as "utter crap"

care to do so? Or can you?

I didn't say it wasnt horrible. You confuse justice (which is also known as karma) with mercy. Christians believe in mercy and prefer it over justice.

The Russians wanted revenge for a long litany of Nazi organized or inspired crimes.

They saw it as justice. If I had been a Soviet soldier, I would have too. Yes I am a historian, and have been reading World War II history since 1968. You are being emotional and not actually reading what is being written, just acting on your preconcieved notions.

The constant stream of "Germany has been wronged" arguements go back to the Napoleonic period. Its not even new. Nor is it unique to Germany. The problem the rest of the world has with those arguements is that German leaders have used them to cause or justify 2 World Wars, the Franco Prussian War, and wars with Austria and Denmark.

So yes, in this historians view, the German people allowed Hitler to take power, and he tried to conquer Eastern Europe west of the Volga River and those Nazis had as policy murder, slavery and ethnic cleansing on an unprecedented scale.. While fighting the War in the East the Wehrmacht, SS, various national contigents of other nations committed horrible crimes on a vast scale.

If justice is an eye for an eye, then justice was done to the Germans.

Sorry, Norwegian understanding of Justice isnt that primitive...I guess, neither is Canada's...

So, we're in agreeance? New Shiron is even more of a caveman than me?

And justice is not an eye for an eye. Goodbye.

The Bible and 3000 years of Greco - Roman- Christian Civilization says that an eye for an eye is justice. Its that now we try to temper it with mercy.

An emotional reaction to a horrific sight? It's not like his relative went on a rampage, killing everyone he saw. Anyway, it is partially justified; the German villagers living near to the camps must have known what was happening.

Sure, but the leaders of the Allied Nations, who knew more about it then those villagers, had more power to stop it than they did. Yet did they ever try to stop it? Of course not. Yet when the war was over they were more than happy to shift the blame on to fairly innocent people like Albert Speer; people who probably tried harder to stop it than them.

Why do people find that so horrifying? I think it makes it better, not worse. It was less discriminate. Less malicious. Like a factory.
I never said it wasn't atrocious. I just don't see the same emotional side to it. It was sterile. Horrifying and unjustifiable, but devoid of emotion. I don't feel sad when I think of it. Not like other genocides.
This is it. I declare you persona non grata.

Cool. What's the name and author again? I want to get it right...

A Stranger to Myself by Willy Peter Reese
Subtitle: The inhumanity of war: Russia, 1941-1944
Edited by Stefan Schmitz
Forward by Max Hastings
Translated by Michael Hofmann

ISBN: 0-374-13978-4

It's about 180 pages and as mentioned it's the writings of a guy who wrote a diary on whatever he could find. He finally sat down on one leave and typed them out. It's his descriptions so don't expect a history book of names and dates.

The Bible and 3000 years of Greco - Roman- Christian Civilization says that an eye for an eye is justice. Its that now we try to temper it with mercy.

Yes, and what happened to all of those civilisations?

So, we're in agreeance? New Shiron is even more of a caveman than me?

Apparently I am more well read then you are, and have more sophisticated understanding of how the world actually works.

Yes, and what happened to all of those civilisations?

We are living in it... its called Western Civilization

This is it. I declare you persona non grata.

Why are you discriminating against me because I have Asperger's Syndrome? I can't connect emotionally to the event.

So, we're in agreeance? New Shiron is even more of a caveman than me?

Yes, his/her "they killed our soldiers so we should rape their little girls" argument is absolute savagery....

We are living in it... its called Western Civilization

No, we're living in the year 2006. Ancient Rome and Greece are long gone.

Why are you discriminating against me because I have Asperger's Syndrome? I can't connect emotionally to the event.

Very few people actually can. Thousands of people die every day and no-one cares. Why do they pretend they do in the particular case of the Holocaust? (this is a genuine question)

Yes, his/her "they killed our soldiers so we should rape their little girls" argument is absolute savagery....

See, even though I say stuff like "I just wanna kill people," it's really just passion. If I were really to conquer, say, Russia, everything'd be real orderly like.

Very few people actually can. Thousands of people die every day and no-one cares. Why do they pretend they do in the particular case of the Holocaust? (this is a genuine question)

I dunno. People apparantly do. Just what I've heard.

See, even though I say stuff like "I just wanna kill people," it's really just passion. If I were really to conquer, say, Russia, everything'd be real orderly like.

I suggest you drop that line. Also dont try to conquer Russia, it's too cold for that. Both Napoléon and Hitler failed....

See, even though I say stuff like "I just wanna kill people," it's really just passion. If I were really to conquer, say, Russia, everything'd be real orderly like.

Yeah. And German women getting raped was "just passion" too.

But I see we have reached the point in the thread where the nazis (right now that would be you, NN and New Maastrich - we're only missing Great Beer and Food and -Somewhere-) just wank each other about their fantasies of power.

I suggest you drop that line. Also dont try to conquer Russia, it's too cold for that. Both Napoléon and Hitler failed....

Drop what line? And theoretically, if I tried to conquer Russia, I'd try something new. I haven't decided what yet.

Yeah. And German women getting raped was "just passion" too.

But I see we have reached the point in the thread where the nazis (right now that would be you, NN and New Maastrich - we're only missing Great Beer and Food and -Somewhere-) just wank each other about their fantasies of power.

Please ignore this man. I dont want to listen his psycho incest comments (which he got temporary forum ban for) again...

Did he ever write any memoirs? I've not found many memoirs of US Soldiers in Europe in the bookshops around here...

No. I wish he did because what he went through screwed him up bad. He went to war a happy go lucky fellow with potential and came back a shell of man that truly hated humanity(my aunts words).

He refused to talk about his war experiences in detail. We would only get bits and pieces from time to time. Especially if he was drinking a little.

For instance:

We were watching the Olympics and there was a record set in something(I forgot what and by whom) and he chimed up. That's nothing. At the Bulge I saw endless records in running, jumping, climbing and swimming. You can be amazed at what people can do when a tank is chasing them. :D

He later talked about being overrun by the Germans, most of his unit dead and chasing the Germans while they were chasing the Americans. He didn't say how he and the guys he was with got back to allied lines.

The camps he said next to nothing. The comment came up when he looked over my shoulder to see what I was reading. He just had this look that I really can't describe well. It freaked me out so I didn't try to push him. My aunt was always on top of him and if he got into a mood, she would tactfully get us away from him or get him out of the room.

Yeah. And German women getting raped was "just passion" too.

But I see we have reached the point in the thread where the nazis (right now that would be you, NN and New Maastrich - we're only missing Great Beer and Food and -Somewhere-) just wank each other about their fantasies of power.

Man, if any troops in my army raped, murdered or looted, they'd find out what it's like to be a toy soldier in a microwave. Crime would not be tolerated in this man's army.

Why are you discriminating against me because I have Asperger's Syndrome? I can't connect emotionally to the event.

I don't feel sad when I think of it. Not like other genocides.
What a pathetic excuse of backpeddling.

I see My Nordland is up to his regular bag of tricks. Lame as usual.

Drop what line? And theoretically, if I tried to conquer Russia, I'd try something new. I haven't decided what yet.

The line you say about you just want to kill people....
You just gotta wait for Global Warming to conquer Russia...

Another sicko....Switzerland should have controlled the Nurenberg trials...The allies were obviously very biased...They should have also trialed Allied war criminals....

He was a far better man then you will ever be sweety.

What a pathetic excuse of backpeddling.

What backpedalling? I said, I don't feel any emotion from the Holocaust. I know it's the worst atrocity in human history and I should feel guilt about it, but I don't. How is that my fault?

What a pathetic excuse of backpeddling.

I see My Nordland is up to his regular bag of tricks. Lame as usual.

More mindless chatter from Sinuhue. Please dont spam or do it with people of your calibré.

I'm going to bed. It's 4 AM and I can't feel my hands. And now I'm gonna get banned again because you guys brought up a touchy subject and made me emotional.

Well, your great-uncle is more a Nazi than my great-uncle, who we had to shut up so he didn't get us all killed (he was anti-Nazi).

Sure he was. When he went to war, he couldn't even tell you what a Nazi was. He was a simple farm boy.

To him the Germans were the enemy. They became worst when he saw the camps.

What backpedalling? I said, I don't feel any emotion from the Holocaust. I know it's the worst atrocity in human history and I should feel guilt about it, but I don't. How is that my fault?
Because you clearly state "Not like other genocides", indicating that you DO feel something about other genocides, but not this one.

Why are you discriminating against me because I have Asperger's Syndrome? I can't connect emotionally to the event.
I'm not. I read what you state, don't like it, and I don't like you. Simple as that.

Maybe you shouldn't pass judgements on events if you can't emotianlly connect to them, huh?

More mindless chatter from Sinuhue. Please dont spam or do it with people of your calibré.
Someone quick...point out to me one decent argument My Nordland has made in this thread, so I can avoid wasting my time going through the rest of his habitually racist posts.

Simply put, I think that if you did something bad in the past, be a man (or woman) and own up to it, confess what you did was just plain wrong and apologize. Just get it off your chest, no harm in doing that.

No, we're living in the year 2006. Ancient Rome and Greece are long gone.

you do understand that the laws, customs, morality, and very fabric of our culture derives from them, with the addition of Christianity, Democracy (a Greek idea), and equality before the law (a Roman idea).

And that nearly all historians, historical anthropologists and liberal arts majors realize that we live in Western Civilization.

Right?

If not, pay more attention in your studies.

You know what, that is a very good idea. I wonder why the Allies didn't do that. No, actually I don't because I know. You are right, the Allies were very biased, and many people are still very biased today. It is easy to see the errors of other people, but when looking at yourself everything is always right.

The spoils go to the victors. You think Stalin would have agreed to it?

Never mind the fact that we now have seen info where Switzerland was working with the Nazis. Many incidents of turning Jews over to them but of course keeping their positions first.

The spoils go to the victors. You think Stalin would have agreed to it?

Never mind the fact that we now have seen info where Switzerland was working with the Nazis. Many incidents of turning Jews over to them but of course keeping their positions first.

They were working with Allies too. And switzerland is as neutral as it gets...

Someone quick...point out to me one decent argument My Nordland has made in this thread, so I can avoid wasting my time going through the rest of his habitually racist posts.
Hey Sin, whazzup? Come to play "poke the idiots"? 'Cause there's little else to do in this thread... http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/GermanFanblock.jpg

They were working with Allies too. And switzerland is as neutral as it gets...

Sorry to burst your bubble, sweety. New info that came out suggests otherwise.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/train/

Hey Sin, whazzup? Come to play "poke the idiots"? 'Cause there's little else to do in this thread... http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/GermanFanblock.jpg

Make another thread so you can play among yourselves. Dont contaminate this thread with such moronic comments...

Pretty much. My Nordland is generally unable to back up his wild claims and assertations with anything that resembles fact, and he want us to take his threads in discrete pieces, and pretend we don't know about his racist agenda. Oh, right...and we are also supposed to believe he isn't racist...he just doesn't want dirty foreigners around him, that's all.

He's had quite the shelf life though...it rather amazes me. I don't think he's topped VoteEarly for longevity, but even VoteEarly finally revealed too much of himself and got booted. I'm just wondering when My Norldland is going to stop prancing around, and get down to what he really wants. Whites on top, niggers and assorted mudpeople on the bottom.

Make another thread so you can play among yourselves. Dont contaminate this thread with such moronic comments...
You're doing a lovely job already, I know, but I'm quite sure we have value-added goodness to share.

Pretty much. My Nordland is generally unable to back up his wild claims and assertations with anything that resembles fact, and he want us to take his threads in discrete pieces, and pretend we don't know about his racist agenda. Oh, right...and we are also supposed to believe he isn't racist...he just doesn't want dirty foreigners around him, that's all.

He's had quite the shelf life though...it rather amazes me. I don't think he's topped VoteEarly for longevity, but even VoteEarly finally revealed too much of himself and got booted. I'm just wondering when My Norldland is going to stop prancing around, and get down to what he really wants. Whites on top, niggers and assorted mudpeople on the bottom.

ah yes...I just made up that russians raped millions of german women...Read the OP....If you can not comprehend what is being said, make your own thread, and discuss these with people of your level...

