NationStates Jolt Archive

in usa you still have some states that only teach creationism at school , you don't respect civil rights (starting with guantanamo, great example to the world), you have to call your insurance company before you can buy aspirine, hospitals are good (for those who can pay), your election system is just super retarded (making holes in cards...pffff... ), you are the coutry that polute more the planet (thats surely a signal of greatness ...."why have a 'smart' if you can have a 'jeep' that consumes 5 times more fuel" ).

Then...you are proud of your universitys?? why do you think that in nasa, microsoft, google, and other top companys , they are recrouting people from europe, asia and south america ?

you are so proud of your country that you don't even know the rest of the world, or talk other languages.

you are one of the most rich countries on the world, but you have people starving in your streets.

open your eyes! stop seeing only what your (dump) president want you to see...

Pissing contest? Not the best way of dealing with this.

That there are problems in the USA is irrelevant to the situation in Europe. I really don't care whether Europe is better than the USA or not, what matters is that the ideas put forward in the OP about Europe are simply wrong.

And to that I say enjoy your 5 day forum ban.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator
:D

Despite what some people in this thread desperately have tried to obfuscate, it is, in fact, possible to learn how statistics may and may not be applied in Norway. Some of us even take advantage of this possibility.

Though some prefer to look at statistics through a crystal ball.

Despite what some people in this thread desperately have tried to obfuscate, it is, in fact, possible to learn how statistics may and may not be applied in Norway. Some of us even take advantage of this possibility.

Though some prefer to look at statistics through a crystal ball.

Explain.

And so are you! We are a nice happy family now! :headbang: um anyways. yeah generalisation is not a wise thing to do. you can't say that ALL of Europe's education sucks, because really, some countries have a higher literacy rate than us USians. then again there are some other places...

in usa you still have some states that only teach creationism at school , you don't respect civil rights (starting with guantanamo, great example to the world), you have to call your insurance company before you can buy aspirine, hospitals are good (for those who can pay), your election system is just super retarded (making holes in cards...pffff... ), you are the coutry that polute more the planet (thats surely a signal of greatness ...."why have a 'smart' if you can have a 'jeep' that consumes 5 times more fuel" ).

Then...you are proud of your universitys?? why do you think that in nasa, microsoft, google, and other top companys , they are recrouting people from europe, asia and south america ?

you are so proud of your country that you don't even know the rest of the world, or talk other languages.

you are one of the most rich countries on the world, but you have people starving in your streets.

open your eyes! stop seeing only what your (dump) president want you to see...

Firstly, were are these schools that only teach creationism? Unless you're talking about the Falwell and his "institutions," there is no such place. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District has banned the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

The entire world is contributing to pollution, due to industrialization that has been going on for over three hundred years, to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Don't even try to tell me that the rest of the developed world isn't polluting the atmosphere.

As for aspirin, I bought a bottle just yesterday and never had to contact my insurance company. The UK has extremely strict anti-slander laws that deters from the press having freedom of speech.

Concerning outsourcing, it's the natural outcome of capitalism. Business pays to who wants to work the least. People in China and India are that group right now. However, workers will begin to demand higher wages there, so there will be a relocation of interest in the not too distant future. It is not because our higher education system is crap, despite what you claim.

Considering that the United States is the most diverse nation on the planet, the majority of Americans are bilingual. And use proper grammar when conversing in English, you "speak" a language, you don't "talk" a language.

The United States is still the greatest nation on the face of the earth, and it's a shame that Europe is still so far behind that the attempt to make a uniform currency is going to fail any year now. Tisk tisk.

*snip*
and it's a shame that Europe is still so far behind that the attempt to make a uniform currency is going to fail any year now. Tisk tisk.
*snip*

I agreed with you up to this point. The Euro seems to be doing pretty well for itself. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim of its impeding failure?

Last time I checked the Euro was stronger than the US dollar

Despite what some people in this thread desperately have tried to obfuscate, it is, in fact, possible to learn how statistics may and may not be applied in Norway. Some of us even take advantage of this possibility.

Though some prefer to look at statistics through a crystal ball.

I hope you are not criticising me here. I have never implied that Norway failed to provide the possibility of learning how to use statistics. If you have understood me to imply that I am sorry, it was not my intention.

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.


The sheer depths of your idiocy and ignorance have given me a brief moment of amusement. Thank you.

Oh, and I like it just fine here in France. Great place to live. Wouldn't swap it for any other. (Although I've visited several countries that I like.)

I hope you are not criticising me here. I have never implied that Norway failed to provide the possibility of learning how to use statistics. If you have understood me to imply that I am sorry, it was not my intention.

I'm not criticising you - I'm criticising the acolytes of the temple of "If Current Trends Continue".

ok the rest of europe doesnt suck but france is still a bunch of pussies! and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL THE BEST!:upyours:

ok the rest of europe doesnt suck but france is still a bunch of pussies! and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL THE BEST!:upyours:

^The reason that Europeans feel contempt for us.

ok the rest of europe doesnt suck but france is still a bunch of pussies! and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL THE BEST!:upyours:

Oh yeah. Definitely not giving the US a bad name or resorting to stereotypes...

ok the rest of europe doesnt suck but france is still a bunch of pussies! and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL THE BEST!:upyours:

Ever been to Europe? Ever experienced the different lifestyles Europe has to offer? And explain why the USA is the best

Firstly, were are these schools that only teach creationism? Unless you're talking about the Falwell and his "institutions," there is no such place. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District has banned the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

The entire world is contributing to pollution, due to industrialization that has been going on for over three hundred years, to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Don't even try to tell me that the rest of the developed world isn't polluting the atmosphere.

As for aspirin, I bought a bottle just yesterday and never had to contact my insurance company. The UK has extremely strict anti-slander laws that deters from the press having freedom of speech.

Concerning outsourcing, it's the natural outcome of capitalism. Business pays to who wants to work the least. People in China and India are that group right now. However, workers will begin to demand higher wages there, so there will be a relocation of interest in the not too distant future. It is not because our higher education system is crap, despite what you claim.

Considering that the United States is the most diverse nation on the planet, the majority of Americans are bilingual. And use proper grammar when conversing in English, you "speak" a language, you don't "talk" a language.

The United States is still the greatest nation on the face of the earth, and it's a shame that Europe is still so far behind that the attempt to make a uniform currency is going to fail any year now. Tisk tisk.


the factual ignorance in that post is actually impressive.

i need to contact an insurer to buy asprin?
US more diverse than the UK or France?
euro weaker than the dollar (1.28?)?

what are the odds this mong doesnt own a passport?

ok the rest of europe doesnt suck but france is still a bunch of pussies! and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL THE BEST!:upyours:

You amuse me, oh ye of limited intellect. Pourquoi faut-il que les imbéciles attirent ainsi l'attention sur leur propre crétinisme?


The reason that Europeans feel contempt for us.

Nah. Most of us are smart enough to realise that most of you aren't like that.

Nah. Most of us are smart enough to realise that most of you aren't like that.

I guess it's the same with you guys, too: you don't have that many idiots, but they have the biggest mouths, so they're heard the most.

You amuse me, oh ye of limited intellect. Pourquoi faut-il que les imbéciles attirent ainsi l'attention sur leur propre crétinisme?

