NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems that some christian video game creators like the idea of forcing conversions on gays, buddhists, catholics, people who advocate the separation of church and state et c or death for the aforementioned groups.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

While this isn't as bad as say, flying planes into buildings full of people, it's encouraging children to force their beliefs on others in a militant fashion and really, these sorts of people are generally the ones up in arms about the violence in video games anyways. So what, violence is only alright in service of the lord?

Hypocrites.

Well the Crusades werent very nice either.

It seems that some christian video game creators like the idea of forcing conversions on gays, buddhists, catholics, people who advocate the separation of church and state et c or death for the aforementioned groups.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

While this isn't as bad as say, flying planes into buildings full of people, it's encouraging children to force their beliefs on others in a militant fashion and really, these sorts of people are generally the ones up in arms about the violence in video games anyways. So what, violence is only alright in service of the lord?

Hypocrites.

Shhh! Muslims are the evil ones, remember? The Christians are good, wholesome people who have never done anything wrong in their lives. It's just the bloody liberal, sensationalist media that is portraying them as hypocrites.

Well the Crusades werent very nice either.
That's true, but that's usually played off as being too far in the past and thus insignificant. This is a more current example.

Oh, and also, the inquisition and witchtrials weren't very nice at all either.

Shhh! Muslims are the evil ones, remember? The Christians are good, wholesome people who have never done anything wrong in their lives. It's just the bloody liberal, sensationalist media that is portraying them as hypocrites.
Yes, damn that liberal media for advertising the christian stance on violence and video games and for promoting a violent christian video game.

THE bloody hell...?

I can see none of you bothered to read the entire article. The author admits that the game is both anti-American and anti-Christian. Oh and the people who made it say they didn't intend to promote violence. At the most it is just a game, and a rather crappy looking game at that so stop getting all worked up about it.

Dunno, it might be a fun game, like Jagged Alliance.

Anyway, lumping all Christians together is just as bad as lumping all Muslims together. The majority of Christians generaly dont CARE what religion you are, unless its say, Aztec and you want to tear their heart out and eat their corpse, but I think MOST people would be worried by that just a bit.

Dunno, it might be a fun game, like Jagged Alliance.

Anyway, lumping all Christians together is just as bad as lumping all Muslims together. The majority of Christians generaly dont CARE what religion you are, unless its say, Aztec and you want to tear their heart out and eat their corpse, but I think MOST people would be worried by that just a bit.

I know I wouldn't. But know a few of the guys on NS General...they may be into "that kinda thing".

I can see none of you bothered to read the entire article. The author admits that the game is both anti-American and anti-Christian. Oh and the people who made it say they didn't intend to promote violence. At the most it is just a game, and a rather crappy looking game at that so stop getting all worked up about it.
Hey, if people can get worked up about this game http://www.resistance.com/ethniccleansing/faq.htm , they should be allowed to get worked up about the Christian version.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/700/700708p1.html

Although I've never really got into the whole Left Behind deal, Eternal Forces looks like an interesting game, and one that doesn't evangelize like you might expect.

Please. You're getting worked up over nothing.

Also, your link uses Jack Thomson quotes to condemn this game. That tells you all you really want to know about it.

Hey, if people can get worked up about this game http://www.resistance.com/ethniccleansing/faq.htm , they should be allowed to get worked up about the Christian version.

Ah...the internets. Home of Newgrounds, NS, 4chan and lots, and lots of Nazis.

It seems that some christian video game creators like the idea of forcing conversions on gays, buddhists, catholics, people who advocate the separation of church and state et c or death for the aforementioned groups.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

While this isn't as bad as say, flying planes into buildings full of people, it's encouraging children to force their beliefs on others in a militant fashion and really, these sorts of people are generally the ones up in arms about the violence in video games anyways. So what, violence is only alright in service of the lord?

Hypocrites.one, it's a video game.
two, it baised on the book Left Behind. the premise of that book is that the Rapture came and went. thus those left behind would be the Hypocrites, the fundies, the Extremists, and the false prophets. what else would you expect from them.

Dunno, it might be a fun game, like Jagged Alliance.

Anyway, lumping all Christians together is just as bad as lumping all Muslims together. The majority of Christians generaly dont CARE what religion you are, unless its say, Aztec and you want to tear their heart out and eat their corpse, but I think MOST people would be worried by that just a bit.
I wasn't lumping all christians or muslims together. I was just saying that it's not just extermist muslim groups who want to do away with the infidels, extremist christian groups do too, apparantly.

Also, Aztecs didn't eat the corpses of their sacrifices.

Hmm, makes me wish there was an anarchist-themed RTG.

Mr. Warren's global plan is a strategy to realize a dominionist vision of churches, states, and corporations forming partnerships to bring about a new world order to make way for Christ's return by establishing a literal, physical kingdom of God on earth. In order to build this earthly kingdom, Mr. Warren plans marketplace ministries - business ventures with a veneer of missionary compassion that slip into a country in order to transform it systematically through the governmental, corporate, and social sectors. And that is why Mr. Warren calls himself a "stealth evangelist" - because he wishes to cloak his dominionist agenda, which is the establishment of an earthly kingdom that reflects his skewed vision of Christianity.
Disgusting. The game only reflects the disturbing views of a twisted group of fundamentalists. Didn't Jesus preach "love thy neighbor" and that peace was the answer? Hypocritical, wrong, sickening.

Disgusting. The game only reflects the disturbing views of a twisted group of fundamentalists. Didn't Jesus preach "love thy neighbor" and that peace was the answer? Hypocritical, wrong, sickening.

It's just a game. GTA didn't turn kids into car-jacking mass murders and this won't turn them into fundamentalists.

It's just a game. GTA didn't turn kids into car-jacking mass murders and this won't turn them into fundamentalists.
GTA doesn't propone a set of beliefs, especially one as widespread as Christianity.

I can see none of you bothered to read the entire article.

I tried to but kept on getting this:

Proxy Error
The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.

The proxy server could not handle the request GET /story/2006/5/29/195855/959.

Reason: Document contains no data

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache/1.3.33 Server at www.talk2action.org Port 80

:(

It seems that some christian video game creators like the idea of forcing conversions on gays, buddhists, catholics, people who advocate the separation of church and state et c or death for the aforementioned groups.
You really have it out for Christians, don't you?

They made a damned video game, ffs. Who cares? It doesn't mean that they want the events depicted in the game to actually happen. Do the makers of Grand Theft Auto want rampant crime, rape and murder?

While this isn't as bad as say, flying planes into buildings full of people
I can't believe you can even think of comparing them.

I wasn't lumping all christians or muslims together. I was just saying that it's not just extermist muslim groups who want to do away with the infidels, extremist christian groups do too, apparantly.

Again, it doesn't indicate that people actually want all this to happen. And how can you compare American Christian fundamentalists to Muslim extremists? The latter do want to do away with infidels. They actually say so and they do it.

GTA doesn't propone a set of beliefs, especially one as widespread as Christianity.
Ruthless, amoral self-interest has taken up plenty of space in philosophy books. As has Christianity.

You really have it out for Christians, don't you?

They made a damned video game, ffs. Who cares? It doesn't mean that they want the events depicted in the game to actually happen. Do the makers of Grand Theft Auto want rampant crime, rape and murder?


Tho OBVIOUS difference, and one which I must assume you see, but choose to disregard to strengthen your 'argument'... is that carjackers are the [b]inspiration[b] for the Grand Theft Auto games... not the creative team.

Similarly, carthieves have no open, formal organisation with a 'message' to spread.

Finally, of course, carjackers are not creaming their habits about how morally superior they are...

Tho OBVIOUS difference, and one which I must assume you see, but choose to disregard to strengthen your 'argument'... is that carjackers are the [b]inspiration[b] for the Grand Theft Auto games... not the creative team.

Similarly, carthieves have no open, formal organisation with a 'message' to spread.

Finally, of course, carjackers are not creaming their habits about how morally superior they are...
but the act of stealing a car is still illegal right? :p

Can you name any other game that is specifically made and designed to be Anti anything?

I don't count war games as Anti-[enemy nation/force] because you do need two sides to fight a battle.

oh, and I found this gem for the Gameboy Advance. "The Bible Game" gonna be playing it soon... after I'm done with Bloodrayne II. (Sorry can't link to the game since work blocks all game sites.)

Meh, ive seen worse, like this game where you kill communists in america even though they havn't really done anything...(sorry forgot the name). At least they arn't training children in the real world to act very violently towards non christian bigots like some religions do....

*Dives behind sofa*

but the act of stealing a car is still illegal right? :p

Can you name any other game that is specifically made and designed to be Anti anything?

I don't count war games as Anti-[enemy nation/force] because you do need two sides to fight a battle.

oh, and I found this gem for the Gameboy Advance. "The Bible Game" gonna be playing it soon... after I'm done with Bloodrayne II. (Sorry can't link to the game since work blocks all game sites.)

Ahhh... I loved Bloodrayne II... especially the battle in that 'Pagoda arena'...

What was that game, came out like a year ago... that was about forming an anarchistic mob and waging war on society? That would count as fairly 'anti'...

Ahhh... I loved Bloodrayne II... especially the battle in that 'Pagoda arena'...

What was that game, came out like a year ago... that was about forming an anarchistic mob and waging war on society? That would count as fairly 'anti'...
Oh... I heard about that one... damn. now you've gone and given me something to keep me up at night. :headbang:

Oh... I heard about that one... damn. now you've gone and given me something to keep me up at night. :headbang:

Well, you've already got Bloodrayne to keep you occupied....

I was just thinking... Final Fantasy X2; Bloodrayne and Bloodrayne II; Buffy: Chaos Bleeds; Primal... almost all the games I like best, centre around female protagonists. How odd and unexpected...

Tho OBVIOUS difference, and one which I must assume you see, but choose to disregard to strengthen your 'argument'... is that carjackers are the [b]inspiration[b] for the Grand Theft Auto games... not the creative team.

No, I did not see that. Thanks.

But still, "now they're making video games, next thing you know they'll be ramming planes into secular buildings and shooting us down in the streets!"

Come on, people.

Oh man... hypocrites indeed.... Violence in the name of Christianity? Please...

This Warren charater seems like the anti-christ himself.
Global dominination?
Didn't Hitler try this 60+ years ago?

At the most it is just a game, and a rather crappy looking game at that so stop getting all worked up about it.
No.
I can see none of you bothered to read the entire article.
Oh, you can, can you? Got cameras planted in our houses? I read the entire article, stop patronizing us all.

It is worth getting "all worked up about" it. You're sounding like Officer Bar Brady from South Park.

We need a good Jewish computer game. Or, since Judaism discourages holy war except with G-d's specific approval (and usually He intervenes and kicks some serious ***), I'll take a Mossad game as a substitute. Seriously, Mossad makes ninjas look like bumbling fools.

No, I did not see that. Thanks.

But still, "now they're making video games, next thing you know they'll be ramming planes into secular buildings and shooting us down in the streets!"

Come on, people.

I don't think pornography, movie violence, or video-game violence CAUSE any sets of thoughts....

But, I do think they have the capacity to appear to endorse cerrtain behaviours... ESPECIALLY when you do something as potentially dangerous as add the idea that "killing is god's will" into that mix.

I probably wouldn't be AS worried, if I were certain this game wouldn't fall into the hands of developing minds.

We need a good Jewish computer game. Or, since Judaism discourages holy war except with G-d's specific approval (and usually He intervenes and kicks some serious ***), I'll take a Mossad game as a substitute. Seriously, Mossad makes ninjas look like bumbling fools.

Jew Ninja's!
That would be awesome.

You really have it out for Christians, don't you?
Only those who have it out for me.

Again, it doesn't indicate that people actually want all this to happen. And how can you compare American Christian fundamentalists to Muslim extremists? The latter do want to do away with infidels. They actually say so and they do it.
Well, as the man who attacked a porn store in the US shows, the muslims aren't the only ones using terrorist attacks to strike fear into those who disagree with them, christians are now doing it too.

That's an idea! Jewish Ninjas!

That's an idea! Jewish Ninjas!

"Tiny Plaid Ninjas" are better.

