NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks
I hope you're excluding Britain from this sweeping generalisation.

We're commies? When did that happen? We have a problem with immigration? I wonder who else does;) Majority of students leave school straight into welfare? Last time I checked the UK had a unemployment rate of 3% and dropping.

Hang on, I live in Europe and have to pay tuition. What the hell are you on about?:confused:

Europe is fine. Not perfect but fine. Same with the U.S. and Canada. Australia is unique. Africa needs help. South America is coming along nicely. China is improving every decade. East Mohiva needs to be nuked into a glassy dent on the globe however.

You know what sucks even more?

You're completely lack of knowledge about Europe.

There is no such thing as a European education system. Every country is an independent country with their own education systems. Even individual countries have seperate education systems for different parts. Take the UK. Northern Ireland has what is widely recognised to be one of the best systems in the world, England has one that's falling apart.

Same goes for welfare state. And nearly everything else about Europe.

Anyway, you say welfare state and applied Socialism doesn't work? I say take a look at Scandinavia, where they do it properly. Very high GDP per capita, top of the UN Human Development Index, great education systems, great healthcare systems, very low crime rates, and strong economies. Scandinavia's where it's at.

And the Scandinavian countries are more or less the only ones in Europe where 'socialism' is used properly.

The education system here in England hardly sucks. e.g.
In my School (and its a minor Plymouthian one) I can study:
Mandarin Chinese
Russian
French
spanish
German
Geography
Travel & Tourism
Health & Social Care
Biology
Physics
Chemistry
History
Business Studies
Business & Communications Systems
ICT
Textiles
Food & Nutrition
Graphic Products
Systems & Control
Resistant Materials
PSHE
PE
RE
Horse Management
Archaeology
Enlish Lit
English Media
English Language
Maths
Statistics (additional maths)
Politics (PD)
Sex Ed
And many schools study even more e.g.
Japanese

at least our beer rocks!!!

I hope you're excluding Britain from this sweeping generalisation.
Well, England's is hardly a shining example these days, is it?

at least our beer rocks!!!

Sure it does, if you like beer in the first place.
Anyway, whatever happened to good old Ribena? :)

Europe doesn't suck. Europe isn't perfect, but it definitely doesn't suck.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn?

Politically speaking, they don't have much. Culturally speaking, they own us. :)

Sure it does, if you like beer in the first place.
Anyway, whatever happened to good old Ribena? :)

Rinbena rocks!!! LOL :)

You say we're socialist, but, at least here in the SW, the Conservatives have been elected to nearly every post they can be. So there!!

I think Europe is pretty sexy, myself.

Must be all those Germanics and sexy French guys. Oh, the Czech military. Mmmmm...

What? Oh, right. I like Europe.

Europe doesn't suck. Europe isn't perfect, but it definitely doesn't suck.
Of course it sucks, why do you think lots of immigrants come here?:p

/very bad joke:D

Well, England's is hardly a shining example these days, is it?
To be honest i'm really talking about higher education (read: not high school).

Rinbena rocks!!! LOL :)

Correct!

To be honest i'm really talking about higher education (read: not high school).

I think my statement might still stand there, to be honest :p

Free Mercantile States, what rubbishy place do you come from, with its O holy Education System then? It can't be the US:p

surely the ahistorical mix of neo-fascism and laissez-mourir capitalism that runs rampant in the United States of America these days works better and reigns supreme?

umm, let me think... no.

I think my statement might still stand there, to be honest :p
Yeah yeah yeah...

I've just noticed that you complained against our class system, and yet the Uk is one of the only EU places to have a class sytem - and it works out fine. Imagine Tony Blair without the Queen to keep him in check...
*Has horrible vision*

The education system here in England hardly sucks. e.g.
In my School (and its a minor Plymouthian one) I can study:
Mandarin Chinese
Russian
French
spanish
German
Geography
Travel & Tourism
Health & Social Care
Biology
Physics
Chemistry
History
Business Studies
Business & Communications Systems
ICT
Textiles
Food & Nutrition
Graphic Products
Systems & Control
Resistant Materials
PSHE
PE
RE
Horse Management
Archaeology
Enlish Lit
English Media
English Language
Maths
Statistics (additional maths)
Politics (PD)
Sex Ed
And many schools study even more e.g.
Japanese


Hmm lack of focus;)

If that happened, we'd drown him in ribena!

Personally, I never noticed anything wrong. Admittadly I'm an S2 who still finds it funny to stick a bag of chocolate spheres between my legs and say "Can I eat your balls?", but that probably puts me in an ideal place to judge.

Of course it sucks, why do you think lots of immigrants come here?:p

/very bad joke:D

Dutch people are insane. :)

I thought "Sweeping generalisations day" was last month...

Any excuse to party, I guess.

*parties*

Eurpoes higher education (unis) are much more inclusive than America in particular. Where you can only go to the Ivy leauges should you happen to be both smart, rich and come from a good family. Atleast Europe is meritocratic.

Yeah, uh, I'm not quite sure what FMS was smoking when he wrote that.

Crushed ribena powder.

Eurpoes higher education (unis) are much more inclusive than America in particular. Where you can only go to the Ivy leauges should you happen to be both smart, rich and come from a good family. Atleast Europe is meritocratic.


You know about as much about Ivy League colleges as the original poster knows about unis.

Why not just say 'Commies bad!!11' and save some bandwith?

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/pdf/HDR05_HDI.pdf

Read it, it's enlightening. The United States, bastion of Neoliberal capitalism, is beaten at human development level, life expectancy, enrollment in primary and secondary schools, the report's education index, spending percentage of GDP on Education, inequality and poverty by some of the most Socialdemocratic nations - Norway(Norway even beats the US at GDP per Capita), Canada, Sweden.

France and Germany, though not beating the US at human development, remain ahead in the other fields. As to rate of economic expansion, there has been relative parity over the last 13 years between the US, and Norway, Sweden, Canada, France and Germany(to be exact, Sweden and Norway were slightly higher, whereas France and Germany were slightly lower).

You act like there's a MASSIVE unemployment problem in Europe sending people to the welfare lines in droves, but the report tells us the truth - France and Germany's Long-Term Unemployment Percentage is slightly above 4%. Hardly an apocalyptic scenario. And Norway beats the US at Long-Term Unemployment.

The point of this? I'm tired of hearing 'Socialism doesn't work' and 'the sky in Europe is falling!' The evidence is that Social democracy can and does work, and that though Europe, like the US, has problems - she is not imploding.

Just a few comments:

- MSNBC is far, far from a reliable information source, it is completly politically biased towards neoliberalism;

- Italy deeply, widely suffered from years of Berlusconi neoliberal policies, the current situation in it is very bad, but that's not the cause of "leftish" policies, but of the disastrous policies of Belusconi;

- European education system, if far from perfect, is globally much, much better than USA system. French system used to be one of the best of world, but it was strongly damaged by neoliberal policies those past few years, too. Basically, European eudcation systems are lacking funds, due to 20 years of EU and WTO imposed neoliberal policies, but it's still a system much more efficient than USA system.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?

Many people are worried about the future in Europe. Because most of them can feel that their culture and thier children will be replaced by foreigners. At least on a sub conscious level.
In the report it said a third of school population in europe or germany? will be of immgrant background by 2020. That's just sad.

Many people are worried about the future in Europe. Because most of them can feel that their culture and thier children will be replaced by foreigners. At least on a sub conscious level.
In the report it said a third of school population in europe or germany? will be of immgrant background by 2020. That's just sad.

No, you're just sad, not that.

This is probably overdue, outdated, etc. by now, but when I said Europe I was talking primarily about mainland Europe. Also, speaking about commonalities and widespread similar flaws in different countries' educational systems, obviously not about some nonexistent pan-European school system.

It's in the article.

This is probably overdue, outdated, etc. by now, but when I said Europe I was talking primarily about mainland Europe. It's all in the article.

So, the european educational system isnt perfect. Wow, nobody knew that.
About the "socialist bs", i do agree with you in some points, socialism doesnt work as well as capitalism in many areas, yet, you talk like europe is filled with bad organized communism.
Oh, and, since when that makes Europe "pathetic"? I dont want to generalize, but i can almost bet your american. You know your educational system sucks and you feel the need to bash Europe just because of it? Please.

Many people are worried about the future in Europe. Because most of them can feel that their culture and thier children will be replaced by foreigners. At least on a sub conscious level.
In the report it said a third of school population in europe or germany? will be of immgrant background by 2020. That's just sad.

Why is this worrying exactly?

Why is this worrying exactly?

Back to square number 1. Thx Skinny87, u made me laugh...

No, you're just sad, not that.
I can't help...falling in love...with you....

You know what sucks even more?

You're completely lack of knowledge about Europe.

There is no such thing as a European education system. Every country is an independent country with their own education systems. Even individual countries have seperate education systems for different parts. Take the UK. Northern Ireland has what is widely recognised to be one of the best systems in the world, England has one that's falling apart.

Same goes for welfare state. And nearly everything else about Europe.

Anyway, you say welfare state and applied Socialism doesn't work? I say take a look at Scandinavia, where they do it properly. Very high GDP per capita, top of the UN Human Development Index, great education systems, great healthcare systems, very low crime rates, and strong economies. Scandinavia's where it's at.

And the Scandinavian countries are more or less the only ones in Europe where 'socialism' is used properly.
Denmark rocks!

Back to square number 1. Thx Skinny87, u made me laugh...

Amusing indeed, especially since you avoid the issue. All countries need immigration to survive economically, and with immigration rates that percentage really isn't surprising. However, why is that a problem? There will always be a percentage of immigrants - what's wrong with this new possible percentage?

I can't help...falling in love...with you....
and with me?:(

and with me?:(
Only if you put My Nordland in his place. And maybe not even then:)

The education system here in England hardly sucks. e.g.
In my School (and its a minor Plymouthian one) I can study:
Mandarin Chinese
Russian
French
spanish
German
Geography
Travel & Tourism
Health & Social Care
Biology
Physics
Chemistry
History
Business Studies
Business & Communications Systems
ICT
Textiles
Food & Nutrition
Graphic Products
Systems & Control
Resistant Materials
PSHE
PE
RE
Horse Management
Archaeology
Enlish Lit
English Media
English Language
Maths
Statistics (additional maths)
Politics (PD)
Sex Ed
And many schools study even more e.g.
Japanese

you lucky bastard! WE never got more than a few PSHE lessons on it!

Yeah, europe suck. I live in Britain, and while I hate it here, I hate the surrounding area even more.

I wanna live...ON THE MOON.

Only if you put My Nordland in his place. And maybe not even then:)
*puts My Nordland in a sauna in Norway and throws away the key*
:p

Amusing indeed, especially since you avoid the issue. All countries need immigration to survive economically, and with immigration rates that percentage really isn't surprising. However, why is that a problem? There will always be a percentage of immigrants - what's wrong with this new possible percentage?