Nah. Most of us are smart enough to realise that most of you aren't like that.

Because if they didn't we would.

Because if they didn't we would.

Yes, but why make it easy for us? To entertain us? To humiliate themselves? Idiots like Papa Benedicti XVI are amusing, but what do they get out of publicly humiliating themselves?

Maybe they seek attention and find this is the only way they can do so.

ok the rest of europe doesnt suck but france is still a bunch of pussies! and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL THE BEST!:upyours:
WRONG. :D
You lose, as always! :p

(Benedictus - every European school kid knows that.)

(Benedictus - every European school kid knows that.)

He is obviously schizophrenic, can't you see that.

I'm not criticising you - I'm criticising the acolytes of the temple of "If Current Trends Continue".

Criticising it is easy for you, being from Tromsø. The story in Oslo, or if we look to our neighbors, in Malmö is different.

Oh, my god.
Please let this discussion die. I am American, although having family in Europe I can honestly say that Europe is better in most ways than America. Now, this may be just an opinion, but look at Tony Blair. You don't see him preaching to groups he wants to have vote for him that 'God told him to start the war'. And yet, Bush has done that. Seperation of state and religion is basic there- yet not happening here.

I ask you, all you arrogant america-lovers - let this die. You're embarrassing me, and yourselves. :headbang:

Viva le Europa!

The Euro is destined for doom because of two reasons: cultural and basic economics. One the side of cultural, combining the variety of currency from countries vastly different from each other and expecting each of them to sit back willingly is absurd. This is reinforced by the people of Germany and France, where the public states in a clear majority that they want to go back to their old system.

Economically, my main gripe is that any country can just back out of it whenever it wants. No one really has to support any backing, such as they would need to in a gold standard, for example. Rather, trust in the government, or all the governments that use the euro, keep it afloat. If there is massive inflation that could occur due to distrust in the government or the euro itself, if one of the member states withdraws from the currency, then there would be an increase in prices, and devaluing of the euro. This wouldn't happen under a gold standard, since no matter what coinage you use, you get the same amount of gold, and there's no squabble. It is extremely flimsy, and can, and will, break in the near future.

This is reinforced by the people of Germany and France, where the public states in a clear majority that they want to go back to their old system.
http://www.bundesbank.de/download/presse/pressenotizen/2002/20020311bbk1_en.pdf.
From when are your figures?

Economically, my main gripe is that any country can just back out of it whenever it wants...
Oh look, we got ourselves an Austrian! :D

Welcome dude.

Oh look, we got ourselves an Austrian! :D

Welcome dude.
Hey, you're right. Welcome. :)

The Euro is destined for doom because of two reasons: cultural and basic economics. One the side of cultural, combining the variety of currency from countries vastly different from each other and expecting each of them to sit back willingly is absurd. This is reinforced by the people of Germany and France, where the public states in a clear majority that they want to go back to their old system.
Hence, the EU should be reformed into a Swiss-style confederation, and avoid this idiotic path of over-centralisation it is currently pursuing.

ok the rest of europe doesnt suck but france is still a bunch of pussies! and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL THE BEST!:upyours:
You get one idiot banned; another pops up within minutes. What's the point?

Has anyone mentioned eating habits btw??

http://funnystuff.blogspirit.com/images/medium_euro_vs_america_jpg.jpg

Has anyone mentioned eating habits btw??

http://funnystuff.blogspirit.com/images/medium_euro_vs_america_jpg.jpg


I was just thinking about posting that! God damnit!

Oh...and when Real Americans where dancing around Tipis and singing "Hoya Oya Hoya Oya", Europeans were out solving mathematical equations, discovering new seas and land, and of course, conquering them. :)

I like America by the way, not their Jingoistic attitudes however..

ok the rest of europe doesnt suck but france is still a bunch of pussies! and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL THE BEST!:upyours:

Papa Benedicti XVI, meet disregard.

Its people like you that engender my distaste for much of the USA.

I was just thinking about posting that! God damnit!

Oh...and when Real Americans where dancing around Tipis and singing "Hoya Oya Hoya Oya", Europeans were out solving mathematical equations, discovering new seas and land, and of course, conquering them. :)

I like America by the way, not their Jingoistic attitudes however..

Wow! what happened to the British empire?

Has anyone mentioned eating habits btw??

http://funnystuff.blogspirit.com/images/medium_euro_vs_america_jpg.jpg

Well, Europe wins on that count anyway.

Sure, look at fat old Deep Kimchi
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/disturbed.jpg

Wow! what happened to the British empire?

We lost it. Much to my chagrin.

We lost it. Much to my chagrin.
No, that's a good thing. Otherwise, the world would be blaming the UK instead of the US for the world's woes.

Sure, look at fat old Deep Kimchi
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/disturbed.jpg
In the background?

In the background?
I'm the one with the rifle in the foreground. I teach shooting in my spare time.

Wow! what happened to the British empire?

It got beaten by a country that is 39.34082183 times it's size???????

And, mate, I would rather my country be taken over, and reigned over by savagery, than have my asses saved by the French....



America had their asses saved by the French, just so you know, but then again your education system probably didn't cover that part of the revolutionary war, did it?

Well, just so you do know...here are the combatants..

American Revolutionaries
France
Holland
Spain
Native Americans

versus

GB
German Mercenaries
Loyalists (About...10 in total)


Yep, you fought well...

No, that's a good thing. Otherwise, the world would be blaming the UK instead of the US for the world's woes.

Maybe. The worlds woes are unavoidable.

hehehe Education system in France is funny because there students Riot! typical next they should behead some Teachers lol or Presidents?

English Education system well was invented by ....Richard Arkwright lol well kinda but it's still rubbish because Teachers are always asking for more money, more time, more biscuits, more boats, more maths, moe subjects, more slaves, more more more more. and thats just universities. infact there's no such thing as Education in the UK today most children dont attend school and those who do get beaten stabbed crucified or hung, so that's alright some people want to learn others dont, others obey Authority and get the Blunt end of the Knife and those who do nothing and leave school with nothing go onto a diobolical benefits system ( i failed at school look at my spellings) and suck money of those who do work and went to school to learn !!! and most of Europe lives in my Area, the other day i was walking a slovakian girl to her house because she was lost, she arrived in England yesterday lol! and the rest are all Poles, Paks, Indi's, Chine's, Eastern Europeans, :)

UK isnt Europe we are the MASTERS of Europe

It got beaten by a country that is about 50 times it's size???????


It only made sense. It was a case of the tail waging the dog.


And, mate, I would rather my country be taken over, and reigned by savagery, than have my asses saved by the French....

America had their asses saved by the French, just so you know, but then again your education system probably didn't cover that part of the revolutionary war, did it?

Wow. You are right. There are no references to the French army fighting the British armies over here.

It's a conspiracy!

Fact Remains: You still LOST!

It got beaten by a country that is 39.34082183 times it's size???????

And, mate, I would rather my country be taken over, and reigned over by savagery, than have my asses saved by the French....



America had their asses saved by the French, just so you know, but then again your education system probably didn't cover that part of the revolutionary war, did it?

I do think its a tad ironic that, given the level of anti-French sentiment in the USA, they were created essentially by France to constitute a large "yaboo sucks " to Britain.