(Google it, maybe... the truth is out there...)

Jew Ninja's!
That would be awesome.
"Ninjews". That would be interesting. At the end of the eighth level, you have to circumcise a baby with a katana.

Ah...the internets. Home of Newgrounds, NS, 4chan and lots, and lots of Nazis.

Don't forget PORN lots and lots and lots and lots of that

I've read the whole article and I would just like to state:

That game with Christians and Liberals killing each other in cold blood maybe an attempt to prove that the cult wars in the USA is stupid and damaging.

There are even books that have racist characters in them to express how they beleive racism is wrong.

Why do you have to attack Christians? Christianity gives alot of people hope and strength.

Why do you have to attack Christians? Christianity gives alot of people hope and strength.
So does Islam.

So does Islam.
I know they attack Christians, whats your point?

I know they attack Christians, whats your point?
Uh.,.. I just said that Islam provides comfort and hope to people.

I also wasn't attacking christianity, I was attacking fundamentalist christianity.

Uh.,.. I just said that Islam provides comfort and hope to people.

I also wasn't attacking christianity, I was attacking fundamentalist christianity.
How is that? I wouldnt be verry comfortable or hopeful if I knew I was going to hell.

How is that? I wouldnt be verry comfortable or hopeful if I knew I was going to hell.
Really? You sound pretty comfortable right now.

Really? You sound pretty comfortable right now.
well yeah, because I found salvation in Jesus Christ, muslims havent.

Really? You sound pretty comfortable right now.
lol

well yeah, because I found salvation in Jesus Christ, muslims havent.
I spoke to Jesus the other day, he says he just told you he loved you so he could use you for teh sexorz.

How is that? I wouldnt be verry comfortable or hopeful if I knew I was going to hell.

'Heaven' is an Atheist trap, I can't believe you fell for it.

We invented that story millenia ago, to alleviate the misery of some of our number.

We didn't expect it to catch on.

The truth is, we ALL go to hell...

I spoke to Jesus the other day, he says he just told you he loved you so he could use you for teh sexorz.

That is just so wrong.

Dakini... you rock.

'Heaven' is an Atheist trap, I can't believe you fell for it.

We invented that story millenia ago, to alleviate the misery of some of our number.

We didn't expect it to catch on.

The truth is, we ALL go to hell...
maybe you will, but Im a Christian

That is just so wrong.

Dakini... you rock.
If that comment was wrong, I don't want to be right. :D

and thanks. :D

maybe you will, but Im a Christian
Yeah, Jesus says that being a christian doesn't guarantee salvation.

maybe you will, but Im a Christian

No, my friend... that was part of our conspiracy, too. There never was a 'Jesus'... we just threw that bit in for a laugh.

Boy, is YOUR face going to be red...

The truth of the matter is that the Koran preaches brutality as a treatment of non-believers. It is a sadistic religion that is full of people who have gone way off the deep end. Those who follow Islam and call it a "religion of peace" had better read their own scripture again. The creator of this thread compared the creation of video games to the planning of 911. Give me a break.

maybe you will, but Im a Christian
Hmm...Jesus revoked your member ship when he found out you stopped caring about other people

The truth of the matter is that the Koran preaches brutality as a treatment of non-believers. It is a sadistic religion that is full of people who have gone way off the deep end. Those who follow Islam and call it a "religion of peace" had better read their own scripture again. The creator of this thread compared the creation of video games to the planning of 911. Give me a break.
The truth of the matter is that the bible says the exact same shit. The difference is that most christians are literate and can read their own holy book and interpret it for themselves while many muslims (especially in areas like the middle east) are illiterate or can't read arabic so they can't read their own holy book, but must have others read it for them. These are often people with their own agendas, such as promoting hatred for non-muslims to deflect attention from the failures of many political leaders.

At any rate, I'm willing to wager that you've never read the Koran.

Actually, the truth is that there is no spoon. Err...Hell. Or whatever.

Listen to what I'm gonna say here: I'll probably play this game at one point or another. I'll probably get it from a torrent site. I'll play it and pay no attention to the dialogue and see if it's any fun. If not, than the point was proselytization, and it should be condemned as such, the game being guilty of what Jack Thompson and his ilk have been claiming for years. If it is... then I'm sure I have a pair of shorts around here somewhere that I'd have to eat.

Anyway, I'd be waiting for Hell Tycoon if I were you. That one seems far more entertaining. You get to torture nazis and lawyers for all eternity!

It's really not that much different than Warhammer 40k. They kill for their God-Emperor. This game just has an analog in reality.

Yeah, Jesus says that being a christian doesn't guarantee salvation.
one word, John 3:16

The truth of the matter is that the bible says the exact same shit. The difference is that most christians are literate and can read their own holy book and interpret it for themselves while many muslims (especially in areas like the middle east) are illiterate or can't read arabic so they can't read their own holy book, but must have others read it for them. These are often people with their own agendas, such as promoting hatred for non-muslims to deflect attention from the failures of many political leaders.

At any rate, I'm willing to wager that you've never read the Koran.
So... your saying that they’re going through pretty much a dark age... Interesting....

Hmm...Jesus revoked your member ship when he found out you stopped caring about other people
No, he revoke your membership because you hate freedom and lest you forgot, "freedom is the almighty's gift to every man, woman, and child in this world"-GW Bush

one word, John 3:16
That's three words... maybe Jesus should teach you to count

No, he revoke your membership because you hate freedom and lest you forgot, "freedom is the almighty's gift to every man, woman, and child in this world"-GW Bush
Oh, So by Jesus you meant George bush ok! it all makes sense now...(Maybe you should read the bible it says nothing like that)

That's three words... maybe Jesus should teach you to count
no, thats one word and 2 numbers.

The truth of the matter is that the bible says the exact same shit. The difference is that most christians are literate and can read their own holy book and interpret it for themselves while many muslims (especially in areas like the middle east) are illiterate or can't read arabic so they can't read their own holy book, but must have others read it for them. These are often people with their own agendas, such as promoting hatred for non-muslims to deflect attention from the failures of many political leaders.

At any rate, I'm willing to wager that you've never read the Koran.

You lost your wager. I did an in depth study of the Koran following 911 as part of my masters thesis. A friend of mine is a muslim and I have gone to his mosque with him. Please do not pretend to talk down to me when you do not even know me. Thanks.Please tell me where it is in the bible that believers in Christianity are told to kill non-believers. I can name a dozen examples of Jesus telling people not too. I will list them if you want me to. But really, give me your source that the bible tells Christians to kill non-believers. I am interested.

It seems that some christian video game creators like the idea of forcing conversions on gays, buddhists, catholics, people who advocate the separation of church and state et c or death for the aforementioned groups.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

While this isn't as bad as say, flying planes into buildings full of people, it's encouraging children to force their beliefs on others in a militant fashion and really, these sorts of people are generally the ones up in arms about the violence in video games anyways. So what, violence is only alright in service of the lord?

Hypocrites.


Are you unable to distinguish between real life and a video game?

"Ninjews". That would be interesting. At the end of the eighth level, you have to circumcise a baby with a katana.

And of course along the way you can throw Ninja Stars of David.

No, he revoke your membership because you hate freedom and lest you forgot, "freedom is the almighty's gift to every man, woman, and child in this world"-GW Bush

Can... you please tell me what relevance anything that man says has? He is not a smart man. Freedom is not a divine gift. Besides, no one is /truly/ free. At any rate, he wants people to be LESS free, not more. So...yeah.

one word, John 3:16
Umm... hello? I just spoke to Jesus last night, we had a nice conversation over some cookies and milk (btw, he said that my cookies were better than heaven) and he said that being a christian doesn't guarantee salvation and John was embellishing a touch on the story.

I just can't wait to here the part in the bible where jesus tells his followers to kill all who do not believe in him. Haha.

And, y'know, I'd also like to point out that the Christian religion is founded very much on the gospel of St. Peter. Who was a mysogynist at best, which doesn't say much to its credit... at least, not to my point of view.

You lost your wager. I did an in depth study of the Koran following 911 as part of my masters thesis. A friend of mine is a muslim and I have gone to his mosque with him. Please do not pretend to talk down to me when you do not even know me. Thanks.Please tell me where it is in the bible that believers in Christianity are told to kill non-believers. I can name a dozen examples of Jesus telling people not too. I will list them if you want me to. But really, give me your source that the bible tells Christians to kill non-believers. I am interested.
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live - commands people to kill pagans.

There were some other verses, I can't remember them, I don't like to sit about and disect the Bible all day.

What was your masters in?

I just can't wait to here the part in the bible where jesus tells his followers to kill all who do not believe in him. Haha.
When the hell did I say Jesus said that in the Bible, exactly? There's more to the Bible than just what Jesus said, in fact, the Jesus part of the Bible makes a very small portion of it... and the rest does involve a lot of killing of non-believers.

I don't have a problem with the game, as long as other religions can have anti-christian games and vise-versa...

I did noticed a interesting thing in the article...

("It's absurd," said the video critic. "You can be the Christians blowing away the infidels, and if that doesn't hit your hot button, you can be the Antichrist blowing away all the Christians.")

If you can be the Antichrist & blow up Christians in the game, that would be awesome!

Also I noticed this from http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-godgames10may10,0,1260114.story?page=2&coll=la-home-business

"To generate buzz for "Eternal Forces," Lyndon and Frichner plan to distribute 1 million sample discs to churches nationwide."

Hey, I would be willing to sit and listen to crap for a few hours to get a free demo or game!

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

So... your saying that they’re going through pretty much a dark age... Interesting....
Yes. If we were to increase the literacy rate in the muslim world (cutting down the poverty would help as well) we wouldn't have such problems with muslim terrorists.

Yes. If we were to increase the literacy rate in the muslim world (cutting down the poverty would help as well) we wouldn't have such problems with muslim terrorists.

Yeah, martydom and a palace in heaven full of earthly delights and an arbitrary sum of comely young virgins is WAY better than mind-numbing poverty. Or being a goat farmer or something.

Yes. If we were to increase the literacy rate in the muslim world (cutting down the poverty would help as well) we wouldn't have such problems with muslim terrorists.
Intresting...We Should Clone Martin LutherAnd make him Muslim

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live - commands people to kill pagans.

There were some other verses, I can't remember them, I don't like to sit about and disect the Bible all day.

What was your masters in?

History and Psych. And you provided no source for your answer. You barely even attempted one. Come on. Get real.

History and Psych. And you provided no source for your answer. You barely even attempted one. Come on. Get real.
History and Psych... you can do a double major for a masters now? I also fail to see how either of these relates to studying islam, especially since you stated you did so after 9-11, implying some sort of connection between the two events.

History and Psych... you can do a double major for a masters now? I also fail to see how either of these relates to studying islam, especially since you stated you did so after 9-11, implying some sort of connection between the two events.

Wow, the trip down defamation lane with left wing posters continues. My major was in history and educational psych. My masters is in history. My thesis was on the role of Islam in the history of the western world since 1948 ( the year of Israel's founding). It was well recieved. Please go defame sombody else who out debates you next time. Thanks.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

I hope you realize that Christ never said that and there is a big difference between old testament and new testament Christian dogma. The Book of James spells out the laws by which Christians are supposed to live.

I'm personally sick and tired of this crap. If you want your religion, keep it in your head, in your place of worship, or in your home. I don't care what you are or what you believe.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/diplomacy.php

This link maybe relevant...:rolleyes:

Al-queda and the left do share several goals:

get rid of Bush
get U.S. soldiers out of the middle east
they hate capitalism
they wish the Iraqi people never had the chance to vote.

I do not think that the left's motives or patriotism is lacking. It is their judgement.

Thou shall not suffer a witch to live - Exodus 22:18

Some other passages advocating death or exile for non-believers or people of other religions in the Bibile: Leviticus 17:7-9, Numbers 1:51, 3:10 (same thign restated), Deuteronomy 17:2-5 (this one's particularly telling), Deuteronomy 32:16-20, Psalms 106:35-38, 1 Corinthians 10:20-21, 2 Corinthians 6:14-17...