Ok if u want to rock your world by disproving the bolded area google "immigration, netherlands" or things like that. You 'll see 40% of immigrants there are in welfare and they are economically indeed bad for netherlands. I guess immigrants get more than they give in Denmark too. And maybe belgium and some others? Anyway...

Ok if u want to rock your world by disproving the bolded area google "immigration, netherlands" or things like that. You 'll see 40% of immigrants there are in welfare and they are economically indeed bad for netherlands. I guess immigrants get more than they give in Denmark too. And maybe belgium and some others? Anyway...

And the 60% that are not on welfare?

What are they doing for the economy?

And the 60% that are not on welfare?

What are they doing for the economy?
And I'll dig up some statistics, because I don't believe it one bit.

So, the european educational system isnt perfect. Wow, nobody knew that.
About the "socialist bs", i do agree with you in some points, socialism doesnt work as well as capitalism in many areas, yet, you talk like europe is filled with bad organized communism.
Oh, and, since when that makes Europe "pathetic"? I dont want to generalize, but i can almost bet your american. You know your educational system sucks and you feel the need to bash Europe just because of it? Please.

It feels great not being able to comment on this all to much; i didn't go to an american school, i did go to a british school, but that was in the middle east so it doesn't really count. And then there was my previous school which was international :D to bad the uni i go to is actually european (dutch), but in the world today is rated pretty ok

Europe needs to protect its culture by BANNING immagration to those nation. Soon those Muslims will demand rights. And they will do anything to get them and soon they will take Europe and Make it an Islamic State, Just look at "CARE" in the United States. Soon their will be a Islamic Theocracy Flag flying over the White House. The West should not let Muslims who want to kill them into their nation. They are Radical Libbys who think terrorist are good and kind people. The West needs to relize the treat against them. The U.S needs to ban the Radical Left Party and bring in a Moderate Goverment. And Europe needs a Modern Goverment Rennassance or something. Lets get the Socalist Leaders out along with the Sissy tree huggers. Oh ya by the Way. The U.S and Europe needs to use their own oil. Who is stupid enough to get oil from someone who wants to hurt them. I am an American and I think the U.S needs to get the 50's era and way of life back into their head. And Europe needs to preserve its great history and culture. Look at french culture now. They just flushed their sence into the toilet!

:headbang: What a crazy century this is!

It may be hard for an American to understand, but Europe isn't governed by one bulging Super State that values money over the lives of its people (espically if they are an ethnic minority).

So, in fact, you can not label Europe's education all together, and even if you do, its a tier above the US.

*Points to Creationism being taught as the main theory of our origin*

Europe needs to protect its culture by BANNING immagration to those nation. Soon those Muslims will demand rights. And they will do anything to get them and soon they will take Europe and Make it an Islamic State, Just look at "CARE" in the United States. Soon their will be a Islamic Theocracy Flag flying over the White House. The West should not let Muslims who want to kill them into their nation. They are Radical Libbys who think terrorist are good and kind people. The West needs to relize the treat against them. The U.S needs to ban the Radical Left Party and bring in a Moderate Goverment. And Europe needs a Modern Goverment Rennassance or something. Lets get the Socalist Leaders out along with the Sissy tree huggers. Oh ya by the Way. The U.S and Europe needs to use their own oil. Who is stupid enough to get oil from someone who wants to hurt them. I am an American and I think the U.S needs to get the 50's era and way of life back into their head. And Europe needs to preserve its great history and culture. Look at french culture now. They just flushed their sence into the toilet!

:headbang: What a crazy century this is!

...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Europe needs to protect its culture by BANNING immagration to those nation. Soon those Muslims will demand rights.
Yeah...human rights.

Oh, the horror!

And the 60% that are not on welfare?

What are they doing for the economy?

They work and pay taxes or too young for welfare or etc... But even if they pay taxes, they get some or more of it back via education, healthcare, etc... Its not as simple as 100-40= 60 = good for economy. But of course, why do I need to tell this to u? You put me into my place afterall :eek:

Europe needs to protect its culture by BANNING immagration to those nation. Soon those Muslims will demand rights. And they will do anything to get them and soon they will take Europe and Make it an Islamic State, Just look at "CARE" in the United States. Soon their will be a Islamic Theocracy Flag flying over the White House. The West should not let Muslims who want to kill them into their nation. They are Radical Libbys who think terrorist are good and kind people. The West needs to relize the treat against them. The U.S needs to ban the Radical Left Party and bring in a Moderate Goverment. And Europe needs a Modern Goverment Rennassance or something. Lets get the Socalist Leaders out along with the Sissy tree huggers. Oh ya by the Way. The U.S and Europe needs to use their own oil. Who is stupid enough to get oil from someone who wants to hurt them. I am an American and I think the U.S needs to get the 50's era and way of life back into their head. And Europe needs to preserve its great history and culture. Look at french culture now. They just flushed their sence into the toilet!

:headbang: What a crazy century this is!


That's a very good idea *applauds*

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?

Perhaps it's because only one-third of people aged 18-24 can place Iraq on a map, only 66% can place New Orleans on a map, 66% didn't know about the earthquake in Pakistan, 47% could not find India, and as of this 2002 study, America placed in second-to-last of those nations polled, behind Britain, Sweden, France, and Germany.

Listen, Europe is better off culturally, economically, politically than most of the world. Europe aint perfect, but hey, they're certainly doing a whole lot better in terms of progression as opposed to say North America.

It may be hard for an American to understand, but Europe isn't governed by one bulging Super State that values money over the lives of its people (espically if they are an ethnic minority).

So, in fact, you can not label Europe's education all together, and even if you do, its a tier above the US.

*Points to Creationism being taught as the main theory of our origin*
That's a very good point you made there... and in a weeks time i might even be able to give you every possible reason why evolution should be considered as the theory of our origin... if i can be bothered to, that is

They work and pay taxes or too young for welfare or etc... But even if they pay taxes, they get some or more of it back via education, healthcare, etc... Its not as simple as 100-40= 60 = good for economy. But of course, why do I need to tell this to u? You put me into my place afterall :eek:
I would like to see some statistics, because there is no way 40% of the immigrants are unemployed here.

They work and pay taxes or too young for welfare or etc... But even if they pay taxes, they get some or more of it back via education, healthcare, etc... Its not as simple as 100-40= 60 = good for economy. But of course, why do I need to tell this to u? You put me into my place afterall :eek:
Right, AB...clearly they should pay taxes but NOT get it back in education etc. That would be much better!

That's a very good point you made there... and in a weeks time i might even be able to give you every possible reason why evolution should be considered as the theory of our origin... if i can be bothered to, that is

You should... creationism annoys me alittle.....
*Frustrated by chosen ignorance*

I would like to see some statistics, because there is no way 40% of the immigrants are unemployed here.

What's the point? It'll become a flaming party. Search google yourself or dont believe me. Do whatever suits u....

Edit: I didnt say unemployed. I said on welfare. You can get welfare (for children etc...) when you are employed too....

What's the point? It'll become a flaming party. Search google yourself or dont believe me. Do whatever suits u....
We live in Holland and we doubt what you say is correct, okay?:p

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?


rampant (american style) capitalism doesnt work either.

And My Nordlands slinks out of another thread, refusing once again to back up his claims...modus operandi anyone?

I don't get what the big issue is here... name anywhere in the world and you can be guaranteed that someone's gonna have a problem with them, describing the 'European' education and welfare systems is crazy, I myself have traveled around most of Europe and can safely say there is no such thing!Free Mercantile States:sniper:

=Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work=
This is an unfair generalisation. not all european nations are socialist welfare states.

Theres nothing wrong with Europe. The European standard of living is the envy of the world. Socialism and social practices are not to be feared as many Americans feel, but rather it should be welcomed.

Theres nothing wrong with Europe. The European standard of living is the envy of the world. Socialism and social practices are not to be feared as many Americans feel, but rather it should be welcomed.
I'm not certain I'd go quite that far but I have to agree I'm not quite certain as to what there is to fear from socialism.

Theres nothing wrong with Europe. The European standard of living is the envy of the world. Socialism and social practices are not to be feared as many Americans feel, but rather it should be welcomed.

Europe is not socialist. In order to be considered socialist, the means of production have to be publically owned and private property has to be abolished; they are capitalist with a heavy social welfare element, but are as far from socialism as the US or any other capitalist nation.

with america effectively governed by an oligarchic set of country club sociopaths, I value europes supposedly "bullshit" egalitarian ideals. social darwinism is bullshit.

Am I getting this right:

Dude from a country with 20 million illiterates rants about the "European" education system?

The only thing wrong about Europe is the EU. It needs reform into a minarchist, confederal union. Then it would be perfect. And for an American to call Europe pathetic? Don't make me laugh...

So, the european educational system isnt perfect. Wow, nobody knew that.
About the "socialist bs", i do agree with you in some points, socialism doesnt work as well as capitalism in many areas, yet, you talk like europe is filled with bad organized communism.
Oh, and, since when that makes Europe "pathetic"? I dont want to generalize, but i can almost bet your american. You know your educational system sucks and you feel the need to bash Europe just because of it? Please.

Yes, I am American. Yes, our educational system does suck some very large, very disgusting unmentionable things. But it doesn't appear to suck quite as badly as most of Europe's does.

Really, I just have a strong irritation with Europe, and idolization thereof by American liberals, that mounts with almost every newsbite I read relating to it. This was just a rant stemming from yet another source of irritation.

Basically, between immigration, (yes, it is definitely worse than ours; at least ours benefits us economically) the EU falling apart in the face of protectionist backlash to the apparently freakish idea of international free trade, the general miasma of socialism, the social-conservatism of Italy under the influence of the Vatican, and France (need I say more?), most of mainland Europe just seems to be going down the tubes, and the fact that liberals I know continue to glorify it as the model of a successful socialist (or pseudosocialist, wannabe socialist, working-on-it-but-not-really-socialist-just-yet, etc.) system pisses me off.

To elaborate on all of those things:

- Yes, their immigration problem is worse. Our immigrants aren't violent, don't riot, and don't live in ghettos. They help us economically (if not fiscally), and they don't have an employment problem.

- So you have the EU, widely thought to be the next superpower, along with China. I would agree, except that they're falling apart at the seams. A rejected Constitution, France and Germany backsliding into protectionism over employment issues and the influx of cheap workers from Eastern Europe - the economic alliance is looking a bit rough around the areas, and in a regressing rather than progressing way.

- Palpa - *ahem* Ratzinger. The Italians never even pushing at the grip of Christian fanaticism, and across the water, France trying to ban individual, personal expression and practice of religion in schools. The historical wars amongst European countries (and their evolution into world wars) makes even more sense in the context of present-day politics and culture.

- France. All expressed in one word. No offense to the French on this forum. (It's mainly your government) But damn. It really is pathetic. They cram thousands of immigrants into ghettos with low employment and poor, if any, education or cultural integration, and then act all surprised when they riot. They apparently decide their country is too good for the iPod, because there's not a snowball's chance in hell Apple will sell anything in France when they decide to selectively abolish intellectual property.

