NationStates Jolt Archive

I really, REALLY hate to go back to the actual 9-11 incedent, but i want to say one thing from loose change. What happened to each of those 6 ton steel engines that crashed into the pentagon. they didnt even make a mark on the building.

Stereotyping, even better. What a great way to make an argument.

You missed my point. I'm not saying that everyone who reads popular mechanics is one of those steryotypical men, I'm saying that I really don't like the non-existant person that perfectly embodies the male steryotype that popular mechanics is pitched to.

I really, REALLY hate to go back to the actual 9-11 incedent, but i want to say one thing from loose change. What happened to each of those 6 ton steel engines that crashed into the pentagon. they didnt even make a mark on the building.

This is a 6-ton steel engine, compared to a 300-ton fully laden airliner? I wonder which one is going to make a mark on the building?

Gun control doesn't work, just look at Boston or the UK. Guns are either illegal or incredibly difficult to acquire, yet for some unknown reason violent and armed crime is through the roof. Could it be that its the criminals that are committing the crimes and not the guns?

As for 9/11 conspiracy theories, the moon landings allegedly being faked etc etc, what a load of bollocks. The so-called 'evidence' provided is usually destroyed by any basic academic research or through speaking to eyewitnesses (in the case of 9/11) or scientists (in the case of the moon-landings).

Let's look at 9/11. I've heard the whole range of conspiracy theories. I've heard that it was a controlled demolition (strange then that the building collapsed from the top down rather than from the bottom as is normal in a controlled demolition) and that explosives were placed there by Government/Zionist conspirators. How exactly, are you going to get enough explosives into the each of the towers of the WTC, then plant them in such a way that they cause it to be demolished, over 80 floors up, without anyone knowing? Anyone with any knowledge of explosives demolition knows that this would be incredibly difficult. Its not something that could be done overnight, or indeed over several nights without causing massive disruption, ie floors and ceilings being ripped away. Someone told me that it must be an controlled demolition, because burning aviation fuel isn't hot enough to melt the steel girders that make up the WTC. Very true, but anyone with even a basic knowledge of material properties knows that when heated sufficiently, steel can be weakened without being melted. Combine this heat with the impact of a fully loaded 767 into the building, and you've got one weakened structure. What do weakened structures do? They collapse. Its called science, people!

The best ones? They weren't really planes, but missiles piloted by the Government. That's brilliant. How many missiles do you think the Government has that look like 767s (or 757s in the case of the Pentagon or United 93), sound like 767s, perform like 767s and, yes, crash like 767s. How do you account for the deaths of all the crews and passengers? Someone told me "but they didn'y have any windows, you can see in this still from the footage". Yes, that very blurred still from the footage, where the aircraft is a blur anyway, so you wouldn't be able to see any windows anyway.

It was a Jewish plot (sorry, Zionist, might as well use the same wording as the anti-Semites) and the Jews were all told to stay at home by Ariel Sharon and his Zionists because of the operation by their American Neo-Con puppets. The 'evidence' for this is that apparently no Jews died in in the WTC. Really? I'd read in several sources that a number of Jews died, and a large number escaped during the evacuation of the buildings. Maybe they didn't get the Zionist email? Or maybe that theory is load of hooey created by anti-Semitic bigoted morons who would rather blame everything on the Jews that think up a rational explaination for something.

What's more convincing? That Islamic terrorists hijacked some airliners and used them for a suicide operation (both things that Islamic terrorists are historically known for) or that the Neo-Con Bush Government, in conspiracy with its Zionist overlords, secretly mined the WTC and the Pentagon, then arranged for some missiles that had the size, shape, appearance, sound and characteristics of airliners to be built and piloted by remote control into the WTC and the Pentagon to look like a terrorist attack so that the Neo-Cons and Zionists, oh hell let's just say the Jews, can invade and dominate the Middle East and get lots of oil. Come on people, no matter what your opinion of the Bush administration (and I'm not a fan) if you think the latter, then you're seriously delusional and have a very twisted sense of logic.

I really, REALLY hate to go back to the actual 9-11 incedent, but i want to say one thing from loose change. What happened to each of those 6 ton steel engines that crashed into the pentagon. they didnt even make a mark on the building.
Basic physics my friend. It was easier for the wings (and the engines) to collapse to the side of the plane and go through the hole that the plane itself had made than for the wings to actually go into the building on their own. The engines probably suffered similar damage to the plane itself, absolute and total annihilation. You have to remember that a plane was being shot hundreds of feet into a fortified, concrete building. The force caused by such an impact is quite capable of breaking lots of heavy and strong things into little, bitty pieces.