Wow, the trip down defamation lane with left wing posters continues. My major was in history and educational psych. My masters is in history. My thesis was on the role of Islam in the history of the western world since 1948 ( the year of Israel's founding). It was well recieved. Please go defame sombody else who out debates you next time. Thanks.
lol

You out-debated me? Ha! I was gathering the sources you so rudely asked for, I also asked what your masters was in, I didn't care what your undergrad degree was, the fact that you added excess information added some unnecessary confusion. I woudl also hardly say that I was defaming you, you were acting rude towards me first, I respnded in kind. Should I now piss and moan about how this sort of behaviour is typical of stuck-up right wing jerks or what?

Al-queda and the left do share several goals:

get rid of Bush
get U.S. soldiers out of the middle east
they hate capitalism
they wish the Iraqi people never had the chance to vote.

I do not think that the left's motives or patriotism is lacking. It is their judgement.
lol.

Ah, so you're a troll, now I get it.

i already have the game on order:D

lol.

Ah, so you're a troll, now I get it.

Instead of responding or making a denial you laugh. Cute. Too bad you can't deny it with logic. I wish you could.

Instead of responding or making a denial you laugh. Cute. Too bad you can't deny it with logic. I wish you could.
If you made a logical post instead of a flaming one then I would have rebutted it with logic. You flamed me, I don't have to take you seriously.

You also seem to assume that I'm american by attempting to insult my patriotism. This is an international forum, you know.

I'll pick apart your pathetic post if you want, it's rather easy...

Al-queda and the left do share several goals:
Oh yes, let's compare people we don't like who go about things in a peaceful manner with a major terrorist organization. This is guaranteed to be a fair and accurate comparison.

get rid of Bush
I can't imagine why democrats wouldn't want a republican president in office. Hmm... they must be terrorists.

get U.S. soldiers out of the middle east
Al Quaeda doesn't mind US soliders in the middle east, it helps them recruit new members by pointing out how the west is interfering in their affairs and causing all sorts of problems.

they hate capitalism
lol. That's hilarious that you think american democrats hate capitalism. The US left wing isn't left at all, it's more centrist than anything. You won't be prying the yuppies away from their consumer products anytime soon...

they wish the Iraqi people never had the chance to vote.
Hmm... well, I'm sure they're much better off in a civil war than in a relatively stable country (especially for that region). And don't act like the US actually went to war to help the Iraqi people. It was purely a revenge motive.

I do not think that the left's motives or patriotism is lacking. It is their judgement.
And the further insult to finish off the sadly misinformed and pathetic attempt at a flame.

Hmm looks like FUN.

If you made a logical post instead of a flaming one then I would have rebutted it with logic. You flamed me, I don't have to take you seriously.

You also seem to assume that I'm american by attempting to insult my patriotism. This is an international forum, you know.

I'll pick apart your pathetic post if you want, it's rather easy...

Does the left want us out of Iraq? yes
Does Al-queda want us out of Iraq? yes
Does the left hate Bush ? yes
Does Alqueda hate Bush? yes
If it was up to al-queda would the Iraqis have voted? no
If it was up to the left would the Iraqis have voted? no

DID I INSULT YOUR PATRIOTISM? LETS LOOK AT MY LAST SENTENCE...

I do not think that the left's motives or patriotism is lacking. It is their judgement.

getting back to the point of the thread

MUSLIMS HAVE DISGRACED THEMSELVES IN THE EYES OF ALL OF THE WORLD. why was there no comdemnation of 911 by the masses? Why is terrorism tolerated? How can a man like Bin Laden gain power within a religion?

Does the left want us out of Iraq? yes
Does Al-queda want us out of Iraq? yes
The answer to your second question is incorrect. The US presence in Iraq is an excellent recruitment tool for Al Quaeda.

Does the left hate Bush ? yes
Does Alqueda hate Bush? yes
Unfair comparison, the "left" hates Bush because he's mismanaged your country, hell, the right in your country should hate him too, do you have any idea what that man has done to your currency? I only got 1.08 on the exchange a while back, it used to be sitting around 1.50. Al Quaeda hates Bush because they hate all westerners and infidels...

If it was up to al-queda would the Iraqis have voted? no
If it was up to the left would the Iraqis have voted? no
If it was up to the left, I doubt Saddam would have been installed in the first place. Furthermore, Al Quaeda had nothing to do with Iraq before Saddam was removed. Saddam was a secular and comparitively reasonable dictator (yes, this is comparitively... he wasn't good, but he certainly wasn't the worst) and he kept the country in one piece and intact. The way things are going now, one free vote is all the Iraqis are going to get.

I do not think that the left's motives or patriotism is lacking. It is their judgement.
Fine, you insulted my judgement in a patronizing manner, whatever. I dont' care anymore, if you're going to pretend you have a masters, at least post more intelligently than the average 15 year old who has his head up his ass.

MUSLIMS HAVE DISGRACED THEMSELVES IN THE EYES OF ALL OF THE WORLD.
Really? What did every single muslim do to deserve such disgrace?

why was there no comdemnation of 911 by the masses?
It was there, it's your own fault if you didn't listen.

Why is terrorism tolerated?
It's not.

How can a man like Bin Laden gain power within a religion?
How can a man like Pat Robertson gain power within a religion?
If you want to know the story of how Bin Laden got to where he is, check out his work with the CIA.

getting back to the point of the thread

TIMOTHY McVEIGH HAS DISGRACED CHRISTIANS IN THE EYES OF ALL OF THE WORLD. why was there no comdemnation of 1995 by the masses? Why is terrorism tolerated? How can a man like Pat Robertson gain power within a religion?

Answer the fixed questions first. The same principle applies.

First of all the Muslim religion has disgraced itself. It is the number one organizer of terrorism on the planet.

Can you name one Muslim cleric who said that 911 was wrong within a year of 911? How about two clerics?

Also, you just compared Pat Robertson to Bin Laden. Yes both are religious fanatics. The difference is that Pat Robertson tries to save lives while Bin Laden tries to take them away. Yes the evil Christian fundamentalists want to stop abortion! Yes evil Muslim fundamentalists want to stop America from existing! Small difference right?

TIMOTHY McVEIGH HAS DISGRACED CHRISTIANS IN THE EYES OF ALL OF THE WORLD. why was there no comdemnation of 1995 by the masses? Why is terrorism tolerated? How can a man like Pat Robertson gain power within a religion?

comparing Timothy McViegh to the massive al-queda organization which has run entire nations. The United States executed Mcveigh. The vast majority of Americans supported this. Is that not condemnation by the masses of some kind? Terrorism was not tolerated at all.

First of all the Muslim religion has disgraced itself. It is the number one organizer of terrorism on the planet.
So you associate the christians who gun down abortion doctors and use weapons of mass destruction in terrorist attacks on porn shops with all other christians?

Can you name one Muslim cleric who said that 911 was wrong within a year of 911? How about two clerics?
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm there's a helpful link with some statements by various muslim groups linked to it and even a link to a quote from your best buddy Bush stating that Islam the religion is not the cause of terrorism.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/111/story_11121_1.html
^this link provides quotes by muslim groups made days after 9-11.

Again, just because you didn't listen doesn't mean they didn't condemn it.

Also, you just compared Pat Robertson to Bin Laden. Yes both are religious fanatics. The difference is that Pat Robertson tries to save lives while Bin Laden tries to take them away.
How on earth does Robertson try to save lives? Stopping abortions would result in more deaths (abortions are safer than giving birth) I already went into how the product of an abortion isn't a life in another thread, I'm not going into it now, that's too big a can of worms to open at this hour.
Robertson also advocated the death of various people, if I'm not mistaken and the demise of many things that makes the US a good country (i.e. equality of the sexes, tolerance et c).

comparing Timothy McViegh to the massive al-queda organization which has run entire nations.
Al-Quaeda hasn't run entire nations. Seriously, try inserting some facts into your debate.

ever heard of what we did after 911 ?

ever heard of what we did after 911 ?
Who is "we"?
And many things are done after 9-11.. which are you referring to? COuld your question be any vaguer?

Also, for someone with a master's, you'd think you could construct proper sentences, especially after studying a humanities-type subject area.

[QUOTE=Dakini]So you associate the christians who gun down abortion doctors and use weapons of mass destruction in terrorist attacks on porn shops with all other christians?

Yes. If they do not condemn such actions I will condemn them.

Just because Muslim " groups" here in America were outraged by 911 does not mean that Muslim clerics around the world gave half a hoot in hell.

Pat Robertson death Total: 0
Bin Laden death Total: 3,000 plus

Fascinating comparison. And you say I should try adding facts to the debate?

The bottom line is that many feel the need to badmouth Christianity in order to defend Islam. Why not simply defend Islam on its own merit? Is that even possible?

ever heard of what we did after 911 ?
Yep, went to Afghanistan to hunt down Bin-Laden. Haven't found him and in the meanwhile the country is run by war-lords apart from Kabuhl and it's surroundings. Good job :rolleyes:
And to the top it, you went to Iraq because WMDs which weren't found. Then it was of because Al-quaida, which had no link with Saddam and the country is in civil-war. Once again, well done :rolleyes:

Who is "we"?
And many things are done after 9-11.. which are you referring to? COuld your question be any vaguer?

Also, for someone with a master's, you'd think you could construct proper sentences, especially after studying a humanities-type subject area.

I choose not to pay 100% attention to grammar because this is an online forum in which ideas are pushed out with maximum speed. Once again you try to slander me. Give it up. And as to my previous response it speaks for itself.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brasiapacificra/155.php?nid=&id=&pnt=155&lb=bras

"The fundamentalist Taliban that governed Afghanistan from 1996 until it was overthrown with the help of US forces in October 2001 received equally poor ratings."

Yes. If they do not condemn such actions I will condemn them.
Again, Muslim groups did condemn the attacks as they have condemned all the attacks.

Just because Muslim " groups" here in America were outraged by 911 does not mean that Muslim clerics around the world gave half a hoot in hell.
You didn't bother clicking my links at all, did you?
http://www.zenit.org/english/war/visualizza.phtml?sid=9838

Fascinating comparison. And you say I should try adding facts to the debate?
Just because Robertson hasn't funded the deaths of anyone doesn't mean that his advocating the deaths of many is any better.

Yep, went to Afghanistan to hunt down Bin-Laden. Haven't found him and in the meanwhile the country is run by war-lords apart from Kabuhl and it's surroundings. Good job :rolleyes:
And to the top it, you went to Iraq because WMDs which weren't found. Then it was of because Al-quaida, which had no link with Saddam and the country is in civil-war. Once again, well done :rolleyes:


we have established the right to vote for millions in Iraq
we have established a new government there
saddam sits in a prison cell
the people of Afghanistan are free ( take a look at the link in my last post for some polling among them)

btw it was OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM not OPERATION FIND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

Interesting article on your religious view of the lack of linkage between Al_qaeda and Iraq

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040624-112921-3401r.htm

I choose not to pay 100% attention to grammar because this is an online forum in which ideas are pushed out with maximum speed. Once again you try to slander me. Give it up.
I'm not slandering you, I'm questioning your claim to have a high level of education. Given the arguments you're using, it's rather hard to believe as well.

And as to my previous response it speaks for itself.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brasiapacificra/155.php?nid=&id=&pnt=155&lb=bras

"The fundamentalist Taliban that governed Afghanistan from 1996 until it was overthrown with the help of US forces in October 2001 received equally poor ratings."
Oh yes, let's ignore the fact that the US wasn't the only country there. :rolleyes:
What does that have to do with the muslim reaction to 9-11? One country's government hid the man who masterminded it, that's hardly a reflection of the attitude of every muslim on the planet.

Why must you talk about the 'evils' of George Bush and Christianity to reply to the wrongs of Muslims? Can't Islam be defended on it's own merit? I wonder.

<snip>
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/111/story_11121_1.html
^this link provides quotes by muslim groups made days after 9-11.

