NationStates Jolt Archive

G'day all,

I was just watching a documentary on commercial television in Australia which briefly touched on some of the conspiracy theories covering Jewish involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

I have also seen a commercial television program, made by an American (apparantly banned in America) and shown on Austrlian TV which talks about reasons why the US government was involved in the attacks.

There's also a really c-grade google video called "loose change" which covers a lot of these theories.

Anyone seen it, or anything like it?

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good sources of information that attempt to counter or dispel these conspiracies???

Take a deep breath.... And move on. Ignore stupid cospiracy theories: they're stupid.

Take a deep breath.... And move on. Ignore stupid cospiracy theories: they're stupid.

I'd like to take that advice on, but unfortunately I can't. I am at university here in Australia, and there are a lot of people (supposedly educated) who really buy into these theories. I don't like my only response to them being to take a deep breath and move on. I want to be able to rebut their arguments convincingly. Hence, the request…

First of all, Loose Change is not "c-grade".
Second, it has nothing to do with "jewish involvement".
Third, no video is "banned" in america, we have this thing called the 1ST AMENDMENT which grants us FREE SPEECH, even if it's anti-government, or suggests american involvement in the events of 9/11.

One thing is for sure, the official US government story to 9/11 IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY, so the next time you trolls talk about how stupid "conspiracy theorists" are, look in the goddamn mirror you zealot.

By the way, good luck on finding any real "evidence" to contradict the evidence presented in documentaries like Loose Change and Martial Law 9/11.
The evidence supporting government involvement, and the evidence contradicting the official conspiracy theory are just too plentiful to ignore.
I'm the most pro-american patriot I know, the idiots who support the desecration of the constitution and buy into every government spoodfed propagandistic conspiracy theory are the real "anti-americans".

Edit 2: Many trolls and tools are going to flame me, call me names, and try to offend or discredit me, but I don't give a shit because the truth is a hard swallow.

There will always be conspiracy theories about everything. Some will be true, some won't, unfortunately, due to the flood of assholes who want to be famous (or maybe the gov't is forging them all to drown out the real ones?), the true conspiracy theories will always be mostly unknown.

The fact that there was an unmarked white plane around the pentagon a short while after the attack proves nothing. The fact that the lightpoles were unscrewed says a LOT. You need to be able to discern which elements of a conspiracy theory are really relevant. I remember this illuminati documentary where they said that the statue on capitol hill was not in fact the virgin mary, but Persephone.

Big fucking deal. You can take off your tinfoil hat now.

Likewise, you need to be able to tell which conspiracy theories really matter. The government is watching people in supermarkets to know which products to cater? Good, take off all those damn kiddie cereals nobody buys. It doesn't really matter that they spy on you (cause they do) what matters is when they spy on you. And no, the toilet seat doesn't count. The government saw you banging your wife? I'm pretty sure they have enough porn on the internet already.

The only sort of spying that they should not try is political spying, and even then it has it's perks for everybody.

G'day all,

I was just watching a documentary on commercial television in Australia which briefly touched on some of the conspiracy theories covering Jewish involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

I have also seen a commercial television program, made by an American (apparantly banned in America) and shown on Austrlian TV which talks about reasons why the US government was involved in the attacks.

There's also a really c-grade google video called "loose change" which covers a lot of these theories.

Anyone seen it, or anything like it?

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good sources of information that attempt to counter or dispel these conspiracies???

Loose change is drivvel. Most interesting of all these fruit loops who claim conspiracy theory yadayada, they seem to never ever talk to families who lost loved ones that day. For those that claim no plane hit the Pentagon, talk to a rescue worker who worked that day in DC, many have pics and have no problem talking about the half bodies burned still belted in airline seats they had the job of removing to the morgue.

It is easy to sit in a classroom or behind a keyboard and pretend what might and might not have happened but when any of these "educated" people actually go and talk to those who were there or suffered closest to it they soon shut their faces.

Third, no video is "banned" in america, we have this thing called the 1ST AMENDMENT which grants us FREE SPEECH, even if it's anti-government, or suggests american involvement in the events of 9/11.


Tell that to Rachel Corrie

First of all, Loose Change is not "c-grade".
Second, it has nothing to do with "jewish involvement".
Third, no video is "banned" in america, we have this thing called the 1ST AMENDMENT which grants us FREE SPEECH, even if it's anti-government, or suggests american involvement in the events of 9/11.

One thing is for sure, the official US government story to 9/11 IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY, so the next time you trolls talk about how stupid "conspiracy theorists" are, look in the goddamn mirror you zealot.

By the way, good luck on finding any real "evidence" to contradict the evidence presented in documentaries like Loose Change and Martial Law 9/11.
The evidence supporting government involvement, and the evidence contradicting the official conspiracy theory are just too plentiful to ignore.
I'm the most pro-american patriot I know, the idiots who support the desecration of the constitution and buy into every government spoodfed propagandistic conspiracy theory are the real "anti-americans".

Edit 2: Many trolls and tools are going to flame me, call me names, and try to offend or discredit me, but I don't give a shit because the truth is a hard swallow.

1. Well, I consider “Loose Change” to be C-grade. I guess that will just be a matter of interpretation.
2. You say it has nothing to do with Jewish involvement. That is the reason for this post. Can you provide me the evidence to discount this claim? I never said it did, I said I watched a documentary that did. I would love to see the counter argument, and you seem informed. Please provide any sources that may help enlighten me.
3. I said “(apparantly banned in America)”. I didn’t even name the movie, so are you sure it was not banned. How can these movies have been banned in America then:
• 1908: The James Boys in Missouri and Night Riders, banned in Chicago
• 1915: The Birth of a Nation banned in several American cities.
• 1926: The Crimson Kimono, based on a real-life Chicago murder case and political scandal, banned in Chicago.
• 1928: The Racket banned in Chicago.
• 1931: Frankenstein banned in Kansas.
• 1932: Freaks banned in Cleveland.
• 1967: Titicut Follies, distribution blocked by legal order, 1967-1992.
• 1987: Superstar: The Karen Carpenter Story, banned by court order
• 2002: The Profit, legal injunction preventing exhibition: April 2002-present
4. I never once said conspiracy theorists were stupid. I was merely asking someone to present the alternative argument. It seems you are the zealot, with your excesses in view. I am merely looking to understand both sides of the argument so that there can be dialogue.

I don't think calling people trolls and tools helps. If you are strong enough in your beliefs, petty name calling and posturing surely only serves to weaken your stance???

First of all, Loose Change is not "c-grade".
Second, it has nothing to do with "jewish involvement".
Third, no video is "banned" in america, we have this thing called the 1ST AMENDMENT which grants us FREE SPEECH, even if it's anti-government, or suggests american involvement in the events of 9/11.

One thing is for sure, the official US government story to 9/11 IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY, so the next time you trolls talk about how stupid "conspiracy theorists" are, look in the goddamn mirror you zealot.

By the way, good luck on finding any real "evidence" to contradict the evidence presented in documentaries like Loose Change and Martial Law 9/11.
The evidence supporting government involvement, and the evidence contradicting the official conspiracy theory are just too plentiful to ignore.
I'm the most pro-american patriot I know, the idiots who support the desecration of the constitution and buy into every government spoodfed propagandistic conspiracy theory are the real "anti-americans".

Edit 2: Many trolls and tools are going to flame me, call me names, and try to offend or discredit me, but I don't give a shit because the truth is a hard swallow.
i guess we can tell from this that you buy into the 9/11 conspiracy theories hook line and sinker.

Myrth did it.

<.<
>.>

Loose change is drivvel. Most interesting of all these fruit loops who claim conspiracy theory yadayada, they seem to never ever talk to families who lost loved ones that day. For those that claim no plane hit the Pentagon, talk to a rescue worker who worked that day in DC, many have pics and have no problem talking about the half bodies burned still belted in airline seats they had the job of removing to the morgue.

It is easy to sit in a classroom or behind a keyboard and pretend what might and might not have happened but when any of these "educated" people actually go and talk to those who were there or suffered closest to it they soon shut their faces.

One flaw I found in this documentary I watched tonight was as follows: There is a belief that no Jews were killed in the Trade Centre attacks, as they were forewarned and did not come to work. To discount this, the documentary went and spoke to one Jewish family who lost one person. I thought it would have been more effective to list all the Jews killed, rather than just say here is one family who lost one person, therefore Jews were killed.

Anyway, I knnow this is a really messy subject, with so many theories, but I can't help but wonder why there isn't a strong argument out there somewhere that tries to disporve these claims.

First of all, Loose Change is not "c-grade".
Second, it has nothing to do with "jewish involvement".
Third, no video is "banned" in america, we have this thing called the 1ST AMENDMENT which grants us FREE SPEECH, even if it's anti-government, or suggests american involvement in the events of 9/11.

One thing is for sure, the official US government story to 9/11 IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY, so the next time you trolls talk about how stupid "conspiracy theorists" are, look in the goddamn mirror you zealot.

By the way, good luck on finding any real "evidence" to contradict the evidence presented in documentaries like Loose Change and Martial Law 9/11.
The evidence supporting government involvement, and the evidence contradicting the official conspiracy theory are just too plentiful to ignore.
I'm the most pro-american patriot I know, the idiots who support the desecration of the constitution and buy into every government spoodfed propagandistic conspiracy theory are the real "anti-americans".

Edit 2: Many trolls and tools are going to flame me, call me names, and try to offend or discredit me, but I don't give a shit because the truth is a hard swallow.
It must be pretty hard to swallow. You haven't managed to do it yet. Fact is the conspiracy theories go against physics, video evidence, and what actually happens when a building comes down. They rely on your ignorance of these things to make you think that it was done with explosives.

One flaw I found in this documentary I watched tonight was as follows: There is a belief that no Jews were killed in the Trade Centre attacks, as they were forewarned and did not come to work. To discount this, the documentary went and spoke to one Jewish family who lost one person. I thought it would have been more effective to list all the Jews killed, rather than just say here is one family who lost one person, therefore Jews were killed.

Anyway, I knnow this is a really messy subject, with so many theories, but I can't help but wonder why there isn't a strong argument out there somewhere that tries to disporve these claims.

What would be the point? The facts and people are available if someone wants to know for themselves. Each persons ability to critically think and analyze (including common sense) will limit or expand the depth to what someone really wants to know or not. It is like with any gossip monger, if you challenge them it fuels the fire. If you ignore it, some will assume that the CT must be on to something, but most mature people understand that feeding the attention whore is exactly what the desired result is.

It must be pretty hard to swallow. You haven't managed to do it yet. Fact is the conspiracy theories go against physics, video evidence, and what actually happens when a building comes down. They rely on your ignorance of these things to make you think that it was done with explosives.

Can you provide me with the details of your claims. I would like to agree with you, but I don't know what the deatils you base this on are. Please explain...

It must be pretty hard to swallow. You haven't managed to do it yet. Fact is the conspiracy theories go against physics, video evidence, and what actually happens when a building comes down. They rely on your ignorance of these things to make you think that it was done with explosives.

And I can say the government is relying on your ignorance to not question it.

It must be pretty hard to swallow. You haven't managed to do it yet. Fact is the conspiracy theories go against physics, video evidence, and what actually happens when a building comes down. They rely on your ignorance of these things to make you think that it was done with explosives.

he never said there was a bomb or any of that. he said that the whole "fly the airplanes into the buildings" is a conspiracy itself. The terrorists planned this attack for a long time. There were many people involved in it. That makes it a conspiracy. And this one actually happened. There was no JFK conspiracy. There was probably not a conspiracy in Roswell, either. I'm a realist. I see what the video evidence tells me and decide on the most probable cause. 9/11 was not a missile attack. It wasnt a bombing. Whether or not there was any American involvement, i dont know. i havent really looked into it. but what i do know is that those terrorists got on those planes that morning. They got into cockpit. They killed the pilots. And then they flew those planes into the WTC and the Pentagon. That was a conspiracy. But its not so large as many people would have you think.

And I can say the government is relying on your ignorance to not question it.

The government has not said it is not to be questioned. Many independant structural engineers have questioned and studied it in depth. You don't see this in the mass media because they agree. They satisfied their own sense of understanding through their own expertise. What you see in print and film are people who disagree, that is what sells.

Can you provide me with the details of your claims. I would like to agree with you, but I don't know what the deatils you base this on are. Please explain...
Proof that the conspiracy theories saying that the WTC was brought down by explosives rather than aircraft are wrong is found in the following thread. You'll have to search through the thread, I don't feel like doing that much research again.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=467914&highlight=anneal

And I can say the government is relying on your ignorance to not question it.
Easy to say until you realize that I base my opinion on the opinions of independent physicists and engineers, observation of the videos, and my personal analysis of how likely it would be that government agents could plant enough explosives to bring the buildings down without being observed.

Jewish Involvement??????
do you know haow stupid that sounds!!!

honestly, Im a Jew. and Ive been around the Jewish community alot. and I have one question:

Why the crap would the jews even care?
we are too caught up in drinking Manichevitz wine, and giving circumsisions, to even think about knocking over buildings and planing world domination.

Just because we rule the media, dosnt mean we're power hungry terrosists.

that has to be the STUPIDEST thing I ever heard

Jewish Involvement??????
do you know haow stupid that sounds!!!

honestly, Im a Jew. and Ive been around the Jewish community alot. and I have one question:

Why the crap would the jews even care?
we are too caught up in drinking Manichevitz wine, and giving circumsisions, to even think about knocking over buildings and planing world domination.

Just because we rule the media, dosnt mean we're power hungry terrosists.

that has to be the STUPIDEST thing I ever heard
Maybe Fangmania is a Nazi.:confused:

Take a deep breath.... And move on. Ignore stupid cospiracy theories: they're stupid.

My sentiments exactly.

I'd like to take that advice on, but unfortunately I can't. I am at university here in Australia, and there are a lot of people (supposedly educated) who really buy into these theories. I don't like my only response to them being to take a deep breath and move on. I want to be able to rebut their arguments convincingly. Hence, the request…

One of said people also concluded that the massive 2004 Tsunami was caused by the US lighting off an underwater atomic bomb in an effort to rid the world of Muslim people, or something to that effect.

Proof that the conspiracy theories saying that the WTC was brought down by explosives rather than aircraft are wrong is found in the following thread. You'll have to search through the thread, I don't feel like doing that much research again.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=467914&highlight=anneal


Thanks dude, that's the sort of thing I'm looking for.

