NationStates Jolt Archive

The story being floated out there is that the US government tipped off the Mexican government on the whereabouts of the Minutemen on the US border with Mexico. If this is true this is outrageous. Also I heard on a news program from that the Minutemen organizers have been spied on by Mexican spies. I know this sounds a bit out there. This is what they are saying. So what to make of this. This would be a serious issue if it were in fact true.

http://wizbangblog.com/2006/05/09/us-border-control-gives-minutemen-locations-to-mexican-government.php

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3799653


Official Minuteman Site.
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/

Ummmm ... yeah!

"Hey, bro. There's a group of illegal vigilantes hanging around here, here, and here. Might not be a good idea to have your nationals go to those places."

Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care.

The militia men need to be hung by their toes with barbed wire.

Kudos to whoever warns border jumpers as to the movements of these groups. Kudos and many blessings.

I know I sure as Hell wouldn't want a pack of armed, slack-jawed yokels prowling around. Anywhere. But more to the point, I wouldn't want them to wind up in the same place as those they target - and if I were in the right part of the civil service, you're darned right I'd let Mexican authorities know what was what.

Well gee wiz, they're a bunch of civilians who don't know the law, they don't know the international teaties that govern situations like this, they are not trained to handle anything that comes up, and they apparently aren't to worried that should anything happen between them and an immigrant, legal or non, they will be in a world of hurt.

I'd say Border Patrol was doing them a favor.

The story being floated out there is that the US government tipped off the Mexican government on the whereabouts of the Minutemen on the US border with Mexico. If this is true this is outrageous.

What is so outrageous about one government passing on information about its citizens to another government? Should the US government act so as to block all information about the whereabouts and activities of US citizens from leaving the country? If so you're going to need one heck of a big wall.

Why does Canada never get this information until it's way too late to be of any use? I mean come on, we've got a bigger border than those taco eating bastards therfore we've got to deal with more Minutemen. How I am I supposed to jump the fence to the Land of the Free without the locations of Minutemen in hand?

the minutemen were also convinced that their camp was going to be attacked any second now by the mexican government/armed gangs of illegals.

nazis = delusional fucktards

Ummmm ... yeah!

"Hey, bro. There's a group of illegal vigilantes hanging around here, here, and here. Might not be a good idea to have your nationals go to those places."

Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care.

The militia men need to be hung by their toes with barbed wire.

Kudos to whoever warns border jumpers as to the movements of these groups. Kudos and many blessings.
The Minutemen are not illegal, and have never shot anyone, you criminal-supporting, America-hating liar.

Here is what is alleged to be proof that this has happened

http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/Default.htm

The Minutemen are not illegal, and have never shot anyone, you criminal-supporting, America-hating liar.

Right, it's them Mexicans that are illegal, bein' Mexican and all...


Sorry, but that was by far the funniest thing since Jesus.

Here is what is alleged to be proof that this has happened

http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/Default.htm
I don't read Spanish, but I can recongize the perjorative "Vigilantisimo", and quite frankly, given the Mexican government regularly aids and abets its nationals in defrauding the United States government and violating United States law, I would take anything they say about the Minuteman Projection with a very large grain of salt.

Good for whoever leaked. The last thing we need is a bunch of vigilante rednecks patroling the border and shooting at people who are guilty of no reasonable crime.

Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care.
Been on the DU lately have you?

The Minutemen are not illegal, and have never shot anyone, you criminal-supporting, America-hating liar.

So you agree that it's a crime to find work - by whatever means possible - to feed your kids?

You hate children and hate everything American.

Its a good idea, those "minute man project" people are a clown act.

So you agree that it's a crime to find work - by whatever means possible - to feed your kids?
It's a crime to violate American immigration laws, regardless of the reason.

Been on the DU lately have you?

Nah ... but I'm one of those crazy people who feels that feeding a baby matters more than national borders.

Guess I'm a traitor.

The Minutemen are not illegal, and have never shot anyone, you criminal-supporting, America-hating liar.

AHAHAHA! The poster dislikes the Minutemen, so automatically he obviously hates the US. Sheer brilliant deductions, Sherlock.

I'll admit that I'm sceptical about all of this though, seeing as how no credible source has released a report. I'll wait and see if it gets picked up by a more credible source before I start forming opinions.

It's a crime to violate American immigration laws, regardless of the reason.

Fuck those laws. I believe that disobeying stupid law is more important.

Or ... do you believe "I was just following orders" should have been a good defense for Nazi soldiers?

Nah ... but I'm one of those crazy people who feels that feeding a baby matters more than national borders.

Guess I'm a traitor.

Ok, I can see that - as long as we give burglars and robbers the same leniency.

Honestly, I understand that things are tough in Mexico. I'm sorry to hear that, but that is no reason that we should just allow millions of people to break our laws every day with relative impunity.

EDIT: That right is reserved for Congress and the Presidency.

Fuck those laws. I believe that disobeying stupid law is more important.

Or ... do you believe "I was just following orders" should have been a good defense for Nazi soldiers?
Yes, becuase enforcing a country's national sovereignty is the precise moral equivilent of committing genocide. o.O

You want to blame someone for starving Mexicans? Blame Mexico's historically corrupt government and moronic psuedo-socialist economic policies.

So you agree that it's a crime to find work - by whatever means possible - to feed your kids?

You hate children and hate everything American.
Mexicans obviously are immigrating to the US because they hate Jesus, and well as American family values. They naturally care nothing for their children, and probably only keep them because they intend to eat or molest them at some point in the future.

I must say I am astonished at your reaction to honest hardworking Americans defending their God-given land with Remington bolt-action rifles from immigrants and homosexuals. If you disagree you hate freedom and are probably a terrorist.







... I'm joking in case it wasn't obvious ...

AHAHAHA! The poster dislikes the Minutemen, so automatically he obviously hates the US. Sheer brilliant deductions, Sherlock.
The poster has clearly stated that they don't give a damn about the United States' borders, territorial soveriegnty or national security.

Ok, I can see that - as long as we give burglars and robbers the same leniency.

So you're comparing a man who travels a little to find a job to feed his kid with a man who breaks into someone's home to steal his rolex?

Ummmm ... yeah!

"Hey, bro. There's a group of illegal vigilantes hanging around here, here, and here. Might not be a good idea to have your nationals go to those places."

Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care.

The militia men need to be hung by their toes with barbed wire.

Kudos to whoever warns border jumpers as to the movements of these groups. Kudos and many blessings.
Amen, brudda.

Fuck those laws. I believe that disobeying stupid law is more important.

Or ... do you believe "I was just following orders" should have been a good defense for Nazi soldiers?

Well you need some regulations on immigration to have sovereign borders..

These laws are healthy for our nation in many ways. I'm not anti-immigrant, as they are beneficial to us, but I do not like this "pack your local '74 Volkswagon with 30 people and dump them across the border" thing.

All immigrants should go through the legal processes and become citizens like every other damn country out there. Compared to quite a few European countries at least, the U.S. is quite liberal on immigration policy.

So you're comparing a man who travels a little to find a job to feed his kid with a man who breaks into someone's home to steal his rolex?

Absolutely. In both cases, the person in question is breaking a law. Whether he is an American citizen or not is irrelevant. The burglar may or may not have kids to feed, just as the illegal immigrant may or may not have kids to feed.

Either way, the law is being broken.

The poster has clearly stated that they don't give a damn about the United States' borders, territorial soveriegnty or national security.

By denouncing a band of vigiliantes that want to open fire on Mexican immigrants?

I must say I am astonished at your reaction to honest hardworking Americans defending their God-given land with Remington bolt-action rifles from immigrants and homosexuals. If you disagree you hate freedom and are probably a terrorist.

.[/SIZE]
The only things the Minutemen are using to defending America are binoculars, radios, and lawn chairs.

By denouncing a band of vigiliantes that want to open fire on Mexican immigrants?
Again, the Minutemen are not shooting at illegal Mexican immigrants!

So you agree that it's a crime to find work - by whatever means possible - to feed your kids?

You hate children and hate everything American.
By paying people to take them illegally across the border they are supporting corruption, graft, gun running, and drug running, along with various organized crime cabals. You can't seem to get that through your head. Most of the minute men would be perfectly content if the rules for becoming an immigrant were relaxed and the process was streamlined. The problem is that it's illegal, and so a whole bunch of shit comes across the border besides people, and many of the people are violent felons that do come across besides all the rest. The fact that you seem to think they're violent is in itself laughable. Not even the idiots following them around have any reason to claim that.

The poster has clearly stated that they don't give a damn about the United States' borders, territorial soveriegnty or national security.

Current Immigration laws are biased, xenophobic and unfair. They follow the same closed-mindedness that has existed in the US since the 1890's. They are shameful, Un-American (for real, not in the Right Wing's little fantasy world) that do run contrary to the ideals this nation was founded upon. Though we have replaced "National Quotas" with "Value to the US", the same pricipal of subtly enforced racism remains.

Until such a time as a reform in Immigration laws occurs, I shall applaud the actions of those who defy the wrongness of the system in the name of feeding and caring for their families.

Keruv, you're getting pretty close to a godwin ^_^

I think the Minutemen are doing a good thing, helping enforce the laws that the police just don't have the resources to do. The minutemen havn't done anything illegal, afaik.

I'm not against immigration. But illegal immigration is a different thing. There are people who wait for years to immigrate into the country, legally. Those who do it illegally are just making the wait longer for these people who try to go through the process. How is that fair? Somebody in, say, thailand, waits for ten years, and some mexican jumps a fence? Is that fair?

Absolutely. In both cases, the person in question is breaking a law. Whether he is an American citizen or not is irrelevant. The burglar may or may not have kids to feed, just as the illegal immigrant may or may not have kids to feed.

Either way, the law is being broken.

"The law" is irrelevant to morality.

Absolutely. In both cases, the person in question is breaking a law. Whether he is an American citizen or not is irrelevant. The burglar may or may not have kids to feed, just as the illegal immigrant may or may not have kids to feed.

Either way, the law is being broken.

Immigration is a victimless crime. Robbery is not.

There's a big difference there.

Keruv, you're getting pretty close to a godwin ^_^

I think the Minutemen are doing a good thing, helping enforce the laws that the police just don't have the resources to do. The minutemen havn't done anything illegal, afaik.

I'm not against immigration. But illegal immigration is a different thing. There are people who wait for years to immigrate into the country, legally. Those who do it illegally are just making the wait longer for these people who try to go through the process. How is that fair? Somebody in, say, thailand, waits for ten years, and some mexican jumps a fence? Is that fair?

You have a perfectly valid point. But the Minutemen just reek of vigiliantism and a situation just waiting to explode with gunfire or murder of somekind.

Now if only Mexico would reciprocate and tell us where those fugitives they refuse to extradite are...

Come on kiddies, I'm all for liberalized immigration law, but could WE at least get to violate MEXICO'S borders and laws once in a while?

The poster has clearly stated that they don't give a damn about the United States' borders, territorial soveriegnty or national security.