Again, just because you didn't listen doesn't mean they didn't condemn it.
Thanks, you beat me to this. I also personally remember seeing television coverage in the US, within days of 9/11, of 1000s of Iranians in the streets of Teheran holding mourning vigils IN SYMPATHY WITH AMERICANS and in condemnation of the 9/11 attacks. Yep, we squandered that opportunity but good.

we have established the right to vote for millions in Iraq
we have established a new government there
saddam sits in a prison cell
the people of Afghanistan are free ( take a look at the link in my last post for some polling among them)

btw it was OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM not OPERATION FIND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

Interesting article on your religious view of the lack of linkage between Al_qaeda and Iraq

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040624-112921-3401r.htmok. I'm not putting up with this trolling anymore, I'm going to bed.

Thanks, you beat me to this. I also personally remember seeing television coverage in the US, within days of 9/11, of 1000s of Iranians in the streets of Teheran holding mourning vigils IN SYMPATHY WITH AMERICANS and in condemnation of the 9/11 attacks. Yep, we squandered that opportunity but good.
I know, but we all know that muslims are bllodthirsty, infidel killing towel heads and desert n*ggers, so what does it matter, right? The facts be damned, they must all be condemned and forcibly converted to our religion because that is the way it must be!

Then we'll round up all the dirty sluts who want abortions and force them to carry to term even if it's hazardous to their health. If they didn't want a baby, they'd have kept their legs shut, but we condemn the poor treatment of those Afghani women by the Taliban, right? We're so much better than they are because we're white and christian and righteous and AMERICAN!!!

Originally Posted by Barrygoldwater
we have established the right to vote for millions in Iraq
we have established a new government there
saddam sits in a prison cell
the people of Afghanistan are free ( take a look at the link in my last post for some polling among them)

btw it was OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM not OPERATION FIND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

Interesting article on your religious view of the lack of linkage between Al_qaeda and Iraq

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...2921-3401r.htm

that is trolling??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Nobody here has tried to defend Islam on its own merit yet. There has only been complaining about Bush, Christians, and me....trying to respond to it all. Why can't you just try to defend Islam?

Yes. If they do not condemn such actions I will condemn them.
So then, you do condemn all Christians for the crimes of a few?

Just because Muslim " groups" here in America were outraged by 911 does not mean that Muslim clerics around the world gave half a hoot in hell.
Read the link Dakini provided:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/111/story_11121_1.html

Or are you one of those people who ignore evidence and then try to claim that your opponents never offered any because you didn't see it?

Pat Robertson death Total: 0
Bin Laden death Total: 3,000 plus

Fascinating comparison. And you say I should try adding facts to the debate?
You're just impatient. Give Pat time. And yes, you should try adding facts to your argument. It would help if you read the news. For instance, al Qaeda has never run a country. Fighting is escalating in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The Iraqi government is not yet built, and the Afghan government cannot run by itself. And the Taliban, so far from being eradicated, is in fact making its biggest bid yet to retake power in several Afghan provinces.

So then, you do condemn all Christians for the crimes of a few?


Read the link Dakini provided:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/111/story_11121_1.html

Or are you one of those people who ignore evidence and then try to claim that your opponents never offered any because you didn't see it?


You're just impatient. Give Pat time. And yes, you should try adding facts to your argument. It would help if you read the news. For instance, al Qaeda has never run a country. Fighting is escalating in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The Iraqi government is not yet built, and the Afghan government cannot run by itself. And the Taliban, so far from being eradicated, is in fact making its biggest bid yet to retake power in several Afghan provinces.

You ignore my links. I ignore yours. Very sad. Still, you are making several assumptions here. The worst is that you must tear down Christianity to make Islam look good. Why can't Islam be redeemed on its own merit?

we have established the right to vote for millions in Iraq
ANd severely destabilized the country, likely resulting in a civil war and it has already resulted in thousands dead.

we have established a new government there
I thought you helped a free vote?

saddam sits in a prison cell
And Bin Laden is at large.

the people of Afghanistan are free ( take a look at the link in my last post for some polling among them)
Warlords still occupy much of the country, and it isn't just (or even primarily) the US looking after the country now. In fact, right now Canada is runnign the show. Stop taking credit where it's not due.

btw it was OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM not OPERATION FIND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
That's a laugh and a half, you seem to forget things quickly don't you?

Interesting article on your religious view of the lack of linkage between Al_qaeda and Iraq
Here's the trolling bit. Calling my assertion a religious view and then providing a link that doesn't work to back your insult up. Good job.

You ignore my links. I ignore yours. Very sad. Still, you are making several assumptions here. The worst is that you must tear down Christianity to make Islam look good. Why can't Islam be redeemed on its own merit?
Nobody's tearing down christianity to make islam look good. We're pointing out that islam isn't the great evil you make it out to be, again, it's not our fault you're defensive.

Also, provide some links that work and maybe we'll click them. By the way, it's so mature to play that sort of game. I really believe you hold a master's degree now.

Indeed. Now I know what trolling is. Repeated accusations of my being in idiot while going on long winded rants that have little to do with the topic at hand. NOBODY HERE HAS ATTEMPTED TO DEFEND ISLAM WITHOUT MENTIONING CHRISTIANITY, BUSH, ME, IRAQ, ETC.

Nobody here has tried to defend Islam on its own merit yet. There has only been complaining about Bush, Christians, and me....trying to respond to it all. Why can't you just try to defend Islam?
That's probably because we are, variously: (A) not Islamic scholars; (B) not enormous fans of religion in general; (C) not interested in giving you another thing to jump up and down and yell LEFTIST LIES! LEFTIST LIES! about, without actually reading our arguments; and (D) not interested in trying to disprove your claims which are so obviously based on your own personal bigotry. What do you expect us to say? That it isn't reasonable under any circumstances to condemn billions of people (in this case, Muslims) for the crimes of a few 1000 world wide? The sheer fact that anyone would need to say that to you shows that you are not inclined to be reasonable. You have invested some energy in this blanket condemnation of all Muslims. I don't believe you will give it up. Why should we waste our time telling you water is wet only to hear you insist that it's dry?

Indeed. Now I know what trolling is. Repeated accusations of my being in idiot while going on long winded rants that have little to do with the topic at hand. NOBODY HERE HAS ATTEMPTED TO DEFEND ISLAM WITHOUT MENTIONING CHRISTIANITY, BUSH, ME, IRAQ, ETC.
You're one to talk about going off topic and jumping around with wild subject changes. You also don't appear to have been reading anyone's posts.

And we have defended islam without mentioning christianity a number of times, it's not our fault you ignore us. Just like it's not the fault of the majority of muslims that you ignore their condemnations of terrorist attacks. Grow up.

That's probably because we are, variously: (A) Islamic scholars; (B) not enormous fans of religion in general; (C) not interested in giving you another thing to jump up and down and yell LEFTIST LIES! LEFTIST LIES! about, without actually reading our arguments; and (D) not interested in trying to disprove your claims which are so obviously based on your own personal bigotry. What do you expect us to say? That it isn't reasonable under any circumstances to condemn billions of people (in this case, Muslims) for the crimes of a few 1000 world wide? The sheer fact that anyone would need to say that to you shows that you are not inclined to be reasonable. You have invested some energy in this blanket condemnation of all Muslims. I don't believe you will give it up. Why should we waste our time telling you water is wet only to hear you insist that it's dry?

a) really? who?
B) I gathered this
c) I have called nobody a liar.
d) I expect you to try to answer the following questions:

1)If the Koran tells Muslims to kill non-believers than are not the true followers of Islam those who do this?
2) Why are the masses who follow Islam in a peaceful way doing so?

You ignore my links. I ignore yours. Very sad. Still, you are making several assumptions here. The worst is that you must tear down Christianity to make Islam look good. Why can't Islam be redeemed on its own merit?
1) What makes you think I ignored your links? The fact that I didn't suddenly start agreeing with you? They don't make me agree with you, and I don't have anything further to say about them.

2) I asked you a question to clarify your answer to Dakini's question. You haven't answered it. You were asked if you lump all Christians in with those who shoot doctors and plant bombs in businesses they think are immoral. You said you condemn anyone who supports that kind of crime. So I'm asking you: Does this mean that you condemn ALL Christians, the way you are condemning ALL Muslims? Or are you holding Christians to a different standard than you do Muslims? It's a question, Mr. Goldwater, not an assumption. If you decline to answer it, I guess I will have to make an assumption based on your lack of answer.

3) Finally, please point out any place where I tore down Christianity for any reason, Islam-related or not. I'll wait for quotes.

That's probably because we are, variously: (A) Islamic scholars; (B) not enormous fans of religion in general; (C) not interested in giving you another thing to jump up and down and yell LEFTIST LIES! LEFTIST LIES! about, without actually reading our arguments; and (D) not interested in trying to disprove your claims which are so obviously based on your own personal bigotry. What do you expect us to say? That it isn't reasonable under any circumstances to condemn billions of people (in this case, Muslims) for the crimes of a few 1000 world wide? The sheer fact that anyone would need to say that to you shows that you are not inclined to be reasonable. You have invested some energy in this blanket condemnation of all Muslims. I don't believe you will give it up. Why should we waste our time telling you water is wet only to hear you insist that it's dry?
Who but radicals say that all Islamic followers are evil? I have heard attacks of the damages of Christianity due to the Crusades/Inquisitions (only hundreds of years ago!) more than the same about the recent actions of 'Islamic' groups.

1) What makes you think I ignored your links? The fact that I didn't suddenly start agreeing with you? They don't make me agree with you, and I don't have anything further to say about them.

2) I asked you a question to clarify your answer to Dakini's question. You haven't answered it. You were asked if you lump all Christians in with those who shoot doctors and plant bombs in businesses they think are immoral. You said you condemn anyone who supports that kind of crime. So I'm asking you: Does this mean that you condemn ALL Christians, the way you are condemning ALL Muslims? Or are you holding Christians to a different standard than you do Muslims? It's a question, Mr. Goldwater, not an assumption. If you decline to answer it, I guess I will have to make an assumption based on your lack of answer.

3) Finally, please point out any place where I tore down Christianity for any reason, Islam-related or not. I'll wait for quotes.

I screwed up on the one link. My apologies. I condemn anyone who allows innocents to be killed in the name of religion. I hold both religions to the same standard.

The attack on Christians by bringing up Mcveigh, Robertson, abortion clinic bombers etc. is really not relevant. If you did not intend to badmouth Christianity is a body I take your word for it and thank you!. The thing is, this has nothing to do with defending Islam on its own merit. My discussion on Christianity is closed.

There is no reason to defend Islam. It has nothing to defend against. All there is are some extremists who are misinterpreting the Quaran. Islam brought about the Renaissance, expanded women’s rights, and just asks to be understood. There is nothing to attack Islam with. Well, nothing of meaning that isn’t just uninformed racist jibberish.

1)If the Koran tells Muslims to kill non-believers than are the true followers of Islam those who do this?
2)In that case why are the masses who follow Islam in a peaceful way doing so?

kindly tell me which race I am attacking too. That should be interesting. being that I have not mentioned race...at all...

I condemn anyone who allows innocents to be killed in the name of religion. I hold both religions to the same standard.
So that means you condemn all christians too then? They have disgraced their religion, horrible, horrible people.

The attack on Christians by bringing up Mcveigh, Robertson, abortion clinic bombers etc. is really not relevant. If you did not intend to badmouth Christianity is a body I take your word for it and thank you!. The thing is, this has nothing to do with defending Islam on its own merit. My discussion on Christianity is closed.
The thing is that the attacks by christian terrorists are as relevant to christianity as the attacks by muslim terrorists are relevant to islam. You've clearly got a double standard going, muslims must all apologize for attacks by a very small minority, yet christians do not have to do so.

1)If the Koran tells Muslims to kill non-believers than are the true followers of Islam those who do this?
2)In that case why are the masses who follow Islam in a peaceful way doing so?

kindly tell me which race I am attacking too. That should be interesting. being that I have not mentioned race...at all...
1. The Koran also condemns the killing of innocents. This is not consistent with terrorist attacks.
2. See #1.

There is no reason to defend Islam. It has nothing to defend against. All there is are some extremists who are misinterpreting the Quaran. Islam brought about the Renaissance, expanded women’s rights, and just asks to be understood. There is nothing to attack Islam with. Well, nothing of meaning that isn’t just uninformed racist jibberish. If you are too trapped in your own little bubble to understand what I am saying, then read a history book.