I haven't got the time to read thru it all now, but it is a start in the right direction. Some counter-claims can be found at this site:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

New Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus Cathedra
Jewish Involvement??????
do you know haow stupid that sounds!!!

honestly, Im a Jew. and Ive been around the Jewish community alot. and I have one question:

Why the crap would the jews even care?
we are too caught up in drinking Manichevitz wine, and giving circumsisions, to even think about knocking over buildings and planing world domination.

Just because we rule the media, dosnt mean we're power hungry terrosists.

that has to be the STUPIDEST thing I ever heard
Maybe Fangmania is a Nazi.

Maybe Fangmania is a Nazi.:confused:

I never actually made the claim. Can you read??? I said it was on a documentary, and the documentary went to a lot of trouble to provide little evidence of a counter claim.

i havent seen these films.

this is the reason why there was no US government or jewish conspiracy invovled in 9/11:

it would require the complete cooperation of thousands of patriotic american citizens. thousands of men and women who wouldnt feel guilty, who wouldnt boil with anger, who wouldnt get drunk at the bar and brag, who wouldnt tell their closest family members.

this is simply not possible.

consider for a moment the (somewhat) legal program to keep track of american phone records. nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to give you screaming nightmares, nothing to weep over as you read the stories about victims in the newspaper. how long was it kept secret?

do you really believe that NO ONE of a the few thousand needed to make it work would crack?

i havent seen these films.

this is the reason why there was no US government or jewish conspiracy invovled in 9/11:

it would require the complete cooperation of thousands of patriotic american citizens. thousands of men and women who wouldnt feel guilty, who wouldnt boil with anger, who wouldnt get drunk at the bar and brag, who wouldnt tell their closest family members.

this is simply not possible.

consider for a moment the (somewhat) legal program to keep track of american phone records. nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to give you screaming nightmares, nothing to weep over as you read the stories about victims in the newspaper. how long was it kept secret?

do you really believe that NO ONE of a the few thousand needed to make it world would crack?


And that is the argument I generally use. It is the most logical thought process to follow. It is just when people start asking me to explain things relating to the shapes of the holes made by the plane crashing into the pentagon, etc, where I'd like to be able to enlighten them. I have been provided a decent link, with I will familiarise myself with, and be able to use to explain the alternative argument to the CT at my university. Cheers all....

It must be pretty hard to swallow. You haven't managed to do it yet. Fact is the conspiracy theories go against physics, video evidence, and what actually happens when a building comes down. They rely on your ignorance of these things to make you think that it was done with explosives.
You're absolutely right hun, the official conspiracy theory goes against the laws of physics, and video evidence.

You're absolutely right hun, the official conspiracy theory goes against the laws of physics, and video evidence.
Hun? I'm not a member of that particular tribe. I'm of Roman descent.

Oh, and why don't you check the evidence before posting. Right now you're only displaying your ignorance.

You're absolutely right hun, the official conspiracy theory goes against the laws of physics, and video evidence.

I've seen the video footage that shows the plane with apparantly an attachment on the bottom of it.

My question is, if the theories wish to prove that there is something there, surely they can enhance the quality of the picture and focus more clealry on the object, rather than giving very inconclusive, pixelated images that prove very little.

Hun? I'm not a member of that particular tribe. I'm of Roman descent.

Oh, and why don't you check the evidence before posting. Right now you're only displaying your ignorance.

He was referring to Hun Land, who left a post earlier.

I've seen the video footage that shows the plane with apparantly an attachment on the bottom of it.

My question is, if the theories wish to prove that there is something there, surely they can enhance the quality of the picture and focus more clealry on the object, rather than giving very inconclusive, pixelated images that prove very little.

Yeah I can't say I recall ever seeing anything with an attachment on the bottom in any of the videos that were played and played and played again that day and more than likely its just an angle shot with shading that makes it look like an "attachment."

These theories are made up by 40 year old virgins who still live in their parent's basement, work part-time at Blockbuster, and still haven't gotten through puberty yet.

i think she was actually refering to the term of endearment... honey. shortened to hun :p

I believe that switch-blade wielding sociepothic bunnies are to blame.

Maybe Fangmania is a Nazi.
I never actually made the claim. Can you read??? I said it was on a documentary, and the documentary went to a lot of trouble to provide little evidence of a counter claim.
yah, but this isn't exactly a denial either...

I've seen the video footage that shows the plane with apparantly an attachment on the bottom of it.

My question is, if the theories wish to prove that there is something there, surely they can enhance the quality of the picture and focus more clealry on the object, rather than giving very inconclusive, pixelated images that prove very little.
First of all, the "pod" observation is crap and every respectable scholar and documentary maker has ignored it because there's little to no evidence to support the "pod" observation.

A plane didn't hit the pentagon, and if it did the FBI/DoD/Bush administration wanted to DEBUNK EVERY DISSENTING IDEA, they would simply released ONE OF THE VERY MANY videos they have of what really hit the pentagon, if in fact it was a 757.
Do you agree with that atleast? It would be incredibly easy and we wouldn't be discussing it if the evidence was there.

The director of the FBI came on record and said there is no physical evidence linking the "hijackers" to 9/11.
Rice said back in 2002 that they would release the real evidence linking Usama to 9/11 in "due time", guess what, it's 2006 and still no "evidence".

He was referring to Hun Land, who left a post earlier.
No, I was refering to him. I don't know what country he's in, but "hun" it short for "honey" which is a casual greeting to a close one.

I believe that switch-blade wielding sociepothic bunnies are to blame.

Damn them!

He was referring to Hun Land, who left a post earlier.
My bad.

No, I was refering to him. I don't know what country he's in, but "hun" it short for "honey" which is a casual greeting to a close one.
Then it's spelled Hon. Hun is a barbarian tribe. It's also a prep school in Princeton who's gymnasium my old martial arts school used to rent to host seminars by Guro Dan Inosanto.

Then it's spelled Hon. Hun is a barbarian tribe. It's also a prep school in Princeton who's gymnasium my old martial arts school used to rent to host seminars by Guro Dan Inosanto.
Technically neither "hon" nor "hun" is correct, and "Hon." is short for Honorable.
It's a figure of speech.

Technically neither "hon" nor "hun" is correct, and "Hon." is short for Honorable.
It's a figure of speech.
Still, I have no problem with being refered to as the honorable Drunk Commies Deleted.

Still, I have no problem with being refered to as the honorable Drunk Commies Deleted.

Another definition -

Hun: offensive terms for a person of German descent.

was she the nutbar that stood infront of a bulldozer ???


Tell that to Rachel Corrie

A plane didn't hit the pentagon, and if it did the FBI/DoD/Bush administration wanted to DEBUNK EVERY DISSENTING IDEA, they would simply released ONE OF THE VERY MANY videos they have of what really hit the pentagon, if in fact it was a 757.
Do you agree with that atleast? It would be incredibly easy and we wouldn't be discussing it if the evidence was there.

i disagree. A plane did hit the pentagon. There were actual still shots from a parking lot camera that shows a plane hitting it... i'm too lazy to look it up, but it's out there.

With exception of Superstar and the Prophet non were national bans only local yahoo's "protecting the community" Supertar (a movie done with Barbie dolls) has ben blocked from commercial display due to unauthirised used of copywritten material, but if you look hard (google) you can down load it. The Prophet ??? with movie by that title are you refering to, there have been many?

But to my knowledge no movie has been banned in the whole of the US.

snip

3. I said “(apparantly banned in America)”. I didn’t even name the movie, so are you sure it was not banned. How can these movies have been banned in America then:
• 1908: The James Boys in Missouri and Night Riders, banned in Chicago
• 1915: The Birth of a Nation banned in several American cities.
• 1926: The Crimson Kimono, based on a real-life Chicago murder case and political scandal, banned in Chicago.
• 1928: The Racket banned in Chicago.
• 1931: Frankenstein banned in Kansas.
• 1932: Freaks banned in Cleveland.
• 1967: Titicut Follies, distribution blocked by legal order, 1967-1992.
• 1987: Superstar: The Karen Carpenter Story, banned by court order
• 2002: The Profit, legal injunction preventing exhibition: April 2002-present
4. I never once said conspiracy theorists were stupid. I was merely asking someone to present the alternative argument. It seems you are the zealot, with your excesses in view. I am merely looking to understand both sides of the argument so that there can be dialogue.

I don't think calling people trolls and tools helps. If you are strong enough in your beliefs, petty name calling and posturing surely only serves to weaken your stance???

was she the nutbar that stood infront of a bulldozer ???
yes.

With exception of Superstar and the Prophet non were national bans only local yahoo's "protecting the community" Supertar (a movie done with Barbie dolls) has ben blocked from commercial display due to unauthirised used of copywritten material, but if you look hard (google) you can down load it. The Prophet ??? with movie by that title are you refering to, there have been many?

But to my knowledge no movie has been banned in the whole of the US.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277255/

The Profit, not prophet.

Aside from the Popular Mechanics throrugh debunk of the claims made in Loose Change, the really bad narration which makes the whole thing sound like a college project, the lack of any concrete evidence of the continued existence of any of the 19 hijackers as the film alleges...

Look, the only one I can really lay into is the explosives notion of WTC 1 & 2. They stop the film during the collapse and spotlight little puffs of debris and air and claim that these are explosive "squibs" that signify a chain of explosives like those used in controlled demolitions. They then warp the laws of physics to claim that the building couldn't come down that fast or that the temperature wasn't hot enough to melt structural steel.

They aren't squibs, they're the air being compressed and shoved out windows or cracks in the walls by the pancaking floors falling through the space between themselves. The steel didn't need to melt, just weaken enough to fall off the short steel ledges connecting each flooe to the outer exoskeleton of the building. Wekend floors let go and fell on other weakened floors and biult up enough momentum to take out slightly less weakened floors below the impact/fire site, which in turn weighed enough to take out even unweakened floors far enough away from the impact to have not been affected by fire (fire which spread from descending jet fuel already lit by the initial explosion. The pancaking process didn't happen in ten seconds. Fire and rescue team communication devices picked up the slamming moise of falling floors many seconds prior to the outward collapse. The empty, unspported shell fell as fast as gravity could accelerate it.

I'll admit it, I was suckered by some of the claims in the video UNTIL I SEARCHED FOR COUNTER CLAIMS. To the original poster, guess where I DIDN'T start or even think of searching? NationStates General Forum. Why the flying intercourse would I look HERE for stuff like that? I come here to watch social entropy in action, not for facts. I may get links to facts here, but little more than opinions, with the usual level of enlightenment behind them -- variable according to the poster.

Please. Find something else to occupy your time. You live in Australia, for fuck's sake. SURELY there's something better to do.

Please. Find something else to occupy your time. You live in Australia, for fuck's sake. SURELY there's something better to do.
Indeed, he should be worried about his own fascist government censoring and banning everything and imposing national ID cards in the name of 'terrorism'.

P.S. The fact that you actually took that PM "debunking" article seriously says a lot about you.
Ignore the fact that it was written by MICHAEL CHERTOFF'S FUCKING BROTHER, it debunks nothing except the easiet and most wacky strawman theories by the aluminum hat folk, and not the respected scholars who actually care about their country.

do you really believe that NO ONE of a the few thousand needed to make it work would crack?

If one were to crack, they would either be killed or discredited.

Because the clear images show that the "attachment" is just the fusalage at a odd angle and not a "msytery device" and that doesn't sell books or videos and where's the fun in that?


I've seen the video footage that shows the plane with apparantly an attachment on the bottom of it.

My question is, if the theories wish to prove that there is something there, surely they can enhance the quality of the picture and focus more clealry on the object, rather than giving very inconclusive, pixelated images that prove very little.

Oh and can someone explain the 5 dancing Israelis?

ok didn't her damn parents tell her not to play infront of construction equipment???

Three words for her


DEE DEE DEE


yes.

Oh and can someone explain the 5 dancing Israelis?
myth? also.. that fang fella still hasn't denied being a nazi.

If one were to crack, they would either be killed or discredited.
Yeah, because the government is just great at keeping secrets like this. They probably killed everyone in the twin towers several nights in a row in order to plant the explosives and cover their tracks so the day shift wouldn't notice anything. Then they hid the bodies in broom closets and pretended those people died in the collapse.

First of all, Loose Change is not "c-grade".
Second, it has nothing to do with "jewish involvement".
Third, no video is "banned" in america, we have this thing called the 1ST AMENDMENT which grants us FREE SPEECH, even if it's anti-government, or suggests american involvement in the events of 9/11.

One thing is for sure, the official US government story to 9/11 IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY, so the next time you trolls talk about how stupid "conspiracy theorists" are, look in the goddamn mirror you zealot.

By the way, good luck on finding any real "evidence" to contradict the evidence presented in documentaries like Loose Change and Martial Law 9/11.
The evidence supporting government involvement, and the evidence contradicting the official conspiracy theory are just too plentiful to ignore.
I'm the most pro-american patriot I know, the idiots who support the desecration of the constitution and buy into every government spoodfed propagandistic conspiracy theory are the real "anti-americans".

Edit 2: Many trolls and tools are going to flame me, call me names, and try to offend or discredit me, but I don't give a shit because the truth is a hard swallow.


Calm down, put more foil on your hat and try to articulate some of the conspiracies which youve bought into.

I met his old man once aloooong time ago in the Philippines.


Then it's spelled Hon. Hun is a barbarian tribe. It's also a prep school in Princeton who's gymnasium my old martial arts school used to rent to host seminars by Guro Dan Inosanto.

Indeed, he should be worried about his own fascist government censoring and banning everything and imposing national ID cards in the name of 'terrorism'.

P.S. The fact that you actually took that PM "debunking" article seriously says a lot about you.
Ignore the fact that it was written by MICHAEL CHERTOFF'S FUCKING BROTHER, it debunks nothing except the easiet and most wacky strawman theories by the aluminum hat folk, and not the respected scholars who actually care about their country.
Whoa, relax there, Cochise -- if any respectable physicist could make the case that Loose Change makes, they would. You simply can't censor everyone. So this means that those physicicts looking for a bit of sensationalistic coverage will try, but nobody buys it. Nice try.

ok didn't her damn parents tell her not to play infront of construction equipment???

Three words for her


DEE DEE DEE
meh, she was stupid to think that she wouldn't be killed just because she was american. Did you read one of her emails?

Pretty naive girl if you ask me.

myth? also.. that fang fella still hasn't denied being a nazi.

maybe... (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html)

Iran's president said it best:

September eleven was not a simple operation. Could it be planned and executed without coordination with intelligence and security services – or their extensive infiltration? Of course this is just an educated guess. Why have the various aspects of the attacks been kept secret? Why are we not told who botched their responsibilities? And, why aren’t those responsible and the guilty parties identified and put on trial?