It only made sense. It was a case of the tail waging the dog.



Wow. You are right. There are no references to the French army fighting the British armies over here.

It's a conspiracy!

Fact Remains: You still LOST!

Frankly, I doubt that. And, more pertinently, did you win?

It got beaten by a country that is 39.34082183 times it's size???????

And, mate, I would rather my country be taken over, and reigned over by savagery, than have my asses saved by the French....

America had their asses saved by the French, just so you know, but then again your education system probably didn't cover that part of the revolutionary war, did it?

Well, just so you do know...here are the combatants..

American Revolutionaries
France
Holland
Spain
Native Americans

versus

GB
German Mercenaries
Loyalists (About...10 in total)

Yep, you fought well...

Wow. I thought the English school system was better then that.

GB didn't use any Natives? You might want to look again.
There were 10 loyalists? You might want to look again.

So what was the size of the French army that did all the fighting here? The same for the Dutch. How many Soldiers we talking here.

Fact remains: You still LOST.

It got beaten by a country that is 39.34082183 times it's size???????

And, mate, I would rather my country be taken over, and reigned over by savagery, than have my asses saved by the French....



America had their asses saved by the French, just so you know, but then again your education system probably didn't cover that part of the revolutionary war, did it?
Actually if you knew anything about the revolutionary war...the french merely stopped the brits from getting on their damned boats and retreating back to the isles/resupplying their troops under General Lord Cornwallis. We americans were busy kicking your ass on the ground and lets face it you never had a chance! After we kicked your ass it was down hill from there for the british empire...sorry we ruined the fun lads, you just gotta ease up on that tyrannical madness! We still like you guys...just keep up the work as our allies and easy on the french stuff because it wasn't us who got stopped by a few french naval boats...LOL The brit history books just try to say america was saved by the french when in all reality they kinda were like Patton in the battle of the bulge for the 101st airborne...nice to have but we really didn't need them. By the way the only reason you brits and the rest of europe aren't speaking german is because of us. Just thought I'd give you a friendly little reminder...but anywho...We still love ya lads and at least we can agree on hating the pansy assed french!

but in 1812 we burnt your capitol hahaha that really sucks!

Wow. I thought the English school system was better then that.

GB didn't use any Natives? You might want to look again.
There were 10 loyalists? You might want to look again.

So what was the size of the French army that did all the fighting here? The same for the Dutch. How many Soldiers we talking here.

Fact remains: You still LOST.

Please don't take him as an example of our school system. Some of us know better.

Frankly, I doubt that. And, more pertinently, did you win?

Well we all know by that actions until after the war of 1812. It was not a complete victory.

But yes. Don't recall the British army remaining after the Revolution.

Wow. I thought the English school system was better then that.

GB didn't use any Natives? You might want to look again.
There were 10 loyalists? You might want to look again.

So what was the size of the French army that did all the fighting here? The same for the Dutch. How many Soldiers we talking here.

Fact remains: You still LOST.

Not the military analyst are we.

Oddly, war is generally fought in more than one theatre, and by more than one means. Had the European powers not aided the dissidents, Britain would have been able to utilise its full power, and, no, you wouldn't have won.

Incidentally, the English school system is, generally impeccable, it simply neglects to teach the American revolution, oddly enough.

but in 1812 we burnt your capitol hahaha that really sucks!

Yes and a bunch of civis killed a bunch of battle ready troops at New Orleans.

Well we all know by that actions until after the war of 1812. It was not a complete victory.

But yes. Don't recall the British army remaining after the Revolution.

Dear god. Did YOU win the war?

Well we all know by that actions until after the war of 1812. It was not a complete victory.

But yes. Don't recall the British army remaining after the Revolution.


And after that we were too busy Conquering india which was fun!

but in 1812 we burnt your capitol hahaha that really sucks!
Not so much as it sucked...you just merely helped us revamp and refurbish our big house! LOL jk jk....yeah did I mention that wasn't really nice of you fellas? :p

Not the military analyst are we.

Oddly, war is generally fought in more than one theatre, and by more than one means. Had the European powers not aided the dissidents, Britain would have been able to utilise its full power, and, no, you wouldn't have won.

Incidentally, the English school system is, generally impeccable, it simply neglects to teach the American revolution, oddly enough.

Ahh the "What if" questions are rather fun.

Who was involved on other fronts means NOTHING. The empires messed with each other when ever they could.

Yes and a bunch of civis killed a bunch of battle ready troops at New Orleans.
Wasn't it something like we lost 3 men if even that many? There's a song about it but I can't remember...

Not so much as it sucked...you just merely helped us revamp and refurbish our big house! LOL jk jk....yeah did I mention that wasn't really nice of you fellas? :p

Shut the fuck up. All of you.

Please don't take him as an example of our school system. Some of us know better.

Hey you know me better then that. That comment was aimed only at him. ;)

Ahh the "What if" questions are rather fun.

Who was involved on other fronts means NOTHING. The empires messed with each other when ever they could.

What "what if" question? Its a patent and abudently evident truth.

Indeed, the activity of each empire on each front is immensely relvent to a discussion of quite who won the revolutionary war.

Shut the fuck up. All of you.
LOL GO TO THE DENTIST! oohhhh :p jk jk

Actually if you knew anything about the revolutionary war...the french merely stopped the brits from getting on their damned boats and retreating back to the isles. We americans were busy kicking your ass on the ground and lets face it you never had a chance! After we kicked your ass it was down hill from there for the british empire...sorry we ruined the fun lads, you just gotta ease up on that tyrannical madness! We still like you guys...just keep up the work as our allies and easy on the french stuff because it wasn't us who got stopped by a few french naval boats...LOL The brit history books just try to say america was saved by the french when in all reality they kinda were like Patton in the battle of the bulge for the 101st airborne...nice to have but we really didn't need them. By the way the only reason you brits and the rest of europe aren't speaking german is because of us. Just thought I'd give you a friendly little reminder...but anywho...We still love ya lads and at least we can agree on hating the pansy assed french!

That is so full of crap. But here's a few highlights:

1.The British Empire continued to expand after 1776 and encompassed much more of its territory before finally collapsing in the mid 20th Century. So no, you really didn't start the collapse of the Empire. I'd say that started in the Boer War.

2. The help given to the American Patriots by France was of extreme importance. Funds and weaponry were given to the Patriots; however, the French navy was not very much of a problem for the most powerful maritime nation in the world. Idiotic and incompetent commanders hurt the British caude more than the French navy.

3. I know all Americans aren't like you, but you give your fellow countrymen a bad name by stating this: "By the way the only reason you brits and the rest of europe aren't speaking german is because of us.". This is partially true; the economic and military power of the United States helped the Allied cause tremedously. However, it was not the end all and be all of the war; the efforts of the Red Army helped just as much, as did the efforts of the other Allied armies.

LOL GO TO THE DENTIST! oohhhh :p

:confused:

Dear god. Did YOU win the war?

I'm waiting for your analysis dear boy......