You're doing a lovely job already, I know, but I'm quite sure we have value-added goodness to share.

You cant do anything better than mindless chatter, can you? I'm done wasting my time with you....

Neither Government should be forced to apolgise- neither the Nazi Government or the USSR exist now, but there still should be some sort of remorial to the German Civillians lost.

Sorry to burst your bubble, sweety. New info that came out suggests otherwise.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/train/
The Swiss shot down German planes as well.
In several air incidents the Swiss (using 10 Bf-109 D, 80 Bf-109 E fighters bought from Germany and some Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 built under license in Switzerland) shot down 11 Luftwaffe planes between 10 May 1940 and 17 June 1940.

You cant do anything better than mindless chatter, can you? I'm done wasting my time with you....

Sure you are. You need the attention.

@ My Nordland

Why should the Russians apoligise for something none of them had anything to do with? Why should any of us have to apoligise for the crimes of our fathers.

Using your logic the children of serial killers should have to pay some kind of penalty for being born.

The Swiss shot down German planes as well.

Oh don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting they were on the level of Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania.

I am just pointing they were not completely neutral as our friends have suggested.

ah yes...I just made up that russians raped millions of german women...Read the OPOh, I did read the OP. Always a delight, your opening diatribes. But those are the only facts you've used so far...to back up your argument that what...the Russians should apologise? Sorry...have the Turks apologised yet? Have the Japanese apologised to China? There are a multitude of apologies needed, and lacking, and you pick out the Germans. Coincidence? I think not. So what is it exactly, that you want to happen? Are you able to sum up your argument succinctly, or is all that emotional turmoil roiling around in your tummy making it impossible?


....If you can not comprehend what is being said, make your own thread, and discuss these with people of your level...
Of my level...people of mixed race no doubt. Well, I think I can keep up with the purebred whiteys, despite your various claims about IQ and such.

@ My Nordland

Why should the Russians apoligise for something none of them had anything to do with? Why should any of us have to apoligise for the crimes of our fathers.

Using your logic the children of serial killers should have to pay some kind of penalty for being born.

You obviously haven't read much of what was said previously. I suggest you do so. Particularly some of my posts, they should answer your question quite accurately.

Yeah, maybe you should shut the fuck up. That's not a joke or sarcasm either.
1,000,000 - Roughly the number of Jews killed in the USSR by the Germans.
10,700,000 - Roughly the number of Soviet soldiers killed principally by the Germans.
11,500,000 - Number of Soviet civiliants killed principally by the Germans.

I would not be best pleased either. You can basically fuck off. That is not a joke or sarcasm.
You fuck off, rapist.
And who did I personally rape, neo-Nazi shitbag?

Y'all should consider that swearing generally lessens the impact of your argument to others. And calling each other names is somewhere you do not want to go too far with.

Just a friendly reminder. ;)

Erastide
~Forum Moderator

Well come on people...it's always good to be reminded to stay civil...but it shouldn't shut down a perfectly good conversation.

Then again, that doesn't really apply in this case...sorry, did we get a vision statement for this thread yet?

You obviously haven't read much of what was said previously. I suggest you do so. Particularly some of my posts, they should answer your question quite accurately.

Oh, I've read the whole thread and haven't seen a single argument more compelling than 'they were naughty 60 years ago'. My question stands, why should a government which had nothing to do with the incident in hand have to accept responsibility for it?

Even if the Russians did apoligise then what would it achieve? Would it un-rape the women?

Neither Government should be forced to apolgise- neither the Nazi Government or the USSR exist now, but there still should be some sort of remorial to the German Civillians lost.
There is. It's called the Frauenkirche in Dresden which has been rebuild with as many original stones as possible, mostly paid for by the German people - except for the new cross on the top which has been donated and build by the children
of British bomber pilots.

http://www.frauenkirche-dresden.org/ (site available in English, too)

Remembering history and mourning the dead from mistakes made in the past at its best. That's how it should be done. Same with the German chancellor visiting the Normandy festivities together with the allies.

Oh, I've read the whole thread and haven't seen a single argument more compelling than 'they were naughty 60 years ago'. My question stands, why should a government which had nothing to do with the incident in hand have to accept responsibility for it?

Even if the Russians did apoligise then what would it achieve? Would it un-rape the women?

You must not have read very clearly. I wrote at length about the German Government and ordinary Germans being forced to pay millions to families of those killed during the war. It has also been built into the German mindset that they should feel guilty for what happened. So basicly we are asking the same question. Why should Germany and Germans be forced to pay for what some Germans did 60 years ago? I just want some equality, that's all. If the Russians (i could list all combatants here) don't have to apoligize, why should the Germans have to?

You must not have read very clearly. I wrote at length about the German Government and ordinary Germans being forced to pay millions to families of those killed during the war. It has also been built into the German mindset that they should feel guilty for what happened. So basicly we are asking the same question. Why should Germany and Germans be forced to pay for what some Germans did 60 years ago? I just want some equality, that's all. If the Russians don't have to apoligize, why should the Germans have to?

Because the rest of the world at the time, and for the most part since, considers the Germans to have started it, and therefore having the most responsability.

No invasion of the USSR, no mass atrocities in the East, then no Soviet Invasion of Central and Eastern Europe and now mass atrocities in Europe.

That is the logic.

You must not have read very clearly. I wrote at length about the German Government and ordinary Germans being forced to pay millions to families of those killed during the war. It has also been built into the German mindset that should feel guilty for what happened. So basicly we are asking the same question. Why should Germany and Germans be forced to pay for what some Germans did 60 years ago? I just want some equality, that's all. If the Russians don't have to apoligize, why should the Germans have to?

Dude, I agree with you and it's for the German people to stand up and say in one voice 'we are not responsible for what our fathers did'.

What I fail to see, however, is how making the Russians do what the Germans were force to do after the war is going to help the world move on from the tragedy that was the second world war.

Some people consider mass evacuation of Armenians as genocide. But interestingly, noone considers mass evacuation of Germans as genocide. Is it because germans were so evil? I mean even the milkman knew about concentration camps (sarcasm in case you didnt get it), so all those evil germans deserve to be killed and not remembered? Even if you consider it as a genocide or not, should Russians apologize? Should they also apologize for mass rapes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_exodus_from_Eastern_Europe

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/berlin_05.shtml

http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_rape.htm

Edit: Attitude in Russia Today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.html

I find myself in a difficult position... Obviously, rape is a terrible thing. Obviously, atrocities happen in war, and that fact is, also, a terrible thing.

But what we have here, is a tricky situation...

One report "estimates" there were a number of rapes... based on abortion figures (not accounting, apparently, for the fact that 'ethnic German' women were forbidden abortion during Hitler's reign... and might have obtained abortions en masse with the fall of the Nazis). Another report talks about rapes that "probably" happened.

I'm sure rapes DID happen. I'm sure there WERE acts of rape-as-retaliation. Was is Soviet policy? Was it as widespread as we are being told? There is no way to know - and the data we DO have is either individual accounts of anecdotal evidence (the girl who was upstairs while another girl was raped downstairs... this anecdote is 'evidence' of only one rape), or speculation.


But - you compare that to - for example - the mass executions at a concentration camp, where evidence is immaculate... numbers of victims, names of victims, manner of execution... everything.

The 'genocide' in the camps is NOT a matter of speculation or anecdote.. it is a matter of accurate historical record.


But, for some reason, it doesn't surprise me to find Ny starting a thread appealing for sympathy for the Nazi regime...

Dude, I agree with you and it's for the German people to stand up and say in one voice 'we are not responsible for what our fathers did'.

What I fail to see, however, is how making the Russians do what the Germans were force to do after the war is going to help the world move on from the tragedy that was the second world war.

That's the problem with society. There are people who stand up and say "it's not our fault". Do you know what happens to those people? They are branded as anti-semitic neo-nazis and thrown in jail. That is the problem I am trying to highlight here. I agree with you that no matter how many apologies are made, it can't take back what happened. I just know that I would, as well as many other millions of people, would feel far more relieved that they aren't being singled out, and that some equality has been returned to the matter.

Sure, but the leaders of the Allied Nations, who knew more about it then those villagers, had more power to stop it than they did. Yet did they ever try to stop it? Of course not. Yet when the war was over they were more than happy to shift the blame on to fairly innocent people like Albert Speer; people who probably tried harder to stop it than them.

Indeed, Hitler might have been able to be stopped if France and Britian weren't kissing Hitler's ass at every oppertunity. But playing what-if history tends to get dangerous...

Well, Skinny, you have to remember, the camps probably inspired fear, also. They knew very well that if they tried to stop it, they'd be the ones looking out of the barbed wire, not in...

I find myself in a difficult position... Obviously, rape is a terrible thing. Obviously, atrocities happen in war, and that fact is, also, a terrible thing.

But what we have here, is a tricky situation...

One report "estimates" there were a number of rapes... based on abortion figures (not accounting, apparently, for the fact that 'ethnic German' women were forbidden abortion during Hitler's reign... and might have obtained abortions en masse with the fall of the Nazis). Another report talks about rapes that "probably" happened.

I'm sure rapes DID happen. I'm sure there WERE acts of rape-as-retaliation. Was is Soviet policy? Was it as widespread as we are being told? There is no way to know - and the data we DO have is either individual accounts of anecdotal evidence (the girl who was upstairs while another girl was raped downstairs... this anecdote is 'evidence' of only one rape), or speculation.


But - you compare that to - for example - the mass executions at a concentration camp, where evidence is immaculate... numbers of victims, names of victims, manner of execution... everything.

The 'genocide' in the camps is NOT a matter of speculation or anecdote.. it is a matter of accurate historical record.


But, for some reason, it doesn't surprise me to find Ny starting a thread appealing for sympathy for the Nazi regime...

He isn't! He is appealing for sympathy for the millions of innocent Germans, who because their government murdered millions itself, are forgotten. Just because the Nazi regime murdered millions, doesn't mean all ordinary Germans were involved. Don't they deserve to be remembered like all the others killed?

He isn't! He is appealing for sympathy for the millions of innocent Germans, who because their government murdered millions itself, are forgotten. Just because the Nazi regime murdered millions, doesn't mean all ordinary Germans were involved. Don't they deserve to be remembered like all the others killed?

I disagree with your premise. I think that is exactly what Ny had as his inspiration.

But then, that's just my opinion, based on what I have seen of our friend Ny, in his threads about the evils of Islam, and the inferior intellects of 'blacks'.

I disagree with your premise. I think that is exactly what Ny had as his inspiration.

But then, that's just my opinion, based on what I have seen of our friend Ny, in his threads about the evils of Islam, and the inferior intellects of 'blacks'.

Well I can only comment on what I have seen. In this thread I have not seen one mention of anything to do with religion (except for a small unrelated item on Christianity) or anything to do with any races. I agree completely with his argument that what came out of the end of World War Two was completely biased in favour of the Allies; but as they were the victors that was expected, and to some extent acceptable. Even today though, 60 years on, the bias continues. I will keep my thoughts on other matters to relevant threads.

Well I can only comment on what I have seen. In this thread I have not seen one mention of anything to do with religion (except for a small unrelated item on Christianity) or anything to do with any races. I agree completely with his argument that what came out of the end of World War Two was completely biased in favour of the Allies; but as they were the victors that was expected, and to some extent acceptable. Even today though, 60 years on, the bias continues. I will keep my thoughts on other matters to relevant threads.

I've agreed there were doubtless bad things done... although, I have pointed out, the data is often sketchy or entirely guesswork.

Should the Russians apologise.... maybe, but what for?

"Sorry, a load of people got relocated, some might have been killed. There may have been rapes"... not a convincing apology - it wouldn't satisfy any of the parties involved.

On the other hand - the German apologies are so much easier... they were considerate enough to keep detailed records of their inhumane treatments of others.

I've agreed there were doubtless bad things done... although, I have pointed out, the data is often sketchy or entirely guesswork.

Should the Russians apologise.... maybe, but what for?

"Sorry, a load of people got relocated, some might have been killed. There may have been rapes"... not a convincing apology - it wouldn't satisfy any of the parties involved.

On the other hand - the German apologies are so much easier... they were considerate enough to keep detailed records of their inhumane treatments of others.