But the French people aren't perfect either; the government tries to give employers minimal rights of some kind, and people riot. Do you have any idea how stupid that is? How can you expect unemployment or the economy to get better if you don't change what you're doing? Companies can't provide more jobs if they're given no freedom to do business! Ironically, the freedom to fire people, among other things, would lead to more positions to hire people into. Obviously, irony is an opaque screen....

- As far as the education things goes, I read the article. I've read similar things, though never as complete, elsewhere. So I ranted.

On the whole, it seems to me that Europe is basically a model of the failed integration of systems - egalitarian/socialist democracy with the old class hierarchy, socialist/welfare-state economic policy with participation in a global free market, protectionist tendencies with a free trade alliance, religious establishment with social freedom. And it doesn't really work, and the only real contributions the entire mess has to make are cultural. There, they excel. But politically and economically? .....no.

So, yeah, ranting some more. I should really learn my lesson the first time something gets me in trouble....then again, stubbornness has always been a stronger trait than common sense in me.

The only thing wrong about Europe is the EU. It needs reform into a minarchist, confederal union. Then it would be perfect. And for an American to call Europe pathetic? Don't make me laugh...
Totally agree with the first part that is soooooo true, not so much with the second bit but hey opinion come in all different flavours!:p

Totally agree with the first part that is soooooo true, not so much with the second bit but hey opinion come in all different flavours!:p
And mine tastes best.

Yes, I am American. Yes, our educational system does suck some very large, very disgusting unmentionable things. But it doesn't appear to suck quite as badly as most of Europe's does.

Really, I just have a strong irritation with Europe, and idolization thereof by American liberals, that mounts with almost every newsbite I read relating to it. This was just a rant stemming from yet another source of irritation.


To elaborate on all of those things:

- Yes, their immigration problem is worse. Our immigrants aren't violent, don't riot, and don't live in ghettos. They help us economically (if not fiscally), and they don't have an employment problem.

- So you have the EU, widely thought to be the next superpower, along with China. I would agree, except that they're falling apart at the seams. A rejected Constitution, France and Germany backsliding into protectionism over employment issues and the influx of cheap workers from Eastern Europe - the economic alliance is looking a bit rough around the areas, and in a regressing rather than progressing way.

- Palpa - *ahem* Ratzinger. The Italians never even pushing at the grip of Christian fanaticism, and across the water, France trying to ban individual, personal expression and practice of religion in schools. The historical wars amongst European countries (and their evolution into world wars) makes even more sense in the context of present-day politics and culture.

- France. All expressed in one word. No offense to the French on this forum. (It's mainly your government) But damn. It really is pathetic. They cram thousands of immigrants into ghettos with low employment and poor, if any, education or cultural integration, and then act all surprised when they riot. They apparently decide their country is too good for the iPod, because there's not a snowball's chance in hell Apple will sell anything in France when they decide to selectively abolish intellectual property.

- As far as the education things goes, I read the article. I've read similar things, though never as complete, elsewhere. So I ranted.

On the whole, it seems to me that Europe is basically a model of the failed integration of systems - egalitarian/socialist democracy with the old class hierarchy, socialist/welfare-state economic policy with participation in a global free market, protectionist tendencies with a free trade alliance, religious establishment with social freedom. And it doesn't really work, and the only real contributions the entire mess has to make are cultural. There, they excel. But politically and economically? .....no.

I'm sorry but I'm about to go in search of a cruise missle launch code, either that or a vial of a strong sedative, either will do because you need some serious therapy if you think that the Europe you've described exists anywhere but in you're somewhat warped mind!:mp5:

P.S. You're ranting about two individual countries, there is no reference made to europe as a whole or to any of the institutions of the EU!

And mine tastes best.
And what flavour would that be?

And what flavour would that be?
The flavour of being the only correct and true one. :)

Ugh, the knee-jerk "At least we're better than the Americans" reaction is immensely annoying.

The flavour of being the only correct and true one. :)
I'll take that as being my favorite.... mmmmmmmmmmmmm...chocolate

Ugh, the knee-jerk "At least we're better than the Americans" reaction is immensely annoying.
At least it's correct (regarding the education)

Ugh, the knee-jerk "At least we're better than the Americans" reaction is immensely annoying.
Not at all, I can only speak for myself but I don't agree with that premise, the american system has its great points and its not so great points but that doesn't make them inferior by any stretch of the imagination.

[snip]

Really, I just have a strong irritation with Europe, and idolization thereof by American liberals, that mounts with almost every newsbite I read relating to it. This was just a rant stemming from yet another source of irritation.

[snip]

- Yes, their immigration problem is worse. Our immigrants aren't violent, don't riot, and don't live in ghettos. They help us economically (if not fiscally), and they don't have an employment problem.
[snip]

- As far as the education things goes, I read the article. I've read similar things, though never as complete, elsewhere. So I ranted.

On the whole, it seems to me that Europe is basically a model of the failed integration of systems - egalitarian/socialist democracy with the old class hierarchy, socialist/welfare-state economic policy with participation in a global free market, protectionist tendencies with a free trade alliance, religious establishment with social freedom. And it doesn't really work, and the only real contributions the entire mess has to make are cultural. There, they excel. But politically and economically? .....no.

So, yeah, ranting some more. I should really learn my lesson the first time something gets me in trouble....then again, stubbornness has always been a stronger trait than common sense in me.

OK, so lots of ranting on the basis of what? Irritation caused by US liberals. Your portrayal of Europe, and that given by MSNBC is completely twisted.

If I were of such a mind I could easily present the USA in an equally twisted way. Take an isolated event here, an couple of upset blog articles there and paint the USA as suffering a complete breakdown of democracy, collapse into fascism, with rampant xenophobia, widespread protests by oppressed minorities that overflow daily into violence. I could show that the neo-liberal model has failed dramaticaly, that there are millions in the USA living below the poverty line, the nation is bankrupt, and its citizens owe more than they earn. etc. etc.

The point is that I don't do this because I know that it is not really like that in general. True there are problems, but there are also good things there. The same applies to Europe. Yes there are problems, and any US liberal that describes Europe as perfection is deluded, but your description is equally as deluded. Yes a school here fails, a university there does not deliver. The same happens everywhere.

The education systems in Europe function pretty well thank you. Immigration is part of the social system, has been for the last century and is not a problem except to a few neo nazis. (As legal immigration is not a problem in the USA except to a few White power idiots.)

So calm down, and maybe consider that if Eurpe was in the state you describe it would be going through another sequence of revolutions as it did from the mid 17th to mid 18th centuries.

At least it's correct (regarding the education)
Yes, but it's utterly irrelevant to the thread.

Many people are worried about the future in Europe. Because most of them can feel that their culture and thier children will be replaced by foreigners. At least on a sub conscious level.
In the report it said a third of school population in europe or germany? will be of immgrant background by 2020. That's just sad.
Huh. If Europe hadn't been a warring melting pot populated by very diverese political views and bloody-minded mongrel bastards ready to murder their neighbour at the drop of a hat, we wouldn't have come out as the most powerful and innovative area on the planet, not would we?
(Though I think US ran past us in the 80's, and China seems on its way to run past us both.)

Of course, that's not free of prolems, in fact, it's the complete opposite, but that's what makes it move forward.
US also became great because they accepted (eventually) every race and creed (as long as they adhered to the laws).
Diversity isn't easy or simple, but it does beat isolationism since the later almost invariably lead to stagnation.
Change is nessecary to prosper, and diversity promotes this.
Sometimes through war, but that's humanity for you.

Huh. If Europe hadn't been a warring melting pot populated by very diverese political views and bloody-minded mongrel bastards ready to murder their neighbour at the drop of a hat, we wouldn't have come out as the most powerful and innovative area on the planet, not would we?
(Though I think US ran past us in the 80's, and China seems on its way to run past us both.)

Of course, that's not free of prolems, in fact, it's the complete opposite, but that's what makes it move forward.
US also became great because they accepted (eventually) every race and creed (as long as they adhered to the laws).
Diversity isn't easy or simple, but it does beat isolationism since the later almost invariably lead to stagnation.
Change is nessecary to prosper, and diversity promotes this.
Sometimes through war, but that's humanity for you.

limiting or stopping immigration doesnt mean isolationism. We can still import PS2 's from Japan...

I live in Norway. I have seen first hand European education and the socialism. It does not work. It is crippling Norway and all of Europe.

I live in Norway. I have seen first hand European education and the socialism. It does not work. It is crippling Norway and all of Europe.

Dont be over dramatic. What's "crippling" Norway is taxes on alcohol....

I'm sorry but I'm about to go in search of a cruise missle launch code, either that or a vial of a strong sedative, either will do because you need some serious therapy if you think that the Europe you've described exists anywhere but in you're somewhat warped mind!:mp5:

P.S. You're ranting about two individual countries, there is no reference made to europe as a whole or to any of the institutions of the EU!

France, Germany, and Italy, the biggest, most influential, and most important countries in mainland Europe, and the major components of the EU.

Also, the combination of ad hominem attacks, poor logic and argument, childishness, and gun smilies is far more a cause for cruise missile strike than anything I've said.

Also also, be so kind as to actually try to refute a single thing I said, instead of indulging yourself in meaningless general ridicule?

limiting or stopping immigration doesnt mean isolationism. We can still import PS2 's from Japan...
Yes but I can't understand the instructions.
Frankly, I'd rather go play my banjo. :p

*snip*

Long story short: i agree with you that Europe has failed in some systems (it really depends on country to country), the immigration system here is bad, but you cant really brag about america on this.
About failed socialism, i wouldnt go that far, im not a socialist myself and i consider that Europe in general has done a rather good job. Let alone France, i dont like the french governament either. About religious fandom, well, my friend,
America is the place where that most occurs, please, i hear it all the time, stories of religious looneys going mad, so, european papal fanatiscim doesnt look so bad, firstly, while there arent as many people who agree with him at all (sure, loads of.. erm.. highly regilious persons), but at least, in my country, everybody just seems to laugh at the pope's face, even christians.

Why do people idolize Europe? .

Why?

"It's the culture, stupid!"

It's a je ne sais quois that's pretty clearly lost on you.

No great loss. More europe for me.

Have you ever been to Europe? Lived there, maybe? In any of all these countries that you lump together as though they're all the same?

"Our immigrants aren't violent, don't riot, and don't live in ghettos. They help us economically (if not fiscally), and they don't have an employment problem."

Don't tell me America doesn't have ghettos, or a ghettoised segment of population. I've lived in Ireland and Germany, so I'm qualified to rebuke your claims that Europeans somehow prevent immigrants from helping economically - The Celtic Tiger and the Wirtschaftswunder being spectacular examples of it. As for violence and rioting, it sounds like you're referring to France, who are governed by a Conservative party, not exactly failed Communists. The problems in French society cannot be stretched all over Europe as you suggest.