So lets talk about Europe being pathetic rather than talk about Americans since the news and the stock market is dominanted by them blabla

I never heard about Native Americans fighting on our side....I guess I'll have to believe you. And you continually told me to "Look again" and yet gave me NO links or any sort of information on what I got wrong?
Besides, I'm glad America won, British political views in those days were against what I stand for today. And I thought the concluding battle was when the French beat us at chesapeake?
And no matter how good you are, when invading a country you're always at a disadvantage..in those days especially, orders from London where 3 months coming, reports back were 3 months again, we can't send all our men over at one time in case of a storm, better losing 300 than 30,000....And my book says we had an army of 40,000 WORLDWIDE, against 80,000 revolutionaries, then we hired 30,000 Mercenaries when the rest of your team joined in..

I like America anyway...sooo....

3. I know all Americans aren't like you, but you give your fellow countrymen a bad name by stating this: "By the way the only reason you brits and the rest of europe aren't speaking german is because of us.". This is partially true; the economic and military power of the United States helped the Allied cause tremedously. However, it was not the end all and be all of the war; the efforts of the Red Army helped just as much, as did the efforts of the other Allied armies.
Actually had America not intervened Germany would not have had to fight one 3 fronts and could have focused their sights on Russia as well as Japan sweeping in from the east. The biggest mistake that led to defeat of the axis in WW2 was the event that took place on Dec. 7. The woke up the sleeping giant.

By the way the only reason you brits and the rest of europe aren't speaking german is because of us.

If "us" pertains to being Russian, then yes. I agree. If not, then you were (to paraphrase) like Patton in the battle of the bulge. Nice to have, but not really necessary.

So lets talk about Europe being pathetic rather than talk about Americans since the news and the stock market is dominanted by them blabla

Or, we could talk abpout how "Soccer" is sooooo bad.

No one's perfect, not even Blair,

*waits for Americans to say 'Who's Blair?'*

You can't say all of Europe sucks, It's like saying all of America sucks when only certain states do. I mean spain is ok, Britain is fantastic, Italy is cool and Greece oh Greece, I want you!

whats soccer? is that like diana ross in the world cup missing the goals which fell apart ? Soccer what is soccer!

That is so full of crap. But here's a few highlights:

1.The British Empire continued to expand after 1776 and encompassed much more of its territory before finally collapsing in the mid 20th Century. So no, you really didn't start the collapse of the Empire. I'd say that started in the Boer War.

I agree on that, but the British didn't really admit any decline until after being exhausted from WW II (although many British politicians knew that India was on the horizon).

2. The help given to the American Patriots by France was of extreme importance. Funds and weaponry were given to the Patriots; however, the French navy was not very much of a problem for the most powerful maritime nation in the world. Idiotic and incompetent commanders hurt the British caude more than the French navy.
And as powerful a maritime nation Britain was, the speed of communication across the Atlantic was too slow and the logistical train across the Atlantic too long for effective management of a strategic campaign in America by the British Army.

3. I know all Americans aren't like you, but you give your fellow countrymen a bad name by stating this: "By the way the only reason you brits and the rest of europe aren't speaking german is because of us.". This is partially true; the economic and military power of the United States helped the Allied cause tremedously. However, it was not the end all and be all of the war; the efforts of the Red Army helped just as much, as did the efforts of the other Allied armies.
I would give credit in WW II to everyone except the French - their Resistance didn't exist until it was created by the British, and was relatively insignificant from a combat persepective (even from a "disrupting logistics" perspective it was ineffectual).

Actually had America not intervened Germany would not have had to fight one 3 fronts and could have focused their sights on Russia as well as Japan sweeping in from the east. The biggest mistake that led to defeat of the axis in WW2 was the event that took place on Dec. 7. The woke up the sleeping giant.

No. Germany would have lost irrespective of US intervention, it simply would have taken nigh on a decade.

whats soccer? is that like diana ross in the world cup missing the goals which fell apart ? Soccer what is soccer!

Yeah, its like soo, unflashy....

oops. just saw the above (and erroneous) post.

Germany would still have had to fight on three fronts at least. In fact, if you factor in the small insurrections in Scandanavia and the Finnish situation, as well as naval factors, Germany was fighting on about six fronts. The war was, for all intents and purposes, and by most scholars reckonings, inevitably weighed against German victory by mid-1942. So thanks America!

Actually had America not intervened Germany would not have had to fight one 3 fronts and could have focused their sights on Russia as well as Japan sweeping in from the east. The biggest mistake that led to defeat of the axis in WW2 was the event that took place on Dec. 7. The woke up the sleeping giant.

The Japan sweeping east theory is nothing more then that. Japan was tied down with China.

Japan could not match the Siberian army. Japan did not have any worthy tanks. Japan didn't have winter ready equipment. Japan taking the Kamchatka(sp?) area would not have affected much.

As to a mistake? The only thing that went bad for Japan was the fact they got delayed on delivering the message. It was only a matter of time before war. The US and the Japanese navy have been trading shots for years.

It's because of world war II that we ARE speaking German, if we lost the war we would most likely also be speaking German, but we won and we still are. Damn schools forcing us to learn German! Schools decided it would be a good idea to teach kids other languages after the war to improve country relationships, so it doesn't really make a differnece if the Americans 'saved our ass'

Wasn't it something like we lost 3 men if even that many? There's a song about it but I can't remember...
That's pretty much how attacks against fortifications worked out in this period. You look at sieges in the Peninsular war like Badajoz, they were beaten back time and again and suffered 5000 casualties in doing so, but when they finally got in then the casualties on each side level up. Obviously the British forces never got a chance to do that cos they forgot ther ladders, had their generals shot so the casualty figures are unbalanced.

Or, we could talk abpout how "Soccer" is sooooo bad.

So what? Soccer has only started to catch on here in the last decade.

You know why we call it that right?

No. Germany would have lost irrespective of US intervention, it simply would have taken nigh on a decade.

Could the Red Army have survived without the trucks, food and medicine it received in the first year or two of the war?

Why are you talking about the past still?

That's pretty much how attacks against fortifications worked out in this period. You look at sieges in the Peninsular war like Badajoz, they were beaten back time and again and suffered 5000 casualties in doing so, but when they finally got in then the casualties on each side level up. Obviously the British forces never got a chance to do that cos they forgot ther ladders, had their generals shot so the casualty figures are unbalanced.

Could it also have been affected by the attitudes they had about Americans?

One point that even our history likes to ignore: That whole battle was changed by the one sniper who shot General *darn just blanked on his name* before. It has been argued that if he lived; New Orleans would have been fought different.

I agree on that, but the British didn't really admit any decline until after being exhausted from WW II (although many British politicians knew that India was on the horizon).

Indeed. WWII really was the clincher of the deal. It had been proven that Great Britain really was no longer a superpower.


And as powerful a maritime nation Britain was, the speed of communication across the Atlantic was too slow and the logistical train across the Atlantic too long for effective management of a strategic campaign in America by the British Army.

Ah yes, I hadn't considered that, a good point. However, the French navy was still not a great threat to the campaign. Distance, as you correctly say, was more of a threat.

I would give credit in WW II to everyone except the French - their Resistance didn't exist until it was created by the British, and was relatively insignificant from a combat persepective (even from a "disrupting logistics" perspective it was ineffectual).

