NationStates Jolt Archive

Your not intolerant of redneck yokels now are you? :eek:
Yeah, well... why bother tolerating the intolerant? This is the reason I left the Unitarians, because I could no longer bear to suffer fools gladly.

Fuck 'em. They're morons, and don't deserve my (or anyone else's) empathy or respect.

If you're familiar with Keruvalia's posts, you'll find that he loves Texas, not America!


You are a hypocrite. Just because Mexicans can get into America illegally, you think they should?


You're such a USA-supremacist/exceptionalist.
Hey, I've got no problem if the mexicans want to move quickly and quietly to their destination of Canada. No problem whatsoever. I have a problem with them coming here illegally. Just as any beef that canada has with specific people who stay for long periods in the area of the Northwest passage would have a legitimate beef. But they don't they move on. This is not the case with illegal immigrants.

It seems that you were arguing that Mexicans shouldn't immigrate since it doesn't solve the problems of their homeland. By that reasoning no one should have immigrated to the New World and instead reformed those old European nations.

I think you're against immigration and just don't want to come out and say it.



No, actually I can trash the minutemen even if I too am against Mexican government corruption. The minutemen are (for example) a bunch of hypocritical redneck jock douchebags who think they are defending the nation and take their name arrogantly from people who actually did.
Again, you assume something of me that simply isn't true. You distort what I am saying inorder to better fit with your prejudice of me.

I never said they shouldn't immigrate. I said immigration doesn't solve the problem.

Let me spell it out for you again. Read carefully. I support legal immigration. I am opposed to illegal immigration.

I can't make it any clearer than that.

First off, do you know how long, hard, and complicated it is to apply for US citizenship, and accully get it? The process is long and costly. Far beyond the reach of a poor Mexican farmer.

It's not like the old days when you just lined up at Elis Island and told them you didn't have polio.

Second, what gives the "minuteman" the right to "patrol the baorders"? They are not the cops, they are not the military, they are not the boarder guard. Let them join one of those organizations, instead of just declaring themselves Gods of the boarders.

All I have seen the minutemen in my area do is try to scare off employers from hiring day laborers, people just trying to do work in exchange for money to feed their families.

I support legal immigration. I am opposed to illegal immigration.

That's a pretty arbitrary distinction, in my opinion.

The law isn't the same as right and wrong.

Listen you uneducated loser, America was built on the BACKS OF IMMIGRANTS, our entire history begins with IMMIGRANTS from Europe coming here to make a new and better life for themselves. Anyone who is ANTI-IMMIGRATION is ANTI-AMERICAN and completely ignorant.

These retarded yokels who think it is their "right" to patrol the borders are nothing more than intolerant rednecks. :upyours: :upyours:
You too don't seem to get it.

The only "uneducated loser" are the ones that can't understand the difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration.

Anyone who can't make that distinction, as evidenced by the statement:
Anyone who is ANTI-IMMIGRATION is ANTI-AMERICAN and completely ignorant.
is completely ignorant.

Oh, and your bigotry is showing.

That's a pretty arbitrary distinction, in my opinion.

The law isn't the same as right and wrong.
It's not arbitrary at all. We can't live by right and wrong because not everyone can agree what's right and what's wrong. We live by laws instead. I'm all for streamlining the immigration process to get rid of all the complications, but the answer isn't to just throw our borders wide open.

Can you show me the source?

sure, considering neiwert cites it before the block quote that's located in.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557

Bullshit. Imma call a BIG bullshit on this one. He routinely referrs to Mexicans as "savage?"

read it again, you missed a clause.

I do not accept anything from this blog as in anyway being valid at all.

that's nice.

"David Neiwert is a freelance journalist based in Seattle. He is the author of Strawberry Days: How Internment Destroyed a Japanese American Community (Palgrave/St. Martin's Press, June 2005), as well as Death on the Fourth of July: The Story of a Killing, a Trial, and Hate Crime in America, (Palgrave/St. Martin's, 2004), and In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest (1999, WSU Press). His reportage for MSNBC.com on domestic terrorism won the National Press Club Award for Distinguished Online Journalism in 2000. His freelance work can be found at Salon.com, the Washington Post, MSNBC and various other publications."

and this particular series is actually a paper given at a forum on the minutemen in bellingham, wa. you'll need some real reasons to get away from this one.

First off, do you know how long, hard, and complicated it is to apply for US citizenship, and accully get it? The process is long and costly. Far beyond the reach of a poor Mexican farmer.
Your argument doesn't make any sense. If it's far beyond the reach of a poor Mexican farmer, why is it that there is such a large population of legal immigrants that were once poor Mexican farmer?