Actually, the ownership of slaves is inherently corrupt. It is extending near unlimited power over another person without reason or cause, so as to benefit yourself. That's pretty fucking corrupt in my personal opinion. And to hell with the fact that he freed them when he died. He was dead, a dead man cannot actively exercise any power over another human being.

if you put anything in a negative light it will look negative (not defending slavery here). when you die they could go to family, friends, or sold again from a will or last words or something

You missed my point. I'm not saying that everyone who reads popular mechanics is one of those steryotypical men, I'm saying that I really don't like the non-existant person that perfectly embodies the male steryotype that popular mechanics is pitched to.
Really? I've got several friends who are students at Universities across the country who feel that Popular Mechanics is a very entertaining magazine to read. It deals with their interest, machines and technology. For example, my one friend happens to be currently attending Columbia University in New York. He reads PopMech because it talks about machines in an entertaining way (unlike his textbooks), his personal favorite topic. Does that make him a moron? Certainly not. Furthermore, PopMech is targeted at a diverse group of people, with varied interests. Your "stereotypical male" is actually a broad spectrum of radically different people.

If you were to stop being so narrow with your social associations you'd discover that these "stereotypical men" aren't quite so stereotypical. Once upon a time I thought that the world was primarily populated by stupid people and I refused to deal with those I'd deemed stupid. But you'd be surprised at who I discovered was not stupid.

I know that the empitome of those steryotipical men doesn't exist, but I don't like people who are ignorant of the world and couldn't care less. They are just perfectly fine killing off the environment with their unnesscesarally huge trucks, or hating all people that look arab because they are responsible for 9/11. I don't like how they support a man who could do so much good for this country, but doesn't and says he is.

-thanks for the arguement, it was a good one.
bye (telegram me if you want to continue.)

if you put anything in a negative light it will look negative (not defending slavery here). when you die they could go to family, friends, or sold again from a will or last words or something
The topic was corruption, which one can only do on an individual level. Once Washington was dead, he could no longer command his slaves, and he no longer had power over them.

The biggest problem with conspiracy theories that involve the government is that they assume the government is competent.

Really? I've got several friends who are students at Universities across the country who feel that Popular Mechanics is a very entertaining magazine to read. It deals with their interest, machines and technology. For example, my one friend happens to be currently attending Columbia University in New York. He reads PopMech because it talks about machines in an entertaining way (unlike his textbooks), his personal favorite topic. Does that make him a moron? Certainly not. Furthermore, PopMech is targeted at a diverse group of people, with varied interests. Your "stereotypical male" is actually a broad spectrum of radically different people.

I think you won that one, but that magazine still says stupid stuff.
(telegram me a response, I have to go.)

well im gonna go for now and play my computer game. i might come back and we can continue this interesting debate.

so was every rich white man at the time. And that's not being corrupt, that's doing bad things. He actually gave all of his slaves their freedom when he died.
That's also not true. Most people never owned slaves. Even most rich white people.

How the terrorist did manages to fool the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD)

9/11 was a conspiracy. It was a conspiracy of Islamic religious fundamentalists known as "Al-Qaeda" bent on killing every American citizen and restoring the Islamic caliphate.

How the terrorist did manages to fool the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD)
Couple ways.

1.) NORAD wasn't involved until late in the game. Up until this point in time, NORAD is primarily concerned with strikes launched from another country, like the PRC or Russia. They are not associate with strikes launched from the American Interior. In faaaaaaact...the primary source of radar information was from the civil traffic controllers and the FAA, not NORAD.

2.) The hijackers disabled the radio transponders on the planes. The air-traffic controllers did not know who or what the unidentified blips on their radar screens were. In fact, one of the things you might have heard is the fact that NORAD was alerted to the situation by a telephone call from the ATC's.

First of all, Loose Change is not "c-grade".
Second, it has nothing to do with "jewish involvement".
Third, no video is "banned" in america, we have this thing called the 1ST AMENDMENT which grants us FREE SPEECH, even if it's anti-government, or suggests american involvement in the events of 9/11.

One thing is for sure, the official US government story to 9/11 IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY, so the next time you trolls talk about how stupid "conspiracy theorists" are, look in the goddamn mirror you zealot.