Alright, I can agree with what you are saying. The thing is, I still hear Germany taking the blame for the war and being forced to pay for damage done a long time ago by other people. The fact that no-one else has to do this really annoys me. It can't be changed though. Bad things happen in war. No matter what happens the victor will always (and are able to) claim that they are in the right, even if their actions were just as bad, or worse, than the defeated. Using this logic I would argue that it is possible Germany has repaid the damage it caused far better than many of the other countries who won and think they are in the clear because of that fact. All that would need to be done to ease my mind is if the next person wanting compensation would be a German demanding money from the USA or Britain or Russia, and then them actually paying up. Not a huge request is it?

Alright, I can agree with what you are saying. The thing is, I still hear Germany taking the blame for the war and being forced to pay for damage done a long time ago by other people. The fact that no-one else has to do this really annoys me. It can't be changed though. Bad things happen in war. No matter what happens the victor will always (and are able to) claim that they are in the right, even if their actions were just as bad, or worse, than the defeated. Using this logic I would argue that it is possible Germany has repaid the damage it caused far better than many of the other countries who won and think they are in the clear because of that fact. All that would need to be done to ease my mind is if the next person wanting compensation would be a German demanding money from the USA or Britain or Russia, and then them actually paying up. Not a huge request is it?

The irony of the situation is - it was 'our' punitive actions after The Great War that basically paved the way for WWII. Some lessons just won't be learned.

The irony of the situation is - it was 'our' punitive actions after The Great War that basically paved the way for WWII. Some lessons just won't be learned.

Actually Germany helped in that as well. They put rather punitive reparations on the Russians after they surrendered. It has been suggested that allowed for the Bolshivics to gain power.

That's the problem with society. There are people who stand up and say "it's not our fault". Do you know what happens to those people? They are branded as anti-semitic neo-nazis and thrown in jail. That is the problem I am trying to highlight here. I agree with you that no matter how many apologies are made, it can't take back what happened. I just know that I would, as well as many other millions of people, would feel far more relieved that they aren't being singled out, and that some equality has been returned to the matter.

As far as I remember, nobody has yet been thrown into jail in Germany for stating that Germany today should not be blamed for the atrocities commited under the Nazi regime. You might be referring to Holocaust denial, but that is an entirely different story.

In my opinion, the guilt will play a role for Germany for a few more years to come, for one very simple reason : a good number of those people who actually committed the quoted artrocities, be that rape, murder, or simply the buerocratic organisation to enable or even order others to rape and murder, are still alive in Germany today. And so are a good few of their victims, both in Germany and Israel. As long as these people are still here, the events cannot be regarded as part of history without lasting effect on the present. They are a constant reminder of what has happened, their lives were shaped by it, on both sides.

If you think that there are no calls in Germany for a Russian apology, or even for the return of the formerly German areas that now belong to Poland, Russia and the Checz Republic, think again. But even these voices grow more and more silent as the people who were actually affected grow old and die.
The Checz Republic actually recently apologised for the circumstances under which the Germans who had been living there for generations had been forced to leave; a gesture which created mixed feelings on both sides. The Checz government was harshly criticized by nationalist groups, and the reactions in Germany seemed to implicate that the public wasn't in fact to happy to be reminded of what had happened back then.

Consider it... what value would an official apology have from a government that has almost no ties at all to the regime that allowed for those rapes? It would be an empty gesture, especially if this apology came because of pressure from outside. It would be humiliating for both sides.

. All that would need to be done to ease my mind is if the next person wanting compensation would be a German demanding money from the USA or Britain or Russia, and then them actually paying up. Not a huge request is it?

yes that would be a huge request. That would be like asking the victim of a violent crime to pay damages after he shot his robber during the course of the crime

Oh and let's have a "I think Ny_Nordland and Greater Allemania are neo-Nazis option, please".
Utterly irrelevant. The questions set by this poll are good.

Apologies are weak though. They mean little. So even though the Allies should apologise, it's meaningless.

Some people consider mass evacuation of Armenians as genocide. But interestingly, noone considers mass evacuation of Germans as genocide. Is it because germans were so evil? I mean even the milkman knew about concentration camps (sarcasm in case you didnt get it), so all those evil germans deserve to be killed and not remembered? Even if you consider it as a genocide or not, should Russians apologize? Should they also apologize for mass rapes?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_exodus_from_Eastern_Europe



http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/berlin_05.shtml



http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_rape.htm

Edit: Attitude in Russia Today:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.htmlThe Russians should apologize for the rapes and nothing else.

I wouldnt say this is a biased forum, but there are way too many commies on ns.

I wouldnt say this is a biased forum, but there are way too many commies on ns.
You've noticed it too?

I wouldnt say this is a biased forum, but there are way too many commies on ns.

Really? I think there are like half a dozen actual Communists. Perhaps you meant socialists or those who lent to the left.

However, what is your view on the question? Should the Russians apologise for the rapes, as the Germans apologised for the Holocaust, or what?

I wouldnt say this is a biased forum, but there are way too many commies on ns.
Watch out. They're here to sap and impurify our bodily fluids.

I think the Germans shoudl apologize for what they did (especially in the USSR), because wehn the allies rampaged through Germany, it was an eye for an eye

Really? I think there are like half a dozen actual Communists. Perhaps you meant socialists or those who lent to the left.
Ah yes, those too. <.<

I think the Germans shoudl apologize for what they did (especially in the USSR), because wehn the allies rampaged through Germany, it was an eye for an eye

Er... right. And the fact that they have been apologizing for the last 60 years doesn't register with you at all?

Here's an option:

Everybody should stop demanding apologies and move on.

I'll have that.

Here's an option:

Everybody should stop demanding apologies and move on.

I'll have that.

So you are saying Holocoust shouldnt be remembered every year? And Hollywood stop making 1000s of movies about evil germans on jews?
Oh btw, has anyone noticed there isnt 1 single movie telling how russians raped millions of germans while there are tonnes about bad evil germans doing bad evil things?

1) So you are saying Holocoust shouldnt be remembered every year?

2) And Hollywood stop making 1000s of movies about evil germans on jews?

Oh btw, has anyone noticed there isnt 1 single movie telling how russians raped millions of germans while there are tonnes about bad evil germans doing bad evil things?

1) No, I am not saying the Holocaust should be forgotten. Where do you get that from?

What I'm saying is that the childish and pointless game of "You did that! - Yeah, but you did that and that and that!!!" doesn't lead anywhere.

2) The world has enough crap movies already.

Watch out. They're here to sap and impurify our bodily fluids.
http://datacore.sciflicks.com/dr_strangelove/sounds/dr_strangelove_fluids.wav

So you are saying Holocoust shouldnt be remembered every year? And Hollywood stop making 1000s of movies about evil germans on jews?
Oh btw, has anyone noticed there isnt 1 single movie telling how russians raped millions of germans while there are tonnes about bad evil germans doing bad evil things?
Americans have selective memories.

So many immature flamers.

http://datacore.sciflicks.com/dr_strangelove/sounds/dr_strangelove_fluids.wav
So this is where the joke comes from?

So this is where the joke comes from?
If you've not seen this movie, run out and get a copy right now.

"Dr. Strangelove, or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb"

Arguably Stanley Kubrick's best work.

Here's another taste:

http://datacore.sciflicks.com/dr_strangelove/sounds/dr_strangelove_war_room.wav

If you've not seen this movie, run out and get a copy right now.

"Dr. Strangelove, or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb"

Arguably Stanley Kubrick's best work.

Here's another taste:

http://datacore.sciflicks.com/dr_strangelove/sounds/dr_strangelove_war_room.wav
It sounds rather funny. I'll keep it in mind. :)

It sounds rather funny. I'll keep it in mind. :)
It's brutal. It's about the end of the world. You'll love it. It's one of my all time favorites. Every NSer who tops 3000 posts should get a copy of it as a prize. :)

So you are saying Holocoust shouldnt be remembered every year? And Hollywood stop making 1000s of movies about evil germans on jews?
Oh btw, has anyone noticed there isnt 1 single movie telling how russians raped millions of germans while there are tonnes about bad evil germans doing bad evil things?

Let's at the top of my head I can think of 4 movies involving the Holocoust.

As to movies about Russians? Hell we barely teach about the Eastern Front, why would Hollywood make movies about it? There have been about 2 I can think of....

Wait you aren't suggesting the Joos are running Hollywood are you?

Let's at the top of my head I can think of 4 movies involving the Holocoust.

As to movies about Russians? Hell we barely teach about the Eastern Front, why would Hollywood make movies about it? There have been about 2 I can think of....

Wait you aren't suggesting the Joos are running Hollywood are you?
Whether or not that is so, very few movies are made about Russia and its involvement in the war (and, moreover, the USSR). It would seem Hollywood just doesn't care.

Let's at the top of my head I can think of 4 movies involving the Holocoust.

As to movies about Russians? Hell we barely teach about the Eastern Front, why would Hollywood make movies about it? There have been about 2 I can think of....

Wait you aren't suggesting the Joos are running Hollywood are you?

Hollywood also has a penchant for ignoring every other country in the war, so it's not just a Russian thing. I point out, of course, U571, Band Of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan...etc etc etc.

Stop trying to blame Russians or blame Germans. Blame nationalism. Blame out-of-control government. Blame the mob mentality.

Forget what ethnic group A did to ethnic group B. Focus on what governments around the world have done to innocent civilians time and time again, and make damn sure your government never commits such an atrocity.

I think the Russian government should acknowledge what happened, publically. An apology would be nice as a part of that.
I have relatives who fled from Allenstein in Eastern Prussia, and the stories I heard were not exactly stuff for kids.

So yeah, there you go. As for the other Allies, they have their own stuff to apologise for or acknowledge, they don't need any help from Putin.

Stop trying to blame Russians or blame Germans. Blame nationalism. Blame out-of-control government. Blame the mob mentality.

Forget what ethnic group A did to ethnic group B. Focus on what governments around the world have done to innocent civilians time and time again, and make damn sure your government never commits such an atrocity.

Sure, overall blame the governments, but the real blame falls on the individuals, such as Hitler, Stalin, and anyone else who played significant parts in mass killings.

Whether or not that is so, very few movies are made about Russia and its involvement in the war (and, moreover, the USSR). It would seem Hollywood just doesn't care.

That's probably partly because it's just not as commerically viable as a film about the role of the US, sadly. Plus when you've got a showdown between two brutal totalitarian regime, you can't imbue it with those moral overtones that are essentially to most war films.

Lamentably, the film industry is a business after all and producers have to think about what will make money. The most recent film that falls into this category (Enemy at the Gates) took a film about one of the most complex, fascinating and pivotal battles in the history of modern warfare and reduced it to a possibly historically fictional battle alleged to have taken place between two snipers and the all too important question of whether or not Jude Law would get to shag Rachel Weisz before the end of the film. - Sheer commericalisation.

That's probably partly because it's just not as commerically viable as a film about the role of the US, sadly. Plus when you've got a showdown between two brutal totalitarian regime, you can't imbue it with those moral overtones that are essentially to most war films.

Lamentably, the film industry is a business after all and producers have to think about what will make money. The most recent film that falls into this category (Enemy at the Gates) took a film about one of the most complex, fascinating and pivotal battles in the history of modern warfare and reduced it to a possibly historically fictional battle alleged to have taken place between two snipers and the all too important question of whether or not Jude Law would get to shag Rachel Weisz before the end of the film. - Sheer commericalisation.
I do not get why they do this; it isn't even good business. The majority of consumers, being human, are idiots. No question there. However, there comes a time when the more sophisticated ones, and even those among the masses, want something deeper than this tripe Hollywood markets. So, it's not a money thing. It's a lack of vision. Enough films are made about Nazi Germany and WW II to justify a few good ones about the USSR's crimes coming out. If not by Hollywood, then by some of the independent directors. Or even better, by European director-historians.

Some people consider mass evacuation of Armenians as genocide. But interestingly, noone considers mass evacuation of Germans as genocide. Is it because germans were so evil? I mean even the milkman knew about concentration camps (sarcasm in case you didnt get it), so all those evil germans deserve to be killed and not remembered? Even if you consider it as a genocide or not, should Russians apologize? Should they also apologize for mass rapes?

That's what I love about war. There aren't any real rules, and the victors write the history books, and the victors hang a few of the losers from a tree.