Maybe you should read Keruvalia's post again, as I have yet to find the clearly stated section regarding their don't give a damn position on border security and soveriegnty. Here, I'll even provide it for you so you don't have to scroll all that way:

Ummmm ... yeah!

"Hey, bro. There's a group of illegal vigilantes hanging around here, here, and here. Might not be a good idea to have your nationals go to those places."

Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care.

The militia men need to be hung by their toes with barbed wire.

Kudos to whoever warns border jumpers as to the movements of these groups. Kudos and many blessings.

Current Immigration laws are biased, xenophobic and unfair. They follow the same closed-mindedness that has existed in the US since the 1890's. .
Even if all of that were true -- which it isn't -- the elected representatives of the citizenry of the United States have every right and authority -- nay, duty -- to enact and enforce laws protecting the sovereignty of the United States. If you disagree with those laws, then exercise your free speech and your democratic franchise to try to change them.

But these laws are perfectly constitutional, and thus there is NO excuse for violating them, or for advocating same. To do so undermines the democratic process of the United States, and it is an inviation to anarchy.

Now if only Mexico would reciprocate and tell us where those fugitives they refuse to extradite are...

Come on kiddies, I'm all for liberalized immigration law, but could WE at least get to violate MEXICO'S borders and laws once in a while?

Mexico should adhere to a policy of open borders, too.

Absolutely amazing.

"I want to feed my kids" is a crime.

"Iraq has WMDs and I'm lieing about it" is not a crime.

Fuck America. That's all I have to say about that.

Also, the Minutemen are not shooting illegal immigrants. They are basically privatized law enforcement who are not ruled by corruption and bureaucratic bullshit. They are doing the job that the Border patrol SHOULD be doing.

Immigration is a victimless crime. Robbery is not.

There's a big difference there.
Bullshit. The amount of legal immigrants allowed in the US per year is based partly upon the amount of illegal immigrants that were estimated to come in from the last year. The relationship between the two is inverse. Ergo it is far from a victimless crime like you purport.

Ummmm ... yeah!

"Hey, bro. There's a group of illegal vigilantes hanging around here, here, and here. Might not be a good idea to have your nationals go to those places.". There's no law saying that you must stay away from the Mexican Border.

Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care. Who have they killed? You have any evidence? Wait you don't.



The militia men need to be hung by their toes with barbed wire.
Kudos to whoever warns border jumpers as to the movements of these groups. Kudos and many blessings.
Now you're just as bad as you SAY they are. I love the ignorance. While I think their ideal is a little illogical in how to stop it I see nothing wrong with them guarding the border as long as people like you say there is no border.

Even if all of that were true -- which it isn't -- the elected representatives of the citizenry of the United States have every right and authority -- nay, duty -- to enact and enforce laws protecting the sovereignty of the United States. If you disagree with those laws, then exercise your free speech and your democratic franchise to try to change them.

But these laws are perfectly constitutional, and thus there is NO excuse for violating them, or for advocating same. To do so undermines the democratic process of the United States, and it is an inviation to anarchy.

The US population has no right to restrict the freedom of movement of Mexicans or any other nationality. To do so is to promote inequality; it is to say that we are better than you, and thus we have the right to preserve our privileges.

Fuck America. That's all I have to say about that.
Exits are at California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

Bullshit. The amount of legal immigrants allowed in the US per year is based partly upon the amount of illegal immigrants that were estimated to come in from the last year. The relationship between the two is inverse. Ergo it is far from a victimless crime like you purport.

Then don't blame illegal immigrants, blame stupid rules like that one.

Maybe if Mexico would, you know... End it's cockeyed land-reform laws, the Mexican farmers wouldn't have to go to the US for a job. If the Mexican government wants to feed its people, they should try doing it at home before literally sending their problems to America.

Even if all of that were true -- which it isn't -- the elected representatives of the citizenry of the United States have every right and authority -- nay, duty -- to enact and enforce laws protecting the sovereignty of the United States. If you disagree with those laws, then exercise your free speech and your democratic franchise to try to change them.

But these laws are perfectly constitutional, and thus there is NO excuse for violating them, or for advocating same. To do so undermines the democratic process of the United States, and it is an inviation to anarchy.

It IS true (welcome to the real world, where the US has had a restricted immigration system since the late 1890's and where some people wait decades for their number to come up). Immigration Quotas violate the principles we state on our Statue of Liberty "Give me your poor... etc." and replace them with "You can come as long as you're a clone like us!".

The best way to fight an unjust law is to demonstrate it's futility and to violate it in protest.

Bullshit. The amount of legal immigrants allowed in the US per year is based partly upon the amount of illegal immigrants that were estimated to come in from the last year. The relationship between the two is inverse. Ergo it is far from a victimless crime like you purport.
Who is the victim, and what is the damge?

The US population has no right to restrict the freedom of movement of Mexicans or any other nationality. To do so is to promote inequality; it is to say that we are better than you, and thus we have the right to preserve our privileges.
Bulldren. Americans, as the citizens of a soveriegn and independent nation, have every right to control who passes through their nation's borders. One of the definitions of a nation-state is that it exercises control over it's national borders.

Now you're just as bad as you SAY they are. I love the ignorance. While I think their ideal is a little illogical in how to stop it I see nothing wrong with them guarding the border as long as people like you say there is no border.

Yes ... yes ... and I know you and your family have been sooooo hurt by some Mexican coming here on US soil to dig a ditch or lay a few bricks that you cannot live anymore and that your family is now subject to slavery and must only live on what they can make and that your daughters can only be married to 49 year old "Lords".

Yes ... all those illlegal landscape workers have defiled your way of life ...


*coff*

Bullshit. The amount of legal immigrants allowed in the US per year is based partly upon the amount of illegal immigrants that were estimated to come in from the last year. The relationship between the two is inverse. Ergo it is far from a victimless crime like you purport.

Then maybe we had better do away with moronic laws like the one that creates those ques, now hadn't we?

Then don't blame illegal immigrants, blame stupid rules like that one.
Ah yes, because realizing that unchecked immigration would crash the economy as well as the soveregnity of a country being important to it being a seperate country is sooooooo stupid. Right up there with the realization that communism doesn't work and that pacifists would be slaughtered left and right if there weren't others protecting them.

So you're comparing a man who travels a little to find a job to feed his kid with a man who breaks into someone's home to steal his rolex? They are breaking into this country to steal it's services.

Just a person sneaking across into someone elses house,taking up space, eating out of their Fridge, stealing from the their First-aid Kit, taking the petty cash, adding extra kids for the teacher, and on top of that, when people tell them that they wore out their welcome, they prance around shouting.


Yes ... all those illlegal landscape workers have defiled your way of life ...
Everywhere I go I see more and more stupid Cookiecutter houses popping up right and left, those damn Instant neighborhoods with houses so crappyly built that I wouldn't stay in if you paid me. If for some reason that a lack of Illegals would mean that these houses wouldn't get made. Then the enviroment of where I'm from might actually survive. With no Pavers you can't pave Paradise to put up Parking lots.

Bulldren. Americans, as the citizens of a soveriegn and independent nation, have every right to control who passes through their nation's borders. One of the definitions of a nation-state is that it exercises control over it's national borders.

I do not support nation-states.

Though the United States is sovereign, it still has no right to, say, slaughter its Jewish population, however many people vote for it. Similarly, it has no right to promote inequality and protect entrenched privilege.

They are breaking into this country to steal it's services..

No they are not, you White ass piece of shit.

:D

Ah yes, because realizing that unchecked immigration would crash the economy as well as the soveregnity of a country being important to it being a seperate country is sooooooo stupid.

Much legal immigration is extremely helpful to the economy, since it involves taking human capital from the rest of the world.

Who is the victim, and what is the damge?
Well, let's see, all of the people on the imigration lists, and in quite a few cases it can result in the death of someone who because they have something known as moral integrity and wasn't able to immigrate sooner because the # was kept low to offset illegal immigration. Among other things. As I noted earlier, the avenues of immigration taken by illegal immigrants lend themselves to other illegal activites which certainly aren't victimless.

Bulldren. Americans, as the citizens of a soveriegn and independent nation, have every right to control who passes through their nation's borders. One of the definitions of a nation-state is that it exercises control over it's national borders.

Do you then agree the USA has no right to use the the Northwest passage in northern Canada and must respect Canada's right to exercise control over that particular section of the Arctic?

unchecked immigration would crash the economy

evidence?

Much legal immigration is extremely helpful to the economy, since it involves taking human capital from the rest of the world.
Who said it didn't?

I do not support nation-states.

Though the United States is sovereign, it still has no right to, say, slaughter its Jewish population, however many people vote for it. Similarly, it has no right to promote inequality and protect entrenched privilege.

Abseloutely. It has no right to promote inequality AMONG ITS CITIZENS. Does the Constitution apply outside the US in other countries? No. So foreign nationals do NOT have the same rights and privileges as actual Americans, and thus are not subject to the 14th Amendment or any other equality laws. If America wants to protect the privileges of its citizens against foreign nationals, it's perfectly fine.

Do you then agree the USA has no right to use the the Northwest passage in northern Canada and must respect Canada's right to exercise control over that particular section of the Arctic?

No, it doesn't. But that doesn't stop America from trying, and well, succeeding.

Do you then agree the USA has no right to use the the Northwest passage in northern Canada and must respect Canada's right to exercise control over that particular section of the Arctic?
As soon as you can stop our subs going through that area you can claim it. Oh that's right, you can't. So sorry. The big difference is that if our government would get off it's ass we could easily stop 99.99% of the illegal immigration. But they won't, because it's a republic system, and the problem has been going on too long and too many amnesties have been given, allowing a large enough illegal immigrant descended pertion of the population to form a voting bloc.

No they are not, you White ass piece of shit.

:D
Yes they are. They get sick and go to the hospital and can't afford it, who pays for it? The Taxpayers.
If their kid gets put in a foster home because of a crappy parent who pays for it? The Taxpayers.
There is a school that's being built near where I live just because of the Mass increase of Illegal Immigrant kids, anyone want to bet on who's foots that bill? The Taxpayers.

Check and Mate Bitch! Thank you please try again.

Does the Constitution apply outside the US in other countries? No.

Who said anything about the Constitution?

No, it doesn't. But that doesn't stop America from trying, and well, succeeding.

Just as it doesn't stop illegal immigrants from trying and, well, succeeding on entering the USA.

As soon as you can stop our subs going through that area you can claim it. Oh that's right, you can't. So sorry. The big difference is that if our government would get off it's ass we could easily stop 99.99% of the illegal immigration. But they won't, because it's a republic system, and the problem has been going on too long and too many amnesties have been given, allowing a large enough illegal immigrant descended pertion of the population to form a voting bloc.
Wow. Might makes Right. That's how obsolete?

Who said anything about the Constitution?
Nobody. I'm making a comparison. Mexicans do not have the same rights as Americans. For that to be possible, American law would have to apply universally. My point is that people IN Mexico do not have legal equality with Americans, because the 14th Amendment and other anti-discrimination laws do not apply to them. Giving the rights of Americans to Mexicans outside of the US doesn't work unless Mexico is part of the US and accepts the US constitution.