By the way, good luck on finding any real "evidence" to contradict the evidence presented in documentaries like Loose Change and Martial Law 9/11.
The evidence supporting government involvement, and the evidence contradicting the official conspiracy theory are just too plentiful to ignore.
I'm the most pro-american patriot I know, the idiots who support the desecration of the constitution and buy into every government spoodfed propagandistic conspiracy theory are the real "anti-americans".

Edit 2: Many trolls and tools are going to flame me, call me names, and try to offend or discredit me, but I don't give a shit because the truth is a hard swallow.

I'm with you, dude (, 'xcept for "pro-american patriot", but I can dig your argument even for that.)

9/11 was a conspiracy. It was a conspiracy of Islamic religious fundamentalists known as "Al-Qaeda" bent on killing every American citizen and restoring the Islamic caliphate.
No, they didn't want to kill every American. I believe the figure mentioned by Osama was 4 million Americans. That figure may have been revised since we didn't come begging for mercy but instead blew up two muslim countries in exchange for two skyscrapers.

One of the things that is more difficult to address in the government Official version is the demolition of World trade center building 7, It wasn’t hit by a plane, It had a small fire that the sprinkler system was able to control. But it fell at demolition speed at around 5:00 pm 9-11-2001

One of the things that is more difficult to address in the government Official version is the demolition of World trade center building 7, It wasn’t hit by a plane, It had a small fire that the sprinkler system was able to control. But it fell at demolition speed at around 5:00 pm 9-11-2001

You do realize that Building 7 was badly damaged right? I mean severely damaged!

it wasn’t, show me a photo of damage before it was demolish.

it wasn’t, show me a photo of damage before it was demolish.
Since you won't go to the truth, I'll bring it to you.

FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately 10 stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors--along with the building's unusual construction--were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.

it wasn’t, show me a photo of damage before it was demolish.

What's the point? You already have your mind made up.

Anyone who buys into these theories is a moron with too much time on their hands. Just get a life! Why can't they just accept that what they saw is actually what happened, oh wait, maybe it wasnt terrorists but aliens on their way to go visit their friends in Area-51 after they were captured in Roswell?
Bloody Idiots!

G'day all,

I was just watching a documentary on commercial television in Australia which briefly touched on some of the conspiracy theories covering Jewish involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

I have also seen a commercial television program, made by an American (apparantly banned in America) and shown on Austrlian TV which talks about reasons why the US government was involved in the attacks.

There's also a really c-grade google video called "loose change" which covers a lot of these theories.

Anyone seen it, or anything like it?

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good sources of information that attempt to counter or dispel these conspiracies???
Those idiotic conspiracy theories are almost as stupid as the dolts who make them up.

I'd like to take that advice on, but unfortunately I can't. I am at university here in Australia, and there are a lot of people (supposedly educated) who really buy into these theories. I don't like my only response to them being to take a deep breath and move on. I want to be able to rebut their arguments convincingly. Hence, the request…

Ask them... "So how are you coping in your world of ignorance?"

I said that to a guy who was banging on about how the US government faked the moon landings. He said nothing else from then on.

Building 7 was the third skyscraper to collapse into rubble on September 11, 2001. According to the government, small fires leveled this building, but fires have never before or since destroyed a steel skyscraper.

Building 7 was the third skyscraper to collapse into rubble on September 11, 2001. According to the government, small fires leveled this building, but fires have never before or since destroyed a steel skyscraper.

Did you read PsychoticDan's post?

Ask them... "So how are you coping in your world of ignorance?"

I said that to a guy who was banging on about how the US government faked the moon landings. He said nothing else from then on.

I am gonna have to siggie that one.:D

"Pulling" Building 7

A PBS documentary about the 9/11/01 attack, America Rebuilds, features an interview with the leaseholder of the destroyed WTC complex, Larry Silverstein. In it, the elderly developer makes the following statement:
I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it." And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.

========

and now Mr. Silverstein is after the Sears Tower
http://www.realestatejournal.com/propertyreport/newsandtrends/20040312-starkman.html


-

Building 7 was the third skyscraper to collapse into rubble on September 11, 2001. According to the government, small fires leveled this building, but fires have never before or since destroyed a steel skyscraper.
no
NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good sources of information that attempt to counter or dispel these conspiracies???

Most people fall into one of two categories: those who will buy any given conspiracy theory regardless of the lack of evidence for it or the existence of evidence against; or normal people with brains.

