NationStates Jolt Archive

Some people consider mass evacuation of Armenians as genocide. But interestingly, noone considers mass evacuation of Germans as genocide. Is it because germans were so evil? I mean even the milkman knew about concentration camps (sarcasm in case you didnt get it), so all those evil germans deserve to be killed and not remembered? Even if you consider it as a genocide or not, should Russians apologize? Should they also apologize for mass rapes?


The Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or the Armenian Massacre) refers to the forced mass evacuation and related deaths of hundreds of thousands or over a million Armenians, during the government of the Young Turks (Committee of Union and Progress) from 1915 to 1917 in the Ottoman Empire.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide


The remaining German inhabitants were expelled or fled from present-day Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, today's Kaliningrad Oblast, and other East European countries. Up to 16.5 million Germans of the post-war population were forced to leave. Those who fled in fear of the Red Army were banned from returning. Even though some German dwellers were persecuted because of their activities during the war the only reasons for their expulsion was their ethnicity as Germans. They were sent to makeshift camps or cities in western Germany, mostly according to their Landsmannschaft.

According to some German sources, more than 2.5 million lost their lives during this process. other German, Czech and Polish sources give a much lower estimate (Czech historians arguing that most of estimated population drop is because of soldiers killed at the front). The actual population transfer included about 7 million from former eastern Germany, 1.5 million from Poland in the borders of 1938 (total of 5.075 million from new borders, see Oder-Neisse Line), 2.5 million from Czechoslovakia, around 2 million from the Soviet Union, 240,000 from Hungary, 300,000 from Romania, and another 1 million from other Eastern European regions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_exodus_from_Eastern_Europe


Based on contemporary hospital reports and on surging abortion rates in the following months, it is estimated that up to two million German women were raped during the last six months of World War Two, around 100,000 of them in Berlin. One woman remembered hiding in the loft of her apartment block, ready to jump out of the window if she was detected, whilst her best friend was being gang raped by Soviet soldiers in the apartment below.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/berlin_05.shtml


He estimates that "a 'high proportion' of at least 15 million women who lived in the Soviet zone or were expelled from Germany's eastern provinces were raped." Until recent years, East German women from the World War II era referred to the Red Army war memorial in Berlin as "the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist."


http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_rape.htm

Edit: Attitude in Russia Today:


The subject of the Red Army's mass rapes in Germany has been so repressed in Russia that even today veterans refuse to acknowledge what really happened. The handful prepared to speak openly, however, are totally unrepentant. "They all lifted their skirts for us and lay on the bed," said the leader of one tank company. He even went on to boast that "two million of our children were born" in Germany.

The capacity of Soviet officers to convince themselves that most of the victims were either happy with their fate, or at least accepted that it was their turn to suffer after what the Wehrmacht had done in Russia, is striking. "Our fellows were so sex-starved," a Soviet major told a British journalist at the time, "that they often raped old women of sixty, seventy or even eighty - much to these grandmothers' surprise, if not downright delight."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.html

The Russians should apologise, give us back all our land and our shit, and then burn down all their major cities. That was not a joke or sarcasm.

So what about the mass evacuation of Russians by Wehrmacht and ErsatzKommando Units during Barbarossa? The mass rapes and executions commited then? Though I'm not condoning what the Soviets did, the Germans then were hardly any better.

The Russians should apologise, give us back all our land and our shit, and then burn down all their major cities. That was not a joke or sarcasm.

Yeah, maybe you should shut the fuck up. That's not a joke or sarcasm either.

Yeah, maybe you should shut the fuck up. That's not a joke or sarcasm either.

Apologise for your war crimes, ally!

Apologise for your war crimes, ally!

Calm down old boy. Look, what the Russians did was terrible. As was what the Germans did. I don't think either side can claim the moral high ground in this situation.

So what about the mass evacuation of Russians by Wehrmacht and ErsatzKommando Units during Barbarossa? The mass rapes and executions commited then? Though I'm not condoning what the Soviets did, the Germans then were hardly any better.

Is there anything Germans havent apologized for, regarding WW2?

The atrocities committed by the Soviet occupation forces against the Germans was unacceptable, regardless of the actions committed by the Germans during Operation Barbarossa. Genocide is not justifiable, nor is seeking revenge against innocents for the crimes committed by others.

People forget too often that the USSR was no better than Nazi Germany when it was ruled by the tyrant Stalin...all genocide committed by anyone for any purpose is totally unacceptable regardless of whether or not those actions were committed by someone else against you.

Calm down old boy. Look, what the Russians did was terrible. As was what the Germans did. I don't think either side can claim the moral high ground in this situation.

No, they were both very, very wrong in what they did. Unfortunately, however, the Russians have never really made the same moves to atone for the crimes they committed against the Germans; I think mutual apology is necessary and definitely the atrocities committed by both sides should be memorialized just like the victims of the Holocaust, Pearl Harbor, Nanking or Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

The Russians should apologise, give us back all our land and our shit, and then burn down all their major cities. That was not a joke or sarcasm.
1,000,000 - Roughly the number of Jews killed in the USSR by the Germans.
10,700,000 - Roughly the number of Soviet soldiers killed principally by the Germans.
11,500,000 - Number of Soviet civiliants killed principally by the Germans.

I would not be best pleased either. You can basically fuck off. That is not a joke or sarcasm.

Is there anything Germans havent apologized for, regarding WW2?

I'm not saying that the German government should apologise again. I'm merely pointing out historical fact, and that neither side was better than the other. Should the Russians apologise? It certainly wouldn't hurt to do so.

1,000,000 - Roughly the number of Jews killed in the USSR by the Germans.
10,700,000 - Roughly the number of Soviet soldiers killed principally by the Germans.
11,500,000 - Number of Soviet civiliants killed principally by the Germans.

I would not be best pleased either. You can basically fuck off. That is not a joke or sarcasm.

You fuck off, rapist.

1,000,000 - Roughly the number of Jews killed in the USSR by the Germans.
10,700,000 - Roughly the number of Soviet soldiers killed principally by the Germans.
11,500,000 - Number of Soviet civiliants killed principally by the Germans.

I would not be best pleased either. You can basically fuck off. That is not a joke or sarcasm.

Although terrible, I don't think mass rape and such is ever justified.

You fuck off, rapist.

Oh come on, K-P. What he pointed out was perfectly fair; calling people rapists again is hardly justified.

Oh and let's have a "I think Ny_Nordland and Greater Allemania are neo-Nazis option, please".

You fuck off, rapist.
And who did I personally rape, neo-Nazi shitbag?

Should teach Germany not to mess with Russia. Next time pick a fight with someone at your own level, say France, or Italy, instead of trying to play with the big boys.

Is there anything Germans havent apologized for, regarding WW2?

Is there a racist, nationalist or xenophobic viewpoint you havent apologized for?

1,000,000 - Roughly the number of Jews killed in the USSR by the Germans.
10,700,000 - Roughly the number of Soviet soldiers killed principally by the Germans.
11,500,000 - Number of Soviet civiliants killed principally by the Germans.

I would not be best pleased either. You can basically fuck off. That is not a joke or sarcasm.

The Germans apologized for all of this, erected hundreds of monuments for their shame all over germany, paid reparations....The Russians...err....confiscated treasures in German Museums...

And who did I personally rape, neo-Nazi shitbag?

As the Germans are forced to assume guilt for the Nazi crimes, you gets yours.

As the Germans are forced to assume guilt for the Nazi crimes, you gets yours.

I'm confused. Who has actually said the Germans (Assuming we mean today's Germans) should assume guilt for Nazi War Crimes on this forum?

And who did I personally rape, neo-Nazi shitbag?

Hey, calm down. That won;'t help at all. Everyone, just calm down a tad. This could be quite an interesting discussion. Just don't start accusing people of being rapists and such.

I'm confused. Who has actually said the Germans (Assuming we mean today's Germans) should assume guilt for Nazi War Crimes on this forum?

Let's face it, it's a given. As long as the word "Germany" is in use, people will blame the modern Germans for Nazi crimes.

there was no option for 'everyone should apologise to anyone they displaced, murdered, raped, pillaged or otherwise shat on, so that we can all get along fine and stop bringing up past grievances as an excuse for being a shit', so i voted for the novelty option.
ny nordland, do you have a problem with humour cuz your novelty options are never funny

Let's face it, it's a given. As long as the word "Germany" is in use, people will blame the modern Germans for Nazi crimes.

Only irrational people. For example, I don't blame modern Germans for nazi warcrimes.

The Germans apologized for all of this, erected hundreds of monuments for their shame all over germany

They had to the most to be ashamed of, though.

And it's not like they're the only country with monuments of this type, I imagine that there are a fair few in Russia, too.

paid reparations

Nobody paid reperations to anyone.

....The Russians...err....confiscated treasures in German Museums...
That sort of makes up for the artifacts lost in St. Petersburg, really.

Only irrational people. For example, I don't blame modern Germans for nazi warcrimes.

Well, there's one of you.

Well, there's one of you.

I'd say there are a fair few like me.

As the Germans are forced to assume guilt for the Nazi crimes, you gets yours.
I've never made any German feel personally responsible for what the Nazis did, and I wouldn't expect any atrocities that the British commited to be blamed on me.

I wouldn't make a German teenager feel responsible for Auschwitz, and I wouldn't want them to think I was responsible for what happened at Dresden. Because its neither of our faults.

And I come from Britain. Not much in the way of raping from us... (I imagine)

They had to the most to be ashamed of, though.

And it's not like they're the only country with monuments of this type, I imagine that there are a fair few in Russia, too.

Uh huh. Right. At least the Germans didn't hide their intentions. The Soviets just engineered famines and said "Sorry, we're out of food, if you're Ukrainian, you're going to have to starve. It's for the greater good of the people!"

And monuments? In Russia? Yeah, Soviet victory column.

OP has been edited in case you are interested....

I'd say there are a fair few like me.

A fair few isn't enough. Believe me, if there's one thing that high school kids learn in school, it's that Germans = Nazis. The entire history courses go "The history of Germany goes back thousands of years, but we'll be focusing on these 12 years."