Just as it doesn't stop illegal immigrants from trying and, well, succeeding on entering the USA.

Exactly. But the US has the RIGHT to enforce that border, but does not, just as Canada does.

Ummmm ... yeah!

"Hey, bro. There's a group of illegal vigilantes hanging around here, here, and here. Might not be a good idea to have your nationals go to those places."

Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care.

The militia men need to be hung by their toes with barbed wire.

Kudos to whoever warns border jumpers as to the movements of these groups. Kudos and many blessings.

Ummmmm...yeah!

"Illegal vigilantes"? Where? What innocent men and women have been shot?

Militia? What militia?

Oh- wait...This was just pure bullshit, wasnt it?

Sounds good for those that want to hear it, unfortunately, though-totally lacking of any factual material.

And how much are the "kudos and many blessings" doled out by a bullshitter worth?

As soon as you can stop our subs going through that area you can claim it. Oh that's right, you can't. So sorry. The big difference is that if our government would get off it's ass we could easily stop 99.99% of the illegal immigration. But they won't, because it's a republic system, and the problem has been going on too long and too many amnesties have been given, allowing a large enough illegal immigrant descended pertion of the population to form a voting bloc.

And just as soon as you can prevent illegal immigration you can claim your border is secure. Oh wait you can't because....
But they won't, because it's a republic system, and the problem has been going on too long and too many amnesties have been given, allowing a large enough illegal immigrant descended pertion of the population to form a voting bloc.

Nobody. I'm making a comparison. Mexicans do not have the same rights as Americans. For that to be possible, American law would have to apply universally.

Rights aren't granted by laws; they are inherent in our humanity.

The crimes of despots may be perfectly "legal," but they still violate people's rights.

No they are not, you White ass piece of shit.

:D


Wow- you're freaking kidding, right?

No they are not, you White ass piece of shit.

:D
If you really wanted to accomplish anything, you would campaign to end the rampant corruption going on in Mexico and indeed most of Latin-America. You would champion reform in those countries so that there would be no need to come to the USA to find jobs and the whole issue of illegal immigration would be moot.

But no, you are a hate filled "piece of shit" who would rather spew rhetoric than do anything good.

Get a life and go do something productive.

The Minutemen project seems, like many of the other measures, another band-aid stuck on a hemophiliac. Also, so far they've apparently just called in reports of illegal immigration, not actually shot at anyone. There's certainly some unpleasant supernationalist and racist undertones, though.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, you need to reduce the push and pull factors, not just ship them back home as soon as they get here. It's like trying to dam up a running faucet.

Immigrants come here because companies will hire them, and it's more profitable for those companies to hire workers who will tolerate poor working conditions and substandard pay or benefits. They also come here because the substandard pay and working conditions aren't as substandard as in their own country.

Sorry if that's a tad off-topic, but the topic's killing my braincells quicker than a cellphone's radiation.

Rights aren't granted by laws; they are inherent in our humanity.

Freedom of unrestricted, international movement is not a universal right. That is why, say, invading Iraq without justification is still illegal. Otherwise people could just drive tanks wherever they pleased because it was 'inherent in their humanity'.

Wow. Might makes Right. That's how obsolete?
Hmmm, could you consider running subs through a large area of water as a means of keeping that area as international waters when no actual threat of force is used as might makes right? If the canadians could even track the subs we might cede the fact that they are international waters, but they can't. So too bad, so sad, no money from tolls for Canadia.

If you really wanted to accomplish anything, you would campaign to end the rampant corruption going on in Mexico and indeed most of Latin-America. You would champion reform in those countries so that there would be no need to come to the USA to find jobs and the whole issue of illegal immigration would be moot.

But no, you are a hate filled "piece of shit" who would rather spew rhetoric rather than do anything good.

Get a life and go do something productive.

Epsilon Squadron, may I introduce to you.... humour.

Absolutely amazing.

"I want to feed my kids" is a crime.

"Iraq has WMDs and I'm lieing about it" is not a crime.

Fuck America. That's all I have to say about that.


Nah- Fuck all the psuedo hippie wanna-bees that continually shift and flap in a never ending attempt to undermine and corrode the very things that made America strong.
Fuck the self loathers who cant stand themselves and continually try to cast blame on others.

Freedom of unrestricted, international movement is not a universal right. That is why, say, invading Iraq is still illegal.

Legality is irrelevant.

If the US soldiers had gone to Iraq to seek work, I would have had no problem with it.

"Unrestricted international movement" is not a universal right, no. But basic human equality is, and thus unjustified promotion of one group of people at the expense of another violates the rights of the latter group.

Freedom of unrestricted, international movement is not a universal right. That is why, say, invading Iraq without justification is still illegal. Otherwise people could just drive tanks wherever they pleased because it was 'inherent in their humanity'.
Actually, given international law alone, and ignoring the UN which has absolutely no bearing on the legality of the situation we could have invaded Iraq at any point after they broke the cease-fire. Ergo it was perfectly legal.

Do you then agree the USA has no right to use the the Northwest passage in northern Canada and must respect Canada's right to exercise control over that particular section of the Arctic?
Yes, I do.

Legality is irrelevant.

If the US soldiers had gone to Iraq to seek work, I would have had no problem with it.

"Unrestricted international movement" is not a universal right, no. But basic human equality is, and thus unjustified promotion of one group of people at the expense of another violates the rights of the latter group.

Too broad. If a group of people own property, they have the right to restrict those who enter it. Since the American people have sovereignty over land, they can choose who comes into it or not, much as a family can choose who can and cannot come into their house.

Hmmm, could you consider running subs through a large area of water as a means of keeping that area as international waters when no actual threat of force is used as might makes right? If the canadians could even track the subs we might cede the fact that they are international waters, but they can't. So too bad, so sad, no money from tolls for Canadia.
The Northwest Passage is no more an international waterway than is the Mississippi river.

Hmmm, could you consider running subs through a large area of water as a means of keeping that area as international waters when no actual threat of force is used as might makes right?
Well, since your post consisted of "we can do it because they can't stop us"...

If the US soldiers had gone to Iraq to seek work, I would have had no problem with it.
Well, they were engaged in work. :p

Too broad. If a group of people own property, they have the right to restrict those who enter it. Since the American people have sovereignty over land, they can choose who comes into it or not, much as a family can choose who can and cannot come into their house.

If you're going to invoke national sovereignty over land, we're all thieves, and the only people who have any rights in this respect are currently in reservations.

If you're going to invoke national sovereignty over land, we're all thieves, and the only people who have any rights in this respect are currently in reservations.

Irrelevant. Native Americans did not have much of a concept of land 'ownership' in any case. While I admit we were wrong in doing so, if they didn't claim the land as their own, it wasn't really theirs. You're comparing apples to oranges trying to apply modern international law to a group of people that did not follow its conventions during an incident when international law did not exist.

And again, the Americans were 'coming for work', so I guess it was all OK.

Wow- you're freaking kidding, right?
Don't mind Keruvalia, he's just mad because I broke his self made illusions.

If you're going to invoke national sovereignty over land, we're all thieves, and the only people who have any rights in this respect are currently in reservations.

dont forget many splitting billions in tax free casino money.

Irrelevant. Native Americans did not have much of a concept of land 'ownership' in any case. While I admit we were wrong in doing so, if they didn't claim the land as their own, it wasn't really theirs. You're comparing apples to oranges trying to apply modern international law to a group of people that did not follow its conventions during an incident when international law did not exist.

Actually, it's more like comparing apples and hexadecimal as apples and oranges can be compared.

http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html

dont forget many splitting billions in tax free casino money.

Well gee, that just makes up for the whole 'destruction of their heritage and murder of their ancestors' completely. :P

Don't mind Keruvalia, he's just mad because I broke his self made illusions.

Oh-I dont. Not after some serious credibilty issues a while back.

I'm still surprised any time he shrieks though.

Actually, it's more like comparing apples and hexadecimal as apples and oranges can be compared.

http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html

NO! MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN DESTROYED!!1

Well gee, that just makes up for the whole 'destruction of their heritage and murder of their ancestors' completely. :P

certainly not- and those reaping the rewards today likely gave up nothing.

Its just funny how things work out for people, aint it?

The Northwest Passage is no more an international waterway than is the Mississippi river.
Unless you can control an area of water which is does not enter a major landmass against nonviolent intrusion, it is considered to be international waters. An archipelago is a bunch of little landmasses close together. Sorry, no dice.

Oh-I dont. Not after some serious credibilty issues a while back.

I'm still surprised any time he shrieks though.
So he does this often? I have to get popcorn next time.

Irrelevant. Native Americans did not have much of a concept of land 'ownership' in any case.

Yes, they did. That is just a repetition of the "uncivilized savage" myth, which has been debunked a million times. In North America for the most part they did not have what we would consider to be nation-states, and thus the concepts are not exactly parallel, but they definitely had territory they regarded as theirs.

And again, the Americans were 'coming for work', so I guess it was all OK.

Leaving aside the issue of the infectious diseases they carried with them (because that doesn't apply to the present case), I definitely think that if the Americans had come to work, and had left it at that, it would have been immoral for the Native Americans to attack them.

As it was, quite a bit more was done than that.

The Minutemen are not illegal, and have never shot anyone, you criminal-supporting, America-hating liar.

You are very wrong. Over 10 minuteman members have been encarcelated for shooting illegal immigrants. Illegals are not criminals, they are humans like everyone else. If you truly think that the American race is superior to all you are damn wrong. Every human has the right to go wherever they want, this Earth belongs to everyone not to a bunch of money-hungry politicians who don't care about real human rights in order to enrich themselves. After all, everyone here has the same decendants in Africa, why can't everyone be equal? Why the idea of a supreme race if everyone can be as good in anything as they want. Racism should seriously stop, and all this capitalist exploitation to all humans! Why can't everyone just do what they like, feed themselves how they can, without a government to disturb them? When we get to that point, we will never again bother about wars, racism, poverty, enmity, and and social deception. When we finally reach this state is when all of us will live happy. But now, racism and this minuteman aggresion toward illegal immigrants should definitely stop.

Yes, they did. That is just a repetition of the "uncivilized savage" myth, which has been debunked a million times. In North America for the most part they did not have what we would consider to be nation-states, and thus the concepts are not exactly parallel, but they definitely had territory they regarded as theirs.

I'm not saying they were uncivilized, I'm saying their laws would not be compatible (with a few exceptions) with that of a modern nation state today. In any case, I do not recall Native American tribes claiming the entirety of what is now all of the continental United States. More commonly, what you see are the rights to hunt or farm on certain lands rather than outright ownership in many cases. But as I've already said, the entire concept is irrelevant because the 'laws' that regulate national sovereignty were not formally established by any body with international authority for quite some time. As wrong as it was, ex post facto doesn't really apply in this case.