AND what the hell is with this 'we established a new government there so we are the good guys' bullshit? Democracy isn't for everyone just as Christianity isn't for everyone. And Fraternity isn't the kind of government for everyone either, whether it works for us or not. Its a different culture, and you can't just go in there, attempt to make a carbon copy of your own government, and replace their current culture. (Which BTW they are rejecting as we can see as the death toll rises.) Its all goddamned politics, because Saddam was our guy in the Middle East when it was us vs. those damn commies. Where do you think he got all those missiles to blow us up with? Hmmm. This is were history, something many people aren’t acquainted with these days, comes into play, and we realize that we are the ones behind Saddam in the first place.

If in Operation Iraqi Freedom, Freedom means Replacement, then yes, it is a good title.

This is were history, something many people aren’t acquainted with these days, comes into play, and we realize that we are the ones behind Saddam in the first place.
You're arguing with someone who claims to have a masters degree in history... If you want to have a laugh at that, go ahead, I know I am.

I'm going with trollpuppet. Or raving lunatic. One of those

You're arguing with someone who claims to have a masters degree in history... If you want to have a laugh at that, go ahead, I know I am.

Who claims to have a masters in history? You or the other guy?

So that means you condemn all christians too then? They have disgraced their religion, horrible, horrible people.


The thing is that the attacks by christian terrorists are as relevant to christianity as the attacks by muslim terrorists are relevant to islam. You've clearly got a double standard going, muslims must all apologize for attacks by a very small minority, yet christians do not have to do so.


still on the Christians...

Who claims to have a masters in history? You or the other guy?
Barrygoldwater, he clearly doesn't.

still on the Christians...
Still on your hypocracy.

1. The Koran also condemns the killing of innocents. This is not consistent with terrorist attacks.
2. See #1.

Koran 17:16-17
When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants

Koran 8:37
In order that Allah may seperate the impure from the pure, Put All the impure ones (Non-Muslim), one on top of the another in a Heap and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost

Koran 2:8-10
In their (Non-Muslims) hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease and grievous is the penalty they will incur, because they are false.

Koran 58:5
Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

One shudders to imagine the kind of effects such a book has on the impressionable mind of a young Muslim child. Is it any wonder that so many of them grow up into hardened criminals who possess a distorted, sadistic and perverted psyche. Repeated exposure to and encouragement of the thoughts expressed in these verses would surely place violence in the very core of a child's being

according to the Koran no non-Muslim is an innocent!

Ok, Barry doesn't have a masters, or an un-bias education in world history. Obviously.

And Barry, the following doesn't have anything to do with Christians, the US, or anything else off topic:

The Quaran asks its followers to take up the sword against infidels. This means and only means that they are to defend their religion when it is being attacked, such as defending Dar Al Islam. This does not mean for Muslims to attack people because they are a different religion. As a matter of fact, the Islamic States of the 'Dark Ages', so to speak, were the most religiously tolerant groups of the time compared to other countries. They are still, now, more tolerant than many countries in our contemporary world.

Attacking me does not make Islam look any better folks.

Koran 17:16-17
When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants

Koran 8:37
In order that Allah may seperate the impure from the pure, Put All the impure ones (Non-Muslim), one on top of the another in a Heap and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost

Koran 2:8-10
In their (Non-Muslims) hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease and grievous is the penalty they will incur, because they are false.

Koran 58:5
Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

One shudders to imagine the kind of effects such a book has on the impressionable mind of a young Muslim child. Is it any wonder that so many of them grow up into hardened criminals who possess a distorted, sadistic and perverted psyche. Repeated exposure to and encouragement of the thoughts expressed in these verses would surely place violence in the very core of a child's being

according to the Koran no non-Muslim is an innocent!

I already know you didn't translate this. I wonder who put in the '(non-Muslim)' parts. You have no idea what it means.

As a matter of fact, the Islamic States of the 'Dark Ages', so to speak, were the most religiously tolerant groups of the time compared to other countries. They are still, now, more tolerant than many countries in our contemporary world.


I agree! I agree! Everyone get that? My question why is that true in light of the Santanic verses that I have just posted?

a) really? who?
B) I gathered this
c) I have called nobody a liar.
d) I expect you to try to answer the following questions:

1)If the Koran tells Muslims to kill non-believers than are not the true followers of Islam those who do this?
2) Why are the masses who follow Islam in a peaceful way doing so?
A) I meant NOT Islamic scholars. I fixed it but you had already responded. And by saying we're not Islamic scholars, I mean we are not prepared to quote chapter and verse of Islamic texts at the drop of a hat. We'd have to do research, and I guess we figure you're not worth the effort.

B) Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with you is anti-religion? I mentioned that some of us are not big religion fans as the reason why we are not going out of our way to tell you how wonderful Islam is. We don't disagree with you because we think Islam is so great. We disagree with you because your argument is false. Not all Muslims support terrorism. Period. It has nothing to do with whatever our opinions of Islam might be.

C) Oh, I beg your pardon. The way you keep going on about "the left" and denouncing every opinion that disagrees with you as contradicting what you believe to be the truth, I thought that "leftist" and "liar" might be synonyms in your head.

D) I will answer your questions by posing other questions: First, the Bible says to stone adulterers and not suffer witches to live. Are the only true Christians the ones who kill adulterers and pagans? (If so, there must be very few Christians nowadays.)

Second, regarding your suggestion that the only true Muslims are the ones who kill non-believers, are you suggesting that only the terrorists are Muslims, and that all those who are not terrorists are not Muslims? And if this is your argument, does this mean that you believe that all those billions of people who call themselves Muslims but do not support terrorism are in fact innocent of wrongdoing and do not deserve to be blamed for the crimes of terrorists?

That seems like a long way to go just to avoid acknowledging that peaceful, non-violent people can be Muslims too and that it is possible for Islam to contain violent verses without actually teaching violence -- just like Christianity -- and that maybe, just maybe, your condemnation of Islam is based on your own ignorance and/or bigotry.

I agree! I agree! Everyone get that? My question why is that true in light of the Santanic verses that I have just posted?

Because you have distorted them! They are not fair and un-bias quotes!

Who but radicals say that all Islamic followers are evil? I have heard attacks of the damages of Christianity due to the Crusades/Inquisitions (only hundreds of years ago!) more than the same about the recent actions of 'Islamic' groups.
Barrygoldwater seems to be saying that. Make of that what you will. I know what I make of it.

Koran 17:16-17
When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants

Koran 8:37
In order that Allah may seperate the impure from the pure, Put All the impure ones (Non-Muslim), one on top of the another in a Heap and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost

Koran 2:8-10
In their (Non-Muslims) hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease and grievous is the penalty they will incur, because they are false.

Koran 58:5
Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

One shudders to imagine the kind of effects such a book has on the impressionable mind of a young Muslim child. Is it any wonder that so many of them grow up into hardened criminals who possess a distorted, sadistic and perverted psyche. Repeated exposure to and encouragement of the thoughts expressed in these verses would surely place violence in the very core of a child's being

according to the Koran no non-Muslim is an innocent!
Yes, altering quotes makes them better...

That whoever kills a single soul for other than a soul killed or for corruption in the earth, it is as though he had killed all of humanity together, and whoever saves the life of a single soul, it is as though he had saved the life of all of humanity together - Quran Surah al-Ma'ida ayah 32

Barrygoldwater seems to be saying that. Make of that what you will. I know what I make of it.

That’s different because it was the Churches idea to 'recapture' Jerusalem. The Christian Church was behind it, while the Islamic wasn't. *Edit* behind the 9/11 attacks.

Shhh! Muslims are the evil ones, remember? The Christians are good, wholesome people who have never done anything wrong in their lives. It's just the bloody liberal, sensationalist media that is portraying them as hypocrites.


aint this calling the kettle black?

i have muslim friends i would give my life for,and i am a christian,so i am sure they would do the same for me....dividing this issue along religous lines is as foolish as religion is!

A) I meant NOT Islamic scholars. I fixed it but you had already responded. And by saying we're not Islamic scholars, I mean we are not prepared to quote chapter and verse of Islamic texts at the drop of a hat. We'd have to do research, and I guess we figure you're not worth the effort.

B) Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with you is anti-religion? I mentioned that some of us are not big religion fans as the reason why we are not going out of our way to tell you how wonderful Islam is. We don't disagree with you because we think Islam is so great. We disagree with you because your argument is false. Not all Muslims support terrorism. Period. It has nothing to do with whatever our opinions of Islam might be.

C) Oh, I beg your pardon. The way you keep going on about "the left" and denouncing every opinion that disagrees with you as contradicting what you believe to be the truth, I thought that "leftist" and "liar" might be synonyms in your head.

D) I will answer your questions by posing other questions: First, the Bible says to stone adulterers and not suffer witches to live. Are the only true Christians the ones who kill adulterers and pagans? (If so, there must be very few Christians nowadays.)

Second, regarding your suggestion that the only true Muslims are the ones who kill non-believers, are you suggesting that only the terrorists are Muslims, and that all those who are not terrorists are not Muslims? And if this is your argument, does this mean that you believe that all those billions of people who call themselves Muslims but do not support terrorism are in fact innocent of wrongdoing and do not deserve to be blamed for the crimes of terrorists?

That seems like a long way to go just to avoid acknowledging that peaceful, non-violent people can be Muslims too and that it is possible for Islam to contain violent verses without actually teaching violence -- just like Christianity -- and that maybe, just maybe, your condemnation of Islam is based on your own ignorance and/or bigotry.

A) got your point
B) no
c)nope, bad assumption, to lie you must know and be aware that you are telling a falsehood.
d) an answer to a question to the Koran that only talks about things in the Bible. Not relevant. I never made the claim that Christianity was a religion of peace. You made the claim that Islam is. many peaceful people think that they are Muslims but they are ignoring some of the words of Mohammad. ( thank God they are too)

aint this calling the kettle black?

i have muslim friends i would give my life for,and i am a christian,so i am sure they would do the same for me....dividing this issue along religous lines is as foolish as religion is!
I suspect that was sarcasm.

But the real words of Mohammad doesn't say that kind of stuff. Mohammad was a merchant for Christ sake. (Forgive the Irony...)

Yes, altering quotes makes them better...

That whoever kills a single soul for other than a soul killed or for corruption in the earth, it is as though he had killed all of humanity together, and whoever saves the life of a single soul, it is as though he had saved the life of all of humanity together - Quran Surah al-Ma'ida ayah 32


well I know you did not translate that yourself...blah blah blah, no I will not do that to you! This quote is real. I have come across it before. Notice it says that killing a person who corrupts the earth is ok. Wonder who that could be......

I screwed up on the one link. My apologies. I condemn anyone who allows innocents to be killed in the name of religion. I hold both religions to the same standard.

The attack on Christians by bringing up Mcveigh, Robertson, abortion clinic bombers etc. is really not relevant. If you did not intend to badmouth Christianity is a body I take your word for it and thank you!. The thing is, this has nothing to do with defending Islam on its own merit. My discussion on Christianity is closed.
So, to clarify, you DO NOT blame all Muslims for the crimes of terrorism? Do you concede the point that not all Muslims support terrorism or bin Ladin? Do you concede the point that bin Ladin is no more a representative of Islam than McVeigh, Robertson, abortion clinic bombers, etc, are representatives of Christianity? And if you will concede that point, will you concede the point that Islam does not need to be defended in order for terrorism to be condemned because condemnation of terrorism is not condemnation of Islam?

well I know you did not translate that yourself...blah blah blah, no I will not do that to you! This quote is real. I have come across it before. Notice it says that killing a person who corrupts the earth is ok. Wonder who that could be......