Not to say that conspiracies aren't possible: there'll always be at least a faint question over the JFK assassination, as far as I'm concerned - but even then, it's not something I'm going to get worked up about.

As for 9/11, the conspiracy theories surrounding that are stupid AND unnecessary. The biggest flaw in the so-called 'reasoning' of all these nutters is that no matter how elaborate and convoluted they make their stories, the fact is that a 'George Bush Did It' explanation doesn't require ANY of the asinine pieces of supposed 'evidence' that these idiots spend their time mailing to each other and posting on their the-truth-is-out-there websites.

So not only are they onto a loser in the logic stakes as it is, but they're wasting their time on vapid inanities in any case.

I'd recommend you just leave them to it.

This will be a subject like the war in Iraq. Many told Bush that there wasn’t enough hard evidence to go to war except that they had missiles capable of hitting a target only a few hundred miles outside Iraq, no real treat to the Unites states, but they said that people that thought that way where cowards and idiots, now that the invasion has killed more people then Sddam Hussein any republicans made a 180 and admit it wasn’t a well though idea but we are there so lets make the best of it. even the German government have said that the bush administration is a Hitler style government, they must know what they are talking about, later in history many Americans will only say: "I didn’t knew" just like the German people did after Hitler.

The worst kind of blindness is when a person doesn’t want to see.

The armament manufacturer are the ones the own the News outlets (If you don’t know that go and find out about GE)
They study how to brain wash a country with false fears and make it seam 0k to invade and kill people, its like the crusades all over again, kill for a lie, or do you really believe that Jesus wanted all of that killing?

Now go and fear the Iranians, Cubans, Mexicans, Chinese, French, Venezuelans, they are against you, so its 0k to kill them, the TV will say and as good zombies you are you wont think about it to much, let it be, let god sort the good ones from the bad ones after they are killed.

All I have to say about 9/11 conspiracy theorists:


http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5133/aboutslinkies3iu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That's Fucking Great

All I have to say about 9/11 conspiracy theorists:


http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5133/aboutslinkies3iu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That's fvckin hilarious! I hate those theorists. Did you hear, the Pentagon released mor of that security camera tape showing a large white objecte hit the face of the building. They single handedly destroyed all theories of a missle!

That's fvckin hilarious! I hate those theorists. Did you hear, the Pentagon released mor of that security camera tape showing a large white objecte hit the face of the building. They single handedly destroyed all theories of a missle!

Careful. We have people on here who do not subscribe to the truth. They rather believe in conspiracies.

That's fvckin hilarious! I hate those theorists. Did you hear, the Pentagon released mor of that security camera tape showing a large white objecte hit the face of the building. They single handedly destroyed all theories of a missle!


Did I hear? No, I saw. There is no Boeing 757 in that tape.

Did I hear? No, I saw. There is no Boeing 757 in that tape.

And here is my proof.

Bwahaha, we all know Sadam paid the terrorist, and now we got their oil as pay back, lets roll!
I say we hang all the stupid people that dont want to see the truth that we all saw on tv

Bwahaha, we all know Sadam paid the terrorist, and now we got their oil as pay back, lets roll!
I say we hang all the stupid people that dont want to see the truth that we all saw on tv

And here's stupidity on theother side.

Bwahaha, we all know Sadam paid the terrorist, and now we got their oil as pay back, lets roll!
I say we hang all the stupid people that dont want to see the truth that we all saw on tv

A hanging? Their hasn't been a good one of those in centuries (correct me if i'm wrong). I'll get my noose!
Anyone else got any excuses, er...I mean a good reason to hang people whose opions differ from mine?

Why are people always blaming us(Jews) for starting trouble. We never wanted trouble. We don't sit on street corners with pamphlets asking for converts or shave our heads and ask for money. We just want to be left alone to do our stuff.

You can take off your tinfoil hat now.

Tests have been done on the tinfoil hats. They actually amplify brain waves, just in case anyone can read them.

Tests have been done on the tinfoil hats. They actually amplify brain waves, just in case anyone can read them.

And if you go outside with one on, you can bake your brain. Baked Brains, YUM!!!!

Did I hear? No, I saw. There is no Boeing 757 in that tape.

If it was a missile, where is the smoke trail?