Leaving aside the issue of the infectious diseases they carried with them (because that doesn't apply to the present case), I definitely think that if the Americans had come to work, and had left it at that, it would have been immoral for the Native Americans to attack them.

As it was, quite a bit more was done than that.

As I am aware. That was not quite a serious statement, however. I'm just trying to highlight the idea that few people come to work and only work. Remember, a large reason for all the new outrage against immigrants is not their presence as workers, but their use of taxpayer-funded social services and such.

Over 10 minuteman members have been encarcelated for shooting illegal immigrants. Source? You know they kick Racists out of that group you know. Racism in that group gets you booted at least that's what the report said.

We cannot allow our borders to be so open and unchecked. Forget the loss of jobs, the illegals are re-introducing diseases that we had erradicated in the past (Mexico is a third-world country, after all). There's also the little problem of hostile intrusions, such as drug and slave trafficking, terrorist activities, and foreign espionage.

Oh, and don't you dare compare these illegals to the immigrant ancestors of hard-working Americans. My grandfather waited for ten years on a waiting list. He was checked and screened for lice and diseases at Ellis Island. When he finally made it, he learned English and worked his ass off. He didn't bum off of social services, nor did he demand a Polish version of the National Anthem.

We're a nation of immigrants, not illegal aliens. US law and the words of the Founding Fathers are quite clear on that.

We're a nation of immigrants, not illegal aliens. US law and the words of the Founding Fathers are quite clear on that.
Even though I am not an American, I will say amen to that.

We cannot allow our borders to be so open and unchecked. Forget the loss of jobs, the illegals are re-introducing diseases that we had erradicated in the past (Mexico is a third-world country, after all). There's also the little problem of hostile intrusions, such as drug and slave trafficking, terrorist activities, and foreign espionage.

Oh, and don't you dare compare these illegals to the immigrant ancestors of hard-working Americans. My grandfather waited for ten years on a waiting list. He was checked and screened for lice and diseases at Ellis Island. When he finally made it, he learned English and worked his ass off. He didn't bum off of social services, nor did he demand a Polish version of the National Anthem.

We're a nation of immigrants, not illegal aliens. US law and the words of the Founding Fathers are quite clear on that.



Illegal immigrants are extremely hard working.

Ask anyone who owns a resturaunt, a hotel or a construction firm.

This is clearly "bunch a lazy mexicans" racist nonsense.

Perhaps we should get into the merits of lice-infested Poles?

You are very wrong. Over 10 minuteman members have been encarcelated for shooting illegal immigrants

Source?"


. Illegals are not criminals,

By definition, yes, they are.


they are humans like everyone else. If you truly think that the American race is superior to all you are damn wrong.

Actually, I'm Canadian.


Every human has the right to go wherever they want
No, they don't. Nobody, other than citizens of the United States, has an absolute right to reside in the United States -- and the same for Mexicans in Mexico, Canadians in Canada, and Botswanans in Botswana.

Every human has the right to go wherever they want
What right? What is the basis of this right?

We're a nation of immigrants, not illegal aliens.

of course, essentially all of the immigrant ancestors of the current population would have been 'illegal' if the current laws had been in place at the time.

Illegal immigrants are extremely hard working.


And legal immigrants aren't?

of course, essentially all of the immigrant ancestors of the current population would have been 'illegal' if the current laws had been in place at the time.
Yet they weren't. Now they are.

Yet they weren't. Now they are.

so?

so?
So entering the country in such a fashion is now against its laws. Back then it wasn't, essentially making it a non-issue. Times change, and so do laws.

of course, essentially all of the immigrant ancestors of the current population would have been 'illegal' if the current laws had been in place at the time.
Your whole argument is bs.
Most ancestors came to America legally. Under the laws at the time.
Millions come to America now legally, under the laws we have at this time.
What right does someone have to immigrate into America anyway? None.
How is it fair to those who are trying to immigrate legally to be pushed back in line because of the illegal immigrants and the possibility of amnesty?

Why don't you direct your energies to fix the problems in those countries who can't support their own populace because of corruption/horrible socio-economic policies?

Fix the problem and this whole problem is moot.

So entering the country in such a fashion is now against its laws. Back then it wasn't, essentially making it a non-issue. Times change, and so do laws.

so the merits of the laws are not relevant in the current discussion?

so the merits of the laws are not relevant in the current discussion?
Of course they are. I was addressing the fact that these laws are not retroactive in nature, meaning what is now a crime doesn't make what ancient ancestors did hundreds of years ago one.

Anyways, I am off.

I was addressing the fact that these laws are not retroactive in nature, meaning what is now a crime doesn't make what ancient ancestors did hundreds of years ago one.

sure. but holding that the current laws are right and good and ought be kept (or strengthened!), is essentially holding that they would have been just earlier too. which is equivalent to declaring that pretty much everyone's ancestors ought to have been kept out or have been declared 'illegals'.

By denouncing a band of vigiliantes that want to open fire on Mexican immigrants?


ok,
a page and a half is enough allready!

the minutemen have not shot at anyone..ever..period!

they have also lended aid and comfort to those poor souls half dead in the desert abandoned by their coyotes.
they have given them food and water.

all they have done is report them to the border patrol...nothing more or nothing less.
they have probably saved hundreds of lives by giving aid.

by calling them rednecks and worse..you show yourself to be just as ignorant and closeminded as the idiots that think all illegals are gangbangers...pathetic hypocracy and double standard.

thats why i despise liberals and conservatives alike...blather out stereo types and inflammatory names and talking points to gloss over the lack of facts,to justify your political agenda.
shameless and intellectually dishonest to a degree that startles the shit out of me.

i will never take anyone serious that calls the minutemen, trigger happy rednecks to further their political agenda...because it is not TRUE

same as i will dissmiss anyone that calls illegal immigrants,all gang bangers.

allthough the latter may be more true then the other,both are patently false claims to support an unsupportable position,again to pigeon hole someone who disagrres with you as a "nazi" or a hand wringing liberal commie.

simple solution,
ease legal immigration to allow honest people in need of work in,and shut down the border to prevent illegal entry...not complicated.

by closing the border to illegal crossings,you address the legit claims of the people that are sick and tired of crimminals bouncing back and forth with impugnity to commit crimes and engage in gang related crap,and the droves that trash and vandalise peoples property.
i would get pissed beyond belief of people trashed my property and stole my shit,and vandalised my stuff,when they shouldnt be there to begin with!
i think some of those minutemen and landowners have the patience of god,i would not.

and by easing some of the ridiculous hurdles they have to jump thru to immigrate legally,the honest ones would be allowed in,and the ms-13 types wouldnt.

sometimes i think alot of you america haters want to keep the staus quo,so like a cancer,it will slowly ruin our economy(drain on health services,welfare,the crime associated with the gangs,etc)

so instead of having a rational discussion i see,the minutemen are nazis,rednecks itching to shoot people...with out a scintilla of truth..thereby portraying anyone that disagrees with your(incorrect position)they are easily dismissed as nazis,rednecks,etc.

dirty pool does not come close to addressing my disdain for that kinda of bullshit.
the more i hear that blatant crap...the more out of spite i lean the other way...just like when illegals protest in my country waving their countries flag...and dont drag out the saint pattys day thing...not the same..they immigrated legaly,and it has become an american tradition that is practised by most americans.

the illegals are putting the cart before the horse....assimilate legally,and i'll be going to your cinca de mayo celebration.

rant off!

Fix the problem and this whole problem is moot.
Send the wingnuts back to their sports bars and compounds, then. Problem fixed.

Illegal immigrants are extremely hard working.

Ask anyone who owns a resturaunt, a hotel or a construction firm.

This is clearly "bunch a lazy mexicans" racist nonsense.

Perhaps we should get into the merits of lice-infested Poles?
yes, but they do use government programs and pay no taxes, I'm not for deportation, securing the borders and making thim get citizenship.

Send the wingnuts back to their sports bars and compounds, then. Problem fixed.
Are you purposely being a simpleton? Or are you just that clueless.
The problem is that some countries are so completely screwed that their citizens are forced to risk death and worse to come into this country inorder to feed their family.

You don't care about that do you. You would rather just call names, claim that people who believe in something strongly enough that they are willing to take action about it are just hicks and "wingnuts" that should go back to their "sports bars and compounds".

You are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

people who believe in something strongly enough that they are willing to take action about it are just hicks and "wingnuts" that should go back to their "sports bars and compounds".
Yeah, that about sums it up. Much ado about nothing. One wonders why they bother leaving their sports bars and compounds.

Maybe the fresh air will do them some good, those zealous hick wingnuts.

Illegal immigrants are extremely hard working.

Ask anyone who owns a resturaunt, a hotel or a construction firm.

This is clearly "bunch a lazy mexicans" racist nonsense.

Perhaps we should get into the merits of lice-infested Poles?

Did you actually bother to read what I typed, or did you have that prepared from some sort of booklet? The illegals who work do so with no more ethic than the legal immigrants of the past. A significant number of them wind up in our prisons for crimes not related to their illegal status as well.

Does your hostility and vitriol generate from a dependency on the open borders? Are you an illegal yourself, or do you perhaps run a business that employs them?

And what's with the Polish shot? Might you have a touch of racism yourself?

Did you actually bother to read what I typed, or did you have that prepared from some sort of booklet? The illegals who work do so with no more ethic than the legal immigrants of the past. A significant number of them wind up in our prisons for crimes not related to their illegal status as well.

Does your hostility and vitriol generate from a dependency on the open borders? Are you an illegal yourself, or do you perhaps run a business that employs them?

And what's with the Polish shot? Might you have a touch of racism yourself?


The president of mexico wrote the booklet for me.

I'm actually an immigrant smuggler.

You should read above again if you didnt get the bit about polish people.

Yeah, that about sums it up. Much ado about nothing. One wonders why they bother leaving their sports bars and compounds.

Maybe the fresh air will do them some good, those zealous hick wingnuts.
excuse me, I wasn't aware that aprahending people trespassing your land is zealous, you are however obviously harbor hate for a group because of where they live and that they own over 5 acers and may even get ag exemptions.

excuse me, I wasn't aware that aprahending people trespassing your land is zealous

trespassing on who's land, exactly?

I should hope Keruv, and all the other people arguing open borders, doesn't lock their doors at night. I should hope they leave all their property and ownings open and free for anyone to use. I should hope they offer any immigrants who need a place to stay, food, etc to live with them.

If you want to care for these people, you go do that. The government and I agree that we don't want people coming on our property without our consent. Just because you believe equality is an inherent right, it doesn't mean I do. Equality is great, but only when people choose so. If the majority of people want to give what they have to the needy, then thats what society will do. Its not how our society is.

One last comment: If these people can't feed their families, why the hell are they having them? Anybody should know damn well that if they cant support a family, they shouldn't have one.

The government and I agree that we don't want people coming on our property without our consent.

of course, this has fuck all to do with anything

Illegal immigrants are extremely hard working.

Ask anyone who owns a resturaunt, a hotel or a construction firm.