It was a WAR. People get HURT in WARS.

Germany lost. Get over it.

That's what I love about war. There aren't any real rules, and the victors write the history books, and the victors hang a few of the losers from a tree.

It was a WAR. People get HURT in WARS.

Germany lost. Get over it.

Prepare for an onslaught, DK. I fear you will shortly be unleashed upon...

Germany lost. Get over it.
My grandma didn't lose a war though...

Prepare for an onslaught, DK. I fear you will shortly be unleashed upon...

Indeed.

*hunkers down in a bunker for the oncoming carpet-nuking, offers Skinny a bunk*

You're the second leftist that I've ever offered protection. Feel honoured. :D


Edit: st00pid grammatical error

Please ignore this man. I dont want to listen his psycho incest comments (which he got temporary forum ban for) again...

Let's see... psycho incest comments vs psycho pro-nazi pro-racist anti-immigration nationalist xenophobia comments.

Yeah, I think you're winning the psycho commentary contest so far. But as long as you're advocating the only tactic you have against facts (ignore), take your own advice - and ignore me yourself. Go on, I dare you.

Let's see... psycho incest comments vs psycho pro-nazi pro-racist anti-immigration nationalist xenophobia comments.

Yeah, I think you're winning the psycho commentary contest so far. But as long as you're advocating the only tactic you have against facts (ignore), take your own advice - and ignore me yourself. Go on, I dare you.

Meh. You both lose. Please take your vendettas against each other elsewhere. Like in a boxing match. With a video camera and live web feed. And free popcorn. :D

Meh. You both lose. Please take your vendettas against each other elsewhere. Like in a boxing match. With a video camera and live web feed. And free popcorn. :D
Indeed. The bile spilling over in every thread is becoming tedious. TGs work well if people have disputes to resolve.

And Trostia, maybe you're luring him into doing what you want...ignoring you. :p

Meh. You both lose. Please take your vendettas against each other elsewhere. Like in a boxing match. With a video camera and live web feed. And free popcorn. :D

...but I don't approve of free popcorn. :p

...but I don't approve of free popcorn. :p
Ah, the capitalist within you surfaces. :) Charge then.

Ah, the capitalist within you surfaces. :) Charge then.
:)

Not too much, though. If you charge movie theatre prices, I'll be forced to kill you. You don't want that. :D

And orange drink. Not real orange juice, orange drink. For some reason, that tastes well with popcorn.

Whether or not that is so, very few movies are made about Russia and its involvement in the war (and, moreover, the USSR). It would seem Hollywood just doesn't care.

Hollywood cares about money. Give them a script and an audience that will see it.....then there would be movies.

They are in the US. They will tend to favor the US.

Just like Ballywood favors India.

Just blanked on the British company....Pinewood?

The aussie companies.

Why don't they make movies about the US? Not really their audiences.....

:)

Not too much, though. If you charge movie theatre prices, I'll be forced to kill you. You don't want that. :D
I'm a part-time nihilist. So I might. ;)

And orange drink. Not real orange juice, orange drink. For some reason, that tastes well with popcorn.
Price discrimination ftw! Let's charge extra for the salt, sugar, caramel etc. to put on the pop-corn. <.<

Ah, the capitalist within you surfaces. :) Charge then.

There's a capitalist within each and every one of us. But not everyone has the guts to let him at the keyboard. :D

Why don't they make movies about the US? Not really their audiences.....
Which is what I'm saying really. Europe can't expect Hollywood to portray an accurate image of its history. That's something it ought to have done by now.

I'm a part-time nihilist. So I might. ;)

I make Ivan Grozny look like Ghandi. No you don't. Unless you're an ubermasochist. Then you would.


Price discrimination ftw! Let's charge extra for the salt, sugar, caramel etc. to put on the pop-corn. <.<

Bastard. :mp5:

I'll just bring my own...

I should probably stop hijacking this thread. My apologies. Continue bickering.

I make Ivan Grozny look like Ghandi. No you don't. Unless you're an ubermasochist. Then you would.
I might be...brought along your whip? ;)

Bastard. :mp5:

I'll just bring my own...
Meh, damn hippies and their non-conformism. :rolleyes:

I should probably stop hijacking this thread. My apologies. Continue bickering.
Yes. [/hack]

Hollywood also has a penchant for ignoring every other country in the war, so it's not just a Russian thing. I point out, of course, U571, Band Of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan...etc etc etc.

U571 tanked badly.

Band and Ryan? How would their appeal have been inproved by including other countries? Band was about the war from a units perspective.

Ryan? Either you like it or you didn't. About the only thing I found really interesting was the DDay shots.

Finally, think about the perspective of others. Could you imagine what Das Boot would have been with an American director and Hollywood actors? It would have TANKED bad.

Said countries perspectives would be better served by their own script and vision.

Only a few enlightened types have thought this out. One reason why Tora Tora Tora did well was because the Japanese story was shot and managed by Japan.

Someday Hollywood will figure it out. Das Boot did ok here. Gallipoli did well here.

Americans have selective memories.

For my curiosity like what for instance.

You also assume most americans have even read much on WWII. Many get their "knowledge" from TV and movies.....

That's something it ought to have done by now.
They've tried. The problem is that these movies don't get the same sort of global audience as the US films do.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108211/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082096/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/ (excellent movie, this!)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0461658/ (not so flash, I heard)

And then there is series after series of Guido Knopp's documentaries, which are really quite excellent. I don't think anything approaching them has been produced.
http://www.zdf-enterprises.de/en/guido_knopp_documentaries.106.htm?template=d_zdfe_program&skip=6&sort=headline_de&order=asc&from=106

And this is just the German stuff. Other countries will have their own.

*snip*
I've come across this stuff. But, like you say, it's appeal isn't far-reaching enough. They have to follow La Haine's tactic, and emulate the US films in some ways. That is the only way they will get through to a larger audience.

shag Rachel Weisz before the end of the film. - Sheer commericalisation.

*starts sputtering at the thought*

You are damn right it's commercialism. I was happy to pay to see Rachels bum. ;)

They have to follow La Haine's tactic, and emulate the US films in some ways. That is the only way they will get through to a larger audience.
Perhaps, but the way Hollywood makes war movies (at least these days, I thought "Tora, Tora, Tora!" was one of the best films ever) is by cutting down all facets that may or may not have been there and reduce everything to a good v evil hero story, perhaps intertwined with a bit of drama.
You could probably emulate that, but it would become pointless.

For my curiosity like what for instance.

You also assume most americans have even read much on WWII. Many get their "knowledge" from TV and movies.....

Thank you for including the "many." THere are some people who decide to read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

THough, I must admit, Patton was a damn good movie. :D

Perhaps, but the way Hollywood makes war movies (at least these days, I thought "Tora, Tora, Tora!" was one of the best films ever) is by cutting down all facets that may or may not have been there and reduce everything to a good v evil hero story, perhaps intertwined with a bit of drama.
You could probably emulate that, but it would become pointless.
Hollywood does use some good tactics though. For instance, that documentary on the penguins? It did well. I think they spiced it up a bit to interest the common viewer. Maybe Europe should follow this approach too? It would definitely prove more appealing than the glum style it usually adopts.

Maybe Europe should follow this approach too? It would definitely prove more appealing than the glum style it usually adopts.
And make war movies that aren't gloomy? That'll be difficult, at least in Germany, because frankly, the war is a gloomy topic there.

And then there was that Italian tragicomedy about the concentration camps. I suppose that worked with the audiences, but I doubt anyone would've learned anything about European history by watching that.

"Battle of Britain" was a good movie though, but that was also a long time ago.

And make war movies that aren't gloomy? That'll be difficult, at least in Germany, because frankly, the war is a gloomy topic there.
Give the audiences what they want. The History Channel is good in making war seem more interesting to its viewers by dropping the misery involved, and just portraying the events, usually in an evocative manner.

And then there was that Italian tragicomedy about the concentration camps. I suppose that worked with the audiences, but I doubt anyone would've learned anything about European history by watching that.
Well, that is hardly their intention I guess.

"Battle of Britain" was a good movie though, but that was also a long time ago.
I think i saw it a few years ago. It eludes me though.

And make war movies that aren't gloomy? That'll be difficult, at least in Germany, because frankly, the war is a gloomy topic there.

"Battle of Britain" was a good movie though, but that was also a long time ago.

I think the best British war films by a long way are "Bridge over the river Kwai" and "A bridge too far" - both are absolutely immense and somehow manage to capture the quality of "Britishness" perfectly.

I think the Germans shoudl apologize for what they did (especially in the USSR), because wehn the allies rampaged through Germany, it was an eye for an eye

Because they haven't already?

Because you clearly state "Not like other genocides", indicating that you DO feel something about other genocides, but not this one.

That's exactly right.

*starts sputtering at the thought*

You are damn right it's commercialism. I was happy to pay to see Rachels bum. ;)

Lol, there are worse reasons to see a film I'll admit.

That's what I love about war. There aren't any real rules, and the victors write the history books, and the victors hang a few of the losers from a tree.

It was a WAR. People get HURT in WARS.

Germany lost. Get over it.

Va is in USA, right? You are using the same simplistic American approach. Get over the fact that I wont get over it.

"Some people consider mass evacuation of Armenians as genocide."

Well, killing 1,5 million of them might have been involved in the definition as well.

Va is in USA, right? You are using the same simplistic American approach. Get over the fact that I wont get over it.

Considering the fact that you are Norwegian, I don't see why you bother so much.
I'm German and I got over it....

If the Russian conduct during their push into Germany proved anything, it was that German untermenschen propaganda wasn't completely unfounded...

The Germans commeited their fare share of war crimes, but not like the mass rape experienced by German women. Wehrmacht soldeirs in the East were actively discouraged from sexual contact with Russian women due to Nazi race beliefs and even in the Nordic countries (mainly Scandinavia) where the Lebersborn program was concentrated, examples of mass rape are rare to non-existant.

If the Russian conduct during their push into Germany proved anything, it was that German untermenschen propaganda wasn't completely unfounded...

The Germans commeited their fare share of war crimes, but not like the mass rape experienced by German women. Wehrmacht soldeirs in the East were actively discouraged from sexual contact with Russian women due to Nazi race beliefs and even in the Nordic countries (mainly Scandinavia) where the Lebersborn program was concentrated, examples of mass rape are rare to non-existant.

Oh yes, the Russians were all Untermensch. Indeed. They all dragged their knuckles on the ground and scratched themselves furiously.

I'd suggest reading some more. The majority of rapes were commited not by front-line troops, but by men of penal battalions and soldiers released from POW camps and given weapons, such was the Red Army's need for soldiers. Rather ironic, in a way. By imprisoning them and angering them so, the Nazis basically created the rape. Of course, not all rapes were commited by these men, but a majority were.

Considering the fact that you are Norwegian, I don't see why you bother so much.
I'm German and I got over it....

I hardly care it enough to loose sleep over it but I care enough to make a thread about it, obviously...

If the Russian conduct during their push into Germany proved anything, it was that German untermenschen propaganda wasn't completely unfounded...

The Germans commeited their fare share of war crimes, but not like the mass rape experienced by German women. Wehrmacht soldeirs in the East were actively discouraged from sexual contact with Russian women due to Nazi race beliefs and even in the Nordic countries (mainly Scandinavia) where the Lebersborn program was concentrated, examples of mass rape are rare to non-existant.

The funny thing it was us, and not the evil germans, that treated those Lebersborn children like crap. I mean those children were totally innocent...

Being a German, the Red Army has my full backing. They had every right to do what they did.

Oh yes, the Russians were all Untermensch. Indeed. They all dragged their knuckles on the ground and scratched themselves furiously.

I'd suggest reading some more. The majority of rapes were commited not by front-line troops, but by men of penal battalions and soldiers released from POW camps and given weapons, such was the Red Army's need for soldiers. Rather ironic, in a way. By imprisoning them and angering them so, the Nazis basically created the rape. Of course, not all rapes were commited by these men, but a majority were.

When you make up crap like that, it's normal that you reach stupid conclusions...

When you make up crap like that, it's normal that you reach stupid conclusions...