I refuse to believe people who are depicted as "living in caves" capable of planning such an elaborate scheme and executing it flawlessly without any sign of resistance.

I met his old man once aloooong time ago in the Philippines.
Cool! Did he teach martial arts as well?

maybe... (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html)

Iran's president said it best:



I refuse to believe people who are depicted as "living in caves" capable of planning such an elaborate scheme and executing it flawlessly without any sign of resistance.
Why not? The fact is that airline crews before 9/11 were instructed to comply with hijackers and make sure the passengers remained calm and cooperated. This is because hijackers in the past let the hostages live and sometimes carried bombs in case the passengers or crew resisted. Any idiot with enough cash a plane ticket and a concealed weapon could have pulled it off.

If you call getting you ass beat for 40minutes with an Escrima stick a lesson.

Cool! Did he teach martial arts as well?

I refuse to believe people who are depicted as "living in caves" capable of planning such an elaborate scheme and executing it flawlessly without any sign of resistance.

So in other words, you believe that where a person lives is an indication of his intelligence, and that Muslims are too barbaric so it could only have been American Genius that cooked up a plan like "crash a plane into a building."

Basically, the conspiracy argument from American hubris bordering on racism.

Why not? The fact is that airline crews before 9/11 were instructed to comply with hijackers and make sure the passengers remained calm and cooperated. This is because hijackers in the past let the hostages live and sometimes carried bombs in case the passengers or crew resisted. Any idiot with enough cash a plane ticket and a concealed weapon could have pulled it off.

Except cash and a plane ticket doesnt magically give you knowledge on how to fly a plane.

The operation required more than cash and money. It required infiltration, reconnaisance, intelligence, communications, and knowledge on not just how to fly a commercial airliner but how to navigate one. A simple terrorist group does not seem like a group coordinated enough to launch such a large scale attack. Planting a bomb in the basement of the WTC, ok I can see that. This, no way.

Call me anti-semitic, but I have a feeling Israel has a major hand in it.

So in other words, you believe that where a person lives is an indication of his intelligence, and that Muslims are too barbaric so it could only have been American Genius that cooked up a plan like "crash a plane into a building."

Basically, the conspiracy argument from American hubris bordering on racism.

Hey asshole, first of all its the american media and the government that basically send the signal "brown-skinned people are going to kill you."

Second, I said people DEPICTED as living in caves, DEPICTED by said media and government.

Go fuck yourself.

Hey asshole, first of all its the american media and the government that basically send the signal "brown-skinned people are going to kill you."

Second, I said people DEPICTED as living in caves, DEPICTED by said media and government.

Go fuck yourself.

Oh OK. So because they are DEPICTED as living in caves, they are too barbaric to be able to come up with a genius plan like 9/11 apparently was? That makes even less sense.

Oh OK. So because they are DEPICTED as living in caves, they are too barbaric to be able to come up with a genius plan like 9/11 apparently was? That makes even less sense.

Well its either they are smarter than us or they live in caves, ask the media and the american government to clarify.

Until then shut the fuck up and stop bothering me.

http://www.jewsdidwtc.com/

Well its either they are smarter than us or they live in caves, ask the media and the american government to clarify.


They don't have to be smarter than us to plan 9/11, and living in a cave and being intelligent aren't mutually exclusive.


Until then shut the fuck up and stop bothering me.

Waaah. If you want to be left alone, go to your bedroom and listen to some emo music while you cut your arm and wish your parents would stop oppressing you.

Whoa, relax there, Cochise -- if any respectable physicist could make the case that Loose Change makes, they would. You simply can't censor everyone. So this means that those physicicts looking for a bit of sensationalistic coverage will try, but nobody buys it. Nice try.
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
K?

maybe... (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html)

Iran's president said it best:

I refuse to believe people who are depicted as "living in caves" capable of planning such an elaborate scheme and executing it flawlessly without any sign of resistance.
yes.... trust a conspiracy site. and Iran's president to boot.

If you call getting you ass beat for 40minutes with an Escrima stick a lesson.
Well, that might teach one a thing or two, like don't mess with the Inosantos.

to what end? To piss off the the ONLY freind they have???


Except cash and a plane ticket doesnt magically give you knowledge on how to fly a plane.

The operation required more than cash and money. It required infiltration, reconnaisance, intelligence, communications, and knowledge on not just how to fly a commercial airliner but how to navigate one. A simple terrorist group does not seem like a group coordinated enough to launch such a large scale attack. Planting a bomb in the basement of the WTC, ok I can see that. This, no way.

Call me anti-semitic, but I have a feeling Israel has a major hand in it.



Hey asshole, first of all its the american media and the government that basically send the signal "brown-skinned people are going to kill you."

Second, I said people DEPICTED as living in caves, DEPICTED by said media and government.

Go fuck yourself.

You guys are fucking idiots if you believe this.

Not a single structual engineer have come forward and said there were bombs. Not one. You can take Jeff King, an electric engineer, or a physics engineer, but when a structual engineer says "No, it's not possible", I rather take their opinion.

As for Loose Change, here is a good DEBUNK of the entire thing.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

Just remember Loose Change does not even approuch any respectable experts, any real witnesses, or uses similes as concrete evidence. They use news from American Free Press, known for white supremacists and anti-jewish news articles. Loose Change creates straw man arguments and gets the WRONG ENGINE on flight 77.

And today, the pentagon video will be released. To piss you off, here is a FOX NEWS link to it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195702,00.html

They also ban people from their boards questioning their theories. In person, who writes a webcomic I read, was one of them:

http://bloodknight.livejournal.com/

Idiots :upyours:

yes.... trust a conspiracy site. and Iran's president to boot.

I dont care what kind of site it is. At least it links to sources. But I guess any source that goes against what you are saying is just conspiracy.

They don't have to be smarter than us to plan 9/11, and living in a cave and being intelligent aren't mutually exclusive.

Whatever, I dont care, believe what you want. Me? I dont believe for one second that 9/11 was pulled off successfully without any government or military aid. As for which government/military, I'm still not sure of.

Except cash and a plane ticket doesnt magically give you knowledge on how to fly a plane.

The operation required more than cash and money. It required infiltration, reconnaisance, intelligence, communications, and knowledge on not just how to fly a commercial airliner but how to navigate one. A simple terrorist group does not seem like a group coordinated enough to launch such a large scale attack. Planting a bomb in the basement of the WTC, ok I can see that. This, no way.
Do you have any idea how easy it was to get flight training in the US? Basically if you wanted to become a pilot you came here to learn. All it takes is some cash and the ability to speak english. The coordination is simple too. Go on Orbits or some other site that lets you book your own flight, you can get the schedule for all flights leaving from your chosen airports that morning. You can even buy tickets on them.
Call me anti-semitic, but I have a feeling Israel has a major hand in it.
Yeah, they got so much out of it. For example, a number of Americans now want us to stop supporting Israel because they think if we do that the terrorists will leave us alone.


Hey asshole, first of all its the american media and the government that basically send the signal "brown-skinned people are going to kill you."

Second, I said people DEPICTED as living in caves, DEPICTED by said media and government.

Go fuck yourself.

You guys are fucking idiots if you believe this.

Not a single structual engineer have come forward and said there were bombs. Not one. You can take Jeff King, an electric engineer, or a physics engineer, but when a structual engineer says "No, it's not possible", I rather take their opinion.

As for Loose Change, here is a good DEBUNK of the entire thing.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

Just remember Loose Change does not even approuch any respectable experts, any real witnesses, or uses similes as concrete evidence. They use news from American Free Press, known for white supremacists and anti-jewish news articles. Loose Change creates straw man arguments and gets the WRONG ENGINE on flight 77.

And today, the pentagon video will be released. To piss you off, here is a FOX NEWS link to it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195702,00.html

They also ban people from their boards questioning their theories. In person, who writes a webcomic I read, was one of them:

http://bloodknight.livejournal.com/

Idiots :upyours:

Someone who actually believes the government created 9/11, answer.

Do you have any idea how easy it was to get flight training in the US? Basically if you wanted to become a pilot you came here to learn. All it takes is some cash and the ability to speak english. The coordination is simple too. Go on Orbits or some other site that lets you book your own flight, you can get the schedule for all flights leaving from your chosen airports that morning. You can even buy tickets on them. Yeah, they got so much out of it. For example, a number of Americans now want us to stop supporting Israel because they think if we do that the terrorists will leave us alone.

Plan another 9/11 for me if its so easy. And learning how to fly a commercial airliner requires alot of time and alot of knowledge. If you make a wrong move while turning you can snap the plane in half.

Oh and someone please explain to me how theres a video of the plane hitting the pentagon. Am I to believe that somehow a camera was pointing directly at the spot the pentagon was hit and recording without any prior knowledge of it?

Ignore the fact that it was written by MICHAEL CHERTOFF'S FUCKING BROTHER, it debunks nothing except the easiet and most wacky strawman theories by the aluminum hat folk, and not the respected scholars who actually care about their country.

Wrong again asshole.

They aren't brothers or cousins. What happened was Alex Jones called one of the mothers (forgot which one, the one who wrote the article), identified themselves as "Chris" and that he was a reporter, and asked the mother if they were cousins, she said "maybe they are, not sure", she didn't really know.

Besides, he was ONE of the NINE writers who wrote the article, plus they talked to 300 experts about this. NONE ONE OF THEM CAME FORWARD AND SAID THERE WAS SPINNING INVOLVED.

You lose the internet good sir.

Plan another 9/11 for me if its so easy. And learning how to fly a commercial airliner requires alot of time and alot of knowledge. If you make a wrong move while turning you can snap the plane in half.

Oh and someone please explain to me how theres a video of the plane hitting the pentagon. Am I to believe that somehow a camera was pointing directly at the spot the pentagon was hit and recording without any prior knowledge of it?

It's called...MORE THAN ONE CAMERA?

You think a military headquarters has just ONE camera? Also, do you think that the numerous witnesses there were under some of magic drug?

G'day all,

I was just watching a documentary on commercial television in Australia which briefly touched on some of the conspiracy theories covering Jewish involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

I have also seen a commercial television program, made by an American (apparantly banned in America) and shown on Austrlian TV which talks about reasons why the US government was involved in the attacks.

There's also a really c-grade google video called "loose change" which covers a lot of these theories.

Anyone seen it, or anything like it?

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good sources of information that attempt to counter or dispel these conspiracies???
after watching this lose change vid I am worried about the lack of documentation, I would like to know:
1. What proof is there that this plan existed
2. How they got the Doc.
3. Why I can't read it
4. Starting when have top secret doc. been black with white ink to make them more scary.

It's called...MORE THAN ONE CAMERA?

You think a military headquarters has just ONE camera? Also, do you think that the numerous witnesses there were under some of magic drug?

What in the holy hell are you talking about?

What in the holy hell are you talking about?

They have other footages besides that five frames they released. They are going to release more videos today since the trial is done and over with.

Besides, why aren't you looking at the debunk link on the joke known as Loose Change?

well, instalations have secrurity cameras, to keep them secure. Are you saying that the pentagon musnt have secrurity cameras, covering all areas.

They have other footages besides that five frames they released. They are going to release more videos today since the trial is done and over with.

Besides, why aren't you looking at the debunk link on the joke known as Loose Change?

I dont give a fuck about loose change and I have never watched it before. All I know is 5 Israelis dressed as palestinians who were later confirmed as Mossad agents knew these attacks were going to occur, filmed them, and acted content. I want to know what they had to do with it.

I also want to know why our government had all the information necessary before 9/11 to stop it and didnt.

I dont care about the physics, I dont care about the conspiracy, I just want to know who did this, because it is getting seemingly obvious that it was not Al-Qaeda or Bin-Laden.

Plan another 9/11 for me if its so easy. And learning how to fly a commercial airliner requires alot of time and alot of knowledge. If you make a wrong move while turning you can snap the plane in half.

Oh and someone please explain to me how theres a video of the plane hitting the pentagon. Am I to believe that somehow a camera was pointing directly at the spot the pentagon was hit and recording without any prior knowledge of it?
1) Much more difficult now. They check you a bit more thoroughly, they confiscate items like box cutters and even nail clippers now.

2) Crew are no longer told to cooperate with hijackers and keep passengers calm.

3) Passengers are now more likely to stomp a hijacker to death rather than comply.

4) Snap the plane in half? You're clearly not a pilot. I'm told you can actually roll one of those bitches and it'll hold together. The airlines tend to frown on that though. One of my friends is a licensed pilot, but not for the big passenger aircraft. He has a twin engine license. Still he works for US airways (not as a pilot) and has in the past been allowed to sit in the cockpit and fly the plane for a bit under pilot's supervision. These guys weren't doing anything complicated like taking off or landing. They were just steering into their target.

5) I'm sure that there are alot of cameras aimed at the pentagon. It's not the type of place where people are allowed to show up and hang out anytime they want.

Hey asshole, first of all its the american media and the government that basically send the signal "brown-skinned people are going to kill you."

Second, I said people DEPICTED as living in caves, DEPICTED by said media and government.

Go fuck yourself.
Be nice. Now.

I dont give a fuck about loose change and I have never watched it before. All I know is 5 Israelis dressed as palestinians who were later confirmed as Mossad agents knew these attacks were going to occur, filmed them, and acted content. I want to know what they had to do with it.

I also want to know why our government had all the information necessary before 9/11 to stop it and didnt.

I dont care about the physics, I dont care about the conspiracy, I just want to know who did this, because it is getting seemingly obvious that it was not Al-Qaeda or Bin-Laden.

What proof do you have that they have prior knowledge? And be specific, if it was something like "Terrorist attack coming soon", they doesn't expalin shit.

Remember Bin Laden confessed the attacks, and anyone who plays "It's a fake" card, I'll have some evidence showing you otherwise.

For conspiracy theories like "the government did it" to be true, it would have to mean that the US government were actually long term thinkers (after all, the World Trade Center damage had a negative effect on the economy and I don't think there's been any economic benefit from invading Iraq yet).

However, if they were long-term thinkers, they would've already taken measures to find alternatives to oil, since the longer you leave it, the harder you're hit when the cost of oil extraction shoots up.

For conspiracy theories like "the government did it" to be true, it would have to mean that the US government were actually long term thinkers (after all, the World Trade Center damage had a negative effect on the economy and I don't think there's been any economic benefit from invading Iraq yet).

However, if they were long-term thinkers, they would've already taken measures to find alternatives to oil, since the longer you leave it, the harder you're hit when the cost of oil extraction shoots up.

Let's not forgot Canada would have to be involved since NORAD is a work between Canada and the States.

OMG teh US Government did 9/11!newton was in league withh teh terrorists! and t3h jews are r00ling th WRLD in league wirh the freemasons and the Illuminati! and candaianz killed jesus!!1.