This is clearly "bunch a lazy mexicans" racist nonsense.

Perhaps we should get into the merits of lice-infested Poles?

As a person that is of Polish descent, I find your comment incredibly racist.

I don't have a problem with legal immigrants from ANY continent, but I have a big problem with illegal immigrants. Most of them don't pay income tax, most don't have health insurance (which ends up costing the rest of us more when they need health services and can't pay for them), and they're exploited by corrupt businesses and corporations. Since the illegal immigrants can't legally have a job here in the US, they frequently get paid substandard wages, have no worker's comp benefits, have no job security, and have little to no room for advancement.

Personally, I'm for relaxing the immigration laws to make it a bit easier to legally immigrate into this country, but I'm also for getting the illegal immigrants out of here.

Exits are at California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.
I find it amusing and quite telling how ignorant racist fuckers only consider the Southern border to be the weak point in the security of the United States.

The softest border in the world is along the American/Canadian border where traffic in illegals is quite high.

The difference.

Canada is not a 'Brown People' country.
Mexico is.

I got news for all you simple minded jethros who are trying to claim that you are not racist by wanting armed gaurds stoping the dirty mexicans from crossing while you ignore the Great Northern Caucasian Gap.

No terrorist tramped through the desert to enter the United States,we let them in, through an Airport.

Your middle eastern illegals travel into Canada not Mexico and then come across the soft border.

Asians come across through Canada the soft border.
Under age girls from South East Asia are smuggled into Canada and then into the US and forced in to prostitution....but it is the Canadian border so who cares.

Heroine floods over the Canadian border...but not Colmbian heroine, Afghani Heroine---Taliban and Al Queada manufactured heroine.

Far as I am concerned if you tramp through the desert and hop a fence and risk some red neck shooting you out in the middle of the desert(dont tell me i have no proof it hasnt happened--jethro has an AR-15 and paco has a water bottle you know those dumb hillbilles are shooting at mexicans middle of desert, no witnesses) you have earned the right to come to my country and get shitty job no one else will do...even though jobs are still so hard to find these Mexicans still find work....ues they work for less.... Iguessthat mean most fucktard legal US citizens onver value their economic viability in the work place.


So fuck all you backwards ass racists fuckers, you are all hypocritical liars until I Johnny Reb Standing along the Northern Maple Syrup Gap keeping vigilant, until then your all nothing but half wit clansmen who lac k the strength of your supposed convictions.

As a person that is of Polish descent, I find your comment incredibly racist.

I don't have a problem with legal immigrants from ANY continent, but I have a big problem with illegal immigrants. Most of them don't pay income tax, most don't have health insurance (which ends up costing the rest of us more when they need health services and can't pay for them), and they're exploited by corrupt businesses and corporations. Since the illegal immigrants can't legally have a job here in the US, they frequently get paid substandard wages, have no worker's comp benefits, have no job security, and have little to no room for advancement.

Personally, I'm for relaxing the immigration laws to make it a bit easier to legally immigrate into this country, but I'm also for getting the illegal immigrants out of here.

No health insurance is product of being illegal--you are an idiot. Approximately 46 million Americans, or 15.7 percent of the population, were without health insurance in 2004 (the latest government data available).
Those are legal US citizens jerk-off, I doubt it has gotten better in the last two years.

As for how they get fucked by the market, well that is the markets fault--not he immigrants fault. That just again demonstrates just how hard these will work for how little.
Dont get me started on income tax, it isnt even legal so put it away.

And in case you were too simple minded to figure this out "Mr. of Polish descent" New Granada, was making comparison to this entire arguement against Mexicans by using an equally absurd slur against Poles--it was intended to be incorrect.


Just how many americans have job security or room for advancement in the current market? What are you, 12?

Immigration is a victimless crime. Robbery is not.

There's a big difference there.

It's interesting you'd mention that since most of the crimes in border states are committed by illegal immigrants.

What is wrong with the people on this forum? Do those of you that oppose the MM project have ANY clue as to what is going on here? Have you seen the piles of garbage these people leave? Do you realize that they do not pay taxes, then use the services provided by those taxes (that working Americans pay)... such as welfare and medicade? Have you bothered to actually READ the Minuteman Pledge? They don't just let anyone join. If you try to join to start trouble, they aren't going to let you in. They also have a STRICT no-contact rule of engagement with suspected illegals. MM volunteers are to AVOID CONTACT AT ALL TIMES. All they do is report suspected illegal movement to border patrol. MM volunteers aren't even allowed rifles.

http://www.minutemanproject.com/default.asp?contentID=2

It might also be interesting for some of you claiming that MM is full of racists to know that there are also border operations along the north. There are also many Mexicans (legal immigrants that pay taxes) in the MMCDC that have joined and currently watch at the south border. For some reason they feel that a nation that took them in and gave them the chance to a better life should have its sovereignty protected.

I should hope Keruv, and all the other people arguing open borders, doesn't lock their doors at night.

Actually, I don't. I also open up my home to people who are in need.

You may want to believe your TV and stereo are more important than people, but you're wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

The people who lock their doors at night and live in fear that some negro may come in and steal their precious eggs are far more a part of the problem than I and my hippie ways will ever be. If I have, then I give. Freely and openly without any sort of test or forms to fill out. I have never once been robbed.

Your attitude is the problem, not mine. If you can't see that, then I pity you.

Actually, given international law alone, and ignoring the UN which has absolutely no bearing on the legality of the situation we could have invaded Iraq at any point after they broke the cease-fire. Ergo it was perfectly legal.
No. This is incorrect, although some parts of your arguement are debatable.

I won't mention it further though, since this is the wrong thread for it.

Send the wingnuts back to their sports bars and compounds, then. Problem fixed.
Unlike the people they're trying to prevent from illegally entering the United States, they've done absolutely nothing wrong.

trespassing on who's land, exactly?
Ranchers, farmers, and other land owners on the border?

I find it amusing and quite telling how ignorant racist fuckers only consider the Southern border to be the weak point in the security of the United States.

Excuse me, I was advising the poster in question that if they dislike living in the United States, they should consider leaving -- and quite frankly, I don't want them coming up to Canada. ;)

Excuse me, I was advising the poster in question that if they dislike living in the United States, they should consider leaving -- and quite frankly, I don't want them coming up to Canada. ;)

You will find that we do not simply leave because we don't like the way things are done. Our law is not carved in stone, decreed by King or God.

It's not "America, love it or leave it." It's "America, love it or change it."

Unlike the people they're trying to prevent from illegally entering the United States, they've done absolutely nothing wrong.

other than take part in an exercise in mainstreaming old rightwing extremist ideas - just where do you think they get all these ideas about border militias and the reconquista?

Ranchers, farmers, and other land owners on the border?

exactly what percentage of land along the border do you think is privately owned?

I wonder how it would be if American tourists chose to ilegally cross the Mexican border into Mexico ? How would that situation play out?
Just cross over, no ID or documents, have a vacation and return to the US when they were done.

I wonder how it would be if American tourists chose to ilegally cross the Mexican border into Mexico ? How would that situation play out?
Just cross over, no ID or documents, have a vacation and return to the US when they were done.

you know what i can't stand? all those people from indiana that just drive right across the border into illinois, no papers, no nothing. they ruin everything.


how would it play out or how ought it play out? cause 'would' has absofuckinglutely nothing what so goddamn ever to do with anything.

trespassing on who's land, exactly?
...is that a serious question? the ranchers who make up the min. men whos property is on or near the border.

exactly what percentage of land along the border do you think is privately owned?
the property may not go to the river/invisable line. but to get in they are trespassing on privet land very soon after crossing the border. when was the last time you were on free land that no one owns? can you tell me any time?

...is that a serious question? the ranchers who make up the min. men whos property is on or near the border.

Every one of them decended from illegal immigrants. That is, unless their grandfathers showed the proper passports to the tribal inhabitants before shooting them as well.

*shrug*

Every one of them decended from illegal immigrants. That is, unless their grandfathers showed the proper passports to the tribal inhabitants before shooting them as well.

*shrug*
that is both raceist and regionalist (no telling if that is a dictionary word but it get the idea across).
you just completely avoided the topic, good job.

Ummmm ... yeah!

"Hey, bro. There's a group of illegal vigilantes hanging around here, here, and here. Might not be a good idea to have your nationals go to those places."

Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care.

The militia men need to be hung by their toes with barbed wire.

Kudos to whoever warns border jumpers as to the movements of these groups. Kudos and many blessings.
Please produce some evidence that the Minutemen have ever shot or in anyway ever reacted violently to an illegal immigrant.

the property may not go to the river/invisable line. but to get in they are trespassing on privet land very soon after crossing the border. when was the last time you were on free land that no one owns? can you tell me any time?

large portions of the west are federal lands. much of the rest are state lands. the last time i was on land that wasn't privately owned was this morning.

What is so outrageous about one government passing on information about its citizens to another government? Should the US government act so as to block all information about the whereabouts and activities of US citizens from leaving the country? If so you're going to need one heck of a big wall.

The "wrong" part comes from the delusion that Mexico is at war with the US and that the illegal (and maybe the legal too) immigration is an "invasion." Thus our government is "consorting with the enemy" and betraying these brave freedom fighting patriots as part of an evil multicultural illuminati plot.

large portions of the west are federal lands. much of the rest are state lands. the last time i was on land that wasn't privately owned was this morning.
then they are...trespassing!. not being a citizen means you are not entitled to be on land owned by...the federal/state gov. or any of the privet land.

large portions of the west are federal lands. much of the rest are state lands. the last time i was on land that wasn't privately owned was this morning.
but it is still owned by the United States and it is illegal for them to be there.

not being a citizen means you are not entitled to be on land owned by...the federal/state gov. or any of the privet land.

no, it doesn't. not in the slightest.

Every one of them decended from illegal immigrants. That is, unless their grandfathers showed the proper passports to the tribal inhabitants before shooting them as well.

*shrug*
Ok, you are being deliberately obtuse. You can't seem to make any sort of argument without distorting half-truths, or telling outright lies.

The minutemen have done nothing wrong or illegal and are infact providing humanitarian comfort to anyone who askes or needs. You can't admit that because that would make your whole racist remarks invalid.

Those who the minutemen have stopped, however, have committed actions that are wrong and illegal. You won't admit that either, because it makes your "feeding their family" argument invalid as well.

privet land.

btw, it's 'private'

The minutemen have done nothing wrong

their entire existence is wrong

The "wrong" part comes from the delusion that Mexico is at war with the US and that the illegal (and maybe the legal too) immigration is an "invasion." Thus our government is "consorting with the enemy" and betraying these brave freedom fighting patriots as part of an evil multicultural illuminati plot.
The minutemen are doing something that the government seems unable or unwilling to do. There is nothing wrong with what they are doing.
What is wrong, is that our government seems to be doing what it can to facilitate criminal activity.

their entire existence is wrong
You mean like militias /min. men made up by law abiding citizens, whose existence is protected by the bill of rights?