I think that is being rather harsh. The French army fought brilliantly during the Blitzkrieg; it was only a weak and fractured government that could not control it properly, along with unknown tactics, that caused it to fail. As to the resistance, it was invaluable during the Normandy Campaigns, and provided vital information on the status of Occupied France before the invasion. The Free French Army was also a small but often brilliant unit; their actions in Monte Cassino were vital in shortening the campaign (As long as it was), and if General Clarke hadn't been so stubborn and foolish, could have been given the resources to take Cassino much earlier on.

Could the Red Army have survived without the trucks, food and medicine it received in the first year or two of the war?

Basically, yes. It would have been marginally more difficult in the grand scheme of things, but nothing the mighty USSR couldn't have handled at that point. Here you go:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1588

Axishistoryforums. Knockin' heads so we don't have to.

Why are you talking about the past still?

Because it's fun and we have pathetic lives! ;)

Basically, yes. It would have been marginally more difficult in the grand scheme of things, but nothing the mighty USSR couldn't have handled at that point. Here you go:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1588

Axishistoryforums. Knockin' heads so we don't have to.

Actually, if you are to believe Field Marshal Zhukov, then you are wrong. He explicitly stated that without those supplies, the Russian campaigns would have failed.

EDIT: Interesting forum. One poster seems to say that the Waffen SS were not war criminals...

He explicitly stated that without those supplies, the Russian campaigns would have failed.

References to that one? And which campaigns was he referring to?

Could the Red Army have survived without the trucks, food and medicine it received in the first year or two of the war?

Possibly. Zhukov considered otherwise,but never forget the extent to whcioh Britain contributed to Russian survival logistically.

I hated history at school, had a history exam today but i don't see the point. They say 'it's good to look at the past so we can learn from our mistakes' but we never do! We should have 'future' lessons instead but that might be hard.

References to that one? And which campaigns was he referring to?

Presumably the entire conflict.

References to that one? And which campaigns was he referring to?

You have me in a bind, as all my history books are at home, and I'm still at university, moving home tonight. I believe TBF would know, he is just as knowledgable as I am.

Over to you, TBF.

I hated history at school, had a history exam today but i don't see the point. They say 'it's good to look at the past so we can learn from our mistakes' but we never do! We should have 'future' lessons instead but that might be hard.

A perspective I don't agree with, as a history student, but can accept. For those with no passion for it, history can be boring.

A perspective I don't agree with, as a history student, but can accept. For those with no passion for it, history can be boring.
Yeah my sister does history, I don't understand why, but I do Drama and Media Studies and she hates them. Opinions, they're important in history that's one thing I learnt.

That's pretty much how attacks against fortifications worked out in this period. You look at sieges in the Peninsular war like Badajoz, they were beaten back time and again and suffered 5000 casualties in doing so, but when they finally got in then the casualties on each side level up. Obviously the British forces never got a chance to do that cos they forgot ther ladders, had their generals shot so the casualty figures are unbalanced.
If by fortifications you mean standing on a wooden dock firing at brits walking across it and a few americans hiding behind hay stacks...if thats what you mean fortifications...b/c thats what happened at a point

Basically, yes. It would have been marginally more difficult in the grand scheme of things, but nothing the mighty USSR couldn't have handled at that point. Here you go:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1588

Axishistoryforums. Knockin' heads so we don't have to.

HEY! Don't answer for the history expert! I wanted to hear his answer! :p

The campaign was doomed for many reasons. The master race mentality worked against them when they mistreated people that viewed them as liberators.

What would the partisans been able to do if the Germans hadn't forced people that hated the soviets to join them.

But the fact remains we needed each other.

Even at the time of D-Day and Bagration. Bagration tied up units that could have gone west to deal with the landings. D-Day transfered fighter wings that allowed the Russian Air to bomb and strafe at will.

If by fortifications you mean standing on a wooden dock firing at brits walking across it and a few americans hiding behind hay stacks...if thats what you mean fortifications...b/c thats what happened at a point

*Sighs*

Possibly you mean Bunker Hill? A battle in which the British Redcoats took heavy casualties, but in which the Patriots took a similar percentage. But please. If you're going to continue discussing, please either use sources or be more specific. It's hard to debate without either of those.

Yeah my sister does history, I don't understand why, but I do Drama and Media Studies and she hates them. Opinions, they're important in history that's one thing I learnt.

I have just lost all respect for you. What sort of subjects are Drama and Media Studies? I spy a doss option.

And what really rakles is that they are classifed in the same form as academic subjects.

*Sighs*

Possibly you mean Bunker Hill? A battle in which the British Redcoats took heavy casualties, but in which the Patriots took a similar percentage. But please. If you're going to continue discussing, please either use sources or be more specific. It's hard to debate without either of those.
actually you addressed my post that was addressed to new orleans...so no not bunker hill...hey man you adressed me...maybe you should be aware what your addressing because it was very obvious in my previous post when i quoted the dude talking about the battle of new orleans

Presumably the entire conflict.

Possibly not. I don't think he ever stated that Russia would have lost the war without lend-lease. I recall him saying that the war would have been a bit lengthier, though. Really, read the thread that I posted. It's full of posturing message board zombies butting heads and comparing cocks, but the figures are useful and quite definitive - Russia began recieving lend-lease in useful numbers by late 1942, by which point the Werhmacht was strategically moribund. It's like saying that if the germans had captured Stalingrad, the war would have been theirs. Looking at the forces deployed for operation Saturn (drawn up three months before the battle, mind you), it's clear with hindsight that Germany was defeated.

But I have no problems in saying that lend-lease gave tremendous impetus to the Russian drive westwards.

Possibly. Zhukov considered otherwise,but never forget the extent to whcioh Britain contributed to Russian survival logistically.

You will never hear me knocking anybodies contributions. I only defend against those that say the Americans really didn't do anything.

My Granddad was a Pole. He made it over to your country and was part of the 1st Polish Airbrigade. ;)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?


And your post proves that biased bigoted ranting by neanderthals with more testosterone than synapses still exists regardless of the educational system employed in your country.

You Sir are an arse.

I have just lost all respect for you. What sort of subjects are Drama and Media Studies? I spy a doss option.

And what really rakles is that they are classifed in the same form as academic subjects.

They aren't the only one's I do just the one's my sister hates. I also do English Literature and Philosophy and Ethics. Besides I'm not going to do a subject just because it's 'academic' I do subjects that are fun and I enjoy. And it's not as if I don't work hard.

You will never hear me knocking anybodies contributions. I only defend against those that say the Americans really didn't do anything.

My Granddad was a Pole. He made it over to your country and was part of the 1st Polish Airbrigade. ;)

1st Polish Air Brigade? Did he drop into Arnhem by any chance?

Possibly not. I don't think he ever stated that Russia would have lost the war without lend-lease. I recall him saying that the war would have been a bit lengthier, though. Really, read the thread that I posted. It's full of posturing message board zombies butting heads and comparing cocks, but the figures are useful and quite definitive - Russia began recieving lend-lease in useful numbers by late 1942, by which point the Werhmacht was strategically moribund. It's like saying that if the germans had captured Stalingrad, the war would have been theirs. Looking at the forces deployed for operation Saturn (drawn up three months before the battle, mind you), it's clear with hindsight that Germany was defeated.

But I have no problems in saying that lend-lease gave tremendous impetus to the Russian drive westwards.