4) Snap the plane in half? You're clearly not a pilot. I'm told you can actually roll one of those bitches and it'll hold together.

Uh, by who?

The airlines tend to frown on that though. One of my friends is a licensed pilot, but not for the big passenger aircraft. He has a twin engine license. Still he works for US airways (not as a pilot) and has in the past been allowed to sit in the cockpit and fly the plane for a bit under pilot's supervision. These guys weren't doing anything complicated like taking off or landing. They were just steering into their target.

http://www.willthomas.net/911/911_Commission_Hearing.htm
Thats the flight patterns of the planes. Now the question isnt just the ability to fly the plane, its the ability to navigate, which these supposed hijackers did not have.

Lets start from the beginning. In order to have complete knowledge of flying commercial airliners, it takes alot of time and dedication. These hijackers were not even good at flying a Cessna yet somehow take huge commercial airliners and fly them no problem.

This is what was said by flight trainers about the hijackers:
Mohammed Atta: "His attention span was zero."
Khalid Al-Mihdhar: "We didn't kick him out, but he didn't live up to our standards."
Marwan Al-Shehhi: “He was dropped because of his limited English and incompetence at the controls.”
Salem Al-Hazmi: "We advised him to quit after two lessons.”
Hani Hanjour: "His English was horrible, and his mechanical skills were even worse. It was like he had hardly even ever driven a car. I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.”


A plane is not extremely hard to fly around the open sky, but if the intent is to execute any kind of a maneuver with even the least bit of precision, the task immediately becomes quite daunting. And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 mph 30,000 feet above the ground, the challenges become virtually impossible for any untrained pilot. Especially someone who cant pilot a Cessna.

n the case of a Boeing 757 or 767, the pilot would be faced with an EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System) panel comprised of six large multi-mode LCDs interspersed with clusters of assorted “hard” instruments. These displays process the raw aircraft system and flight data into an integrated picture of the aircraft situation, position and progress, not only in horizontal and vertical dimensions, but also with regard to time and speed as well. When flying “blind”, I.e., with no ground reference cues, it takes a highly skilled pilot to interpret, and then apply, this data intelligently. If one cannot translate this information quickly, precisely and accurately (and it takes an instrument-rated pilot to do so), one would have ZERO SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. I.e., the pilot wouldn’t have a clue where s/he was in relation to the earth. Flight under such conditions is referred to as “IFR”, or Instrument Flight Rules.

And IFR Rule #1: Never take your eyes off your instruments, because that’s all you have!

The corollary to Rule #1: If you can’t read the instruments in a quick, smooth, disciplined, scan, you’re as good as dead. Accident records from around the world are replete with reports of any number of good pilots — I.e., professional instrument-rated pilots — who ‘bought the farm’ because they ‘lost it’ while flying in IFR conditions.

I dont think you can get behind the wheel in a plane already in flight and miraculously find out how to navigate to your target. A novice would be lucky to even find the city.

5) I'm sure that there are alot of cameras aimed at the pentagon. It's not the type of place where people are allowed to show up and hang out anytime they want.

Well I need to see the tape first. I have seen stills put together as a gif and saw no plane (or any object whatsoever), just an explosion.

NOW, explain:
# There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists making plane reservations. If they did, there would be a “record locator,” complete with details.
# There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists buying or using tickets. (IDs required)
# There is no hard-copy of a single printed ticket ‘copy.’
# There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists on any of the passenger manifests, with all legitimate passengers being accounted for.
# There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists in the autopsies.
# There is not so much as a suggestion that the purported 9-11 terrorists had the requisite piloting skills—rather, the contrary.
# There is no documentation (per the FBI [Mueller]) to link the purported 9-11 terrorists to the events of the day.
# At least seven of the purported 9-11 terrorists are known to still be alive in the Middle East—with no questions being asked.

I've got 2 questions for you. The 1st one I've already asked but you ignored.
1) WHY would Isreal risk pissing off the ONLY freind it has?
2) Have ever flown or at least played a good flight sim on a high end computer?
The flights were from BOSTON its due SE to NYC. Flight sims teach this kind of navigation. That and they were trained pilots or at least trained enough. I was no great shakes flying. If the landed the aircraft different story. The higher tech aircraft are EASIER to fly than a Cessna 172 /152 because all the labor is done electronically.

Oh and when commercial aircraft are rated for "air worthiness" they are routinly put through manuvers no sane commercial pilot would attempt
like loops and rolls.

Air force one is a HUGE 747 but still capable of evasive manuvering when necessary.



Uh, by who?



http://www.willthomas.net/911/911_Commission_Hearing.htm
Thats the flight patterns of the planes. Now the question isnt just the ability to fly the plane, its the ability to navigate, which these supposed hijackers did not have.

Lets start from the beginning. In order to have complete knowledge of flying commercial airliners, it takes alot of time and dedication. These hijackers were not even good at flying a Cessna yet somehow take huge commercial airliners and fly them no problem.

This is what was said by flight trainers about the hijackers:
Mohammed Atta: "His attention span was zero."
Khalid Al-Mihdhar: "We didn't kick him out, but he didn't live up to our standards."
Marwan Al-Shehhi: “He was dropped because of his limited English and incompetence at the controls.”
Salem Al-Hazmi: "We advised him to quit after two lessons.”
Hani Hanjour: "His English was horrible, and his mechanical skills were even worse. It was like he had hardly even ever driven a car. I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.”


A plane is not extremely hard to fly around the open sky, but if the intent is to execute any kind of a maneuver with even the least bit of precision, the task immediately becomes quite daunting. And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 mph 30,000 feet above the ground, the challenges become virtually impossible for any untrained pilot. Especially someone who cant pilot a Cessna.



I dont think you can get behind the wheel in a plane already in flight and miraculously find out how to navigate to your target. A novice would be lucky to even find the city.



Well I need to see the tape first. I have seen stills put together as a gif and saw no plane (or any object whatsoever), just an explosion.

NOW, explain:
# There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists making plane reservations. If they did, there would be a “record locator,” complete with details.
# There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists buying or using tickets. (IDs required)
# There is no hard-copy of a single printed ticket ‘copy.’
# There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists on any of the passenger manifests, with all legitimate passengers being accounted for.
# There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists in the autopsies.
# There is not so much as a suggestion that the purported 9-11 terrorists had the requisite piloting skills—rather, the contrary.
# There is no documentation (per the FBI [Mueller]) to link the purported 9-11 terrorists to the events of the day.
# At least seven of the purported 9-11 terrorists are known to still be alive in the Middle East—with no questions being asked (See links below).

This is what was said by flight trainers about the hijackers:
Mohammed Atta: "His attention span was zero."
Khalid Al-Mihdhar: "We didn't kick him out, but he didn't live up to our standards."
Marwan Al-Shehhi: “He was dropped because of his limited English and incompetence at the controls.”
Salem Al-Hazmi: "We advised him to quit after two lessons.”
Hani Hanjour: "His English was horrible, and his mechanical skills were even worse. It was like he had hardly even ever driven a car. I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.”


From the Greenbelt (Maryland) Gazette:

The standard evaluation consists of one-to-one-and-a-half-hour flights east over the Chesapeake Bay area. Hanjour paid $400 cash and provided a valid pilot's license from Arizona, Bernard said. He failed because he showed problems landing the airplane and the flight instructor had to help him, Bernard said. But Hanjour's problems were nothing unusual, Bernard said. "There's no doubt in my mind that once (Flight 77) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it."


Carry on..


Well I need to see the tape first. I have seen stills put together as a gif and saw no plane (or any object whatsoever), just an explosion.


Yet the witnesses who said they saw a plane were just "paid" by the government, right?


# At least seven of the purported 9-11 terrorists are known to still be alive in the Middle East—with no questions being asked.


Stop taking articles from 2001 as evidence. Most of the them were mistaken identification, but nonetheless they were all dead.

http://911myths.com/html/waleed_al-shehri_still_alive.html

http://911myths.com/html/abdulaziz_al_omari_still_alive.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/11/02/attack/main316806.shtml

http://www.insna.org/Connections-Web/Volume24-3/Valdis.Krebs.web.pdf

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/main/essaykhalidandnawaf.html

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/main/essaykhalidandnawaf.html

http://911myths.com/html/said_al-ghamdi_alive.html

http://911myths.com/html/ahmed_al-nami_still_alive.html

http://911myths.com/html/mohammed_atta_alive.html

Uh, by who?

By my friend, the pilot who works for US airways. Who told you that you could snap that plane in half as easily as you originally said?

http://www.willthomas.net/911/911_Commission_Hearing.htm
Thats the flight patterns of the planes. Now the question isnt just the ability to fly the plane, its the ability to navigate, which these supposed hijackers did not have.

Lets start from the beginning. In order to have complete knowledge of flying commercial airliners, it takes alot of time and dedication. These hijackers were not even good at flying a Cessna yet somehow take huge commercial airliners and fly them no problem.

This is what was said by flight trainers about the hijackers:
Mohammed Atta: "His attention span was zero."
Khalid Al-Mihdhar: "We didn't kick him out, but he didn't live up to our standards."
Marwan Al-Shehhi: “He was dropped because of his limited English and incompetence at the controls.”
Salem Al-Hazmi: "We advised him to quit after two lessons.”
Hani Hanjour: "His English was horrible, and his mechanical skills were even worse. It was like he had hardly even ever driven a car. I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.”


A plane is not extremely hard to fly around the open sky, but if the intent is to execute any kind of a maneuver with even the least bit of precision, the task immediately becomes quite daunting. And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 mph 30,000 feet above the ground, the challenges become virtually impossible for any untrained pilot. Especially someone who cant pilot a Cessna.
Um, what kind of maneuver? Steering straight into an obstacle? It's not like they were doing aerobatics. Any idiot can steer a plane into a target that's wider than the plane's wingspan. On what are you basing your estimation of the complexity of hitting a skyscraper with a plane?


I dont think you can get behind the wheel in a plane already in flight and miraculously find out how to navigate to your target. A novice would be lucky to even find the city.
There were 19 hijackers. There were four planes hijacked. Only four hijackers had to have any ability to fly whatsoever. Your post shows five of the 19 hijackers got bad reviews from their flight instructors. You haven't shown that they lacked the talent to pilot a plane that's already in the air into a skyscraper. You also haven't shown that the other hijackers were equally bad pilots.


Well I need to see the tape first. I have seen stills put together as a gif and saw no plane (or any object whatsoever), just an explosion.

NOW, explain:
# There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists making plane reservations. If they did, there would be a “record locator,” complete with details.
# There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists buying or using tickets. (IDs required)
# There is no hard-copy of a single printed ticket ‘copy.’
# There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists on any of the passenger manifests, with all legitimate passengers being accounted for.
# There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists in the autopsies.
# There is not so much as a suggestion that the purported 9-11 terrorists had the requisite piloting skills—rather, the contrary.
# There is no documentation (per the FBI [Mueller]) to link the purported 9-11 terrorists to the events of the day.
# At least seven of the purported 9-11 terrorists are known to still be alive in the Middle East—with no questions being asked.
So what? Maybe someone else made the reservations.

IDs weren't required prior to 9/11.

What exactly is that supposed to show? Are there computer records?

Since they didn't need IDs maybe they used fake names. Maybe you're just wrong.

Really? You mean corpses the guys in the cockpit of a plane slammed into a building at 500 Miles per hour then engulfed in flames weren't autopsied? Fuck, I'd be surprised if identifiable parts of them were found.

Says you. And you're hardly an expert. You think that they could have "snapped the plane in half"

What kind of documentation would you like? The passports recovered? Or did you want full confessions left behind at the terrorist's appartments?

They're not known to be alive, their IDs are known to be in use. A friend of mine uses his dead brother's ID because he's got alot of felonies on his record. It's a normal practice. ID theft is a great way to get legal visas and passports if you're a criminal or terrorist. Just because their IDs are in use doesn't show that they're alive.



You know, debating with 9/11 conspiracy fools is alot like debating with creationists. They have their articles of faith and no ammount of evidence will shake that faith. Kazus, seriously, if you're not as stupid as a creationist look at all the evidence. You'll see that 9/11 was an al qaeda operation, not a US government or Israeli operation. If you don't want to face facts, then quit posting on this issue. You're wasting everybody's time.

I've got 2 questions for you. The 1st one I've already asked but you ignored.
1) WHY would Isreal risk pissing off the ONLY freind it has?

First: Stop quoting afterward, it makes your posts confusing. Maybe thats why I didnt respond to you, becuase I didnt know you were responding to me at all.

Israel? Piss the US off? We are basically on our knees sucking their dick. We are on their puppet strings because, as an "ally", they serve as a foothold in the middle east, a crucial area. Oh and they have nukes.

2) Have ever flown or at least played a good flight sim on a high end computer?
The flights were from BOSTON its due SE to NYC. Flight sims teach this kind of navigation. That and they were trained pilots or at least trained enough. I was no great shakes flying. If the landed the aircraft different story.

I have 20 hours of flight time in a Cessna so I think I know a little bit about aviation.

http://www.willthomas.net/images/911/911-bases-flightpaths.gif

Those are the flightpaths. You dont just say "hey lets fly this way". If you are 30,000 feet in the air, your cockpit pretty much tells you nothing. You would have to navigate by instruments. If you cant even fly a Cessna, you cannot do this.

If you are over New York state, not knowing which direction you are even facing, theres no way to be sure you are travelling in the correct direction.

Um, what kind of maneuver? Steering straight into an obstacle? It's not like they were doing aerobatics. Any idiot can steer a plane into a target that's wider than the plane's wingspan. On what are you basing your estimation of the complexity of hitting a skyscraper with a plane?

God damn did you not read a single word I said?

Please enlighten me. How would you, an unexperienced pilot after hijacking a plane somewhere over the US, be able to navigate to your target city?

...Several of my colleagues and I have tried to simulate the ‘hijacker’s’ final approach maneuvers into the towers on our company 767 simulator. We tried repeated tight, steeply banked 180 turns at 500 mph followed by a fast rollout and lineup with a tall building. More than two-thirds of those who attempted the maneuver failed to make a ‘hit’. How these rookies who couldn’t fly a trainer pulled this off is beyond comprehension.

That is what a 757 pilot said about the incident. And in case you need the flightpaths AGAIN:
http://www.willthomas.net/images/911/911-bases-flightpaths.gif

Consider 2 things as well:

The final turn upward on the blue line (I cant read the flight number)
THE BILLIONS OF MILITARY BASES THAT THEY FLEW OVER WITHOUT ANYONE STOPPING THEM.