Along with Russia and Germany, Japan should apologize for the Rape of Nanking.

I don't either. But people like you are the reason other people blame Germany for war crimes. I'm guessing you'd vote for DVU/NPD, if you were old enough to vote, which you obviously aren't.

Along with Russia and Germany, Japan should apologize for the Rape of Nanking.

The Axis have been scrutinised for the last forever, let's focus on what you didn't see in the cinema release, ok?

A fair few isn't enough. Believe me, if there's one thing that high school kids learn in school, it's that Germans = Nazis. The entire history courses go "The history of Germany goes back thousands of years, but we'll be focusing on these 12 years."

I don't know what school you're talking about. But concentration on WWII is hardly uniquely German. When was the last time you heard about Polish history that didn't include WWII? Yeah, me neither.

OP has been edited in case you are interested....

An interesting article, but not that surprising to me. Given that many Russians still see Stalin as a good, decent leader, this isn't a big surprise. I see it as somewhat of a feeling of 'They did it to us, we did it back as hard as we could, they deserved it'. Not the best of attitudes, but in a way not surprising (To keep using that word). I suspect this attitude won't shift for a while.

A fair few isn't enough. Believe me, if there's one thing that high school kids learn in school, it's that Germans = Nazis. The entire history courses go "The history of Germany goes back thousands of years, but we'll be focusing on these 12 years."

Untrue. I learned that from movies and video games. =P

I don't either. But people like you are the reason other people blame Germany for war crimes. I'm guessing you'd vote for DVU/NPD, if you were old enough to vote, which you obviously aren't.

I wouldn't vote at all. The German nations now is like a joke with a GDP.

I don't know what school you're talking about. But concentration on WWII is hardly uniquely German. When was the last time you heard about Polish history that didn't include WWII? Yeah, me neither.

Yeah, but when Polish history focuses on WWII, it always ends with "AND GERMANS ARE EVIL!"

Untrue. I learned that from movies and video games. =P

Wait. So Churchill wasn't a young, slim American Marine officer?

Well go find somewhere else to live then. Preferably without internet access.

The Axis have been scrutinised for the last forever, let's focus on what you didn't see in the cinema release, ok?

Well, they did kind of start the war, so they would be the ones to be more scrutinised.

Yeah, but when Polish history focuses on WWII, it always ends with "AND GERMANS ARE EVIL!"

Really? What evidence do you have of this?

Yeah, but when Polish history focuses on WWII, it always ends with "AND GERMANS ARE EVIL!"
Anything to back this up?

Yeah, but when Polish history focuses on WWII, it always ends with "AND GERMANS WERE EVIL!"

Fixed the quote for you.

A fair few isn't enough. Believe me, if there's one thing that high school kids learn in school, it's that Germans = Nazis. The entire history courses go "The history of Germany goes back thousands of years, but we'll be focusing on these 12 years."

That's because those 12 years had such a tremendous effect to the whole world, and especially Europe. This continent would be something completely different without that war.
Now, for little I know about schoold systems in other countries than Finland, Sweden and Estonia, WWII is generally shown as it was. Nazi Germany trying to destroy Jews and Communism.

If this makes people to think something they shouldn't, there's harldy anything we could do for it. History must be taught fairly. Fact remains, they were the Germans who voted for Hitler. Not saying that nowadays Germans are responsible for it, but still.

But, to pull this back to real life, how many anti-German racist attacks have you heard about in the past few decades?

Well, they did kind of start the war, so they would be the ones to be more scrutinised.

So? What happened to objectivety?

Fixed the quote for you.

I rather think it's "AND NAZI'S WERE EVIL"

So? What happened to objectivety?

*shrugs* I'm not the type of guy who would expel both students for fighting when one of them was just defending himself from the other.

Yeah, but when Polish history focuses on WWII, it always ends with "AND GERMANS ARE EVIL!"

My fat ass it does. Show me the textbook that says "AND GERMANS ARE EVIL." You can't do it, because you're exagerrating and whining and you know it.

FUCK your stupid German martyrdom. No one wants to hear it. Next thing you know you're about to rant about how the German people are being kept down/oppressed/slaughtered by the Jews.

I rather think it's "AND NAZI'S WERE EVIL"

Technically true, though from a kids point of view the only thing running in their mind is "Why didn't anyone stop it?" - aiding and abedding y'know. The crowd cheering Hitler on was evil as well.

Technically true, though from a kids point of view the only thing running in their mind is "Why didn't anyone stop it?" - aiding and abedding y'know. The crowd cheering Hitler on was evil as well.

And the crowds cheering on Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?

Uh huh. Right. At least the Germans didn't hide their intentions.

Most German citizens didn't know about the death camps until 1943 or so. That's a fairly clear example of intention-hiding. And Goebells wouldn't have been needed if Hitler's regime had nothing to hide.

The Soviets just engineered famines and said "Sorry, we're out of food, if you're Ukrainian, you're going to have to starve. It's for the greater good of the people!"

I can't confirm or deny this without an unbiased source of some kind.

And monuments? In Russia? Yeah, Soviet victory column.
I'm sure there are also more regretful statues. That said, Stalin's regime probably smashed them down.




Oh and we don't learn "Germans = Nazis" at secondary school at all. We learn "In World War 2, German men were conscripted, not all of them were Nazis, they didn't really have a choice of whether to fight or not".

We learn about the 20's and 30's in Germany, and how Hitler became a dictator, as well as learning about the Weimar Government and why it failed. We learn about what role the rest of the world had in creting the Nazi state. It certainly isn't blamed entirely on the German people, and certainly not on every German person.

The reason people assume that Germans are Nazis is because every day on "Discovery Civilization" or "UKTV History", there's some kind of World War 2 programme on, that's usually about the Germans (and less frequently about the Japanese).

For this reason, people say "Ah yeah, I was watching something about Nazi Germany, and it was only on TV yesterday, so it must be relevant today!" which is pretty stupid.

And the crowds cheering on Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?

I'd say just as evil and culpable.

EDIT: Although they never got a chance to elect their leaders.

I can't confirm or deny this without an unbiased source of some kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Really? What evidence do you have of this?
His own blind prejudice and that's about it.

I'd say just as evil and culpable.

Yet in popular belief, the Soviet Union's greatest crime was "looking scary."

And the crowds cheering on Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?

I wasn't aware that Cambodia was an Ally.

Stalin and Mao were bastards, though it seems their public (the ones they left alive) were happy with them. Doesn't make it right, just seems weird.

The estimated 3 million Germans driven out of East Prussia, Poland, and Czechslovakia were not slaughtered by Genocide, but driven out by ethnic cleansing.

Get you terms right.

Another 2 million (estimated) died in the evacuation, mass flight or when Russian troops killed them or when Nazi officials had them gunned down to clear the way or when Allied bombs hit them.

Most Eastern Europeans consider it justice of the tens of millions of Poles, Russians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Ukranians, Belorussians, etc killed by deliberate policy, neglect or because an aggressive war waged by the Nazi Party with the collusion of the German people.

A lot of historians in the West do as well. Including myself.

It was indeed tragic, horrible and awful. But the inevitable result of the most savage war of the 20th Century.. the war between Nazi Germany and Communist Soviet Union.

Yet in popular belief, the Soviet Union's greatest crime was "looking scary."

Really? Got any public polls/statistics to support that generalisation? Because I've never talked to anyone who said that about the Soviet Union

About the word Genocide... mass evacuations doesn't mean the same.

See, the reason for moving the Germans from Poland to West was to move the Germans from Poland the West.
The reason for moving the Armenians from Armenia was to get them killed, and this is what happened. Even if some Germans died in the process in 1945-47 (even though there is no proof for MILLIONS of deaths) that's hardly more than a glass of water in the Atlantic Ocean when we put it into the WW2 context. In Armenia (1/3,1/4 of the whole population), or with the Jews (6 out of 10) the situation is quite different.

Really? Got any public polls/statistics to support that generalisation? Because I've never talked to anyone who said that about the Soviet Union

No, wait, I'm wrong. In popular opinion, people don't even know what the Soviet Union was. At least, over here.

The estimated 3 million Germans driven out of East Prussia, Poland, and Czechslovakia were not slaughtered by Genocide, but driven out by ethnic cleansing.

Get you terms right.

Another 2 million (estimated) died in the evacuation, mass flight or when Russian troops killed them or when Nazi officials had them gunned down to clear the way or when Allied bombs hit them.

Most Eastern Europeans consider it justice of the tens of millions of Poles, Russians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Ukranians, Belorussians, etc killed by deliberate policy, neglect or because an aggressive war waged by the Nazi Party with the collusion of the German people.

A lot of historians in the West do as well. Including myself.

It was indeed tragic, horrible and awful. But the inevitable result of the most savage war of the 20th Century.. the war between Nazi Germany and Communist Soviet Union.

Then you are arguing against Armenian Genocide? That was forced evacuation too. Armenian Genocide is recognized in France and some other european countries. German Genocide isnt recognized andywhere and isnt talked about....

Most Eastern Europeans consider it justice of the tens of millions of Poles, Russians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Ukranians, Belorussians, etc killed by deliberate policy, neglect or because an aggressive war waged by the Nazi Party with the collusion of the German people.

A lot of historians in the West do as well. Including myself.

You consider that justice? I hope you die painfully.

No, wait, I'm wrong. In popular opinion, people don't even know what the Soviet Union was. At least, over here.

Again, statistics please, or this is just a mass generalisation on the population of Australia.

Really? Got any public polls/statistics to support that generalisation? Because I've never talked to anyone who said that about the Soviet Union

I've never seen a school book that had "AND GERMANS ARE EVIL" in it either.

But Greater Alemannia said it, so it must be true. ;)

And the crowds cheering on Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?
Stalin and Mao had (and still have, to some extent) a cult of personality surrounding them.

And Pol Pot and the Kmher Rouge were actively supported by the US, for some reason that I don't understand at all.

Again, statistics please, or this is just a mass generalisation on the population of Australia.

It's a mass truth about the population Australia. I've only met a handful of people who know anything of history besides WWII and what they had for breakfast this morning.

You consider that justice? I hope you die painfully.