What I was saying is that putting the (non-Muslim) in there is defenatly not fair.

maybe a bit of tolerance is in order..and quit the he said/she said crap...or my god is better then your god/or...maybe we are just creatures of our enviroments(like me listening to rap from my kids room...which i hate)but i aint gonna chop his head off,or call him a sinner.

well I know you did not translate that yourself...blah blah blah, no I will not do that to you! This quote is real. I have come across it before. Notice it says that killing a person who corrupts the earth is ok. Wonder who that could be......
Psh, like you translated your verses. And really, if you're going to read more into the verse than there is then that's your problem, but keep in mind that you're reading it in a manner that you desire, not the manner it's intended.

maybe a bit of tolerance is in order..and quit the he said/she said crap...or my god is better then your god/or...maybe we are just creatures of our enviroments(like me listening to rap from my kids room...which i hate)but i aint gonna chop his head off,or call him a sinner.

No one said 'my god is better than your god'....I don't know what post your reading...

Its funny how a high school student can debate a man with a Masters in History; and use more historical refrences...

Its funny how a high school student can debate a man with a Masters in History; and use more historical refrences...
It's funny how an undergrad physics student, who took the bare minimum in terms of history, can debate a man with a Masters in History; and pwn his ass. :D

A) got your point
Good.

B) no
And? Did you get that point, too?

c)nope, bad assumption, to lie you must know and be aware that you are telling a falsehood.
Oh, I see, we're just poor deluded fools who don't know enough to agree with you. Whatever. :rolleyes:

d) an answer to a question to the Koran that only talks about things in the Bible. Not relevant. I never made the claim that Christianity was a religion of peace. You made the claim that Islam is. many peaceful people think that they are Muslims but they are ignoring some of the words of Mohammad. ( thank God they are too)
I never made any claims about Islam at all. In fact, if you go back to my point (B), I clearly stated that our -- and my -- disagreement with you is based on the false assumption of your argument about what the majority of a very large group of people think and do, NOT on any opinion of the quality of Islam as a religion. You suggested that the only way to be a true Muslim is to be violent, and you implied that non-violent Muslims are not true Muslims (further implying, I suppose, that non-violent Muslims are either liars or not Muslims). I pointed out the fundamental fallacy of your assumption that the existence of a few violent verses (out of 1000s, I believe) proves that a religion is violent by pointing out that the Christian bible also contains violent verses but no one is claiming this makes Christianity a violent religion. So if violent verses do not make Christianity inherently violent, on what basis do you claim that violent verses make Islam inherently violent? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, after all.

No one said 'my god is better than your god'....I don't know what post your reading...


my bad then,i misunderstood the thread to imply that we hate eachother over differences..my bad.

Its defiantly implied, but has Barrygoldwater ever affiliated himself with or defended Christianity? Just asking.

my bad then,i misunderstood the thread to imply that we hate eachother over differences..my bad.

I don't know if any Muslims have posted, or at least posted lately on this. And if they have, they have not come forward with it. Not that they need to.

No one said 'my god is better than your god'....I don't know what post your reading...??????????

???

i guess i need sleep,but i thought,oh never mind.

my bad then,i misunderstood the thread to imply that we hate eachother over differences..my bad.
Nope it was about pointing out to fundies that generalizing is bad.

??????????

???

i guess i need sleep,but i thought,oh never mind.

I need sleep too, and it looks like Barrygoldwater beat me to it.

It seems that some christian video game creators like the idea of forcing conversions on gays, buddhists, catholics, people who advocate the separation of church and state et c or death for the aforementioned groups.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

While this isn't as bad as say, flying planes into buildings full of people, it's encouraging children to force their beliefs on others in a militant fashion and really, these sorts of people are generally the ones up in arms about the violence in video games anyways. So what, violence is only alright in service of the lord?

Hypocrites.

Well, ah guess it's only muzzie-fundamentalists that actually GO after infidels.

And I guess you are just another pro-OBL 'relativist' trying to show another POV.

Are you by any chance a MP of Bethnall Green?

This looks like the most ridiculous video game ever. And if that was George Galloway I'd love to telegraph him sometime.

Well, ah guess it's only muzzie-fundamentalists that actually GO after infidels.

You mean like Fred Phelps? Or perhaps you meant McVeigh. Or maybe one of the numerous Christians throughout history who have committed acts of murder and torture in the name of their so-called Lord.

Don't be a dummy. Extremism in any form is bad, whether it's Islam, Christianity, PETA, Flying Pasta or anything else.

Why must you talk about the 'evils' of George Bush and Christianity to reply to the wrongs of Muslims? Can't Islam be defended on it's own merit? I wonder.

I thought you said you did your thesis on Islam?
I have been following this debate, and all of your remarks are made out of ignorance to the religion, not an understanding.

Shame on you.

One of my best friends is Islamic, she's extremely devoted to the faith. She wears a Hijab, prays five times a day, lives a holy life...She's not a threat. She actually condemns Usama and the Al Quada. "They are not following the true way," she has said on numerous occasions, "They have taken a small passage in the Qu'ran and misinterpreted it. Jihad means 'personal struggle' something a person has within themselves." We have had numerous conversations in the matter, as she is always looking to help educate ignorant people (myself when I first met her). She has had her fair share of prejudice because she "looks Islamic." Days after 9-11 (she lives in NYC), people refused her service because "her people caused this." It wasn't her fault! She isn't even Saudi! They were just blaming her because she was Muslim and therefore at "fault".
My friends from Saudi Arabia? They laugh at Usama, saying he's clueless and made it more difficult for them to travel. They both have to go through "random checks" at the airport everytime they travel. How random can they possibly be, if one has to go through it everytime? Yay USA!:rolleyes:

My point is this, I have listed off several examples as to why Islam can be defended on it's own merit. There are plenty of people that live and attend school in the United States who are not extremists. It's the extremists that you see, because they are so vocal, but it's like that with any religion/group of people (Robertson/Falwell for Christians, Limbaugh for Republicans, Kennedy for Democrats). You can't look at Usama and the Al Qaeda as measuring sticks for the rest of Islam. They aren't! They are the few crazies that got a hold of a microphone and a camera and now are causing trouble. If you take the time to get to know a Muslim, I mean really get to know them, then you will see that they are no much trouble than any other person. My friends from Saudi Arabia don't consider me their American infidel friend, they just consider me a friend. I can tell that they are happy I took the time to get to know them for who they really are, and not lump them in a group of people, "Well, they all wear Hijabs, so they must be linked to terrorists." Please.

It seems that some christian video game creators like the idea of forcing conversions on gays, buddhists, catholics, people who advocate the separation of church and state et c or death for the aforementioned groups.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

While this isn't as bad as say, flying planes into buildings full of people, it's encouraging children to force their beliefs on others in a militant fashion and really, these sorts of people are generally the ones up in arms about the violence in video games anyways. So what, violence is only alright in service of the lord?

Hypocrites.

I never seen such a biased article in my entire life. I can tell you for a fact that Left Behind: Eternal Forces is NOT what this article is proclaiming it to be. These people need to conduct their research better.

I can see none of you bothered to read the entire article. The author admits that the game is both anti-American and anti-Christian. Oh and the people who made it say they didn't intend to promote violence. At the most it is just a game, and a rather crappy looking game at that so stop getting all worked up about it.

Do not believe the article at all. The Game is nothing what the article is protraying it to be.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/700/700708p1.html



Please. You're getting worked up over nothing.

Also, your link uses Jack Thomson quotes to condemn this game. That tells you all you really want to know about it.

Thank you DrunkenDove. This game is nothing like that article is portraying it to be. Its just some loudmouth who doesn't like the fact that it is based on a popular series of books and is in no way out to kill those who want seperation of church and state.

Do not believe the article at all. The Game is nothing what the article is protraying it to be.

So it isn't an attempt at fundamentalist propaganda? How odd. I've examined it on IGN, and it seems to be exactly that. Not exactly subtle, either.

Disgusting. The game only reflects the disturbing views of a twisted group of fundamentalists. Didn't Jesus preach "love thy neighbor" and that peace was the answer? Hypocritical, wrong, sickening.

Oh conduct research on the game and don't judge it till ya do.

No.

Oh, you can, can you? Got cameras planted in our houses? I read the entire article, stop patronizing us all.

It is worth getting "all worked up about" it. You're sounding like Officer Bar Brady from South Park.

WHy is it worth getting worked up about when the article is 100% biased?

I've read the whole article and I would just like to state:

That game with Christians and Liberals killing each other in cold blood maybe an attempt to prove that the cult wars in the USA is stupid and damaging.

There are even books that have racist characters in them to express how they beleive racism is wrong.

And if you actually bothered to do a little research...you would know that you do your best NOT to kill civilians in LB: Eternal Forces. Also, you have to do your best not cause to much colatteral damage.

Are you unable to distinguish between real life and a video game?

Not to mention he didn't bother to research the game.

I don't have a problem with the game, as long as other religions can have anti-christian games and vise-versa...

This game is not anti-anything.

I did noticed a interesting thing in the article...

("It's absurd," said the video critic. "You can be the Christians blowing away the infidels, and if that doesn't hit your hot button, you can be the Antichrist blowing away all the Christians.")

Only in online play can ya be on the side of the Global Community. SOmething else the article didn't mention. Also....you are encouraged NOT TO KIL CIVILIANS. If ya do then the devil will be your friend. If not then the angels are your friend. Something else that the article never mentions.

i already have the game on order:D

That makes 2 of us.

Only in online play can ya be on the side of the Global Community. SOmething else the article didn't mention. Also....you are encouraged NOT TO KIL CIVILIANS. If ya do then the devil will be your friend. If not then the angels are your friend. Something else that the article never mentions.

Actually the article did mention that 'If you happen to blow away a neutral party - and collateral damage is inevitable in the End of Days - then you will lose "Spirit Points". But you can power back up with merely a brief timeout for prayer, or by converting one of New York's terror-stricken citizens.'

That makes 2 of us.

What scares me is I think you're not joking.

WHy is it worth getting worked up about when the article is 100% biased?

Then why don't you link us to the game's home site? That way we can all see both sides of the story.

So it isn't an attempt at fundamentalist propaganda? How odd. I've examined it on IGN, and it seems to be exactly that. Not exactly subtle, either.

No it isn't.

I never seen such a biased article in my entire life. I can tell you for a fact that Left Behind: Eternal Forces is NOT what this article is proclaiming it to be. These people need to conduct their research better.
Leave it to you to come in 12 pages in, not even read the entire thread and just throw the insults around, miss the entrire point of the thread and then get my gender wrong. Thanks.

Actually the article did mention that 'If you happen to blow away a neutral party - and collateral damage is inevitable in the End of Days - then you will lose "Spirit Points". But you can power back up with merely a brief timeout for prayer, or by converting one of New York's terror-stricken citizens.'

Sorry..must have skipped over that. Anyway...the article is still biased.

Nope it was about pointing out to fundies that generalizing is bad.
^^^^^^This is the point of the thread.

What scares me is I think you're not joking.

That's because I'm not. Unlike people on here, I actualy conduct research on games and movies. If it was anti-anything, I would not buy it.

Unlike people on here, I actualy conduct research on games and movies. What kind of methodology do you use?

Then why don't you link us to the game's home site? That way we can all see both sides of the story.

http://www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/press_room.php

Leave it to you to come in 12 pages in, not even read the entire thread and just throw the insults around, miss the entrire point of the thread and then get my gender wrong. Thanks.

12 pages? More like 4.5 before everyone got sidetracked from the computer game. So tell me what am I supposed to find within these 12 pages?

^^^^^^This is the point of the thread.

Then maybe you should find a different article instead of one to a computer game that isn't anything AT ALL like the article is saying.

*mutters about biased press*

What kind of methodology do you use?

It all the various game sites that I know.

Only those who have it out for me.
Which in your eyes is pretty much all of them.

Well, as the man who attacked a porn store in the US shows, the muslims aren't the only ones using terrorist attacks to strike fear into those who disagree with them, christians are now doing it too.
Attacking a porn store is a terrible thing, but is nowhere near the scale of blowing up a bus, or razing two great towers.

Christians are now doing it? This isn't new and you're uninformed if you think you have to scrape the barrel for zealous vandalism to "prove" that extreme Christians are as bad as extreme Muslims. If you want to prove that, there's no point in even looking at North America. The only Christians who are doing anything comparable to what the extreme Muslims are doing are the groups in Africa.

So does Islam.
Thus, don't attack Islam.