Yet the witnesses who said they saw a plane were just "paid" by the government, right?

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didnt deny the existence of a plane you fucking moron. Learn to read. I saw no plane from the stills and would like to see the full video, thats all I said.

First: Stop quoting afterward, it makes your posts confusing. Maybe thats why I didnt respond to you, becuase I didnt know you were responding to me at all.

Israel? Piss the US off? We are basically on our knees sucking their dick. We are on their puppet strings because, as an "ally", they serve as a foothold in the middle east, a crucial area. Oh and they have nukes.

No, we're really not. They rely on us for alot of their military hardware and for money and trade. Oh, and we gave them the nukes. They need us alot more than we need them.



I have 20 hours of flight time in a Cessna so I think I know a little bit about aviation.

http://www.willthomas.net/images/911/911-bases-flightpaths.gif

Those are the flightpaths. You dont just say "hey lets fly this way". If you are 30,000 feet in the air, your cockpit pretty much tells you nothing. You would have to navigate by instruments. If you cant even fly a Cessna, you cannot do this.

If you are over New York state, not knowing which direction you are even facing, theres no way to be sure you are travelling in the correct direction.

Funny how a pilot would think that you can't maneuver in a big commercial plane without "snapping it in half". A pilot should know better.

Funny how a pilot would think that you can't maneuver in a big commercial plane without "snapping it in half". A pilot should know better.

I said a wrong move during a turn could snap the plane in half. In other words, you cannot make these maneuvers NOR FLY LOW ENOUGH TO CRASH INTO THE PENTAGON if you have no idea how to fly a Cessna. Those sharp turns can easily overstress the aircraft if you dont know what you are doing.

Stop being jerkoffs and read.

NOW, explain:
# There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists making plane reservations. If they did, there would be a “record locator,” complete with details.
# There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists buying or using tickets. (IDs required)
# There is no hard-copy of a single printed ticket ‘copy.’
# There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists on any of the passenger manifests, with all legitimate passengers being accounted for.
# There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists in the autopsies.
# There is not so much as a suggestion that the purported 9-11 terrorists had the requisite piloting skills—rather, the contrary.
# There is no documentation (per the FBI [Mueller]) to link the purported 9-11 terrorists to the events of the day.
# At least seven of the purported 9-11 terrorists are known to still be alive in the Middle East—with no questions being asked.
i think you need to show some proof of these statements. the desk agent who checked mohammed atta in has a book out talking about how freaked out he was to realize that he had made sure that atta got on his flight to boston (if it was atta, i try not to pay too too much attention to any 9/11 stories)

I said a wrong move during a turn could snap the plane in half. In other words, you cannot make these maneuvers NOR FLY LOW ENOUGH TO CRASH INTO THE PENTAGON if you have no idea how to fly a Cessna. Those sharp turns can easily overstress the aircraft if you dont know what you are doing.

Stop being jerkoffs and read.
how about that fedex flight that was hijacked... admittedly it was a dc-10, but didn't they roll that thing?

God damn did you not read a single word I said? Yeah, I wasted my time reading that bullshit.


Please enlighten me. How would you, an unexperienced pilot after hijacking a plane somewhere over the US, be able to navigate to your target city?

Instrumentation in the cockpit.
... How these rookies who couldn’t fly a trainer pulled this off is beyond comprehension.
...Several of my colleagues and I have tried to simulate the ‘hijacker’s’ final approach maneuvers into the towers on our company 767 simulator. We tried repeated tight, steeply banked 180 turns at 500 mph followed by a fast rollout and lineup with a tall building. More than two-thirds of those who attempted the maneuver failed to make a ‘hit’. How these rookies who couldn’t fly a trainer pulled this off is beyond comprehension.
That is what a 757 pilot said about the incident. And in case you need the flightpaths AGAIN:
http://www.willthomas.net/images/911/911-bases-flightpaths.gif
Flightpaths mean nothing. They deviated from the flightpaths, remember? There was no plan of action to shoot down planes that deviate from their flightpaths.
Also how do we know that the terrorists used the same complex approach maneuvers as the pilot you quoted. Where did the quote come from anyway?



Stop putting words in my mouth. I didnt deny the existence of a plane you fucking moron. Learn to read. I saw no plane from the stills and would like to see the full video, thats all I said.

You put 225 true as your heading leaving Boston the avionics compinsate for wind etc. You end up in NYC. Then point the nose at the biggest building. They put novices in the 757 sim and they could do it imagine if you had some school.





First: Stop quoting afterward, it makes your posts confusing. Maybe thats why I didnt respond to you, becuase I didnt know you were responding to me at all.

Israel? Piss the US off? We are basically on our knees sucking their dick. We are on their puppet strings because, as an "ally", they serve as a foothold in the middle east, a crucial area. Oh and they have nukes.



I have 20 hours of flight time in a Cessna so I think I know a little bit about aviation.

http://www.willthomas.net/images/911/911-bases-flightpaths.gif

Those are the flightpaths. You dont just say "hey lets fly this way". If you are 30,000 feet in the air, your cockpit pretty much tells you nothing. You would have to navigate by instruments. If you cant even fly a Cessna, you cannot do this.

If you are over New York state, not knowing which direction you are even facing, theres no way to be sure you are travelling in the correct direction.

I said a wrong move during a turn could snap the plane in half. In other words, you cannot make these maneuvers NOR FLY LOW ENOUGH TO CRASH INTO THE PENTAGON if you have no idea how to fly a Cessna. Those sharp turns can easily overstress the aircraft if you dont know what you are doing.

Stop being jerkoffs and read.
Unfortunately, I am reading your bullshit. It's almost as if I've got nothing better to do.

Consider 2 things as well:

The final turn upward on the blue line (I cant read the flight number)
THE BILLIONS OF MILITARY BASES THAT THEY FLEW OVER WITHOUT ANYONE STOPPING THEM.
Irrelevent. How were they supposed to know that the plane was hijacked? Looked just like another commercial jet.

Indeed, he should be worried about his own fascist government censoring and banning everything and imposing national ID cards in the name of 'terrorism'.

P.S. The fact that you actually took that PM "debunking" article seriously says a lot about you.
Ignore the fact that it was written by MICHAEL CHERTOFF'S FUCKING BROTHER, it debunks nothing except the easiet and most wacky strawman theories by the aluminum hat folk, and not the respected scholars who actually care about their country.

Apparently, you do buy into the conspiracy theories. Not surprising. I bet you also hate America or you just hate the administration so much that you rather blame them instead of actually looking at the evidence that debunks Loose change as well as all the other conspiracy theories out there.

maybe... (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html)

Iran's president said it best:



I refuse to believe people who are depicted as "living in caves" capable of planning such an elaborate scheme and executing it flawlessly without any sign of resistance.

Then you are a complete idiot. No one said that the terrorists are stupid. Do you think they are?

Well its either they are smarter than us or they live in caves, ask the media and the american government to clarify.

Oh brother. Dude. These terrorists are not stupid at all. They are hiding out in caves but that does not make one unintelligent. Right now, your the only one who is showing unintelligence.

Until then shut the fuck up and stop bothering me.

And this is where you lose the debate.

Irrelevent. How were they supposed to know that the plane was hijacked? Looked just like another commercial jet.

It was a standard procedure, even before 9-11, to inquire into any course changes made by a plane. This was not done satisfactorily, and I think that sounds fishy.

I STRONGLY suggest you read the requirments for airworthiness before you make such assinine statements. The avionics of a 757/737 will not let you fly beyond the design of the aircraft.

This kills me ....NOR FLY LOW ENOUGH TO CRASH INTO THE PENTAGON
Then how the fuck do they land :confused:


I said a wrong move during a turn could snap the plane in half. In other words, you cannot make these maneuvers NOR FLY LOW ENOUGH TO CRASH INTO THE PENTAGON if you have no idea how to fly a Cessna. Those sharp turns can easily overstress the aircraft if you dont know what you are doing.

Stop being jerkoffs and read.

Irrelevent. How were they supposed to know that the plane was hijacked? Looked just like another commercial jet.

So a jet diverts from its course, and an hour later it crashes into a building, and theres excuses for that?

After the first one hit, you just say "hey i guess we dont need to send up fighters, the tragedy is over"?

Give me a break.

Then you are a complete idiot. No one said that the terrorists are stupid. Do you think they are?
in another thread didn't you say someone doesn't have any credit because they were attacking character?


well if the pot hasn't met kettle yet....

So a jet diverts from its course, and an hour later it crashes into a building, and theres excuses for that?

After the first one hit, you just say "hey i guess we dont need to send up fighters, the tragedy is over"?

Give me a break.
dunno, didn't most ppl think that it was an accident? I remember the morning it happened and i was told it appeared to be one.

It was a standard procedure, even before 9-11, to inquire into any course changes made by a plane. This was not done satisfactorily, and I think that sounds fishy.

Why didnt a single Airline pilot or NORAD member said something was out of line then?

So a jet diverts from its course, and an hour later it crashes into a building, and theres excuses for that?

After the first one hit, you just say "hey i guess we dont need to send up fighters, the tragedy is over"?

Give me a break.
Are you suggesting that the military should have shot down every commercial jet in the air immediately after the first plane hit, even in remote areas of New England?

On September 11 there was much confusion and disorganization. Some fighters were scrambled, but in the wrong places. Information was not being efficiently communicated. It was a surprise attack. None of this indicates a conspiracy.

So a jet diverts from its course, and an hour later it crashes into a building, and theres excuses for that?

After the first one hit, you just say "hey i guess we dont need to send up fighters, the tragedy is over"?

Give me a break.
Posse Comitatus act makes sending up fighters to shoot down commercial aircraft extremely complicated.

Remember that there was no precedent or planning for this. Nobody knew exactly what to do, and only the president could have ordered fighters to shoot down the planes. By the time that people could figure out what was happening, notify the president, get him to stop reading My Pet Goat, figure out how to advise him and get the fighters up and aimed at the right commercial jets the 9/11 attacks were over.

God damn did you not read a single word I said?

Please enlighten me. How would you, an unexperienced pilot after hijacking a plane somewhere over the US, be able to navigate to your target city?

Its called Autopilot. Major cities have these things called airports that you can set your autopilot to and the plane can basically fly itself. Only time you have to touch your controls is to make course corrections.

That is what a 757 pilot said about the incident. And in case you need the flightpaths AGAIN:
http://www.willthomas.net/images/911/911-bases-flightpaths.gif

Consider 2 things as well:

The final turn upward on the blue line (I cant read the flight number)
THE BILLIONS OF MILITARY BASES THAT THEY FLEW OVER WITHOUT ANYONE STOPPING THEM.

Apparently, you know nothing of how the military handles hijackings in the past.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didnt deny the existence of a plane you fucking moron. Learn to read. I saw no plane from the stills and would like to see the full video, thats all I said.

Stop cussing and debate nicely. You lose more crediblity by cussing at your opponets than you do by your debunked tactics.

in another thread didn't you say someone doesn't have any credit because they were attacking character?


well if the pot hasn't met kettle yet....

I did say that but in the case of people believing in debunked conspiracy theories....

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good sources of information that attempt to counter or dispel these conspiracies???

....might be that there are no sutch sources at all but just a lot of open questions on facts which are part of a very complex and not entirely explainable reality...it aint easy to say who are the good ones and who are the bad today and in lak of simple explinations conspiracy theories come up very easy like rumours ... 'cause people dont like open questions ! nonsolved riddles are scary, arent they ? ...anyway conspiracy theories are a straight forward method to put the blame on whoever you hate right now... and furtheron a lot of guesses to unresolved questions are offered by uncounted organisations, politicians, medias and individuals whenever it sells or is advantageous in other ways ...
for you and me it seems to be easy to believe in those theories ... you dont have to worry anymore ! --- cause now you know.
.. if somebody cant find out by himself or doesnt have the time for profund researches on a topic to learn to understand whats going on, there is allways a third choice : patience - in 1o, 20 or 30 yaers everything will be explaind ... whene those who are to blame are gone.

I STRONGLY suggest you read the requirments for airworthiness before you make such assinine statements. The avionics of a 757/737 will not let you fly beyond the design of the aircraft.

This kills me ....NOR FLY LOW ENOUGH TO CRASH INTO THE PENTAGON
Then how the fuck do they land :confused:

The plane didnt land into the pentagon it crashed into the pentagon at about 400 mph.

Dog, shut up

http://911myths.com

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

There.

I did say that but in the case of people believing in debunked conspiracy theories....
rofl.

I don't personally know why anyone would be desperate enough to blame 9/11on Isreal or Bush. Here are some things I learned from my good ole friend Mr. History Channel.

1. The towers weren't designed for today's planes or terrorist attacks. Keep in mind that the towers were built in the 70s. Different planes than the 80s, 90s, or new millenium.

2. Even though the towers survived the blast, the heat from burning jet fuel(no, planes don't run on mud or gasoline) would be enough to take the towers down. Why? Well, one possible theory states that the blast severely damaged the special coating on the beams that protected them, leaving them vulnerable to heat.

3. Don't trust wiki. Any idiot can edit anything.

Here's an example of why I don't trust wiki:
topic: earth.
original article: the earth is round.
edited article: The earth is almost spherical, bulging near the equator due to it's spinning.-clarification
second editing: the earth is completely flat. It also does not exist.-vandalism
third editing: Peter ran a little bit before he had to take a sit.-off-topic

Why didnt a single Airline pilot or NORAD member said something was out of line then?

Do we disagree? That's exactly what I'm asking, I think.

To Quote Oh Brother Where Art Thou "That don't make no sense"

Ok are you saying a 757 can't fly at low altitude ??? That is a pantenly STUPID statement period. All alircraft can fly at low altitude. With a SR-71 it would be a bad idea but 99% of all other it's not a problem. I'd like to foward these forum to you flight instructor so he/she can get a giggle. Where do you fly out of so I can AVOID IT AT ALL COSTS!!!!
About VFR navigation ..ever hear of the Asphalt compass???

The plane didnt land into the pentagon it crashed into the pentagon at about 400 mph.

Dog, shut up

http://911myths.com

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

There.


huh canadaCity - u r not very friendly and kind of ignorant - loosen up or see your doc as soon as possible !
... these links u provided are prooving what i dared to say

have a nice chat

How about we put this to bed. Breaking news CNN right now.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Video showing a plane crashing into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, was released publicly for the first time Tuesday, a judicial watchdog group said.

The Justice Department has handed over tapes showing American Airlines Flight 77 striking the building outside Washington to Judicial Watch, a public interest group that requested the video, the group said.

The video is available on the group's Web site, according to a news release from Judicial Watch.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pentagon.video/index.html

How about we put this to bed. Breaking news CNN right now.



http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pentagon.video/index.html

And thus the Pentagon Conspiracy theory goes up in flames.

And thus the Pentagon Conspiracy theory goes up in flames.
Yeah.

"We fought hard to obtain this video because we felt that it was very important to complete the public record with respect to the terrorist attacks of September 11," said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.

"Finally, we hope that this video will put to rest the conspiracy theories involving American Airlines Flight 77. As always, our prayers remain with all those who suffered as a result of those murderous attacks."

So a jet diverts from its course, and an hour later it crashes into a building, and theres excuses for that?

After the first one hit, you just say "hey i guess we dont need to send up fighters, the tragedy is over"?

Give me a break.
are you suggesting that those planes flew over a billion military bases and that those bases did nothing because THEY WERE ALL IN ON IT?

if you think about it, youll realize that that is crazy thought.

are you suggesting that those planes flew over a billion military bases and that those bases did nothing because THEY WERE ALL IN ON IT?

if you think about it, youll realize that that is crazy thought.

Remember, if he goes by his theory, that means Canada is involved too. NORAD is US+Canadian operation here.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
K?
Yeah. You make my point with this BYU guy. Who's siding with him? Anyone? Nope. Try again.

Yeah. You make my point with this BYU guy. Who's siding with him? Anyone? Nope. Try again.

Indeed.

You guys are fucking idiots if you believe this.

Not a single structual engineer have come forward and said there were bombs. Not one. You can take Jeff King, an electric engineer, or a physics engineer, but when a structual engineer says "No, it's not possible", I rather take their opinion.

As for Loose Change, here is a good DEBUNK of the entire thing.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

Just remember Loose Change does not even approuch any respectable experts, any real witnesses, or uses similes as concrete evidence. They use news from American Free Press, known for white supremacists and anti-jewish news articles. Loose Change creates straw man arguments and gets the WRONG ENGINE on flight 77.

And today, the pentagon video will be released. To piss you off, here is a FOX NEWS link to it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195702,00.html

They also ban people from their boards questioning their theories. In person, who writes a webcomic I read, was one of them:

http://bloodknight.livejournal.com/

Idiots :upyours:
THANK you! It takes Canadians...

I dont give a fuck about loose change and I have never watched it before. All I know is 5 Israelis dressed as palestinians who were later confirmed as Mossad agents knew these attacks were going to occur, filmed them, and acted content. I want to know what they had to do with it.

I also want to know why our government had all the information necessary before 9/11 to stop it and didnt.

I dont care about the physics, I dont care about the conspiracy, I just want to know who did this, because it is getting seemingly obvious that it was not Al-Qaeda or Bin-Laden.
What the flying assfuck are you yammering about? WHAT five Israelis? Are you psychotic or just reeeeeally high?

What the flying assfuck are you yammering about? WHAT five Israelis? Are you psychotic or just reeeeeally high?

No need to cuss. It detracts from what you are saying and/or asking.

No need to cuss. It detracts from what you are saying and/or asking.
Look, I can "cuss" all I wish if I so choose. Indirect "cussing" causes nobody any harm and in the post you quoted, illustrates my bemusement and frustration. Direct "cussing", such as that employed by Kazus even after he was warned by a Mod, is a problem, against the rules here, and detracts from any argument.

I personally don't care what you think of it, sir -- partly because I didn't ask you, but mostly on general principle.

Have an interesting day.

Look, I can "cuss" all I wish if I so choose. Indirect "cussing" causes nobody any harm and in the post you quoted, illustrates my bemusement and frustration. Direct "cussing", such as that employed by Kazus even after he was warned by a Mod, is a problem, against the rules here, and detracts from any argument.

I personally don't care what you think of it, sir -- partly because I didn't ask you, but mostly on general principle.

Have an interesting day.

However, swearing during a debate makes you lose the debate automatically for it shows a lack of intellect. That is the rules of debate.

It was a standard procedure, even before 9-11, to inquire into any course changes made by a plane. This was not done satisfactorily, and I think that sounds fishy.
Standard procedure where? If you want to post stuff like that, back it up.

Standard procedure where? If you want to post stuff like that, back it up.

Actually... it is standard procedure of the FAA when planes make unauthorized course changes.

are you suggesting that those planes flew over a billion military bases and that those bases did nothing because THEY WERE ALL IN ON IT?

if you think about it, youll realize that that is crazy thought.

No I am asking WHY nothing was done, stop fucking putting words in my god damn mouth. And if its so god damn crazy, WHY THE FUCK WASNT ANYTHING DONE.

as for Mossad and the five Israelis, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

And I watched both videos on judicialwatch.org and I see no plane. Just some small object and then an explosion. These videos do not confirm nor deny a plane.

No I am asking WHY nothing was done, stop fucking putting words in my god damn mouth. And if its so god damn crazy, WHY THE FUCK WASNT ANYTHING DONE.

as for Mossad and the five Israelis, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

Oh brother. Another conspiracy website.

And I watched both videos on judicialwatch.org and I see no plane. Just some small object and then an explosion. These videos do not confirm nor deny a plane.

No but eyewitnesses confirm the plane.

However, swearing during a debate makes you lose the debate automatically for it shows a lack of intellect. That is the rules of debate.
No, sir, that is YOUR rules for debate. You can wish them to be true all you want, but the point is I just don't care. If I swear directly at you -- make you the direct object of an expletive-laden statement -- I lose points because I can't refute you, so I must attempt to smear you through the use of "colorful metaphors". I choose not to engage in that behavior because it's not only sophomoric, it's against the forum's rules. However, if I say "what the fuck" or even abbreviate it to "WTF", no amount of clout is lost in my argument. To you, perhaps, but that's you.

Someone who uses expletives as an adjunct to conversation is likely to have very little of importance to say. However, the occasional use (as my earlier use was...I'd not used any until then) is like a kind of intense spice. Too much and it's ruined, but used judiciously and creatively, it can enhance a statement. I don't imagine that NOT using the "spice" makes an argument weak, but neither do I think that careful and creative use weakens anything.

Back to the topic, then, please?

And I watched both videos on judicialwatch.org and I see no plane. Just some small object and then an explosion. These videos do not confirm nor deny a plane.

Why would the government release videos when it's evidence that it was a coverup?

Easy, it isn't.

No I am asking WHY nothing was done, stop fucking putting words in my god damn mouth. And if its so god damn crazy, WHY THE FUCK WASNT ANYTHING DONE.

as for Mossad and the five Israelis, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

And I watched both videos on judicialwatch.org and I see no plane. Just some small object and then an explosion. These videos do not confirm nor deny a plane.
Nothing was done because nothing was suspected. Relax, pal, you're lathering up for no really good reason. You're not a lawyer here, this is just a forum. This particular thread population doesn't believe your line. That's okay, it happens. I was once howled out of a forum for daring to suggest Oswald acted alone. Guess what? I still believe it. Just because nobody buys your claptrap doesn't mean you can't go on believing it. It just means you're not going to find any ideological purchase for it here. Move on, sonny, and stop taking all this so seriously.

Oh brother. Another conspiracy website.

They cite/link to non-conspiracy websites, but i guess sources that say different from what you think means conspiracy.

Why would the government release videos when it's evidence that it was a coverup?

Easy, it isn't.

WTF kind of logic is that?

WTF kind of logic is that?

Damn good logic. Why would you release evidence that shows your guilty?

CanadaCity and Kazus, stop flaming.

CanadaCity and Kazus, stop flaming.

Posting rebunks and evidence is now flaming?

Nothing was done because nothing was suspected. Relax, pal, you're lathering up for no really good reason. You're not a lawyer here, this is just a forum. This particular thread population doesn't believe your line. That's okay, it happens. I was once howled out of a forum for daring to suggest Oswald acted alone. Guess what? I still believe it. Just because nobody buys your claptrap doesn't mean you can't go on believing it. It just means you're not going to find any ideological purchase for it here. Move on, sonny, and stop taking all this so seriously.

Its not that noone buys it its that everyone is basically telling me to stop asking questions when I am still rather VERY confused.

It wasnt suspected? 4 planes were hijacked and 3 hit their targets. Are you telling me we didnt suspect anything? Anything at all? A plane deviates off course at 8 AM. By 8:15 you should KNOW its hijacked. 45 minutes later, chaos ensues. And youre telling me nothing was done because we didnt suspect anything? Thats a load of bullshit and nothing you say can possibly sway my opinions on the matter.

Also, you dont know it was Oswald at all, and you sure as HELL dont know what happened on 9/11. Very few do. I dont either, but I at least ask questions. People like you just say "No, stop asking" and frankly its a little irritating.

Damn good logic. Why would you release evidence that shows your guilty?

Oh gee I dont know because you tampered with it first to show that you arent?

Oh gee I dont know because you tampered with it first to show that you arent?

Well shit, is this how you are going to say anything that doesn't go with your fantasy scenario? "Tampered", "Bought", "Lie", "Shill" ?

Well shit, is this how you are going to say anything that doesn't go with your fantasy scenario? "Tampered", "Bought", "Lie", "Shill" ?

Are you just going to sit there and say its impossible?

I dont even have a "fantasy" scenario. I dont have a scenario whatsoever. And these tapes that are supposed to show a plane dont show shit so what does it matter? All we are left with is more questions.

No, sir, that is YOUR rules for debate.

Actually... no its not my rules. Those are the standard rules of debate. Take a debate class and you shall see.

*snip*

Abbreviations I do not mind because you can always make words out of them that have nothing to do with their original means. However directly swearing at me won't get you a cuss back because I do my best not to respond in kind. So feel free to do so but prepare to have the comments ignored.

Someone who uses expletives as an adjunct to conversation is likely to have very little of importance to say.

First thing I can agree with in this post.

However, the occasional use (as my earlier use was...I'd not used any until then) is like a kind of intense spice. Too much and it's ruined, but used judiciously and creatively, it can enhance a statement. I don't imagine that NOT using the "spice" makes an argument weak, but neither do I think that careful and creative use weakens anything.

Back to the topic, then, please?

Doesn't matter what context a swear word is. It detracts from your statement.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

Are you just going to sit there and say its impossible?

Right..

Listen man, I really don't need a video to confirm a plane hit or not. Do you know why? Witnesses and photos.


http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image064.jpg

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/083.html

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image063.jpg

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image066.jpg

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image062.jpg

Are you going to tell me that these are planted?

ok number one: no shows have been "banned" it doesent work like that here, its never happened k? its the tv channels choice to air somthing, if its a piece of crap they wont air it(hmm no wonder it was never aired)
2. i find this f**king offensive that u have the nerve to disrespect victims of 9/11 by telling them all this, do you think they really want to hear this?? that some conspiracist said it was all true.

its all bull.

Its not that noone buys it its that everyone is basically telling me to stop asking questions when I am still rather VERY confused.

Actually... we are telling you what physicists, scientists, and engineers have already stated in public.

It wasnt suspected? 4 planes were hijacked and 3 hit their targets. Are you telling me we didnt suspect anything? Anything at all? A plane deviates off course at 8 AM. By 8:15 you should KNOW its hijacked. 45 minutes later, chaos ensues. And youre telling me nothing was done because we didnt suspect anything? Thats a load of bullshit and nothing you say can possibly sway my opinions on the matter.

Hey dude, the US knew that the Japanese were going to attack. They didn't know where! Does that mean its a cover up?

Also, you dont know it was Oswald at all, and you sure as HELL dont know what happened on 9/11.

Actually... we have a pretty decent picture of what happened on 9/11.

Right..

Listen man, I really don't need a video to confirm a plane hit or not. Do you know why? Witnesses and photos.


http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image064.jpg

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/083.html

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image063.jpg

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image066.jpg

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image062.jpg

Are you going to tell me that these planted?


All this shows is airplane debris. Are you going to tell me theres no possibility they WERENT planted?

Oh and a picture with a caption that says "Debris photo taken here" is hardly convincing.

And I am still waiting on an explanation about the 5 Israelis.

Well shit, is this how you are going to say anything that doesn't go with your fantasy scenario? "Tampered", "Bought", "Lie", "Shill" ?

Ok. Knock it off. Both of you.

All this shows is airplane debris. Are you going to tell me theres no possibility they WERENT planted?

Oh and a picture with a caption that says "Debris photo taken here" is hardly convincing.

And I am still waiting on an explanation about the 5 Israelis.

Easy, they weren't 5 iraelis.

What proof do you have that they were planted? In order to prove an extraordinary claim, you need to have extraordinary evidence.

Easy, they weren't 5 iraelis.

What proof do you have that they were planted? In order to prove an extraordinary claim, you need to have extraordinary evidence.

How about you prove it wasnt. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I never made a claim, I said it was COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that it was planted and you cannot prove to me that its IMPOSSIBLE.

Oh so even though they were confirmed to be 5 Israeli Mossad agents, they werent? Excellent reasoning.

How about you prove it wasnt.

Oh so even though they were confirmed to be 5 Israeli Mossad agents, they werent? Excellent reasoning.

How do we know they were mossad agents? How do you know they were mossad agents? Because some website said so? don't believe everything on the net Kazus.

How do we know they were mossad agents? How do you know they were mossad agents? Because some website said so? don't believe everything on the net Kazus.

OK THEN I WONT BELIEVE ANY LINKS IN THIS THREAD PROVING IT WASNT A CONSPIRACY THEORY BECAUSE EVERYTHING ON THE NET IS OBVIOUSLY FALSE.

OK THEN I WONT BELIEVE ANY LINKS IN THIS THREAD PROVING IT WASNT A CONSPIRACY THEORY BECAUSE EVERYTHING ON THE NET IS OBVIOUSLY FALSE.

Despite the fact that the links come from credible news sources?

OK THEN I WONT BELIEVE ANY LINKS IN THIS THREAD PROVING IT WASNT A CONSPIRACY THEORY BECAUSE EVERYTHING ON THE NET IS OBVIOUSLY FALSE.

Show us real evidence. WhatReallyHappened are idiots thorugh and through; they are one of the few who still believe Bin Laden's tape is fake.

WhatReallyHappened are idiots

You convinced me!

Oh and even Fox News back in 2001 reported that bin laden was dead
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html
So how did he come out with "new" tapes?

You convinced me!

Good, because anyone who actually believes that the Bin Laden videos are FAKE should lose what little credibility they have.

You convinced me!

Oh and even Fox News back in 2001 reported that bin laden was dead
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html
So how did he come out with "new" tapes?

It was a story on a foreign newspaper. They are mainly reporting from it's source.