As I understand it, the Minutemen are basically a bunch of guys with a lot of free time, sitting around watching illegals cross the border and report them to the authorities.

If that's incorrect, show me a link.

If anything's wrong with that, explain.

their entire existence is wrong
How so? Citizens who are simply notifying authorities about the presence of illegal activity?
You have a very strange idea of what is wrong.
What's next? Neighborhood watch groups banned because their existence is wrong?
Mandatory notification concerning child abuse is struck down because that would interfere with someones passtime?

btw, it's 'private'
That is frivolous, your arguing for the citizenship of people who most likely can't say it in English much less write a similar word by mistake.

The minutemen are doing something that the government seems unable or unwilling to do. There is nothing wrong with what they are doing.
What is wrong, is that our government seems to be doing what it can to facilitate criminal activity.

So you agree that it's an evil illuminati multiculturist plot to out-breed white people in the US with the spawn of demon Mexicans and that the traitorous US government is just a pawn in this diabolical scheme?

As I understand it, the Minutemen are basically a bunch of guys with a lot of free time, sitting around watching illegals cross the border and report them to the authorities.

If that's incorrect, show me a link.

If anything's wrong with that, explain.
oh no its much worse than that, somtimes they go place them under citizens arest.

So you agree that it's an evil illuminati multiculturist plot to out-breed white people in the US with the spawn of demon Mexicans and that the traitorous US government is just a pawn in this diabolical scheme?
More like an activity the Mexican gov has no intention to stop because of all the money they get, and the people who make money by smuggling them in. And the people (to many of who are in the US gov) who hire them illeagally.

You mean like militias /min. men made up by law abiding citizens, whose existence is protected by the bill of rights?

I think he's referrring to vigilantism. Which is quite illegal.

So you agree that it's an evil illuminati multiculturist plot to out-breed white people in the US with the spawn of demon Mexicans and that the traitorous US government is just a pawn in this diabolical scheme?
I agree you are just trying to stir the pot. :rolleyes:
I say again, for the umpteenth time, why aren't you directing your energies toward fixing the real problem? Maybe get countries like Mexico to fix itself so there would be no need for people to risk their lives and the lives of their families to come here?
Immigrating to the US does nothing to solve the root problem. It's like what someone said, a bandaid for a hemophiliac.

That is frivolous, your arguing for the citizenship of people who most likely can't say it in English much less write a similar word by mistake.

Good thing English isn't our official language then, huh? :P

I think he's referrring to vigilantism. Which is quite illegal.
Which hasn't happened, isn't happening and won't happen with regards to the Minutemen.

I think he's referrring to vigilantism. Which is quite illegal.
It is indeed, but this is not the case, they sit on a hill and call the police and somtimes go and place some under citizens arrest. Far from vigilantism.

you know what i can't stand? all those people from indiana that just drive right across the border into illinois, no papers, no nothing. they ruin everything.


how would it play out or how ought it play out? cause 'would' has absofuckinglutely nothing what so goddamn ever to do with anything.


take a deep breath. you may actually have a point.

More like an activity the Mexican gov has no intention to stop because of all the money they get, and the people who make money by smuggling them in. And the people (to many of who are in the US gov) who hire them illeagally.

Aha! You are touching on the REAL villains here:

The employers of these immigrants fear two things most:

1) An end to illegal immigration and
2) legalized immgration.

They WANT illegal immigrants to enter the country. They want it to be difficult, even(and this is the sickening part) dangerous. They want people desperate to work, and with no legal recourse for grievances against their employers. No health benefits, no minimum wage. No labor safety. ANd best of all, no voice.

They don't want immigration(legal or otherwise) to be too easy. Because they like their obedient cheap labor.

I think it's sick that this country, of all the countries in the world, would view immigrants as a 'problem'. We ARE immigrants. This country was founded by immigrants. It was built by immigrants. Immigrants fought for the freedoms we enjoy. Immigrants build our cities and our railroads. Now we manipulate them as a source of cheap obedient disposable labor and blame THEM for their desperation to find a better life.

Excuse me while I wash the bile from my mouth. :mad:

You mean like militias /min. men made up by law abiding citizens, whose existence is protected by the bill of rights?

the existence of nazi groups is also protected by the bill of rights. and it is still wrong that they exist.

the existence of nazi groups is also protected by the bill of rights. and it is still wrong that they exist.
Don't dodge the issue. The Minutemen have done nothing wrong, yet you villify them.
You have issues.

How so?

start reading (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen.html)

Aha! You are touching on the REAL villains here:

The employers of these immigrants fear two things most:

1) An end to illegal immigration and
2) legalized immgration.

They WANT illegal immigrants to enter the country. They want it to be difficult, even(and this is the sickening part) dangerous. They want people desperate to work, and with no legal recourse for grievances against their employers. No health benefits, no minimum wage. No labor safety. ANd best of all, no voice.

They don't want immigration(legal or otherwise) to be too easy. Because they like their obedient cheap labor.

I think it's sick that this country, of all the countries in the world, would view immigrants as a 'problem'. We ARE immigrants. This country was founded by immigrants. It was built by immigrants. Immigrants fought for the freedoms we enjoy. Immigrants build our cities and our railroads. Now we manipulate them as a source of cheap obedient disposable labor and blame THEM for their desperation to find a better life.

Excuse me while I wash the bile from my mouth. :mad:
You almost get it. You had it there for a moment, then you lost it.
This country doesn't have a problem with immigrants.
This country has a problem with illegal immigrants. There is a difference and you know it.
You just choose to ignore that difference.

Civilians will monitor the movement of illegal aliens for the month of April and report them to the Border Patrol. Mr. Bush said after yesterday's continental summit, with Mexican President Vicente Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin at Baylor University, that he finds such actions unacceptable.
"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America," Mr. Bush said at a joint press conference. "I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way."
- G. W. Bush, March 24, 2005

...so I don't know what to think... :confused:

So you agree that it's an evil illuminati multiculturist plot to out-breed white people in the US with the spawn of demon Mexicans and that the traitorous US government is just a pawn in this diabolical scheme?
:eek:
Ixnay aysay anythingway aboutway ethay Illuminatiway Onspiracycay!
Fnord

start reading (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen.html)
BS

BS

Did you even read it? At posting 1 Minute later, I guess not...

You almost get it. You had it there for a moment, then you lost it.
This country doesn't have a problem with immigrants.
This country has a problem with illegal immigrants. There is a difference and you know it.
You just choose to ignore that difference.

No problem then. Let them in legally. :)

edit: Oh, wait. I forgot. Their employers can't have that, can they? *sigh*

Human-rights organizations charge that these militias terrorize people they assume to be undocumented immigrants, violate state laws limiting militia activities and civilian arrests, escalate the potential for violence, and maintain links to racist hate groups.

"People were already being harassed by the Border Patrol, and now things have gotten even worse," says Jennifer Allen of the Tucson-based Border Action Network. Mexican Americans born and raised in the United States, she says, "used to go out hunting or hiking, but they've been dragged out of their tents and harassed to such a degree that they don't go out of the city anymore. And now these vigilantes are out there with the attitude that if you're brown and out in the desert, you must be an undocumented migrant. So even the residents are in danger because the vigilante groups are bringing people in that are racist and hunting for anyone with brown skin."

Border Action Network asserts that some militia members have openly consorted with out-of-state representatives of racist groups. One public meeting in May 2000 was attended not only by such local militia backers as Roger Barnett and Glenn Spencer, but also by two representatives from David Duke's National Organization for European American Rights and members of an Arkansas Klan group.

Questions of racism aside, militia members are reacting to, and contributing to, an already dangerous situation. In the past couple of years, smugglers have become increasingly desperate, aggressive, and in many cases violent. Groups of illegal immigrants have been fired upon -- and people killed -- by drive-by assailants who have never been apprehended. Law-enforcement agencies theorize that the killers are rival smugglers, while human-rights activists speculate that the attackers could be U.S. vigilantes.

John Fife, pastor of Tucson's Southside Presbyterian Church and a leader of the sanctuary movement in the 1980s, has decried the killings, no matter who is responsible for them, as "the culmination of a history of dehumanization and racism and militarism on this border that has gone on for a long time. Too long." Such faith-based groups as Humane Borders and Samaritan Patrol have given humanitarian aid to border crossers in trouble, but they are ill-equipped to contend with such violence—and the potential for more.

Border Action Network, while acknowledging that the border situation has become dangerous and untenable for crossers and residents alike, has been calling, with limited success, for state and federal authorities to take the militias out of play.

See anything?

I agree you are just trying to stir the pot.

Not really. I use arguments that folks who are so vehemently against illegal immigration use. Sure, not all of you guys use them. But enough do.

:rolleyes:
I say again, for the umpteenth time, why aren't you directing your energies toward fixing the real problem? Maybe get countries like Mexico to fix itself so there would be no need for people to risk their lives and the lives of their families to come here?

Neither you nor I are capable of solving Mexico's domestic policies at the moment. In case you haven't noticed, we're having a discussion on an online forum, so amazingly enough my "energies" are engaged in discussing, just like you.


Immigrating to the US does nothing to solve the root problem. It's like what someone said, a bandaid for a hemophiliac.

See, now you show that you ARE against immigration. You're coming up with reasons not to immigrate. How nice for you. But no one who immigrates is trying to "solve the root problem." They want a better life, as Americans. Is that so wrong? Apparently you think it is.

Did you even read it? At posting 1 Minute later, I guess not...
I read it and it's a load of crap. That's not evidence. That's some guy's opinion. Just because he says they're ractist doesn't mean they are. In Los Angeles the fastest growing group of people joining the Minutemen are Hispanic and Black. Hispanics are joining because they resent the fact that they went through all the legal and financial hurtles to come here legally and blacks because they are losing the jobs they used to have or are making much less for doing them.

I read it and it's a load of crap. That's not evidence. That's some guy's opinion. Just because he says they're ractist doesn't mean they are. In Los Angeles the fastest growing group of people joining the Minutemen are Hispanic and Black. Hispanics are joining because they resent the fact that they went through all the legal and financial hurtles to come here legally and blacks because they are losing the jobs they used to have or are making much less for doing them.

That may be (And I'd like evidence of that) but they're still harrassing god knows how many people, including legal immigrants and citizens of the country.

Immigration is a victimless crime. Robbery is not.

There's a big difference there.


i know this is kinda late but... this pissed me off.

http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=17960

Victimless crime eh? had the illegal alien not been here, this man may still be alive.

i know this is kinda late but... this pissed me off.

http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=17960

Victimless crime eh? had the illegal alien not been here, this man may still be alive.

BS. The man could've been a legal immigrant or someone born in the US. Other people than illegal aliens commit crimes as well.

That may be (And I'd like evidence of that) but they're still harrassing god knows how many people, including legal immigrants and citizens of the country.
Evidence, please. I've never seen or heard them harrass anyone. In fact, I remember last April when an illegal immigrant support group accused them of beating up an illegal immigrant. They even had an interview with the guy saying they beat him up. Problem was that they didn't know the entire confrontation was video taped and not only did they not beat him up, they gave him water, food and a blanket while they waited for Border Patrol to show up. The group lied and then told the illegal immigrant to lie.