I disagree with Zhukov anyway. I would contend that what defeated Germany was their inability to acquire either Leningrad or Stalingrad, and the loss of impetus in the winter of 1941.

They aren't the only one's I do just the one's my sister hates. I also do English Literature and Philosophy and Ethics. Besides I'm not going to do a subject just because it's 'academic' I do subjects that are fun and I enjoy. And it's not as if I don't work hard.

English Literature is facile. Truts me, I'm currently on full UMS with negligable work, whilst Philosophy is passable, but ethics? What do you want to be, a human rights lawyer?

I do subjects because they're academic, I'm exceptional at them, and no, I rarely work hard.

You will never hear me knocking anybodies contributions. I only defend against those that say the Americans really didn't do anything.

My Granddad was a Pole. He made it over to your country and was part of the 1st Polish Airbrigade. ;)

I would admit the USA was integral to ending the war when it did, I simply doubt that their intervention was critical to the victory itself.

Incidentally, mu history teahcer's father was a pole; he crashed a tank in a ditch in 1939.

English Literature is facile. Truts me, I'm currently on full UMS with negligable work, whilst Philosophy is passable, but ethics? What do you want to be, a human rights lawyer?

I do subjects because they're academic, I'm exceptional at them, and no, I rarely work hard.

It's 'Philosophy AND Ethics' it's one subject. I don't want to be a human rights lawyer, I want to have fun. English Lit is fun! Drama more so.

I would contend that what defeated Germany was their inability to acquire either Leningrad or Stalingrad, and the loss of impetus in the winter of 1941.

I'd go with Black Forrest on this one. If the Germans had capitalised on the hatred Ukranians and Belorussians had for the Communist regime, then their acute manpower shortage wouldn't have been an issue. You can extend this line of thinking to winter clothing, too, and the lack of impetus.

I find it slightly disturbing that people still view WW2 primarily as a clash of arms, than what it really represented - a battle between propaganda and ideological drives. After all, what comes first - a man marching off to war, or his volition to do so?

I disagree with Zhukov anyway. I would contend that what defeated Germany was their inability to acquire either Leningrad or Stalingrad, and the loss of impetus in the winter of 1941.

I disagree. Neither Leningrad nor Stalingrad were vital military targets. A number of things doomed the German war effort:

1. Crete - By waiting for these landing to occur, Hitler lost months on Barbarossa, forcing him to launch later than his Generals wanted, and invading in Winter, something that Naopleon found to be a bad idea when it comes to Russia. Crete also essentially wiped out many of his paratrooper regiments, leaving them unavailable for strikes into Russian territory as Barbarossa was launched.

2. Launching in Winter - A bad idea all around. Only a few months were available for fighting before the thick snow and subzero temperatures came into existance, and the German and Allied troops were only issued with Summer uniforms - another curse caused by Crete. The snow delayed the Germans and, as you say, causing them to lose momentum. This allowed the Russians to reorganise quickly and ship in Siberian reinforcments under Zhukov.

3. Hitler - Not only demanding Crete and invading in Winter, but then stopping a plan to go south and into the oilfields - something that would have crippled the Russian war effort - and instead demanding that Stalingrad be taken. Stalingrad, a city of no military or economic worth that could have been avoided, but instead created a quagmire that destroyed German strength and killed hundreds of thousands whilst giving the Russians more time to reorganise. All because the city's name had Stalin's name on it.

EDIT: 4. As mentioned, killing Cossacks and other anti-Stalin Russian citizens, instead of using them to overthrow Stalin. This helped Stalin create the myth of 'The Great Patriotic War', and stripped the Germans of valuable allies and guides.

If by fortifications you mean standing on a wooden dock firing at brits walking across it and a few americans hiding behind hay stacks...if thats what you mean fortifications...b/c thats what happened at a point
Well I didn't mean a big walled city by fortifications, in which case they'd have had to prepare a breach to assault with artillery, but they were well prepared and included the natural defences of the canal. And yes at times the British did force the Americans back, but were unable to support the attacks.

oh no, the thread died! Must. Revive. Don't. Know. How. Damn why did I quit red cross?

(hey 26th post! That's lucky!)

oh no, the thread died! Must. Revive. Don't. Know. How. Damn why did I quit red cross?

(hey 26th post! That's lucky!)

I'm not a fan of Europe's politics, but I hardly think that Europe is pathetic.

Every government has its own policies - and as a result, their own successes and failures.

I'm sure that Fass, for instance, just loves the way he lives in Sweden, and the way the Swedish Government is run (with a few complaints), and thinks it's far better than living in the US, with the way the US government and economy are run. In fact, he probably thinks it's the only way to live.

And I would have the opposite viewpoint.

But put a Frenchman in the room, and we'll have a threeway.... argument.

I went to high school in Poland, and went to US as an exchange student. Don't get me wrong, I had a blast, met some awesome, intelligent people, and my overall experience was very positive. BUT... When it comes to high school education...

Those questions were ask by high school students:

-Where is Poland? (cool, it's a small country, they don't need to know, so I tell them it's in Europe)

-Where is Europe? (ok...?)

-Is Poland in Russia? (ok, i see why you may assume that...kinda...)

-Is Poland in Africa? (wtf?)

-What language do you speak in Poland? (hmmm...)

-Do you have electricity in Poland? (no, we live in caves)

-Really? OMG, did you hear that? I knew you were poor, but...So, you've never seen a computer before?

etc. etc.


So yeah, Europe's education system may suck, but let me tell you, US education system is not that great either...

My grandmother was asked where she came from by an American Cabbie. "Scotland". Reply? "Oh, where did you learnt to speak such good English?"

And an American/Scottish friend of mine went to a camp in the States over the summer. "where do you come from?" "Scotland" "Oh, do they have TV there?"

Of course they damn do! A Scot was one of the television pioneers. Scotland is a modern developed nation, not some mud swamp!

Sorry... just getting my anger at such stupidity as displyed above out.

My grandmother was asked where she came from by an American Cabbie. "Scotland". Reply? "Oh, where did you learnt to speak such good English?"

And an American/Scottish friend of mine went to a camp in the States over the summer. "where do you come from?" "Scotland" "Oh, do they have TV there?"

Of course they damn do! A Scot was one of the television pioneers. Scotland is a modern developed nation, not some mud swamp!

Sorry... just getting my anger at such stupidity as displyed above out.

I could relate to you my anecdotes from this past spring in London, where I heard some of the most idiotic and stupid comments on world events and world history that I've ever heard since my last trip to South Carolina.

If a country's native population is declining while that country receives constant immigration (and the immigrants in the country are breeding faster), that country will loose its native majority.

If those trends continue without changing... Do we know what will happen in a 100 years, as said? No. And even if Muslims do become a majority do we know that Europe will turn into a grouping of Islamic states? No. We dont know anything about 100 years in the future.

I could relate to you my anecdotes from this past spring in London, where I heard some of the most idiotic and stupid comments on world events and world history that I've ever heard since my last trip to South Carolina.

Tell me what they are, Deep Kimchi, because I'm leaving tomorrow for vacation to London.

I'll see if I hear anything good while I'm there.

Tell me what they are, Deep Kimchi, because I'm leaving tomorrow for vacation to London.