Did I hear? No, I saw. There is no Boeing 757 in that tape.
Bad low res internet copy. The actualy tape is much clearer. That aside, how about the security guard who walks into frame? You think he didn't see the plane? Or the cop car that drives through. Do you think they didn't notice it? Or about the dozens that were off camera. It was, afterall, rush hour. You think they were all paid to lie? What happened to all the people who were on the actual flight? Where did they go? How about the cell phone calls from the people on the flight? You think they were lying when they were telling their relatives that their plane had been hijacked? How about this guy:

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

Damn, that would give me nightmares for the rest of my fucking life.

Did I hear? No, I saw. There is no Boeing 757 in that tape.
No no no no no. It just came out yesterday or the day before. They released more frames. Whatever hit it is bigger than a corporate jet or missle.

A hanging? Their hasn't been a good one of those in centuries (correct me if i'm wrong). I'll get my noose!
Anyone else got any excuses, er...I mean a good reason to hang people whose opions differ from mine?
What about those two gay palestinians. They were hung just last year.

What about those two gay palestinians. They were hung just last year.

I didn't hear about that. I guess I missed out. Never mind, maybe I'll catch the next hanging with luck. (although not as the guest of honor).

G'day all,

I was just watching a documentary on commercial television in Australia which briefly touched on some of the conspiracy theories covering Jewish involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

I have also seen a commercial television program, made by an American (apparantly banned in America) and shown on Austrlian TV which talks about reasons why the US government was involved in the attacks.

There's also a really c-grade google video called "loose change" which covers a lot of these theories.

Anyone seen it, or anything like it?

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good sources of information that attempt to counter or dispel these conspiracies???

ok, I haven't read through all this post as it is too long so I apologise if I am repeating someone!
I was pointed in the direction of Loose Change by a friend of mine which I watched and was shocked initially. I couldn't believe what I was being told as I had never really thought about 9/11 since it actually happened so I set about looking into it myself.....
My conclusion is that there is overwhelming evidence to suggest some kind of government involvement however, I cannot prove that absolutely. What certainly is clear is that the official story (9/11 commision report) is not a representation of what happened that day. I would suggest that you start off by reading the commission report http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm then look round for other evidence, there are hundreds of sites out there that go into detail on various aspects of 9/11.
A good film to watch is 911: In plane Site. This documentary only uses pictures and video footage and avoids using opinion to ask questions that should be answered and to date have not.
My opinion overall is that there are 2 many questions unanswered and there are too many experts that do not agree with the official stories for this to be ignored. Given that this is one of the most heinous crimes of the century I feel that it should be fully and openly investigated so that the perpetrators can be brought to justice - I do not count a single schizophraenic moroccan guy as a perpetrator...

Oh and one final thing to do with the popular mechanics article. Check this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Mechanics and look at the hearst organisation and their list of assets then ask yourself if the author of that was really unbiased...

*snip*

Read through the thread. You'll see that all the conspiracies get debunked.

Read through the thread. You'll see that all the conspiracies get debunked.


We have been here before Corneliu, in your opinion the theories have been debunked however in mine they have not. The official story has been debunked, the debunks have been debunked and they in turn have been debunked again - it goes on and on...

The point I make is that it is down to you to look for yourself and draw your own conclusions like I have done. My conclusion being that there are far too many flaws in the official story for them to expect us to believe it without question and that if there was nothing to hide then they would be a lot more open about it than they are being.

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

Why would a structural engineer have hold of body parts? Also, why does he need to re-enforce what he's saying by adding "okay?" to the end of his statement...?
Question: are all people that do not subscribe to the official story cracked up conspiracy nuts?
Personally I do not like this label. I'm just a regular guy that does a regular job. I don't care whether the moon landings happened, nor do I give a shit about pearl harbour, the theory about mind control waves I think is absolutely ridiculous and I'm not convinced that the Illuminati are trying to take over the world! However, I do NOT hold with the official story around 9/11 - does that mean I'm a nutter?!