Hmmm. If by 'Stupid Crap', you mean read it in The Last Battle By Cornelius Ryan, an experienced historian who spent almost a decade writing his book on the last months of the Third Reich - interviewing Russian, German, British, French and many other participants - then yes, I do come to those conclusions.

Conclusions that I believe other historians, such as Antony Beevor, have come to as well. But please. Don't let historical knowledge get in the way of your rantings...

Being a German, the Red Army has my full backing. They had every right to do what they did.

You're pathetic.

You're pathetic.

No, building industrial death camps is pathetic.
Retaliation is a usual human response.

Hmmm. If by 'Stupid Crap', you mean read it in The Last Battle By Cornelius Ryan, an experienced historian who spent almost a decade writing his book on the last months of the Third Reich - interviewing Russian, German, British, French and many other participants - then yes, I do come to those conclusions.

Conclusions that I believe other historians, such as Antony Beevor, have come to as well. But please. Don't let historical knowledge get in the way of your rantings...

I guess you are right AFTER you assume, 1 person himself can uncover everything...
In any case it took them LONG time to get over the treatment of bad evil germans...


While the war in Europe ended in May, 1945, Beevor says that the ordeal for German women in Soviet occupied areas continued. A "high proportion" of at least 15 million women who lived in the Soviet zone or were expelled from Germany's eastern provinces were raped. About two million women had illegal abortions every year between 1945 and 1948.


http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6043-11.cfm

You're pathetic.

So are you. You admitted to thinking that the genocide that the Nazis carried out was acceptable.

No, building industrial death camps is pathetic.
Retaliation is a usual human response.

Raping is a human response? You arent only pathetic but also sick. Seek professional help.

Raping is a human response? You arent only pathetic but also sick. Seek professional help.

Thanks for twisting my words.
If the crime commited is the rape, torture and murder of your whole village, I would not be surprised if you wanted to answer likewise.

I guess you are right AFTER you assume, 1 person himself can uncover everything...
In any case it took them LONG time to get over the treatment of bad evil germans...



http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6043-11.cfm

Please. Although I cited Beevor as an example, I read Berlin. A lot of his figures are either crap or hugely distorted. For example, abortion figures aren't exactly fruitful for that period, and even then that doesn't mean that Russian rapes were responsible for any significant percentage of them. Beevor has proven shit with that stuff.

Thanks for twisting my words.
If the crime commited is the rape, torture and murder of your whole village, I would not be surprised if you wanted to answer likewise.

Dont assume. I'm not primitive like you are. I can differantiate between nazi soldiers and officers and little german girls.

So are you. You admitted to thinking that the genocide that the Nazis carried out was acceptable.

When did I say it was acceptable?

Dont assume. I'm not primitive like you are. I can differantiate between nazi soldiers and officers and little german girls.

You mean 'differentiate' like the difference you make between, say, Iraqi fighters with a keffiye (sp?) and Sikhs with turbans by calling both 'rag-heads'?
Ooh, and 'primitive'! *adds new insult to collector's book*

Dont assume. I'm not primitive like you are. I can differantiate between nazi soldiers and officers and little german girls.

What are you even ranting on about now? Please, explain yourself in a slightly more clearer way, so we know what it is in particular you're attacking now.

What are you even ranting on about now? Please, explain yourself in a slightly more clearer way, so we know what it is in particular you're attacking now.

Dont you read messages I'm answering to? Or just my replies?

When did I say it was acceptable?

most recently:


Because you clearly state "Not like other genocides", indicating that you DO feel something about other genocides, but not this one.

That's exactly right.

and besides that:

I know my crimes won't be justified. I just wanna kill people.

And you don't seem to have anything against randomly executing a specific group of people:

Fine, Germany can execute everyone over the age of 50. Happy?

And remember this?


I suggest you stop blaming Russia for Soviets actions, or I might just end up blaming an australian (you), for the genocide of millions of innocent people, as well as for a war that cost far more lives than that.

What, because you don't already?

Well, you know, I didn't before, but I could do so know, and I'd feel no guilt in doing so. You don't have to apologise for the genocide, especially considering you've no relation to it, but even if I'm not going to apologise for say, the Armenian or Rwandan genocide (because I wasn't involved, not even indirectly), I'm still going to think that they were unacceptable.

You, however, do not feel anything about the genocide that the nazis carried out, which is accepting it.

Dont you read messages I'm answering to? Or just my replies?

I read your messages; unfortunately their rantings never make sense. You say you can tell the difference between Nazi officers and German Girls. Okay. So what?

and besides that:

That was passion. It's the same way that after 9/11, some people just wanted to kill muslims.

And you don't seem to have anything against randomly executing a specific group of people:

It was a hypothetical. It was in response to what someone said.

And remember this?

How is that relevant?

You, however, do not feel anything about the genocide that the nazis carried out, which is accepting it.

You are discriminating against the mentally disabled. It's not my fault I can't feel an emotional connection to the event. I don't accept it, it was bad. Or do you have something against mentally challenged, ADOLF?

Va is in USA, right? You are using the same simplistic American approach. Get over the fact that I wont get over it.

And what could you possible do about it except whine?

And what could you possible do about it except whine?

Feel bitter for some unknown reason?

Feel bitter for some unknown reason?
No. I just figure if a country starts a war, it gets to take the lumps for however it comes out.

No. I just figure if a country starts a war, it gets to take the lumps for however it comes out.

I support that assertation in view of occupation, reperations, army being destroyed, government replaced etc. But not mass rape. There's never any excuse for that behaviour, even if it is often vaguely understandable.

EDIT: I als referred to Nordland being bitter for some unknown reason, not you DK.

I support that assertation in view of occupation, reperations, army being destroyed, government replaced etc. But not mass rape. There's never any excuse for that behaviour, even if it is often vaguely understandable.

EDIT: I als referred to Nordland being bitter for some unknown reason, not you DK.
There's precious little anyone can do about it. Paying money doesn't un-rape someone.

And most of the women who were raped back then have to be over 70 years old now (if they are still alive today).

That was passion. It's the same way that after 9/11, some people just wanted to kill muslims.

And guess what, those people are despicable. You don't "just wanna kill someone"


It was a hypothetical. It was in response to what someone said.

Eh, no, you still wanted to kill people at this time, and suggested you execute everyone over 50. Not happy.


How is that relevant?

Because I didn't use to consider you worthy of putting you to blame for the Genocide that the nazis committed, but you might as well have.


You are discriminating against the mentally disabled. It's not my fault I can't feel an emotional connection to the event. I don't accept it, it was bad. Or do you have something against mentally challenged, ADOLF?

I don't care if you're mentally disabled. You could be a bloody liar for all I know, and not have any aspergers syndrome at all. Mentally disabled or not, you still fail to distance yourself from a horrible genocide, while you manage to do so from another. Therein lies your problem.

There's precious little anyone can do about it. Paying money doesn't un-rape someone.

And most of the women who were raped back then have to be over 70 years old now (if they are still alive today).

So you are saying we should stop remembering holocoust because "there's precious little anyone can do about it. Remembering it doesnt un-kill someone. And most of the jews who were tortured back then have to be over 70 years old now (if they are still alive today)"??
Many NSers either forget or unable to apply their "logic" to other things they arent opposing...

I don't care if you're mentally disabled. You could be a bloody liar for all I know, and not have any aspergers syndrome at all. Mentally disabled or not, you still fail to distance yourself from a horrible genocide, while you manage to do so from another. Therein lies your problem.

Why should I distance myself from the Holocaust? I wasn't there. My family wasn't there.

And anybody who doesn't respect my illness isn't worth talking to.

Why should I distance myself from the Holocaust? I wasn't there. My family wasn't there.

And anybody who doesn't respect my illness isn't worth talking to.

You don't have an illness. You know how I can tell? You emotionally connect yourself to a situation (the mass rapes and evacuations of the Germans, performed by the soviets), but you fail to do so with another situation, equally despicable (the mass, industrial genocide performed by the Nazis).

And guess what, I am not discriminating - I'm treating you like I would treat anyone who fails to see why genocide is unacceptable, regardless of who commits it.

And everybody should distance themselves from any genocide - It's not supposed to be human nature to accept that some of us are helping in the killings of millions of people. I'd distance myself from the Holocaust, the genocide of the germans, the Rwandan genocide, the Armenian genocide, and any other genocide you care to bring up. I wouldn't ever think it was okay, or that it was justified. It might be explained as to why they did it, just like a murderer could explain that they really liked the taste of blood or a child rapist could try to explain that he was really attracted to the child, but does it make it right? should we accept it because they had a reason to and they were 'industrial' and 'emotionless' in their pursuit of their goals?

And guess what, I am not discriminating - I'm treating you like I would treat anyone who fails to see why genocide is unacceptable, regardless of who commits it.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS ACCEPTABLE. I JUST SAID I DON'T CONNECT TO IT EMOTIONALLY. I DON'T FEEL SORROW OR GUILT. WHY IS THAT MY FAULT?

You don't have an illness. You know how I can tell? You emotionally connect yourself to a situation (the mass rapes and evacuations of the Germans, performed by the soviets), but you fail to do so with another situation, equally despicable (the mass, industrial genocide performed by the Nazis).

Fuck off. I have Asperger's Syndrome. It's a form of austism. Look it up. It runs in my family. My cousins have it, and I have it. You sir, are worse than Hitler. At least Hitler had the decency to admit he wanted to kill the disabled. But I guess I don't get any help because unlike some other mentally disabled people, I can speak!

And I can connect the the German Genocide and the Ukrainian Holocaust because I AM German and Ukrainian, stooge. I can't connect to any other genocide or mass murder.

Fuck off. I have Asperger's Syndrome. It's a form of austism. Look it up. It runs in my family. My cousins have it, and I have it. You sir, are worse than Hitler. At least Hitler had the decency to admit he wanted to kill the disabled. But I guess I don't get any help because unlike some other mentally disabled people, I can speak!Not when they were doing it. They tried to cover it up as best they could, claiming the kids died of diseases instead of telling the parents they killed them.
And I can connect the the German Genocide and the Ukrainian Holocaust because I AM German and Ukrainian, stooge. I can't connect to any other genocide or mass murder.So you can't connect to atrocities committed by Germany because your family wasn't there but you can connect to atrocities committed against Germans because you're German-Ukrainian? What utter bullshit...

I NEVER SAID IT WAS ACCEPTABLE. I JUST SAID I DON'T CONNECT TO IT EMOTIONALLY. I DON'T FEEL SORROW OR GUILT. WHY IS THAT MY FAULT?



Fuck off. I have Asperger's Syndrome. It's a form of austism. Look it up. It runs in my family. My cousins have it, and I have it. You sir, are worse than Hitler. At least Hitler had the decency to admit he wanted to kill the disabled. But I guess I don't get any help because unlike some other mentally disabled people, I can speak!

And I can connect the the German Genocide and the Ukrainian Holocaust because I AM German and Ukrainian, stooge. I can't connect to any other genocide or mass murder.

So...


You can connect to one mass Genocide, but not another.


Right...

So you are saying we should stop remembering holocoust because "there's precious little anyone can do about it. Remembering it doesnt un-kill someone. And most of the jews who were tortured back then have to be over 70 years old now (if they are still alive today)"??
Many NSers either forget or unable to apply their "logic" to other things they arent opposing...

I'm not saying you shouldn't remember it, or be upset.

But forget about retribution or compensation.

If we were to compensate everyone for every historical wrong that ever happened to their ancestors, we would all be paying each other forever.

I'm not saying you shouldn't remember it, or be upset.

But forget about retribution or compensation.

If we were to compensate everyone for every historical wrong that ever happened to their ancestors, we would all be paying each other forever.

Such a flip flop. At least have the decency not to persue it further.


And what could you possible do about it except whine?

I’ll just have to drop my two cents to this issue after there are some wrong statements.

1.) The Federal Republic of Germany is NOT the successor of the 3rd Reich according to several judgements (File reference 2BvL6/56, 2BvF1/73 and 2BvR 73/83) from the highest German court, the “Bundesverfassungsgericht” (Federal Constitution Court). The 3rd Reich, or better, the “Deutsches Reich” is continuing to be, but is incapable of action due to lack of organisation (File reference 2 BvF 1/73 from 31.07.1973).
2.) Although there were of course a lot of Germans voting for Hitler and his NSDAP, he never obtained a majority via elections. The “Reichstagswahlen” (Elections) from 06.11.1932 brought the NSDAP 33,09 % (this was a loss of two million votes compared to the election that took place in July of the same year).
From this moment on, the German people had no more chance to intervene. Anything that happened from that point on, happened behind the scenes. There was the so called “Notstandsgesetz” (Emergency act) in the Weimar constitution that enabled the elected politicians to govern the country via a presidency dictatorship.
Hindenburg saw what could happen with this possibility given by the emergency act and refused to confer that much might to only one person – Hitler in this case.
So, on 03.12.1932 he deployed Generalmajor (major general) Kurt von Schleicher (who was crossbench) as Reichskanzler (imperial chancellor).
As anyone can see, the people were not asked about this … and of course not about the things to come … Behind the scenes, Hitler, Hindenburg and von Papen kept on working on their plan, which was, to oblige von Schleicher to abdicate, which he did only a month later at 28.01.1933.
Now the time had come for the “Machtergreifung”. At 30.01.1933 von Hindenburg appointed Hitler imperial chancellor.

This is not for relativising any of the evil crap that happened later on, but I found out, that many people do not know these facts. If you are talking about this subject, even many Germans are in complete agreement with the masses who are thinking, that Hitler got almost 100 % of the votes.
This was later. And it were no ballots.


And … on topic …

I’m German. And I just don’t care if anyone appologises or not. I’m mature enough to be neutral with my opinions concerning other countries/other people. Dresden was horror. I love the English people to death, anyway. Although I do not appreciate the current US American modus operandi in some cases, I love the Americans to death, I’ve never been there, though. But you Americans have been here as our occupying force.
I never felt arrogance. Or hate. I met some morons. But large and by I think the typical American way of behavior (if there is any ‘typical’ way) is kind of cool. We, the G.I’s and me were getting along with each other very good and had much fun! Some may say: “But they destroyed your country, killed your people!!!”
“So? Did they? Look the war is over for decades, do you really think one of these soldiers took part in WWII?? Did you? Did I?”

On the other hand … Yes! There are still people calling me a Nazi, when they find out that I’m German, but I don’t care. Mostly they just think they made a brilliant joke.
And you know what? I can laugh about it! The biggest force to eliminate German patriotism and to implement an enduring remorse are the German politics and the media, though. Considering this, it may appear a little more understandable that many Germans suffer from persecution mania and transpose the German government and press actions into any other country, although remorse are talked to the German people by their own government and their own media!

For the ones who understand German … check out this link:

http://www.glasnost.de/hist/ns/nazi2.html

P.S. I’m offline now. Will answer tomorrow if there are any questions.

So you are saying we should stop remembering holocoust because "there's precious little anyone can do about it. Remembering it doesnt un-kill someone. And most of the jews who were tortured back then have to be over 70 years old now (if they are still alive today)"??
Many NSers either forget or unable to apply their "logic" to other things they arent opposing...
It bears remembering, but not revisiting every single day, in my opinion. People should learn about stuff like the Haulocaust, though.

Such a flip flop. At least have the decency not to persue it further.
It's not a flip flop. You're the one who is demanding reparations.

It's not a flip flop. You're the one who is demanding reparations.

He is a strange one. Why would a Norwegian demand reparations for Germans? Probably some kind of wannabe neonazi.

It was a declared war. Bad things happen when you loose especially when you do bad things to your enemy.

He is a strange one. Why would a Norwegian demand reparations for Germans? Probably some kind of wannabe neonazi.

It was a declared war. Bad things happen when you loose especially when you do bad things to your enemy.
Ny Nordland buys into the whole blond haired, blue-eyed, steel-jawed, Nordic Aryan bullshit.

If the Russian conduct during their push into Germany proved anything, it was that German untermenschen propaganda wasn't completely unfounded...

The Germans commeited their fare share of war crimes, but not like the mass rape experienced by German women. Wehrmacht soldeirs in the East were actively discouraged from sexual contact with Russian women due to Nazi race beliefs and even in the Nordic countries (mainly Scandinavia) where the Lebersborn program was concentrated, examples of mass rape are rare to non-existant.

You want to condemn the Russian's for their conduct upon advancing into Germany fine, but don't you dare try to absolve the German army for its conduct in Russia. Aside from being complicit in the actions of the Einsatzgruppen units that followed in their wake the German armies record of war crimes in the occupation of Russia is perhaps the most horrendous ever committed. It is estimated that 11 million Russian's died under Nazi occupation and of those 5 million of them were imprisoned in slave labour camps. And as a side note, whilst German soldiers may have been "expressly forbidden" from indulging in carnal relations with Russian peasants a set of Vulkan condoms was still part of almost every soldiers' pack.

Please. Although I cited Beevor as an example, I read Berlin. A lot of his figures are either crap or hugely distorted. For example, abortion figures aren't exactly fruitful for that period, and even then that doesn't mean that Russian rapes were responsible for any significant percentage of them. Beevor has proven shit with that stuff.

I take it you've got a more reliable source, or something more substantive as a critique than that. I've read Berlin and Stalingrad by Beevor and I both thought they were fantastic books. Also given the fact that by 1945 pretty much all the German men of a suitable age range were serving in the armed forces where indeed do you think that this massive spike in pregnancies came from?

I take it you've got a more reliable source, or something more substantive as a critique than that. I've read Berlin and Stalingrad by Beevor and I both thought they were fantastic books. Also given the fact that by 1945 pretty much all the German men of a suitable age range were serving in the armed forces where indeed do you think that this massive spike in pregnancies came from?

Who says there was a spike? The only information we saw cited here, was more abortions... which would follow naturally when the Nazi prohibitions on abortion relaxed.

And I can connect the the German Genocide and the Ukrainian Holocaust because I AM German and Ukrainian, stooge. I can't connect to any other genocide or mass murder.

I would have hoped that they very fact that you share a common humanity would be enough to enable you connect with an event as utterly abhorrent as the Holocaust.

Who says there was a spike? The only information we saw cited here, was more abortions... which would follow naturally when the Nazi prohibitions on abortion relaxed.

And given that the overwhelming majority of the German men of age were fighting in the Wehrmacht by this point and those that weren't were often executed or detained by the advancing Russian army, who pray, do you feel was doing the fucking?

And given that the overwhelming majority of the German men of age were fighting in the Wehrmacht by this point and those that weren't were often executed or detained by the advancing Russian army, who pray, do you feel was doing the fucking?

You speculate wildly, plucking 'figures' from the air that aren't even dignified with being 'figures' ('the overwhlming majority'), and make nebulous claims. And yet, I am the one expected to explain my argument?

If this were a trial, you would be finding Russia guilty based on purely circumstantial evidence... i.e. there were a lot of pregnant German girls wanting abortions, and YOU think they must have been raped, and YOU can't explain how else they all wanted abortions, and YOU can't explain any other way in which they could all have become pregnant.

You also choose to ignore the fact that the persons who MIGHT have been the fathers of the unwanted, if they WERE German, could easily BE the 'parents' and still be on the front line, or captured/fighting elsewhere.

It's not like a sudden wave of German girls realised 'hey, today I'm pregnant, better get something done'. By the time they would have got abortions, it is likely they'd BEEN pregnant for a little while...

Is there anything Germans havent apologized for, regarding WW2?

They appologised in the past tense but the repentance needs to be continual. Many German exchange students I have talked to say that they percieve Germany's role in WWII as something about on the level of america's involvement in the Vietnam war. The attrocieties of Germany under the third reich are being downplayed by the German educational system. This kind of thing goes on everywhere in all countries, except perhaps Leichtenstein, but is still wrong.

Germany has decided to employ the idea of apologise and forget with themselves. The apology should be accepted and nothing should be held against the people of Germany, but the moment that the reason for the apology is forgotten the apology becomes meaningless.

The crimes of Soviet Russia are widely accepted as being of a far greater magnitude than the crimes of Nazi Germany. The people of Russia have already offered the greatest apology possible by overthrowing the system that comitted the crimes. Germany can make no such claim.

They appologised in the past tense but the repentance needs to be continual. Many German exchange students I have talked to say that they percieve Germany's role in WWII as something about on the level of america's involvement in the Vietnam war. The attrocieties of Germany under the third reich are being downplayed by the German educational system. This kind of thing goes on everywhere in all countries, except perhaps Leichtenstein, but is still wrong.

Germany has decided to employ the idea of apologise and forget with themselves. The apology should be accepted and nothing should be held against the people of Germany, but the moment that the reason for the apology is forgotten the apology becomes meaningless.

The crimes of Soviet Russia are widely accepted as being of a far greater magnitude than the crimes of Nazi Germany. The people of Russia have already offered the greatest apology possible by overthrowing the system that comitted the crimes. Germany can make no such claim.

DOWNPLAYED???
Honestly, I went to school in Germany for 13 years, and there was not one sinlge year in which WW II and the Holocaust wasn't on the curriculum of at least one subject, be that history, ethics, arts or literature. It was discussed in detail, it was viewed from every possible angle. It was in no way downplayed, I can assure you.
However, the way people react to the information and use it to construct their view of the world might be different. Detailed information on the Vietnam war doesn't really come into the curriculum, so I'm guessing that rather than downplaying Germany's role, they had an exaggerated perception of the role of the US in the Vietnam war...

They appologised in the past tense but the repentance needs to be continual. Many German exchange students I have talked to say that they percieve Germany's role in WWII as something about on the level of america's involvement in the Vietnam war. The attrocieties of Germany under the third reich are being downplayed by the German educational system. This kind of thing goes on everywhere in all countries, except perhaps Leichtenstein, but is still wrong.

Germany has decided to employ the idea of apologise and forget with themselves. The apology should be accepted and nothing should be held against the people of Germany, but the moment that the reason for the apology is forgotten the apology becomes meaningless.

The crimes of Soviet Russia are widely accepted as being of a far greater magnitude than the crimes of Nazi Germany. The people of Russia have already offered the greatest apology possible by overthrowing the system that comitted the crimes. Germany can make no such claim.

I can't speak for all German teachers and students, but as far as the curriculum is concerned, Germans are supposed to be confronted with the full range of Nazi warcrimes. The controversy surrounding the discussions of the rapes and expulsions mentioned here or the allied bombings of German cities are so strong today precisely because most educated Germans are sensitive to the fact they must never relativate what happened.

Like in all countries, you get bigoted idiots who do not care for the suffering of "others" and think the rest of the world should just get over it. That is not a majority position. If there are indeed any German Neo-Nazis active here they will be well aware of how little love most voters hold for them.

I myself am not German but have lived most of my life there. My family history involves several of the allied powers and I've learned to be critical of all of them regardless of who "my people" may or may not be. Decent education should do that for anyone.

As for the crimes of Stalinist Russia being "far greater" I have serious doubts. It is a ridiculous thing to try and compare. All crimes should be atoned for, and that is the tiny Kernel of reason in the original poster's provocative stance. Such things can be maybe be explained - after the German record, Russians could hardly be well-diposed - but not justified.

You speculate wildly, plucking 'figures' from the air that aren't even dignified with being 'figures' ('the overwhlming majority'), and make nebulous claims. And yet, I am the one expected to explain my argument?

If this were a trial, you would be finding Russia guilty based on purely circumstantial evidence... i.e. there were a lot of pregnant German girls wanting abortions, and YOU think they must have been raped, and YOU can't explain how else they all wanted abortions, and YOU can't explain any other way in which they could all have become pregnant.

You also choose to ignore the fact that the persons who MIGHT have been the fathers of the unwanted, if they WERE German, could easily BE the 'parents' and still be on the front line, or captured/fighting elsewhere.

It's not like a sudden wave of German girls realised 'hey, today I'm pregnant, better get something done'. By the time they would have got abortions, it is likely they'd BEEN pregnant for a little while...

:rolleyes:


But some women were deeply shaken by what they witnessed in Germany. Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. "The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty," she recounted later. "It was an army of rapists."


Edit: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.html

:rolleyes:

And another quality response from Ny Nordland.

DOWNPLAYED???
Honestly, I went to school in Germany for 13 years, and there was not one sinlge year in which WW II and the Holocaust wasn't on the curriculum of at least one subject, be that history, ethics, arts or literature. It was discussed in detail, it was viewed from every possible angle. It was in no way downplayed, I can assure you.
However, the way people react to the information and use it to construct their view of the world might be different. Detailed information on the Vietnam war doesn't really come into the curriculum, so I'm guessing that rather than downplaying Germany's role, they had an exaggerated perception of the role of the US in the Vietnam war...

Please accept my apologies for making such a generalization. All I can attest to is that many of my German friends have complained about the treatment of the Holocaust by their schools back home.

For whatever areas in which this may be occuring, I maintain my previous stance. All I can do is offer my apologies to areas such as yours that were carelessly included in my general criticism.

:rolleyes:

Edit: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.html

Do you have a point to make?

You have one witness, who says she saw Russian soldiers raping anyone from eight to eighty.

She is ONE witness. She may have seen rapes, I'm not denying there were any. Was it systematic? Did she see the ONLY rapes that took place?

How is it she saw all these rapes? Is there even any evidence she was there?

The Guardian article cites her friendship with a popular scientist... as though that adds credence to her account.


Of course - is it even worth pointing out that there was a sudden spike in abortions (which, like I've said, most likely follows removal of the Nazi prohibition)... and yet little information about how the abortions fit CHRONOLOGICALLY with the advancing Russian army?

For example - if all the abortions took place the week BEFORE the Russian frontline... it would place a very different complexion on the issue.

I can suggest one field where more needs to be done in Germany, although that too is now happening: Insitutional history, mostly by companies and some of the more conservative think tanks.

If you read German institutional histories, e.g. of universities, businesses, public administrations, the military etc. etc. etc. you get the impression that 1933 to 1945 just didn't happen. It was just the Nazis, who somehow appeared from and disappeared to nowhere. Nobody else was part of anything. One of the triggers for the '68 movement in West Germany (East Germany until then having been far more critical but at the same time more doctrinaire about the past) was that students questioned the mantle of silence with which society blanketed its past. But after that the telling of history changed at least in most academic circles. Young Germans are sick and tired about hearing so much about WWII, but the message tends to get through.

Do you have a point to make?

You have one witness, who says she saw Russian soldiers raping anyone from eight to eighty.

She is ONE witness. She may have seen rapes, I'm not denying there were any. Was it systematic? Did she see the ONLY rapes that took place?

How is it she saw all these rapes? Is there even any evidence she was there?

The Guardian article cites her friendship with a popular scientist... as though that adds credence to her account.


Of course - is it even worth pointing out that there was a sudden spike in abortions (which, like I've said, most likely follows removal of the Nazi prohibition)... and yet little information about how the abortions fit CHRONOLOGICALLY with the advancing Russian army?

For example - if all the abortions took place the week BEFORE the Russian frontline... it would place a very different complexion on the issue.


There were numerous rapes alright. A defeinite number is not known to me, nor do I think anyone has it. There are various other explanations for abortions too, such as the understanding that rebuilding would require, long, tough labour, often by single women as the men remained in POW camps, without more hungry mouths to feed. The change in restrictions would also play a part. But bad things certainly did happen. One reason certain commanders such as Bersarin in Berlin were so popular with the locals is because they cracked down on Russian troops acting out of line and tackled supply problems. For too long it was a taboo subject, which allowed the issue to be cornered by the far right and western cold warriors.

They shouldn't be allowed to keep it.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS ACCEPTABLE. I JUST SAID I DON'T CONNECT TO IT EMOTIONALLY. I DON'T FEEL SORROW OR GUILT. WHY IS THAT MY FAULT?



Fuck off. I have Asperger's Syndrome. It's a form of austism. Look it up. It runs in my family. My cousins have it, and I have it. You sir, are worse than Hitler. At least Hitler had the decency to admit he wanted to kill the disabled. But I guess I don't get any help because unlike some other mentally disabled people, I can speak!

And I can connect the the German Genocide and the Ukrainian Holocaust because I AM German and Ukrainian, stooge. I can't connect to any other genocide or mass murder.

Okay, I'll agree that you never said that you agreed with what the Nazis did, or even found it acceptable. However, you advocated a genocide against the Russians for what the Soviets did back in 1945, hardly a good justification regardless of whether you look at it emotionally or mentally. Therefore, there is at least one genocide you were or would be willing to support, and in fact even suggested carrying out at one point (albeit probably at a rather heated moment, but still, even at a heated moment I wouldn't be saying "omg, kill all americans! they suck, lol").

First of all, it's kinda bullshit, because however much you'd like it, I bet you've never lived in Germany or Ukraine and you've no more reason to connect with them than you have to connect with the Armenians, the Rwandans or the Russians or the mentally disabled, among others, that were executed by Hitler. Either you can connect with other people, or you can't, make a choice please.

Know, this is the internet, anything you or I say can be complete and total bullshit and that's why I can doubt your aspergers syndrome. Because you might just be lying about it. It very much seems this way, since you go from saying "I can't emotionally connect to it!" to "This affected me very personally!" when it didn't at all.

Do you have a point to make?

You have one witness, who says she saw Russian soldiers raping anyone from eight to eighty.

*SNIP*

Well much as I hate to say anything that will support our wannabe neo-nazi.

I worked with an old-timer who was in WWII at the very end and into the occupation.

He told stories of a Russian troop train pulling up and some of theirs going on a civilian train and attacking civilians.

He said a US MP couldn't take it anymore, pulled his side arm, went aboard an started shooting Russians. He was dragged away and sent home.

The old timer said "there are incidents like that you won't read about"

He also told one story about the time he was taking a ride on train and two drunk Russian soldiers start giving him crap. He said a German sat next to him and asked if they were bothering him. He tried to shrug it off and the German said don't do anything, we will take care of it. They went through a tunnel and when they came out the two Russians were missing.

He said he didn't ask because he didn't want to know. He also mentioned the guy he talked to, wasn't a conductor......

So crap did go down.

Hmm should I mention the story he told about a black regiment and a southern regiment fighting in a town for 3 days? ;)

He said a US MP couldn't take it anymore, pulled his side arm, went aboard an started shooting Russians. He was dragged away and sent home.

I would like to commend this MP, whoever he might have been. No soldier should be permitted to merely attack civilians, and in such a situation, I don't see many alternatives to shooting the soldiers doing the attacking.

Hmm should I mention the story he told about a black regiment and a southern regiment fighting in a town for 3 days? ;)
Yes!!! :D Grandfather, tell us a story :p

Come on, go ahead. Do tell, please ;)

Yes!!! :D Grandfather, tell us a story :p

Come on, go ahead. Do tell, please ;)

Well I forget the name of the town. It might have even been a village.

The guy said he was with a friend and doing some sight seeing. They were in town when the Southern Regiment for what ever reason setup outside of it. The next day a Black regiment appeared. The commands of both knew that logistics had screwed up but they were smart enough to have them setup on the other side.

Over the next couple days there were growing incidents of verbal exchanges.

One night they were in a hoffbrau. He said the one thing that he always remembered was the fact that they table they were at was on a raised platform about the hight of the other tables. He never could figure out why.

As they were eating (which was really drinking ;) ), soldiers from both regiments started trickling in. His friend said this was going to be bad. But they continued drinking. At one point a black fellow came in with a girl on his arm. He said he and his friend looked at each other with a comment of "ohoh" Sure enough the Southern guys were chatting to each other when one of them finally walked up to the couple and said some nasty things. The couple tried to walk past him and the guy cracked the other guy on the head with a stein. At that very second everything started flying and they charged each other.

The two guys kept drinking while they watched the fight. He smiled and said what was funny was the fact their server brought them a couple more rounds while this was going on.

Well eventually the fight spilled into the streets and more guys came from both camps.

He said command had to truck in units from 50-100 miles away to break it up.

At first I didn't believe him but then why would you make something like that up? Oh well. I think I got the majority of it accurate. ;)

Well much as I hate to say anything that will support our wannabe neo-nazi.

I worked with an old-timer who was in WWII at the very end and into the occupation...

..So crap did go down.

Hmm should I mention the story he told about a black regiment and a southern regiment fighting in a town for 3 days? ;)

No one is denying bad things happened. It was a literal warzone... but all we get are speculations and anecdotal evidence. I don't know how we can seriously expect any 'official' response to rumours and speculations.

You speculate wildly, plucking 'figures' from the air that aren't even dignified with being 'figures' ('the overwhlming majority'), and make nebulous claims. And yet, I am the one expected to explain my argument?

If this were a trial, you would be finding Russia guilty based on purely circumstantial evidence... i.e. there were a lot of pregnant German girls wanting abortions, and YOU think they must have been raped, and YOU can't explain how else they all wanted abortions, and YOU can't explain any other way in which they could all have become pregnant.

You also choose to ignore the fact that the persons who MIGHT have been the fathers of the unwanted, if they WERE German, could easily BE the 'parents' and still be on the front line, or captured/fighting elsewhere.

It's not like a sudden wave of German girls realised 'hey, today I'm pregnant, better get something done'. By the time they would have got abortions, it is likely they'd BEEN pregnant for a little while...

This irks me somewhat since I have a massive pile of books sitting on my shelves at home right now many of which would be able to shed light on this subject. Sadly I can't recall exact figures offhand (you're disappointed I know) and I won't be able to access the books for a good week or so for reasons that I won't bore you with.

However, from what I recall, from the research done by Anthony Beevor in the book "Berlin" the massive spike in abortions did not coincide with the arrival of the Russian forces but rather a suitable time afterwards.

Not that I mean to use this as evidence aid my position but I felt it worth mentioning. When the Russians captured the Reichstag building in 1945 many Russians took to graffitting the walls. One of the many lines written on the walls of that ruined building was "we have paid you back in full".

This irks me somewhat since I have a massive pile of books sitting on my shelves at home right now many of which would be able to shed light on this subject. Sadly I can't recall exact figures offhand (you're disappointed I know) and I won't be able to access the books for a good week or so for reasons that I won't bore you with.

However, from what I recall, from the research done by Anthony Beevor in the book "Berlin" the massive spike in abortions did not coincide with the arrival of the Russian forces but rather a suitable time afterwards.

Not that I mean to use this as evidence aid my position but I felt it worth mentioning. When the Russians captured the Reichstag building in 1945 many Russians took to graffitting the walls. One of the many lines written on the walls of that ruined building was "we have paid you back in full".

Whilst I wouldn't doubt that some of those abortions may have been due to rape by Soviet soldiers, other factors should be taken into consideration:

- SS/Wehrmacht soldiers deciding all is lost and doing whatever they want before being killed, or believing they will be

- Civilians themselves taking advantage of the war to rape; enough of them pillaged for this to be a fair factor to consider

- Husbands/Boyfriends/Lovers deserting from the front-lines or going on leave just before the last offensive and getting women pregnant.

Those are just some factors that might show how the abortion rate got so high. However, there don't even seem to be even vague figures as to how many abortions there were, or what caused them. Yes, some eye-witnesses saw Russians soldiers rape; I'm not denying it happened, as it did, particularly amongst penal and released-POW units. However, I believe just as many witnesses could be found to testify that all of the options above also occured.

This irks me somewhat since I have a massive pile of books sitting on my shelves at home right now many of which would be able to shed light on this subject. Sadly I can't recall exact figures offhand (you're disappointed I know) and I won't be able to access the books for a good week or so for reasons that I won't bore you with.

However, from what I recall, from the research done by Anthony Beevor in the book "Berlin" the massive spike in abortions did not coincide with the arrival of the Russian forces but rather a suitable time afterwards.

Not that I mean to use this as evidence aid my position but I felt it worth mentioning. When the Russians captured the Reichstag building in 1945 many Russians took to graffitting the walls. One of the many lines written on the walls of that ruined building was "we have paid you back in full".

Which could have referred entirely to the house-by-house fighting that the Russian soldiers had been doing earlier in Russian cities, being 'repaid' in bringing the war into German cities... no?

Which could have referred entirely to the house-by-house fighting that the Russian soldiers had been doing earlier in Russian cities, being 'repaid' in bringing the war into German cities... no?

Even this form of "repayment" is essentially based on bringing destruction and death to the German population.

My Opinion:

Ny Norland is a

http://141.157.157.99/Gary/Troll.jpg

...Lebersborn...
What the fuck is a "Lebersborn"?