It's not like the old days when you just lined up at Elis Island and told them you didn't have polio.
No, it isn't like the old days. Times change, laws change, situations change. This country can no longer support unlimited immigration. That is regretful.

Second, what gives the "minuteman" the right to "patrol the baorders"? They are not the cops, they are not the military, they are not the boarder guard. Let them join one of those organizations, instead of just declaring themselves Gods of the boarders.
Ok, what gives people the "right" to cross our border illegally?
And since the minutemen are not breaking any laws, they have every right to patrol the borders. They have every right, infact it is their duty to help prevent the breaking of laws.

All I have seen the minutemen in my area do is try to scare off employers from hiring day laborers, people just trying to do work in exchange for money to feed their families.
Stop the illegal hiring of illegal immigrants and you help reduce the "pull" effect that draws them here. Fix their home countries and you reduce the "push" effect. Then this whole argument becomes moot.

Ah, right. "Defense" against the "invasion" of Mexican workers. HOOAH.

Just another pathetic sign of the times when people like you actually see immigration as an attack. I blame it on the fact that America has never REALLY been invaded, so people like you have no real concept of what an invasion is.
Again, you jump to some conclusions that, withour your prejudice affecting you, you might not make.

He never said invasion. He used the term defense. Which could have many meanings. I assume he meant it in the defense of our laws. You automatically assume the "invasion" aspect.

Try to be a bit more objective.

Fix their home countries and you reduce the "push" effect. Then this whole argument becomes moot.
Stop the promulgation of ignorance as a widely-held American cultural value and then your whole argument becomes moot, too. And frankly, either endeavour is just as realistic as the other.

I'm not familiar with the Minutemen, but looking at their website, quotes like

"You have debated, you have begged, you have pleaded with your government officials -- public servants whom you trusted to stand by the oath they took when sworn into office to protect the United States from invasion by enemies foreign and domestic. The human flood breaching our Homeland Defense is not necessarily the enemy per se; drug dealers, criminals and potential terrorists are, and they should be the source of any ire you may be experiencing." (with the implication that this 'human flood' largely amounts to potential drug-dealers, criminals and terrorists...)
"Are you willing to sacrifice a few days, a week, a month to help do the job that the government should be doing?"
and
"You will offer your assistance and become force-multipliers to assist their monumental task of turning back the tidal wave of people entering our country illegally."

sound a lot like Vigilante rhetoric to me.

The fact that they've chosen to name themselves after a group of armed revolutionary militia also doesn't do much to inspire my confidence in them.

Frankly, if the US government's doing its best to keep potential immigrants out of arm's reach of these guys, it's doing a good job.

Yeah, well... why bother tolerating the intolerant? This is the reason I left the Unitarians, because I could no longer bear to suffer fools gladly.

Fuck 'em. They're morons, and don't deserve my (or anyone else's) empathy or respect.
The only morons are the ones who let their can't see past their prejudice.

And I'm sure they wouldn't lose any sleep not having your respect

More compete bullshit.

For example:
(snip)

I think I've given up on Free Soviets. He posts opinions as facts, lies and distorts to support his own bigotry.

There is no arguing with him. :shrug:

Stop the promulgation of ignorance as a widely-held American cultural value and then your whole argument becomes moot, too. And frankly, either endeavour is just as realistic as the other.
Wrong. My argument comes from the fact that the USA simply can't support unfettered immigration. We don't have the resources.
Make the process more liberal and streamlined. But control the flow.

I'm not familiar with the Minutemen, but looking at their website, quotes like

"You have debated, you have begged, you have pleaded with your government officials -- public servants whom you trusted to stand by the oath they took when sworn into office to protect the United States from invasion by enemies foreign and domestic. The human flood breaching our Homeland Defense is not necessarily the enemy per se; drug dealers, criminals and potential terrorists are, and they should be the source of any ire you may be experiencing." (with the implication that this 'human flood' largely amounts to potential drug-dealers, criminals and terrorists...)
"Are you willing to sacrifice a few days, a week, a month to help do the job that the government should be doing?"
and
"You will offer your assistance and become force-multipliers to assist their monumental task of turning back the tidal wave of people entering our country illegally."

sound a lot like Vigilante rhetoric to me.

The fact that they've chosen to name themselves after a group of armed revolutionary militia also doesn't do much to inspire my confidence in them.

Frankly, if the US government's doing its best to keep potential immigrants out of arm's reach of these guys, it's doing a good job.
Ok, what is it about watching the borders, contacting the appropriate authorities when witnessing illegal activities, providing aide and comfort to those who need it, makes them vigilanties?