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

Why would a structural engineer have hold of body parts? Also, why does he need to re-enforce what he's saying by adding "okay?" to the end of his statement...?
Question: are all people that do not subscribe to the official story cracked up conspiracy nuts?
Personally I do not like this label. I'm just a regular guy that does a regular job. I don't care whether the moon landings happened, nor do I give a shit about pearl harbour, the theory about mind control waves I think is absolutely ridiculous and I'm not convinced that the Illuminati are trying to take over the world! However, I do NOT hold with the official story around 9/11 - does that mean I'm a nutter?!
yes it does

until you can explain how they got thousands of people to lie about it, you are a nutter.

answer all the questions contained in psychotic dans post

That aside, how about the security guard who walks into frame? You think he didn't see the plane? Or the cop car that drives through. Do you think they didn't notice it? Or about the dozens that were off camera. It was, afterall, rush hour. You think they were all paid to lie? What happened to all the people who were on the actual flight? Where did they go? How about the cell phone calls from the people on the flight? You think they were lying when they were telling their relatives that their plane had been hijacked?

give us a start with these. ignoring these extremely important questions means you arent interested in the truth but only lame conspiracy theories, i.e. you are a nutter.

What would be the motive for the Gov't to attack four of its own buildings? One would have been more than enough if it wanted a reason to be all pre-emptive on somebody.

yes it does

until you can explain how they got thousands of people to lie about it, you are a nutter.

answer all the questions contained in psychotic dans post



give us a start with these. ignoring these extremely important questions means you arent interested in the truth but only lame conspiracy theories, i.e. you are a nutter.

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for the generous dose of insults...
With regards to the questions that psychotic dan has asked, I cannot answer them and I don't see why its my job to do so. My position on this issue is that there are far too many holes in the official story and from the evidence I have seen I believe it was an inside job. But as for how it could be covered up I have no idea and for me this is the sinister part of the whole thing. Somebody out there knows what happened but that person is not me nor anyone on this forum. They say that a plane hit the pentagon, from the pictures I have seen there is no sign of a plane and the video footage released does not show anything useful. Based on that, I can say that there was no plane. However, flight 77 no longer exists nor do the passengers but that does not mean I know what happened to the plane.
Imagine a friend of yours got arrested for a murder that occurred one night and that you had spent all that night with your friend and therefore knew it was nothing to do with him/her. So you tell the police this and they turn to you and say "well if it wasn't your friend, then who committed the murder? You must know if you know it wasn't your friend".
Catch my drift...?
I am not about avoiding the truth I am about finding the truth. This issue has seriously affected me and believe me, I take no comfort from thinking that any government anywhere could have any part in this whether that role be the orchestration of the events or plain incompetence that allowed the events to happen.

With regards to the questions that psychotic dan has asked, I cannot answer them and I don't see why its my job to do so.

Because those questions are aimed at those who believe in these conspiracy theories that have long been destroyed.

My position on this issue is that there are far too many holes in the official story and from the evidence I have seen I believe it was an inside job. But as for how it could be covered up I have no idea and for me this is the sinister part of the whole thing.

Then this should be evidence Number 1 that the conspiracy theory is false. There is no way the government could keep this covered up for this long.

Somebody out there knows what happened but that person is not me nor anyone on this forum.

Despite the fact that we all have posted evidence debunking this stupid conspiracy.

They say that a plane hit the pentagon, from the pictures I have seen there is no sign of a plane and the video footage released does not show anything useful. Based on that, I can say that there was no plane. However, flight 77 no longer exists nor do the passengers but that does not mean I know what happened to the plane.

Then explain the eyewitnesses who saw the whole thing.

Imagine a friend of yours got arrested for a murder that occurred one night and that you had spent all that night with your friend and therefore knew it was nothing to do with him/her. So you tell the police this and they turn to you and say "well if it wasn't your friend, then who committed the murder? You must know if you know it wasn't your friend".
Catch my drift...?

Then explain to me why the eyewitnesses saw a plane and the conspiracy nuts say it was a missile. Frankly, we all know it was a plane even if the conspiracy theory nut cases want to say otherwise for the evidence of Flight 77.

Imagine a friend of yours got arrested for a murder that occurred one night and that you had spent all that night with your friend and therefore knew it was nothing to do with him/her. So you tell the police this and they turn to you and say "well if it wasn't your friend, then who committed the murder? You must know if you know it wasn't your friend".
Catch my drift...?