BS. The man could've been a legal immigrant or someone born in the US. Other people than illegal aliens commit crimes as well.
did you read it? it specifcially said the man who killed the officer was an illegal.

*edit*
just google illegal immigrant kills police officer.... here's another:

An apparent illegal immigrant has been charged with Monday's shooting death of Huntsville police officer Daniel Golden.

illegal immigration, crimes, gangs, laws, security, Americans, another preventable crime

Source: Huntsville Times
Published: Aug 31, 2005
Author: Keith Clines
And i've seen a few articles about drunk driving deaths caused by illegal immigrants.

did you read it? it specifcially said the man who killed the officer was an illegal.

Yes. What I meant was, the killer could have been a natural citizen or a legal immigrant. The cop would've died anyway.

Yes. What I meant was, the killer could have been a natural citizen or a legal immigrant. The cop would've died anyway.
not that night.

Yes. What I meant was, the killer could have been a natural citizen or a legal immigrant. The cop would've died anyway.

Could have been, but wasn't.

Did you even read it? At posting 1 Minute later, I guess not...
Ruby Ridge and Waco are brought up. Do you even know what actually happened at either of those places? Somehow I doubt it.

Not to mention that most of the other 'evidence' is along the lines of so and so attended a meeting. Of course, as I've noted before, if you're going to paint with that wide a brush than the left is fully in cahoots with various muslim terrorist organizations, as well as the black bloc and La Raza.

BS. Other people than illegal aliens commit crimes as well.
of course they do... however, illegal alien crime is preventable if the aliens aren't here.

See, now you show that you ARE against immigration. You're coming up with reasons not to immigrate. How nice for you. But no one who immigrates is trying to "solve the root problem." They want a better life, as Americans. Is that so wrong? Apparently you think it is.
Nope, try again. I am not against immigration. I didn't even come close to saying anything about being against immigration. I said immigration doesn't solve the root problem.
I am against a country that, because of rampant corruption creates a situation that a portion of it's citizens are forced to risk their lives inorder to feed their families. But looking at it this way doesn't let you trash the minuteman. Sheesh, what was I thinking :rolleyes:

Did you even read it? At posting 1 Minute later, I guess not...
I read enough of it to realize it was an opinion piece.

How again is this evidence of anything except evidence of that person's bigotry?

No health insurance is product of being illegal--you are an idiot. Approximately 46 million Americans, or 15.7 percent of the population, were without health insurance in 2004 (the latest government data available).
Those are legal US citizens jerk-off, I doubt it has gotten better in the last two years.

As for how they get fucked by the market, well that is the markets fault--not he immigrants fault. That just again demonstrates just how hard these will work for how little.
Dont get me started on income tax, it isnt even legal so put it away.

And in case you were too simple minded to figure this out "Mr. of Polish descent" New Granada, was making comparison to this entire arguement against Mexicans by using an equally absurd slur against Poles--it was intended to be incorrect.


Just how many americans have job security or room for advancement in the current market? What are you, 12?

Nice personal attacks. :rolleyes:

I didn't say that illegal immigrants are the only ones without health benefits. I just stated that because of their illegal status, they can't get health benefits, which means the rest of us need to foot the bill for any essential health services they can't afford (that they can't be denied).

I agree that it's the market's fault that the illegal immigrants are exploited, but allowing more illegal immigrants into the country isn't the answer. Changing the immigration laws so that it's easier for people to legally come here is the answer. Then they are eligible to benefit from our labor laws.

Feel free to state why you think the income tax is illegal.

I understood the comparison New Granada was making (after all, I'm not a simple minded idiot or a jerk-off, like you claim I am). It doesn't make it less of a racist comment, however.

Finally, citizens typically have more job security than illegal immigrants, simply because citizens of the US have legal recourse against unfair termination. Citizens typically also have more job advancement than illegal immigrants because there's more options and services available to them. BTW, you're not even close on my age.

Feel free to state why you think the income tax is illegal.

It's not illegal, but it's still theft. What's worse, from a revenue and overall economic standpoint, it's a highly inefficient and unbalanced form of theft.

Nope, try again. I am not against immigration. I didn't even come close to saying anything about being against immigration. I said immigration doesn't solve the root problem.

It seems that you were arguing that Mexicans shouldn't immigrate since it doesn't solve the problems of their homeland. By that reasoning no one should have immigrated to the New World and instead reformed those old European nations.

I think you're against immigration and just don't want to come out and say it.


I am against a country that, because of rampant corruption creates a situation that a portion of it's citizens are forced to risk their lives inorder to feed their families. But looking at it this way doesn't let you trash the minuteman. Sheesh, what was I thinking :rolleyes:

No, actually I can trash the minutemen even if I too am against Mexican government corruption. The minutemen are (for example) a bunch of hypocritical redneck jock douchebags who think they are defending the nation and take their name arrogantly from people who actually did.

It's not illegal, but it's still theft. What's worse, from a revenue and overall economic standpoint, it's a highly inefficient and unbalanced form of theft.
Which is why the Laffer Curve states that the optimal tax rate is 80 percent.

Which is why the Laffer Curve states that the optimal tax rate is 80 percent.
No, no it doesn't. A single study theorizes that the optimal rate would be 80%. Laffer himself points at places with flat tax rates of under 35%. Pecorino argued that the peak was at 65%. Shall I continue?

The story being floated out there is that the US government tipped off the Mexican government on the whereabouts of the Minutemen on the US border with Mexico. If this is true this is outrageous. Also I heard on a news program from that the Minutemen organizers have been spied on by Mexican spies. I know this sounds a bit out there. This is what they are saying. So what to make of this. This would be a serious issue if it were in fact true.

http://wizbangblog.com/2006/05/09/us-border-control-gives-minutemen-locations-to-mexican-government.php

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3799653


Official Minuteman Site.
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/
This is outragous. They took my job and are trying to make me speak spanish. They need to be stopped and I salute the minutemen.

This is outragous. They took my job and are trying to make me speak spanish. They need to be stopped and I salute the minutemen.
Okay, I didn't use to think you were a troll, but that was WAY too cartoonish to be sincere.

Ruby Ridge and Waco are brought up. Do you even know what actually happened at either of those places? Somehow I doubt it.

Not to mention that most of the other 'evidence' is along the lines of so and so attended a meeting. Of course, as I've noted before, if you're going to paint with that wide a brush than the left is fully in cahoots with various muslim terrorist organizations, as well as the black bloc and La Raza.

Of course. I'm just an ignorant European who has never studied US History or looked at a newscast. Our news looks at more than the US, you know.

Ruby Ridge and Waco are both hotgrounds for conspiracy theories really. I think the Feds screwed up bigtime at Waco, but then again I don't think the Davidians were angels with halos ringing their heads, either. As to Ruby Ridge...complete cock up on both sides really.

Okay, I didn't use to think you were a troll, but that was WAY too cartoonish to be sincere.

I like UNA. He's a great comedian.

This is outragous. They took my job and are trying to make me speak spanish. They need to be stopped and I salute the minutemen.
your job? i thought you were still in school...

your job? i thought you were still in school...
I am but I also used to do landscaping to help pay for it. Then they found an illegal who would do it for cheaper.

I am but I also used to do landscaping to help pay for it. Then they found an illegal who would do it for cheaper.

So why didn't you just underbid the illegal?

No, no it doesn't. A single study theorizes that the optimal rate would be 80%. Laffer himself points at places with flat tax rates of under 35%. Pecorino argued that the peak was at 65%. Shall I continue?
Considering that your statement implied that the optimal tax rate was 0%, do continue. It'll save me the trouble of destroying your argument.

Okay, I didn't use to think you were a troll, but that was WAY too cartoonish to be sincere.
I was being sincere. Dont you remember how you felt when the towers fell? By letting people into the country, you asking for another 9/11. Have you forgotten or something?

I am but I also used to do landscaping to help pay for it. Then they found an illegal who would do it for cheaper.
Since when are 12 year olds allowed to work?

I was being sincere. Dont you remember how you felt when the towers fell? By letting people into the country, you asking for another 9/11. Have you forgotten or something?

Heh...

Since when are 12 year olds allowed to work?

Wouldn't that make him illegal? Oh, the irony...

I was being sincere. Dont you remember how you felt when the towers fell? By letting people into the country, you asking for another 9/11. Have you forgotten or something?
Note that all of them were here legally.

Considering that your statement implied that the optimal tax rate was 0%, do continue. It'll save me the trouble of destroying your argument.
Wrong. There is a difference between tax rate and income tax rate. Sales tax, especially sales tax adjusted for basic living necessities, is a much more efficient system, not to mention the fact that it's much harder to do an end run around.

So why didn't you just underbid the illegal?
I dont know, why dont you overbid the illegal? I mean I have stanards you know. I just trying to live the American dream and everyone is trying to make me live the Mexican dream, which isn't much of a dream.

Note that all of them were here legally.
Yeah, just imagine what they could do if they were here illegally

I dont know, why dont you overbid the illegal? I mean I have stanards you know. I just trying to live the American dream and everyone is trying to make me live the Mexican dream, which isn't much of a dream.

How can you work if you're 12? Nobody execpt those who hire illegals would let you work. Thus, you are an illegal yourself.


I await your brain to explode in on itself or you to start screaming about 'Liberals'

Yeah, just imagine what they could do if they were here illegally

Nothing. They wouldn't be able to attent pilot's school. :p

Since when are 12 year olds allowed to work?
i actually used to mow lawns at that age for 2.30 an hour.

How can you work if you're 12? Nobody execpt those who hire illegals would let you work. Thus, you are an illegal yourself.


I await your brain to explode in on itself or you to start screaming about 'Liberals'
Im not 12, much older actually. And it is the liberals fault, they seem to think America was built on immigrants, when it wasnt. It was built and founded by hardworking Americans.

Im not 12, much older actually. And it is the liberals fault, they seem to think America was built on immigrants, when it wasnt. It was built and founded by hardworking Americans.

Ahhh, so 'Liberals' then. I was hoping for something more original really. Maybe calling me 'Unpatriotic' or using a history reference. You need to do some more fresh material, or people will leave you. There are other promising trolls out there to entertain us.

Wrong. There is a difference between tax rate and income tax rate. Sales tax, especially sales tax adjusted for basic living necessities, is a much more efficient system, not to mention the fact that it's much harder to do an end run around.
And the Laffer Curve deals with income tax, not sales tax. That's why a 100% tax rate on the curve equals zero revenue.

Im not 12, much older actually. And it is the liberals fault, they seem to think America was built on immigrants, when it wasnt. It was built and founded by hardworking Americans.
Which is why the Founding Fathers all either came from England or were descended from people who came from England.

Which is why the Founding Fathers all either came from England or were descended from people who came from England.
Yeah, and then there were all those other immigrants who came along as well, from all over Europe and Asia, not to mention the immigrants who came here under a bit of duress.