I consider it some kind of justice. There was no good way out of it, I think the best possible ending was that of a settled equality of death.

It's a mass truth about the population Australia. I've only met a handful of people who know anything of history besides WWII and what they had for breakfast this morning.

No, it's still a generalisation. You haven't met the entire population of Australia, so you can't know this. Unless you can produce statistics backing up what you said, it is still a mass generalisation.

You consider that justice? I hope you die painfully.
Death-threat Banzerfaust round incoming!

And, I'm sorry, but people's attitudes towards Allied war crimes against Germans and other Axis civilians make Mahmoud Ahmadinejad look really attractive.

About the word Genocide... mass evacuations doesn't mean the same.
Forced evacuation is a form of genocide. Like mass executions and forced sterilization. The goal of genocide is to get rid or decimate a particular group in a determined geographic area.

@ Ny Nordland - Why don't you start talking crap about your own country again. Leave Germany alone.
You're on notice.

@ Greater Alemannia - I don't like you. That being said, shut up and go somewhere else.
You're on notice.

Then you are arguing against Armenian Genocide? That was forced evacuation too. Armenian Genocide is recognized in France and some other european countries. German Genocide isnt recognized andywhere and isnt talked about....

The Armenian Genocide was exactly that, a genocidal act of deliberate policy by the Turkish government. It was also ethnic cleansing, as many were driven out. The flight of the Germans from Eastern Europe was also deliberate policy by Stalin, but little organized murder took place. Most of the deaths occured because the population found itself frequently caught up in the fighting, and of course many were raped or killed by individual or small groups of rather bitter and angry Soviet soldiers.

But they were not lined up by the tens of thousands, marched to mass graves and murdered (as happened in Armenia).

Specific responsibility also rests on the Nazi civilian leadership, many of which fled and abandoned the people they were supposed to lead.

A number of books are on this subject, including German works translated into English, Russian works translated into English, and English works.

Read up on it.

I consider it some kind of justice. There was no good way out of it, I think the best possible ending was that of a settled equality of death.

Boy, I hope you don't have any family who are judges or police officers.

And, I'm sorry, but people's attitudes towards Allied war crimes against Germans and other Axis civilians make Mahmoud Ahmadinejad look really attractive.

You're not going to try and say the holocaus didn't happen, are you?

The Armenian Genocide was exactly that, a genocidal act of deliberate policy by the Turkish government. It was also ethnic cleansing, as many were driven out. The flight of the Germans from Eastern Europe was also deliberate policy by Stalin, but little organized murder took place. Most of the deaths occured because the population found itself frequently caught up in the fighting, and of course many were raped or killed by individual or small groups of rather bitter and angry Soviet soldiers.

But they were not lined up by the tens of thousands, marched to mass graves and murdered (as happened in Armenia).

Specific responsibility also rests on the Nazi civilian leadership, many of which fled and abandoned the people they were supposed to lead.

A number of books are on this subject, including German works translated into English, Russian works translated into English, and English works.

Read up on it.

Berlin: The Downfall by Antony Beevor is a good book to read, as is Armageddon by Max Hastings. I believe The Last Battle by Cornelius Ryan mentions the occurances a fair bit, although it is quite dated.

Boy, I hope you don't have any family who are judges or police officers.
Says someone who wants to nuke Russia?

Of course he wont :P
I mean, its not like he's saying the Iranian leader isn't that bad, who also denied the Holocaust happened.

And, I'm sorry, but people's attitudes towards Allied war crimes against Germans and other Axis civilians make Mahmoud Ahmadinejad look really attractive.

You're just riled up about something that nobody cares about anymore.

The Armenian genocide is relevant, because Turkey is ignoring it, along with a number of other human rights issues.

What the Nazis did in 1939-1945 has not been forgotten, but there are few germans nowadays who associate themselves with them. I've yet to encounter anyone, except on FPS games where you get the occasional half-brained moron, that actually blames Germany for what the Nazis did.

I suggest you stop blaming Russia for Soviets actions, or I might just end up blaming an australian (you), for the genocide of millions of innocent people, as well as for a war that cost far more lives than that.

Then you are arguing against Armenian Genocide? That was forced evacuation too. Armenian Genocide is recognized in France and some other european countries. German Genocide isnt recognized andywhere and isnt talked about....

Completely different thing, like I just said. In moving the Armenians, the idea was to get them to the mountains to starve and get killed while marching, while in moving the Germans the idea was to get the Germans moved. Even you can hardly claim that the Russians and Poles were planning to kill the German population as a whole when they started these evacuations.

What happened to the Germans wasn't a smililar situation to the Armenian Genocide, for the simple reason it wasn't a genocide but a ethnical cleansing that caused some deaths, thousands perhaps. But not 1/3 of the population.

You're not going to try and say the holocaus didn't happen, are you?

No. But he's said some stuff that's really appealing:

Ahmadinejad: No, I have a question for you. What kind of a role did today's youth play in World War II?

SPIEGEL: None.

Ahmadinejad: Why should they have feelings of guilt toward Zionists? Why should the costs of the Zionists be paid out of their pockets? If people committed crimes in the past, then they would have to have been tried 60 years ago. End of story! Why must the German people be humiliated today because a group of people committed crimes in the name of the Germans during the course of history?

SPIEGEL: The German people today can't do anything about it. But there is a sort of collective shame for those deeds done in the German name by our fathers or grandfathers.

Ahmadinejad: How can a person who wasn't even alive at the time be held legally responsible?

SPIEGEL: Not legally but morally.

Ahmadinejad: Why is such a burden heaped on the German people? The German people of today bear no guilt. Why are the German people not permitted the right to defend themselves? Why are the crimes of one group emphasized so greatly, instead of highlighting the great German cultural heritage? Why should the Germans not have the right to express their opinion freely?

Can we add another poll option?

Everyone should just shut the fuck up bitching about events that took place 60 years ago and look towards improving the world in the future.

And before someone shouts out that I'm a pinko-commie, I'm aiming that at the allies, the axis, the Jews and every other section of humanity that has an axe to grind over WW2.

You consider that justice? I hope you die painfully.

learn the rules of the forums. Learn them quickly. Or you won't be here long as the Moderators will get rid of you.

Yes, I consider it just. But justice isn't the same thing as fairness and its frequently not merciful.

A great many of the Germans driven out of Poland were those who moved there as part of a Nazi program to Germanize the area after driving out the Poles.

Read up on Nazi racial policies and settlement plans and actions carried out.

The Armenian Genocide was exactly that, a genocidal act of deliberate policy by the Turkish government. It was also ethnic cleansing, as many were driven out. The flight of the Germans from Eastern Europe was also deliberate policy by Stalin, but little organized murder took place. Most of the deaths occured because the population found itself frequently caught up in the fighting, and of course many were raped or killed by individual or small groups of rather bitter and angry Soviet soldiers.

But they were not lined up by the tens of thousands, marched to mass graves and murdered (as happened in Armenia).

Specific responsibility also rests on the Nazi civilian leadership, many of which fled and abandoned the people they were supposed to lead.

A number of books are on this subject, including German works translated into English, Russian works translated into English, and English works.

Read up on it.

You sound like Turkish Goverment, regarding "German Genocide"...


Although generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, and claims that the deaths among the Armenians were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.

Wait there...he's Australian? Wow, that guy really is fucked in the head. I bet he plays all the WW2 games as the Nazi's, and draws swastikas everywhere, at least until Mummy tells him to go to bed.

I suggest you stop blaming Russia for Soviets actions, or I might just end up blaming an australian (you), for the genocide of millions of innocent people, as well as for a war that cost far more lives than that.

What, because you don't already?

Completely different thing, like I just said. In moving the Armenians, the idea was to get them to the mountains to starve and get killed while marching, while in moving the Germans the idea was to get the Germans moved. Even you can hardly claim that the Russians and Poles were planning to kill the German population as a whole when they started these evacuations.

What happened to the Germans wasn't a smililar situation to the Armenian Genocide, for the simple reason it wasn't a genocide but a ethnical cleansing that caused some deaths, thousands perhaps. But not 1/3 of the population.

Dude, not thousands, millions.

The Russians don't call it the Great Patriotic War for nothing :headbang:

Proof?

Wait there...he's Australian? Wow, that guy really is fucked in the head. I bet he plays all the WW2 games as the Nazi's, and draws swastikas everywhere, at least until Mummy tells him to go to bed.

No. I'm anti-Nazi. But when it comes to WWII games, I have a choice between murderers and rapists. I choose murderers.

And yes, we know that I'm fucked in the head. Asperger's and depression.

You sound like Turkish Goverment, regarding "German Genocide"...
Idiot...

The two are about as comparable as vodka and tomato ketchup.

Yeah, they're both liquids, but that's just about the only thing that's similar.

Yeah, people died in both, but is just about the only similarity.

Can we add another poll option?

Everyone should just shut the fuck up bitching about events that took place 60 years ago and look towards improving the world in the future.

And before someone shouts out that I'm a pinko-commie, I'm aiming that at the allies, the axis, the Jews and every other section of humanity that has an axe to grind over WW2.

Good man. Couldn't agree more.

No. I'm anti-Nazi. But when it comes to WWII games, I have a choice between murderers and rapists. I choose murderers.

I'm sorry. Which are which again?

No. I'm anti-Nazi. But when it comes to WWII games, I have a choice between murderers and rapists. I choose murderers.
There were murderers and rapists on both sides...

You're just riled up about something that nobody cares about anymore.

The Armenian genocide is relevant, because Turkey is ignoring it, along with a number of other human rights issues.

What the Nazis did in 1939-1945 has not been forgotten, but there are few germans nowadays who associate themselves with them. I've yet to encounter anyone, except on FPS games where you get the occasional half-brained moron, that actually blames Germany for what the Nazis did.

I suggest you stop blaming Russia for Soviets actions, or I might just end up blaming an australian (you), for the genocide of millions of innocent people, as well as for a war that cost far more lives than that.

Should we stop blaming Germany for actions of 3rd Reich?

Should we stop blaming Germany for actions of 3rd Reich?
Well yes...

Idiot...

The two are about as comparable as vodka and tomato ketchup.