"A rejected Constitution, France and Germany backsliding into protectionism over employment issues and the influx of cheap workers from Eastern Europe - the economic alliance is looking a bit rough around the areas, and in a regressing rather than progressing way."

Yes, the constitution was rejected, and quite a while ago too. But to suggest that Germany (I concede France) is going protectionist, is frankly bollocks, Merkel is opening the market up in many ways now, which will slowly become obvious. And the Irish economy, one of the best in Europe, is now successfully absorbing and working on hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans, who aren't exactly rioting.

"- Palpa - *ahem* Ratzinger. The Italians never even pushing at the grip of Christian fanaticism, and across the water, France trying to ban individual, personal expression and practice of religion in schools. The historical wars amongst European countries (and their evolution into world wars) makes even more sense in the context of present-day politics and culture."

The Italians are hardly Christian fanatics. The country would once have elected a Communist government but for CIA meddling for crying out loud. And the Pope? A terrifying conservative on paper, but he hasn't exactly sent the church back in time since he came to power - whatever power the Church has these days. France isn't banning 'individual personal expression', just because the uphold the secular nature of their constitution. So they believe in the separation of church and state!

"France. All expressed in one word. No offense to the French on this forum. (It's mainly your government) But damn. It really is pathetic. They cram thousands of immigrants into ghettos with low employment and poor, if any, education or cultural integration, and then act all surprised when they riot."

I dislike Chirac as must as the next man. And yes, their integration and lack thereof is a problem.

"But the French people aren't perfect either; the government tries to give employers minimal rights of some kind, and people riot. Do you have any idea how stupid that is? How can you expect unemployment or the economy to get better if you don't change what you're doing? Companies can't provide more jobs if they're given no freedom to do business! Ironically, the freedom to fire people, among other things, would lead to more positions to hire people into. Obviously, irony is an opaque screen...."

Well, the government wanted employers to be able to fire student workers whenever they wanted, without any reason, in the first 2 years of work. Which basically removes the notion of job security for anyone entering the labour market. Obviously, french students believe in taking to the streets - which is a tried and tested method of change in France, obviously enough. I don't think it's any reason for insulting an entire population. Try electing a really really misguided president for a reason.


"On the whole, it seems to me that Europe is basically a model of the failed integration of systems - egalitarian/socialist democracy with the old class hierarchy, socialist/welfare-state economic policy with participation in a global free market, protectionist tendencies with a free trade alliance, religious establishment with social freedom. And it doesn't really work, and the only real contributions the entire mess has to make are cultural. There, they excel. But politically and economically? .....no. "

Well the most obvious examples of Socialist Democracy are the northern states, you know, the ones with unbelievably low crime, and spectacular political freedoms, as well as buoyant economies? Why do you say these things don't work? I read the article, and it doesn't match up with my experience at all, in fact it seems to just pick and mix examples and facts. You're basically criticising Europe for not being right-wing enough. But here people can get sick and old, and not die in a trailer park. We have higher voter turnouts, lower crime etc - I'm sure you know these already. At least you accept our cultural achievements. But everywhere else you're just speaking out of ideology.

Don't tell me America doesn't have ghettos, or a ghettoised segment of population.

Whether America has ghettos or not is totally irrelevant.

Reminds me of the TEXAS SUCKS post fro:mp5: :gundge: :sniper: m awhile back.

Whether America has ghettos or not is totally irrelevant.

No, its not. The thread starter mentioned the ghettos in Europe, that was the answer to that.

No, its not. The thread starter mentioned the ghettos in Europe, that was the answer to that.

Technically it is irrelevant.

Europe does have some ghettos, that is undeniable. But they are not the norm for Europe. That is a reply to the OP. Whether the USA has ghettos or not is actually irrelevant.
What matters here is that the OP's image of Europe is wrong, not that his image of the USA is also wrong.

Whether America has ghettos or not is totally irrelevant.


"Our immigrants aren't violent, don't riot, and don't live in ghettos."

Well, if he criticises Europe for some ghettos with immigrant populations, I think it's fair game. Isn't the point of his argument that America is superior?

Yes, I am American. Yes, our educational system does suck some very large, very disgusting unmentionable things. But it doesn't appear to suck quite as badly as most of Europe's does.

Really, I just have a strong irritation with Europe, and idolization thereof by American liberals, that mounts with almost every newsbite I read relating to it. This was just a rant stemming from yet another source of irritation.

Basically, between immigration, (yes, it is definitely worse than ours; at least ours benefits us economically) the EU falling apart in the face of protectionist backlash to the apparently freakish idea of international free trade, the general miasma of socialism, the social-conservatism of Italy under the influence of the Vatican, and France (need I say more?), most of mainland Europe just seems to be going down the tubes, and the fact that liberals I know continue to glorify it as the model of a successful socialist (or pseudosocialist, wannabe socialist, working-on-it-but-not-really-socialist-just-yet, etc.) system pisses me off.

To elaborate on all of those things:

- Yes, their immigration problem is worse. Our immigrants aren't violent, don't riot, and don't live in ghettos. They help us economically (if not fiscally), and they don't have an employment problem.

- So you have the EU, widely thought to be the next superpower, along with China. I would agree, except that they're falling apart at the seams. A rejected Constitution, France and Germany backsliding into protectionism over employment issues and the influx of cheap workers from Eastern Europe - the economic alliance is looking a bit rough around the areas, and in a regressing rather than progressing way.

- Palpa - *ahem* Ratzinger. The Italians never even pushing at the grip of Christian fanaticism, and across the water, France trying to ban individual, personal expression and practice of religion in schools. The historical wars amongst European countries (and their evolution into world wars) makes even more sense in the context of present-day politics and culture.

- France. All expressed in one word. No offense to the French on this forum. (It's mainly your government) But damn. It really is pathetic. They cram thousands of immigrants into ghettos with low employment and poor, if any, education or cultural integration, and then act all surprised when they riot. They apparently decide their country is too good for the iPod, because there's not a snowball's chance in hell Apple will sell anything in France when they decide to selectively abolish intellectual property.

But the French people aren't perfect either; the government tries to give employers minimal rights of some kind, and people riot. Do you have any idea how stupid that is? How can you expect unemployment or the economy to get better if you don't change what you're doing? Companies can't provide more jobs if they're given no freedom to do business! Ironically, the freedom to fire people, among other things, would lead to more positions to hire people into. Obviously, irony is an opaque screen....

- As far as the education things goes, I read the article. I've read similar things, though never as complete, elsewhere. So I ranted.

On the whole, it seems to me that Europe is basically a model of the failed integration of systems - egalitarian/socialist democracy with the old class hierarchy, socialist/welfare-state economic policy with participation in a global free market, protectionist tendencies with a free trade alliance, religious establishment with social freedom. And it doesn't really work, and the only real contributions the entire mess has to make are cultural. There, they excel. But politically and economically? .....no.

So, yeah, ranting some more. I should really learn my lesson the first time something gets me in trouble....then again, stubbornness has always been a stronger trait than common sense in me.

look, we get the point! your clearly more enlightened about the world then anyone else here, you know more about europe than europeans do and you can obviously do what thousands of politicians and people have failed to do. you obviously should spend your time hating europe instead of trying to focusing on how to improve your own country. oh and yes all the countries in europe are the same, they are all falling apart due to socialism of course!

Yawn...to save Jolt some bandwith, I'll just summerize the next 10 pages of "Debate".

America Sucks, Europe is superior, and the Chinese are good at math.

Your welcome, jolt.

"Our immigrants aren't violent, don't riot, and don't live in ghettos."

Well, if he criticises Europe for some ghettos with immigrant populations, I think it's fair game. Isn't the point of his argument that America is superior?

I missed him saying that. Mea Cupla.

However the two cannot be compared properly. The USA is one nation whereas Europe is many nations all with their own government styles, cultures education.

Technically it is irrelevant.

Europe does have some ghettos, that is undeniable. But they are not the norm for Europe. That is a reply to the OP. Whether the USA has ghettos or not is actually irrelevant.
What matters here is that the OP's image of Europe is wrong, not that his image of the USA is also wrong.

Fine, you are right about that. Yet, it is not irrelevant to discuss it, or at least just answer, since the OP mentioned it. This discussion is suposed to be open and dynamic.

And im not saying Europe does not have ghettos, hell, i live in Portugal, i know what ghettos are. I just said "America" was in no place to brag about their un-ghettoness. Im not sure about this, but, ghettos in america seem much more dangerous than the ones we have here.

France, Germany, and Italy, the biggest, most influential, and most important countries in mainland Europe, and the major components of the EU.

Also, the combination of ad hominem attacks, poor logic and argument, childishness, and gun smilies is far more a cause for cruise missile strike than anything I've said.

Also also, be so kind as to actually try to refute a single thing I said, instead of indulging yourself in meaningless general ridicule?
Okay then try this on for size, the three countries you have made reference to are all from what is now termed the 'old' Europe, with the incorporation of 10 new countries into the european union their power and influence has been greatly diluted, plus although the Council of Ministers may have judicial oversight when it comes to matters of education and welfare to this day they have not made any sweeping reforms. Plus I have yet to find any reference in your posts as to europe as a whole, no subtantial reference to EU countries such as Portugal, Spain, Britain, Hungary, Croatia, Cyprus etc.

Europe is superior.

The Truth is spoken. :)

Fine, you are right about that. Yet, it is not irrelevant to discuss it, or at least just answer, since the OP mentioned it. This discussion is suposed to be open and dynamic.

And im not saying Europe does not have ghettos, hell, i live in Portugal, i know what ghettos are. I just said "America" was in no place to brag about their un-ghettoness. Im not sure about this, but, ghettos in america seem much more dangerous than the ones we have here.

I am not denying that, but the strategy leads to the permanent competição de mijar that occupies NS General. Seria mais inteligente mostrar como o OP errou, né?

I am not denying that, but the strategy leads to the permanent competição de mijar that occupies NS General. Seria mais inteligente mostrar como o OP errou, né?

LOL!

Pois é. :D

The German system really is horrible though, I can vouch for that.

But generalising that to "Europe" is pretty dumb. Look at Finland - best education system in the world (and I believe they spend less per student than the US does).

The German system really is horrible though, I can vouch for that.

But generalising that to "Europe" is pretty dumb. Look at Finland - best education system in the world (and I believe they spend less per student than the US does).

Everyone keeps citing Finland and Scandanavia as shining examples of European socialist welfare states. What is the point? So maybe the welfare state works if you apply it to a nation of five million, but most of the countries that are included in this sweeping generalization are between 12 to 16 times the size of Finland. Despite the difference in size they attempt to force the same system to work on their countries. It doesn't work for the same reason direct democracy is impractical. What works great for a small number of people will often have catastrophic results when applied on a much larger scale.
So for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, stop refering to these tiny countries that are "proof" of Europe's superior system.