Good, because anyone who actually believes that the Bin Laden videos are FAKE should lose what little credibility they have.

Because you say so, right?

Its not that noone buys it its that everyone is basically telling me to stop asking questions when I am still rather VERY confused.

It wasnt suspected? 4 planes were hijacked and 3 hit their targets. Are you telling me we didnt suspect anything? Anything at all? A plane deviates off course at 8 AM. By 8:15 you should KNOW its hijacked. 45 minutes later, chaos ensues. And youre telling me nothing was done because we didnt suspect anything? Thats a load of bullshit and nothing you say can possibly sway my opinions on the matter.

Also, you dont know it was Oswald at all, and you sure as HELL dont know what happened on 9/11. Very few do. I dont either, but I at least ask questions. People like you just say "No, stop asking" and frankly its a little irritating.
First off, I never said "stop asking" -- I said "stop asking HERE." This is not a 9/11 facts clearinghouse.

Second, the US policy on hijacked planes before 9/11 was relax, hands off and let them go where they want. THAT is why nothing was done. It's been posted here at least five times and you've chosen to ignore it. If you want an answer that better suits you, go find one.

Third, you are clearly NOT confused. If you were truly unsure, you wouldn't defend such outlandish claims with such vehemence and profanity! You'd go outside of NS and look for real support. You're just trying to troll your way into some attention, and congrats, you got it.

Finally, you're right, I wasn't there, I don't know it was Oswald in the same way I know that if I set my hair on fire, it'll hurt. However, Nova (PBS) documentarians re-created the exact angles and situations with regard to Dallas, and proved that three aimed shots in eight-point-some-odd seconds with a bolt-action rifle is possible for someone with Oswald's Marine training. The "Magic Bullet" was debunked because the original theory supposed that both targets were seated at the same height and lined up straight in the car. They simply weren't. The back seat was higher and the front passenger seat was slightly inboard of the back seat. With those more accurate data points, the trajectory of shots perfectly matches a lone assassin in the Texas Book Depository building. Now, WHY Oswald did it, that's a whole 'nother story. No idea there.

The point is, I'm satisfied with Nova's demonstrations and I'm satisfied with 9/11's explanation because nobody has produced even a shred of credible evidence to the contrary.

Because you say so, right?

Do I even need to show you evidence debunking that idiot theory, since you're too damn dense to look yourself?

Actually... no its not my rules. Those are the standard rules of debate. Take a debate class and you shall see.



Abbreviations I do not mind because you can always make words out of them that have nothing to do with their original means. However directly swearing at me won't get you a cuss back because I do my best not to respond in kind. So feel free to do so but prepare to have the comments ignored.



First thing I can agree with in this post.



Doesn't matter what context a swear word is. It detracts from your statement.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.
And I disagree wholeheartedly (this isn't a debate class, btw).

How about you prove it wasnt. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I never made a claim, I said it was COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that it was planted and you cannot prove to me that its IMPOSSIBLE.

Oh so even though they were confirmed to be 5 Israeli Mossad agents, they werent? Excellent reasoning.
Confirmed by whom? Proof, please.

By the way, it's this kind of post that leads me to believe that you are FAR from confused. You WANT to believe in a conspiracy so badly, you're not even out looking for proof -- you're in here yelling at us. That's not confusion, that's irrational certainty.

And I disagree wholeheartedly (this isn't a debate class, btw).

No but proper debating etiquette is preferable.

However, swearing during a debate makes you lose the debate automatically for it shows a lack of intellect. That is the rules of debate.
The fuck you say.

How about you prove it wasnt. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I never made a claim, I said it was COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that it was planted and you cannot prove to me that its IMPOSSIBLE.

Oh so even though they were confirmed to be 5 Israeli Mossad agents, they werent? Excellent reasoning.
Isn't just about anything a possibility? There is no way to prove that anything is impossible! That's a basic rule of logic! We don't know the ways in which anything might happen because we don't fully understand the universe (good grief, I'm veering into cosmology for this guy). Asking to prove that something is impossible is the logical equivalent of the old lawyer question "when did you stop beating your wife" -- there's no non-incriminating way to answer it. Nobody can prove something's impossible in a scenario as complex as 9/11. Probability, however, is certainly available for examination.

Therefore, since you are so adamant that it IS possible, you MUST prove that your theory DID in fact happen. But you can't. Is whatever you're yammering about possible? Sure it is. But is it at all likely? Not no, but HELL no. Now please, have a cookie and some milk and calm down.

The fuck you say.
LOL, right on...exactly.

The fuck you say.

Relax dobbsworld. remember your blood pressure. And yes, proper debating etiquette is preferable if you want to have your points read. Since I know you don't, I expect nothing different from ya.

No but proper debating etiquette is preferable.
So you say. I disagree. Make your point in any way you like. If I choose to spice mine up, that's my choice. Nobody types to please you or conform to your so-called rules of debate, which don't apply here. People who scoff at the occasional well-placed expletive, in my experience, tend to see themselves as some sort of moral "guardians". Well, who asked you?

So you say. I disagree. Make your point in any way you like. If I choose to spice mine up, that's my choice.

Yes it is your choice but not using cuss words makes your point but using cuss words detracts from it.

Nobody types to please you or conform to your so-called rules of debate, which don't apply here.

Again, they are not my rules of debate.

People who scoff at the occasional well-placed expletive, in my experience, tend to see themselves as some sort of moral "guardians". Well, who asked you?

No one. I'm just trying to make sure that your points don't get overshadowed which happens if you use cuss words while making a point.

it was................ALIENS!!!!! or mole people

No one. I'm just trying to make sure that your points don't get overshadowed which happens if you use cuss words while making a point.
You know what? I never asked you to do that, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped. You've made it quite clear what you prefer, and I've made it even clearer that I don't care. If you'll notice, I've used "cuss words" in ONE post to express my flabbergastedness at K's rantings. You're posting me like all I've done is use expletives.

Thank you, but I'LL be the one in charge of my language, and I'LL accept the consequences my language evokes, okay? You mind the plank in your own eye, brother.

I have spent time with friends on the Subject of 9/11 and all the attacks. I have also watched convincing videos. many of which [I]could[I]have been messed with, but the point is that the governement either did it or wasn't involved.

The pentagon attack. There was no evidence of a plane. there was a video of it i watched. and it showed a white object crashing into the building however it was unclear if it was a plane or missile. The hole that the plane/missile made was a small one. Not quite big enough for a plane. One thing though, the yard of the Pentagon. it was perfect after the attack and around the building. where are the skid marks from the "plane that crashed into the wall" Many witnesses have said plane and missile. For sure though, the government carried out something under a tarp soon after the "attack" what it was, no one will say or got paid not to say.

The plane "crashing" in Penn? I'm not sure the exact location, and i think it was flight 93..? but anyways, where was the plane? there have been many plane accidents that involved similar things to flight 93. planes don't just disappear. rule out fire. there was nothing left behind. a big dent in the ground. no debris. Many people have also "sighted" flight 93 elsewhere, which i don't necessairly believe.

The World Trade Centers were obviously hit with planes. Now.. i watched a hour or so long video on the wtc. it was quite interesting. it showed that the building had a series of bombs go off while the buildings were burning. bombs? in the building? how? the security was testing or trying something new and was withdrawn from the area. the bomb-sniffing dogs and whatever else is around all that. ironic that it happened and then the towers were attacked?

Now, once again. these are things i have looked at and if you would like to see them try to contact me. like i said earlier, these videos could have been messed with, but i doubt it. the government took the videos from surronding hotels near the pentagon and have never released a lot of useful footage that would prove one of the theories. i am not necessairly anti-american. just very unhappy with the way it is being ran and how the dealt with 9/11

I believe the Gov't is not showing us a lot of information and that is suspicous. i believe that Pentagon was Not a plane. No way. and that the flight 93 never took place. WTC had some help going down, meaning bombs. Now even if the Gov't was behind this..why? This question has puzzled me, however one of my friends who is more in debt about 9/11. believe that it was to help the economy. Now don't come replying back to me about how a huge "terrorist attack" could help the economy.

Thank You.
Jeff.

You know what? I never asked you to do that, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped. You've made it quite clear what you prefer, and I've made it even clearer that I don't care. If you'll notice, I've used "cuss words" in ONE post to express my flabbergastedness at K's rantings. You're posting me like all I've done is use expletives.

Thank you, but I'LL be the one in charge of my language, and I'LL accept the consequences my language evokes, okay? You mind the plank in your own eye, brother.

I don't believe I have uttered a single cuss word throughout this thread.

I don't believe I have uttered a single cuss word throughout this thread.
??? I never said you did. Kindly read my post thoroughly before responding, please.

I have spent time with friends on the Subject of 9/11 and all the attacks. I have also watched convincing videos. many of which [I]could[I]have been messed with, but the point is that the governement either did it or wasn't involved.

The pentagon attack. There was no evidence of a plane. there was a video of it i watched. and it showed a white object crashing into the building however it was unclear if it was a plane or missile. The hole that the plane/missile made was a small one. Not quite big enough for a plane. One thing though, the yard of the Pentagon. it was perfect after the attack and around the building. where are the skid marks from the "plane that crashed into the wall" Many witnesses have said plane and missile. For sure though, the government carried out something under a tarp soon after the "attack" what it was, no one will say or got paid not to say.

The plane "crashing" in Penn? I'm not sure the exact location, and i think it was flight 93..? but anyways, where was the plane? there have been many plane accidents that involved similar things to flight 93. planes don't just disappear. rule out fire. there was nothing left behind. a big dent in the ground. no debris. Many people have also "sighted" flight 93 elsewhere, which i don't necessairly believe.

The World Trade Centers were obviously hit with planes. Now.. i watched a hour or so long video on the wtc. it was quite interesting. it showed that the building had a series of bombs go off while the buildings were burning. bombs? in the building? how? the security was testing or trying something new and was withdrawn from the area. the bomb-sniffing dogs and whatever else is around all that. ironic that it happened and then the towers were attacked?

Now, once again. these are things i have looked at and if you would like to see them try to contact me. like i said earlier, these videos could have been messed with, but i doubt it. the government took the videos from surronding hotels near the pentagon and have never released a lot of useful footage that would prove one of the theories. i am not necessairly anti-american. just very unhappy with the way it is being ran and how the dealt with 9/11

I believe the Gov't is not showing us a lot of information and that is suspicous. i believe that Pentagon was Not a plane. No way. and that the flight 93 never took place. WTC had some help going down, meaning bombs. Now even if the Gov't was behind this..why? This question has puzzled me, however one of my friends who is more in debt about 9/11. believe that it was to help the economy. Now don't come replying back to me about how a huge "terrorist attack" could help the economy.

Thank You.
Jeff.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

Relax dobbsworld. remember your blood pressure. And yes, proper debating etiquette is preferable if you want to have your points read. Since I know you don't, I expect nothing different from ya.
My blood pressure is fine. I just thought a well-placed bon mot would help relieve some of the tedium brought on by etiquette.

All this shows is airplane debris. Are you going to tell me theres no possibility they WERENT planted?

Oh and a picture with a caption that says "Debris photo taken here" is hardly convincing.

And I am still waiting on an explanation about the 5 Israelis.
did i miss the link you provided that discussed these 5 israelis? perhaps you would be so kind as to post it again.

Not the first time I've heard the story about the five happy Mossad agents, though I don't recall any pertinent links that substantiate the claim.

Not the first time I've heard the story about the five happy Mossad agents, though I don't recall any pertinent links that substantiate the claim.
but dobbs, kazus MUST have posted a link. how could he bring up some vague rumor of israeli agents without credible proof. what would there BE to refute? i could just as well start demanding answers to the space aliens i heard were responsible for 9/11

FoX news told me it was a bunch of Arabs controlled by bin laden (who was a CIA trained fella who’s brother Salem bin laden was in business with Bush many years ago in the oil) Fox news told me that the government after a meticulous investigation that took hours found evidence that will prove that it was bin laden (I am waiting for the proof, any wako can make a video to say he did it to be famous)

Supposedly, the only proof linking all of this, is a passport found on the streets of New York of one of the hijackers (I suppose it wasn’t the passport of one of the alleged terrorists that where later found alive driving a taxi with no ties to terrorist groups) it is really amazing and a struck of good luck to have found that important document not burned in to ashes after that mega explosion that disintegrated concrete in to dust and steel beams in to melted goo on the bottom of ground zero, not even the black boxes survived that intense heat, even when they are constructed with the strongest materials known to man. That passport was a tough cookie indeed.

For me it is more comfortable to believe that hijackers planning all of this from a cave and armed with box cutters where able to delay the air force for 45 minutes (when the response time is around 15 min) and managed to shoot down the pentagon air defenses with only box cutters then to think there is something fishy with many things of the official conspiracy theory that it was saddam hussein with bin laden and box cutters.

I believe that we will never know for sure exactly what happened and why, but no one that claims to use his intelligence can ignore alternate possibilities to the official government theory believing it blindly, and more when the end result make more sense.

I just don’t understand the mind of the terrorist that are smart enough to pull this and fool the most powerful military force in the world and not think about the consequences of such acts of violence, why give the super power more pretexts to send invaders to their lands, even when the nationality of most where from Saudi Arabia.

So, call me stupid for beeng suspicious, I don’t care, I feel sorry for those that are afraid to think and let the T.V. think for them.

If you want evidence of something that doesn’t add up, just investigate how many military exercises where active in 9 -11 -2001, what purpose they had and for the first time who ask for the power to control the calendar of the military exercises, you don’t have to believe any wacky conspiracy theorist, its on government websites and corporate media, just really buried behind base ball, britnie spears and be afraid news. And by the way, find out what NORAD is or used to be. :mp5:

edit: typos

but dobbs, kazus MUST have posted a link. how could he bring up some vague rumor of israeli agents without credible proof. what would there BE to refute? i could just as well start demanding answers to the space aliens i heard were responsible for 9/11
Sure, why not. But Kazus aside, this story has definitely made the rounds. A link would be helpful, assuming one exists.

...you'll note I haven't actually said one way or another whether I think this story is crappilicious or not...