Yeah, they're both liquids, but that's just about the only thing that's similar.

Yeah, people died in both, but is just about the only similarity.

Dont sound this moronic. Read the OP about the description of Armenian Genocide...

Should we stop blaming Germany for actions of 3rd Reich?

We already do.

I've yet to find anyone, who actually blames Germany for the actions of the 3rd Reich.

Should we stop blaming Germany for actions of 3rd Reich?

Yes. How many times do you need to be told?

I'm sorry. Which are which again?

The Allies are the rapists. Although the Axis troops did rape, it wasn't OFFICIALLY ENDORSED BY THEIR FUCKING SUPERIORS.

We already do.

There was a recent memorial for WW2 opened...

Dont sound this moronic. Read the OP about the description of Armenian Genocide...
I actually have. My "comparison" still stands.

There was a recent memorial for WW2 opened...

Because the whole war sucked ass. It's not an apology, it's a statement: "Don't bloody do this!"

The Allies are the rapists. Although the Axis troops did rape, it wasn't OFFICIALLY ENDORSED BY THEIR FUCKING SUPERIORS.
And how could you know that the Russian rape wasn't endorsed by their commanding officers?

The Allies are the rapists. Although the Axis troops did rape, it wasn't OFFICIALLY ENDORSED BY THEIR FUCKING SUPERIORS.

Proof, please. Also, I believe rape was often endorsed by the Nazi hierarchy, as were the mass executions, rapes and concentration camps. But again proof that anything other than Russian rapeings were officially sanctioned.

Because the whole war sucked ass. It's not an apology, it's a statement: "Don't bloody do this!"

Fine...Russians should do the same...Erect a memorial for "Dont Rape Couple Million Innocent Women and Girls"

There was a recent memorial for WW2 opened...

Fascinating. There was one opened in the US as well.

Proof, please. Also, I believe rape was often endorsed by the Nazi hierarchy, as were the mass executions, rapes and concentration camps. But again proof that anything other than Russian rapeings were officially sanctioned.

Oh, I don't know anything about the Western Allies. But you chose the Soviets as your allies, you get the label, IMO. Welcome to the world of generalisations.

And I believe a quote from Stalin was "Let the boys have their fun."

You sound like Turkish Goverment, regarding "German Genocide"...

I realize English is not your first language, but read again carefully what I said.

I said it was a deliberate act by the Turkish government. It was genocide, but it was also ethnic cleansing.

Part of what the current Turkish government said is true as well (some of it was incompetence, chaos and war created events).

Of course, that Turkish government was destroyed by the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, and replaced in the mid 1920s by Kemel Attaturk. A lot of Greeks and Turks died during the period 1918 - 1926. Nearly 2 million Greeks were driven out of Turkey by the Turks as well. After they tried to drive the Turks out of European Turkey and carve up the country.

Nasty period. It wasn't just the Armenians who suffered.

Fascinating. There was one opened in the US as well.

For mentally challanged:

Allied Memorials mark the Victory without recognizing their mistakes.

German Memorials mark the shame of past.

I realize English is not your first language, but read again carefully what I said.

I said it was a deliberate act by the Turkish government. It was genocide, but it was also ethnic cleansing.

Part of what the current Turkish government said is true as well (some of it was incompetence, chaos and war created events).

Of course, that Turkish government was destroyed by the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, and replaced in the mid 1920s by Kemel Attaturk. A lot of Greeks and Turks died during the period 1918 - 1926. Nearly 2 million Greeks were driven out of Turkey by the Turks as well. After they tried to drive the Turks out of European Turkey and carve up the country.

Nasty period. It wasn't just the Armenians who suffered.

Ok so why did the russians move Germans? For vacation? It was ethnic cleansing too. They wanted to get rid of Germans in Eastern Europe.

For mentally challanged:

Allied Memorials mark the Victory without recognizing their mistakes.

German Memorials mark the shame of past.

Exactly. Where do they recognise their crimes?

Greater Alemannia. You're a Neo-Nazi. Is that good enough for you? Is that what you want people to call you?

Actually, the Russian rapes were done under orders. Therefore, the Russians should appologize, at the very least.

Fine...Russians should do the same...Erect a memorial for "Dont Rape Couple Million Innocent Women and Girls"

I wonder more and more if you've ever been outside of Norway.

You see, there are memorials in many of the places where the Soviet Union used to rule. Including, for example Latvia.

Latvia has this memorial which was raised by the soviet union. It bears very clear communist tendencies. However, can you guess how Latvians view this war memorial?

It was originally raised to commerate the deaths of all the Latvians, nay, Communists that fought against and were oppressed by Nazi Germany. Today, Latvians also view it as a symbol of having been oppressed by the Soviet Union. Therefore, the memorial serves as a "Don't trust the soviet union next time." which translates neatly into "Don't rape a couple of million innocent women and girls." since it was the soviet union which 'permitted' it (rather didn't persecute it).

The memorials exist where the Soviet Union used to exist.

Fascinating. There was one opened in the US as well.

I visited that one. It's better than nothing, but it's not really that great, compared to actually going to the concentration camps here in the EU or seeing the memorials for real.

Oh, I don't know anything about the Western Allies. But you chose the Soviets as your allies, you get the label, IMO. Welcome to the world of generalisations.

And I believe a quote from Stalin was "Let the boys have their fun."

You state you know nothing about the Western Allies, yet label them with the same label as the Soviet Union? And you're trying to fight against generalisations? How...ironic...

Greater Alemannia. You're a Neo-Nazi. Is that good enough for you? Is that what you want people to call you?

Not really, considering that I'm anti-Nazi.

Actually, the Russian rapes were done under orders. Therefore, the Russians should appologize, at the very least.

That seems perfectly reasaonable. I don't think anyone here would disagree. Well, I hope not.

For mentally challanged:

Allied Memorials mark the Victory without recognizing their mistakes.

German Memorials mark the shame of past.

Every memorial I see does not mark victory, but an overall defeat. Everybody suffered.

You go see every memorial here in Belgian, it won't be a "yay, we won" memorial but a "dammit, we lost all these people." memorial.

Ok so why did the russians move Germans? For vacation? It was ethnic cleansing too. They wanted to get rid of Germans in Eastern Europe.
...But they didn't want to exterminate the German population from the face of the Earth, which is the difference when we compare it to the Armenian Genocide or the Holocaust.

You state you know nothing about the Western Allies, yet label them with the same label as the Soviet Union? And you're trying to fight against generalisations? How...ironic...

I'm fed up with being nice. Allies should stop their generalisations first.

Every memorial I see does not mark victory, but an overall defeat. Everybody suffered.

You go see every memorial here in Belgian, it won't be a "yay, we won" memorial but a "dammit, we lost all these people." memorial.

I'm often in London, and I see British memorials for the conflict. I've yet to see one commemorating victory. They all either celebrate Generals, or mourn for the losses of civilians and soldiers.

I'm fed up with being nice. Allies should stop their generalisations first.

And these are?

Every memorial I see does not mark victory, but an overall defeat. Everybody suffered.

You go see every memorial here in Belgian, it won't be a "yay, we won" memorial but a "dammit, we lost all these people." memorial.

But does any memorial in Russia mark any of their shame?? As far as I know, they still consider themselves as noble heros. This is sick...

...But they didn't want to exterminate the German population from the face of the Earth, which is the difference when we compare it to the Armenian Genocide or the Holocaust.

Uhh, ya, they did. Some famous Russian author released a very popular pamphlet telling Sovie troops to kill Germans. Not to mention Nemmersdorf.

But does any memorial in Russia mark any of their shame?? As far as I know, they still consider themselves as noble heros. This is sick...

Look up, the Soviet Union erected one viewing themselves as Noble Heroes. Guess how the Latvians reacted?

They absolute freaking hate it today and avoid it like the plague.

And these are?

Germans are evil, Germans are Nazis, German history goes from 1933-1945.

I'm often in London, and I see British memorials for the conflict. I've yet to see one commemorating victory. They all either celebrate Generals, or mourn for the losses of civilians and soldiers.

And I guess, not even 1 mentions the unneccessary destruction of one of the world's most beautiful cities, Dresden...

Look up, the Soviet Union erected one viewing themselves as Noble Heroes. Guess how the Latvians reacted?

They absolute freaking hate it today and avoid it like the plague.

Maybe they should... I dunno... tear it the fuck down?

Germans are evil, Germans are Nazis, German history goes from 1933-1945.

As I've said: I've yet to meet anyone in real life that is stupid enough to make these generalizations.

Despite not being German myself, if I were to meet anyone who made these, I'd be tempted to punch them in the face just to defend the honour of my German friends.

Look up, the Soviet Union erected one viewing themselves as Noble Heroes. Guess how the Latvians reacted?

They absolute freaking hate it today and avoid it like the plague.

They erected it in Latvia? Why havent the Latvians burned it to the ground yet?

Uhh, ya, they did. Some famous Russian author released a very popular pamphlet telling Sovie troops to kill Germans. Not to mention Nemmersdorf.

I know the pamphlet you mean, though the female suthors name escapes me. It was proven to be false. In The Last Battle, Cornelius Ryan interviewed Soviet soldiers and politicians, from the lowest soldier to Koniev himself. Not one said they had ever seen this leaflet, and said it was either a battlefield rumour or simply gossip.

Maybe they should... I dunno... tear it the fuck down?

In case you didn't look up, if they do visit it, they regard it as a memorial to the oppression done against them both by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

Germans are evil, Germans are Nazis, German history goes from 1933-1945.

Hey KP maybe you could show me one textbook that supports those "statements."

YOU CANT DO IT.

I'm taking the fact that you ignore my posts as recognition of the futility of your own nazi apologeticism.

...But they didn't want to exterminate the German population from the face of the Earth, which is the difference when we compare it to the Armenian Genocide or the Holocaust.

Turks wanted to exterminate Armenians? They were "transporting" them to Syria...

They erected it in Latvia? Why havent the Latvians burned it to the ground yet?

Did you not read his quote? The Latvians view it not as a Communist statue, but rather as an Anti-Communist one. Something you should like.

As I've said: I've yet to meet anyone in real life that is stupid enough to make these generalizations.