Everyone keeps citing Finland and Scandanavia as shining examples of European socialist welfare states. What is the point? So maybe the welfare state works if you apply it to a nation of five million, but most of the countries that are included in this sweeping generalization are between 12 to 16 times the size of Finland. Despite the difference in size they attempt to force the same system to work on their countries. It doesn't work for the same reason direct democracy is impractical. What works great for a small number of people will often have catastrophic results when applied on a much larger scale.
So for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, stop refering to these tiny countries that are "proof" of Europe's superior system.
How is it "socialist" if Finland actually spends less per capita on its education system? Oh, and furthermore, these nations are welfare capitalist, NOT socialist.

How is it "socialist" if Finland actually spends less per capita on its education system? Oh, and furthermore, these nations are welfare capitalist, NOT socialist.

Well, it's "welfare" something or other.

In any case, I think it should be said that Europe does its own thing (and to a large extent, the individual countries are more different than some think). And the US does it own thing. You even get different results across countries doing the same or opposite thing.

It's best not to tell people on the other side of the planet how to live.

As for me, I think the way I live is the only way to live, and I think everyone should live this way.

How is it "socialist" if Finland actually spends less per capita on its education system? Oh, and furthermore, these nations are welfare capitalist, NOT socialist.
Okay, let's make the issue eaiser. Finland and other small prosperous european countries are poor representations of europe as a whole, and should not be cited to refute the statements made by the author of this thread.

Well, it's "welfare" something or other.

In any case, I think it should be said that Europe does its own thing (and to a large extent, the individual countries are more different than some think). And the US does it own thing. You even get different results across countries doing the same or opposite thing.

It's best not to tell people on the other side of the planet how to live.

As for me, I think the way I live is the only way to live, and I think everyone should live this way.
Hey, I am not saying I like the Scandinavian model. I am just clearing up some misconceptions on it. It goes against my minarchist predilections.

Okay, let's make the issue eaiser. Finland and other small prosperous european countries are poor representations of europe as a whole, and should not be cited to refute the statements made by the author of this thread.
The author, who makes such very generalisations and treats Europe as one integral whole?

So for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, stop refering to these tiny countries that are "proof" of Europe's superior system.
I would like you to show me where I did such a thing. Indeed, I think I made it pretty clear that you cannot generalise.

In Scandinavia, those countries have managed to create welfare states that work very well indeed. That serves as nothing but a demonstration that it is possible. I don't think the "only because those countries are so small" argument works at all. If you increase the number of taxpayers, you can increase the amount of money you spend on government programs - as long as the ratio and the methods employed remain roughly the same, size doesn't really matter.

Does that mean I'm supportive of any of these systems? No, it does not. Because I happen to be an FDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freie_Demokratische_Partei) supporter.

Everyone keeps citing Finland and Scandanavia as shining examples of European socialist welfare states. What is the point? So maybe the welfare state works if you apply it to a nation of five million, but most of the countries that are included in this sweeping generalization are between 12 to 16 times the size of Finland. Despite the difference in size they attempt to force the same system to work on their countries. It doesn't work for the same reason direct democracy is impractical. What works great for a small number of people will often have catastrophic results when applied on a much larger scale.
So for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, stop refering to these tiny countries that are "proof" of Europe's superior system.

We are shining examples because we are all that and more :D

We are shining examples because we are all that and more :D
You flatter yourself. :p

In Scandinavia, those countries have managed to create welfare states that work very well indeed. That serves as nothing but a demonstration that it is possible. I don't think the "only because those countries are so small" argument works at all. If you increase the number of taxpayers, you can increase the amount of money you spend on government programs - as long as the ratio and the methods employed remain roughly the same, size doesn't really matter.
I agree with your logic but the world is not always a logical place. Historically it would seem that as the size of such nations is increased, their chances of making such a system work decrease greatly. Indeed, look at most of the larger nations in Europe.

You used Finland as an example in an arguement in which it was irrelevant. That is all I was complaining about. This tread is poorly written but its point is still discernable(Kind of like my posts). It is not about finland, or the like. It is about the major problems that have arisen out of the whole political mindset of most large European nations.

It is not about finland, or the like. It is about the major problems that have arisen out of the whole political mindset of most large European nations.
And even there you are still generalising. Check out the differences between German Ordoliberalism, and French Regulationism.

And even there you are still generalising.

I never said that the problems stemmed from a shared political mindset. Simply that most european nations are suffering from the consequences of their political mindset whether it be ordoliberalism or regulationism.

The Most High Bob Dole said:

"You used Finland as an example in an arguement in which it was irrelevant. That is all I was complaining about. This tread is poorly written but its point is still discernable(Kind of like my posts). It is not about finland, or the like. It is about the major problems that have arisen out of the whole political mindset of most large European nations."

Finland is European. We can't use France for every example you know.

This tread is poorly written - Ha!

Does that mean I'm supportive of any of these systems? No, it does not. Because I happen to be an FDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freie_Demokratische_Partei) supporter.
I like them too. The closest Germany has to an LP.

Finland is European. We can't use France for every example you know.
France is more represetative of europe as a whole. There are countries in Europe other than France that are more representative of the continent than Finland.

I never said that the problems stemmed from a shared political mindset. Simply that most european nations are suffering from the consequences of their political mindset whether it be ordoliberalism or regulationism.
In other words, all you were saying is "some European nations are having trouble as a result of failing government programs".

Which isn't saying very much at all, but I suppose at least it's correct.

France is more represetative of europe as a whole. There are countries in Europe other than France that are more representative of the continent than Finland.
Yes, France is more representative than Finland, but not more so than Finland, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Ireland, Britain, Spain - Spain has a socialist government and its economy is climbing. Are you sure you're not just angry at Chirac? And where did the original poster go anyway?

And where did the original poster go anyway?

He was banished to hell for eternity for using the Flying Spaghetti Monster's name in vain.

Ok if u want to rock your world by disproving the bolded area google "immigration, netherlands" or things like that. You 'll see 40% of immigrants there are in welfare and they are economically indeed bad for netherlands. I guess immigrants get more than they give in Denmark too. And maybe belgium and some others? Anyway...

40% is a minority. A large minority but still a minorit

Europe needs to protect its culture by BANNING immagration to those nation. Soon those Muslims will demand rights. And they will do anything to get them and soon they will take Europe and Make it an Islamic State, Just look at "CARE" in the United States. Soon their will be a Islamic Theocracy Flag flying over the White House. The West should not let Muslims who want to kill them into their nation. They are Radical Libbys who think terrorist are good and kind people. The West needs to relize the treat against them. The U.S needs to ban the Radical Left Party and bring in a Moderate Goverment. And Europe needs a Modern Goverment Rennassance or something. Lets get the Socalist Leaders out along with the Sissy tree huggers. Oh ya by the Way. The U.S and Europe needs to use their own oil. Who is stupid enough to get oil from someone who wants to hurt them. I am an American and I think the U.S needs to get the 50's era and way of life back into their head. And Europe needs to preserve its great history and culture. Look at french culture now. They just flushed their sence into the toilet!

What a crazy century this is!:headbang:

I love Europe's answer to it's social problems, though; immigrants, immigrants and more immigrants.

I love Europe's answer to it's social problems, though; immigrants, immigrants and more immigrants.
Because the opposite works so well....

I love Europe's answer to it's social problems, though; immigrants, immigrants and more immigrants.A common misconception by people that have no idea of Europe ;)

A common misconception by people that have no idea of Europe ;)

You're a Turkish Immigrant, aren't you?


Turkish Immigrant!

You're a Turkish Immigrant, aren't you?


Turkish Immigrant!
As a recent study found out, 20% of all German residents are either migrants or descended from migrants. ;)

I think Europe is great.. I can't wait to go to Italy, Ireland and France next year. I guess I look at it thruogh tourist eyes though.. So Education and whatever else means absolutely nothing to me.

As a recent study found out, 20% of all German residents are either migrants or descended from migrants. ;)

Really? Hoo boy...


You hear that, K-P?

Pathetic? You're funny.

I will be short:

Literacy:
USA = 99,0%
Latvia = 99,8% (and that's my small Eastern Europe and EU country for you)

Source: CIA - The World factbook
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook

Really? Hoo boy...


You hear that, K-P?

Yes. That's why Europe is doomed. China has that song, "The East is Red", and in 20 years, we will have a song, called "The West is America."

You are wrong. I am swedish so over course I idealize Europe.

Why would I cara about USA,
americans idolize their country.

And we are not socialistic we have other variants of right and left.
You americans only see socialism but it isn't socialism to have welfare.

I agree about the eligitarian ideals. There is much censure
and I hate it but you are being wrong in thinking this something socialistic.
Right wing people usualy also push egilitarian ideals.

Also various European nations are different.
France and Brittain seem quite right wing to me.

There is nothing wrong with generalising Europe
if you grant us the same liberty regarding USA.
Which we have taken for granted a long time.
In Europe most slightly despise USA becouse of pride
but some right wing people worship USA.

Also, we in Europe. Our education system does work excellent
and our taxes ARE going to good use.
Other parts are less good of course.

You can't imagine the befits I have without needing to work
and the state would even help me finance a company if I get the grades.

If you talk about Scandinavia for scandinavia.
Then we are not socialistic and the welfare system and the edication is excellent. I am an swedish citizen so I think I can say so.

What you do got right is that the control is to tight and the ethic is a problem
in the way of reality.

There is much problems and intolerance to new ideas or to critic in general.
More tolerant and less moralistic attitudes would be nice.

Europe is great but what really maeks us better than USA is our culture and nationalistic history.

Also Europe focus more on quality and USA is more quantity,
We have different taste and style.

Yes. That's why Europe is doomed. China has that song, "The East is Red", and in 20 years, we will have a song, called "The West is America."

*yawn*

I'm just quaking in my boots.

Europe is great but what really maeks us better than USA is our culture and nationalistic history.

What culture? Women wearing tents?:D

*yawn*

I'm just quaking in my boots.

I don't care what you think. You can't stop statistics.

He's absolutely right. Europe does suck in all aspects. It will fall to its doom within the year and would've have been destroyed by communism, The Great Enemy as we all know except the ones blinded by greed and evilness, if not for teh Almighty USA to help us all out. Our continentalised education system does indeed suck, and we were wrong in trying to improve the economy of countries who used to be part of the Warschau Pact. They are evil and communists.

No, the USA is a prime example of pure goodness, the pinnacle of civilisation, paradise on earth. They have shown us how to elect a proper president. In the last 50 years, their presidents have always followed a perfect course of action. There is no discrimination there, no gangs, no poverty and there have never been scandals. Every US citizen knows how to write, read, and the complete topography of the Middle-East.They have always shown a dislike for violence but were indeed willing to intervene out of pure selfishness if needed.

I can't see how you all failed to miss that.

I can if I kill every last American...

WE have a problem with our money/ budget etc...?

Look at the USA. They have a sky rocketing state defecit that would have send the country into economical oblivion long ago if Europe had not granted eerilly high credits to the USA.