"keep potential immigrants out of arm's reach of these guys" :rolleyes: they are not potential immigrants. They are illegalimmigrants.
The Minuteman do not harm the people they stop. They give food, water blankets as needed. They try not to detain on their own, they simply notify the authorities.

Quite listening to racist bigots who lie to support their own agendas.

Hey, I've got no problem if the mexicans want to move quickly and quietly to their destination of Canada. No problem whatsoever. I have a problem with them coming here illegally. Just as any beef that canada has with specific people who stay for long periods in the area of the Northwest passage would have a legitimate beef. But they don't they move on. This is not the case with illegal immigrants.
Thanks for explaining yourself. Your position makes sense now.

sure, considering neiwert cites it before the block quote that's located in.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557
He might as well have quoted himself.


[quote]read it again, you missed a clause.I read it. Post what I missed.



that's nice.

"David Neiwert is a freelance journalist based in Seattle. He is the author of Strawberry Days: How Internment Destroyed a Japanese American Community (Palgrave/St. Martin's Press, June 2005), as well as Death on the Fourth of July: The Story of a Killing, a Trial, and Hate Crime in America, (Palgrave/St. Martin's, 2004), and In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest (1999, WSU Press). His reportage for MSNBC.com on domestic terrorism won the National Press Club Award for Distinguished Online Journalism in 2000. His freelance work can be found at Salon.com, the Washington Post, MSNBC and various other publications."

and this particular series is actually a paper given at a forum on the minutemen in bellingham, wa. you'll need some real reasons to get away from this one.
I read his credentials when I read his blog. Doesn't mean anything to me. I want to see the original sources of these statements. I do not trust him at all. I have seen "journalists" lie plenty and this guy has an extremely obvious bias. If this woman, for example, that heads that organization really does describe Mexicans as Savage, then post the entire quote including the context within which it was given.

Illegal immigrants are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime in the city of Los Angeles.

Now you can go ahead and say, "PD says Mexicans commit more crime than other races," when you know full well that's not what I said. This guy's blog seems to be full of that kind of bullshit.

Fuck those laws. I believe that disobeying stupid law is more important.
I'm sure those in the WTC felt just the same way as you when illegals rammed a plane into the Towers.

The immigration laws need ENFORCEMENT. If the government won't do it, it is the right and the duty of the citizens of this nation to perform the action.

Ok, what is it about watching the borders, contacting the appropriate authorities when witnessing illegal activities, providing aide and comfort to those who need it, makes them vigilanties?

"keep potential immigrants out of arm's reach of these guys" :rolleyes: they are not potential immigrants. They are illegalimmigrants.
The Minuteman do not harm the people they stop. They give food, water blankets as needed. They try not to detain on their own, they simply notify the authorities.

Quite listening to racist bigots who lie to support their own agendas.

Eh, perhaps I'm just a little too used to having to read between the lines. :rolleyes:

I'm sure those in the WTC felt just the same way as you when illegals rammed a plane into the Towers.

The immigration laws need ENFORCEMENT. If the government won't do it, it is the right and the duty of the citizens of this nation to perform the action.
While I agree with you ont eh enforcement, just to correct a minor misconception: most of the 9/11 terrorists were here legally.

I'm sure those in the WTC felt just the same way as you when illegals rammed a plane into the Towers.


And there you have it, folks. Dragging up the ghost of 9/11 to make stupid comparisons designed to get people to emotionally jump on your bigoted, xenophobic viewpoint. Immigrants = terrorists.


The immigration laws need ENFORCEMENT. If the government won't do it, it is the right and the duty of the citizens of this nation to perform the action.

O RLY?

I guess I'll wait for you to make a citizens arrest next time you catch me going 67 in a 65 MPH zone. SPEEDERS R TERRORIZT!

Your not intolerant of redneck yokels now are you? :eek:
Can't we go one debate without a conservative calling a liberal "intolerant". Refusing to be a wishy-washy relativist and criticising nothing is not being intolerant.

So you agree that it's a crime to find work - by whatever means possible - to feed your kids?

You hate children and hate everything American.

anyone esle see this and start thinking

":rolleyes: this is getting pathetic"

or maybe your smarter then me and already knew it was pathetic

I guess I'll wait for you to make a citizens arrest next time you catch me going 67 in a 65 MPH zone. SPEEDERS R TERRORIZT!
Nope, citizens can't arrest for petty offences or ordinances.

It's not arbitrary at all. We can't live by right and wrong because not everyone can agree what's right and what's wrong. We live by laws instead. I'm all for streamlining the immigration process to get rid of all the complications, but the answer isn't to just throw our borders wide open.


I see no reason why not.

I still maintain that, in the case of immigration, legal v. illigal is a quite arbitrary line to draw. In many cases, the law is indeed a very good line to draw, most I'd even say. But not here.

Nope, citizens can't arrest for petty offences or ordinances.

Well, NO WONDER there is so much speeding going on. The traitorous government is tying our hands. Help, where's the Minutemen to defend us from speeders? The police aren't - or can't - do anything about it, we NEED people to take up the law in their own hands!

Is there an official Minuteman shirt?



















Is it coloured brown?

I want to see the original sources of these statements. I do not trust him at all. I have seen "journalists" lie plenty and this guy has an extremely obvious bias.

and yet you yourself just recently cited (half-assedly) some of these lying untrustworthy journalists. interesting.

when do journalists writing in news papers or reporting on tv ever directly cite sources? in blog form it's actually better than usual, as it does link to sources. if you want to dismiss the sources he relies on, you are going to have to do even more work demonstrating a good reasons. and based on your performance thus far, i don't rate your qualifications to make such judgements too highly.

New Granada's Polish comment was not funny because I never mentioned anything about race. I said illegal alien every time, never Hispanic.

Canada is equally as troubling as mexico int erms of border security, and the Minutement patrol both borders. A few of the 9/11 hijackers came through Canada. One of the '93 WTC bombers came throug Mexico.

If you disagree with me, fine. Just don't lie or put words in my mouth.

Listen you uneducated loser, America was built on the BACKS OF IMMIGRANTS, our entire history begins with IMMIGRANTS from Europe coming here to make a new and better life for themselves. Anyone who is ANTI-IMMIGRATION is ANTI-AMERICAN and completely ignorant.

These retarded yokels who think it is their "right" to patrol the borders are nothing more than intolerant rednecks. :upyours: :upyours:
Stop equating immigration with illegal immigration. It's confusing, unhelpful, and intellectually dishonest.

I think he's referrring to vigilantism. Which is quite illegal.
"Vigilantism" isn't a legal definition of any particular act.

I wonder how it would be if American tourists chose to ilegally cross the Mexican border into Mexico ? How would that situation play out?
Just cross over, no ID or documents, have a vacation and return to the US when they were done.
They would spend a very long time in a Mexican prison.

The best way to fight an unjust law is to demonstrate it's futility and to violate it in protest.
God, I love that quote! :D

The story being floated out there is that the US government tipped off the Mexican government on the whereabouts of the Minutemen on the US border with Mexico. If this is true this is outrageous. Also I heard on a news program from that the Minutemen organizers have been spied on by Mexican spies. I know this sounds a bit out there. This is what they are saying. So what to make of this. This would be a serious issue if it were in fact true.

http://wizbangblog.com/2006/05/09/us-border-control-gives-minutemen-locations-to-mexican-government.php

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3799653


Official Minuteman Site.
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/
Well, well, well. So the goverment has finaly desided to put down the minitemen? It's about time, racism shouldn't be allowed! I understand thare stated misstion and support it, but what about the shadowy Canadians?
Protect both our borders!
Down with the menitmen!
Fools.

All but two. In anycase, I guess if they were here legally that means that no one who wants to harm the US would exploit our lack of border security to enter. Thy would probably just say, "Most of the 9/11 hijackers were in the US legally so we should not just walk over the southern border even though that would be the easiest way."

And since the hijackers got here by the legal means, posing as students, imagine who else could or has gotten in undocumented.

Well, NO WONDER there is so much speeding going on. The traitorous government is tying our hands. Help, where's the Minutemen to defend us from speeders? The police aren't - or can't - do anything about it, we NEED people to take up the law in their own hands!
:D
Best I've seen today - and in this thread!

Well, NO WONDER there is so much speeding going on. The traitorous government is tying our hands. Help, where's the Minutemen to defend us from speeders? The police aren't - or can't - do anything about it, we NEED people to take up the law in their own hands!


How are the Minutemen taking the law into their own hands again?

You'd have your average naive fan thinking they were acting against the law.

How are the Minutemen taking the law into their own hands again?

You'd have your average naive fan thinking they were acting against the law.


Alot of naive information being spread about the minutemen. Haven't heard of read of one source stating that they do anything but just report movements on the border. Would be no different than someone calling in a drunk driver or excessive speeder on the freeway via a cell phone to the state patrol.

I am intolerant of ignorance, stupidity and racism.

As am I. Just calling it how I see it. :)