You must be pretty sheltered then. That's pretty much all I ever get after revealing that I'm German. I usually just answer to Ukrainian now; better to be unknown than a Nazi.

I'm fed up with being nice. Allies should stop their generalisations first.
So because the people you're used to argue with make themselves guilty of generalizing, you have the right to stop being intelligent and start generalizing too?

Do I hear the voice of the Soviet soldiers who had seent heir country raped and wanted to pay back to the Germans, "stop being nice", do I hear the voice of the British pilots who had seen London in Ruins and wanted to pay that back to Dresden...?

You have just utterly destroyed your own point.

They erected it in Latvia? Why havent the Latvians burned it to the ground yet?

Maybe because it actually says something worthwhile, such as:

What Nazi Germany did to us really sucked.

But the same site was used by the Soviet Union earlier to oppress the Latvians.

So it also says: What the Soviet Union did to us really sucked.

And basically says "No" to oppressors.

I know the pamphlet you mean, though the female suthors name escapes me. It was proven to be false. In The Last Battle, Cornelius Ryan interviewed Soviet soldiers and politicians, from the lowest soldier to Koniev himself. Not one said they had ever seen this leaflet, and said it was either a battlefield rumour or simply gossip.

No, there was something written by a guy. I think it might have been "Ilya" something.

And I guess, not even 1 mentions the unneccessary destruction of one of the world's most beautiful cities, Dresden...

Dresden was a terrible thing. Why we have no memorial is beyond me. Although I think we may have somewhere in London. There are so many of them scattered around...

No, there was something written by a guy. I think it might have been "Ilya" something.

Ilya is a female name. That is the one I'm referring to.

You must be pretty sheltered then. That's pretty much all I ever get after revealing that I'm German. I usually just answer to Ukrainian now; better to be unknown than a Nazi.

You must meet fairly ignorant people then. I suggest you explain them that Germany today isn't Nazi Germany. And you're still not German.

So because the people you're used to argue with make themselves guilty of generalizing, you have the right to stop being intelligent and start generalizing too?

Do I hear the voice of the Soviet soldiers who had seent heir country raped and wanted to pay back to the Germans, "stop being nice", do I hear the voice of the British pilots who had seen London in Ruins and wanted to pay that back to Dresden...?

You have just utterly destroyed your own point.

Why be nice? It got us nowhere in the past.

Turks wanted to exterminate Armenians? They were "transporting" them to Syria...

And what was the percentage of those that actually survived that trip? Compare it to the percentage of the Germans who were moved out of Poland and you'll get the idea.

Why be nice? It got us nowhere in the past.

Why be evil? It got us nowhere in the past.

And what was the percentage of those that actually survived that trip? Compare it to the percentage of the Germans who were moved out of Poland and you'll get the idea.

Ok, Turks were more "efficient" than Russians. So let's excuse Russians then. Even let's allow them to keep the treasures they plundered. Afterall, the german scientists that they kidnapped and used to gain technological superiority arent enough....

And what was the percentage of those that actually survived that trip? Compare it to the percentage of the Germans who were moved out of Poland and you'll get the idea.

Yeah, the German percentages are probably higher.

Why be nice? It got us nowhere in the past.
I'm sure that's what Arthur Tedder and STAVKA thought too.

Your original point was that Nazi crimes against Europeans can't justify Allied and Soviet crimes against the Germans.

Now you're saying that because people are being stupid when you argue against them you must have the right to be stupid as well.

See the irony, anyone?

Your original point was that Nazi crimes against Europeans can't justify Allied and Soviet crimes against the Germans.
?

You're forgetting that he's trying to justify committing crimes against Russia for Soviet crimes.

If Nazi crimes doesn't justify the Soviet crimes, then your crimes will not be justifed by the Soviet crimes, K-P

I'm sure that's what Arthur Tedder and STAVKA thought too.

Your original point was that Nazi crimes against Europeans can't justify Allied and Soviet crimes against the Germans.

Now you're saying that because people are being stupid when you argue against them you must have the right to be stupid as well.

See the irony, anyone?

Not really. Nazi crimes don't excuse Allied crimes, so why are the Germans the only ones apologising? Let's just stop apologising and pretend like it never happened.

You're forgetting that he's trying to justify committing crimes against Russia for Soviet crimes.

If Nazi crimes doesn't justify the Soviet crimes, then your crimes will not be justifed by the Soviet crimes, K-P

I know my crimes won't be justified. I just wanna kill people.

Yeah, the German percentages are probably higher.
I would be laughing if this wasn't such a sad issue we are talking about.
If you had the faintest clue of what you're talking about, you wouldn't talk so much bullshit. GET TO THE LIBRARY, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT, THEN POST A THREAD.
This was my advice to you when you were Kievan-Prussia and cried how people blamed you to be an idiot and a neo-nazi. I'm sad to see that you didn't follow it, just changed your account :(

Not really. Nazi crimes don't excuse Allied crimes, so why are the Germans the only ones apologising? Let's just stop apologising and pretend like it never happened.

They've already stopped apologising, they're just not doing like you and pretending it never happened.

I know my crimes won't be justified. I just wanna kill people.

Might I suggest several good mental institutions for a psycho neo-nazi such as you?

Seriously, when you say something like that, what else am I supposed to think of you?

You come across quite clearly as trying to cover up being a psycho neo-nazi that "just wanna kill people."

They've already stopped apologising, they're just not doing like you and pretending it never happened.

Bullshit stopped apologising. The Pope fricken apologised, didn't he? He didn't even speak German in Poland, that's how much they fricken hate us.

Bullshit stopped apologising. The Pope fricken apologised, didn't he? He didn't even speak German in Poland, that's how much they fricken hate us.

What are you going on about? Please, calm down, then re-type it.

Skinny87, IIRC (and I may be wrong), weren't there laws forbidding such intercourse between the non-Germans and Germans? I don't know, it may have been just for the Jews.

I seem to be agreeing with Ny Nordland, here, to a point. Many of the atrocities of the Soviets are greatly downplayed due to the Soviet apologetics (Ukrainian Genocide, this German thing, the Baltics, etc), that they really never attoned for anything.

Oh, and for reference:



In the Present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

If you're wondering how I have that, for my World Cultures Genocide Project, I did the Ukrainian Forced Famine. (We had to pick an event and argue whether or not it constituted Genocide)

Also, political group and class were left out of the definition of genocide because the Soviet Union was currently engaging in political and classical (ahaha, classical :) ) destruction within themselves, so the UN left it out so the measure would pass and not be vetoed by the USSR.

Might I suggest several good mental institutions for a psycho neo-nazi such as you?

Seriously, when you say something like that, what else am I supposed to think of you?

You come across quite clearly as trying to cover up being a psycho neo-nazi that "just wanna kill people."

For the last fucking time, I'm not a neo-Nazi. I'm a monarchist.

In case you didn't look up, if they do visit it, they regard it as a memorial to the oppression done against them both by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

Good for Latvians. I'm talking about Russians though. They were the bulk of Soviets...And they still parade flambouyantly in their war remembarence days...

What are you going on about? Please, calm down, then re-type it.

You heard me. The Pope visited Poland and apologised. Again.

Bullshit stopped apologising. The Pope fricken apologised, didn't he? He didn't even speak German in Poland, that's how much they fricken hate us.

and rightfully so, you did hammer the living shit out of them and gas their jews/gays/gypsies/communists/disabled within living memory. deal with your baggage

the immediate result of Dresden was that Churchill and Eisenhower were both appalled and ordered the ending of strategic bombing of German targets (by that point we had taken most of them with ground troops anyway). Bomber Harris was the only major British commander of World War II not to get a knighthood or increased rank in the peerage.

Latvia suffered far heavier losses to Soviet deportations and executions then from the Nazis. Latvian troops also served alongside the Nazis as part of the SS and in their own national units and were used to fight partisans in Latvia and in Belorussia. They were also used to provide assistance to SS murder squads that were eliminating (murdering by the hundreds of thousands) Jews in the Soviet Union. Of course they weren't alone, a lot of Poles, Ukranians, Belorussians, Lithuinians and Estonians took part as well.

The Great Patriotic War (or the War in the East / Russian Front as its known in the West) was not a simple war. Both sides committing awful atrocities on a huge scale. All of the deaths from all of the atrocities and genocides and ethnic cleansings before and since during the 20th and early 21st Century don't even equal the numbers of people murdered in that war.

That said, it was official Soviet policy to drive the Germans out of East Prussia, Poland and for that matter east of the Oder River. Why is the important part.

The why is because in spite of a generation of Soviet oppression, murder and ethnic cleansing and forced relocation, the Nazis killed more people in 3 years then Stalin did in 2 decades. Most of them were Russians or at least Soviet citizens. The official Nazi policy was to kill or drive out nearly all Slavs west of the Volga River and enslave the rest.

The average Soviet soldier needed no encouragement, but he was given de facto and offical permission to take his vengeance. The average Soviet soldier was very well aware of the actual consequences of Nazi rule. He had seen it in the burned out villages and mass graves he found from Moscow to Minsk and beyond.

If the German people had not colluded with the Nazis and allowed them to take power, there would not have been a war. At least not like one that happened.

So yes, what happened to the German people was justice. Unmerciful, cruel, and horrible. But justice nonetheless. Nearly everyone but the Germans in the immediate postwar period thought so, and many still do.

I know my crimes won't be justified. I just wanna kill people.

...

For the last fucking time, I'm not a neo-Nazi.

Let's see... irrational defense of Germany? Check
Irrational apologies for nazi rapes while complaining about rapes against Germans? Check
"Just wanna kill people"... check

Yep, you're a nazi.

If you don't want to be called a nazi, STOP ACTING AND TALKING LIKE ONE.

For the last fucking time, I'm not a neo-Nazi. I'm a monarchist.

You're advocating genocide against a bunch of people that had nothing to do with the crimes you try to justify your genocide with. - nazi, among other things.

You say you "just wanna kill people." - psycho.

You insist on coming from a certain nation and basing yourself on it, regardless of whether you actually belong to it or not. - most certainly a nazi sentiment, if not nationalist.

neo-Nazi or not, you sure as hell come across as one, and a psychopathic one at that.