Nevertheless, even if the USA are spending both their own money and Europe's money, they still have a poverty rate of 13 %

Whereas Europe, in spite of only spending its own money, still maintains a wellefare system so that poverty rates are the lowest in the world.

Europe is not perfect, but at least it cares about its own.

Vive la Europe. Its steeped in culture and history.

Yes. That's why Europe is doomed. China has that song, "The East is Red", and in 20 years, we will have a song, called "The West is America."

Pfft. No-one's buying into your scare tactics, K-P. Despite your feverish rantings, Europe will never become some massive Muslim Uberstate which will be completely corrupt and Islamic.

I would argue it with you, but you've never yielded to sensible arguments before.

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks

I went to high school in Poland, and went to US as an exchange student. Don't get me wrong, I had a blast, met some awesome, intelligent people, and my overall experience was very positive. BUT... When it comes to high school education...

Those questions were ask by high school students:

-Where is Poland? (cool, it's a small country, they don't need to know, so I tell them it's in Europe)

-Where is Europe? (ok...?)

-Is Poland in Russia? (ok, i see why you may assume that...kinda...)

-Is Poland in Africa? (wtf?)

-What language do you speak in Poland? (hmmm...)

-Do you have electricity in Poland? (no, we live in caves)

-Really? OMG, did you hear that? I knew you were poor, but...So, you've never seen a computer before?

etc. etc.


So yeah, Europe's education system may suck, but let me tell you, US education system is not that great either...

Pfft. No-one's buying into your scare tactics, K-P. Despite your feverish rantings, Europe will never become some massive Muslim Uberstate which will be completely corrupt and Islamic.

I would argue it with you, but you've never yielded to sensible arguments before.

It's not scare tactics, it's the truth. Europe will be a muslims state by 2075. 2100 at the latest.

Europe will be a muslims state by 2075. 2100 at the latest.

Why?

It's not scare tactics, it's the truth. Europe will be a muslims state by 2075. 2100 at the latest.

One hundred years in the future? OOooooOOO. Scary stuff, my friend. So what? In 100 years, we might all be cyborgs. Or dead. Or one massive world superstate ala Starship Troopers. Really, that isn't scary at all.

One hundred years in the future? OOooooOOO. Scary stuff, my friend. So what? In 100 years, we might all be cyborgs. Or dead. Or one massive world superstate ala Starship Troopers. Really, that isn't scary at all.

If you dont care about the future just shut up and let the ones who does care comment. Why do you keep posting multiple posts on something you dont care?

because he cares about the moronic actions that you propose now?

It's not scare tactics, it's the truth. Europe will be a muslims state by 2075. 2100 at the latest.
O gazer of crystal balls, please inform me who will win the 2066 world cup finals as you obviously have access to knowledge of the future.

O gazer of crystal balls, please inform me who will win the 2066 world cup finals as you obviously have access to knowledge of the future.

I don't think statistics lie. Growth rates indicate that Europe will be muslim within the next century.

Why?

Growth and immigration rates.

Vive la Europe. Its steeped in culture and history.
It won't be for much longer if things carry on the way they are. If muslims reach a majority, they'll do what's in their nature and completely culturally destroy Europe, turning it into their own islamic state.

It won't be for much longer if things carry on the way they are. If muslims reach a majority, they'll do what's in their nature and completely culturally destroy Europe, turning it into their own islamic state.

This is actually the most amusing part of the thread. It is in their 'nature'? Really, that truly is fascinating. Please, do go on. Tell me more about how it is in the Muslim 'nature' to culturally destroy things...

I don't think statistics lie. Growth rates indicate that Europe will be muslim within the next century.

And in 1890, the rate of increase of horse drawn traffic in Europoe indicated that we would be six feet deep in horse shit by 1950. Statistics again.

What was it the Mark Twain said again?

It won't be for much longer if things carry on the way they are. If muslims reach a majority, they'll do what's in their nature and completely culturally destroy Europe, turning it into their own islamic state.

No way!! Look at all those majority muslim countries, all democratic and progressive. :rolleyes:

It's not scare tactics, it's the truth. Europe will be a muslims state by 2075. 2100 at the latest.
Does this come from the same people who predicted that religion would have died out by now?

okay, now if the original post was about this kind of islamophobia and xenophobia then I would wholeheartedly agree that "Europe is Pathetic"

And in 1890, the rate of increase of horse drawn traffic in Europoe indicated that we would be six feet deep in horse shit by 1950. Statistics again.

Yeah, because shit doesn't degrade. It breeds!

Does this come from the same people who predicted that religion would have died out by now?

Who predicted that?

Yeah, because shit doesn't degrade. It breeds!

Yes, I've noticed...

Europe is pathetic? EUROPE? Look at the USA!

Yeah, because shit doesn't degrade. It breeds!

So you still believe that statistics can predict the future. Stupid in more ways than one then.

It won't be for much longer if things carry on the way they are. If muslims reach a majority, they'll do what's in their nature and completely culturally destroy Europe, turning it into their own islamic state.Just like they completely destroyed Spain and Portugal...

So you still believe that statistics can predict the future. Stupid in more ways than one then.

If trends continue, statistics does predict the future. The point about mentioning statistics is to highlight the need to change trends. I know intelligence wanes as people age, but you gotta take better care of yourself...

Just like they completely destroyed Spain and Portugal...

Indeed. Both are well-known oppressive Muslim states on the verge of conquering Europe...

Just like they completely destroyed Spain and Portugal...

No, they only conquered Iberia and banged their women.

No, they only conquer Iberia and banged their women.

Yes...


Refresh my memory. How many hundreds of years ago was this again?

why do you think this trend will continue? 100 years is a long time.

100 years ago someone decided that scientifically we were almost done discovering things. No one has ever been able to predict a hundred years ahead, and you're no exception

]If trends continue, statistics does predict the future. The point about mentioning statistics is to highlight the need to change trends. I know intelligence wanes as people age, but you gotta take better care of yourself...

Get the grammar right NN. Statistics are plural so it is "statistics do predict"

Single variant statistics do not predict the future of anything in the real world. Or haven't you realised that the world is made up of complex interactions yet. I suppose it is possible givven your childish perspective on the world. You may, in the future, aquire some maturity, but somehow it seems unlikely.

What was it the Mark Twain said again?
History doesn't repeat itself; It rhymes.

What? He did sya that... I think.

No, they only conquered Iberia and banged their women.Failed that part of history class, have we?

why do you think this trend will continue? 100 years is a long time.

100 years ago someone decided that scientifically we were almost done discovering things. No one has ever been able to predict a hundred years ahead, and you're no exception

In order for the statistics to fail, all European muslims will have to either drop dead or become impotent, or all other Europeans will have to start breeding like bunnies.

Get the grammar right NN. Statistics are plural so it is "statistics do predict"

Single variant statistics do not predict the future of anything in the real world. Or haven't you realised that the world is made up of complex interactions yet. I suppose it is possible givven your childish perspective on the world. You may, in the future, aquire some maturity, but somehow it seems unlikely.

Correcting my grammer? Keep sinking.
Also I advise you to learn some basic math. If a country's native population is declining while that country receives constant immigration (and the immigrants in the country are breeding faster), that country will loose its native majority. If maturity is contrasting horse shit rates and population trends, you can keep it to yourself...

Failed that part of history class, have we?

Yep. And muslims were peaceful, and the Battle of Tours didn't happen! Yes! And the Battle of Vienna also didn't happen!

Yep. And muslims were peaceful, and the Battle of Tours didn't happen! Yes! And the Battle of Vienna also didn't happen!Just proves that muslims weren't any more or less barbaric than the "original" inhabitants. Hardly a worthy argument to claim that muslims are so evil.

Correcting my grammer? Keep sinking.
Also I advise you to learn some basic math. If a country's native population is declining while that country receives constant immigration (and the immigrants in the country are breeding faster), that country will loose its native majority. If maturity is contrasting horse shit rates and population trends, you can keep it to yourself...

Just helping the foreigner, a courtesy you would know little about.

Oh, my maths is easily good enough to do the projections, but my knowledge of geography, demographics and sociology is sufficient to let me know that doing so is pointless.

If you think I was comparing horse shit with population you seriously have a comprehension problem.

Just proves that muslims weren't any more or less barbaric than the "original" inhabitants. Hardly a worthy argument to claim that muslims are so evil.

Never said they were evil. Just looking forward to owning their pet Europe.

Just helping the foreigner, a courtesy you would know little about.

Oh, my maths is easily good enough to do the projections, but my knowledge of geography, demographics and sociology is sufficient to let me know that doing so is pointless.

If you think I was comparing horse shit with population you seriously have a comprehension problem.

So anything can happen in future and we should ignore trends? Maybe then we should stop caring about Global Warming. Maybe aliens will come and save us. :rolleyes:
I didnt say you were constrasting horse shit with population. Get a clue. I said population trends. Wasnt it your point? Horse shit predictions were silly so is population predictions?

Never said they were evil. Just looking forward to owning their pet Europe.Of course, since you don't live here, you don't really have all that much reason to care anyway.

Never said they were evil. Just looking forward to owning their pet Europe.

Including Norway?

And how are the immigration rates looking for Australia?

And how are the immigration rates looking for Australia?Why don't we ask the indigenous population...

FIRST EVER EVER POST FEEL PRIVLEDGED PEOPLE! didnt even read the whole topic becuase its so long but just wanna say im from northern ireland and we've got the worlds second best education system after new zealand, well so i'm told... No wonder the world hates America.....

In order for the statistics to fail, all European muslims will have to either drop dead or become impotent, or all other Europeans will have to start breeding like bunnies.
Haven't you learned? Religion isn't genetic. Within 2-3 generations the descendants of muslim immigrants will either be so moderate it doesn't matter or will have abandoned their religion entirely. This assumes, however, that they aren't excluded from society and treated like second class citizens. Second generation immigrants already have much fewer kids than first generation ones.

So anything can happen in future and we should ignore trends? Maybe then we should stop caring about Global Warming. Maybe aliens will come and save us. :rolleyes:
I didnt say you were constrasting horse shit with population. Get a clue. I said population trends. Wasnt it your point? Horse shit predictions were silly so is population predictions?

Do you really think that your posts disappear. You did say I was comparing horse shit with population, but meh.

No, I am not saying that we should stop caring about the future, but I am saying that futurology is a pointless exercise. It is one of those cases where if we look after the small local details the overal picture will take care of itself.

If you are concerned about the caucasian birth rate dropping, go have children rather than post here.

If you are worried about global warming, reduce your personal carbon emission level. etc.

Action is far better than words in most cases, partcularly when the words are impossible to support.

My point was that single variant statistics are ineffective in long term predicition.

Yep. And muslims were peaceful, and the Battle of Tours didn't happen! Yes! And the Battle of Vienna also didn't happen!

I also find it amusing that you say modern German's shouldn't be blamed for the Holocaust, but are more than willing to use the actions of Muslims hundreds of years ago to attack Muslims today.

Hypocritical, no?