No I am asking WHY nothing was done, stop fucking putting words in my god damn mouth. And if its so god damn crazy, WHY THE FUCK WASNT ANYTHING DONE.

as for Mossad and the five Israelis, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

And I watched both videos on judicialwatch.org and I see no plane. Just some small object and then an explosion. These videos do not confirm nor deny a plane.
i dont need to put words in your mouth, kazus, that is the implications of what you are saying. that hundreds of air traffic controllers and airforce personelle are willing to cover up the most heinous crime in american history. that our most patriotic citizens are willing to conspire with traitors. that those who have sworn to protect and defend the constitution of this country are TO A MAN willing to see it destroyed.

i see from looking at your link and then checking it on the net that the story varies from site to site. your link has them in a parking lot on the roof of the white van, another site has them on the roof of an office building, another has them in a state park

it looks to me like there are 2 seperate events, "arab looking men" celebrating the fall of the wtc, i have been told by a friend in nyc that she saw such celebrating on her way home that day, and the detention of several israelis. the report that they all refer back to on abc's website is no longer available so i cant judge how accurate that is. i get the feeling that abc found no big connection between the 2.

I really didnt feel like reading the last 11 pages so i dont know what you guys have debated.

I just finished watching "loose change" a few minutes ago cause i did read the first thread. It changed everything i thought, even tho i hate news and didnt know much to begin with. you just cant fight the facts.

I really didnt feel like reading the last 11 pages so i dont know what you guys have debated.

I just finished watching "loose change" a few minutes ago cause i did read the first thread. It changed everything i thought, even tho i hate news and didnt know much to begin with. you just cant fight the facts.

So you actually believe what loose change says?

I really didnt feel like reading the last 11 pages so i dont know what you guys have debated.

I just finished watching "loose change" a few minutes ago cause i did read the first thread. It changed everything i thought, even tho i hate news and didnt know much to begin with. you just cant fight the facts.

Idiot.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

HERE, LOOSE CHANGE DEBUNKED.

Take a deep breath.... And move on. Ignore stupid cospiracy theories: they're stupid.


Humanity is a stupid conspriacy idea. I was going to say orginally "Your mum is a stupid conspiracy idea" and then that popped into my mind. My 20C.

Idiot.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

HERE, LOOSE CHANGE DEBUNKED.
Bravo. I'm tired of people using statements from non-experts as evidence. An expert at mining is not an expert at everything. As for why the government took so long to tell us everything-investigations take time and even post office workers are faster than the government.

People will believe anything. I at least saw evidence of planes crashing into the towers. Until someone proves otherwise, I'm sticking with my story based on what I already know.

Planes crashed into the towers, but its not what brought them down.

Planes crashed into the towers, but its not what brought them down.
Right. Magical government bombs that can be placed on multiple floors by government agents in just minutes so nobody sees them being installed and are completely impossible to detect brought them down.

Isn't it time for your meds?

Planes crashed into the towers, but its not what brought them down.

So what brought them down? The damage done by the crashes? yep.

G'day all,

I was just watching a documentary on commercial television in Australia which briefly touched on some of the conspiracy theories covering Jewish involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

I have also seen a commercial television program, made by an American (apparantly banned in America) and shown on Austrlian TV which talks about reasons why the US government was involved in the attacks.

There's also a really c-grade google video called "loose change" which covers a lot of these theories.

Anyone seen it, or anything like it?

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good sources of information that attempt to counter or dispel these conspiracies???

For the quick-and-dirty, I'd advise Penn & Teller's episode of "Bullshit" on the topic. The Popular Mechanics article is also quite superb. The recently released security video from outside the Pentagon also guns a whole bunch of the theories to hell.

Right. Magical government bombs that can be placed on multiple floors by government agents in just minutes so nobody sees them being installed and are completely impossible to detect brought them down.

Isn't it time for your meds?

If you believe in magic you should take some of my meds

If you believe in magic you should take some of my meds
So you admit you're on psychiatric meds. As my old half Jew half Gypsy (Nazis would have loved him) employer used to say, "you can't argue with a sick mind".

So you actually believe what loose change says?

I'm not positive, but I'm having strong doubts about it being a terrorist act from Iraq or Iran or wherever. It reminds me of the Nanking Massacre, where Japan gave themselves a reason to attack; in a brief summary.

So you admit you're on psychiatric meds. As my old half Jew half Gypsy (Nazis would have loved him) employer used to say, "you can't argue with a sick mind".

well when talking to some one with mental problems, its best just to play along. dont want to start a problem.

I'm not positive, but I'm having strong doubts about it being a terrorist act from Iraq or Iran or wherever. It reminds me of the Nanking Massacre, where Japan gave themselves a reason to attack; in a brief summary.

They were terrorists from Al Quaeda and most were from Saudi Arabia. Neither Iraq or Iran had anything to do with it. No wonder you believe the conspiracy theories if you can't even get the most basic facts correct old boy.

I'm not positive, but I'm having strong doubts about it being a terrorist act from Iraq or Iran or wherever. It reminds me of the Nanking Massacre, where Japan gave themselves a reason to attack; in a brief summary.

No one here mentioned any nations. We know it was Al Qaeda that did it so what doubts are you having?

well when talking to some one with mental problems, its best just to play along. dont want to start a problem.
I love problems.

Maybe this was the wrong thread to discuss this on...hmmm. seems everyone is against me and on Bush's side.

I said "wherever" so that includes Al Qaeda.

Maybe this was the wrong thread to discuss this on...hmmm. seems everyone is against me and on Bush's side.

I said "wherever" so that includes Al Qaeda.
I'm not on Bush's side. I'm still not with you though.

Maybe this was the wrong thread to discuss this on...hmmm. seems everyone is against me and on Bush's side.

I said "wherever" so that includes Al Qaeda.

And I'm wondering where this statement came from! Sorry if I believe the facts and not a conspiracy.

You admitted here:


I really didnt feel like reading the last 11 pages so i dont know what you guys have debated.

I just finished watching "loose change" a few minutes ago cause i did read the first thread. It changed everything i thought, even tho i hate news and didnt know much to begin with. you just cant fight the facts.
...and displayed here:
I'm not positive, but I'm having strong doubts about it being a terrorist act from Iraq or Iran or wherever. It reminds me of the Nanking Massacre, where Japan gave themselves a reason to attack; in a brief summary.
...your lack of knowledge regarding 9/11. That makes you an easy target for conspiracy theory nuts. Do yourself a favor and read the rebuttal here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

And in the future, if you are not willing o actually read a variety of sources and stay up on the news and actively educate yourself you shoudl probably avoid having opinions and voting. It's people like you that gut us our current president.

And I can say the government is relying on your ignorance to not question it.

If you are assuming that this is a conspiracy:

The United States can be a pretty bad country at times but the simple cost of rebuilding the World Trade Center plaza would out way starting a war or rallying support for the country in something.

Who said i voted for Bush. If Bush isn't on my side i dont like him. (as i said a few minutes ago).

Well atleast we agree that Bush is a crapy president.

Read the 9/11 commision report. It covers all the oulandish theorys in Loose Change. Do not beleive conspiracy theorists, you could show them a picture that clearly shows we have nothing to do with it, and they would still try to contradict you, with some other, outlandish bogus material.

Who said i voted for Bush. If Bush isn't on my side i dont like him. (as i said a few minutes ago).

Well atleast we agree that Bush is a crapy president.
The point is that we have the president we do because we allow people with very little education and a very shallow understanding of the world to vote. Surveys have shown that Bush voters by and large are as stupid as he is. That doesn't mean that all conservatives or even all Bush voters are uneducated, but there's no question that a great deal of Bush voters are stupid.

You admitted here:


...and displayed here:
[quote=
...Do yourself a favor and read the rebuttal here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

And in the future, if you are not willing o actually read a variety of sources and stay up on the news and actively educate yourself you shoudl probably avoid having opinions and voting. It's people like you that gut us our current president.

I really hope you realise that popular mechanics is a very right wing bias magazine. I understand the veriety of sources, but reading two different kids of propaganda does not count as being informed. And yes, our president is corrupt.

Who said i voted for Bush. If Bush isn't on my side i dont like him. (as i said a few minutes ago).

Well atleast we agree that Bush is a crapy president.
I believe the claim was that you are an uninformed person, and that uninformed people made it possible for Bush to be elected to the American Presidency. Not that you yourself helped Bush get elected.

The United States can be a pretty bad country at times but the simple cost of rebuilding the World Trade Center plaza would out way starting a war or rallying support for the country in something.

Bush is not afraid to spend money, as you may have noticed.

Read the 9/11 commision report. It covers all the oulandish theorys in Loose Change. Do not beleive conspiracy theorists, you could show them a picture that clearly shows we have nothing to do with it, and they would still try to contradict you, with some other, outlandish bogus material.

What makes the 9/11 commision report the complete and objective truth? It should be just as questioned as Loose Change.

I really hope you realise that popular mechanics is a very right wing bias magazine. I understand the veriety of sources, but reading two different kids of propaganda does not count as being informed. And yes, our president is corrupt.

And yet it does a wonderful job in debunking the conspiracies. And name me a president that wasn't corrupt.

I really hope you realise that popular mechanics is a very right wing bias magazine. I understand the veriety of sources, but reading two different kids of propaganda does not count as being informed. And yes, our president is corrupt.
WTF?

Popular mechanics is a magazine about engineering, technology and cars. There is no political bent whatsoever to PopMech.

And yet it does a wonderful job in debunking the conspiracies. And name me a president that wasn't corrupt.

Roosevelt seemed like a pretty good guy.

Bush is not afraid to spend money, as you may have noticed.

What makes the 9/11 commision report the complete and objective truth? It should be just as questioned as Loose Change.
The 9/11 Commission Report is to be regarded as a rather accurate version of the truth as per the fact that it was written primarily by authorities in their fields. It was extensively researched and done very professionally. Personally, I think it contains far more credibility than some video on the internet.

Roosevelt seemed like a pretty good guy.

Which one?

I really hope you realise that popular mechanics is a very right wing bias magazine. I understand the veriety of sources, but reading two different kids of propaganda does not count as being informed. And yes, our president is corrupt.
I don't read it so I wouldn't know. Doesn't matter, though. The devbunking in the article is not done by anyone at Popular Mechanics. It's done by experts specifically asked to respond to the conspiracy theories. For example:

PM sent a digital scan of the original photo to Ronald Greeley, director of the Space Photography Laboratory at Arizona State University. Greeley is an expert at analyzing images to determine the shape and features of geological formations based on shadow and light effects. After studying the high-resolution image and comparing it to photos of a Boeing 767-200ER's undercarriage, Greeley dismissed the notion that the Howard photo reveals a "pod." In fact, the photo reveals only the Boeing's right fairing, a pronounced bulge that contains the landing gear. He concludes that sunlight glinting off the fairing gave it an exaggerated look. "Such a glint causes a blossoming (enlargement) on film," he writes in an e-mail to PM, "which tends to be amplified in digital versions of images--the pixels are saturated and tend to 'spill over' to adjacent pixels." When asked about pods attached to civilian aircraft, Fred E. Culick, professor of aeronautics at the California Institute of Technology, gave a blunter response: "That's bull. They're really stretching."

WTF?

Popular mechanics is a magazine about engineering, technology and cars. There is no political bent whatsoever to PopMech.

THEY HAD AND ARTICLE THAT SHOWED HOW GUN CONTROL WAS INHERENTLY BAD.

Which one?

The WWII era one.

THEY HAD AND ARTICLE THAT SHOWED HOW GUN CONTROL WAS INHERENTLY BAD.
Skeptical Inquirer had an article a couple of years back showing that gun control doesn't work. Are you going to claim that they've got some kind of political bent?

THEY HAD AND ARTICLE THAT SHOWED HOW GUN CONTROL WAS INHERENTLY BAD.
That's thin. One article does not a bent make.

Skeptical Inquirer had an article a couple of years back showing that gun control doesn't work. Are you going to claim that they've got some kind of political bent?

I didn't used to subscribe to them. I also don't like popular mechanics in general because it's targeted to the steryotypical idiot male.

Roosevelt seemed like a pretty good guy.

So was Ronald Reagan but they were both still corrupt.

The WWII era one.

You thinking of F.D.R? Thats a good president

THEY HAD AND ARTICLE THAT SHOWED HOW GUN CONTROL WAS INHERENTLY BAD.

And that makes it right wing? Tell me why murder rates go down when people have guns and go up when people dont.

So was Ronald Reagan but they were both still corrupt.

Roosevelt was no where near as corrupt as bush. And he helped the people. Bush has done crap for america, and more for rich america and it's corporations.

THEY HAD AND ARTICLE THAT SHOWED HOW GUN CONTROL WAS INHERENTLY BAD.
That does not prove that the magazine has a right wing bent. In fact, the article seems to be about how the viewpoint of assault weapons can readily change, or be changed by other forces.

Roosevelt was no where near as corrupt as bush. And he helped the people. Bush has done crap for america, and more for rich america and it's corporations.

Thanks for proving my point that all presidents are corrupt.

You thinking of F.D.R? Thats a good president

The one that was in a wheel chair. He was a good president.

lets make this easy. who was the most corrupted president? George W. Bush

I didn't used to subscribe to them. I also don't like popular mechanics in general because it's targeted to the steryotypical idiot male.
Because someone's got different interests than you they're and idiot. Wonderful.

lets make this easy. who was the most corrupted president? George W. Bush

Actually...I wouldn't go that far.

Thanks for proving my point that all presidents are corrupt.

You can insist he was corrupt and how ever wrong you may be, I cannot conferm it myself and therefore cannot argue against it.

Thanks for proving my point that all presidents are corrupt.

lets start from the beginning: George Washington :p

lets start from the beginning: George Washington :p
Slaveowner.

Because someone's got different interests than you they're and idiot. Wonderful.

No, steryotypical men that all those adds are targeted to. The ones that go out there and will buy all the huge ass cars because a magazine told them to. The ones that have blind faith in bad leadership because it's the "patriotic" thing to do.

Slaveowner.

how does owning a slave make you corrupt? its a very bad thing but it doesnt give him more power.

Slaveowner.

so was every rich white man at the time. And that's not being corrupt, that's doing bad things. He actually gave all of his slaves their freedom when he died.

No, steryotypical men that all those adds are targeted to. The ones that go out there and will buy all the huge ass cars because a magazine told them to. The ones that have blind faith in bad leadership because it's the "patriotic" thing to do.
Stereotyping, even better. What a great way to make an argument.

so was every rich white man at the time. And that's not being corrupt, that's doing bad things. He actually gave all of his slaves their freedom when he died.
Actually, the ownership of slaves is inherently corrupt. It is extending near unlimited power over another person without reason or cause, so as to benefit yourself. That's pretty fucking corrupt in my personal opinion. And to hell with the fact that he freed them when he died. He was dead, a dead man cannot actively exercise any power over another human being.

If you were to stop being so narrow with your social associations you'd discover that these "stereotypical men" aren't quite so stereotypical. Once upon a time I thought that the world was primarily populated by stupid people and I refused to deal with those I'd deemed stupid. But you'd be surprised at who I discovered was not stupid.