I've got a scenario that I think is more analogous to this case. Imagine a group of 120 people all watched as your friend commited a murder. Now you, like all these conspiracy nuts, were no where near your friend and had no idea where he was at the time of the murder. Later, you see a video tape from a security camera that shows a bunch of blurry stuff. This tape you see, however, is a bad, low-res internet copy of the orginal. In it, you see a blur that does not look like your friend. You also see some video stills from the tape which never shows the knife. You then conclude that there was no knife and that your friend was never there. You also conclude that all these people who actually stood there watching as your friend commited the murder are lyers. You conclude that the cops who arrived at the scene to find your friend standing over the dead body with a knife in his hand and covered in blood are also lying. You conclude that the crime scene investigators that found your friend prints on the knife and matched the victims DNA to the blood on his clothes are also lying. Finally, you ignore the fact that the victim is, in fact, dead and that your friend had been sending letters to the victim for years saying he was going to kill him publically so everyone could see. You ignore the fact that your friend fully admits and actually gloats about the murder. After all of these conclusions of yours the prosecution decides to make it's theory of the crime backed up by the case notes public like the 9/11 notes are here:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

But instead, you decide that the only people you have the time to listen to are your friend's family who, like most families, will say he's innocent even if they were there to watch him do it. You'll take two hours to listen to his mother talk about what a good boy he is and that he must have had some CIA implants in his brain that made him do it, but you won't take 15 minutes to read the prosecutions notes because you have so much emotionally invested that, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you do not want to believe your friend is a murderer.

Then explain the eyewitnesses who saw the whole thing.

Hearsay is an awesome way to win a trial...

Hearsay is an awesome way to win a trial...

Who says it was hearsay?

Hearsay is an awesome way to win a trial...
Hearsay is when someone tells you what they did or saw, then you take what they said to you - hear - and testify to it in court - say. Thus hear-say. We are not talking about hearsay. These are actual witnesses that saw it happen, not people who know people who saw it happen. Since we're talking about hearsay, however, your entire conspiracy theory is 100% hearsay. There's not a single persona at all that was an actual witness to anything that happened that day that doubts that commercial jetliners piloted by Islamic terrorists crashed four planes on 9/11. You have nothing but people who saw bad videotapes and read some documents to back up yoru conspracy theories.

But instead, you decide that the only people you have the time to listen to are your friend's family who, like most families, will say he's innocent even if they were there to watch him do it. You'll take two hours to listen to his mother talk about what a good boy he is and that he must have had some CIA implants in his brain that made him do it, but you won't take 15 minutes to read the prosecutions notes because you have so much emotionally invested that, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you do not want to believe your friend is a murderer.

I can see your point, but I can assure you that with regards to the events of 9/11 I have been far from emotional. Also, the 500+ pages of the commission report took a bit longer than 15 minutes to read so I think it a little unfair for you to say I have been biased in my reading.
With regards to the eyewitnesses, as far as I have read the theory about it being a missile to hit the pentagon was based on eyewitness reports of a military helicopter in the area and local news reports that happened on the day - although if memory serves I believe the initial report from the AP was that a bomb truck had struck the building but this was quickly denied by the pentagon who said it was a plane.
The other point which I feel is very relevant is that there are considerably more than 2 security cameras pointing at the pentagon - after all the pentagon is supposedly the most secure building in the US - so I would be wholly prepared to believe the eyewitnesses if they released more than 6-7 frames from only 2 cameras.
Besides that, it is not only the events of the day that are relevant, you have to look at the history of the Bush administration, ties between the Bush and Bin Laden family (well documented ties too), corporate interests (ie Cheney being CEO of Halliburton, Bush's ties with the Carlyle group etc), PNAC's involvement in US politics and so on... Given the amount of money that these companies have made as a result of wars based on 9/11, I would not put it beyond the realms of impossibility that they could get some people to say they saw a plane that day at the pentagon. Especially if that is all that is being said by the media on the subject.

I can see your point, but I can assure you that with regards to the events of 9/11 I have been far from emotional. Also, the 500+ pages of the commission report took a bit longer than 15 minutes to read so I think it a little unfair for you to say I have been biased in my reading.
With regards to the eyewitnesses, as far as I have read the theory about it being a missile to hit the pentagon was based on eyewitness reports of a military helicopter in the area and local news reports that happened on the day - although if memory serves I believe the initial report from the AP was that a bomb truck had struck the building but this was quickly denied by the pentagon who said it was a plane.
The other point which I feel is very relevant is that there are considerably more than 2 security cameras pointing at the pentagon - after all the pentagon is supposedly the most secure building in the US - so I would be wholly prepared to believe the eyewitnesses if they released more than 6-7 frames from only 2 cameras.
Besides that, it is not only the events of the day that are relevant, you have to look at the history of the Bush administration, ties between the Bush and Bin Laden family (well documented ties too), corporate interests (ie Cheney being CEO of Halliburton, Bush's ties with the Carlyle group etc), PNAC's involvement in US politics and so on... Given the amount of money that these companies have made as a result of wars based on 9/11, I would not put it beyond the realms of impossibility that they could get some people to say they saw a plane that day at the pentagon. Especially if that is all that is being said by the media on the subject.
Yeah, I know all about those stupid ties to teh Bin Laden family. You really want to look at the history of George Bush? Okay...