When you make up crap like that, it's normal that you reach stupid conclusions...
It's true though. My grandma said that as well - the front line troops were okay. They just told everyone to stay put somewhere and wait, didn't touch them, didn't yell at them.

It was the second and mainly the third line - pretty much untrained farmers' boys and reserves that did the stuff.

If you read German institutional histories, e.g. of universities, businesses, public administrations, the military etc. etc. etc. you get the impression that 1933 to 1945 just didn't happen. It was just the Nazis, who somehow appeared from and disappeared to nowhere. Nobody else was part of anything. One of the triggers for the '68 movement in West Germany (East Germany until then having been far more critical but at the same time more doctrinaire about the past) was that students questioned the mantle of silence with which society blanketed its past. But after that the telling of history changed at least in most academic circles. Young Germans are sick and tired about hearing so much about WWII, but the message tends to get through.
That is a pretty good summary. I agree.

I actually still have a few of my dad's old history books from school. There is a huge chapter on the Weimar Republic, and the next chapter is the occupation. What happened in between? "Don't ask kiddo, I don't wanna talk about it!"

The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are gone and the people who fought World War II are dead or not far from it. The time for apologies is over. However, we should all look at the past and learn from those atrocities, so that they may never again be committed.

What the fuck is a "Lebersborn"?


It's true though. My grandma said that as well - the front line troops were okay. They just told everyone to stay put somewhere and wait, didn't touch them, didn't yell at them.

It was the second and mainly the third line - pretty much untrained farmers' boys and reserves that did the stuff.


That is a pretty good summary. I agree.

I actually still have a few of my dad's old history books from school. There is a huge chapter on the Weimar Republic, and the next chapter is the occupation. What happened in between? "Don't ask kiddo, I don't wanna talk about it!"


*Lebensborn

The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are gone and the people who fought World War II are dead or not far from it. The time for apologies is over. However, we should all look at the past and learn from those atrocities, so that they may never again be committed.

Learning from past mistakes involve acknowledging those mistakes and at least some form of apology. Not this:


The subject of the Red Army's mass rapes in Germany has been so repressed in Russia that even today veterans refuse to acknowledge what really happened. The handful prepared to speak openly, however, are totally unrepentant. "They all lifted their skirts for us and lay on the bed," said the leader of one tank company. He even went on to boast that "two million of our children were born" in Germany.

The capacity of Soviet officers to convince themselves that most of the victims were either happy with their fate, or at least accepted that it was their turn to suffer after what the Wehrmacht had done in Russia, is striking. "Our fellows were so sex-starved," a Soviet major told a British journalist at the time, "that they often raped old women of sixty, seventy or even eighty - much to these grandmothers' surprise, if not downright delight."

Learning from past mistakes involve acknowledging those mistakes and at least some form of apology. Not this:

Yes, I suppose you are correct in some way, but it is too late. The army and government that did these things no longer exists. There is no more Soviet Union. Asking Russia to say they're sorry is like asking Germany's government the same. They're not the ones that did it, Hitler and Stalin's regimes are. I suppose you could track down all the old timers and ask for "I'm sorry" cards, but it really seems like a "too little, too late," thing. Perhaps a better documented history of the subject would be bettet than anything.

Yes, I suppose you are correct in some way, but it is too late. The army and government that did these things no longer exists. There is no more Soviet Union. Asking Russia to say they're sorry is like asking Germany's government the same. They're not the ones that did it, Hitler and Stalin's regimes are. I suppose you could track down all the old timers and ask for "I'm sorry" cards, but it really seems like a "too little, too late," thing. Perhaps a better documented history of the subject would be bettet than anything.

Keep that in mind when Russians make flambouyant parades for the actions of their "heroic" soldiers every year.

*Lebensborn
Still not a word...

Still not a word...

Lebensborn Children. It's a nick name, you could have googled it. Here, took 5 seconds...

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,336916,00.html

Still not a word...

Hmmm. Let's see. Lebensraum means living room. So Lebensborn = Living...Born? Those who were born living?

Actually, I think its neonazi slang for a pure Aryan. Landborn - born into proper land. Some crap like that.

Hmmm. Let's see. Lebensraum means living room. So Lebensborn = Living...Born? Those who were born living?

Actually, I think its neonazi slang for a pure Aryan. Landborn - born into proper land. Some crap like that.

LOL :rolleyes:

Lebensborn Children. It's a nick name, you could have googled it. Here, took 5 seconds...

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,336916,00.html

Oh god, I was partially right. One of Himmler's insane schemes. And one of his saner ones, actually.


For a pig farmer, that man was completely off his rockers...

LOL :rolleyes:

Please. Given the rubbish you've been spouting, it was a fair guess. Anyway, what happened to those children is unacceptable.

Keep that in mind when Russians make flambouyant parades for the actions of their "heroic" soldiers every year.

Well, considering the Red Army's WWII soldiers probably retired decades ago, I don't see the harm. Unless they're saying "YAY, OUR SOVIET SOLDIERS RAPED PEOPLE OVER 50 YEARS AGO! GO MOTHERLAND! PRAISE STALIN," I don't see the issue with honoring current soldiers. Unless they're doing the same thing, in which case, BAD RUSSIA! BAD! I'm not going to crucify Russia for the Soviet Union's actions just the same as I'm not going to crucify Germany for the Nazi years. They're different places now and they should be allowed to move on without the darkness of the past constantly being smeared in their faces.

Well, considering the Red Army's WWII soldiers probably retired decades ago, I don't see the harm. Unless they're saying "YAY, OUR SOVIET SOLDIERS RAPED PEOPLE OVER 50 YEARS AGO! GO MOTHERLAND! PRAISE STALIN," I don't see the issue with honoring current soldiers. Unless they're doing the same thing, in which case, BAD RUSSIA! BAD! I'm not going to crucify Russia for the Soviet Union's actions just the same as I'm not going to crucify Germany for the Nazi years. They're different places now and they should be allowed to move on without the darkness of the past constantly being smeared in their faces.

Oh I should have speciefied I meant WW2 victory parades...

Please. Given the rubbish you've been spouting, it was a fair guess. Anyway, what happened to those children is unacceptable.

No shit...

Lebensborn Children.
Which doesn't make it any more of a word. Unless it's Norwegian of course, in which case I take that back.
I'm just quite used to all sorts of people literally making up words that they think sound German.

It's a nick name, you could have googled it. Here, took 5 seconds...
You should know that I don't trust your kind as far as I can throw you.

Keep that in mind when Russians make flambouyant parades for the actions of their "heroic" soldiers every year.

You seem to have a real problem with those subhumanoid Russians, and absolutely none with Nazis. Your entire time is spent in defense of nazi viewpoints and nazi Germany. Do you HONESTLY wonder why people call you a nazi? Frankly, it's not a flame - the only way you could show yourself to be more of a nazi was if you wore an SS uniform.

You seem to have a real problem with those subhumanoid Russians, and absolutely none with Nazis. Your entire time is spent in defense of nazi viewpoints and nazi Germany. Do you HONESTLY wonder why people call you a nazi? Frankly, it's not a flame - the only way you could show yourself to be more of a nazi was if you wore an SS uniform.


Maybe we should point out some of the subhumans have viking ancestors. ;)

Maybe we should point out some of the subhumans have viking ancestors. ;)

LIAR! No Nordic, Aryan blood has ever been sullied by those Untermenches!

only apology Russia is ever likely to give Germany for the Great Patroitic War is a nuke

They really hate the Germans, not just the Nazis, but the Germans in Russia.

The only people who scare the Russians more than the Germans are the Chinese.

Which makes current efforts by Putin to ally with China particularly interesting. Apparently he is more scared of the US.

Or at least Bush.

The Russians are entitled to their parade every year, and their great big statue of Mother Russia at Volgograd (ie; Stalingrad), and the seige of Leningrad alone is enough reason for the Russians not to forget.

only apology Russia is ever likely to give Germany for the Great Patroitic War is a nuke

They really hate the Germans, not just the Nazis, but the Germans in Russia.

The only people who scare the Russians more than the Germans are the Chinese.

Which makes current efforts by Putin to ally with China particularly interesting. Apparently he is more scared of the US.

Or at least Bush.

The Russians are entitled to their parade every year, and their great big statue of Mother Russia at Volgograd (ie; Stalingrad), and the seige of Leningrad alone is enough reason for the Russians not to forget.
Indeed. Russia is far too proud and caught up in delusions of her own grandeur to ever apologise. One day she might grovel though. Who knows.

only apology Russia is ever likely to give Germany for the Great Patroitic War is a nuke

They really hate the Germans, not just the Nazis, but the Germans in Russia.

The only people who scare the Russians more than the Germans are the Chinese.


Well, you're definitely not a historian. Russo-German relations are fairly strong nowadays.

Well, you're definitely not a historian. Russo-German relations are fairly strong nowadays.
They were strong. Merkel is far more critical of Putin than her predecessor. Which is good; Russia needs to be told what the West really thinks of it. As the Economist mentioned in its article, it lives for flattery. If people flatter it, it will continue what it's doing now. So it must be scolded.

Even this form of "repayment" is essentially based on bringing destruction and death to the German population.

So - the Russians should have fought a war that skirted around the Germans, in case any got hurt?

Where's the "Why can't we just let begones be begones?"-option?

What a load of malarkey.

I'd say that the only real evil people in WWII were Hitler, Stalin, and other leaders within Russia, Nazi Germany, etc. Most soldiers in Nazi Germany were just kids like in other countries, fighting for their country.

A lot of them decided not to go back to Germany after the war because not only did they feel betrayed, but a lot of the people didn't want them there.

It's a load of crap that today people still think that the Germans soldiers during World War II were evil.

Or that the Japanese soldiers, who were told all their lives that the Emperor was a god, and that they should give their lives for him, were evil. I'm pretty sure that if you were taught something your entire life, you'd do something like blow yourself up, too.

And then they glorify the allies. Neither side should look better or worse.

Of course, we have the right to know that Hitler was an evil bastard, or that Stalin was an evil bastard..

Zukariaa']
It's a load of crap that today people still think that the Germans soldiers during World War II were evil.

Or that the Japanese soldiers, who were told all their lives that the Emperor was a god, and that they should give their lives for him, were evil. I'm pretty sure that if you were taught something your entire life, you'd do something like blow yourself up, too.
Ah but did they commit evil acts?

Ah but did they commit evil acts?
Yes. And so did the allies. Americans, Brits, every one of them that fought.

To kill someone is evil whichever way you look at it. They were both fighting for what they believed was right. We thought they were evil people, and they thought we were evil people.

The truth is that the soldiers themselves were not evil. Most of them were good people. Once you join the army, you really have no choice about what you do. The commanders ordered them to do things, and the commanders should take full responsibility. Not the soldiers.

Zukariaa']The commanders ordered them to do things, and the commanders should take full responsibility. Not the soldiers.

Actually soldiers did things on their own as well.

In "A stranger to myself" there were discriptions such as German Soldier shooting a man and a woman because they wouldn't hand over lard. A group of soldiers making a female prisoner dance while the put boot polish on her breasts, another cutting of the legs of a dead Cossack so he could warm the frozen legs so he could get the boots.

The fact they were good people doesn't eliminate the fact they could do evil things.

Nobody is born evil. Nobody wakes up one day and decides to be evil. Even Hitler would argue he wasn't evil.....

Actually soldiers did things on their own as well.

In "A stranger to myself" there were discriptions such as German Soldier shooting a man and a woman because they wouldn't hand over lard. A group of soldiers making a female prisoner dance while the put boot polish on her breasts, another cutting of the legs of a dead Cossack so he could warm the frozen legs so he could get the boots.

The fact they were good people doesn't eliminate the fact they could do evil things.

Nobody is born evil. Nobody wakes up one day and decides to be evil. Even Hitler would argue he wasn't evil.....
Anyone can do evil things. The fact is that they were not evil.

Now, Hitler could argue all he wanted, that doesn't change that he ordered the killing of millions of people and didn't seem to care.

My point is that we shouldn't be taught that the Germans were evil. Yes, in my history class in 7th grade, my teacher would say,"And the Germans were evil! They killed people because they were Nazi's and Germans were bad!"

Yet another thread shut down because people just can't stop flaming. Enjoy your bans.

- The Most Glorious Hack
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