I seem to be agreeing with Ny Nordland, here, to a point. Many of the atrocities of the Soviets are greatly downplayed due to the Soviet apologetics (Ukrainian Genocide, this German thing, the Baltics, etc), that they really never attoned for anything.

Yeah, I'm sure karma will sort them out sooner or later. Maybe in the next war.

Skinny87, IIRC (and I may be wrong), weren't there laws forbidding such intercourse between the non-Germans and Germans? I don't know, it may have been just for the Jews.

I seem to be agreeing with Ny Nordland, here, to a point. Many of the atrocities of the Soviets are greatly downplayed due to the Soviet apologetics (Ukrainian Genocide, this German thing, the Baltics, etc), that they really never attoned for anything.

Oh, and for reference:



If you're wondering how I have that, for my World Cultures Genocide Project, I did the Ukrainian Forced Famine. (We had to pick an event and argue whether or not it constituted Genocide)

Also, political group and class were left out of the definition of genocide because the Soviet Union was currently engaging in political and classical (ahaha, classical :) ) destruction within themselves, so the UN left it out so the measure would pass and not be vetoed by the USSR.

I'm not entirely sure. I remember the Nuremberg laws stated no intercourse with jewish people, but I can't remember specifically if there were laws against having sex with Untermensch. Although I honestly wouldn't be surprised, given things like the SS Purity Tests and such.

As to the Russian War Crimes, I agree to an extent. The Russians should apologise. They may have won the conflict, but thats no excuse for not apologising. What they did was just as wrong.

...

It's awful, I know. Just ignore it.

Let's see... irrational defense of Germany? Check
Irrational apologies for nazi rapes while complaining about rapes against Germans? Check
"Just wanna kill people"... check

Yep, you're a nazi.

If you don't want to be called a nazi, STOP ACTING AND TALKING LIKE ONE.

Let's see... irrational defence of Soviets? Check. Irrational denial of Soviet atrocities? Check.

Yep, you're a Stalinist.

So you're a Monarchist? You believe Queen Elizabeth II should be your ruler?

The Great Patriotic War (or the War in the East / Russian Front as its known in the West) was not a simple war. Both sides committing awful atrocities on a huge scale. All of the deaths from all of the atrocities and genocides and So yes, what happened to the German people was justice. Unmerciful, cruel, and horrible. But justice nonetheless. Nearly everyone but the Germans in the immediate postwar period thought so, and many still do.

Karma will get you one day.

Good for Latvians. I'm talking about Russians though. They were the bulk of Soviets...And they still parade flambouyantly in their war remembarence days...

However, the Latvians were under soviet rule, and therefore by definition also soviets. They've turned a memorial that was supposed to glorify the soviets into one that demonizes them.

The Russians might still have a way to go, but the Soviets (incl. Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc.. whether they supported Soviet rule or not) certainly do have memorials.

So what about the mass evacuation of Russians by Wehrmacht and ErsatzKommando Units during Barbarossa? The mass rapes and executions commited then? Though I'm not condoning what the Soviets did, the Germans then were hardly any better.

Regarding to rape and petty looting, the Germans were much better. Petty theivery would result in being shot on sight. Germans had an honor system in regard to this, even fanatic germanophobe holocaust historians such as Goldhagen awknowledge this.

The Germans had mass evacuations and excecutions, but rape and looting were very uncommon, and when it happened, was punnished severely.

Interesting fact I recently discovered; Churchill never ordered Dresden bombed. It was actually Ernest Bevin, I believe. He ordered it when the Russians claimed Dresden had troop concentrations in it and would soften up German defences for their next offensive. Churchill was away in Yalta or another meeting when the request and bombing was done. When he returned, as mentioned, Churchill was horrified.

Let's see... irrational defence of Soviets? Check. Irrational denial of Soviet atrociaties? Check.

Yep, you're a Stalist.
Irrational assumptions? Check. Bad spelling? Check.
Yep, you're retarded.

So you're a Monarchist? You believe Queen Elizabeth II should be your ruler?

I'm a German monarchist. I'd prefer the restoration of the Hohenzollerns in Germany. Although that'll never happen, so I'm left with the Republic. *shudder*

Regarding to rape and petty looting, the Germans were much better. Petty theivery would result in being shot on sight. Germans had an honor system in regard to this, even fanatic germanophobe holocaust historians such as Goldhagen awknowledge this.

The Germans had mass evacuations and excecutions, but rape and looting were very uncommon, and when it happened, was punnished severely.

Interesting. Sources, please. I've yet to read anything that acknowledges this.

They are right. Even to this day the German Government is being forced, through the courts, to hand out compensation to all sorts of people. I cannot imagine how many millions they have given out over the last 50 years. If, like you all say, this German Government and modern Germans don't have any blame, why are they forced to continue paying out money to families of people who were killed by another German Government 65 years ago?

Good for Latvians. I'm talking about Russians though. They were the bulk of Soviets...And they still parade flambouyantly in their war remembarence days...
And they have full right to do that. Not that they shouldn't apologize also, though... but so should everyone.
The Australians should apologize for what they did to the Aboriginals, Norwegians should apologize for what wikings did to the Irish, the British should apologize half of the world for their Empire...

Or, talking about WW2 only, Americans and Brits should apologize too. The Russians weren't (in their crimes against the Germans) any worse than the western allies.

I'm a German monarchist. I'd prefer the restoration of the Hohenzollerns in Germany. Although that'll never happen, so I'm left with the Republic. *shudder*
Yet you're Australian?

And they have full right to do that. Not that they shouldn't apologize also, though... but so should everyone.

Right, if they have that right, Germans should too. WWII parades in Munich, everyone!

the immediate result of Dresden was that Churchill and Eisenhower were both appalled and ordered the ending of strategic bombing of German targets (by that point we had taken most of them with ground troops anyway). Bomber Harris was the only major British commander of World War II not to get a knighthood or increased rank in the peerage.

<snip-UTTER CRAP>

So yes, what happened to the German people was justice. Unmerciful, cruel, and horrible. But justice nonetheless. Nearly everyone but the Germans in the immediate postwar period thought so, and many still do.

So, you say raping little german girls, who had no idea even about what Nazism is, were justice? You make me sick. And you are a historian, right? You are the living proof of bias of "history". You are discusting...

Yet you're Australian?

I'm not getting into that debate now.

And they have full right to do that. Not that they shouldn't apologize also, though... but so should everyone.
The Australians should apologize for what they did to the Aboriginals, Norwegians should apologize for what wikings did to the Irish, the British should apologize half of the world for their Empire...

Or, talking about WW2 only, Americans and Brits should apologize too. The Russians weren't (in their crimes against the Germans) any worse than the western allies.
So we were as bad as the Soviet Union? Seriously, what are you learning at school, or do they not teach history at your age?
Why should the British say sorry regarding our Empire? We ended slavery, we brought many of these regions much wealth.

Let's see... irrational defence of Soviets? Check.

Okay, cite the post where I made any sort of defense of Soviet actions.

Irrational denial of Soviet atrocities? Check.

Cite the post where I made any denial of Soviet actions.

Yep, you're a Stalinist.

Not until you can cite posts that back up your stupid claims.

However, even if you can prove I'm a Stalinist, that doesn't change whether you're a neo-Nazi. You're essentially saying, "Yeah I'm a nazi, but you're a Stalinist."

They are right. Even to this day the German Government is being forced, through the courts, to hand out compensation to all sorts of people. I cannot imagine how many millions they have given out over the last 50 years. If, like you all say, this German Government and modern Germans don't have any blame, why are they forced to continue paying out money to families of people who were killed by another German Government 65 years ago?

Maybe because there are people who were alive then who are still alive today?

If you were married to someone that the 3rd Reich committed genocide against during WWII, you could still be alive today, and the German government has so nicely taken it upon themselves to repay what the Nazis did.

But that doesn't mean that the average German citizen is blamed for what happened during WWII.

For mentally challanged:

Allied Memorials mark the Victory without recognizing their mistakes.

German Memorials mark the shame of past.
That's bullshit.
The war memorials simply mourn the dead and the other memorials concerning the period often enough state what has happened and mourn the dead.

And would you guys please stop "defending" Germany. Don't you think the other Germans on this board would do so if they felt the need?
Dankeschön, aber nein danke!

As I've said: I've yet to meet anyone in real life that is stupid enough to make these generalizations.
Despite not being German myself, if I were to meet anyone who made these, I'd be tempted to punch them in the face just to defend the honour of my German friends.
I've met'em. But mostly abroad, and then those I've met were either stupid or uneducated.
I was tempted to blitz their asses :p But it wasn't really worth it. Besides, I was liked where I went and didn't want to screw it up for other Germans (to be judged by my actions - you know the routine).

Maybe because there are people who were alive then who are still alive today?

If you were married to someone that the 3rd Reich committed genocide against during WWII, you could still be alive today, and the German government has so nicely taken it upon themselves to repay what the Nazis did.

But that doesn't mean that the average German citizen is blamed for what happened during WWII.

Fine, Germany can execute everyone over the age of 50. Happy?

However, the Latvians were under soviet rule, and therefore by definition also soviets. They've turned a memorial that was supposed to glorify the soviets into one that demonizes them.

The Russians might still have a way to go, but the Soviets (incl. Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc.. whether they supported Soviet rule or not) certainly do have memorials.

Still irrevelant. The poll is about Russians, who controlled and dominated the Soviet Union.

The Russians should not apologize. That happened more than 60 years ago, there's been a regime change, and the people responsible are almost all dead.

The same is true, though, for the Germans. They have paid billions in reparations to everyone involved, specifically the Jews (i.e., Israel.) I am half German, and I do not feel ashamed for the actions of the Nazis in WWII as my grandparents were children in the war. Thus I am three generations removed from anyone who could even theoretically been involved (note: my great-grandparents were not. They were brewers and not Nazi party members, save on my father's father's side - and that was more because of the vogue, I am informed, than because of any political affiliation.) I think that people need to forget the old stereotypes - not forget the holocaust, mind you, but rather the stupid stereotypes of Germans as neo-Nazis that permeate the American perception of Germany as a whole. Any Nazis truely responsible are dead or dying. Think about it - assuming that the age of conscription was 18 (based on the modern German system,) the latest year a Nazi could have been born was 1927. Given that the average life expectancy in Germany for males is 76 (source: CIA World Factbook,) the average Nazi expired in 2003.