Katrina
Iraq
Harriet Miers
"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job!"
"It's hard to put food on your family."

I could go on but I don't want to keep typing that shit. Suffice it to say that he is the STUPIDEST president in US history. His level of competence is so disasterous that I think he may well have succeeded in destroying our country. We're like Wily Coyote having just run over a cliff but still hanging in th air because we have not realized it yet.

I'm sorry, you think this guy is smart enough to have possibly coordinated a conspiracy involving thousands of people? You think he's somehow competent enough to keep it together for five years? You'rs silly.

As for the eyewitnesses, that was a less than clever dodge. the eyewinesses I was talking about were the dozens, maybe hundreds of people who saw the plane hit the building, not some people a couple miles away who saw a helicopter. Also, you are making shit up. I was awake and watching television from the moment the first plane hit the WTC. There was never any report that it was a dump truck. By the time the plane hit the Pentagon two planes had already hit the WTC and all air traffic was grounded and all planes in the air were accounted for except the ones whos transponders were turned off. No one was looking for hijacked dump trucks ramming into buildings. The second there was an explosion at the Pentagon everyone knew in the exact instant what had just happend. There were reports before the plane hit that people were calling from teh planes on their cell phones.

You are emotionally invested in this and I do not believe for one second that you read a single page of the 9/11 commision's report. In anycase, I provided you a link to the article from pop mechanics that debunks rather succeinctly every single point that you will makein this thread ro that "Loose Change" made in that stupid film. All you care about is the fact that believing there was a conspiracy gives you some sense of purpose in life and helps you to feel like you're somehow smarter than all those dups out there who really believe in the stupid idea that Islamic terrorists crashed planes into buildings.

You're the dup. :p

You are emotionally invested in this and I do not believe for one second that you read a single page of the 9/11 commision's report. In anycase, I provided you a link to the article from pop mechanics that debunks rather succeinctly every single point that you will makein this thread ro that "Loose Change" made in that stupid film. All you care about is the fact that believing there was a conspiracy gives you some sense of purpose in life and helps you to feel like you're somehow smarter than all those dups out there who really believe in the stupid idea that Islamic terrorists crashed planes into buildings.

You're the dup. :p

1. It makes no odds to me that you don't believe I read the commission report because I know that I have done.
2. I have read the popular mechanics article and also several debunks of that and debunks of that etc. etc.
3. I am not emotionally invested in this, when I started my reading my aim was to prove Loose Change wrong.
4. My aim is not to gain a sense of purpose in life, I lead a fulfilling life thank you very much. As I said earlier, I gain no comfort from thinking that 9/11 is not as the official story tells it. I would just like to know the truth.

With regards to the bomb truck, I have just done a little research and the story cannot be ratified. It is from the website "hunt the boeing" which I saw when it was first done - way before I started looking thoroughly at the evidence. Therefore, I apologise for using this.
Finally, I agree with you about Bush and IF this is a govt. conspiracy (N.B. I have never said it is I have always maintained that I simply do not believe the official story) he's got plenty of smart people around him that could take care of all the planning etc that would be required.

"Pulling" Building 7

A PBS documentary about the 9/11/01 attack, America Rebuilds, features an interview with the leaseholder of the destroyed WTC complex, Larry Silverstein. In it, the elderly developer makes the following statement:
I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it." And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.

-

I love this one as 'proof' of a conspiracy based on 'pulling' a building is slang for controlled demolition.

The fire commander calls the building owner and says theres a fire in the building, the owner decides to demolish it..... so in the time frame between the WTC towers collapse at 10.30am, and WTC 7 collapse at 5pm, the owner had managed to get a demolition team into the building, lay enough charges for the job, then retire to a safe distance, all in a building that was on fire and had been hit by large bits of tower debris.

so that means the NYFD was in on the conspiracy, as well as the owner and the guys at the WTC site, in fact it looks like the only people left on the planet who were'nt in on the 9/11 conspiracy were me and you...... and I'm believing the official version........ plus what I saw on TV that afternoon/evening.... which will never go away:(

El-presidente Boris