Yeah, and then there were all those other immigrants who came along as well, from all over Europe and Asia, not to mention the immigrants who came here under a bit of duress.
They don't matter to UNA, remember?

Im not 12, much older actually. And it is the liberals fault, they seem to think America was built on immigrants, when it wasnt. It was built and founded by hardworking Americans.

*cough* You do realize that, unless you're 100% Amerind, your ancestors came from somewhere else?

Note that all of them were here legally.
All but two. In anycase, I guess if they were here legally that means that no one who wants to harm the US would exploit our lack of border security to enter. Thy would probably just say, "Most of the 9/11 hijackers were in the US legally so we should not just walk over the southern border even though that would be the easiest way."

All but two. In anycase, I guess if they were here legally that means that no one who wants to harm the US would exploit our lack of border security to enter. Thy would probably just say, "Most of the 9/11 hijackers were in the US legally so we should not just walk over the southern border even though that would be the easiest way."
Wow, you missed my point so hard even I'm feeling it.

Wow, you missed my point so hard even I'm feeling it.
Seems like yoru point was that we shouldn't crack down on our borders because most of the 9/11 hijackers came here legally.

Im not 12, much older actually. And it is the liberals fault, they seem to think America was built on immigrants, when it wasnt. It was built and founded by hardworking Americans.
then why do you come off so young?

*cough* You do realize that, unless you're 100% Amerind, your ancestors came from somewhere else?
The so called "Native" Americans came from Asia during the Ice age.... They aren't Native.

The so called "Native" Americans came from Asia during the Ice age.... They aren't Native.

Perhaps not, but they were still here before the Europeans. And if you want to go back far enough, we're all Africans. :p

Seems like yoru point was that we shouldn't crack down on our borders because most of the 9/11 hijackers came here legally.
No, my point was that UNA claimed the 9/11 hijackers were illegal immigrants, and that his claim was false.

The story being floated out there is that the US government tipped off the Mexican government on the whereabouts of the Minutemen on the US border with Mexico. If this is true this is outrageous.

The Minutemen are an illegal organisation, or are at least frowned upon by the US Government, aren't they?

The Minutemen are an illegal organisation, or are at least frowned upon by the US Government, aren't they?

No they are not illegal. The Border Patrol work alongside the MM regularly although Bush has made some negative comments to cater to the hispanic vote.

So you agree that it's a crime to find work - by whatever means possible - to feed your kids?

You hate children and hate everything American.
Do the Minutemen actually shot people? If so, then individual members could be charged with murder, and the organisation be put under surveillance.

Or ... do you believe "I was just following orders" should have been a good defense for Nazi soldiers?
Hello Godwin!

Hellos,

Umm...are you kidding?!?!:eek: :eek: :eek:
A people who love this country, use the educational system, the health care, the police, the military, the courts, the welfare...but who will not get Citizenship, and help put money in it like the LEGAL immigrants do. Rasing tax = rising prices for those who ARE Native-Born, or Nationalized.

this is okay with you?

At the same time, the State Militias, Either National Guard, or CIDG, stands with binoc's, GPS, and wireless phone at the border,voluntarily, in 100-140*F dry heat (summer is coming), letting the Border Patrol know of incoming illegals.

Freeing up that many Border Patrol for other jobs, or more likely, other streches of the border. Working along side the LEO's.

Personally, I believe in privacy of the Citizen. As for someone trying to be covert as they cross the border/as for a people invading this country, FRACK NO!!!

we should be like Europe; only permit a certain number of people in every year on a 1st come, 1st served basis...and once again have the Immigration test ONLY in English.

Please reconsider,
I am not bashing you, but i see a little more then you do. I am showing you what i see. Not insulting you for not being able to see it too, but teaching.:fluffle:
-Rafe

Ummmm ... yeah!
There's a group of illegal vigilantes hanging around here, here, and here. Might not be a good idea to have your nationals go to those places."
Maybe you don't mind innocent men and women being shot just for looking for a way to feed their kids, but the rest of us do care.
The militia men need to be hung by their toes with barbed wire.
Kudos to whoever warns border jumpers as to the movements of these groups. Kudos and many blessings.

Exits are at California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.
If you're familiar with Keruvalia's posts, you'll find that he loves Texas, not America!

As soon as you can stop our subs going through that area you can claim it. Oh that's right, you can't. So sorry.
You are a hypocrite. Just because Mexicans can get into America illegally, you think they should?

Actually, given international law alone, and ignoring the UN which has absolutely no bearing on the legality of the situation we could have invaded Iraq at any point after they broke the cease-fire. Ergo it was perfectly legal.
You're such a USA-supremacist/exceptionalist.

I read it and it's a load of crap. That's not evidence. That's some guy's opinion. Just because he says they're ractist doesn't mean they are.

you didn't read it

Yes, they did. That is just a repetition of the "uncivilized savage" myth, which has been debunked a million times. In North America for the most part they did not have what we would consider to be nation-states, and thus the concepts are not exactly parallel, but they definitely had territory they regarded as theirs.
Naive American nations were real, but I think he means that they didn't have a concept of individual private property ownership.

you didn't read it
Yes I did.

i agree somewhat. they have a right to come here. was not america founded by immigrants? even teh native americans were immigrants. but i have a problem with who they are and what they are bringing with them. they could terrorists or they could be bringing in drugs. those are just some.

The Minutemen are not illegal, and have never shot anyone, you criminal-supporting, America-hating liar.

Listen you uneducated loser, America was built on the BACKS OF IMMIGRANTS, our entire history begins with IMMIGRANTS from Europe coming here to make a new and better life for themselves. Anyone who is ANTI-IMMIGRATION is ANTI-AMERICAN and completely ignorant.

These retarded yokels who think it is their "right" to patrol the borders are nothing more than intolerant rednecks. :upyours: :upyours:

These retarded yokels who think it is their "right" to patrol the borders are nothing more than intolerant rednecks. :upyours: :upyours:


Your not intolerant of redneck yokels now are you? :eek:

Listen you uneducated loser, America was built on the BACKS OF IMMIGRANTS, our entire history begins with IMMIGRANTS from Europe coming here to make a new and better life for themselves. Anyone who is ANTI-IMMIGRATION is ANTI-AMERICAN and completely ignorant.

These retarded yokels who think it is their "right" to patrol the borders are nothing more than intolerant rednecks. :upyours: :upyours:
As far as I know the Minutemen have never said anything that would lead me to believe that they have any problem with immigration. Seems to me they have a problem with illegal immigration. They're not blocking access to the INS, right? Anyone can feel absolutely free to apply for legal immigration status and then even citizenship without fear of ever seeing a Minutemen member.

As far as I know the Minutemen have never said anything that would lead me to believe that they have any problem with immigration.

you should really try reading the series of articles i linked to before, instead of just waving your hand at them as being 'opinion'.

this one (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen_14.html) has some relevant info, for example.

Your not intolerant of redneck yokels now are you? :eek:

I am intolerant of ignorance, stupidity and racism.

you should really try reading the series of articles i linked to before, instead of just waving your hand at them as being 'opinion'.

this one (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen_14.html) has some relevant info, for example.
More compete bullshit.

For example:

The old Simcox said of Mexicans and Central American immigrants, "They have no problem slitting your throat and taking your money or selling drugs to your kids or raping your daughter and they are evil people." The new Simcox said he sympathizes with their plight, and sees them as victims of their own government's failed policies.


Can you show me the source? I'm sure he was specifically talking about illegal immigrants and to deny that there is a large contingent of criminals and gang members in teh illegal immigrant population is naive at best. This guy stakes a phrase:
"They have no problem slitting your throat and taking your money or selling drugs to your kids or raping your daughter and they are evil people." And says it was in regards to Mexicans and Central Americans. Where's teh whole quote? Where's teh question or interview it was a part of? No where in the sentance that is published does Simcox mention Mexicans or Central Americans so I have no reason to believe that it was in that context.

More:

"It's a public safety issue because 30 percent of crimes are committed by aliens," said Simcox, who cites no source for the statistic. "There's an explosion of vicious gangs with no respect for human life that target us because of soft laws."I don't know about teh crime stat, but accoding to the LA Times, I read it but can't find the article, illegal immigrants make up 30% of teh LA jail population. This may have been what he was referring to. Again, though, I see no mention of race and am sure he was speaking specifically about illegal immigrants.

more:

While Gilchrist is newly prominent on the anti-immigration front — he recently joined the California Coalition for Immigration Reform, a hate group whose leader routinely describes Mexicans as "savages" — Simcox has been active since 2002, when he founded Civil Homeland Defense, a Tombstone-based vigilante militia that he brags has captured more than 5,000 Mexicans and Central Americans who entered the country without visas. Bullshit. Imma call a BIG bullshit on this one. He routinely referrs to Mexicans as "savage?" I want to see the whole, direct quote. If it were true he would have posted it. I sure would have. This guy takes what they say about illegal immigrants, substitutes the word "Mexican" and then calls them racist. No where on that whole page is there a single quote from any of these guys where they say anything racist. He just takes quotes and posts them completely out of context.

More:

Court records obtained by the Center's Intelligence Project show Simcox's second ex-wife, Kim Dunbar, filed an emergency appeal in September 2001 to obtain full custody of their teenage son because she feared that Simcox had suffered a mental breakdown and was dangerous.
Ever been through a divorce and custody battle? 'Nuff said.

This is not in anyway a valid source for information about the Minutemen. I do not accept anything from this blog as in anyway being valid at all.

Anyone can feel absolutely free to apply for legal immigration status and then even citizenship without fear of ever seeing a Minutemen member.

This is quite easy for you to say, especially if you have never been through the immigration process. It can be tiresome, beurocratic, discriminatory and downright racist. It can take years. It can take your entire life savings. Depending on what country you are applying from, it can be futile. So you can understand why somepeople are desperate enough to come across illegaly and then take a chance once they are inside.

This is quite easy for you to say, especially if you have never been through the immigration process. It can be tiresome, beurocratic, discriminatory and downright racist. It can take years. It can take your entire life savings. Depending on what country you are applying from, it can be futile. So you can understand why somepeople are desperate enough to come across illegaly and then take a chance once they are inside.
The US has some of the most liberal immigration laws in the world. In anycase, I am for streamlining the process and making it easier. Hell, I think we shoudl have employment offices in every major Mexican city, I just don't think we should have a wide open border. If people want to come here to work and eventually become citizens, great. But we should know who they are and we shoudl know something about their backgrounds, both medical and criminal. What we have now is chaos.

The US Government just lost another few points of my approval. Long live the Minutemen: America's only defense!

The US Government just lost another few points of my approval. Long live the Minutemen: America's only defense!

Ah, right. "Defense" against the "invasion" of Mexican workers. HOOAH.

Just another pathetic sign of the times when people like you actually see immigration as an attack. I blame it on the fact that America has never REALLY been invaded, so people like you have no real concept of what an invasion is.