Do you really think that your posts disappear. You did say I was comparing horse shit with population, but meh.


Are you really this pathetic to prove yourself right or have you got this much low comprehension skills? Seriously. Take good care of yourself. Eat well and do sports. Your neurons are dieing really fast, obviously.


Correcting my grammer? Keep sinking.
Also I advise you to learn some basic math. If a country's native population is declining while that country receives constant immigration (and the immigrants in the country are breeding faster), that country will loose its native majority. If maturity is contrasting horse shit rates and population trends , you can keep it to yourself...



No, I am not saying that we should stop caring about the future, but I am saying that futurology is a pointless exercise. It is one of those cases where if we look after the small local details the overal picture will take care of itself.

If you are concerned about the caucasian birth rate dropping, go have children rather than post here.

If you are worried about global warming, reduce your personal carbon emission level. etc.

Action is far better than words in most cases, partcularly when the words are impossible to support.

My point was that single variant statistics are ineffective in long term predicition.

So we got statistics about a meteor moving towards Earth and it is predicted that it'll hit Earth. I guess "wise" old people like you will argue "single variant statistics are ineffective in long term predicition" and want us to do nothing.

Are you really this pathetic to prove yourself right or have you got this much low comprehension skills? Seriously. Take good care of yourself. Eat well and do sports. Your neurons are dieing really fast, obviously.
A response to a genuine question is a series of personal insults that are worthy of a kindergarten! Do you really believe that what you post disappears? As you keep saying that you did not say things you did say.

So we got statistics about a meteor moving towards Earth and it is predicted that it'll hit Earth. I guess "wise" old people like you will argue "single variant statistics are ineffective in long term predicition" and want us to do nothing.

So you think that the complexities of social interaction are equivalent to the dynamics involved in an inanimate piece of rock in orbit. You have a lot yet to learn my child.

They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration.

And in contrast we're doing a wonderful job of controlling the flow here?

A response to a genuine question is a series of personal insults that are worthy of a kindergarten! Do you really believe that what you post disappears? As you keep saying that you did not say things you did say.


Are you still here? Your struggles are becoming really sad, beyond being pathetic. I did say "population trends". And the post is unedited as you can(or maybe cant?) see.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11118039&postcount=180


So you think that the complexities of social interaction are equivalent to the dynamics involved in an inanimate piece of rock in orbit. You have a lot yet to learn my child.

I'm not your child. If you are going to take a lecturing attitude make sure not to sound so idiotic. "If a country's native population is declining while that country receives constant immigration (and the immigrants in the country are breeding faster), that country will loose its native majority." This isnt social interaction. It is math. It is numbers. Similarly, if the meteor's vector doesnt change it'll hit Earth.
But considering your lack of math skills I'm sure you'll argue that it is "universal interactions" and the meteor should be left alone and variants (like vectors) cant predict the future.

I say death to all Americans!

them->:confused: armys of the world killing them->:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

kill them all!:confused: :gundge::sniper::mp5::mp5:

to you americans....:upyours:

I say death to all Americans!

them->:confused: armys of the world killing them->:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

kill them all!:confused: :gundge::sniper::mp5::mp5:

to you americans....:upyours:

Dude. You've already been reported in Moderation. This really isn't helping.

I say death to all Americans!

them->:confused: armys of the world killing them->:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

kill them all!:confused: :gundge::sniper::mp5::mp5:

to you americans....:upyours:

You know you'll get banned soon. Gauw tot ziens.

its called freedom of speech! I can say what I want!

Like go commies!

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

its called freedom of speech!

Doesn't exist here.

Dance bitch, dance!

its called freedom of speech! I can say what I want!

Like go commies!

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Yes you can, but you will end up saying it elsewhere.

its called freedom of speech! I can say what I want!

Like go commies!

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Nope, you can't. This is a private forum that has rules and a ToS. You are, I beluieve, breaching them. Thus, you can't say what you want. You have no such rights here.

Indeed. Both are well-known oppressive Muslim states on the verge of conquering Europe...
I dunno about you, but I wouldn't want to be a non-muslim living in Moorish Spain. And the only reason they're not oppressive muslim states is that the christian rulers who regained the Iberian Peninsula had the good sense to kick the muslims out.

I say death to all Americans!

them->:confused: armys of the world killing them->:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

kill them all!:confused: :gundge::sniper::mp5::mp5:

to you americans....:upyours:

Wow, I had never thought of that. Thank you for illuminating such a subtle and sophisticated side of this issue. I will proceed to forget everything I know about the kind and intelligent people that live in America, forget about the fact that all the armies of the world would only just have a fighting chance if they took on America, and eagerly await America's demise.

I dunno about you, but I wouldn't want to be a non-muslim living in Moorish Spain. And the only reason they're not oppressive muslim states is that the christian rulers who regained the Iberian Peninsula had the good sense to kick the muslims out.

The perhaps it's fortunate that Spain hasn't been Moorish in a fair few generations...

The perhaps it's fortunate that Spain hasn't been Moorish in a fair few generations...
IIRC, Ferdinand and Isabella finally finished off both the Moors and the Jews quite some time ago...

IIRC, Ferdinand and Isabella finally finished off both the Moors and the Jews quite some time ago...

Well, how about that then...

It's a shame that Genghis Kahn didn't take over europe 1000 years ago. Then there would be no cities to riot in, no pesky government to whine about, and no knowledge to teach in any rediculious education system.

How close we came to utopia.

Yes, I am American. Yes, our educational system does suck some very large, very disgusting unmentionable things. But it doesn't appear to suck quite as badly as most of Europe's does.
Most of Europe's?

Which countries are they?
Basically, between immigration, (yes, it is definitely worse than ours; at least ours benefits us economically)
Immigration benefits the EU states as well, and it's nice to have some non-white, non-Christian people in Europe for a change.
the EU falling apart in the face of protectionist backlash to the apparently freakish idea of international free trade
International free trade is great for the US, but not as good for some of the new EU states who need to build their economies up.
the general miasma of socialism
Ensuring that our citizens can live in an alright fashion even when unemployed is not a bad thing, nor is keeping the elderly alive, or indeed making sure that everyone is properly educated.
the social-conservatism of Italy under the influence of the Vatican
If Italy was so under the influence of the Vatican, why on earth is their birth rate so low?

If they were actually under the influence of the Vatican, pretty much every time that an Italian had sex, they'd have a child. This is clearly not the case.
France (need I say more?)
Yes. I want to know what your problem with France is.
most of mainland Europe just seems to be going down the tubes, and the fact that liberals I know continue to glorify it as the model of a successful socialist (or pseudosocialist, wannabe socialist, working-on-it-but-not-really-socialist-just-yet, etc.) system pisses me off.
The only country that really claims to be socialist is Sweden. And look at their country. It's quite possibly the best one in the world.
To elaborate on all of those things:

- Yes, their immigration problem is worse. Our immigrants aren't violent, don't riot, and don't live in ghettos. They help us economically (if not fiscally), and they don't have an employment problem.
In the USA, replace "immigrants" in that paragraph for "black people". The picture is the same in both places.
- So you have the EU, widely thought to be the next superpower, along with China.
The next two superpowers are going to be China and India, unless a European Federation is created (which is a bit unlikely).

I would agree, except that they're falling apart at the seams. A rejected Constitution
It was rejected because it was crap, basically.
France and Germany backsliding into protectionism over employment issues
And also because their industry isn't that good...
and the influx of cheap workers from Eastern Europe the one that's helping the Irish and British economies to grow, you mean?
the economic alliance is looking a bit rough around the areas, and in a regressing rather than progressing way.
A currency change does that to countries, you know...
- Palpa - *ahem* Ratzinger. The Italians never even pushing at the grip of Christian fanaticism, and across the water, France trying to ban individual, personal expression and practice of religion in schools.
Yeah, the French have seperated the state and religion. That's not really a big deal. People are perfectly allowed to practise whatever religion they choose as long as it's not interfering with the state's wishes.

The historical wars amongst European countries (and their evolution into world wars) makes even more sense in the context of present-day politics and culture.
Urmm... right. I don't see how at all, since the EU is pretty much united in its condemnation of the Iraq war and other such issues. Europe's actually getting along pretty well.

- France. All expressed in one word. No offense to the French on this forum. (It's mainly your government) But damn. It really is pathetic. They cram thousands of immigrants into ghettos with low employment and poor, if any, education or cultural integration, and then act all surprised when they riot.
As I said previously, replace "immigrants" in the EU and "black people" in the US and you get a pretty similar picture.
They apparently decide their country is too good for the iPod, because there's not a snowball's chance in hell Apple will sell anything in France when they decide to selectively abolish intellectual property.
More money for Creative, then.
But the French people aren't perfect either; the government tries to give employers minimal rights of some kind, and people riot.
You do realise that the reforms meant that anyone could be sacked within 3 years with absolutely no valid reason, right?
Do you have any idea how stupid that is? How can you expect unemployment or the economy to get better if you don't change what you're doing?
Possibly the economy might improve when French industry gets back on its feet, and that'll happen by more modern methods of production, rather than by letting people get sacked...
Companies can't provide more jobs if they're given no freedom to do business! Ironically, the freedom to fire people, among other things, would lead to more positions to hire people into.
No, it'd lead to the same number of positions, but more people out of a job now and then. If you sack someone, you don't get two jobs created, do you?

On the whole, it seems to me that Europe is basically a model of the failed integration of systems - egalitarian/socialist democracy with the old class hierarchy
As opposed to the US, where you're now poor or rich, rather than working/lower/middle/upper class, yeah?
socialist/welfare-state economic policy with participation in a global free market
Yes, to make more money to help European people with...
protectionist tendencies with a free trade alliance
Yes, it's called the EEC. It makes trade between EEC nations free generally the newer, poorer nations are benefitting a lot from this.
religious establishment with social freedom.
Oh yeah... like in... oh... wait a tick! No religious establishment anywhere!
And it doesn't really work
Says someone from a country with the world's largest, and fastest increasing debt, which has yet to help its own population benefit from its vast amounts of money...
and the only real contributions the entire mess has to make are cultural. There, they excel. But politically and economically? .....no.
There's nothing wrong with Europe politically or economically... yeah, they're not particularly large economically or influencial in that manner, but without Europe propping up the US' debt, you'd be screwed.

And we have much, much fairer elections here than in the US, I think you'll find.
So, yeah, ranting some more. I should really learn my lesson the first time something gets me in trouble....then again, stubbornness has always been a stronger trait than common sense in me.
Oh really? You could have fooled me!

It's a shame that Genghis Kahn didn't take over europe 1000 years ago. Then there would be no cities to riot in, no pesky government to whine about, and no knowledge to teach in any rediculious education system.

How close we came to utopia.

Well, it wasn't actually Genghis Khan. It was his sons and other relatives that conquered as far as Poland.

They sent a nice threatening letter to the King of France, but the untimely death of the Khan made everyone go home for the funeral.