In short, the Nazis and Soviets responsible are dead or dying. It's time for the world to forget this tragic period in history and move on, to forget our stereotypes of Germans as universally Nazi gas-chamber operators and Russians as Soviet rapists. It's time to leave that behind.

Fine, Germany can execute everyone over the age of 50. Happy?

Oh come on, that's just stupidity. Look mate, you do have a good point here. Don't screw it upo by making such absurd statements.

Fine, Germany can execute everyone over the age of 50. Happy?

No, Germany cannot execute everyone over the age of 50.

Why be nice? It got us nowhere in the past.
Oh Gott! You moron. We wouldn't even have this kind of discussion if the Germans had been nicer in the past. See where our not being nice has brought the German people!
Man, you über-stoop!

Right, if they have that right, Germans should too. WWII parades in Munich, everyone!
Nein. Verboten.

I've met'em. But mostly abroad, and then those I've met were either stupid or uneducated.
I was tempted to blitz their asses :p But it wasn't really worth it. Besides, I was liked where I went and didn't want to screw it up for other Germans (to be judged by my actions - you know the routine).

Don't worry, if I blitz someone, I'll be sure to take the blame personally and not say "I was defending zee Germans" :p

The Russians should not apologize. That happened more than 60 years ago, there's been a regime change, and the people responsible are almost all dead.

The same is true, though, for the Germans. They have paid billions in reparations to everyone involved, specifically the Jews (i.e., Israel.) I am half German, and I do not feel ashamed for the actions of the Nazis in WWII as my grandparents were children in the war. Thus I am three generations removed from anyone who could even theoretically been involved (note: my great-grandparents were not. They were brewers and not Nazi party members, save on my father's father's side - and that was more because of the vogue, I am informed, than because of any political affiliation.) I think that people need to forget the old stereotypes - not forget the holocaust, mind you, but rather the stupid stereotypes of Germans as neo-Nazis that permeate the American perception of Germany as a whole. Any Nazis truely responsible are dead or dying. Think about it - assuming that the age of conscription was 18 (based on the modern German system,) the latest year a Nazi could have been born was 1927. Given that the average life expectancy in Germany for males is 76 (source: CIA World Factbook,) the average Nazi expired in 2003.

In short, the Nazis and Soviets responsible are dead or dying. It's time for the world to forget this tragic period in history and move on, to forget our stereotypes of Germans as universally Nazi gas-chamber operators and Russians as Soviet rapists. It's time to leave that behind.


I agree with all of that - except that we should never forget what happened. It was a major changing point in history, and a tragedy unlike any seen before on the international scene.

That's bullshit.
The war memorials simply mourn the dead and the other memorials concerning the period often enough state what has happened and mourn the dead.

And would you guys please stop "defending" Germany. Don't you think the other Germans on this board would do so if they felt the need?
Dankeschön, aber nein danke!

The Germans wouldn't defend themselves if foreign troops were marching through Brandenburg Gate.

Hey, why do the Germans plant trees along their streets? Because invaders like to march in the shade.

That's bullshit.
The war memorials simply mourn the dead and the other memorials concerning the period often enough state what has happened and mourn the dead.

And would you guys please stop "defending" Germany. Don't you think the other Germans on this board would do so if they felt the need?
Dankeschön, aber nein danke!


I've met'em. But mostly abroad, and then those I've met were either stupid or uneducated.
I was tempted to blitz their asses :p But it wasn't really worth it. Besides, I was liked where I went and didn't want to screw it up for other Germans (to be judged by my actions - you know the routine).

WW2 is taboo in Germany. You need some auslander perspective....

The Germans wouldn't defend themselves if foreign troops were marching through Brandenburg Gate.

Hey, why do the Germans plant trees along their streets? Because invaders like to march in the shade.

Firstly, that's a French joke. Get your stereotypes right. Secondly, that's just bullshit. Germans would defend against invaders today, just as British would, just as Americans would...


Stop being so damned melodramatic. It really doesn't help you.

So we were as bad as the Soviet Union? Seriously, what are you learning at school, or do they not teach history at your age?
Why should the British say sorry regarding our Empire? We ended slavery, we brought many of these regions much wealth.

Haha, I am just going to annoy you all further The British were the first to start the widespread use of concentration camps. I know the Portuguese and/or Spanish used them first in South America, but the British were the first to make widespread use them. Thousands of Boers were exterminated in British concentration camps during the Boer War. Who was the person behind this atrocity? The one and only Lord Kitchener, a British Hero. Was he charged with crimes against humanity? Of course not, he was promoted to Secretary of State for War.

The joke is, why do the French plant trees along the sides of the road?
So the Germans can march in the shade.

The Germans wouldn't defend themselves if foreign troops were marching through Brandenburg Gate.

Hey, why do the Germans plant trees along their streets? Because invaders like to march in the shade.

Please, there are no foreign troops that are going to marching through the Brandenburg Gate anytime soon.

Oh Gott! You moron. We wouldn't even have this kind of discussion if the Germans had been nicer in the past. See where our not being nice has brought the German people!
Man, you über-stoop!

And if we were nice after WWI, we'd be спеакинг Руссиан ноw.

Don't worry, if I blitz someone, I'll be sure to take the blame personally and not say "I was defending zee Germans" :p
Yeah, well... hehehe, I figured I might starting liking the blitz* and there wouldn't be many left to blame me.
Then again, that always leads to trouble... :D

*the poster does not believe that it's in his genes - then again, you never know :p

I agree with all of that - except that we should never forget what happened. It was a major changing point in history, and a tragedy unlike any seen before on the international scene.

I didn't say we need to forget it (or if I came across as such, my apologies.) But I think we can't use that period 60 years ago to judge the people of these nations today.

Interesting. Sources, please. I've yet to read anything that acknowledges this.

If you've ever read Daniel Goldhagen's (with whom I disagree on many leves) "Hitler's Willing Excecutioners: Orindary Germans and the Holocaust", he examines what he calls the moral paradox of German soldiers and policemen in regard to their morals. Even in the first chapter he showed an example of a german captain who refused to loot, but had no problem with executing Jews. There are examples of this paradox throughout the book. As for other sources, if you have access to proquest, for instance, you can find many other scholarly sources that support this notion. If you google it, I'm sure you can lots of evidence as well. I suggest you check out some books such as Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" and William Shier's "Rise and fall of the Third Reich: a history of Nazi Germany".

If you think about it, this notion makes sense on the ideological level as well, as rape of the subjugated peoples in Nazi Germany would be considered not only rape, but it would be commiting race treason, a capital sin in the Reich. Plundering was forbidden, especially in the SS. (with exception of Jews of course)

In my opinion, the Nazis were more moral than the Soviets to an infinite degree.

The joke is, why do the French plant trees along the sides of the road?
So the Germans can march in the shade.

How did the Germans conquer Poland? They were marching backwards and the Poles thought they were leaving....(referring to long occupation of Prussia/Germany of Poland)

Haha, I am just going to annoy you all further The British were the first to start the widespread use of concentration camps. I know the Portuguese and/or Spanish used them first in South America, but the British were the first to make widespread use them. Thousands of Boers were exterminated in British concentration camps during the Boer War. Who was the person behind this atrocity? The one and only Lord Kitchener, a British Hero. Was he charged with crimes against humanity? Of course not, he was promoted to Secretary of State for War.

The British were indeed the first to use Concentration Camps. It is something that, regrettably, is buried deep in history and has never been fully acknowledged. However, that does nothing to disspel what the Nazi regime did. If that is your intention by making that remark.

And if we were nice after WWI, we'd be спеакинг Руссиан ноw.
No, you'd just be a bit larger, and the world would be quite different I guess.

Firstly, that's a French joke. Get your stereotypes right. Secondly, that's just bullshit. Germans would defend against invaders today, just as British would, just as Americans would...

It's funnier using the Germans, because the French honestly are more aggressive and tough. And I don't think Germany would defend against invaders. If WWIII broke out tomorrow, Germany would be the new France.

How did the Germans conquer Poland? They were marching backwards and the Poles thought they were leaving....(referring to long occupation of Prussia/Germany of Poland)

OLOL

Seriously, do you thrive on stereotypes? The Polish army fought well against an enemy that outmanouvered them and were superior in weapons and tactics. The Polish resistance was just as effective.

Maybe because there are people who were alive then who are still alive today?

If you were married to someone that the 3rd Reich committed genocide against during WWII, you could still be alive today, and the German government has so nicely taken it upon themselves to repay what the Nazis did.

But that doesn't mean that the average German citizen is blamed for what happened during WWII.

And where does the German Government get it's money? From the German tax payer of course. Germans are being forced to pay for crimes their parents and grandparents committed. Well even people whos families had nothing to do with the war. If the German Government chose to give this compensation voluntary, well that's just great. It is that fact that they are being forced to that annoys me.

No, you'd just be a bit larger, and the world would be quite different I guess.

Oh please. You think Stalin wouldn't go for the big one?

So we were as bad as the Soviet Union? Seriously, what are you learning at school, or do they not teach history at your age?
Why should the British say sorry regarding our Empire? We ended slavery, we brought many of these regions much wealth.

No, YOU'RE not as bad as anyone since you're not responsible for the enslavement of the millions for few centuries, just like the nowadays Russians and Germans aren't responsible for Stalin's and Hitler's crimes.

However, they were the British who STARTED the slavery (technically it was Portugal, but on large scale the Brits), the Brits who exploited most of Africa for two centuries, you who kept India in ground from the 18th century, the Brits who are responsible for the extermination of Aboriginals...

If Russians should apologize, so should the rest of the world then.

However, the Latvians were under soviet rule, and therefore by definition also soviets. They've turned a memorial that was supposed to glorify the soviets into one that demonizes them.