I'll see if I hear anything good while I'm there.
Go to the Leicester Square tube station. Exit to the north, and walk across the street to The Porcupine (a pub).

Just hang out there all day. It's as ignorant as anything you'll hear in a US bar.

Surprising, because this is near a long row of shops that sell rare books. And the clientele of The Porcupine is not primarily tourists. These seem to be locals that work in the immediate area.

Go to the Leicester Square tube station. Exit to the north, and walk across the street to The Porcupine (a pub).

Just hang out there all day. It's as ignorant as anything you'll hear in a US bar.

Surprising, because this is near a long row of shops that sell rare books. And the clientele of The Porcupine is not primarily tourists. These seem to be locals that work in the immediate area.

I'll check it out. It's kind of my goal to get a better feel for the area than what is possible on the tourist path, and that's definitely part of it.

On a side note:

I guess an unfortunately large minority of people don't realize that ignorance is not a uniquely American trait...it's as common in London as it is in Cleveland, or as common in Paris as it is in Seattle. People are people everywhere in the world, and that includes the brilliantas well as the mind-numbingly stupid.

I'll check it out. It's kind of my goal to get a better feel for the area than what is possible on the tourist path, and that's definitely part of it.

On a side note:

I guess an unfortunately large minority of people don't realize that ignorance is not a uniquely American trait...it's as common in London as it is in Cleveland, or as common in Paris as it is in Seattle. People are people everywhere in the world, and that includes the brilliantas well as the mind-numbingly stupid.
What's funny is that's the theater district, heart of where tourists like to go.

I disagree. Neither Leningrad nor Stalingrad were vital military targets. A number of things doomed the German war effort:

1. Crete - By waiting for these landing to occur, Hitler lost months on Barbarossa, forcing him to launch later than his Generals wanted, and invading in Winter, something that Naopleon found to be a bad idea when it comes to Russia. Crete also essentially wiped out many of his paratrooper regiments, leaving them unavailable for strikes into Russian territory as Barbarossa was launched.

2. Launching in Winter - A bad idea all around. Only a few months were available for fighting before the thick snow and subzero temperatures came into existance, and the German and Allied troops were only issued with Summer uniforms - another curse caused by Crete. The snow delayed the Germans and, as you say, causing them to lose momentum. This allowed the Russians to reorganise quickly and ship in Siberian reinforcments under Zhukov.

3. Hitler - Not only demanding Crete and invading in Winter, but then stopping a plan to go south and into the oilfields - something that would have crippled the Russian war effort - and instead demanding that Stalingrad be taken. Stalingrad, a city of no military or economic worth that could have been avoided, but instead created a quagmire that destroyed German strength and killed hundreds of thousands whilst giving the Russians more time to reorganise. All because the city's name had Stalin's name on it.

EDIT: 4. As mentioned, killing Cossacks and other anti-Stalin Russian citizens, instead of using them to overthrow Stalin. This helped Stalin create the myth of 'The Great Patriotic War', and stripped the Germans of valuable allies and guides.

Quite true, however you must consider the extent to which the prolonged sieges at Stalingrad and Leningrad afforded Russia the following:

- use of the caucasus oil fields

-access to the port of Arkangel, and thus allied supplies.

- the time to re-organise behind the Urals in 1942/43.

Granted, Hitler made some spectacular booboo's, however I would still contend that Russia's survival was centred upon the German inability to progress beyond Stalingrad and Leningrad.

Go to the Leicester Square tube station. Exit to the north, and walk across the street to The Porcupine (a pub).

Just hang out there all day. It's as ignorant as anything you'll hear in a US bar.

Surprising, because this is near a long row of shops that sell rare books. And the clientele of The Porcupine is not primarily tourists. These seem to be locals that work in the immediate area.

I bought "Caliban: Suite de la Tempete" in one of those shops recently.

Why on earth did you entre the pub?

I bought "Caliban: Suite de la Tempete" in one of those shops recently.

Why on earth did you entre the pub?
I wanted to use my laptop, and I could pick up good signal there and hop onto the network of offices nearby to access the Internet.

That's another thing - almost every office with a wireless router runs it in unsecured mode. Pretty ignorant, too.

I wanted to use my laptop, and I could pick up good signal there and hop onto the network of offices nearby to access the Internet.

That's another thing - almost every office with a wireless router runs it in unsecured mode. Pretty ignorant, too.

Oh, come on. Its not our fault we still live in the dark ages.....

[QUOTE=Free Mercantile States]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?

For your information, communism collapsed in 1989.
People do not just go from school and onto benefits; perhaps you should consider America's state-dependent underclass before you jump to any hasty conclusions.

People idolise Europe because it has become a superpower with a GDP the same size as the US without anyone getting worried like they are over China and India etc. In 10 years time, the EU will out-perform the US economically and the Euro is stronger than the dollar.

And also, the biggest group in the European Parliament is made up of centre-right parties, so that kinda throws your socialist idea out the window doesn't it?

Britain is in Europe, and we charge tuition fees for universities. There has also just been a major overhaul of the whole education system, so whilst the government might not be all that popular, perhaps you should look at what they've actually done before condemning every European country with a sweeping statement.

Sure, Europe has it's flaws and it spends a lot on useless things ie.the Common Agricultural Policy, but at least it's looking out for people and it's taking initiatives such as the Emissions Trading System, which is a hell of a lot more than the US has even considered. Perhaps I'm biased when I say that I like Europe, but then you're biased as well so I guess it's okay.

Oh, come on. Its not our fault we still live in the dark ages.....
They do that here, too (the unsecured wireless router), but not as much.

I used to hang out in the mornings at the Costa just up the street, but the signal isn't as good there.

What's funny is that's the theater district, heart of where tourists like to go.

Actually, you find a similar situation in Cleveland...of course, we don't exactly attract as many tourists.

1st Polish Air Brigade? Did he drop into Arnhem by any chance?

Why yes he did. He was also with Sosabowski in Poland. He had some rather unkind words for Browning. ;)

Go to the Leicester Square tube station. Exit to the north, and walk across the street to The Porcupine (a pub).

Just hang out there all day. It's as ignorant as anything you'll hear in a US bar.

Surprising, because this is near a long row of shops that sell rare books. And the clientele of The Porcupine is not primarily tourists. These seem to be locals that work in the immediate area.

Take a drive to Bracknell. You will find their version of "trailer trash."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.


Let me guess you're an American hero?

Well let me tell you one thing, I live in Flanders and you know what? Our educational system is on of the best in the world. Besides that: thank god that we have social welfare. Without it we would all be poor, American bastards begging for money at the local walmart. If Americans would stop being ultra liberal a lot of problems would disappear.

I would admit the USA was integral to ending the war when it did, I simply doubt that their intervention was critical to the victory itself.

Incidentally, mu history teahcer's father was a pole; he crashed a tank in a ditch in 1939.

Interesting! German tank?

Couldn't you flip over a Mk1 or Mk2 with your hands? ;)

Let me guess you're an American hero?

Well let me tell you one thing, I live in Flanders and you know what? Our educational system is on of the best in the world. Besides that: thank god that we have social welfare. Without it we would all be poor, American bastards begging for money at the local walmart. If Americans would stop being ultra liberal a lot of problems would disappear.

careful. Our liberals and conservatives are different. Our liberals like Social welfare.....

Take a drive to Bracknell. You will find their version of "trailer trash."
Oh, I had a day trip to Hull.

I'm sure that Fass, for instance, just loves the way he lives in Sweden,

I am fortunate to have more than most people in the world.

and the way the Swedish Government is run (with a few complaints)

I don't like the way the Swedish government is run. My primary complaints are: the Monarchy and the lack of a constitutional court.

and thinks it's far better than living in the US,

Many parts of it, at least. Seattle and, well, Massachusetts seem dandy, though. Although, as far as North America goes, Montréal rules.

with the way the US government and economy are run.

I don't like the US government, either. My primary objections: Archaic and poorly written constitution, too much power vested in the executive, no proper political parties and only two viable. The latter parts could easily be fixed with a proportional electoral system.

The US economy I have very few opinions of. I've never been interested in economics.

In fact, he probably thinks it's the only way to live.

The Swedish way is hardly the only way, or the best way.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?

Not in england. It's only because we have the scots pressing us for money since they're in power, the mainlands nicking all our money, and the Home Office can't catch a cold, never mind an illegal immigrant. Europe's got culture. And we need to preserve that culture. So the immigrants are heading your way, ok?

Why yes he did. He was also with Sosabowski in Poland. He had some rather unkind words for Browning. ;)

Christ, he must have had a rough time, to put it lightly. I'm unsurprised he didn't take kindly to Browning, given what he must have gone through. I don't suppose he wrote any memoirs?

Christ, he must have had a rough time, to put it lightly. I'm unsurprised he didn't take kindly to Browning, given what he must have gone through. I don't suppose he wrote any memoirs?

It is believed he did. But the family is highly dysfunctional and my great she-bitch of an aunt has all their positions under lock and key. Nobody has pressed it as she is the kind of wacknut that will burn it to prevent it falling into the "blacksheep" hands. We are hoping her kids do something with it.....

It is believed he did. But the family is highly dysfunctional and my great she-bitch of an aunt has all their positions under lock and key. Nobody has pressed it as she is the kind of wacknut that will burn it to prevent it falling into the "blacksheep" hands. We are hoping her kids do something with it.....

Dammit. Memoirs are the best things for historians, and especially for me. For example, I'm hoping to write a Dissertation/Book on Operation Varsity, and I'm starting to track down memoirs and the like.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?
I say we get rid of the French and English and deport them to Africa! Give them a plot of land called "Gokileachuda" and see what happens. Then the world would be a better place and Russia would rule Europe! MUAHAHAHAHA!

Dammit. Memoirs are the best things for historians, and especially for me. For example, I'm hoping to write a Dissertation/Book on Operation Varsity, and I'm starting to track down memoirs and the like.

Hmmm that sounds like it will be good read. They don't cover that action much over here.

If I ever get my hands on it, I would be happy to send you a copy of it. :)

But I kind of think the work will be lost if it is not already. Even with the death of my other aunt and my grandmother, she and my aunts family were sniping at each other at the funerals. Kind of sad actually. If granddad had lived, this garbage would not have been allowed.

Man this thread must give the Mods a headache!

Two points:

1) Islam. I think most people forget that the Ottoman Turks once controlled the area now known as Greece, FYR, Albania, Romania and Bulgaria. They has always been muslims in Europe since the days of the Saladin. Unless europeans decide to repeat what the Spanish/Portugese did in the Iberian Pennisula they're will always be a muslim group. Most likely and what I hope is that some of the 2nd, 3rd or 4th+ generation muslims will take back some of what they have learned (Liberal Social Democracy) in Europe back to their homelands and change their homelands. (You can't force democracy like the U.S is trying to do)

2. As far as the U.S.. Sure America has plenty of diploma mills like Devry and AIU but most of the people who come out of these place don not have a clue what is going on out in the world or even retain what they learn. Unfortunatly you do have a lot of uneduated ignorant zombies who seem to believe everything that is given to them by Fox News or MSNBC.(Similar to the Proles in 1984) Their are Americans who are very intellegent but seem to be in the minority right now. Believing that America is some sort of utopia is foolish, their is alot wrong with the U.S

Also I wanted to post. The Islamic world absorbed the Greco/Roman culture when Europe was in the middle ages. The Islamic culture between the 10th and 14th centuries was the one of the highest in the world along with China, India and Japan.

I live in the state of Georgia , which although is a fairly wealthy state has one of the worst eduacation systems in the U.S and constantly ranks in the bottom in education although we do have two great higher education systems: Emory U. and Georgia Tech. (Which the uneducated proles love to bash)

hehehe Education system in France is funny because there students Riot!


No, they don't, and didn't. What kind of nonsense were the media in your country feeding you?


typical next they should behead some Teachers lol or Presidents?


*sighs*

You're only pretending to be grossly ignorant, right?

Teachers, for the most part (myself included), supported the students' movement. I can assure you I was never living in fear of being "beheaded"...

Man this thread must give the Mods a headache!

Two points:

1) Islam. I think most people forget that the Ottoman Turks once controlled the area now known as Greece, FYR, Albania, Romania and Bulgaria. They has always been muslims in Europe since the days of the Saladin. Unless europeans decide to repeat what the Spanish/Portugese did in the Iberian Pennisula they're will always be a muslim group. Most likely and what I hope is that some of the 2nd, 3rd or 4th+ generation muslims will take back some of what they have learned (Liberal Social Democracy) in Europe back to their homelands and change their homelands. (You can't force democracy like the U.S is trying to do)
Greece pretty much did that. It exchanged populations with Turkey. It's now 98% Orthodox Christian. Same with other Balkan countries. Some of them remain Muslim (not necessarily majority though), but not all are content with this. In fact, some of these countries are breaking/ have broken apart. Like you say, I don't think Europe will be Muslim-free (equally though, I doubt Muslims will ever be a majority of any sort). I share your hope that they return to their home nations and "export" democratic values to them.

Also I wanted to post. The Islamic world absorbed the Greco/Roman culture when Europe was in the middle ages. The Islamic culture between the 10th and 14th centuries was the one of the highest in the world along with China, India and Japan.

Indeed. Then European culture (even Russia) underwent another series of massive changes though, which the Islamic world pretty much was unaffected by.

A Question to people who dislike immigrants:

My father came to the UK(From India) in the late 1950's married my mom who is english in the 1960's had my sister in 1962 and me in 1975 both of us were born in the UK. Currently I live in America but will probaly move back to the UK. I'm pretty much liberal-left buddhist. My Question is: Am I European in your minds? If not were would you have us go?

A Question to people who dislike immigrants:

My father came to the UK(From India) in the late 1950's married my mom who is english in the 1960's had my sister in 1962 and me in 1975 both of us were born in the UK. Currently I live in America but will probaly move back to the UK. I'm pretty much liberal-left buddhist. My Question is: Am I European in your minds? If not were would you have us go?
Hey, as long as you are economically self-sufficient and able to contribute to the UK economy, as well as willing to assimilate within UK culture, I have little objection. I don't mind limited, high-quality immigration. What I do object to is streams and masses of immigrants, especially welfare leeches. The US is, of course, the world's melting pot, so you're in for a bit of a culture shock if you do decide to return to the UK.