But, I do think they have the capacity to appear to endorse cerrtain behaviours... ESPECIALLY when you do something as potentially dangerous as add the idea that "killing is god's will" into that mix.
Rubbish. A lot people think that GTA endorses rape and murder. It doesn't. No more than this endorses killing in god's name.


It is worth getting "all worked up about" it. You're sounding like Officer Bar Brady from South Park.
Chill out people. Christian Dominionists exist, but they're never going to have any power to fulfil their fantasies.

No need to worry about video games. Worry if they start committing acts of violence.

well yeah, because I found salvation in Jesus Christ, muslims havent.
Leave that sort of thing out of this please. Your religion is subjective and irrational. You may believe it if you want, you can't expect us to take it seriously or support policies based on it.

No, he revoke your membership because you hate freedom and lest you forgot, "freedom is the almighty's gift to every man, woman, and child in this world"-GW Bush
Let's just say that Jesus hates you both. And Bush is not a divine messenger.

Al-queda and the left do share several goals:

get rid of Bush
get U.S. soldiers out of the middle east
they hate capitalism
they wish the Iraqi people never had the chance to vote.

I do not think that the left's motives or patriotism is lacking. It is their judgement.
Al-Qaeda doesn't hate capitalism, and they like Bush as well (he's a great posterboy for recruitment, apparently).

Al-Qaeda shares many goals with the right as well, such as a love of violence, and enforcing religious morality.

Taken from the Left behind games (http://www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/the_games.htm) website:

The Games > Features

LBG is developing products to include the same types of compelling elements that have made interactive games popular for years, and yet offer a less graphic experience to the sexual themes and gratuitous violence currently found in many titles. We plan to make all games visually and kinetically appealing. We anticipate our titles will be classified as both action, strategy and adventure genres, and will likely receive either an "E" rating (appropriate for ages 6 and up) or a "T" rating (appropriate for ages 13 and up).

Game description

Wage a war of apocalyptic proportions in LEFT BEHIND: Eternal Forces - a real-time strategy game based upon the best-selling LEFT BEHIND book series created by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. Join the ultimate fight of Good against Evil, commanding Tribulation Forces or the Global Community Peacekeepers, and uncover the truth about the worldwide disappearances!

· Lead the Tribulation Force from the book series , including Rayford, Chloe, Buck and Bruce against Nicolae Carpathia – the AntiChrist.

· Conduct physical & spiritual warfare : using the power of prayer to strengthen your troops in combat and wield modern military weaponry throughout the game world.

· Recover ancient scriptures and witness spectacular Angelic and Demonic activity as a direct consequence of your choices.

· Command your forces through intense battles across a breathtaking, authentic depiction of New York City .

· Control more than 30 units types - from Prayer Warrior and Hellraiser to Spies, Special Forces and Battle Tanks!

· Enjoy a robust single player experience across dozens of New York City maps in Story Mode – fighting in China Town , SoHo , Uptown and more!

· Play multiplayer games as Tribulation Force or the AntiChrist's Global Community Peacekeepers with up to eight players via LAN or over the internet!

Pretty sparse on detail. I've picked two facts out though.

Firstly, they're expecting it to get a child or teen rating, that shows it won't contain graphic violence and probably not much offensive material.

Secondly, I am quite worried about the 'Antichrist's Global Community Peacekeepers'. It sounds to me like a veiled dig at the UN and international cooperation. Apart from that I can't see any real problems with the game but until we know how the Peacekeepers are going to be portrayed I don't feel knowledgeable enough to make a judgement. It could still turn out badly if the Peacekeepers are portrayed as evil demon-worshipping atheists but then again they could be portrayed as well meaning but naive dupes. Could someone who's read the books shed some light on this?

RLI,

They are Naive dopes. Maybe some are what you said at first but most were just doped by the Anti-Christ.

Which in your eyes is pretty much all of them.
Actually, not true at all.

Attacking a porn store is a terrible thing, but is nowhere near the scale of blowing up a bus, or razing two great towers.
What about blowing up a building in Oklahoma?
And just because the scale is small doesn't mean that the intent isn't there.

Christians are now doing it? This isn't new and you're uninformed if you think you have to scrape the barrel for zealous vandalism to "prove" that extreme Christians are as bad as extreme Muslims. If you want to prove that, there's no point in even looking at North America. The only Christians who are doing anything comparable to what the extreme Muslims are doing are the groups in Africa.
Ok, and they're still there. Are we lumping all christians in with them? Or is that something that you only reserve for all muslims?

Thus, don't attack Islam.
I wasn't.

Al-Qaeda doesn't hate capitalism, and they like Bush as well (he's a great posterboy for recruitment, apparently).

Al-Qaeda shares many goals with the right as well, such as a love of violence, and enforcing religious morality.
At least you got something right.

It seems that some christian video game creators like the idea of forcing conversions on gays, buddhists, catholics, people who advocate the separation of church and state et c or death for the aforementioned groups.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

While this isn't as bad as say, flying planes into buildings full of people, it's encouraging children to force their beliefs on others in a militant fashion and really, these sorts of people are generally the ones up in arms about the violence in video games anyways. So what, violence is only alright in service of the lord?

Hypocrites.
Just one more reason to buy one of these:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2662/jesusprotect3gx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Secondly, I am quite worried about the 'Antichrist's Global Community Peacekeepers'. It sounds to me like a veiled dig at the UN and international cooperation. Apart from that I can't see any real problems with the game but until we know how the Peacekeepers are going to be portrayed I don't feel knowledgeable enough to make a judgement. It could still turn out badly if the Peacekeepers are portrayed as evil demon-worshipping atheists but then again they could be portrayed as well meaning but naive dupes. Could someone who's read the books shed some light on this?

Having checked the first press release in Cornelui's link it seems that secular units are classed as neutral rather than enemies: "The challenge of converting secular/neutral units to fight on the side of light or darkness is sure to present gamers with a deeper level of game play than in other real time strategy games".

Sounds like a Black and White ripoff to me but not particularly offensive or dangerous.

RLI,

They are Naive dopes. Maybe some are what you said at first but most were just doped by the Anti-Christ.

Thanks. In that case I don't any real problem with the game.

Just one more reason to buy one of these:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2662/jesusprotect3gx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:p

That's because I'm not. Unlike people on here, I actualy conduct research on games and movies. If it was anti-anything, I would not buy it.I found it funny that on their own website, two thirds of the game description consisted of listing all the bestseller lists the books had been on...

I found it funny that on their own website, two thirds of the game description consisted of listing all the bestseller lists the books had been on...

because it is based on the left behind books.

Answer the fixed questions first. The same principle applies.
I remember a rather large condemnation of the 1995 bombing to be fair.

ever heard of what we did after 911 ?
Bush went to a Mosque and told Muslims that their religion is a religion of peace.

The bottom line is that many feel the need to badmouth Christianity in order to defend Islam. Why not simply defend Islam on its own merit? Is that even possible?
I agree. It's simply liberal reactionism to conservative hypocrisy. Few if any liberals are interested in defend Islam in itself. We're just sick and tired of conservatives holding Christianity to a more permissive standard than Islam.

"Mr. Warren's global plan is a strategy to realize a dominionist vision of churches, states, and corporations forming partnerships to bring about a new world order to make way for Christ's return by establishing a literal, physical kingdom of God on earth. In order to build this earthly kingdom, Mr. Warren plans marketplace ministries - business ventures with a veneer of missionary compassion that slip into a country in order to transform it systematically through the governmental, corporate, and social sectors. And that is why Mr. Warren calls himself a "stealth evangelist" - because he wishes to cloak his dominionist agenda, which is the establishment of an earthly kingdom that reflects his skewed vision of Christianity."

Sounds something like what Czardas would do.

because it is based on the left behind books.Yes indeed. I just found it rather interesting that there was about twice as much about the lists the books have been on as there was plot summary from quite a few books.

I agree. It's simply liberal reactionism to conservative hypocrisy. Few if any liberals are interested in defend Islam in itself. We're just sick and tired of conservatives holding Christianity to a more permissive standard than Islam.
I wasn't badmouthing Christianity, I was just pointing out that there are nutjobs who claim to be christian too.

What about blowing up a building in Oklahoma?
And just because the scale is small doesn't mean that the intent isn't there.
What Christian group was McVeigh a part of?

The scale matters. Attacks with minimal, or no fatalities are not comparable to attacks with huge fatalities.

Ok, and they're still there. Are we lumping all christians in with them? Or is that something that you only reserve for all muslims?

Of course not. I don't think that religious moderates should have to apologise for religious extremists.

People also forget that in most Islamist attacks, more Muslims tend to be killed than anyone else.

I'm just rather tired of the fetishisation of Middle Eastern Islam that I percieve to be popular among some on the left. It's frankly unbelievable that some leftists justify persecution of women with "hey leave them alone it's their culture" - just because it's Muslims that are doing it.

I choose not to pay 100% attention to grammar because this is an online forum in which ideas are pushed out with maximum speed. Once again you try to slander me. Give it up. And as to my previous response it speaks for itself.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brasiapacificra/155.php?nid=&id=&pnt=155&lb=bras

"The fundamentalist Taliban that governed Afghanistan from 1996 until it was overthrown with the help of US forces in October 2001 received equally poor ratings."

Taliban =/= Al Qaeda...

I'm thinking.... 'troll, much'?

Of course not. I don't think that religious moderates should have to apologise for religious extremists.

I'm just rather tired of the fetishisation of Middle Eastern Islam that I percieve to be popular among some on the left. It's frankly unbelievable that some leftists justify persecution of women with "hey leave them alone it's their culture" - just because it's Muslims that are doing it.
Psh. I'm so not defending the treatment of women in muslim countries. Although that's a regional, cultural thing, not an islam thing. I have a friend who's muslim from the czech republic, she doesn't wear a hijab, nor does her mom. The Bible has the exact same sorts of commandments for women as the Koran does (the Bible says women should be vieled and dress modestly, no jewlery et c) but it's a cultural thing here that no one follows them, fortunately.
The Koran does not advocate the mistreatment of women, people misinterpreting the Koran and imposing their cultural standards that existed before the introduction of islam do.

Nobody here has tried to defend Islam on its own merit yet. There has only been complaining about Bush, Christians, and me....trying to respond to it all. Why can't you just try to defend Islam?

Because this thread is about 'Christians' producing a video game about slaughtering innocents, while bitching and moaning about the intolerances and evils of Islam...

I never seen such a biased article in my entire life. I can tell you for a fact that Left Behind: Eternal Forces is NOT what this article is proclaiming it to be. These people need to conduct their research better.

Have you played it?

Because this thread is about 'Christians' producing a video game about slaughtering innocents, while bitching and moaning about the intolerances and evils of Islam...
Two different groups of christians. Christians, like most other groups, hardly ever speak with one voice.

Have you played it?

Kinda hard when it is coming out October 4, 2006.

Rubbish. A lot people think that GTA endorses rape and murder. It doesn't. No more than this endorses killing in god's name.


GTA is also not affiliated to fundamentalist Christian literature, and doesn't claim to be 'god's will'...

Just one more reason to buy one of these:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2662/jesusprotect3gx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Ooooh, I need one of those... I'll be sooo popular around here.... :D

GTA is also not affiliated to fundamentalist Christian literature, and doesn't claim to be 'god's will'...

I can honestly tell you that the Left Behind Series of books is for everyone.

Two different groups of christians. Christians, like most other groups, hardly ever speak with one voice.

Oh, I'm aware of that... I'm replying to the (probable troll) barry-something... who seems to be arguing Islam is inherently evil, and that the sun shines out of the collective Christian arse.

The fact that things are seldom black and white (well, except nuns, zebras and penguins), is kind of the point of the original post, I think... and that's what I was gesturing towards.

I can honestly tell you that the Left Behind Series of books is for everyone.It's rather hard to tell from the sparse information on the games site...

Kinda hard when it is coming out October 4, 2006.

So - you actually have NO 'first-hand' experience of the game, and YOUR opinion is ALSO based on what others have written?

So - you actually have NO 'first-hand' experience of the game, and YOUR opinion is ALSO based on what others have written?