The Russians might still have a way to go, but the Soviets (incl. Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc.. whether they supported Soviet rule or not) certainly do have memorials.

Give up the ghost, will you? He's talking about Russians. Your flimsy attempt to go from that to "inhabitant of the eastern bloc" to Soviet to Latvian is hopeless.

You can't put Russia on equal footing with the other countries of the eastern bloc when talking about the Soviet Union. It's ignorant. Just forget it.

Maybe because there are people who were alive then who are still alive today?

If you were married to someone that the 3rd Reich committed genocide against during WWII, you could still be alive today, and the German government has so nicely taken it upon themselves to repay what the Nazis did.

But that doesn't mean that the average German citizen is blamed for what happened during WWII.

And where does the German Government get it's money? From the German tax payer of course. Germans are being forced to pay for crimes their parents and grandparents committed. Well even people whos families had nothing to do with the war. If the German Government chose to give this compensation voluntary, well that's just great. It is that fact that they are being forced to that annoys me.

socialism is a historical necessity, brought on by the proletariat of the world. fascism is (I would like to say "was", but it is still wishful thinking) just a reaction of the bourgeoisie to this historical necessity, a panic button, something that can never be anything than a passing thing.

in the 1940's, in the Soviet Union, even though socialism was being built, the will of the proletariat was restrained and subordinate to "national interest" and to Greater Russian chauvinism. those "nationalists" sanctioned the revenge on the German chauvinists (and those seen to represent them, chauvinists are never that accurate since they can only think in units the size of "nation").

there should indeed be an apology. not only for raping those women of German descent, which was definitely condemnable in itself, but firstly and foremostly for giving up their historical task for short-sighted chauvinism. the inevitable realization of socialism suffered immense damage because Russian chauvinism was let to overcome the interest of the proletariat.

what the Soviet forces, acting under a chauvinist ideology, gravely misunderstood, was that it was reconstruction, not revenge, that should have been undertaken.

Interesting. Sources, please. I've yet to read anything that acknowledges this.

He has probably bought into the myth that the Wehrmacht was squeaky clean in the East.

I am reading "A stranger to myself" which was the writings of a simple infantryman Willy Peter Reese about his experience from 41-44(he died). He described one incident "where boozy soldateska of the master race make a Russian woman prisoner dance in front of them. They grease her breasts with boot polish."

The Germans and Russians did some rather crappy things to each other......

OLOL

Seriously, do you thrive on stereotypes? The Polish army fought well against an enemy that outmanouvered them and were superior in weapons and tactics. The Polish resistance was just as effective.

Ahhhh, it's a joke!! You political correctness freak!

They are right. Even to this day the German Government is being forced, through the courts, to hand out compensation to all sorts of people. I cannot imagine how many millions they have given out over the last 50 years. If, like you all say, this German Government and modern Germans don't have any blame, why are they forced to continue paying out money to families of people who were killed by another German Government 65 years ago?
Quite simple. The Federal Republic of Germany has accepted successorship to the 3rd Reich and it has therefore accepted responsibilities. Not to mention the delays that those same courts have had over the last decades.

Quite simple. The Federal Republic of Germany has accepted successorship to the 3rd Reich and it has therefore accepted responsibilities. Not to mention the delays that those same courts have had over the last decades.

Russia isnt the successor to USSR?

Quite simple. The Federal Republic of Germany has accepted successorship to the 3rd Reich and it has therefore accepted responsibilities. Not to mention the delays that those same courts have had over the last decades.

Which is bullshit. Why is my family paying taxes that go to people we've never even heard of, because some war crimes were committed by some people in the north that we've never met?

The Germans wouldn't defend themselves if foreign troops were marching through Brandenburg Gate.
You honestly believe that, don't you?
You should wear your hat in the sun more often!


Hey, why do the Germans plant trees along their streets? Because invaders like to march in the shade.
And you even got the joke wrong. That one goes: Why are there trees on the Champs-Élysées? Because the Germans like to march in the shade.

The British were indeed the first to use Concentration Camps. It is something that, regrettably, is buried deep in history and has never been fully acknowledged. However, that does nothing to disspel what the Nazi regime did. If that is your intention by making that remark.

What the Nazis did is undenyably horrible. What I meant by my remark was to point out that the British aren't exactly the holy defenders of humanity which they are usually portrayed as. Everyone country and every person in those countries is capable of horrible things. We saw the worst of Germany and Germans in World War Two. We see the worst of the United States in Iraq today. My point is, people do horribly things all the time. However, World War Two and the Holocaust continue to come up, and Germany and the Germans always get crap for it. I'm sick of it.

Greater Alemannia, you're not on a role. I have interacted with people such as Decisive Action/Communist Mississippi. I can honestly say I'd call him a friend and not be ashamed of it. Ny Nordland is tolerable, and I wouldn't shun away.

You, on the other hand, I cannot say that. You lose. Good day, sir.


Madnestan, to a point, I agree with you. Everyone has done some...less-than-nice things to each other. Apology's would be somewhat less-than-effective, as everyone would have to do it, it'd be a political show only, therefore moot.

WW2 is taboo in Germany. You need some auslander perspective....
It is not. I live here, so I do know.

If there's a country that is well-informed media-wise about its past, it's Germany!

You honestly believe that, don't you?

Yes, I do. To be honest, this is what I think of when I think "German armed forces": http://download.lardlad.com/sounds/season8/phobia15.mp3

No, that's not a flame. That's honestly the sort of image that pops into my head.

Which is bullshit.

Speaking of bullshit, I'm still waiting for you to show how I'm a Stalinist. Either that or admit you were wrong.

And if we were nice after WWI, we'd be спеакинг Руссиан ноw.
You absolutely don't know that.

German Nightmare, I agree with Ny Nordland -- if the German Republic is the successor to the Third Reich, why is the Russian Federation not the successor of the USSR, hence not subject to all of the responsibilities, etc?

He has probably bought into the myth that the Wehrmacht was squeaky clean in the East.

I am reading "A stranger to myself" which was the writings of a simple infantryman Willy Peter Reese about his experience from 41-44(he died). He described one incident "where boozy soldateska of the master race make a Russian woman prisoner dance in front of them. They grease her breasts with boot polish."

The Germans and Russians did some rather crappy things to each other......

Ahhhh, yes. I suspected as much. Say, is that book in english? It sounds interesting.

Speaking of bullshit, I'm still waiting for you to show how I'm a Stalinist. Either that or admit you were wrong.

Fine, I'm wrong. Soviet mass rapes are great.

You absolutely don't know that.

Yes, I do. Something needed to fill the balance of power. The Soviet Union was the only option.

You absolutely don't know that.

Of course. It is impossible to say how the world would have turned out. It is safe to say though that without the Nazis, the German communist party would have been a lot more powerful in the 1920s and 1930s. Whether or not Germany would have become communist, no-one can say.

What the Nazis did is undenyably horrible. What I meant by my remark was to point out that the British aren't exactly the holy defenders of humanity which they are usually portrayed as. Everyone country and every person in those countries is capable of horrible things. We saw the worst of Germany and Germans in World War Two. We see the worst of the United States in Iraq today. My point is, people do horribly things all the time. However, World War Two and the Holocaust continue to come up, and Germany and the Germans always get crap for it. I'm sick of it.

Partially I suspect it is because the Allies won the war. However, I suspect the majority of the reasons are because the Holocaust was so mechanical in its killing. It was almost inhuman in its actions.

Partially I suspect it is because the Allies won the war. However, I suspect the majority of the reasons are because the Holocaust was so mechanical in its killing. It was almost inhuman in its actions.

Why do people find that so horrifying? I think it makes it better, not worse. It was less discriminate. Less malicious. Like a factory.

Fine, I'm wrong. Soviet mass rapes are great.

No, you're wrong because I never defended Soviet mass rapes and I'm not a Stalinist.

Why do people find that so horrifying? I think it makes it better, not worse. It was less discriminate. Less malicious. Like a factory.

Killing people in a factory is "better" to you? "Less malicious?"

...and you honestly wonder why people call you a fucking nazi? Jesus Christ. Go to Hell.

No, you're wrong because I never defended Soviet mass rapes and I'm not a Stalinist.

Yet you disagree that it should be acknowledged and apologised for?

Russia isnt the successor to USSR?
What does that have to do with German successorship?

Which is bullshit. Why is my family paying taxes that go to people we've never even heard of, because some war crimes were committed by some people in the north that we've never met?
Unless you are paying the taxes, this is not your point to make.
Even if you were paying the taxes, that's just how the tax money is distributed. Get over it. It's not like the slave laborers had chosen to work without pay.
Those claims have to be substantial - Germany's not just handing out money.
And tax money always goes to people you've never heard of - that's just how it works in a federal state like Germany.

Ahhhh, yes. I suspected as much. Say, is that book in english? It sounds interesting.

Sure! Amazon should have it. The comments for the US version said it was doing well in Europe. Some curiosity browsing turned up an article in the Moscow Times which praised the book.....

Why do people find that so horrifying? I think it makes it better, not worse. It was less discriminate. Less malicious. Like a factory.

That's exactly the point that does make it so horrifying. That people could actually create 'Factories of Death' essentially. It was so impersonal.

Killing people in a factory is "better" to you? "Less malicious?"

...and you honestly wonder why people call you a fucking nazi? Jesus Christ. Go to Hell.

I never said it wasn't atrocious. I just don't see the same emotional side to it. It was sterile. Horrifying and unjustifiable, but devoid of emotion. I don't feel sad when I think of it. Not like other genocides.

Which is bullshit. Why is my family paying taxes that go to people we've never even heard of, because some war crimes were committed by some people in the north that we've never met?

Vote against it next election. There's bound to be some party that wants to discontinue this arrangement. If not, you can make your own party.

If you're not happy with the system of voting against stuff, I'm sure you'll be happy with monarchy. Then you can decide exactly what your tax money goes to. If you happen to be the monarch, that is.

we should just remember these crimes to make us remember not to start a war.. end of story

Sure! Amazon should have it. The comments for the US version said it was doing well in Europe. Some curiosity browsing turned up an article in the Moscow Times which praised the book.....

Cool. What's the name and author again? I want to get it right...