It's a shame that Genghis Kahn didn't take over europe 1000 years ago. Then there would be no cities to riot in, no pesky government to whine about, and no knowledge to teach in any rediculious education system.

How close we came to utopia.
Ignorance is bliss, eh?

I think not.

Well, it wasn't actually Genghis Khan. It was his sons and other relatives that conquered as far as Poland.

They sent a nice threatening letter to the King of France, but the untimely death of the Khan made everyone go home for the funeral.

True but Genghis Kahn is just such an excellent guy that I couldn't resist giving him a little more than his due.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

I think not.

Why on earth not?

If I didn't know that I was going to burn in hell for eternity for eating meat last friday then I wouldn't have to worry about it. However as things are, I do know, and I haven't slept in six days.

its called freedom of speech! I can say what I want!

Like go commies!

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:
KLM Empire, your entire post history consists of inflammatory comments with a severe overuse of the gun smilies.

Knock it off, NOW. You do not have complete freedom of speech on this forum.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator

I like living in Europe. If I'd been born in any other continent I probably would have died years ago. Most likely from starvation. Welfare keeps me alive.

$0.02 for you. . .

Amazing. This post started out as an almost reasonable debate, and it's degenerated into insult trading.
Let's try and wrap it up.

- Europe is not pathetic.
- Sure, it's got problems. But America? Pot, meet Kettle. It's black.
- 'Socialist' is not an insult.
- Neither is 'American'.
Ok?

Bracing myself for insults...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

Basically, Europe's educational system sucks, and their bs "egalitarian ideals" and socialist and welfare-state policies are half the problem, with the other half being the old-world class system, and are preventing anything from being solved.

They've spent so much money on the welfare state there's practically no money for anything else; when the public budget runs out for universities, and those schools fall short, they need an alternative source of money. Are they allowed the charge tuition? No. Because it violates "egalitarian ideals".

Massive, sprawling bureaucracies run by modern-day European apparatchiks micromanage every aspect of the school system. When this obviously and inevitably fails to work, (a lesson GWB could use before we fall into the same trap) countries evade the issue instead of instituting reform.

Half the time, they don't even know what's wrong, or rather do but won't allow themselves to actually confirm it, by deleting information from studies, banning participation in international tests, and not collecting statistics. France won't even let scores be attached to a race or ethnicity: another attack of egalitarian ideals. Of course, this also conveniently makes statistical identification of the hideous woes of immigrants in education almost impossible to demonstrate.

Why do people idolize Europe? What exactly do they have that's worth a damn? Socialism doesn't work. Welfare-state bs doesn't work, especially when a majority of your students leave schools straight into welfare. Their education system sucks. They're falling apart from the inside because they can't handle immigration. And they won't do anything about any of it because they're convinced their commie, old-world bullshit way of doing things works.

Why?

Excuse me?

Manifold faults Europe may have, however perhaps one should look a little closer to home.

Granted, continental Europe is not to everyone's tastes, notably the left wing inclinations of its body politic, however Sweden alone is testament to the capacity for successful socialism.

I feel compelled to note the following "commie, old world, bullshit way of doing things". What on earth is this intended to infer? That any political theory left of Republicanism constitutes communism? That welfare policies centred upon altruism, immigration policies centred upon tolerance (omitting French "intergration"), and public healthcare constitutes old world, in precedent to chronic and pervasive poverty, inaccessible health care and disregard for immigrants? I commend your logic.

Whilst I am willing to deplore the British education upon many counts, notably its classifying academic subjets in the same manner as vocational subjects, and the mediocrity it encourages, the ignorance of much of the USA is testament to its more positive features. I point to the recent issue of a board of governers banning the theory of evolution and supplanting it with creationism.

Frankly, the above is either a poorly rendered ironic joke, or supreme ignorance.

n.b. For those Americans who read this, do not construe this as outright criticism of the USA, it is not intended to be, I merely use examples selectively.

KLM Empire, your entire post history consists of inflammatory comments with a severe overuse of the gun smilies.

Knock it off, NOW. You do not have complete freedom of speech on this forum.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator

And to that I say die!:sniper:

you think Europe is bad?! Look at you Americans! DOWN with the USA! You think your all better than us! Gusse what! your NOT! No your worst!


To war if ya!:sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

why wont you americans just shut up?!:headbang:

Amazing. This post started out as an almost reasonable debate, and it's degenerated into insult trading.
Let's try and wrap it up.

- Europe is not pathetic.
- Sure, it's got problems. But America? Pot, meet Kettle. It's black.
- 'Socialist' is not an insult.
- Neither is 'American'.
Ok?

Bracing myself for insults...

Whyever would you do that?

Concise and true.:)

you think Europe is bad?! Look at you Americans! DOWN with the USA! You think your all better than us! Gusse what! your NOT! No your worst!

To war if ya!:sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

why wont you americans just shut up?!:headbang:

Oh, well argued.

I have to say that Europe has better beer than America.

In general...

Finnally people who understand! America will want to came crawlling back to Brtian becuse theyll they will see they are going to all kill them selfs if they dont! they need Britan....


WE rule!

Plus americans just use our cluture

Finnally people who understand! America will want to came crawlling back to Brtian becuse theyll they will see they are going to all kill them selfs if they dont! they need Britan....


WE rule!

Plus americans just use our cluture

You make me ashamed to be British. Grow up.

-snip-
:fluffle:

Feel honoured: I've only used it 7 times outside of the spam-board.

Finnally people who understand! America will want to came crawlling back to Brtian becuse theyll they will see they are going to all kill them selfs if they dont! they need Britan....


WE rule!

Plus americans just use our cluture

Tips for KLM empire:

1.Find hole

2.Crawl into hole

3. Turn off PC

4. Die

Are you an idiot? You talk about immigration: who is building a giant wall between America and Mexico? You talk about school systems; oh well, the United States of America have brilliant ones, if you can really afford what they cost. And, by the way, you say Europes does not let students participate in international tests, do you think really the United States' schools do so? Look, I have lived half of my life in the United States and the other half in Europe, and I can definitely tell you that if some already developed country has a big problem, it is the U.S.A.
So, my conclusion is: IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT JUST SHUT UP, because, as a Chinese refrain says, Silence is Golden when you do not know what to say.:upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

P.D. What is the bad point of a Socialist government?

Tips for KLM empire:

1.Find hole

2.Crawl into hole

3. Turn off PC

4. Die


Tips for you....

since you cant find a hole becuse your too dumb....just DIE

you->:D me->:mp5:

later....:confused: <-

what happend?! I died...Why am i talking to my self now that I am died...oh yea! I am a idoit!

Why live in Europe when you can live a better life in Africa? (or South America, or South Asia for that matter...) :)

Tips for you....

since you cant find a hole becuse your too dumb....just DIE

you->:D me->:mp5:

later....:confused: <-

what happend?! I died...Why am i talking to my self now that I am died...oh yea! I am a idoit!

Oh goody. I'm being labelled an idiot by somebody who spells as I highlight above.:rolleyes:

Why live in Europe when you can live a better life in Africa? (or South America, or South Asia for that matter...) :)

Becuse we all know that they all should be nuked!

I say die to them too....

:gundge: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper::gundge: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

Becuse we all know that they all should be nuked!

I say die to them too....

:gundge: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper::gundge: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

He's being ironic.

Oh goody. I'm being labelled an idiot by somebody who spells as I highlight above.:rolleyes:

Let him be. He's like 10 years old...

Oh goody. I'm being labelled an idiot by somebody who spells as I highlight above.:rolleyes:

you should feel very spedcial now!:p

oh and die!

:confused: :gundge:

Let him be. He's like 10 years old...

worng!

:upyours:

worng!

:upyours:

9?

9?


.................NO!

Oh goody. I'm being labelled an idiot by somebody who spells as I highlight above.:rolleyes:

Hey now, don't call KLM an idiot because he can't spell. It looks bad for the rest of us terrible spellers. Simply call him an idiot because he is a fucking moron. It is more concise and to the point. No highlighting involved, because every word he types is another support for your statement.

:confused:<- idoits coughcoughyoucoughcough->my army that kills them->:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Europe is great, don't patronise them.

Got to be 11. Maximum. Only kids are that obnoxious. Oh, and use smilies/onomatopoeia in lieu of a coherent post.

Europe is great, don't patronise them.

Way to counter an undersupported generalization with a completely unsupported equally sweeping and rediculious generalization.

I would be much obliged if you would be so kind as to support your statement in any way. If not stop wasting space.

Way to counter an undersupported generalization with a completely unsupported equally sweeping and rediculious generalization.

I would be much obliged if you would be so kind as to support your statement in any way. If not stop wasting space.

They said as much as the OP in about 1/50th of the space. Don't be critical.

Way to counter an undersupported generalization with a completely unsupported equally sweeping and rediculious generalization.

I would be much obliged if you would be so kind as to support your statement in any way. If not stop wasting space.

HDI is one of the ways of determining living standarts. HDI Ranking:

1. Norway (=)
2. Iceland (↑ 5)
3. Australia (=)
4. Luxembourg (↑ 11)
5. Canada (↓ 1)
6. Sweden (↓ 4)
7. Switzerland (↑ 4)
8. Ireland (↑ 2)
9. Belgium (↓ 3)
10. United States (↓ 2)
11. Japan (↓ 2)
12. Netherlands (↓ 7)
13. Finland (=)
14. Denmark (↑ 3)
15. United Kingdom (↓ 3)
16. France (=)
17. Austria (↓ 3)
18. Italy (↑ 3)
19. New Zealand (↓ 1)
20. Germany (↓ 1)
21. Spain (↓ 1)
22. Hong Kong (↑ 1)
23. Israel (↓ 1)
24. Greece (=)
25. Singapore (=)
26. Slovenia (↑ 1)
27. Portugal (↓ 1)
28. South Korea (=)
29. Cyprus (↑ 1)
30. Barbados (↓ 1)

They said as much as the OP in about 1/50th of the space. Don't be critical.

I suppose so. I am irritable at the moment. I need some doughnuts.

And to that I say die!:sniper:

And to that I say enjoy your 5 day forum ban.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator

And to that I say enjoy your 5 day forum ban.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator
Yay!!

And to that I say enjoy your 5 day forum ban.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator
:D yay for erastide!

in usa you still have some states that only teach creationism at school , you don't respect civil rights (starting with guantanamo, great example to the world), you have to call your insurance company before you can buy aspirine, hospitals are good (for those who can pay), your election system is just super retarded (making holes in cards...pffff... ), you are the coutry that polute more the planet (thats surely a signal of greatness ...."why have a 'smart' if you can have a 'jeep' that consumes 5 times more fuel" ).

Then...you are proud of your universitys?? why do you think that in nasa, microsoft, google, and other top companys , they are recrouting people from europe, asia and south america ?

you are so proud of your country that you don't even know the rest of the world, or talk other languages.

you are one of the most rich countries on the world, but you have people starving in your streets.

open your eyes! stop seeing only what your (dump) president want you to see...