And based on actually reading the books. I do not see anything here about turning the country into a Christian Theocracy.

I can honestly tell you that the Left Behind Series of books is for everyone.

The hell they are!

That crap might sell copies to some people, but I've actually read a couple.

Not only are they badly written (and, I mean worse than Stephen King, or Thomas Harris), but they espouse an agenda that would leave a lot of people with a very bad taste in their mouth.

And based on actually reading the books. I do not see anything here about turning the country into a Christian Theocracy.

Books =/= game.

The hell they are!

That crap might sell copies to some people, but I've actually read a couple.

Not only are they badly written (and, I mean worse than Stephen King, or Thomas Harris), but they espouse an agenda that would leave a lot of people with a very bad taste in their mouth.

And yet it is always on the top bestseller list and have sold millions of copies. They also always gets good reviews.

I'm sorry you didn't like them but unless you have read the WHOLE series, I do not think you can comment on the series.

And yet it is always on the top bestseller list and have sold millions of copies. They also always gets good reviews.

I'm sorry you didn't like them but unless you have read the WHOLE series, I do not think you can comment on the series.

I wasn't commenting on the whole series... but I've read the first couple, and they were pretty crappy. I don't see how the 'series, entire' can be consistently any good, if the first installments of that series were unallayed arse.

Britney Spears is very popular, you know? Sells a lot of records.

I wonder if she will be remembered as one of the 'great contributors' to the world of music?

And yet it is always on the top bestseller list and have sold millions of copies. They also always gets good reviews.It only takes one or two good reviews...

I'm sorry you didn't like them but unless you have read the WHOLE series, I do not think you can comment on the series.Ah, bullshit. If you don't like book A because of the writing style, the hidden agenda, and the overall atmosphere, and that all gets repeated in the others, there's reason to suspect the rest of the series won't be that much different.

I wasn't commenting on the whole series... but I've read the first couple, and they were pretty crappy. I don't see how the 'series, entire' can be consistently any good, if the first installments of that series were unallayed arse.

Apparently tens of millions disagree with you and it is one of the best series that I have ever read. If the series was "crap" I wouldn't have all twelve books plus the two prequils AND getting the third book on 06/06/06.

Britney Spears is very popular, you know? Sells a lot of records.

And ya point? I'm not into her music but if you are, knock yourself out.

I wonder if she will be remembered as one of the 'great contributors' to the world of music?

Who knows. I know the Left Behind series is among the best book series so who knows.

You mean like Fred Phelps? Or perhaps you meant McVeigh. Or maybe one of the numerous Christians throughout history who have committed acts of murder and torture in the name of their so-called Lord.

Don't be a dummy. Extremism in any form is bad, whether it's Islam, Christianity, PETA, Flying Pasta or anything else.

Ah, wow.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world is kinda busy getting the muslim-fundies out of the equation.
Dealing with the clear and present danger and all that.

But then again, you're kinda on the OBL-side.

I haven't forgotten your accusations, liar.
I don't even support capital punishment, let alone concentration-camps.

Non Alignment = just another fancy phrase for not being 100% pro-West.

It only takes one or two good reviews...

Ah, bullshit. If you don't like book A because of the writing style, the hidden agenda, and the overall atmosphere, and that all gets repeated in the others, there's reason to suspect the rest of the series won't be that much different.

Christians and non-christians alike like the series *shrugs*

Christians and non-christians alike like the series *shrugs*I just read some excerpts. I have to agree with GnI, they're not that well written and reek of Christian agenda.

I just read some excerpts. I have to agree with GnI, they're not that well written and reek of Christian agenda.

I disagree with the "not that well written part" but to the last part...people don't seem to mind and that goes to christans and non-christians alike.

But then you have your own opinions and I have mind.

It only takes one or two good reviews...

Ah, bullshit. If you don't like book A because of the writing style, the hidden agenda, and the overall atmosphere, and that all gets repeated in the others, there's reason to suspect the rest of the series won't be that much different.

That's exactly it.

I read a lot... I mean, really a lot. Obviously, not EVERY book I read is going to be attractively written, with a good style, a unique 'voice', and well executed plotlines.

What you do notice, though... is that authors are generally 'consistent'. If you like Asimov's 'voice' in the 'Robot' books, you will probably find much to enjoy in the 'Foundation' books.

So - if you start a series of books, and you find the first few books severely lacking, it is not unreasonable to assume those SAME flaws will still exist in the latter parts of the series.

(Who wrote the Thomas Covenant books? Another example of an author that starts out bad, and STAYS bad...)

Because this thread is about 'Christians' producing a video game about slaughtering innocents, while bitching and moaning about the intolerances and evils of Islam...


Yowza, yowza.
You're bitching and moaning about a game.

I disagree with the "not that well written part" but to the last part...people don't seem to mind and that goes to christans and non-christians alike.Care to back that up? I'm not into the series and I'm not about to go looking for reviews that back that statement up.

But then you have your own opinions and I have mind.Of course ;)

(Who wrote the Thomas Covenant books? Another example of an author that starts out bad, and STAYS bad...)Stephen R. Donaldsen. Here I'd beg to differ :p

Apparently tens of millions disagree with you and it is one of the best series that I have ever read. If the series was "crap" I wouldn't have all twelve books plus the two prequils AND getting the third book on 06/06/06.

And ya point? I'm not into her music but if you are, knock yourself out.

Who knows. I know the Left Behind series is among the best book series so who knows.

Have you ever read any Sheri Tepper? Julian May? Sharon Shinn? Asimov? Herbert? Dick? Maybe you think 'Left Behind' is 'good' because you haven't read anything that actually is...

More likely, of course, you like the 'Left Behind' books for their 'message'... and it blinds you to factors like being well-written.

The Britney Spears connection, was that being 'popular' in a medium, is often loosely connected, if at all, with being a good example OF that medium.

Christians and non-christians alike like the series *shrugs*

Most of the Christians I have talked to haven't been impressed... and I've not met a non-Christian who was much more than tolerant of them.

The only place I've found consistent interest in the 'Left Behind' books, has been among the more extreme Fundamentalists, since I got to Georgia.

Yowza, yowza.
You're bitching and moaning about a game.

I am?

Where?

Stephen R. Donaldsen. Here I'd beg to differ :p

Well, different strokes for different folks.

I liked the idea that the 'hero' was a subversion of the standard 'hero' archetype... he was a collection of 'tragic flaws' with an achille's heel of 'redeeming virtue', rather than the other way around.

I didn't like the pacing... I found the prose almost mechanical, or clinical, and I found the author's 'voice' neither compelling of momentum, nor compelling of sympathy.

I can understand how someone could 'like the stories'... but I didn't consider them 'well-written'.

But, hey.. it's just my opinion.

Have you ever read any Sheri Tepper? Julian May? Sharon Shinn? Asimov? Herbert? Dick? Maybe you think 'Left Behind' is 'good' because you haven't read anything that actually is...

I have read Ashimov and he is a wonderful Sci-Fi writer. There is a difference though between writing Science Fiction and writing something based on the book of Revelations.

More likely, of course, you like the 'Left Behind' books for their 'message'... and it blinds you to factors like being well-written.

It isn't the messege that I like. I like the characters, including the Anti-Christ.

The Britney Spears connection, was that being 'popular' in a medium, is often loosely connected, if at all, with being a good example OF that medium.

Yep. I still don't like her style of music but that's just me.

Most of the Christians I have talked to haven't been impressed... and I've not met a non-Christian who was much more than tolerant of them.

The only place I've found consistent interest in the 'Left Behind' books, has been among the more extreme Fundamentalists, since I got to Georgia.

I have met several people up here in the North that also like the series and are not "fundamentalist".

My advice to you is to stop tossing the word fundamentist like it was candy.

Well, different strokes for different folks.

I liked the idea that the 'hero' was a subversion of the standard 'hero' archetype... he was a collection of 'tragic flaws' with an achille's heel of 'redeeming virtue', rather than the other way around.

I didn't like the pacing... I found the prose almost mechanical, or clinical, and I found the author's 'voice' neither compelling of momentum, nor compelling of sympathy.

I can understand how someone could 'like the stories'... but I didn't consider them 'well-written'.

But, hey.. it's just my opinion.They did drag out a bit, but I personally loved the atmosphere and the way he incorporates a modern human from our world in a fantasy environment.

I have read Ashimov and he is a wonderful Sci-Fi writer. There is a difference though between writing Science Fiction and writing something based on the book of Revelations.


Why? Why should they be judged differently? You are pleading 'special exception' for fiction based on scripture?

Of course - as far as I'm concerned (and the majority of the population of the world...), Revelation IS Science Fiction... without the 'science'...


It isn't the messege that I like. I like the characters, including the Anti-Christ.


I disagree... it flies directly in the face of you judging this book by 'a different standard' because it is based on a Christian scripture.


Yep. I still don't like her style of music but that's just me.

That's the point. Who likes what... has no impact on how good it is.

Why? Why should they be judged differently? You are pleading 'special exception' for fiction based on scripture?

Because one is science fiction and the other is religious fiction. You have to judge them differently because they are not the same genre.

Of course - as far as I'm concerned (and the majority of the population of the world...), Revelation IS Science Fiction... without the 'science'...

That is your choice.

I disagree... it flies directly in the face of you judging this book by 'a different standard' because it is based on a Christian scripture.

Again, believe as you will. Everyone judges books differently. You don't like that, to bad.

I have met several people up here in the North that also like the series and are not "fundamentalist".

My advice to you is to stop tossing the word fundamentist like it was candy.

I'm not aware I am "tossing the word fundamentist like it was candy". You might like to come spend some time in rural NE Georgia, and then tell me I'm overstating my case...

Within 20 miles of my house, there is a town (Demorest) that has a 'charter' by the townsfolk, that forbids any venue from trading alcohol (at all, ever)... because it is a 'dry town', for religious reasons... truly, my friend... I am not being flippant when I talk about fundamentalists... this REALLY is their 'heartland'.

They did drag out a bit, but I personally loved the atmosphere and the way he incorporates a modern human from our world in a fantasy environment.

I've read a few like that, most of which I have liked better. It's not that I don't see the appeal of the Thomas Covenant books, they just have nothing to sell me. Well - I already mentioned some things I like... not ENOUGH to sell me.

I've read a few like that, most of which I have liked better. It's not that I don't see the appeal of the Thomas Covenant books, they just have nothing to sell me. Well - I already mentioned some things I like... not ENOUGH to sell me.Yeah, I can understand that.

Corneliu, have you found anything besides your personal experiences that this series is well liked with non-religious people?

Because one is science fiction and the other is religious fiction. You have to judge them differently because they are not the same genre.

That is your choice.

Again, believe as you will. Everyone judges books differently. You don't like that, to bad.

Then don't argue about how well written the books are, unless you are willing to discuss it in 'relative' terms.

You seem to think a book is 'well written' if you LIKE it... but that really isn't so. There are 'objective' measures of writing... you might HATE a book that is well-written, or you may love a book that is badly written... it has no quantitative correlation.

Example: The Lord of the Rings books, technically, are fairly badly written... but I adore them. They have other virtues which MORE THAN compensate for the 'writing', like their importance to literature.

The 'Left Behind' books were not well written, and they are ALSO unappealing for a number of other reasons, not least being the pleasure the authors seem to derive from a vision of a world of suffering and damnation... like we don't have enough suffering in the news...

Its a WHAT IF. Jeez! Its a look at WHAT COULD happen IF the rapture occured.

Its like anything else. When something major happens, there's going to be chaos and tragedy and suffering. Need I point out some of that here in real life to make my point?

Its a WHAT IF. Jeez! Its a look at WHAT COULD happen IF the rapture occured.

Its like anything else. When something major happens, there's going to be chaos and tragedy and suffering. Need I point out some of that here in real life to make my point?The whole thing about Israel in the beginning was pretty naive and silly though. I liked it how Ethiopia and Libya were called "Middle Eastern countries"...

Ooooh, I need one of those... I'll be sooo popular around here.... :D
LMAO! The same thing occured to me! I live right here in the heart of "Bible Country," and am surrounded by Southern Baptists! Haaaaallllp! :eek: